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Saturday, July 21, 2007
Wayne Winegarden :: Townhall.com Columnist
Fighting Global Warming the Liberal Way
by Wayne Winegarden
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Concerns about global warming, and its potentially devastating impact on the planet, has caught Congress’ attention. Global warming may well be serious, but so are the consequences from combating global warming. The economic costs of reducing carbon emissions are by no means trivial and therefore it’s not enough for policymakers to simply press forward in the name of global warming and ignore the economic consequences of the various plans.

What we can say with a high degree of certainty is (1) A cap and trade policy is inappropriate and (2) that a higher overall tax rate on carbon emissions per se will have a devastatingly negative impact on the long term growth of America and the world. Poverty, despair, and suffering will expand exponentially.

Cap and trade regulations cap greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions, sub-divide the cap into smaller parts (or emissions allowances aka rationing coupons), and distribute the emissions allowances to businesses that emit GHGs. Those companies that wish to emit GHGs beyond their specific allowances could purchase the right to do.

Cap and trade regulations are nothing more than tax increases in disguise. Why? In order to effectively limit GHG emissions, the emissions cap must be set at a level below what the market is currently emitting. Reducing the amount of emissions below current market levels reduces the amount of energy we can produce – at least in the short-run. A reduction in the supply of energy below current market demand causes energy prices to increase.

Energy consumers in the U.S. will, consequently, face significantly higher energy prices due to a cap and trade regime. The Department of Energy estimated that had the U.S. joined the Kyoto Protocol, energy prices would have increased by as much as 86 percent. Because consumers are paying higher prices for their energy as a result of a federal law, the impact on the consumer is the same as if the government imposed the tax directly on the consumer.

However, the tax revenues from the cap and trade tax will not likely go to the government. There are two ways in which the emissions allowances can be allocated: the government can auction off the rights (thereby collecting the “tax revenue” themselves) or they can simply distribute these rights to the companies based on some grandfathering system. Following the European example, discussions in the U.S. are leaning towards the latter. Because the companies will receive the rights to pollute without paying for them, the revenues from the higher prices are transferred from the consumer to the producer – which may be an undesirable outcome from an equity perspective.

There are further problems with cap and trade regulations. For instance, these regulations create significant price volatility. The experience of Europe’s carbon emissions market is a classic example of the natural consequences of regulations that impose caps or constraints on the market. In fact, the Congressional Budget Office, citing the price volatility issue, concluded that cap-and-trade regulations are not a sound policy alternative for addressing global warming issues.

While cap and trade policies are undesirable, there is a better path if we are going to address global warming concerns. In a recent paper I co-authored with Arthur Laffer, we examined the implications of alternative global warming policies.

According to the scientific consensus that man-made carbon emissions are causing global warming, there is a consumption problem. Whether or not one believes this scientific consensus is correct, man-made global warming is a possible risk. With respect to the appropriate policy response, the question is whether good government policies can create a less risky scenario. The answer is yes.

When consumers use energy, or products created from energy, the prices do not reflect the costs from the carbon emissions on the environment; consequently consumption is higher than optimal. The appropriate policy response is a tax on consumption, the source of the market distortion, but not on trade or production.

But, the catch is that carbon taxes impose a giant negative incentive on both producers and consumers through the higher costs the tax creates. Furthermore, if the carbon tax were implemented as a means to expand government, then the amount of inefficiencies in the economy would increase even further.

However, if the carbon tax increase were offset, dollar for dollar, with an across the board marginal income tax reduction, many of the adverse impacts from the carbon tax increase would be mitigated. A marginal tax rate cut—ideally to a flat rate with strong taxpayer protections against future tax increases—has two types of effects. Because the decrease in marginal tax rates lowers the cost to the employer in the form of lower wages paid, firms will employ more workers. On the supply side, a reduction in marginal tax rates raises net wages received. Again, more work effort will be supplied. Therefore, tax cuts increase the demand for, and the supply of, factors of production. In dynamic formulations, as tax rates fall, output growth increases and vice versa.

The rewards for incremental work by labor, the employment of additional capital and the more efficient combination of the two will all be higher. As a result, more employment, output and production is expected. Economic growth rates will accelerate until these effects are fully incorporated into the workings of the economy. All of the aforementioned positive incentive effects help offset the impact of the carbon tax on production.

From the global warming perspective, the lower marginal tax rates do not impact the reduced incentive to consume carbon emissions because carbon tax increase has raised the relative price of carbon emissions.

Thus, the higher taxes on carbon emissions provides incentives for people to reduce the amount of greenhouse gas emitted while the lower marginal income tax rates provides incentives for people to increase the amount of economic activity. The result is a policy that reduces the risks associated with both the environmental and economic concerns.

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About The Author

Wayne H. Winegarden Ph.D. is a partner in the firm Arduin, Laffer & Moore Econometrics.

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More Liberal Solutions
For more on liberal solutions to Global Warming - check out Jim Coleman's commentary on Ben Affleck's solution (stopping transportation of goods and services). http://www.terrarossa.com/?p=202.

What a Scam
Global warming and cooling are natural recurring phenomena
This whole global warming panic is nothing more than a scam.
Most of the advocates who are scientists have a real reason for their positions....funding! And the government see's it as another way to extort more money from all of us.
Wanna stop global warming, eliminate all the political hot ait.
Most real scientists believe the sun is the and cosmic energy is the primary factor. Doesnt anyone remember the ice ages? They come and go. Greenland was once like europe climate wise.
Oh they told me that in the 3rd grade when we had an education system that worked.

Greg England
Thanks. Excellent points.

As I recall, by the Seventies, Hayek was catching onto American terminology and did admit that his political philosophy lined up nicely with American conservative philosophy.

Each nation has its own version of the political spectrum. The differences are even more instructive when discussing the word "conservative." Overall, conservative means the desire to conserve something.

Communists who want to conserve Communism are conservatives.

European traditionalists who want to conserve monarchy, aristocracy, and the state-run church are conservatives.

Members of traditional tribal societies in the Third World who wish to conserve their traditions are conservatives.

Americans who wish to defend American political and economic freedoms are conservatives.

We Americans are unusual only because our nation was born liberal (in the classical sense) unlike other nations, so American conservatives are equivalent to classical liberals.

TheLeftIsEvil
"He said he was not a conservative in the European sense of the word. And he certainly was not. American conservatives ARE classical liberals."

Good point. Too many debates stifled by semantics. The world liberal is a particularly elastic political word, since it has been used to mean anything from Libertarian to Progressive.

(Or rather, modern day 'liberals' are really Social Democrats in disguise)

The UK Conservative Party has gone through the following recent evolutions:

US Conservatism/Libertarianism (Thatcher)
European Conservatism (John Major)
...
Hand wringing Liberalism (David Cameron)

Craigers
"Wayne shows the problem with neo-cons. They have already given stupidity the benefit of the doubt. As they have already adopted a cushy eroding position, it is only a matter of time before the embrace the lie completely. F. A. Hayek's essay, "Why I am not a conservative" is apropos here. (please google and read it and the diference between classical liberalism and conservatism)"

F.A. Hayek lived in Chicago for ten years, but remained a European for the rest of his life. He said he was not a conservative in the European sense of the word. And he certainly was not.

American conservatives ARE classical liberals.

Last post
"Conservatives have no global warming agenda put to ignore it. And that's because giving it any credence whatsoever would acknowledge that liberals, while perhaps misguided, were onto something."

I believe Churchill said: "The greatest lesson in life is to know that even fools are right sometimes."

Though the internet also attributes this to Horace.

In any case, I hope my numerous posts have convinced you that there is a ... Third Way?

Correction
It's been a while since I last had to tax my car (don't worry, I'm still legal)

The Beeb article was too pessimistic.

Here are the actual rates:

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/OwningAVehicle/HowToTaxYourVehicle/DG_10012524

Elasticity
"...any additional money which flows into the federal government, from whatever source, collected for whatever reason, will flow down one or more of the larger rat holes, unproductively, never to be seen again...."

I hadn't heard that analogy before.
Thanks for that!

I'm not an expert in fiscal policy, but the 'law of diminishing returns' comes to mind.

There are other economic effects that governments like to ignore.

For example, we have very high fuel taxes in the UK. These are supposed to be 'green taxes'.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6464783.stm

However, fuel is one of those commodities that is 'price inelastic', (i.e. price increases have precious little effect on demand) and even wikipedia agrees:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elasticity_(economics)

Our cinemas are now showing lots of reduce-your-carbon-footprint ads showing lots of people cycling everywhere.

Or TV advers showing lots of appliances switched on and horror music playing.

So much for belief in human progress.
What does progressive mean again, exactly?

MyOpine
"I was not joking about Biodiesel."

Don't worry, I'm on your side.

As I come from the UK, even the UK Conservative Party is lead by a Watermelon.

I detect...
the "do something, anything, even if it's wrong" refrain. Do something just so it does not appear that you are doing nothing, even if nothing is the right thing to do.

Much of the resistance to a carbon tax is the understanding that the federal government has a virtual monopoly on the "rat hole" market; and, that any additional money which flows into the federal government, from whatever source, collected for whatever reason, will flow down one or more of the larger rat holes, unproductively, never to be seen again.

The above statement regarding rat holes is not a theory based on "consensus"; it is the result of extensive data collection on multiple experiments and thorough analysis of the data. It is therefore a political law of nature.

MyOpine

MyOpine says
>>>
There are things that could be done;
A canal from Death Valley to the Pacific Ocean would turn Death Valley into an inland sea.
Evaporation cooling would change the climate and removing the water from the ocean would help lower sea level.
>>>

Water covers approximately 70% of the earth's surface. How much do you think the flooding of death valley would have on the surface level of all that water covering the earth?

How large is the surface of the Pacific Ocean in comparison to your proposed surface level in Death Valley? Any cooling benefit from evaporation of water in Death valley would a minscule fraction of a minute percentage of the total cooling already in effect from natural means across the Pacific.

And again addition evaporation adds moisture into the atmoshpere causing the potential of more rains downwind. Could the unintended consequences of your suggestion be the increase in flooding and erosion in other parts of the world?

Just wondering why we should allow someone to tinker with something that is far, far, far beyond the understanding of mankind.

drivebyposting

drivebyposting says:
>>>
But then they have nothing to say about the natural effects of the Sun on global warming.
>>>

So, drivebyposting, how much money should we, the American taxpayer, invest/waste to turn down the dimmer switch on the sun? And even if we could do that, how low should we set that thermostat, and what would be the unintended consequences of such a move?

Liberals, sheech! Let's play God. Being like God was the first lie Satan told mankind. Look where that got us.

Hey drivebyposting: Please do the

"driveby" part.. and quickly.

Bye!


Greg England
I was not joking about Biodiesel.
It produces the same carbon emission as regular diesel fuel and it requires more of it because you get less MPG.
It also produces Nitrous Oxide,(yes "Laughing Gas").

I see the English seem to think a tax will help cool the Earth and protect us from AGW.
I don't expect a rax to do anything but bilk people of the money they work to earn.

There are things that could be done;
A canal from Death Valley to the Pacific Ocean would turn Death Valley into an inland sea.
Evaporation cooling would change the climate and removing the water from the ocean would help lower sea level.

There are several things that could be DONE!
No one is proposing DOING anything, they only propose taxes!
The reason they do not propose doing anything is they know AGW is a HOAX!
It has been proven a HOAX here at TH so many times I find it amazing anyone is still naive enough to fall for it.

Public Relations
Global Warming illustrates the dysfunctionality of politics today.

If the liberals are for it, we must be agin it.

Great. Like Ostriches, conservatives stick their heads in the sand with "Mars is heating up, the cycle is natural, don't worry, be happy." Yeah right. Millions of people, who knows?, how many could die whether the warming is natural or man-made.

The public relations campaign the conservatives are wielding on this issue is that "liberals say it, therefore it is wrong." Which is pretty much the same public relations campaign conservatives wield on most polarizing topics.

As the effects of global warming become more-and-more apparent over the years to the average person, what then? More "don't worry, be happy, because its a liberal issue and they are always wrong?"

Conservatives have no global warming agenda put to ignore it. And that's because giving it any credence whatsoever would acknowledge that liberals, while perhaps misguided, were onto something.

The Conservative position on global warming gives huge merit to the notion that conservatives don't care about the environment, which is not true, and compounding the politics of the day even more.

Conservatives correctly criticize the left for their confidence that global warming is man-made.

But then they have nothing to say about the natural effects of the Sun on global warming. It's just a liberal "Don't worry, be happy, and if you die, you'll die happy."


To driveby
The price of gas has nothing to do with tis thread, but anyway, it is lower today than it was during the Iran/Iraq war.

http://zfacts.com/p/35.html

So let me get this straight
" that a higher overall tax rate on carbon emissions per se will have a devastatingly negative impact on the long term growth of America and the world. Poverty, despair, and suffering will expand exponentially."

Right, so when the free market triples the price of gasoline from what it was before the Iraq war to today's price, it will not have a negative impact on Poverty, despair and suffering.

But if Congress puts a tax on gasoline CO2 emissions, hell will follow?

Tripling oil prices per barrel effects everything from home heating, food costs and airline tickets.

Yet, tripling oil prices has had no impact on poverty and suffering?

I'm not arguing a C02 tax is merited. I am saying that I smell of whiff of hypocrisy here were if the free market jacks up prices for no reason other than supply and demand, and profits, then the cost increase is benign.

To Greg England
The entire thing becomes obvious when you examine the players and realize that it is a scam designed to bilk money out of the civilized nations and give it to the uncivilized. All you need is a bunch of idiots who get their science from comic books and you have a workable scam.

MyOpine
"Anne. The FIRST thing our Govenors should do is outlaw Biodiesel."

Absolutely!

How can it be virtuous to run cars on fuel that has come from plants that were grown last month ...

... but wicked to run cars on fuel that has come from plants that were grown millions of years ago?

Oh, and don't even dare suggest that it is because the first fuel is renewable and absorbs CO2!

People who suggest that are being disingenuous because they are quite often the same people who mock the idea that extra CO2 in the atmosphere will encourage plant growth (i.e. that nature already has a feedback mechanism in place)

Several cakes are being had and eaten once again.

johninoregon
"What about the new business activity and the new jobs generated by the transition to renewable-energy technologies. What about the cost-savings to businesses, industries, and individuals from measures taken to improve energy efficiency?"

I agree with you about nuclear power ... I think it should be a government project which could be embraced by Conservatives under the remit of energy security.

In fact there is a famous P.I.G conservative publication (I won't say which one) that advocates nuclear power for the very reason I am giving.

And hey, if it closes down the global warming debate all the better.

However, as to your first comment. With all due respect John in Oregon, I think you are putting lipstick on the pig.

Of course environmentalism creates new jobs (as described in the P.I.G guide to Global Warming and Environmentalism), but overall it is a loss to the economy.

This is an example of the 'broken window fallacy' (i.e. smashing a window creates a job for the glazier). Just think about how many jobs could be created if we smashed all the windows in the US or the UK .... of course in aggregate it is an economic loss.

Opportunity cost springs to mind (all those glaziers could be working on something else). Of course, those who are passionate believers in man made global warming are using the opportunity cost argument to say "what if we don't do something"

However, Al Gore in particular is keen to spin the potential problem in order to steer the political debate his way (since the IPCC projections are far more moderate).

His 90% reduction targets are an exercise in demogogy (my favourite new word) since anyone who thinks clearly about economics will realise that without realistic alternative energy sources (no ... not windmills!!!) this would destroy the world economy and this would NOT save the planet or help poverty or do ANYTHING useful.

I'm a little different from most of the conservatives here, because I'm trying to do a Bill Clinton and "triangulate".

I genuinely believe that "man-made global warming" is a red herring here, for reasons I have already explained.

I think the priority must be energy security.

I have no problems with your post - thanks for debating.

However, I really, really get angry at the deep Green environmentalists (the use-one-sheet-of-toilet-paper brigade).

I debated the one-sheet-of-paper with someone who said that noone would take this seriously - but this was the same person who refuses to flush the toilet every time it is used ... in order to save the planet. Nuff said!!

POTSI
What you do not understand is that amount of tax is not what the employee agrees to pay the government, the tax is part of what the employer agrees to pay the employee. Using round numbers for clarity: If I own a business and have a $100,000 budget for labor, and I know that the tax rate is 20%, and knowing that qualified workers will want to earn at least $20,000 for this job, then I will have to pay them $25,000 to ensure they will work for me. If the tax rate is lowered to 16%, then in effect I can now hire them for $24,000 and they still take home the same money. My overall cost of labor goes down as a result of the tax cut. For those people already hired, they take home about $800 more. The taxes (and social security and health insurance and vacation and every other benefit) are part of the cost of labor. When that cost is lowered, it benefits the employer who can either hire more employees, ensure more productive employees stay with the company by paying them more, pay dividends to stock holders to ensure larger investment, improve capital to make existing employees even more productive, or some combination of these.

another thing
"According to the scientific consensus that man-made carbon emissions are causing global warming"

Wayne ol buddy ol dimmwit, science isn't done by consensus, never has been and never should be. Consensus is a political term. Science is ruled by skepticism and the empirical method. One does not vote on truth or facts!

Stop using the leftist lexicon!

Slippery slope Conservatives
"Global warming may well be serious, .....According to the scientific consensus that man-made carbon emissions are causing global warming, there is a consumption problem. Whether or not one believes this scientific consensus is correct, man-made global warming is a possible risk"

Wayne shows the problem with neo-cons. They have already given stupidity the benefit of the doubt. As they have already adopted a cushy eroding position, it is only a matter of time before the embrace the lie completely. F. A. Hayek's essay, "Why I am not a conservative" is apropos here. (please google and read it and the diference between classical liberalism and conservatism)

How can you fight something that needs to be fought if you have given ground to your ideological enemy?

Start at Sepp . org sign up for their weekly email the week that was and learn the TRUTH!

Get a clue you brainless boobs! Educate yourself fully about global warming so you will stop making these asanine comments!

MyOpine: I knew (some) about the

energy losses, but I wasn't aware that it was all that much energy.

I was also aware that the hybreds were polluters, but I wasn't aware that they polluted more than regular cars.

This is looking more and more grim, isn't it?

So, what are we actually accomplishing with these cars????

What I DIDN'T know, and hadn't even thought about, was the sulfuric acid in the battery that would ignite flamable organic substances.

I would think they'd be banned in Calif. which is known for dry grass and shrubs, etc., and some of the other states that are trying to cope with forest fires... Wonder how many forest fires they'll eventually figure out will be started by these hybreds in case of accidents?

Hey, there's a winner! Bet the auto insurance companies are thrilled about that!


firetoice; Thanks for the link!

That will be some good reading, I'm sure.


Anne
Hybreds make some of their own power.
Now;
There is an energy loss generating electricity.
There is an energy loss converting electrical energy to chemical energy to store in a battery.
There is an energy loss converting the chemical energy in the battery back to electrical energy to power the motor.
Hybreds pollute more than regular autos and moving those heavy batteries around takes more fuel yet.
In the event of an accident you should remember that sulfuric acid from that battery will ignite any flamable organic substance, like gasoline or that pair of cotton geans you are wearing or dry weeds alongside the highway.

Someday, someone will find a way to control Series Resonance.
On that day electric autos will be practical.
Not until.

Anne
For the answer to your question, see:
http://www.utilitiesproject.com/documents.asp?grID=111&d_ID=4296 (registration required, but free)

"A goal without a plan is just a wish"
Antoine de St. Exupery

The AGW "affirmers" have a "wish", which they are screaming from the rooftops. However, if they have a plan to turn that wish into a goal and then "git 'er done", they have not let the rest of us in on it. Maybe they're afraid we would find the plan too onerous.


They seem to be very concerned that, if we are able to pull back the curtain, we will be less than impressed with their version of "The Great Oz". I think that concern is valid!

MyOpine: I just heard on Glenn Beck

that it takes one acre of corn to produce 50gals of "low grade" petrol.

And, based on the hundreds of thousands of gallons that we use each year, it's impossible to allocate enough acreage to grow enough corn to produce enough low grade fuel.

And in addition to that, it means more fuel consumption to transport the corn to plants to distill or refine the corn.

It's just a stupid, illadvised and not well thought out plan.


Now, here's my next question. How are we supposed to produce enough electricity to power these hybrids?



Anne
The FIRST thing our Govenors should do is outlaw Biodiesel.
It causes the same pollution as regular diesel but it gets less miles to the gallon and it forms generous amounts of nitrogen oxide byproduct.

Very much of nitrogen oxide near a lake or pond can pollute the lake or pond with acid.

firetoice & MyOpine: We know it's not

rocket science.

All we need is for the loopy liberals to allow us to:

1. drill in the Gulf of Mexico and off the coast of Calif.

2. refurbish some old refineries & build a few new ones.

3. drill and ANWAR!

Oh, and may a few windmills off the coast of Mass. (Teddy-the-swimmer can sail out and do some maintenance when necessary. LOL)


johninoregon
None of the alternate fuels proposed so far are less costly and most cause more pollution and you evidently have not read any of the previous posts that debunk AGW.

Since AGW has been proven a hoax, why do we need alternate fuels?
Most cause more air pollution by requiring more to do the same job petro products do better and cheaper.

johninoregon
You had better hope (pray?) that nuclear is possible without subsidies.

thunderbolt
What they really need is the "World Healer" turbine for the new Gulfstream G6, so our spiritual leaders can hold their "Live Earth" concerts without guilt.

What about the economic BENEFITS?
I commend Mr. Winegarden for taking the potential impacts of climate change seriously, but like most conservative commentators, he talks only about the costs of amelioration, not about the benefits. What about the new business activity and the new jobs generated by the transition to renewable-energy technologies. What about the cost-savings to businesses, industries, and individuals from measures taken to improve energy efficiency? Some of the nation's best minds---including some in business---are already focused on the exciting prospects for building a sustainable energy future. But all I hear from conservatives is talk about the costs and inconveniences of leaving the outdated, wasteful, polluting, and non-renewable old energy system behind.

Well, occasionally conservatives do suggest nuclear energy as an option---which is laugh-out-loud funny in view of the alleged conservative disdain for the the kinds of government subsidies that make nuclear possible.

bull warming
Personally, I "glo" when my bull is ground and warmed to about 130F (rare), with blue cheese and bacon.

the economy
relax everybody, the newer,bigger "spitfire V-8" will be built, corporate america will just have to make a larger "donation" to the political system in power at the time,after all, scientific concensus doesn't come cheap. The name however will have to be changed to...ah...yeah, the "WORLD HEALER V-8" that should make the tatoo and piercing crowd "feel" better.


Vic: Yup, I do know that ol' Navy

saying... :-)

But, if you notice, we don't have to worry about the "baffle'em" part because we all KNOW that we're brighter, MUCH BRIGHTER, than the libtards!


And that ol' Navy saying goes right along with "horse feathers" which was one of my father's favorites... at least around women and children. :-)

And that's EXACTLY what he'd say about "glo-bull warming".... HORSE FEATHERS! :-)







Greg England
It will take more than one flag to harm you.

More to the subject of Carbon Offsets;
I have a squarsh plant in my garden that does not grow along the ground, it grows straight up!
It is elbow high already and growing fast.
Honest guys, I bought those seeds with money, I did not trade a cow for any of them.
If I vanish you will know the Giant got me!

How do you ...
How do you contact townhall to say ...

OOOOPS!

Oops
I will try again:

Take the blue pill - and we roll back the industrial revolution and all the benefits it has brought us.

That scans better. No double negative.

Hey, townhally people!!!

I flagged my own post as offensive by mistake!!!

Fuzzy
"But not this time. Now we are in overwhelming agreement that the Earth is cooling, and it is MAN'S FAULT!"

Absolutely. When liberals present you with a Gordian Knot ... we know what to do, don't we?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordian_Knot

To mix my metaphors:

Take the blue pill - and we roll back the industrial revolution and all the horrors it has spared us. We also ruin our economies and reduce our options for future security problems.

Take the red pill - and we use our industrial expertise to find alternatives to oil and gas (e.g. hydro-electric, nuclear and whatever else we can come up with) which achieves the following:

(1) Silences the global warming lobby
(2) Decouples our economies from unstable regimes
(3) Answers the "what happens when the oil runs out" lobby

Everybody wins!

(Except Greenpeace and Friends of the Earth, who would rather we lived in mudhuts)

Environmental feedback systems
James Lovelock, no conservative he, postulated environmental feedback systems such as you've postulated. There are heating and cooling cycles, growing and lessening carbon dioxide cycles. They are self-regulating. The biosphere is self-organized.

Democrats, who believe in top-down everything, can't believe the global systems can get by without government regulations.

There are no emoticons existent that can convey my disdain for such silliness.

How much
vegetation is the right amount for the Earth? If we cut down on Co2 which plants require, won't the Earth's natural processes cause a reduction in plant life? Is that good for Earth? Is it good for the animals? Is it good for the plants?

If the amount off the Earth's vegetation is reduced because of lower Co2 levels, won't they absorb less of the Co2 we emit? Won't the net result be that we are in the same position except we are now except that we will be without power. Will we be able to stop global cooling without power, which history shows will come into play again in the next 30 years?

Imagine these scientific minds if they were presented with indisputable evidence of global cooling in 30 years. Would they admit they were wrong about warming? Would they admit that the evidence is in and now we are experiencing cooling?

No. They would do what they do now. They would dismiss the previous disaster threat as foolishness. Saying we didn't know enough then. Our models were wrong. There was concensus but no absolute proof. They would say science rarely operates in the realm of absolute proofs. We acted on the data we collected and how we interpreted it. We interpreted it wrong.

But not this time. Now we are in overwhelming agreement that the Earth is cooling, and it is MAN'S FAULT!

Here's my response 30 years in advance-

Sell your snake oil to someone else.

To Anne
Yes, and besides it has a gas guzzling 8 cylinder engine that emits CO2. The CO2 caused global warming which in turn caused the delta-T between the internal cylinder and air to decrease. All good people know that in a carnot engine as the delta-T decreases the output and efficiency decrease. As this happens the old foot gets harder on the pedal and lo and behold, the engine fails.

LOL: If you can't dazzle'em with brilliance, baffle'em with BS (old Navy saying)

Geeze Vic: Of course it's global warming

And the repair bill would only have been $437.32 except that it happened to be a good Conservative driving your truck, and we all know that Conservative are causing more global warming than liberals.


:-)

Fire and Ice
Who else spotted the following story? It seems that scientists and their media buddies have been alternating between global warming and global cooling for generations!!

When will scientists ever develop a truly robust and predictive theory of global climate, similar in scope to the theory of evolution or the theory of relativity?

They sure aren't even close now. All we get is political venting (along with the volcanic type).

Read this excerpt of a most excellent analysis of a century of waffling on global climate change:

http://www.businessandmedia.org/specialreports/2006/fireandice/fireandice.asp

Fire and Ice

"Journalists have warned of climate change for 100 years, but can’t decide weather we face an ice age or warming

By R. Warren Anderson
Research Analyst

It was five years before the turn of the century and major media were warning of disastrous climate change. Page six of The New York Times was headlined with the serious concerns of “geologists.” Only the president at the time wasn’t Bill Clinton; it was Grover Cleveland. And the Times wasn’t warning about global warming – it was telling readers the looming dangers of a new ice age.

The year was 1895, and it was just one of four different time periods in the last 100 years when major print media predicted an impending climate crisis. Each prediction carried its own elements of doom, saying Canada could be “wiped out” or lower crop yields would mean “billions will die.”

Just as the weather has changed over time, so has the reporting – blowing hot or cold with short-term changes in temperature.

Following the ice age threats from the late 1800s, fears of an imminent and icy catastrophe were compounded in the 1920s by Arctic explorer Donald MacMillan and an obsession with the news of his polar expedition. As the Times put it on Feb. 24, 1895, “Geologists Think the World May Be Frozen Up Again.”

Those concerns lasted well into the late 1920s. But when the earth’s surface warmed less than half a degree, newspapers and magazines responded with stories about the new threat. Once again the Times was out in front, cautioning “the earth is steadily growing warmer.”

After a while, that second phase of climate cautions began to fade. By 1954, Fortune magazine was warming to another cooling trend and ran an article titled “Climate – the Heat May Be Off.” As the United States and the old Soviet Union faced off, the media joined them with reports of a more dangerous Cold War of Man vs. Nature.

The New York Times ran warming stories into the late 1950s, but it too came around to the new fears. Just three decades ago, in 1975, the paper reported: “A Major Cooling Widely Considered to Be Inevitable.”

That trend, too, cooled off and was replaced by the current era of reporting on the dangers of global warming. Just six years later, on Aug. 22, 1981, the Times quoted seven government atmospheric scientists who predicted global warming of an “almost unprecedented magnitude.”

In all, the print news media have warned of four separate climate changes in slightly more than 100 years – global cooling, warming, cooling again, and, perhaps not so finally, warming. Some current warming stories combine the concepts and claim the next ice age will be triggered by rising temperatures – the theme of the 2004 movie “The Day After Tomorrow.”

Recent global warming reports have continued that trend, morphing into a hybrid of both theories. News media that once touted the threat of “global warming” have moved on to the more flexible term “climate change.” As the Times described it, climate change can mean any major shift, making the earth cooler or warmer. In a March 30, 2006, piece on ExxonMobil’s approach to the environment, a reporter argued the firm’s chairman “has gone out of his way to soften Exxon’s public stance on climate change.”

The effect of the idea of “climate change” means that any major climate event can be blamed on global warming, supposedly driven by mankind.

Spring 2006 has been swamped with climate change hype in every type of media – books, newspapers, magazines, online, TV and even movies.

One-time presidential candidate Al Gore, a patron saint of the environmental movement, is releasing “An Inconvenient Truth” in book and movie form, warning, “Our ability to live is what is at stake.”

Despite all the historical shifting from one position to another, many in the media no longer welcome opposing views on the climate. CBS reporter Scott Pelley went so far as to compare climate change skeptics with Holocaust deniers.

“If I do an interview with [Holocaust survivor] Elie Wiesel,” Pelley asked, “am I required as a journalist to find a Holocaust denier?” he said in an interview on March 23 with CBS News’s PublicEye blog.

He added that the whole idea of impartial journalism just didn’t work for climate stories. “There becomes a point in journalism where striving for balance becomes irresponsible,” he said.

Pelley’s comments ignored an essential point: that 30 years ago, the media were certain about the prospect of a new ice age. And that is only the most recent example of how much journalists have changed their minds on this essential debate.

Some in the media would probably argue that they merely report what scientists tell them, but that would be only half true.

Journalists decide not only what they cover; they also decide whether to include opposing viewpoints. That’s a balance lacking in the current “debate.”

This isn’t a question of science. It’s a question of whether Americans can trust what the media tell them about science."


To Ken
I just got my truck out of the shop with a $600.00 repair bill for a few things that were wrong with it. When I asked the mechanic why these things failed on my 11 year old truck, his response was that it was caused by global warming.

solar warming
nuf said

Nanna
"A few years ago, it was a new ice age, where they were wanting to drop ashes on the ice caps so they would melt."

That is a BRILLIANT point! When I was going to school in the seventies, they constantly alarmed us with their predictions of another Ice Age. Now they're saying the world is going to be burned up.

Has the world really changed THAT much in thirty years? I hardly think so. That's another reason to be skeptical about global warming.

What a scam!!
Since the turn of the century, there have alternately been global warming and global cooling "crisis".

A few years ago, it was a new ice age, where they were wanting to drop ashes on the ice caps so they would melt. There always has to be something to panic about. And I'm tired of it.

The earth will do what it was designed to do, no matter how we ignorant people try to change things.

Helping nature always causes more trouble FOR nature. Like about 20 or so years ago, they dropped tires into the oceans to "help the coral reef. Well, they have just discovered, that those tires have killed a whole area of coral reef. A Large area is DED dead. Why can't we just leave things alone?

Now I'm on to them!
This Spring, my SUV was broadsided by another SUV and it was totalled. Now I know that it was merely a friendly environmentalist woman who hit me. Thank God for her.

My SUV (bad). Her SUV (acceptable, when used to take out my SUV). Mission accomplished. Earth survives another day.

Thus, now I am a better steward of the earth. I expect a certificate of merit will be forthcomming from the Algore "anything for a vote from you silly saps" Gore society.

Now for my solution to global warming and the struggling U.S. auto industry-

I propose to the American auto industry that they agressively market U.S. SUVs to the Chinese as I am predicting a market the size of, well, China. We all know it is ok if Chinese drive them, just not Americans. Japan can't sell them to the Chinese because they have a little town called Kyoto.



Why I'm skeptical...
I posted these thoughts on another article, but they are worth repeating. Here's why I'm skeptical about global warming:

When it's unseasonably warm, people blame it on global warming.

When it's unseasonably cool, people blame it on global warming.

When we have a shortage of rain, people blame it on global warming.

When we have excessive rain, people blame it on global warming.

When the hurricane season is exceptionally harsh, people blame it on global warming.

When the hurricane season is exceptionally mild, people blame it on global warming.

I could give many other examples, but I've made my point. Those who warn about "global warming" have a serious credibility problem. If they want me to listen to them, they need to abandon the Chicken Little rhetoric.

Fuzzy
All the "Environmentalists" want is something to frighten ignorant people with.
Global cooling will do just as well.

I wonder why they have not latched on to the hole forming in the Atlantic Ocean.
Also kind of wonder why there is no media fuss about it.
http://digg.com/environment/Scientists_study_gigantic_hole_in_Atlantic_seabed

And it is all your fault!
YOU caused it with your SUV!

Gofer
The brilliant cientists here have explanations for everything. They recently explained how effects can precede causes.

Thus we have come to the point where conclusions precede thought. Now that they have leaped off that cliff - anything is possible.

I don't know what the rest of them are waiting for. They should all be jumping off a cliff too. Consensus compells them and I won't stand in their way

Global Warming
has now given me zero confidence in the scientific community. No PHD required to see through this political manmade smog.

I'm just hoping the USA survives as a nation and a culture until the global cooling consensus comes back round.

The "good Stewards" baloney is annoying too. Good Stewards of what? Is the Earth less healthy with 3 additional feet of sea level? Seriously, who buys this stuff and how easily are they duped by any old snake oil salesman?

The sky is falling! The sky is falling!

How many experts in "sky falling" do I need for consensus? Now I don't want any physicists, engineers, climatologists, chemists, biologists, astronomers, etc giving thier input - only real "sky falling" experts. The rest are just pretenders.




Carlos
When you eat those extra tacos and it makes you so full of crap you need extra toilet paper, you need to be very careful where you buy those Carbon Offsets from.
http://www.junkscience.com/ByTheJunkman/20070412.html

It is safest to make your own in a back yard garden or plant a lawn in your front yard.

Enjoy those tacos while you can.
Good tacos do inspire people to overeat and require extra toilet paper though.

Creationism
Evolutionists need to explain how a Law of Thermodynamics can be suspended...it's like AGW, ignore and attack those facts that don't support their agenda.

A bite to eat
"Christians should get involved in the CONSERVATION movement."

Sorry for using the word SHOULD. I got carried away. I didn't mean any kind of moral obligation.

I mean in preference to the enviro-wacko movement.

Now the rest of you can have a say - I'm off to get some scoff!

Joseph Bazelgette
Next time envio-wackos start the old toilet flushing guilt, tell them the story of Joseph Bazalgette and the cholera epidemics in Victorian London:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Bazalgette

Light green movements may be harmless.

But the enviro-wackos are a pernicious breed!

The reason why
"But occasionally I do wonder since they are christians why didn't they get involved long ago just because it was the RIGHT THING TO DO."

Christians should get involved in the CONSERVATION movement.

They should actively shun the ENVIRONMENTAL movement which is full of far-left crazy ideas:

http://www.optimumpopulation.org/

The Science IS Settled
Man is not responsible for the temporary, very small increase in temperatures. The oceans are currently rising at a rate of 3 mm a year. This means, IF the rate is consent, which it will not be, it will take 333.3 years to raise 3 FEET!!!

All the hysteria about global warming is being driven by two forces.

1st - Earth worshiping pagans see man as an infestation on their god. Therefore we are to be punished because ALL things man does is evil by definition. Seperation of church and state anyone?

2nd - Liberal socialists see this as an opportunity to control the largest expansion of big government in the history of the US. They will kill the economy with their tax increases and put an ever increasing number of Americans on the dole. Then they will have to increase taxes again until we will have a middle class that resembles China's, relying on mopeds, and busses for transportation.

Then the socialists will rest and call it "good".

It's like wealth
"It doesn't matter how much energy you save ...
... you still have to GENERATE the stuff in the first place."

Here's another one for you:

It doesn't matter how much wealth you redistribute ... you still have to GENERATE wealth in the first place.

But how can we address poverty if our energy strategy focuses on energy-saving-lightbulbs and put-on-another-sweater?

Seriously. I don't have to go out on a limb with this ... I'm not expressing a political point of view.

This feels as natural as breathing.

I'm asking a straightforward question:

What is wrong with these people?

Oh Crap!

What about after eating Tacos? I sometimes need a few dozen sheets.

Should I buy a "Carbon T-P Offset"? How do I buy "Indulgences" from this church? Where is this church?

I want my Momma!

Green tax?
A green tax would cause runaway inflation at the same time it depressed the American economy.
In other words;
Everything would cost more but you would have less money to buy things with.
Loss of customers would force business to close down and cause widespread unemployment.

Other nation's depend upon our economy and more nations depend upon the economy of the other nations depending upon us.

This Communist program to frighten ignorent people into paying a World Tax under the guise of AGW has the potential to cause another Great World Depression just like the stock crash of 1929.
We don't need to cause that kind of World Wide suffering and death just to appease some Communist HOAX!

_____________
For Greg;
http://www.liberalwhiners.com/print.php?a=1218

More huffs
Here's Sheryl Crow's attitude towards nuclear power (I'm sure the Huffington Post will allow me a short quote)

"I know that nuclear is better than fossil fuels when it comes to carbon dioxide, but nuclear energy is by no means clean ... Let's face it, the cheapest energy is the energy you don't use in the first place."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sheryl-crow/learning-the-truth-about-_b_46228.html

Maybe you agree with this perspective. Maybe the cheapest energy is the energy you don't use. Certainly appliances shouldn't be left on standby for no good reason (e.g. TV sets).

But this is an exercise in missing the point.

It doesn't matter how much energy you save ...

... you still have to GENERATE the stuff in the first place.

Why are so many liberals (not all of them) resistant to the idea of discussing realistic plans to generate lots of energy?

All this restrict our energy crap (and I'm from the UK ... we don't use as much as you guys do) is window dressing.

It's negationism.

It's a complete refusal to think strategically about energy.

Flushing sin
"Is it a sin to flush? And if so, what religion, based on what morals, says so?"

Environmentalism of course.

We should feel guilty for even existing - you are creating CO2 just by breathing.

We shouldn't eat meat, because dung produces methane which is a greenhouse gas.

We should radically reduce the earth's population because we are a blight on the landscape instead of a blessing.

Here's the toilet paper reference, anyway, in a left-wing UK newspaper so I can't be accused of using right-wing bias:

http://environment.guardian.co.uk/waste/story/0,,2063758,00.html

Oh, and by the way. I recycle cans and bottles.

That's because I'm a CONSERVATIONIST (i.e. environmentalism without the lobotomy)

I'm getting depressed......

Is it a sin to flush? And if so, what religion, based on what morals, says so?

signed,

confused in Detroit

And another thing
Not only can we not flush, but we are only supposed to use one sheet of toilet paper.

Come on guys, you remember the reference ... don't make me find it for you!

Flushed with success
"How often do you flush?"

I debated this with someone at work who was convinced that we should not flush the toilet so often to save the planet.

Ann Coulter covered toilet flushing phobia in chapter 1 of her last book on the Church of Liberalism ...

The Great Leap Forward
Perhaps we should all abandon our polluting lifestyles, and instead set up large houses where many of us live under one roof collectively ... call this a collective.

We could share all our food and work off the land. Cars would be banned - we could bring back horse and cart (except that the animal rights extremists would be angry that we were exploiting horses)

Yeah, that would work.


ETERNAL LIBERAL LIFE...

The lefties have a common, contagious, theme.

Vote for me or Die!

Healthcare - Democrats say, "You can live forever under "our" healthcare system".

Global Warming - Democrats say, "It is the end of time... and unless you vote for us, you will die".

Iraq - Democrats say, "Bush is creating terrorists... vote for us, and we will save you".

Who exactly is the preacher? I'm thinking liberalism is a Church unto itself. Created to control the masses. The fear of death seems universal, and the Democrats see opportunity.



Letter to the Dallas News

.....27 Jun 2007

.....Luke & Dave ...

.....You guys are wimps ...how often do you change
your shorts? ...once a day? ...if you were really
serious about the environment you would only change
them once a month ...think how much water would be
saved ...

.....Do you shower daily? ...How often do you flush?
...If you were true eco-warriors you would stop
showering and only sponge bathe once a week and only
flush on Wednesdays and Sundays ...

.....If you were serious ...you would demand that the
Federal Government take over the Energy Companies and
all Utilities ...energy belongs to the people why
should we have to pay for it? ...

.....The government should ban all air conditioners
and electric fans ...think of how much energy we could
conserve ...Africa does quite well without these
unnessary luxeries ...what gives us the right to be
cool? ...then the government should mandate the
building of paper hand held fans and cotten
handkerchiefs to wipe our brows ...both biodegradeable
and eco-friendly products ...

.....Next the government should ban electric washing
machines and Dryers and mandate the return of cotton
clothes lines and the washing boards ...this would
have the added benefit of increased exercise and
healthier lifestyles ...

.....Yes there is much to be done but we will never
get there by following your half-assed advice ...we
have to lower the hammer ...ban all fossil fuels
...ban Nuclear power ...ban electricty ...we need to
return to our roots ...sun and wind ...

.....Green Communist

firetoice: Just a reminder....

Don't start posting your "logical" and "sensible" comments!!!!

Remember, this is about ga-lo-BULL warming, and you make the libs ca-razy when you post your usual common sense and logic... :-)


(Good to see your posts again. :-})

Demagogy
Wikipedia has a great definition of this term:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demagogy

Many of the tactics that environmental extremists use can be found at this link.

It's outrageous of them to do this, because all it does is close down debate.

firetoice... Great Points!

I'm with you on this one. If the US cuts carbon emissions, I doubt China or India will follow.

We will bury our selve-absorbed, righteous selves, in Red Tape. And the rest of the world will buy and burn the carbon anyway. Unless, China is trustworthy?

I'm betting higher prices for energy will drive alternatives. If the global energy prices are high enough... capitalism will find another way.

The romanticization...
of the "noble savage".

Global warming is a red herring
If global warming really is man-made it could be resolved overnight by rolling back the industrial revolution and committing the whole of humanity to a pre-industrial agrarian existence ... universal poverty.

Te real issue is the fact that there are 6 billion people on the planet and the world economy is growing.

It's a shame liberals aren't celebrating this, since they are always banging on about resolving poverty.

However, just as it is dangerous to grow a business too quickly (since you might not be able to satisfy customer orders, and you might need new premises, and new staff) a growing world economy does have attendant problems.

The primary issue is energy security.

I have read up on what Greenpeace and Friends of the Earth have to say about nuclear power and hydroelectric power generation and they are both negative and negationist.

Yet both power generation methods are renewable, and generate zero CO2 emissions.

Why aren't they shouting these from the roof?

I'll tell you why. It's because there are too many ideologues and demagogues within the environmental movement.

They are not interested in the big picture from a humanist perspective.

Remember Gore's Inconvenient Truth film? It may have been a powerful film but ask yourself these two questions:

(1) Why the romanticisation of nature? Shouldn't we be celebrating humanity as well?

(2) Why wasn't nuclear power or hydroelectric power mentioned in the film?

(correct me if I am wrong)

The only mention I recall was to criticise some dam building project i.e. yet another anti-industrial rant.

SteveL
I'm not a scientist, but I know about academic publishing, and it stinks. I would trust it over the long run (a period of, say, fifty years), but not over the short run. And I certainly would not trust any results in such a politicized area as global warming.

SteveL: "what happens if you're wrong?"

First of all, conservatives don't just "simply refuse to believe that man-made factors are driving up global warming..."

Most Conservatives, unlike the liberals, actually objectively look at cold hard EVIDENCE before we go and jump off some bridge. And so far, that cold hard EVIDENCE does NOT support algore's "man is responsible for ga-lo-BULL warming.

In fact, there is no EVIDENCE that the degree or so that the earth has warmed is anything other than a natural cycle that the earth has gone through a number of times.



Some Unpleasant Facts of Life
If anthropogenic carbon emissions are the sole source of global climate change, or even the predominant source of global climate change, the only approach which offers any possibility of stabilizing atmospheric carbon dioxide concentrations is the complete elimination of future anthropogenic carbon emissions; and, the only approach which offers any possibility of returning the globe to its previous idyllic state (apparently defined as 280 ppmv carbon dioxide) is complete elimination of future anthropogenic carbon emissions plus capture and permanent sequestration of all of the anthropogenic carbon emissions since the globe was last at its idyllic state.

If AGW is a global crisis, leading to an impending global climate catastrophe, it is amenable only to a global solution. Anything less is doomed to failure. If a crisis is imminent, the implementation of the solution must begin immediately.

With regard to the issue of carbon tax vs. cap and trade:
1)What carbon tax rate would be required to drive carbon consumption and emissions to zero, over what period of time?
2)How do you operate a cap & trade system when the cap is zero and the quantity of tradeable emissions is also zero?

With regard to reducing marginal tax rates to offset the carbon tax:
1)How do you reduce marginal tax rates for those who do not pay income taxes (about 50% of US population)?
2)How do you explain that those who were paying income taxes get larger absolute reductions than those who were not paying taxes?

Enquiring minds want to know!

More Big Government...

Global warming has only one purpose. To create a new layer of liberal government. Once the "Department of Global Warming" is created, it will be stuffed full of Democrat funraisers. These folks will be pushing paper (trees) back and forth to the tune of a trillion dollars.

And we will have a one party, dictatorial state.

Derailed-the debate we should be having
STEVEL: You make good points, but to me, the issue has been hijacked in the public debate to a point where we're talking about all the wrong things.

-We don't have to wreck economies over it, as the Kyoto treaty would have done.
-We should be looking for ways to be better stewards of natural resources, and ways to be kinder to the earth ANYWAY.
-We should aim our scientific resources at developing plans to deal with (or even benefit from) natural climate change, instead of the inane debate that now fills the public forum, which is as useful as arguing about how many angels fit on the head of a pin.

To stevel
What happens when we are proven right as has happened with EVERY one of the previous hoaxes regarding the environment? Will you personally pay for it? Will you personally pay all citizens for the increased costs?

In months of previous posts on this subject TH posters have given strong evidence with links that this issue is a scam designed to rob the American taxpayer and give the money to American and foreign crooks.

If the criminally insane Democrats and their RINO assistants decide to go with AGW then I offer the following:

Cap and trade and it's illegitimate cousin, carbon offsets, should not be used in any of this scam because it is ripe for corruption (which is why the UN wants it). You fix cap and trade by artificially set what each individual country/company is allowed and then make them pay some ungodly tax for exceeding that amount. IN the UN, of course the US has it’s amount set at a value significantly below what it was judged to be currently using while other countries were either exempted entirely or given an amount above what they were currently using. This was set not by logical agreement but by who was judged to be “deserving” by the third world majority that currently runs the UN. This same mess would be created in the US on a smaller scale with some companies judged to be “deserving” while other companies would be judged to be “evil” polluters. In any case, the real suffering personnel will be the taxpayer/consumer. Note that even as insane as the congress is, it will not enact legislation that will create a second depression (I hope),

The key to understanding this issue from a congressional standpoint is to ask the supporters of this legislation, as with other tax increases to achieve some nebulous objective, “what taxes are you going to decrease to make this revenue neutral?” When the inevitable answer comes that none will be reduced or that the increased taxes will be used for some other nebulous program, you will then see what the real objective is.

And finally, if we wait another 5 or 10 years, the evidence that we are in a cooling trend will be so overwhelming that even with the continued changing of the K-factors for adjusting temperature, the liars pushing this issue will be overwhelmed by real evidence.

Is warming good or bad?
Are we warming to the temperature we are suppose to be at or away from it? Before we decide policy we need to determine which direction we are suppose to be moving in.

Anyway, I'm predicting warming for the month of August and then cooling for about 6 months.

Yesterday NYC 76 degrees, Mexico City 70 degrees. My question is can the UN destribute the carbon taxes and future manufacturing plants so we can get the warming where we need it.

for Stan
Stan writes: "But apart from the strange economics, the whole theory of man-made climate change is silly. Hasn’t anyone noticed that temperature changes precede changes in CO2 levels by several hundred years?"

First and foremost, I think laypersons like most of the folks in this discussion, should stop trying to do science for the scientists.

I have a college degree but it's in engineering, not science. I'm not even going to TRY to second-guess scientific opinion on this entire subject--it requires far too detailed an understanding of the science. I would need the equivalent of a Ph.D. in geology or climatology to have the right to say whether this or that scientific theory is more or less plausible.

We can only be guided by what the scientific consensus is, as published in refereed scientific journals. And while the theory of man-made global warming is not yet 100% conclusively proven, there is plenty of evidence there.

It is therefore dangerous for conservatives with NO SCIENTIFIC BACKGROUND in those scientific disciplines, to happily cherry-pick just those pieces of negative evidence that will tend to support their political and economic conclusions, while ignoring all the other evidence.

As an engineer, I am appalled by such politicization of the sciences. It is an abomination to adopt a scientific THEORY (evolution must be false, global warming must be a myth) entirely for political and economic reasons (you just don't like its moral or economic consequences).

living in denial is dangerous
To all conservatives who simply refuse to believe that man-made factors are driving up global warming--what happens if you're wrong??? What are the political consequences to your credibility?

Remember how the liberals became discredited by their fatuous statements about Soviet Communism--it wasn't so bad, it wasn't so threatening, and any way there wasn't anything we can do about it.

They were proven wrong--decisively wrong--by Reagan and the end of the Cold War, and we have called them out on it repeatedly ever since.

Note also that the military always has contingency plans, even for unlikely scenarios (like war with China even though it's not coming any time this summer).

So even if you don't believe that man-made global warming is a major problem, at least HEDGE YOUR BETS in case the evidence proves so overwhelming that you end up being decisively proven wrong. Devise a plan for how YOU would address the problem, IF you were finally confronted by sufficiently conclusive evidence that you became convinced. (What evidence WOULD have to be discovered to finally convince you?)

Otherwise you're going to end up like the young-earth creationists, staunchly refusing to accept the 4.6 billion year age of the Earth and holding yourselves up to public ridicule.

Because political conservatism has already done that once, by this bizarre flirtation with creationism. Let me disabuse you of that notion: You're NOT going to ever refute the theory of evolution at this point--there's just too much evidence for it. You can keep chasing after alleged flaws and force those issues to be re-examined, but the chance you will ever find a "gotcha" that will be a lasting counterexample to the whole theory is nil.

Those who cling to other beliefs and hope that someday, someday, evolution will be overturned, are now considered crackpots by most citizens with a college education.

And if you keep claiming man-made global warming is a myth, and then the scientific community decides there's more than enough evidence that it's real, you'll be considered a bunch of crackpots again, and won't be involved in proposing any solutions.

And you won't like the solutions that liberals come up with.


STATS
STATISTICS and other LIES
Many temp. stations had been closed in the Siberia region of former USSR, SO THE AVERAGE TEMP without adjustment HAD to go up...and libs are known for manipulationg/not adjusting honestly the data (too cold there? Drop that reading!).

Some stations are close to garbage-burning sites (it was on the news a few months ago), which creates microclimat with no statistical value.

10,000 years ago temps were ANYBODY's GUESS..

AND in every car or house the temp vary by at least 10 degrees, depending on the area - by the window, near the air vent, near hot stove, near AC in the window, measured during summer, winter, etc.

ASK 1,000,000 PPOPLE TO GET EARTH TEMP AT, SAY, 10 OR 1,000 POINTS - AND YOU WILL GET 1,000,000
RESULTS.



I fail to see
I fail to see how changing what is taxed (while collecting the same total amount) will lower the cost to the employer, unless you expect everyone to settle for a lower standard of living.

But apart from the strange economics, the whole theory of man-made climate change is silly. Hasn’t anyone noticed that temperature changes precede changes in CO2 levels by several hundred years? When global temperatures fall, a few hundred years later CO2 levels fall. When temperatures rise, a few hundred years later CO2 levels rise. Global temperatures do follow changes in solar output (as do temperatures of every other object in the solar system that we have measured). Using Algore’s logic, cancer causes cigarette smoking.

Since nothing these people propose will have the slightest effect on global temperatures, they will have to keep increasing government control over every aspect of our lives and keep increasing taxes to “save the planet”.

Global Warming and Lying Liberals
Don't give any credit to the Gorenuts for truth. I am a biologist and have looked into the global warming data. There is no evidence man is causing global warming through carbon emissions. In fact, carbon dioxide is less than 1% of the total gases in the atmosphere and its effect is overwhelmed by water vapor as a greenhouse gas, which is over 95% of the greenhouse gas present. Without the greenhouse effect caused mostly by water vapor the Earth would be unihabitable.

Sun activity is the likely cause of warming if it is actually occurring, which is unclear from the data. The temperature data the global warming alarmists are using is all put into computer models, some of which have been shown to be frauds. Michael Crichton has shown the hockey stick curve they have been using to bash us is a result of a model that results in the shape no matter what data is put in.

The reason the left won't look at water vapor is simply man has no effect on it. The attempt to use Venus as a boogey man is ridiculous because Venus has no water. The science for man-made global warming is about as nonsensical as creation science. At least the creationuts have not been able to reduce our cars to the size of toys or tax us. Global warming is an attempt to impose taxation on an overtaxed America and reduce us to third world status. It is the same communist attitude the left has used to create poverty: "You are too rich, we are taking your money and pretending to fight poverty while we fly around in jets and ignore the fact we are in a war for survival."

Have you noticed that the failed programs of the left which have stolen 11 trillion dollars to fight poverty over the last forty years have not reduced poverty? The tactic is simple. They devise a program that fails because it is impractical, then ask for more money to make the program bigger. The next program also fails, so more money is required and so on. It is a nice racket.

One Question...

"However, if the carbon tax increase were offset, dollar for dollar, with an across the board marginal income tax reduction, many of the adverse impacts from the carbon tax increase would be mitigated. A marginal tax rate cut—ideally to a flat rate with strong taxpayer protections against future tax increases—has two types of effects. Because the decrease in marginal tax rates lowers the cost to the employer in the form of lower wages paid, firms will employ more workers. On the supply side, a reduction in marginal tax rates raises net wages received."

So companies can lower wages, and employees will get more wages?? I'm confused. Maybe some of you smart elitist college edjumacated types can explain this one to me. Sounds to me like having your cake and eating it too, but maybe i'm just one of them thar rednecks wat don't understand you colleg types. i am in the military after all.

Global Warming Caused by Man ?
Dr. Winegarden, your essay makes three very obvious and unproven assumptions.

1: Atmospheric global warming is real.
2: This warming has been and is being cauased by the actvitivities of mankind. Chiefly by those of us who live in the United States and the rest of the industrialized world.
3: Global warming is bad.

I being a self taught and higly intelligent layman am not convinced that the Earth's atmosphere is warming. While average SURFACE temperatures in some parts of the world are rising other areas seem to bo cooling. Also there are huge gaps in the record as temperature measuring equipment in many parts of the world are unreliable or nonexistant.

The there is also evidence that the surface temperatures on the outer planets of our solar system may be increasing. If this is the case the the warming that we maybe experiencing is being caused from some other source. The most likely being our sun. Of course the universe being what it is, there could even be some more unlikely souce for the extra energy falling on the planets.

Our earth is not a static closed system. It has been through many warming and cooling periods throughout its entire existance. Mankind has recorded many climate changes in just the few thousand years of our recorded history.

To say that we can affect our planet's climate or even that we should pay in any way to attempt to do so is ridiculus.

KCDillon

True GW
Yes it's happening the world is getting warmer... and I know why...

Insects release more CO2 "pollution" into our atmosphere than all man made activities combined,,, Its not even close....

So lets look at insect levels to determine if more or less of them would produce more or less pollution...

Guess what DDT is the culprit... the insect killer DDT (specializes in stopping malaria, probably why liberals stopped it's use) that was banned in the US in the 1970's and in most the world thereafter has resulted in a big rise in insect #'s,,,

We now have a better theory on Co2 pollution rising (than the current one of manmade crap) and the reason for it..

Save the world,,, use DDT...
Now where is Al Gore when we need him?

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