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Monday, April 09, 2007
Dinesh D'Souza :: Townhall.com Columnist
It's the Culture, Stupid
by Dinesh D'Souza
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Anti-Americanism comes in different varieties. Speak to Europeans who dislike the United States, and they point to what they see as the evils of conservative America: a shoot-first, ask-questions-later cowboy in the White House, Bible-toting fundamentalists walking around the corridors of power. Speak to Muslims who are hostile to America, however, and the typical complaint is very different. Many Muslims point to what they view as the horrors of liberal America: homosexual marriage, family breakdown, and a popular culture that is trivial, materialistic, vulgar, and in many cases morally repulsive. So while many secular Europeans abhor "red America," many religious Muslims dislike and fear "blue America."

Both the Europeans and the Muslims, of course, are only seeing one side of America. They are reacting not so much to "America" as to projections of American policy and American culture across the globe. We in the U.S. know that there is a difference between American popular culture and the way that Americans actually live. But foreigners cannot be expected to know this. The America that they see in the movies and on television is often the only America they know.

We have heard a great deal from critics of globalization about how the United States is corrupting the world with its multinational corporations and its trade practices. But world opinion surveys by the Pew Research Center and other groups show that non-Western peoples are generally pleased with American products. In fact, the people of Asia, Africa, and the Middle East want more American companies, more American technology, and more free trade. Their objection is not to McDonalds or Microsoft but to America's cultural values as transmitted through movies, television and music.

Huge majorities of more than 80 percent of people in Indonesia, Uganda, Kenya, Senegal, Egypt, and Turkey say they want to protect their values from foreign assault. The Pew study concludes that there is a "widespread sense" that American values, often presented as the values of modernity itself, "represent a major threat to people's traditional way of life." These sentiments are felt very keenly in the Muslim world. As an Iranian from Neishapour told journalist Afshin Molavi, "People say we want freedom. You know what these foreign-inspired people want? They want the freedom to gamble and drink and bring vice to our Muslim land. This is the kind of freedom they want."

Muslim critics of American culture are quick to concede its fascination and attraction, especially to the young. Some time ago I saw an interview with a Muslim sheikh on television. The interviewer told the sheikh, "I find it curious and hypocritical that you are so anti-American, considering that two of your sons are living and studying in America." The sheikh replied, "But this is not hypocritical at all. I concede that American culture is appealing. If you put a young man into a hotel room and give him dozens of pornography tapes, he is likely to find those appealing as well. What America appeals to is everything that is low and disgusting in human nature."

There seems to be a growing belief in traditional cultures that America is materially prosperous but culturally decadent. It is technologically sophisticated but morally depraved. As former Pakistani prime minister Benazir Bhutto puts it, "Within the Muslim world, there is a reaction against the sexual overtones that come across in American mass culture. America is viewed through this prism as an immoral society." In his book The Crisis of Islam, Bernard Lewis rehearses what he calls the "standard litany of American offenses recited in the lands of Islam" and ends with this one: "Yet the most powerful accusation of all is the degeneracy and debauchery of the American way of life."

As these observations suggest, the main source of Muslim rage is not American foreign policy but American popular culture as it is projected around the world.

One reason the Muslims focus their anger on America is that it is American culture—not Swedish culture or French culture—that is finding its way into every nook and cranny of Islamic society.

There is a cultural blowback against America that is coming from all the traditional cultures of Africa, South America, the Middle East, and Asia. This resistance is summed up in a slogan often used by Singapore's former prime minister Lee Kuan Yew: "Modernization without Westernization." What this means is that traditional cultures want prosperity and technology, but they don't want the values of American culture. The Islamic radicals are the most extreme and politically-mobilized segment of this global resistance, and they are recruiting innumerable ordinary Muslims to their proclaimed jihad against the values represented by America.

Islamic radicals have been remarkably successful in convincing traditional Muslims that America represents a serious threat to the Islamic religion. Bin Laden in one of his videos said that Islam faces the greatest threat it has faced since Muhammad. How could he possibly think this? Not because of U.S. troops in Saudi Arabia. Not even because of Israel. The threat Bin Laden is referring to is an infiltration of American values and mores into the life of Muslims, transforming their society and destroying their religious beliefs.

Even the term "Great Satan," so commonly used to denounce America in the Muslim world, is better understood when we recall that in the traditional understanding, shared by Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, Satan is not a conqueror; he is a tempter. In one of its best-known verses, the Koran describes Satan as "the insidious one who whispers into the hearts of men."

So what should America do about this? I'm not suggesting that we change our way of life to appease the mullahs. But I do think we should show Muslims, and traditional people around the world, the other America that they often don't see on TV and in the movies. The Bush administration must do more to highlight the presence, and values, of conservative and religious America. Moreover, we must do what we can to export this America to the rest of the world. This would undercut Bin Laden's accusation that the United States is an anti-religious, immoral society. While we can't change the minds of the Islamic radicals, we can diminish their appeal to traditional Muslims.

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About The Author
Dinesh D'Souza's new book Life After Death: The Evidence is published by Regnery.
 
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Freedom
I understand why these "traditionalists" feel threatened. And they should feel threatened. Freedom is what has allowed America and the West to prosper and produce all those things that everyone wants. You just can't get to one without the other--and as Russia and China have discovered it isn't possible to have economic freedom without the people eventually demanding other kinds as well. After all, why should they have choices about jobs and consumer goods but no choice of religion or politics.

But freedom, like everything else, can and will be abused. People will abuse it to steal and kill, and even produce pornography and bad movies. Worst of all, people will use their freedom to choose to disbelieve the things they were taught by thier parents, teachers, politicians, and religious leaders. People will choose to do things that "God" says are wrong and claim that they have the freedom to do so, and even that they have the right to not be discriminated against becase of their choices.

This is what threatens the Islamists and other traditional socital leaders--and it should. But our choice is to supress our own freedoms to comform to them or to be proud of what we have built, even if it has flaws.

Who Cares?
Since when do we, as Americans, care what other people think of us? Since when has it stopped us from living our version of the American dream? Why is it that we have to walk on eggshells for other countries??? If they don't like our way of life, they don't have to live it. If they don't like what they see in the movies or on television, they don't have to watch. Their religion teaches them different values than what most Americans live by, right? Well, they can stick to their religion and not send their children here for free education and they can stick by their religion and not watch movies made here...and they can stick by their religion and not have jobs handed to them by the outsourcing of jobs from America...etc. etc. etc.

A_Lady
Enjoyed your post.

You Dad "was appalled by the "hippy" lifestyle and the promotion of "free love", drugs, etc

Good for him...because we're still struggling with the hippy dippy legacy. It's very hard to bring up children now-a-days. They're exposed to the adult issues too soon and it harms them psychologically.

The media effects their self-esteem. American society is now very materialistic, shallow and people are concern about immediate individual needs.

Do as you please attitude has harmed our society too. We can't discipline our students in school anymore. Middle School students haven't even memorized their multiplication tables yet while students in the Middle East have their Koran memorized by heart!

There is no sense on community anymore in the United States because we have become so secularized. We're not allowed to proud of anything it seems.


Back when I was growing up my Dad did not like the hippies either. He called them "freaking smelly long hair bums!" He did not like the free-love, drugs and rock n' roll. My family were quite old fashioned New Englanders.

When the city dwellers started moving into our area we saw our world changing. We lived in small town which included religion and community. The city dwellers snubbed the whole affair as being quaint and being too Victorian. Everyone had to loosen up and get over their hang ups which started with the Bible. It's natural to sin so why bother keeping standards.

We did not approve how the city slickers were living. My mother would get really upset if saw girls acting promiscuous and the parents giving the daughter birth pills to prevent pregnancy. No big deal about abortions either. The stigma of having children out of wedlock was becoming less shameful as years went by. My Mother and Father really thought the sexual revolution during late 60's and early 70's was going to destroy the family.



My Mother didn't go on a religion rant like Molly Hatchet but she would warned me about sexual transmitted diseases that could ruin my health and harm my ability to produce children. She told the same story to my brother. We did not value the hippy lifestyle in our home. We belived in traditional family values even if my father did not want to go to church every Sunday.

Being brought up in that environment was a blessing. I did not like the dating scene because I was so fussy. I did not have eHarmony.com when I was courting my husband to be back in the 1980's.

My husband and I have been married for twenty years. We have two children nearly grown. We brought them up in a very traditional home life with rules and boundaries. I quit my job so I could be a stay at home mom. It was the best decision I made for my children.

So far, so good. Knock on wood.

I think what Mr. D'Souza is doing is a great service for humanity.

He's starting a dialogue so people can start talking and thinking. But we have hate-mongers on both sides who want to keep people divided and keep the distrust intact. If we had a chance to know each other and start talking; we will find out we have the same feelings about our quality of life.

I'm not going back to my Quaker roots soon but I do however understand how the world community has a low tolerance for Hollywood Globalization with too much deviant sex, vulgarity and violence.

I don't let my children watch or listen to garbage. It's not okay. Not everyone is doing it and it does matter to live a decent life. I'm sure people around the world have the same attitudes. Traditionalist can become very protective when it comes to families.







Tom Sawyer and the Deist nonsense
Yes it is fashionable to say that the founders of our Republic were predominantly Deist. Most were in fact Protestant Christians. As for me, I hold to the Orthodox Christian faith.
Get ready to 'deal' with Islam.
They have nothing but contempt for your sloppy indifferent notions about God.
Since the Protestants were divided on Church dogmatics, they did go for a very Generic sort of Constitution, but sadly the modern liberals have re defined religion to the attic for grandma, "as long as she doesn't make too much noise".
As for whatever the 'founders' really felt on this topic, It is clear from the Word of God, that we are to Preach the saving Gospel of Christ our True God to all mankind.
Islam is not accomodating to that and will seek to impose their perfidious laws here in America.
Ecumenism is a disease of the Protestants, not of the Muslims, who at least know better than to water down their dogmas for the praise of men.


Tom Sawyer and the Deist nonsense
Yes it is fashionable to say that the founders of our Republic were predominantly Deist. Most were in fact Protestant Christians. As for me, I hold to the Orthodox Christian faith.
Get ready to 'deal' with Islam.
They have nothing but contempt for your sloppy indifferent notions about God.
Since the Protestants were divided on Church dogmatics, they did go for a very Generic sort of Constitution, but sadly the modern liberals have re defined religion to the attic for grandma, "as long as she doesn't make too much noise.
And as for what the 'founders' really felt on this topic, It is clear from the Word of God, that we are to Preach the saving Gospel of Christ our True God to all mankind.
Islam is not accomodating to that and will seek to impose their perfidious laws here in America.
Ecuminism is a disease of the Protestants, not of the Muslims, who at least know better than to water down their dogmas for the praise of men.


Ignorance Is Bliss
It's obvious because there are some very hateful things being said here about Muslims, Islam and God. The gentleman earlier who said that Muslims worship a "false god"... I really do feel sorry for you and I hope your children do not pick up your ignorant ways.

Islam is an Abrahamic religion. We believe in one GOD. The same God that Christians and Jews believe in. Instead of saying God, most say Allah (Arabic for God). Other's say God in whatever language they're speaking at the time.

I truly applaud all of you who encourage some of these ignorant/racist/prejudice people to actually befriend a Muslim. Again, we ARE HUMAN BEINGS. Just because there are some ignorant things done in the name of Islam, it doesn't mean we all believe this. It's like all non-Christians thinking that ALL Christians come from the same school of thought as the KKK. It is appalling how some people here are attacking the author. He's providing you with information, he's not telling you that you're going to Hell for not being a Muslim... but some of you are condemning him for bringing a very VALID point to your attention.

He is RIGHT, Muslims in the Middle East do not hate America; they’re against the Western way of living (as defined by the clerics and the media there). Granted, not all Muslims in the Middle East agree with this either. The clerics condemn sexual promiscuity, nudity, homosexuality, etc (just like the Pope). They've used America as the face for this condemnation. The ones that don't necessarily agree with the clerics, are from the same school of thought that I am from... yes this way of living is the path to Hell, but there's no reason to blame America for it! There are plenty of Muslims living in the United States that believe that these actions are the path to Hell, but they just teach their children difference between right & wrong. Just like many Christian and Jewish families do. I have plenty of Christian and Jewish friends in the US who were married in their mid-20's and were still virgins. The big difference is that in the case of many Muslim countries, there is NO separation between Church & State. So these things are condemned publicly... in the US, you'll see/hear condemning of this lifestyle in Churches and Synagogues.

My father first came to the US in 1969, my mother was pregnant with my oldest sister at the time and they had a young son. He came here with his greencard and his medical degree to find a job and prepare a home for the rest of our family to move to. He was in Los Angeles at the time. After a few months of living, working, and paying taxes here... he and my mother decided that this was not the place for them to raise their children. He was appalled by the "hippy" lifestyle and the promotion of "free love", drugs, etc. At the time, Iran was not ruled by religion and was fairly modern. They thought why would they move to an area polluted with disgusting people who don't bathe and have no self respect… when back home they had plenty of freedoms, had very fashionable clothes and people didn't flaunt their sexuality in front of little children.

The reason we moved back here in 80's was because my uncles who had been living here for decades assured my parents that the "hippy" lifestyle was no longer prevalent in the US and that there was a huge group of Americans who still have the core religious values (they were referring to the Republican Party and their positions on morality who were in the White House at the time).

Even though this author may not provoke some of the close minded people here to educate themselves and befriend an average Muslim, at least some of the average readers have gained another insight into this culture. Tolerance doesn’t occur over night, but some of us need to remember some of the hate/ignorant thoughts that plague American history (i.e. concentration camps for Japanese, KKK, slavery, Salem Witch Trials, etc) and avoid reverting to those schools of thought when dealing with the average Muslim. You shouldn’t compare a Muslim in the Middle East, with a Muslim in America… in those countries, they are not blessed with the Freedoms that we have in the U.S. and are not exposed to the real resources needed to fully understand the American culture. We HAVE the resources to educate ourselves on Islamic culture… though some people rather make assumptions instead of educating themselves.

Get an inkling
The Constition was written in a deist way. Providence is not mutualy exclusive. There is no mention of a God's name in the Constitution or the Pledge. People can parse words all they like, but the Founders religious beliefs died with them, luckily they didn't require us to abide by them in writing the Foundation of our Nation, the Constitution. Atheists, Muslims, Buhdists, and even Satanists are welcome. The author's point is correct. It is the Culture.
If Muslims hate the bad stuff in our society and so do the right wing Christians, why don't they all get together and wipe out the Europeans and the counter culture? The only moral difference they have is the name they call their god.
Separation of Church and State, thank you founding fathers and thank god.

Jerabaub, Change is slow....be patient.
jerabaub writes: Tuesday, April, 10, 2007 6:33 PM
muslim governments
Lisa has a point.

Just look at all the democracies and non- dictatorial governments among muslim nations.

Enough to make your head spin.

Cough.


Gee...jerabaub.

Europe at one time had their share of theological monarchies but we had our Reformations and Enlightenments because we wanted progress.

At one time the Church controlled every aspect of daily life but people broke away from that and started looking for human rights.

Are you saying all Muslims are incapable of distiquishing between a theocracy, dictatorships, communism or democracy?

Do you really think they're just concerned about their pray rug and praying to Mecca 24/7?

I'm sure many concerned about economic growth in their country so they can provide for their families. We shouldn't sterotype people.

We all know many Muslim countries do have dictatorships and monarchies but some are being progressive and experimenting with social reforms.
However change is slow because your dealing with a populace who are very conservative religiously and set in their ways.

Change is slow...be patient.

Here's example....

The First Lady of Egypt is trying to abolish this practice.
http://www.arabicnews.com/ansub/Daily/Day/030623/2003062316.html

Righteous indignation?
Americans abroad are defined by a media video myth. Not much we can do to stop it. Holly weird is our spokesman and pr agent to the world and seems they like to eat from the gutter or the movies and entertainment would not be getting overseas anyway.
No one culture defines an 'American'.
We live in a sort of cultural anarchy with a slight tolerance towards Christians, getting less and less tolerant as time goes by.
Islam is a false religion and it hardly matters if we 'offend' the false believers.
Our nation was founded primarily by a Christian people and it is a legitimate and valid heritage. Islam is not valid nor is it legitimate.
The lives and behaviours of these people speak volumes.
Who is doing all the terrorism and who has a tradition of coercive conversion at sword point?
Should we get put on a guilt trip because some Muslim picks up a hollywood porn film and gets upset?
Perhaps the option of multiple wives ought to be enough distraction for these righteous infidels?

Jesus Christ, our True God is risen from the Dead.
Mohhammed lies a mouldering in his grave.

The Eastern Orthodox Church has a long history of struggle with Islam and there are many martyrs to the cause of Allah.

I would encourage all to read the book, "Martyrs of the Turkish Yoke".

http://www.roca.org/OA/23/23h.htm

it's the foreign policy, stupid
D'Souza is a moron. Studies consistently show that people around the world support the same values that we do (democracy and human rights), and American movies account for 85% of the worldwide box office revenues on an annual basis. It's not the values, and it's not the culture (despite what the French may claim).

The real issue underlying anti-Americanism in both Europe and the Middle East is political and stems specifically from the vast gap between our values and our actions. Despite all of our lofty rhetoric, we do very little to advance democracy and human rights (though we have on occasion in the past). We're therefore (accurately) viewed as an arrogant, selfish, hypocritical hyperpower.

As long as myopic, jingoistic, psuedo-intellectual pundits keep obscuring the truth, our standing in the world will continue to decline and our international problems will continue to increase.

Nice job protecting the country you claim to adore, genius.

"better to be pissed off than pissed on"
Another way to state this: "Don't Tread on Me." However, I hope we can all realize that when we converse with each other, either as neighbors or countrymen (and women), we need to show some restraint and even a bit of respect for the other person's right to have a completely different viewpoint.
It's interesting that of you seem to ignore what you claim as your own principles, as was pointed out by one of us "posters" who pointed out some interesting history of the Conservative Movement. Many of you, and I'm in the same boat, could stand a refresher course on history, as I realized this morning when I discussed the Korean War with my middle school age son. I better be humble about what I know, and not get pissed off when someone disagrees, because maybe they know more than I do and base their opinion on that (which doesn't necessarily make them right).
Now for the "false god, false prophet, false religion thing." Come on, dude. Where is that at? Most religions have their own ax to grind, don't they? The Jews believe Jesus was a false prophet and certainly no god, Christians believe the Jews rejected Jesus and thus The Truth, and that Muhammed was a false prophet and a crazyman to boot, and on and on. And people of the world's religions, with the exception of maybe Quakers and Buddhists are ready and willing to kill "non-believers." Though Muslims have a special name they use for non-believers, their animosity towards those outside their faith is not a unique feature of Islam.
I hope I have encouraged some (of us) hotheads to tone it down. It gets the point across better and more convincingly.

ecumenical hypocrisy

inkling revival:

Your rebuttal to garageman and Gestell is very interesting, especially the info about the religious backgrounds of the Founding Fathers. However, I feel you might have misunderstood some of their remarks. I understood their claim of Christians' tacit approval of Muslims' "suppression of impiety" to mean that both religious groups share a disdain for Hollywood-inspired decadence, and hope for a restoration of virtue in their respective societies. I did not take it to mean that Christians approved of brutality in Muslim lands. G & G might have overstated things a bit, but you did the same thing by accusing them of stepping over the line into Klan-like bigotry.

You make excellent points, inkling, about the distinction between liberty and license. It's regrettably necessary to reinvent that wheel with every generation, lest Britney Spearism proliferate as a "lifestyle." God only knows how her kids will turn out, but it's probably going to take a fortune's worth of nannies, tutors, shrinks, rehab joints and Swiss private schools to raise 'em. When ordinary girls with ordinary means choose the floozy life, cost overruns usually cripple the effort early on.

It's difficult for a lot of religious people to reconcile faith with real-world considerations. Many religions become too dogmatic, oversimplify and get mulish about issues that have little to do with leading a virtuous life. Although it hasn't come up on this thread, the campaign by some Christians against the theory of evolution is an example where "suppression of impiety" takes such a high priority that it careens off into irrationality.

No matter what they say, people behave as if the account of Creation in the Book of Genesis was only a metaphor rather than a factual account of the natural history of our planet. It's very difficult to look at a map of the Atlantic Ocean without noticing that Africa and South America are shaped like parts of a puzzle. Geologists can literally "piece together" when they were attached and how they separated, but the most credible time line is enormous; it didn't take six days followed by a day of rest.

Devout Christians pump petroleum into their cars and drive to the Grand Canyon. Using fossil fuels and gawking at mile deep erosion that is demonstrably hundreds of millions of years old are irreconciliable with the dogma that the world is only 6,000 years old. Believers are offended that the Book of Genesis might not be mathematically accurate, but why? How does it detract from the grandeur and mystery of creation to suggest that instead of being a weekend chore for an omnipotent deity, our world may be billions of years old, that it has been changing all that time, that mountains have risen and worn away, that dinosaurs have appeared and disappeared, that our ancestors once walked on all fours and that the future is unknown, but probably just as full of surprises?

When you look into the night sky and imagine that millions of other stars and galaxies might have exciting stories, too, and maybe we're not so special -- doesn't that make creation seem even MORE grand?

I feel that it's "impieties" such as these -- not just the gyrating abdomens of pop singers -- that G & G might have been referring to.


On to Apollo Speaks and the "source of Muslim rage." I feel your post is very insightful. It reminds me of a Mad Magazine comic strip from many years ago:

In one panel a hulking, schoolyard bully is taunting a nerd by saying, "My father's bigger than your father. My father can beat up your father!"

The nerd replies quietly, "My father makes more money than your father," and walks away.

The bully bursts into tears and runs away to complain to a teacher, "HE doesn't fight fair!"

Yes, Muslims may FEEL superior, but they don't encourage freedom of thought. Without freedom of thought, people are stuck in the Dark Ages. Peoples who practice freedom of thought get ahead, which infuriates the obscurantists. In effect, this has meant that brain has been gradually replacing brawn over the long run and that rationality has certain practical advantages over faith unleavened by facts. It comes back to a Biblical prophecy made by Jesus, with a slight reinterpretation by yours truly.
"Blessed are the geeks, for they shall inherit the earth."

It's Not Either / Or
The assumption seems to be that because of radical Islam's hatred of American-style freedom, there could be no condemnation of the culture. The more radical elements are able to leverage moderate Muslim contempt due to the cultural swill that is put forth. After all, as a Christian father, it is my chief complaint of what I need to beat back in order to fight the moral divide between what is spoken from the pulpit and what will shape them at home. It is so pervasive and ingrained that it is promoted virtually uncontested from the classroom. As someone dedicated to decency and my family's welfare, I resent it.

The radicals, of course, will use anything to gin up support from indoctrination to consorting with liberal democrats, but the war over the soul of the nation will persist even if and when these radical Muslims are put down. Not only does ignoring this create unnecessary animous, but it alienates those who could be more active allies in the fight.

ONTIME

What exactly is DEPOTISM ? Is that when you store all your belongings in a warehouse?

And can you turn off your caps lock?

T Tom Sawyer
"It never mentions that the Constitution was written in a deist way."

I'm sorry to hear that you've swallowed the misinformation of the atheists in the history department.

Read any of the documents of our founders: the Declaration of Independence, Washington's 2nd Inaugural Address, whatever. Note the frequent appearance of the word "Providence," used as a substitute for "God."

The concept of "Providence" is that God is constantly active in the affairs of men. If you're reading for content, you'll note that that's precisely what they were talking about whenever they used the word.

Deism is the belief that God created the world, then stepped away from it and left it in our hands. Deism's central belief is that God is NOT active in the affairs of men.

"Providence" and "deism" are opposites. They are mutually exclusive. If the founders had been deists, they would never have used the word "Providence."

Jefferson was a radical unitarian, and disbelieved the miracles in the gospels; but he was not within 100 million miles of being a Deist. Washington was a standard Episcopalian, not a Deist. Madison was trained by Rev Witherspoon at Princeton, he was (I think) Presbyterian, and no Deist. Franklin was a lapsed Congregationalist, and toyed with Deism briefly in his youth, but he was no Deist. The Adames were all hard-core Congregationalists, not Deists.

The only non-Christian in the bunch was Thomas Paine, and he wasn't a Deist, he was an atheist.

I don't know where this foolish notion of the founders being Deists came from, but it's completely wrong.

Gestell, on Lewis
Lewis would have been the first to acknowledge that certain types of impiety are universal, and universally wrong.

There are matters of style, which are unimportant; and then, there are matters of principle, which are essential.

If you're not capable of distinguishing between them, or if you imagine (as you seem to) that all differences are matters of style, then I want you to keep your kids at least 18,000 miles away from mine, because they'll be even more dangerous than you.

Gestell, garageman
Your ignorance has crossed the line into bigotry, and with bigotry, into lies.

"True they are not Muslims, but they admire their brutal suppression of impiety. If only jihad could be retrofitted toward Christian and Jewish ends, they imply, we could restore virtue to America, as it once had been."

This is simply defamatory. I've been Christian for 30+ years, and have never ONCE seen an instance of a Christian who would approve, even for a millisecond, the brutal suppression of impiety in Muslim countries.

You're spreading the sort of ignorance we used to hear from the Klan boys. I suggest you spend a few months actually getting to know a few of the people you're defaming; if you have a shred of intellectual honesty, you'll be back here in a few months, apologizing.

You also seem completely ignorant of the difference between liberty, which is the right to do as one's conscience requires, and license, which is the right to do what one's flesh desires. They are not the same. There isn't a single one of the founders of our nation -- not Jefferson, not Paine, not Madison, and CERTAINLY not Sam Adams -- who would have the slightest qualm about shutting Springer Break down. That's not the liberty they had in mind -- and if you've read even a SHRED of their writings, you know it.

Yup
To listen to the ceaseless bickering amongst those who consider themselves closest to god is much like watching a snake eat its own tail.

The original article brings up a lot of utopian principles of the various religions in question. It never mentions that the Constitution was written in a deist way.
That's why we have Muslim Chaplains.
A good person is a good person, no matter their faith.
Any ideas on when they're gonna dig that moat on the southern border?

C.S. Lewis on a related topic
In "Mere Christianity," C.S. Lewis says that a women in Elizabethan times could and generally did speak in a way that would have been regarded as hopelessly immoral in Victorian times. His point was that such things are not of ultimate importance for Christianity, although many Christians imagine they are.

Also, remember "Screwtape Proposes a Toast" in which Screwtape serves the finest wine to his fellow devils, made by putting all those Christian groups together who imagine that their little differences about worship styles and points of doctrine guaranteed their salvation.

muslim governments
Lisa has a point.

Just look at all the democracies and non- dictatorial governments among muslim nations.

Enough to make your head spin.

Cough.

L66ONLINE@MSN.COM
IF BEING A MUSLIM IS AS STUFFY, DEMANDING AND REEKS OF DEPOTISM, THEN THEY CAN KEEP IT AT HOME AND STOP TRYING TO SELL THAT SMELL AROUND THE WORLD.

THEY WANT WHAT FREEDOM OFFERS WITHOUT GIVING IT TO ANYONE ELSE, SOUND LIKE LIBS TO ME. DO AS I SAY OR THE ALGORE SYNDROME. TIRADES AND THREATS, HOSTILITY AND SUICIDE. OOOOOWEEE IS THIS COUCH TIME OR WHAT?

Alizoom
Who wants their daughters act like Britney Spears and Anna Nicole?

Is that freedom for your daughter?

Hollywood Globalization offends traditional Muslims world wide. Having a bad lifestyle is not a freedom to some cultures. Some prefer to keep those bad lifestyles hidden and not shown with pride like the Americans.

You and I know all Westerners don't act like those Hollywood types. I wouldn't let my daughter act like a spoiled sl@t.

But the Radical Muslims have convinced the Moderate Muslims that our way of life is endangering their family values and must fight to death.

Its just like some arrogant Americans saying all Muslims are terrorist and beat their women. They are so uncultured they can't handle any form of government except a theocracy or dictatorships.

We all know that's not true.



America is changing!
What is accepted today is different from what was accepted in the past. The general direction of change is towards more permissiveness. This can only be due to a change in the understanding of moral acceptability. Can what is moral change? There must be an absolute moral acceptability at some point or there is no god.

Who sets the moral limit? Of course, it is God. A believer in God cooperates with God in developing his moral understanding. As his moral understanding grows stronger the acceptability of things changes. For example, if a person really liked to drink and get drunk he would not see a moral problem. But, if he started to cooperate with God in developing his moral understanding he would see that drinking to excess is harmful both to him and to others.

If we never attempt to develop our moral understanding then we will not see a problem with a general trend toward more permissiveness.

It's cultural alright
It's possible that a few of the jihadists have been conned into thinking that they're fighting to preserve their pure culture from western depravity. Maybe some of those very young women who've blown themselves up. In that case, I'm sure our hollywood products provided very good tools for the brainwashing curriculum.
On the other hand, many of the ones doing the brainwashing fully indulge in said depravity when they travel abroad: they are fairly well known in Europe for a mastery of perversion that would make most westerners blush. I believe it's also been documented that some of those pious 9/11 hijackers did not spend their last evening on the prayer rug!
So Dinesh, I think maybe it's cultural alright, but not exactly the way you've put it. Isn't THEIR fear that their chattel will be freed of the tyrannical hold they're under? They can be perverts, but they want their women straight, covered, and pure. And a taste of our culture would definitely threaten that!


DYERGE: very good post.

Take a closer look, conservatives
The impulse to "ecumenical jihad" is a very deep one in conservatism. Garageman and alizoom are onto something. While many conservativs give a pass to their own moral bottom-feeders, they dream of Prof. Kreeft's "ecumenical jihad" being launched against American popular culture. They're articulating a venerable conservative premise: that individual liberty should be subject to moral limits that are set by religion and traditional moral beliefs. Now that sounds really cool until you take a closer look:
Freedom of speech? Well, a lot of that just has to go--I mean, you can't just let people say what they want, because a lot of them will say something that's wrong.
Freedom of choice? Golly, there's just no telling what people will choose to do with their lives if they're allowed to do so. Some of them will choose ways of life that violate traditional morality, so we better have some good regulations here. I mean, some folks will decide to become liberals and maybe some will wear skimpy swim suits. [Burkhas will solve this problem once and for all!]
While some of this may sound silly, there is a serioius issue here that very, very few conservatives even recognize nowadays: conservative emerged as a reaction against modern ideas of individuality and individual freedom. Historically and philosophically, this is not subject to debate.This is why EVERY new, radical idea--votes for women, equality for blacks, workers' rights to form labor unions, rock and roll, and more was OPPOSED by conservatives. [I can even cite you an example of an American conservative who had unkind things to say about majorettes in marching bands!] People who don't know this are poorly-educated. conservatives have to figure out how they're going to deal with this legacy. Just ignoring it won't help.

Now that Islamists are ripping us baout our moral decay, conservatives will be tempted to join people like D'Souza to call for clamping down on our society. I'm pleased to see that at least some TH readers aren't falling for D'Souza's repressive nonsense.

What's "Blue" America, Mr.D'Souza?
"Many Muslims point to what they view as the horrors of liberal America: homosexual marriage, family breakdown, and a popular culture that is trivial, materialistic, vulgar, and in many cases morally repulsive."

Would it be Ted Haggard spending days on end in hotel rooms snorting Crystal Meth with his male prostitute?

Would it be country singer Sarah Evan's filing for dicorce against her Republican operative husband for his adultery and pornography addiction? Child bride Jessica Simpson's quickie (after she profited with a TV show on the intimate details) divorced and half-nude body splayed out on everything she can license? Or maybe Btiney Spears - druggie, hookin' a man who already was two kids in the hole with a fiancee, and then no panties and shaving her head to boot? Both red-staters and avowed Republicans.

Or would it be Mr. down-home, demented conservative Don Imus and his "ho'and nappy-head throwin' assumptions at female student athletes who wre simlpy doing what they were supposed to do?

Umm, Duke Cunnigham - who stole everything not nailed to the floor.

"He who is not guilty of sin, then let him cast the first stone".

Amazing how you conservative blowhards put on blinders when it comes to your friends and allies. And if Muslims were so anti-Hollywood, then why did they attack America's financial center and not Hollywood or San Francisco?

Its the Religion stupid
Why is this apologist for Wahhibism still working for TownHall?

Islam hates Americans because we refuse to submit to their false prophet, their false religion and their false god.

Islam isn't about freedom, its about submission.

The whole "culture" discussion is a dodge. The Muslim Brotherhood has been using that feckless excuse to stir up hatred of the West for years.

Face it, Dinesh D'Souza is a puppet of Islamofacism. People should ignor him. Townhall should fire him.

No ecumenical jihad here, thank you
Peter Kreeft, a detestable professor at Boston College, a few years ago called for "ecumenical jihad." Though he (like D'Souza) is Catholic, his affinity with Islamic radicals had a rhyme and reason: People of different religious orthodoxies should unite to overthrow our supposedly "decadent" culture, a product of the rationalist heresy anyway, don't you know.

Dinesh D'Souza, and those posting here who second his views, are much in this vein. They denounce "Hollywood" (without of course mentioning any movies specifically --and even if they did mention them, they would wind up distorting the context) and other venues of cultural "decay." True they are not Muslims, but they admire their brutal suppression of impiety. If only jihad could be retrofitted toward Christian and Jewish ends, they imply, we could restore virtue to America, as it once had been.

I reiterate, then, my own posting here. I despise ecumencial jihad, and the sort of authoritarianism it would impose upon our culture. They are not "protecting families," but rather enhancing their own corrupt notions of virtue, snuffing out random acts of sponteneity. Their highly selective use of information reveals only their ignorance and thuggery. As a conservative, I vow to fight these fundamentalists, and without apology.

JoJo
http://www.showhistory.com/Hairy.html#paragraph

Is this you?

I'm assuming since you're of the school that thinks unless you're a drug dealer you can't speak against dealing drugs, and unless you've got HIV-AIDS you can't condemn people for doing the two things that will give you AIDS, you're either a Muslim living in a Muslim Country -- or JoJo the Dogfaced Boy.

Or you could simply be a college student who lives in his mother's basement.

There's Islam
...and then there's popular culture in Islamic nations (as well as traditionalist nations with a lot of Muslims, like India).

Whether it's watching Thai-made pornography in hotel rooms, or visiting Dubai on weekends to "marry" Filipina prostitutes for 24 hours, or keeping up with some of the silliest (and most crass) indigenous soap operas ever made, or viewing shari'a beheadings on TV, or absorbing "news" that attributes everything that happens anywhere to a conspiracy of bloody-fanged, child-eating Zionist pig Jews, the Islamic cultures of the Eastern hemisphere are doin' it for themselves.

I guess we in the West could take the blame for inventing moving pictures.

The male traveler in a foreign land has broad opportunities to investigate the vulgar, materialistic, and morally reprehensible virtually wherever he goes, including the vast majority of the Islamic world. People are people.

The Saudis who impose draconian shari'a at home use the other Persian Gulf nations as their toilet bowl (a phrase I heard over and over from the Arabs who lived and worked in those nations themselves). The Taliban in Afghanistan, and the GIA in Algeria, on the other hand, shot men on street corners for smoking, and 13-year-old girls for not being properly covered. Their citizens had no relief valve.

A number of Muslims have been able to do what many in the West can do: see past the red herrings of popular culture to the reality of average people's lives -- AND of the positive aspects of Western culture. I don't mistake the arrogant shari'a-evasion of some Saudi businessmen for a representation of, say, a Bahraini rug-dealer's ordinary life, or the spiritual aspirations of Muslims. And there are Muslims who can appreciate the converse, when it comes to Americans or Europeans, Canadians or Australians.

D'Souza might consider a key difference between Islam and Christianity. Islam blames the infidel (not to mention all women) for introducing temptation, and says temptation -- the problem -- must be eliminated. This accords well with a natural trend in human thinking, which is that the conditions around us are what need to change.

Christianity, however, says that temptations are inevitable and are not to be blamed on others. That path is useless as well as invalid. We should endeavor not to be vehicles of temptation ourselves -- but temptation can't be eliminated, and punishing or attacking other people for presenting it is the worst possible course.

The antidote to temptation is being transformed by the Spirit of God, so that even though temptation remains, we are not undone by it. It's not our conditions and circumstances that need to change, but OURSELVES.

No matter what the West does, Islam is pre-programmed to blame us, as a giant cesspool of infidels, for whatever its problems are. Our focus should be on meeting Muslims with grace, not on catering to a negative, self-reinforcing supposition about fault and blame.

Gestell
Nice post and well reasoned...well stated.

Now, don't let that go to your head.

They don't like it either?
"What this means is that traditional cultures want prosperity and technology, but they don't want the values of American culture."

And neither do most Americans.

Thanks for the referral

I'm off to the library momentarily, and I'll look for a copy of Roger Scruton's book. I enjoy opining as much as the next guy, but it's always nice to have a few scholarly facts as well.

Thanks for the tip, Gestell.

We should be aware...
WE should be aware of the strong possibility that our war in Iraq will lead to yet another radical Islamic state with sharia imposed on its population, and not Bush's fantasy of a stable Western-style democracy. I have been reading and teaching about Islamic political philosophy for nearly 40 years now, and I am convinced that there is virtually no basis in Islam and the culture it has created (and the history of the Islamic world) for the support of such a democracy. Unfortunately, Bush and many conservatives have forgotten what used to be a clear conservative principle: history matters.

What we think of as obvious and good--namely, a form of government which, regardless of its imperfections, has done more to advance individual freedom and human well-being both for its own citizens and the world at large than any other government in human history, had very specific historical roots. Those roots include a society radically unlike any that evolved in the Islamic world. Once more, I urge you to read Roger Scruton's book, "The West and the Rest," where some of the most important of these differences are explained clearly and correctly.

We should not expect post-Saddam Iraq to blossom into a regime which respects individual liberties, encourages tolerance for religious diversity, allows political criticism, and the like. The society on which that government was based doesn't have those values, period.

Bush and company, to what should be the utter horror of conservatives (the fact that they're not horrified is another topic), are thinking like the French Revolutionary intellectuals, who believed that a republican form of government could be transplanted anywhere and would work just fine. Edmund Burke understood and criticized their faith and arrogance, but few conservatives see the same thing in their president. Too bad. It might have saved a lot of American lives.

No Shangrila
Lived in Morocco for three years and you bet that have their vices. Women take part in the special brownies and the men smoke the hashish. As for prostitution, you betcha. The only thing I will say is that they handed out justice a heck of a lot faster than us. For example, a thief had his offending hand cut off within days of the offense. This was done in a public square and was carried over local radio & TV. There is something to be said about that. So, no, they do not have a vice free perfect way of life.

11th hotel
You have a point, in a strange way. Perhaps the other Iraqis, those not part of the anti-U.S. demonstrations, are afraid to come out on the street and protest, for fear of being killed?

After all, absent a photo-op of John McCain surrounded by blackhawk helicopters and hundreds of U.S. snipers protecting his small entourage as he declared Baghdad neighborhoods to be free of violence, it just is not all that safe.

I think you should read the article on Washington Times online about extremists forcing women to hide under their scarves. This is happening in "liberated" Iraq, "democratic" Iraq. It was not happening under Saddam. And no, I am not saying Saddam was a saint. He was a brutal thug and should have been removed.

I just don't buy the Bush administration assessment that once Saddam was removed, the natural inclination of Iraqis would be to embrace democracy and pluralism. In fact, after Saddam, Iraqis are more fundamentalist, not less.

Christians are increasingly being persecuted in post-Saddam Iraq, as they also are in a "democratic" Lebanon.

Disagree with Dinesh
I doubt very much that militant Islam would hate America any less if there were no gays, lesbians, porn stars, druggies, adulterers, perverts, sloths, embezzlers, thieves, liars, or crooks.

Dinesh is fooled by the presence of so many in this country who believe that virtue is its own reward. These people are satisfied within themselves with their own virtue and thus feel no need to impose their brand of virtue on others or force others to 'convert'.

The Islamic extremist is not content with his own virtue. He is compelled to either convert or oppress all others.

To an Islamist it is just as 'immoral' to be a Christian as it is to be a crook or a pervert.

You go first, Mr. Islamofascist
The way I see it, America hating Europeans and Islamofascists have made their mind up and we're the devil. It's laughable that they construst their view on America from our movies and TV shows. It all stems from their elitist mentality. These clueless Europeans and Islamfascists believe in the elite intellectual few governing/controlling the masses. Although, this country is all too quickly becoming an Administrative/welfare state as well, a good number of us believe in the individual, in personal responsibility and in freedom of choice. The human being is constantly evolving. Granted, I don't partake in gambling and excesses of any kind, I don't begrude the people who do. It's their journey, their choice and their life. Europeans have traded in their own cultural identity for creeping Sharia law. Islamofascists are simply barbaric and their unenlightened treatment of women is only the start of what is horribly wrong with them. So, you go first Mr. Islamofascist, you go fix the problems in your society. At least in America, we're trying... What's your excuse?

Americanism
is adherence to the Constitution. It does not equate to pledging allegiance to any political party or administration.

Who gets what?
I think the author does get an important part of this, and some of you don't. No problem, this is not a simple equation. To make things worse, there is more than one answer. Why wouldn't that make sense? Think of the things in life you do like. Your wife, your kids, your dog, your car, etc.. There's a list of reasons you like/love them. OK, so what about things you don't like or actually hate? Same deal, right? Isn't it interesting that at least some of the features of our society that "conservative Christians" (and for that matter, orthodox Jews) find distasteful (and even destructive?)and would eliminate if they could, are those very same features the author points to as being a focus of many devout Muslims. Now let's face something else: we do export this stuff, in magazines, on television, etc.. And by "this stuff" I mean the endless, consistent and persistent emphasis on sex
I recall receiving a catalogue for girl's clothing in the mail, aimed at my daughter's age group. She was pre-teen or early teens at the time. Not only were the outfits a bit too skimpy (saving $$ on fabric?)but you had to see the poses on these kids. Straight out of Slutsville!! When my daughter began wearing the "style of the day" no doubt inspired by Britteny you-know-who or Beyonce or whoever, with the waistline far South of belly-button land, I was told by daughter and my ex that "they don't make pants for kids the way I'm used to", and besides "that's what all the kids are wearing." So for every kid dressed like a "star" who flouts not just her body but her morals for all the world to see, there is a parent or two who allows it, and, sadly, quite a few who even encourage it.
Now, does this justify 9/11? Of course not. But we better look real hard at who we are, what we are, and what we do and how far we are willing to allow things to go. Because you know what? We don't need a bloodthirsty enemy to tear apart the fabic of our society; e can do a pretty good job of it on our own.
As I said to my daughter, what if famous Miss Britteny decides to wear no pants next year? Let's friggin figure out who we're following here and do a bit of responsible, morality based leading! And PS: even though I don't really have a vote, but do express my opinion, daughter didn't get the "belly ring" (even though the mother...40-something...did(!!)...temporarily) and daughter, now in college, dresses a bit more modestly. Change comes one person at a time.

Tolerance is the problem
We are being forced to be tolerant of all things deviant. At the same time that we are being forced to be tolerant of all liberties the values expressed by devout and morally based Christians are attacked. A Christian preacher is threatened if he explains the moral problem with being a practicing homosexual. Christian based businesses are being forced to provide goods and services that are against their moral teachings such as abortion and birth control pills. The time is coming when the only freedom you will have is the freedom to be deviant and immoral. If you demonstrate morality you will be accused of being intolerant and subject to re-education or imprisonment.

The only salvation for our countries lies in Christians coming together, putting aside theological arguments that separate us and focusing on the basic things we agree on. The ten commandments and our belief in the one God. When Christians do this we can take back the control of our country without involving governmental laws that do nothing but bolster the power of government. Who needs more laws when God has given us His law?

Christians unite or prepare to suffer greatly!

grab them by the throat
What D'Souza doesn't get is that the only way to have peace with islamists is from a position of strength, just like any other bully.

The old saying "you are either at their throats or at their feet" is true about moslems. I don't know about the rest of you but, given this choice, I say grab them by the throat and smash them so hard they are afraid to ever try their baloney again.

Anti-Americanism
"Anti-Americanism comes in different varieties."

There is, for instance, D'Souza's variety. Carry on.

jarabaub
Thousands in the street is what % of 26 million?

Do the math before you speak aye?

11h

Get this
"So while many secular Europeans abhor "red America," many religious Muslims dislike and fear "blue America."

But the muslims still want to cut all your heads off! You may survive if you enter into servitude of one form or another.

Is this guy an apologist idiot or what? Maybe it is just me.

11h

On to something

Gestell:

I think you may be on to something here. H.L. Mencken, I think it was, observed that a Puritan is someone with a morbid fear that somewhere, someone may be having fun. In this light, Islam is the Mother of all Puritanism.

It's demonstrably true that not everybody everywhere wants to submit to God's will; in the decadent, materialistic West, not even Mammon's. When they're free to do so, an unconscionable number of people lift their noses from the grindstone long enough to sing, dance, pause for a few laughs.

In a world where nobody was having any fun, all religious strife might miraculously disappear.

one more level of analysis
Here's a refinement of my take on D'Douza. What better way for conservatives to try to get the American population to follow their moral doctrines than to start saying that Muslims will hate us unless we do just that! There are conservatives who have a covert admiration for the moral clarity of Islam, who respect (even if they find it hard to articulate) a people and a religion where there is no room for any doubt about the right way for people to live. If you doubt this, consider: the American conservative Russell Kirk was (temporarily) fond of the Ayatollah Khomeni's regime in Iran shortly after it came to power because he knew that Islam is really good at handling those problems that Western conservatives deal with: cultural decline, feminism, gays, and more.

So, if we become more like them in terms of moral regulation, then we will be better off. Conservatism emerged, after all, as a reaction against what were regarded as the excesses of individual freedom and political change. I ask conservatives readers to think about this point.
Don't a lot of you really, really want some way to shut down all of the sources of the cultural and moral decline you see around you? If you could change women's fashions, silence hip-hop, suppress gays, make people stop doing drugs, bring back Perry Como records, and more, would you turn down the chance? If you could do it by means of laws and the coercive force of government--and be supported by most Americans in doing so--wouldn't you be tempted to try it? Just a little bit tempted, maybe?

It's their culture, stupid.
If the answer to socalled radical Islam is to promote and even install democracy in the muslim world, then the Bush doctrine may be in for a shock.

Read today's headlines on Drudge, Washington Times on-line, etc., and ponder the fact that tens of thousands of Iraqis, on whom we made such horrific sacrifices, want us out...and soon. They don't want us to "finish the job", however defined by the administration this week. To them, we are "occupiers". The longer we stay, the worse it will get.

Read the Washington Times article, "Extremists Force Women To Hide Under Head Scarves", in today's on-line edition. It is the democratically elected Iraqi government that is forcing women to adopt more conservative attire, retreating from modernity and toward a more repressive(or normal)Islamic status.

I agree with many here, but not with D'Souza, who assert the West and its values did not cause the radicalism inherent in Islam. Islam itself is responsible for that.

This is "culture"?

Muslims appalled by Western "decadence" portrayed in popular entertainments and some of the posters appalled by what is shown on television might consider the old cliche: It's only a movie!

There's no need to stare transfixed at visual garbage anymore than there's a need to stick your head all the way into the garbage pail when you tote out the trash in the morning. You know the garbage pail stinks. So what? How many times do you need to refresh your memory?

Where is the sophistication? Some of these "culture wars" sound like competing visions of how to create an ideal society "Of the hicks, by the hicks and for the hicks." I'm imagining an equivalent of Radio Free Europe -- Tube Free Islam maybe -- beaming reruns of Father Knows Best with the female characters in abayas (you can do anything with computer animation.) The message being: "See? We're really swell people after all. Those videos of Britney Spears are bogus."

Americans who don't like the nightly fare on the boob tube or "violent" video games might consider reaching for the off button on the remote. Consider picking up a book, patronizing a local theater group or going for a long walk, where you can think about writing a really wholesome, uplifting show that will actually sell. (Easier said than done, eh?)

Same thing with devout Muslims. If shrouding women, praying five times a day and abjuring worldly pleasure is such a satisfying way of life, why not just set a good example and be done with it? Why feel the need to spew bigoted epithets against anyone different? Why bother insisting that infidels convert or die? It sounds too much like work to me.

Vulgar popular entertainments -- or sophisticated ones for that matter -- are produced to relieve people of their humdrum lives. They give people a chance to experience vicariously what they lack the time, money or courage to experience in real life. Most of us have to work through the prime of our lives and prefer to avoid trouble. We can't afford to show up on Monday with gunshot wounds or a broken nose. We aren't going to face down the neighborhood bully, but we can watch Clint Eastwood pretend to do it. That's better than nothing. People who are too lazy to do 1000 situps a day can gawk at svelte actresses and say, "Yeah, well, if I only had the time. . ." Most people lack the self-discipline to practice the violin, but you can attend the symphony and hear people who do.

The trouble with Islamists, it seems to me, is they lack salesmanship. They don't seem very astute at winning converts through persuasion or enticement. I suspect the reason is that living under Sharia is an extreme version of Dullsville. Who would want to live in a burg like that WITHOUT being threatened by the sword? Maybe that's why they're so grouchy about the "decadent" West. If I understand human nature at all, one of the greatest sources of frustration and rage is when you suspect some undeserving jerk is having more fun than you are.

Living in the West is not the riotous quasi-orgy Hollywood makes it out to be. Even the real Hollywood isn't all that thrilling. It's one of the older, seedier parts of greater Los Angeles with a few fancy neighborhoods tucked behind the shrubbery. Hollywood's job is to produce special effects to amuse the rest of us during our time off. Most people here know it.

If people weren't fighting in the Middle East what would they be doing? Going to the mosque five times a day? Really, people -- doesn't that get a bit repetitive? Then, if you have a job at all, it means trudging back and forth in suffocating heat most of the year to some crummy Mom & Pop business owned by your tyrannical uncle. If you're really lucky some aunt or grandmother will pick out a wife for you and you can beat her up if she doesn't obey. Whoopie doo!

If you're a girl, you can submit to all of the above and remain virtually invisible in the eyes of the world.

I'd be very interested if any of you posters have been to ShariaLand and could report back. Is it as boring as it looks?

Speaking of medieval....
A Sudanese man was recently beheaded in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia for a rather...unique crime....

Did you know that SORCERY was against the laws of Saudi Arabia? (Against the laws of reality, too - even schoolchildren know that Harry Potter is FICTION....)

Well, not only is sorcery a crime in Saudi Arabia, it's one that's punishable by BEHEADING in the public square....so the Sudanese man who claimed to be able to heal the sick lost his head...

One has to wonder if it was televised.....21st century technology meets 7th century "justice...."

And they have a problem with OUR level of "civilization?"


Some points are very true...
... regarding moral decay in America, but the Muslim model to insure against immoral behavior is to punish women with long prison terms for being raped by Muslim men.

The Muslim model for social control is not just medieval, it's insane, and that's not in reference to the so-called radicals. Saudi Arabia very recently, again, punished a woman with prison for being raped by a gang of Muslim men.

Has anyone read about rape in the Scandinavian coutries? The rape of native Swedish women by Muslim is now common.

It's the culture - then turn your back!
Got the message from the article - Muslims don't like our culture...okay, then turn your back and ignore it - don't create a holy war on the west so we can live by their so-called "theology". The west doesn't want to be brought back to the 7th century like they do.

There's such a disparity then in the comments by the Muslim world. They want the technology to bring them into modern times and bring a brighter future for their people...however, they don't want the western baggage that comes along with it. Save the good stuff - kill off the bad...it's western people.

The middle-eastern conglomorant wants to purchase Dupont Chemical - gee, I wonder why? It's technology, development of diverse products and uses...and it's ability to create perhaps dangerous weapons down the road. How much more of America do we want to sell to foreign governments - especially potentially dangerous ones.

We may never get to truly understand the Muslim world because sometimes we can't and won't understand how they can blatenly kill their own kind, women, children and without a sense of shame. They recruit their young, women and use children as pawns to kill innocent people. We don't do things like that in the west...we value life more than killing for the sake of killing. Why do you think the war in Iraq has taken so long...because we won't bomb them back to the stone-age...we value life and freedom too much to kill indescrimantly. I'm afraid that our Muslim brother can't say the same.


Pappy
When you say "Morality cannot and should not be legislated," I assume you mean -- at least, I HOPE you mean -- "you can't change morals by passing laws." That's true as far is it goes. But to say "You shouldn't make laws based on morals," is too silly for words. Why should we pass laws based on anything BUT morals? What on earth did you think law is, if not the codification of a culture's morals???

At some level, I know you agree, since you point out that our laws have the Ten Commandments at their base. Did you imagine the Ten Commandments were not morals?

And in our situation, even the first statement -- that we can't change morals by passing laws -- isn't really true. We're faced with an entertainment industry that's badly out of step with the rest of us. They're deliberately filling our kids' heads with lies. You can't make people stop doing things they want to do (e.g. Prohibition) but you can certainly prevent Hollywood liberals from filling our kids' heads with immoral thoughts.

If the Hollywood moguls want to ADVOCATE teaching children to engage in casual, meaningless sex en masse, they are and should be free to advocate such behavior; most parents would ignore them. But to fill the airwaves -- radio, podcast, TV, movies -- with messages making casual sex seem the only legitimate option? or to make them think only morons could fail to be political liberals? That's not advocacy, that's propaganda, and I don't believe the Constitution guarantees a right to deceive by propaganda. Again, I see no conflict with the Constitution if we allow local elected governments to filter content according to a community standard.

Why the terrorist are killing us?

Quit making it up, stupid
"Many Muslims point to what they view as the horrors of liberal America: homosexual marriage, family breakdown, and a popular culture that is trivial, materialistic, vulgar, and in many cases morally repulsive. So while many secular Europeans abhor "red America," many religious Muslims dislike and fear `blue America.'"

You can read interviews with leaders of terrorist groups from the Islamic world. Their main issues are Israel (US suppor for), repressive regimes in Muslim countries (Pakistan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, ..., US support for). The sins of Las Vegas are way down on their list of rants. Of course, you would know that if you were a scholar.


Matrixism

No surprise a Cult would spring up from around those movies !

When Bob Heinlein's book, "Stranger in a strange Land" was published, a Cult sprang up from it as well. People were heard speaking the "language" of Mars. Do you grok?

Ever here of it anymore? No. Cult; dies with death of leader, or dies with passage of time.

The Decline of Western Civilization
Well they say that if you want to win a war the moral high ground can be indispensible. I agree that a good argument can be made for the fact that declining values and culture in the United States have but us on the hard to defend moral low ground. Declining values and content from Hollywood, MTV and pornography on the inetrnet are our terrible embassadors.

Not all the news from the USA is bad these days though. Spirituality is on the rise. While granted some of this rise in spirituality is just as socially corrupt as what comes out of Hollywood there are some positive signs.

A religion like Matrixism could be the kind of mustard seed that can grow in the morally bankrupt desert of modern Babylon. Not only that something like Matrixism has the potential to spread back and cast America forward in a positive light. Matrixism is only one example of the many kernels of moral goodness they lie just below the surface of modern America.

inkling

I agree with you that our country could use some cleaning up. That said, in this country we use the rule of law and the Constitution to determine what is or is not legal. Want to get HollyWeird to clean up? Organize, boycott and hit 'em where it hurts; in the wallet.

Morality cannot and should not be legislated. Who is going to decide what is moral? I do not trust Politicians with this, nor do I trust the "majority" to tell me what is moral.

Most of our laws can be traced back to the original Ten Commandments. Those laws are nearly perfectly adequate for a Free society such as ours.

Men are imperfect and we will not attain Utopia until men are no longer men. I would prefer to be disgusted by Jerry Springer and Rosie O'Doughnut than to be without the Freedom to speak my mind.

The Quran requires Mohammedans to convert the non-believers; by words where Islam is weak and by force where Islam is strong.

Is Sharia what you want to live under? I prefer the Constitution of the USA.

Pappy
Who DIDn'T research Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, etc. in their search for enlightenment? It's part of the rite of passage for entering adulthood.

Instead of mentioning books, I should have asked how many people who seem to know exactly what Muslims think about anything actually go to those countries or have friends from the middle east. I am condescending about many of the posts because they are ridiculous -- and my friends and acquaintances from the middle east would also find them laughable.

Has it ever occurred to any of you that many Iraq Muslims hate Americans because they are THERE instead of HERE? They are tired of having their doors kicked in in the middle of the night, having American 18 year-olds telling them how to live, what to believe, and terrifying their children in the meantime.

We should pay attention
Dinesh D'Souza, unlike so many of the critics on this thread, actually spent parts of his life among the people he's writing about. Yes, there are plenty of other things in the equation, plenty of historical and political factors that are included in the reasons we're hated in various places. But D'Souza knows what he's talking about, and the decadence of America is one of the most serious objections the Jihadis have.

Furthermore, controlling the decadence does not in any way endanger the liberties we have as a nation. I don't believe there's a single one of the nation's founders, from Patrick Henry to Thomas Jefferson (and CERTAINLY not the Adamses) who would have had the slightest objection to obscenity laws that would prevent 9/10 of the garbage on TV from ever making it to the screen. Modern Americans haven't the slightest notion of the difference between liberty, which is about doing what one's conscience demands, and license, which is about doing what one's flesh desires. They are worlds apart.

We'll have a chance at sanity, and a fighting chance at peace with the Middle East, if we ever wake up to the fact that the leaders of the entertainment industry are FAR out of step with American society, and ought to be shunned.

My GOD, folks... can anybody seriously believe that the liberty of the nation would be damaged by shutting down Springer Break on MTV?

jojo

In my search for Spiritual Enlightenment, I researched Islam, Buddhism, Shintoism, Zen and Hindu teachings. At one point in my life I considered converting to Islam.

Some of us "experts" are actually fairly well read on the subjects we comment upon, I don't speak for all experts of course.

Your condescending attitude however, displays a lack of understanding that can only be attributed to your lack of research.

It would be a great help to the rest of us if you could stop getting your talking points from Al Frankin or from moveondotorg.

It might be helpful
if most of you could stop getting your information from talk radio-heads who have to keep you ignorant and riled in order to get their ratings (which means getting their advertisers) or from right-wing blogs like this that have to do the same in order to pay the bills.

This thread represents
at least 15 different "experts" who are telling the rest of us how Iranians, Iraqis, Jordanians, Egyptians, Saudis, et. al. think and feel.

Each one of them has a totally different explanation, all of which seem to be pulled out their behinds -- how many of you even know a muslim, or citizen of any of these countries, how many of you have read more than one ( or any, for that matter) book about the history of these countries and their religion, especially from the point of view of the people who live there? Or do you think you all know better?

Many Middle Easterners see Americans as clumsy, arrogant, sermonizers who think that our culture, our religion, and our way of life is the only ones that matter.

This thread hardly proves them wrong.

Islam seems

to believe that its morality is superior to all others. Such arrogance !

I am as disgusted by the lack of morality in the USA as any Muslim is. The difference being this; I live in the United States of America and I believe in the Freedoms we enjoy, notably speech and religion.

Our Constitution does not allow the Government to make any law concerning religion. In the MidEast, Religion IS the Law.

I believe most Americans are on the side of Freedom. Government and Religion shall never be combined in the USA.

Thus, Mohammedans will continue to try to convert or kill all Americans.

Thus, Americans will continue to fight against Mohammedans in a never ending war of ideologies.

Envy
Envy is one of the seven deadly sins because it leads to others. It is a sin of the heart & soul as opposed to a sin of act. Europe is mired in 9% unemployment and an aging population while America has 5% unemployment and is vibrant. People will risk almost any danger to come here. Europe had to rely on America to bale it out in two world wars then provide a nuclear umbrella to protect it from the Russians. It's kinda like having to borrow money from your brother in law then look him in the eye at Thanksgiving. It gives you an inferiority complex. Europe masks its envy behind its so called progressive snobishness while the muslims go to the other extreme. The muslims don't hate Europe because they have nothing to fear from them. In 15 years it's gonna be Eurabia and everyone knows it. But those damned Americans just don't get it. The late Louis Rukeyser once said after the 9-11 attack "People have been betting agianst America since 1776. They were wrong then and they are wrong now." Compare that with the President of Sweeden saying "We must be nice to the muslims so when they are the majority they will be nice to us." Could you ever in a million years believe such words would come from an American President? It is our sense of confidence that offends the rest of the world. What other country could have ever put a man on the moon and brought him home. Name one just one. After the 9-11 attacks we didn't wallow in self pity no, we faught back and that offended the muslims. How dare they, don't they know they are beaten. It is that feeling of destiny which the rest of the world lacks. Israel, tiny Israel surrounded by enemies. A lone modern democratic island in a sea of backwardness and superstition. Attacked several times and always managed to survive and thrive prosperous and free. It alone with America shares a sense of destiny. That ladies and gentlemen is why we are despised. That is why we are envied. Remember; I am John Doe.

Why is it so surprising?
... that Muslims around the world detest what they view as the increasing degeneracy of American popular culture? Plenty of Americans hate it, too.

It is interesting that there are plenty of instances in human history of cultures and civilizations becoming sloth, depraved and degenerate -- and being destroyed from without by another culture viewed as inferior and barbaric.

Historians, take note.

Taking your enemies words at face value
Is madness.

Most Muslims leaders have either studied or, visited in America.

Their condemnation of America is pure agitation; none of them actually believe that freedom would results in all of their daughters becoming porn-stars.

Why they know is that American strenght is the only significant obstacle to them having more international power to justify their oppression.

They don't really care about American culture; they fear granting American style freedom to their people.

Most of these Sheiks probably have their own little secret stash of porn.

Danesh this is two simplistic columns in a row.

The Only Thing
Muslims are right about. Though I'm certainly no prude, I had to get rid of my television because so little of it was intellectually stimulating or amusing. Likewise, I have not stepped one foot inside a movie theatre in over 15 years. Same reason.

If the image I had of the US came from Rosie O'Donnell, Sex in the City, or MTV, there is likely only one image of the US I'd draw. These images are not just offensive to Muslims, but conservatives everywhere. The difference is, and leftists should take notice, conservatives in the US tolerate this trash, no matter how offensive, and no matter how much it undermines the values they try to teach their children. If there were no difference between a Christian fundamentalist and a Muslim Fundamentalist, there'd be a hell of a lot fewer leftists.

The Europeans just hate conservatives.

Islam is not the answer
One can agree with Islam that much in the West is decadent. Pope John Paul II, Pope Benedict XVI, Jerry Falwell and Billy Graham would agree. But Islam in its joylessness, in its rigid hatred of liberty, is certainly not the answer. Yes, Western Civilization is in serious need of rejuvenation and renewal. But Islam is our enemy, too.

Not all of it, but part of it
It's doubtful that Bin Laden and al-Zawahiri launched their campaign against America after seeing one Britney Spears video too many.

But there are over a billion Muslims in the world, and most of them don't think too much of the West in general and American in particular. We can't destroy the Muslim faith, and we can't kill every Muslim. So how do we win this battle? How do we reduce the heat under the boiling pot of Islam so that it no longer seeks to dominate or destroy us?

We have to peel as many ordinary Muslims away from Bin Laden and his ilk as we can. This is where our current popular culture works against us. Hollywood shows us as people who fall into bed with strangers, who cheat on our spouses, who plot and scheme for more money and greater power, who revel in drugs and drink. This doesn't win us any points in the much more traditional Muslim world.

The other side of the coin is our freedom and prosperity. Our popular culture tends to hide America's basic decency, but it celebrates our freedom of action and our lavish lifestyle. For people who mostly live in terrible poverty under politically oppressive regimes, this must breed a tremendous amount of resentment. One of the main ideas behind the invasion of Iraq--to topple Saddam and build a civil society in Iraq that affords basic liberties to its people, provides more economic opportunities, and distributes the oil wealth a little more evenly.

Osama Bin Laden won't come down out of the mountains of Waziristan just because we start making cleaner, more uplifting movies and TV shows. He certainly doesn't want economic and political freedom to take hold in Iraq and slowly spread across the Muslim world.

But Mao said that the populace was the sea in which the guerilla swims. A sensible shift in our popular culture would help make the swimming a little harder for Bin Laden and his pals.

Dinesh D'Souza is an enabler of terror
It is not for our nation to surrender to Islam, promising to be on our "good behavior." Thtis sort of cultural Stockholm Syndrome, in which we bond with our captors, would be nothing short of disgraceful. As an American, I refuse to do the dirty work of our tormentors, and engage in censorship of supposedly "immoral" artists. Even if we complied, the Muslims would not be impressed. They despise anything that does not submit to their God, Allah, no matter how many films like "Amazing Grace" come out.

Muslims kill because of their religion, not because of roles that Nicole Kidman or Sandra Bullock play on screen. One, two, three, four --I don't want their culture war. Or Mr. D'Souza's, for that matter. You don't like Clint Eastwood or Woody Allen? Tough!! Deal with it, Mr. Culture War.

Our 'Friends'
Going Nowhere Fast
by David Ignatius
The Washington post, February 21, 2007

The polling was done last year by Zogby International in six countries that are usually regarded as pro-American: Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Morocco, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates.

In these six "friendly" countries, ONLY 12% OF THOSE SURVEYED EXPRESSED FAVORABLE ATTITUDES TOWARD THE U.S. America's leaders have surpassed Israel's as objects of anger. Asked which foreign leader they disliked most, 38% named George Bush; Ariel Sharon was a distant second at 11% ; and Ehud Olmert was third with 7%

The poll data show a deep suspicion of American motives: 65% of those surveyed said they didn't think democracy was a real U.S. objective in the Middle East. Asked to name two countries that had the most freedom and democracy, only 14% said America, putting it FAR BEHIND FRANCE & GERMANY. And remember, folks, this is coming from our friends.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/
wp-dyn/content/article/2007/02/20/AR2007022001268.html

perfect Islam
So I guess what dinesh is saying is that muslim countries have no prostitution, no drug use and certainly no alcohol permitted? What a load of horse squeeze. They just hide it better than we do. At least we decadent Americans are honest with ourselves.

Jake and Dinesh
I believe you are both right. Jake, everything you say about the Islamowhackjobs is correct. However I agree with the author that our cutural depravity and its export to every end of the Earth has certainly attracted their attention. The problem for us is that those around the world who are watching all of this, while they are not like part of the radical jihadis, still see America as a filthy, craven, sexually obsessed country that threatens their cultures as well. Therefore they remain silent and stay on the sidelines while all the jihadism goes on because they see no reason to support us and be against them. Then on the homefront the average American, who is tired of the bar being set lower and lower every day, is also afraid of the moral decay and decline of the culture and what effect it will have on their lives and the lives of their children. Everything that was once good is now bad and everything that was once bad is now good. For a long time what was put out by Hollywood IS what the world believed us to be. Now with the ability to watch American TV on satelite and access the American porn industry via the Internet their opinion of us becomes even lower - they think we are a anti-God, homosexual loving, drug using fornicating people. When you combine all of this with the liberal plan to feminize American men and inhibit their ability to fight back when attacked you find a country ripe for the picking and an excellent target for conversion.

D'Souza is Right
But his solution to the problem is woefully lacking. I see no solution that will actually happen, in fact.

My 2 cents
Last Friday we commemorated the killing of a man who had among other things proclaimed the coming of the kingdom of God. After having been nailed to a tree he hung there in unimaginable agony for three hours. While hanging there he said "Father forgive them - they know not what they do."

Can anyone honestly imagine a muslim doing that?

Still not getting it
It's much too easy to think that the only thing Islamists are reacting against is American moral decay. D'Souza maintains this idea, of course, because it fits his conservatism very well. What is unacceptable to Islam (and not just to 'radical' Islam) is the individual freedom persons have in the West to order their own lives, whether for good or ill.

It's very difficult for most Americans (or Dutch or French, for that matter) to understand that Islam places no value on what we take for granted: that we have, and rightfully have, a very wide range of actions over which we can exercise individual choice. A man or woman in a Western society has "freedom to choose" (to borrow Milton and Rose Friedman's famous title)what kind of education or work he or she will seek out, whether or not to believe in a religion and attend its worship services, whether or not to start a family, how to raise children, how long or short to wear one's hair or one's skirt, whether to enjoy fine art or NASCAR, and so much more.

When people have these freedoms, some will become drug users, criminals, and moral reprobates. Some will cheat on their wives or husbands. Some of them will even become Republicans or Democrats. But the ISlamic sharia is a law that regulates all aspects of human behavior in the name of God. The devout Muslim finds it difficult to imagine, let alone support, the crazy quilt of individual freedoms that has evolved in the West. That's why a movie maker could be killed in the street: no nonbeliever may criticize the true religion. There are some things people just shouldn't be free to do.

I strongly urge conservatives to read the British conservative philosopher Roger Scruton's book "The West and the Rest" (ISI, 2002). Scruton explains how Muslims look at these kinds of issues more clearly than I've seen in any other book on the subject. For example, he explains that the 9/11 commandeer Mohammad Atta very likely was deeply offended that in Western cities large office buildings tower over mosques. The mosque is supposed to be the tallest building in a true Muslim city. When the diffferences between Westerners and Muslims come down to things like that, we should begin to get the idea that maybe a lot of "them" don't think like "us."

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