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Friday, June 08, 2007
William F. Buckley :: Townhall.com Columnist
Yes, Free Libby
by William F. Buckley
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The talk about a pardon for Lewis Libby is food for thought. Partisans are grateful that there is time, even if not much time, to think, pending the appeals that are under way challenging the conviction at a technical level.

There isn't much to hope for here from Libby's point of view. The evidence appears to have been overwhelming that he lied to the FBI, and that in so doing he hindered the execution of justice.

But appeals, even if judicially unpromising, are politically useful. President Bush can legitimately postpone action -- or prolong inaction -- by waiting for the appeals to make their appointed rounds. But he has other things to weigh besides formal guilt. The reason is that although Libby is certainly guilty of having lied, he is not, in the view of weighty arbiters of the law, deserving of a jail sentence.

What he did was to involve himself in a security matter of no consequence. It was of no consequence at the time Libby figured in the proceedings because the nature of Joseph Wilson's mission to Niger had already been revealed in the press, and his wife, Valerie Plame, was already moving out of the covert branch of the CIA. The underlying issue had to do with the authority of the United States to conceal the true commission of people acting covertly for U.S. intelligence.

My own involvement in such a deception became known many years after I practiced it, when a holy member of the liberal elite (the Rev. William Sloane Coffin) dropped the word to somebody that when I was in Mexico City ostensibly doing work for my father, I was actually there doing work for the CIA.

If, while in Mexico, I had been detained by the authorities and asked what I was doing there, my duty would have been to deceive, and I'd have done so without any sense of debt-deferred to my father confessor. The U.S. law making it a crime to disclose the identity of a covert agent is designed to protect such operatives.

In the present case, Mrs. Wilson had already been assigned to non-covert work in the CIA. This means that Libby's mentioning her to reporter Judith Miller wasn't defiant of the law that seeks to provide for the safety of operatives in foreign parts. And he was not charged with having broken that law, but rather with lying to FBI agents about where he had initially obtained his information. Attempting to deflect such an investigation is a very different matter from endangering the life of a CIA agent.

There has been speculation that Libby is unqualified for a pardon because he has not confessed contrition for what he has done. This invites profound moral thought on what is appropriate behavior for someone convicted of a formalistic breach of the law.

Obviously Libby is sorry that he ran afoul of the law. Obviously he is sorry that he didn't find some means to put off the FBI this side of lying to FBI agents. But contrition of that sort is not going to satisfy the Hang Libby crowd. Because what these folks want is to damage the Bush administration. If Libby goes to jail, they will have the satisfaction that a former chief of staff of the vice president is behind bars. If he is pardoned, they will have the satisfaction of claiming that the chief executive is declaring that any crime done in the service of the president will be protected by the exercise of a presidential pardon.

The reason to give thought to the triviality of Libby's offense is precisely to unburden Bush of any sense of collaboration with true crime if he uses his pardoning power. No one, in the perspective of history, believes the first President Bush to have been a furtive advocate of crime when he pardoned Caspar Weinberger or Robert McFarlane for involvement in the Iran-Contra mess. We are not talking about a Mark Rich, an ongoing criminal pardoned by Bill Clinton for indefensible reasons.

Mr. Bush will have to exhibit the courage for which he is loved and hated, by doing the right thing, and letting Mr. Libby get on with life.

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About The Author

William F. Buckley, Jr. is editor-at-large of National Review, the prolific author of Miles Gone By: A Literary Autobiography.

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Poor Libby
How much fence did they build today? So much for triggers. If I were Libby, I would not put any faith in Bush. This is a man who has his own agenda and feels the rest of the US is nothing more than Mary Jo K.; fish food. I smelled something bad with the education $ for Kennedy. But it just seemed no one would be so against his country to swear a oath to protect our borders and systematicaly sell us out. Libby won't get the pardon any more than the two border agents.

Buckley Is Very Wrong
William F. Buckley gets it very wrong. First, Buckley does not deal with the point that Plame was NOT covert within the meaning of the Agent Identities Protection Act and seems incorrectly to assume she was. Second, it is NOT true that it is certain that Libby lied; that's a buch of hooey. As a result, the grounds for appeal are anything but "technical."

I have been writing in recent days on this subject, but Buckley's nonsense requires providing real analysis of what went on in Libby's trial. Unlike Buckley, I am a lawyer -- with 31 years of experience.

The starting point must be that Valerie Plame was NOT "covert" within the meaning of the Agent Identities Protection Act. To be "covert," you need, among other things, to have a foreign posting within the last five years and to have the C.I.A. take affirmative steps to conceal the identity. Plame had been a Washington D.C. desk bound analyst for six or seven years, and her identity was not given the special concealment required. This happens to be the opinion of Victoria Toensing, the lawyer who was a principal draftsperson of what became the 1982 Agent Identities Protection Act for the sponsorship of then Senator Barry Goldwater; and Ms. Toensing has been making this point for some time and explaining that the definition of “covert” was given the definition it was in order not to impede public discussion of public issues.

Special Prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald did not charge anyone with violating the Agent Identities Protection Act -- particularly one Richard Armitage, the one who revealed Victoria Plame to journalist Bob Novak -- because Fitzgerald couldn't charge anyone with violating the Agent Identities Protection Act without directly confronting the problem that he would have to prove that Valerie Plame was covert when she wasn't. The advantage of the perjury and obstruction of justice charges for Fitzgerald was that he could intimate that Plame was covert without having to prove it. My view is that Fitzgerald played a sleazy prosecutor’s game with respect to the issue of what was the non-covert status of Plame. It was his motion the trial judge granted to keep out of the jury's consideration the question of Plame's status, yet in his closing talked about how revealing Plame's identity endangered her, as if that had anything to do with the narrow charges against Libby.

Of course, we cannot tolerate perjury and obstruction of justice. But this perjury and obstruction of justice case was a poor one, based on differences in recollections between Libby and a few journalists (Matthew Cooper and Tim Russert) as to what was said two to three years earlier in conversations that were not documented. Such differences in recollection as to undocumented conversations years old are standard in any case. Indeed, the failures of memory on the part of prosecution witnesses at trial demonstrated the point, which I have known as a litigator for over thirty years. It always is the case that there are differences of recollection as to such undocumented conversations, and it does not mean someone is lying. Also, when there is no underlying crime (and there was not here), bringing a perjury and obstruction case is questionable.

Special Prosecutor Fitzgerald's case succeeded for wrong reasons, among them the following.

First, Fitzgerald's case depended on keeping away from the jury the non-covert status of Plame while painting an alternative universe of painting a Bush Administration striking out at war critic Joe Wilson, instead of what was the case -- an Administration trying to respond to Wilson who, according to the Senate Intelligence Committee, lied in his New York Times op-ed column. Wilson did not do a written report of any kind, much less one that had denied British intelligence as to Saddam's intentions in Africa to purchase yellow cake uranium (mentioned in Bush’s State of the Union Address in the lead up to war); what Wilson did was to give oral comments in a debriefing that Saddam was up to something in Niger, and since yellow cake uranium was the only thing of interest to Saddam in Niger, that seemed if anything to tend to support British intelligence. Also, Wilson was not sent on his trip to Africa by the Vice President, but by his wife Plame. This whole case arose because Bob Novak, an experienced Washington D.C. journalist, asked “who sent Wilson?” Wilson was a left wing Democrat. If Cheney did not send Wilson (and Cheney wouldn’t), who did? The answer was Wilson’s wife; and it was Richard Armitage, one of Secretary of State Powell’s boys at the State Department and an internal critic of the Iraq War, who answered Novak’s question. Yet, Fitzgerald was successful in creating what might be called an alternative universe in the trial courtroom with Wilson and Plame as the victims.

Second, Fitzgerald sought and got a Washington D.C. jury with people hostile to the Bush Administration and susceptible to accepting that Fitzgerald’s alternative universe, with a barbecue buddy of prosecution witness Tim Russert and a former employee of prosecution witness Bob Woodward on that jury. A red state America jury in the heartland would not have returned this verdict. But this Washington D.C. jury did, after asking themselves, reportedly, where were the higher ups in the Bush Administration and why were they not on trial?

Third, Libby's defense team, headed by my Harvard Law School classmate Ted Welles (Class of 1976), did do some good cross-examinations of prosecution witnesses but still made serious mistakes. One mistake was that the defense team did not have Libby testify after Welles seemed to say in his opening statement that Libby would testify. You don’t promise in an opening statement something you don’t later deliver on; and you needed to have had the defendant Scooter Libby speak to the jury directly so that the jury concludes and wants to conclude that if Libby misremembered any conversation, it was not a matter of intentionally lying. Another defense team mistake -- a very bad mistake -- was that the defense team bought into the alternative universe of Fitzgerald, calling Libby the "fall guy," instead of taking on Fitzgerald's case directly. When I read the reports during the trial about Welles taking that position, I had this dreadful feeling that things were going wrong.

There are good articles on the Libby case -- Buckley's is not one of them. Byron York did a fine job of reporting in the National Review Online on the case as it progressed. In terms of opinionated analysis, there is a well considered article by the editors of the Wall Street Journal Online, “The Libby Trial” (March 7, 2007). Among other points, this article makes the criticism of Libby’s defense team that I did above about calling Libby a fall guy and not taking on Fitzgerald’s case; and it is absolutely right for doing so. Charles Krauthammer is a thoughtful mostly conservative commentator for the mostly liberal Washington Post, and Krauthammer’s “Remember Everything -- Or Goes To Prison?” Townhall.com (March 9, 2007) provides a well considered analysis of the case and cites one piece of evidence excluded from evidence at trial that may help obtain a reversal on appeal. Bob Novak was at the center of this larger controversy but on the periphery of the Libby case, and while I disagree with Novak on some subjects, his article “The Lost Scandal,” Townhall.com (March 8, 2007), gives a good perspective. The Editors of National Review Online weigh in with their editorial “Pardon Libby” (March 6, 2007). They rightly condemn the whole case, but I agree with Novak that Bush won’t issue a pardon until the end of his term in office. Fianlly, one of the best pieces on the case was written by Roger Aranoff and Cliff Kincaid, “The Case For Exonerating Libby,” Accuracy In Media Online (March 13, 2007). Aranoff and Kincaid did a really good job of analysis of the case and the trial in a way with which I very much agree, and they make a compelling case for exoneration. Anyone who has read that analysis will want to puke at Buckley's words about it being certain Libby lied. Not so, WFB.

Isn't time for William F. Buckley to retire?

The moral relativism of the Right
Poor Bill Buckley. I've always held the man in high regard for his moral clarity. However, his opinion on this topic is wrong. The basis of the criminal justice system is that there be no deception in the investigation or trial of a possible crime. When an investigator asks you a question, you tell him the truth to the best of your ability. Period.

I can't recall what Mr. Buckley had said about Clinton with his legal problems with obstruction of justice, but I seem to recall that there was not so much mercy. BTW, in my opinion, Clinton had NOT obstructed justice because of the technicality of "is". One can nail him for being a nitpicker on it, but he did not technically mislead - it is reasonable for someone to conclude that coitus is sex, while oral sex is not. No one under investigation needs to divulge any more information then the question requires.

In the larger world of "natural justice", though, it is obvious to all that Libby was misleading to stop investigation of Rove and Cheney. And he did such a good job that the Special Prosecutor that these men went free. The original leaker, Armitage, did it by error, with no malice (as opposed to Rove.)

The primary purpose of criminal punishment is to deter future crime. With Libby serving a 30 month sentence, perhaps someone in the future in a similar situation considering engaging in a cover-up will think about the possible consequences and come to the conclusion that it's just not worth it to lie and evade.

Phil Byler
It looks like you need to take WFB's job. You very eloquently put on paper everything that most Conservatives have been trying to argue, albeit unsuccessfully with the "Daily KOS" hopovers.

The only thing that I do think should be added to your analysis is that although Ted Welles did make some mistakes in his defense, I think that it would be fair to go back to your point about the Jury being from Washington D.C. which is somewhere around 90% Democrat. Even if Welles had not made any mistakes, this Jury made it clear with their statements after the trial that they were convicting Libby of the percieved crime of outing a Covert agent, and were disappointed that they couldn't convict more people in the administration.
From everything I had read, Scooter Libby definately had enough to request a mistrial, but isn't it also true that a ruling for a mistrial has to go through the same judge (whom I don't believe is going to be willing to admit that he ran a sham for a trial)?

Free Libby
I wonder if I can get a "Free Libby" t-shirt somewhere.

What do you call it when...
...a prosecutor knows that no crime was committed, but "investigates" anyway -- but only certain individuals?

Why was Fitzy not leaning on Armitage?

If Bush fails to pardon Libby, it will be out of polical cowardice.

How Republicans in office can be understand terrorists, and international threats, and the dynamics of dealing with communists, but at the same time be so STUPID when it comes to domestic politics is beyond my understanding.

And Democrats are just the opposite.

We'll see what behaviors
a failure to pardon will encourage -- not only among Democrats, but Republicans working for Bush.

On the upside, Libby will be able to make millions writing a book.

Byler eloquence
With an abundance of well reasoned arguments against Buckley, Byler's eloquence is exceeded by his naivete.
norman summed up the real problem with just two even more well reasoned paragraphs.

Think OJ, Byler, OJ OJ OJ.........get it?

Byler eloquence
My apologies, Phil Byler, I entirely missed your:

Second, Fitzgerald sought and got a Washington D.C. jury with people hostile to the Bush Administration and susceptible to accepting that Fitzgerald’s alternative universe, with a barbecue buddy of prosecution witness Tim Russert and a former employee of prosecution witness Bob Woodward on that jury. A red state America jury in the heartland would not have returned this verdict. But this Washington D.C. jury did, after asking themselves, reportedly, where were the higher ups in the Bush Administration and why were they not on trial?
________________________________________________

So I will flag my own posting as offensive, there's no excuse.



Steve O
I call it a witch hunt and a waste of tax dollars along with abuse of power.

Phil
Well written for the umpteenth time.
Sorry that isn't directed at you. I am frustrated since I have been following this from the begginning. I even gave to Scooter's defense fund I feel so strongly about this. This whole thing was an effort directed at Bush and Scooter took the bullet. I will leave my theories to later as to why it happened, but let's just say the UN and diplomat Wilson and you can probably connect the dots. Maybe Ol' Buck has lost it since his wife died.

About what???
"On the upside, Libby will be able to make millions writing a book."

That assumes that Libby will report on all the interesting parts of the case before others beat him to it, which I doubt.Those items are: Wilson getting the factfinding gig, his findings, analysis of his findings, what people said about his findings, people who complained that he got the gig through cronyism, complaints over the airing the name of an alleged covert operative, analysis of both sets of complaints, analysis of the fairness and competence of the Patrick Fitzgerald investigation, analysis of the veracity of witnesses (I have heard that some witnesses changed their testimony, but can't find a link right off), legal analysis of the case itself, theories about why Fitzgerald has closed up shop after getting this conviction (evidently he has no evidence that outing Plame was a crime).

Don't Let Libby Go, DUH!
Scooter Libby was convicted lawfully, and it does not befit the President to circumvent the law by granting pardons except in the most exceptional of cases. Whether you agree with the conviction or not, he was given due process, and his offense was deemed to be punishable by jail time. Many pettier criminals get longer jail times (like a 17-year-old who received oral sex from a 15-year-old in Georgia, consensual by both parties and initiated by the 15-year-old, and was punished by a 10-year jail sentence). If Scooter Libby goes to jail, as the law requires him to do, the President should not interfere with Justice unless there is an exceptionally good reason, which is lacking here.

If Libby's sentence is revoked on appeal, then he should be let free. As per the law. It's quite unbecoming for persons in power to circumvent the law because they are friends with the President.

mauro7inf
I disagree with several points in your post while you do make a semi valid point about the 17 year old (I say semi valid, because people involved with that trial who have seen the videotape of the sexual encounter disagree with whether there was consent).

First, Libby has not recieved the due process afforded him until all his appeals are used up, this includes a pardon. The pardon is part of due process, whether it is used to circumvent the law, or to correct an error made by judges and juries.

Second, If, as most Conservatives believe happened in the Libby case, the trial contained blatant misdeeds by the attorneys, the Judge or the jurists, to the point that the trial could and should be called a mistrial, then Libby had not actually recieved the due process afforded to him. At which point the Constitution would require that he be given a new and fair trial. Unfortunately this is based on the opinion of the original Judge, and since most judges won't admit their own mistakes and call a mistrial, you can't count on the original judge to afford someone due process if they haven't done so the first time.

Your last point would hold weight if no other president before Bush, ever used their Presidential Pardons except in extreme cases. Unfortunately we know from 6 years ago that it seems that Presidential Pardons were meant to be given to family members (I think it was Clinton's brother-in-law), or sold to the highest bidder (Mark Rich). I'm not saying that it is right, I'm just saying that it is reality.

Pardoning Libby would probably be the best thing the President could do now. The reason is that no matter how much Libs scream and cry about how a Libby Pardon would hurt the President, the President's approval is already bottomed out with them. They hate Bush, they've already declared him the worst president in history, quickly forgetting the putrid filth that was the Carter Administration, and forgetting the scandal ridden Clinton years. No matter how many times he's tried to cozy up with the Libs (NCLB, Immigration reform, Harriet Miers ect...) they will always claim that Bush was the most partisan president ever. It's Conservatives that he needs to make happy. It's the Conservatives who have been angered by his incessant pandering to the left, his refusal to reduce government size, his attempt to allow Mexico to invade us and then use harsher rhetoric on his supporters than he does for his political opponents. Liberals already have their place in their history books for President Bush. But it is Conservatives who will decide where President Bush stands in their minds... closer to Regan... or closer to Carter. Unless Bush pardons Libby, he's going to be stuck with a Jimmy Carter legacy.

To swampwiz on the sentence
The Libby sentence was in excess of the guidelines for perjury and obstruction and justice, and therein lies a very serious problem. What Fitzgerald sought to sentence Libby for was supposedly violating the Agent Identities Prtotection Act -- never mind that Libby was not even charged with violating the statute and evidence as to Plame's status and thus the applicability of the Agent Identities Protection Act was kept out of evidence at trial. What the sentencing judge seemed to say is that the sentence was justified by the strength of evidence as to Libby lying and by the need to deter others in the Bush Adminsitration -- never mnd that the evidence against Libby was weak and there was no factual basis for importing a need for deterrence of other Bush officials.

I submit this was all wrong, a blatant effort to victimize one person in Scooter Libby in order to hit at the Bush Adminsitration. To the extent that the sentence rests upon holding Libby for violating a statute under which he was not even indicted, that is a clear denial of Due Process of Law. That constitutional clause was about preventing these very kind of situations, not conferring substantive rights such as abortion on demand and homosexual sodomy.

To Others
Thanks for the compliments. No offense taken as to anything.

Add to the pardon list
"Unless Bush pardons Libby, he's going to be stuck with a Jimmy Carter legacy"

Remember to add some innocent Border Patrol agents to the list. It is an opportunity for Bush to partially redeem his legacy. At the moment he is almost tied with Jiminy.

Politcal Trial
The Libby trial was a political trial. My question has always been did Libby know he was not being factually accurate at the time he made the statement alleged to have been a lie. By law one must know that one is lying for it to be a violation of law. When Hillary Clinton testified she used the comment over and over 'I hvae no specific recollection of that.' It was later more than apparent that she did have these recollections. In my career as a detective I have interviewed thousands of witnesses and I have dealt with human memory. Being uwittingly inacurrate in a statement or forgetting is not a crime.

Just remember that Bill Clinton did not have sex with that woman, Monica Lewinsky.

The problem I have with Fitzgerald is that he knew early in his investigation that he had no crime. Why did he continue? The answer is that he needed a head on a pike to be successful. I guess in his world it is better to be successful than ethical.

Phil Byler's snowjob
Your argument that Plame was not covert rests entirely on Victoria Toensing's interpretation of the law. George Tenent has testified that she was covert and that they were trying to conceal her identity. Valerie Plame has testified that she was covert. And I'm not sure if you have your facts straight with respect to her overseas travel. Nor am I sure if that technicality is critical to the interpretation of the law.

Also, the argument that Libby didn't leak because Armitage did, doesn't hold water. It is possible, is it not, that Armitage leaked, and so did Libby and Rove, right?

And your argument that Libby didn't lie is laughable. Five separate individuals, including Ari Fliescher, testified that Libby had talked to them about Valerie Plame. Which totally contradicts Libby's testimony that, just days after these conversations, he was talking to Tim Russert and he was "surprised" to learn that Wilson's wife worked at the CIA. Further complicating Libby's testimony is the fact that Russert said that Wilson's wife never came up in their conversation.

You've got six people directly contradicting Libby's testimony. Is it really so surprising that a jury would find Libby's story tough to believe?

And your argument that the jury was "hostile to the Bush administration" is based purely on your own speculation. Do you have ANY evidence to back up your claim other than overly-broad demographics?

And another thing: You have repeatedly claimed that Joe Wilson lied in his op-ed. Please site for me the precise words in that op-ed that you claim constitute a lie.

Phylo out.

Pardon Libby
Mr. B:

That was the most clearly defined narrative of the Libby situation I have read and should be read by everyone.

It is a miracle when I find something so well done I cannot add a morsel of wisdom.

American's unite. Write everyone. This is an abuse by soured minds of a true patriot.

Don Jones
MyManFred.com

Yeah Right!
And Hillary couldn't remember and had no idea where the missing law office records, that mysteriously turned up, came from!

How many times has the world's smartest woman testified: " I can't recall!" and gotten a pass on it?


There They Go Again!
Swampwiz, with galling liberal aplomb, defends Bubba' perjury and obstruction of justice thusly:

"One can nail him for being a nitpicker on it, but he did not technically mislead - it is reasonable for someone to conclude that coitus is sex, while oral sex is not. No one under investigation needs to divulge any more information then [sic] the question requires."

Sir, this kind of juvenile tap-dancing around the many outrages of the Clinton administration is so typical of you socialist street urchins. To even argue the matter with you psychotic Clinton defenders is rather like a parent trying to explain to a five year old boy that there is little difference, in the possible injuries sustained, whether he clubs his sister with a Tonka truck or baseball bat.

Like every liberal I have ever met, you start with an unexamined premise and skip right on up to an equally shaky conclusion. Sir, only to you amoral leftists could a blow*** fall outside the category of sex. This sophmoric assertion is so ludicrous, and so counterintuitive, that only a disingenuous lefty (but I repeat myself) could actually believe such a thing. What's "reasonable" to most of you leftists generally strikes the rest of us as either dishonest, felonious, immoral or criminal.









IS Guilty?

Whether Libby IS guilty of anything depends upon a persons definition of "what the meaning of IS, IS".

Libby's prosecution and trial had nothing to do with "due process", as some have posted, but with "gotcha!" politics. If this be "justice", I'd just as soon pass.

To Phylo Se Fiser: There You Go Again
There you go again, Phylo, with nonsense.

1. My position that Plame was NOT covert within the meaning of the Agent Identities Protection Act is based on the application of the statutory definition of "covert" to the known facts about Plame. I am a lawyer with a Harvard Law degree and 31 years of experience, including an initial two years as a law clerk to a U.S. COurt of Appeals judge. My opinion happens to coincide with that of Victoria Toensing, the lawyer who drafted the Act for the sponsorship of Barry Goldwater. If you want to call all that a "snowjob," go ahead. But I think that is silly on your part.

2. Because Plame was not covert, because the CIA did not take the necessary steps to conceal Plame's identity as covert, and because Libby did not know Plame was covert (because she wasn't), Libby did not violate the Agent Identities Protection Act -- period. So you cannot rationaly discuss Libby in terms of his "leaking." Neither did Armitage, technically speaking, "leak." Armitage was, however, the one who told Bob Novak that Plame sent her husbamd on the trip to Niger; it was common knowledge in Washington D.C. who Plame was such that gossips such as Armitage would talk about her; that's not a covert agent. Again, Fitzgerald did not indict anyone for violation of the Agent Identitiews Protection Act and moved successfully to keep out of evidence proof as to Plame's identity. But that did not stop Fitzgerald from successfully arguing to the jury about Plame's status aand successfully seeking to punish Libby as if Libby had violated that Agent Identities Protection Act. What about denial of due of process and prosecutorial misconduct do you not understand?

3. Your analysis of the trial is based on a faulty premise. You make the assumption that if someone misremembers conversations of years ago for which there is not documentation of the substance of those conversations, that means someone is lying. Baloney. Faulty recollection of conversations more recent than the ones in Libby's case is par for the course in litigation (three decades of experience has taught me that); it does not mean anyone is lying. In fact, what was established at trial -- this was what Ted Welles did well in cross-examinination -- was that the Government witnesses had just as bad if not worse recollection as Libby about various conversations they had had. Also, Plame per se was not at the center of Libby's responsibilities; when Libby was talking with people, he was dealing with a lot of subjects. Who said what when is not a good basis for a perjury case when there was no underlying substantive criem committed.

4. The statement that six people directly contradicted Libby is not supportable. Libby's recollection of conversations did differ with others, who had their own inconsistencies; and we are talking about conversations -- who said what when. Again, who said what when is not a good basis for a perjury case when there was no underlying substantive criem committed.

5. So you deny that the Libby jury was hostile to the Bush Administration. Earth to Phylo: get real.

To rocker
Go back to Kos, or attempt to deal with the substantive points being made in the discussion here.

To Phylo: Addendum
I was going to ignore your last point because you keep purporting to make the challenge you do about Wilson lying in his op-ed and I keep telling you. The last time was Wednesday, June 6 at 8:31 PM. My post reads:

"To Phylo

"I went to work after posting earlier this morning and thus did not see your 8:44 PM post requesting to be told again what Wilson did to lie in his op-ed column. You can feign all you want about being confused or that what I write is confusing, but that is false posturing. What I am writing is clear; you just don't want to accept it.

"Wilson stated in his op-ed that Bush knew that Saddam was not seeking yellow cake uranium in Africa and thus in his State of the Union Address was being dishonest by referring to Brit intelligence that Saddam was seeking yellow cake uranium in Niger. Wilson stated that Bush knew better because of his (Wilson's) report based on his (Wilson's) trip to Niger after Cheney had made inquiries about the subject. That was knowingly false. Wilson had made no written report at all, and what comments he made in his debriefing at the CIA were consistent with Brit intelligence about Saddam seeking yellow cake uranium in Africa because what was orally reported by Wilson was that Saddam was up to something in Niger -- and the only thing of interest to Saddam in Niger was yellow cake uranium. Also, the wording in the op-ed column clearly implied that Cheney had sent Wilson. Cheney, however, had not sent Wilson and would not send Wilson, a known left wing Democrat on such a sensitive mission. It was that implication that started Bob Novak to make inquiries because the obvious question was: who sent Wilson? It was Richard Armitage at the State Department who told Novak -- it was Wilson's wife, Plame."

Don't, Phylo, ever pretend again that you have not been told this; you have many times.

Re; Phil Byler
Dead wrong.

You couldn't be more dead wrong then if you went the wrong way on a freeway on ramp.

What Patrick Fitzgerald said was that the Agent Identities Protection Act was not prosecutable and that his intention was to put Congress on notice that the law needed to be rewritten.

Valerie Plame met every standard of the Agent Identities Protection Act definition of covert. Every one.

What Fitzgerald couldn't do was prosecute a poorly written law.

The Stupid Party Deserves Defeat
Bucko, I hear you, but one of the biggest problems anymore is not so much "gotcha" politics, but that only one side is playing the game.

Whereas the MSM and the democrats (same thing) relentlessly dig up sh** and routinely go after republicans for even 40 year old speeding tickets, The Stupid Party doesn't say crap about the criminals in the democrat party. Not only that, when decent men like DeLay, Libby and all the rest are maliciously prosecuted for absolutely nothing, the Stupid party throws them under the bus, as if that will appease these bastards.

Can you even begin to imagine the field day the MSM and dems would have if The Stupid Party had guys like Barney Frank, William Jeferson, Ted Kennedy, Diane Fienstien and all the rest of them doing their thing? Nope no matter how many crooks, perverts, embezzlers, perjurers and liars the democrats toss at The Stupid Party, they sit back and don't say diddley squat.

And as if this were not enough, the dems refuse to debate on FOX News because of its "bias." What is The Stupid Party's response to that? Why to allow that Pomeranian on crystal meth, Chris Mathews, to host THEIR debate! But it gets even better. The Stupid Party then follows up that brilliant stroke with allowing CNN's Wolf Blitzer to host another one!

What's next? Does Jimmy Carter or Michael Moore get to host The Stupid Party's next debate? Even though I despise the democrats, at least they aren't stupid.


Libby
You're double standard is showing. When those who recommend throwing the book at anybody and everyboby, who have been deemed lawbreakers and liars, make excuses because of party politics, it's hypocritical and dishonest.
If people did their jobs as mandated and kept their mouthe shut, as mandadted, instead of playing fast and loose with leaks to the media, there wouldn't have been a case in the first place. If they live by playing fast and loose with the law, they're taking a chance of getting caught. Loyalty is not a legal defense.
Sharon

Libby is guilty
Even the arch conservative Buckley can see through the partisan chatter clearly enough to acknowledge that Libby is guilty. No wonder. Libby claimed that after being given Plame's name by the VP, with the charge of getting to the bottom of the connection to the Niger trip, then talks to nearly a dozen people about Plame, including 6 executive branch officials over the course of 6 weeks, but is then 'suprised' to hear from Russert about Plame. This is simply not cridible. Additionally, we are not talking about memories of events of years past, the leaks occurred in the summer, Libby invented his alibi that fall. Most importantly, Libby gave this misleading information to the FBI in the course of an ongoing felony investigation which was barely two weeks old. Again, the guy is guilty and does not deserve to be pardoned.

to Phil Byler
I'll get to your other post soon enough, but first I need to correct your Joe Wilson non-sense.

Phil Byler: "Wilson stated in his op-ed that Bush knew that Saddam was not seeking yellow cake uranium in Africa and thus in his State of the Union Address was being dishonest by referring to Brit intelligence that Saddam was seeking yellow cake uranium in Niger.

Phylo: I don't think you've read Wilson's op-ed because he never said this. What he said was

"It did not take long to conclude that it was highly doubtful that any such transaction had ever taken place."

That's a direct quote from the op-ed. The key word there is "transaction" Phil. "transaction". He did not say that no "attempt" had taken place.

And nowhere in the op-ed does Wilson say that Bush knew Saddam was not seeking yellow cake. Nowhere Phil.


Phil Byler: "Wilson stated that Bush knew better because of his (Wilson's) report based on his (Wilson's) trip to Niger after Cheney had made inquiries about the subject. That was knowingly false. Wilson had made no written report at all..."

Phylo: Wilson never said he made a written report. In fact, here's what he said in the op-ed. Again, this is a direct quote:

"Though I did not file a written report, there should be at least four documents in United States government archives confirming my mission. The documents should include the ambassador's report of my debriefing in Niamey, a separate report written by the embassy staff, a C.I.A. report summing up my trip, and a specific answer from the agency to the office of the vice president (this may have been delivered orally). While I have not seen any of these reports, I have spent enough time in government to know that this is standard operating procedure."

So, again, Phil you facts are way off.


Phil Byler: and what comments he made in his debriefing at the CIA were consistent with Brit intelligence about Saddam seeking yellow cake uranium in Africa because what was orally reported by Wilson was that Saddam was up to something in Niger -- and the only thing of interest to Saddam in Niger was yellow cake uranium.

Phylo: What he said was that it was highly unlikely that a transaction ever could've occurred. And this is important to understand because it renders the Bitish Intel irrelevant. After all, who cares if he inquired into getting uranium from Niger if he couldn't actually get any. (Besides, Saddam already had enough yellowcake to make 50 nuclear weapons. It was the refining ability that was holding him up; not the supply of uranium.)


Phil Byler: "Also, the wording in the op-ed column clearly implied that Cheney had sent Wilson. Cheney, however, had not sent Wilson and would not send Wilson, a known left wing Democrat on such a sensitive mission."

Phylo: This is what he said in his op-ed:

"In February 2002, I was informed by officials at the Central Intelligence Agency that Vice President Dick Cheney's office had questions about a particular intelligence report."

That's the only mention of Cheney in the op-ed. So how in the world is that a lie?

Phil, I'm sorry to say but you seem to be terribly misinformed on this issue. I don't care where you went to school, or how many years you've practiced law. You've simply got your facts wrong.

And if you've gotten your facts so wrong in this instance, I think we should all be skeptical about everything else you've had to say on this subject.

Phylo out.

wrong again phil
Phil byler: "Your analysis of the trial is based on a faulty premise. You make the assumption that if someone misremembers conversations of years ago for which there is not documentation of the substance of those conversations, that means someone is lying."

Phylo: Wrong Phil. My premise is that, if a person says something that is directly contradicted by six other people, it's a pretty safe assumption that the one person is lying.

Also, we're not talking about minor details that could easily be forgotten or misremembered. Wilson's op-ed created a huge firestorm in the VP's office. This is not the kind of thing that can easily slip one's memory. You're fooling yourself if you think that this is somehow like not remembering what you had for breakfast three years ago.

Phylo out.

Thanks Mr. Byler!
Great stuff! Maybe some lawyers are ok after all!lol
I do still like WFB though. I'm not a lawyer nor do I even have a degree, but I knew this whole Libby thing was political from the start!!
Also, "JailTheSocialistStreetUrchins" is sooooo correct!! The GOP is the stupid party!!
I don't want them to be sleazy like the Dems, but come on!! Get some backbone!! They are on a downward slide!!

and another thing Phil
Just because you went to Harvard Law and have practiced law for thirty years, does not mean that you are the final word on whether or not Plame was covert. Personally, I'll take Valerie Plame's word, and the word of her boss, George Tenent, over yours any day; particularly after seeing how many things you got wrong about Wilson's op-ed. Are you always so intellectually sloppy?

Phylo out.

Buckley is a fraud!
Buckley is a fraud and always has been! And that's what he is, a has been!

You pardon the border agents first you leftist effeminate hag!

What other so called conservative gets to be on PBS throughout their life? Who directed the neo-cons to power and betrayed the conservative movement? That's right, Buckley and his Trotskyite buddies!

Read the book about him and open your eyes.

William F. Buckley, Pied Piper for the Establishment!
http://aobs-store.com/shop-bin/sc/productsearch.cgi?storeid=*164c66e7a715806d0641414b65

You can take the neo-con out of Trotsky, but you cant take Trotsky out of the neo-con! Its time to get him kicked off every "conservative" platform.

Conservatives united agaisnt pink elephants!

craigers
Yup, Buckley is a traitor, in spades.

The Stupid Party
Can anyone imagine the reaction of these leftist trolls in TH if the republicans all of a sudden got a brain and told the dems that they owe them TWO - next two times the dems debate, Charles Krauthammer and Sean Hannity get to host them!

Of course, they would come back with, "Well, Pomeranian Chris Mathews and Wolf Schitzer are not liberals! Har de har de effin' har har har!

Are we The Stupid Party or what!!!!!!!!!!

Fourth Amendment issues
I have utmost respect for Wm. F. Buckley and for his immense contribution to the conservative cause. However, in recent years I have noticed a trend of his uncritical acceptance of the MSM narrative of current events. To accept the MSM version of anything without questioning is an acceptance of half-truths, distortions and outright deceptions. At Mr. Buckley's station in life, I do not condemn him for mental laxity, but merely note it.

The Plame leak case is one of the more blatant examples of MSM false narratives. I commend Phil Byler's 11:17 pm posting above for its accuracy and honest analysis of this sordid affair. Let me add another point in Libby's favor.

Under the Fourth Amendment, we are protected from unreasonable search and seizures unless probable cause has been supported by Oath or affirmation. The entire basis for this investigation was violation of the AIPA. Unless Plame was protected under the Act, as supported by Oath or affirmation, then the investigation was unconstitutional. Fitzgerald had no such Oath or affirmation. He had "suggestions" from highly partisan actors (Chuck Schumer, for instance), but innuendo falls woefully short of the Constitutional test.

Fitzgerald's first duty was to confirm that a crime had occurred, which he never did. He never got an Oath or affirmation to justify the rounding up and questioning of people. When he later asserted that it was irrelevant whether or not the AIPA had been violated, it was an unethical man's way of admitting there never was a case in the first place. He is truly a loathsome character.

I will differ with others on the pardon question. The appeals process may well reverse Libby's conviction, so I say let that move forward. That would give Libby vindication within the normal due process procedures. In addition, a pardon would end the whole matter, and I believe Fitzgerald and Judge Walton should not get off the hook for their bad behavior. These two jerks should eventually have to answer for their many abuses of the legal system.

Again, to Mr. Buckley, thanks for all you have done in past decades, and enjoy your retirement.

JSSU
How funny would that be--the democratic candidates debating with Sean Hannity as host. Krauthammer would probably be pretty good but no one except Hannity would ever get a word in. LOL. I think the Democrats blew it--if they debated for MSNBC, Fox as I understand it has a larger audience and they should debate there too.

Fitzgerald said Libby's lie was too blatant to ignore. I am a democrat but I don't think Libby should get so much jail time as it was so obvious he was protecting either Cheney or Rove. It's not an excuse, I know. I don't think he should get anymore time than Martha Stewart did.

I agree
If the appeal process fails, President Bush should pardon Mr. Libby immediately!

And, as others have said before me, he should also pardon the border patrol agents at the same time!!

Why not? He certainly can't get any lower ratings - those who are tired of politics entering the courtrooms of America won't mind one bit!

Scooter
First thing we should do is ban anyone with a cute, Ivy-League from government service. Here's Scooter, we had Brownie in New Orleans, Cheney is "Big Time," -- how much more of this stuff can we take?

It appears that there is a difference of opinio over whether Scooter broke a law, or whether the law was even applicable. So what he might have done is not remember something when questioned about a non-law. For this he gets pretty major slam time.

Is this a police state? Is Franz Kafka in the next room? The law questions you about a law that doesn't exist and that you haven't broken, but because you can't remember some details, you go to jail.

Bush should pardon Scooter right now and let the chips fall where they may. The Evil Party would go nuts for a while, and the Stupid Party would dither, but eventually, the people would see that Scooter broke no law that merits jail time and that the whole thing is a tempest in a teacup.

And, safe to say, it would energize the Stupid Party base as would nothing else except an indictment of Hillary. If our boy George wants to play at being a Texan, here's the chance. Stand by your man, George!

Barry

OK, Rickles, You Moderate!
Dona261, you gotta be kidding me!!! It's absolutely astonishing how you socialist street urchins are so effin' blind to the faults and limitations of your own heroes.

Here you have the audacity to observe that Hannity would dominate any demmie debate while totally ignoring how that Pomeranian on crystal meth, Chris Mathews, spent the whole hour yapping like some little pissant Pomeranian with a sharp stick up his butt. Much the same can be said of that leftist bag of hot air, Wolf Blitzer.

Under the circumstances, given the mockery these two psychotic lefties made of the republican debate, and also the way they dominated the entire charade, we could put up Don Rickles, load him with a few hundred amphetamines, and he still wouldn't come close to the air time these two leftist shills hogged during those debates.

Gimmee a freakin' break, will ya? But we ARE The Stupid Party - no doubt about that!

To Rocker...
and the rest of the lefties in here. Since you seem to want to spout the same crap about Republican hypocracy, I figured I would repost an earlier posting of mine...

"I really enjoy reading...
The libs on this site spouting off about Republican hypocracy when it comes to this case.
First off... We're conservatives first, not Republicans. We affiliate more closely with the Republican party when the Republicans display that they share similar values to our own. We are willing to side with Democrats that share our values also (such as my local Congressman who is a Democrat in a very Conservative area), or in certain situations when a Democrat takes the correct position on an extremely important issue even if it means alienating his base (see Joe Lieberman).

Next, Conservatives are strong on the rule of law when one of our representatives has abused it. Our representatives understand this and tend to resign before facing the ire of their constituents. We don't shed any tears for the likes of Duke Cunningham. To Mark Foley we say good riddance, even though what he did wasn't illegal, we find it morally repugnant.

Unlike Liberals, we are very willing to throw out and fry one of our own who we believe broke the law. What we will balk at though is Liberal attempts at political and character assasinations.

We will stand up and voice our disgust when we believe that an indictment, a conviction and a sentencing has been done for purely political reasons or when a law is unfairly applied or an investigation is used to entrap.

We will object when an investigation into doctor shopping backpain medicine and viagra prescribed under an assumed name, is meant to cause embarrassment and political fallout rather than an actual adherence to the law.

We will object to a prosecutor shopping an indictment though five grand juries over a law that didn't exist when the supposed crime had occured.

And we will absolutely object to Scooter Libby's situation where he couldn't be convicted of the serious crime that was being investigated, so instead he is convicted on trumped up charges based purely on his and other's memories which were all proven to be terrible. And we will object when the prosecutor breaks his own rules set forth at the beginning of the trial, that the original details of the actual leak case won't be discussed except for the instances that pertain directly to the perjury trial. And of course we object to the recreation of the conviction of Libby of perjury and obstruction of justice into a conviction of the entire administration of the original crime.

Most of all though... we Conservatives adamantly object to the obvious doublestandard Liberals have pertaining to who the law should be applied to... see Sandy Burger, John Murtha, Bill and Hillary, Harry Reid, the NYT (and whoever in the CIA it is that leaks everything that Bush is doing to try and fight the WOT just to try and cause scandal), Joe Wilson and Valerie Plame... ect... ect.

In summary, if Conservatives are hypocrites, name the last time a Democrat was thrown out of office, or resigned from Congress for illegal behavior... and no, agreeing with the President on the War does not count."

Conservatives are not hypocrites for wanting to see the rule of law FAIRLY applied.

My response to Phil Bylar
"To be 'covert,' you need, among other things, to have a foreign posting within the last five years and to have the C.I.A. take affirmative steps to conceal the identity." -- Phil Byler

Well, Phil, are you sure that Ms. Wilson had no "foreign posting"? What kind of noncovert employee has her own sham CIA front company [Brewster-Jennings], Phil? And if the CIA itself sets up Ms. Wilson with a fake company, doesn't it make sense that the CIA was striving to conceal her identity? (Indeed, one of the first things to appear in the Washington Post after Ms. Wilson was a declaration that Brewster-Jennings operations were now kaput).

What EXACTLY do you know, Phil, about what Ms. Wilson did each day for the over the last several years of her employment there? And if the answer is "next to nothing," do you suppose that you could shut up, okay? PLEASE?

Maybe we should ponder the people who Ms. Wilson worked for. It was Bush's CIA itself that referred Ms. Wilson's outing to the Justice Department for criminal prosecution, wasn't it, Phil? Why do you suppose that is, Phil, if the CIA managers knew she wasn't undercover? Why do you suppose that Bushie never declared "she wasn't covert!" thereby limiting the political damage? (Instead Bush treated the matter as quite serious). And the current CIA director indicated to Congressman Henry Waxman that Ms. Wilson was covert, right Phil? Mr. Fitzgerald also asserts that Ms. Wilson was covert, and he knows not only the relevant statutes, but also may have a tiny, tiny amount of more information about what Ms. Wilson did for the CIA than you do, wouldn't you say so, Phil?

"Special Prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald did not charge anyone with violating the Agent Identities Protection Act -- particularly one Richard Armitage, the one who revealed Victoria Plame to journalist Bob Novak -- because Fitzgerald couldn't charge anyone with violating the Agent Identities Protection Act without directly confronting the problem that he would have to prove that Valerie Plame was covert when she wasn't." -- Phil Byler

Uh, Phil, use your logic here. Couldn't there possibly be a completely DIFFERENT reason why Fitz didn't charge anyone, namely, that Fitz did not believe that he could prove beyond a reasonable doubt that that any of the leakers (Armitage, Rove, Libby) except Fleischer (who was granted immunity by Fitz) KNEW that Ms. Wilson was covert when they outed her but intentionally outed her nonetheless? Isn't such knowledge required by your beloved, "Agent Identities Protection Act"? Yes or no, Phil? Why do you suppose that Armitage cries like a baby that he didn't know??

"But this perjury and obstruction of justice case was a poor one, based on differences in recollections between Libby and a few journalists (Matthew Cooper and Tim Russert) as to what was said two to three years earlier in conversations that were not documented." -- Phil Byler

Phil, do you have any idea how many people testified against Libby? Why don't you sit down and go over these individuals' testimony and then get back to us. "Difference in recollection"? Hell, Libby would have us believe that the seven-plus people who testified against him are all messed up, and that reporters give him information, rather than the other way around. Fleischer-told-Gregory-who-told-Russert-who-told-Libby as the Libby-saving scenario? A bit preposterous, isn't it? But if it's so, did the defense ever call Gregory to testify that he told Russert?

"A red state America jury in the heartland would not have returned this verdict." -- Phil Byler

Yeah, and that's what is chilling about living in the red states, so far from the "reality-based community."

To drivebyposting
Your 12:28 PM post asserts that I am dead wrong, but then only summarilym, without any explanation, asserts (i) that the Agent Identities Protection Act was not prosecutable and Fitzgerald was only putting Congress on notice that the statute was badly written and (ii) that Plame met the requirements of "covert" under the Agent Identities Protection Act. On both counts, you are the one who is dead wrong.

A prosecution can be brought under the Agent Identities Protection Act; you just have to have a case that fits its requirements. Fitzgerald simply did not have that case, and he was not putting Congress on notice of anything when he made his assertions about the Act in his sentencing recommendation. He was being a dishonest prosecutor. Also, the Agent Identities Protection Act was well written. As Victoria Toensing has explained, the requirements are so drafted, among other things, so as not to create a First Amendment problem.

None of the requirements of the definition of "covert" in the Agent Identities Protection Act were met by Plame. If you say, as you do, she met every requirement, you have to explain that statement. You don't. The bottom line is that Plame did not have a foreign posting in the last five years and the CIA did not take the necessary steps to conceal Plame's identity.

To Herman
1. I have correctly stated the statutory definition of "covert" in the Agent Identiies Protection Act and have applied it to the known facts about Plame. All you do is to say: How do I know? No one, however, has ever asserted that Plame has had a foreign posting in the last five years, only that she has taken some foreign trips, which is not enough under the statute; and the CIA did not take the requisite steps to conceal Plame's identity -- a Washington D.C. gossip such as Armitage knew who she was and what she did and that is why Armitage could tell what he did to Novak.

2. Your suggestion that the CIA should determine whether someone is covert is not well conceived. Any effort the CIA makes to claim that someone is covert under the statute has to meet the requirements of the statute. It is ultimately a matter for a court to decide. On ething is clear here: Fitzgerald shied away from any court test.

3. You argue that I should use my logic about the point that Fitzgerald did not charge anyone with violating the Agent Identities Protection Act. but then you make an argument the logic of which I don't follow. Fitzgerald probably did conclude that he could not prove a violation of the Agent Identities Protection Act for a number of reasons. But did it ever occur to you that
Washington gossipers like Armitage did not consider Plame covert because everyone knew who she was and that she worked at the CIA. A truly covert agent would not have the notoriety that Plame had.

4. There were a lot of people who testified as to this detail and that detail. But the case against Libby was premised about the differences in recollection as to how said what when in conversations between Libby and a few journalists. Read the indictment. Furthermore, it was not those differences that the jury was focusing on; it was why higherups in the Bush Administration weren't being tried -- because Fitzgerald's case was really about Plame being endangered by the "revelation" that she was the one who sent Joe Wilson to Niger, never mind that Fitzgerald successfully kept out of evidence proof as to Plame's actual status.

5. A red state jury would not convict because the evidence was not there. Your superiority complex as to red states is misconceived. I have lived in both red and blue states. The better, more decent people are in the red states. Blue states have a lot of leftists who think they are smart but in fact are really dumb.

To Phylo Se Fiser
Your defense of the Joe Wilson op-ed column is disingenuous. you quote parts of the op-ed column in order to give an innocent spin on the words written. Cute.

The bottom line is that Bush cited Brit intelligence -- a reputable source -- in his State of the Union Address about Saddam seeking yellow cake uranium in Africa, and Wilson wrote an op-ed column to assert that which what people have used to say Bush lied. Bush did not lie; he relied on Brit intelligence that the Brits have stood on to this very day and that translated Saddam governments verified. The point was that Saddam was seeking yellow cake uranium; and therein lay the danger. Wilson argued that the Bush Administration had in hand a report that would have told Bush not to rely on Brit intelligence. But that was not the case at all.

Wilson's oral report included the comment that Saddam was up to something in Niger, but the only thing of interest in Niger to Saddam would be yellow cake uranium. That was consistent with Brit intelligence.

I have two pieces of advice for you. One, give up defending Joe Wilson. He was castigated by the Senate Intelligence Committee foir his dishonesty and by the Washington Post. Two, ask yourself: where did you get your superiority/inferiority complex?

Phil is right... Herman is wrong
"Well, Phil, are you sure that Ms. Wilson had no "foreign posting"? What kind of noncovert employee has her own sham CIA front company [Brewster-Jennings], Phil? And if the CIA itself sets up Ms. Wilson with a fake company, doesn't it make sense that the CIA was striving to conceal her identity? (Indeed, one of the first things to appear in the Washington Post after Ms. Wilson was a declaration that Brewster-Jennings operations were now kaput)."

Here's the idea that Phil keeps trying to get through your thick skulls, but you just refuse to understand. The Agent Identities Protection Act's own author says that Valerie Plame DID NOT qualify for the Act's protections. This is the reason the DOJ was ready to wrap up its investigation. This is the reason Fitzgerald couldn't use the Act to prosecute the "leakers." Whether or not the new CIA director says she was covert is meaningless unless she fits into the parameters of that law. If she had, Fitzgerald would have had no problem prosecuting anyone and everyone who leaked her identity. Phil keeps trying to explain that although Fitzgerald never proved that the Act was violated, he has still used the unproven violation to strengthen his case. That's not even circumstantial evidence... that is unproven evidence and a prime example of prosecutorial misconduct.

"Uh, Phil, use your logic here. Couldn't there possibly be a completely DIFFERENT reason why Fitz didn't charge anyone, namely, that Fitz did not believe that he could prove beyond a reasonable doubt that that any of the leakers (Armitage, Rove, Libby) except Fleischer (who was granted immunity by Fitz) KNEW that Ms. Wilson was covert when they outed her but intentionally outed her nonetheless? Isn't such knowledge required by your beloved, "Agent Identities Protection Act"? Yes or no, Phil? Why do you suppose that Armitage cries like a baby that he didn't know??"

Still a huge problem with using the Act as evidence when he was unable to prove the Act was violated in the first place. In fact Fitzgerald violated his own rules that he himself set up at the beginning of the trial stating that neither the defense nor the prosecution was allowed to discuss the investigation into whether the Act had been violated except in instances that it pertained to the pejury and obstruction of justice charges. If his case of Libby lying and obstructing justice was so strong, why did his closing arguments consist mainly of the leaking of the unproven violation of the Agent Identities Protection Act by the administration.

"Phil, do you have any idea how many people testified against Libby? Why don't you sit down and go over these individuals' testimony and then get back to us. "Difference in recollection"? Hell, Libby would have us believe that the seven-plus people who testified against him are all messed up, and that reporters give him information, rather than the other way around. Fleischer-told-Gregory-who-told-Russert-who-told-Libby as the Libby-saving scenario? A bit preposterous, isn't it? But if it's so, did the defense ever call Gregory to testify that he told Russert?"

First problem... you like other Liberals are attempting to make it sound like there sould be no flaw in Libby's memory in the months and years between the Plame "leak" and his interrogations because his entire job revolved around "getting back" at Joe Wilson. This is pure idiocy. Libby was known for his extremely long hours that he worked and the Vice President's chief of staff has far more issues to deal with than just Valerie Plame. For conversations where he didn't write down notes of what he said, and with long work days, memories of the details of those conversations are going to fade quickly. Don't believe me? Okay, who was sitting next to you the exact moment you heard about Valerie Plame? Where did you get your information from? What did you say in your discussion about it at the time? Now once we get your answers, we are going to talk to people around you to see if their stories back up what you say. If you were an honest person, you would be willing to admit that it's not so easy to do. But I highly doubt that you would be willing to concede that point.
The second problem, is that although there were 6 or so witnesses against Libby, you fail to mention that their exact memories of the incident were proven to be flawed also, by the defense. Several of them had changed their testimonies between interrogations also, and admitted that they had needed to review personal notes on the subject to be able to give accurate testimony of the situation. Using the witness testimony against Libby in your argument is all well and good, but your argument fails when you bring in the entire picture instead of the piece that supports your argument.

"Yeah, and that's what is chilling about living in the red states, so far from the "reality-based community."

This is called an Ad Hominem fallacy. Instead of being able to counter his claim that "A red state America jury in the heartland would not have returned this verdict." You make an attack claim that Red-states are not based in reality. Because of this fallacy, your logic and credibility on the issue of "Red States" is reduced to zero.

Black Dog - Another Leftist Troll in TH
Black Dog, when Bubba lied like the dog he is, he was not asked for a "legal definition" of sex, but rather if he had had sex with Lewinski. And, if as you suggest, he was making that type of specious distinction for the court, and being honest as he was required to do, he would have flat out said Monica copped his Willie but he didn't consider that sex, period. No, the bum was lying through his teeth, as usual. He fully meant to decieve the court.

As for the Senate failing to convict this sleazy, lying son-of-a-bi***, so what? The Senate not trying this bum on the House impeachment bill is akin to a democrat Congress cheering on their favorite homosexual child molester, Jerry Stubbs. Quelle surprise.

With respect to my "seemingly Islamic version of morality," I would suggest that to any of you vile, thoroughy amoral, degenerate leftists, anyone who hasn't had odd sex with corpses, anal sex with homosexuals, muff-dived with a lesbian or engaged in weird animal sex is out of the mainstream as your crowd now defines it.

You socialist street urchins are all masters at projecting your own evil onto all and sundry.


I forgot to put one more bit in my piece
To your statement "It was Bush's CIA itself that referred Ms. Wilson's outing to the Justice Department for criminal prosecution, wasn't it, Phil?"

The idea that it is Bush's CIA is as disingenuous of a statement as you can get. While, yes, Bush is President, and the CIA is supposed to be an arm of the Executive Branch. The idea that the Bush Administration would send a known lefty partisan to investigate Bush's State of the Union address is absurd. If this was truly Bush's CIA, why would anyone in the organization attempt to undermine the President's ability to ensure National Security, by leaking every single measure that the administration has taken to fight this War on Terror. This applies to the leaks that question the legality of the measures the Administration as well as the leaks in which there is no question the measures are legal, but instead are designed to embarrass the Administration. It seems to me that this goes beyond whistleblowing right into the realm of actively working against a President simply for the political benefit of the President's detractors.

To norman
Thank you. I have been out on the baseball field, and my energy level right now is on the low side. So I am glad that you picked up the argument nd handled it so well.

Phil...
I know I am arguing with a brick wall as you have been doing, but if we Conservatives don't put out our point of view, then Liberals will think that they have the consensus on the subject, rather than just thinking that they are right no matter what. If no one stands up to them, they will be able to run roughshod over the majority of people who don't share their socialist values.

It would be similar to the situation in Iraq before the invasion, where one minority group forced everyone else to live as that minority group saw fit.

come on Byler
You've said repeatedly that Wilson lied. You have yet to give me the precise words that constitute a lie.

You're talking about implications––emanations of penumbras, and that sort of thing.

Do you seriously believe that you could get Wilson convicted of some kind of perjury?

If so, present the evidenced you pompous windbag.

Phylo out.




Okay, Phylo Se Fiser...
You are partially correct...

I've reread Joe Wilson's op-ed piece, and he didn't outwardly lie, but he did intentionally mislead.

In his op-ed he challenges the Bush administration on saying that Sadaam had attempted to buy yellowcake uranium. He refutes this statement by saying that all the Nigerian officials that he talked to said that no uranium had been sold to Iraq. He goes on to say that there is no evidence of any uranium exchange with Iraq. Then he talks about how the administration seemed to manipulate the intelligence in the run up to the war. He supports this statement by arguing that there was no evidence that Sadaam bought yellowcake uranium.

Joe Wilson's statement is true but misleading. What he didn't say in his op-ed piece is that there was evidence that Sadaam had attempted to create a business partnership with the Nigerians in 1999, which they took as a proposition to purchase uranium. The Nigerians didn't see this as viable due to sanctions on Iraq at the time and the resources needed to transport the uranium to Iraq.
Joe Wlison attempted to discredit the Administration's "16 words" with evidence that was never the conclusion of the Bush Administration.

The Bush administration was correct in asserting that Sadaam had attempted to buy Uranium from Niger. Joe Wilson attempted to mislead the public by equating the words "sought" with the word "buy."

So you are correct. Joe Wilson never outwardly lied in his op-ed, instead he did the same thing he accused the Bush Administration of doing. He twisted his evidence and left out important facts in order to mislead the public into accepting his conclusion.

Just for fair play, I will post Bush's "16 words" and URL for Joe Wilson's op-ed.

16 words
"The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa."

Joe Wilson's op-ed:
http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0706-02.htm

JailTheSocialistStreetUrchins
Bravo! Well said!

Thanks Goshawk
Goshawk, I am confident it hasn't escaped you that the REAL danger posed by these leftists resides less in what they actually believe, for we all know what that is, but rather in how they so cleverly manipulate Christian notions of decency and fairness when it suits their purposes.

Hence, we have democrats now "offended" by presidents lying to the American people when these very same democrats never make a peep when it's their guys doing the lying. The sum total of their morality is based in political expediencey, not in any core values they hold. They could give a shi* less what we think in flyover country, and I mean that quite literally.

Truth be told, almost every democrat in Washington thinks Christians, Catholics, fundamentalists, Mormons and anyone of religious faith is a royal pain in the derriere. They despise them, and the only time they address their concerns is at election time. As soon as they're elected, it's fuc* these rubes!

thank you norman
I do believe that that is the first time someone on this site has admitted that they were wrong. Notice Phil hasn't done that yet.

Yet, you're still missing something. You see, the reason Bush foisted the responsibility for the intel on the Brits is because Bush knew (yes knew) that the CIA thought the British intel wasn't credible.

To get a sense for what a whopper Bush told at the SOTU you have to read the sixteen words and then follow them up by saying "However, the CIA has looked into that evidence and has found it less than credible.

Of course, Bush isn't going to say that. He would sound like an idiot for even bringing it up. Yet, this was the truth as he knew it at the time.

I can't believe how many people on the right have been hornswaggled into believing that Wilson is the bad guy in all this. It blows my mind. And it frightens me. It frightens me to know that the right-wing noise machine is so effective at brainwashing so many people.

And they've got you all believing that you can't trust the MSM. Oh nooooo, don't listen to them, they have an agenda. Listen to us, on right wing radio. We're the Real truth tellers.

Unbelievable!

Phylo out.

Response to Phil (part 2)
"I have correctly stated the statutory definition of "covert" in the Agent [sic]Identiies [sic] Protection Act and have applied it to the known facts about Plame. All you do is to say: How do I know? No one, however, has ever asserted that Plame has [sic] had a foreign posting in the last five years,..." -- Phil Byler

First, Phil, before you make any reference to the "last five years" you may want to consider the amount of time that has elapsed since Ms. Wilson was outed.

Moving on. Let me get this straight, Phil. You argue that because no one asserts that Ms. Wilson had a foreign posting, ergo, she must not have had a foreign posting. IS THIS THE KIND OF LOGIC THAT GETS ONE THROUGH HARVARD LAW SCHOOL??? Damn!! Is the ultra-secretive CIA (which is trying to block publication of Ms. Wilson's upcoming book, by the way) obliged to provide you and the public with Ms. Wilson's employment history? Yes or no, Phil??? Cat got your tongue??? And if you must make inferences based upon what people have not done, doesn't it make more sense to conclude that because the Chimp-in-Chief has not declared that Ms. Wilson was not covert, that she indeed was covert, given how much political damage this whole affair has cost the White House?? WELL??

Phil, why is it that you are incapable of enlightening yourself through the acquisition of relevant information? All you have to do is google "'Wilson' 'covert' 'leak'". You may get a result like this:

"Plame was ‘covert’ agent at time of name leak" from http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18924679/ Read it and weep, Phil. Pay particular attention to the sentence, "Ms. Wilson was a covert CIA employee for who the CIA was taking affirmative measures to conceal her intelligence relationship to the United States." That's got to sting, doesn't it, Phil??? Also note the sentence, "No one was ever charged with the leak of Plame's name itself, which would have been a crime only if someone KNOWINGLY [emphasis added]gave our [sic] information about someone covered by a specific law protecting the identities of covert agents."

Let me make this simple for you, Phil.

1. You know all about this Intelligence Identities Protection Act (though you refer to it as "Agent Identities Protection Act")

2. So does Fitz, and so does the CIA.

3. But unlike you, the CIA knows what Ms. Wilson was doing the last several years of her employment with the CIA

4. The CIA sought a criminal investigation, and Ashcroft's Justice Department agreed that that was warranted.

5. So if no one was prosecuted for violating this Intelligence Identities Protection Act, it stands to reason that this was because Fitz did not believe he could prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the leakers knew she was covert when they outed her, not because Fitz "would have to prove that Valerie Plame was covert when she wasn't" (your words, Phil). Recall the words of your beloved Intelligence Identities Protection Act:

"Whoever, as a result of having authorized access to classified information, learns the identify of a covert agent and INTENTIONALLY DISCLOSES ANY INFORMATION IDENTIFYING SUCH COVERT AGENT to any individual not authorized to receive classified information, KNOWING that the information disclosed so identifies such covert agent and that the United States is taking affirmative measures to conceal such covert agent's intelligence relationship to the United States, shall be fined not more than $25,000 or imprisoned not more than five years, or both."

Pay particular attention to the words I have capitalized just for you, Phil.

"But the case against Libby was premised about the differences in recollection as to how [sic]what when in conversations between Libby and a few journalists." -- Phil Byler

Libby would have us believe, Phil, that several people all have the capacity to remember conversations with Libby about Mr. or Ms. Wilson shortly before Libby spoke to Russert, some of these conversations initiated by Mr. Libby himself (including drawing a poor guy out of an ongoing meeting just to discuss one of the Wilsons), but that Mr. Libby can't remember any of this, and wasn't focussed on Mr. and Ms. Wilson. Moreover, Libby wanted the jury to believe that Libby learned about Ms. Wilson from Russert rather than the other way around, Russert's denial notwithstanding. But how did Russert know, Phil, if not through Libby? He learn it from Dick Gregory? If so, why didn't the defense lawyers confirm this? Because they couldn't? Juries don't like implausible scenarios, Phil, and "reasonable doubt" can only go so far.

"Furthermore, it was not those differences that the jury was focusing on; it was why higherups in the Bush Administration weren't being tried -- because Fitzgerald's case was really about Plame being endangered by the "revelation" that she was the one who sent Joe Wilson to Niger, never mind that Fitzgerald successfully kept out of evidence proof as to Plame's actual status." -- Phil Byler

Back to your old "omnisicience tricks," right Phil? And how is it that you know what the jury was focussing on? Were you a member of the jury, Phil? Oh, I see, you base your inference on what, a single after-trial declaration made by one (maybe two) OF TWELVE jurors? More importantly, does the fact that a juror may have wondered why the "higherups" weren't being tried preclude there being sufficient time for the jury to determine whether Scooter lied or not? When the jury was acquitting Libby on one of the five counts against him, could you please use your magical omniscience powers to let us mere mortals know what the jury was focussing on?

"A red state jury would not convict because the evidence was not there." -- Phil Byler

You're likely right on a red-state jury acquitting Libby, Phil. Any group of people that buys all the lies the Bush Administration has told over the years is gullible enough to fall for Libby's "faulty memory" defense.

End the circus
Although Buckley may have gone too far in asserting certainty that Libby lied, he is correct that a 30 month sentence is grossly excessive even if he did lie as charged. The most desirable outcome would be for the justice system to correct the excess. But if a presidential pardon is the only way to avoid Libby going to prison until all appeals are exhausted, then one is warranted. If Libby is not sent to prison during the appeal process and the sentence stands, then a presidential pardon is justified at that time on the basis that the punishment did not fit the offense.

This was the focus of the Buckley column, but the comments rapidly deteriorated into partisan and presumptuous bickering over what the Wilsons, President Bush, President Clinton, and others did and said. As a non-partisan who thinks both major parties are far astray, this is my take:

Wilson's 7/6/03 NYT article was an intentional and misleading attempt to discredit President Bush's statement in the 2003 State of The Union address that Saddam had SOUGHT uranium in Africa. Wilson claimed that his Niger visit showed that Saddam had not BOUGHT yellow cake from Niger and therefore he concludes that "some of the intelligence related to Iraq's nuclear weapons program was twisted to exaggerate the Iraqi threat". His reasoning is revealed at the end of the article when he asserts that there are two ways his input could have been integrated.

" If my information was deemed inaccurate, I understand .." (but would like to know why).

" If, however, the information was ignored because it did not fit certain preconceptions about Iraq, then a legitimate argument can be made that we went to war under false pretenses".

This is very arrogant, simplistic, incomplete, and illegitimate. The logical interpretation of the Wilson input to the CIA was that it was one small piece and likely already known (ie that Saddam's Niger purchase efforts were unsuccessful). The point that President Bush was addressing was that Saddam posed a threat because he had SOUGHT nuclear material in the past (and had a nuclear weapon intention), and was very likely to proceed if he could.

So who lied? Bush did not. Wilson did not technically but was misleading.

Then the thing descended into partisan La-La-Land when media partisans (most particulary Chris Matthews) repeatedly misled by claiming that "Bush Lied" because Wilson proved that Saddam did not obtain yellow cake from Niger ( a totally untrue and irrelevant claim). It is understandable that the Bush administration would make an effort (ultimately unsuccessfully) to correct the record. Mary Matalin (a Cheney advisor) has recently made this known, and she specifically cited Matthews as the prime offender. She advised that it would be useless to confront Matthews (because of his lack of objectivity) and recommended talking to Russert. Libby may have been the one who tried to discuss it with Russert, but it is obvious it did not help. The issue spiraled out of control and descended into a circus.

Wilson's wife working for the CIA (with ambiguous classification) and also influencing his selection for the Niger trip complicated the circus. The CIA official or officials who authorized that trip should have been fired for incompetence. Do we know who made that stupid decision and whether they have been fired? It is tragic that a man's life has been destroyed as a result of such trivial and partisan political distortion. This does not excuse any untruth by Libby when he was bound by law to be truthful. He should be held accountable in a just way. This whole affair has not been just.

I am not a lawyer or a philosopher, so perhaps my view is incomplete. But one thing is interesting that has not been given much attention. Is Tim Russert the only Washington hack who did not know that Wilson's wife worked for the CIA and influenced his trip? His naivety is not credible.

Free Libby!

Throw libby under the bus with Bush
He was Marc Rich's lawyer, what a scum, bribed the Clinton's for a pardon.

No free lunches for sleazoid lawyers who make millions for international scumbags.

Libby is scum, the only thing lower than Marc Rich is Mark Rich's lawyer.
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