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Sunday, September 17, 2006
William F. Buckley :: Townhall.com Columnist
Stumped by morality?
by William F. Buckley
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The divisions on the question of how to deal with terrorist suspects reminds us that there is confused reasoning in town. This is not unexpected, but this time around it gives especially interesting paradoxes.

Sen. John McCain -- miraculously still alive, given what he was made to suffer in Vietnam -- voted against authorizing "alternative interrogation practices," rejecting the toughness President Bush and his advisers deem necessary to cope with their problem. Most unexpected was the intercession of Colin Powell. As a former secretary of state and close adviser to presidents, he'd have been thought in favor of executive authority in matters touching on war.

Rep. Duncan Hunter, R-Calif., head of the House Armed Services Committee, said simply that he would do whatever the president asked. Gen. Powell introduced an objection of arresting nature. He said that a departure from the Geneva Convention rules would encourage the world to "doubt the moral basis of our fight against terrorism."

It's worth it to pause for a minute with some basic questions, illuminated by a hypothetical case.

Habib Sulaiman, age 22, is picked up by security agents in London. He has been frequenting the airport, spending unaccountable time at international departures gates of British Airways. A search of his apartment brings out files focusing on airport transport. Telephone records disclose calls to a number that French authorities have listed as suspect. Sulaiman declines to answer any questions. One month later, he finds himself in Guantanamo. What is to be done with him?

Routine questioning, of the kind he has been subjected to ever since he was picked up, has accomplished nothing.

Hypothetically, he could be shot and buried. But of course we do not do that kind of thing.

We could just keep him in his Guantanamo cell. Just keep him there, let the months go by, turning -- maybe -- into years. But that, too, is something we don't go in for, certainly not in theory.

So after a while the commandant says, "Let's try something a little more persuasive than solitary confinement."

Like what? Like alternative interrogation practices.

A question before the Senate was whether to continue to abide by what is called Common Article 3. The Geneva Convention that begot Article 3 sought to prohibit inhumane treatment of combatants seized in wartime. In the language of the convention, the design was to prohibit "outrages upon personal dignity."

Legal questions arose. Gen. Michael Hayden of the CIA has said that clarifications have to be made, since outrages to human dignity can be adduced by imaginative, and even not really imaginative, detainees -- certainly Mr. Sulaiman could after awhile persuasively maintain that life in a cell in Guantanamo is an outrage against personal dignity.

Another matter, on which Mr. Bush is absolutely decisive, has to do with the auspices of Common Article 3. The Geneva Convention that came up with it was talking about treatment of organized combatants, and of course terrorists are militantly non-military. The point here is that Congress has the authority to modify its endorsement of the Geneva protocol by acting on the vagueness not only of the prohibition, but also of the category -- "combatants seized in wartime" -- being dealt with.

It was a maudlin mistake of Gen. Powell to take these questions and run them together under the rubric of morality. The eternal question, in international engagements but also in national and even local engagements, is how to balance competing claims: the claim to personal sovereignty and the claim to security for the community. Before airplanes existed, one didn't need expedited detentions based on suspicious activity.

As Congress closes in on the request of the commander in chief, elected legislators will need to review these questions. They should not be asked to define what exactly they condone, in the way of alternative interrogation practices. But they should not be dumbfounded into inactivity by general appeals to the Ten Commandments.

COPYRIGHT 2006 UNIVERSAL PRESS SYNDICATE

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About The Author

William F. Buckley, Jr. is editor-at-large of National Review, the prolific author of Miles Gone By: A Literary Autobiography.

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PCing Torture?
Buckley used some wierd terminology: "expedited detention" and "alternative interrogation techniques". Is that what waterboarding is?

I think International Law is a "living document" that needs to change with the times. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one, and all that.

Splitting Hairs Ruins a Scope Sight.
Mr. Buckley, as well as many others, is wrong on the subject. Like in WWII, first you win, then you discuss the morality of how you won.

A society cannot survive on aspirations; it can survive on realities.

Stumped by Morality?
The question continues to be whether the victims of terrorism have any civil rights at all (to life, limb and property). Or are these the kind of rights which only the terrorist themselves are entitled to? After all, under liberal thinking, they are only "activists" who are defending "just causes", and for this reason they are entilted to special loving treatment. What about my right to come and go, without being blown up to pieces, like in the London subway and the Madrid railroad station? If taking away their "right" to do us harm will keep us alive and well, then I say: let's do it.

180 Degrees Off
A professional military operates under a strict command structure and the basis of that command structure is the unwavering belief in the righteousness of the military cause. That is the glue that holds a large group together.

Having our military reflect American society's values of noble and moral behavior is exactly what differentiates a coordinated professional unit from an individual-based tribe of half-assed soldiers who do what they want.

The 180 degree irony is how the conservative movement got its initial support and momentum from people who wished for a more moral society and were promised such. Now when that promise goes unfulfilled and their idea of winning a war is yet unproven, the solution is to redefine what Americans think is "moral."

That, my friends, is the slipperiest slope of all.


Moral Confusion
It's excruciatingly ironic that the Left has such profound sensitivity to morality that even those who murder scores (if not millions) of innocent people deserve an ever-evolving standard of humane treatment.

First of all, it would be perfectly just to condemn terrorists to a life time of slow torture. Such a policy might inhibit would-be terrorists from joining the terrorist networks and thus save lives. Plus, this would be a classic example of the punishment fitting the crime.

Second of all, the greater good is to save as many lives of innocent people as possible and, if harsher interrogation techniques accomplish that goal, what is the argument for terrorist rights?

Perhaps the silliest notion is that of John McCain, who worries that if we use merely harsh interrogation techniques, our soldiers will be subject to torture by terrorists.

Please. The terrorists video-tape slicing the heads off of screaming captors. We could put terrorists on the beach at Malibu with the requisite 72 virgins and our actions would not affect the treatment of captured infidels: terrorists will torture captors no matter what the West does.

Hopeful Presidential nominees?
Isn't it obvious that the greatest clamor from "Republicans" eplaining why terrorists who should be shot upon capture for attacking civilians are entitled to protection of the Geneva accords comes
from those who are "in waiting"?

Chief among those is the Manchurian Candidate from
AZ, followed closely by Gen Powell hoping for another invitation and The Senator who is probably the least connected with his own constituency.

A different set of rules needed...
We are fighting a different type of war with a different type of enemy that necessitates a different type of morality with a different set of rules. We cannot expect the moral standards of today to apply to the immorality of 7th century behavior. Perhaps it’s time to adapt our human rights policies to the current threat, for the interim, in order to preserve both those rights and us.

Maybe this is too obvious
But there are of course non-damaging but highly effective interrogation techniques that work bettr than physical interrogation, namely the use of psychotropic drugs. Scopolamine was used quite effectively in this mode going back to World War Two, and others exist today that are both more effective in reducing the suspect's capacity to dissemble and less likely to cause permanent side-effects. Coupled with hypnosis, the result should be the acquisition of the data in question without any permanent damage.
And the best part is, after the effects wear off, you can play the tape recording of the subject spilling everything he knows back to him, just to see the look on his face.
(And please- no cracks about MK-ULTRA, or any other "X-Files" bull patties. I'm referring to real science here, not pseudomystical conspiratologist moonbeaming. Thank you.)

High horses
Those who think that the enemies of our great country would ever follow the rules of the Geneva Convention are kidding and haven’t got a clue. By now they should know what will happen to our soldiers if they are captured. Our enemy’s of today will stop at nothing until we are all converted or dead. What is the use of worrying about the future if we are going to all be dead?
It’s really sweet of these outright fools to take the so called high ground as heads are rolling. These idiots are trying to make all of us idiots and it makes me sick watch and listen to these two bit politicians who call themselves republicans.
The War Power act gives the President the power to protect us so let him do the job.
Liberal do goodies should be tried as enemy combatants because they are causing unusual punishment to the rest of us who know what it takes to win a war.

Righteousness of the military cause.
Informed voter writes:

A professional military operates under a strict command structure and the basis of that command structure is the unwavering belief in the righteousness of the military cause.

At least you give the terrorists that much.

Moral Confusion
Rugged Individualist comments mirror my thoughts; so please read his/her post again.

Stumped by Reality
McCain, et al seem to be stumped by reality, rather than morality.

The concept of the "moral high ground" is academic when engaging an enemy that beheads, mutilates, and desecrates the bodies of its enemies, and is represented by no state that can be signatory to an internetional agreement.

McCain is bringing his usual aMcCain, et al seem to be stumped by reality, rather than morality.

The concept of the "moral high ground" is academic when engaging an enemy that beheads, mutilates, and desecrates the bodies of its enemies, and is not represented by any state that can be signatory to an international agreement.

McCain is bringing his usual analytical skills to this issue, and the result will be unintended consequences, just as occurred with his most recent masterpiece, the McCain-Feingold campaign finance reform bill.

In this case, the consequences will not be elections influenced by the 527's of left wing international financiers. The result of the McCain et al Terrorist Interrogation bill will be the the death of US civilians and soldiers due to a lack of timely intelligence.

Brilliant, John, just brilliant!

alytical skills to this issue, and the result will be unintended consequences, just as occured with his most recent masterpiece, the McCain-Feingold campaign finance reform bill.

In this case, the consequences will not be electons controlled by the 527's of left wing international financeers. The result of the McCain et al Terrorist Interrogation bill will result in the death of US civilians and soldiers due to a lack of timely intelligence.

Brilliant, John, just brilliant!


another viewpoint
Should I let y'all unleash some wrath upon me? Here goes.
Bush is calling this a war.. on terror.. but a war nonetheless. If we catch a combatant in that war in say Iraq or Afghanistan are they or are they not combatants in this war? No uniform? Like Viet Cong? Is that the only determinant factor? Beheaded our boys? So did the Japs and so did the Germans. YOu all know of Malmedy? Bataan? The enemy back then were captured and held under the Geneva convention despite their criminal treatment of our soldiers. Did the Axis powers kill innocents? Ask the Jews, Poles, Russians, Chinese, Philipinos? Did we suspend the convention rules for detaining those combatants? No, we did not.
I think the President has gotten himself tangled up in his own rhetoric over this, somewhat. We are in a war but these guys are not the combatants but terrorists. In this case I believe this is a distinction without a difference.
Bush is saying that the terrorists are a few divisions strong worldwide,as I recall my reading. That they are widely scattered and semi-independent. Yet he names nations as the axis of evil that support these divisions. What we then have, in reality are mercenaries; paid soldiers, fighting in proxy for the axis of evil. That hasn't been said before, I don't believe.
Now don't come at me with the tirade about being soft. Frankly the answer to our difficulties lies in total unrestricted warfare, IMHO. So I am not sqeamish about inflictin boo boos on the bad guys or their mothers for that matter. Not in this war, at least.
But let's divide the urgency for intel gleaned from these prisoners from the tactics needed to sqeeze such intel out of them. For the life of me I cannot abide using tactics of interrogation that do not essentially differentiate us from them. There are ways I am sure I do not know about but that would surely get them to talk that stop short of torture. I assume that's what the fuss is about. You don't see it used much, the word torture. Why the timidity about it? That is what is being debated.
It would not be such a crucial issue if Bush were to admit to his own rhetoric and that of his neocon advisors that this is really a total war against different cultures, not nations. Then we could do some serious warmaking and forget the small potatoes.
The consequence for sleeper cells would be that they'd be deprived of their resources and wilt on the vine. First, we must come to a better and unified definition of what this is really all about.
Fire back.

A word from the master
“Stumped by morality?” asks the father of “modern” conservatism, who immediately indicates – redundantly for those of us who have followed his career - that he certainly is, followed immediately by two posters who demonstrate, perhaps for comic relief, that they don’t even understand which side of the question Buckley’s on.
But it’s clear which side he endorses. As a representative of the party that routinely warns about the perils to be found on morality’s “slippery slopes,” he invites us out onto the slipperiest one of all; and, as usual, does so with the barely concealed implication that those of us who hang back are guilty of some kind of moral dilettantism.
Thus, we dare not teach children about sex, because they will inevitably begin skipping Little League in favor of after-school orgies. We cannot harvest stem cells from soon-to-be-discarded human embryos, because this will lead inexorably to families murdering grandma for her gold fillings.
However, we can without the least concern empower our government – or its agents – to torture people whom we consider bad. What happens down the road, when the government decides that Mr. Buckley may have fudged a little on his income tax and decides to loosen his tongue with a few “alternative interrogation practices”? On that question Mr. Buckley is uncharacteristically silent.
I’ve stated it in other posts and I’ll repeat it here. Those who advocate the use of torture are either stupid (because they think it’ll never happen to them) or cowardly (because they’re unwilling to risk anything on principle) or both. “Oh, Mr. President,” they quaver, “Don’t let those mean old terrorists hurt us! Do anything you must, but don’t let them hurt us!”
Thus, out of cowardice and stupidity, are tyrants born.

We see "torture" differently...
that our enemies do. For them, it is not "torture" when they cut the heads off civilian workers or disembowel our soldiers. They consider it doing the "work of Allah". But for some HERE, "torture" is the Red Hot Chili Peppers; they aren't "comfortable"; someone handled the Quran without gloves; they might have to share a bathroom. What kind of nonsense is THIS?

I am guessing that the majority of the American people are better able to understand what is necessary than some of our politicians. I find it odd that McCain has so little memory of what REAL torture is.

Because of his past, mccain should
'recuse' himself from the discussion. He was tortured by experts.

Sometimes, I am MORE afraid to our 'leaders' than I am of the taliban. The reason is those who would sell us into dhimmitude for the sake of "peace at any price."

Sorry that I am so old-fashioned that I believe we should fight to WIN. That we should do EVERYTHING in our power to protect our citizens from evil and terror. That we should STOP any attack BEFORE it occurs, not litigate after. That we should PROTECT our soldiers from our own overzealous protections of the enemy (our soldiers have RIGHTS too. They DON'T give up their rights when they join the military.) That anything is justified when an UNKNOWN and UNKNOWABLE enemy is threatening to destroy your way of life and kill everyone possible, by any means possible. We should use every means possible to destroy them FIRST.

One or two facts -
eon:
Sorry to disappoint you, but pharmacological aids to interrogation are over-rated in the public mind. There are no "truth serums" and, if there were, sodium thiopental would not be one of them. Drugs like these - including alcohol - function mainly by loosening inhibitions, which can produce as much unreliable information as not. The bottom line: interrogators would be just as well served by taking prisoners out for a night on the town.
Mike:
You make some excellent points and were headed, I thought, toward one more, but didn't get there. During WWII the Nazis - who had no compunction about killing Jews! - nevertheless treated Jewish soldiers humanely, presumably under the priniciple of reciprocity that underlies most "rules of war."
You're right, I haven't seen the claim made before that the jihadists are mercenaries. I assume your point would be that mercenaries are excluded from protection under the Geneva. Conventions.
However, although jihadists may be equipped and supported by various governments, I'm not sure many of them are actually paid. In fact, I suspect most of them are not paid.
One more point, directed at those who argue that jihadists are ineligible for protection, because they do not wear uniforms and are not organized along conventional military lines: such combatants are, in fact, protected by the Geneva Conventions, specifically by Article 75, as well as others.
Last point: I've heard it argued, notably by Rush Limbaugh, that techniques like "water boarding" which "merely scare" prisoners, are not prohibited. This is just another example of the Bush technique of renaming something and pretending it's different. Water-boarding is, in fact, mock drowning. Using, as it does, the single strongest physiological drive - the urge to breath - repeated near drowning,like the related technique of garotting favored by the Spanish Inquisition, is universally condemned as a war crime. (Not that this would really bother Rush.)

Tortured by the Torture Debate
So McCain and Powell are wrong? Gee, what else is new? They are both RINO's, although I don't think Powell was ever a Republican to begin with.

The whole debate is unnecessary. Islamofascists don't have a problem with torturing people, killing civilians, blowing up school buses. They execute prisoners by cutting off their heads.

We, on the other hand, seem to think that our military and CIA are supposed to treat the enemy like recalcitrant school kids.

McCain, regardless of his Vietnam experience is wrong. He was wrong about the Swifties and he's wrong about torture. The only folks who like McCain are the socialists.


ensuring our safety is not immoral.
I think it is an affront to the human dignity of the American people, not to mention a threat to their very survival, to engage in pompous putrid pabulum on what constitutes an "outrage upon the personal dignity" of a terrorist detainee. After all, his goal in life is to set off a nuclear device in the U.S. And we have folks out there concerned with his "personal dignity". For those so inclined, the "personal dignity" of a terrorist could be maintained if such persons, obsessed with this question, would offer up their own necks to the terrorist's sword, blade or box-cutter. But I think I'll pass. Whatever miniscule respect I might have thoughtlessly extended to Senator McCain and General Powell in the past has been blown away in the wake of their insipid, inane, and altogether quite insane, "insights" into strict adherence to common article 3 of the Geneva conventions. Indeed, during Vietnam war, North Vietnam, though a signatory to the Geneva Convention, nonetheless employed torture against captured American forces. We do not use torture, and our enemy, whether a signatory to the Convention or not, will do what he pleases. The Convention was adopted in an age when standing armies representing nations constituted warfare. We need to amend some provisions of the Convention to reflect the new reality of warfare. Terrorists don't use standing armies. In their efforts to obtain information on planned terror attacks both here and abroad, our interrogators must have considerable latitude and not fear prosecution from international tribunals. A terror detainee's perception of what constitutes personal dignity is not a matter over which I am much concerned. Water-boarding is quite appropriate, along many other measures.

my 2 cents
The very fact that we have a debate over the legality/morality of torture is a good thing. It is no longer a question with allah's lads, if indeed it ever was.

Conversion at gunpoint anyone? Preachers going on TV to incite children to martydom? Killing 3,000 innocent people to please allah? Genocide in the Sudan? 7/7 in London last summer?

If a radical Christian sect had committed any ONE of these acts they would have been rightly condemned around the world early and often. They WERE committed by Islamic groups and what was the reaction?

Does that mean that Christianity is superior to Islam? Yes.


Change subject - the Pope's remarks about Islam and the latest ITT - Islamic Temper Tantrum - Is anyone else getting as tired of THE DAILY RIOTS as I am? Remember the story of the boy who cried wolf?

gotta walk the dog.

afn&tt

Victory
The worst thing that can happen to a nation is to lose a major war: we are in a major war. Victory in this war is essential to the survival of not only our nation but Western Civilization. Wars are fought between peoples and in this case cultures. We must do EVERYTHING necessary to first win the war: torture prisoners, use of nuclear weapons, attack on civilians are all elements of warfare that were use in WWII. We won WWII. Let's get busy and win this one: use every tool in our toolbox to get through this fight and then the academics can again be assured of the freedom to object to how we again secured their freedom to object to the way we achieved their freedom. We must get past the idea of giving democracy to Muslim nations: it will not work. Democracy (constitutional republics) and capitalism are constructs of Western Civilization. We cannot give (difficult to give anyone anything) them to societies that do not educate their citizens (women) and do not have Western (Judaeo-Christian) views of morality and ethics.

Our soldiers
Something is terribly out of whack when our own soldiers who are detained for whatever reason are treated worse than terrorist detainees. I am not in favor of having "oprahized" people define the terms of much of anything, let alone defining what is torture! (No pedicures? How inhumane!)

Stumped by Morality
Morality is not "situational." It is not defined for us by whomever we engage as an enemy. For the most part, we trust in those who demonstrate linkage to what we consider moral. It is why we favor leaders that we believe are guided by what we think are moral principles. Those who are so guided need not consult with "how to" manuals or legalized directives. In the end, the matter of trust is escalated to a level of faith. It is why we cannot leave decisions about treatment of human dignity, including the bounds of torture, to men who would contemplate their morality in terms of "what the meaning of 'is' is." We do not need a written definition of how to respect human dignity. We need to select leaders in whom we can entrust the faith that they know the difference.

MJB



Buckley's Article
Mr. Buckley begins by exhalting Senator McCain for his suffering as a prisoner of war, as if this qualifies him to make superior judgements on matters regarding prisoners. Perhaps we should allow the relatives of those hostages beheaded by the animalistic terrorists to offer their input. I would take their recommendations over Senator McCain's any day.

Mr. Buckley ends by apparently conceding that congressmen should not have to be specific about their objections to any bill.

Sadly, the onset of senility seems to have affected Mr. Buckley's formerly impeccable judgement.

Les Arbo
Daphne, AL

Powell & McCain--saddened by them
Powell and McCain have turned a huge disappointment for me.

McCain is still suffering some form of PTSD from imprisonment in N. Vietnam (I am a Vietnam vet) and wants to write law as if the enemy might obey them this time around (remember N Vietnam was a Geneva Conv signatory yet tortured).

And Powell, the Armitage situation, and his moralistic input on the interrogation question, have dimmed my once exalted view of him as a future President. No more...

Stumped by Morality
The angst that our "leaders" are experiencing over whether or not terrorists deserve to be afforded protections after their actions clearly put them outside any consideration for civilized treatment never fails to amaze me. The answers are not to difficult although somewhat unpleasent in execution.

The the commandment states simply, "Thou shalt not kill." However, the exclusions to that commandment allows killing in self defense and to preserve innocent life. Terrorists are by definition people who prey on innocents and therefore have rendered themselves outside the civilized community -- Outlaws for whom the only treatment they can expect is extermination when they are fought or captured. Civilized societies can no more release them back into civilized society than they could release a rabid animal, once captured, to the streets of their cities. A rabid animal is more innocent than a terrorist because the animal is handicapped by it's inability to reason exascerbated by a disease that drives it mad. There is no such excuse for the terrorist. If sane, he has placed himself beyond any recourse to mercy and if insane, must be destroyed to protect the innocent.

How the terrorist is treated between capture and death is irrelevant and so the whole question of what must be done to wring him dry of useful information to save innocent life is also irrelivent. No sane man would see such work as anything but revolting but throughout history legitimate executions have been performed for the sake of the protection of the innocents in civilized socety.

If we possessed a machine such as one in a "Star Trek" episode that would render the criminal benign and therefore safe for reentry to society we would need no prisons, death penalties, or even a justice system, but we have no such machine and must deal with the uncivilized using the best techniques available. The first principle is the protection of society from those who would commit henious crimes endangering innocent life.

McCaine and Powell, are both RINOs who seem to get respect based on their previous military servce no matter how absurd their current political positions. As Secretary of State, Powell frequently opposed the policies of his president by going to the liberal press and publically disagreeing. Those of you whom are old enough may remember that General Douglass MacArthur was fired for doing this by Harry Truman. Although, Truman's policies were wrong the General was wrong to publically disagree with the president and was rightly fired. If MacArthur and Powell resigned in protest, they would have been free to publically offer criticism as a civilian. The result of Truman's policy has been to tie up some 37,000 American troops for 50-years guarding the DMZ. MacArthur's advice, if followed, would have probably resulted in a unified Korea and Vietnam.

McCaine, has become the darling of the liberal mainstream media. That is enough, in my mind, to disqualify him from consideration for my vote. His one claim to fame has been that he was shot down on a mission and captured, imprisoned, and tortured for several years. Several former Navy fighter pilots who trained and flew with him have told me that he was a mediocre pilot, at best, and dangerous to his fellow pilots in combat because of his medocre piloting skills. Most say that he got through pilot training and carrier certification only because he was the son and grandson of Navy Admirals. Even if he was the best pilot ever turned out by our military it does not guarantee that he is qualified to be a legislator. Political correctness forbids any criticism of McCaine, Powell, Murtha, John Glenn, and Kerry. Few remember that "heros" McCaine and Glenn both succumbed to political dishonesty and greed as two of those caught up in the Keating Five scandal. Unfortunately, they were both given a pass.

It's time to stop the endless moralizing over our treatment of the barbaric murderers of innocents and fight them with the only tools they understand, absolute and unlimited war with no alternative for them but to surrender or die.


CAF
Right on. You hit the nail on the head.

Stumped by Americans in denial
If you hear dissent once in a while you come to think it's only natural for someone to disagree. You can't please everyone. When you hear it 24/7 it then turns into propaganda. This is what the media and the Democrats have been doing to turn Americans against the war in Iraq. If your against the war in Iraq then your against any interrogation methods used by our CIA. It's not a just war, which the Democrats and the media promotes so any interrogation methods are unjust also. It then becomes cruel and inhumane treatment of enemy combatants just to have them confined at Gitmo. Forget the fact that they were captured on the battlefields of Afghanistan and Iraq, the war in Iraq was wrong so having enemy combatants from Iraq is wrong also. Shut down Gitmo the critics shout because their being tortured. Where we put them, and when we put them there, will the critics approve. No, the critics will not be happy until the enemy combatants are either released or brought to trial in some civilian court where some liberal lawyer can get them off with a jury who the Democrats and media have turned against the war in Iraq. When you complain to a government about the inhumane treatment American soldiers are getting as prisoners of war under the Geneva Convention there is a government. Terrorist don't have a government in which you can bring complaints to. They just behead our soldiers, burn, and drag their bodies through the streets. How then can the Geneva Convention appy to terrorist when we capture and interrogate them. It seems we're fighting our own government and party members in how we should get information out of the very terrorist who wants to kill Americans. Does that make any sense to complain to a government which is ours presenting enemy combantants on how to interrogate them. What is it about this war on terrorism the Democrats and the media doesn't understand.

Too bad all this is public...
The fact that this debate is conducted in public guarantees that there will be a maximum of moral posturing on all sides. What horrified me about Bush's acknowledgment of CIA secret prisons was that he said anything about them at all.

There is no doubt that at least a part of the moral tradition of the West includes severe reservations or opposition to torture. It is incorrect to attribute such reservations solely to the moralizing of liberals.

It is also the case that war comes down to a question of "us" or "them." I want "us" to prevail and have some confidence, at least, that useful intel is being extracted from captured enemy combatants. The question of whether moral principles can be maintained in the conduct of war is, again, nothing new.

The practical resolution of the dilemma is for government to cloak torture of enemy combatants in strictest secrecy. Such secrecy is increasingly hard to maintain today, but it is worth the effort if our government learns more about how our enemy organizes his operations and is therefore enable to take appropriate action.

What will not help is what Bush is now doing--trying to engage in wordplay and looking for legal loopholes. This will satisfy neither critics of torture nor those who recognize its occasional necessity.

Les Arbo
"Mr. Buckley begins by exhalting Senator McCain for his suffering as a prisoner of war, as if this qualifies him to make superior judgements on matters regarding prisoners."

He "exhalts" Senator McCain, to later argues against Senator McCain's position. He used McCain and Powell to illustrate the "confused reasoning" on the issue.

He criticises Powell specifically for introducing the "moral" question to a practical matter of what to do with detainees who dont fit easily into a military category.

"Mr. Buckley ends by apparently conceding that congressmen should not have to be specific about their objections to any bill."

I dont know where you get the "any" bit here. He is referring specifically to ONE bill, and makes the suggestion that Senators should not hide behind pseudo-morality in determining how they will vote on it.

"Sadly, the onset of senility seems to have affected Mr. Buckley's formerly impeccable judgement."

I dont know. Am I the only one out here who gets irritated by such comments? I hope not.

David Mac
... As for not liking you... see my follow-up post to you under Mr Buckley's previous article. I'm coming round to your way of thinking after the last week of Muslem "outrage" at the Pope's remarks. Give me time. I'm working on it!


There are 2 questions
Seems to me that there are two questions here:

1. Is torture/alternative methods strategically beneficial to our cause? If other countries know the types of methods that we use, then does that cause them to hate us more, thereby producing more terrorists?

2. Is it tactically beneficial to our cause? Can we get more reliable information more quickly from these methods than we could otherwise?

The answer to the first one, I believe is an unequivocal "no!". Not only are we enraging our enemies who are more likely to do worse things to our prisoners, but we are also enraging our "allies" in Europe. We need their help and support and so we should not be trying to alienate them. Using these techniques is not making us look "strong", but rather cowardly. Us being strong would be to take the higher ground and treat the prisoners as what they are: human, derranged and hateful, but nonetheless human.

The answer to the second question is more complicated. I don't know enough about it, but there is enough evidence that using "alternative methods" is *less* effective than standard interrogation techniques. Part about successful interrogation is building a relationship with the captive. There must be a level of trust: "if I cooperate, I will be rewarded..." In the ticking time-bomb scenario, how can we be sure that any information gained under duress is reliable?

Treaties, conventions, armies
Way before the current contraversy I have been pondering over what consitutes an army and a uniform. The Geneva conventions was written by and large from a European perspective and a uniform has various colors like Kaki or brown and brass, silver and gold buttons or decorations. The uniform of a bank robber is a ski mask which changed from a hankerchief over the mouth. The terrorists have taken over the bank rober look with the ski mask and for the most part do not resemble a standing army until Hezbollah came along. They still have the ski masks but they march in step, and they train and deploy themselves like an army in bunkers and lines of defense. But of course they have for years practiced terrorism. So the Muslim extremists view themselves as an army and have even called themselves one, Muja Hadeem. The partisans were an effective military force but did not wear uniforms and were shot rather than captured unless the Germans wanted to interrogate them. We have used the argument that the terrorists are not an army and yet we have not shot them because they were not wearing uniforms which would be the logical thing to do if we backed up the theory that they were subject to such treatment. So to escape the dillema, the term enemy combantant was coined and we treat them as a special category which Bush determined did not fall under the Geneva Convention. If that is true then why is he worried about rewriting the Geneva convention or reinterpreting it? The problem is that he has been criticized for inventing the category of enemy combatant then making up the rules for how you can treat them so he is giving in to the crticism by even considering the issue which came to a head in his speech where he admitted what everyone already knew that there were secret prisons. The big problem really is that this war does not resemble the wars of the past and no one knows what the rules are for such a war if there are any rules. Some people have suggested in this and other forums that we just turn the Middle East or certain countries there into glass. That is not so easily done as starting a nuclear war has many downsides such as clouds of nuclear dust circling the earth and with enough nuclear weapons exploded the creation of a Nuclear Winter which eventually ends life on earth and is the main reasoon the Soviets never started a preemptive strike against us because their scientists understood the consequences. This new enemy does not understand or even fear the consequences because they don't fear death or the destruction of all life on earth so they would not hesitate to explode enough nuclear weapons to doom the earth if they had them. Fortunately at present they do not have them, but Pakistan does have more than any other Islamic nation and if they were taken over by Extremists a real crisis would emerge. So what needs to be done is the status of the enemy must be agreed upon by parties on our side or at least within our own country and the methods of treating them when captured must be agreed upon. The president cannot just make up rules as he goes along as he is a president not a king or a Dictator and even though he must make important decisions in crisis situations the guidlines should be agreed upon by the Legislative and Judiciary branches of government. And there is a danger in trying to change treaties after the fact. If you do that the next time you want to sign a treaty the other signatures would think twice before making a treaty with you.

Vicarious Enjoyment of Torture
ajhil wrote:

"I’ve stated it in other posts and I’ll repeat it here. Those who advocate the use of torture are either stupid (because they think it’ll never happen to them) or cowardly (because they’re unwilling to risk anything on principle) or both. 'Oh, Mr. President,” they quaver, “Don’t let those mean old terrorists hurt us! Do anything you must, but don’t let them hurt us!' Thus, out of cowardice and stupidity, are tyrants born."

What he doesn't mention in his excellent analysis of Buckley's predictable temporizing over the torture of suspected terrorists is the fact that many Americans have unabashedly given themselves over to the vicarious, but nonetheless real, sado-masochistic enjoyment of torturing other human beings.

It is, as a matter of fact, their own psychopathology that enables advocates of torturing suspected terrorists to either repress the fact that captives with no terrorist connections or information whatsoever (the majority of detainees, according to some military spokespersons) have been tortured during their sojourns as guests of the US government, or to simply dismiss from their minds the implications of such state-sponsored terrorism as a minor cost of doing business with the Muslim hordes.

A stark choice faces all of us in dealing with the unquestionably fanatical and homocidal proclivities of terrorists: we can settle into (if we're not already there) a similarly fanatical and homocidal mind-set as the terrorists "enjoy," or we can refuse to give ourselves over to the specious pleasures afforded by the cult of death and destruction which is so widely advertised in the US as the only alternative to appeasement, determining instead to combat the terrorist's predations in a manner befitting Christians who do not view the Ten Commandments as useful only for decorating courthouses.



Bush Is A Leftist Republican
While much preferrable than Gore or Kerry, (are there ANY Democrats with the talent of Clinton?) Bush is a bust. It's like fighting a battle with one hand tied behind your back. If we are going to do that, why not tie the LEFT hand behind the back. Why is it always the right hand?

A REAL president would have sent a low-level secretary to the Supreme Court before they agreed to hear Hamdan vs Rumsfeld to inform them they had no jurisdiction to even hear the case. Then a REAL president would have held the military tribunal, and if Hamdan was convicted, execute him in public.

There is a constitutional system of checks and balances in this country that is rarely used to good effect. The federal courts - including the Supreme Court - rely on the PRESIDENT to enforce their rulings. The president is under NO OBLIGATION to enforce any federal court ruling. If you remember, Bill Clinton refused to enforce the Beck decision for his entire eight year term.

The only check against presidential malfeasance in this area is at the ballot box, or impeachment. Right now in Washington, there are only two political animals: The Wussie and The Castrati.

How Many Innocents Have Been Tortured?
Please read the following news report as a footnote to my previous post regarding the fact that the victims of US-government torture, past, present, and future, are SUSPECTED terrorists, 70-90% of whose arrests were characterized by US officials as "mistakes."

Here are excerpts from that news report:
"U.S. war prisons legal vacuum for 14,000
BAGHDAD, Iraq -- In the few short years since the first shackled Afghan shuffled off to Guantanamo, the U.S. military has created a global network of overseas prisons, its islands of high security keeping 14,000 detainees beyond the reach of established law.

"Disclosures of torture and long-term arbitrary detentions have won rebuke from leading voices including the U.N. secretary-general and the U.S. Supreme Court. But the bitterest words come from inside the system, the size of several major U.S. penitentiaries.

" 'It was hard to believe I'd get out,' Baghdad shopkeeper Amjad Qassim al-Aliyawi told The Associated Press after his release - without charge - last month. "I lived with the Americans for one year and eight months as if I was living in [perdition].'

"Captured on battlefields, pulled from beds at midnight, grabbed off streets as suspected insurgents, tens of thousands now have passed through U.S. detention, the vast majority in Iraq.

"Many say they were caught up in U.S. military sweeps, often interrogated around the clock, then released months or years later without apology, compensation or any word on why they were taken. Seventy to 90 percent of the Iraq detentions in 2003 were 'mistakes,' U.S. officers once told the international Red Cross."
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/1107AP_In_American_Hands.html

I don't know how many of these innocent detainees were subjected to torture, but if it was only one, it was one too many.

But whether detainees are innocent or guilty of terrorist acts or their plotting, the act of torturing them strikes a grievous blow to any heart which harbors conscious love of God, no matter how darkened the minds and hearts of those detainees may be.

And the highly questionable efficacy of such brutality in eliciting truthful information from prisoners is wholly secondary to the indisputable efficacy of torture in brutalizing its practitioners, as well as its victims.






The issue is not the issue
Does anyone think that the terrorists' advocates care one wit about them or their civil rights?

This is simply the Democrats' "get even" time for the impeachment of Clinton and the loss of the 2000 election.

That could be the problem.
"But of course we do not do that kind of thing".


But that too is something we don't go in for, at least not in theory".


Both of Mr. Buckley's statements have been true. Both statements make it more difficult to successfully defend us against the Muslims who live to kill every one of us, and are happy to die in the effort.


As far as John McCain is concerned, his time in captivity has long since been tarnished beyond repair. His crummy personality, and his self-serving addiction to stabbing the Republican Party base in the back, has made him contemptible in the eyes of most Republicans. At least non-RINO Republicans. Half of the time the Democrats can count on his support more than Republicans can.



Colin Powell has revealed himself to be a closet Democrat and liberal. Slick, but no longer worth consideration for the Presidency. He is just another Foggy Bottom elitist who considers the State Department as the proper agency to devise foreign policy. They obviously believe that if the President does not agree with the policy they want in place, then it is their duty to undermine the President.


In wartime that constitutes treason, and is punishable by death. Of course in America today treason seems to an accepted instrument of politics. I can't help wondering how Colin Powell, after Court Marshall, would look facing a firing squad. He's such a distinquished looking cuss. I bet he would decline the blindfold.


Wow! The lefties and the Black Caucus would scream loud enough to be heard all over the world. Without electronic assistance either. One thing that event would accomplish, is that the arrogant, treacherous top hats in State would begin to think twice before they jeopordize America's safety again. That would be a good thing.


Seance Moment
Does anyone, such as our elected and appointed officials, have the testicular fortitude to call up the spirit of a General George S. Patton from amongst us and turn that spirit loose on our enemies?

GEM

Mountain Rose
I dispute your claim that your 4 are virgins. 3 out of 4 at the most.

Very Moral and very dead
Recently one of the guests on FOX News was one of the lib law professors that make regular appearances. His comment was basically that nothing justified torture. Mind you, he didn't define whether torture was being made to listen to Rosie or have your fingers chopped off. On his lofty platform he would remain moral to the end.

My contention is that if you're dead you're dead and it doesn't do much good to have been moral to the extreme. Being by choice is different than being immoral by nature. Using high pressure or extreme means during a time of great danger doesn't make us immoral, it makes us a nation that can use extreme means when necessary.

From the bits and pieces that make the news and talk shows it appears that most of the "torture" is the psychological breaking of the will to resist without hurting the body. Sleep deprivation reduces the mental functions necessry to lie or remember previous lies. It also tires the body making it crave sleep. The great thing is that it leaves no scars and a few days of normal sleep and your feeling great again. Being placed in a cold room for extended periods makes you shiver, standing up for extended periods makes your feet hurt. Having you kneecaps drilled leaves you a cripple.

Being moral and keeping to the high road in the way that some politicians appear to want it is akin to signing on to a suicide pact. The only way we can stay safe is to get intelligence and we can't get intelligence by saying please to someone who doesn't want to talk to us.

When John McCain was captured did he spill his guts everytime his questioner said "after your afternoon exercise period, if you're not too busy, please come to my office and tell me about...."? I doubt it.

Treating them with kid gloves is not going to get us anything. Recently a suspected terrorist in London complained that detainees were treated better in Gitmo. Maybe if we threaten to send them to London they'll talk, but then some one would claim it's cruel and inhuman punishment.

Getting real about the enemy
I call the people shooting at us or planning to bomb us "enemy combatants," a usage I've noticed increasing among Bush's people. We absolutely have to move away from the world of the Geneva Convention, at least when it comes to how we think of enemy fighters. They don't need uniforms; they certainly have a command structure, organized operations, doctrine, and logistics. By any reasonable standards, they are the soldiers who fight for our enemies.

A case can be made that such combatants are entitled to the protections of the Geneva Convention and other international agreements. However, I think an even better case can be made for keeping our secret prisons secret and our alternative methods of interrogation off the front pages of the world's press.


Maczed
Don't do this again. Do you undestand that you burn up a tremendous amount of space? Cut it out will you!

I don't care how important you think it is, or how important it may be, all you have done is irritate people who might be in agreement with you on most things.

It was really lousy of you to put this thing on more than one thread. If you do this again I am going to try to get the webmaster to shut you down.

Let us not be stumped by morality
Bravo, Mr. Buckley!

The point is made clearly and concisely that these "combatants" are anything but organized, and that, therefore, "Congress has the authority to modify its endorsement of the Geneva protocol by acting on the vagueness not only of the prohibition, but also of the category -- 'combatants seized in wartime'...."

Positively brilliant description, dissection, diagnosis and treatment plan for what everyone else seems to find so confounding.

Congress appears to be either paralyzed or polarized; all they need is to read your column. This suggestion will be sent in e-mail messages to them this evening.

Thank you again for another razor-sharp analysis of a problem seemingly insurmountable by so many.

MacZed, please be pithy
i.e., tersely cogent.

W. Buckley..Terrorist Rights?
I am confused..
The Terrorist profess to their wish to KILL US and we want to protect their rights to do so...Is that what this is all about?

Why didn't you say so.

I thought I lived in the U.S.A. where my father and fathers before him fought in many wars to protect our borders and to sometimes free other people to be free.

Colin Powell only speaks for himself as do others. But our President has the unique position of actually speaking for the sane citizens of the U.S.A. who EXPECT him to PROTECT the tax-payers and citizens of his COUNTRY.

What part of this do the detractors not understand?


Huzzah, MacZed!
The most awesome psychotic ramble I've ever read! Keep up the good work; you're an animated recruitment poster for liberals!

MacZed
This shouldnt be allowed... not even ONCE. A complete abuse of privilege.

Reply to Mountain Rose
Yep, that would work. I'm very familiar with Lake Superior. However, we need to get intel out of the people we have locked up, and I'll be you know a line from a song that goes "Superior, it's said, never gives up her dead...."

Good
Informed Voter writes:

Having our military reflect American society's values of noble and moral behavior .....
.
.
.
So when do we start shooting these guys?

Right and Wrong
Many conservatives argue that the US was created based on a Judeo/Christian ethic. This is generally believed to be the forgiving and loving god, not the wrathful and vengeful god. I was taught to do the right thing and that frequently the right thing is the hard choice to make. It pains me to say that I think torture is wrong when it could provide useful information. (Yes, Kimberly, sometimes it DOES provide good information, just as sometimes it DOES NOT provide good information.)

The President will do what he is going to do. I can't change him, nor can I change those that want to inflict torture on our opponents. My gut reaction is to extract information from these people in any way possible, but that is just the easy way out.

I hate these terrorists. I hate that they kill innocent people for no discernable reason. I hate that they killed my friends. I just believe that my hatred must be put aside because it is the right thing to do.

The arguments about our enemies following or not following the Geneva Convention are stupid to the point of being disingenuous. This isn't about what our enemies are going to do. This is about our national character and about what WE are going to do. I can only hope that among all the rhetoric about how we should be fighting this battle, someone, somewhere remembers our national character.

P.O.W.s
I spent over 4 years on the AOL Vietnam Board defending John McCain's conduct as a POW and I will repeat my main point here.

John McCain did nothing wrong as a POW!

On the other hand, I can not say about his conduct as a senator.

Colin Powell never revealed his party affiliation while he was on active duty and as a general officer, I believe that is appropriate.

He may well be like me, a John Kennedy/Harry Truman Democrat whose beliefs are more closely aligned with the modern Republican Party than the Democrat Party.

Clyde9

MAC"ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ"ED
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MacZed
No prob... nobody died, I hope!

Buckley "stumped" by morality
"Stumped by morality?" So that's what it takes to stump the great William F. Wordsmith. Morality. Interesting.

Interesting, too, that Buckley ended on this note: "But they (members of Congress) should not be dumbfounded into inactitivity by general appeals to the Ten Commandments."
Oh, yes! Beware of those "appeals to the Ten Commandments." They can stifle a lot of "activity" by our government. And why should our president be hindered, even hamstrung by the Ten Commandments, which are, after all, pre-911. Surely we have a greater than Moses with us now. Greater than Solomon, too.

Still, I wonder: Is this the same Bill Buckley who used to argue so persuasively against "Caesarism" when LBJ was president? We were at war then, too, remember? In fact I recall hearing Mr. Buckley say, during a debate with Joseph Duffey at Trinity College in Hartford, Connecticut in October of 1969, that our role in Vietnam was nothing less than an effort to "keep the barbarians at bay."

Apparently, we failed, Mr. Buckley. The barbarians are now in the White House, being encouraged in their barbarism by the pre-eminent spokesman for modern conservatism.

Conservatism has seen better days. Where have you gone, Bob Alfonso Taft?
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