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Thursday, February 08, 2007
Victor Davis Hanson :: Townhall.com Columnist
America the Blameworthy
by Victor Davis Hanson
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After 9/11, many leftists cited American faults that supposedly accounted for Osama bin Laden's savage attack.

The late Susan Sontag, for example, justified the terrorists' suicide bombing: "Where is the acknowledgment that this was not a 'cowardly' attack on 'civilization' or 'liberty' or 'humanity' or 'the free world' but an attack on the world's self-proclaimed superpower, undertaken as a consequence of specific American alliances and actions?"

But there were also those on the right who argued that the jihadists' furor was payback for our own sins.

Rev. Jerry Falwell pronounced that America the godless had gotten what it deserved: "Pagans and the abortionists and the feminists and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle . . . I point the finger in their face and say, 'You helped this happen.'"

Now there is another angle to the "blame America" game, this time from the secular right. In his book "The Enemy at Home," Dinesh D'Souza, of the Hoover Institution (where I work as well), charges that our decadent culture turns off traditional Muslims — otherwise the potential allies of American conservatives — and often renders them sympathetic to jihadist rhetoric.

He then goes further, arguing that the cultural permissiveness and obscenity of our leftists indirectly created a bin Laden. Now in a de facto alliance with the terrorists, the left, according to D'Souza, plots an end to traditional America.

D'Souza's solution is for conservatives here to embrace conservative Muslims, in a shared struggle against both the American left that misrepresented us and the jihadists who now misrepresent them.

But D'Souza's strained effort to fault millions of Americans for 9/11 proves no more convincing than was Susan Sontag's or Jerry Falwell's.

First, he libels a number of "domestic insurgents" who "want bin Laden to win." His list is nonsensical. Whatever one may think of the wisdom of Jimmy Carter or the late Molly Ivins, or of intellectuals like Tony Judt, Martha Nussbaum and Garry Wills, none of them wanted al-Qaida to defeat the United States — a victory that would have ended liberal tolerance here.

The novelist Salman Rushdie is also posted on D'Souza's proscription list. But why would the author of "The Satanic Verses" wish the jihadists to prevail when he himself was nearly killed as the object of an Iranian fatwa?

Second, D'Souza should reread al-Qaida's rambling complaints against the United States. They are just as often incoherent as they are angry at American decadence.

Bin Laden at times whined about the American failure to sign the Kyoto treaty on global climate, white racism, the bombing of Hiroshima, even improper campaign donations. If we took these terrorist rants as seriously as D'Souza does, then al-Qaida might seem to be a radical leftist organization furious at the supposed sins of a conservative United States.

Third, why should we think Islamic objections to our culture could justify the violence of the extremists? Jihadists may not like Western drug use, homosexuality, rap music or abortion any more than we do female circumcision, polygamy, sharia law and gender apartheid, which are as common in the Middle East as our purported offenses are in the West. But would anyone thereby justify Americans suicide-bombing Muslim civilians?

Fourth, in terms of giving possible offense to Muslims, others (such as the Indians, Russians and Chinese) have violently surpassed anything blamed on the United States. But bin Laden rammed planes into our towers, apparently because he bet (wrongly) that America was least likely to strike back. And wounding the United States — the most powerful symbol of a free, prosperous West — would offer the best propaganda coup for galvanizing other Muslims.

Fifth, and most regrettable, is D'Souza's belief that ideology trumps Americans' shared history and values. But despite the differences between red- and blue-state America, we find more in common with each other than with conservative Muslims in a gender-segregated Saudi Arabia or a religiously intolerant Iran.

An Alabama hunter and a Harvard professor, for all their likely political disagreements, share a commitment to the Constitution, freedom of the individual, the equality of women and tolerance of different religions. Head-to-toe burqas and honor killings for most of us are more offensive than rap music or "Brokeback Mountain."

Why do our provocateurs serially fault their own country in a time of war?

Such perversity earns instant attention. Consider the understandable uproar over Sen. John Kerry's recent characterization of America as a "pariah."

Evocation of 9/11 can also energize an otherwise moribund political agenda. And blaming us rather than jihadists offers the easy — but false — option of winning the war by just making changes at home, rather than doing the hard work of defeating Islamists abroad.

But worst of all, too many Americans embrace only their fantasy of a perfect United States, rather than the good America we actually have.

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About The Author
Victor Davis Hanson is a classicist and historian at the Hoover Institution, Stanford University, and a recipient of the 2007 National Humanities Medal.

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reply to Fergus
I know perfectly well that libertarian/economic conservatives/(present day) liberals exist, but they are not the conservative Republican base. They throw in with the religious right on pragmatic issues for them such as tax cuts and de-regulation. They are not thereby "conservatives."

Real conserevatives have what they see as the perfect, final understanding of precisely what American society is supposed to be: a society characterized by the implementation and practice of the moral code of Christianity as they understand it. Of course their understanding of Christianity, which is essentially fundamentalist and evangelical, is the only legitimate understanding.


America The Blameworthy
Haven't read the book-- just saw D'Souza's interview on C-Span. From that, he seems misrepresented here. First, it seems reasonable to examine why we were attacked on 9/11. As soon as you do, and say, "I think it was reason A, not reason B", you can easily be accused of having "blamed" someone or something. From that perspective, three-quarters of Hanson's article is meaningless right from the start. Second, Hanson almost implies that D'Souza thinks the left wants to see Muslim radicals beheading people on the Whitehouse lawn. D'Souza says that he has always defended the left from charges that they "hate America". It's a matter of the left wanting a different America, and having different foreign policy interests, than the right. Why as Hanson says, did bin Laden think America provided the "best propaganda coup for galvanizing other Muslims" if not that America and its culture represents something potentially "galvanizing" in the radical Muslim mind? America is an extraordinary nation, but if there ever really was a time when we could afford not to care about our reputation overseas, that time is past. D'Souza's interview at least, seemed thoughtful and scholarly. (Hanson's article on the other hand--empty and glib)

CT
You have to remember that they see things only from a humanistic perspective.

Even many Christians. That's why they are so involved in politics and look for political solutions to these things.

Sorry, but
as a Christian, I believe there are several reasons for 9/11. Yes, the radical murderers who did it are to blame. However, culturally, we are a decadent society according to biblical standards. If anyone believes that God is well pleased with our society, I think that person is blind. There are many examples in the Bible of God judging nations, even using other nations that were evil as his sword.

Lydia
I dunno. I kinda liked Bibsy.

Fergus
You misread my last paragraph.

My point is not that some guy like Qutb
is going to be upset. Let them be, screw
them if they don't like or understand our
freedoms.

My point is that others who are probably
as rational as you and me can look at our
actions overseas and see America as the
enemy because we did some bad things or
are connected to bad things - Israel,
Iran from 1953 to 1989, the support of the
Sauds, etc.

for what it's worth I am a fervent supporter
of Israel.

Spencer, I have his _Politically Incorrect
Guide to Islam_ - good for point of view
(see http://www.jihadwatch.org/spencer/),
but not a source I would trumpet for being
fair and balanced (even though he does
regularly appear on FOX News).
I imagine his Muhammad book is much the
same. Am I right?

I still think W. Montgomery Watt's book of
the ones I know is the most readable (even
though it is from 1961), see some of it here:
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/med/watt.html


everyone's facts
As for your reading recommendation: Thanks, but currently I am reading the autobiography of Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a female filmwriter, formerly Muslim, whose partner Theo Van Gogh was murdered by a Muslim for making a movie that criticized Islam. She now lives under constant death threats of Muslims for the same crime, and for the crime of apostasy.

In light of her experiences, and in light of Robert Spencer's excellent book "The Truth About Mohammed," I seriously doubt the book you are recommending is going to be all that persuasive.

everyone's facts
Inasmuch as Qutb was alarmed by America's libertine ways in the 1940s in GREELEY COLORADO - at that time a temperance town - it is absolutely ludcirous to think that America in the 21st century has any chance of "winning over" Muslims. For god's sake man!

Hanson is right
...that liberals are not to blame for horrifying a religiously moral (Islamic) people with decadence, and thus provoking the Armed Cohort of Islam to fly planes into buildings.

D'Souza got this one wrong. However, this is not because the illusion of personal freedom from any sort of moral restraint is a good thing. It's not a good thing. It's also not the signature achievement of either democratic self-rule or limited government. The fact that Muslim extremists say it is need not constrain US to believe the same thing.

Freedom from moral restraint is not a worthy goal, no matter who or how many think so, and it is not worth fighting or sacrificing for. I would not do it. I would not fight for Paris Hilton's right to have sex on the internet, or for an indie filmmaker's right to call "cinematic art" a video of a 12-year-old being (apparently) raped, that would, if found on some Joe Shmo's hard drive, be considered criminally-actionable child pornography by the FBI.

But these forms of expression are not the inevitable product of freedom of RELIGION (in other words, freedom from state religion), or of speech, or of consensual self-rule by the people. Nor could any action by government stamp out of men's hearts the desire to engage in evil. Islam, in the hands of its most trenchant exponents, asserts that Western decadence is the product of too much democracy and not enough unity/submission (the meaning of "Islam") imposed from above. But Islam is wrong.

What's worth fighting for in democratic self-rule and limited, republican government is that, alone among forms of government, this one does not seek to intervene between the individual and his idea of God and moral behavior. LIMITED government, of and by the people, is unique in not trying to usurp the place of God in an individual's life. Every form of tyranny, from kingly rule by divine right to Marxism at the point of a gun, does exactly that.

Democratic self-rule also perpetrates by far the lowest incidence of corruption in government, of the kind that undermines the morality of the citizenry. Americans have largely forgotten that it is unique to the Judeo-Christian West of the last 500 years that our governments do not regularly confiscate all our wealth from us (and I don't mean taxes here, I mean life-and-legacy-ruining confiscation, of the kind that was and is routine under kings and emperors); that they do not incarcerate us at whim; they do not force us to spy on or rat out our neighbors; they do not induce children to turn on parents, husbands on wives, employees on employers; they don't force us to worship God in secret; they don't first allow us to achieve a little prosperity and peace, and then rob us of it; and they don't turn us into lying, cheating, bribing, sneaking, whimpering dependents of the erratic whimsy of a ruling class, just in order to survive.

THAT is worth fighting for. THAT is what self-rule and limited government are about. They are not about escaping moral standards, and if they produced only that form of "value," one prized by others but not by me, I would neither support nor fight for them. The loss of moral standards demonstrably leads to sloth, poverty, and despair. It is a drain on the efforts and hopes of everyone; it is not to be desired.

But self-rule and limited government produce -- with vigilance -- the forms of value I do care about: the opportunity to succeed and prosper through living a moral life, and not have my efforts overturned and made useless, as they inevitably have been throughout history, by tyrannical government. The avoidance of immorality is every bit as important to prosperity as free markets are; the great virtue of limited government by self-rule is that it does not actively promote IMmorality in the citizenry (e.g., deception, bribery, cheating), as all other forms of government do.

Islam makes the age-old mistake of proposing that greater rule by a governing authority will discourage immoral behavior. But history does not bear this out. Where rule is most absolute, there man's individual moral sense is at its weakest. There is the worst treatment of the poor, as well as the worst treatment of everyone else. Coercive rule cannot eliminate immorality; rather, it celebrates and promotes some forms of it, and drives others underground. As we have seen with all three major religions, religious RULE, in the hands of the state, does this as efficiently as avowedly secular rule.

So Islam is not the answer to the West's moral problems, nor is a vote for democracy the same as a vote for being permissive about immorality. We need not saddle ourselves with these confused ideas. I don't see immoral behavior as a by-product of liberty that must be tolerated; rather, liberty from tyrannical government is the sine qua non for reaping the benefits that ONLY come with a MORAL life. That's what America is about. That's what makes it worth fighting for.

missing words
oops!

last paragraph should read:

Also, interesting you mention Sayyid Qutb,
what he was most alarmed about about American
society was its libertine ways. To discredit
terrorist hatred because the Muslim Brotherhood
was formed IN 1928 is to not question why it
has remained and spread SINCE - Israel, Iran,
Saudi Arabia, etc.

fergus
I would recommend reading Reza Aslan's
_No God but God: The Origins, Evolution,
and Future of Islam._
He does an excellent job of looking at Islam
(and the Qur'an and Hadith) within a historical context.
The book is also well written and rather enjoyable. He addresses the issue of violence
nicely.
His main argument is that warfare was originally only to be used defensively. He points to the Qur'anic verse "Fight in the way of God
those who fight you, but do not begin hostilities; God does not like
aggressors." (2:190)

The other Qur'anic quotes that are often used to justify Islam's violent instincts are verses specifically directed against the Quraysh
(the ruling tribe in Mecca - pagans, btw).
It was only later Muslim scholars, such as Ibn Taymiyya, who interpreted these anti-Quraysh as justifying war against all non-believers.

Also, interesting you mention Sayyid Qutb,
what he was most alarmed about about American
society was its libertine ways. To discredit
terrorist hatred because the Muslim Brotherhood
was formed is to not question why it has
remained and spread - Israel, Iran, Saudi
Arabia, etc.

Gestell
Your are confusing Liberty (which American Conservatives promote) with license (which American Conservatives abhor).

Conservatives believe in those "certain inalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." Conservatives appreciate that one party's pusuit of happiness cannot trump another party's right to life or liberty.

Dispense with the desire to analyze why our enemy wants to kill us, and simply accept at face value their desire to see us deceased. Comprehension of motive is of little solace to a corpse.

A religion of liberty
While Pres Bush's words after 9/11 about liberty being under attack served to unite Americans for a brief historical moment, this call makes a fetish of representative democracy and western individualism.

As a Christian perhaps he should have understood that murderers shouting Allahu Akbar should not be opposed with secular democracy but with the recognition that their crimes were against the God who is the father of all of us - even the Mohammedans.

This is a spiritual war. Although the liberals blame western social policies for the retardation of the middle east, there is no secular accounting for the virulence of the hatred which is now showing itself everyday in Iraq, and Palestine, and Egypt, Somalia, the Philippines and Indonesia. As such the leader of the free world needed spiritual guidance, but it appears he followed his secular instincts; he is after all charged with defending the United States.

Lydia
I take your words without sarcasm; learning about this commonality takes study: whatever oceans of resentment that have welled up in the "clash of civilizations", there are surprising similarities in the belief systems of Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists and Hindus. This has been documented many times, but now unfortunately we want to forget.

Al Qaeda's motivations
From The Looming Tower it appears that for both Bin Laden and Zawahiri their main motivation was to create Saudi and Egyptian states, and then the creation of a pan-Arabic or pan-Muslim caliphate. Their enemies were those that appeared to stand in way.

They opposed Soviet intervention into the state of Afghanistan because it was a nation of muslims, and they opposed the Saudi dependence on the US military because Saudi Arabia is not just a nation of muslims but home to Mecca and Medina.

They fought against pro-western regimes in muslim Egypt, such as Sadat and (less so) Mubarak.

Their goal was to create a religious awakening in the Muslim world to rally support to the idea of a renewed caliphate - and despite the massive radicalization of Arab youth, it failed.

correction
I of course ommitted "conversion" as one of the options that the Qu'ran directs its believers to offer non-believers. And "dhimmi" status, of course, depends on being "People of the Book," there is no dhimmi status for pagans or atheists.

Some thoughts
Gestell proves beyond any shadow of a doubt that it is possible to achieve a very high level of education and still be about as stupid as one can be. The fact that he so completely dismisses the libertarian/classical liberal strains of modern American conservatism, and attempts to argue that the "religious right" forms the majority if not the entirety, is rather unbelievable. That he moreover ENTIRELY ignores the strains of nannyism and collectivism on the American Left is beyond unbelievable, and suggests that he is quite simply not being honest.

Tanabear is... well, just being tanabear. You don't blame a skunk for being a skunk; you just try not to let one get into the house.

Anyone who thinks that the Muslim extremists hate us for our libertine culture, or for our "colonial adventurism," or for attacking Iraq, or for supporting Israel, is quite simply deluding themselves. Islam directs its adherents to subjugate and conquer those who are not Muslim, offering them the choice of death, dhimmi status, or war. The Qu'ran makes no bones about this, and it does not make exceptions or conditions.

The Muslim Brotherhood was founded in 1928. Sayyid Qutb visited the U.S. before Israel was founded, before we supposedly deposed the government of Iran and installed the Shah... and of course, WELL before the current libertine parameters of our popular culture were established.

All the rest is just rhetoric and excuses.

tanabear
Your comment that it is an absurd insinuation that muslim acts of terrorism are reactions against freedom and are more a result of American involvement in the muslim world, makes sense only if they are directed solely against America.

The sad fact of the matter, however, is that these acts are not restricted to America alone but are a worldwide phenomena and must be analyzed in that context. Anything less calls into question the objectivity, if not the informational sources of the observer. This means you.

I have seen reliable figures such as that 26 of the 35 or so armed conflicts occurring in the world today are the direct result of muslims as aggressors and in those places where my informational sources have access, it ends up being confirmed. And in the vast majority of those places, such as Thailand, Chechnya or Algeria, for example, America is not involved, even peripherally.

Additionally, in those places, such as Bosnia, where America IS involved, it has been on the side of the Muslims, so I question your conclusion. And your bias.

Why triangulate?
I can certainly see some merit to D'Sousa's argument that conservative Christians and Muslims share common values. Students of world religions have frequently pointed to surprising degrees of similarity in the faith-statements of the great world religions. So there is ground for building a common bond there.

There is also a vast area of agreement amongst the religious traditions that the secularization of public life such as has been pursued in the US and the rest of the West is relentlessly destroying the possibility of building god-centered societies.

But making secularists the enemies of the religious in the time of the war on terror may undercut our ability to make distinctions between elements of non-Christian religious traditions that we can embrace and those that we can't.

While we don't have to say "I am wedded to the separation of church and state" and therefore make instant enemies of believers in Sharia or other religious law, we do have to say that a primary goal of religious life is peace between God-seekers, and the creation of a society with absolute respect for those of differing religious traditions.

If D'Sousa's strategy argues that the enemy of my friend is my enemy, we might just cut our own throats.

"Waltons'" America still a target
DiSouza's argument seems to imply that the America of traditional values would not have been attacked by the jihadists. I disagree. Even if we still lived like the Waltons, or presented a Norman Rockwell portrait to the world, Islamic extremists would eventually have done precisely what they did; even if they might have taken longer to do it. Our decadent culture may have sped them up a little, but the jihadits' agenda is as old as Islam itself.

Liberty
posted, "Per the President's own mouth, Iraq had nothing whatsoever to do with 9-11. Yet, we went there."


One of the major leftists' fallacies in the "Iraq War/WMD" argument! The lefists/socialists believe that we should only attack countries that have attacked us directly, so we should never have "invaded" Iraq.

Using that logic, we shouldn't have invaded Kuwait or France or Canada because it was Iraq, Germany or England that we were fighting.

The war we're fighting is against a large group of radical muslims who live in every country on the planet.

We were justified in invading Iraq merely for the reason Hussein was firing on our aircraft. That's an act of war. We also had UN and US congressional authority to invade Iraq.

Now all the Democrats (read: socialists) have decided they were against the invasion before they were for it (although it was official US policy that regime change in Iraq was our goal).

Socialist-Democrats never run out of hypocrisy.

tanabear and Ancient Juan
I have to say I agree with tanabear on
this one.

If people overseas don't like us it is
not for individual freedom at home. It is
for our foreign policy actions and what we
export to the world in the name of
entertainment.

The foreign policy that Al-Qaeda is most upset
about is the support of Israel, the support
of the Saudi rulers, and our support of the
Shah in Iran and the NKVD from 1953-79
(including the CIA overthrow of Iran in '53)

The media export speaks for itself.

Were the attacks on 9-11 logical?
I would say 50-50 - the attacks on the WTC
- no. The attack on the Pentagon and the
other planned for DC - yes, attacking the
government for our foreign policy makes
some logical sense.

Were the terrorists right as well as logical.
No.

WOW!!
What does one expect from Tana...because 9/11 was a conspiracy...
Um, once again,your supposition that things are worse thatn pre-war are a mistake. I could go and get the list for you about what's improved. However, my mother always taught ME that when you don't know the facts,you'll remember them much better if you do the work yourself. It IS out there. Your statement is what you wnat to believe. Yikes...

Tanabear...say what?
While you may be able to tan a bear, I'm still wonderin' if ya can skin a grizz, pilgrim?

Sadly, your last post is a particularly vile-pile of illogical drek and doesn't begin to merit serious consideration and/or reply.

The above is my gratuitous ad hominum remark for the day.

Regards,

Ancient 1

gestell's world...
I was what Churchill stated...liberal when young, but I grew up. Don't tell me 'individualism' flourishes under liberalism. Just take a look at that flawed viewed in colleges today. Liberals excuse all behavior (if it feels good, do it) EXCEPT intolerance for all behavior. News flash: while all people are equal, all behaviors aren't. I had to sever my relationship with my best friend of 30 years because I could no longer keep my mouth shut while she raved about Michael Moore and foamed at the mouth about George Bush (who I feel should be impeached...I'm no fan). The only thing she could give a mild critical comment about was child pornography...and I'm sure if I asked her, she'd give her ol' standard about a film depicting beastilaity as, 'well, it's not my place to judge.' But ask her about going into Afghanistan and get out of the way...you'll see rabid rage!

Criticizing immoral behavior doesn't destroy
'flourishing individualism'...spitting at military recruiters does. Standing up for and talking about traditional marriage and wanting to perserve established values doesn't destroy free speech.....screaming at conservative speakers at universities does; trying to ennact the 'Fairness Doctrine' does. McCain Feingod does.
Get real....the intolerance of ideas is in the realm of the liberal. And the reason they do their best to clamp down on such ideas is that it's all they have as defense. The validity of an idea, ultimately is in 'law'...like two and two are four. No matter how much one screams and rants and says it ain't so...you can't make two and two five.

Come on now...
Buzzkat writes: "Another far-Leftist in the American educational system. What a shock."

Be fair, educating yourself is better than not...

Where did Falwell and Robertson got thier degrees? I bet it was the United States.

Our colleges produce maniacs on both sides...

To Gestell

GESTELL: "One of the key elements in conservatism is a moral criticism and rejection of the individualism that flourishes under liberalism. Linked to this rejection is the religious injunction to implement the teachings of Christianity as the moral core of American society."

I find that conservative "moral criticism" is directed more at the libertine than the liberal and individualism, actually, flourishes much more in a truly conservative society where self-reliance and resposibility hold sway.

What you call liberal individualism is, at best, reactionary libertarianism or, at worst, puerile hedonistic anarchy.

Finally, if we Americans still maintain a "moral core" it is indeed based on solid long-standing Judeo-Christian philosophies.

Regards,

Ancient 1

TRY TO READ IT SLOWLY
Gestell et al: which part of this statement from Koran you do not understand: "We will killlll all non-muslims"?

Another thought for Liberty
Liberty: "I wonder however...what would WE think if another country took it upon themselves to free us of OUR own leaders? I for one, would not look kindly upon that. In fact, it would make me downright mad. What would you think?"

Do you mean what France did for us during the Revolutionary War?

Regards,

Ancient 1

Reenie
You give liberals too much credit.

Churchill had something to say about those who were still socialists after the age of 30.

Something to the effect of, "Those who aren't socialist before the age of 30 have no heart; those who are still socialists after the age of 30 have no brain."

Hanson on D'Souza
I agree completely with VDH regarding D'Souza's misanalysis. While D'Souza is correct that much in our culture is offensive to Muslims, that is not the reason they hate us. Many of the Americans murdered by Muslims overseas have been priests, nuns and church-sponsored volunteers -- the most pious and conservative Christians imaginable.

Mainstream Islamic doctrine (and not just the radical fringe) teaches that the entire world must be eventually subject to Islamic law, and that violence is perfectly acceptable to achieve that. Because America is the strongest defender of Western values, we are the primary target of the Muslim haters. They believe that if we were neutralized, no one could stop them from turning the entire planet into an Islamic hell on earth.

Good column Mr. Hansen -with 1 exception
Saying that folks like Jimmy Carter and Molly Ivins don't actually want al queda to win, is as significant as saying that a man who TRULY believed that he could drive safely while blindfolded, was not responsible for the horror he caused when he drove into the crosswalk full of kindergartners.

They can only be insane or thoughtlessly wreckless. Either way,they need to be shut up.
Another column here on TH had a responder who quoted Lincoln as saying words to the affect,"Any congressman who does or says things that hurt the moral of OUR troops and by doing so,boosts the enemys',is a traitor and should be locked up,deported or shot."(that's a paraphrase - but that'IS the gist of it)

I think this about says it all regarding the current state of your average American congressmans moral view of his responsibilty to not embolden the enemy: "Blindfold on,FULL SPEED AHEAD !!!"

Why Bin Laden Attacked
The author says, "But bin Laden rammed planes into our towers, apparently because he bet (wrongly) that America was least likely to strike back. And wounding the United States — the most powerful symbol of a free, prosperous West — would offer the best propaganda coup for galvanizing other Muslims."

I think Victor is oversimplifying as much as Dinesh has. There are no doubt, a combination of reasons why Bin Laden felt it was a good time to strike the Great Satan, not the least of which was his (bin Laden's) statement against the Decadent West. He railed against us for being so decadent in all his earlier pronouncements. In that respect, Dinesh hit the nail on the head. But, like Victor, he missed or passed over the other stated reasons such as Bin Laden's belief that the Qur'an requires them to kill the Infidel.

To that end, this fight will never end as long as there are those who believe as Bin Laden did.

To piggyback JimmyJoe
The posts here at Townhall that are about homosexuality, godless hollywood and the like are in relation to articles written about those topics; they are not brought up in a vacuum!

As for conservatives that wish to see freedom eroded, that is a total fabrication. The writers at this site and the members that post here are all in favor of individual freedom and call for smaller government to allow freedom to flourish. The liberal obsession with big government is the great threat to individual freedom because the larger the government gets, the more power it draws to itself, the more likely that freedom will be trampled in the name of some government program or agenda. While many liberals refuse to see that an overreaching government presents a threat to individual freedom, it is usually the conservatives that are attempting to stand against that tide.

reject!reject!reject!
There is no way on God's Green earth there is anything remotely enticing about Islam or Jihadists for me. And that you incite WE conservatives would like to curb individuals and their freedoms? This is more the liberal side of the house...It seems they would rather society be equal on all fronts,pretty much. Where is individualism if everyone has to be equal? Boy, I am not getting where you make the connection.

I also reject the notion that conservatives want the individualism that "flourishes under Liberalism." Yikes!!!
Do you know what I see in that? Don't discipline,spank,use red pen,letter grades on the kids,you'll quash their self-esteem...which in turn might get you this: "It's not johnny's fault he committed murder, he had an abusive childhood." That is what I see in the liberal version of individualism. There are no limits or responsibilities for alot of things...it's always somebodyelse's burden.
What I as a conservative espouse is right from wrong,accepting responsibility for actions, not trying to find a syndrome to give a pass to those making an obvious wrong choice(breaking the law). The left's version of Individualism takes away all of that in the name of PC and fear of stepping on somebody's toes.

Gestell
Reading your posts on this topic reminds me of reading the Koran.

You get the sense the author meant to write the Bible but someone slipped him a hallucinogenic.


Conservative posters
savaged Dinesh D'Souza last two columns that were taken from the book. Anyone who thinks the posters here at TH agreed with him obviously has not read the posts on those columns.

Becomming better
I hope anyone will accept the following truths

1. America is not perfect.

2. America wants to be as good as it can be.

3. One can improve only by identifying weakness (faults).

If you believe these, then it is the patriotic duty of Americans to find fault with America. Conservatives do this all the time (taxes too high, ...).

Hansen's post is an academic's elaboration of the Bush line: "They hate us because they hate our freedoms." There is some truth in this, though very little. Bin Laden said in interviews why he hates America. Listen and you might learn. I've listed the reasons in other posts, but Hansen has access to all the research, he only lacks the will to look at it.

Gestell
Gestell: "Please read TH posts cosely. It seems to me like most of them are about all those homosexual perverts and atheist liberals and immoral movie stars and filthy TV shows that are corrupting our country."

MOST of them???? I havent done a count, but I dont think this is TRUE!! I think your generalisation too broad to be fair.

Gestell: "Plus all those people claiming all sorts of "rights" to do stuff God expressly prohibited."

I dont know. There is AN ELEMENT OF fundamentalist Christianity here, but so what? What else do you expect to find? But again, you exagerate by referring to "all those" when you mean "some."

And I am not being pedantic. My criticism of your original post is precisely on these grounds. You exaggerate that which you object to! And that is a distortion.

I KNOW you werent referring to Classical Liberalism. You should have been, because YOU in turn would have a FAR greater understanding of "Conservatism" if you could see that connection.

Your reference to the "living constitution is a red herring. When I talk about how words change in MEANING over time, I am talking NOT about what I want to happen to words - but what ACTUALLY happens. I would PREFER to be described as "liberal" IF liberal meant what it TRADITIONALLY (can I say that??) meant!

But because it has come to be associated with particular VIEWS which I abhor, I cannot use that word to accurately describe myself. And you take Mr. Buckley OUT of context. The "pushing force" to which he objected was the then trend - beginning with FDR, cemented by WW2 - towards big Government! "STOP! Before all our freedoms are eroded!!"

Gestell: "You guys are not conservatives; you're right-wing populists, a very familiar American political category."

Again, you revert to that annoying GENERALISATION. For a self-described "intellectual" that SHOULD be something you would question when OTHERS do it... but that you would question MORE when YOU do it yourself. Very annoying. And not because I am "right wing". But because it is equally annoying when I read generalisations about "you lefties" or "you liberals"... duh.

Gestell: "I oppose the leftist denunciation of the US every bit as much as I do the conservative version."

I dont have the least problem with this.

Gestell: "Conservatives who flirt with the Islamic criticisms of our society come very close to siding with the real bad guys."

I have SERIOUS problems with this. Like who? D Souza? I have addressed that already. Falwell? Im no fan of his. Who ELSE? Mr. Buckley? Dr. Sowell?? I hope you finally get MY point.

reply toJimmyJoe
Please read TH posts cosely. It seems to me like most of them are about all those homosexual perverts and atheist liberals and immoral movie stars and filthy TV shows that are corrupting our country. Plus all those people claiming all sorts of "rights" to do stuff God expressly prohibited. If you don't see any of this, a good place to look is at the response to any of Mike Adam's columns, but there is much more on TH.

What misleads you is that the same people who write about all of this also rant about big government--and some claim that big government is behind all of these moral problems--creating welfare dependency, too many hot school lunches, way too easy access for the disabled, etc.

I wasn't referring to "classical liberalism" at all, but rather to the historical content and positions of conservatives. Too bad you didn't get it. Conservatives should have a big problem with adopting your view that changing times bring about changing meanings. For one thing, that looks an awful lot like the liberal 'living Constitution' idea you guys hate. For another, what will remain of the content of conservatism if you allow it to undergo changes of meaning so drastic as to separate you folks as you are now from conservatism's own past? What are you trying to preserve if not the past? And if that's what you want, you have to do what the young Bill Buckley said when he founded "National Review:" to stand before the pushing force of history and yell "Stop!"

Your remarks only make clear a point I like to make on TH. You guys are not conservatives; you're right-wing populists, a very familiar American political category.

Also: if you look at my firt post, I oppose the leftist denunciation of the US every bit as much as I do the conservative version. We are not the bad guys of this planet. Conservatives who flirt with the Islamic criticisms of our society come very close to siding with the real bad guys.

Gestell
You make FAR too many broad generalizations. I dont see anyone leaping to the defense of D'Souza here, or sharing his view. You begin with a statement which is simply NOT TRUE.

Gestell: "Even the most casual reader of TH should be able to see that many, many people who post here believe that there is far too much liberty afoot in our nation."

Quite the OPPOSITE. Insofar as it is an issue, the vast bulk of posters and columnists spend their time fretting about INCREASES in "Big Govt." Their problem with the "liberal elites" is that THESE believe in "Big Govt" and so would reDUCE freedom.

As for your "historical background" -Classical "Liberalism" in the 18th Century sense is NOT "Liberalism" in the 21st. The present day "Conservative" positions on economics and trade are FAR closer to a Classical Liberal outlook that present-day "Liberalism."

The positions you ascribe to "Conservatism" do not represent what the word "Conservative" has COME to mean. Words exist in a contest. And their MEANINGS change over time.

reply to critics
Even the most casual reader of TH should be able to see that many, many people who post here believe that there is far too much liberty afoot in our nation. They trace this problem to liberal educators, the courts, Hollywood, and much, ,much more. This is simply a grass roots version of a traditional conservative argument that started with Burke's criticism of the French Revolution, extended through all sorts of European right-wing critics of modern culture in the 19th century, and was well-preserved in the thinking of major 20th century conservative intellectuals from the Southern Agrarians to Richard Weaver to Russell Kirk to Bill Buckley and lots of lesser figures. This is why Kirk could find things to admire in Khomeni.

I didn't make this up. If conservatives would pay some attention to the history of their own position, they'd know this stuff. It's absurd that an ivory tower liberal intellectual like me as this stuff at the tips of his fingers, and you guys don't. Conservatism originated as a fundamental criticism of moral and political modernity in all its forms, and yes, that means precisely the rugged individualism and lack of conformity that has been such a part of the American way of life. This means, as it should, that conservatives should be where they have been--at the forefront of resistance to the abolition of slavery, opposition to women's rights, opposition to the goals of the civil rights movement, opposition to labor unions, opposition to all forms of public assistance, opposition to modern art and music-whether serious or popular--and so on. Once conservatives grasped all of this, and now they do not. They take for granted and take as self-evidently good the abundant personal freedoms they enjoy in America, never thinking that the very principles on which our nation was founded are profoundly defective in the light of the Western tradition. As Goerge Will was brave enough to say a few years back, America was "ill-founded." At least Will is aware of genuine conservatism.

Religious conservatives still represent some of these criticisms, but again, they generally are poorly-informed about the specifics. If they become well-informed, they see that the Christian tradition is opposed, for example, to what Americans think of as the best sort of political system: modern liberal democracy, because God doesn't want us to live this way. Put otherwise, the sharia provides a good list of restrictions if you're concerned about the loose morals of American women.. D'Souza is really teetering on the brink of saying that Islam gets it right.

A brilliant demonstration of the requirements of Christianity with regard to modern invidualism and liberal democracy is Robert Kraynak's book, "Christian Faith and Modern Democracy"(University of Notre Dame Press, 2001).
A laudatory review of it can be found on the BrothersJudd website at:

http://www.brothersjudd.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/reviews.detail/book_id/1002





Gestell
I can understand why you said the things you did, given all the people going around these days calling themselves conservative, when they really are NOT.

Individual liberty and responsibility are basic ideals to the conservative philosophy. True conservatives are strong defenders of the Constitution and want to see it followed. We don't want it interpreted; we want the original intent of the Founders followed. Gestell explains this well.

Gestell
So, from your ivory tower perspective, conservatives = a few religious fanatics. How insightful! It must have taken years of grueling academic effort for you to come up with this unique pearl of wisdom.

"And that is why some conservatives will begin to buy into the jihadist rant against America. I expect more, not less, of this sentiment on the Right."

It's been more than five years since 9/11. Considering that a large swath of your fellow Leftists have always ranted against the evils of America, what is your estimate of when this will start to occur with conservatives, oh erudite scholar?


Another far-Leftist in the American educational system. What a shock.

Genius
Bin Laden's 9/11 attacks were pure genius. From a strategic standpoint, what better target than the US? If the US does nothing (kind of like the Clinton era), we are cowards - a paper tiger. If we attack (1) who do we attack since there isn't a nation-state at play and (2) we look like a bunch of bullies.

These guys don't hate us for any reason other than they can build a power base regardless of our response. Look, we can ascribe any attributes to Bin Laden that we wish, the truth of the matter is nobody here knows what makes him tick. It could be that Brooke Shields refused to date him that drives his desire to attack the US. Damn that Brooke Shields!

Liberty
What do I think?

Well, having given it a moments consideration, if that leader was SADDAM, I wouldnt be in the slightest bit "mad". Id say, "thank you."

Gestell
Gestell: "One of the key elements in conservatism is a moral criticism and rejection of the individualism that flourishes under liberalism."

Not so. Moral criticism - yes - but a "key elenents" in conservatism includes a belief in small government, low taxes, free enterprise, free trade - ALL designed to INcrease individual liberty - NOT reduce it. And there is nothing wrong or freedom-reducing about "moral criticism." Liberals do it all the time but find different things to be morally critical about. No big thing.

Gestell: "Linked to this rejection is the religious injunction to implement the teachings of Christianity as the moral core of American society."

Again, not so. Most CONservatives I know concern themselves with defending the CONSTITUTION as originally written, and with retaining its original INTENT. Liberals, in general, favor a more active Supreme Court "interpretation" which gives enormous power to a very small group of non-elected individuals who retain their positions for life.

Gestell: "From this standpoint, conservatives can see something appealing about Islam or about any society where there seems to be a general consensus on curbing individualism and individual freedoms."

I have already disagreed with what led you to THIS conclusion, so naturally, your findings here are also suspect. I know of NO conservative who finds "something" particularly "appealing" about Islam. (I will deal with D'Souza in a moment).

The strongest words used AGAINST the Islamics are to be found by CONservative writers, not liberal ones. Check it out.

Gestell: "D'Souza simply continues this right-wing doctrine."

No he doesnt "continue" ANYthing. He came up with a "provocative" title, based on a provocative thesis, which appears groundless. But because it is "provocative" it will get attention and SELL. Duh.

Gestell: "His denunciations... in which everyone cannot be made to march to the same drumbeat. But oh, how you conservatives dream of that wonderful day!"

Well, answering THIS is beyond me. You have been on this site often enough to KNOW that you cant even SAY "you conservatives" with ANY degree of accuracy - no more than I can say "you liberals." SOME conservatives, and SOME liberals sound off by making wildly inaccurate generalisations about the other - and guess what? Regardless of who is doing it - in this case YOU - it BORES me to death. Enough already!

Turnabout
There is no defense of whomever bombed us on 9-11. None.

Per the President's own mouth, Iraq had nothing whatsoever to do with 9-11. Yet, we went there.

Saddam clearly would not be my choice of a leader. I wonder however... what would WE think if another country took it upon themselves to free us of OUR own leaders? I for one, would not look kindly upon that. In fact, it would make me downright mad. What would you think?

Conservatives, look within
I'm a lifelong liberal Democrat academic in a blue state who loathes the blame game perpetrated by both liberal and conservative intellectuals. We did nothing to "deserve" 9/11 except to exist. Even if we cut off all aid to Israel, jihadists would still hate us and seek to destroy or conquer us.

The leftist version of the blame game is obviously despicable, but the conservative version cannot really be detached completely from the religious/moral agendas of many conservatives. I recall Russell Kirk's favorable comments on Iran's Ayatollah Khomeni shortly after the Islamic revolution in Iran. It's also worth noting that leftist super-icon Michel Foucault was enthusiastic about that regime as well.

One of the key elements in conservatism is a moral criticism and rejection of the individualism that flourishes under liberalism. Linked to this rejection is the religious injunction to implement the teachings of Christianity as the moral core of American society.

From this standpoint, conservatives can see something appealing about Islam or about any society where there seems to be a general consensus on curbing individualism and individual freedoms. Both Kirk and Foucault admired the sense of moral purity and self-discipline they saw in Khomeni's Iran, and dreamed that such qualities could somehow be brought to what they see as the morally decadent West. D'Souza simply continues this right-wing doctrine. His denunciations of American society are simply a recycled version of the hatred many sorts of ideologues have for real human beings, with all their imperfections, and a free society, in which everyone cannot be made to march to the same drumbeat. But oh, how you conservatives dream of that wonderful day! And that is why some conservatives will begin to buy into the jihadist rant against America. I expect more, not less, of this sentiment on the Right.

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