Townhall.com, Where Your Opinion Counts
Talk Radio:   Bill Bennett   Mike Gallagher   Dennis Prager   Michael Medved   Hugh Hewitt   
BREAKING NEWS  LeftArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican   RightArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican  
Columns, funnies & more in your inbox!
  • Check the boxes and send us your email address to receveive your free newsletter
  • Your daily must-read of conservative columns, cartoons and news. Coulter, Sowell, Krauthammer and more.
  • Townhall.com’s weekly inside scoop on what’s happening behind the scenes in the world of politics. When news breaks, we report.
  • Signup to receive the latest daily Townhall cartoons
Wednesday, July 11, 2007
Michael Medved :: Townhall.com Columnist
Hitchens vs. God
by Michael Medved
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
[+] Text [-]
 
Poll
Will Congress pass Obamacare by the end of the year?

Christopher Hitchens has been abundantly blessed for attacking God.

His outrageous and entertaining book, “god is not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything” has become a major bestseller and earned its sardonic author more than a million dollars, according to a recent estimate by the Wall Street Journal.

For any sophisticated religious believer, this powerfully popular work represents a maddening combination of stimulation and sloppiness, erudition and ignorance, provocation and puerility.

The sly distortions and grotesque errors that appear in every chapter of his work demonstrate the author’s carelessness and arrogance. In one especially appalling example (on page 100), Hitchens writes of “the pitiless teachings of the god of Moses, who never mentions human solidarity and compassion at all.” He thereby ignores the most celebrated commandment in the Five Books of Moses, “Love your neighbor as yourself” (Leviticus 19:18), identified by Jewish sages (and in Matthew’s Gospel by Jesus himself) as the very essence of the Hebrew Scriptures. Hitchens also fails to acknowledge the innumerable Old Testament injunctions to show loving-kindness and mercy in dealing with widows, orphans, strangers, and the poor. Whether one imputes these teachings to God or to Moses, they hardly qualify as “pitiless” and most certainly emphasize “human solidarity and compassion.”

Beyond its factual errors and obvious misstatements, “god is not Great” (Hitchens makes a point of never spelling the word “God” with a capital “G”) provides a frequently primitive and juvenile characterization of religious belief. Near the conclusion of his book he suggests that “religion offers either annihilation in the name of god, or else the false promise that if we take a knife to our foreskin, or pray in the right direction, or ingest pieces of wafer, we shall be ‘saved.’” This breezy dismissal obviously misrepresents Christianity (with most denominations considering a relationship with Christ more important to salvation than consumption of magical wafers) but also misses the entire thrust of Judaism, which never mandated circumcision for non-Jews nor limited a share in the afterlife to members of the House of Israel.

The countless quibbles with the book’s shoddy scholarship and clumsy mischaracterizations of Biblical tradition easily could fill a separate corrective volume or take up any opportunity for interview or debate with Mr. Hitchens. On my radio show, I therefore decided to avoid focusing on such details when he agreed to talk with me for two full hours earlier today. Rather than spending precious time proving that he shamefully misquoted the 11th Century sage Moses Maimonides, or challenging his odd insistence (emphatically and tellingly repeated on my show) that a charismatic teacher named Jesus of Nazareth never even existed, I concentrated instead on five core questions to challenge his fundamental argument that “religion poisons everything.”

1. Some 24 years ago Hitchens abandoned his British homeland and chose to make his life in the United States. This April, he proudly took the oath as a naturalized American citizen at the Jefferson Memorial. He has written movingly and persuasively of his love for his adopted country—despite the fact that throughout its history the people of the United States have proven notably more committed to their predominantly Christian faith than their Western European counterparts. A previous visiting journalist named Alexis de Tocqueville described America as “a nation with the soul of a church” and Hitchens conceded that to this day more Americans engage in regular prayer and Bible study than do the citizens of any other advanced Western nation. If religion indeed “poisons everything” then why has it so pointedly failed to poison the United States – producing, instead, a nation that Hitchens himself openly prefers to any other?

2. Throughout his book, Hitchens attacks “religion” in general, regularly dismissing the common fallacies he identifies in all major faiths, assaulting Islam, Christianity and Judaism with comparable gusto. In so doing, he inadvertently lets homicidal and self-destructive Islamo-Nazis off the hook: conflating today’s suicide bombings in the name Allah with medieval pogroms in the name of Jesus, or Biblical accounts of Israelite violence against the ancient Amalekites. The generalized indictment of “religion” fails to acknowledge the unique cruelty and insanity of contemporary Islamism; like leftist apologists for terrorist crimes, he takes the position that “all religions are guilty” so Muslim fanatics bear no unique culpability. In the style of Cold War skeptics who discerned an absurd moral equivalence between the United States and the Soviet Union, he ends up trivializing the monstrousness of current jihadist dogma by comparing it to Christian and Jewish teachings that produce no similarly bloody consequences in today’s world. In the same sense, he specifically likens the hideous, indefensible practice of female genital mutilation in “some animist and Muslim societies,” with the circumcision of baby boys which, unlike clitorectomy, boasts abundant defenders (and practitioners) within the modern medical community. By assailing all religions as similarly barbaric and primitive, Hitchens effectively denies the singular dangers and dementia of Islamism which he has vividly delineated in other contexts.

3. Hitchens emphasizes his fervent belief in Darwinian evolution as the process that produced all life forms and facilitated human advancement but in this context offers no explanation for what some scientists have identified as “the God gene.” Natural selection means that any characteristic that confers reliable advantage on a species will survive and spread, while an attribute that handicaps this organism will, ultimately, disappear. If, then, “religion poisons everything,” how can one explain the persistence throughout human history of the religious impulse, and the sturdy survival of our pious instincts throughout the modern era? In confronting that challenge today, Hitchens alluded to prehistoric times in which medicine hardly existed, but suffering individuals might consult a witch doctor or shaman for superstitious cures. Even though these ministrations provided no physiological benefit, he argued, they helped the sufferers by adding to their confidence of recovery and emotional health—thereby conferring some evolutionary advantage to the faithful. This strained explanation for the widespread survival and vigor of organized religion in effect concedes a fundamental argument of many believers --- that regardless of its theological accuracy, a strong faith can make people healthier, happier and more productive, or at least healthier and longer-lived.

4. In describing himself and his fellow atheists near the opening of his book, Hitchens declares: “We are not immune to the lure of wonder and mystery and awe: we have music and art and literature, and find that the serious ethical dilemmas are better handled by Shakespeare and Tolstoy and Schiller and Dostoyevsky and George Eliot than in the mythical morality tales of the holy books. Literature, not scripture, sustains the mind and –since there is no other metaphor- the soul.” Ironically, all the literary giants he describes as ethical guides were themselves guided, or at least informed, by their deep belief in God—in fact two of them (Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky) were full-out religious mystics. How can Hitchens unblushingly look to these writers as the right source for handling “serious ethical dilemmas” when their lives and work showed the unmistakable influence of religious teaching which he elsewhere holds in rank contempt?

5. In discussing the reaction to his book, Hitchens describes the polite reception he’s received in debating God’s existence at various churches and synagogues around the country, and acknowledges the lack of threat or rage from those who disagree with his angry dismissal of religious faith. In other words, even deeply devout Americans have, by and large, responded with tolerance, geniality and an eagerness to debate the issues he raises. By contrast, Hitchens himself viciously denounced Jerry Falwell on the very day of the evangelist’s death, declaring him “a hateful little toad,” “a fraud” and “a charlatan” and insisting (in a televised interview on CNN) that Falwell never sincerely held the beliefs he professed over the course of his long, productive lifetime. In other words, the atheist Hitchens showed less tolerance and generosity to a just deceased preacher than religious critics and commentators display to Hitchens in responding to his furious, anti-religious book. On the air, Hitchens answered this challenge by reminding the audience that many ardent believers argue that all the irreligious will end up with the torments of hell, so they don’t need to specifically indict or denounce one outspoken author. This dodges the reality, however, of an obvious “kindness gap”: Hitchens never challenged my assertion that if Falwell had been given the opportunity to comment on Hitchens’ death, rather than the other way around, the language would have proven more measured, forgiving, and considerate of the grieving family.

This brings me to the challenge that Hitchens has posed in various debates across the country, and which he put forward once again on my radio show. He offers a prize to anyone who can come up with an ethical declaration or behavior that a religious believer could urge or demonstrate that couldn’t equally win endorsement from an ethical atheist.

This challenge undermines none of the serious arguments for faith – only a fool would suggest that all atheists will prove incapable of moral conduct or sentiments. The enduring case for associating religious teaching with human goodness doesn’t contend that Biblical truth alone makes such goodness possible, but rather that religious adherence makes that decency more likely. In his compelling recent book “Who Really Cares,” my friend Professor Arthur Brooks of Syracuse University shows that the faithful contribute to charity and volunteer their time to compassionate causes with far greater consistency and generosity than their secular colleagues.

One might quarrel that these statistical studies reflect only a coincidental connection between religious belief and good behavior, but they certainly undermine the Hitchens contention that “religion poisons everything.” Reminders of the unspeakable viciousness of the long-ago Crusades, or of the bloodthirsty and degenerate tendencies of present day Muslim fanatics, can’t erase the kindness and warm-hearted good fellowship of religious communities across the United States this week and the next, or the generosity and consideration that most of those communities display even to non-believers.

The greatness and goodness of the American experiment haven’t arisen in spite of the nation’s ardent religious heritage, but because of it. For those of us fortunate enough to enjoy the blessings of this freakishly favored society, religion hardly amounts to a poison, but represents rather the elixir of life.

Share:
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
 
About The Author
Michael Medved's daily syndicated radio talk show reaches one of the largest national audiences every weekday between 3 and 6 PM, Eastern Time. Michael Medved is the author of eleven books, including the bestsellers What Really Happened to the Class of '65?, Hollywood vs. America, Right Turns and, most recently, The Ten Big Lies About America.
 
TOWNHALL DAILY: Be the first to read Michael Medved's column. Sign up today and receive Townhall.com daily lineup delivered each morning to your inbox.
Hitchens v. God
God is not mocked. It is appointed to each man once to die and then the judgment. At that point, it will be far too late for Mr. Hitchens to regret his words and deeds.

bravo
I'm so thankful when i see smart christians speak up with the fantastic combination of intellectual accuracy, patience and love!
thank you for addressing hitchens the way that you did.

Hitchens vs. Pope JPII
Michael,

Right after Pope John Paul II died, Hitchens wrote a vicious article describing him as (I paraphrase) "drooling, disgusting, senile old man."

Hitchens has a problem with any religious leader with any influence, starting with Mother Theresa.

His equating Islamofascists with believing Christians and Jews is especially disturbing.

hitchens
I wonder if hitchens (no capital "H") might compose another book entitled:

"homosexuals are not great"

This foul minded chatterer would not have the courage to be politically incorrect.

Ted Goldman

"Sophisticated" religious believer?
Blah, blah, blah... more simpy, religious blather from Medved. God/Allah/Elvis forbid that anyone dare to suggest the obvious: that so-called "organized" religion is not only the biggest hoax ever perpetrated on humanity but is also the single most devisive, intolerant, hypocritical and destructive force in all of human history.

Lame-ved's entire blather illustrates this perfectly. He and others will carry on about so-called "religious persecution" but can't stand to have some dare to suggest that their brain-washed views may in fact be false. Boo-hoo!

My Money is on GOD!
Hitchens is a Typical, Heathen, Hypocrite. He writes a book on something he has no knowledge of. Mr. .Medved points out several MAJOR errors in the books and alludes to a plethora on other errors. Yet, other Heathens buy it, swallow his lies hook, line and sinker and proclaim him a Genius. Apparently, Mr. Hitchens subscribes to the Michael Moore “If I say it, It’s True!” philosophy of Writing/Filmmaking.

BTW, what happened to Liberals trying to relate to Christians? Could it be that Liberals were/are LYING TO US?!

Spell Check Version-My Money is on God
Hitchens is a Typical, Heathen, Hypocrite. He writes a book on something he has no knowledge of. Mr. Medved points out several MAJOR errors in the books and alludes to a plethora of other errors. Yet, other Heathens buy it, swallow his lies hook, line and sinker and proclaim Hitchens a Genius. Apparently, Mr. Hitchens subscribes to the Michael Moore “If I say it, It’s True!” philosophy of Writing/Filmmaking.

BTW, what happened to Liberals trying to relate to Christians? Could it be that Liberals were/are LYING TO US?!

My Oh My!
The Heathens are out in force this morning!

Link
Does anyone have a link to the radio show with Hitchens and Medved?

Medved
Phylo said:

" This is a favored tactic of Medved the weasel. He piles as many negative adjectives as he can on top of his opponents books assuming that the majority of his audience will take him at his word; but then, when it comes to providing actual examples to back up his grandiose claims, he seems to fall more than a little short."

Mercy, Phylo, did you even read Medved's article?

Your reference to Jimmy Carter was enough to give you away. Hitchens would have made a better case for atheism if he had held up Carter as the epitome of the religious personality. The ex-president supposedly is a devout Christian. In reality Carter is an idiot. This is the same man who offered to take all of Cuba's political prisoners. Saint Fidel must have been laughing in his beard as he emptied his prisons of, not political prisoners, but murderers, rapists, drug dealers etc. and loosed them on the United States in what was called "the Mariel Boatlift". Carter was arguably the worst president of the 20th Century.

DJF

George. Phylo, Eyes
Medved is nothing if not predictable. I could have told you what his column would say before reading it. The problem is, when it comes to intellectual rigor and erudition Hitchens has MM beat, pure and simple.

Anyway, this is Medved's job. Like Coulter, He says whatever keeps listeners and readers happy, which brings in the $$. Content is not really that important.

I heard the interview with Hitchens (sorry, Mike I don't know how to get the recording but you might check his web-site) and MM did what he usually does, which is to debate his guests with civility and earnestness and then trash them when they are off the air.

By the way
Medved also spent quite a bit of time yesterday saying that the Bush administration has NOT politicized the justice department, that "winning the war" (whatever that is) will end international terrorism, and that Bush is only denying access to former justice employees to protect executive privilege (Bush's executive branch, he didn't mention Cheney's).

Anyway, this is an indicator of the steel-trap intellectual argumentation that is opposing Hitchens.

As if we don't have enough things ...
to argue about on townhall.com without trying to argue religion ... "mine's better'n yours!" .... "nya nya nya no it's not!".

Medved is free to disagree with Hitchens, and vice versa, about whether religion in general is good or bad for humanity, and whether any religions in particular are good or bad. In everybody's heart of hearts, even in countries run by secular dictators and/or religious zealots, we are all free to believe what we want, and none of us needs to defend our personal beliefs to anybody else. We are also all free to proclaim our own beliefs, and publish them, and if we're lucky, maybe sell a few books in the process.

Christians and Jews and Muslims and Buddhists and Hindus and Animists all have published millions of tomes and preached millions of sermons debating and defending their respective beliefs over the ages, and nobody seems to give a darn or even notice ... but when one guy writes a book defending his atheistic beliefs, Medved and other religious commentators on townhall.com go nuts!

Take a deep breath ... atheism, or any other particular collection of spiritual or anti-spiritual beliefs that challenge the predominant institutional religious beliefs of billions of people are just as deserving of tolerance as any of the hundreds of religious dogmas preached incessantly over the ages. If you guys want to rant that Hitchens is a totally venal guy just because of his atheistic beliefs, and especially because of his audacity to print them in a best-selling publication, then why should any of you expect him (or me) to owe you any respect for your religion?

Comfort yourselves just knowing in your heart of hearts that Hitch is going to Hell. Isn't that enough punishment for his thought crimes?

This is just a matter of religious pots calling the irreligious kettles black! Enough already!

Let's go back to arguing the easy stuff, like politics and politicians! (and furthermore let's have no more argumentation over Mitt's Mormonism vs. fundamental Christianism!! it just simply does not matter to 99% of American voters!!)

Bravo, Michael
Your sharp prose and elegant style take apart Mr. Hitchens and his "I hate God" position. Thank you for this article.

A thing or two
I don't have a problem with anybody writing any kind of religious or anti-religious book (or column, for that matter) that they like. I have a problem with cynicism and intellectual pander.

Agnostic Who Heard The Interview
Medved did an excellent job promoting Hitchen's book, unbiased, and recommended it to all his listeners. Also, he was very fair on his questions to Hitchens.

Medved truly wanted to understand why Hitchens felt as he did, and also, where were his sources to back it up---and Hitchens came off as a smarmy, unapologetic and arrogant hypocrite.

Look I'm not religious, but although Hitchens has his opinion God doesn't exist, he cannot prove it as fact which he believes he does in his book. And for him to even suggest that Jesus never existed, even as a human being on this earth is absolutely close-mindedly ridiculous.

Hitchens is so profiting immensely on denouncing religion, that if he truly were a seeker of knowledge and opened his mind to truth of God's existence, he may find himself not as rich as he is now. Being open minded and giving pause to certain ideals would not make him the Atheist Mogul he is today.

Hitchens will not listen to other people's opinions, nor consider anything other than what he believes he discovered himself.

Just listen to the interview. Medved handled him very well, it is simply Hitchens who came off as a stubborn know-it-all teenager.

Theism verses atheism
Theists continually are trapped into justifying the minutia of a particular faith to disprove atheism rather than discussing the actual argument which is theism verses atheism.
Can an atheist show through science an infinite universe? Is energy/mater eternal? If not were did it come from and when will it end? Is God discoverable through the scientific method?
This is a much more edifying discussion than whether or not we need to circumcise male children. Maters of faith can not prove or disprove the existence of God.

Hitchens must be On to Something
He's got all of Townhall in a snit.

I imagine any day they'll be an article about Hitchens from Roger Schlesinger, the guy who spends every column telling you how to shop for a home mortgage.

An ethical atheist?
Christians base ethics on an interpretation of how God would judge.

Given that an "ethical athiest" is not going to do that, but instead will look to himself (or another person, or perhaps the ACLU) how can any code of ethics be universal? It can't be. Just as you aren't going to accept my code for yourself, I'm not going to accept yours. So everyone gets to decide for themselves.

But as long as everyone is deciding for themselves, does Charles Manson also decide for himself? How about Osama bin Ladan?

The greater problem is that without God there is no use for ethics except for keeping the sheeple in line because there is no such thing as true evil. It goes like this:

- If there is no God, then we got here through evolution as an accident of chemistry.
- If that's the case, then we can all be charactarized as chemical reactions that happen to have achieved self-awareness.
- There is no "evil" in a test tube. You add A to B and you get AB. You add Charles Manson and person X in a room and you get Charles Manson. Chemical reactions. No right. No wrong.

Upon what basis does one chemical reaction claim to judge the actions of any other?

moral_majority
I missed the part where Medved called for Hitchens' head.

You say, "People of faith can freely publish books on why they choose to live in a fantasyland; no one condemns that."

- Actually, that's very far from the truth. Doesn't Hitchens himself "condemn that?" Isn't that what Medved's column is about -- defending Christianity against Hitchens' condemnations?

Then you say: "But help us all if these nutcases find out there are some of us who wish to live in the real world without the aid of special beings up above listening to our thoughts & directing our actions."

- Do you think that maybe someday in the distant future these "nutcases" will find out that not everybody is a Christian? C'mon. Anybody over the age of 5 who isn't being raised by the Amish has already "found out." So, what point are you trying to make exactly?

Hitchens v. God?
Medved assumes, along lines of St Anselm's ontological argument, what many theists assume about atheists. But atheism is not an argument about God but about theism, that is, various relativistic religious conceptions of God.

More suprising is Medved's backing off the typical theist argument morality derives from God or religion: "...only a fool would suggest that all atheists will prove incapable of moral conduct or sentiments. The enduring case for associating religious teaching with human goodness doesn’t contend that Biblical truth alone makes such goodness possible, but rather that religious adherence makes that decency more likely." Such an intellectually honest admission ought to open many doors to discussion of shared morals.

Agnostic Front
Neither Hitchens nor any other rational atheist, and there are many atheists who are not rational, would say they know god does not exist. What we say is we believe good does not exist. And This belief is based on the statistical probability of god existing.

Suppose I said I have not been in my bed room for the last half hour and when I left there was no one in there, but I believe there is a hot chick in their right now completely naked who wants to have sex with me.

That isn't very likely. I have been watching the door way to my room and no one has gone in their.

Yet it is possible. After all I know hot chicks exist. I know they have sex. I know they can get naked. I know it is possible for someone to enter though the bedroom window.

So, even though the probability of their being a hot chick n my room ready to have sex with me is very slim, it is at least empirically possible.

Now the same can not be said of God. For this reason... Agnosticism, the idea that one can not know if there is a god is disingenuous. Because the probability of their being a god versus the probability that there is no god is not 1:1

moral_majority,
What if I didn't believe in God, and was convinced that I was evolved from monkeys?

Why should I believe that it's wrong to kill in ANY circumstances?

Who is there to say that it's wrong for me to murder an entire family for my own personal pleasure? You live according to your rules, and I'll live according to mine.

m_m,
My lunchtime is over, but if you respond I'll try to post a response later tonight.

Phylo
What exactly is evil about defending religion? Medveds arguments were pretty straight forward with regards to this book. He may have grandstanded a bit in the beginning, but it doesn't take away from the substance of the article.

You don't have to be a religious zealot to understand that although it is factually correct to state that most wars are based on religion and/or geography, it is also factually correct to state that religion when taught appropriately is the moral compass by which society is also based. By and large Christianity in the US is taught from the standpoint of tolerance and love for your neighbors.

moral majority
Mr Moral, you completely missed Steve O's point when it comes to good and evil. Without God, Hitler and Stalin were just ambitious guys who used the power they had. Not "evil"...right?

The unforgivable sin of Atheism...
....is its pretense of intellectual openness, while really being the exact opposite. I call it "unforgivable" only because it is a mental trap that allows its victim no opportunity to escape.

Atheism is nothing more than faith w/ something other than God as its object. If the Atheistic faithful could only take one step back and view their creed w/ more objective eyes, they would begin to see that the supposed irrationality and emotionalism they so deride in Thesists is at the heartless core of their own world view.

Note: I am calling Atheism heartless, not its hapless victim, the Atheist. Just the opposite is true. Atheists tend to be large-but-broken hearted folk. They feel injured or perhaps abandoned by God, and, lacking any other course for reciprocation, they simply shake their empty fist at the blameless heavens and declare, "YOU ARE DEAD TO ME."

This feckless exercise has all the intellectual heft of a Tom & Jerry cartoon. Yet it passes as reasoned and intelligent empiricism. To say, " I can't see it. Therefore it doesn't exist," is neither reasonable nor intelligent.

But the emotional heft is still there, which is why Atheists, especially the brand who are smart enough to observe how badly they are losing the intellectual debate, are becoming so frothingly evangelical and aggressive. Some of them become like the soul-sellers on Youtube, who are just big versions of small brats shouting curse words at the dinner table, hoping to draw attention to themselves.

Others, like Hitchens, are actually believers who really want to convert the thinking of this world. Misguided or not, at least their intentions are not without some honor. But if honor and integrity are truly important to him, Hitchens may want to consider upgrading to Agnostic, where at least there is some intellectual integrity.

Killing is learned behaviour
"Who is there to say that it's wrong for me to murder an entire family for my own personal pleasure? You live according to your rules, and I'll live according to mine."

By conducting extensive post-combat interviews, Marshall discovered that the great majority of combat soldiers were unable to overcome their moral reservations about killing. [6] He documented the stunning fact that less than 25% of the rifleman in combat fired their weapons, and “that fear of killing, rather than fear of being killed, was the most common cause of battle failure.”[7]

http://www.usafa.af.mil/jscope/JSCOPE00/Kilner00.html

i.e. thou shall not kill is a human instinct. Even in battle when everyone knows they can get away with it, people do not kill as a general rule. We have to physiologically prepare people to kill other people and even then a surprising number don't.

Again this is under war, were killing is encouraged not punished.

People who kill are crazy, immoral what ever you want to call it. Because the fact that it is moral to not killing a moral agent is a universally believes fact. Even those who kill moral agent will tell you that it would have been moral for them to have not killed.

moral_majority
"Wake up!
Right and wrong are relative terms."

So, what is the point of your post? Are you implying that SteveO is wrong? If right and wrong are relative terms, then I would assume that SteveO is right, right?

LNC

Uber
The data you put forth proves nothing. There are those who have no reservations about killing others and, as I stated before, cannot be called immoral or evil for doing so if God does not exist as Mr. Hitchens and others believe. The fact that a percentage of soldiers (who probably were raised with Judeo-Christian ethics) had difficulty committing the act only makes them "weak" in the Godless world that Hitchens imagines.

uber
I don't know what your puerile example has to do with an argument for atheism/agnosticism. You may want to tighten it up a bit and try again.

LNC

Hi Will
I guess we were both listening to the interview with two different set of ideals:

1. Me not being religious but not hating anyone or ridiculing people of faith.

2. You having bad experiences with a handful of people in your life who were religious.

We listened with two sets of ears. I considered Medved fair and Hitchens smarmy, and you felt the opposite! I think it's kind of funny how things like that work out.


Kill vs Murder
A commonly misunderstood fact of the Ten Commandments "Thou Shall Not Kill" really applies murder not warfare. (Hebrew translation)

Admission of an image bearer…

‘This brings me to the challenge that Hitchens has posed in various debates across the country, and which he put forward once again on my radio show. He offers a prize to anyone who can come up with an ethical declaration or behavior that a religious believer could urge or demonstrate that couldn’t equally win endorsement from an ethical atheist.’ –Michael Medved


This challenge is no more than admitting that men are image bearers of the personal God that made them. Though living in a fallen world cursed by the entrance of sin, men still retain their soul which testifies to the righteousness of the Law. This is true of all men without distinction, even the man without the Bible.

Yes, the atheist may agree with the ethic of the golden rule, but he has no power to love the ethic, nor the power to live by it. For example, consider his words spoken against Dr. Falwell on the day of his death. What is spoken reveals the condition of the heart.

How can men be freed from the enslaving power of their sin? Atheism has no answer. They do not even understand the question. Hitchens hangs his hat on naturalism, not realizing that it is nothing but another false religion with no hope of ever addressing the metaphysical questions.

The naturalist has no basis for ethics. The consistent ones will admit they have no ethic except that there are no ethics. We can agree with Hitchens that his religion does poison everything, because its origin is from the father of lies who continues to deceive men and cause them to doubt and then deny the word of God.


'The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and instruction.’ [Proverbs 1:7]


‘The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul; the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.’ [Psalm 19]


‘Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor stands in the path of sinners, nor sits in the seat of the scornful. But his delight is in the law of the Lord, and in His law he meditates day and night.’ [Psalm 1]


the origin of ethics
Steve O writes: "The greater problem is that without God there is no use for ethics"

But even without God, just with biology and population pressure, there is such a thing as self-preservation.

Every being wants to survive, if only to propagate its genes to the next generation. That acts as a natural check on self-destructive behavior. For example, male animals can engage in fierce competition for the right to choose a mate--but the competition is rarely fatal. Evolutionary behavior has set things up so that the loser in a joust gets away alive and may still win some other day. "Mutual assured destruction" of the herd is prevented.

From this, humanity probably continued this instinctive behavior when we first organized into tribes, tens of thousands of years ago: Argue, even fight, but don't murder each other because that hurts the whole tribe. And perhaps this is where essential ethics comes from.

The Golden Rule, the basis of all civilization, is essentially a philosophical prohibition on Mutual Assured Destruction. Because if that happens, the human species is extinct.

One can easily see how other aspects of basic ethics could have arisen by trial and error in primitive tribes. For example, why do we have monogamous marriage? Suppose we didn't, in which case one male would get a harem of all the females. That would lock out all the other males from reproducing, reducing genetic variation. And that's bad for the evolutionary fitness of the species.

The Big Lie
"God/Allah/Elvis forbid that anyone dare to suggest the obvious: that so-called "organized" religion is not only the biggest hoax ever perpetrated on humanity but is also the single most devisive, intolerant, hypocritical and destructive force in all of human history."

Using the most "liberal" statistics:

Russian Soviet SOCIALISM: 60 million murdered.
Chinese Maoist SOCIALISM: 40 million murdered.
Cambodian Khmer Rouge SOCIALISM: 3 million murdered.
German National SOCIALISM: 20 million murdered.
Yugoslavian Titoist SOCIALISM: 1 million murdered.

Leaving out Castroite Cuban SOCIALISM, North Korean SOCIALISM, Vietnamese SOCIALISM...

Anybody see a PATTERN HERE?





I am with Steve O ...
" We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
No creator, no "unalienable" rights. No unalienable rights, "Might makes right".
It is difficult to decide whether a world devoid of religion is good or bad since such a world doesn't exist. There is no control world. As such, the decision is an accounting exercise separating "good" from "bad", then determining whether or not religion was causational. Mr. Hitchens' balance sheet is different from mine. I admit that being Catholic affected my calculations. Hitchens sounds like he has been more affected by religion than he lets on.
As Mr. Medved asks, why would he choose to live here among so many of us believers? Is it only as an evangelist? I do enjoy listening to him, but I won't be buying his book.

Will's Note of Dishonor
Will today: "Note to "YouRepubliFAGS":
I am a proud gay libertarian-leaning liberal.

MUST you mix me in with the "repubs" in your moniker? You make it seem like we're bedmates. You are cheapening & dishonoring my humble gay identity."

Will yesterday: "Maybe she'll [Laura Ingraham] get hit in a terrorist attack. Or raped."

Nothing YRF could ever do or say cheapens or dihonors you as much as your own words have, "Will." And expect me to repost them every time you show your handle on TH.

Kill the Messenger
Beging relatively new to Townhall, I am amazed at the comments.

Generally, within the first several minutes, the comments degenerate into name-calling and insults. The point of the article is lost when the comments tear apart the writer and each other, with little attention given to the original article.

In this case, the debate between Medved and his guest became secondary to dicussing Medved's intelligence, or debating skills, or belief in the Ten Commandments.

Then we get completely off-the-wall comments like, "Now we have nutcases like Medved calling for the head of an author who questions the Bible." Nutcases? Where did Medved say anything close to this?

What about debating the

God Loves A Good War
In cases where we get into these discussions of how much better are Christians in terms of morals and conduct, I usually ask my SOUTHERN friends the following question to help me sort things out: If God takes the side of the moral, devout, god-fearing Christians and he helps them win their wars, then which side did God support in the Civil War in the USA?

I also usually ask a follow-up question: If the NORTH won the Civil War, was it because of his vengeance on the evils of the SOUTH?

Conversation usually turns to non-religious topics at that point.

Regards

God Loves A Good War
"If God takes the side of the moral, devout, God-fearing Christians and he helps them win their wars, then which side did God support in the Civil War in the USA?"

In the Old Testament, one of God's servants meets an angel shortly before battle. The servant asks which side the angel is on. The angel replies that he is on neither side.

True Christians pray that God will support their cause, not for personal gain or national pride, but so that God's name will be glorified.

The self preservation argument..
The ethics from self-preservation argument falls apart pretty quickly when you think about it for a moment.

The world ( or the neighborhood or this very coffee shop ) might be better preserved (and greatly improved even) if I were to go on a sudden, targeted killing spree. I see around me weak, inefficient, unruly, and downright obnoxious folk who, if they make any contribution at all, are a negative presence, a drain upon resources I could make use of. I can readily recondition this place with nothing more than a shotgun or even just a few well-aimed palm thrusts.

Pure reason dictates that if mean survival is at the base of all ethics and morality, then the most moral man is the one with the best aim and the most bullets.

On the other hand, I see a couple women here who would probably produce some good, strong progeny to propel my genes well into the far-flung future. Perhaps I should just take them, make them serve this Darwinian need.

If strength is the primal virtue and survival the primary value, then I am sinning when I avoid such Adlerian enterprises.

Clearly, morality has some other origin and some other purpose, because I think we all know how wrong such aggression predation would be.

eyeswideopen
The never-ending, Catch .22 issue here is that if a person is profoundly religious, in most cases referring to cold, hard historical fact and basic logic, reason and science do no good. That's because the catch-all "easy" response is always "you have to take it on faith."

To which I say, no - you don't. We can't even agree or even believe half of what our own intelligence community fed us regarding Iraq/WMD. And this from the most "advanced" stage of human civilization.

But, because a bunch of sheep-hearders going on 3,000 years ago invented a bunch of fairy tales to help them sleep at night, we're supposed to jump on the "god train." Gimme a break!

By that logic, why would the deities of the Greeks/Romans be any less plausible than the protypical, organized religion rhetoric? People like to be comforted, to think at the end of it all the "soul" continues on.

Well, that's a cozy, comforting notion for sure, but it doesn't necessarily make it "true." Yet millions have been brainwashed by these old-wives tales that have handed down, generation after generation, started by people who didn't have the intelligence/sense to move out of the burning desert and not defecate in their own water supply!

And, kudos to whomever brought in the numbers slaughtered by such stalwart world citizens as Pol Pot, Hitler, etc. Without doing a complete historical census, perhaps the 20th Century IS indeed the big "winner" in the "most slaughtered" contest. However, keep in mind the quantam leap in technolgies that made it possible. It still doesn't change the fact that organized religion as a FORCE in history has been the biggest culprit in promoting intolerance, ignorance and death.

Come on... you REALLY think if RPGs, tanks etc had been available during the Crusades that they wouldn't been implemented...?

Starspangledblogger
--I was just about to raise the same point. We would have a better chance of surviving if we eliminated the handicapped, infirm, and elderly, but we have determined these actions to be immoral. It seems that our morality runs counter to survival.

--The common response to "The US is a Christian nation" is to produce a few quotes from various Founders concerning religion. This is all well and good since we owe them a great deal for articulating our founding principles. But Hitchens and others make the mistake of thinking this is a top down nation.
The Founders set the rules for representative government, but the people govern themselves. If you have democratically elected representative government and combine that with an overwhelmingly Christian population, you will get a government influenced by religious values at all levels (local, state, and federal). Remember, there was more than just the Founders. There were early Congressmen, governors, state reps, judges, etc. etc. And these people were largely Christian. Also, we also must view a nation as more than just its government. Think of societal and cultural norms. In the US, these have largely been products of shared faith.

--One final point. Hitchens rather annoyingly claims "Science and Reason" for the atheists, as if they have owned science throughout history. People such as him discuss the Classic philosophers and post-Enlightenment thinkers when talking Western science while ignorning everything in between. W

Who maintained the universities?
Why was I taught math by a Jesuit?
Why do we have so many names of people (Newton being a giant among them; Pasteur another) who combined belief in God with scientific inquiry?

Oh, here comes the Galileo tale...

eyeswideopen
"However, keep in mind the quantam leap in technolgies that made it possible. It still doesn't change the fact that organized religion as a FORCE in history has been the biggest culprit in promoting intolerance, ignorance and death."

What a snoozer this one is!

Humanity is the culprit. Humans are beings capable of good but prone to more easily do bad. That's something that religions have managed to articulate. Look at the flipside. There is no atheist movement that has inspired human beings to do good as much as faith in Christ.

Atheists often argue that religion should be eliminated because of the evils it has caused. Why go halfway? Just eliminate humanity, the true FORCE behind these evils.

I know one thing, Michael...
...you SHOULD have pressed Hitchens on his book's `inaccuracies`.

But maybe you were afraid he'd turn your criticisms on their head with a cool, calm and well thought out response.

Hitch does have a tendency to do that.

I listened to your show . . .
And Hitchens destroyed you, as he destroys every single theist he debates. You should have pressed him on the book's "inaccuracies," to hear brilliant insight into the religion to claim to understand.

Also, most Americans may be Christians, but we have a secular state. The government is separate from religion and I thank the brilliance of our founders(many of whom were not Christians, but deists) that they had the foresight to prevent our Presidents and Congresses from interfering in our spiritual life.

Husker1 & Will
Husker: Welcome to a very intelligent and thought provoking Michael Medved article. It seems he brings on many fanatics who despise him, so what you see here is nothing unusual. They will attack Medved with the same rantings, and never broach the subject in thoughtful discourse. It's sad.

Will: I must say, I'm pretty disappointed in your Laura Ingram comment, my liberal friend. I know you have the right not to like her, and that is fine, but to say things like that are pretty lame.

Put it this way, I hate Michael Moore probably more than you despise Laura. I think he's a bloated phoney. I never called out that I wished him death or rape. Sheesh, Will....

There's just so much anger from the left, the gays, the atheists.....If we do not walk and talk and think in linkstep with you, it seems like it gives you all cart blanche to spew this crap at us, because you happen to think you're right. Do you know that recently my mother and father have disowned me because I do not believe in social healthcare? Got the email from my dad he believes we should no longer speak anymore 4 days ago. My tolerant leftist parents.....

So yeah, maybe you've come across jerks in your life, so have we all. So maybe someone made fun of how you felt about something important, so have we all.

So maybe instead of mirroring that behavior you dislike when it happens to you, maybe try being the opposite? Sorry for the preachiness, but I've had it.

Hitchens vs God
God 1 - Hitchens 0

Stand by for eternity

Medved
anowrast writes: Wednesday, July, 11, 2007 4:28 PM
I listened to your show . . .
And Hitchens destroyed you, as he destroys every single theist he debates. You should have pressed him on the book's "inaccuracies," to hear brilliant insight into the religion to claim to understand.

Also, most Americans may be Christians, but we have a secular state. The government is separate from religion and I thank the brilliance of our founders(many of whom were not Christians, but deists) that they had the foresight to prevent our Presidents and Congresses from interfering in our spiritual life.



Medved had NO BUISNESS debating Hitch on behalf of Christians. He is no Christian apologist, let alone an apologist that is well read enough to go head to head with one of atheisms most popular writers. Id like to see Hitch go head to head with a real Christian apologist, we will see who destroys who then. Medved, stick to politics and smaller Christian debates. I am a Christian all the way, but i would not publicly take on Hitchens unless i had studied the arguments for myself, and Christian apology was my passion. You embarrassed yourself. It isnt because you did not bring your A game, its because you dont have an A game for this topic.

Medved vs. Hitchens - and the winner is?
Excellent article... I listened to the two hour debate on Medved's radio show between Hitchens and Medved; very entertaining. I believe Hitchens actually (for the first time, possibly) lost a debate. At best, he only attained a stalemate with Medved.

I do believe Christopher Hitchens may be suffering from some sort of degenerative mental disorder (though I certainly hope I'm wrong). He actually described infant male circumcision as "genital mutilation". If he had not demonstrated such great intellectual prowess in the past, I would think he was some sort of idiot for that statement alone.

But the most quizzical part of the debate was when Hitchens threatened to hang up on Medved. If you can get the podcast and listen to it, it's great radio!!


Circumcision? Why?
If Hitchens is as wrong as you say, and if God is so great, why would anyone need to be circumcised? Is this anything less than desecration of God's own creation? Or did He just put the foreskin there so that we could lop it off?

Truthteller, you, too? How sad...
Circumcision is minor elective surgery; nothing more. To label it as negative in any way lowers your IQ about ten points. Stop it!

DocNoleCat..
Excellent job. You pointed out why FDR & the Democrats support the socialist faction communism vs. naziism - communists killed far more than did nazis.

getting human nature wrong
"Humans are beings capable of good but prone to more easily do bad."

That premise is falls. i.e. the link I posted above regarding peoples
inhibitions to kill during war. There are many more... Read "THE
BRIGHTER SIDE OF HUMAN NATURE: Altruism and Empathy in Everyday Life"
http://www.alfiekohn.org/books.htm

The fact we are social animals. Another word for evil is anti social.
To be anti social is to defy our very nature. Can humans do evil? Yes.
But the facts demonstrate that humans, as a class, must be put into
artificial situation in which they are rewarded for acting anti social
or punished for not acting anti social, and even then they tend to act
socially.

Consider the lengths to which the military must go to create a killer.

This is simply one more demonstration of where religion, specifically
Christianity, has got it all wrong.

Chris
To totally miss the point lowers your IQ to about 0.

Nothing in my post characterizes circumcision as either negative or positive. But it does suggest that the practice of surgically altering the body to make it better is a tad inconsistent with the notion that a great God created the body in the first place. Unless you want to get even more delusional and claim that God put the surgically-removed part there just so that we would surgically remove it.

will
totally. I think half the conceptions around the "with out god one can't be moral." have to do with the idea of sin, and a basic misunderstanding of sin.

Sin after all has nothing to do with morality. Sin has to do with closeness to god. To sin is to be apart from god. That fact is that the old and new testaments don't tell you to not kill because if is immoral, they say don't kill because it separates you from god.

Which basically means you can do pretty much anything immoral you want, as long as you don't sin, according to the new and old testaments.

Hitchens
Hitchens is a well educated moron, If it was not for religion mankind as a whole would never have progressed to were we are today. It is the belief in something that propagates the evolution of mankind.If no morality existed at the beginning of time then the organism called man would have never evolved. So for him to say religion poisons everything is clearly his own admition that he feels guilty not having faith in anything. I wonder how hitchens would think of God if his homeland would have just gave up against Germany, it was their faith in God that kept them fighting against the evil Nazi,without it hitchens would not have been born.He is an ungreatful negative minded loser who profits from immoral belief.

Shakespeare said it best
Much Ado About Nothing

and
Nothing anyone says is going to have any effect on hitchens and I for one would not be surprised if he is reading these words of wit (remember the poem on the wall?) and so by degrees one comes to the question - WGAF?

He is gonna do what he is gonna do and NOTHING anyone here says pro or con makes any difference, in fact I wouldn't be surprised if there is a clause in his contract that if he stirs up enough of a fuss and a direct connection can be made between that and INCREASED sales he makes even MORE money, and everybody has to worship SOMETHING, don't they?

Will, Truthteller & Uber
You didn't go to my Catholic school.

"Where 'god' came from is the same place art & literature came from.....they are constructs of the mind." So .. what constructed the universe? I don't understand and say God. You claim the universe was either eternal or just came to be ... poof. If you think your explanation is superior, so be it.

"If Hitchens is as wrong as you say, and if God is so great, why would anyone need to be circumcised?" God had his reasons ... perhaps as an advantage to His chosen people ... as was avoiding shellfish and pork.

In Catholic school, I was taught that since man was made in God's image, humans are good but corruptible.

I was also taught that sex was a precious gift from God and only to be shared within sacramental marriage. This is just good policy. The traditional family is the best way to raise kids.

Telling a kid that God loves them and that they have value because they are God's creation is a good message for 4 year old kids. Scaring kids about sex, among other things, is dated, but what parents used to do. Some still do it. It used to work better when Leave it to Beaver was on TV and before Great Society.

"Immoral" and "sinful" are synonomous for Christians. I think you meant to say you can do anything immoral as long as it isn't illegal.

Humans are social animals, but we don't have to be anymore thanks to technology. We don't have to rely on family, friends or religion. We can rely on our income, insurance and government.

Thinker and Civil War Revisited
Independent Thinker said: "...I wonder how hitchens would think of God if his homeland would have just gave up against Germany, it was their faith in God that kept them fighting against the evil Nazi..."

Actually, Roman Catholic priests blessed Nazi troops before they went off to war against the Allied troops, including Roman Catholics fighting for the Allies. Pope Pius XII did nothing about it. In fact, he went out of his way to NOT anger the Nazis for fear they would destroy the Vatican. He was asked many times by Jewish rabbis, English ministers, American RC clergy, and politicians of every stripe on the Allied side of the war to just say or do anything against the Nazis, or at least call out the atrocities being waged against the Jews (he knew as early as 1942 of the concentration camps). Pius XII never did anything, claiming (like Husker1 does above with a passage attributed to an angel ) that he could not take sides. I'm sure the dead Jews appreciated his not taking sides.

And, I'm also curious about Husker1's answer concerning the Civil War. He/she said "True Christians pray that God will support their cause, not for personal gain or national pride, but so that God's name will be glorified."

If that's so, then with Christians on both the sides of the Civil War killing each other in huge numbers, the glory in the name of the Lord must've REALLY been seen by God as quite incredible. 600,000 dead is a LOT of glorification to the Lord.

Have I got that correct?

Regards

Very, very interesting...
Medved wrote (re the "kindness gap," point #5): "On the air, Hitchens answered this challenge by reminding the audience that many ardent believers argue that all the irreligious will end up with the torments of hell, so they don’t need to specifically indict or denounce one outspoken author."


Ironic. Hitchens may have come up with an outstanding explanation for why a belief in hell is a good thing.

He apparently believes that if a person believes there is a hell for the wicked, it creates a psychological state in which it's possible to act kindly toward the wicked while they're still living.

This sounds like a positive social advantage to believing in a hell, to me. That seems the opposite of "poisoning," to me.

Handy, you say ...
"I’ll try to explain why Christians have more in common with socialists and Islamists than they do with capitalists and real Americans."

We Catholics are socialists. Christ was a socialist, but too many Catholics confuse personal giving with government giving.

The attack on Mother Theresa was pretty low. Live and let live? I think Mother Theresa bothers people because she makes them feel guilty. If you admit you feel guilty, you could be a closet Catholic.

Why Atheist Books Are So Popular
Once upon a time, Christian religious beliefs were mandated and required by Law. France, Germany, England (before Henry VIII) and virtually all the romantic countries extending to the Baltic states were officially Roman Catholic. The Church WAS the law as observed by Kings and freemen alike. Belief in the RC Church was as required as we here in the US are under the powers of Federal, State, and Local laws.

Then, at some point, the secular state (chiefly in the form of the United States) decoupled the law from the control of The Church and placed it in the hands of secular authorities, essentially and finally "rendering unto Caesar what is Caesar's"

With that decoupling, came a slow but inexorable rise in belief systems that strayed from official Church teachings. Culture and custom continued to have the effect of keeping people close to the churches, but wars (and especially WWI) seemed to drive people away from religion in greater numbers. In Europe, church attendance began a decline that has continued to this day, such that Benedict shrilly tries to drive folks back to his ancient church by chastisement -- as if a sermon from a fussy old scold will work.

And I contend that atheism has been on a slow, rolling ascent that gathers more steam every day. Religion relies on too many superstitions to explain anything. They've been consistently against any kind of modernization. For example, the Pope (John Paul II) considered condoms worse for mankind than AIDS.

Incredible.

Handy, please don't be ridiculous
Handy wrote: "These are curious obsessions for anyone who is truly interested in defending the existence of a supreme being."

You can't possibly be this obtuse.

Why would a major columnist even bother to mention Hitchens' book, or other books by atheists voicing their intense anti-religious notions, if they hadn't sold a lot of copies?

Surely you understand that all they're doing is explaining why the books caught their attention enough to write a nationally-syndicated column about them, don't you?

This is why I don't bother debating atheists anymore, after almost 30 years of regularly engaging them. The disingenuousness, the viciousness, the illogic masquerading as "science", the misrepresentations (deliberate and not), the sneering, the vulgarity, the straw men... I'd rather spend my time talking to people who are actually interested in reasoned discourse, and I never found atheists to fit that description.

Why Atheist Books Are So Popular
Once upon a time, Christian religious beliefs were mandated and required by Law. France, Germany, England (before Henry VIII) and virtually all the romantic countries extending to the Baltic states were officially Roman Catholic. The Church WAS the law as observed by Kings and freemen alike. Belief in the RC Church was as required as we here in the US are under the powers of Federal, State, and Local laws.

Then, at some point, the secular state (chiefly in the form of the United States) decoupled the law from the control of The Church and placed it in the hands of secular authorities, essentially and finally "rendering unto Caesar what is Caesar's."

With that decoupling, came a slow but inexorable rise in belief systems that strayed from official Church teachings. Culture and custom continued to have the effect of keeping people close to the churches, but wars (and especially WWI) seemed to drive people away from religion in greater numbers. In Europe, church attendance began a decline that has continued to this day, such that Benedict shrilly tries to drive folks back to his ancient church by chastisement -- as if a sermon from a fussy old scold will work.

And I contend that atheism has been on a slow, rolling ascent that gathers more steam every day. Religion relies on too many superstitions to explain anything. They've been consistently against any kind of modernization. For example, the Pope (John Paul II) considered condoms worse for mankind than AIDS.

Incredible.

Where's the Beef?
I'm not surprised to see all the irreligious postings and comments with their dripping vitriol for God, faith, and religion. Hedonism is now the god of society, so why bother with Faith? It can't be seen or felt, according to the Hedonists and atheists, and the people who have it are in a foggy senility. Such is what I gather from atheists and the anti-Christianity-anti-Judaism-anti-God-anti-everything people like Hitchens.

Hitchen's should have a better grasp of his subject before writing a book---but wait, with a better understanding of the subject, he probably wouldn't even write the book. Hitchens obviously has no understanding of religion and what it means [or if he does, he doesn't care for truth] and his book is irrelevant in the modern World---or any World for that matter. Sure it sold a lot of copies. Too many irreligious people out there want something to bolster their indefensible positions with like-minded tripe---never mind that they are often subject to last minute conversions. When faced with death, I wonder if Mr Hitchens will remain as resolute an atheist as he seems now?

Then again, perhaps his reason for this book of indefensible positions is pure fear, fear that he's so wrong, his entry into the great beyond will be a bit downhill; fear that his great intellect has gone the way of the Dodo bird; fear that his denial of science and faith and the beauty surrounding him might be things to believe in after all.

There's one sentiment you'll never hear from Christopher Hitchens and his 'associates.' And they'll hate it when I say it. But I have hope for him and them: God Bless Us, Everyone.

uber
uber writes: Wednesday, July, 11, 2007 6:48 PM
will
totally. I think half the conceptions around the "with out god one can't be moral." have to do with the idea of sin, and a basic misunderstanding of sin.

Sin after all has nothing to do with morality. Sin has to do with closeness to god. To sin is to be apart from god. That fact is that the old and new testaments don't tell you to not kill because if is immoral, they say don't kill because it separates you from god.

Which basically means you can do pretty much anything immoral you want, as long as you don't sin, according to the new and old testaments


If you want to put some verses out there to back up these insane claims, feel free, but it does nothing for credibility to offer biased opinion.

whatzamattayou got it backwards
whatzamattayou describes western political history in these terms:

"the secular state (chiefly in the form of the United States) decoupled the law from the control of The Church and placed it in the hands of secular authorities... With that decoupling, came a slow but inexorable rise in belief systems that strayed from official Church teachings."

This is exactly backwards.

It was the rise in belief systems that strayed from official Church teachings (namely, Protestantism) that created the thinking that resulted in the decoupling of the government from the Church, and -- he ignores this part -- the Church from the government.

Atheists love to talk of "the secular state", while trying to ignore the fact that this "secular state" was the creation of explicitly Protestant thinkers, who were consciously, deliberately, and explicitly applying the logic of their Protestant convictions to the construction of a government.

It was furthermore their explicit intent that private citizens continue to practice their religions devoutly, as the protection from the chaos that would surely follow the creation of a secular government if the populace were not able to maintain moral behavior apart from a theocratic state.

The creation of the "secular state" was anything but a drift away from religion. Quite the contrary; Alexis de Tocqueville correctly identified the US experiment in self-government as the most religious nation on the planet.

Brain not required
Inkling revival said: "The disingenuousness, the viciousness, the illogic masquerading as "science", the misrepresentations (deliberate and not), the sneering, the vulgarity, the straw men...I'd rather spend my time talking to people who are actually interested in reasoned discourse, and I never found atheists to fit that description."

I'm interested in reasoned discourse. I don't call names, use vulgarity, etc. Misrepresentations are in the eye of the beholder, and (more or less) open to interpretation. I'm not sure how to address the comment about illogic. I find Intelligent Design to be a bit illogical. I find Creationism (Adam and Eve begot Cain and Abel. Then what?) to be a bit illogical.

But, I guess you are right. Atheists are, to a person, unreasonable. They keep brining up all those points that disagree with religion. Like that whole helio-centric theory of the solar system when everyone knows The Church has a better answer to how the Sun rises in the east every day. :-D

Wonderful Opportunity to Keep Mouth Shut
but I'll ignore it. By definition, an atheist believes there is no God. In other words, his religion is that God does not exist.
An agnostic believes that the existence or nonexistence of God cannot be proved. He might think it very likely that God exists, or he might think it very unlikely. He is an agnostic on the existence of proof of the existence of God, not on his estimate of the probability that one hypothesis or the other is the correct one.
A theist believes in the existence of God. That is his religion. Generally, depending on which religion he holds, he believes a great many other things as well, none of them susceptible to proof.

Atheistic leeches
Medved wrote: "[Hitchens] offers a prize to anyone who can come up with an ethical declaration or behavior that a religious believer could urge or demonstrate that couldn’t equally win endorsement from an ethical atheist."

This is, of course, a straw man argument. OF COURSE atheists can endorse any ethical idea that has merit. They all grew up in a culture created by a religious system.

Atheism is a parasite religion (and yes, it is a religious system, or its 1st cousin, a philosophical family). It attaches to a major culture created by a another religion, like a leech. It declares that anybody can live by the precepts taught by that culture without having to be a member of the religious system. It can make this claim because the religious system has already so infused the culture that one could believe oneself a three-headed dragon with a PhD in Lizard Aviation, and still manage to behave as the culture teaches people should behave.

The reasonable question that Hitchens should address is not whether he, or any other Westerner, can agree to ethics without becoming Christian or Jewish. The question is whether atheism could ever construct a culture like the West if Christianity had not done it first. Can a culture grow as an ethical culture from scratch? or must it borrow its ethics from something already constructed for it by a religion?

The answer is clearly "No." It's never been done, but that's not because it's never been tried. The Soviet Union, Maoist China, Pol Pot's Cambodia, Castro's Cuba, Ho's Vietnam, were all attempts by visionary thinkers to reconstruct civilization on purely secular terms without resort to religion. The most impressive common element in these experiments is their capacity for deception, tyranny, and murder.

Atheist historians Will and Ariel Durant, in the work that summarizes their composite of two lifetimes' historical study, "The Lessons of History," acknowledge ruefully that there is no instance in history of a culture maintaining moral behavior without the aid of religion. In this, they are a great deal more honest than Mr. Hitchens.

whatzamattayou
"In Europe, church attendance began a decline that has continued to this day ...."

Church attendence declined right before Europeans quit having children, too. Mosque attendence is up, however.

"And I contend that atheism has been on a slow, rolling ascent that gathers more steam every day."

Atheism is only on a rolling ascent in the Western world. Technology and progressive governments make God unnecessary. In the third world, God is ascendant. Atheists need to pick sides whether they want to pull for Christians, Mormons or Muslims. As Tnmccoy shows, most Christians and Mormons pray for atheists.

A Christian's Response:
Hello, everyone--

I understand that many, many people (especially young people) are terribly confused about Christianity. Our humanistic, self-idolizing culture only makes it all the more convenient and simple to reject all religion and thus the entire concept of God. If you are an educated person living in a generation that treasures going against the grain, being avant-garde, and resisting "religious craze" at all costs, then rejecting deity in the name of logic or enlightenment is actually the easy way out. Existentialism, however, has a funny way of convincing people that the path away from God leads to the coffee-house, beret-clad, Hemingway-esque prestige associated with being fabulously non-conformist, unique, and intellectual.

In contrast, belief in God requires a selfless submission to a God who is much more powerful than the microchip, Blackberry, or anything else that we could ever hope to fashion; furthermore, belief in God is not a crutch--it is much easier to conform to an increasingly anti-religious world's standards than to be persecuted for Christian beliefs, often to the point of death (thankfully not in our country). This is what atheists hate--having to submit to a higher power, HAVING to be accountable to someone--anyone who has ever come in contact with a two year old child has seen this syndrome in action.


I could certainly continue for many more lines, but I'll leave it at that for now and respond to any comments.

Just one more fun fact:

For those of you who claim that religion has been the cause for most of the world's violence, consider this: The three greatest mass murderers of the twentieth century--the bloodiest one yet--were staunch athiests (and evolutionists, naturally): Hitler, Stalin, and Mao.

God bless you all!


whatzamattayou, thanks
whatzamattayou wrote: "Brain not required."

"Atheists... keep brining up all those points that disagree with religion. Like that whole helio-centric theory of the solar system when everyone knows The Church has a better answer to how the Sun rises in the east every day. :-D"

Yep. This is exactly the sort of disingenuous crap that's driven me out of attempting reasoned discourse with atheists, after 30 years of trying. Thank you for illustrating so clearly.

hello again...
*atheists

whatzamattayou, thanks
whatzamattayou wrote: "Brain not required."

Yep. That's exactly the sort of talk that has driven me out of attempting reasoned discourse with atheists, after 30 years of trying. Thank you for illustrating so clearly.

Christianity is responsible for the building of the most thoroughly educated culture in the history of the planet. It was in the Christian West, and in no other culture, that progressive science, self-government, universal literacy, the abolition of slavery, and the inherent dignity of the common man were born. The Church established all the major learning centers of Europe and the Americas. Christianity is responsible for nearly all the major works of the West.

I, myself, have spent thirty years educating myself (after being thoroughly disappointed by the secular university that claimed to educate me but instead subsidized four years of unincumbered irresponsibility) in art, music, logic, rhetoric, economics, theology, physics, history, and geography.

But I'm religious. Ergo, I don't have a brain.

Nice.

Have a great life, whatzamattayou. Bye.

dern
I thought TH had munged my first post to whatzamattayou, so I reconstructed it. And now there are two of them.

Sorry to waste the bandwidth, folks. My bad.

Not backwards, too succinct
Inkling says: "...Atheists love to talk of "the secular state", while trying to ignore the fact that this "secular state" was the creation of explicitly Protestant thinkers, who were consciously, deliberately, and explicitly applying the logic of their Protestant convictions to the construction of a government...."

All absolutely true. I was not trying to write the complete history of the rise of atheism. I agree with his/her point. (BTW, did you see where Pope Benedict just reiterated that The Catholic Church is the one true church? Once more you Protestants are on the outs with Rome...)

And, sorry about the "Brain Not Required" thing, I was talking about myself.

My point would be better stated that the decoupling of church and state (to address both sides of the point) allowed atheism to rise because folks who don't believe in the existence of God were no longer "afraid of the Spanish Inquisition". And certainly, I would agree that the US is a very religious country, despite the church/state separation.

But, my experience is that I'm not compelled to go to church. I do go occasionally (albeit less and less) but I find myself troubled that God permitted The Holocaust, the wars of the last century or so, etc. I have a hard time believing that centuries of Chinese people went to hell because they didn't know about and accept Christ as their savior. And I don't agree, despite what Benedict says, that The RC Church is the one true Church only through which salvation will be attained.

If compelled to go to church now (if it were the law), I might actually do so to avoid being thrown in jail. But I would not possess a belief any more than I do now.

But, let's get back to the debate I want to have. Did the North's Christians outpray the South's Christians during the Civil War? After all, they both had Christian preachers sermonizing that they side of the war was the most just.

Or was the South's culture just too evil to succeed in the eyes of God?


Read the book, didn't hear the interview
Hitchens is a snark-artist who makes plenty of factual errors in his book, but presents them in such a way that you feel like an idiot trying to refute them. I actually liked his writing, but his observations galled me.

For one thing, he groups all persons of faith together with all religious folks, apparently not understanding the difference. My largest objection was that he used an entire chapter calling those persons of faith who raise their children in that faith child abusers, but then insists he's not trying to tell us how to raise our children. Oh, yeah, we Christians are feeling the love! NOT!

If you want to read a fuller description of my observations on his book, check out my blog.

jeff
“So .. what constructed the universe? I don't understand and say God. You claim the universe was either eternal or just came to be ... poof. If you think your explanation is superior, so be it.”

I don’t know. I don’t pretend to know. What I do know it that the old and new testaments are not reliable sources of knowledge.

I also believe that the scientific method has shown itself to be amazingly robust methodology for knowledge acquisition.

“God had his reasons ... perhaps as an advantage to His chosen people ... as was avoiding shellfish and pork.”

I don’t understand what you are saying.

“In Catholic school, I was taught that since man was made in God's image, humans are good but corruptible.”

Ok?

“I was also taught that sex was a precious gift from God and only to be shared within sacramental marriage.”

Ok?

“This is just good policy. The traditional family is the best way to raise kids.”

Why? Why is the “traditional family” a better way of raising kids than any other loving, caring community? Is it the western European “traditional family” which is best? Is it the 1950 “traditional family” nuclear family which is best? Or is a “traditional family” structure in Africa the best. Or a “traditional family” which is extended the best. Of is it Abrahams “traditional family” of many wives which is the best?

“Telling a kid that God loves them and that they have value because they are God's creation is a good message for 4 year old kids.”

Isn’t it better for children to know that they have value and are loved even with out god? What if they grow to disbelieve god? Should they then feel as if they have no value?

“Scaring kids about sex, among other things, is dated, but what parents used to do. Some still do it. It used to work better when Leave it to Beaver was on TV and before Great Society.”

Really? Is that what the statistics show?

“"Immoral" and "sinful" are synonymous for Christians. I think you meant to say you can do anything immoral as long as it isn't illegal.”

I meant to say what I said. Morality predates Christianity. The fact that Christians conflate to ideas may well explain their confusion, but does not relive them from the fact that if god asks them to sacrifice their children to him, while the act itself would be immoral, for Christians not to do so would be a sin. Clearly immorality and sin are not the same.

“Humans are social animals, but we don't have to be anymore thanks to technology. We don't have to rely on family, friends or religion. We can rely on our income, insurance and government.”

These are social institutions. Imagine your self in an Insurance pool of one, or to receive a currency as income that no one else accepts, or to be the only citizen, i.e. a government of one.


Not very meaningful. We are not less social as a result of modernity, but more so. We are more socially connected. Conservatism is among other thins a reaction to this greater interconnectedness. It is a push back against the influence of other cultures infiltration. That is true whether you are a communist in the old USSR or a Muslim in the Middle east of a Christian in the US…

Every were conservatism are pushing back. The question is will conservatives in the US do what Conservatives in Afghanistan do, i.e. kill the goose that lade the golden egg. I.e. the enlightenment.

whatzamattayou
Ok, apology accepted, and I'll bite. (I reserve the right to express regret later.)

You ask: "Did the North's Christians outpray the South's Christians during the Civil War? After all, they both had Christian preachers sermonizing that they side of the war was the most just."

Speaking theologically, I think I'd say that God answered the most virtuous parts of all prayers on both sides.

Prayer is a tough topic, because even to the theologically literate -- ESPECIALLY to the theologically literate -- it's not entirely clear why God insists that we do it. It's not like He needs our advice.

My reading and personal experience make me think that prayer is at least three separate things:

1) God lets us participate. Like a parent allowing his/her three-year-old to engage the parking brake on the car when it stops, God lets us place just enough of our hands on the controls of the universe to feel as though we're involved. He retains control of the vehicle.

2) God converses with us. Like a parent engaging he/her seven-year-old in a discussion of why policemen are important, God draws us out and teaches us at the same time.

3) God infuses us with His presence. There's a mystical element in prayer, in which we participate in a spiritual exercise and merge with Him, without really understanding what "spirit" is.

As to prayers like "God, let us send their heathen souls to hell where they belong" (yeah, I saw "We Were Soldiers" too) I think it's more or less the case that God answers the best intent of our righteous impulses and discards the chaff that we encase it in. So in the "send their heathen souls" prayer, He might honor the request that the soldier be able to do his own job excellently, and forgive him the intolerance toward the other soldier. But that's just a guess. I honestly don't know.

uber
"I also believe that the scientific method has shown itself to be amazingly robust methodology for knowledge acquisition."

Yes, it is. And since it's the product of the thoroughly Christian West, I'll speak on behalf of Christianity and say, "You're welcome."

Only, I recommend that you recognize the limitations of the scientific method. It's an excellent means of deducing mechanical facts about our three-dimensional-plus-unidirectional-time universe. It says absolutely nothing about the purpose or meaning of that universe, nor can it, because that's not its focus.

If you take the scientific method to be the means by which ALL knowledge can be obtained, you're not practicing science, you're articulating a presupposition of a philosophical system called "scientific materialism." That's not science, it's philosophy.

I won't answer will,
...because he's really not open to reasonable discussion, but for anybody who's interested in the topic, allow me to observe that will is pretty thoroughly ignorant of the history of the West, and misrepresents it horribly. The history of science and education in the West IS the history of religion. The Church established all the major institutions of learning in Europe and the Americas, and this continued long after the Renaissance and the Enlightenment (by the way, note that both "renaissance" and "enlightenment" were self-congratulatory self-descriptions by both movements, not actual assessments by later historians.) The Christian West produced progressive general science where no other culture did, and all the early scientists were pursuing their understanding of Christianity when they performed their experiments. Atheists seize on the few, notable instances of tussles between scientists and the Church to obscure the historical fact that in most instances, science and the Church have progressed hand-in-hand.

Science did not manage to depart from religion until the mid-19th century, when Darwin made it possible for an atheist to fashion himself scientific; and even thereafter, lots of major scientific breakthroughs continue to flow from religious scientists.

There is no inherent conflict between science and religion; quite the contrary. It's the secular progressives who have systematically twisted science into a club to beat down their political opponents, producing dishonest science as the tool of the state and of leftist politicians. Without the fear of God driving the quest for truth, truth becomes a pliable tool in the hands of the powerful to maintain control. Science will not survive the demise of Christianity in the West; it will become, and is already becoming, corrupt.

inkling_revival
you mean like Buddha, Aristotle, Alhazen, Avicenna, Averroes or Epicurus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empiricism#Early_forms_of_empiricism

Christianities main contribution to the enlightenment was to burn the books of Greek philosophy that provided the backbone of modern science.

It was Epicurus, the grandfather of Atheism, who is credited with theories which took Christians two thousand years to rediscover. Ideas such as the atom.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epicureanism#Epicurean_Physics

Last post here on this topic
Inkling, I understand and agree that civility is important in discourse and I am sincere in my apology.

My own story is that my faith declined as I got older and understood the world (and history) better.

I find it hard to believe God would permit The Holocaust, the US Civil War, WWI, WWII, and all the cruelty we see around us today. For in my minds eye, a loving God would not have permitted those things to happen to the creatures he loved so much he sent his son to redeem them.

It's hard for me to see how Christians on both sides of the Civil War invoked God as being on their side.

It's hard for me to understand how Pope Pius XII kept his mouth shut for fear of offending the Nazis, when so many people, great and small, called out to him to make the slightest utterance against the evil the Nazis were perpetrating on the Jews.

It's hard for me to understand the recruiting efforts undertaken during the Crusades that assured salvation to every soldier who fought the Muslims. It's hard for me to understand how the Crusaders that got sidetracked and invaded Constantinople and killed all their fellow Christians.

To me, these things (and this is a really small subset of the list) argue against the existence of God. Perhaps I'm looking for the existence of a genial God that doesn't exist. But if what I was taught about Jesus in RC grade school is correct, the things I mention above don't correspond with that God.

And, along with these huge doubts about the existence of God in context of these historic events, facts easily confirmed by science (age of the universe as calculated by the KNOWN distances to any number of reference stars) prove the creation stories in the Bible are not to be taken seriously.

Now, I find those who say that the Bible stories are parables to be fairly in line with my way of thinking. But once you come around to accepting the idea that the Bible is NOT accurate, and you throw in all these horrific events happening on the watch of a just God, you might be able to see why I've "wandered off the reservation" in terms of religion.

I respect those who conduct themselves in accordance with religious morals. I just no longer deem religion necessary to my own behavior, because I feel that I a moral person. One might attribute that to my upbringing, but I now find our western Christian religious tenants to be inaccurate at best, and wholly off in the wrong direction at worst.

The God I would believe in would not allow his vehicle (The Pope) to forbid the use of condoms that could've prevented a whole generation of children to be orphaned.

Robert
"Christianity went through its Moslem phase...aka where viewpoints tht did not correspond to the established church dogma were "suppressed". See Galileo."

I find it interesting that the "christian experience" began around the same timeframe as the Moslem doys today 1400 years after origination. Not sceince by any means but a bit of perspective

Robert
I find it telling, concerning atheists' claim that Christianity opposes science and learning, that they all focus on the same fellow, Galileo.

Christianity is 2000 years old, and Judaism predated it by a good 2000 years or so. Science is about 500 years old in the West, but learning is about as old as mankind. Surely, if science and religion have been true enemies for all that time, you'd be able to come up with more than Galileo as examples of religion and science being at odds.

The fact that you don't have other examples logically says one of two things: 1) there ARE no other major examples (ergo your claims are just false); or 2) you don't KNOW any other examples (ergo you're ignorant, and your claims are irrelevant.)

Either way, the claims of atheists that religion and science are at odds is nothing to worry about, nor anything to take seriously.

Oh, by the way: the Church's objection to Galileo was not that he was wrong, nor that he was being scientific, nor that he was blaspheming or anything like that. It was that his teaching was upsetting the rank and file, and that he should be more discrete about how he broadcast his opinions. They didn't object because he was a scientist, they objected because he was a loudmouth. Just fyi.

whatzamattayou
First of all, thank you for the respectful tone.

Second, I sympathize with your point of view. My own story is actually similar to yours, except that instead of adjusting to greater knowledge and awareness of the state of the world and the state of science by walking away, I adjusted by altering my understanding. I'm more thoroughly devoted to Christ now than I was when I first converted at the age of 19 (I was a Jewish atheist before that), but I'm not a good Evangelical anymore, not really even close.

I understood early on that hardship was part of the design of the universe. I've viewed the purpose of our universe for some time as the spiritual equivalent of LA Fitness, a place where we grow strong by facing resistance.

I understand that it's difficult to factor the Holocaust into that view, or the slaughter in Rwanda. Either the gym's gone berserk, or we're supposed to get one helluva lot stronger than we thought we needed to. I believe it's the latter; and I should add that the difficulty of reconciling the extremes of evil with our view of Christ is part of the resistance that makes us strong, if we let it train us.

I think it's not possible to appreciate the depth of love we can experience until we've seen the face of depravity. It's also the case that some of the finest acts of human beings have occurred during some of the darkest episodes. Ordinary times don't reveal what we're made of; extraordinary times do.

It's not accidental that the apex of history combined the most astonishing sacrifice of love possible with some of the most extreme brutality. Both are part of the plan. The darkness of the one sets off the light of the other.

I don't expect any of this to sweep you back into faith; it may even put you off a little, I don't know. I'm just being honest with you about how I address these things. I'm not blind; I see the same things you do, and I admit they're hard.

Robert
"we are all born thanks to the God on HIgh (in my belief) for our moment in history at the correct time! but the one regret I have in my life is that I will not see serious spaceflight...I always wanted to see what other intellegent life is like."

Same here on the space flight but I was lucky enough to go high enough to see day turn to night and millions of stars fill the sky. A tease for certain but WOW a pleasure of a lifetime.

Amen to most of what you say. I would be honored to hoist a libation or two with you if you ever get northeast. That could be fun! Google has my info and my e-mail is pretty much public knowledge

Robert
May she live long and prosper

Might be late in the game to ask ...
but why is the bad stuff always attributed to God? We have an enemy out there -- a fallen angel who wants all the glory for himself and who attacks at every chance to thwart our destiny and kill us if possible. Sorry if I'm just "unsophisticated" to believe that is real, but it tends to help me know how to fight in the battles of life. That God "allows" things to happen is part of a plan outside of time. We just can't see the whole picture from here. (Yeah, yeah, I know what's coming.) For me, the times I've grown the most are the very times I was in the crux of some sort of trauma. The life-threatening one changed me forever (for the better for those who know me).

I heard a story once about a wealthy king who fell in love with a simple maiden. If he went in all his pomp in circumstance to her, how would he know if she truly loved him or if she was responding to him out of intimidation? So he came humbly and wooed her; put his heart out there and gave her the opportunity to refuse him. To this day that's how God still works. Some say yes, some no. But we get to choose. Always.

Robert
You really need to go back and read Francis Bacon, or Isaac Newton, or Johannes Kepler, or some of the early western scientists.

The 500 year figure gets us back to Copernicus and his immediate predecessors. There are precursors to modern, Western science before that, I was just being general.

Yes, other cultures had TECHNOLOGY. Lots of it. What other cultures did not have, that the West does have, is a systematic, progressive attempt to discover the underlying rules of our physical world.

The unique contribution of Christianity in this regard is the inference that because God is rational and law-giving, the universe He created is also rational and adheres to consistent laws. Without that assumption -- in a universe governed by arbitrary gods and arbitrary nature -- systematic, progressive inquiry is not possible, because replicability is not possible, and because what you're discovering isn't a law that's transferrable. If the universe is arbitrary, you can't expect the same experiment to produce the same result every time, nor can you expect to find laws that are applicable in other experiments.

With that assumption, though, peer review is possible, replicability is possible, and the progressive building of once conclusion on another is possible. That's what earlier cultures were missing, that the West added.

There's what looks to be a pretty good history of the idea that the universe is rational at http://n4bz.org/gsr/gsr00.htm. I suggest you give it a look. It does not appear to be a religious work in any way. You should learn something from it.

Oh, by the way, Robert...
If you've got better examples than Galileo, please, by all means, give it a whirl. I think when you come down to it, you'll find that your assumptions about what I know and what I don't know are pretty silly. And in any case, if you mention somebody I'm not familiar with, I do know how to use a browser.

oneofus
I don't think you're unsophisticated to believe in the devil. I think he's real. But I also understand that he's God's creation. If God created something that got out of His control, He's not God; ergo, I have to believe that the devil, and sin, and man with all his weakness, are all part of the intentional design of the universe. I find that easier to swallow than the notion that God, the Almighty, created a perfect universe and was surprised when his creations messed it up. I just think He's smarter than that.

I understand if you find my position odd. That's ok, stick to whatever makes it work for you. But I'm actually fitting in with the tradition of some of the more highly regarded mystics with my position. Just fyi.

uber
You err in claiming that Empiricism is at the root of Western science. It isn't. Empiricism is a philosophy that finds Western science agreeable, but it didn't create that science, it just embraced it.

I found Epicurius' physics intriguing, thanks for the link. He seems to have landed pretty close to the truth, which was a remarkable achievement for someone in his culture. Yet, I'm sure you'll agree, his ideas did not catch on, and were not converted into a coherent scientific method. It took the West to accomplish that; and the idea that enabled the West to do it was the idea that the universe is rational, because God is rational.

That's just the way it happened. I'm sorry it doesn't fit your anti-religious biases. Reality's a beotch.

World's greatest killers - by far
Mao (newest book says 100+ million)
Stalin (20-30 Million)
Pol Pot
Hitler (sent Christians to gas chambers)

The Crusades and other 'Christians' with non Biblical behavior don't even come close to the death numbers put up by the athiests of the 20th century.

Judge by the teaching (Jesus) not by the aberration.

Will
You speak so sure of yourself. How did you prove that God doesn't exist? Maybe you can share your evidence with the rest of us. You seem to have come across a proof that has evaded Dawkins, Dennett, Harris, Hitchens, and others. Please enlighten us.

LNC

moral majority
Coming in very late, but the actual Commandment, in Hebrew, says "Thou shalt not do murder", which is very different from "Thou shalt not kill"

If someone is trying to rape my wife and I kill him, I have killed, but I have not done murder.

If this point has been made already, sorry, too many posts for me to read them all...

Robert
I beg to differ with you on your point about Christianity having little to do with the advancement of science, and certainly differ with you regarding Christianity holding science back.

There were and are many great scientists who were also Christians, so the two are not incompatible. Second, I don't think that you want science that is unbridled. We saw the results of that in Nazi Germany and those results were horrifying.

Regarding stem cell research, Christians are not against it unless it requires the taking of innocent life. The most effective forms of stem cell therapy have been from adult stem cells or stem cells taken from amniotic fluid, neither requiring the taking of innocent human life. So, Christians are given a bad rap regarding stem cell research and in the area of science in general.

LNC

Robert
Did you even bother to read what I wrote?

I made a very specific claim regarding the West's contribution to science, and the effect it had on science.

Nothing that you wrote even addresses that, let alone rebuts it.

Go right ahead, recite all the remarkable things other cultures came up with. You're right, they did come up with those things, and yes, they were remarkable. We all know about them. Very cool. Very effective.

Yet, when you're done, you haven't even begun to touch the fact that none of them produced a systematic, progressive approach to understanding the laws of the universe, which is THE unique characteristic of western science, and the reason our technology has surpassed theirs so radically in so short a time. And I know you don't like it, but it really was a Christian idea that made that possible. Because, as it happens, Christianity is TRUE, and therefore applying it produces results that other ideas don't produce.

I'm really sorry that the reality doesn't jibe so very nicely with your anti-religious bigotry, but reality is just like that, sometimes it's inconvenient. Be a man, stop running away from it, and deal with it.

Please pardon me
...but I'm at the limit, here. Atheists are really fond of saying things like "Sorry "inkling" you are banging on a subject that you know almost nothing about." I've spent decades not only studying the history, science, anthropology, theology, philosophy, and culture of the West, but also learning to discover myself, where I've deceived myself and where I need to take extra effort to overcome weaknesses...

... and then to have blithering sh1theads who wouldn't know their anus from a hole in the ground tell me "you just don't know anything" when they're reciting some tiny factoid they heard once on a Nova program is just too galling. My knowledge and point of view is for people who are actually interested in growing. The rest of you, enjoy hell, you'll have earned it and you'll feel right at home. Robert, will, uber, g'day, mates, and good riddance.

Great Article!!!
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." Aristotle should have continued with"....and not get PO'd"

I can accept that atheists have a different set of ethics than I have. I feel no need to argue and a challenge would be silly. I'm convinced that Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world. Why can't atheists accept that I have that position of faith? Why do atheists want to erase my faith? Is my belief in Jesus like a sliver in their finger...a painful reminder that they are not God?

Why can't the atheist, with his high intellegence control his emotions publicly long enough to graciously bid Jerry Falwell good-bye. Is appearing publicly like a rabid dog 'ethical' to an atheist? That's an ethical challenge right there. Is it ethical to an atheist to try and disgrace another person publicly? Taking it a step further by saying Mr. Falwell 'never sincerely held the beliefs he professed'. Thou doth protest too much, methinks.

I think it is unethical to give a mandatory HPV vaccine to 11yo girls.
I think it's unethical to abort babies.
I think it's unethical to use embryonic stem cells for research.

Hitchens is really saying with his ethics challenge that religious people aren't any better than atheists. I totally agree....but I'm saved and he's not!! Judging by his fierce overreactions I think CH knows there is a God.

When I read the old testament I don't see a harsh God. I see a just God. I see His faithfulness to a group of sinners that he chose to reveal Himself through, the fulfillment being Jesus Christ.

You can judge a lot from a person's reaction to information. Why the vitriol toward a dead man? If he's dead to you he's dead. What do you care if I say he's alive?


Will and other dumb fools
I heard the whole interview and only a fool ignorant of the Bible and teachings of Judaism and Christianity would think that hitchens did well. He has no idea what Christianity and Judaism are. For him to compare Khomeini’s calls for Rushdi's head and other religious leaders urging to respect islamic beliefs is pathetic. Jesus never existed? -give me a break. Has Napoleon really ruled France? Based on hitchens' reasoning we can't know for sure. He was rude and obnoxious and this boring English accent! It was too much. He tried to talk over Medved and his threat of hanging up was a joke. He didn’t do his research and yet he tries to argue the point. The most interesting thing to me was that he must think that Medved and other believers are morons. Why wouldn't Medved ask him that straight up? It would set the right tone. This pigheaded elitist lives in this country and he holds over 80% of Americans in disdain.

Liberty and tolerance
hitchens showed total luck of tolerance during the interview and while writing the book. His soul is suffering. Jesus told us that we will be hated just as He was hated. Hitchens does not like it when someone says that HIS ACTIONS WILL CONDEMN HIM TO HELL. It wasn't Fallwell who would decide about what happens after we die. We make the choices and we have to accept the consequences. He does not have to believe in God but he really can't take it that so many people here know God and worship Him. I don't blame him for moving here. Soon England with its Sharia law will not be a safe place for him to go. No worries. They are getting a nice and warm place for him in hell.

Absolutely the LAST post
Inkling wrote: "I find it telling, concerning atheists' claim that Christianity opposes science and learning, that they all focus on the same fellow, Galileo. ... Either way, the claims of atheists that religion and science are at odds is nothing to worry about, nor anything to take seriously."

Well, the elephants in the room are, of course, Darwin and Evolution. If Evolution ever gains acceptance by a mainstream religion, then things really change.

Currently, the Roman Catholic religion is moving slowly but in the direction of acceptance of Evolution. Talk to the Jesuits (or any priest) privately, and you will get an answer that couches Evolution within the sphere of possibility, with a generous dose of divine inspiration / a touch of the Holy Ghost. Akin to God created our earth in such a manner as to allow species to evolve, and it's not altogether impossible that humans descended from apes.

I think as a scientific theory, Evolution is not in violation of RC beliefs in the sense that The RC Church has never taught (or at least not in the last few centuries) that the Bible is the literal truth.

We're a long way from The Church endorsing Evolution, but they currently go to pains to not disagree with it, and to keep their options open.
I'll admit Darwin is not in the door there yet, but he's close. If that happens, and I admit it has not (yet), then we will have a WHOPPER of an example to discuss.

Personally, it always strikes me odd that people don't find Evolution logical. We've all heard the retort "maybe YOU descended from apes, but not me..." to which I always just smile. I must admit I do not feel much in common with those who prefer the Adam and Eve story to the theory of Evolution.

How's that for another example? Submitted respectfully, btw.


god vs jesus vs hitchins
A few comments:
we didn't need god to intervene in 20th century wars. the numbers killed were tiny compared to the span of human history. what we needed was for god to tell adam and eve as he kicked them out of the garden to not drink downstream from where their neighbors sh--ted! think of the millions of lives he would have saved.
the truth is god has always existed and probably always will. Just think, the aboriginal culture of Australia is some 40000 years old! I have no doubt that they believed in god, but you can bet it was not the desert gods of the middle east. I think that there are two grand arguments for the non-existence of god. One is human history, which obviously argues for a god who has always existed, but who was very much invented by man. the other evidence I find extremely compelling, though I know of no one else on the planet who feels the same way. the universe of the ancients was small. by 1920 our universe was the size of the milky way, and then along came Edwin Hubble. Our universe is now so incredibily large that no god could have possibly conceived of it! If Jesus did ascend to heaven some 2000 years ago, I do think that he has not returned as the bible and prophets promised 'cause he has misplaced the earth in this huge universe!

against dogma
"I found Epicurius' physics intriguing, thanks for the link. He seems to have landed pretty close to the truth, which was a remarkable achievement for someone in his culture. Yet, I'm sure you'll agree, his ideas did not catch on, and were not converted into a coherent scientific method. It took the West to accomplish that; and the idea that enabled the West to do it was the idea that the universe is rational, because God is rational."

It did catch on. It caught on for 600 years. It was one of the three biggest schools of thought in Rome and it was wipe out by Christians.

Then their is this problem. Greece is in the "west." I am not saying Christians did not contribute to science, even advance it. But they, as a rule did so at risk of their lives from the church, even as Epicurius advanced his thought risking his life because of the dogma of a diffarent religious establishment.

The problem is not with christianity... That is just my problem, because I live in a country dominated by chritians and their dogma. The problem is not even with religion. The problem is with dogmatic irrationalism.

There are many atheists who are every bit as dogmattically irrational as people of faith. And as people have pointed out they have at times been in the position to orchestrate exterminations and other human ills.

But one irrational dogma is not cured by another. Rather rather it is non dogmatic, rational thought which must prevail.

One of Mother Theresa's favorite quotes
Kent Keith - People Are Often Unreasonable
People are often unreasonable, illogical, and self-centered;
Forgive them anyway.
If you are kind, people may accuse you of selfish, ulterior motives;
Be kind anyway.
If you are successful, you will win some false friends and some true enemies;
Succeed anyway.
If you are honest and frank, people may cheat you;
Be honest and frank anyway.
What you spend years building, someone could destroy overnight;
Build anyway.
If you find serenity and happiness, they may be jealous;
Be happy anyway.
The good you do today, people will often forget tomorrow;
Do good anyway.
Give the world the best you have and it may just never be enough;
Give the world the best you have anyway.

You see, in the final analysis, it's all between you and God;
It was never between you and them anyway.

The Bible
Jesus teaches us that the Bible alone is not enough.

The Gideon Bible left in ever hotel room will convert people. Jesus tells us that we must be fishers of men. The Bible plus us working together.

The reason is that the Bible in general is not believable without seeing the living examples of Christians who are it students.

My one mission on Town Hall has to been to get the right wing to be a better example than Ann Coulter, Michael Medved, etc.

The Christian respondents on this topic need to search within and ask "was I a fisher of men in my conduct? Was I the example of Biblical life? Am I a demonstration of the benefits of Christ for the unsaved to discern as desirable?"

The term "ugly American" was coined to describe Americans as tourists abroad. The term "ugly Christian" can also be used to describe Christians at home. The Christians who are promoting Christianity these days are no less obnoxious than Hitchens himself. There is no love for God on display here that might attract the sinners to his path.




oops
The Gideon Bible left in ever hotel room will NOT convert people.

I like Medved very much
Maybe I'm nit picking, but I can't understand Michael's ascertian that 'god is not great' was an 'entertaining book'. OK, I did not read the book, but I found the author to be like a teacher taking her finger nails and scratching the chalk board, in other words, the Hitchen fellow was not very entertaining. As far as the 'fairness doctrine' goes, Michael Medved is a saint, he always seems to find very annoying guests/callers for his show and he respectfully lets them have their say. And me, I'm a glutton for punishment.

Galileo
Was religious and remained so until his death. He also ridiculed some of Kepler's ideas (elliptical orbits) that turned out to be true.

Galileo's story has become a perfect atheist fable.

uber
"The fact we are social animals. Another word for evil is anti social.
To be anti social is to defy our very nature. Can humans do evil? Yes.
But the facts demonstrate that humans, as a class, must be put into
artificial situation in which they are rewarded for acting anti social
or punished for not acting anti social, and even then they tend to act
socially."

Rehashed noble savage?

In Reply To Starspangledblogger
I havent posted here for a while. But when I read the breathtakingly ridiculous post by you I had to get involved again!

You said:

"Atheists tend to be large-but-broken hearted folk. They feel injured or perhaps abandoned by God, and, lacking any other course for reciprocation, they simply shake their empty fist at the blameless heavens and declare, "YOU ARE DEAD TO ME."

Do we? Gosh. Well Im an atheist and Im very very happy. Lovely wife, two great daughters, job I enjoy.

See what you are doing is trying to understand why we can't believe in what you do because we like some evidence and proof, by relating it to a context you can understand. It must be us that is unhappy, right?

Because the truth be told, you are the one that needs to hold on to something to put your life in context. Not me.

And why would an atheist stand shaking my fist at the "heavens", or space as I like to think of it as you state? When I would be presumably be addressing a place and a being that doesnt exist? Doesnt make any sense does it.

I mean how can I feel "abandoned" by a being that lives in your fantasy world, not my real one?

More likely its people like you who arent happy and cannot make sense of life needs the crutch of that place and being. Right?

Then you say:

"But the emotional heft is still there, which is why Atheists, especially the brand who are smart enough to observe how badly they are losing the intellectual debate, are becoming so frothingly evangelical and aggressive."

I'll skip a full reply to the ludicrous suggestion that we are evangelical and aggressive when that tactic belongs solely to the believer. It helps you make up for your complete lack of any fact based evidence.

You state that we are losing the "intellectual argument". Really? An argument or debate is meant to have two points of view arguing over the validity of evidence and facts. I see none on your side.

A book written by simple folk 2000 years ago and a belief that because we cannot answer absolutely everything, it must logically follow that there is a being up there who did it is not proof. Why isnt it logical it could have been a giant creationist worm living in andromeda? Silly yes. But just as valid.

You say:

"To say, " I can't see it. Therefore it doesn't exist," is neither reasonable nor intelligent."

So to say: "I cant see it therefore it must exist and it must be this" IS logical? I dont think so.

Personally if I want to believe in something I would want to see it, maybe touch it. To pillory us for that is intellectually vacuous on your side.

I do understand why you do it though. Because you have so little evidence to debate, you must try and turn the mirror on us. It must be us that are missing something that is the issue.

The only think missing my friend is you presenting us with some tangible evidence that all the hubris, money and time wasted on religion in this world is worth it. And that is a tall order.

Inkling
I believe God gave satan free choice just like the rest of us. Satan has to go before God -- just like in the Bible when he wanted permission to test Job. That God allows us to learn from our mistakes isn't cruel and unusual punishment. It's the discipline of a loving Father. When I was younger I was given lessons (i.e., punished) for things my siblings did so that we would all learn a lesson. My Father, who was a Marine, would get tears in his eyes during those spankings. Usually those lessons were ones I desperately needed, and they have both given me living examples to pull from, and granted me compassion for others in similar situations. And Job's situation, from thousands of years ago, still inspires me and instructs me on how to act in the midst of adversity. Sometimes stuff just happens. I was horrified when my friend's 2 year old child died of cancer, when my foster sister was murdered by illegal aliens at 8 months pregnant, when my sister was disgnosed with cancer. But, as has been so eloquently written in previous posts, our world is no longer perfect and the light shines more brightly for our having walked through the darkness.

cheers
Thanks Michael, this is the best article I've read yet in response to the current fluff over Hitchen's manifesto of meaningless anger morphing into a so called personality. It's almost embarrassing seeing MM give you the respect of challenging your words and thoughts with such eloquence and consideration. You don't deserve it, as will be demonstrated when you avoid answering the best or most poignant of this article honestly. You'll see. \
Grow up Hitchens, ya big baby! :)

Amazing!
Once again this silly topic attracts more posts than any other article. With our Republic threatened from so many quarters, how can obviously intelligent people go on arguing over such nonsense as the existence or nonexistence of God, or god, whichever you prefer.

whatzamattayou
"I think as a scientific theory, Evolution is not in violation of RC beliefs in the sense that The RC Church has never taught (or at least not in the last few centuries) that the Bible is the literal truth."

The last time I checked the RC church still holds to the literal interpretation of Genesis 1-3, which means that Darwinian evolution is in contradiction to RC teachings and beliefs. I don't know where you get the idea that the RC church has renounced their view of Biblical inerrancy.

If the RC church or any other church were to endorse Darwinian evolution, they would be considered anathema in regard to Biblical truth. DE is based upon a completely materialistic system which rules God out. So-called Theistic evolution is just a repackaged, and might I say, poorly packaged version which holds few real adherents.

"Personally, it always strikes me odd that people don't find Evolution logical. We've all heard the retort "maybe YOU descended from apes, but not me..." to which I always just smile. I must admit I do not feel much in common with those who prefer the Adam and Eve story to the theory of Evolution."

I don't find DE logical since it violates so much logic. How does the personal come from the impersonal? How do we account for a real moral system? When we see the fine tuning of creation, it screams creator/designer. No, logic would not lead me to conclude that we are the product of matter, time, and chance. It also begs the question of where matter came from in the first place.

LNC

God and hitchens
Sloppy generalizations about the Bible will help build a false sense of security for those who want to sin. Nothing new here. Same old lies, new vehicle.

Western Civilization owes its every value and attitude that promotes civility as we enjoy it to its Christian roots. This will always be the truth.

I was amazed helping with funerals as a young lay pastor when non-believing families in their grief would always play up concepts like "forgiving and gentle", or "generous and kind."

I could only conclude from this that Christian attitudes and values are at the base of what our culture believes is the best in human behavior.

Secular progressives just want to remove God's hand from the pen.


a.lone.atheist
"Our universe is now so incredibily large that no god could have possibly conceived of it! If Jesus did ascend to heaven some 2000 years ago, I do think that he has not returned as the bible and prophets promised 'cause he has misplaced the earth in this huge universe!"

I don't see how it follows that because the universe is a certain size, that it rules out the existence of God. Could you tell me what size the universe had to be to rule out the existence of God? In other words, what is God's size limitation in universe creation?

Historians agree that Jesus did live as a historical figure some 2,000 years ago. I think that you need to reread the prophets and the Book of Acts where it says that no man knows when He will return. I would suggest that you do some homework so that you are ready for his return and not left without oil in your lamp (Matt 25).

LNC

Hitchens v. God
I know who will win the last round of this bout-and it will be with a knockout. His efforts bring two analogies to mind. The first is the tale of two grafitti writings:
"God is dead."-Nietzsche
"Nietzsche is dead." -God

The second is the story Sen. Everett Dirksen told about a man who fell out of a 20th floor window. A friend saw him fly past his 15th floor window and he said, "You're looking real good so far, Charlie."

Morals and Evolution
LNC said: "How do we account for a real moral system? "

Interesting issue. Recently, I read an article dealing with scientists who do in depth studies of chimpanzees. These folks have recorded and well documented instances that can be read as these chimps having morals.

The situation is this: two male chimps have a fight. After the fight is over, female chimps that witness the fight will physically go to the losing chimp and essentially "console" him. The females hug and groom the loser. They provide what is, for all outward signs, sympathy. Or empathy if you want.

This behavior is witnessed repeatedly, and in different chimp populations. This is normal behavior for chimps.

Now, I admit that we are taking a leap here. But this observed behavior is a very striking difference from what is observed in other animal populations. We can argue that what the females are doing is not moral behavior. But for my money, it can be the beginnings of moral behavior in the case of, say, an unprovoked attack by the winning male on the losing male.

Now, to the matter about the RC Church and Evolution, the following is straight from the Vatican web site from encyclical "Humani Generis":

"...36. For these reasons the Teaching Authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions, on the part of men experienced in both fields, take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter - for the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God. However, this must be done in such a way that the reasons for both opinions, that is, those favorable and those unfavorable to evolution, be weighed and judged with the necessary seriousness, moderation and measure, and provided that all are prepared to submit to the judgment of the Church, to whom Christ has given the mission of interpreting authentically the Sacred Scriptures and of defending the dogmas of faith.[11] Some however, rashly transgress this liberty of discussion, when they act as if the origin of the human body from pre-existing and living matter were already completely certain and proved by the facts which have been discovered up to now and by reasoning on those facts, and as if there were nothing in the sources of divine revelation which demands the greatest moderation and caution in this question. ..."

whatzamattayou stated that The Church was not in agreement with Evolution, merely that it was moving in that direction. The above text, straight from the Vatican web site, backs up that point.

Amazing...
"What a snoozer this one is!

Humanity is the culprit. Humans are beings capable of good but prone to more easily do bad. That's something that religions have managed to articulate. Look at the flipside. There is no atheist movement that has inspired human beings to do good as much as faith in Christ.

Atheists often argue that religion should be eliminated because of the evils it has caused. Why go halfway? Just eliminate humanity, the true FORCE behind these evils. "

No, the "snoozer" is your non-sensical response!

I love all the nonsense people have posted about how atheism/angosticism are "religions." Folks, get this through your brain-washed skulls: for most of us, it's simply a matter of when you really take an objective look at how religions were formed, the on-going politics combined with observable, emperical scientific data - it's a no-brainer.

I personally consider myself "agnostic," I supppose. Could there be a "god in the sky," as someone eloquently put it?

Of course there could!

But, what are the odds of this? And sorry... "faith" is not a reasonable answer here. The fact of the matter is the movement from multi to a singular "god" concept is a purely human fabrication that stemmed from everything from politics, social condition and even economics.

I'd like to "think" there is something "bigger" than us out there. I - along with science - at this point have no answer to the Big Questions like how did we get here, what existed prior to the Big Bang, is there an end to the universe, etc.

But, it is a lame, weak cop-out to simply throw up your hands and say, well, can't figure it out, it must be some dude up on high in flowing robes with a beard.

And to all those who would lay the benefits/advances of civilisation solely on religion - particularly Christianity - apparently you've forgotten the fact that scientists for centuries had to practice their work in secret for fear of being burned at the stake. That at one point, the Church considered a person to be a "heretic" if they dared suggest the earth might not be flat and that the universe didn't revolve around Earth. Someone also pointed out the excellent point of the ridiculous sham that is the pope actually trying to sway folks from proven methods of avoiding unwanted pregnancy and STDs.

And that's just Christianity. I think the sorry, sad state of the Middle East is a shining (not) example of all the "contributions" Islam has bestowed upon us.

people, not God
Those of you who point to terrible tragedies, failures, and horrific acts carried out by those who represent themselves as "God's people" - the Crusades, sale of indulgences, wars throughout history - are absolutely correct in declaring such behavior unholy. The part you missed is that these atrocities are carried out by people, not God. Two of the fundamental truths of the Christian faith are that:

1. God created human beings with free will, allowing us the opportunity to choose for ourselves between right and wrong, moral or immoral, holy or unholy. It is our own personal decision to follow Him, or reject Him. Any other way would have resulted in people who followed, obeyed and served out of necessity, not choice. It is far more to God's glory for us to choose Him WITHOUT being compelled to do so, simply because we recognize His love for us.

2. Because of this free will, there is the possibility (and inevitability) that people will occasionally choose the unholy, immoral, wrong - in other words, to choose not to follow God. This results in the sin/immorality/evil that we see in the world around us that is so often pointed to as "evidence" God either doesn't exist or doesn't love us. In fact, it is a direct result of His allowing us to make our own decisions and mistakes... it's humankind's failures, not God's.

Even those who claim to follow Christ are prone to sin, and can certainly make terrible mistakes. Don't judge Jesus and His teachings on those few who claim to follow Him while ignoring most of what He actually taught - we are only human and will let you down. Look to Him, and you won't be disappointed.

Another Million Dollars
Awaits Hitchens if he waits five years and writes a bogus recantation entitled, "Hitchens: Born Again". How deliciously evil.

Hitchens vs God
God wins in book sales! The bible outsells them all! More than all the atheists baleful tomes rolled into one!

What is the Question?
From the standpoint of pure logic, what is it that Hitchens disbelieves?

God vs. Hitchens, in the long run, guess who wins?

Just...so... wrong
"Two of the fundamental truths of the Christian faith are that..."

This sentance is an oxymoron - time to lay off the Kool-Aid! What "truths" can there possibly be in "faith," which is nothing more than a feeling, a hunch - and one that is typically steeped in brainwashed myth, legend and pure bunk?

And another thing: I'm effing sick and tired of being told by sanctimonious, holy-roller types not to judge Christ by "his followers." Enough already, I judge Christ the same way I would "judge" any other individual: by their ACTIONS and perhaps their impact on others.

I don't think you have to buy into the resurrection/assumption myth to appreciate Christ and his marvelous teachings. I view him the same way as Ghandi, or perhaps MLK: great men who, despite some flaws (i.e. MLK's philandering) preached TOLERANCE, love and understanding.

It's the corrupt, self-serving and hypocritical institutions that followed people like Christ that dilute and ultimately shame the original message.

funny how the story changes
"The part you missed is that these atrocities are carried out by people, not God."

So in the case of chritianity you are saying hate the sinner not the sin.

eyeswideopen
Perhaps you need to open your eyes a little wider to see how contradictory your statements are in your post. You rail against followers of Christ yet state you appreciate his marvelous teachings. Don't judge all Christians (who like MLK are fallable) by the acions of a few. True followers of Christ will exhibit the fruits of the spirit which include faith (in God), kindness, goodness, longsuffering and love, characteristics perfected in Christ himself the "author and finisher of our faith."

reciprocity
"True followers of Christ will exhibit the fruits of the spirit which include faith (in God), kindness, goodness, longsuffering and love, characteristics perfected in Christ himself the "author and finisher of our faith."

Does that mean I can say "True followers of athiesm will exhibit the fruits of the ideology which include beliefe that there is no God, kindness, goodness, longsuffering and love.

uber
Of course you can say it but it would be much harder to demonstrate the truth of the statement unless you could cite an example of a human that was able to demonstrate the fruits of the spirit apart from a belief in God and being indwelt by the spirit of God. For "God is love".

Read my post again
I didn't restate your claim word for word, because for an atheist your claim is nonsensical. I made a logically equivalent claim.

My point is you can't cherry pick. Judge the tree by the fruit... Cherry pick. They are related concepts. You can't judge the tree if you pick only the fruit which is good while discounting the fruit which is bad.

If the tree is Christianity, the fruit is all the actions which are inspired by Christianity, even those actions which are the result of error.

I do not say that Atheism as a dogma is good. The fact is like any faith, atheism when accepted on faith is evil. However, being an atheist as a result of scientific inquiry is good, because goodness is a by product of questioning assumption, of striving for better outcomes. No one ever killed someone by being too skeptical.

Steve O - Post July, 11, 2007 1:34 PM
"What if I didn't believe in God, and was convinced that I was evolved from monkeys? Why should I believe that it's wrong to kill in ANY circumstances"?

It dosen't say much for your personal character if you do not know right and wrong without God.

I suspect you find it difficult to undrstand morality withoput God becasue you have a very narrow perspective - The Christian perspective. You need to step out of the closed box of Christian thinking and you will find the answer through another perspective. There is even a scientific and evolutionary reason for morality, it is essential to our survival as a species.

According to recent polls about 3% or 9 million Americans claim to be athesists. So where is all the murder and immorality you speak of?

To answer the question why you do not need God to be Moral is too complex to answer in a blog. But here is a clue. Study Buddhism and/or Jainism. Two fundementally athesitic religions centered on compassion, found morality without God. Do you think the Dali Lama is immoral? He's an atheist.

Read before you type!
"Perhaps you need to open yo