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Friday, October 13, 2006
Charles Krauthammer :: Townhall.com Columnist
Disarming North Korea
by Charles Krauthammer
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It shall be the policy of this Nation to regard any nuclear missile launched from Cuba against any nation in the Western Hemisphere as an attack by the Soviet Union on the United States, requiring a full retaliatory response upon the Soviet Union. -- President John F. Kennedy, Oct. 22, 1962

Now that's deterrence.

Kennedy was pledging that if any nuke was launched from Cuba, the United States would not even bother with Cuba but go directly to the source and bring the apocalypse to Russia with a massive nuclear attack.

The remarkable thing about this kind of threat is that in 1962 it was very credible. Indeed, its credibility kept the peace throughout a half-century of Cold War.

Deterrence is what you do when there is no way to disarm your enemy. You cannot deprive him of his weapons, but you can keep him from using them. We long ago reached that stage with North Korea.

Everyone has tried to figure out how to disarm North Korea. It will not happen. Kim Jong Il is not going to give up his nukes. The only way to disarm the regime is to destroy it. China could do that with sanctions, but will not. The United States could do that with a second Korean War, but will not, either.

So we are back to deterrence. Hence the familiar echoes of the Cuban Missile Crisis with North Korea's rude entry into the nuclear club this week. The U.S. had to immediately put down markers for deterrence. President Bush put down two.

One marker, preventing a direct attack on our allies in the region, was straightforward, if bland: ``I reaffirmed to our allies in the region, including South Korea and Japan,'' the president said in a nationally televised statement, ``that the United States will meet the full range of our deterrent and security commitments.'' It is understood by all that the decades-old American nuclear umbrella in the Pacific Rim commits us to attacking North Korea -- presumably with in-kind nuclear retaliation -- were it to attack our allies first.

Gruesome stuff, but run-of-the-mill in the nuclear age. The hard part is the second marker Bush tried to put down: proliferation deterrence.

We are in a new era far more complicated than Kennedy's because his great crisis occurred before the age of terrorism. The world of 1962 was still technologically and ideologically primitive: Miniaturized nuclear weaponry had not yet been invented, nor had modern international terrorism. Yasser Arafat and the PLO gave the world that gift half a decade later with their perfection of the political airline hijacking.

Terrorism has since grown in popularity, ambition and menace. Its practitioners are in the market for nuclear weapons. North Korea has little else to sell.

Hence Bush's attempt to codify a second form of deterrence: "The transfer of nuclear weapons or material by North Korea to states or nonstate entities would be considered a grave threat to the United States, and we would hold North Korea fully accountable for the consequences of such action."

A good first draft, but it could use some Kennedyesque clarity. The phrase "fully accountable" does not exactly instill fear, as it has been used promiscuously by several administrations in warnings to both terrorists and rogue states -- after which we did absolutely nothing. A better formulation would be the following:

Given the fact that there is no other nuclear power so recklessly in violation of its nuclear obligations, it shall be the policy of this Nation to regard any detonation of a nuclear explosive on the United States or its allies as an attack by North Korea on the United States requiring a full retaliatory response upon North Korea.

This is how you keep Kim Jong Il from proliferating. Make him understand that his survival would be hostage to the actions of whatever terror group he sold his weapons to. Any terrorist detonation would be assumed to have his address on it. The United States would then return postage. Automaticity of this kind concentrates the mind.

This policy has a hitch, however. It only works in a world where there is but a single rogue nuclear state. Once that club expands to two, the policy evaporates because a nuclear terror attack would no longer have a single automatic return address.

Which is another reason why keeping Iran from going nuclear is so important. With North Korea there is no going back. But Iran is not there yet. One rogue country is tolerable because it can be held accountable. Two rogue countries guarantees undeterrable and therefore inevitable nuclear terrorism.

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About The Author

Charles Krauthammer is a 1987 Pulitzer Prize winner, 1984 National Magazine Award winner, and a columnist for The Washington Post since 1985.

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Iran
Such a declaration against Iran would have no effect.

The country is run by religious fanatics who are willing to to bring martyrdom to the entire population. Since they will all be rewarded in paradise, there is no threat in anihilation.

The mullahs must be stopped now, by whatever means.

Ideally, the anti-mullah population would overthrow those jokers and then be free to go about the business of being responsible members of the world as many Persians truly want to do.

The threat to the entire world population is very real and must be dealt with seriously!!

See T. Sowell and frivolous politics. we can't aford this!!

If only Bush...
...had been given the tactical (bunker buster) nuclear weapons when he asked for them. We would then be able to take out the North Korean nukes with very little collateral damage -- maybe none at all. But alas, the Demmies wouldn't let him have them. In this line of thinking President Bush becomes close to being visionary as it appears he knew of the forthcoming need.

It is truly sad that once elected our people aren't allowed to actually run the country, but I guess that's the penalty for being a Republican --always up against obstructionists.

Now, lacking the above, Mr. Krauthammer is 100% correct in his very well written column.

the "Kill Bill" method
Now this is just a fantasy ok? And I KNOW why we can't...but, a part of me would love to see America drop a nuke bomb on the least populated part of North Korea...and as Lucy Liu's character told the other Japanese mafia bosses after she cut off the head of one that had given her a bad time...tell the rest of N.Korea...Iran..."ANY QUESTIONS????".


Sanity 102
You have the Kill Bill method slightly wrong. Allow me to remind everyone of the Jerubaal Doctrine, which, now that Sanity mentions it, could also be called the Kill Bill doctrine.

Any state that credibly announces or to our knowledge comes into the position of a nuclear explosive device will be immediately destroyed.

We nuke all of North Korea into a Lake Yalu and ask Iran, "any questions?",

Jerubaal nukes NKorea
To nuke NKorea is to kill far too many innocent civilians who do not have the power to remove their leader.
I do not see why a commando raid on KJIl's palace could not be executed successfully and his assassination be celebrated by all the world.
Or a simple massive conventional bombing of said palace. Unless of course, like Arafat's life fate, he never sleeps in the same bed twice.


CHARLES HAS IT RIGHT
Any transfer of nuclear making equipment to rouge states, or any detonation of nuclear bombs will be considered a direct threat against the United States of America and will be immediately trigger a severe response. Yes it would be terrible for the number of lives that would be lost, however, there is an alternative that is not a happy one for the US to consider and that would be be if the lives that were lost because of a nuclear explosion occurring first in the United States because of political correctness someone struck the US first. Get the picture and see why Korea and Iran need to be dealt with stat?

Visit http://www.headsneedtoroll.org and post your views, thoughts and opinions.
Heads Need To Roll

Nuclear Deterrent
r0_d2 either has his head in the sand or has been watching too much mainstream media newscasts! The Clinton administration CAUSED our current problem in North Korea.

My suggestion for resolution of BOTH the North Korean and Iranian problems is support and/or infiltration by the CIA and our allies to cause an overthrow of the mullahs in Iran and, if necessary, the assassination and/or removal of Kim and his immediate family members from North Korea. Short of that, sooner or later, a nuke will wind up in the hands of a terrorist group and then it will be too late!

That Word "Innocent," Again.
When are we going to give up the word "Innocent." How can 23 million North Koreans be innocent? And I include the 49 million South Koreans -- not innocent. By their cowardness, they have allowed the Kim family to rule 23 million Koreans for 58 years.

It's time to quit using the word innocent, for any nation-state's population. "You get the government you deserve," applies not only to US, but to everyone.

"I was only following orders" was rejected 60 years ago.

My God! We "rearranged" our whole country, 1860 - 1865 -- over this issue. We didn't mind killing our own, in order to get the job done. Well, we "minded it," but we did what we had to do. Let us grant the Korean people the same privilege: it is time for all Koreans to "Stand and Deliver."

Iranians also.

I hardly believe ...
..my eyes -- r0_d2 says"The Clinton White House successfully prevented North Korea from producing any plutonium for eight years.
A 1994 agreement between the United States and North Korea, negotiated by the Clinton White House, halted Korean plutonium production until 2002, when Bush abandoned the agreement." Why don't you take your head out of your arse and look at the facts. Even the NYT knows, and published, the fact that we hadn't left the country after signing the "1994 agreement" and the North Koreans were already in the process of making plutonium FROM ALL THE MATERIALS AND TECHNOLOGY CLINTON GAVE THEM AND PAYING FOR IT WITH THE MONEY (BILLIONS OF DOLLARS) THAT WAS HANDED TO KIMMY SR. AFTER HE SIGNED. Get with it dolt and start breathing oxygen again so your brain will at least start functioning at an imbicilic level (pre-supposing, of course, that you have a brain).
BTW, concerning your moniker what two items have the Republicans lost and the democrats won?

ro-d2
in 2002 the Bush administration abandoned the agreement because nk admitted in 2002 (after being caught) that they had not honored their part of it and had been working on their nuke program in COMPLETE DEFIANCE of the agreement almost since the ink dried on the original agreement. President Bush has had to play catch-up on this one ever since he came into office. This is just another case of the dems being behind the 8-ball in National Security. It's a big evil world out there and at least the Republicans, for all their failures, understand this and are trying to do something about it. Sending flowers to the dear leader of la-la land doesn't accomplish a whole lot.

1 more thing
These days the world is so dangerous and so close to going mad that EVERY election is about National Security. The Republicans, for all their faults, and they are many, at least realize this. With a little over 3 weeks to go the dems are still shreaking about foley and complaining about the Bush administration's reaction to a problem which can be laid directly at the feet of ex-President Clinton.

Bush didn't cause anything
..you partisan hack.

North Korea is under sanctions for all their actions over the past half century. I thought you guys treated the UN like some kind of higher power? What the he11 does he need nukes for if he is mad about not getting nuke reactors? China supplies all of N Koreas energy. Not to mention he has counterfeited American currency(AN ACT OF WAR) and supplies Iran and Syria with arms.

He started building long range missiles BEFORE Bush even took office. What do you think he had in mind for them? You know the guy that gasses whole familys whilst his scientist note the results? The one who kidnaps women and sells them to Chinese businessmen?

Yeah he is just a poor victim of GWB.

Its fairly sad and pathetic blaming our president for the actions of one of the worlds worst regimes.

r0_d2, All I can .......
..do is re-iterate --- GET YOUR HEAD OUT OF YOUR ARSE!!!!! You keep saying the same thing over and over as if you expect us to start believing it to be the truth because we heard it so many times. Duh -- that old demo trick no longer works on someone who actually reads more than demo talking points.
BTW, I thought I asked you to explain your name. I guess you can't do that either!

r2
You have no facts either. A post from the LA times? LOL.

Unless you were in the regime(are you?) you have no idea what the Gargoyle has been up to since 1994.

You can easily look up the date of his long range missle tests. I am sure you have some _facts_ to tell me they were conducted to get more reactors to bring electricity to the populace he cares so much about.

here is a timeline for 'Uncle Kim'
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2006/10/09/asia/AS_GEN_Koreas_Nuclear_Chronology.php

I was incorrect before, he developed the missile before Bush took office but tested it afterwards.

I note also how you say he becomes aggressive at the mention of 'axis of evil' but in reality he was mad at delays getting his Carter-promised nuclear reactors.

So what should we do? Just give Lil'Kim whatever he wants? After all we don't want to upse him do we? I wait with baited breath.

In defense of nuking North Korea
it might save Iran and any number of other countries, including ours, from the same fate.

We could just do a thousand sorties with B-52s, but then that would deliver as much firepower as Hiroshima and Nagasaki, so I fail to see the difference.

Bush didn't do anything?
Part of the "Agreed Framework" was the FACT that Clinton did not insist on any weapons inspectors for the first FIVE years.

Now, why would a sentient leader agree to fully trust a tyrant concerning the CENTRAL issue of the agreement (NOKO would get benefits for not doing nukes? Who would trust a man who has murdered millions of his OWN people?

And if NOKO was acting in "good faith" why wouldn't they happily allow full, uninhibited, inspections?

It makes no sense does it? Well, welcome to the world of Clintonian "diplomacy". All hail a "landmark" agreement (with NOKO, with Yasser Arafat)that is a joke from the begining and merely provides both a cover AND resources for despots to further their nefarious goals.

Can't anyone on the left see the destruction the narcissist Clinton wrecked in his time? Folks, he did nothing. With respect to the economy, that was a good thing. With respect to terrorism, tryanny and genocide (does Rwanda ring a bell?) Bubba did what he did best; obfuscate and lie. The efforts of "ro_d2" and others to re-write or actually change history (Sandy Berger and his socks) will come to nothing in this ever transparent age. By all means, keep trying; each failure simply adds more fuel to your ongoing self-immolation.

r0_d2 reads the Korean news
Here is the link to the North Korean news. It appears that most of r0's talking points come from this source. It seems that most of the Dems may be getting their talking points from the same... you know, the US is the WORST human rights violators, we are war-mongers, etc.
http://www.kcna.co.jp/index-e.htm
It is pathetic that there are so many people trying to simplify this situation by blaming it one one President or another. The problems in NK are an accumulation of many decades of problems dating back to pre-Korean War. To simply say that this is the fault of Clinton or of Bush is too simplistic and only shows a lack of understanding of history or an unwillingness to look back any father than ones own life-span.

Townhall Needs to Update Their Antivirus
They still haven't cleaned the r0_d2 worm out of the system.

Yo ro_d2
You are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts. The facts are that North Korea played Clinton and Albright like a stratavarius violin. After signing your precious "agreement", Kim continued to work fevorishly on his nuclear program. Even Albright admitted they were fooled.

N. Korea
Ro_d2:

You're wasting your breath. Even if Bush had been in office for fifty years his supporters would still be trying to blame Clinton for the various ills of the world.
Here's the deal: Anything good in this country is do to his fearless leadership. Anything bad was obviously caused by Bill Clinton.

Roady II . . .
is blaring the lefist-socialist propaganda.

He claims North Korea, like Iraq, was a peaceful, loving, non-WMD country and only started a nuke program after Bush called North Korea "evil".

Yeah, sure, Roady II. When will you sell me that beach house in Colorado?

Part of the problem with the PDRK began in 1951 when we, under UN sanction, failed to kick the bejesus out of Red China. MacArthur wanted to do that, but Truman (yet another Socialist-Democrat) cut and ran, then fired the good general.

Fast-foward to 1991 when George H.W. Bush decided to withdraw US nukes from the ROK (aka South Korea). This was the green light for Kim in the PDRK to really begin his own nuke program.

The nukes we had in the ROK were tactical. I served a tour in the ROK '65 - '66 at one of the repositories near Taejon-ni.

We have sufficient sea-born nukes to bomb the PDRK back to the Pre-Cambrian Era.

We should, as Charles K. wrote, remind Kim of that and do it in no uncertain terms.

OOPS!
I meant "DPRK" (Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea).

darn keyboard . . .

NK's plans
"In an interview on the Daily Show with John Stewart,[in 1992] former Secretary of State James Baker let it slip that North Korea “...had a rudimentary nuclear weapon way back in the days when I was secretary of state, but now this is a more advanced one evidently.” He was Secretary of State between 1989 and 1992." Wikipedia NK Timeline

Does ANYONE really believe that NK is interested in developing nuclear power because the big, bad USA cut off their oil...that it was the USA that caused all the problems of starvation and repression that exists in Korea when we decided to no longer play their game? We should have been more aggressive long before we arrived at today's dilemma.


Krauthammer, of course,
stands should to shoulder with Thomas Sowell in terms of his clarity of thought and ability to convey complicated ideas in an understandable way.

I was struck by Kennedy's verbiage, and I long for a leader who can convey a strong message while speaking the King's english. I want to bang my head against the wall every time "W" throws out "nukular," because I can see every weenie, leftist professor, proselytizing the vapid lumps of humanity sitting before him that the president is an ignoramus and the U.S government attacked itself on 9/11, because the president was to dumb to formulate a foreign policy.

If necessary, Bush should extract Kennedy's very words, substituting DPRK for the Soviet Union of course, have them blasted on a monument like Judge Roy Moore's "Ten Commandments," and ship them to the doorstep of the little cretin in Nork accompanied, perhaps, with some photos of the aftermath of Hiroshima and Nagasaki in 1945, and underscored simply with "Vaporization is not a day at the beach."


r2-IQ(-1)
Give it up. Clinton was a feckless nitwit whose policies led directly to 9/11 and the less than enviable positon we find ourselves in with respect to DPRK.

Your pitiable attempt at trying to serve up the Zipper as sort of superb statesman with his country's interest at heart doesn't fly here. His primary focus was his gonads, and we're still paying the price for his juvenile crap.

you know what
He has a point. Hitler invaded the rest of Europe because we did not help the Germans failing economy after WWI. We supported the league of nations sanctions on Germany.

It was OUR FAULT. Don't you guys understand?

Laff.

It still works with two
While it may not be politically palatable to make such a deterrence stance were we dealing with countries run by ostensibly sane people with merely militarily aggressive tendencies, we are in fact dealing with two nations, one run by a bunch of sociopathic nutjobs bent on forcing the rest of the world to accept their twisted religious doctrine and dedicated to eradicating anyone who dares to say "No", and the other run by a certifiable looney toon with no concern for anything but his own aggrandizement. And because this is what we are dealing with, and because the rest of the world bloody well knows that's what we are ALL dealing with, it is perfectly acceptable to say "If any nuclear attack is launched on the U.S. or any of its allies, we will immediately respond in kind with attacks on both Iran and North Korea."

The mistake Mr. Krauthammer makes is in assuming that we must always continue to play by the rules we have agreed upon with the civilized nations of the world, even when we are not dealing with those nations. Iran was, once upon a time, a highly civilized nation, but it has wandered from that path and has now spent the past 25 years doing everything in its power to devolve back to the dark ages. Whatever level of civilization North Korea ever enjoyed was destroyed when Kim Il Sung was allowed to take over and found his lunatic asylum on the peninsula. Both nations have reverted to barbarism toward their own people and all outsiders, and neither of them is entitled to the kind of treatment we reserve for civilized nations.

And regarding the willingness of the mullahs to embrace martyrdom: that's all smoke and mirrors. The past 25 years has shown quiet well that the mullahs in Iran, and indeed in all of Islam, only embrace martyrdom for others. They are all quite happen to go on living and clearly wish to continue doing so.

Mick7
I know what you mean about "nukular," but the funny thing is, Carter pronounced it the same way. And he at one point was a NUKULAR ENGINEER for the U.S. Navy!

Really people, is there any point in arguing with r0_d2? Y'all remember the old line about wrestling with a pig in the mud.

r2-IQ(-1)
What is your point? That you're some goofball illiterate who spells "thier"
instead of their. Go back to school, boob.

r0_d2
Look,obviously your political interests are of a recent nature,but your knowledge of history
is even younger.
Please'I'm sincerely not trying to insult you,but do a little research,not on wikipedia,but rather some serious NK. history of agression.
You might find that they have never kept there word.
Sorry I don't mean to spoil the plot.
But when you come here and comment,we might actually take you more seriously.

Deterrence
In 1962 the world was barely more than 15 years since seeing the United States resolve in using nuclear weapons. Today they have been watching us allow ourselves to be kicked and slither and turn against ourselves like broken dogs. Until the world witnesses that type of determination by this country again there will be no deterrence. It does not have to be nuclear but it must be swift, overwehlming and decisive.

And it must be followed up by another blow. Ever wonder why two bombs were dropped on Japan instead of just one and allowing them time to let reality sink in? Because the message had to be that this was not a mistake, we had no regrets in doing it and we are both capable and willing to keep doing it. That is deterrence.

Solar
I made a comment the other day with respect to LBJ's response at the approval of the Voting Rights Act of 1964. In a later post you asked where I'd gotten it. To be honest, I'm not exactly sure. I think it came from one of Ann Coulter's books, perhaps "Treason.". At the time,I remember being struck by the crude language used by a sitting President with respect to an extremely sensitive issue, but I'm also aware that when it comes to doing research they don't come any better than Coulter.

r0_d2
One more try.
I'm not talking about Clinton history,I referenced everything prior.When you can see an event taking place in recent history(eg.Bush/Clinton} To best understand the event one must know the history prior.
So please read a little farther back.

r0_d2 . . .
opinions aren't facts. The DPRK continued its nuclear weapons program from at least 1991.

You scream and yell about the evil Bush empire, but are supportive of the Clinton fiasco in 1994, brokered by Carter and Albright, giving the DPRK the green light to continue its nuclear weapons program.

What "facts" don't you understand? Do you get paid by the post? Anyone can get access to a keyboard and post the drivel you spout. You're lucky Soros is a billionaire so your checks won't bounce.

Mick7
Thanks Mick,Ann is a great start.
Besides it will be fun reading all her columns,and I still have'nt gotten Treason yet.

Nothing from the left surprizes me anymore regarding their treatment of blacks,LBJ was one of the most Racists yet.

Solar is right
r0...solar is right to check farther back in history to completely understand where things in NK stand today. It isn't that wikipedia is a bad source but it isn't a complete source. I don't knock wiki, it just isn't the complete source of info. It only has a current timeline and this issue is much deeper than Clinton/Bush which you all seem to be hung up on. I doubt that any "agreement" that either President did or did not follow would have stopped the NK's from pursuing nuclear weapons in the disguise of nuclear energy. The road they are on was built years ago under "The Great Leader, Kim ll Sung" and followed by his wach job son. To attribute any of this to Bush is just short-sightedness in the rear-view mirror. But I am sure that is makes you feel better in some way to blame Bush.

good column
This is the best column by Krauthammer I have seen in a while. A credible threat of deterrence is the best hope we have now that Korea has the bomb. The one thing he misses is that credible deterrence requires not only that one be convincing that one will act if certain lines are crossed, but also that one will not act unless certain lines are crossed. The power of deterrence lies in the clarity of what will and won't produce consequences. For that reason strong deterrence is incompatible with the Bush doctrine of preemption. After all when we threated to attack Korea if they do certain things, they can response, but you threatened to attack us even if we didn't so why should we care?

r0_d2: You wrote
"Explain one of your spews to me.....
Today I have seen MULTIPLE postings linking to WiKi.I don't see you having a problem with them."

I used wikipedia once for something regarding Minerals.
But to use it for political research is inane
Any moron can post what ever they want...even you!
Then you could regurgitate it as fact.


All my reference for info. here is from memory,age is wisdom.
For which you have neither.

Mick7
Regarding LBJ, if the remark was (paraphrased):
This will have them voting Democratic for the next hundred years.
Then, yeah I remember hearing about him saying that at the time and have heard it attributed to him at other times through the years. Sorry I can't provide you with any solid sources but for an old boy who showed off his appendectomy scar for Life photographers that type of candor can't be too out of character. Even in that day it was not considered the most tactful of statements although the condimnation today would only be exceeded by an act of public rape.

Later.

Pakistan Scientist?
To what extent is Pakistan already culpable for the nucular secrets it's scientist have given away? In other words, can we even now say that there is only 1 rouge nucular power, or be definitive in the source of a bomb if one is used against us?

jerubaal, jerubaal...
as my European colleague pointed out...then what do we do if India did the same to Pakistan? Or Israel nuked Palestine and told Iran "Any Questions"? Or...

...why, we could actually have peace for the REAL innocents because the bullies would know that the world's play ground has rules and they gotta play "nice".

Oh and one more thing...remember that Lucy "smiled" at the end...got to remember to smile when we say "any questions"?





Yeah, Leroy,
it was like peeking behind the curtain in the "Wizard of Oz". Here was this supposed civil rights leader who was instrumental in passing, perhaps, one of the greatest human rights achievements of the 20th Century, the basis of which in reality sprung from a crude political calculation, not a humanitarian one.

I still think the creep had his fingerprints all over the assassination of JFK. He lusted after political power the way der Slickmeister lusted after late evening phone sex with a nubile intern.

Talk about "fiddlin' while Rome burned..."

solar
LBJ was a racist but no more than most of his generation. A racist would have ignored the plight of minorities completely, Johnson was a user. He didn't care what your skin color was as long as you voted for his ticket. He saw the opportunity to drag a large block of voters into his corner with virtually no effort and reacted on it. The language he used refering to people were words in common use in his generation, they were understood to be crude at the time but were nowhere the taboo they are today.

Johnson did a lot of good in my part of the country, especially in his early political career. He worked to get the REA established down here getting electricity to rural folks, he also worked on getting a lot of rural school districts funded. All this benifitted not just white families but also a large block of Hispanic voters. And the voters never forgot it and he knew they wouldn't.

A racist? No more than any white male from a wealthy influential family at that time. But he certainly was a user.

Food fight
Again, TH posts have degenerated into a mindless food fight complete with ad hominem attacks. There a very few mentions of solutions to the real problems we face.

The invasion by R0_D2 seems to be the catalyst this time.

My advice? Ignore future postings of dimwits and stick to the issues of the columns

r2.IQ(-1)
Your posts are tiresome and you're a buffoon. Doesn't your Mother have some errands for you to tend to.

Review of a comment by r0_d2 (and more)
Now, I know others have been trying to get this guy (r0_d2) to reason... with himself. But let's try this. Here's his post and let's review it a little more:


July 2000: North Korea THREATENS to restart nuclear program if Washington does not compensate for loss of electricity due to delays in building nuclear POWER plants.

Review: Now wait a minute, who was president in July 2000? So who's policy is this? Explain to me how the problem, which you just pointed out starts HERE AT LATEST, goes to Bush.

----------
June 2001: North Korea WARNS it will RECONSIDER missile test moratorium if Washington doesn't resume contacts aimed at normalizing relations.

Review: 5 months after Bush gets into office, I'm sure his administration was aware of last year's comments, and probably the "advice" of the last administration. So logically, whose policy affected this? You can't possibly reason with this that Bush's administration's policy was in full effect at this time.

-----------

December 2001: President Bush warns Iraq and North Korea will be "held accountable" if they develop weapons of mass destruction.

Review: Ahhh, the first point that the left tries to use to say that Bush's administration broke a "good thing" with North Korea. Um, hello? Their behavior up to that point was "good"? In the fact that we had not started a war with them? If that's the definition, I'm scared of how you define many other things.

---------
Nov. 11, 2002: U.S. and key Asian allies - Japan, South Korea - halt oil supplies to North promised in 1994 (CLINTON) deal.

Review: Makes sense to me, and I don't think you know all of the facts on this. Don't you think that 3 countries had GOOD REASON to do this? While you could possibly say that the US policy made our part on it, you are out of your mind and do not know international affairs if you believe we somehow "coerced" Japan and South Korea into doing the same thing.

----------
Jan. 10, 2003: North Korea says it will withdraw from Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty.

Review: Um, the flags had gone up long before then, just the charade is gone. For R0_d2 and anyone else that feels his opinion is correct, I will tell you RIGHT NOW that you are forgetting that you may not have all the information. You have to have a little faith in your government that they know what they are talking about, and if you don't? Guess what? You're not looking for a democracy. Democracy requires a certain level of trust, and that goes both ways - trust that the representative government does what it needs to for the people, and trust FROM THE PEOPLE that they are doing what they can. You think you can do it? Anyone? Then maybe you should run for dictator of your own home.

Me? I'll take my elected government, because at least THEN I have a say. The type of transparent government that tells the average joe everything DOES NOT EXIST, and that's for security reasons. Do you trust everyone with all of your life? Of course not, so why would you expect a government, which allows you to live the way you do, to give that protection up? It may not be perfect, and people make mistakes, but I can say this - I am PROUD to be an American, I am PROUD of my government, and I would NEVER let someone take that away from us!

r0-d2

You are the poster child for one of Churchill's best quotes. You are clueless how childish your posts read.

Grow up, will you?

Okay...
R0_d2,

OK, let's be scientific and respectful about this...

First, you said you disagree with the timeline. If you disagree with the timeline produced by the Associated Press, I want you to PROVE, citing as many sources as you can, the CORRECT timeline that you believe in. And try to cite sources that can be verified please. (For example, that AP timeline CAN be verified with other news agencies, so I am intrigued that you may have a different opinion)

Second, you said that it proves your point that Bush was the one that caused this whole mess. So you do not consider a threat or a warning the instigating factor? Then please cite the exact time, again backed by citations, the catalysm for the buildup of events with North Korea. I'll be happy to hear your case.

Third, you still did not address one very important issue. Do you, and given I don't know what you do in life (but this is based on the assumption you are not working in a classified position), really TRULY believe that you have been given all of the information that there is on North Korea? Do you think that America in general has been given this?

For someone to treat you as credible, you need to back yourself up. That's responsibility 101. Every person learns that lesson, regardless of party lines. So may I invite you to change your talking to something that will be treated as mature and responsible. The lack of this change... well, maybe you just like rattling cages. Respect other's opinions, whether you agree with them or not. You can rest assured whatever you believe you're entitled to (with some exceptions).

Thank you for your time.

FOWG... USABeliever
Fowg you are correct in what you say,and yes it does degenerate into a slinging match.

But we also get as a result of such slinging.
an inteligent responces such as what USABeliever has written.
You stay on point,and I will look forward to your post keeping us there.
I enjoy the mix.

Primus54
What is sad is,he will say who is Churchill.
This would require research priop to Clinton.

r0_d2
How disingenuos and intelectually dishonest.
You started :AP 2003 limited timeline
What happened to Bill Clinton's time in office?
Did it shoot holes in your arguement?
Obviously the truth is painful.

But we will wait to see if you can come up with the rest,for then we can have an honest discussion on the facts.

R0_D2
Wrong assumption yet again:

Fat
Old
White
Guy

Is what it means

He11, I fell for it after urging we ignore the dimwits!! Yuk!!

Somewhere in here...
...the adults were talking about means of deterring North Korea from possibly deploying a tactical nuclear weapon.

I would think the best deterrent would come from China, she is closer and still North Koreas primary milk cow. Since we have now made China a free trade partner, meaning we buy and they take our money, we may be able to use this as some leverage. From what I understand however, they hold so much of our debt this may prove clumsy. China may not even require much convincing in order to do something, North Korea is in their back yard and while may not be a direct threat to China any repercussions from a North Korean action would affect them.

Russia is a different story, she has her eyes elsewhere and is happy to let somebody else take care of this problem.

Possibly even just have "The Short Fat One" not show up for breafast one morning and nobody can seem to find him. Ever.

As the last option one country or a combination of countries hits the key facilities in a co-ordinated series of strikes. Then the whole world stands back and says "Gee whiz, looks like you had a couple of accidents".

Or we live with it, because no matter what is said you are not going to buy those weapons from him for food nor money.

I return you now to Reasoning=0 Dumbness=2

r0_d2 Time line in breif
As you will note,prior to 1999 we had santions against NK. since 1953.
The can had been sealed and contained,to some extent.
Then Bill Clinton opened the preverbial can of worms in 1999.

1993: North Korea shocks world by saying it will quit Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty, later suspends its withdrawal.

- 1994: North Korea, United States sign agreement in Geneva, North pledges to freeze, eventually dismantle, nuclear weapons program in exchange for help building two power-producing nuclear reactors.

- Sept. 17, 1999: U.S. President Bill Clinton agrees to first major easing of economic sanctions against North Korea since Korean War's end in 1953.

- July 2000: North Korea threatens to restart nuclear program if Washington does not compensate for loss of electricity due to delays in building nuclear power plants.

- June 2001: North Korea warns it will reconsider missile test moratorium if Washington doesn't resume contacts aimed at normalizing relations.

- July 2001: U.S. State Department reports North Korea developing long-range missile.

- December 2001: President Bush warns Iraq and North Korea will be "held accountable" if they develop weapons of mass destruction.

- Jan. 29, 2002: Bush labels North Korea, Iran and Iraq an "axis of evil."

- Oct. 4, 2002: North Korea tells visiting U.S. delegation it has a second covert nuclear weapons program, Washington says.

- Nov. 11, 2002: U.S. and key Asian allies - Japan, South Korea - halt oil supplies to North promised in 1994 deal.

- Jan. 10, 2003: North Korea says it will withdraw from Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty.

- April 16, 2003: U.S., Chinese and North Korean officials announce talks in Beijing aimed at ending nuclear standoff.

- April 24, 2003: North Korea says it has nuclear weapons and may test, export or use them depending on U.S. actions, Washington says.

- Aug. 27-29, 2003: North Korea joins first round of six-nation nuclear talks in Beijing, which include China, U.S. Japan, Russia and South Korea.

- Feb. 25-28, 2004: Second round of six-nation talks.

- June 23-26, 2004: Third round of six-nation talks.

- September 2004: North Korea refuses to attend fourth round talks, accusing U.S. of "hostile" policies.

- Feb. 10, 2005: North Korea announces it has nuclear weapons.

- July 26, 2005: Fourth round of six-nation talks begins, ends in recess after 13 days with no agreement.

- Sept. 13, 2005: Talks resume.

- Sept. 15, 2005: U.S. blacklists a Macau-based bank for alleged involvement in North Korea's illicit activity such as money laundering and counterfeiting, leads the bank to freeze North Korean assets.

- Sept. 19, 2005: North Korea pledges to dismantle nuclear programs in exchange for pledges of energy assistance; U.S. pledges not to invade and to respect North's sovereignty in an agreement ending talks.

- Nov. 9-11, 2005: Fifth round of six-nation talks.

- Jan. 3, 2006: North Korea says it won't return to talks unless the U.S. lifts financial restrictions imposed for its alleged currency counterfeiting and other illegal activities.

- March 7: North Korean, U.S. officials meet in New York for talks over U.S. financial restrictions.

- July 5: North Korea launches seven missiles into the Sea of Japan, including a long-range Taepodong-2, drawing international condemnation an a later U.N. Security Council resolution condemning it.

- Sept. 26: North Korea rejects further talks on its nuclear program, claims Washington wants to rule the world.

- Oct. 3: North Korea says it will conduct a nuclear test in the face of what it claimed was "the U.S. extreme threat of a nuclear war."

- Oct. 9: North Koreas says it has conducted its first-ever nuclear test.

Lets get back on the subject Fools
For heaven's sake this endless digression over Clinton's policies vs. Bush's is rediculous.

I like Krauthammer's article and think it is worth discussing.

We are where we are today with N. Korea because no-one's policy (not ours, not S. Korea's, not China's, not Russia's, etc.) has worked to prevent their acquisition and weaponization of nuclear technology over the last decade or so.

Lets grow up. Whether we are democrats or republicans we have to deal with the cards on the table now. I'll start as a committed democrat by saying neither Clinton or Bush wanted them to have this technolgy and both tried to prevent it.

But its obvious that neither prevented it. You can't dispute that.

Now lets figure out what to do with a nuclear N. Korea at this point. That's why I like Krauthammer's article. Its at least a reasonable and credible suggestion. And it might work. Especially with some back channel discussions with China and Russia to convince them to get the message across to the little emperor that it is true and they are not going to stand in our way. This would be much more credible and real than the toothless sanctions under discussion now. I don't think sanctions mean a thing to N. Korea and they haven't made Cuba kick Castro out in all these years.

Let's also face it. Bush and everyone else can do what they believe is the correct policy. I have no faith Bush will stop any more than he stopped N. Korea. So assume Iran is going to get their weapons too. Krauthammer says his suggestion falls apart when that happens because Once the club of rogue states with nuclear weapons expands to two, the policy evaporates because a nuclear terror attack would no longer have a single automatic return address.

I don't think so!! I think we just have two return addresses for a nuclear terror attack on US OR ANY ONE OF OUR FRIENDS. And this will be as certain as the sun will rise tomorrow and 100 times worse for you than anything the terrorists do to us.

I define friend under our umbrella as anyone who stands up and says they agree with us on this specific threat. They don't have to agree with with our war in Iraq. They don't have to agree with us on anything else. But if you don't say that you have our back on this one, you are not our friend. I predict there are very few countries including France that will say they don't want to retaliate for a nuclear attack on their own territory and don't expect us to retaliate for one on ours. Then its not just us saying it.

As for sanctions and the destabilizing effect of regional weapons on and around the Korean penensula I think we should back off a little. Stupid toothless sanctions that weasel their way through the UN are not going to scare anybody. I think we should do our best to make the regional issues China's problem. The little emporer is China's little brother in that region. They have more to lose in that region than we do by by an arms race. In fact if Japan and S. Korea go nuclear in self defense who's to blame them. And who has more to fear from that than China! So maybe we should tell China that unless they cool their little brother down we might actually help that happen.

Then, I would not hold my breath, but it just may be that China would whisper in the little Emperor's ear that they are more our "friend" in this matter than his. And if he continues down this road they'd like to see a succession plan for leadership in his country because little Kim hasn't been looking too healthy lately and surely needs a long vacation away from all the stess of politics on the world stage.

After all, communist as they are, China cares deeply about all the dollars they get from Walmart and all the technology jobs from US outsourcing. No doubt about it.

aryling
No Plutonium?
Check the following in the timeline,how long do you suppose it took to make it!
As for your comment about GOP.
Iam a conservative first.
His points are based in nonsence,not even weak as you would say!
Ashamed? What world do you live in,this is a ddiscussion board.
So keep your personal shame to yourself!

Oct. 4, 2002: North Korea tells visiting U.S. delegation it has a second covert nuclear weapons program, Washington says.

slacker
There have been times I found myself in disagreement with you but in this instance that is not the case.

I don't believe there will be any negotiating either North Korea or iran out of their respective nuclear programs. Short of direct intervention (bombing or change of leadership) these countries will undoubtably proceed. As such our message would be:
Welcome to the nuclear faimily anything leaving your airspace targeting any other country in the world will lead to your countries complete destruction. Have a nice day.

slacker
Lets get back on the subject Fools?

You wrote:
"We are where we are today with N. Korea because no-one's policy (not ours, not S. Korea's, not China's, not Russia's, etc.) has worked to prevent their acquisition and weaponization of nuclear technology over the last decade or so."

And then you quickly gloss over the fact that Clinton gave them them reactors.

I will place blame where it squarely belongs,for we would not be here discusing this debacle today
if not for CLINTON.

As to the cure for all of this mess'
If the media will shutup long enough and let Bush do his job.
It will go something like this:
NK. threatens us,we threaten back,and this back and forth and will progress for sometime,the other countries involved will jockey for position,depending on their own best interests.
At which time China will concede since most will aligh with us and they will tell NK. knock it off,and we will be fine for about...your guess is as good as mine.

Sorry Solar
I have no gloss for you. I will try again, but will then lose interest in discussing this with you in particular.

I did not gloss over your sideline food fight with R2-D2 or whoever about what Clinton and Bush did or didn't do. I intentionally ignored it. It may matter to you but it doesn't matter IN THIS CONTEXT. You can take your discussion somewhere else where people actually care want to waste their time on it.

I suggested we get back on the topic raised in Krauthammer's article which are worth discussing.

Clinton's not the President any more.

Bush is.

N. Korea has nuclear weapons. It matters far, far less what Clinton or Bush did in the past than this SIMPLE FACT. That maniac in N. Korea HAS NUCLEAR TECHNOLOGY. That significantly changes the world if he becomes a source of weapons to stateless terrorists. He doesn't care about sanctions or any posturing we or anyone else does in the UN. We must find a way to prevent it and soon.

WE HAVE TO MAKE HIM FEAR THAT TECHNOLOGY EVER BEING USED AGAINST US. We must make HIM want to prevent it. There are too many ways he can use that technology if he and his minions don't have that fear. Its the cold war all over again in the new context of stateless terrorists.

Krauthammer has a reasonable suggestion to make him think twice if not three or four times before doing anything really stupid. I was trying to explain why it is a reasonable suggestion and improve it.

I don't care about your food fight with R0-D0. But hoped you could refrain from cluttering up this topic with it.

Oh, never mind. I don't think you will. I understand. Your hatred of Clinton clouds your mind. I'll just ignore your posts on that topic. Have fun.

solar
As to your assesment that China can have enough influence on The Short Fat One to get him to abandon his program, even temporarily, I am not sure. One would think they would have made their displeasure known to him, even privately, by now but the Chinese can be a hard read. Even if they do and it works we are only half way to first base.

There is no China to pressure Iran, Russia comes the closest but two things hinder that, well three actually.
1)Russia has a stake in keeping the region in turmoil. In many ways the cold war is not over.
2)I'm not sure Russia can bring the type of economic pressure on Iran that China can on North Korea.
3)Russia is not musslem, Iran will not allow itself to be seen as bowing to the wishes of a non-musslem country.

Leroy, yes, we are close on this one
The old MAD doctrine worked during the cold war. People disliked it, but no one, democrat or republican ever abandoned it or found a better policy. All we can say is we are still standing and two ideologies who detested and feared each other stood toe to toe for years in many very different and difficult situations on the global stage.

And while historians will debate how close we came to unleashing the demon of nuclear weapons in those circumstances we never did. Millions of people are alive today because that policy worked.

I may be a liberal but I am not stupid. You can not argue against the track record of the MAD doctrine. And from what little I know about human psychology it makes sense on many levels.

Leroy
I agree with what you just said.
I was strictly addresing NK.
China has to keep them in check for fear of them becoming democratized,and having us on their border,so in their best interest they will concede and keep NK in check.

But during all of the saber ratteling with NK. we will be puting on a show for Iran,at which point they will be asking to be included in the talks
This saber ratteling is known as diplomacy in their world.
They recognize strength as a bargaining chip.
This is why I feel it is so important for the media and the left to keep quiet during this time.
It will give our enimies the illision that we are united
As I'm sure you noticed AlQuida uses every news item regarding demonstrations in our country to their benefit.
You would never have seen this display during
WW 2.

slacker
I actually agree with you and appreciate your open mind,but just because the article does'nt mention the past regarding NK.
Remember this is a discussion board,and all should be included as to the pertaining topic.
For us to understand the threat at hand.

If you wish to ignore my posts,so be it.
But that's what got us where we are today'Closed dialogue.

China will suffer from a nuclear DPRK
North Korea is surrounded by friendly nations that don't want to see the regime fall and the only adversary nation, Japan, is non-aggressive. Given that there is no other nuclear power so recklessly in violation of its obligations, it shall be the policy of this Nation to regard any detonation of a nuclear explosive on the United States or its allies as an attack by North Korea on the United States requiring a full retaliatory response upon North Korea. Those nations that want to see the Pyongyang government survive and the North Korean people prosper are free to do all they can to ensure that outcome. It is our view that Pyongyang has shown us it has sufficient resources to develop nuclear weapons. Ergo, it has sufficient resources to feed its own people.

The above statement should give pause to China and Iran. The Chinese have been unwilling to stop Kim and they are equally irresponsible in their relationship with Iran. China wants to be a superpower. Now they are. The reponsibility for what these two nations do is in their court. Any US attack on North Korea will have major repercussions on all nations in that area.

The US can't disarm the North Koreans and we shouldn't try. We are not to blame for the plight of the North Korean people. Those who have propped up this regime for the last half-century: Russia, China and South Korea, bear that responsibility. It's time to pass the ball to them.




Just some added info
http://www.thebulletin.org/index.htm

This is the web address of the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists and explains much more about the possession of weapons-grade plutonium that NK posseses now and prior to the agreement that r0-d2 has been referring to all day. The fact is that NK possessed enough weapons grade plutonium prior to Clintons input and probably added to it under that agreement. While r0-d2 relies on "facts" they are "facts" that are widely disputed by people with more knowledge on the subject than r0 possesses.

The problem is...
(I ask that everyone try to read this objectively, as that is the way I try to post this. Thank you!)

OK, focusing on what the latter posts have discussed, and I appreciate that we have changed back to the main focus, is what do we do to resolve a nuclear NK and a potential Iran in the future? And while this post talks about deterrence as the US policy, and I thank everyone for their opinions on this, this isn't just US policy that affects this situation.

Now, while strategic attacks would physically work (meaning it is apparent to all that the US has the capability, does not mean it will use), it could (and based on opinions from other countries, I would say a high probable) solidify in the international circles that we are "bullying" people with our will. We can't do that alone, and the diplomacy at the UN is the fact on that. The author's suggestion of deterrence is a hard line being drawn, and I support that. It gives the image of the US that we need, which is that we won't take this; at the same time, it's still leaving diplomacy as an option. We have to deal with the other countries that are being affected (China, Russia, South Korea, and Japan). As much as some Americans don't want to be in that arena at all, we're already involved.

Directly with North Korea, bi-lateral agreements MAY also be another option, but that is going basically on the thinking "Spare the rod, spoil the child." Even agreeing to the bi-lateral talks bolsters the NK's position that they are calling the shots. I don't know about anyone else out there, but I wouldn't want that in their propaganda machine. Could it stall for more time? I believe it could. But it will only stall the inevitable, and we need to find a more permanent solution for it.

The whole China discussion is something that has been going on longer and larger than this topic. Perhaps we could do more to push China to push North Korea a little more - but at the risk of turning them against us. As a country, we don't want that image - and the potential conflicts that could result from that. I would bet China knows that and that in this situation, it presents an opportunity for them.

South Korea and Japan? Well, because of the defense agreements with the two countries, we are being asked by the leadership of those two countries to stay there. Maybe you don't think they want us there? I'll try to find the sources, but I remember reading something about South Korea's government being concerned about too many US troops leaving the peninsula. Then you have Japan's agreement with the US currently requires us to defend Japan against any attack. So again, we're stuck on that end. And I can tell you, they've been worried about NK for a LONG time, and with good reason. That's reflected by Kim's threat to Japan after new sanctions this week.

As an American - again, this doesn't matter on party lines - we need to figure out a way to get to both get international support AND resolve the issues with NK and Iran. I would tend to believe that the current administration understands this very well. Sure, we can talk about this in any way, and we can question the policy. For better or worse, that's our right. But I would say to everyone, try to consider the alternative. Is it worth the bilateral talks and giving concessions to put another band-aid on the problem? And if you think so, why? North Korea has shown that diplomacy is not going to work, and time is only going to help them, not harm them. We need to do what we are, push a hard line while we build support and keep trying diplomacy. THAT is the sign of good leadership, and in this particular area, the administration is doing a good job. I don't see an easy solution on it, and it's time we all see that and support the best compromise. You may not like our president, but have any of us posting here been in that actual spot? We don't know it all, and to say that we do is foolish. So I would ask on this basis that we give some trust to the government that they have our best interests in mind. (Please do not try to connect other issues at mind from this administration here, I'm simply talking about this particular issue - Foreign policy in regards to North Korea and possible future policy towards Iran)

Now, if you want to talk about the plutonium or uranium, that's a separate issue. I want to check some more references such as trying to find the actual writing on the 1994 Framework, because I had read something that even the uranium would have been a violation. I also want to point out something about Slacker's comment - unless the US AS A WHOLE agrees to cut cash flow to China (such as a boycott) - they'll continue to play their game. We as a country are not saying anything to them either, and we've tried. I've got my own scary ideas about what China's up to, but that's an opinion better left for another time.

Thank you all for your attention and time.

Some links for Reading
If you guys are curious, here's some more information to feed the mind:

http://www.thenti.com/e_research/official_docs/inventory/pdfs/koreanuc.pdf
(North-South Joint Declaration on the Denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula)

http://www.iaea.org/Publications/Documents/Infcircs/Others/infcirc457.pdf
(Agreed Framework of 1994)

(The discussion about plutonium - While it is true that NK may not have done anything with this particular element - they were not allowed to enrich uranium either as agreed in the framework - and if I read correctly, that's what brought upon the original questioning to North Korea about breaking the agreement. Only after being questioned about this did NK reveal its weapons program.)

plutonium & cheating
I think USA believer is right about this. I don't follow the rest of his post or get much of a point out of it.

Anyway, if I remember, it was during routine inspections under the regime that had been established that the IEAE ran some covert tests (being cleverer scientists than the NK guys) and discovered physical evidence of cheating on the agreement.

When confronted with this and unable to deny it the NK guys said ok you got us red handed, we cheated and kicked the IEAE folks out and said don't come back.

Then the whole thing unraveled to the point we are at today from that point.

r0_d2
On Oct. 16, 2002 North Korean government officials admitted their country had secretly continued development of nuclear weapons in violation of a 1994 non-proliferation agreement with the United States.

I assume you are referring to Bush's response to the above.

On a roll
r0-d2 seems to be on roll. Maybe we should just leaving him twisting.

Twisting in the wind
r0_d2 writes: Friday, October, 13, 2006 11:08 AM
Mick7 - Wacker2
I have more IMPORTANT things to do and the smart people here really are more worried about CONTENT... ...

Whewwwwww. Has someone hit a nerve? Insomeone "twisting" in the wind? Yes, there are smart people here....smart people who have spent usually at least 12 years (elementary + HS)in school READING AND WRITING and HAVE LEARNED HOW TO SPELL. Very smart indeed, these people.

As to CONTENT, as you call it, after having seen you copy/paste the same thing 5 times, I really must question your CONTENT.


r0_d2
I gotta hand it to ya. At least you're consistant. 2 favorite words: SPEW & MOOK. Favorite tactic: Repeating the same tired statements over, and over, and over...
Perhaps Kim Jong Mentally-Il did start producing Plutonium when you said, perhaps not. It's rather immaterial the exact start date, but based on listening to the little twit over the years, the start date really has no bearing on anything. Could I prove this? No, but it is my contention that he would have started regardless. I really believe he threw a hissy fit when GW placed him in the same category as Iran & Iraq. He wants to see himself as a world leader, but since basically snubbed by US he decided to show the big bad American bully he's a player. Now, he can't back down without losing face.
Personally, I hope the AF is secretly perfecting the Nuke bunker buster. There are two really good test places if they are, just to make sure they work as advertised.
Sorry for the long post, but I really couldn't help myself. I wanted to give r0 something to spin up about so he uses his 2 favorite terms on me, as I don't want to feel left out anymore.

Taproot

Security Council
Frankly, I don't think anything can be resolved by the 6 party talks or by bilateral talks. I think that the UN Security Council should be given an ultimatum, not even with a threat to bomb NoKo, but if they don't resolve it by xxxx, the US will withdraw from the UN. As several people have stated here, NoKo's neighbors have the most to lose, so they are the ones that should solve the problem. Perhaps that will put the ball in the court it should have been a long time ago. As long as the US continues to carry the ball(load), China and Russia (at least) will not really do nor agree to anything. I think that this will not only get the Security Council's attention, but also that of the "little" countries that sat there and snickered while Chavez was trashing the US.

Updating MAD for the present situations
Congratulations are in order to Charles Krauthammer for broaching in the general media a genuine alternative strategy to address the nuclear weapon proliferation in North Korea and Iran. Contrary to his concern about the strategy being applied to both countries, Please be assured it can. However it probably needs to be pursued as a covert program with neither Iran or NK being told of the threat to the other nation.

FOWG’s worries about Iran not being deferrable because they look forward to death is probably true, but if true is indeed contrary to the teachings of Mohammed who always counseled backing off when faced with no reasonable possibility of victory.

The important part of the strategy is that these rogue regimes become immediately responsible for any nuclear detonation against out interests until they can verify that they have no nuclear weapons program. Following is the content of a letter I sent to President Bush a few days ago.

Cheers,
Old Nick


11 October 2006

Mr. President Bush,

Since it seems unlikely that we can advantageously go to war with either North Korea or Iran in the near future, I offer the following alternative strategy. This is a variation on the MAD strategy that served us so well during the Cold War.

This simple strategy adds a layer of uncertainty to our enemies calculations to convince them that verifiably renouncing nuclear weapons will be in their long term best interest. It does this by making each responsible for all detonations of these weapons in the U.S. regardless of the source or carrier of the weapon.

The strategy depends on a series of ordered steps each of which must be carefully carried out so that should our enemies have intelligence penetration at our highest levels they will find that the confidential communications from you are not a bluff.

The steps:

1) Make sure we have enough ballistic missile submarines a sea at all times to launch at least 200 independently targetable nuclear warheads,
2) Have the Navy develop 3 target lists; A) to place all warheads on locations vital to the existence of North Korea, B) place all warheads on locations vital to the functioning of Iran, and C) a list suitable for a simultaneous attack on both countries.
3) Have the Navy develop battle plans for the use of all 3 list and make list C the current default,
4) Select 10% of the targets on the A and B lists for revelation to each respective enemy.
5) Send Farsi and Korean speaking personal emissaries to explain the significance of the sub-lists -- individually, confidentially, and orally to several of the top leaders in Korea and Iran specifically including the top man,
6) The message will essentially be “Since the source of any nuclear device that is detonated in the territory of the United States or it’s Allies may be difficult to verify the United States will make the assumption that it came from you and immediately respond. The list I am handing you contains 10% of the locations within your country that our Armed Forces have default orders to destroy in our first attack wave in the event that a nuclear device is detonated by anyone in or over the territory or installations of the United States or it’s Allies. These orders are in place and will remain in place until we are able to absolutely verify with your complete and ongoing cooperation that you have no nuclear weapons and are not in a position to produce them.”
7) The existence of this strategy should be maintained as secret as possible and denied any time it is suggested that such a strategy is in place. In this way each enemy country may reasonably conclude that it is the only target. (It may be if the other country does not currently have the capability of producing a nuclear device).

It is very important to create the maximum uncertainty in each enemy so further explanations of the threat should not be provided. Additional discussion should only concern verification of their disarmament.

It’s a shame to fall back on a strategy that involves the potential deaths of millions of human beings – the guilty as well as the innocent, but our enemies leave us only the choice between this type of strategy and something even worse.

Partisans & S Koreans protesters
I thought that the Cindy Sheehan crowd were the preserve of the Dems. Looking at this thread, I see the GOP has them too! R2D2 made an undeniable point (even if given far too much significance by him. But admittedly its a great comeback to those who say Clinton was responsible, & v.v). He is a partisan, but so are more than a few of the posters here. He blamed Bush for NK, only after someone else blamed the Dems. He got into ad-hominems, but only after he was on the receiving end. He became respectful, when people treated him with respect. Do I agree with his general line or style? No.

We need to start getting away from the idea that a certain President was responsible for something as monumental a development as NK & nukes, or 9/11. People who peddle that line belong in the cave man days when every event under the sun could be attributed to this or that god (president). Themes like the following are pathetic. Note the emphases both place on the president "at fault":

"I will place blame where it squarely belongs,for we would not be here discusing this debacle today if not for CLINTON." (Yeah! Burn him at the stake!!!)(in fairness to Solar, he initially said that one needed to go back earlier than Clinton to understand the present predicament)

and

"So again, AS I SAID, BUSH LET US DOWN!!" (Yeah, Die, Witch!!!)

We are all experts in hindsight, unlike the sitting president who has to deal with the here and now & try to keep everyone happy, not only inside & outisde the country (UN), but also the folks present & future. He is on a razor's edge.

Good to see some responsible posters from both sides come to the fore & bring the argument back to WHAT DO WE DO WITH NK NOW? Wonder what R2's theory there is. For all his posts, he didn't seem interested in such a minor thing as that.

For my 2 pennies worth, insist S Korea hold a referendum on whether USA should stay or leave. It's easy to be an (anti-US) "peace" protester when the US are protecting you. Not so easy when you have to defend yourself. Let's see what those cowardly S Korean protesters really think.

Tom
Not quite clear what you were getting at in a couple of paragraphs,but the point I tried to make to r2d2,was NK. was throwing a tantrum because no one was paying attention.
Then Clinton thought it would be a good idea to apease the little pygmy.
This was why I was blaming Clinton,everyone living human knows you do not give a spoiled child what they want.
Nor,do you give in to a lying black mailer.
Which is why I said look at the history prior to Clinton.
Had he looked he would have found,ignoring him was working quite well,kind of.
Now he is center stage,and using the publicity like a club.
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