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Tuesday, February 27, 2007
Dennis Prager :: Townhall.com Columnist
George Soros and the Problem of the Radical Non-Jewish Jew
by Dennis Prager
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What do Karl Marx, Leon Trotsky, Noam Chomsky and George Soros have in common?

They were/are all radicals, born to Jewish parents, had no Jewish identity and hurt Jews (not to mention non-Jews).

The term "non-Jewish Jew" is generally attributed to the Jewish historian Isaac Deutscher, who wrote an essay by that name in 1954. The term describes the individual who, though born a Jew (Judaism consists of a national/peoplehood identity, not only a religious one), identifies solely as a citizen of the world and not as a Jew, either nationally or religiously.

Once the walls of Jewish ghettos broke down and European Jews were allowed to leave Jewish societies, many Jews became non-Jewish Jews. In most cases, either they or their children assimilated into the societies in which they lived. However, a small but significant percentage became radicalized. They came to loathe "bourgeois," i.e., traditional middle class, values and Judeo-Christian society; Western national identities (though they generally supported anti-Western national identities); and they particularly loathed Jewish religious and national identity.

Karl Marx, the grandson of two Orthodox rabbis (and, to be entirely accurate, son of parents who converted to Christianity), wrote one of the most significant anti-Semitic essays of the 19th century, "On the Jewish Question" (1844). In it one finds such statements:

"Money is the jealous god of Israel, beside which no other god may exist. . . . The god of the Jews has been secularized and has become the god of the world. . . . The social emancipation of Jewry is the emancipation of society from Jewry."

Leon Trotsky, born Lev Bronstein, may be regarded as the intellectual father of Russian, later Soviet, Communism. He along with Stalin and three others fought to succeed Lenin as leader of the Communist Party after Lenin's death in 1924. In 1920, when Trotsky was head of the Red Army, Moscow's chief rabbi, Rabbi Jacob Mazeh, asked him to use the army to protect the Jews from pogromist attacks. Trotsky is reported to have responded, "Why do you come to me? I am not a Jew." To which Rabbi Mazeh answered: "That's the tragedy. It's the Trotskys who make revolutions, and it's the Bronsteins who pay the price."

Noam Chomsky has devoted much of his life to working against America and Israel. He is alienated from the very two identities into which he was born. Indeed he has vilified both his whole life. To cite but one example, he traveled to Lebanon to appear with Hizbollah leader Sayyed Nasrallah and lend his support to a group that is committed to the annihilation of Israel and is officially listed as a terrorist organization by the United States.

George Soros is the fourth example of an individual born Jewish who has become a radical world citizen who is alienated from America and from his Jewish origins, and damages both.

As described by Martin Peretz, editor-in-chief of The New Republic, "George Soros is ostentatiously indifferent to his own Jewishness. He is not a believer. He has no Jewish communal ties. He certainly isn't a Zionist. He told Connie Bruck in The New Yorker -- testily, she recounted -- that 'I don't deny the Jews their right to a national existence -- but I don't want to be part of it.'"

Writing in The Wall Street Journal, writer Joshua Muravchik reported that Soros has publicly likened Israel to the Nazis.

Of course, Soros supports Palestinian nationalism, but that is a consistent feature of radicals -- anti-Jewish and anti-American nationalisms are good, Jewish and American nationalisms are bad. Thus, as reported in the Jerusalem Post, "Soros and his wealthy Jewish American friends have now decided to aim their fire directly at Israel . . . to form a political lobby that will weaken the influence of the pro-Israel lobby AIPAC."

How to explain such Jews? People with no national or religious roots who become politically active will often seek to undermine the national and religious roots of others, especially those in their own national/religious group. It is akin to the special animosity some ex-Catholics have toward the Church. Non-Jewish Jews are far more likely to work to weaken Christianity in America than Jewish Jews, especially religious Jews. Religious Jews celebrate religious Christians.

Jews with no religious or national identity do not like Jews who have those identities, and Americans who have likewise become world citizens do not much care for Americans who wave the American flag.

Just as chauvinism -- excessive and amoral nationalism -- can lead to nihilism, so, too, the absence of any national or religious identity can lead to nihilism. The radical non-Jewish Jew loves humanity, but hurts real humans, especially his own.

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About The Author
Dennis Prager is a radio show host, contributing columnist for Townhall.com, and author of 4 books including Happiness Is a Serious Problem: A Human Nature Repair Manual.
 
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Feckless parrots
Dennis - The "non-Jewish Jews" -- as you call them -- seem to have lost touch with their own rich heritage and spirituality. They strike me as deeply disturbed individuals whose anti-American/anti-Israel leanings reflect a self-loathing which they project onto the cultures from which they sprung. Unable to confront their own failures to be meaningful members within their own group, they seek to humiliate -- if not destroy -- the culture that gave them life in the first place. The word "loser" has particular resonance here.

These people are like the proverbial "disgruntled employee," who first murders his more successful co-workers before turning the gun on himself. This pathology is all too common among the Left of all persuasions, be it "non-Jewish Jew", atheist or garden-variety Christianophobe. Granted, some anti-American/anti-Israel types are simply feckless parrots unable to examine any proposition beyond the bumper-sticker impact on a fellow parrot. (I think we may safely lump the MSM and most Democrats together here).

Keep up your quality commentary.

Non-Jewish Jews
I first came across this kind of odd bird, while serving the US Army (in the 1950's). His name was Mel Opotowski, who later on went to work for the New York Times, so I was told. He was a jornalist, serving as an enlisted man. He hated Jews, he hated Israel, and rooted for the Arabs. I never understood that, except, as Mr. Praeger says, he was an example of many other people who turn against their religious and ethnic roots: sons of catholics, who hate catholicism; sons of protestants, who hate protestantism, and so-forth. Freud must have some sort of explanation for it. HOWEVER, Mr. Praeger forgot another glaring example: Moses Hess, Karl Marx's guide and alleged financier, who went as far as to change his name to "Maurice", to distance himself from the name Moses, which was given him at birth.

Chomsky
Ironically, Chomsky cites his early involvement in Zionist societies, which tended to have a faint red tint back then, in New York as the catalyst for his own politicisation.

Marx, Trotsky,Choamsky,Soros
I'm no psychologist, but couldn't some of this have to do with personal relationships? Men who hate their fathers often reject whatever their fathers represented. There could also have been the wish to escape persecution by joining the persecutors and thus, by implication, seeming to be completely removed from the group (in this case, Jews) being reviled. but certainly I agree with Dennis that these people, in rejecting Judaism, did much to damage Jews.

This is a sad but true commentary.
Asa conservative Christian, I am pro Israel and Pro-Life and I want to see the Palestinians kept at bay. Appeasement is not the way to win the war with the Palestinians. They do not care about the rights of Israel. Even the text books in Palestinian Schools show all of Israel as Palestine and they teach their children that Israelis are "Occupiers" and that America is the great Satan that helps the Occupiers. I had the destinct displeasure of meeting one of these "children" who was brought up in the religion of hatred for all things Jewish and Christian. He had married an American girl and I am afraid she is probably over there now or dead from the fighting. He watched the nightly news and raged at the way the horrible Americans treated the poor innocent Palestinians. Later I married a girl whose dad was half Lebanese. At least, he was a good Christian. He hated to see violence in Lebanon, but he understood and supported Israel. The Jewish people do not need any more enemies, especially these non-Jewish Jews who work to harm the people of their own heritage.

This is something...
...that I still can't understand. I just don't get how a person can be so hostile to his own origins. I understand how a person born a Jew may embace another religion or even live a rdical lifestyle, but I will never understand how one comes to hate his own. There has to be some deep disturbance in a person to cause that type of behavior.

Dennis doesn't ask or answer
the more interesting question. "Why is this 'syndrome' more prevalent among jews?" (and I think it is).


syndrome
"Why is this 'syndrome' more prevalent among jews?"

you mean being a non-jewish jew?

well, i guess it's because you have to be a jew in the first place to be a non-jewish jew...

good work knucklehead.

no, i get your question... why do jews turn on their origins more than other groups?.. well, i doubt that there's any proof of that, and i'm sure it happens everywhere...

my question is: why need there be fidelity to jews by other jews? would you be asking the same question if a militant muslim turned his back on his faith and community? i don't think so. i don't think anyone would be complaining about the non-islamofascist islamofascist.

if anything, dennis should focus on the politics rather than the heritage of the matter... it is not simply enough to state that non-jewish jews turned their backs on jewish jews and this is bad... nor is it very informative... praeger should focus on the way anyone treats jews or abandons them... or else one is just stating that hatred of jews by jews is worse than hatred of jews by anyone else... i ask again, by what standard does anyone proclaim that there need by fidelity among jews to define the non-jewish jew as a betrayer, and thus worse than an anti-jewish non-jew?

why they do it
Sorry
, but I think the reason is cowardess. It's a strategy for self-preservation and advancement. If one is a member of a persecuted group then one can leave that group in hopes of avoiding attack, but to really prove that one is no longer of them it helps if one enjoins in the attack on that group. Children do it in the schoolyard.

We must stop anti semitism now.
The Bible commands us to pray for the peace of Jerusalem (Psalm 122:6), to speak out for Zion’s sake (Isaiah 62:1) to be watchmen on the walls of Jerusalem (Isaiah 62:6) and to bless the Jewish people (Genesis 12:3). These and so many other verses of the Bible have one overriding message – as Christians we have a Biblical obligation to defend Israel and the Jewish people in their time of need.

Israel’s time of need is now. There is a new Hitler in the Middle East – President Ahmadinejad of Iran -- who has threatened to wipe out Israel and America. And he is rapidly acquiring the nuclear technology with which to make good on his threat. If we learned anything from the Holocaust, it is that when a madman threatens genocide we must take him seriously.

During the Holocaust, too many Christians were silent, and we were left to mourn the slaughter of 6 million Jews. Today, Bible-believing Christians must speak up and stand up for Israel. We must act to do whatever we can to protect Israel’s 6 million Jews from the second Holocaust that has been threatened. We must get it right this time. Our faith demands it. The times demand it. Silence is not an option.

CUFI is a national Christian grassroots movement focused on one issue: supporting Israel. Although we’re less than one year old, we’re spreading like a wildfire and are changing the nature of support for Israel in America. We hope you’ll join us. Sign up for our free weekly e-mails updates so that you can stay informed about CUFI’s activities and current events relating to Israel. Participate in or organize a Night to Honor Israel in your community. And please join us in Washington, DC on July 16-18, 2007 to speak to our elected officials about the imperatives of supporting Israel.

Time is short and the challenge is great. But we must believe that it was for a moment such as this that we were called to faith and given the power to make a difference. It will be good if you visit our website. http://www.cufi.org Please stay, learn about CUFI, capture our passion, and become our brothers and sisters in this urgent mission.

Eddie

liberalgoodman
"Soros and Chomsky are better men than any of the moronic TH columnists...."

Well, now I'm sure to listen to you. Name-calling has always hastened my willingness to examine someone's views. I think we'll just reject your middle name "good," and go with "liberalman who can't think of a good argument so he calls people names."


liberalgoodman
The sad thing is I think you really believe the errors and half-truths you spout.

In the last 30 odd years the only antisemitism I have seen has been limited to a couple of groups. One I will call liberal Christianity, and the second would be cults from either end of the spectrum. In either case I would have to label such people as non-Christians, since by definition, a Christian is a follower of a Jewish carpenter named Jesus son of Joseph from the town of Nazareth.

The only change I have seen over the last five years, (actually longer than that), is an increase in awareness among conservative and even less than conservative Christians of what I'm going to call the Jewishness of Jesus. With that has come a greater honoring of the Jewish roots of Christianity. At least in the circles I move in, there has always been a love and respect for Israel and the Jewish people. The only change I have seen is that has grown.

Do yourself a favor liberalgoodman ... do some independent research and then try a little independent thinking. Maybe you'll get your facts correct.

Thanks edmat58
I guess edmat58 put the lie to liberalgoodman's accusation of antisemitism on the part of conservative Christians.

As one REAL good liberal once said, "Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but they are not entitled to their own facts."

Is it possible that those with a strong
commitment to destroying the sense of "other" feel the greatest antipathy toward their own "tribe" because they see (and detest) how the members of their group are working against all "the others"?

I ask again, tho, why are Jews more likely to be this way (Liberal) than other groups?

Certain cultures self hate more
Hackamore is right, Jews have this syndrome more then most other groups, the only other group that I see this in is the English, and we as Americans enherited it from them.

it's probably a jewish trait stemming from the Talmudic culture of tolorating debate, a culture of intellectual challenge taken to an extreme.

The english have this problem especialy bad, and we as Americans have it as well. I believe this is a result of having roman culture forced apon traditional Anglo culture, institutionalising a cultural self loathing that has survived as a self perpetuating meme.

It's called wisdom Dennis
Prager: How to explain such Jews? People with no national or religious roots who become politically active will often seek to undermine the national and religious roots of others, especially those in their own national/religious group.

Phylo: Here's how: They see people who view their own nationality or religion as special and superior to all others are potentially dangerous. Hitler had an over-inflated sense of nationalism. And radical Islam has an over-inflated sense of the superiority of their religion.

Prager: It is akin to the special animosity some ex-Catholics have toward the Church. Non-Jewish Jews are far more likely to work to weaken Christianity in America than Jewish Jews, especially religious Jews. Religious Jews celebrate religious Christians.

Phylo: Yes, of course. ex-catholics, like non-jewish Jews feel they were lied to in their childhoods with all of this talk about God and floods and chosen people and resurrection from the dead. Is it really so surprising that people who have the good sense to realize that the bible is just another book, would have major differences with those who believe that the bible is the inerrant word of God?

Prager: Jews with no religious or national identity do not like Jews who have those identities, and Americans who have likewise become world citizens do not much care for Americans who wave the American flag.

Phylo: Naturally we worry about people who believe that they, and they alone, know how the right and good way to live. Look at your history, it's always the people who have an over-inflated sense of themselves that cause all of the problems. When was the last time a war was started by a group with a weak sense of national or religious identity?

I wonder if that's what Jesus meant when he said the meek shall inherit the earth.

People like Prager remind of John Clease's character in Life of Brian, who, after leaving the sermon on the mount says "What this Jesus doesn't understand is that the meek are the problem."

Phylo out.


Prager's non jewish jew
Why is it when someone developes a dislike for the group from which they came, they are thought to be traitors?

Most USAers don't understnad how anyone can be against anythin the USA does. They are proud Americans, which is easier to be because the USA is so prosporus and it feels better to be associated with a prosporous group if for no other reason that one doesn't have to explain why you are proud.

When I look at USA history, I see a history of dispicable acts such as the trail of tears, slavery, on up to Bush's war. I don't want to be a part of that history; I don't condone it so why must I ignore it and wave the flag? Because I have been born into this society, I am more aware of its faults. Those that ignore the faults are essentially condoning the faults so don't I have the right to despise them? Because I am physically among them, I feel that I am looked at as part of them even though , I loathe what they condone and that is a reason to loathe them even more. It is not only my right but it is natural and logical.


Perhaps a better
explanation than the one I gave above is that perhaps jews in the West have such a strong sense of other (being such a small minority) that more of their children are repelled and disgusted by this and become Liberals.

Judaism vs Marxism
As usual, LGM puts the spin of a tornado on matters. Christians are anti-Marxist - not anti-semitic. A Christian will have a great hate for Marxism but Christianity does not permit a hate for the race born of Shem - nor the part of the Semitic race known as Jews. Marxism merits a hate second to none - including Islamo-fascism & Naziism. Those who practice it, regardless of which of the three top races they fall under, are sadistic pigs. Marxists (such as LGM) will refer to Christian peoples who’ve referred to Marxists as “Jewish pigs” as being anti-Semitic, though the Christians’ comments were based on the fact that the great majority of the Jews in the area were Marxists – not practitioners of Judaism. The few Judaists in those areas defended the Jewish Marxists out of blood loyalty (though the Marxists despised them) - the result of which was persecution of all Jews in the area. Had the Judaists spoken against the Marxists (as does Prager) vs. defending them, they wouldn't have been persecuted.

Ya know, it's funny
Prager listed the 3d/4th examples alongside two very prominent Communists. Coincidence, nope as both are revered by the Left for variou$ rea$on$.

Tells you where the Left is, doesn't it?

At least the die-hard 'progressives' in the Party...

These discussions always
comeback on themselves. Why not break the cycle and highlight Christ. He is the only answer that can satisfy for all the contradiction in this contradictory world?

Why? Because we...

From Ben Zacchai to Newdow
How to explain such Jews?

Hosea 5:10.

"The princes of Judah have become like those who remove the ancient landmarks."

It amazes me that we do not readily correlate this historically demonstrable phenomenon Mr. Prager points out with its attendant parrallel with fallen away Christian believers and draw the obvious conclusion.

The spiritual dynamics are unavoidable. One does not simply reject faith in God and in His Christ and remain in a neutral state, but becomes seven times worse. (Luke 11:26)

If anything over the years has convinced me that the Bible is the Truth, apart from my own internal changes, it has to be this continually demonstrable phenomenon over all others.

In praise of non-jewish jews
Judiasm contains some very laudable features, an emphasis on education and charity among them. It also includes a tribalism which is somewhat anachronistic since the enlightenment. The result is that it is not surprising that jews have been at the forefront of most intellectual movements of the last couple of hundred years, including both the true and the misguided.

So Marx and Trotsky, both responding to real injustices advocated a philosophy which unfortunately did not reflect human nature well enough to be a solution.

Soros, of course, makes it to the list for having the nerve to hold some views that Prager disagrees with. Few men alive have put as much resources into spreading democracy as Soros. But he also thinks that Palestinians should be treated like human beings, so he is apparently a traitor to the jewish people.

But among the non-jewish jews certainly one should include Spinoza, Freud, Einstein, Mahler for a start. Ayn Rand, too, I suppose. As one might expect if one thought about it, they make more of a continuum than an extreme. But if the point is to vilify anyone who leaves the tribe, then that is not what one wants people thinking about.

while Kimberly, as usual ....
... pathetically and puerilely parrots and projectile spews the Hate-America-First Brigades' and Bush Derangement Syndrome sufferers' socialist psychopathology.

"Liberalism" is a psychosis!

I thought the article was about
non-Jewish Jews, not Korean prophets...

I am flabbergasted that several here easily assert that the Jews are more prone to self-loathing than any other ethnic (for lack of a better word) group. Seems that one would have to have been exposed to all ethnicities in the USA for sustained periods to safely reach such a conclusion.

I am amused to read that the English (Anglo Saxons) are self loathing as a result of the Roman occupation. First, the inhabitants of Britain at the time of the Roman occupation were the Ancient British (Welsh, Cumbrians, Picts, etc.) who spoke a variety of Celtic dialects of what is now modern Welsh. The Anglo-Saxons arrived as the Romans were leaving. Second, it is the English who systematically strove to obliterate Celtic culture in Britain. So, it would be the Welsh and the Scots who would be self-loathing in such a setting. Being of Scottish and Welsh ancestry myself, I see no evidence of self loathing in my family tree.

In my lifetime (b. 1957), I've witnessed plenty of examples where "good Christians" attributed the death of Jesus to the Jews. They somehow appeared to have missed the point that Jesus was himself Jewish. And I believe a closer read of the New Testament will reveal that Joseph was the carpenter and Jesus was the rabbi. He is called "teacher" by his disciples, and I believe that translates to "Rabbi."

But to Prager's article, and he is from that community, I have often wondered myself why a group that is reputed to be very entrepreneurial and independent could produce "progressives" (Marxists seems to fit just as well) like Chomsky and Soros. I'm not sure Prager has fully answered the question either.

LGM..
Well done. You've snagged two more (osthode and HisFool) with your rather sardonic and rapier wit....chuckling

Kimberly...
Once again you've completely failed to see the crux of the article to fly off on a Bush-Reagan-Republican-conservative-America hating rant. Well done my little cave dwelling monkey.....

Shimon
"I will bless those who bless you, and curse those who curse you". Is that hogwash too? God has blessed the U.S. since it's inception, but if we stop supporting Israel(praying and protecting), watch what happens. Our very existence rests upon this fact.

It doesn't amaze me that people don't correlate these things. I Corinthians says that the perishing consider the gospel foolishness. Unless you have not only an open mind but an open heart, you will not understand the teachings of the Bible. That's why Jesus spoke in parables.

Lon...
What "enlightenment" would you be referring to that makes Jewish "tribalism" so anachronistic?

Could that tribalism be a response to centuries of organized and government sanctioned attempts to exterminate the Jews from the planet? Or perhaps the pogroms, Nazis, repeated attempts by Egypt, Jordan and Syria to destroy Israel, and now Achmadinijad (not a nut job but a true believer) who is promising the elimination of Israel in a ball of nuclear fire, are all filaments of some grassy knoll nut case's overactive imagination?

reply to turbo55
Golly, I was just waiting for some of you conservative neo-Nazis to show up and there you are! One of the oldest obsessions of the political Right is that thte Jews are traitors to the countries in which they live. To say that the majrotiy of American Jews would like our country fall is to make precisely the claim the Nazis made that there was a Jewish conspiracy and war against the Third Reich that justified the death camps.

Are there any brave conservatives who will denounce turbo55's trash, or can I expect to see a flood of posts supporting him? And you guys wonder why so many of us liberals are always sniffing for the odor of Naziism in conservatives. That's because it's there.

Gestell, You're Smarter Than That

Out of 30-plus posts, you pick on one that is poorly stated and reasoned and then generalize it to the entire conservative ideology. Among the many very insightful posts I've seen you offer on Townhall, this one is is an embarrassment.

The conservative viewpoint as a whole is no more responsible for every post issued in its name than you are for the inane comments offered by the other liberal posters on this site.

tunneler
No, the jewish tribalism could not be a result of the factors you mention since that tribalism clearly goes back to the time of the Old Testament (it is quite explicit in the old testament that wherever the jews go they do not intermarry for example) and has been confirmed through genetic testing at least of the Ashkinazi that either there was remarkably little intermingling with the groups around them, or the people who intermingled were expelled.

The factors that you mention likely have increased the tendency though, and certainly is part of the modern jewish mindset. (Although the claims about Ahmadinejad are odd. It is not clear why he can't be both a nutjob and a true believer. And while he has called for the end of Israel, it is not true that he has threatened to accomplish this with nuclear weapons. That is a fiction being spread by people who want to bomb Iran.)

The enlightenment value that I had in mind was the idea that once value as a person is based on ones own merits and is not a matter of ones birth. That is something that the US has tried to embody, and is one of the things that has allowed us to move past Europe which is more tied to ethnic identity. Ironically for this discussion, one of the ways this has benefited us is that it has made the US a safe place for jews, both religious and secular, to come, despite some people's idea that this is a Christian nation. And jews have contributed greatly to the country.

But someone growing up with American values in which the individual is what matters is likely to chafe at the idea that their mate should be picked on ethnic grounds. Or that they should support a foreign country's policies because of the country's ethnicities even if they violate ones principles.

lon
It is dependent upon one's perspective whether or not the intellectuals you cite have contributed positively or negatively to Western thought. I think Mr. Prager's point is to be assessed, not merely from the perspective that any and all intellectual contribution is admirable but how that contribution affects a particular perspective and in what direction.

He makes clear what his bias is. Why don't you state yours?


Gestell
Speaking of Nazism, here are a few quotes regarding Nazism.

Who said them?

1. "The main plank in the National Socialist program is to abolish the liberalistic concept of the individual and the Marxist concept of humanity and to substitute for them the folk community, rooted in the soil and bound together by the bond of its common blood."

2. "It is thus necessary that the individual should come to realize that his own ego is of no importance in comparison with the existence of his nation."

3. "We must stop thinking of the individual and start thinking about what is best for society."

4. "We can't be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans."








1&2..Hitler
3. Hillary Clinton
4. Bubba Clinton

Just a piece of advice but look to your own party for Socialist Democrats (NASDP)like Hitler.

Bizarre Logic
Why can't one be Jewish and yet be critical of Israel. I wasn't a great fan of apartheid in South Africa but I don't hate white people. Some of my best friends are white!!!
All this reminds me of when self appointed liberal black 'spokesmen' accuse conservative black people of 'selling out to whitey'.

for more info
David Horowitz has a couple of very interesting chapters on this question in his book "The politics of bad faith : the radical assault on America's future."

Replies to Sept12Republican and GunnyG

My goodness, you guys are solicitous to a fault! Such tenderness invoked for a guardian variety Jew-hater's remarks.

While turbo55's comments are "not nice, he makes a valid point." And I'm criticized for picking on this poor dude whose arguments are "poorly stated and reasoned." Look, the guy's saying that most American Jews are traitors. Is this beyond your capacity to grasp? Your apologies for him are pathetic. You remind me of idiots on the Left who respond to criticisms of their overheated rhetoric on Bush as a Nazi or on Zionism as racism by saying, in effect, "Well, we didn't really mean it; it's just our way of expressing ourselves."

I won't go too far in replying to the silly tactic of listing Clinton quotes after Hitler quotes. I can find criticisms of individualism and what are believed to be excessive emphases on individual rights in America from any number of eminent conservatives. [Try Mary Ann Glendon's book "Rights Talk," for the latter point, and everybody from Edmund Burke to James Burnham for the former point.] But, as I'm fond of saying on TH, today's conservatives don't know jack about conservatism.

Soros
I think it would be good to get back to this evil man. He was - according to what I have read - just 14 when his father bought him a place in the Judenrat of Budapest. The Judenrat were the Jews who acted for the Nazis - they adminiostered Jewish society in a given city or town, and this administration included making the selections of Jews for transport to the camps and death. God knows what motivated these people: but self-preservation, fear, self-loathing , guilt must have been part of the psychological makeup of these people, who in the end perished themselves. The Soros family did not perish, but lived to emigrate to England after the Communists took over Hungary after World War II. Interesting that the accomodation the Soros family found with the Nazis did not continue under the Communists - both societies being equal in malevolence.

So George lived and matured in London but came to our country in the sixties and ultimately became a citizen. He then spent years ruthlessly accumulating his huge fortune, and how in his old age is spending that fortune trying to destroy the very civilization that wwelcomed him.

How to explain this man is a conundrum. That he is a self-hating Jew is Mr. Prager's analysis, and considering the life-forming experiences youn Soros encountered back in Budapest, I can understand how he could be self-hating. But since I am a Christian, I am very tempted to believe that the man Soros is in the command of Satan. He has become a minion of the Anti-Christ and by extension, an enemy of his own people and in fact, all the people of the Book.

I can only hope - and pray - that all GOOD people will learn all about this man, and will shun him and his works. Knowledge is the greatest tool we have and casting the light on the actions of the evil will in the end neutralize or destroy them.

A way to help decide on YOUR candidate

A voting scale - (how I/we should vote, - and why)
[These names and subjects are examples, pick your own. Add each of the two columns for your candidates into totals for their score. This is an attempt to take the emotion out of your decisions. It is still a work in progress based on aerospace methods for decision making based on facts, so expect changes. Comments are welcome. This works much better in a spreadsheet format.

Ed

Office seeker: Biden Brownback Bunning Cantwell Casey [pick your own]

A-Subjects: [0=for, 1=ok , 2=don’t like, 3=shouldn't, 4=Against]
Abortion
Euthanasia
Embryonic stem cell rsch
Human cloning
Homosexual marriage
Total A score:

B-Subjects: [Same grading scale as above]
For tax increase
For troop pullout NOW
For larger government
For environment
For ___________
For ___________
Total B score:
Total of A & B:

Bipsee Quee
I would have thought that my biases would come out in the same manner as Prager's, namely based on what things I took to be positive values.

I think that the worth of an individual is based on their character and independent of their ethnicity and that countries should be based on principles rather than ethnic identity. But I acknowledge that the world is not always ready for that to be the case, but it is certainly the ideal.

I think that a minimal requirement for a region to count as free is that the inhabitants of the region are full citizens of the country that controls the region, although obviously there are additional requirements that many countries fail to meet.

I think that part of the greatness of manking lies in its ability to understand the world, and so I do value scientists and people who are willing to expand our knowledge of the world, and to question our shortcomings.

Is that the kind of thing you meant? Or did you have something else in mind?

Hating your own
It is an interesting psychological puzzle.

I believe such odd behavior is caused by an intense sense of humiliation resulting from personal failure and/or having been treated unjustly, whether founded in reality or imagination.

In our youth, we are highly impressionable and view beliefs and ideas in black and white absolute terms. This is when we are most easily indoctrinated into belief systems that demand a specific set of behaviors and thought patterns.

This is when we strive the hardest to meet these standards, to please those we need and love, to fit in, to measure up.

We all fail to some degree, and most people are able to hide their failures from others in their idealogical group, and find a way of accepting, denying or ignoring those failures. But sometimes those failures unavoidably become known by others.

For the proud and intellectually rigorous, the failures do not have to be public. They know, and that is enough to cause feelings of inadequacy and humiliation.

When such an individual loses all self respect and hope of every measuring up, he/she, in an act of desperate self preservation, rejects the system of behavior and thought they have been raised with, and begins a journey of self justification through the deligitimization (deconstruction) of the ideology.

Unfortunately for some, they find themselves in a permanent state of attraction/repulsion. They are like an individual who is embracing someone who loaths them, but are unable to release their grip. Their only recourse, their only way of freeing themselves is to actively seek the destruction of that which humiliates them.

Thus we have the anti-jewish jew, the anti-catholic catholic, etc.

This of course, does not mean there aren't other possible reactions to disillusionment with one's idealogical heritage. There are plenty of people who quietly fall away from their religious beliefs and practices. They don't suffer a backlash. But those who do backlash seem to have a particular quality about them: They are arrogant and absolutist in their own way, stuck with the notion there can be only one right way to be and to live. They are highly intelligent and articulate, which brings them into the public arena. And when they are also wealthy like Soros, they become a force to reckon with.

Gestell
Too bad I can't read your post to my uncle who jumped into the ETO on DDay to crush the Hitlerites.

I'd go to Israel in a flat second if the Arabs invaded to fight for the IDF.

But I was spot on with the American Jews and I notice that you failed to address that. Typical lib tactic.

So, were you offended when Hillary called NY jews kikes or Jesse referring to NYC as Hymietown, or is that only when a right-winger does it that you get mad?

jamieos
Agreed. Soreazz is a real p.o.s.

SSDD,Kimbat
Can't dispute what is said(gasp,facts!)about your man Soros so you need to revert to your Bush Bashing ways. Ho-hum. Time to try something new...like suck up the truth,girl and get over it!!
BTW, this column was about Soros et al turning their backs on their faith and becoming radical (leftist)supporters. Did you miss that?

Soros
Congratulation Live Free or Die!
Your very profound analysis I think answers many of my questions/thoughts about this man Soros. There are many like him I suspect, but he is so outstanding and relentless that I have to feel there is an extra demonic quality about him.

He shares this quality with Hitler, which makes him double trouble.

A Jew is always a Jew
Can a tree separate itself from its roots and survive? Being Jewish is an ethnicity, a religion, and a national heritage…Jews can divorce themselves from the religion, and from the ethnicity, but not from the national heritage…it is their root, it is what supports them physically and spiritually. They cannot separate themselves from the covenants of God. Whether they like it or not, or whether they believe it or not, they will all one day be gathered back in Israel by God and will then know their tribal heritage. You can detach yourself from the beliefs of your parents, you can change your name, but you can no more change your parentage than you can change your eye color, your hair color, your national heritage, the blood that runs in your veins, or the heart within you.

The men discussed in the column are very public figures and what they do and say is scrutinized by everyone…What about the hundreds of thousands of Jews who have blended into other societies, countries, and religious affiliations. They live so as to protect themselves from as much discrimination as possible, congregate together, but cannot escape their national heritage or the hate from all those who cannot tolerate human differences.

I do not understand why many Jews in America are so vitriolic and hateful against Christians and conservatives (most Jews in America are liberals) and why they continue to vote for the party and ideologies that will eventually destroy the peaceful existence they enjoy in America. The liberals are committed to secularism and want no religions in America, and only the conservatives will be on the frontline to protect Jews and all other religious organizations and spiritual gatherings. Forcing your “rights” to the “n-th” degree diminishes the rights of others and Jews as well as all other Americans should remember that.

Jews are a special people…they were chosen by God, and those who forget that will be punished in the end…God will punish nations, and individuals…He promised that. Noam Chomsky and George Soros are old men now, and all despots are subject to the same laws of nature as are we all…they will pass from the scene eventually…but more oppressors will appear to take their places, so we must ever be vigilant.

Of Course What's Really Funny..
is that a lot of the nutcase Christians who support Israel do so as they think this will herald the Endtimes and want to convert Jews to Christianity. This lot are as mad as the Islamic Fundamentalists and possibly as dangerous

replies to GunnyG and turbo55
First to GunnyG:

You need some new material: Jesse Jackson's Hymietown line and Hillary's "kike" quote are pretty long in the tooth. I'm not happy with ethnic slurs directed at anybody, by anybody; we liberals are often like that.

So, your comment was about "the American Jews." All of them, presumably, since you allowed for no exceptions. You might have (but didn't notice) that I'm not too pleased with idiotic discourse on the Left either.

Now back to turbo55: Plainly, you are unable to understand what you yourself have written. That's unfortunate, especially since you seem to think you're not a bigot. Let me educate you. Bigotry 101 could practically be exemplified by your original comments.

Here they are again:

"My opinion (and I'm sure you will all correct me if I am wrong) is that the majority of the Jewish population in the U.S. would like to see America fall." You offered no evidence for this claim, which is redolent of the Nazi propaganda style. I assume you have some profound insight into the Jewish essence that just allows you to see that they are all traitors. How nice for you.

Here's your other beauty:

"It's time to say to the Jewish people of the United States, America, Love it or Leave it." Once again, a vintage right-wing fanatic's sort of line. I'll assume you know where all the Jews live so you and your friends can go start forcing them out of the country. Sound familiar?

The fact that you have conservative defenders on this site pretty well says it all. I've noticed that not one critic has appeared thus far exept for one lone liberal. Figures.

Flagwaver
"I just don't get how a person can be so hostile to his own origins."

Try finding that the part of your heritage from which your last name was based is French! Once realized, it's easy to continue using the changed version of your last name than the original spelling so as not to be associated with today's French.

vespanat, are you nuts?
Just like many libdolts, trying to compare the fundamentalist Christians with the Islamofacists is a non-starter. Or did I miss the mass demonstrations and rioting the fundamentalists perpetrated over the blasphemous Hollyweird nutbag that supposedly dug up Jesus, just like the Islamofacists did over the mere printing of comics depicting the pervert, oops I mean prophet, Mohammed. Just because one or two nut-jobs attempted and one succeeded in killing an abortion Dr., does not equate with millions of nutjobs running amok and demanding that everyone treat the pervert the same as they do! Rubbish!!

In response the Gestell
According to you logic, am I then safe to assume that all liberals agree with Kimberly's (to pick just one) posts?

Gestell
Sorry to bust your bubble but the liberals are the anti-semetics.

http://tailrank.com/posts/562949953908129/When_Liberals_Attack

Pages of anti-semetic messages from those tolerant and loving people on the left! I DO believe that moveon.org is involved...oops.

TURBO 55
Turbo 55 writes " Where is the collective thank you from the Jews."

The Jerusalem Museum Yad Vashem, the mother of all Holocaust museums, came up with the concept in 1963 and created the honour, bestowed by a special committee on candidates that qualified.
In fact, there is a non-profit organization in the United States, the Jewish Foundation for the Righteous Gentiles.

Lying is fashionable
>Achmadinijad (not a nut job but a true believer) who is promising the elimination of Israel in a ball of nuclear fire,<

Please find this quote so we'll know you're not lying.

"When was the last time....

...a war was started by a group with a weak sense of national or religious identity?"

This assumption is not true, "Phylo Se Fiser". War is always the result of weak and self righteous nations allowing neighboring evil nations to become strong. It is not religion or nationalism that causes war, paradoxically, it is Pacifism and Appease-ism that is the true incendiary.

Furthermore, those who perpetuate the notion that "Strength equals War", is just as guilty, and perhaps more so, of the horrors of war then are those who wage it. Pacifists have as much blood on their hands as they accuse the "nationalists" of having.

Gestell
Oh, I get it now --
When a lib says "kike" it is water under the bridge before it leaves the speaker's mouth. The fact that the nation is considering her for president is not material to the discussion.
When a conservative does anything racist it is a scarlet A of his forehead forever -- see remarks made in positive light at a Senator's birthday. (I don't dare even use names for fear of being called a racist.)

Jews as Jew Haters
It has always intrigued me that in History, Jews often seem to be their own worst enemies. It's as though, being selected by God as the "chosen" people, those that reject that choice seem to war against the whole concept.

I guess that's what happens when you pervert the gifts of God for your own purposes.

Christians, as adopted sons and daughters, take note......

Donaldd
You seem to have an overworked imagination and an underworked fact finder. No one is impressed.

Dennis Prager
OK you explained non-Jewish Jews.

I thought New York voted for Hillary, though.
Do the rest of the Jews have any doubt who will be the first into the new ovens of islamofascists? They should be for ANY war against any Jew hating nation.

If I were listening to Iran's pres right now I wouldn't vote for Hillary if I were a Jew.

I thought Jews were scholars. Don't they know about the history of Hitler in the middle east? Haven't they even fundamental knowledge of Saddam's relationship to Nazism?

Who do they think will be first into the new ovens? Aren't they helping to build the ovens this time? What happened to "NEVER AGAIN"?

reply to RODVAL
Try reading the posts you want to criticize. Did I say anything about accepting or agreeing with anti-Jewish remarks from any liberal? No, I did not. I didn't give a free pass to anybody on this, but you want very much for me to have done so, don't you?

Donaldd
Donaldd writes: "AH; But the Right Wing nut jobs haven't succeeded in Creating, in America, the Fundamentalist Right Wing Nut Job Government they want. When it should happen their will be Witches burning at the stake, gays, Catholics, Muslims, and being lynched as heretics etc. like it was centuries ago and like in fundamentalist Muslim countries today."

There has never been more “barbequing of civilians” than by the left-wing during the times of Nero, Hitler & Reno - all homosexuals who took great pleasure in "barbequing men, women, and children".

(Regardless of political persuasion, we do have one thing in common - our proof reading leaves much to be desired (their vs. there).)

Another reply to GunnyG
Like I said, I'm not giving a free pass to any anti-jewish rantings, whether from MoveOn or anybody else. But, of course, it fits into your view of the world that since I'm a liberal, I must endorse the moronic utterances of people on the left who indulge in anti-Jewish ravings. Well, I don't.

As for your friend, turbo55, his utterances are just plain old unvarnished Jew-hatred.

Gestell
"Gestell writes: Tuesday, February, 27, 2007 3:06 PM
replies to GunnyG and turbo55
First to GunnyG:

You need some new material: Jesse Jackson's Hymietown line and Hillary's "kike" quote are pretty long in the tooth."

Now you can explain to me what the real meaning of is is.

Rich
I didn't mean all fundementalist christians, just the ones who are looking forward to the Endtimes and think they are going to be whisked off to paradise a la Star Trek, sounds rather familiar that doesn't it???
I'm no libdolt BTY not even a liberal.
Speaking of dolts, i'm just watching your president trying to articulate a sentence on UK television as I type.

Now to the subject at hand
As far as I can tell, those present-day Jewish intellectuals like Noam Chomsky really don't believe that the side they support means it about killing Jews. I've had this argument with my fellow academics--both Jewish and non-Jewish-- for many years. A lot of these folks really don't believe--down deep--that a lot of the folks they support would, if possible, kill every Jew in Israel. They just can't buy it. Why not?

Because the would-be killers are the poor, the oppressed, etc. and many people (not all) on the left firmly believe in the superior moral virtue of the oppressed. Just like conservatives believe that nothing American could ever really be wrong (and if it's wrong, it's not really American!), so a lot of lefties believe that an oppressed third-worlder is a paragon of virtue if only he can be freed from his Western (American, Jewish, other) oppressors. This nonsense got started with, among others, Marx, when he romanticized the "unutterably pure" Parisian workers who needed liberation from capitalist oppression. I've tried for years to persuade some of my friends and colleagues that there is no necessary correlation between being a victim and being a good human being, but with little success.


It goes back to the tower of Babel
when the whole world was of one language and were one people united under one system they built a tower against God, so God said let us go down and confound their luanguage and scatter them.

What was the purpose?

So that God may seperate out and devalop a peculiuar people and leinage from which the Christ child may spawn from so that all those that believe on him may be saved.

Satan wants to unit the world as it was at the tower of Babel under one system that recognizes all religions as legitimit ways to God. And to do that he must perpetuate the notion of Judaeo-Christianity as an enemy to "peace" for it's intolorant views of other religions. And so he uses unbelieving Jews as his agents to get it done.

reply to RODVAL
If liberal anti-jewish animus is so prevalent, then surely conservatives can come up with something better and more recent than these very old quotes. That's what I meant. And no, I don't have to explain what is is. This is because I am under no obligation to apologize for, explain, or justify either Bill Clinton's comments or his behavior. If you haven't bothered to notice, what I'm pursuing in my posts today are the very specific comments of turbo55. If you really want to answer me, you or anybody else who'se posting on this can say something like:

1. Turbo55's anti-Jewish comments really ARE anti-Jewish comments; and

2. These remarks don't reflect how most conservatives view the Jews.

I'm not seeing responses like that. Interesting, ain't it?

2.

Double Standards, Gestell?

From Gestell's 4:21 p.m. post: "But, of course, it fits into your view of the world that since I'm a liberal, I must endorse the moronic utterances of people on the left who indulge in anti-Jewish ravings. Well, I don't."

From Gestell's initial post of 11:03 a.m.: "Golly, I was just waiting for some of you conservative neo-Nazis to show up and there you are! .... And you guys wonder why so many of us liberals are always sniffing for the odor of Naziism in conservatives. That's because it's there."

No, we (or at least I) don't believe that you, Gestell, are tainted with said "moronic utterances". A corresponding level of respect would be nice.

That said, your post of 4:30 redeems you. That's the Gestell I'm used to reading. Well done.

lon
I'm confused.

I don't see a conflict between what you express as your positive values and what Mr. Prager expresses as his biases, yet clearly there is a difference of opinion on display here between you and him.

Am I misinterpreting something?

Gunny
'Speaking of Nazism, here are a few quotes regarding Nazism.' etc.

Very good - I think I've seen it before. If this doesn't underscore the fascist nature of the Clintons, nothing does. Our experience with The Hil's attempt to hijack the medical system and unilaterally impose socialized medicine on the nation ought to remind us of how dangerous she would be as president.

Prager has written of the difference in Jews before. He defined the Jewish Jews as those who could read hebrew. Their opposites might be considered secular Jews.

Yes, there are two kinds of Jews, and, depending on your political persuasion, one provokes support and conradeship while the other generates loathing, disgust and anti-semitism. There's hardly an in-between.

I'm sure Deb Schlussel is to liberals what Sen Levy is to conservatives. For me, the Levy types' support of liberalism makes as much sense as a '30s German Jew's support of Nazism. Is it rational for them to support Israel's destruction, or this country's defeat?

The ironic part is that Islam makes no distinction - it would kill both.

PEACE AND JUSTICE… AT-ONE-MENT
THE ESSENTIAL FIRST STEP IN ENDING ISLAMIC HATRED AND TERRORISM IS PEACE AND JUSTICE BETWEEN ISRAEL AND PALESTINE!

Pehaps we can decide issues on the basis of facts and evidence, i.e. rationalism, and not our ethnicity or place of birth. Start with: ANTI-SEMITISM IS EVIL, just as is anti-any-ethic-group. But what about ANTI-ISRAEL, based on the behavoir of that nation?

We Americans need to stop playing word games. For example, if we apply Webster's definition of "TERRORISM" to the already-forgotten recent Middle East war between Israel and Hezbollah, and use OBJECTIVE MEASUREMENTS, then Israel and not Hezbollah was the biggest terrorist in this tragedy, with 50 to 1 non-combatant deaths for Lebanon vs. Israel (2/3 of Israeli dead were soldiers), and an even greater disparity in terms of infrastructure and the long-term suffering of people. Israel could have fought Hezbollah up close and personal, but instead involved a million innocent Lebanonese in an asymmetrical war using United States-supplied warplanes and smart bombs. The truth of any terror lies not in words or spin, but in its consequences.

Of course, the word terrorism is reserved for our enemies, and not part of our terms of endearment with Israel. However, before we consign what happened to Lebanon and its people to "collateral damage" and it completely fades from our short attention span, perhaps we can find a more appropriate term to describe ravaged Lebanon, such as "collateral devastation." This will ease our conscience, and as the pendulum of action and reaction/cause and effect swings our way, we won't just sit and wonder why these terrible terrorists hate us and want to kill us (they do 9-11, we do Lebanon, and so on). Remember too that Israel’s 1982 bombing and invasion of Lebanon created Hezbollah, and now this most recent overreaction war has made Hezbollah far more powerful within Lebanon (good judgment and strategy, Israel?).

We human beings think and rationalize in words; for this reason words decide issues. Many people use words imprecisely or for advantage, and not for truth. The prime example here, anti-Semitism and anti-Israel are not the same thing. If they were the same, then the Israeli government would be infallible, which is the way we in the United States treat this friend. The decades and numbers are against Israel, and stupidly their government has chosen THE ROAD TO CATASTROPHE with their tough-guy terror (seen often, even on American TV). Unfortunately, the United States has to go along too because no one can speak the truth of words and reality. Our one-sided policy in the Middle East is a disaster.

Bipsy Quee
If you see me as supporting all of the same values as Prager then you are missing something, although I am not sure what.

I suppose the easiest way to put it is that Prager sees people who define themselves according to their principles rather than their religious or ethnic identities as nihilists. I see them as adopting enlightenment values. And while he cherry picks a few examples to argue that what he calls non-jewish jews have a history to be embarred about, I note that if one takes this group as a whole it is one that jews should be proud of.

Gestell
The conservative opposition to Non-Jewish Jews is about their politics - not their Jewishness. It's the the old leftist trick, however, to immediately label such opposition, anti-Semitism. It's the same tactic used in liberals' attempt to end debate by employing name calling such as homophobic, racist, etc.

Try noting the difference for a change.

It's the money...
We are all bad, okay!!?? Jesus said: "No one is good, no! not one."
The only reason why Soros can do it and do it effectively (be harmful to Jews, Christians, and American Nationalists/Patriotics, and commom, peaceful people) is because he has enormous financial resources. Let us just have the comfort of knowing that nothing will go unpunished at the end. Especially for a "half-cooked" Jew like Soros, Jesus said: "..becuase of you my Name is blasphemed!;..at the end of age, "...it will be easier for Sodom than for you!";"..I wish that you were either hot or cold. But you're like a luke warm water! I will spew you out of my mouth!"

Hizbollah vs. Likud
Dennis Writes:
" Noam Chomsky has devoted much of his life to working against America and Israel....he traveled to Lebanon to appear with Hizbollah leader Sayyed Nasrallah and lend his support to a group that is committed to the annihilation of Israel"

How is it that we hate Hizbollah for being "committed to the annihilation of Israel" but we admire the Likud party even though it's dedicated to there never, ever being an independent Palestinian state?

Treasure Your "Non-Jewish Jews", Dennis

And learn from them.

I learned about respect for intellectual rigor, empathy for the underdog, and hatred for hypocrisy by reading Chiam Potok and Philip Roth. Sure, some of these 'Non-Jewish Jews' are simply misguided, but more are canaries in your coal mine. You'd do better to consider their positions instead of analyzing their psyches.

reply to conman
OK, so what exactly is the "difference" in turbo55's argument, such as it is? Are you really trying to tell me that it's not anti-Jewish to call all American Jews traitors, or to give them the old "love it or leave it" challenge? Remember, your friend turbo55 also said that most Jews wish for America to fall. Is that what you consider to be legitimate ideological argument, or isn't it really something else?

Ask me, I'm a Jew
I'll answer one question that I've read, and the main question is why? I'm personally lumping it into my experiences, using my family as examples.

All of us are not religious, however, I'm the only one among them and my ENTIRE family, who is a conservative, Pro Israel, Pro Christian, Anti ACLU.

My brother who is an atheist, when he turned 18 changed his last name so no one could identify him as a Jew. He's as Left as they come, and an imbecile.

My sister, an atheist as well, is extremely Left, she hates and fears Christians and believes they have an agenda to take over the US. Muslims? She celebrates Muslims!!! (I'm talking the bad kind.)

My parents: Non-Jewish Jews as well, however, I just learned today that they believe 911 was a conspiracy trumped up by Bush and that he and Rudy G planted bombs in the WTC and the pentagon......

I have a crisis of conscience, I am extremely depressed and embarrassed by this. I knew my parents were Leftists, but I had no clue that they were drawn into that insanity. I felt sick all day today. I don't know how I'll recover.

So, why are they like that? Why do they hate the right, deny their heritage, vote Democrat when really, the only ones who would protect our roots are republicans?

Guilt and Self Hatred.

The guilt in my opinion, stems from the holocaust. Not for the fact that some lived to tell the tale and multiply. But since Jews (along with othe groups) were hunted down, collected en masse, and destroyed....The last thing on a US Jew's brain is to destroy any ounce of humanity regardless who they are. Even if it may be your enemy.

US Jews have pride and self respect, and they feel by not wanting to destroy our enemies, they are a higher person, not stooping to the level of murderers and bigots.

I think personally, they are truly misguided, and they need to move on and know that it's ok to hate someone who wants to kill you, instead of being irrate that your Auntie Shelly stole Bubbe's recipe for Matzo Ball soup.

As far as wanting to deny a heritage, Self Hatred, I think it attributes to growing up and life experiences. We were teased, of course, and in every day conversations with our non-Jewish friends, we'd hear "He Jew'd me down on a deal." Or if a car cut us off, my friend would shout "You f*cking Jew!" when the driver was oriental, LOL.

I'm telling you, it was as natural to have "Jew" be the negative blurp for any catastrophy. It can get to you after awhile. That's why my brother and sister denounced their heritage and pretend they're something else.

Me? I'd get defensive and pissed off at my friends and yell at them. I have respect for my roots even though I know nothing about the religion.

So there you have it, from a Jew's perspective in a very general and boiled down version. Any questions, shoot.

reply to September12Republican
I guess conservatives have a real blind spot on this subject. I guess you really can't see that turbo55's original utterance was as clear an example of anti-Jewish bigotry as one could want, this side of the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion." He said (1) that most America Jews want America to fall. I conclude from this that for turbo55 (and those who agree with him) most American Jews are actual or potential traitors, enimies of this country. Now maybe you don't know anything about the claims made by the Nazis, but this sort of assertion was high on their list. Your guy said (2) that American Jews should love their country or leave it. Once more, a vintage Nazi move--accuse the Jews of betrayal. If turbo55 did NOT know he was knocking on the door of the Final Solution, it's because he has no clue about what he's saying.

ONLY A TOTAL MORON
WOULD MAKE A COMPARISON LIKE THIS:

" Flaming Liberal Multiculturalist writes: Tuesday, February, 27, 2007 6:09 PM
Hizbollah vs. Likud
Dennis Writes:
" Noam Chomsky has devoted much of his life to working against America and Israel....he traveled to Lebanon to appear with Hizbollah leader Sayyed Nasrallah and lend his support to a group that is committed to the annihilation of Israel"

How is it that we hate Hizbollah for being "committed to the annihilation of Israel" but we admire the Likud party even though it's dedicated to there never, ever being an independent Palestinian state?"

Shells
I've been repeating my question for years and it has been ignored.
It is an good answer.
Thank you.
No questions.

NEVER IN HISTORY HAS THERE BEEN A COUNTY
CALLED "PALESTINE"!

ANTI ISRAEL IS ANTI "SEMITISM" AND ALL THOSE WHO DENY IT USE NAZI PROPAGANDA IDEOLOGY IN THEIR TERMINOLOGY! THE WAY OF TRUE JEW HATERS IS TO USE DIVIDE AND CONQUARE APPROACH AND TO USE HITLER TYPE HALF LIES IN THEIR AGENDA!

ONLY FOOLS BELIEVE THAT THERE WILL EVER BE PEACE BETWEEN "PALESTINIAN" TERRORISTS (THEY ARE ALL TERRORISTS OR TERRORIST SUPPORTERS) AND ISRAEL.

ISRAEL IN PIECES IS THEIR AGENDA AND THE AGENDA OF ALL THAT SUPPORT THEM!!!

ISRAELS RADICAL LEFTIST GOVERNMENT SUPPORTED BY ULTRA RADICAL LEFT "PEACE NOW" AND THE MAIN LEFTIST NEWS PAPER HAARETZ IS THE CAUSE OF THE PROBLEMS IN ISRAEL WITH THEIR DEFEATIST APPEASEMENT POLICIES!

AND THE BIGGEST FOOLS THINK ISLAM TERRORISM WILL END WHEN ISRAEL IS DESTROYED BY MUSLIMS!

" JohnCitizen writes: Tuesday, February, 27, 2007 5:51 PM
PEACE AND JUSTICE… AT-ONE-MENT
THE ESSENTIAL FIRST STEP IN ENDING ISLAMIC HATRED AND TERRORISM IS PEACE AND JUSTICE BETWEEN ISRAEL AND PALESTINE!"

"Pehaps we can decide issues on the basis of facts and evidence, i.e. rationalism, and not our ethnicity or place of birth. Start with: ANTI-SEMITISM IS EVIL, just as is anti-any-ethic-group. But what about ANTI-ISRAEL, based on the behavoir of that nation?"

What are the odds?
Let's put it bluntly to those Jewish Americans who always vote for, and support, liberal Democrats who want to cut and run and bury their heads in the sand.

What are the odds of five million Jews in Israel surviving if the 25 million Arabs, militant Islamists, take over the Middle East?

Only time will tell if the fanaticism of Islamists dies out before they strike--and destroy--their most hated enemy. And nobody can deny that the Muslim birthrate is the kicker in this deck.

As a conservative, I wouldn't want to take that bet.

Donaldd writes:
" Tuesday, February, 27, 2007 4:03 PM
Bucko
America was incensed into war by Pacifists?
Pacificists in Bush's Whitehouse failed America by attacking Iraq for no legal or logical Reason?"

Does anyone remember the UN resolutions and sanctions against Saddam Husein and Iraq? Not only was the USA's attack on Iraq legal, it was endorsed by the majority of nations in the UN.

No one on the Security Council vetoed these resolutions, we were justified, as well as legal to make Iraq obey the International Community.

Evidently y'all also forgot that the 1967 war against Israel was started by the countries around it; Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, not by the Palestinians.

Who refused Palestinians a place in their own country? The very same Arab countries who tried to wipe Israel off the map. Notably, Jordan, at its border, killed thousands of Palestinians fleeing Israel from a war they helped start.

The message in Prager's column is that Soros, knowing from personal experience all the persecution the Jews have suffered, is inexplicably supporting the very people who made, and continue to make, war on the Jewish Nation. Is this not insanity?

Just a little reminder
Just because a person does not like the way Jews
grabbed the land from the Palestinians (oops, were given
the land by the UNITED NATIONS), who have since been relegated to their own special brand of reservations
- being told where they can live, where they can work, where their kids can go to school, and who, up to 9/11,
where outgunned down in the streets by a ratio of two to
one, who are not allowed to be part of a military, militia or anything other than being a 2nd class citizen
in their own land - - does not mean
that he/she is an anti-semite. An anti-semite hates Jews
and wants to treat the Jews in the same way that the Jews
are now treating the Palestinians. Certainly there has
been more than enough anti-Semitism in this world over
the centuries, but let's at least keep the definition
accurate.

An anti-Zionist and an anti-Semite may be, but are not
a priori the same thing.

The fundamentalists love having the Jews in control
of Israel and they apparently have no regard for the
lives of the descendants of the first born son of
Abraham. The fundamentalists, of course, know that the
end of time is approaching, even though they are told
in the Bible that they do not know. That is why they
love having Jews in control of Israel. But ask them
if they expect to see Jews in heaven. The answer is
quite interesting and it is - only if they turn to
Christianity.

Why are they thus?
We have our fair share of these unfortunates in Australia,but the explanation why they behave in this manner is shallow and seems to indicate any person without religious faith would act similarly,which is utterly ridiculous.
Prager seems to relate all behaviour to religion,or lack of it.
I would assume many leaders of Israel,who achieved great works,were either agnostic,atheistic or not religious.
Its probably more to do with an innate character flaw-a basic egotistical cowardice which they are inwardly trying to justify .
They feel if they attack fellow Jews and Israel,this will make them "good Jews",looked at in a new favourable light and at last fully accepted by the world at large.
Their shameful,embarrasing heritage will have disappeared.

Why dont they just shut up,or better still, convert?

miki

jamieos re: Soros
Hi Mom!

GunnyG
Yeah, that was my Mom you replied to; I think I mentioned that "Soros -> Antichrist" meme to her first, I am glad she has absorbed it!

She's a wonderful lady...

Self-hating Jews?
As usual, Prager is full of bullhide, though he's right in saying that many American Jews (most?) are not religious. Probably the highest percentage of atheists among any group is among Jews.

That doesn't bother me. Jews as a whole are smart, a bookish people, cultured, creative, improvisors, hard workers, heavy thinkers. If they want to be disbelievers, fine. Better than being hardshell and militant orthodox who think God deals in real estate. Better than being Islamic crazies or myopic Christians who worship the Bible.

Several facts don't get much airing in the media, however. One is the amount of hostility toward Christianity some Jews have. Understandable, perhaps, in light of history, but Jewish resistance to Christian traditions could lead to conflict that will lead to more anti-Semitism. Don't want to say that, but it's true. If they insist upon banning Christmas trees and such, beware of the backlash.

The Middle East mess also gets only warped attention in most of the media. Americans have been brainwashed (most of them) into suspecting and even detesting Palestinians. Israel has a strong case, but so do the Palestinians. The USA bias in favor of Israel, including $100 billion and more in financial support over the years, is perhaps the initial reason for bitterness among Muslims. Why are we so callous when it comes to the suffering of Palestinians? This could have been avoided had USA politicians not been afraid of AIPAC etc. We should be genuinely pro-Israeli and pro-Palestinian at the same time. That is the only way to bring peace and guarantee Israeli security in the long run.

I especially tire of the claim that the Jews were promised a homeland in the Holy Land by the British (Balfour). What right did the British Empire have to give away someone else's territory? Plus - the Balfour Declaration indicated that no injury should be done to those already living there. 59 years later and Palestinians still haven't been compensated for homes and lands seized in 1948, and again when Israel launched a preemptive war forty years ago in 1967.

I could go on and on, but most of you have read all this before and probably have made up your minds already.

God bless the Jews for the enormous contribution they have made and continue to make to civilization in many different fields. At the same time, their great gifts to society can be overshadowed if they (1) continue to assault innocent Christian cultural traditions in the courts and/or (2) if justice isn't achieved for the Palestinians in the Holy Land.

'Nuff sed. Keep smiling.

JohnCitizen writes: JEW HATE TIRADE:
"We Americans need to stop playing word games. For example, if we apply Webster's definition of "TERRORISM" to the already-forgotten recent Middle East war between Israel and Hezbollah, and use OBJECTIVE MEASUREMENTS, then Israel and not Hezbollah was the biggest terrorist in this tragedy, with 50 to 1 non-combatant deaths for Lebanon vs. Israel (2/3 of Israeli dead were soldiers), and an even greater disparity in terms of infrastructure and the long-term suffering of people. Israel could have fought Hezbollah up close and personal, but instead involved a million innocent Lebanonese in an asymmetrical war using United States-supplied warplanes and smart bombs. The truth of any terror lies not in words or spin, but in its consequences.

Of course, the word terrorism is reserved for our enemies, and not part of our terms of endearment with Israel. However, before we consign what happened to Lebanon and its people to "collateral damage" and it completely fades from our short attention span, perhaps we can find a more appropriate term to describe ravaged Lebanon, such as "collateral devastation." This will ease our conscience, and as the pendulum of action and reaction/cause and effect swings our way, we won't just sit and wonder why these terrible terrorists hate us and want to kill us (they do 9-11, we do Lebanon, and so on). Remember too that Israel’s 1982 bombing and invasion of Lebanon created Hezbollah, and now this most recent overreaction war has made Hezbollah far more powerful within Lebanon (good judgment and strategy, Israel?).

We human beings think and rationalize in words; for this reason words decide issues. Many people use words imprecisely or for advantage, and not for truth. The prime example here, anti-Semitism and anti-Israel are not the same thing. If they were the same, then the Israeli government would be infallible, which is the way we in the United States treat this friend. The decades and numbers are against Israel, and stupidly their government has chosen THE ROAD TO CATASTROPHE with their tough-guy terror (seen often, even on American TV). Unfortunately, the United States has to go along too because no one can speak the truth of words and reality. Our one-sided policy in the Middle East is a disaster."-----------------

YOU SUPPORT HIZBALLAH TERRORISTS THAT ARE ON THE UNITED STATES LIST OF TERRORIST ORGANIZATIONS AND YOU CONDEMN ISRAEL FOR DEFENDING THEMSELVES!

UNDER INTERNATIONAL LAW, NO ONE IN A WAR ZONE IS A CIVILIAN. BY YOUR JEW AND ISRAEL HATE EVALUATION YOU WOULD ALSO CALL AMERICA A TERRORIST STATE BECAUSE WE DROPPED THE ATOMIC BOMBS ON HIROSHIMA AND NAGGASAKY. AND ALSO OUR TOTAL BOMBING OF GERMANY IN "CIVILIAN" AREAS. BOTH LED TO THE SURRENDER OF THE ENEMY!

ISRAEL LOST THE WAR WITH LEBANON BECAUSE OF THE PATHETIC PASSIVE WAY THE FAR LEFTIST APPEASEMENT GOVERNMENT FOUGHT IT WITH THEIR LEFTIST CONCERN TO BE LIKED BY THE WORLD!

ISRAEL SHOULD HAVE OBLITERATED THE ENEMY! THE ONLY GOOD LEBANESE ARE THE LEBANON CHRISTIANS AND THEY SUPPORT ISRAEL. THE MUSLIMS SHOULD BE DRIVEN OUT OF LEBANON BECAUSE IS IS HISTORICALLY A CHRISTIAN COUNTRY. AND IT WOULD HAVE BEEN IF THE WORLD DID NOT COME DOWN ON ISRAEL IN 1982 WHEN THE PLO WERE ABOUT TO BE DESTROYED WHICH WOULD HAVE ENDED THE "PALESTINIAN" PROBLEM. AND THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN PEACE IN ISRAEL TODAY!

THE FAR LEFTIST ISRAEL APPEASEMENT, LAND SURRENDERING, GOVERNMENT SUPPORTED BY RADICAL LEFTIST "PEACE NOW" AND LEFTIST ISRAEL NEWS MEDIA HEADED BY HAARETZ IS THE REASON FOR CONTINUOUS CONFLICT. ISRAEL MUST TOTALLY DESTROY THE ENEMY THAT WANTS TO DESTROY THEM!

YOUR POST REFLECTS A TOTAL HATRED OF ISRAEL AS A COUNTY!

BMT on Lebanon
Just to correct the record. Christians in Lebanon are split. The largest group, the Maronites, are generally pro-Israel. The Maronites, ironically, were big fans of the falangists (Franco people) in Spain! Many other Christian factions are neutral or anti-Israel.

The overwhelming majority of Christian Palestinians are caught between Israel, whom they dislike, and Muslims, more and more influenced by Hamas. Many have been leaving the Holy Land as a result.

Israel's sole hope of survival in the long haul is making peace. This will require: (1) all settlements dismantled on the West Bank except where land exchanges may be made; (2) East Jerusalem becomes capital of Palestine; (3) Palestinians receive compensation for lands illegally seized. Israel could have made peace from a position of strength in 1967, but fanatics like BMT scuttled all such possibilities. With an Israel and Palestine side by side, living in peace and mutual respect, the entire Holy Land could achieve concord and prosperity, to everyone's benefit.

This whole notion of God giving the Jews the Holy Land forever is a pious myth - the kind that makes religion look silly and dangerous to outsiders. Sadly, millions of Christian fundamentalists embrace the same nonsense.

American Jews and Iraq
US Jews toughest foes of Iraq war
by Haviv Rettig
US Jews toughest foes of Iraq war
by Haviv Rettig

Asked if "the United States made a mistake in sending troops to Iraq," 77% of American Jews said it had, while only 21% believed the deployment was not a mistake. This figure is in marked contrast to the American average, where only 52% indicated opposition to the war and 46% indicated support...

"This just goes to prove that the argument put forward by some players in America and elsewhere that the Jews pushed Bush to go to Iraq is little more than anti-Semitic rubbish," Col. (res.) Eran Lerman, head of the American Jewish Committee's Israel/Middle East office in Jerusalem, told The Jerusalem Post on Sunday...

The study also found that, though Protestants as a whole were evenly divided on the war (49% for and 48% against), African-American Protestants (who were grouped with other Protestants because the study divided according to religions) opposed the war in equal measure to the Jews, with 78% opposing the war and 18% supporting.

The Jews even outpaced Americans with "no religious affiliation," who took second-place with 66% opposed and 33% in favor. Catholics came in third with 53% opposed and 46% in favor. Mormons, meanwhile, were most supportive of the war, with 72% in favor and 27% against.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1171894518362
&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

turbo55>You're a JEW hating NAZI:
HITLER would be proud of you using his NAZI PROPAGANDA! Do you wear a SS UNIFORM when you write your posts?

" turbo55 writes: Tuesday, February, 27, 2007 6:51 PM
USS Liberty
Maybe another reason why Chomsky and Soros hate being Jews is because the Israeli government is a worse liar than the U.S. government. Or maybe it's one and the same. The Jewish controlled U.S. congress would not even investigate the deliberate attack on the USS Liberty on June 8th 1967. 34 U.S. sailors were killed and 172 were wounded. Attacking Israeli gunboats were within 50 feet of the ship and could not read the name of the ship? The American ensign was flying high and could not have been mistaken. Go read about it. It will make your blood boil. Of course the jewish apologists will accuse me of being anti semitic. I don't care. I have thicker skin than they do.
Another little interesting twist to this tale is that Admiral McCain was also involved in the cover-up. Go figure.

Jewish Hitlers
Given their politics, and racial hatred of blacks and Jews, the term " Jewish Hitler" is appropriate to Chomsky and Soros.

Soros even finances racist hate groups, in effect paying violent racists to exterminate blacks and Jews.

JohnCitizen:
The real difference between civilian casualties
incurred by both sides in the latest Israeli -
Hezbollah conflict rests, not in the raw
numbers, but in the fact that ONE side - Hez-
bollah - DELIBERATELY TARGETS innocents. In
this, they are the same as the other vicious
Islamic terror groups so numerous (and popular)
in the Middle East.
Since they then HID BEHIND CIVILIANS to shield
themselves from Israel's justfiable response,
it could be fairly argued that Hezbollah was,
in fact, responsible for ALL the civilian deaths
in that conflict.
How any American can express support for ANY
of these bloody-handed Muslim terror groups is
mystfying to me, especially after 9/11.

"The enemy of my enemy is my friend."
Go Israel!

Jews and Iraq War
True, today Jews are more likely to consider the Iraq War a mistake. They are smarter and better-read than most Americans.

At the same time, it was the neo-con crowd around Bush - including Wolfowitz, Feith, Perle, Wurmser, Abrams, etc. - who helped push us into that war. AIPAC, Commentary, Bill Crystal, some influential Jewish columnists, all beat the war drums - and loudly. Many of them were motivated in large part by Saddam's encouragement of terrorism against Israel. Understandable, but see the mess we're in now. And guess where Wolfowitz. a key warmaker is now? Head of the World Bank! Miserabile dictu!

We must get out of Iraq, use diplomacy instead of arrogant war threats, compel Israel to dismantle its expanding settlements on the West Bank - three essential steps toward winning the war against terrorism and achieving peace. The AIPAC and allies must no longer have such influence on our foreign policy in the Middle East.

I have been to Israel four times and love that nation. We must think and act boldly or it will eventually be overwhelmed, as in Biblical times.

Now I'll shut up and get ready for bed. Keep smiling.


And you have proof?
>Soros even finances racist hate groups, in effect paying violent racists to exterminate blacks and Jews.<

Anytime someone makes an accusation like this without supporting evidence, you can be sure it's a lie.

If you can't make a point without hurling around slanderous propoganda, you're worse than your intended target.

Roy, The Earth is the Lord's, including
The holy Land. And he himself gave that land to the Jews, his chosen people for his name sake because he declared it from ancient days, and he used the British as his vessel to get it done.

In fact the lord God almighty used Hitler to bring about the holocaust and then used Stalin and Churchhill and Roosevelt to bring it to an end so that the world would accept the establishment of Israel because of the terrible suffering of the Jews.

Then God almighty used the U.S. involvment in Vietnam to save Isreal from destruction in 1973
during the Yom Kippor war.

Because had it not been for the huge learning curve that took place over the many years of that conflict which allowed the U.S. to devalop the weapons and tactics needed to counter the SA-2 SAM anti Aircraft Batteries at a cost of 1500 lost combat aircraft in the skies above Veitnam. Israel would have been annihilated, because Israel's entire airforce was shot out of the sky in the first few days using that very same weapon system, and then america resupplied them with the technology we devaloped against those weapons. which gave Israel the victory.


"ROY">IF ISRAEL HAD RIGHTEST GOVERNMENT
IN 1967 THEN THE ARABS WOULD HAVE BEEN FORCED OUT OF HISTORICALLY AND LEGALLY AND BIBLICALLY ISRAEL LAND AND THERE WOULD BE PEACE TODAY!

CHIEF TERRORIST LEADER ARAFAT IN THE CREATION OF THE PLO IN 1964 WAS THE FIRST TO USE THE TERM "PALESTINIANS" AND THE LYING ARAB PROPAGANDA CONTINUES AND IS USED BY ALL WHO WANT ISRAEL IN PIECES! "PALESTINIANS" ONLY REPRODUCE AND LIE AND KILL JEWS, JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE JEWS, JUST LIKE THE NAZIS DID BUT THEY HAVE ADDED INCENTIVE OF GOING TO THEIR ALLAH FOR 72 VIRGINS. THEIR CHILDREN ARE TRAINED TO HATE AND KILL! DEATH IS THEIR GLORY! THE ARAB COUNTRIES FORCED THEM OUT IN THE EARLY 1900s BECAUSE OF THEIR 'CAST' SYSTEM AND BECAUSE THE ARABS CONSIDER THEM "SUB HUMAN BEINGS"

THANK G-D FOR THE CHRISTIAN FUNDAMENTALIST AND NATIONALIST JEWS!

YOU'RE PROPOSAL IS FOR THE DEMISE OF ISRAEL AS A COUNTRY, REPLACED BY "PALESTINE". AND THE PATHETIC SELF HATING LEFTIST JEWS AND LEFTIST CHRISTIANS IN ISRAEL AND THE UNITED STATES AND IN THE WORLD, AGREE WITH YOU!

" Roy writes: Tuesday, February, 27, 2007 9:26 PM
BMT on Lebanon
Just to correct the record. Christians in Lebanon are split. The largest group, the Maronites, are generally pro-Israel. The Maronites, ironically, were big fans of the falangists (Franco people) in Spain! Many other Christian factions are neutral or anti-Israel.

The overwhelming majority of Christian Palestinians are caught between Israel, whom they dislike, and Muslims, more and more influenced by Hamas. Many have been leaving the Holy Land as a result.

Israel's sole hope of survival in the long haul is making peace. This will require: (1) all settlements dismantled on the West Bank except where land exchanges may be made; (2) East Jerusalem becomes capital of Palestine; (3) Palestinians receive compensation for lands illegally seized. Israel could have made peace from a position of strength in 1967, but fanatics like BMT scuttled all such possibilities. With an Israel and Palestine side by side, living in peace and mutual respect, the entire Holy Land could achieve concord and prosperity, to everyone's benefit.

This whole notion of God giving the Jews the Holy Land forever is a pious myth - the kind that makes religion look silly and dangerous to outsiders. Sadly, millions of Christian fundamentalists embrace the same nonsense.

Soros & Chomsky
withdrawal instructions

lon
Your statement begs the question, doesn't it?

What constitutes "principles"?

If one allows that only the "enlightenment" world view qualifies, then I suppose you are correct in your judgment of Prager. And of those he chooses to disagree with.

But that's a circular argument. It would better reflect on your argument if you would first establish that the ethnic and religious foundation of the Jewish identity is not a basis for determining what is or is not principled, since that is what your argument rests on, and avoid mischaracterizing his thesis as simplistically as "vilify(ing) anyone who leaves the tribe".

It is apparent that the conflict you have with Mr. Prager is not that he does not argue over principles. It is that the principles he supports do not meet with your approval.

Soros & Choamsky
both support anti Us organizations, Soros with moveon.org the peace at any cost movement,up to and including becoming either proletariat or dhimmi. and while I can't remeber the name of it the no borders and drugs aplenty group, at least the public will be so stoned out of their minds they won't notice their freedoms being leeched away from them.
Choamsky's pal Nasrallah has shown his views with his "Death to America " speeches, and actions in Lebanon since 83 and before.
Several posters like to state how horrible and repressive this country is (Donaldd and Kimberly), But I wonder if they have ever left the US and seen how the rest of the world lives, beyond the usual tourist areas. I kind of doubt it.
Ranting against Turbo55 for being a anti-semite,while he has stated that his family had help Jews,partisans and allied troops during WWII is kind of funny. Projecting is what I think it is called.

shell
Thanks for your personal, Jewish perspective on why Jews reject their heritage. However, I didn't understand the following: "The guilt in my opinion, stems from the holocaust. Not for the fact that some lived to tell the tale and multiply. But since Jews (along with othe groups) were hunted down, collected en masse, and destroyed....The last thing on a US Jew's brain is to destroy any ounce of humanity regardless who they are. Even if it may be your enemy.

US Jews have pride and self respect, and they feel by not wanting to destroy our enemies, they are a higher person, not stooping to the level of murderers and bigots."

If their feelings of guilt does not spring from the "guilt of the survivor", why do the facts you present in this quote produce guilt? Feelings of moral superiority, yes. but guilt?

Good Point,Mechrep
Exactly how I feel in my previous post-mostly just cowardice.
Its especially to be condemned with these traitors because Israel is at war.
They get special delight in actively siding with the enemy,mostly picking the moment to cause the most harm.
Hanoi Jane was an example of how they work.
These haters are always ready to provide some wayout anti Israel leftwing opinion whenever some newspaper wants Jewish corroboration of their anti everything point of view,generally to do with Israels security
They can then say-see,even the Jews themselves dont approve-blah,blah.

Shell, nonbelieving Jews
are self loathing because they reject God's plan of redemption of mankind and they harken back for a world without division, but as I posted earlier at 4:39 pm at one time mankind did have one language and were united under one system at the tower of Babel and it was against God and that is why God confounded their language and scattered them so he may seperate out a people unto himself.

Jesus was a Jew
John 8:19 {Then they asked him, "Where is your father?" "You do not know Me or My Father," Jesus replied. "If you knew Me, you would know my Father also."}

Modern Jews, at times, repeat the mistakes of their fathers. Yet I know of no greater race of man. I encourage all Christians to pray for Israel. Psalm 122:6 {Pray for the peace of Jerusalem}

Touchy, Touchy There, BMT
BMT (who I'll henceforward refer to as 'bmt', in the hopes that he'll learn the joys of lower case) writes:

"ONLY A TOTAL MORON WOULD MAKE A COMPARISON LIKE THIS:
....How is it that we hate Hizbollah for being "committed to the annihilation of Israel" but we admire the Likud party even though it's dedicated to there never, ever being an independent Palestinian state?"

Well, then it should be a pretty easy question to actually answer, shouldn't it? (And I mean, uh, actually *answering* it, as opposed to spewing irrelevant insults.)

bmt:
"NEVER IN HISTORY HAS THERE BEEN A COUNTY
CALLED "PALESTINE"!

So I've read. The maps had also been clear of countries named "Israel" for, oh, coming up on two millenia or so. I suggest to you that this is not especially relevant. You ARE aware that in 1947 the hand of Yahweh did NOT descend from the clouds and re-bestow the promised land upon the chosen people, right? You DO know that it was a bunch of British and UN beaurocrats, right? And that they mandated the creation of a country called 'Israel' and another country called 'Palestine', both of which have the same right to exist, right?

bmt:
"ONLY FOOLS BELIEVE THAT THERE WILL EVER BE PEACE BETWEEN "PALESTINIAN" TERRORISTS (THEY ARE ALL TERRORISTS OR TERRORIST SUPPORTERS) AND ISRAEL."

Ahh (or 'Oy') bmt, those absolute statements about an entire group of people make me *very* uneasy. What do the following two statements have in common?

1) All Palestinians are terrorists!

2) All Jews are moneygrubbers!



BMT
Israel DID attack the USS Liberty. True or False?

Answer.... TRUE.

BMT
The Jews were given a defined piece of land in which to settle. However, Israel seems to believe that it is quite fine to settle (or "squat") on other countries' land and then attempt to grab it. Shock upon shock, it angers those whose land is being grabbed.

I support the existence of Israel; however, I do not support this policy of conquest or "land grabbing", then using AIPAC (Jewish lobby) to try to get Americsns to pay for said conquest, the Jewish-controlled media to tell us why we need to support their actions and finally, the anti-defamation league, etc. to try to label anyone, anti-semitic, who has the audacity to point out the facts.

Lionhearted and BMT
Geez, I hate to sound flippant, but you guys and some others make the sort of statements that cause people to question the intelligence and/or mental stability of people who embrace religion.

I'm religious, attend church every weekend without fail, but the idea that God has a chosen people is offensive. As I recall the Bible says that God is no respecter of different races etc. "Neither Jew nor Greek, etc." He regards all equally. So, this notion of a chosen people is absurd and an insult to most of the world.

What we need to find is a way that provides justice and peace both for the Israelis and the Palestinians. I'm sure Jesus would proclaim that. He always seemed to be siding with the downtrodden, and both the Jews and the Palestinians certainly have been put upon. Why is it that so many so-called Christians (and too many pious Jews and Muslims) are so prejudiced, so ready to kill in the name of the Almighty? Haven't they any regard for human life other than that of their particular group? Isn't a Palestinian life worth the same in God's sight as an Israeli life - and three times as many Palestinians have been killed as Israelis? Why are we so many indifferent in the face of slaughter, whether of Jews or Arabs? Haven't we all grieved enough to know the harrowing pain of horrendous loss? Why aren't we all working for peace with open minds and loving hearts?

Just this morning I heard one 'good Christian' say on TV that we should 'nuke Iran'! Sounds just like Jesus and the prophets, doesn't he? I have come to the conclusion that unless we're sincere peacemakers we ought to toss aside any claims to be Christians or Jews - or good Muslims, for that matter. As I recall, Jesus said something about "doing unto others...." and even 'love your enemies'.

Those who beat the wardrums and preach hate are poor Christians, Jews and Muslims - and rotten Americans as well.

Have a good day.

Bipsy Quee
I suppose if you want to take "I am a member of ethnic group x and so I believe y because my ancestors of group x believed y" to be a principle I have no interest in arguing that point. Although I do think there is something disturbing in the idea that Soros, a hungarian jew who moved to the United States where he made a fortune, is self-hating if he opposes certain policies of Israel. It rather undercuts the idea of a principle if one has some required loyalty to the decisions of other people because you share more of their genes.

My objection was to the idea that ones ethnicity should determine ones principles. It is to the credit of many non-jewish jews that they have taken the question of what principles to adopt seriously rather than simply accepting the principles given to them. It is to the credit of judiasm, at least as a culture, that it produces so many people who are willing to take these principles seriously.

It was Prager, not me, that accused people who disagreed with him of dengenerating into nihilism. I think that the first two on his list were deeply misguided, and the third at least over the top, but noone on his list can accurately be described as a nihilist. But then perhaps Prager was not going for accuracy.

Donaldd writes:
"America was incensed into war by Pacifists?"

Yes! The tepid (pacifist) responses of the Clinton Administration to the WTC bombing in '93 to the attack on the USS Cole only served to embolden not only Bin Laden and Al Qaeda, but Hussein's resistance to UN inspection of Iraqi weapons sites. The UN was run out of Iraq because Saddam knew Slick Willie wouldn't do anything about it (pacifism). Maybe a cruise missile here or a missile there, but Hussein knew he was personally safe.

Before you scoff at this theory you should be aware that it's the main subject of JFK's 1940 Harvard Thesis and his book titled: "Why England Slept". In it, JFK notes a point at which Hitler could have been stopped with ease, but the pacifists in Great Britain and the rest of Europe had too great a political influence.

Therefore, I stand by my statement that pacifism causes war. Not the right wing, not the military-industrial complex, not war mongers. As always, Pacifism = WAR!

Roy, what was God's purpose at Babel?
I would like to see you explain that. Their is only one why of redemtion and that is through the shed blood of God's only begoten Son Jesus Christ.

In a way you are right God is not a respecter of persons, all who believe on him and make him lord of their life shall be saved.

But we have to recognize the process of how God has accomplished that. Which means that anyone that insist that they can reject that process will be rejected by God.

Muslims have rejected that process. And also Non-believing Jews. At the time of Jesus many Jews rejected him, but their spirtual eyes were blinded to the truth so that the word of God may be fullfilled as foretold by the Prophets which predicted the scattering of the Jews throughout the globe and then at the time just before the last days before the return of Jesus, there would be a return of the Jewish people back to the land God gave them for an inheritance inspite of overwhelming odds against it to be a sign of the soon return of Jesus.

This was done so that all may see and believe on the Lord Jesus that no one may perish but have everlasting life.


Lionhearted, don't be so narrow
I'm always amazed how Christian fundamentalists have taken the scriptures and turned a loving God into a wrathful tyrant. Like the notion that all who don't believe in Christ go to hell. If we're expected to forgive one another 7 x 70 times, surely the merciful Lord can understand why millions don't accept one particular interpretation of the Bible and forgive them.

Besides, the Bible says that Christ has other sheep not of this flock. How can we stand in judgment on those of other faiths? Maybe Jesus was referring to them.

I stayed with a Hindu family in India some years ago. Believe me, if they don't get to heaven I'm sure you and I won't get there. True, they bowed before what we call idols, but they were sophisticated people who understood that behind these 'idols' was the Creator, Preserver and Savior of the universe. Too many Christians worship the Bible, another form of idolatry. Hate to say it, but there's a lot of stuff in the Bible that people of intelligence and compassion reject. Should we stone people to death who commit adultery? Of course not. Reread some of the nonsense in Leviticus and Deuteronomy and elsewhere.

And, by the way, do you love your enemies? That's what Jesus commanded. If we're supposed to love our enemies, surely God will have mercy upon those who try their best to live faithful, honest lives but don't have your theology or mine. Besides, we're not saved by theology, by our doctrines, but by God's grace.

Finally, none of us knows very much and live by faith not by knowledge. So let's not pretend our knowledge is superior to others.

Keep smiling.

ABSOLUTE FACTS WHICH EVEN ARABS KNOW
BUT DISPUTE DUE TO THEIR PROPAGANDA MODE;

1. THE LAND OF ISRAEL HAS ALWAY BEEN "FROM THE NILE TO THE EUPHRATES"! (legally, historically, Biblically, geology) Land stolen does not become part of the possessor!

2. THE TEMPLE MOUNT IS HOLIEST PLACE FOR JEWS WHERE THE FIRST AND SECOND TEMPLE STOOD, before ISLAM was created by MOHAMMAD! Mohammad never in his life or death entered JERUSALEM. JERUSALEM is not even mentioned in the KORAN. NOT EVEN ONCE. JERUSALEM is in the BIBLE over 700 times. And the BIBLE was created before MOHAMMAD created ISLAM.

3. NO ARABS IN ISRAEL. There are no JEWS or CHRISTIANS allowed to live in SAUDI ARABIA. MEDINNA, ISLAMS stated second holiest place was inhabited by JEWS before MOHAMMAD came and slaughter all of them because they would not convert!

4. ISRAEL IS OVER 3500 YEARS OLD AND ISRAELS CAPITAL JERUSALEM IS OVER 3000 YEARS OLD!

THESE ARE THE FACTS BUT THE LEFT AND JEW AND ISRAEL HATERS DO NOT WANTS FACTS THEY ONLY WANT PROPAGANDA! AND MOST PEOPLE FIND IT EASIER AS PART OF THEIR AGENDA TO PERPETUATE LIES AND PROPAGANDA THEN LEARN ANY FACTS. FACTS ARE EASY TO FIND ON THE INTERNET AND IN THE LIBRARY!------

Liberty writes:
"BMT
The Jews were given a defined piece of land in which to settle. However, Israel seems to believe that it is quite fine to settle (or "squat") on other countries' land and then attempt to grab it. Shock upon shock, it angers those whose land is being grabbed.

I support the existence of Israel; however, I do not support this policy of conquest or "land grabbing", then using AIPAC (Jewish lobby) to try to get Americsns to pay for said conquest, the Jewish-controlled media to tell us why we need to support their actions and finally, the anti-defamation league, etc. to try to label anyone, anti-semitic, who has the audacity to point out the facts."

lon
Yeah.

Similarly, I don't wish to argue with your mischaracterizations either, so I know how you feel.

Oy Vey, Still With the 'Caps Lock' Key
bmt:
"1. THE LAND OF ISRAEL HAS ALWAY BEEN "FROM THE NILE TO THE EUPHRATES"! (legally, historically, Biblically, geology) Land stolen does not become part of the possessor!"

Then I guess the jews need to give it back to the descendants of the people they drove out after their flight from Eqypt. (And we Americans have to give it all back to the Indians...)

bmt:
"2. THE TEMPLE MOUNT IS HOLIEST PLACE FOR JEWS WHERE THE FIRST AND SECOND TEMPLE STOOD, before ISLAM was created by MOHAMMAD! Mohammad never in his life or death entered JERUSALEM. JERUSALEM is not even mentioned in the KORAN." NOT EVEN ONCE. JERUSALEM is in the BIBLE over 700 times. And the BIBLE was created before MOHAMMAD created ISLAM."

I think the Islamic people's developed a kind of sentimental attachment to the place (Jerusalem) while they were dying defending it from the Crusaders (and eventually recapturing it). Kind of makes you feel a sort of affinity for a place, when your ancestor's blood is sunken into the walls.

bmt:
"3. NO ARABS IN ISRAEL. There are no JEWS or CHRISTIANS allowed to live in SAUDI ARABIA."

And as I'm sure your Momma has told you. "If all your friends are going to jump off the bridge, does that mean YOU SHOULD..."?

bmt:
"4. ISRAEL IS OVER 3500 YEARS OLD AND ISRAELS CAPITAL JERUSALEM IS OVER 3000 YEARS OLD"

(I'm waiting for a point, here...)

Bipsy Quee
The charge that I was mischaracterizing Prager's argument might sting if you gave some sense of what I said that was a mischaracterization. That he takes a group of people with strong beliefs and describes them as descending into nihilism is straightforwardly in the column. The main evidence given against Soros amounts to the fact that he is not a zionist. (And in particular in the fact that he himself has no interest in moving to Israel). But where does this idea come from that Soros, who put tremendous resources into helping Eastern Europe escape from and develop after the iron curtain should not similarly want Palestinians to live free of occupation. If there is an argument in there that goes beyond he is jewish and so should stand with the jews, I'll admit I am not seeing it.

Roy, wide is the path to destruction
there is only one truth and everything else then is a lie.

Jesus said I am the way the truth and the life, no one cometh to the father except through me.

I'm sorry, but for you to say that worshiping the Holy Word of God is a form of Idolatry is absolutly insane. Jesus is the word made flesh and worshiping him is what we are to do by staying in his word

Faith comes thru hearing and hearing by the word of God. Jesus said that my people parish thru lack of knowledge. What you have said is the opposite of the truth.

Satan would have us turn away from the word of God, you sir are worshiping Satan.

In loving my enemies I seek to bring them the knowledge of God's word

And again I ask you what was God's purpose at the tower of Babel.

lon
If you're sharp enough to recognize when someone is trying to sting you, you're probably sharp enough to know that reframing Prager's argument into your terms, so that you can more easily dismiss it, is intellectually dishonest.

I'm not interested in arguing about Mr. Soros. You like the man, that's your prerogative. But at least be honest enough to address your disagreement with the original column with the ideas expressed in the column instead of rewriting it.

George Soros
I heard that George Soros as a young European Jew joined the Nazis during WWII and worked against the Jews. He has just continued to work against his heritage and against his "adopted" country since then. If he lied on his immigration application maybe he could be deported. He owes so much to this country, but try to tell him that.

vespanat (Not "ethnic" enough)?
I thought also of the Blacks who criticize those of their colour who are Not Black Enough -- even the Obama Puppet is decried as being "a Oreo" because he is not descended from (or does not claim to be descended from) someone who was brought to America as a slave. When I was trying to adopt through the State of Georgia (don't even bother), I heard plenty of candid talk among the Black people at the intake meeting (I was the sole White person there) about the degree of desirability of children who are more or less "coloured" -- the "whiter" the child is, the more adoptable it is. I personally said nothing, just listened.

I have Jewish ancestry and most of them are no longer practicing Jews. But the most orthodox of my relatives are totally against the founding of Israel by the hand of Man; that, they maintain, is to be done by Messiah when he returns and anything else is doomed to fail. Daddy is not a practicing Jew, but he fought in Germany during World War II and he has a photo album to remind us that to some people you're a Jew even if you're not in your own mind a Jew. Just as OJ and Obama are still Black despite their desire to hang with the White people in hopes somebody might think they're White.

Why do people abandon Jewishness? For some I think it is just too much like work. Many nominal Catholics have abandoned the vast majority of their religous beliefs and practices. John Kerry and JFK spring to mind, as well as Rudy Giuliani and the members of the Mob who lived in the neighbourhood where I grew up.

Many others have given up the practice of Judaism but consider themselves, like Isaac Asimov, "Jewish enough."

I think the examples given abandoned Jewishness in an attempt to not be caught in the next pogrom. They personally are envious cowards.

Good Jew Bad Jew
Why not say good Jews and bad Jews? Are non-Jewish Jews always bad Jews? Are Jews who do not practice their faith bad Jews? What about the ones that convert? Are Non-Jewish Jews allowed to travel in Saudi Arabia or join the Klan? I'm having trouble with this? It may be nonsense.

George Soros and ...
George Soros is typical of the progressive/Communist Jew. He rejects his heritage and capitalism. But like the schizophrenic he is he benefits from capitalism. Put bluntly Soros is a self hating Jew in desperate need of intensive psychotherapy.
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