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Friday, March 23, 2007
Michael  Franc :: Townhall.com Columnist
Fighting a war with 535 generals
by Michael Franc
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Get ready for the invasion of the armchair generals. With 535 Capitol Hill generals struggling to define every aspect of when and how our troops in Iraq may be deployed, timetables for their withdrawal and specific requirements for how, when and against whom they may strike, the challenge of winning the war in Iraq is about to get a whole lot tougher.

Historically, micromanaging wars from afar squanders opportunities to defeat the enemy. Consider the well-reported episode late in 2001 when U.S. military leaders had top Taliban and al Qaeda terrorists in the crosshairs of an armed airborne drone, only to allow them to escape thanks to what the Washington Post described as "a cumbersome approval process." This process gave military leaders in Tampa, Fla., rather than on-site field commanders, authority to approve strikes against terrorist targets. Not surprisingly, this "bottleneck" benefited terrorists at least 10 times in one six-week period. "Imagine," one officer told the Post, "you have a target in sight [and] you have to wake up people in the middle of the night, and they say, 'Uhhhhhh.'"

Especially when those groggy-eyed decision makers are lawyers. "The Central Command's top lawyer," one Air Force official acknowledged, "repeatedly refused to permit strikes even when the targets were unambiguously military in nature." These lawyers nixed the attacks out of excessive caution, reasoning that noncombatants might suffer "collateral damage."

Congressional Ambiguity

Now, liberals in Congress have attached detailed conditions to the latest Iraq spending bill that, according to one senior White House official, may require the military "to increase the number of lawyers to scrutinize battlefield decisions by military commanders." Uhhhh, indeed.

Lawyers, by contrast, celebrate ambiguity, and there's no shortage of it in the House legislation. Even Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D.-Calif.) struggled to explain the specifics in a press conference:

Pelosi: "So we are saying unless there is progress made ... in meeting these benchmarks ... economic, political, etc., then by July of 2007, if progress is not demonstrated ... we begin the redeployment of our troops out of the combat role in Iraq.

"If by October—say, some progress is made in July—if by October, progress has not been complete, we begin the redeployment of our troops out of Iraq. And then the following year, if all the benchmarks are met, our troops are out no later than August 2008."

Question: "I am confused. . . . Is October still the crucial date? In other words, if they have not achieved the benchmarks by October, you begin the 180 days? Or does it begin in July?"

Pelosi: "If they haven't made any progress by July, we begin the 180 days. . . . And then if the President demonstrates that some progress has been made, but the progress is not sufficient by October, say some progress has been made, nothing happens, by October if the President cannot certify that these goals have been made, then the 180 days begin then."

Got that?

The confusion doesn't end there. Even once U.S. troops leave, section 1904 (f) of the bill allows an unspecified number of troops to remain under certain conditions. For example, they may protect U.S. diplomatic facilities, American citizens and members of our armed forces or engage in "targeted special actions limited in duration and scope to killing or capturing members of al Qaeda and other terrorist organizations with global reach."

Do we really want to condition the hot pursuit of terrorists on a lawyer's determination of whether the terrorists belong to a "terrorist organization with global reach" or are participants in a "civil war"? Would a proposed preemptive assault on a car-bomb facility be approved on the speculation that the bombs might someday be used against U.S. military or civilian personnel? Or would a lawyer reason that, because the bombs could theoretically be used for other purposes (such as suicide missions against Iraqi civilians unrelated to global terrorism), the assault couldn't go forward?

Remarkably, Democrats reject the notion that they are "micromanaging" the Commander-in-Chief's constitutional authority to make military decisions during wartime. Instead, they speak of the "collaborative process" and "shared responsibility" between Congress and the President to "redefine the mission" or enact a new "management plan" for Iraq.

For several reasons, the Founding Fathers concluded Congress shouldn't do this. As Supreme Court Justice Robert Jackson wrote, the Constitution empowers the President "to command and direct the armed forces in their immediate movements and operations."

For a Congress determined to end the war, the remedy is straightforward and simple: Cut funding to the troops. Try running that up the flag pole.

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About The Author

A long-time veteran of Washington policymaking, Mike Franc oversees Heritage's outreach to members of the U.S. House and Senate and their staffs.

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Thomas Jefferson
said when his friend Madison was in the White House in 1812 and about to go to war, and was facing opposition from a variety of corners that "A body of legislators containing 100 lawyers responsible for the general coordination of a war effort is impossible to imagine." How much more so 535 who are mostly lawyers. The executive is commander in chief for a reason. I felt the same when Clinton committed to Bosnia and Kosovo...You cannot allow Legislators power over foreign deployments. There is no way for it to be effective.

But...
wouldn't anything less be considered a dictatorship?

Thank God I retired
I can't imagine what it would be like now..

OK troops, it's the fourth Tuesday in the second odd month of an even year...we've made some progress in the first 162 days, lost some motion during the next 18 days, but have begun to make some more progress...

Now, does the 180 days begin today, or did it begin 18 days ago, or OH FCKIT, let's go home.

Saw it, heard it, want to share it
Don't know where it originated, but here you go.

From Anonymous

I see a lot of people yelling for peace but I have not heard of a plan for peace. So, here's one plan.

1) The US will apologize to the world for our interference in their affairs, past & present. You know, Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Tojo, Noriega, Milosevic, Hussein, and the rest of those good ole boys, we will never interfere again.

2) We will withdraw our troops from all over the world, starting with Germany, South Korea, the Middle East, and the Philippines. They don't want us there. We would station troops at our borders. No one allowed sneaking through holes in the fence.

3) All illegal aliens have 90 days to get their affairs together and leave. We'll give them a free trip home. After 90 days the remainder will be gathered up and deported immediately, regardless of whom or where they are. They're illegal!!! France will welcome them.

4) All future visitors will be thoroughly checked and limited to 90 days unless given a special permit!!!! No one from a terrorist nation will be allowed in. If you don't like it there, change it yourself and don't hide here. Asylum would never be available to anyone. We don't need any more cab drivers or 7-11 cashiers.

5) No foreign students over age 21. The older ones are the bombers. If they don't attend classes, they get a "D" and it's back home baby.

6) The US will make a strong effort to become self-sufficient energy wise. This will include developing nonpolluting sources of energy but will require a temporary drilling of oil in the Alaskan wilderness. The caribou will have to cope for a while.

7) Offer Saudi Arabia and other oil producing countries $10 a barrel for their oil. If they don't like it, we go someplace else. They can go somewhere else to sell their production. (About a week of the wells filling up the storage sites would be enough.)

8) If there is a famine or other natural catastrophe in the world, we will not interfere. They can pray to Allah or whomever, for seeds, rain, cement or whatever they need. Besides most of what we give them is stolen or given to the army. The people who need it most get very little, if anything.

9) Ship the UN Headquarters to an isolated island someplace. We don't need the spies and fair weather friends here. Besides, the building would make a good homeless shelter or lockup for illegal aliens.

10) All Americans must go to charm and beauty school. That way, no one can call us "Ugly Americans" any longer. The Language we speak is ENGLISH...learn it...or LEAVE...Now, isn't that a winner of a plan?

The Statue of Liberty is no longer saying "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses." She's got a baseball bat and she's yelling, "you want a piece of me?"

But...
Hi Ron. What part of "Cut funding to the troops" didn't you understand. Once Congress has authorized military force it is up to the President to direct and manage the use of that force. If Congress doesn't like it their only option is to cut the funding for the operations and demand that the troops be brought home. Simple.

Bill O'Rights
Are you running in '08? Please?

Bush already blew it.
"Historically, micromanaging wars from afar squanders opportunities to defeat the enemy." -- No Bushie should criticise anyone for squandering an opportunity in Iraq. Congress controls spending. If they feel taxpayer money is being ill spent in Iraq, they have every right to cut it off.

535 Helpers
535 helpers? Sounds to me as if GW Bush needs all the help he can get. Those who love to roll the phrase "Commander-in-Chief" on their tongues are starting to sound ridiculous.

libgman
But, that's not what the dims are doing, cutting the funding. Instead, they are bleeding it. If they had any guts, they would just stop the funding. But, they can't and look responsible at the same time.

535 arm chair generals indeed. Most of those idiots can't manage a Congress much less a war.

WHO IS THE ENEMY IN IRAQ?
ApolloSpeaks, what is your Plan for Peace?
Just forget the semantics, we are fighting in Iraq for our own survival. Did 9/11 and 30 years of related attacks not happen in Bizarro World? Maybe you're suicidal or possibly you don't care about the survival of the US? Or maybe you prefer we leave Iraq and then Nuke 'Em?
If you think, like the Slow Bleed Yellowbelly Democrats, that the right plan for the US is pulling out of Iraq and that will stop the WAR on the West, you are living in some bizarro world...wake-up and let's see the Bizarro plan.

Dems would do anything
to hurt thjs administration. They are the worst enemy this country has. Every word coming out Pelosi's and dirty Harry's mouth encourages the terrorists to "just hang in there" until the Dems get their way.

How ironic that those who proclaim to be for all this "choice" are setting the stage for us to have to choose only the color of the burka we wear.


Tell it like it is
Democrats are really saying: we are too gutless to actually cut the funding to stop the war, so we'll just tie our soldiers' hands behind their backs. That'll stop the war eventually. The bonus for us is that it will cause the President to 'lose' the war. But, we can be bought: we'll pass the funding if you approve all these pork projects we want.
I can respect someone who is against war. But there is NOTHING respectable about the way Democrats are going about anything right now.

Bill O'Rights
You have got that right,we should tell the rest of the world to Kss our *ss and do exactly what the Gov was thinking about just before Pearl Harbor.And letting anybody from the Congress run the war is a joke, we have been down this road before, letting the Government try to run a war "Vietnam" rings a bell and from a Vietnam vet we don't need this again it will just cost more lives,let the soldiers who train for war take care that, and keep the Congress who train to fck everything up out of it.

Vaquero
You said, "Did 9/11 and 30 years of related attacks not happen in Bizarro World? Maybe you're suicidal or possibly you don't care about the survival of the US?"

You forgot one little fact...Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. Details, details....

Dude
The Democrats had the chance to stop the funding of the war. They did not do it. All I have seen is a lot of huff and puff from them. They have done nothing of consequence to stop the war.

Even Bush
admits the 'surge'is a last ditch effort. If it hasn't succeeded by the end of the year we may as well bring the troops home.

If that happens, it won't be our troops who failed, it will have been the Iraqis themselves.

Lynne
What kinds of horrible things were being said on HuffPo about Tony Snow?

Hey Lynne
I'm OK. Except I was pretty angry last night because of these dimwits and their stupid bill. At least Bush is going to veto it, but meanwhile our soldiers don't get the funds they need. I detest these dims for bleeding our soldiers like this.

The constitution is explicit
Congress ain't got a say. They can bluster and blubber all they want much to the annoyance of the American people but in the end the Pres. can just veto the bill.
If it is just about wanking the American peoples chain(which I think it is)on the Dems part I want to remind them I have a wife for that.

Lynne
We must have been in the same field. I did that work too. My fondest memories :-0 were from the end users calling every 5 seconds, "are the servers up yet?"

I'm going to read that article now.

Bill O'Rights
That was Robin Williams...

and this will probably be a double post. I see TH has really been trying to fix things.

The constitution is explicit
Congress ain't got a say. They can bluster and blubber all they want much to the annoyance of the American people but in the end the Pres. can just veto the bill.
If it is just about wanking the American peoples chain(which I think it is)on the Dems part I want to remind them I have a wife for that.

Lynne
Yeah, that article pretty much said what I've already been aware of. The dims just want us to fail. It's all about wresting power away from the POTUS. I hope Bush fights them tooth and nail.

Last night on Hannity I saw one of the dims blaming Bush for wanting to veto this bill. He said it's Bush keeping the funds from the soldiers. What gall these liars have!

Since we started letting Politicians

Micromanage wars the score is 0 and 2 with another one in the 7th looking more and more like it will be 0 and 3.

Almost funny. We send a young man to a Service Academy where he spends 4 gruelling years learning the fundamentals of soldiering and leadership; then he spends 25-30 years learning how to prosecute war to a successful conclusion then we send him thousands of miles away to ply his trade then we allow POLITICIANS and some of whom have never heard so much as one shot fired in anger, we allow them to tell the general or admiral how to conduct the war and they do this without ever getting their lardasses out of DC.


Buck
That's a great post. But, you are using common sense, something they don't use in DC. They can't manage their own business and they want to manage a war. Idiots.

Peppermint
"Last night on Hannity I saw one of the dims blaming Bush for wanting to veto this bill. He said it's Bush keeping the funds from the soldiers. What gall these liars have!" That speaker was Jon Soltz a veteran of Kosavo and Iraq. To the best of my knowledge he is still a Captain in the Army Reserve. The truth is Bush has short changed both the military and veterans. The military did its mission the administration did not do theirs. Jon is not a liar. Perhaps you should listen when these people speak instead of shutting your mind?

Hal Donahue
I wasn't talking about the vet on there. I was speaking of the democrap congressman who was spouting off his lies.

Maybe you need to take reading lessons so you can actually read what people write. And, how about opening up your mind?

Lynne
Yeah that was the free for all on Hannity. I wish they would shut the mike off. Especially when Duncan Hunter was trying to defend himself with his documents, the others wouldn't let him speak.

Dude
I have no idea who that vet was on Hannity. He probably is a member of that vets against the war propaganda.
He was lying through his teeth though. All one has to do is go to Gunny's site to get the truth about what equipment the soldiers have in Iraq.
And, Duncan Hunter was trying to speak about his own son being there and being armored well, but they kept interrupting him.

Dude
You've got that right. Then we get the dims trying to place more ROE on our soldiers. They would need a lawyer standing next to them to make a move.

When my nephew was in Afghanistan he said his Marine unit was half afraid many times to make a move for fear they would end up in Leavenworth for fighting a war.

no matter what its brilliant politics
conservatives can scream all they want but the dems have maneuvered into an excellent spot for 08.

lets start with the surge which bush and the republicans say will work. if it does than democrats can now claim the pressure they put on bush and the iraqi leaders worked and changed the course of the war. i mean it gives the surge 18 months to be successful and if bagdad is actually pacified than it will be time to do what the british are doing in basra. redeploying and then withdrawing. if the surge works we wont need troops because that will be victory right.

if the surge doesn't work then they can say we stood up and tried to stop this madness.

if the bill is filibustered or vetoed we run the same scenario but it is even worse for republicans if the surge does not work because it will look as the dems were doing the right thing and the republicans just following bush blindly.


now to put all this in context, the american people wanted at the very least a change of direction and every poll i have seen says this war was not worth it and people want us out of there.

now my conservative friends you can argue with me on that last point but i ask you to personally poll your friends and relatives and see if they want some movement toward ending this thing or are fully supportive of an open ended war.

equipment readiness
i was listening to jerry doyle thursday night and he had a national guard sargent on who was outraged by the bill in congress but stated off hand that we can only win if the dod starts giving his unit what they need.
he had already been to iraq twice and said they had to armor their own vehicles still and had to take machine guns off dead iraqis to stay fully armed.
he was getting ready to go back but said his unit was having trouble getting the equipment they needed here to send over there.

the claim that duncan hunters son has all he needs is obvious. the pentagon doesn't want another pat tillman debacle and so you can be sure that a congressmans son is fully armed and protected.

We can survive a failed Iraq
Vaquero claims: "Just forget the semantics, we are fighting in Iraq for our own survival."
OK, Mr. Vaquero: PROVE IT.

Prove to us all, right here, why what happens in Iraq is going to affect our very survival.

Prove to us all, right here, why that's more important than the fate of Musharraf in Pakistan, for example.

Prove to us all, right here, why it's more important to fix Iraq than for Britain to fix "Londonistan" and clear all the Islamist seditionists out of their country, before they attempt another terrorist attack like last summer's attempted bombing of ten airliners.

We are fighting in Iraq because the neo-cons had this delusion that a democratic Iraq would be an antidote to terrorism. That was before we saw the "democratic" victories of HAMAS in Palestine, the "democratic" participation by Hezbollah in the "democratic" Lebanese government, and the way that a thousand (by MI-6 estimates) Islamist seditionists walk around "Londonistan" every day.

BUSH WAS WRONG.
Let me repeat that:
BUSH WAS WRONG.
And there is no longer any reason to continue this war, except to chase down al-Qaeda elements in Anbar province and elsewhere. There is no longer any reason to prop up the Maliki government. The theory that democracy there is going to help us here has FAILED.

Bush should NAME those responsible!
Libs let polls delude them into thinking those displeased with the way the war is going are all anti-war.
Many are displeased with the silly way it is being fought and ROE that slows America down.

Radical Islam is happy with their Democrat Allies though.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/printer-friendly.asp?ARTICLE_ID=53269

Bush should just keep his Veto pen going until he gets exactly the Military Budget he wants and should read a list of names on TV of those Legislators who collaborate with Radical Islam and hamper the war effort.
Make those who elected them see their mistake.

dude
i am not sure why you are offended.

pat tillman was killed by friendly fire and the army covered it up. in fact it was on my mind today because in the paper this morning there was an article about 6 officers being investigated for covering up the truth.

i was talking about a pr debacle.

if you really believe a congressmans son is not given special protection you are not being realistic.

Go Democrats!!!!
Finally they have started to show a little guts and tell this president that he is going to have to make real progress if he wants to continue this Iraq war and pass it off to his successor after 2008.

They know they cannot override a veto so Bush will get his billions for the war and can continue his surge. Its just that now Bush knows he has to succeed with it or he will face an even more uphill run the next time he comes back begging for another hundred billion or so for yet another strategy.

Republicans should stop whining about the troops. It is and has been all along the democrats who have stood up for the troops, the need to armor them properly and the need to train them properly before they go over to fight in another country's civil war. And its the democrats and the MSM who uncovered the administration's dirty little secrets about abandoning our wounded once they get out of acute care at Walter Reed and into the VA system.

And now its the democrats who are looking out for our soldier's interests and making sure that the Iraqi's hold up their end and get their own act together before our sons and daughters give their bodies and their lives for a new Iraq.

And many Townhall conservatives are inconsistent. They say the surge is working. Well thats great. If it does work, in part it will be because the Maliki government has been put on notice that they had better get behind it or America will start standing down from supporting their corrupt and incompetent government in a civil war. Even Bush and Rice have said they are using that to reinforce to the Iraqi's that this time they mean business - there is no open ended American commitment.

So conservatives can now thank me for helping you understand the benefits we are all beginning to reap from a Democratically controlled congress. If the surge works it will in part be because of the help the administration is getting from the democrats to make the Maliki government understand we are serious about them stepping up. If the surge doesn't work Bush is on notice that he will have to listen to the American people and their elected representatives before he squanders another 3000 lives and billions of dollars on propping up an Iranian leaning Shiite majority in Iraq.

I patiently await your applause!

MyOpine
Good idea about publishing the names of the leftists and also Bush should publish the pork each socialist got to vote the way RedNancy wanted them to by strong arming them.

That should get the public outraged to find out their precious dims/socialists are porking it up.

Lynne
Pelosi & Murtha are trying to please a small radical fringe group of Left Wing Loonies and it is going to backfire BIG TIME!

All Democrats are not Loonatic Lefties and most of the sane Democrats are real tight jawed about being made to look anti-American, treasonous enemy collaborators.
They don't like it any more than you would.

you don't seem to understand
the country wants us out of iraq.
most of the country has separated iraq from the war on terror.
your perspective is in the minority.

the taliban is making a comeback in afghanistan and we are in the middle of a civil war in iraq.americans and dems want to fight the war on terror not officiate between sunnis and shiites.

the majority of americans have sorted the problem out that way.

you may not agree but that is the way it has turned out.

Dude
We should just go ahead and let them burn Bush at the stake like they want also.

Let the socialists take over the government, then when we get hit with the nukes, most of the commies will be in DC and we won't have to put up with them any longer.

I'm so sick of hearing Bush lied, etc., I could puke my guts out. Actually, I can't wait until Bush's term is up so we don't have to hear it again.

Whoops. That was dumb. They'll continue to chant Bush lied until the universe is gone.

Lynne
When the socialists hear "death to America" they just liken it to "Bush lied". They know there is nothing to back up what they say so they just think everyone else makes empty chants.

Dude3344
Numbers are the problem.
These anti-war woosies have no idea what those numbers mean.
They have no idea how vulnerable our cities are.
Radical Islam does not need to nuke a city.
All they need to do is move a truck trailor with a big shaped charge over a city water supply line.
It would take days to fix it.
How many days would San Francisco or New York last without water or sanitation?
Think of how disease would quickly spread.
Those numbers won't mean a thing until they affect them directly.

Why is it so difficult
for the left to see what will happen if we pull out of Iraq? Can they not think beyond a day?


Dude
That's a funny post. I'm sure you can add global warming, the next hurricane, the next tornado, and, as of last night, I heard Al Sharpton trying to blame Bush for those British soldiers being held hostage by the Iranians.

Btw, has anyone heard today if anything has been further reported on that?

We can survive a failed Iraq
Vaquero claims: "Just forget the semantics, we are fighting in Iraq for our own survival."
OK, Mr. Vaquero: PROVE IT.

Prove to us all, right here, why what happens in Iraq is going to affect our very survival.

Prove to us all, right here, why that's more important than the fate of Musharraf in Pakistan, for example.

Prove to us all, right here, why it's more important to fix Iraq than for Britain to fix "Londonistan" and clear all the Islamist seditionists out of their country, before they attempt another terrorist attack like last summer's attempted bombing of ten airliners.

We are fighting in Iraq because the neo-cons had this delusion that a democratic Iraq would be an antidote to terrorism. That was before we saw the "democratic" victories of HAMAS in Palestine, the "democratic" participation by Hezbollah in the "democratic" Lebanese government, and the way that a thousand (by MI-6 estimates) Islamist seditionists walk around "Londonistan" every day.

BUSH WAS WRONG.
Let me repeat that:
BUSH WAS WRONG.
And there is no longer any reason to continue this war, except to chase down al-Qaeda elements in Anbar province and elsewhere. There is no longer any reason to prop up the Maliki government. The theory that democracy there is going to help us here has FAILED.

religiouslib
You were listening to a best of show. I listened to, but it is not current.

Dude3344
If the Brits go into Iran, they won't be alone!

This American Democrat Congress is what makes all our enemies so cocky. They know Democrats will stand still for any overt act of war or national insult.

Wonder if Ahmadinejad is aware that Bush can declare a Wartime State of Emergency, suspend ALL civil rights, tell Congress to go home and wait till the war is over and do whatever he wants to protect America?
Only the President who declared Martial Law can call an end to it!

irony
The irony of all this is if these idiot politicians had stood behind their vote, including Republicans, this war would be a whole lot closer to being a done deal. I have absolutely no use for politicians who tear men and women away from their families and disrupt their lives and then say "oops!" Don't give me that we were 'tricked' line of garbage either. If your easily tricked then you should not be in Congress. This has got to be the dumbest and most power hungry Congress we have ever had. Not to mention dangerous. I'm not advocating that this war was conducted perfectly, because it wasn't. Since their is no one who can claim perfection mistakes are gonna get made no matter what the situation is, war or otherwise. Correcting the mistakes is the key. I also can't help but wonder if Bush would have reacted a little sooner if everything wasn't so politicized. There seems to be a serious lack of objectivity. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Now we have become a nation of overreaction.

SteveL
Don't blame Vaquero or Bush because you cannot see the forest for the trees. You are stuck on stupid.

Lynne
I would say you were right about the Reps speaking up and being able to be heard but I am not so sure. The eleven Dims that voted against that supllemental bill did so because they want all funding jerked completely, including my Congresswoman Lynn Woolsey. She flatly stated it. Only in America can an idiot hippie welfare Mom get elected to Congress. Especially an idiot hippie welfare Mom aligned with idiot George McGovern!

Shrew
What are you doing here?
After calling all Americans cowards for not going to Iraq to fight Terrorists and your wishing terrorists would kill all American soldiers and My telling you you should go to Iraq and join the foreign terrorists, why are you still here?

Are you too cowardly to go to Iraq and put your life on the line trying to kill Americans?
You hate Americans and want to kill us.
Are you just all mouth and no guts?

Too many cooks spoil the broth.
Someone needs to tell the Dems. that it takes just one General to command a war and that too many cooks spoil the broth!


Visit: OsiSpeaks.com or OsiSpeaks.org

I do not like my own generation.
Has there ever been such a disgusting congress or is this typical?

As someone I know said, what is going on does not demonstrate that the American system is the best system. She said she preferred a parliamentary system where you can have a no confidence vote, get rid of the leader and get back to the business of solving problems, instead of this ongoing bickering, backbiting and backstabbing.

When I took politics as a course when I was in my 20's I had respect for congress, the leaders of the country, and my teacher shocked me by saying they were a bunch of sheep who would do anything to not stand for anything. Now that I am his age, I see his point. Other than Joe Lieberman, they are a pathetic bunch. Too bad Lieberman never took speech lessons to get over the impediment of his speaking voice. But at least we were saved from having Gore as president.

I wish they were having important hearings on tainted wheat from China, and the FBI's report about radical Muslims getting jobs driving school buses, and Ford Auto doing business in Syria, Iran and the Sudan, and our military giving defense contracts to countries that practice discrimination, and to the concept of drug and alcohol testing of congresspeople and disclosure about prescription drugs that might make them asleep at the job so to speak, and to whether we should be forming a new UN of united democracies.
If one day we wake up and find out that in 35 of 50 states school buses of children have been kidnapped and the children are being systematically executed and having their heads chopped off, similar to the school children being shot in the back in Russia, and school children in the Philippines being beheaded, and school children and teachers being executed in Thailand, what exactly is the plan of the US government? I mean other than telling us that Islam is a religion of peace and that CAIR is very upset because people are giving a fishy eyeball to Muslims, and how we have to apologize to whining Imams because they "feel offended".

But nooooooo. the democrats are after the real enemy...... George W and Carl Rove and Cheney.
Michael Savage says he is going to refer to the capital from now on as the decapital. He says if there is one thing the democrats are passionate about, it is retreat.

We should pass a law that if this country goes down, that our "leaders" will not be allowed to escape on their private jets or military jets, and not be allowed to run and hide in government bunkers.





















SteveL:
You ask Vaquero to "prove" that what happens in
Iraq will affect American national security. Do
you mind if I take a shot?

Decades of terror attacks were basically ignored
by one US administration after another. Encour-
aged by American inaction, global jihadists
escalated their assaults against our citizens
and interests, until finally, on 9/11, more
than 3000 of our fellow citizens were murdered
on our own soil.

It seems likely to the point of certainty that,
if we run away, tails tucked, from the ME now,
we'll be burying thousands more Americans in
the near future.

Not convinced? Then here's my challenge to you:
PROVE that I'm wrong; that no Americans will die
as a direct result of a retreat in the ME.

Given the stakes, I believe it is YOUR position
that requires "proof".

Lynne
Emails, phone calls, letters and I give her the misfortune of showing up at her speaking events. I can't STAND her! I hold her and all idiots like her responsible for my father being held as a POW in Nam. I will harass and haunt them the rest of their days for ALL of our vets! It's the least I can do. I have also been continually slamming the California Republican Party for not cultivating and putting up any real competition in this state. This state used to be RED and it will be again. Hopefully before we hit bankruptcy!LOL! P.S. I write other Congressmen and Senators too. It's the only way I can get any real meaningful representation. I also like to keep them abreast of what their opponents are up to. These guys always spout off in local forums and papers and think no one is listening.

AND...
And Congress should be having hearings on the criminalization of our military, our border guards, our police, and politicians. But they won't because, they are the cause.
It is amazing what one tainted man George Soros can accomplish with money just because he is miffed at not being able to buy the republican party. So what does he do? He buys the democratic party. He tilts the whole democratic party to the left. Why is he doing this? Because he plans to make millions selling marijuana cigarettes when the dems legalize it. He'll make as much money as the British did selling opium in China. So seeing what he can accomplish with money, is it no surprise what the Saudis can do, and the Dubai fortune holders? Too bad our "leaders" are so corrupt,and so willing to be turned into puppets for money. As it said, "they went to Washington to do good, and they did very well indeed."












Dude3344
RE: Shrew;
Will you please BE CAREFUL!
You are dealing with a British Islamic Radical just like the ones who want to blow up planes!

He is probably trying to lite his shoe and blow up TH right now.

Try to talk him into enlisting with the Terrorists in Iraq. They won't let him post comments from GITMO!

Shrew:
The Iranian military would fare no better facing
US troops than did the Iraqis. Only American
restraint in the face of severe provocation is
keeping that fact from being demonstrated now.

But stay tuned: US patience is long but not
infinite. The mad mullahs WILL be dealt with,
and it won't take long once it starts.

Hate America and her citizens all you wish;
we'll still be there to save you and the likes
of you from enslavement or death, just as we
have before.

Shrew:
The Iranian military would fare no better facing
US troops than did the Iraqis. Only American
restraint in the face of severe provocation is
keeping that fact from being demonstrated now.

But stay tuned: US patience is long but not
infinite. The mad mullahs WILL be dealt with,
and it won't take long once it starts.

Hate America and her citizens all you wish;
we'll still be there to save you and the likes
of you from enslavement or death, just as we
have before.

Lynne
Thanks! I agree with your comment about Zell Miller.

It is not our problem re the British sailors. But if it were, I sure hope we would respond like Reagan did with Libya with a rocket to the appropriate palace.


Lynne, I am right not arrogant...
I know you don't agree with the democrats that pushing Bush around and showing they have the ability to give him real grief now if he doesn't listen to them.

It is not my point to try to convince you that giving Bush a set of roadmaps for the Iraqis to meet if he wants to continue support Maliki.

The point is that they have that power and Bush and his administration now know they have to negotiate with Congress. Whether you and the knee-jerk conservatives that support whatever he does like it or not.

Further, if you stop and think about it, this is exactly the right thing for them to do. Some conservatives whine, "well if they had any real guts they would just pull the plug on war funding." It is true, they do have that drastic "nuclear" option. They cannot and will not use it now for at least two very good reasons:

1) The American people agree with or at least tolerate what the Democrats are doing now (that is why they were elected) but they don't agree with an immediate pull out. Probably a safe majority agree we should give the surge some time to work. But that time needs to be spelled out and the deadline has to be real or the Iraqi government will just ignore it. For 4 years now all they have learned is that they have Bush wrapped around their little fingers.

2) There is no majority among Democrats that an immediate pull out is the right thing to do and they have no plan for containing the civil war they are certain will continue after the troops leave. They are well aware that Bush is commander in chief and Congress alone has no ability or authority to execute a containment plan even if they could agree on one.

So in that very real context, what they are doing is their best alternative and exactly right from their point of view, from my point of view, and, I assert, from the point of view of a majority of the American people.

You are among the minority of people who still think Bush is a good president and has done a great job as commander in chief on the Iraq war. I am trying to help you understand that the democrats and people like me who see reality rather than the fantasy Bush has mesmerized you with are carefully and skillfully starting to get this country back on the right path. True patriots like us understand the enormous consequences of the blunders this administration has committed in this war that will take a generation to clean up. The real clean up will start after the 2008 election when we have a democrat in the white house.

Lynne, I am right not arrogant...
I know you don't agree with the democrats that pushing Bush around and showing they have the ability to give him real grief now if he doesn't listen to them.

It is not my point to try to convince you to support giving Bush a set of roadmaps for the Iraqis to meet if he wants to continue support Maliki.

The point is that the democrats have that power and Bush and his administration now know they have to negotiate with Congress. They can't just ram through whatever they want without consulting congress. Whether you and the knee-jerk conservatives that support whatever he does like it or not.

Further, if you stop and think about it, this is exactly the right thing for them to do. Some conservatives whine, "well if they had any real guts they would just pull the plug on war funding." It is true, they do have that drastic "nuclear" option. They cannot and will not use it now for at least two very good reasons:

1) The American people agree with or at least tolerate what the Democrats are doing now (that is why they were elected) but they don't agree with an immediate pull out. Probably a safe majority agree we should give the surge some time to work. But that time needs to be spelled out and the deadline has to be real or the Iraqi government will just ignore it. For 4 years now all they have learned is that they have Bush wrapped around their little fingers.

2) There is no majority among Democrats that an immediate pull out is the right thing to do and they have no plan for containing the civil war they are certain will continue after the troops leave. They are well aware that Bush is commander in chief and Congress alone has no ability or authority to execute a containment plan even if they could agree on one.

So in that very real context, what they are doing is their best alternative and exactly right from their point of view, from my point of view, and, I assert, from the point of view of a majority of the American people.

You are among the minority of people who still think Bush is a good president and has done a great job as commander in chief on the Iraq war. I am trying to help you understand that the democrats and people like me who see reality rather than the fantasy Bush has mesmerized you with are carefully and skillfully starting to get this country back on the right path. True patriots like us understand the enormous consequences of the blunders this administration has committed in this war that will take a generation to clean up. The real clean up will start after the 2008 election when we have a democrat in the white house.

Sorry about the double post...
Something's wrong with Townhall software. It looked like the first post hung then went to a dead link. So I went to the trouble of doing the post again. I don't know if they know they have this problem but the TH web master needs to fix this.

SteveL and Shrew
Steve: Bush was NOT wrong to invade Iraq. He was simply upholding a treaty that had been signed by both nations. The 1991 ceasefire treaty laid out specific terms that Saddam's government had to abide by. If/when he broke those terms, the nations of the Desert Storm Coalition were OBLIGED under international law to return and remove Saddam's government from power. Saddam broke those terms numerous times during the first Hillary! administration, but the only actions taken against him were the dropping of a few bombs on anti-aircraft sites and a Tomahawk into an intelligence agency building to kill the janitorial staff (all done to remove Bill's scandals from the front page).

Shrew: If we had to fight Iran, it would be a much different kind of conflict than the fight for Iraq. It would be primarily a Navy and Air Force fight, and the Iranians would see their armed forces reduced by 60% or more very quickly. There probably wouldn't be any invasion for quite a while. The hope would be that the Iranian people would finally develop cojones and remove the Mad Mullahs from power. Whatever the result of that struggle, we'd have no real problems with the Iranian military.

Slacker __ (Site under construction now)
You Liberals caused bush to be elected when you failed to run a viable alternative.
Quit whimpering about Bush, he is a self inflicted injury!

Get busy and find a viable candidate before you get McCain inflicted upon us!

slacker:
Which Democrat do you suppose is suited to
"clean up" Iraq and rest of the ME? I have yet
to hear any of the party's WH candidates
propose anything other than to run away from
the problem - a policy, I would suggest to you,
that will certainly cost thousands of American
lives.

If any of them have any ideas about how this
country should respond to decades of terror,
I (and many others) would love to hear them.
Ignoring the danger, a la Clinton, is NOT an
option.

Crawfish, Bush WAS wrong
Of course he had the ABILITY to invade Iraq and the SUPPORT of congress and the American people. And, yes, he could use the argument you stated as justification.

But he was WRONG to invade it with a risky plan that had little chance of success. He led Rumsfeld and Franks to put together a plan that would quickly remove Saddam and take Baghdad but had NO PLAN whatsoever for how to hold and secure the country after that. I and most Americans judge him harshly for that. History will also.

OBVIOUS THINGS BUSH SHOULD HAVE UNDERSTOOD BEFORE STARTING THIS WAR:

1) If the war you are fighting is to replace an enemy "regime" with one that is friendly to you, and them leave, you must know and trust who you are going to replace them with. You NEVER leave it to the defeated country to choose the regime that will immediately replace the one you defeated.

2) Expect to be an occupier for a considerable period of time before you can risk elections and be reasonably sure of what the results of those elections will be.

3) In order to occupy a country, you must guarantee a super majority of the population that their life will be more secure, stable, and profitable for THEM, not just you, if they accept the regime that you replace your enemy with. They must believe this and see immediate evidence that this is true. At the same time, they must have hope that they will gain their country back and you will leave eventually if they cooperate with you.

4) It is important to know the difference between the battles you can win and the battles you may probably lose. If you choose to fight a battle, it must do more to advance your cause than other battles you do not choose to fight.

5) You must understand the enemy and which battles help or hurt their cause. Sometimes fighting a battle helps their overall cause even if they lose. It is not to your advantage to fight those battles. Find another battle that does not help them.

When Bush admits that "mistakes have been made" I look at it this way. He has not followed these principals. The very predictable outcome of that failure is chaos and loss. That is what has occurred in Bush's "War in Iraq".

Lynne
I blame the cart before the horse approach to war of this administration. They try to make friends with the population before subduing them. In a war first you have to subdue and then you make friends. Read the news about Marines ordered out of Afghanistan. This is an impossible war for our troops to fight when the terrorists and insurgents hide among civilians and if an American soldier shoots back he has charges against him against which he and his family have to bankrupt themselves to pay the lawyers to defend him/herself. (The same can be said of Israel.) After world war II the US was in Japan for awhile and imposing certain behavior before they let the Japanese vote. In Germany they killed Naziis. In this no kill war, our soldiers are sitting ducks. The terrorists just move to another area until the army moves on. Bush promised to change policy regarding the troops. He didn't. He gave the vote immediately to the Iraquis and they voted in a non secular government and they are adopting anti-Israel policies. The Bush administration should have hired someone like Victor Davis Hanson who was a military historian before he dove in.
Now it is a mess. The republicans did not know their history. They didn't know Middle East history. If the Bush administration did not want to fight a war they shouldn't have started one. Yes I realize the press is a problem. It was a problem in the Vietnam era. It is a real problem now. I guess the military thought they had solved the media problem but they didn't.
Did you see that Hezbollah offered to rebuild houses of Lebanese after this summer? They rebuilt them with armaments right in the middle of the house that even the occupants did not know about, blocked off by walls, so that in the next war they can fire on Israelis from houses and when the Israelis fire back they can whine about civilian houses being hit. Someone took off the roof of the house and photographed the floor plan. We ( Americans, Israelis, and Europeans) care about civilian casualties so the enemy is using that against us.















Lynne, that's a thin reed
you are holding on to. You say

"we are a REPUBLIC. IT doesn't matter what the majority wants. The Pres. has the power to handle this WOT, and that's what he'll do... "

It DOES matter. Being a republic does not mean we elect a dictator every 4 years. It means we don't have direct democracy and we elect people to represent us. The elected representatives in congress do have a great deal of power, as Bush is starting to find out, on the topic of foreign policy and war. He already learned that with respect to his domestic plans for privatizing social security, immigration policy changes, etc.

Every time there is an election it greatly matters what the majority wants. As the democrats found out in 2000 and 2004. As the republicans in congress found out in 2006.

And yes, I do have strong opinions. But they are grounded in fact and research, not echoes of other people who I listen to only because they say what I want to hear. I have a track record of being right -- most of the time.

will:
I can only speak for myself. I'm not a Christian,
evangelic or otherwise. I don't march in lockstep
with anybody, and tend to distrust those in
"authority".

However, I AM a patriot (with 20/20 vision,
thanks) who will not sit still and watch as
my fellow citizens are being murdered. Bush has
made mistakes and will make more, as any C-in-C
in time of war would. That doesn't nean the US
should simply hunker down and wait for the next
attack (and the next, and the next...) before
facing the very real dangers posed by the
global jihadists.

Dissent is fine by me. But dissenters should
have a viable alternative, not simply shriek
that the man with the job isn't doing it right.


The Shrew
When are you going to Iraq to join the "Insurgeants"?
I hope you are not planning to strap on an explosive vest and blow up a school bus.

You kept calling Americans "coward" on your last visit.

I call you COWARD now!
Do as you preach!
Go to Iraq and fight!
What's holding you back?

Shrew:
Keep on cheerleading for the enemies of the West.
I'm sure you were one of those who felt that the
US would struggle to utterly crush the laughable
Iraqi "military". How did that work out for you?
And what on earth would make you think it might
be different for Iran? I think your hatred for
America is making you engage in wishful thinking.

Before you rush to point with pride at "Iraqi
guerillas", two points:
1)They are not for the most part Iraqis, but
international jihadists;
2)Their favorite tactic is to murder REAL
Iraqis, especially women and children. No
time to fight real soldiers.

The Shrew
I remember you challenging everyone who is not a Veteran and demanding that they sign up for Iraq.
I remember you wishing our soldiers would all be killed.
I remember you calling Americans coward.

YOU ARE A COWARD!
Why don't you go fight in Iraq?
Fear holding you back?
You want American soldiers dead don't you?
Go kill some yourself, if you are not too YELLOW!

Shrew
Have you committed yourself to always siding with the enemy? There are 2 points of view. The Iranian one says it was their waters. The American British Iraqui one says it was Iraqui waters. If you feel so "at one" with the Iranians why don't you move there? Instead of feeling encroached upon by Americans you could enjoy shariah law.




Shrew
I remember your insults quite clearly.
I remember you asking me if I had served.
When I told you I am a WW2 Vet I neglected to add that I also served during the "China Campaing" and our ship was twice rewarded by the Queen with a beer party & twice by Standard Oil of Great Britain also, so I also probably gave more service to the Crown than you have.
Are you a Veteran?
Or just a coward who calls strangers coward?

slacker

You have THE most convoluted reasoning powers of anyone on this post.

Why you continue to embarrass yourself is beyond belief.

Thank you. We're all refreshed and challenged by your unique point of view.

shrew
Our "Service to the Queen" once saved the lives of about 82,000 British subjects. I guess you could call them "People".
You idea of serving the people is to condemn them to eternal servitude to a failed system of Government that has been tried many times and failed, can't possibly work for humans because it defies human nature.

People are not like ants or bees.
There is always the slacker who shirks his share of work.
There is always the greedy who want more than their share.
There will always be the power mad who want authority to manage other peoples lives and refuse to accept responsibility for their failure.
There will always be conflict and those like you who feel it is someone elses job to protect society from evil tyrants.

Shrew:
So Americans are mass murderers, are they?

The Islamic fascists you glorify DELIBERATELY
TARGET civilians. US-inflicted civilian casual-
ties are in every case accidental, and mostly
due to the jihadists' proclivity for HIDING
BEHIND CIVILIANS.

BTW - you're a Catholic? Enjoy expressing your
opinion publicly? Like the freedom to pick
either side in a military conflict?
THANK AN AMERICAN!

Shrew
Your effort to cite one isolated incident of an American soldier doing something wrong as typical of the conduct of American soldiers makes you a LIAR!
Would you slander ALL British Communists because ONE is a criminal?

As to DEFENDING America from a terrorist sponsoring nation, It is this PC way or the old Dresden or Hiroshima way.
I prefer the old way myself.
Why should we waste thousands of American lives to save the lives of women & children so our enemy can run and cower behind them for human shields.
Radical Muslims deliberately TARGET American civilians.

Shrew
Your effort to cite one isolated incident of an American soldier doing something wrong as typical of the conduct of American soldiers makes you a LIAR!
Would you slander ALL British Communists because ONE is a criminal?

As to DEFENDING America from a terrorist sponsoring nation, It is this PC way or the old Dresden or Hiroshima way.
I prefer the old way myself.
Why should we waste thousands of American lives to save the lives of women & children so our enemy can run and cower behind them for human shields.
Radical Muslims deliberately TARGET American civilians.

The Shrew
AGAIN;
With your question you insinuate a LIE!
You know full well that Saddam deprived his own people for political pity from NAIVE people who were unaware of his "Oil For Food Scam".
YOU ARE AWARE OF THE SCAM!
You insinuate a LIE!

Slaughtering innocent civilians?
You must be a child.
Civilians were deliberately TARGETED during WW2.
The firestorms in Dresden were so intense they killed civilians in Air Raid Shelters by pulling the air out of their lungs.

I am giving up on this. It is too hard to post!
This is hard for me to tell you Shrew;
WAR IS NOT NICE!

Shrew

You do not know facts. You make them up as you need them to support your point of view. Perhaps people in your circle all nod their head in affirmation and that is what you are used to, yup yup yup yup yup yup.
You probably call Bush a liar and that is projection.
Try looking up the stats on deaths of Black Christians by Muslims in the Sudan. Try looking up the stats on the deaths of Iranians and of Iraquis when they were fighting each other.




Lynne
Thanks for the support and for the background knowledge on the posters.

Lynne
Yes I remember the Shrew.
A brit Communist who wanted our troops to be killed and kept calling everyone who had not been in the military a coward and insisting they sign up to go to Iraq.
And I got so distracted I just had to go back to see what this thread is about.
Good article.

Lynne
Yes I remember the Shrew.
A brit Communist who wanted our troops to be killed and kept calling everyone who had not been in the military a coward and insisting they sign up to go to Iraq.
And I got so distracted I just had to go back to see what this thread is about.
Good article.
____________________________________
Bytheocean
I watched a documentary on the Iran/Iraq war.
Iran used groups of little boys armed mostly with sticks to swarm Iraqi postitions and force them to use up their munitions shooting children.
The Iraqi troops would retreat as ammo ran low.
Can you immagine what MSM would say about our troops firing into swarms of children in self defense?

Lynne
Yes I remember the Shrew.
A brit Communist who wanted our troops to be killed and kept calling everyone who had not been in the military a coward and insisting they sign up to go to Iraq.
And I got so distracted I just had to go back to see what this thread is about.
Good article.
____________________________________
Bytheocean
I watched a documentary on the Iran/Iraq war.
Iran used groups of little boys armed mostly with sticks to swarm Iraqi postitions and force them to use up their munitions shooting children.
The Iraqi troops would retreat as ammo ran low.
Can you immagine what MSM would say about our troops firing into swarms of children in self defense?

MyOpine
Iran also used children, 15 year olds, to walk through mine fields with mines buried there by Saddam, to set off the land mines.
The terrorists act this week of using children to get past a checkpoint and then the adults getting out of the automobile and setting off the bomb blowing up the children. Take that shrew.


Shrew:
Yes, I would sign up to fight an occupying army
in my country. That doesn't make me the moral
equivalent of a jihadist because:
a)I haven't spent the last few decades killing
citizens of that hypothetical power;
b)If my efforts were successful in driving out
that army, I wouldn't be following them back
home to murder more; and
c)There's no ideology pushing me to force every
person into the same mold.

And let's not forget d)I wouldn't be DELIBERATELY
MURDERING thousands of my own countrymen in order
to get on my enemy's TV cameras.

Lynne:
I suppose it's useless, but I'm not gonna let
Shrew get away with slamming my country or our
troops. Or suggesting that the contemptible
Islamomurderers are the moral equivalent of
the Minutemen.

Guess he/she just pushes my buttons!

bullgod
Maybe Shrew is someone who is playing at having an identity that pushes buttons. Why would someone call him/herself Shrew after all which is an insulting term? "A woman with a violent, scolding, or nagging temperament; a scold."


Lynne, you are the pot calling...
... the kettle black.

You say "Just remember $26 Billion in earmarks to dums to buy their votes..."

I remember a few spending bills that came out of the republican congress last year that had a little "pork" in them. You have probably already forgotten the highway bill? As I remember it, a 286.4 billion transportation bill lined with cash for some 6,000 pet projects to get congress to hold its collective nose so Bush could sign it in a grand ceremony with plenty of press coverage in the run up to the campaign.

I won't debate the concept of a "republic" with as I don't think we are that far apart from agreeing on the definition. I did NOT say Bush was a dictator. Nor did I say he did anything illegal when he invaded Iraq. So, since we agree on these things, I think your fixation on the point that he can use the power vested in his office to do unpopular things is a red herring.

What I do claim is that the president is subject to the rule of law in this country, and there are indeed constitutional limits on his power. These constitutional limits are more restrictive when he is confronted by a majority, however slim, of the oppposite party in congress. That is what is happening now in the last 2 years of his term. I confidently predict it will get worse for him not better.

You disagree with me on that and think that the democrats have "gone too far". Fine. I do agree with you that they could go too far, but they have gone no where near too far yet.

An example of what I think would be going "too far" is cutting off funding for the war in Iraq without any coherent plan for how and where to withdraw the troops, what the new mission of the troops would be, how the new deployment would contain the chaos that would certainly happen to Iraq, etc.

Any attempt to accomplish those things in order to cut off funding by congress would be interpreted as usurping executive branch powers by the majority of Americans. Even I would feel that way. So that leaves them with only the power to cut of funding without any control over the side effects.

That of course is what conservatives are egging the democrats on to do. If they are stupid enough to do that they are finished. End of story. I do not think Pelosi, Shumer, Reid, Clinton, Obama, Biden, and other democratic leaders are that stupid. If they are I will publicly state I will never vote for or publicly support anything any of them ever do again.

Instead of committing political suicide as you conservatives would like them to do, they are threading a more nuanced and complicated path that will accomplish far more to bring this administration to a sane policy for his last two lame duck years. If they are careful not to take the poisened bait offered by republican strategists they will go into the 2008 campaign with a reasonable advantage in public opinion.

If they succeed the republicans will have a hard time overcoming that advantage, assuming any of the current front runners are still leading the race for their nomination. Giuliani, McCain, Brownback, Romeny all have real problems and none of them are shoo-ins against a Clinton or Obama.

This is all prediction and opinion. However, lets revisit this in a year. Then we will see where we are.

Sonny, its not convoluted reasoning...
Its analysis based on facts, not opinion.

Its glib and fatuous for you to simply say "You have THE most convoluted reasoning powers of anyone on this post."

If you think I am wrong try like others like Lynne, myopine, gunnyg have on this thread and others to show me that. They usually fail, though occasionally I have changed my opinion. It just takes more than name calling to make sense though.

The reason you think my reasoning is convoluted may be that you see I am right, don't want to admit that, and feel frustrated.

Unfortunately frustration is going to be a feeling that conservatives are going to have to get used to. Certainly for the next 2 years. Probably for the next 6 to 10 years.

slacker:
Are congressional Democrats "threading a more
nuanced, complicated course"? Or engaging in
political posturing designed to hamper the
war effort, while avoiding any real action
that would please their antiwar "base" but
cost them the support of reasonble people
like yourself who acknowledge the danger of
simply "bailing out" in the ME?

If they succeed in their efforts to discredit
Bush without ever publicly presenting altern-
ative policies, and hold the WH and congress
after 08, what will restrain them from simply
leaving the job undone? Nothing I'm hearing
from Dem candidates suggests that that won't
happen.

Maybe you just don't like Bush and/or Repub-
licans, but be careful what you wish for.

Bullgod, democrats must present policy .
... to be elected.

They don't have to do much at this point to "discredit" Bush, at least in most people's eyes. I know many conservatives like to blame that all on the MSM, but I won't buy that. The MSM hated Reagan as much or more than Bush, but they never "discredited" him. Their frustration with that is why they called Reagan the "teflon president."

Bush is sitting at less than 30 or 35 percent popularity through his own fault, not because of the democrats or the MSM. I believe if the Iraq war had gone well and it was a democratic and stable "beacon of hope" to the Muslim world, Bush would be extremely popular today not just in America but in the rest of the world as well.

There are a few democrats who have stated fairly clearly what they would propose as a policy for Iraq. Joe Biden for one argued for long ago that insufficient troops were being sent into Iraq. He is quoted in General Trainor's book "Cobra II" as saying this before the invasion when he was briefed on what Rumsfeld and Franks had put together. He was on the talking head sunday shows numerous times after the invasion arguing strongly for more troops and predicting exactly the kind of problems we have now if more were not sent in. Ironically, last year he decided that Bush and Rumsfeld had let the situation deteriorate to the point where additional troops would be too little too late. Then he put forward a new suggestion, with reasonable detail, for "federalizing" the country. You can read it at:

http://www.planforiraq.com

I don't agree with all thats in there but it is a serious alternative proposal and not just a truckload of "Bush bashing". I am sure 90% of the folks that post on TH will have a kneejerk hate reaction to this plan. However, there is actually some behind the scenes bi-partisan support for it.

If the "surge" doesn't work Biden's federalization proposal may turn out to be the most likely next alternative the administration will fall back on. This isn't as impossible as you might think. For 3 years Bush and Rumsfeld bashed Biden's proposal and said there was no need for additional troops in Iraq. Yet as you know they finally agreed Biden was right all along early this year. This was too late in Biden's opinion to contain the insurgency which Bush had now let become too firmly established.

While Biden has been right about this all along, we hope he is wrong this time and the surge will work. My point here is not necessarily that Biden is 100% right this time. I am just saying it is a republican myth that the democrats have never made a serious alternative proposal. Congress can only propose however. As I said before, they have no good options if the executive branch refuses to listen.

slacker:
I regard Biden and other Dems' earlier calls
for more troops as an example of political
posturing, since they reversed themselves
immediately upon Bush's announcement of the
"surge". (BTW, I think 130,000 US troops
could accomplish ANYTHING that needs doing
in the region; the problem lies not in a
shortage of soldiers, but a shortage of ser-iousness about aggressively fighting the war)

I heard of Biden's federalization plan and
actually like it, since it would give the
Kurds a fighting chance in the region if the
Dems, as I fear, take power and abandon the
ME. Wouldn't mind seeing a wholly independent
Kurdistan, in fact (the Turks would soil
themselves, no?).

But it really doesn't seem that Biden's
fellow party members take his proposal ser-
iously, preferring to take the "troops out
now" course. In this, they are driven by
their strident left wing base.

Fact is, while it may be legit to question
Bush and the Repubs on "competence", at least
you know they will fight. The Dems? I have
severe misgivings.
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