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Wednesday, March 28, 2007
Dana Joel Gattuso :: Townhall.com Columnist
Chilling Intolerance for Free Speech on Global Warming
by Dana Joel Gattuso
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Do you feel the leaked information from a global warming alarmist organization is meaningful?



"When we've finally gotten serious about global warming, when the impacts are really hitting us and we're in a full worldwide scramble to minimize the damage, we should have war crimes trials for these bastards - some sort of climate Nuremberg." -David Roberts, Gristmill, Grist Magazine, September 19, 2006

So said Grist Magazine staff writer David Roberts of those who question looming global warming doom. They are war criminals and should be tried and prosecuted the same way as Nazi Germany leaders. In his words, global warming doubters "have blood on their hands" and are "morally if not legally, criminals."

Less abrasive were the recent remarks of British Energy Minister Malcolm Wicks who, after announcing to a gathering of environment ministers that "humankind is in a race for life against global warming," called doubters "the equivalent of the Flat Earth Society."

And so goes the nature of the debate on the complex issue of global climate change-not so complex for those who know without question that humans are destroying planet Earth. The debate is now over, according to the world's top science experts Al Gore and Britain's environmental minister. Those who question if that's a fact are no longer simply nay-sayers or skeptics. They are flat-earthers, "known liars," and war criminals.

Worse than the name-calling, environmentalists, the media, and even scientists are attempting to stifle other scientists with differing opinions on climate change. Last fall, staff members of the Sierra Club in Charlotte, North Carolina blasted the museum Discovery Place for bringing in Richard Lindzen, a distinguished professor of atmospheric sciences at MIT, to speak on the uncertainties of global warming.

The Charlotte Observer showed similar disdain for differing points of view. The paper devoted a mere 252 words to Dr. Lindzen's two-hour lecture. Yet the paper's editorial, which scolded the museum for playing "partisan politics," ran 426 words.

Interestingly, the Charlotte Observer did end up running some, albeit unplanned, text the following day. Turns out the editorial's claim-and premise-that the forum was "sponsored by a politician with an anti-global warming agenda" who influences the museum's budget was inaccurate. The "clarification" said that the event was actually sponsored by the Charlotte Area Science Network and the science society Sigma Xi, and that the noted politician's foundation "didn't sponsor the museum forum." Oops.

Intolerance for opposing views could also describe James Hansen, director of NASA's Goddard Institute of Space Studies, when he failed to show up at a House Government Reform Committee's hearing on global warming last July. By his own admission, Hansen "would have gotten out of his sickbed to testify to Congress... if they were ready to deal responsibly with the matter. But obviously they are still in denial, inviting contrarians to 'balance' the science of global warming."

The "contrarian" Hansen referred to, Dr. John Christy, is director of the Earth System Science Center at the University of Alabama and a panelist on the National Academy of Science's report on temperature reconstructions. His testimony covered research he has conducted on the effect that land use and urbanization have on temperature change, and the observed "shortcomings" of climate models to reflect these effects.

This un-classy display of intolerance was topped last September when Dr. Hansen reported to the Denver Post that "Some of this noise won't stop until some of these scientists are dead."

Could there be truth to John Stuart Mill's line from On Liberty: "If any opinion is compelled to silence, that opinion may, for aught we can certainly know, be true"?

The field of science is all about inquiry. Intolerance for questioning or even engaging in debate suggests a fear that a theory or hypothesis is not up to the test. Without challenging theories, we accept as doctrine that the Earth is flat, or that the sun revolves around the Earth-or that, as Al Gore tells us, "the survival of our civilization is at stake."

Climate change is an immensely complex issue. While there is agreement among scientists that warming is occurring and human activity may be partly responsible, how much warming and how much of it is from anthropogenic causes is widely disputed.

For one thing, scientists are learning that global climate change is nothing new. The Earth has experienced global climate swings far more extreme than what we are experiencing now, long before man began releasing greenhouse gases-in fact, long before man existed.

As the Washington Post reports on an article in Geology, new research shows that 120 million years ago, when dinosaurs roamed the Earth, ocean surface temperatures varied as much as 11 degrees Fahrenheit. Scientists from Indiana University Bloomington and the Royal Netherlands Institute for Sea Research made the discovery studying ancient rocks from the bottom of the Pacific Ocean. Extreme temperature changes were previously known from data on rocks below the Atlantic Ocean, but this was the first study on the Pacific during the same period, showing the magnitude of climate change.

Commenting on the impact the new findings have on today's issue, lead researcher Simon Brassell says: "One of the key challenges for us is trying to predict climate change. If there are big inherent fluctuations in the system, as paleoclimate studies are showing, it could make determining Earth's climatic future even harder than it is. We're learning our climate, throughout time, has been a wild beast."

The study is just one example of the growing importance of paleoclimatology-the study of climate activity from ancient fossils-in understanding today's climate change. Key to the debate is whether naturally-created carbon dioxide played a dominant role in affecting climate change or whether natural variations like sea currents, cosmic rays, and sun activity contributed largely.

According to an article in the New York Times, "The discoveries [in paleoclimatology] have stirred a little-known dispute that, if resolved, could have major implications... One side foresees a looming crisis of planetary heating; the other, temperature increases that would be more nuisance than catastrophe."

But we don't hear much about it from global warming pundits because there's little consensus. The New York Times: "The Phanerozoic dispute, fought mainly in scholarly journals and scientific meetings, has occurred in isolation from the public debate on global warming. Al Gore in 'An Inconvenient Truth' makes no mention of it."

But then, shouldn't the New York Times be silenced-or even tried in a war crimes tribunal-for its "noise" on the global warming debate?

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About The Author

Dana Joel Gattuso is at the National Center for Public Policy Research as a Senior Fellow.

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GW on Mars caused by dust storms...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/space/20070404/sc_space/duststormsfuelglobalwarmingonmars

"Shifting dust storms on Mars might be contributing to global warming there that is shrinking the planet's southern polar ice caps, scientists say.

Computer simulations similar to those used to predict weather here on Earth show that the bright, windblown dust and sand particles affects Mars' albedo-the amount of sunlight reflected from the planet's surface.

The research, detailed in the April 5 issue of the journal Nature, suggests these albedo variations play an important role in the climate of Mars. It could also potentially explain how global dust storms are triggered on the red planet.

A darkening world

Researchers from
NASA and the
U.S. Geological Survey fed two albedo maps of the Martian surface into a computer model called the Mars general circulation model (MGCM).

The model calculated the surface temperature and wind intensity on Mars at the times the maps were made. Both maps show the same area on Mars, but one was made using Viking data collected in the late 1970s, while the other was created with Mars Global Surveyor data collected in recent years.

Across the past two decades, the model showed the surface temperature of Mars has increased by about 0.65 degrees Celsius (1.17 degrees Fahrenheit).

'That magnitude of change is comparable to what we've estimated for global warming on Earth over the last 100 years,' said study participant Paul Geissler of the USGS."


C'mon, the liberals must be able to explain how humans cause dust storms on Mars?!?


http://www.townhall.com/News/NewsArticle.aspx?ContentGuid=37209de8-99a4-4e27-b1e6-ecbfcf282a93&page=full&comments=true#commentAnchor

This one is pathetic too. Associated Press Science Writer Seth Borenstein didn't even bother mentioning the opposition. Typical...

"Victory for the Bad Guys"
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?Page=/Nation/archive/200704/NAT20070402c.html

"Global Warming Ruling Called 'Victory for the Bad Guys'
By Melanie Hunter and Monisha Bansal
CNSNews.com Senior Editor and Staff Writer
April 02, 2007

(CNSNews.com) - Global warming skeptics reacted strongly Monday to a Supreme Court ruling that the Environmental Protection Agency has the power to regulate carbon dioxide (CO2) emissions from cars, calling the decision "bad news" for the country and predicting that the economic fallout will be "vast."

In the first case of its kind to reach the high court, the Supreme Court ruled that the Clean Air Act gives the EPA the power to regulate greenhouse gases and that the agency has "no reasoned explanation" for not doing so.

"Because greenhouse gases fit well within the Clean Air Act's capacious definition of 'air pollutant' we hold that EPA has the statutory authority to regulate the emission of such gases from new motor vehicles," the court said.

"While we are still reviewing the case for its regulatory implications, having the authority to regulate C02 as a pollutant and justifying that authority are two different things," Marc Morano, spokesman for Sen. James Inhofe (R-Okla.), ranking member of the Senate Environment and Public Works Committee, told Cybercast News Service.

"CO2 is not an air pollutant and should not be treated as one," Morano added."



This, like Kilo and Raisch, was poorly decided.

CO2 again
I heard on the car radio about an hour ago that SCOTUS ruled that the govt can set limits on CO2; sort of reminds me of the judge in Illinois who ruled that dogs were not allowed to bark after 10 PM (so how does one communicate that to the dog?).

SCOTUS has issued rulings before on subjects they knew nothing about; back in the 70's they arbitrarily ruled that alcoholism was not an illness (rejecting medical evidence) for example.

Regulating CO2 emissions is a fool's errand; while it is true that plants breathe in CO2 and give off oxygen during the day the opposite is true at night (this is why sleeping in a room with a lot of plants is not a good idea). People and animals breathe in oxygen ahd give off CO2 at all times while living; then decomposition produces methane but that's another story.

At any rate, because CO2 is heavier than air and settles to earth it would not be possible to generate enough CO2 to cause climate change. Not only would all human and animal life be smothered but combustion of fuels would also be snuffed out so the process could be termed self-limiting although there would be no witnesses. And by that time the CO2 would still not be high enough in elevation to have any effect on climate.


dyerje
I think they're trying to outlaw humanity. We exhale CO2. If cows emit more CO2 than all transportation combined, then how much can really be done by requiring SUVs to get a few more MPG? What's next, catalytic converters for cows? Cow bans? Man-made GW is junk science.

http://www.junkscience.com/


Of course!
Just OUTLAW CO2 and there won't be any more. After all, it works that way with guns.

Oh my...
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=070402160408.i1mdzqip&show_article=1

"Government must deal with greenhouse gases: US Supreme Court

The US Supreme Court ruled Monday that the Environmental Protection Agency must consider greenhouse gases as pollutants, in a blow to the White House.

"Because greenhouse gases fit well within the Clean Air Act's capacious definition of 'air pollutant' we hold that EPA has the statutory authority to regulate the emission of such gases from new motor vehicles," the court ruled.

Led by Massachusetts, a dozen states along with several US cities and environmental groups went to the courts to determine whether the agency had the authority to regulate greenhouse gases such as carbon dioxide emissions.

"The harms associated with climate change are serious and well recognized," said judge John Paul Stevens as the ruling was carried by five votes in favor to four against.

The Republican administration of US President George W. Bush has fiercely opposed any imposition of binding greenhouse limits on the nation's industry."



EnvironMENTAL whacksjobs win one...


climatescam.com

JC
"Global warming is happening-- fast!
There is no debate on global warming. "

The sky is not falling...

Global warming is happening-- fast!
There is no debate on global warming.

It's happening, and it's happening much faster than most scientists thought possible.

It threatens not our way of life-- but the possibility of life at all-- on this planet.

See how you do on the global warming quiz:
http://www.audubon.org/globalWarming/quiz1.php

Act today to stop the worst effects:
http://www.stopglobalwarming.org

See how climate will change in U.S. over next 20 years:
http://www.ucsusa.org/greatlakes/glimpactmigrating.html

Find out what else you can do:
http://www.theweathermakers.com/globalwarming/

Pappy Michael
"You can get you Carbon Offsets for the low, low price of....."

For the price of $6USD for cat farts, you can offset your whole granny for $8USD


http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20670001&refer=columnist_mukherjee&sid=a6JuMPizIG6o

"Governments in rich nations are spending billions of dollars to buy a clearer conscience over climate change. Are they getting their money's worth?

Enlightened individuals, those who stay awake at nights wondering what they can do to prevent the polar caps from melting, at least have a growing menu of choices.

Sydney-based Easy Being Green says it will mitigate your cat's flatulent contribution to global warming for A$8 ($6). The same company could also make your granny ``carbon-neutral'' at A$10 a year, according to a report in the Australian newspaper last weekend."


You didn't think he was kidding, did you?

What is Wrong With

You People ?!?!?!?

Al Gore said the Debate is over !

That's final !

You can get you Carbon Offsets for the low, low price of.....

throws BrianR a fish
You guys remind me of that original Star Trek episode with the two guys fighting (Frank Gorshin who was some character on batman , maybe the riddler)

There is no difference between democrats and republicans and you act like it's such a huge deal. This country goes on in exactly the same way no matter who's in office. Those dumb Christians haven't caught on after 2o years, the republicans have no intention of changing abortion and couldn't if they wanted because it's been in effect to long. Yea we're hundreds of billions in the hole and we lost 3000 GI's but dammit at least gays can't marry. GO GEORG Environmentalists still follow the democrats around like groupies despite the fact they never actually do anything. They can ban the shooting of certain owls - but that's about it.

And what a q u e e r lot of republicans who see only expense if new environmental rules are enacted. Ronald Reagan would see opportunity for huge new industries, which doesn't have any worries about expense - you and I pay every penny of that plus they build in a few pennies of profit. What kind of republicans are you anyway? But on the other hand we can see how rising prices nearly destroyed the oil companies.

GW debate
I thought science was supposed to be a discipline of questioning, observations, proposing hypotheses and theories, conducting experiments and measuring results. It also should demonstrate willingness to discard and/or alter theories when the observation and experimentation phase requires it. Those who accept global warming these days sound more like religious fanatics who tolerate no debate because their minds are made up and those of us who disagree are as bad as if not worse than Holocaust deniers. This article also seems to suggest that we are so evil that we should be tried as war criminals. The way this debate is going scares me and should scare all freedom loving people.

oops...
Wrong column...

I need to take a break and eat dinner or something. :D

BrianR
It's not just the libs that ran away, some of the homophobes did too. Win-Win! :D

Ah, man, this bums me out!
There hasn't been a post here for like THREE HOURS!

Why am I keeping this page OPEN?!?

How come every time the libs get their butts kicked on this issue, they just kinda scurry away, and leave all of us folks with facts and logic on our side HANGING?

I mean, like...., where's the entertainment factor in, like, THAT?


tnmccoy
"For a more detailed discussion of this subject treatment, please see my blog. Just click on my underlined name above."
I never visit blogs spammed in other people's columns. It just encourages the spammers. :D

Knut's Destruction of Pandas!
No, I'm not off topic. I just put that in the lead to get attention.

It has been, is, and probably always will be a given for Liberals to be intolerant. This creates an especially horrid frame of mind when their mindless energies are fueled by the wrong premises---a normal occurrence in our lives.

I say let the Liberals drive their hybrids. I'd rather be in an SUV when faced with a 'me-vs-semi' duel on the highway. At that point, greenhouse gases and pollution would be farthest from my mind. But, I'd probably survive to live another day while a Liberal in the same situation would die happy, knowing he/she reduced a carbon footprint. Wait!! All Liberals don't drive hybrids or electric cars. Many of them, especially in Hollywood, use gas guzzling limos and other expensive, low-mileage cars. Like Al Gore, do as I say not as I do.

Published in the journal Nature today is an article: The Delayed Rise of Present-Day Mammals. Now, I haven't read the original article because I'm not about to shell out $30 to do so. So, I have to rely on other sources. But since I read many of them, I think I can grasp the main points of the writing.

This article has some fascinating information, not all of which has been presented in the main-stream media. The London Telegram, Forbes Magazine, and the San Francisco Chronicle are similar in their coverage of the article. They appear to present a relatively balanced portrait of the Nature article, including the references to the "sudden increase in temperature" and "Cenozoic Thermal Maximum." The New York Times, Boston Globe, and ABC Online are similar---but only to each other in their pointed refusal to mention the scientists' discussion of past global warming and cooling.

Well...here we go again.

For a more detailed discussion of this subject treatment, please see my blog. Just click on my underlined name above.

Marlin Newburn
It's their shared socialist utopian delusion.

"Reality, what a concept." -- Robin Williams

Let's see...
In the seventies, there was Paul Ehrlich who said that there would be world-wide famine within 10 years. He kept moving the dates up until he finally shut his mouth -- without admitting his delusions.

Then, in the eighties, there was the threat of a coming, "little ice age". Gee whiz, not a glacier in sight.

Now, we have this biggest pretend tragedy about to unfold; global warming. Beach front property for everyone!

But to those working hard in the land of invented catastrophies, a real threat to our existence, radical Islam, is considered a small problem that can be negotiated away. International group hug time!

Even at the risk of looking like absolute adolescent fools, the left will stop at nothing in order to end freedom and democracy -- or at least severely limit both. They are truly stricken with "the fatal conceit".

Americans are
This complaint "Americans are over paid, over sexed and over here" was usually voiced by the Britsh men.

Patriot
That goes back a little way.
My Dad was in England while I was in the Pacific.
He said the Brits main complaint about Americans was;
Americans are over paid, over sexed and over here.

Science and Engineering
From Kicking the Sacred Cow by James P. Hogan

"So today, I reserve the aphorism for engineering. You can fool yourself if you want, and you can fool as many as will follow for as long as you can get away with it. But you can't fool reality. If your design is wrong, your plane won't fly. Engineers don't have the time or the inclination for highfalutin' theories. In fact, over-elaborate theories that try to reach too far, I'm beginning to suspect, might be the biggest single menace affecting science."

"Whatever science might be as an ideal, scientists turn out to be as human as anyone else, and they can be as obstinate as anyone else when comfortable beliefs solidify into dogma. Scientists have emotions—often expressed passionately, despite the myths—and can be as ingenious as any senator at rationalizing when a reputation or a lifetime's work is perceived to be threatened. They value prestige and security no less than anyone else, which inevitably fosters convergences of interests with political agendas that control where the money and the jobs come from. And far from least, scientists are members of a social structure with its own system of accepted norms and rewards, commanding loyalties that at times can approach fanaticism, and with rejection and ostracism being the ultimate unthinkable."

"The factors bringing this about are various. Massive growth of government funding and the direction of science since World War II have produced symbiotic institutions which, like the medieval European Church, sell out to the political power structure as purveyors of received truth in return for protection, patronage, and prestige. Sometimes vested commercial interests call the tune. In areas where passions run high, ideology and prejudice find it easy to prevail over objectivity. Academic turf, like any other, is defended against usurpers and outside invasion. Some readily trade the anonymity and drudgery of the laboratory for visibility as celebrities in the public limelight. Peer pressure, professional image, and the simple reluctance to admit that one was wrong can produce the same effects at the collective level as they do on individuals."

BrianR
"It's interesting, that the Brits seem to be getting pretty fed up with a lot of their socialism-oriented experimentation.

It's about time."

A lot of them will deny they're socialist at all, while supporting socialist ideals. I don't know that they are coming around. Socialism is also one of the primary driving forces of anti-Americanism and there's plenty of that there too. *shrug*

MyOpine: Correct
It's interesting, that the Brits seem to be getting pretty fed up with a lot of their socialism-oriented experimentation.

It's about time.


BrianR
You mean you don't want a Green Tax like England?
It's beginning to look like England is fed up with it too.

Remember Algore's BTU tax?
Sorta the same thing hunh?

BrianR
I think it's pretty evident but much of the left would deny it.

There is small portion of the left that actually believes that humans are to blame for everything bad in the world. There are whackjobs that think animals are more important than humans. I just think Darwin needs to catch up to the left. Socialism is slavery.

Directly or indirectly, of course
.

Patriot: re wealth redistribution
Well, yeah, I think that's pretty self-evident.

I mean, what ax do the libs have to grind here, other than their usual blather that invariably ends up taking money from working Americans and giving it to non-working everybody else in the world?


BrianR
"What other alignment could you expect?"
Well not Democrat/Republican but, more generally, socialist/capitalist. Man-Made GW is part of the global socialist redistribution of wealth ponzi scheme, IMHO.



dyerje:
"I wouldn't want to assert as a scientific fact, though, that man-made effects have no impact on global warming -- or at least on the climate, generically. I don't think we know that for sure.

The point for me is that there is no documented evidence for the converse claim."

That's what I said. I've seen nothing to suggest that humans impact global climate, long term, at all. ;)

OK, I am now playing the race card
The vast majority of people who support the CO2 caused Global Warming are white racists. They are using this to suppress the Africans advancement in the world community by denying them cheap energy.

Patriot
And you may be right that there is no human influence on global warming. Research in the 1990s and 2000s suggests that sun activity and its impact on the penetration of ultraviolet cosmic rays correlate much better with temperature fluctuations on earth than anything else.

I wouldn't want to assert as a scientific fact, though, that man-made effects have no impact on global warming -- or at least on the climate, generically. I don't think we know that for sure.

The point for me is that there is no documented evidence for the converse claim. There is theory, modelling, and extrapolation. When the models are used against historical climate observations (hindcasting), they don't "predict" what actually happened. AGW advocates have never, as far as I know, explained this in a reasonable, verifiable, independently replicable way.

Instead they say You are stupid You are a shill They are shills Humongous Incredible Scientific Consensus Bush hatred Nazis Cheney Halliburton You are stupid.

Lolo: Bah!
Science is over-rated.

I'm a civil engineer. Now, we engineers all know all the equations on the stress loads of concrete and steel, lateral forces, seismic event factors... all of that pesky stuff we learned in college.

But we don't let that interfere with anything when we're designing and building those large structures. Why should we?

Hey, if some framer has an idea he wants to pitch, we'll sit right down and listen to him. You never know, the owner may want to save some bucks on the concrete rebar or something. We need to give that a listen! After all, he's paying the bill!

Then we take a vote. If the vote says "leave out the rebar", well.... Why not? Who needs all that steel in a building, anyway?


Gotta tell You
The potatoe threads on this board have made me spew coffee and laugh out loud! Thanks for brightening my day. And thanks to the scientists on this board since I work in the land of pseudo science...economics. Part science/part gambling.

Patriot re" MyOpine...
... actually it's not strange. Most Repubs and conservatives are fact-based. The supporting facts for AGW aren't there. Lefties are emotion-driven, facts be damned. AGW hysteria gives them the opportunity to impose another layer of government control over people's lives.

What other alignment could you expect?

MyOpine
"Strange that only Republicans are wise enough to see through the AGW Hoax?"

Mostly but not completely. Even some europeon scientists are debunking the hoax, they certainly are not Republicans.

Bribery & Extortion prove only one thing
If the AGW Scam was real there would be no need to bribe or threaten anyone. The fact that perpetrators of the AGW Hoax resort to threats and bribery brings into question the reason any Scientist would concur with the AGW Theory.
Is every scientist who concured with AGW a coward who fears offending the AGW fanatics?
Or is every scientist who concurs a prostitute who sells his science for Grant money?
In either case, it proves beyond any doubt AGW is a hoax.

Strange that only Republicans are wise enough to see through the AGW Hoax?
All Democrats will not profit from Algore's Carbon Credits Scam. Why would any Democrat risk his reputation on a lie that has already been exposed?
Are ALL Democrats Communist "One Worlders"?
Or are all Democrats mental retards?

law of unintended consequences
The left never seems to learn exactly what that is. During the oil embargo alternative fuels and engines were coming out at mach five. Dimmicrat Carter confiscated and banned them. The left successfully propagandized against nuclear energy, now we almost have no nuclear energy that is cheap and clean. They did campaign for the rainforest, now plastic bags are politically incorrect and banned completely in S.F. Now they are screaming global warming and planting trees. So what's next? Lumber will get cheap again, more building will take place, population will expand, and voila...more carbon output. Too bad we won't be able to feed them because emit more carbon and farmland is going to producing ethanol. At least that have something new complain about...STARVATION! This whole thing is like having one foot nailed to the floor.

Lolo
"As to the debate I find it increasingly disturbing the left is ever employing more and more Stalinist tactics, and not just on this subject."

Unfortunately, it's not new, that's what socialists do. :(

ymml - makes me laugh
let's all think about the entire governmental big science. they control the purse strings and supports research that appears promising.

the premise is that there is human caused global warming. scientist #1 does research and does not find the effect. consequently he is not funded for a follow-on since his research is a dead-end. scientist #2 sees this and performs research that coincidently indicates that there is human effect on global warming.

since the government is paying for results that show GW, which way do you think that the scientists experiments, results and conclusions are going to fall -- on the GW side of course! all this gov't supported research has shown is that science can be bought for a price.

we have to stop thinking of scientists as these pure and ethical people. they are lawyers in labcoats!

BrianR
"Stop trying to confuse the debate with facts."

If I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times. "They can't be bothered with fact nor reason, it only confuses them." So true.

Gore
Why doesn't Al Gore just stand out on the corner holding a sign that says "The End is Near!" He proves P.T. Barnum right..."There's a sucker born every minute!" As to the debate I find it increasingly disturbing the left is ever employing more and more Stalinist tactics, and not just on this subject.

Patriot
Stop trying to confuse the debate with facts.

BrianR
The increased solar activity is, most likely, the real cause of GW in our solar system, IMHO. When solar activity is increased, more CO2 is released from the oceans. When it decreases, the oceans absorb more CO2.


He11, Patriot!
It's happening on the SUN, too!

I don't think we're having any impact at all there.

dyerje
"I personally think it's possible that man has contributed, by some yet-undetermined percentage, to the current global warming phenomenon, which also -- and primarily -- fits a trend in warming and cooling that appears to go back at least a million years. (Some scientists think 500 million years.)"

I don't see how humans contributed to GW since it's also happening on Mars. I've seen no evidence (other than emotional) that humans have any impact, long term. Sure, if we had a nuclear war, that might have a short term impact but, despite All Sore's blatherings, The Earth is not a baby that needs to be taken to a Dr. for a fever. Mother Nature, can fend for herself. The Earth takes care of itself when there are earthquakes, fires, volcanic erruptions and even humans.

celtic-dragon
"Causiality is still open to some debate, although there is s distinct correlation between carbon dioxide and warmer temps."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XttV2C6B8pU

Correlation does not equal causality. If you watched the youtube video I linked (Great Global Warming Swindle) you'd know that Gore/chicken little lied, CO2 does not cause temps to rise, it's the opposite. Warmer temps cause CO2 to rise, which negates the possibility of man-made GW being *caused* by CO2.



youmakemelaugh2
This is the same tactic always used by the left.

"These people had real jobs and worked in conjunction with corporations. Therefor they can never be believed. (Until they agree with me, of course)."

Stupid is as stupid does and saying everyone is a shill for corporations is just stupid.

SteveO
Bingo! Advance six spaces...

Outta here...

beowulfe
... you are clearly a shill for Exxon. QED

Incidentally, if you check out my response to ymml2, you'll see that he's demonstrably all wet, even without the counterargument about the meaning of who funds what.

I've never encountered a man-made-global-warming believer who actually offered arguments based on documented observation and analysis. I'd love to encounter one, because there are unanswered questions out there, like whether or how much we should be concerned about the exponential increase in CO2 emissions that we can, soberly, expect in the next 100 years.

(It's interesting to note that Exxon is funding -- $100 million -- Stanford researchers who are looking for ways to better capture and reprocess or "bury" CO2 from fossil fuels.)

But when you note that ice core and tree ring research demonstrates that CO2 does not PRECEDE, but rather LAGS, global warming periods -- by 400-500 years -- in other words, CO2 hasn't been proven to CAUSE seminal warming -- AGW advocates can't seem to present a reasonable argument against the science of these findings.

Instead a predictable litany begins:

A. You are stupid

B. Your citations are of people and organizations funded by Big Oil

C. You are stupid

D. There is a gigantic, super-galactic scientific consensus that global warming is man-made

E. You are stupid

F. You don't care about the environment, animals, plants, life on earth, refugees in Sudan, troops in Iraq... Bush lied, troops died... Warpublicans... Halliburton... Cheney should rot in he11...

G. You are stupid

I personally think it's possible that man has contributed, by some yet-undetermined percentage, to the current global warming phenomenon, which also -- and primarily -- fits a trend in warming and cooling that appears to go back at least a million years. (Some scientists think 500 million years.)

But I don't trust anyone who won't give me a straight, logical answer to tell me what, if anything, man needs to do about this.

Old Sarge,
The only way to get rid of the toxic potatoes is to smash them up and digest them. I will do my part tonight.

From Mike's comment before,
Mike said:
"the biggest advocates for the drastic economic changes are not scientists but advocates and activists."

Many people are in fact convinced of the alarmist position based either on their own reading of the evidence, or because they're siding with a trusted expert. And Liberals have always wanted to save the Earth.

But if they want to be completely honest, they must acknowledge certain facts. This issue has been glommed onto by enemies our America for the sole purpose that it will weaken us economically. Others have a huge financial stake or can potentially make a lot of money. Politicians stand to become very, very powerful. Companies will have $Billions at stake. Any allocation process will be arbitrary. Voters seem content to elect known crooks and corrupt officials like William The Refrigerator (provided they are Democrats).

It's the perfect storm of politics. Is it a surprise that Democrat politicians are in favor of this?

If the alarmists are so keen on this issue, they can prove it by supporting nuclear power. As it is, I think they are either not sincere, or are just plain dumb.

dyerje,
dyerje, you say:
"Of course there's been a warming trend since 1850, when the globe was coming off the "Little Ice Age." I don't know of ANY mainstream scientists who say there hasn't been."

---> That comment is going to stay with me. I'm not a scientist, I'm a Finance guy. You want to show a good financial return? Start from the bottom of the last trough.



toxic potatoes
Perhaps some of you still have doubts about the toxic potatoe theory and the cover-up by big business... I live in IDAHO, in the very HEART of the evil plot. That makes me an expert on everything to do with potatoes... Send money NOW!!!

toxic potatoes
You people are not displaying a proper sense of urgency as regards the toxic potatoe plague.

Severe legislation will be imposed on any and all toxic potatoe deniers. You have been warned!!

RE: utahnotmormon
">Muslim jihadists are real, man-made GW is not.<

How can you condemn liberals when you do exactly as they do?"

Muslim jihadists are responsible for knocking down two buildings in New York City.

On the other hand, I had a foot of white "global warming" that I had to shovel out of my driveway last week.

I'm going to re-post...
... from yesterday's column on the same topic:

Interesting to note
Galileo, Socrates, Copernicus, many others... All were considered scientific heretics in their time. They were forced to recant their theories, excommunicated, imprisoned, forced to drink hemlock, etc.

Yet all were right!

But the "established scientific communities" of their respective times were threatened by the possibility of a frank and open discussion of these men's theories. Their orthodoxies couldn't stand open scrutiny, and their power was in jeopardy. The "scientific" dogma of their eras allowed them to assert enormous control over their respective societies, in most cases through religious fiat.

That is exactly what's happening today: modern dogma is that mankind causes climatological change, and challenge to that orthodoxy is simply unacceptable, and for exactly the same reasons as all throughout history.

With very similar threatened consequences.

RE: youmakemelaugh2
"Heartland Institute has received $561,500 from ExxonMobil since 1998."

Just last year alone, Exxon/Mobile donated $250,000 to Habitat for Humanity. I guess that makes Jimmy Carter a shill for Big Oil, eh?

Oh, and how about you talk about the $5 BILLION that our US government alone gave just last year to the alarmists? Or how about talk about to the hundreds of millions of dollars donated by GE, BP, Duke Electric, and DuPont to the alarmists? Or why not mention that the #1 backer in the corporate world for Kyoto was **ENRON**?

Don't give me this "they're all shills for the oil companies" BS. By the measures YOU YOURSELF have defined, the alarmists are far, far worse -- so bad that the word "shill" just doesn't cover it.

RE: johninoregon
"Ever notice how Richard Lindzen, together with four or five other scientists, is mentioned over and over in conservative op-ed pieces on global warming? That would be because the vast majority of climate scientists are now on the other side."

As I've pointed out MANY times, this is simply a lie. Repeating a lie over and over and over does NOT (contrary to your belief) suddenly make it true.

The lastu survey of experts in the field found under 10% of them really believe that human activity is the biggest contributor to global warming, and only about 22% believe that the IPCC reports accurately describe the "consensus" view of global warming.

Hmmmmmm.
Wasn't it the left that taught us to "question authority"?

Now, those who question the left's dogma are labeled "deniers".


Old Sarge: LOL
That's great!

I also have a study that proves mother's milk leads to drug addiction, as over 90% of drug addicts started on mother's milk.

Hey! Being a lib is great!


Poor youmakemelaugh2
Read the full article, dear.

The Heartland website was reporting on a study done by a British academic (Dr. Benny Peiser, a senior lecturer in the science faculty at Liverpool John Moores University), whose original study findings were reported by the London Times.

Peiser also reviewed separately the 928 scientific papers reviewed by Dr. Naomi Oreskes for her 2004 Science article claiming that all 928 endorsed the analysis that modern climate change is man-made. Peiser's conclusion was that 34 of the same articles explicitly rejected or doubted man-made global warming, with 13 of the 928 explicitly endorsing man-made global warming.

Next you're going to tell me there's a "Factsheet" on Benny Peiser at the website exxonsecrets.org. This factsheet does not claim that Exxon funds Peiser in any way,
however. Given the guiding principle of the website, one can reasonably deduce that it certainly WOULD claim Peiser is funded by Exxon, if it could.

Or perhaps you're going to triumphally point out that Peiser is not a climatologist but a social anthropologist, who studies climate and the environment as they affect humans. This would, of course, have no bearing on his reading comprehension, which is all he would need to tote up the information in survey responses, or count the number of scientific community articles that reject or endorse man-made global warming.

Possibly you will join the anti-Peiser postings at various websites, in pointing out that he agrees there's global warming -- as if that is in conflict with his reported findings on the scientific "consensus."

Bait and switch won't work here. Of course there's been a warming trend since 1850, when the globe was coming off the "Little Ice Age." I don't know of ANY mainstream scientists who say there hasn't been.

What so-called "skeptics" question is how much of that warming has been induced by man, whether man's activities can arrest it, how warm it's likely to get, and whether predictions of catastrophe and cataclysm are supportable by actual observation and analysis.

If all you can do when people ask these questions is make fun of them, and point out that Exxon funded some website that was quoting an unrelated scientist's academic findings -- well, you may not understand why I don't find that a reasonable answer. But others will.

Logical Fallacy
Potatoes are toxic and deadly. I can prove it! Data compiled from autopsy and death certificates from the last 100 years show conclusively that 98% of the people who died, had consumed potatoes or potatoe containing products within 30 days of their death!!!

Why is this evil conspiracy allowed to continue? The evil potatoe lobby SELLS the product and actually makes PROFIT from the death of millions of Americans... Further proof is unnecessary.

THE DEBATE IS OVER!!! Potatoes must be banned or rendered harmless. I have a product that will mitigate all the toxic effects of potatoes. Send me money for my "Toxic Potatoe Mitigater". If you don't comply immediately you are stupid, dangerous and need to be exterminated.

Oregeon John
There is no such thing as Green Captialism -there is capitalism, socialism, and market socialism. If the Feds mandate that everyone must install new "green furnaces" or that autos must run on ethanol, that is socialism.

Anytime the goverment mandates products, prices, supply, they are acting in a socialist manner.

Markets tend to react to these devices accordingly. I remember in 1993, after Democractic Congress raised the luxury tax 50%, the yachting industry went into an immediate tailspin. Workers in this industry(mainly Conneticut) were layed off indefinitly as the demand for yachts dried up over night. Senators Liberman and Dodd (Democrats who voted for this tax increase) wrote an emergency bill to rescind this tax -thier politcal future demanded it. Another example is the EPA mandating natural gas turbines for the utility companies, and the consumer market. Little did anyone know, but the demand for natural gas tripled in just 18 years. Now the price of nautual gas is so high, that many contractors are offering the traditional electric heat furnances for homes (which, of course result in greater fossil fuel use).

Funny how well meaning socialism always tends to have unpredictable results for the worse. The Markets act much more reasonable than socialist bureaucrats.


Why are they called "Green?"
Rub an enviromentalist on the outside and you'll soon find the Marxist on the inside. I don't understand why people who want to eliminate plant food(CO2)are called Green. If they were truly Green they would be promoting an increase in CO2 volume.

Notice also that most of the AGW proponents in this thread always throw in a disclaimer to the effect that even if their theory isn't correct, "isn't it still a good thing to get off our fossil fuel fix." This is so ridiculous. Our "fix" over the past century provided a highly-efficient inexpensive fuel that provided the foundation for buiding the most prosperous society for the greatest number of people the world has ever seen. Exxon should be commended and awarded prizes for its service to humanity instead of constantly scorned by dimwits who haven't ever done anything for themselves, let alone anyone else. Let's compare Exxon's contributions to society with the sacred environmentalists - Hmmmm? Ban DDT and kill over 2 million people a year, prevent third world countries from obtaining electricity and clean water thereby killing at least another 2 million per year (primarily women and children) who die from lung infections from the dung they must therefore burn indoors to cook and heat.

If Alternative energy is readily available, how come it has to be subsidized and how will wind or solar energy power a factory.

These environuts are absurd - as the article states, when they try to silence critics it is a clear sign of how week their arguments are.

Re Lilly
Anybody who uses Rachel Carson's "Silent Spring" to justify their support of the idea of anthropogenic global warming has really lost their marbles.

"Silent Spring" has been totally debunked, even by scientists on the Left side of the debate. This woefully misbegotten book led to the banning of DDT based on specious scientific "data", and has actually led to the loss of hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of lives as malaria and other pest-born diseases which had previously been all but conquered have re-emerged.

Just goes to show, there's just no killing a bad idea.


Thoppers
Global warming proponents are Leftists all, and Leftists are "Thoppers" -- whatever they say, "THink OPPosite" to get the truth.

youmakemelaugh2 also
Much government money in grants goes to the scientists on the doom and gloom global warming is going to kill us side. That is their main source of income. Go against what they say and you lose your grant. So are they more ethical than scientists who are paid by corporations? You seem to think so.
Since the consensus was once that the sun revolves around the earth, I must believe that and you deniers of that better shut up.

Twilight Zone
The whole ridiculous global warming "controversy" reminds me of an old Twilight Zone episode. Remember? A young girl believes the earth is coming closer to the sun, causing the temperatures to rise. Remember that last image of paint streaking down a canvas? Then we find that she's hallucinating in illness, and the earth is really moving *away* from the sun, with the temperature dropping uncontrollably.

Fly Ash
Many years ago I spent some of my childhood in the home of my grandmother, who lived in a town where seven steel mills were working all shifts (these were the bustling days of World War II). Factory chimneys belched forth a thick black substance which settled on every surface in the town as "fly ash"---gooey black dust. It covered every front porch, sidewalk, street, car, school playground, and lawn. God knows what we breathed into our lungs. In those days, black stuff coming out of factory chimneys was thought to be a good thing: a sign of economic prosperity. I too thought it was a good thing---that sulphurous smell reminded me of home and Grandma. The mills fought any attempt to control the emission of fly ash because doing so would affect their income.

Now we know better. Now we know that allowing industry to vomit its waste products into our air, water, and earth may indeed make money for industry and thus advance the economy---but at the expense of life. Some of us care about this.

To my certain memory, every public and government initiative to restrain business from hurting the environment has been met with ridicule, detraction, and even force. This is because business is driven to make more and more money and does not usually care about protecting people or the earth unless forced to do so---by the government, through laws and regulations. Republicans are more likely to support business than protect people, so they orchestrate ridicule of any environmental issue.

From fly ash to the Love Canal to global warming, from "Silent Spring" to Three-Mile Island, from dead fish in city rivers to mercury in pristine lakes, none of this fight is new. Making fun of Al Gore's weight (and by the way, he never said he invented the Internet) is just the latest way of providing business with laissez-faire.

Global Warming is a farce...
"Fully qualified" does not equate to honesty. Enviro-nazis & marxist pigs will lie as necessary to succeed in implementing global oppression while they (as is fat Al doing) enjoy lives of luxury.

Who's Who
When five hundred qualified scientists, including dozens of major university science department chairmen, agree about an issue, and some guy from the Dogpatch Christian Teachers' College says the opposite, it's real easy to tell who's who when you watch who lines up behind which opinion.

GW scam
http://www.oism.org/pproject/s33p357.htm

http://www.sitewave.net/news/s49p1831.htm

Lots of real scientist don't buy the Kyoto, Algore scam. The first link shows over 17,000 of them who signed a petition opposing when the first wave hit around 1997. The second link has a ton of current articles linked exposing the real agenda of "climate change".


Don't worry
The Senate didn't take up Kyoto because they knew the effect it would have on the economy. If those idiots up there do anything that adversely affects their chances of being re-elected it means they go away and a new crop of idiots take their place. Congress can yammer all it wants about doing 'something' but if the unemployment rate goes up they know they will lose their jobs. They may be idiots but they aren't stupid .

Science does not
"tolerate" contrarianism for it's own sake. If you have a difference of opinion with the vast majority, then you better have some pretty compelling data. Right now, the data does seem to support the notion the Earth is warming. Just how much is unknown. Causiality is still open to some debate, although there is s distinct correlation between carbon dioxide and warmer temps. If they majority is right, we may be in real trouble, and much of that trouble is coming from Chinese and Indian coal fueled power plants.

Great
I'm glad that we do indeed have scientists on this forum, I stand corrected. I feel like a hot dog at Ruth's Chris. While plenty of people are smart enough to read the papers, are they smart enough to be objective? That's what makes a scientist a scientist.

I always look for the doctor with the poorest bedside manner and the personality of a house plant - because he is more likely to treat the disease and not concern himself with pleasing me. If you're emotional about an issue you can't be objective. According to you guys here - it's all nonsense. Do you deny air pollution and acid rain exist or that the mercury level in the sea has risen substantially? It would be ludicrous to say we're having no effect on the earth since I just gave you three examples. Between the chicken littles and the Pollyannas lies the truth.

I think we've ignored this issue long enough. At any rate it will speed our movement away from fossil fuels and no one would deny that's a good thing.

Marc of CA
Yeah, he claimed invented the internet too. Something he'll never hear the end of.

I still remember when ...
Al Bore was screaming that "everything that should be up is down and everything that should be down is up!".
All the while the economy, the subject he was describing, was improving.

This is all bunk and political fodder until we se what is really happening in another 50-300 years.

Well, now
"BBC's Great Global Warming Swindle was the BEST documentary I have EVER SEEN IN MY LIFE."

I've had man-made GW alarmists tell me they couldn't be bothered watching it on youtube (linked earlier) because it was 70 minutes long. They need their propaganda to be short and constant, even if it's wrong. They can't be bothered with fact nor reason, it only confuses them.

Hey, Magnificus did you notice
When they get snowed out - it's CLIMATE CHANGE.

When the temps hit 90+ it's GLOBAL WARMING..

BUT when it was 1970+ it was GLOBAL COOLING?

I think they have NO IDEA what is really going on and are just trying to force someone, anyone to do what they say - cause, of course, they KNOW MORE THAN WE DO. And, if they can stop any debate - they WIN.

BBC's Great Global Warming Swindle was the BEST documentary I have EVER SEEN IN MY LIFE.

Goshawk, you're right
They always assume everyone is some uneducated yahoo. There are a lot of very well educated people on this site, referring to our side of course.

I'm an engineer, too; civil.

Re funding
The issue of funding is another straw man thrown out by the whackos on the Left to try to discredit studies with which they don't agree based on ad hominem nonsense.

How does any scientific study get done?

Somebody funds it!

Who has that kind of money?

Big corporations and foundations.

I mean, this isn't rocket science (LOL).

Of course to the Left, if a guy didn't either accomplish his studies by funding it by saving bottle caps (I guess) or get his funding through an approved liberal source, then anything he writes is suspect.

Actually, all this does for me is confirm that Liberals are convinced that science ISN'T OBJECTIVE, and is in fact a tool to be used for ideological purposes. After all, they do it all the time.


mike_lee
Why do you assume there are no Scientist reading or posting on this site? I for one, am an Electrical Engineer/Physicist. And there are several others.

Al Bore is a scumbag scam artist using scare tactics to line his pockets at the expense of the American citizen.

Bill O'Rights
"Now that I am 46, I am reluctant to believe anything. The enviro-Nazi's cried wolf too many times."

4 times since 1895, so far. It's as if they've never learned the lesson of Chicken Little. When Gore's alarmism is debunked by a documentary on youtube, you know they're desperate.

Global Warming and the Constitution
Global Warming whether man-made or natural still does not trump the Constitution. Therefore, until a majority of our bi-cameral government signs off on two companion bills that make it through to the President, and ultimately contains his signature, no law has been passed.

Then the courts will have their say up through SCOTUS. By then, global cooling will be in vogue again.

I find it ludicrous that anyone would expect me to believe the enviro-Nazi's on this. They lost their credibility when I was convinced (and as a young kid - truly scared) that by the time I was 40, there would be no food because the crops would be under a frozen wasteland.

Now that I am 46, I am reluctant to believe anything. The enviro-Nazi's cried wolf too many times.

If the enviro-Nazi's on this site think their ad hominem attacks, repetitive rants, cut-and-paste "proof," and boorish nature think that those will change my mind, forget it.

I read Town Hall posts, the Philadelphia Enquirer, the Washington Post, Wall Street Journal, and the Washington Times. I will make up my own mind, thank you. Laughing stock and the rest of you may screech all you like. It has not changed my opinion one iota.

The ground would have to be so hot that the soles of my shoes melt, the air would be so stifling that each breath would sear my lungs, and the sun would sear my skin before I believe anything the left has to say...especially when it concerns giving up my freedom. Your crisis is man-made.

Of course, I still enjoy calling youmakemelaugh2 an idiot. That one solidifies my stand every time I read one of it's posts.

Of course, I could be wrong...if I am, well, I guess I'll be dead. The way the left tells it, there's no life after, so it won't make a difference anyway.

utahnotmormon
Nonsense, are you denying Muslim jihadists exist or claiming that man-made GW is real? Either way, you're wrong.

End of Debate
>Muslim jihadists are real, man-made GW is not.<

How can you condemn liberals when you do exactly as they do?

Summer is coming

Get ready for the onslaught from the MSM every day the temps are 90+

utahnotmormon
"Funny, I hear the same thing every day from hysterical people about Muslims."

Muslim jihadists are real, man-made GW is not.

For the alarmists...
I don't see how they can claim the debate is over or that there is consensus after watching this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XttV2C6B8pU

Of course, they wont watch, it makes them uncomfortable to be exposed to truth. Fact and reason only confuses the environMENTAL whackjob types. ;)


I am a scientist
Mike_Lee, I am a scientist, although not an environmental one. The biggest problem with AGW, IMHO, is that the models are crap and the advocates exaggerate. I have no dog in this fight, but there isn't a scientist out there who believes 1)that debate is over because a majority believes one way or 2) that an untestable theory is "proven". As other posters have pointed out, data has been left out and the biggest advocates for the drastic economic changes are not scientists but advocates and activists. If we had models that could accurately predict, based on real historical data, what actually did happen, then I would be more confident in their work. However, when they are no models that work, when the potential effects are constantly being adjusted downward (From 36 inch rise in sea level to 17 inches (avg)), and when the experts quoted are politicians and celebrities who predict 20 foot sea level rises (But exaggeration is OK because it's an important issue!,)I have some healthy scientific skepticism of the whole process.

Who else says that?
>as Al Gore tells us, "the survival of our civilization is at stake."<

Funny, I hear the same thing every day from hysterical people about Muslims.

mikelee
"Everyone here, since none of us are scientists, choose what to believe - and often choose it based on party line - how stupid is that?"

Speak for yourself. Lots of us here are PERFECTLY capable of reading scientific literature with understanding.

I've a Master's degree, statistical training, an IQ above 140, and lots of experience reading scientific journals. I'm perfectly cabable of reading and understanding scientific literature, and in fact, I take a great deal of pleasure doing just that from time to time.

If *YOU* don't feel competent to read and understand scientific literature, then I recommend you stay out of the debate. Plenty of us here are quite competent to participate, and will do just fine without your uninformed and frankly cowardly opinion.

Science is not a black art, and scientists are not gods or wizards. Any educated person can read, understand, and respond intelligently to scientific literature. Judging from your bizarre opinion, I infer that you've never even made the attempt. Perhaps you should someday.

inkling_revival
So true...

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=54483

"HYSTERIA
Exposing the secret agenda behind
today's obsession with global warming"

"Believe it or not, over the last century America's major media have predicted an impending global climate crisis four different times – each prediction warning that entire countries would be wiped out or that lower crop yields would mean "billions will die." In 1895, the panic was over an imminent ice age. Later, in the late 1920s, when the earth’s surface warmed less than half a degree, the media jumped on a new threat – global warming, which continued into the late 1950s. Then in 1975, the New York Times' headline blared, "A Major Cooling Widely Considered to Be Inevitable." Then in 1981 it was back to global warming, with the Times quoting seven government atmospheric scientists who predicted global warming of an "almost unprecedented magnitude."

Today, to cover all their bases, much of the press is changing its terminology from "global warming" to "climate change" or "climate catastrophe." That way they're covered either way: If the world gets colder, global warming is still at fault."

"Here's a hint: As "Deep Throat" famously told Washington Post "Watergate" reporter Bob Woodward, "Follow the money.""

"Whistleblower shows how all the main players – from politicians and scientists to big corporations and the United Nations – benefit from instilling fear into billions of human beings over the unproven theory of man-made global warming. Indeed, just three weeks after the U.N. ratcheted up international fears over global warming, a panel of 18 scientists from 11 countries has now reported to the U.N. that the only thing that can stop catastrophic climate change is a global tax – on greenhouse gas emissions.

That's right. Global problems, real or conjured up, require global governmental solutions. As Whistleblower explains, environmentalism is nothing less than the global elitists' replacement ideology for communism/socialism. With communism largely discredited today – after all, 100-150 million people died at the hands of communist "visionaries" during the last century – elitists who desire to rule other people's lives have gravitated to an even more powerful ideology. More powerful because it seems to trump all other considerations, as it claims the very survival of life on earth is dependent on implementing its agenda.

Thus, while scientists and climatologists who dare to question the rigid orthodoxy of man-made catastrophic global warming are openly ridiculed and threatened with decertification, the movement for global governance, complete with global taxation, is moving into the fast lane.

"Global warming will be one of the most powerfully coercive weapons in the globalists' arsenal for the foreseeable future," said David Kupelian, WND managing editor and author of "The Marketing of Evil." "It's important that everyone understands the game being played. This issue of Whistleblower provides a powerful antidote to all the hysteria – namely, common sense and truth.""

One of the infamous hypocrisies of the left is their attempt to discredit a source when they can't debate the facts. I always say, what difference does it make where the truth comes from as long as it's true?

hemakesuslaugh2
youmakemelaugh2 argues one of the favorite fallacies of the Left: "If the money comes from a capitalist, the research cannot be trusted."

Objection 1) Sounds like a Marxist bias to me. Are we sure we want our assumptions colored by the most murderous philosophy in the history of man?

Objection 2) How about research funded by governments? If the source of the money has a political bias or a predisposition to a particular result, and will only fund research that supports that bias or result, doesn't that government funding create incentives just as powerful as Exxon's?

The answer to objection 2 is "Yes, of course it does," and that's what's actually happening. There is no consensus on AGW, but the fact that most government funding -- and particularly UN funding -- encourages an AGW-friendly result, means that more pro-AGW research will occur than non-AGW research.

But of course, youmakemelaugh will not care, nor will he respond. He's only capable of repeating what he's heard, over and over again, not of any original thought or responsible rebuttal.

mike_lee
Nonsense. The sky is not falling and GW is not man-made.

mike_lee
Everyone here, since none of us are scientists, choose what to believe - and often choose it based on party line - how stupid is that? The perceived Republican position is "it's all hogwash." Because any regulation would hurt big business.

The democratic position is "it's an urgent crisis." Because the democrats are interested in protecting things, Spotted owls, Alaskan wilderness, and people. See the difference? This is an ace in the hole for the Democrats and the longer the republicans fight it the more damage they will absorb in 2008 and beyond. wither or not global warming is a threat (and I believe it is) voters believe it is. Therefore the republican party must get on board before it's too late.

Obstructionists are nothing new and calling them names isn't new either.

CO2 is not pollution...
It's a naturally occurring gas. Animals exhale it and trees use it to make more oxygen. If there's more of it, we get more plant growth. Plants love rich CO2 environments. CO2 accounts for a small percentage of greenhouse gas and an even smaller percentage of the total atmosphere.

Gore's mockumentary claims that warming follows rises in CO2 but the great global warming swindle proves that Gore lied. Rises in CO2 follow actually warming so CO2 can't be the cause of the warming. Furthermore, Gores now infamous "hockey stick" graph has been debunked because they intentionally left out two periods of time that didn't support their whacky theory that man made CO2 is responsible. One period that they left out when it was warmer back in the mid-evil warming period, there weren't any SUVs back then. Also there was a period during an ice-age where the CO2 was higher than today.

They want to claim that an SUV is bad because it gets less mileage than a hybrid, therefore allegedly causing global warming due to a tiny amount more CO2 emitted at the tailpipe but SUVs account for just a sliver of the total CO2 generated. Why do they exaggerate? Because EvironMENTAL whackjobs are utopians and mostly socialists. PETA was recently trying to shove vegetarianism down our throats because, it turns out, that COWS put out more CO2 than ALL transportation, COMBINED. Seriously, if COWS put out more CO2 than ALL transportation combines, how much do SUVs really put out? Man made, my eye.

So, we've had warmer periods than today, despite Gore's lies. We've had periods, during an ice-age where we had more CO2, despite the Alarmists lies and SUVs put out almost no CO2 compared to the contents of the atmosphere. The retarded socialists want us to believe it's man-made to justify their redistribution of wealth ponzi scheme.


youmakemelaugh2
What about the money given to the man made global warming alarmists by greenpeace and other environMENTAL whackjobs?

The great global warming swindle (available on youtube) has more than enough info from credible scientists (who state tehy've never got a dime from "big oil") that prove to me that it's not man made, there is no consensus and the debate isn't over.

Sorry, Chicken Little, the sky is not falling.

kyoto- ha-ha!
The kyoto agreement was and is a sham.
It isn't working and was designed not to work. It contained language that gave a pass to China, India, and others while forcing heavy restrictions on the US.
That's why we didn't sign it. It was a joke.
Kyoto failed and the proof is that of the signers, few follow it. It is worth the approximate cost of the paper it is printed on and nothing else.
And the number one issue I have with the global warming nazi's is that they stifle all debate using faulty logic and by attacking anyone who raises any questions. These charlatans use fear tactics to whip the world into a frenzy and then shut out anyone else with an opinion.
Then there's the ultra-libs from California who rush out to buy their Prius. Sure, the Prius is great, right? Smaller ecological footprint, right? How do they make the batteries that power the Prius? Oh right, by mining nickel, which is horrible for the environment (the areas around nickel mines are called 'dead zones' because there is no natural life there). Then, the nickel is shipped via plane and/or boat across the globe to China or Taiwan, where it is made into batteries. Then they build the cars in japan or china and they ship it back to the states, again via plane or boat, where it gets put on a truck and shipped to area dealerships. All this causes massive amounts of environmental damage.
And what happens when the batteries go bad and need to be replaced? What is the environmental impact of depleted nickel batteries?
It's a farce.
If the GW people were truly concerned with making a real, lasting difference, we'd have electric/hybrid trains in use for shipping. We'd have hybrid semi's on the road. We'd have eco-friendly boats running our shipping lines.
But we don't have any of that.
The global warming people didn't set out to find truth, they set out to blame YOU, the citizen, for environmental damage that comes from faulty science and bad research. THAT is why they discourage dissent.
Al Gore owns stock in the biggest carbon offset company. Every time you purchase a carbon offset, he gets money. That's why he is in the game. Selling nothing means high profits and low costs. And what does the money actually DO? Does it replenish lost resources? No. Does it fund scientific studies aimed at replacing gaps in ozone? Nope. Does it help lower carbon dioxide and monoxide levels? Nope.
So what? Planting trees? Doesn't that create MORE CO2?
It's a scam, folks. If it wasn't, they would encourage debate and they wouldn't have to sell fear.

Keeping Score
The very fact that you can bring up the stats on Exxon's giving is a good thing. Exxon has been given a bad rap by environmentalists because they refused to pretend to be other than what they are - an oil company. Unlike their seemingly green rival companies BP and Shell who pretend to be green while they too are also "oil companies."

While Exxon would not sign off on the Kyoto Protocol, they HAVE spent billions on renewable energy, reduced greenhouse emmisions, co-generation, researching fuel cells to develop technology and lower emissions, research energy technologies at Stanford University, and to undertake the "most significant contribution to endangered species conservation ever." (CBS News.com 11/22/02)

Global warming research is a lucrative business with huge grants and careers to think of. We need to use our brains and not our emotions to discover the true motives behind many of the movements today. Who would profit, how, and why are really good questions to ask BEFORE falling for any line that comes down the pike. Money, power, and influence seem to trump almost everything when you dig deeper.

Poor targeting
youmakemelaugh2:

I followed the link to the Heartland Institute article. Regardless of what you think of them or their funding source, the surveys they cite were not conducted by them but by others. The article merely summarizes the results. Before you launch an ad hominem attack, YOU should at least make sure you are aiming at the right target!


youmakemelaugh
OK, so you don't believe that dyerje's source is credible. Try this one:


http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/story.html?id=22003a0d-37cc-4399-8bcc-39cd20bed2f6&k=0

It's a Canadian e-newspaper.

Would you mind telling me which sources of scientific information on this subject ARE credible?

Oregon John
You wrote:
"the vast majority of climate scientists are now on the other side. Let's just be honest about that and proceed accordingly."

I'm not so sure you are correct about "a vast majority"...
Take a look at an excellent TEN PART acticle on climate change "deniers" written by Lawrence Solomon for a Canadian publication called the National Post.

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/story.html?id=22003a0d-37cc-4399-8bcc-39cd20bed2f6&k=0

There are plenty of heavyweights in the scientific community who question man's role in global climate change.
Be sure to read the last paragraph of each article that lists the qualifications of each scientist cited...they are impressive!

You also wrote:
"Furthermore, much of the sustainability focus is on encouraging green capitalism---not socialsim. There are huge opportunities there, and the investors and businesspeople who "get it" will survive and thrive in a post-petroleum world."

The only sustainable, clean, large-scale power source I know of is NUCLEAR ENERGY!
Haven't we already eliminated that as an option in the US?

I'd like to invest in the sustainable energy source you seem to feel is available and acceptable...care to tell me what it is???

Just think if the opposite was happening
The ice sheet was spreading across northern Canada. I would bet that all this PC pseudoscience would be thrown out the window.

johninoregon
I'm not convinced the "vast majority" of climatologists believe global warming is unquestionably man-made and likely to be catastrophic.

I hear this assertion a lot, but it is never backed up by documentation. I did, however, find the following link in a quick online search:

http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=17181

An actual international survey of climatologists revealed the respondents to be about evenly split on whether global warming is anthropogenic and needs to be worried about.

You may be aware that the Association of (American) State Climatologists is also largely skeptical of AGW as a cataclysmic threat. Another link -- anecdotal, but interesting:

http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=17181

I've done quite a bit of research on global warming in the last few months, and have found far more climatologists than Richard Lindzen and "four or five others" who are skeptical that the current warming trend is man-made and catastrophic. I wouldn't claim that the "vast majority" of climatologists are skeptical, but neither do I see actual evidence of the reverse.

John
That was a much more reasoned, thoughtful, and convincing post than you had earlier on Walter William's article. Congratulations on showing that you are in fact an intelligent individual and not a raving lunatic.

Burning fossil fuel is a good thing
Oil naturally breaks down into methane. Methane is a 200 times better green house gas. Methane leeks slowly through poures in the rock bed.
It is better to release the oil as co2 than methane. So everyone should increase there driving and buy bigger cars.

GREEN WARRIORS
Thanks Dana for your piece on the stifling of scientific debate over climate change. Loved your quote from John Stuart Mill.

The questions scientists should be FREELY exploring are:

To what extent is man-made climate change occuring?
What can(or should)we do about it?
If we decide on a policy to reduce man's impact on climate, will we be able to accurately acertain the results of our efforts?
What will be the economic impact of such a policy?

And finally,
Should we compel other nations to implement our policy, by force if necessary? (After all, if we are staring Armageddon in the face, why not use the most aggressive methods to get the world to deal with the threat?)

So here is our future, if we accept Al Gore's reality:

It's the year 2030.

UN efforts to get China to comply with the "Gore Global Climate Plan" by dismantling their 7000 coal burning power plants have failed.
President Chelsey Clinton assembles an American-led coalition of military forces to invade China...the GREEN WARRIORS!
Estimates of at least one million Coalition casualties are deemed acceptable, given the stakes.

At least the families of the soldiers who die in the conflict will be comforted by the knowledge that scientists back in 2007 were "unanimous" about the "certainty" of man-made climate catastrophe. Their children will not have died for a "lie" like Iraq...


Yes, but
I agree. People who believe that global warming is serious and requires serious mitigating measures should not be suggesting that the debate is over or restricting the rights of other people to say what they want. At the same time, conservatives should not be exaggerating the breadth or depth of the debate. Ever notice how Richard Lindzen, together with four or five other scientists, is mentioned over and over in conservative op-ed pieces on global warming? That would be because the vast majority of climate scientists are now on the other side. Let's just be honest about that and proceed accordingly.

And let's also be honest about the people who believe we should have serious policies to address these things. I've been around them for years, and I can assure you that they are not a bunch of raving socialists trying to use global warming as a wedge for establishing a one-world government. Of course they believe in international cooperation and govermental incentives and disincentives to help move us away from our over-reliance on fossil fuels. But good grief, we should have done these things a long time ago for national security reasons! The petroleum companies sure as heck aren't eager to help us sober up from our fossil-fuel "fix." There is a legitimate role for government here---federal, state, and local.

Furthermore, much of the sustainability focus is on encouraging green capitalism---not socialsim. There are huge opportunities there, and the investors and businesspeople who "get it" will survive and thrive in a post-petroleum world.

AGW
..activists want to perform destructive experiments with people's lives. We have no way of knowing what the climatological outcome would be if everyone in the West were forced to retreat economically to a pre-1900 way of life, in the interest of reducing CO2 emissions; nor do anything like the political mechanisms exist to ensure that the world's people actually DO this, if their governments commit them to.

(Oddly, however, the least clean nations on earth -- China and India -- would be allowed, in the Kyoto version of this experiment, to keep emitting CO2 into the atmosphere.)

We can't perform this experiment without destruction: agricultural, ecological, industrial, economic. Yet, the Earth being a singularity, we can't find out "what would happen" any other way. There's no alternate universe that we can interact usefully with; our only option is experimenting on ourselves, with an uncertain primary outcome, but absolutely certain collateral ones.

It's not the people who want a better reason for this high-handed experimentation than "I said so" who bear the most resemblance to Nazi war criminals.


isn't this a good tactic
Invent a major concern from whole cloth. Manufacture data using a panel of politicians and publish the "findings" without the data. negotiate a treaty using the voting weight of 3rd world countries and then declare the debate over before the rest of the world can catch up to the obvious scam.

question
Whether or not the brouhaha is BS or not (I think it is) the question remains - who is going to do what about it? The fact remains that the Clinton administration negotiated the Kyoto agreement and the Senate voted 95-0 to tell him not even to bring it to the floor.

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