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Wednesday, April 18, 2007
Megan Basham :: Townhall.com Columnist
Feminism’s ‘extreme’ solution to the opt-out revolution
by Megan Basham
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Since the New York Times lit the fuse on the opt-out debate in 2003—reporting that a growing number of married, professional women are permanently or temporarily opting out of full-time jobs—feminist reaction has ranged from denial to condemnation to the predictable call for more government-funded daycare. None of this has done anything to curb the trend of mothers taking the exit ramp off the career track.

Mirroring the results of more scientific studies, Oprah Winfrey’s recent online poll found that 66 percent of working mothers wish they were stay-at-home moms. Careerbuilder.com’s 2006 survey revealed that fifty-two percent would take a pay cut to spend more time with their children, suggesting women aren’t interested in logging more hours at the office no matter who’s footing the babysitting bill.

So it should come as no surprise to anyone that a forthcoming Bureau of Labor Statistics report is expected to confirm that not only is the opt-out phenomenon occurring, it is wider and more pronounced than previously guessed.

Few feminist commentators have been willing to confront this reality, but some who have are sounding a new alarm as creative as it is ambitious. The problem now, they claim, isn’t that women don’t have equal opportunities or adequate child care options, it is that prestigious jobs are too extreme, requiring more from women than they’re inclined to give. And this, they protest, isn’t fair.

The “extreme work model”—high level, high paying employment that requires 60 or more hours a week— is unjust to women, “[forcing them] out of these very good jobs much more readily than men,” says Sylvia Ann Hewlett, author of a study on extreme jobs for the Center for Work/Life Policy. Of course, in Hewlett’s use, “force” does not mean that companies are irrationally firing top female employees, but rather that women either won’t accept these positions or quit once they have them.

Only 20 percent of extreme professionals are women, and of those 80 percent report that they have no desire to work that hard for more than a year. In contrast, only about half of extreme male workers report the same. “For women there's a flight risk. But men get burned out and are able to stick with it,” Carolyn Buck Luce, Hewlett’s co-author told Forbes in February.

While some might conclude such divisions are the natural by-product of an economic system that allows workers a choice in how demanding a job they will accept, feminists see in it the specter of oppression. Their mantra, as newspapers across the country trumpet it, is that while women may choose to work fewer hours or take a professional breather now and then, they don’t, as the Columbia Journalism Review’s E.J. Graff complained, “…choose the bias or earnings loss that they face if they work part-time or when they go back full time.”

There is something petulant in these objections as they resent a woman experiencing any effect on paycheck or prestige no matter how many fewer hours she works or how much time she takes off. Surely even the most ardent feminists would concede that a man who made similar choices would face similar penalties.

Yet rather than confront the reality that life requires choices—that just as one cannot be an astronaut and a baseball player, one cannot be a 60- to 80-hour-a-week executive and a fully available mom—these forward feminist thinkers argue for changing the requirements of achievement. If a woman cannot find a position that fits her exact number of desired hours while also meeting her expected level of status and compensation, then everyone else must be made to work less. Or at least they must be made to think there is something wrong with working more.

Despite the fact that the majority of workers classified as extreme say they love their jobs and that their hours are self-inflicted, women’s advocacy groups insist the system needs to be adjusted. "There is a sense that you almost have to protect workers against their own desire to self-destruct on these jobs," Hewlett told the Baltimore Sun last December. Hewlett and Luce’s proposed mode of protection—nothing short of “a radical redesign of the high-echelon work model.”

Clearly the idea that workers need to be protected from their own drive to succeed so that the less dedicated have an equal chance to occupy the corner office sounds antithetical to free market ideals. Not so, say feminist organizations who claim that reforms like flextime and more paid leave are necessary if women are to compete for the best positions. But if Hewlett, Luce, and Graff are a bit squeamish about acknowledging the ideological source of their suggestions, some of their more transparent sisters aren’t.

In an essay published March 14 at The New Republic, feminist professor and author, Linda Hirshman comes close to arguing its time to scrap the great experiment altogether in the name of gender equality.

Calling the corporate world “exploitative” to women, Hirshman says its time to reconsider whether Marx was on to something. “[Women] have to work much longer hours than they like; longer than they think anyone should have to work,” she writes. Rather than seeing this as justifiable reason for some to draw back from the workplace, Hirshman believes the U.S. needs to adopt a more socialist model.

“Relentless pressure to achieve huge profits, growing inequality…and the penetration of market values into all aspects of life--the story dovetails perfectly with the classic Marxist description of the unavoidable consequences of capitalism,” writes Hirshman. In other words, if women don’t want to compete for first string positions on a level playing field, we need to create a field that allows them to score the same number of points while spending less time in the game.

But what if it’s a game women don’t want to play? No one watching a busy mom juggle the demands of her husband, children, and—sometimes—her job would suggest women are less willing to work hard than men. They simply have different ideas about what is worth their effort. Perhaps the increasing numbers of women deciding to dedicate more time to motherhood should be taken as an embrace of the extreme career rather than a repudiation of it. With a job description that routinely calls for 100 hours a week or more, constant availability to unpredictable clients, and immediate adaptability to an ever-evolving environment, they may very well be the most extreme of all extreme workers.

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About The Author

Megan Basham is the author of Beside Every Successful Man: A Woman's Guide To Having It All

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Romney versus Brownback
Senator Brownback and Romney are both vying for Christian support from the Republicans. On the surface Brownback may appear to be the logical choice exemplifying Christian values.

Brownback continually bombards the hearts and minds of his supporters with pro life and pro marriage anecdotes.
However the amateur Brownback camp continually criticizes Romney for allowing gay marriages in Massachusetts but the truth reveals that was in reality mandated by the courts.

Brownback may not be as Christian conservative as he may appear.

The gullible Brownback fell for the smear campaign of some radical left leaning women's groups who manipulated Brownback with shocking lies and hysterical anecdotes in order to get him to sponsor the draconian International Marriage Relations Act.

Brownback sponsored this unconstitutional law with the ultra liberal Senator Cantwell (D-WA) which allows the government to interfere with the universal right of an American to COMMUNICATE with a foreigner and also shockingly requires background checks before they can marry within the USA.

Remember it was Senator Brownback (not Mitt Romney) who took an oath to defend the Constitution of the United States and then broke his promise by sponsoring this draconian law.

The truth appears to reveal that Romney exemplifies Christian values more than Brownback.



Pseudo-Religions Need Consistency Too.
viruddh/Lemonade (presumably the same person).

Latest post she writes:-
"Since your post was addressed to me, I would like
you to tell me just exactly what you know about
me from what I posted - not what you THINK I am".

Previous post:-
"Anyone who has read Dworkin knows that she was
not born hating men. She suffered severe abuse
at the hands of her husband. Others were raped
by fathers or strangers. Some people learn to
deal with their anger (like my sister, though
she still suffers from bouts of severe depression
after 30 years), others do not......"

I feel that I must add to this, well..

...nothing.

Except to say that I will not be making any further postings on this ageing thread of dwindling interest. I have kept it in on hand, well past its sell by date. For most of the feminist respondants here it is clear that time will have to catch up with you before the veil of distorted morality which you have thrown over the world, in which you think you live in, is removed. With all forms of deluded faith, that has sadly always been the case.

Words, to people such as yourselves, have absolutely no value at all.

Peter C
You apparently love to hear yourself talk.
You also apparently have feminism defined to your
own terms. You have just defined feminism as
pro-abortion. Not even, that many feminists (but
by no means all) prefer to keep the government
out of this decision, but that they all FOR
abortion. In fact, you said not one other thing
about feminists or the very broad definition of
feminism.

Since your post was addressed to me, I would like
you to tell me just exactly what you know about
me from what I posted - not what you THINK I am.

Without bothering to go deep into a defense of
feminism when this is the quality of the audience, I will just say that there is nothing
intrinsically extremist in feminism. There is an
element which is radical, as there is a radical
element in both the right and the left in the political system, in the religious systems, and in almost any other system you can name.

While going back through earlier posts, I have
discovered that quite a few people have found you
to be obnoxious. Sort of the Brit Twit, as it
were. If my experiences with other Brits were
the same as with you, I would turn in my
creditials as an Anglophile. Fortunately,
that has not been the case for me.

And if the Archbishop of Buenos Aires is such a
leading Christian figure, why haven't I heard of
him, or for that matter why should I care anyway.
I can tell by his statement (unless this is just
a fragment of a fragment of a larger and more
insiteful statement) that we are not on the same
wavelength at all.

'But it is the truth." Oh, you pompous jerk. Give me a break. When I want to be lectured
about abortion I will at least mention the word in my post.
Until then, do NOT make assumptions about me you
know nothing about. If I thought you exemplified Christianity, I would also turn in my credentials as a lifelong Christian.





A Transparent World.
Lemonade:-
"It is all such utter nonsense. I have been a feminist, with no apologies to anyone, since I was in college in the 60's and all these garbage quotes were being written. That was not my take on feminism then or now. Nor was it for the vast majority of us".

40,000,000 + human lives terminated in the USA alone since abortion was legalized in the 1970's (there are presently over 4,000 similar such acts of murder being committed each week in my own country alone, the United Kingdom).

These are not meaningless literary quotes Lemonade. This is not 'jargon'.

This is the reality of the women's movement as it has evolved under the banner of feminism over the past 30-40 years.

A human life lying in a stainless steel tray on a hospital table - sometimes, for a tragic moment, still moving and breathing - is the empirical truth about the warped modern demands and fantasies of 'women's rights', not a pseudo-intellectual theory Lemonade.

Just these facts alone, quite aside from the reality of family breakdown, deteriorating standards in education, rising crime rates, population decline and ageing western civilizations etc. etc. etc. - are more than sufficient to enable any rational and unselfish human being to see that your 'take on feminism', as you put it, is one that sees through the entire world as if it were transparent glass.

But as C.S. Lewis once said:

"But a wholly transparent world is an invisible world. To see through all things is the same as not to see".

And symptomatic of the childlike, naive and ruthlessly selfish attitudes that you reveal within yourself here - you, too, either cannot see, or choose to ignore the truth Lemonade .

But I will provide you with one quote. But it not old, cracked record jargon that you ironically and hypocritically suggest is the essence of anti-feminism and which justifies, in your own deluded mind, scornful dismissal.

It is something that was said seven months ago, in October of last year, 2006, by the Archbishop of Buenos Aires .

"Feminism is a message of division, hatred and death".

That does, indeed, define the modern women's movement, and what is has now become, perfectly.

And whether you want to dismiss it because they are the words of a leading Christian figure, or whether, like eveything, you choose to 'see through' them because they are not what you want to hear - that is up to you.

But it is the truth. And, as I have said before on this website, the secular world will eventually agree with the conclusions reached by the Archbishop. But unlike the Archbishop, or rather what he represents, the secular world will react against feminism in an untempered way, using reformative measures that the church would never condone or consider.

Extremism always creates its own antithesis. Open a history book Lemonade, and see for yourself.


Hang in there JoJo
The castigating of feminists and feminism is an ongoing thing on Town Hall. It isn't going to go
away. Each time, the columnists and then the posters will dredge up decades old quotes from the most radical of the radicalists and try to tell us that this is the equivalent of today's feminism, this is why the liberals are so terrible and why the conservative women are the
salvation of the world.

It is all such utter nonsense. I have been a feminist, with no apologies to anyone, since I was in college in the 60's and all these garbage quotes were being written. That was not my take on feminism then or now. Nor was it for the vast majority of us. My children are all grown now,
lovely responsible people with college degrees, jobs and kids and church and PTA and all those things that are part of the American Dream. No bad grades, no drug problems, no truancy, no divorces. How did that all happen with a feminist mama.

Anyone who has read Dworkin knows that she was
not born hating men. She suffered severe abuse
at the hands of her husband. Others were raped
by fathers or strangers. Some people learn to
deal with their anger (like my sister, though
she still suffers from bouts of severe depression
after 30 years), others do not. Not many of them
are any more misogynistic than regular poster
Demonsthenese. In fact, I truly believe that
if his postings were brought before a court, his
gun would be taken away from him. He is seriously scary.

This blather is not going to go away. Let them
talk. I guess it makes them feel superior.
After all, you have to blame someone for all the
woes of the world. It might as well be the same
people all the time. Liberals, Feminists, Hillary, Billary.

And Eesti, really. Give it up. "The feminists of the NOW abhor American men seeking foreign women uninfected by radical American femnism. "
Get a life. Please.









Bad for everyone
This "extreme" job model is bad for everyone. You can't be a good parent if you never see your child--whether you are a mother or a father doesn't matter. It also promotes unhealthy living and unhealthy pressures that encourage stress related health problems--heart disease, high cholesterol, high blood pressure, etc. No body needs to work themselves to death in America in the year 2007--it just isn't necessary.

eesti
Foreign women do indeed have attitudinal diferences. In my youth i was a field engineer and came into contact with quite a few foreign women. American men on temporary work in say, the Philipines, quickly become aware that foreign women rate American men very highly as amiable, responsible husbands. I never trusted myself as able to determine the difference between the gold diggers and the ones who were sincere. My friends who chose to marry foreign girls made out about 50/50, though the careful thoughtful men did much better than that. I held out for a good ol' American girl.

IMBRA: a haunting reincarnation
Peter thanks for your insights. I forgot to mention that the new IMBRA law also requires another backgound clearance before marriage can occur within the USA. Is the United States becomming a police state and why does the National Organization of Women believe that romance and marriage has become such a radioactive pursuit that it must be regulated (PREVENTED).

You mentioned Germany. I can guarantee that Germany would never invote a law such as IMBRA. That's because Germany did in fact have a law in the 1930's that required background clearances before two people could marry. The International Marriage Broker Regulation Act is a haunting reincarnation of the German law.

The German law was enacted under the guise of protecting women but the real purpose was more sinister... to prevent jewish men from marrying German women. The newly passed American IMBRA law was supposedly enacted to protect foreign women from violence but the real motive is also more sinister ...The feminists of the NOW abhor American men seeking foreign women uninfected by radical American femnism.
These foreign women have attitudinal differences being more conservative and family orientated than their brainwashed American counterparts.

These types of laws sets a dangerous precedent. We know what happened after Germany invoked their law. The newly enacted American IMBRA law is a stepping stone for more draconian laws creating a "brute" barrier
between men and women involved in a legal pursuit marriage and frienship.

Megam Besham
I want to thank the author of this article Megan Besham for writing a brilliant story. In case many of you are not aware Megan is a mainstream femnist who believes that men and women should be treated equally in terms of social political and econmomic equality. Megan is NOT a radical feminist.

I would like to invite Megan to consider writing
an article on the International Marriage Broker Regulation Act of 2005. This unconstitutional law allows the government to interfere with the Universal right of an American man to say "hello" to a woman in a foreign country with the US government requiring background checks before they can COMMUNICATE.

In the movie "Titanic" Jack would not have saved
"Rose" considering the time required for him to produce his background clearance. IMBRA does in fact require background clearance before an American can correspond or date a foreigner at the initial stage of a relationship.

This draconian law was inventd by the radical feminists on the fabrication that violent Americn men like to wed foreign women. But the law was based upon cooked statistics and false and misleading conslusions.

But please don't take my word for it. Type in "IMBRA 2005" and see how much opposition there for this law.

A debate about.......?
And they all lived happily ever after!

LOL.

After reading today's Townhall.com columns - I just thought I'd pop in here and see if the carnival was still in town. Unbelievably it seems so. After reading the latest exchanges, and now that the rotation of my brain, and other sensibilities are beginning to slow down - all I feel compelled to contribute is.....

Tallil2long, in response to an example of ridiculous legislation provided by eesti - and a question as to whether you endorse such legislation, laws that has been inspired by extremism and paranoia (my words, not eesti's), you duly responded........

"If the duly elected representatives of the American people think such a thing should be law, then yes".

Tallil2long, the representatives of the German people in the 1930's (and Hitler was initially democratically elected), thought that many things should become the law as well. Things that millions of brainwashed people also agreed with at the time, but later came to bitterly regret. As time, along with its natural and eternal allies of truth and reason, eventually put such things into perspective.

Tallil2long : Read Bork's book
Tallil2long you have spent the last several days with your childlike antics claiming that I said "Jojo is a liar". Apparently you like to press the press the mute button to cut out the truth that disturbs you. Here is what I stated to JoJo, "MORE THAN LIKELY you read about the incident or heard about this through the media and then fine tuned the story and changed it somewhat to fit your hysterical needs to create a fantasy and a misleading perception."
Please show me where I called her out an outright liar. The key words "More than likely" imply I was highly suspicious but notice stopping short of calling her a liar".

"I can't stand falsity and inaccuracy". If you can't stand falsity and innaccuracy why are you wasting your time defending Jojo's story about a rape that has numerous questionable circumstances. You can't prove this incident happened and yet you stand on your pedestial crying "spilled milk" for an event 40 years ago complaining I am suspicious and thus a liar when the oneness to prove a criminal act rests upon the prosecutor.
In regards to your question "What evidence have I provided you, by word or deed, that indicates I am a feminist?" In order to answer that question one must define exactly what does the word feminist really mean in the context of todays modern world. Mainstream feminists have an ideology aligned toward achieving equality with men in terms of equal footing regarding social, political and econimc status. I fully support this endeavor and based upon your numerous statements regarding your conservative views would imagine you concur.
Radical feminists are not interested in achieving political, economic and social equality because these endeavors have already been achieved. Todays feminists are radical in nature and their continued existence suggests a possible motive other than protecting women from violence. Today's radical feminists are involved in some good causes using these good caues as leverage to take advantage of good nature in people to push through their one sied radical self serving extremist agenda.
Tallil2long there is an old saying that would apply here: In today's modern world American men and women can't see the forest for the trees being misguided and failing to understand the differences between the today's radical feminist and the mainstream feminsts 30 years ago.

Perhaps as a conservative you should enlighten your life and read a book by Robert Bork, "Slouching towards Gomorrah".

http://www.tldm.org/news5/bork_feminism.htm




Oops, I owe eesti some answers
eesti asked
"Tallil2long Do you believe that feminists have ever used a few isolated cases of abuse to get politicans fired up to gets laws enacted?"

Yes.

"Do you think the US government should interfere with the right of American servicemen to say hello to a woman in a foreign country with the government requiring backgrouncd checks before they can communicate?"

If the duly elected representatives of the American people think such a thing should be law, then yes.



Now, why not answer MY question. What evidence have I provided you, by word or deed, that indicates I am a feminist?

Feel free to email me the response, at the account I provided above. Because I won't be coming back here.

Okay, one last response to you, eesti
"Your only discussions on this board center on the fact that you are calling me a "liar" because I have merely questioned Jojo's suspicious story "

Nope, never called you a liar. Said you don't have any grounds for suggesting that JoJo is a liar. And if you have any, you have still failed to produce it.

"the lack of any reliable evidence allows me the right to reserve judgement that Jojo and Tallil2long are the same person"

Now you're just being silly. My first response to JoJo (which you can read if you scroll up) ended with the words "Please, before claiming 'strawman argument', take one moment to see if the problem DOES exist, despite the author's failure to properly source his or her claims."
Yep, clearly I and JoJo are the same person. I argue with myself *all* the time.

Now, truly I have wasted far too much time on this discussion. If you have anything relevant to add, email me at james.edward.anderson@us.army.mil.

Tallilil2llong/ Jojo's false incinuation
Tallil2long / Jojo you wasted tons of bandwidth but haven't provided any real substance to this board towards a meaningful discussion. Your only discussions on this board center on the fact that you are calling me a "liar" because I have merely questioned Jojo's suspicious story regarding an aquaintance who supposedly was raped by several boys in Chicago forty years ago. In addition she claimed the investigation was was aimed toward placing suspicion against the victim. Please supply more evidence because the lack of any reliable evidence allows me the right to reserve judgement that Jojo and Tallil2long are the same person who obviously enbraces feminists ideal and MAY NOT be telling the entire truth.
AS I mentioned anyone can post messages on this board and I would rather discuss concrete facts that can be proved. Your lack of any reliable scientific proof and lack of any meanngful facts reveal you have an ulterior motive other than revealng the truth.






in response to eesti
In fact, you did NOT provide evidence refuting that JoJo's acquaintance was raped, yet you effectively called her a liar anyway ('JoJo's fantasy illusions'; remember?).

You're right: we could debate this until we're both blue in the face. The bottom line is this: you believe in guilt until innocence is proven (i.e. JoJo is a liar until proven honest) and I believe in innocent until proven guilty (i.e. JoJo may be inventing her story, but it is unjust to accuse her of dishonesty without good reason). My way smoothes the path for civil debate. Your way, arbitrarily accusing people of dishonesty, is destructive of civil debate.
Your way of arbitrarily labelling someone like me a 'feminist' without supporting evidence also detracts from civil debate.

I've tried long enough. Let the other readers choose between our ways. Good day, and I hope you learn wisdom.

Wendy Mcelroy is a feminist I admire
Tallil2long: Read this information before you
answer question 2...

Mail Order Bride Law Brands U.S. Men Abusers
By Wendy McElroy (01/12/06)

The Violence Against Women Act (VAWA), signed by President Bush on January 5th, contains an almost unnoticed attachment. Subtitle D, also known as the International Marriage Broker Regulation Act of 2005 (IMBA), will become law when VAWA is enacted. The IMBA is an ostensibly noble measure with a surprising and ominous twist.

The scant attention directed toward the IMBA has been positive. A headline in Washington State's The Daily Herald announced, "Mail-order brides gain protection" with the subtitle "The mother of a murdered immigrant hopes that pending federal legislation will keep foreign brides from abuse, neglect and slavery."

The "murdered immigrant" refers to Anastasia King, a 'mail-order bride' from the former Soviet Union. In 2000, King was murdered by her husband in Washington State where the case created a sensation largely because the husband had violently assaulted a previous mail-order bride. Thus, the IMBA was introduced to Congress by Washington State Rep. Rick Larsen and Sen. Maria Cantwell who championed the measure for years.

Some parts sound reasonable. For example, U.S. consulates will provide 'mail-order' brides with brochures that explain their legal rights.

Other parts sound draconian. For example, the IMBA requires American men who wish to correspond with foreign women through private for-profit matchmaking agencies to first provide those businesses with their police records and other personal information to be turned over to the women.

Corresponding with a foreigner is legal. Marrying a foreigner is legal. Immigrating spouses and their husbands go through rigorous and lengthy screening before visas are issued. Mail-order brides in the U.S. are protected by laws against violence.

Now American men who wishes to pursue a legal activity must release their government files to a foreign business and foreign individuals for their personal benefit.

(Note: the Act's language is gender-neutral but its clear purpose is to protect foreign women from predatory American men. Application to 'male-order' husbands would be incidental as such 'brides' are relatively rare.)

The disclosure requirement is detailed under the provision entitled "Obligations of International Marriage Broker With Respect to Mandatory Collection of Information."

An international broker cannot provide contact or general information on a foreign woman to an American man unless that broker first collects and discloses to the woman the following information about the man:


--every state of residence since the age of 18;
--current or previous marriages as well as how and when they terminated;
--information on children under 18;
--any arrest or conviction related to controlled substances, alcohol or prostitution, making no distinction on arrests not leading to conviction;
--any court orders, including temporary restraining orders which are notoriously easy to procure;
--any arrest or conviction for crimes ranging from "homicide" to "child neglect";
--any arrest or conviction for "similar activity in violation of Federal, State or local criminal law" without specifying what "similar" means.


U.S. law will provide foreign women with extensive government information on American suitors which is not similarly offered to American women.

Nor should it be.

Contacting a woman for romantic purposes -- internationally or domestically -- is not a crime. Those who do so are not apriori criminals who must prove themselves innocent before being allowed an email exchange.

How many American men will be impacted by the IMBA? According to Rep. Larsen, between 8,000 and 12,000 American men find foreign wives through for-profit brokers each year. Presumably, a considerably higher number attempt but fail to find a wife who successfully emigrates.

Next to no statistics are available on how many 'mail-order' marriages are happy. A report on "the problem" by CBS accurately states, "No firm statistics exist on the extent of abuse suffered by mail-order brides, or even the numbers of such women."

The few media accounts that provided background for the IMBA referred to two 'mail-order brides' who were murdered: Anastasia King in 2000, and Susanna Blackwell in 1995. The murders are deplorable.

But no solid foundation of data underlies Sen. Cantwell's claim of "a growing epidemic of domestic abuse among couples who meet through a broker." There is no reason to believe that violence against mail-order brides is higher than against women in general. No evidence supports the criminalization of every American man who looks overseas for a wife.

And, yet, such men are easy targets. Men who seek wives abroad often explicitly state that women here are not worth marrying because they are too independent, ruined by feminism, or 'fill in the pejorative blank.' If some of those ideal wives subsequently say "goodbye" at the first glimpse of a green card, I can't muster much sympathy.

What I do sympathize with, however, are the privacy rights of people who are considered guilty until proven innocent. This is especially true when a government violates the privacy of its own citizens to benefit foreign individuals.

What view of the American man does the IMBA broadcast to the world?

American men are so predatory and violent that the U.S. government must protect foreign women by providing police checks before allowing the men to say "hello." The "Ugly American" has become an article of federal law, supported by Congress.



Tallil2long

Tallil2long:
Its useless to debate the particulars of some personal experience you or me once had or claim to have had. Anyone can write anything on this board which is completely unproveable. Therefore it's inappropriate to suggest I provided "NO evidence" to refute Jojo's claim that an aquaintance was raped and vice versa. Once again she brought up the subject and as stated her story is subject to a great deal of suspicion.
Your feminist and liberal suggestions stating that I "cannot provide any examples in which I advocate feminist or liberal principles" are rather ludicrious.

If you read my previous posts you will discover numerous examples of feminists claiming false charges of abuse and rape ...though I notice you haven't provided any scientific evidence or anything material other than you obsession with your demands that we admit your are a liberal and a feminst which of course is quite evident regardless of your sex.

Tallil2long Do you believe that feminists have ever used a few isolated cases of abuse to get politicans fired up to gets laws enacted?

Do you think the US government should interfere with the right of American servicemen to say hello to a woman in a foreign country with the government requiring backgrouncd checks before they can communicate?

Please answer the questions in order.






In response to eesti
No, let's just try to stick to one question at a time.
Even as you accused JoJo of lying without evidence, you accused me of being a liberal and a feminist. I submit that you have NO evidence for that either.
Now, if you cannot provide any examples in which I advocate feminist or liberal principles, then you strongly support my case that one ought not throw around accusations mindlessly.

So tell me, what feminist or liberal positions have I espoused?

In response to Tallil2long
Tallil2long/Jojo

Yes I do see how your mind works. After making several statements regarding my suspicions about JoJo's story about a rape that supposedly happened 40 years after I gave you the benefit of doubt stating that " Lets assume for the sake of argument that Jojo has been truthful in her story".
Your dissatisfaction with my answer is the classical self aggravating strategy challenging men who dare to openly challenge feminism's childlike fantasy. Your convoluted argument complaining that I fail to "understand her positions *do not* depend on one particular personal experience" is the an thesis of her (and your) entire argument because she had insisted that both myself and Peter failed to acknowledge this single case of rape.
And your immediate dismissal of my initial claim (that Lilly was not being COMPLETELY honest) IS a case of assuming guilt that both Peter and myself were "guilty" in the absence of any accurate and detailed information you failed to provide to make an assessment in the first place.

But since you brought up the subject of "more than one particular instance" lets examine the broader picture at your request. We can certainly agree that indeed there are cases where women have been raped and abused and many of these women's groups have actually been involved in good causes also. All to often the radical feminists use a "backdoor strategy" using these good causes as leverage, to take advantage of the good nature in people and push through one sided, self serving extremist agendas.

One example is the Tahirih Justice Center a women's legal Immigrant Service Provider who received $700,000 in Federal grants last year, spending some to help abused women but spending greatly on "Public Policy and Advocacy" and paid lobbyists.

As mentioned earlier TJC was primary promoter of the International Marriage Broker Regulation Act. The law was invented by TJC and the National Organization of Women on the fabrication that International Matchmaking Organizations were correlated with human trafficking of women, despite the fact that there has never been any such connection since they never cited any such cases. (since you are so insistent regarding proof or innocence don't you think the promoters of such hysteria should provide at least example to support their claim?)

While feminists claimed the purpose of the law was to protect women from abuse they masked the true intent of preventing American men from associating with traditional and likely attractive younger women from foreign countries that American feminists abhor.

Here is a quote from a leading women's group who sponsored the law: "Bringing a woman to the US is NOT ALWAYS considered to be sex trafficking. SOME of the men treat their wives well and are looking for companionship, not just a housekeeper who provides sex".

(You wanted the big picture) These women's groups are using propaganda to suggest that all marriages with foreign women to be "servile" sex trafficking and inherently abusive. This was the basis upon which the feminists used to get this draconian law passed.

Does anyone out there reading this forum believe there was an ulterior motive to get this law passed?


In response to eesti
Yes, you see how that works? One may recognize that some feminists *have* used deceitful tactics, while still 'assuming for the sake of argument that JoJo has been truthful'. We need not be gullible to assume innocence until guilt has been proven.

Now, why not take the second leap and try debating her basic points *without* worrying about whether her personal experience story is true, at all? You see, as I pointed out, her positions *do not* depend on one particular personal experience.

In response to eesti
Yes, you see how that works? One may recognize that some feminists *have* used deceitful tactics, while still 'assuming for the sake of argument that JoJo has been truthful'. We need not be gullible to assume innocence until guilt has been proven.

Now, why not take the second leap and try debating her basic points *without* worrying about whether her personal experience story is true, at all? You see, as I pointed out, her positions *do not* depend on one particular personal experience.

In response to Peter C
"can anyone... be in the least bit surprised that you got labelled a feminist and a liberal..."

If one assumes that the terms 'liberal' and 'feminist' mean "someone who advocates decency in public debate", then one shouldn't be surprised.

If one assumes that the terms 'feminist' and 'liberal' represent certain contemporary political and social positions, then yes, one should be surprised. I expressed NO opinions or views that accord with modern feminism or liberalism, and well you know it. However, since I disapproved of your groundless accusation of lying, you wrongly assume I must be a political enemy.

But come, tell me what feminist or liberal views I espoused? Let me tell you how liberal or feminist I am. I believe that men and women should marry for life, and practice abstinence until they do; children should be taught this. I believe abortion kills a human being and is therefore sinful. I believe that God, the one described in the Bible, is sovereign Lord of creation and deserves our love and obedience; and Christ is the Son of God. I believe that homosexual acts are sinful, as being contrary to the only approved plan for human sexuality in the Bible. I believe that hating gays for their sin is unChristian, but that refusing to approve their acts is not in itself hatred. I believe people should be held responsible for their own acts. I believe the government should NOT be responsible for charity; individuals should be taught to demonstrate compassion for others. I believe the U.S. is NOT in danger of becoming a theocracy just because Christians are doing and preaching what they should. I believe the people's right to keep and bear arms should not be abridged.
I could go on, but you would never be convinced, because you throw the terms 'feminist' and 'liberal' at whomever you have decided not to like, regardless of their actual views.

Lets look at the larger picture
JoJo and Tallil2:

OK lets assume for the sake of argument that Jojo has been truthful in her story alledging that an aquaitenance was gang raped by several men in Chicago 40 years ago.

Feminists will grab any opportunity to play the victim and run with it.
Womens groups have consistently used this strategy of sensationalizing a single (or few)tragic cases exaggerated by rumor hysteria to get politicans to enact laws with a HIDDEN AGENDA.

Here is an example:

http://video.wjla.com/wjla/candidate0725.wmv

In July 2006 David Dickerson a 43 year old Senate candidate from Maryland was accused of raping his beautiful 19 year old Latvian wife. When the story broke the Tahirih Justice Center (a women's legal group)immediately contacted the media staging a hysteria of "immigrant woman abuse" coaching the reporter Scott Thurman to claim that 30-50% of foreign women are abused. Then Tahirih Justice hysterically claimed this was just part OF A MUCH LARGER PROBLEM.

Three weeks later all charges against Dickerson
were dropped and Tahirih Justice center was nowhere to be seen.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/11/AR2006081101536_pf.html

Tahirih Justice Center was the lead proponent of the International Romance Regulation Act. They have a history of sensationalizing a few cases of abuse of foreign brides wed to American men (via internet)inflated by rumor yada yada.

While the stated purpose of the law was to protect foreign women from abuse the feminists masked their true purpose...a stepping stone to destroy Internet freedom preventing American men from corresponding and marrying traditional conservative women such as those georgeous Russian ladies that feminists abhor and are threatened by. (psst... it's called jealousy)












A male, conservative, soldier indeed!
Tallil2long:-
"The irony is that I am not a feminist. I am male, a United States soldier, and quite conservative. Unfortunately, I get labelled a liberal and a feminist just because I can't stand falsity and inaccuracy, even in those from my own end of the political spectrum".

Yes - alleged fellow conservative.

Can anyone who has followed this thread of debate through the clear light of day (i.e. people who are not Left wing rear-view mirror readers) be in the least bit suprised that you 'get labelled a liberal and a feminist' (as you lament) - if your online modus operundi includes reproaching those who are openly sceptical (to put it mildly) of the claims made by people like JoJo, and you reproach them with the statement....

"I can't stand falsity and inaccuracy"

...a reproach that is directed at the sceptics!

What was it Albert Einstein was saying about the infinite nature of human stupidity?




in response to eesti
"The problem with feminists like Tallil2long is they use hysteria and exaggeration"

The irony is that I am not a feminist. I am male, a United States soldier, and quite conservative. Unfortunately, I get labelled a liberal and a feminist just because I can't stand falsity and inaccuracy, even in those from my own end of the political spectrum.

As for my statement about Lilly, it is literally true. You CANNOT know the truth of Lilly's claim, even though you may be right about it being created out of whole cloth.

Feminism: a destructive hate movement
Tallil2long has stated, "Quite literally, you CANNOT know the truth (or lack thereof) of Lilly's claim about her friend being raped."

The problem with feminists like Tallil2long is they use hysteria and exaggeration. The feminists have been allowed to use their childlike hysteria short on facts and long on exaggeration.These are the same femnists who partnered with LIFETIME Television in their mini series "Human Trafficking" in October 2005 claiming that International matchmaking organizations were correlated with hman trafficking rings.

Yet when asked how many International matchmaking Organizations have been convicted of Trafficking they refused to answer the question insisting that "its difficult to document a trend" or "Women are afraid to report to authorities for fear of retaliation". The truth revealed there never has been one single case of a matchmaking organization convicted of trafficking.

Peter is right and this is exactly the type of false and misleading propaganda feminists like Jojo use to constantly "brainwash" the American public and media using tawpayers money to pay for this hysteria.

In July 2004 the proponents of the IMBRA were so brazen they issued a Press Release depicting International Matchmaking Organizations being correlated to Human Trafficking rings. Yet as stated there has never been a US based Matchmaking Organization convicted of Trafficking. But yet the feminists continue to insist it actually occur. Of course the feminists believe that all marriages between traditional conservative foreign women and American men represents sevile sex trafficking.

http://www.emediawire.com/releases/2004/7/prweb138739.htm

(PRWEB) July 4, 2004 -- To gain bipartisan support for the International Marriage Broker Regulation Act, we endorse the strategies of (1) using "womens' protection" as the main theme of the law; and (2) claiming that American-based marriage brokers are part of global human trafficking rings, however unfounded.

We also support provisions of the Act that will require brokers to conduct large quantities of consent verifications and background checks before American men can write love letters or make any contact with foreign women. These provisions will make it very difficult for American-based marriage brokers to organize those disgusting overseas introduction "parties" where women outnumber men 100 to 1. These provisions will also drive up costs to the point of putting most brokers out of business. In addition, this law effectively places "warning labels" on American men thus decreasing demand for them among foreign women over time.

Although this law is long overdue (and hopefully not too late), we welcome the Marriage Broker Regulation Act of 2003 as a means to regulating the often arrogant and brazen international marriage broker industry. This industry has gone from the fringe to the mainstream. The American male population is now overly exposed to the message that it is acceptable to desire and actually marry women "unspoiled" by American materialism and most troubling, "uninfected" by American feminism. This message may impede the progress of feminism here at home and give American men the idea that it is acceptable to not respect feminist principles that took so long to instill upon them.

The marriage broker websites promulgate the "message" that American men are highly desirable outside the U.S. and can have access to women not intent on upholding over 30 years of hard won womens' rights. These sites also offensively elaborate on the reasons for rejecting American women as part of a campaign to promote the desirablity of foreign women. We find this to be most appalling.

Certainly, the existence of this industry is indicative of the sad state of romantic relationships between men and women in North America; however, it by no means should be allowed to continue unregulated. Sites such as http://www.americanwomensuck.com and http://www.nomarriage.com are problematic enough.







In response to PeterC
Quite literally, you CANNOT know the truth (or lack thereof) of Lilly's claim about her friend being raped. And your immediate dismissal of her claim IS a case of assuming guilt (Lilly's supposed lying) in the absence of proof of innocence. Thus, you assume a position contrary to the American concept of justice.
With regard to related personal experiences, you cannot have any grounds to dismiss whatever is related to you by total strangers (unless the experience has been documented publicly). And please note that Lilly's arguments about feminism (in keeping with my claim) DO NOT hinge upon the validity of her related experience.

As for hateful extremism and fanaticism, I daresay I am doing more to fight those in this, my third deployment, than most have.

Madness is having an easy ride.
Tallil2long:-
"I have concluded that it is best to take people at their word when no proof to the contrary can be found".

The 'enrichment' of our laws and of our culture that suggests people are 'guilty until proven innocent' - right?.

Tallil2long:-
"Generally their claims do not hinge on the truth or fiction of the account they provide, anyway".

Are you serious?

Oh dear. It is plain to see why hateful extremism and fanaticism, once it has a hold, has always been able to gallop across a society until its people have learned their lesson the hard way - until they have been collectively badly damaged.

Albert Einstein once said:

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the first".

In response to PeterC, Lilly, and Denis
In all fairness, though you might believe Lilly's account to be a stereotyped fiction, you CANNOT actually know this.
I have concluded that it is best to take people at their word when no proof to the contrary can be found. Generally their claims do not hinge on the truth or fiction of the account they provide, anyway.

Indeed, I would have approached the situation thusly:
Yes, Lilly, the event you describe was horrible and unjustifiable. However, it is clear from laws passed and procedures adopted in the last few decades that the situation IS improving. Unjust treatment can never be excused, but it is significant that even thirty years ago, husbands' right to compel their wives to have sex with them was unquestioned, implying a strong perception equating the wife with property. Now the law is much different.
Many bad things have happened and will continue to happen. However, it is not therefore correct to conclude that all self-described feminists are responsible seekers of equal rights, that most or all judges and law enforcement officials are misogynist, or that any particular percentage of American men desire a return to the 'good old days' when presumably not a single husband loved and cherished his wife as anything but a possession.

And Denis, you've already posted those quotes once. It isn't really neccessary to repeat them ad nauseum.

In response to JoJo
"There is alot of mythology about the women's movement, probably I react to it because I have considered myself and many of my friends part of that so when I hear people telling mehow I feel and what my attitudes are I get angry. "

I can understand that it is pretty offensive when people stereotype you. As a man, a soldier, and a Christian, I get stereotyped all the time on HuffingtonPost and Salon.
However, being offended doesn't justify the patent wrong of denying that the existence of the attitudes which the author mentions, solely because the author didn't provide sources. And that is precisely what you did in your original post.
Civil debate must be intellectually HONEST.

Another fantasy novel. Yawn.
Who would have known? "Gender discrimination" is a conspiracy mandated by a small group of dudes,

Betchya Ellen Bravo is all for IMBRA. Those foreign women would just throw a wrench in her plans to rejig American society.


http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2007/04/15/RVGA5P2IVL1.DTL&type=printable



Rising women float all boats
Reviewed by Ruth Rosen
Sunday, April 15, 2007

Taking On the Big Boys

Or Why Feminism Is Good for Families, Business and the Nation

By Ellen Bravo

THE FEMINIST PRESS; 294 PAGES; $15.95 PAPERBACK

Would most Americans agree that feminism is good for families, business and the nation? I doubt it. I suspect that most people would say feminism is merely about individual advancement, rather than improving everyone's lives through gender equality.

But ask Ellen Bravo, author of "Taking On the Big Boys," who for 20 years ran the feminist organization 9to5, whose mission is to improve the lives of working women. She will tell you that "our goal is not equal numbers of females among the Big Boys. What we want isn't just more women in power, but more power to women as a whole and others who have been disenfranchised. To achieve that, we have to do more than smash the glass ceiling -- we have to redesign the building."

And who are the Big Boys that female workers must challenge? Though the term "Big Boys" is rather elusive and vague, Bravo knows exactly who they are. They are, she writes, "what I call the relatively small number of men who have a real stake in maintaining gender discrimination. They're the ones who control wealth and power in this country." They are the executives, elected officials, lobbyists and pundits who don't care that "the majority of women in the United States earn less than $25,000 a year" or that "the average woman loses nearly a half million dollars over her lifetime because of pay inequities" or who are ignorant of the fact that "Cameroon, Brazil and India offer better maternity leave than we do," and who don't care that "the percentage of female executives is down and the percentage of kids in poverty has gone back up." And don't forget, Bravo reminds us, some of these Big Boys wear skirts and strapless heels.

For 40 years, women have been entering the labor force and trying to squeeze themselves into a workplace designed for men who had few family responsibilities. The result? Working parents, especially mothers, have felt torn apart, and lost any sense of balance in their lives. At the same time, women's work -- whether paid or unpaid -- is still undervalued.

Ironically, feminists, rather than the Big Boys, have been blamed for many of the domestic problems caused by the very Big Boys that Bravo describes. Women just can't win. "Those who aren't willing to work like maniacs are seen as incompetent and uncommitted. If they leave, they aren't driven out -- they're 'opting out' to be at home. Women with children who hang on to these jobs are seen as selfish, handing their kids over to strangers to raise. On the other end of the economic spectrum, women who want to stay home are called lazy, bad role models for their children."

With exquisite wit and meticulous research, Bravo counters the myths we live by. One such myth is that most workers can take leave to care for new babies and elderly parents. Bravo instead examines the places at which we work and discovers that such flexibility -- even when leave is unpaid -- is mostly unavailable to American workers.

After debunking each myth, Bravo offers feminist solutions for changing family and work life in the 21st century. Here she presents the reader with a broad spectrum of public-policy changes that would cost less than one year of invading and occupying Iraq.

Bravo also offers activist strategies to achieve systemic change. True, there are now bookshelves filled with endless studies and articles by experts in the field of work-family problems -- largely because so little has changed in the past four decades. But Bravo's book is such an enjoyable and accessible read it just might galvanize general readers to put the problems faced by working women on the national public agenda.

Bravo is right that the pioneers of the modern women's movement of the late 1960s and 1970s dreamed of expanding equality and democracy. This is what she means by "social justice feminism."

"The society I envision," she writes, "reflects the best of our nation's ideals of fairness, liberty, opportunity and prosperity, but goes much further. In this feminist future, no one's success depends on anyone else's failure. ... Health care and education and having enough to eat will not be privileges, but rights belonging to all. The prosperity of the United States will become a force for eliminating, not perpetuating or profiting from poverty in the developing world. Our government will resolve conflicts not with preemptive military strikes, but as an equal partner in a global community."

Sound too utopian? Bravo dares us to dream, to seek gender equality and to fulfill our most cherished American ideals. She ends with a call to action: "Dream the world you want -- and let the Big Boys know we won't settle for anything less."

Ruth Rosen teaches history and public policy at UC Berkeley and is a senior fellow at the Longview Institute. She is author of an updated edition of "The World Split Open: How the Modern Women's Movement Changed America" (Penguin, 2007).

JOJO get to the facts
Jojo has stated, "I know who I am, I also know that people like you deny everything you don't want to hear."
Jojo, it is useless to debate the particulars of some personal experience you or me once had or claim to have had. Anyone can write anything on this board which is completely unproveable. Therefore it's inappropriate to berate Peter in a childlike manner for not believing your story... and then comparing Peter to the "type of man" who supposedly raped your so-called aquaintance. Your assertions are completely unfounded and absurd. (This is my professional opinion).

The only useful topics are those easily provable. One such topic would be the existence of International Marriage Broker Regulation Act that was passed by an undemocratic and unrecorded voice vote on Dec. 17, 2005 by various women's groups who manipulated a few dishonest politcans to slip the law behind another large bill when no was looking.
For more information search the yahoo search engine typing "IMBRA".

Ostensibly, the purpose of the law is to protect domestic abuse of immigrant women once they come to the USA. Indeed, the law was passed based on very few unfortunate cases around the country of a foreign lady spouse who became a victim of domestic abuse.

The only reliable study was done by the INS in a report that found a mere 1% abuse rate for couples who met through the Internet versus the 7% abuse rate for couples in the general US population. This report is titled, "International Matchmaking Organizations: A Report to Congress".

Jojo The sponsors of this law (various women's groups)have cited a few tragic cases of abuse representing an epidemic of abuse in International marriages inflated by rumor mill hysteria. The feminists have cleverly citing a 3 tragic cases of abuse carefully hiding the ugly American fact in which 17,000 American women have been killed by their American husbands over the same time frame.

Surely as a domestic outreach worker these statistics should interest yourself considering the vast overwhelming problem of domestic violence would be among the general US population not International matchmaking relationships. Yet vast amounts of money are being diverted away from the domestic women's shelters to pay for a manufactured epidemic of spousal abuse in International marriages (via the internet)that simply doesn't exist to any notable degree according to government reports.

Perhaps you are not interested in getting to the truth that entails accurate scientific evidence (empirical)in nature. After all its much easier for the women's groups to manufacture a illusionary problem inflated by rumor mill hysteria in order to get more money for the DOMESTIC VIOLENCE BUSINESS.





Peter C.
What irritates me about men like you is not that you don't believe me, but the woman I was describing had to put up with men like you during her entire ordeal. She asked for it, right?

Actually, you know I'm telling the truth, and the best way you can think of to slime me (but you are really sliming her) is to deny it.

You are pathetic.

Let me into the cuckoos nest!
JoJo:
"I don't think you are evil, Peter C., I just believe you are deluded, naive, and not a little crazy".

Well JoJo if being deluded, naive and a liitle crazy equates to not believing.......

A previous JoJo posting:

"I became interested in Women issues about that time, when an acquaintance of mine was gang raped and then beaten. When she was taken to the hospital, there were no women advocates or rape kits, the police just wanted to know why she was dressed provocatively (she was wearing bermuda shorts) and why she was out at 8:30 pm with only a girlfriend. This was in an affluent north shore suburb of Chicago; her assailants were all wearing letter jackets from one of the well-heeled high-schools.

Needless to say, her attackers were "never found", in fact, her lawyer and the local judge were golf partners, and she was basically told to grin and bear it".

........in this childlike, cliched and blatantly false comic book extract - then I will gladly keep taking the medication.

You are a very sad individual my dear.

one more wish
I will say a little prayer for any women who are living in the sphere of your life, God help them.

Peter C.
I know who I am, I also know that people like you deny everything you don't want to hear. As for your definition of a "movement that has willingly embraced evil and......cause..blind hatred amongst millions of numan beings", I am so stunned at the depth of your fear and hatred that I can only assume you are crazy, and I can only hope that you don't own a weapon.

As for rape "only happening on the margins", I suggest that you just keep telling yourself that, then you won't ever have to believe that it exists.

I don't think you are evil, Peter C., I just believe you are deluded, naive, and not a little crazy.


Hatred and its script.
eesti writes:

"JoJo: You're jumping to conclusions claiming I completely denied the incident you described. I merely implied your story seems suspicious..."

eesti - I think you are being commendably, but, perhaps, misguidedly diplomatic.

It is blatantly obvious that this women's tale consists of fictitious stick figures - borrowed from the various bibles that are the texts of Women's Studies courses, the agendas of radical feminist women's group meetings, and which are used as inspiration for the scripted chants of a Valentine's Day 'Take Back the Night' march (which has everything happening in historical unison with all mass hate movements of the past - everything except the goose step).

It is a wicked lie which she has stolen from events that have indeed happened on the margins of human life, but which she, like all feminists (and every social and political hatemonger since the dawn of time), attempts to amplify and superimpose onto the public conscience in a manner that completely distorts true perspective and which effectively blocks out the light of reality.

Shame on you JoJo. I have read all your postings in detail.

You are either a fundamentally wicked person - or a shallow and unintelligent individual who has been sadly brainwashed by a movement that has willingly embraced evil and which is determined to cause mistrust, division and even blind hatred amongst millions of human beings.

As to what you are, only you can answer that question. And you can only ever answer truthfully to yourself.

JoJo
JoJo: You're jumping to conclusions claiming I completely denied the incident you described. I merely implied your story seems suspicious and after 40 some years its easy to forget all the details whether on purpose or as an innocent mistake.

The details of any criminal case must be examined by the investigators thoroughly and as such all criminal cases. Why should I take your word as proof of what actually happened for an alleged criminal act you say occurred 40 years ago that you heard through an aquaintence- not even a close friend of relative. The burden of proof is upon the victim to prove the facts in a court of law and this judicial process is the pillar of a modern day democracy.

Unfortunately over the last 30 years women's groups have successfully managed to lower the threshold of evidence required at hearing for domestic violence. In addition to this fact women's groups have added an ever increasingly and more insane list of minor transgressions as I have mentioned (such as taking the car keys and shouting).
This is in fact a disturbing trend where false allegations of domestic violence are becoming common place. Therefore the real(True)victims of domestic violence are being "drowned out" by a sea of false allegations.
As long as people are able to make a living as a "professional in the field of domestic violence", there shall continue to be a gross failure to impact on the real problems which drive people to actually strike out against other human beings.

The "domestic violence" industry grows annually. The money, as well as the time and focus, which is set aside for "domestic violence" is not being spent effectively much of it wasted.

JoJo, The fact of the matter is that these NGO's (including your organization) rely on government grants and private donations for their existence and by exaggerating minor transgressions the numbers of false allegations increase along with an increase in money to fund your partially manufactured problem. If there is no problem you won't receive any money through private donations or grants. The $4 billion dollar "domestic violence industry" is fraught with corruption and waste on such a massive scale that if investigated would reveal such improprieties.

How much longer do you honestly think NGO Women’s groups can fool the taxpayers and politicians of America into spending (some) helping abused women, while spending greatly on paid lobbyists and Public Policy Advocacy and other misused funds?









Doomed
The culture of democratic individualism characterizes contemporary America and it still cuts two ways. Feminists insist on radical equality, and androgyny as the logical outcome of that drive for equality. Yet at the same time, especially since the baby boomers came on the scene, many American women have treated the experience of motherhood as an exercise in self-expression.

A modern, self-expressive, committed-to-full-equality American mother might know that her child is getting quality care from a relative, a nanny, or a nursery, but she’ll often feel dissatisfied, since the care isn’t hers. Part of the point of being a parent, she’ll feel, is to express one’s unique personality through how one cares for and shapes one’s children. In practical terms, she’ll be reluctant to give up her kids long enough to break the cycle of “gender reproduction.”

True, the last 40 years have seen tremendous changes in the social roles of men and women—changes that could never have happened were there not significant flexibility in gender roles. From the standpoint of feminism’s ideal of androgyny, though, the shift is still very partial. Until the link between women and child rearing completely breaks down, neither corporate boardrooms nor Harvard professorships of mathematics will see numerical parity between men and women. In the meantime, in disproportionate numbers, at critical points in their careers, women will continue to choose mothering over professional work.

From either a biological or cultural point of view, then, the feminist project of androgyny is ultimately doomed. But that doesn’t mean that it can’t do harm in the meantime. In America, many boys are slipping behind in school; their sisters are significantly more likely to go on to college. Yet thanks largely to the influence of academic feminists, legal and educational resources still flow disproportionately to supposedly victimized girls. In the end, gender won’t disappear, whatever the mavens of women’s studies hope, but the careers of some bright young men probably will.

JohnnyP writes:
"Think about the choices men have. 1) be a man and work and support your family, and die of necessary; 2) be a looser (this includes all other options)."

Too true - a number of feminists believe strongly that traditional gender roles have trapped and harmed men just as much as they have women - just in different ways.

Men should not have to sacrifice their ability to relate to their children because of our concept of being the primary or sole breadwinner. As I posted in another thread, my parents followed the traditional gender role paths, and I think we all suffered a bit for it. My father, of course, worked his butt off for us. And, under the pressure, and the constant knowledge that he was the only financial lifeline for four people, became a hard man, and one who my brother and I were unable to form a meaningful relationship with until we were in our 20s.

As I posted in another thread, I think my mother would have been happier working some, but I know that our family relationships would have been better if my father had worked less. My parents' personality types would not have worked with a total reverse, and him staying home, but the all/nothing wasn't the best approach for us.

Men should be free to be stay at home parents if that works for the family, and the partnership you are in - it's what my likely future husband and I will do, with some modifications. But even now, it's a struggle - those men are still viewed as 'losers' by some. Even my guy's father chokes on the idea. He has no problem with my working, as his own wife works; but the idea of his son *GASP* staying home with kids and NOT working! OH NO! :)

The fact of the matter, to me, is that the truly extreme work model doesn't work for any parent, male or female. But we have sanctioned the idea of men almost literally never seeing their children in pursuit of this, and their children suffer from not knowing their father. If not just mothers, but fathers too demand flexible work models that allow parents of both genders to make the combinations of in-home work and out-of-home work that make sense for them. If enough want it, the market will provide! (see, there's a solution in a capitalist framework.)

eesti
I am not surprised that the only way you have of dealing with my experience is to deny that it ever happened - it's the strategy always used by the right when they hear unpleasant facts - it's the media making it up, it's the left making it up, it's feminists making it up.

I personally don't care whether you believe my acquaintance (she was not a close friend) was raped or not - your denial is exactly what she was confronted with when she went to the police, and it's an old story.

I don't have a low opinion of American men, I just have a low opinion of hate-mongers and idiots who are sometimes men, sometimes women.

I'm sorry you have such a low opinion of women who respect themselves...fortunately, there are plenty of people - men and women alike - who don't, so I'm sure you have plenty of company.

BTW, I loved your story about women crying abuse when "the car keys are taken away." The first client who ever called me when I started volunteering for the Domestic Violence hotline refused to go to a shelter and was found beaten to death the next day. I'm sure you don't believe that either. I don't think you can afford to.

Dream on.

JOJO 's fantasy illusions
Jojo has stated "I suspect the two of you like this story and lament the old days, when boys could be boys and women knew their place...The phrase "no means no" is a result of the women's movement, guys, I know you are angry that it is out there, but you'd better face up to it.

Jojo I am sorry that you have such a low opinion of American men that you mistakenly believe that we would condone the raping of an innocent women. I know that the first instinct of most American men is to protect a women.

First of all you need to get your story straight. If indeed your friend was raped why would she choose a lawyer that was a friend of the police chief? More than likely you read about the incident or heard about this through the media and then fine tuned the story and changed it somewhat to fit your hysterical needs to create a fantasy and a misleading perception.

This is the typical feminist strategy used... getting the public fired up over a few unfortunate cases of abuse or rape and then exaggerate the scenario a thousand times using the Liftime TV or some other venue.

Lets face the facts over the last 30 years feminists have been very successful using propaganda (paid with taxpayers money) to expand the definition of rape and abuse to suite your imaginery needs. Fortunately (for the feminists cause) the liberal press has embraced radical feminism without questioning the exaggerated and dishonest propaganda. How much longer do you honestly think this can continue? Like a pendulum on a clock the feminist experiment having moved far to the "left" is doomed to failure as other movements in history.

Yes I would long for the days when womens groups were actually involved in a real(good)cause instead of using exaggerated themes to get more money. The American people have been bombarded with deceit and deception by the well financed and well organized NGO's. If you spoon feed lies and deception to politicans and the public over a long period eventually the lies and deception become the accepted norm regardless of how unfounded.

One example is the National Organization of Women who consider that psychological abuse is a crime of domestic violence despite no such connection with the law enforcement community.
"Shouting" and "taking the car keys away" are now considered domestic abuse.

The Ayuda study (greatly flawed)used some of these minor transgressions to get IMBRA passed by dishonest promoters and sponsors of the law.

IMBRA is just a small part of the ever lengthening and always more insane list of demands of the National Organization of Women.

If IMBRA stands without being challenged it sets a precedent to allow the government to interfere with romance and International love for any ridiculous manufactured reason.

No, I am not against protecting women from Violence. But I am against the feminist victim politics using fraud and exaggeration with increasing frequency to get laws pased that resemble legalized misandry.

Denis & Eesti
I think you're going to have to do better than drag up quotes from 40 years ago, many from people who already died of old age.

I became interested in Women issues about that time, when an acquaintance of mine was gang raped and then beaten. When she was taken to the hospital, there were no women advocates or rape kits, the police just wanted to know why she was dressed provocatively (she was wearing bermuda shorts) and why she was out at 8:30 pm with only a girlfriend. This was in an affluent north shore suburb of Chicago; her assailants were all wearing letter jackets from one of the well-heeled high-schools.

Needless to say, her attackers were "never found", in fact, her lawyer and the local judge were golf partners, and she was basically told to grin and bear it.

I suspect the two of you like this story and lament the old days, when boys could be boys and women knew their place. But after that I put in alot of time working to change the rights of rape victims in the state and across the country. The phrase "no means no" is a result of the women's movement, guys, I know you are angry that it is out there, but you'd better face up to it.

As for Eesti's rampaging army of man-hating grandmas, moms, and girls who are marching over the earth trying to destroy males, why don't you look for another cause? What we are trying to tell you is that women are not your enemy, and I don't understand why you are so obssessed with making it appear so.

Feminists exporting misandry

Today’s feminists are extending their tentacles into the International arena. They are no longer interested in achieving political social and economic equality. In the United States this goal has already been achieved and therefore their continued existence can only be construed as a man hating (misandrist)organizations.

Now that the feminists have succeeded in destroying marriage and traditional values in America they are exporting it to various foreign nations playing "the feminist victim politics card". These are not mainstream feminists but rather radicals whose demands for "equal rights" is often masked by powerful agendas.

Today's feminists want to control all aspects of social globalization and International Romance and love. American feminist groups such as the NOW and Tahirih Justice Center used the "feminist victim card" to get their radical tentacles into the International arena by successfully lobbying for the International Marriage Broker Regulation Act. (IMBRA)

IMBRA allows the US government to interfere with the Universal right to say "hello" to a woman from a foreign country with the government requiring background checks before American man can correspond using a traditional matchmaking organization. In addition the law mandates additional background checks before the couple can marry within the boundaries of the United States. Ironically these background checks are done NOT for National Security but simply because feminist abhor American men seeking foreign women uninfected by radical feminism.

The last time background checks were required in order for 2 people to get married occurred in Germany in 1938 with the government stating protection of the state while masking their hatred and the real reason (similar to the strategy of today's feminists)was to prevent Jews from marrying German women.

The NOW insists these women need protection because American men are inherently dangerous and potential serial rapists. This type of
hysteria short on facts and long on rumor mill misandry is typical of the NOW and Tahirih Justice Center.

Various women's groups got the law passed using deceptive, dishonest statistics coupled with rumor mill hysteria on the fabrication that American men like to wed foreign women because they are easier to abuse. Of course the proponents of IMBRA have never supplied any reliable scientific evidence.

Here is the truth: The only reliable study done on International marriages was done by the INS in 1999 in a Report: International Matchmaking Organizations: A Report to Congress". Despite numerous feminists pontifications and exaggerations in the first part the government wrote the Conclusion found a mere 1% abuse rate for International marriages facilitated via matchmaking organizations compared to the 7% abuse rates for all American couples.

The INS study roves the IMBRA law was developed on the false perception of an epidemic of abuse in International marriages (via the internet). Yet the truth reveals the exact opposite and demonstrates an ulterior motive preventing social globalization creating a brute blockade because feminists feel threatened that their domain is crumbling.

Threatened Feminists
The truth about feminists (not mythology).
Here's what they really believe:

“I want to see a man beaten to a bloody pulp with a high-heel shoved in his mouth, like an apple in the mouth of a pig.”
Ice And Fire - Andrea Dworkin

”Men who are unjustly accused of rape can sometimes gain from the experience.”

Vassar College. Assistant Dean of Students - Catherine Comin

“All men are rapists and that’s all they are.”

Author; (later, advisor to Al Gore’s Presidential Campaign.) - Marilyn French

“I feel that ‘man-hating’ is an honorable and viable political act, that the oppressed have a right to class-hatred against the class that is oppressing them.”

Ms. Magazine Editor. - Robin Morgan

“I claim that rape exists any time sexual intercourse occurs when it has not been initiated by the woman, out of her own genuine affection and desire.”

Ms. Magazine Editor. - Robin Morgan

“‘To call a man an animal is to flatter him; he’s a machine, a walking d*ldo.”

Scum Manifesto - Valerie Solanas

“(Rape) is nothing more or less than a conscious process of intimidation by which all men keep all women in a state of fear”

Against Our Will p.6. - Susan Brownmiller

“We are taught, encouraged, moulded by and lulled into accepting a range of false notions about the family. As a source of some of our most profound experiences, it continues to be such an integral part of our emotional lives that it appears beyond criticism. Yet hiding from the truth of family life leaves women and children vulnerable.”

- Canadian Panel on Violence Against Women

” How will the family unit be destroyed? …[T]he demand alone will throw the whole ideology of the family into question, so that women can begin establishing a community of work with each other and we can fight collectively. Women will feel freer to leave their husbands and become economically independent, either through a job or welfare.”

In “Female Liberation” - Roxanne Dunbarr

“Men are rapists, batterers, plunderers, killers; these same men are religious prophets, poets, heroes, figures of romance, adventure, accomplishment, figures ennobled by tragedy and defeat. Men have claimed the earth, called it “Her”. Men ruin Her. Men have airplanes, guns, bombs, poisonous gases, weapons so perverse and deadly that they defy any authentically human imagination.”

Pornography: Men Possessing Women - Andrea Dworkin

“The traditional flowers of courtship are the traditional flowers of the grave, delivered to the victim before the kill. The cadaver is dressed up and made up and laid down and ritually violated and consecrated to an eternity of being used.”

- Andrea Dworkin

“Heterosexual intercourse is the pure, formalized expression of contempt for women’s bodies.”

- Andrea Dworkin

“The cultural institutions which embody and enforce those interlocked aberrations - for instance, law, art, religion, nation-states, the family, tribe, or commune based on father-right - these institutions are real and they must be destroyed.”

- Andrea Dworkin

“My feelings about men are the result of my experience. I have little sympathy for them. Like a Jew just released from Dachau, I watch the handsome young Nazi soldier fall writhing to the ground with a bullet in his stomach and I look briefly and walk on. I don’t even need to shrug. I simply don’t care. What he was, as a person, I mean, what his shames and yearnings were, simply don’t matter.”

The Woman’s Room - Marilyn French

“The nuclear family must be destroyed, and people must find better ways of living together…. Whatever its ultimate meaning, the breakup of families now is an objectively revolutionary process…. No woman should have to deny herself any opportunities because of her special responsibilities to her children….”

“Functions of the Family,”
WOMEN: A Journal of Liberation, Fall, 1969 - Linda Gordon

“When a woman reaches orgasm with a man she is only collaborating with the patriarchal system, eroticizing her own oppression…”

- Sheila Jeffrys

“I believe that women have a capacity for understanding and compassion which man structurally does not have, does not have it because he cannot have it. He’s just incapable of it.”

Former Congresswoman - Barbara Jordan

“You grow up with your father holding you down and covering your mouth so another man can make a horrible searing pain between your legs.”

(Prominent legal feminist scholar; University of Michigan, & Yale.) - Catherine MacKinnon

“All sex, even consensual sex between a married couple, is an act of violence perpetrated against a woman.”

- Catherine MacKinnon

“We can’t destroy the inequities between men and women until we destroy marriage.”

From Sisterhood Is Powerful, (ed), 1970, p. 537 - Robin Morgan

“All men are good for is fu*king, and running over with a truck”

Statement made by A University of Maine Feminist Administrator, quoted by Richard Dinsmore, who brought a successful civil suit against the University in the amount of $600,000.

Peter C.
Apology excepted. It takes a very exceptional person to admit to aa mistake. You must be exceptional. I hope you have a great day.

Peter C. and Talli
I consider tmyself to have many so-called "feminist"points of view, such as fair rape laws, legal protections from domestic violence and murder, equal pay for equal work, sill-based evaluations when being considered for a job, etc., so I, for one, feel that you should say anything you like. I've heard it all, I knoe it makes alot, but not all, me such as yourself nervous, it even makes some women nervous.

There is alot of mythology about the women's movement, probably I react to it because I have considered myself and many of my friends part of that so when I hear people telling mehow I feel and what my attitudes are I get angry. As conservatives, and most likely Christians, you should know more than anybody that there are oceans of drivel and misinformation written about everything from global warming to Iraq to authorship of the bible to Christian history. It would seem to me that scholarship is better not when you start out with a view that you want to prove, look for the evidence that will make you idea seem true, but start objectively and then look at all the evidence.

But as I've said before, my ideas don't just concern women, they include men and I have always found that secure, intelligent, manly men are open and comfortable with my views.

These things happen!
Yes Lolo, not having read your earlier postings it seems I did jump to some premature conclusions.

My own postings were responses to certain statements of your own that are all too often made by feminists (some men are better at nuturing...etc.) - which they use to provide imagery to be aggressively imposed upon the whole of society as a 'Holy Grail' for their unrealisable fantasy of an androgynous Utopia.

I now realise this was not the context in which you were saying these things.

When contributing to a comment section of an online media article, and which already has fifty or sixty postings on it, I am sure that I can speak for most people when I say that there are occasions when you read certain statements, and, without reading the entire posting or the earlier postings by the same individual, automatically and instinctively assume where that person is coming from and respond accordingly. And, on the vast majority of occasions when you do this, you will indeed be right.

Everybody occasionally tries to cut corners. Sometimes you trip up. It was late at night here in the UK. LOL.

I apologise for the misunderstanding and any offence caused.

By the way Lolo - as far as the "...I threaten you. Good" finale to your last statement is concerned - I do not know exactly what you mean by this, because I now realise that you are, indeed, not a feminist.

But the vast majority of people, men and women, who are battling against the lunacy of feminism, and Left wing Liberalism generally, do indeed feel threatened. But in a way that has nothing to do with their gender.

They justifiably feel very frightened, as rational human beings, for the immediate and future stability and safety of their own society - on behalf of both themselves and, not least, their children.

And I am sure you would agree with that.

Feminists frequently, usually as a last resort when faced with the truth they loathe, distort the reality of these feelings and hurl them back at people in an attempt to belittle and undermine those who have confronted them.

All the best. Peter C. (UK).


Peter C.
Do you have no reading comprehension what so ever? I am not now nor have I ever been a feminist. I think you need to re-read some things. Good-Bye.

A complex of being threatened!
Roger Scruton, Professor of Aesthetics at Birkbeck College, London, once wrote that whenever feminists are confronted with the truth they are liable to become very hostile and that open and coherent debate with them becomes particularly difficult because their language tends to consist largely of jargon rather than meaningful discourse.

Lolo writes:-
"I have no idea why you decided to launch a personal assault on me but your ramblings make absolutely no sense what so ever. Your an idiot. You think that if you write like Vonnegaut that your smarter than everybody, news flash your not. If you don't think that mother's and father's don't mold society your a bigger idiot than you let on. For every rule there is an exception, you don't seem to see that because your incapable of it. For whatever reason I threaten you. Good".

In the context of what Professor Scruton was saying - thankyou, Lolo, for veryfing the truth of what I was saying.

Particularly the final words of your blithering diatribe:-

"For whatever reason I threaten you. Good".

My goodness - so often do those who confront the insanity of the modern women's movement find themselves on the receiving end of this particular petulant, cracked record, jargonistic missile?

It's the one in vogue for feminists at the moment isn't it Lolo.

BigGmoney
I wholeheartedly agree with you, BigG - I think it is really hard to be male in this society, and I mean that sincerely. For every guy who has some glamour job and tells people they should "do what they love" there are hundreds who are getting up before dark every day to make sure their families are cared for. People often get very sanctimonious about women who work, but often those jobs are a way of trying to lighten the load for the men they love. Feminist-haters think that all working women are bank executives and stock fund analysts that look like Diane Keaton, but the truth is that most women are also doing mundane jobs that are tedious and tiring. The difference is they have more opportunities to quit and stay home if they choose, unlike men. In my life I only occasionally worked part time, because I could afford to do so, but I was always aware that the freedom to quit any job I didn't like or decision to spend more time with the kids was made because my husband got up every morning and made it all possible. Fulfillment wasn't a word in his dictionary.

The thing is, because of the culture we were both locked into our roles - he couldn't have let himself not work to provide for all of us, even if I had that Bank President job, and I couldn't have spent 40 hours a week away from the children. In a way, our choices were deeply programmed inside of us.

Most men, I think, are happy to have their jobs because it enables them to do what their self-respect demands - provide for their own. But most of those jobs are spirit-draining, deadening endeavors that kill options.

Johnnyp writes:
Choices?
I love all this talk about the difficult choices women have...

Think about the choices men have. 1) be a man and work and support your family, and die of necessary; 2) be a looser (this includes all other options).

Right on Johnny! I don't remember the last time I had a choice in pretty much anything. Have you ever heard a man past the age of 21 asking any of these questions? Should I work or stay home? Should I work full or part time? If I take a leave from work, will my job still be there when I get back? Which of my many options will leave me feeling most fulfilled? Hmmmm.

I agree Johnny. Either work hard until you die or be labeled a loser and irresponsible. Those are the choices afforded to men. End of story.

Feminists-Can't Handle the Truth
jojo-

you are exposing your true self.

You said:

"I don't know why you have devoted years of your life to promoting the idea that feminists are nasty, vile people who personally want to see you castrated, Denis, and I don't need to know."

Where have I said this?

I said I have researched feminism for years. I have spread facts about feminism-verifiable facts. I can substantiate everything I say and have always done so. These hateful feminists are responsible for what they say and do-not me.

You are intellectually dishonest. When asked to provide proof equal to mine you reply by making obsurd exaggerated statements.

"The notion that feminists hate males the way Hitler hated Jews is just plain creepy, Denis. I think you have a problem, and I hope our paths never cross."

Since you can only relate as an emoting child your are exposing yourself as not only intellectually weak but very immature. You should read what I have seen written by feminists. You make a conclusion without seeing the facts that prove me right-you lack an open mind. I guess they were thinking of you when they came up with the term FemiNazi. You are a rather sad human being.

All I have done is provide actual documentation of hatred of men by feminists and you want to attack me!!

You have been married 42 years!!!

I thought you were about 19 y/o and in college conidering your posts. I actually feel sorry for you as you are a very angry miserable human being.

But I can't feel sorry for you-only happiness that I am not you.


Denis
I don't know why you have devoted years of your life to promoting the idea that feminists are nasty, vile people who personally want to see you castrated, Denis, and I don't need to know. But my point was that I can selectively quote people on any side of any issue, as I did, and some will be people who do not speak for a larger group and some who are just being quoted out of context. Also, it seems to me that some of these go pretty far back in time - is Andrea Dworkin even still alive? Why have you saved all this?

The notion that feminists hate males the way Hitler hated Jews is just plain creepy, Denis. I think you have a problem, and I hope our paths never cross.

As for me, I have involved myself with feminist issues for many years, including rape law, domestic violence awareness and law, etc., etc. I have also been happily married to a terrific guy for 42 years who is mentally healthy enough to really like women and not be threatened by their appeals for equal rights. I have also raised two bright, humane boys into adulthood, where they are now successful, happy husbands and wonderful fathers who were taught by me.

As for the legitimacy of the people I quoted, you may be interested to know that one of the longer quotes was something I copied from a column by Anne Coulter. I thought you guys thought she was definitely someone of credibility, what happened?


Hatred & Veracity
JoJo-

I have provided people of authority and influence including:

Author's of books used in Women's Studies courses throughout the U.S.-these textbooks have been frequently updated in revised print-and are used today. Most of these quotes can be found today in these working textbooks in any Women's Studies course.

An ssistant Dean of Students

Government Panel members

Magazine Editor's

Legal "scholars"

a U.S. Congresswoman

U.S. Presidential political campaign advisor's (in a relatively recent election cycle)

As I have provided people with authority of some type (e.g., political influence, college administrator etc.) or influence (authors of books used throughout Women's Studies courses today and editors of magazines)I have to expect the same from you as well, and also references to verify the veracity of your claims. What you have provided does not meet the same crieria that I expect of myself-meaning people of authority and influence of an equal magnitude with verifiable references. For all I know you pulled your comments from some blog.

If in fact you pulled these from a blog I would expect that it would take you 5 minutes to accomplish. If you are proud of your accomplishment than so be it. It is not an issue worthy of my time. But in any case, I have researched feminism at length for years and have read a huge volume of material. Good research and investigation takes time and only those willing to be truthsekers should take on the task. I can most certainly provide a very large volume of feminist material that is of the most
egregious in terms of mindless hatred of a segment of society (males). It is up there as a classification with Hitler's hatred of Jews. It is very vile stuff that no sane person could relate to.





Denis
Here's a compilation of sentences I have copied from right-wing posting on this very blog and post from time to time to make a point.

Based on your reasoning, the following writings would prove that conservatives are unbalanced, rage-filled, evil people and quoting the sentiments of a few is a "good way to judge" them.

Here goes:

Do us a favor you worthless piece of dog excrement and go be the guest of honor at a single car fatality, Liberals want mass starvation and human devastation, it is worthy of pointing out the crass stupidity and immoral standard of the liberal left, Or if you're a Liberal and you're simply insistent upon your own slow suicide, please speed it up with a pistol in the mouth, and stop insisting that the rest of us have to be dragged into that same cold damp grave with you, Hooray for disease ridden illegal scum getting top quality health care while our brave veterans rot. Another reason to shoot illegals, kill them. bring back drawing and quartering PUBLICLY for these scum, there is no punishment severe enough,
you fascist. You should be ashamed of yourself , You represent everything that's wrong with America, Here's one for ya: Why don't you go back to the fridge, get another box of bon-bons, stuff your gullet and wash it down with petrouli (sp) oil, Fagg_t, fagg_t, fagg_t, Another reason to shoot illegals, They never give up their diabolic pursuit of evil. It must be in their blood or they must be possessed , If each of us, the properly oriented Americans were to go out and kill just one Kassandraplex, Kimberly or liberalgood(bad)man America would be a beautiful place once again.


etc., etc.

Your collection looks like it must have taken you alot fo time, how old were those Ms. magazines?

Mine took me about an hour.

Misandrist Women
A good way to discover if a woman is a
man-hating feminist is to present the facts and watch how they react. Typically they throw around accusations loosely such as "misogynist", "hate-filled", and so on. It is they who are misandrist and hate-filled and who wish to blunt debate by creating a strawman with these accusations so as to divert the discussion from the truth and facts to one where the accused is to spend all his time against the accusations.

Men-do not fall for this tactic.


Feminism is a Hate Movement and always has been:

NOW HERE IS SOME REAL HATRED....FROM FEMINSTS.

The following hatred of men has been spoken, written, and taught these last 40+ years. Here's what a REAL hate movement looks like:

“I want to see a man beaten to a bloody pulp with a high-heel shoved in his mouth, like an apple in the mouth of a pig.”
Ice And Fire - Andrea Dworkin”Men who are unjustly accused of rape can sometimes gain from the experience.”

Vassar College. Assistant Dean of Students - Catherine Comin

“All men are rapists and that’s all they are.”

Author; (later, advisor to Al Gore’s Presidential Campaign.) - Marilyn French

“I feel that ‘man-hating’ is an honorable and viable political act, that the oppressed have a right to class-hatred against the class that is oppressing them.”

Ms. Magazine Editor. - Robin Morgan

“I claim that rape exists any time sexual intercourse occurs when it has not been initiated by the woman, out of her own genuine affection and desire.”

Ms. Magazine Editor. - Robin Morgan

“‘To call a man an animal is to flatter him; he’s a machine, a walking d*ldo.”

Scum Manifesto - Valerie Solanas

“(Rape) is nothing more or less than a conscious process of intimidation by which all men keep all women in a state of fear”

Against Our Will p.6. - Susan Brownmiller

“We are taught, encouraged, moulded by and lulled into accepting a range of false notions about the family. As a source of some of our most profound experiences, it continues to be such an integral part of our emotional lives that it appears beyond criticism. Yet hiding from the truth of family life leaves women and children vulnerable.”

- Canadian Panel on Violence Against Women

” How will the family unit be destroyed? …[T]he demand alone will throw the whole ideology of the family into question, so that women can begin establishing a community of work with each other and we can fight collectively. Women will feel freer to leave their husbands and become economically independent, either through a job or welfare.”

In “Female Liberation” - Roxanne Dunbarr

“Men are rapists, batterers, plunderers, killers; these same men are religious prophets, poets, heroes, figures of romance, adventure, accomplishment, figures ennobled by tragedy and defeat. Men have claimed the earth, called it “Her”. Men ruin Her. Men have airplanes, guns, bombs, poisonous gases, weapons so perverse and deadly that they defy any authentically human imagination.”

Pornography: Men Possessing Women - Andrea Dworkin

“The traditional flowers of courtship are the traditional flowers of the grave, delivered to the victim before the kill. The cadaver is dressed up and made up and laid down and ritually violated and consecrated to an eternity of being used.”

- Andrea Dworkin

“Heterosexual intercourse is the pure, formalized expression of contempt for women’s bodies.”

- Andrea Dworkin

“The cultural institutions which embody and enforce those interlocked aberrations - for instance, law, art, religion, nation-states, the family, tribe, or commune based on father-right - these institutions are real and they must be destroyed.”

- Andrea Dworkin

“My feelings about men are the result of my experience. I have little sympathy for them. Like a Jew just released from Dachau, I watch the handsome young Nazi soldier fall writhing to the ground with a bullet in his stomach and I look briefly and walk on. I don’t even need to shrug. I simply don’t care. What he was, as a person, I mean, what his shames and yearnings were, simply don’t matter.”

The Woman’s Room - Marilyn French

“The nuclear family must be destroyed, and people must find better ways of living together…. Whatever its ultimate meaning, the breakup of families now is an objectively revolutionary process…. No woman should have to deny herself any opportunities because of her special responsibilities to her children….”

“Functions of the Family,”
WOMEN: A Journal of Liberation, Fall, 1969 - Linda Gordon

“When a woman reaches orgasm with a man she is only collaborating with the patriarchal system, eroticizing her own oppression…”

- Sheila Jeffrys

“I believe that women have a capacity for understanding and compassion which man structurally does not have, does not have it because he cannot have it. He’s just incapable of it.”

Former Congresswoman - Barbara Jordan

“You grow up with your father holding you down and covering your mouth so another man can make a horrible searing pain between your legs.”

(Prominent legal feminist scholar; University of Michigan, & Yale.) - Catherine MacKinnon

“All sex, even consensual sex between a married couple, is an act of violence perpetrated against a woman.”

- Catherine MacKinnon

“We can’t destroy the inequities between men and women until we destroy marriage.”

From Sisterhood Is Powerful, (ed), 1970, p. 537 - Robin Morgan

“All men are good for is fu*king, and running over with a truck”

Statement made by A University of Maine Feminist Administrator, quoted by Richard Dinsmore, who brought a successful civil suit against the University in the amount of $600,000.

Men have created pretty much everything we see, and in fact have created civilization itself. You wake up every morning in a house designed and built by men. You drive in a car designed and built by men, on a road designed and built by men. The institutions of government, the legal system, the protective services such as the police, the military overwhelmingly done by men throughout the ages. We ave great works of philosophy throughout the ages, literature, science, all due to men, men, men. I could go on and on. There are bad and good in both men and women. But all the good things we take for granted, being there when we need them, have overwhelmingly been brought to humanity by men. Even life itself could not begin without the unique contribution of men.

Men give women in this country many advantages and privileges that are very unfair to men. These were put in place largely by men. Let's look at the vote. During the early years of the birth of America only land owners could vote. These were mostly men. But most other men could not vote either-those without land. Women got the vote put in the Constitution BECAUSE OF MEN. It was men who put it in.

The US is currently too focused on its main post-modern domestic policy, i.e., providing for the emotional, physical & financial well-being of its virtuous female electorate: artificially enhanced lifespan, no-fault divorce (80% of divorces attributed to women: alimony, child custody, paternity fraud, etc.), affirmative action/quotas, Female-only technical scholarships, (e.g. Intel), VAWA, welfare state, Title IX, taxpayer-funded abortion on demand in perpetuity. Plus a progressive taxation system (top 50% (majority=MEN) pay 96% of all income taxes) has been put in place by the Democrat party that penalizes men while financing said female-specific welfare state, abortion industry, divorce industry, child custody monopoly, etc. What a fine society radical feminists and their duplicitous metrosexual males with their misdirected sense of chivalry have created for the minimally franchised, expendable male taxpayer.

Only in America can a moronic shock jock be fired for saying something ignorant about women. Only in America can these same women reach sainthood status overnight simply for being insulted. Only in America can three young men have their lives turned upside down simply by word alone of a woman, and have the government (Nifong) itself go on a reckless campaign to destroy these men without a shred of credible evidence, costing each family over one million dollars in legal expenses. Only in America can 80+ university members at Duke, and newspapers, and cable news channels all over the counry go on an electronic lynching in this country one minute after this woman makes her false accusation. And when innocence is given back there is no sainthood for these men. They got something different from the legal system than CAPT Nowak, Mary Winkler, Andrea Yates, Debra LaFave, etc. (this list is long and growing longer).

Feminism was about allowing upper-middle class women the luxury of "equality in outcome" (e.g., "comparable worth") vice "equality of opportunity" in the world of men while retaining their domestic power-base. Gender is course a social construct when it applies to the traditional world of men, but women should have the privilege of maintaining their traditional "matriarchal" power monopoly ("pregnancy should be a super ability" ) because they have an innate "nurturing" nature. Speaking as member of the selfless, "disposable" gender, somehow I just can't muster up a whole lot of sympathy for women who complain about their lives in America. Grow up.



Peter
I have no idea why you decided to launch a personal assault on me but your ramblings make absolutely no sense what so ever. Your an idiot. You think that if you write like Vonnegaut that your smarter than everybody, news flash your not. If you don't think that mother's and father's don't mold society your a bigger idiot than you let on. For every rule there is an exception, you don't seem to see that because your incapable of it. For whatever reason I threaten you. Good.

Just a thought...
Feminism - the not so gentle art of making everything someone else's fault Well actually, men's fault.

Can I opt-in to the 'no responsibility for my own actions' crowd? Oh yah, I have a conscience and Christian morals, darn!

Men sacrifice too!
I think we should also remember it's a man's detriment as well that he works rather than stays at home.

I don't know any man who has a heart and would rather be at work than at home playing catch or wrestling or teaching his kids to cook or cleaning up after them. My own Dad told me that he really missed that opportunity to spend some more time with the family. That's why they pay us to do work!

I'm sure we've all seen that Father who never saw his children; worked so hard that he ruined his health and his relations with his family and became alone and bitter with no one who truly understood him.

I'm not trying to say it's easy to be a stay at home parent- it's patently not- but it has payoffs and advantages that men almost never get to choose. How many men are "lauded" for staying at home and looking after the kids? None! Rather they get to be called sissies and wimps. What about the man who can't choose to stay at home because he HAS to work? Does he complain?

The corporate and working world is a vast, impersonal cog machine. It takes people in and spits out broken shells of men and women. We choose to throw ourselves into that machine for a chance to better ourselves and for money, just as we choose to opt out, to go and focus on our families.

Whatever choice we make, it has to be respected. But you cannot claim that one gender is being oppressed when the other side doesn't have much choice either.

In response to JoJo
I have seen you post responses to two columns in the last few days, and your argument was the same in both: since the author fails to provide examples and sources, the supposed issues about which they write must not exist. The articles must, therefore, be strawmen arguments.

This conclusion, however, does not logically follow from the observations.

In this case, a moment's search of Yahoo for 'women extreme jobs' provided links to *at least three* pieces in which the writers' views were essentially that characterized by Ms. Basham: that it is unfair or 'an obstacle' that many women's own unwillingness (due to their own higher priorities) to volunteer for the sorts of extreme hours that men often find welcome, results in them not being as highly rewarded. And that it is Business's responsibility to somehow 'fix' this problem.
Please, before claiming 'strawman argument', take one moment to see if the problem DOES exist, despite the author's failure to properly source his or her claims.

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2006/12/02/women_and_the_new_extreme_jobs/

http://www.diversityworking.com/weblog/?p=44

http://harvardbusinessonline.hbsp.harvard.edu/b01/en/common/item_detail.jhtml?id=R0612B

Poster misses the point
will,

Neither of the examples you provided has anything to do with the point of the article, which is that many WOMEN seem to be deciding they really don't want to work like men after all.

The second point of the article is that, instead of acknowledging the legitimacy of this choice by many women, feminists, communists, and other liberals have constructed hopelessly contorted arguments that make sense only if we start by presuming that the objective is not the pursuit of happiness, but a workplace with thoroughly egalitarian outcomes from a gender standpoint.

Nobody at TH objects to your female doctor friend supporting her hubby, and those of us who object to your lesbian couple raising a child aren't doing so out of opposition a woman supporting her family.

Is your life really so boring that you have to create these straw dogs to fight?

Teenage prophet
As an 18-year-old high school senior I was caught smirking in class by some of my female friends and classmates who were discussing how much they would prefer to have a "career" than raise a family. When they demanded an explanation I simply said "The only reason you girls think you want a career is because you've never had a full time job."

Now, according to Oprah, I was right in two-thirds of their cases.

Basham does a great job exposing the upside-down "logic" of feminism vis-a-vis the workplace.

"The “extreme work model”—high level, high paying employment that requires 60 or more hours a week— is unjust to women, “[forcing them] out of these very good jobs much more readily than men,” says Sylvia Ann Hewlett, author of a study on extreme jobs for the Center for Work/Life Policy."

Um, Ann, excuse me but, whatever happened to "equal pay for equal work"?

Or how about this little gem?

"Not so, say feminist organizations who claim that reforms like flextime and more paid leave are necessary if women are to compete for the best positions."

Flex time? In an "extreme" job position? Excuse me (again), but when you are working 60 to 80 hours a week you have already "flexed" your time as much as it can flex. What are you gonna do? Come in at 5:35 AM instead of 5:30?

And "paid leave" already exists. It's called a "Vacation". Morons.

These idiotic notions are examples why feminists should never be allowed to run anything and we should never take their advice.


A male perspective
As a bachelor who looks forward to getting married someday, one thing I'd really like to be able to provide to my wife is the opportunity to stay home and raise our children full time.

Where I live, two-income families have helped to drive housing prices into the stratosphere. I'm not sure how I'll manage to pull that dream off.

Raising a child properly is far more important than anything I've done in my professional life to date.

thinkwell
Women haven't been in high-risk jobs long enough to catch up with the mortality stats, but I have noticed a much higher number of stressed out, high blood pressure and heart attacks coming to women who work like men.

And tomorrow night I head off to the Lone Star Grand Prix, where my chances of being run over by a Panoz exiting the garage are exactly the same as any man except probably a photographer who knows which way to jump and how fast. It won't be too much longer until a woman driving a racing car is seriously injured or killed. There are so few of them, and today the odds are pretty low for that reason alone. I predict, and so do many others, that Milka Duno whose husband bought her an Indy 500 drive this year in a car she has never driven at all, much less on a speedway, may well be the first.

Give us some time to catch up. We'll gradually die in manly professions the same way as men do.

Lolo wishes to 'remold' human life.
Lolo writes:-
"If it is better for the male to stay home and the female to work then by all means do that. I have met a few women that really are not as good at nurturing as their husbands. You have to do what ever fits you and your spouse the best and will be also the most beneficial. I prefer not to let society mold me. I would much rather mold society".

A verse from the bible truly inspired by, and written for, the childlike fantasies of empty, brainwashed people.

The essence of all human societies is the creation of, and reflects the inherent nature of humanity. That has always been the case since the beginning of human history. And, since the beginning of human history, any culture that has ever attempted to thwart that eternal truth has badly damaged itself (its people and its future), and has often faded away into oblivion. When such politically motivated and inhuman fantasies have provoked and caused war, those societies, over a shorter period of time, have ended up smashed, broken and deeply regretful.

The microscope of naive and narcissistic unreality through which people like Lolo choose to view the world provides them with a veiled overview of life that is utterly unreal. Such people scoop up and place upon their quasi-religious altars those suitable examples they find largely on the fringe of human life - and attempt, later, to splash the whole of society with their idyllic, but distorted dreams.

A very simple analogy, Lolo, is all that is needed to undermine your pitiful assertion that some men are better and more willing to nuture the very young than some women - and its corresponding relevance to what this means for our potential to mold society, at will, into what we desire.

If you take a thousand human beings Lolo, some of the women will be taller than some of the men. But most of the men will be taller than most of the women. And, even if, as is the case, the functioning of the world, and its survival, did not depend upon some form of strange, apocalyptical basketball league, however much you wished it, the culture in which you live will be molded by what we are.
In the long term, it always shall be thus.

And to pretend otherwise is potentially suicidal.


Rla et.al.
I'm not a lit teacher - the comment was a reference to the lit teacher we have been watching on TV who was alarmed at the hate-filled rantings of her crazy, psycho student.

What amazes me about the ways in which people write on this subject, is that they make up all this stuff about what "feminists" want, what they say, what they stand for. It's as if they think that it's some kind of organization, with a Queen at the head of it and a standing army. It's so delusional, and it reinforces my notion that conservatives love larger-than-life enemies, like Godzilla because they love to play victim, and love to think of themselves as Davids in a world of Goliaths.

Get a grip, folks.

Badger
You're right. Most women are not in professional jobs, they're in jobs that are more accomodating to their family's needs. Funny thing about life, it really is pretty darned ordinary, isn't it? We women are the ones who discriminate in favor of our families. I've held part-time work over time while kids were in school but have since decided to go back to school myself. This because in 6 short years our youngest will be 18 and I want to be able to do something other than decorating cookies for cookie bouquets, which is not something that can actually earn a living even though I was very good at it. My daughter sees too that being home with her and her older siblings is best for everyone, part-time work while they're all in school can keep Mom in touch with the adult world, and college later in life can be even better because of the perspective acquired.


Working Women
The vast majority of women are not in exciting, entertaining or challenging jobs. They are working in retail, clerical positions or other mundane jobs. Do the feminists really think that these women are "having it all" in the working world? Let's see...work at Wal-mart everyday or stay home with my kids...Many women work because they have to, others because they want to buy all of the stuff that they think they need. While others, work because they are single with kids and are the only source of income. God bless the mothers who can and choose to stay home with their children. Our Nation needs them.

rlaTEXAS and dyerje
rlaTEXAS: For what it's worth, I'm also a college English teacher. Great literature, as I understand it, celebrates the Individual rather than the Collective, and I endeavor with all my might to view my students as individuals, each of whom will put what I teach to his/her own unique use. So we don't come out of a cookie cutter. We're not all the same. I'm sorry you had a rotten experience with your lit prof, but don't let that experience sour you on literature itself. Get Dr. Elizabeth Kantor's "The Politically Incorrect Guide to English and American Literature"; she actually guides disillusioned students to becoming their own best teachers.

Sorry to get off-topic, but I do feel compelled to defend my job, often, thanks to the crowd of Collectivists who make us look bad. I have a job that's worth doing; however, lots of people are doing it badly, and that's the tragedy. All ye within the sound of my voice: Do not let your justified disgruntlement with indoctrinary English profs lead you to become FICTION-BASHERS! I HATE those! (We conservative literature lovers get it from both sides: Collectivist indoctrinators on the Left, Fiction-bashers on the Right. Both extremes are repugnant, and cleaning up the mess they make is part of my job.)

dyerje: thanks for completely getting what I've been saying about the Internet Revolution. We really ARE doppelgangers, I'd say.

Not just a "women's issue"
Pamela gets at a really important aspect of the "opt-out" phenomenon, which is that it is changing our economy.

I prefer to say that it's changing our economy BACK to the more family-oriented home industry and agricultural economies that have prevailed everywhere throughout most of human history. The industrial revolution that brought us the modern idea of impersonal capital, employer, and laborer is actually a brief blip on the landscape of economic history.

Our current concepts of how individuals act, economically, is entirely tied up in industrial-era organization, in which "workers" earn wages and consume, whereas others -- owners, employers, coupon-clippers -- "invest" and hold wealth. Indeed, government economists study and analyze everything, from inflation and the CPI to the optimum interest rate -- based on this model.

But the truth is that people who leave the worker paradigm are NOT opting out of participation in the economy. They are merely switching roles. Instead of functioning as specialized "workers," as defined by the industrial-era model, they go on to become small-business owners, creative entrepreneurs, and wealth managers (which is exactly what anyone who takes care of a home -- almost all Americans' biggest investment over a lifetime -- is).

Of course, the biggest economic contribution of all is cultivating good citizens -- raising children. Of far more importance than specific work skills to America's economic health is having citizens who know how to do things like respect an employer, deal honestly with everyone, take risks prudently, control their own spending, and pay off their debts. NO ONE learns these things in school.

Liberating more and more people from the treadmill of "jobs" -- that tie them down to occupying specific locations 8-15 hours a day -- and from narrow, limited ideas of compensation and economic value, is a good thing.

If you love your actual work, and the industrial-era worker model is merely a convenience for you -- an organized method of matching up what you love doing with people who value what you do -- awesome.

But as a concept in the absract, it's a limiting factor on any economy. God bless the women, and men, who are looking beyond it.

JoJo, AudiR10, LoLo, stbmom
JoJo: You, and your type of "teacher"/indoctrinator, are why I was not an English major. Considered it until I had my survey lit classes - scary!!! Even as liberal as the gov't dept was, they were willing to accept us as thinking beings with legit opinions that were contrary to theirs. The Lit prof wanted regurgitation without thought.

AudiR10 - thanks to you and your generation for your push!!

LoLo & stbmom - congrats on figuring out what you want and going after it - staying at home, homeschooling, etc!!

Demosthenes ...
Amen! Your posts are spot on.

Got irony?
Got irony?

In the mid-1980's when I was living the suburban dream in a New Jersey bedroom community, a young professional couple moved in next door.

He commuted to work in NYC everyday, while she gestated and nurtured their first born. But by the time the baby daughter was 6 months old, in came the au pere from Ireland, and back to her professional full-time job went Mom.

What was Mom's day job? She worked for a big pharmaceutical company as a marketing executive for their infant formula, so that more moms could leave their infants at home with au pere's while they went off to their executive jobs!

Thinkwell
I challenge you to find just one piece of proof that feminists have said that men and women are interchangeable.

You said it: "In spite of feminist mantra to the contrary, men and woman are not 100 percent interchangeable."

So if you said, you must be able to back it up, or is it just more woman-hating smoke?

Choices?
I love all this talk about the difficult choices women have...

Think about the choices men have. 1) be a man and work and support your family, and die of necessary; 2) be a looser (this includes all other options).

Funny Feminists
Great article!

Feminists make me laugh. The mere fact that they complain about EVERY LITTLE reality they are uncomfortable with proves to me all the more how different we are from men. The men in my life who work hard and love their families never complain about their jobs.

Women - we can't have it all at once. Love and be with your babies while you can. You can always work later. They don't need new a new car or fancy clothes - they need you!

thinkwell
As to the feminist track, most men don't stay home, because in my view, God did not make them that way. The libs and feminists can cry all they want about that, but nature is nature. If it were so men would be having babies. Women automatically have a more nuanced attention to detail than men do and I think it is built in and goes with womanhood and motherhood. One thing I did notice almost the minute I gave birth is I did suddenly have eyes in the back of my head. I think you get where I am going with this. If we really want to increase the wealth among everyone in this country and change the track of society the only way to really do it is to dramatically lower taxes. Just thought I would throw that little tid bit in even though you didn't ask! LOL!

thinkwell
We did thoroughly discuss that. I think you have to do what is best for your family and what fits your moral philosophy. In our case, for me, making money and large fancy houses has never been my biggest priority. A career is not what fullfills me or defines me. If I won the lotto tommorrow I would not run out and buy a mansion. Career was more important part of fullfillment for my husband than myself. Since we all come from different backgrounds and have had very different things impact our lives for some people making it in the business world is more important or more of a priority. I didn't go to college so much for a career as I went for an education. I love to study still to this day and read and take occassional classes still to this day. My husband with alot of hard work and support from myself(yes he freely admits this) has been able to advance his career and education. He also though has given up alot of personal time to be a good father as well. As he puts it "Time enough for sleeping when your dead!" Another view that had the biggest imput for me as well is that I am the Mom! Women don't just control sex they also have been entrusted with the future generations which to me is the future itself. I freely admit that I am not a feminist. I just don't buy alot of that junk because for the glass will always be half full, not half empty. There are ways to work from home. I now do some consulting part time and it supplements our income. It will never come first however over my family. If it is better for the male to stay home and the female to work then by all means do that. I have met a few women that really are not as good at nurturing as their husbands. You have to do what ever fits you and your spouse the best and will be also the most beneficial. I prefer not to let society mold me. I would much rather mold society.

An inconvenient truth
JoJo,

I am a firm believer in letting the chips fall where they may. If you equate presenting facts (even non politically correct ones) as misogynistic, then shame on you. We are a dimorphic species. In spite of feminist mantra to the contrary, men and woman are not 100 percent interchangeable. That doesn't mean one is better than the other - we each have our own strengths, weaknesses and unique contributions to make. But the facts are what they are.

The sexual equality pendulum has swung well beyond the center point. Good men and women will recognize that and do what they can to bring it gently back to its natural resting point so that it doesn't bash someone on the back swing.

Think well - see clearly. :)

Don't get sucked in
"a busy mom juggle the demands of her husband, children, and—sometimes—her job"

My only quibble with the entire article is the object in this phrase: "demands".

I have to ask if this is a buy-in to the feminist thinking that husbands, children, and jobs suck the life out of women (AKA oppress women).

If we hold marriage and family in the right esteem, then the functions of family roles aren't demands. Any parent who has patiently answered a curious toddler asking, "Why?" fourteen times in a row knows that fulfilling the "demands" on a parent are true love. Love must be freely given if it is love.

I'm joining also
I am a professional woman gradually "opting out". I hired a nanny and I work from home 1/2 days. So, I only have to be fully away from home about 5/6 hours a day - max. My children get to be in our home. When my son was in daycare, he was there 6 hours a day - there were other kids there 11 hours a day. You could tell whose child belong to whom.
Since we are going to homeschool - I will be leaving my position completely in around 4 years. We are giving ourselves time to build our our business and get our finances in order.
I don't think it is anyone elses burden to allow me to be home with my 3 kids - it is mine. While I am blessed to have a position I can work from home mostly I know that isn't the case for many. But life is about hard choices and we can't always have it all.
My husband and I were talking last night (we have time to do that since he works flexible hours and is home at a very reasonable time in the early afternoon - so he can also be a father) about how most of the problems we see (divorce, violence, etc.) are because kids are NEVER home with their parents. They go from daycaer to school and see mom and dad for maybe 2 or 3 hours a day - 5 days a week. Oh wait, homework takes up some of that time! When do kids learn how to be members of a family, learn how to run a household, learn personal finances, learn how to be a husband/wife or even a responsible adult. Just look at school tragedies - they bring in "grief counselors" for the children - totally acting as if these kids don't have parents that can help them through the tough roads of life. Society has completely seperated us from our kids to where we are nothing more than breeders of future tax payers.
Many women are finding out that is NOT what we want for our families and that our kids would rather have a mother than a plasma TV.
I will have to admit - its not easy walking away from six figures. But I have 3 kids and there is no amount of money in the world more important to me that those 3. Also, working long hours doesn't leave time to be a wife either (or a husband for men that work crazy hours). Even still - how can you even scratch out a moment of peace for yourself. The hustle and bustle is for the birds and many people are finding out the more money simply makes you pay higher taxes until you get well into the six figures. It's not worth it folks, really!

Question to the wise one
Lolo,

You were faced with a choice where to do right by your child something had to be let go (and you did the right thing, in my opinion). My question to you is why didn't you and your husband choose for your husband to let go of his job?

By feminist theory this should happen much more often than it does (at least 50-50 in fact). My guess is that, not counting such things as involuntary unemployment, by nature this sort of reverse arrangement would occur maybe 5 to 15 percent of the time.

If it isn't too private, can you look past all the PC social expectations into your heart of hearts and explain why you two may the choice you did?

Thanks

Audi10, thank you for your honesty
I wish more women were like you. I bailed as soon as I got pregnant, making it clear that I wanted nothing to do with further promotions and commitments. For a few years, my husband stayed home and I worked but that stunk. Its really unnatural on both sides. We were both unhappy. We've switched and all is right with the world. My husband and my kids are my career and I do it quite well, if I may say so myself. The boys are on the highest honors in school with many extra-curricular activities and accomplishments. They have good study habits and clear goals. My home is clean, organized, warm and inviting, decorated very nicely. We all eat together and discuss the day. Our faith is the rock and foundation of our family structure. These are all CHOICES that I and my husband have made for the betterment of our family and, as a result, society.

Again, thank you for your honesty and for respecting women like me who made our decisions and are very happy with them.

Demosthenes, Thinkwell
I am tired of reading your women-hating, female-bashing threads. If you want a boogy-man, why don't you try to find something a little more credible?

If you were my Eng. Lit. students, I would report you to the Dean before you were able to take your hate-filled, misogynistic ideas and take out anybody with a womb.

Mr. Marx
"Calling the corporate world 'exploitative' to women, Hirshman says its time to reconsider whether Marx was on to something. “[Women] have to work much longer hours than they like; longer than they think anyone should have to work,” she writes. Rather than seeing this as justifiable reason for some to draw back from the workplace, Hirshman believes the U.S. needs to adopt a more socialist model."

The U.S. needs to adopt a more socialist model? What we have here is a leftist calling for a typical leftist response to the free-market system. Hirshman and her buddies have been calling for this since, well, since the days of Mr. Marx. Gosh, what a novelty. And they call themselves "progressives." Interesante. Muy interesante.


Who REALLY pays for the fantasy?
First of all, virtually all the organized self-appointed, media-anointed advocates for "oppressed groups" are actually leftist organizations that push far-left agendas in the name of those for whom they ostensibly speak. Very often they will advocate things that are not only very leftist, "liberal," and big-government oriented, but have no rational connection with the grievances of the group they claim to represent.

Linda Hirschfield may not speak for an actual organization, but her views as reported are perfectly consonant with the general tone of American radical feminism and all the other varieties of victimology as well. It's always free enterprise, and the concept that people should be paid for what they do & how well they do it, that is at fault when some artificial ideal standard they made up, such as there-must-be equal distributions of women in all occupations, conflicts with reality. I do not for one moment put it past NOW & the other radfemmes to want to enact some form of Marxism.

However, I think we know how these things play out in the real world right now. Superwoman takes the fast track to the demanding hi-paying hi-responsibility position. Perhaps she even gets a little boost past similarly qualified males to buff the firm's gender stats a bit. Then the alarm goes off on her biological clock, & she turns up in the condition as old and common to women as life. Inevitably, there's going to be a certain amount of maternity leave, cutting back on hours and workload, and frequent absences. Then, there will be some amount of 'family leave' sooner or later as she realizes she wants to & should be with the young'un for hours and days. What happens to her job and position?

Well, as the saying goes, if the company can do without you for 12 weeks, it can do without your position at all. If it can't, well, others have to take up the slack. Let's say she ends up cutting back for 6 months and then taking a year off. Somebody else has to pick up some of the work while Supermom-2-be takes sick days and prenatal medical appointmts & whatnot. She's getting paid in full (nemmine benefits!) for doing less, while others must do more for no more compensation. If she then takes an extended unpaid leave (but intends to return), either her position responsibilities & workload has to be divided among others, or someone has to be placed in her position temporarily.

Even given that while she's unpaid her salary is now available to pay others, it's still not a simple matter of "getting someone else." Who is going to take a position, qualified to do so, knowing that they almost certainly will have to relinquish it again in a year? What about the salaried coworkers, many of them men supporting families, who must work longer and harder to make up for the unfillable vacancy in the line-up, thus straining their own earning potential and time for their own families? Perhaps some of them were even passed over in Superwoman's favor. What do they think when the headhunters call seeking to lure them to full-time permanent positions of their own like Superwoman's in other firms?

Assuming she really was talented, highly educated, and productive, wouldn't her absence actually damage the company's profitability and viability? Potentially, then all her co-workers stand to lose big. To compensate someone qualified for stepping in and fully picking up the reins, the company needs to either pay big bucks for a position understood to be temporary, or be ready to offer basically her fulltime permanent job to someone else, possibly a qualified man with a family to support.

Then, as the radfemmes would have it, she's supposed to be entitled to waltz back in and not just pick up where she left off in terms of pay, bennies, & seniority, but actually where she would presumably be had she never gotten pregnant or took leave. Everyone who busted their tails and/or lost opportunities due to this episode have lost out. Not only men (and women who have no desire to have children), but also the stay-at-home mothers and the children, suffer to facilitate this supposed "right" on the part of Superwoman to have her career and maternity cakes and eat them both.

I am one
I am one of those proffessional women who opted out. As difficult sometimes as it has been I have no regrets. It boils down to this. When something bad happens to your child, or they become an unrecognizable space alien as adults who does not have any values, let alone share yours, you have no one to blame but yourself. All the woulda, shoulda, and coulda's in the world will not change that outcome, let alone all the hindsight. Simply put you will be stuck with the results and no way to change them.

JoJo: Really?
“The column is long on generalizations, but there isn't one specific example of "feminists" trying to subvert American culture..”

What alternate reality do you hail from? Apparently the female-chauvinists have been rather successful:
+Legislated sexism:
-$20B Violence Against Women Act (All Men=bad/ All women=victim),
-Affirmative action/quotas, etc.
+ “No- Fault Divorce”: women apply for 80% of all divorces while utilizing children as financial assets IOT leverage the largest amount of de facto Alimony: i.e., child support. Now we have women committing paternity fraud and forcing their husbands to pay for some else’s children. Now we have mothers committing 70% of all child abuse.
+ Free abortion on demand (funded by majority male taxpayers): Now we have women using abortion as de facto birth control that results in 25 % of all children currently conceived being aborted for pure convenience.




3rd wave Feminism
“First Wave” Feminism was ostensibly sold as “equality of opportunity” which is reasonable to any fair-minded individual. When that didn’t produce enough engineers & scientist to suit the feminists, “Second wave” Feminism became all about allowing upper-middle class women the luxury of “equality in outcome” (e.g., Affirmative Action, quotas, Title IX set asides and other forms of Fascism) in the world of men while retaining their domestic power-base. Gender is course a social construct when it applies to the traditional world of men, but women should have the privilege of maintaining their traditional “matriarchal” power monopoly because they have an innate “nurturing” nature endemic to a uniquely “esoteric” female insight into reality in general. “Third wave” feminism is all about “female-chauvinism” in the guise of gender neo-marxism:
+ “Pregnancy should be seen as a super ability” that should be compensated/subsidized by society rather than a disability,
+ “Comparable worth”: Nurses (female dominated profession) should be paid the same as Engineers (male dominated profession)
+ Advancement & salary should not be commensurate w/ hours worked in a profession, especially if you're female, etc.

But speaking as member of the “disposable” gender, I’m all in favor of an ERA (“Equal Responsibility Amendment”) which should contain the following items:

(a) Women are legally held accountable for their actions (e.g., CAPT Nowak, Mary Winkler, Andrea Yates, Debra LaFave, etc.) like their male counterparts;
(b) Current paternal court system is overhauled to be gender-neutral WRT divorce, alimony, child custody & child support
(c) The law mandates automatic paternity tests for all children born in the U.S. (NOW will fight this tooth & nail)
(d) Women accept the consequences of engaging relations w/ men with whom they really don’t want to have children rather than using abortion as de facto birth control (apparently 20% of U.S. children conceived are currently aborted- pretty pathetic behavior on the part of the “morally superior” gender);
(d) Women are prosecuted for committing the most despicable form of domestic abuse: PATERNITY FRAUD (we will need to build more prisons because this will apply to at least 10% of the female population)
(d) The U.S. government spends as much $ financing male specific disease research as it does female specific research (e.g., prostrate vice breast cancer research) which includes the average life-span disparity (men on average lived longer that women prior to the 20th century)
(d) Women comprise 50% of mining, construction & other work-related deaths (not likely since the lives of women are more valuable than men), e.g., “poor” women should be taken off the welfare rolls IOT be given the opportunity to die along side poor men since gender is a social construct;
(e) Women work 50% of all overtime;
(f) Women pay 59% of all income taxes (59 cents on every dollar collected by the federal government goes to pay for entitlements that almost solely benefit WOMEN)
(g) Men are accorded the opportunity to stay at home to raise their children without being subjected to the usual misandrist “shaming language”, nor losing their home & children
(h) The Social Security Retirement age for women should be extended to 72 IOT compensate for their artificially enhanced life spans;
(i) “Chivalry” (i.e., Pro-female sexism) will be treated as a felony; and
(h) Women do 50% of all standard dirty/analytically-challenging male domestic chores: e.g., replace/re-wire dishwasher, move 8 tons of river rock around the pool area, repair sprinkler piping, inspect crawl space, rip out & replace crawl space door, administer home WLAN, etc.

Most feminists, like children, see rights without the associated responsibilities. They see a “Patriarchy” w/o acknowledging the power of the traditional domestic “matriarchy.” They see the female as “Goddess” but not likewise as the “Devil.” They talk ad nauseum about the “glass ceiling” w/o acknowledging the men tied to the “glass cellar”, e.g., men still dominate the 20 most dangerous, low-paying professions & suffer 95% of all workplace-related deaths & injuries. They are pathetic, petulant, pedantic women-children & if they aren’t careful, the ADULTS with get tired of doing all the heavy lifting and allow the Bogymen to come in and put all of the women of this country in Burkas.

JoJo, et al: de facto Matriarchy
Contrary to the myth of a “Patriarchy” popularized by the MSM, the de facto “Shadow Matriarchy” is alive and well. Despite all of the not so apparent benefits modern FEMINISM (i.e., Gender Marxism) has brought to contemporary American society, American MEN continue to do all the heavy lifting (90% of overtime, 95% of all work related deaths, etc.), pay the majority of income taxes (Top 50% of wager earners (Majority: MEN!!) pay 96% of all income taxes that support a welfare state that benefits women) & do 98% (women comprise 30% of the military, but only 2% of casualties ) of the dying in a war against a group of ruthless MEN that would love to put American women in Burkas. Why? Both sexes have a biological instinct to protect Females. American society reinforces this instinct by socializing American men into being “other centered” vice the nurtured “self-centered” nature of the contemporary amoral American female. They are taught that they are “expendable” vice the female populace. They are taught that “normal” men sacrifice everything IOT assure the comfort & security of the American female. Evidence? Chivalrous Male politicians were elected and enacted social welfare programs ($1.4T per year) that benefit women at the expense of the majority male taxpayer base. In addition, society is in process of electing female politicians who are in the process of accelerating the male to female transfer of income/ & opportunity (i.e., Divorce Industrial Complex (e.g., child support, alimony, paternity fraud, etc), sexist progressive income tax system, VAWA, affirmative action, quotas in perpetuity, etc.). Men, of course, will continue to be peons in support of the multi-trillion $ feminist “Entitlement Industrial Complex.”

The other side of equality
AudiR10 wrote: "That war was won. Women are equal now. Be equal. Think for yourself."

You are right to recognize that although all life's paths are open to today's U.S. women, traveling down the path of one's choice dictates that other paths must remain untrod.

But you are flat out wrong to claim that women are equal. That milepost was passed decades ago. Today's women are more than equal. The social engineers of feminism are only interested in equality (or greater) in outcome, and there only in those few areas where they still can cast women as being shortchanged. Talk to me about Title IX, draft registration, the VAWA, grossly disproportionate spending on women's health issues, seven additional years of life, etceteras and then look me in the Internet eye and tell me again that women really are only equal. Talk to me about equality of duty and sacrifice and then we'll talk about true equality.

For example, did you know that, even when counting childbirth as a form of our nation's work, women make up only 13 percent of work (birthing included) related deaths?

Did you know that men fill a little more than 43 out of 44 of body bags coming home from Iraq?

The bottom line is that the greatest burden one can take on in society is the sacrifice of life itself, and by that measure (deaths incurred in building and maintaining society - birthing children included), American men take on a grossly disproportionate share.

I offer these facts as evidence that men are simply much more willing to push themselves literally to death in pursuit of their duties and ambitions. That is just part of the dimorphic nature of our species. Recognizing this reality is not an attempt, nor an excuse to put women down, just merely a window into the psyche that more often drives men to ascendancy. It is proffered as a likely testimonial as to why women make up only 16 percent of Congress and fill only 16 to 18 percent of boardrooms and top executive suites.

Just thinking for yourself isn't good enough - think well.

please
C'mon, Megan, if you're so honest surely you can provide quotations, articles, speeches, --anything to substantiate your specious claim.

Another Strawman
This is one of those phoney, trumped-up inventions that right-wing punettes are so fond of - the creations of the straw-dog female gang of monsters who are out to destroy families, children, apple pie, and the American Way of Life.

The column is long on generalizations, but there isn't one specific example of "feminists" trying to subvert American culture and stay-at-homemothers. It's a lie, folks, it just ain't happening, and it's one more attempt bythe right to throw fear fairy dust into the dialogue.

In short, it's a shameful, ignorant, cynical lie.

You know why Marx called it "Utopia"
Anybody know what "utopia" means?

It is Greek for "NOWHERE"!!!!

Hi AudiR10
Your comments are right on! :-)
I very fortunately chose a profession that pays great. I have 3 kids and have been able to work part-time. My husband lost his job recently, so I was able to pick up some extra time in the interim.
I'm doggone glad that I have the education and license that I do, so we can keep up with the bills.
My first priority is my home and family, but I do enjoy my profession, too.

So when my husband finds a new job, I'll cut back to part-time again.

Old Tale
It's the tiresome "they deserve something for nothing because they were/are oppressed" nonsense intrinsic to all victimology rant.

AudiR10, thankyou for a truly thoughful
post. I am a medical professional in the USAF and have seen female(and a few male)officers struggle with the same issue. Ultimately, life is about a balance and the completion of one's deepest aspirations. There are many paths and I hope that people can follow the one that their soul is pointing them to. After all, while I am no Biblical scholar, I do recall a passage about not being able to truly serve two masters.

It's not always about money!
I know that if a lot of mothers could afford it, they would stay at home with the kids. But what about people who can afford it, but choose not to? Sometimes it not about the money, but about priorities and principles.

I recently read an article in the New Yorker magazine, where they profiled several New Yorkers about their spending habits. One couple included an Investment Trader who made over $1 million a year and his wife, a stay at home mom, and their 3 year old twins. However, even though his wife didn't work, she was never really with the children. When the kids weren't in daycare, they were with the babysitter while Mom was out shopping. In fact their mother called the babysitter three times in one week, to babysit for over 3 hours each time.

Some people think it's more important to be seen and heard among the jetset, rather than to nurture and bring up the little ones. I would never put my social life ahead of my three year olds.



Career Choices
I think what is most distressing part of this column is motherhood is a career choice (a vital choice for human survival), but not to this brand of feminist. But at the end of the day the majority of mothers will want to raise their own childern.

Europe however has fixed the career problem - and a result they've abdicated having enough childern to perpetuate they're culture - self inflicted genocide. And there are plenty of other cultures willing to supplant theirs (and those cultures don't adhere to Western cultural ideals - they treat women like mere chattel). Is this future debacle something we want?

The question will soon be moot
and I hope I live long enough to see it happen.

The Internet Revolution is making it more and more possible for women (and men) to work FROM their homes instead of going out to a workplace. It's making it possible for them to set their own schedules and even own/run their own i-businesses. Already people can pursue writing and journalism and even teaching careers from their homes; as the Internet expands, more and more jobs will fit under its umbrella -- and the whole "stay-at-home mom vs. working mom" question will go the way of the dinosaur, as though their own ingenuity, both men and women will find better and wiser and smarter ways to combine work and family.

Choice is important to me. I have always been "about" my work, so to speak. I love my job as a teacher, and my off-hours are often given to my other aspiration, to be a writer. (Technically speaking I already AM a writer; I just haven't been published yet.) I've always been self-aware enough to know that the life of a homemaker is not for me. But, as I've mentioned before, I don't expect every woman to be like me. Now that we have choices, thanks to "First Wave" feminists who understood the movement should be about Equality of Opportunity and not Equality of Result, why is it so difficult for us to understand that when a woman decides to cut back on work hours to stay at home with her children, this is HER choice and it should be respected? Why is this so hard?

The government needs to keep out of individuals' way as much as possible. Individual women's decision not to pursue a full-time career is NOT a bleepin' PROBLEM for the government to solve, and we certainly don't need measures described as "socialist." What we need, instead, is a better understanding of men and women as individuals whose choices belong to them. I'm not the homemaking type, but many of my students are, and if there's any notion that gets on my very last nerve, it's the idea that somehow they're "wasting their education" when they make more traditional choices. I want my students to put the knowledge I can give them to good use whatever arena they enter; an appreciation of language and stories is useful in a domestic environment as well as a socio-economic one. The best gift I can give them is a willingness to see each one of them as a thinking, reasoning individual capable of making her, or his, own decisions.

History is taking care of this problem, one Internet business at a time. The "cottage industry" is being reborn right under our noses, and we'll soon see an age in which all family members, children included, can play a role in the economic life of a family. The Internet Revolution may well be the best thing that has happened to families in this country.

But it hasn't quite happened yet; otherwise, we wouldn't be having this discussion. So in the meantime -- why not let individuals be who they are, instead of trying to police them??

There are always people who don't get it
Personally I think it's about bloody time that women woke up and realized that you can't ride two horses in two different races and win them both.

As an old fashioned feminist, I long ago realized that a high-pressure, long-hours, irregular working day business is something that is suitable for men and for women who are willing to work like men. I choose to work like a man. I have respect for women who thought they could do it and who realized they can't and who courageously stepped down and into another career; and that includes those who choose to make their husband and children their career. Not only is this better for them, it is better for us. When all hands are needed on deck because Mr. Justice Jones has decreed that the arguments you planned to present on Monday have to be presented tomorrow, the last person you need on your team is the one on the telephone desperately trying to reach her Nanny to see if Susie has had a BM this morning and whether Jason found his lunch box.

I had a couple of young women lawyers that I worked for back in the early part of my career. Both were ardent feminists, as they had to be in order to get past the "Its No Use Hiring Girls To Do Anything" mantra. Both got pregnant (within wedlock, I must add) and left the firm. One of them cheerfully admitted she had been wrong when she said motherhood could be combined with a full time law career, took a lot of good natured teasing, and went home to settle down and rear her children as a happy Mom. The other one struggled for two years, too proud to admit she had been wrong because she didn't want to be 'thought a loser' or 'let the women down'. Finally she took a lower-pressure job and went home to her daughter, and she was much happier. (We kept in touch and she helped me out when my sister needed a quick Lawyer Letter in a small matter.)

There's nothing harder than to admit you were wrong when you chose your career, especially if somebody has spent $200,000 educating and training you and you're letting the side down (you think) by changing your mind. If you have made a mistake taking a high powered, irregular hours job that you're not happy in anymore, for the love of your fellow employees and the others in your group, as well as for the family at home, take a deep breath and hand in your resignation and go home. Believe me, you're letting more of us down by working with a divided mind than you'd ever be by leaving us altogether and opening a space for another woman who wants to work like a man.

And pay no attention to anybody who says you're letting down the side. That war was won. Women are equal now. Be equal. Think for yourself.

Opting out of a fantasy is heresy.
Feminists, and the Left generally, look upon the world as if it were a DVD or a simplistic computer game.

To such people human beings are one or two-dimensional creations (their creations) - and with the help of propoganda, intimidation and the legislation that has, thus far, been conceded to their madness - they believe everything can be put on hold. They seem to think they can, on behalf of human society, flip on fast forward or rewind at will. They press the mute button to cut out the truth that disturbs them, whilst greatly increasing the volume for the dialogue they like to hear.

The result is that the world they perceive is ultimately an illusion. Presently a very powerful illusion. For woe betide anyone who dares to openly challenge their childlike fantasy of androgynous egalitarianism.

But an illusion it is. And as such it is ultimately doomed. Mass fantasies involving the recreation and redefinition of humanity have always had a limited shelf life. History has repeatedly demonstrated this.

It's ironic, isn't it?
That old-fashioned feminism used to be about "choice", and modern feminism is okay with choice if and only if that "choice" matches their agenda?

Also, aren't liberals the ones who constantly push social programs that allow people - male and female - to NOT work, and still earn income (i.e., welfare)? Talk about a socialist mindset.

So what is it - either we women work, or we stay at home? But it seems we should stay at home only if we're doing so on the government's dime.

Children NEED their parents, and especially their mothers. Children raised in daycare are more likely to have behavioral and health issues. Not to mention that any government run childcare (especially by liberals) would be nothing more than politically-correct indoctrination camps for young children.

I hate to tick off feminists, but I'm giving full-time work one more year, and then I'm going part-time so I can raise my son and any siblings he may have.

Being a mother is more important than being a career woman.

And we all know
that Marx's perfect society worked out so well ...

Eye Opener
Great article! It seems as though it is the feminists who are the ones truly limiting a woman's choice. We should teach our daughters that one of the benefits of living in this great country is that there are choices, but there are consequences to these choices. They should understand that it is more impressive to raise a child than it is to run a company, but if she chooses to run a company then God bless her.

As far as the "level the playing field" thing goes, you don't make yourself better by holding back others. Men and women should be given the equal opportunity to compete in the work place on equal terms. It does no good for our country to hold back half of the population because they are men...unless you are looking to create a socialist state. No thanks!

Remember These Words
"Hirshman believes the U.S. needs to adopt a more socialist model"

That's it in a nutshell. And leave it to the liberal left to ram it down our throats.

I'd rather give up my promotion to a more competitive person (male OR female) than give up my nation to the failures that are seen in the European socialist model.

(Conservative women to the rescue...again.)

This nation is rich because of the self-sacrifice of those willing to make it so. Giving 80 or 100 hours a week isn't a walk in the park, and it isn't for the faint of heart. Neither should "credit" be given for work and sacrifice not performed.

(When the men step up, leave it to the conservative women to stand behind them - the liberals are already divorced.)

Please don't tell me the posturing and poseurism of the left has anything to do with self-sacrifice. They don't self-sacrifice, they need the rest of us to self-sacrifice in order to support those who don't even try.

To wit: Kerry's gas guzzlers ("It's my wife's car."); Al Gore's frequent flyer miles which are offset by the purchase of "carbon credits" (the rich expoiting the poor in the worst possible deception); Edwards' 28,000 square foot house (just think about that one for a moment); rich and sheltered globe-trotting, pseudo-peace purveyor Pelosi telling us that we need to make our most important concern in the world right now - global warming, while she stirs up diplomatic blunders that could sete the middle East ablaze; et cetera.

I would have loved to opt out of the business world to raise children, but the accelerated advent of women into the work force in the second half of the 20th century forced a dependence on the two-income family to achieve the American dream of home ownership.

Just like forced busing ruined the normal and gradual interface between cultures.

Thanks liberalism. I know you've got great things planned for my retirement...

It's about time
The less children are raised in a day care, the better off they are. I'm so glad that so many women are starting to come to their senses and are willing to put their families first. I wonder just how many of these new stay-at-home opt-out moms are the products of day care themselves and having experienced that, now they insist that their own children be raised with a mother. The feminists can use all the euphemisms they want, but it sounds like many moms know in their hearts what's really best for their families after all.
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