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Saturday, March 10, 2007
Wayne Winegarden :: Townhall.com Columnist
CSR and Global Warming Economics
by Wayne Winegarden
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Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


Well, either you're closing your eyes

To a situation you do now wish to acknowledge

Or you are not aware of the caliber of disaster indicated…

While Harold was talking about the perils of a pool table in River City, today the “Music Man” would be talking about the perils of global warming. In fact, these lines could easily appear in the musical sequel to “An Inconvenient Truth” – sung by Al Gore of course. But just as Harold was a con-artist, the global warming activists have their own cure-all scheme that warrants the same skepticism given to the snake-oil salesmen of old.

The global warming scam has nothing to do with the science behind global warming. It has everything to do with the economics. Oil, coal, or any other energy source is an economic good that is no different than any other product or service. Issues of supply and demand dictate the quantity and price of current energy sources as well as the incentive for suppliers to create viable energy alternatives.

Then there are externalities. An externality is defined as a cost (or benefit) that is imposed on somebody that is neither the seller nor the purchaser of the product or service in question. The pollution and greenhouse gases emitted from energy use are negative externalities. However, the economic growth, wealth, and poverty reduction that individuals leverage from energy use are a positive externality. Perhaps more importantly, economic growth and pollution are inter-twined in complex ways. There is ample evidence from recent history that greater economic growth, past a certain threshold, can actually reduce the amount of pollution a society creates.

Appropriately incorporating these externalities is no simple affair. Blind demands to force nations and companies to exclusively focus on reducing the negative externality, while politically popular, may cause more harm than good.

Despite these complexities, the business leaders embracing the Corporate Social Responsibility (CSR) movement are getting into the act. Several of these executives are supporting global warming regulations through a movement called the U.S. Climate Action Partnership (USCAP). The USCAP alliance boasts major corporate members such as GE, Alcoa, BP, Caterpillar, DuPont, Lehman Brothers, and PG&E. One of the basic principles of the alliance is to encourage the U.S. to impose a carbon emissions cap and trade scheme.

Because major corporations, under the guise of CSR, have joined the alliance, there is a false impression that the free-market system has given the new regulatory regime its blessings and that the economic costs from capping carbon emissions is small. According to the USCAP report, “In our view, the climate change challenge, like other challenges our country has confronted in the past, will create more economic opportunities than risks for the U.S. economy.”

Espousing such “cost-free” rhetoric is the essence of the global warming scam. Perhaps man-made global warming requires drastic action. Nevertheless, these actions will not come without economic consequences and attempting to sell the regulations as if they “create more economic opportunities” than costs is disingenuous.

Energy use and economic growth go hand-in-hand. Carbon-based energy still supplies the vast majority of our current energy needs. Restricting our energy options by meaningfully capping the amount of carbon the U.S. emits will raise the country’s energy costs, at least in the short-run. As the recent rise of oil to over $80 a barrel attested, higher energy costs impose a net cost on our economy, and can be particularly painful for poorer families that are already having a difficult time making ends meet.

The Carbon emission regime could also backfire. Even if the U.S. implemented a carbon cap, worldwide carbon emissions may not be reduced; instead, the likely outcome is that carbon emissions will be simply redistributed from the U.S. to places like China and India. The economic costs borne by U.S. residents will consequently be borne in vain as there would be no net positive impact on the environment from the carbon cap policy. In fact, to the extent that the industrialized countries use cleaner technologies, the regulations could actually have a net negative impact on the environment.

In order to ensure that there is not a net negative impact on the environment, it will be necessary to impose carbon emission caps on the developing countries as well. Such a policy endangers the economic growth these countries so desperately need. China is a classic example. China’s economy has been growing at a furious pace. As a result, millions of people have been lifted out of desperate poverty. Capping emissions in China jeopardizes its economic growth and with it the country’s ability to further reduce the extreme poverty that still afflicts far too many of its citizens.

These trade-offs must be a central part of any global warming debate. Simply advocating for emissions caps while ignoring the real economic costs the caps create will not lead to sustainable environmental or economic policies. CSR is dangerous in this realm because it provides a credibly-viewed messenger that we can cap our carbon emissions without cost. We cannot.

Instead, we must ask some fundamental questions about our environmental policies: What is the problem? What are we asking for? Does this make sense? What are the implications? Are the tradeoffs worthwhile? With such basic questions answered, we will be empowered to intelligently design environmental and economic policies that do the most good. However, just as the typical “snake oil” customer discovered, if we don’t ask the right questions upfront, then we shouldn’t be surprised when the product fails to deliver on its promises.

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About The Author

Wayne H. Winegarden Ph.D. is a partner in the firm Arduin, Laffer & Moore Econometrics.

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Global whamming...
If greenhouse gases are mostly the result of mankind, then it pains me to say that somebody (a lot of somebodies actually) has to jump overboard. I volunteer those unctuous un-chic littles, those horrible harbingers of gloom and lackey lovers of doom; (envelop pleeze) Ta Da. "The Green Wienies!"
Greenies, think of all the unused energy you would be donating to your fellow carbon credit cretins. Like Al Gore the TVA's most ardent customer? And those Hollywood stars who simply must "keep up appearances my dear" and maintain their multiple mansions and personal 707's Oh... and Greenies, please dig a hole first (by hand of course) and leave money (or a carbon credit) to pay for someone to fill it up. Thank you. Thank you. Please...no applause.

bensblurbs
You forgot the scorched Earth policies in Russia and China where they burned everything so the enemy did not have shelter or even a blade of grass to eat.

Mt. Vesuvious had a real messy eruption during that time too.

Many oil tankers were burned and often the fuel raising to the surface from sinking ships would catch fire.

If man's pollution could cause AGW you would think that would do it. I don't see how mankind can make a bigger mess than that and Europe had the coldest winter on record. So cold it crippled Hitlers invasion of Russia.
So many storms it delayed the Normandy Invasion by grounding Allied Air Power.

I'm confused
Should we live Al SAYS we should live, like our aboriginal bretheren did, or should we do what Al DOES, which is live like we do now, only more so?

wanda gag
Why is it necessary that anyone do things the way you do it because it works for you? Even if your way is the right way for you, I should have the freedom to decide what I want to do without your interference or judgment.

Our system of government was based on the fact that we, you and I, are the government. The politicians can only represent our interests. The interests are divided up into different camps: the people (represented by the House of Representatives), and the states (represented by the Senate). The government is not there to "hamstring" the economy. It's there to consider the diverse requirements put on them from the factions they represent. The government was fashioned so that no singular issue took precedent over another, that no state had a greater say than the other, and that no person had a say over another. Once the diverse inputs are looked at, our representatives decide what is to the benefit of the country (decided by the ability to get a large enough vote on all fronts to get the agenda passed). if it does not have enough support, then it does not see the light of day.

Conservatives have not remained absent from the debate. You paint all conservatives with a wide brush. It would be better to say that some people have not been convinced, and that requires a better "sales pitch" from the proponents to get others to your side. You may in fact have a strong point, but calling the other side dismissive and obstructionist isn't the way to get them to see your point. I haven't conceded any ground to liberals or democrats. I just haven't been convinced yet.

I also don't believe I have to reframe the debate. I don't believe a debate is even necessary at this point, because I haven't been convinced there is even an issue yet. I accept your points about conservation of resources, responsibility, and stewardship. I don't need a lecture of principles. I want proof that your point is valid. I do spend less, use less, and make it last longer. I do that not because you think it's the right thing to do, I do it because I believe it's the right thing to do. But I do it on my terms. I shouldn't have to do it on your terms.

For example, I refuse to go out and buy a hybrid for the sake of owning a hybrid. I have a well-functioning car that meets the latest environmental requirements. I don't believe I should abandon a good car (of which I own, and use the money I would pay for a new car for things that I enjoy) just to say I own a hybrid. I turn out the lights, put my computer on hibernate, and turn off the TV when I am not using it. Not because you think it's right, or to conserve energy. I do it so I don't have a hefty gas and electric bill. The side benefit is that it conserves energy.

I do not purchase used clothes. I prefer to wear what I want to wear, work hard at my job to make a decent living, and don't want someone telling me to wear what someone else decided wasn't right for them. I don't believe that I waste because of that. That's my personal choice, of which someone else should not dare pass judgment on.

Generally speaking, I don't waste money on little plastic crap from China either. However, I do buy from virtually any country that exports to the United States, when and only when the product suits me, based on my individual needs, personal choices, and my lifestyle.

If you give me the freedom to decide what's best for me, I'll give you the freedom to decide what's best for you. The problem starts when someone demands they others see it their way. As one side pushes, the other side pushes back.

Some people see things through a financial lens, some people see things through a feelings lens, others see things through a practical lens. You are cordially invited to see the world through whatever lens you choose. If it helps, I prefer to see the world through the financial lens. It's my money, not yours, and you should not demand that I support anything that requires me to give up my money. You may ask, you may convince me that your point is valid. But if you try to take my money through any means other that through my free will, that is stealing (even under the guise of taxes).

voice of reason
The whole purpose of this paper is the economics of global warming. Everyone believes that the big bad corporations are these non-entities that live external to us (yes, even the hugely bad multi-nationals). Anyone who believes any of this needs to spend a bit more time reading Walter Williams and Thomas Sowell.

All corporations are in fact made up of individual people who are shareholders (unless you live in Venezuela, and then they are owned by Hugo Chavez). These shareholders are teachers, doctors, managers of retirement plans, mutual fund owners, and anyone else who cares to make an investment in a company.

A company that fails to bring home a profit will surely die. If 100% of profits are taxed, then shareholders will sell off their stock and buy another that will return a profit. Otherwise, a company that tanks will cause investors to lose 100% of their investment. The end result is as bad as the scam from Enron, in which the shareholders hold worthless paper.

If I have $10,000 available (that which I worked hard for, scrimped and saved, and otherwise didn't waste on fast cars, fast women, or drugs), I can choose to save it in a bank for a measly return of 5%. I can choose to spend it on fast cars or fast women, or I can put it together with 100 other people with $10,000 and we can open a business (we also sell a few shares to people who believe in our product). That $1,000,000 business will then begin to manufacture a product, which means that we get to employ people, which means that those people can use their paycheck to buy houses, cars, or they can use it to finance their retirement plans (to make everyone happy, our company can afford to pay well above the minimum wage, offer health care, and makes a generous payment into each employees 401k...but we still expect a 40 hour work week/52 weeks a year).

If this company doesn't make at least a return equal to or greater than what the shareholders can make somewhere else, they will quickly remove the money from our company, and invest it somewhere else (or spend it on fast cars and fast women).

I hate to break it to youmakemelaugh2 ( and the parrot of YMML2, rush2b1st, but it's not the public that keeps companies open, it's the owners. No profit, no investors, no company. No matter how many customers I have, if I don't have more positive cash flow that I have negative cash flow, I can't keep my doors open. If it costs me $1,000 an hour to operate my business, and I make $900 an hour, I will quickly shut down.

While pursuing my MBA, I noticed many of my fellow students had to take undergraduate pre-requisite economics courses that they steered away from when they got their BA degree. Either they didn't take them earlier (because they were too hard), or they got marginal passing grades. A good portion of undergraduate level degree holders (and quite a few graduate level) have no understanding of economics, and how it affects their daily lives.

If I told you that you had to install new light fixtures in your home to meet some global warming mandate, you would need to decide where the money would come from. Most Americans don't have stacks of cash laying around under their mattress. You would have to replace every lamp, light box, lamp post, and socket throughout your house. You can either borrow it (a loan or use VISA/MC), reduce spending in another area (the spouse isn't getting the new dress and you don't get your morning Starbucks double-choke-a-latte), or a combination of both. YMML2 doesn't get to buy the techie toys he likes so much.

Now, here's the clue....wait for it...a company has to do the same thing.

Most economic-challenged people can't comprehend this, and I base this on the comments made in these pages. Money does not come out of the "money wall," as my 4-year-old niece refers to the ATM. It also concerns me when posters like KYJurisDoctor say leave politics and economics out of it. You can't.

The two side of the GW debate won't come together because it's and all-or-none debate. Absolutely no one on either side is willing to meet in the middle. Each side has to give, and the politicians (the people who make the laws that decide) won't give a little either. It's also economic when scientists who have a financial stake in the matter (government grants) take sides. If they had to prove their points and make their case by seeking grants from non-government agencies, economics comes into play their too. Donators would have to decide whether they want to give their money to environmental groups or to those who do cancer research.

From a personal level (that level where I freely get to decide where my money goes), I am not convinced that the GW issue is as bad as some want to make it out to be, and I would prefer to place my money on a non-environmental company over an environmental company any day.

Use less, spend less, save more!
the issue of environmental conservation sits squarely on the battle line between government and liberty. From light bulbs to automobiles, government will gladly expand its regulatory reach even if the result is a hamstrung economy and curtailed individual freedoms. Yet conservatives have remained largely absent from this debate. Conservative voices have been dismissive and obstructionist at best and by pulling back from the environmental battle they have conceded the high ground to liberals and democrats.
Conservatives must reframe the environmental discussion by replacing liberal scare tactics with conservative principles such as responsibility and stewardship. Stewardship -- the idea that we need to take care of what we've been given -- simply makes sense. It makes dollars as well, for the simple reason that our economy is founded on natural resources, from tourism and manufacturing to real estate and agriculture.

I think the conservative approach should be spend less, use less, make it last longer. Hybrid cars may be a swell idea, but a conservative will simply inflate her tires and maintain her vehicle to run efficiently. I know that light bulbs have come along way and I may purchase a few more of the new fangled ones, but a conservative turns of the lights, computer, television, etc when they aren't using them. I love new clothes and I save money buying used ones. I could go on and on, but suffice to say if we simply apply some greatest generation common sense, use less, spend less, save more, we will leave the world a better place for our children and maybe teach them a thing or two about responsibility along the way. The downsize is we may slow down the consumer economy a little and import a little less plastic crap from China...I guess they'll have to go back to bicycles because they'll never find another market like this one.

AGW
I will make absolutely no effort to curtail co2 emissions now or in the future.

Why would I want to deprive plants of airborne nutrients?


Attempting prevention in this case sounds pretty stupid if global warming is factual. adaptation is the rational approach.

Bensblurbs
The current term is Global Climate Change - that way cooling, warming, drying, deluges, typhoons, hurricanes, whatever, we're responsible and WE"RE ALL GOING TO DIE!

See you on the other side.

Persuasion, please
I'll believe that we cause global warming when someone explains to me how we caused global cooling from the 1940s to the 1970s.

My puzzlement is why the earth cooled rather than warmed up after World War II, following a long period when mankind launched terrible bombs and fired cannons on an unprecedented scale and meanwhile all our carbon burning industries produced flat-out.
The earth apparently ignored those mighty influences and kept getting cooler until the scientific "consensus" warned that we were embarking on a new ice age.



Back to the subject , CSR
I couldn't say it any better than this.....

1)Companies SHOULD integrate sustainable development into their business activities. Brake it you fix-it.

2)It has been proven to work at reasonable cost.

3)If anything profits remain strong BECAUSE of their involvement in CSR as the public embraces the companies commitment to do the right thing.

http://www.wbcsd.org/templates/TemplateWBCSD5/layout.asp?type=p&MenuId=ODY&doOpen=1&ClickMenu=RightMenu
http://www.contingencyanalysis.com/home/papers/suffrage.pdf
http://www.globalinsight.com/ProductsServices/ProductDetail1124.htm
http://www.csrwire.com/



Things that make you go.. ...Hum
Why is it when you get your hat handed to you, there is always the same line of crap? Attacking someones IQ. When from what I've read, you Lynne and eon could use a boost in that department.
YMML2 is loud, but so are you. He did make you both look foolish!

$1.50 each for fluorescents
Come-on now, there are Sam's Clubs everyplace. I will be checking them out. You would be silly not to at least try them for that price.
Plus eon, you could always get them on-line. So your silly "no Sam's Club around here" makes no sense at all. I am shocked YMML2 didn't call you out on that.

youmakemelaugh2
1. I wasn't disputing you on LEDs. You made the point about fluorescents- which you then proceeded to disprove with your own links.

2. If you "don't pay more than $2 each for fluorescents" - then why are you so entranced by LED lights? It seems to me that if you prefer them, you'd use them. Or do they cost more than the fluorescents?

3. Sorry, no Sam's Club around here. We have actual retail stores with staff who know what they're doing, and actually get promoted based on superior job performance. (And without unions, for the most part, at that- just preempting your next irrelevant comment, there.)

4. From the frequency of vituperation and infrequency of connected logic in your posts, I am forced to conclude that you are approximately 17. Try to keep a civil tongue in your head. And while you're at it, look up the definition of "spew" in Webster's Unabridged Dictionary.

You'll find it more closely resembles what you do, than it does my postings, Lynne's, or those of the other adults here.


cheers

eon

youmakemelaugh2
Nice links, specifically the second one. It shows that;

1. Fluorescent bulbs are consistently either (a) too tall to fit inside the globe/bail/etc. of a typical domestic lamp or light fixture, or (b) are of insufficient luminosity to match the incandescent bulb they use 25% of the power of. And

2. Their MSRP is substantially higher than the figure I quoted, based on real-world experience at my local outlet store. I'll let others draw their own conclusion as to reasons why. (Hint; in retail, how do you clear out inventory that isn't moving?)

You've proved my main points without my having to lift a finger to do so myself. Many thanks.

Did you actually read the material at those sites, or did you just Google for the links?


cheers

eon

youmakemelaugh2
A couple of real-world notes on your fluorescent bulbs.

1. Most light fixtures and even desk or table type lamps cannot accommodate fluorescent bulbs of comparable luminosity to the incandescent bulbs they were designed for. While the sockets are identical, the fluorescent "coil" is invariably greater in height than the incandescent bulb. Hence, one must either (a) use a fluorescent of lower luminosity than an incandescent (i.e., use a 40-watt equivalent of 600 lumen to replace the nearest dimensionally-comparable incandescent, a 75-watt generating 950 lumen), or stick to the incandescent. The latter course is less likely to cause eyestrain over time.

2. As fluorescent bulbs age, the ballast weakens. As a result, they take longer to power up to full output with time. The ultra-small ballasts of the present generation of "domestic" fluorescents begin to show time lag within as little as 30-40 hours of use on a 40-50% duty cycle (i.e., being "on' about 10-12 hours out of 24). Or IOW, within about ten days they take about 30 seconds to "warm up" , and it gets worse from there. Although they haven't been around long enough to tell, I suspect that the load-cycle based failure rate (time before burnout) of these "mini-ballasts" will be faster than those in full-sized fluorescents as well, dropping the practical lifespan of the small fluorescents to that of the incandescent bulbs they are supposed to replace. The difference is that you can buy a four-pack of 75-watt incandescents for about $1.75; a single fluorescent of comparable output costs about $7.

While fluorescent bulbs are hip, trendy, and show how much you care about Holy Mother Gaia, in terms of real-world use the "fluorescent light bulb for home use" is an obviously immature technology that isn't ready for prime-time. While newer homes (and light fixtures) can certainly be designed around their use, this is no help for people who live in homes dating back more than about ten years. Which accounts for roughly 80% of the homeowners in the United States.

Truth in advertising moment. I own my own home. It was built in 1905. The light fixtures date to the mid-1980s. And exactly none of them will accommodate a fluorescent bulb with more output than a 40-watt incandescent equivalent. I know this because I tried them when I first bought the place. Fortunately for my wallet, the store was quite nice about taking them back and refunding my money.

I find myself wondering if the designers of these widgets ever actually looked at an actual light fixture before they froze their design parameters.

My SWAG would be, "no".


cheers

eon

inkling_revival writes
"The point was NOT, of course, `there's no point in discussing the science.' It was `the economic discussion is not really based on the scientific discussion, it's got a different source.' "

I don't agree. If you dismiss the science as Winegarden did, the economic discussion is pointless. If you accept the science, then the economic discussion should be a cost/benefit analysis. Winegarden almost says as much. The problem with his analysis is that he sees only costs and no benefits. In other words, it's just another thoughtless permutation of the mantras of GW denial.

wanda gag
FYI
We have much natural mercury in our rivers from cinabar.
Mercury levels in rivers & lakes is greatly reduced where old tires are used to protect docks and reinforce leveys.
The old tires absorb mercury.
Old tires are at present a disposal problem.

Another thing that would interest a conservationist.
Marble stone slowly reduces the acid content of lakes. No heat involved, it will not harm fish or plants.
There are several other stones that will do the same thing. A geologist would know what they are.

Fishing, Mercury and coal fired plants
The submitters assert that the number of fish consumption advisories for mercury has risen from 899 to 2347 since 1993, and that, according to the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, 35% of the total lake acres and 24% of the river miles in the U.S. are now under fish consumption advisories. They contend that the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (USEPA) "is allowing both nonpoint and point source discharges of mercury from coal-fired power plants that are contributing to a steady degradation of the nation's waterways as evidenced by increasing mercury fish advisories and the effective withdrawal of existing uses (fishable) of many of these water bodies."


as a conservationist I'm trouble the debate over global warming gets more attention than far more pressing pollution problems. What will the effects be of a billion Chinese living American lifestyles. What will they use to heat and light the 2500 square foot homes they will be building and living in. What will the the pollution, acid rain mercury emissions, etc. from the fifty some coal fired power plants they are building do to the forests and lakes in North America. The are already giving up their bicycles for cars and a billion more people in India aren't far behind. If you think all that exhaust doesn't circulate on global winds...Time to learn to conserve energy, save money and do the right thing so my grandchildren can enjoy Walleye as much as I do.

It is about economics
GW is just another scam by libs to put more of my dollars into their pockets. A couple of questons- How do the scientists sudying the phenomenon differentiate CO2 of human origin from CO2 of other origins and how is the former more inimical to the atmosphere than the latter?

youmakemelaugh2
But, if you had reduced the size of your house by a third AND changed all your bulbs, your bill would have been even lower.

We can compare bulb count at your convenience.

Mike from Tucson
You can't use candles because they emit CARBON!
You can't use horses because they flatulate just like cows do.
Maybe you can catch some fireflies in a jar and ride a scooter to commute as long as you don't flatulate?

AFTER THE GREEN TAX, British scientists NOW say that "Greenhouse Gas" has nothing to do with Global Warming.

Isn't it strange how the percentages of various greenhouse gasses directly match the Earth's surface? Like Greenhouse gas is a result of surface exposed to the sun rather that a cause of anything?

Scratch the candles too...
because the emit CO2 when they burn. The smart investment is in a nice dry cave in a very mild climate.

Light bulbs are the problem!
The Europeans have been told they must begin straining to read in a few years because incandescent light bulbs will be verboten and the dimmer but energy conserving fluorescent bulbs will be mandated. Hmmm. Seems like we are doing something like that over here with our toilets; smaller tanks. Yup, sure does conserve water all right. Except for those 99.9999% of the American people who flush twice or three or four times; even when not needed, just out of habit. The Brits, French et al aren't smart enough to just use more fluorescent bulbs to get more light though, uh huh.
The mid-east extremists would like us all to pick up and move to the seventh century where we could stone each other to our hearts content. Al Gore and his counterparts here and in Europe seem to have the same idea, especially the 'getting stoned.' part.
Maybe it's time to invest in buggy whips and candles. Well... scratch the whips.

KYJD
I agree regarding leaving politics out of the discussion. We leave economics and technology out of the discussion at our peril, since the solutions are neither free nor simple.

The big question is: "Who decides what is "right"?"

Voluntary Education Programs
To reduce carbon footprint:
- insulate and weatherstrip
- set thermostat lower in winter
- set thermostat higher in summer
- turn lights off when not needed
- drive less
- install more efficient appliances
- buy small hybrid vehicle(s)
- move to smaller house, nearer work
- install solar collectors
- plant trees
Program over.

This ain't rocket surgery or brain science!

Dash
>"Otherwise do nothing at the GOVERNMENTAL level beyond funding basic research into what is happening."<

Agree. It makes no sense to handicap our economy if there isn't a global consensus.

Still, voluntary educational programs as to how to reduce our carbon footprints would seem to be in order. Maybe Al Gore should be the poster child for what not to do. Ironic?


Leave politics out of it!
We should endeavor to do what's right on global warming and leave politics and economics out of it!


Visit: (OsiSpeaks.com) or (OsiSpeaks.org).

Lg
"OK, let's start the conversation by ignoring the evidence."

Ok, let's start the rebuttal by proving we didn't even understand the article. Nice going, LG.

The point was NOT, of course, "there's no point in discussing the science." It was "the economic discussion is not really based on the scientific discussion, it's got a different source."

Learn to read, would you?

Carbon.org
In trying to find out how much carbon dioxide a tree absorbs I ran across this winner of a site. You can actually purchase trees at a going rate of $49.00 each to offset your carbon footprint. They recommend that each New Zealander purchase two to three per year to offset thier foot print. (I assume that Americans would have to get more). As each tree gets to be 50 years old and therefore "mature", they will sell it again to lumber companies who will "lock" up the carbon forever in "housing".

I can not believe that people are stupid enough to buy into this kind of outright fraud. But then again, libtards will believe anything.

http://www.carbon.org.nz/abode/getCategoryProducts.do/_siteId__557/_categoryId__557/method__getCategoryProducts/resultSetStart__0/resultSetCount__10/orderByAttribute__Position

Lars C. Smith a
liberal enviromental economist who lives in Fwance calls Kyoto carbon schemes a fraud.

http://conservationfinance.wordpress.com/2006/10/20/ten-facts-about-carbon-sinks

Listen up Albore, even your own libtards are calling your company a fraud.

clarification
"Otherwise do nothing at the GOVERNMENTAL level beyond funding basic research into what is happening."

To LGM and others: There MAY be a correlation AT PRESENT to apparent rises in both CO2 and temps. THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT INCREAES IN CO2 (if any) ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR INCREASES IN TEMPERATURES. The proponents of AngloAmerican Global Climate Change are taking a perceived correlation and trying to state there is a certain causal relationship when there is no such causal relationship established (other than in the models of the proponents).

lgm
i've said this before, earlier in this thread even:

Until we KNOW with more certainty what is actually happening, we need to spend 'string free' money on RESEARCH.

Otherwise do nothing.

To LGM
Fine, it's cheap. I have some carbon credits for sale. How many would you like to buy?

LG
First, it is not possible to STOP AGW by conserving. Second, America alone cannot conquer AGW, especially if the Chinese and Indians are firing up coal plants faster than we can shutter ours.

Pricing externalities
"The global warming scam has nothing to do with the science behind global warming." -- OK, let's start the conversation by ignoring the evidence.

"It has everything to do with the economics." -- The "liberal scientists only want to bring America down" conspiricy theory. Just what you need to establish credibility.

"Oil, coal, or any other energy source is an economic good that is no different than any other product or service." -- Except for . . .

"Then there are externalities." -- There's the rub. Whether it is cheaper to suffer the heat and drought of global warming, or by conserving, to stop them?

Time and time again, the cost of avoiding externalities has been far less than predicted. Cities have cleaner air, cars get better milage for a price that in retrospect seems worth paying. I believe America is a great and innovative country. We can conquer global warming just as we created the internet, reduced cancer deaths by half, etc.

The 2% Solution
The combustion of fossil fuels contributes ~2% of total annual global CO2 emissions. Human respiration, domestic animal respiration and other non-fossil emissions represent another ~1%. So, about 3% of total global CO2 emissions are the result of human activity.

The bigger question for the AGW folks is: "To what extent must the CO2 emissions related to human activity be reduced to mitigate the impending catastrophe you envision?" Be honest now.

Dash42
> I have never suggested, much less stated that there is not some impact by human activity; the question is 'how much'?<

Which is, of course, the correct concept. But many conservatives act like liberals and state, there is no man-made global warming - end of discussion.

The real problem we face, IMO, in an economic sense, is the reality of Peak Oil and how it will effect not only economic growth, but economic sustenance in the not too distant future. I would recommend researching Roscoe Bartlett R-Md as a conservative who has addressed this issue in Congress. After all, global warming as caused by fossil fuels is a moot point when the availability of fossil fuels becomes muted.


Snake Oil
Back when one had to demonstrate the ability to read and was actually tested on one's ability to comprehend subject matter........

It used to be taught in public schools that in the middle ages, several Popes sold "Indulgences" so the wealthy could pay for their sins and go to Heaven regardless of their behavior here on Earth. This practice has long been discredited.

Al Gore now purchases "carbon credits" (from a company he owns) so his carbon footprint (aka SIN) is "zero".

To paraphrase Led Zepellin, he is buying the stairway to heaven.

DEATH THREATS! --> We are in danger!
http://www.heritage.org/Press/Commentary/ed030807a.cfm?RenderForPrint=1

So now you see why so many scientists agree with AGW!

Excellent essay & responses
This is an excellent essay. The sooner the public in the USA begins to hear and participate in the economic debate, more importantly the "mandated goals" and the timelines, the better. Still talking to the non-economist about externalities will put most to sleep.

It would be better to use examples.

First each of us, accept Al Gore and friends, would be required to reduce our carbon dioxide emissions by, for example 25%. Appreciate that the demand is much more and quicker. The quicker we strive to meet the goals the more expensive. So to reduce your carbon dioxide you fundamentally need to reduce your consumption of almost everything by 25%, from eating to heating/cooling, driving, and active leisure time. It can be done but it includes far more than that generally listed on the 'estimate your carbon footprint websites'.

Much of the carbon dioxide produced to provide us with the American lifestyle produces a net increase in carbon dioxide. Most foods, such as commercially grown and packaged vegetables and meat will require a net increase in carbon dioxide produced. Some things are relatively easy but still cost money and also require lifestyle changes, e.g., replacing all incadecent lighting with fluorescent lighting. [Note that most fluorescent lighting requires the use of mercury.]

Another good example is the production of a new ton of steel. It requires energy to mine the ore. Energy to transport the ore. Energy to mine and transport the coal. Even if coal is not used for the heating source to produce energy it is still required to produce coke which produces carbon dioxide. Then there is energy to turn the ore into iron; energy to turn the iron and coke into steel; energy to turn the steel into a modern steel alloy. Then energy to transport the new steel to manufacturing from manufacturing to wholesale, wholesale to retail. Now to most that stop and think these steps are relatively obvious though the production of carbon dioxide often not but we each need to stop and think and get our friends and neighbors to stop and think of such examples and similar examples.

If we are to continue down this road, and it appears we are regardless of the real science, then our first goals should be prioritized to lower our overall dependence on foreign energy supplies. If we do we will improve our national security posture.

Yet the organized environmentalists have us in a trap. They have long opposed nuclear power. That is why Green Peace started. They ally themselves regularly with rich, heavy carbon dioxide producing rich NIMBYs, like the Kennedies, to prohibit the proper placement of wind farms close to areas of high energy consumption. There are even environmental groups arguing against hydrogen as an energy transfer method. Producing hydrogen during non-peak hours from solar, wind, atomic, or even fossil fuels could improve efficiency.

One should review the board of directors of the many global warming environmental sites and note the cross fertilization between and among boards and hired executive. If you can, look at the primary sources of funding and if it is a named foundation, where that foundation gets money. Of course if you didn't know many not-for-profit organizations received "porkchopped" federal grants to then preach to you and me their version of the world.

UNM - I'll leave
the biting comment re: your seeming position on AngloAmerican Caused Climate change aside for the moment - on the not unreasonable supposition that I might be wrong.

As to this:
"There is no historical evidence that can be applied to the modern world."

We'll set this aside for another day as taken to its illogical extreme it could be taken to mean that history has no meaning.

As to this: "There has never been 6 billion people on the planet using fossil fuels at an unprecedented rate."

Fair enough - I have never suggested, much less stated that there is not some impact by human activity; the question is 'how much'?

To hear the AGW evangilists (AlGore and others), it is ALL OUR FAULT AND WE MUST CHANGE NOW!!!!!!! We don't care that any changes we make might not work, we only have (insert your favorite calamitous number here) years left before we're all doomed!

The truth of the matter is what I have repeatedly stated: We do NOT know what is happening with any degree of certainty, much less what our contribution (if any) might be. This is a case of doing nothing is the best option. Spend more on research on what is happening, without stipulations from the sponsors, and we'll soon enough know.

Corrected post
I failed to proof-read:

Corrected post follows.

voice_of_reason,

You asked for feedback.

1. Re: "The Environment (which has now replaced the Flag, Motherhood and Apple Pie in its significance to many Americans) is ONE area in which few people (Right or Left) can disagree that some intervention is required."

Only the left has replaced the flag with environmentalism. That's why they continue to prohibit us from drilling for oil in the Gulf of Mexico even the Chinese and Venezuelans are doing it. That's why they continue to moan about Bush dumping Kyoto even though it exempts China and India. And it's one of several reasons why we conservatives don't buy into AGW theory; why we think it is an anti-capitalist political issue and not a genuine scientific concern.

2. As you promised early in your post, you wandered way past the issue of global warming and into the arena of "pollution". In so doing you inadvertently joined the "scam[mers]". AGW and pollution are two completely separate items. Pollution is caused by the presence of non-gaseous elements and/or compounds in the atmosphere, such as sulphur, carbon, and lead. AGW theory (and it is only a theory) claims that slight increases in the amount of a gas, CO2 (that's "carbon dioxide" for those of you who recently attended public school) in the atmosphere is causing the atmosphere to retain more of the sun's heat than before, and if the progression is not stopped the earth will eventually become uninhabitable.

The left repeatedly and continually falls back on the false intermingling of AGW and pollution to create the false persuasion that, as you put it, "few people (Right or Left) can disagree that some intervention is required."

I object to this tactic in general and to your use of the word "can" in particular. I interpret it as another attempt by an environmentalist to stifle honest debate (whether you intended it that way or not).

Winegarten, an economist, starts out well but ends badly. He points out that, in his opinion, AGW is a scam. But instead of recommending that we tar and feather the scammers, as nearly happened to Harold Hill in "The Music Man", or even demanding that we "get the credentials" of the scammers, as the Mayor of River City kept demanding, he ends by suggesting we ask the right questions before falling for the scam.

He also failed to mention that Al Gore doesn't know anything more about the AGW science he is trying to sell us than the mythical professor Hill did about music.



Kyoto Protocols
Between the lines, the protocols say:
"Destroy America by destroying her industrial might and economic prowess. All hail to the third world countries of China and India."

America will get back on the correct path by shipping all the environmentalists to China and India and forcing them to reside there.

Feedback
voice_of_reason,

You asked for feedback.

1. Re: "The Environment (which has now replaced the Flag, Motherhood and Apple Pie in its significance to many Americans) is ONE area in which few people (Right or Left) can disagree that some intervention is required."

Only the left has replaced the flag with environmentalism. That's why they continue to prohibit us from drilling for oil in the Gulf of Mexico even the Chines and Venezuelans are doing it. That's why they continue to moan about Bush dumpig Kyoto even though it exempts China and India. And it's one of several reasons why we conservatives don't buy into AGW theory; why we think it is aa anti-capitalist political issue and not a genuine scientific concern.

2. As you promised early in your post, you wandered way past the issue of global warming and into the arena of "pollution". In so doing you inadvertently joined the "scam[mers]". AGW and pollution are two completely separate items. Pollution is caused by the presence of non-gaseous elements and/or compounds in the atmosphere, such as sulphur, carbon, and lead. AGW theory (and it is only a theory) claims that slight increases in the amount of a gas, CO2 (that's "carbon dioxide" for those of you who recently attended public school) in the atmosphere is causing the atmosphere to retain more of the sun's heat than before, and if the progression is not stopped the earth will eventually become uninhabitable.

The left repeatedly and continually falls back on the false intermingling of AGW and pollution to create the false persuasion that, as you put it, "few people (Right or Left) can disagree that some intervention is required."

I object to this tactic in generally and to your use of the word "can" in particular. I interpret it as another attempt by an environmentalist to stifle honest debate (whether you intended it that way or not).

Winegarten, an economist, starts out well but ends badly. He points out that, in his opinion, AGW is a scam. But instead of recommending that we tar and feather the scammers, as nearly happened to Harold Hill in "The Music Man", or even demanding that we "get the credentials" of the scammers, as the Mayor of River City kept demanding, he ends by suggesting we ask the right questions before falling for the scam.

He also failed to mention that Al Gore doesn't know anything more about the AGW science he is trying to sell us than the mythical professor Hill did about music.

Historical evidence
>Despite all the historical evidence to the contrary<

There is no historical evidence that can be applied to the modern world. There has never been 6 billion people on the planet using fossil fuels at an unprecedented rate.

So there is no historical evidence to the contrary of anything.

wanda...
There is more than enough water for any purpose you could want or imagine. Have you ever heard of the various oceans? What you meant to say is that there is often a local shortage of water fit for the desired purpose, be that agriculture or human consumption. But that is just an economic problem. If more potable water is needed in the desert, then the price will rise. The rise in price will encourage those who are using the water to conserve more and consider alternatives. It also will encourage others to bring water to the desert or to clean up any water that exists, but isn't potable. BTW, how exactly were coal fired power plants putting mercury into the environment? Coal has many things in it, but I didn't think Hg was one of the things commonly found in coal or coal ash. Just curious.

To baseballdoc
That's the ticket; I think I'll go out and cut down some trees and burn them.

Hey, then I can plant more aqnd charge Carbon Credits off on them!

CSR = Coporate Scam Reflex

.....Wayne ...

.....If a company signs on to CSR than you can bet your bippy that they have figured out a way to profit from it ...

.....personally I think that increasing CO2 levels is beneficial to the planet ...plants thrive and multiply thus using more CO2 and generating more oxygen which benefits man ...so logically the big CO2 emitters should be encouraged ...not penalized ...

.....I own three cars ...a Lincoln Town Car ...a Jeep Landrover ...and a Dodge Caravan SUV ...gas guzzlers all and I drive them to the max ...I believe I am doing my part to benefit the planet by encouraging economic progress and increasing greenhouse gas for the Earth's Flora .....COLOSSUS

voice o' reason...
The solution you are looking for requires serious reform of our judicial and tort system. When somebody spews pollution in any form that affects me and my property, I have a case. Twelve peers of reasonable intelligence should be able to determine if I have suffered a loss and what restitution should be made by the polluter to make me whole. The possibility of such an action makes it desirable for a polluter to come to me ahead of time and come up with an economic solution such as paying me for my suffering a mutually agreeable sum or buying my property at the value it had prior to pollution devalued it. That is how the free market works.

Yes, I know that noxious emmissions are only noxious for a short distance from the point source before they are diluted into the atmosphere. If I actually believed that the things we spew into the atmosphere were going to have a long term harmful impact on us, I might be more concerned. But without getting into the whole GW arguments, the amount of CO2 and manmade greenhouse gases are a drop in the bucket. The earth is and always has been pretty good at cleaning itself up. Even if manmade greenhouse gases were a significant contriutor to global warming, why wouldn't global warming be a good thing? Sure, there may be some folks who end up getting dislocated, but that really isn't any different from a volcano, tsunami, or lately our own government over-reaching with eminent domain. And even if global warming weren't a good thing, it is not going to happen over night. If we trust to the free market, as temperatures get warmer, somebody will find a way to take advantage of the increased temperatures in such a way to make us better off or a way to induce global cooling. Have a little faith, brother.

Eon - yeah
if there was one thing Heinlein and his major protagonists had in common it is this:

None would suffer fools gladly and few suffered them at all...

Vic - That was the one :D
Excellent!

An example
People were talking recently about an island off the coast of India that light rises in the local ocean depth has buried, and how awful that was.

But let's think here:

This is tsunami and typhoon country. An island that low-lying would be completely flattened come the next tsunami or typhoon.

As it stands, the residents left the island on their own and now live in other parts of India. So what would have happened to this low-lying island had carbon emissions (and the consequent economic activity) been reduced enough to keep the water from covering the island?

If a typhoon were coming their way (they happen, global warming or not), given the likely economic state of the island and of India *with* the carbon/economic reductions:

How likely would they have been to evacuate the island on their own?

How likely would the government of the state or of India itself be able to evacuate them?

Heck, would they even be able to afford the radios to tell them the typhoon was coming?

If the residents could afford the radios, could India and/or its media corporations afford to have a top-level newsfeed out to such a remote area?


The answer to these questions is most likely no. So rather than having some folks get a newsfeed telling them that their island's likely to go underwater for good in plenty of time to get boats they own to get off the island and go to other places in India that can absorb them.....

Some folks would have them frolicking through the forest of the low-lying island (more like wallowing in poverty and starvation, but who am I to rain on liberals' Rousseau-ian parade?) until the entire island and its residents are flattened in the next typhoon or tsunami.

Supply and Demand
Our world is not a marketplace. Supply and demand do not apply when it comes to air, water and weather. There is a great demand for water all over the world, but the supply is finite. Coal fired power plants in Minnesoat have put enough mercury into the enviroment I can only eat Walleye once a week. There is a conservative solution. Conserve! Now are you going to shut down your computer or just leave it running all day?

eco-sciences and you
Has Al given up planes trains and autoes yet? has the herald the Herald done like wise? Is China Korea and All Asia done as we? do any others foot the bill of the eco pill? why must we pay the cost bear the price? It makes no sense it makes no point un-less we look at what they gain. Al he said he feels our pain but rides and flies and never touches a trian. For his words may be true he claimed he knows whats best for you. to live in clustered high denisty apterments own no cars and use public transportation, but the elite like he would decide and tell the we the people what we need. alll these sought sayers running round crying yelling inside a rowd about what happens naturally but fickle minded ingorant man belives for he feels now heres the rub that these men of such insight would not nor could not lie you see.

Vic
Next, perhaps, they will restore a portion of the Fifth Amendment by reversing Kelo and preserving property rights.

Recall that
it's not the SC, its the DC Court on the way to the Supremes.

Off Topic but good news
I got a birthday present yesterday from the Supreme Court:

http://legaltimes.typepad.com/blt/2007/03/dc_circuit_stri.html

Another gungrabber law goes down!

GW
Another theory used by the Communist Socialist Revolution to oppress capitalists of the Constitutional Republic of the United States.

(76 albores led the big p-raid (as in property confiscation)

To Dash42
Could this be it?

There are hidden contradictions in the minds of people who "love Nature" while deploring the "artificialities" with which "Man has spoiled 'Nature.'" The obvious contradiction lies in their choice of words, which imply that Man and his artifacts are not part of "Nature" — but beavers and their dams are. But the contradictions go deeper than this prima-facie absurdity. In declaring his love for a beaver dam (erected by beavers for beavers' purposes) and his hatred for dams erected by men (for the purposes of men) the Naturist reveals his hatred for his own race — i.e., his own self-hatred.
In the case of "Naturists" such self-hatred is understandable; they are such a sorry lot. But hatred is too strong an emotion to feel toward them; pity and contempt are the most they rate.
As for me, willy-nilly I am a man, not a beaver, and H. sapiens is the only race I have or can have. Fortunately for me, I like being part of a race made up of men and women — it strikes me as a fine arrangement — and perfectly "natural" Believe it or not, there were "Naturists" who opposed the first flight to old Earth's Moon as being "unnaturaI" and a "despoiling of Nature."

Dash42
No, I don't, I'll have to look it up. Knowing Lazarus, it was probably uncomplimentary. Jake and Zeb in TNOTB would have equally low opinions, I'm sure, being a mathematician/engineer and an engineer/pilot, respectively. (Hilda, OTOH, would just TWIP them on general principles.)

OTOH, I do recall what Ray Bradbury called the anti-nuclear contingent of the ecology crowd in a teleconference I was privileged to participate in back in 1986. He referred to them as "neo-Luddites", which I believe was the first time I'd ever heard the term. Bradbury may have invented it. It wouldn't surprise me, as he definitely operates at a very high level in terms of thought and his command of the English language.

cheers

eon

Non-Persons & Non-Events
The AGW "religionists" are attempting to render the AGW "deniers" "non-persons", as was done with dissidents in the old Soviet Union. Similarly, they are attempting to render both the Medieval Climate Optimum and the Little Ice Age "non-events" by beating them into oblivion with a hockey stick. Some old tactics are just too good to abandon!

Hey eon
Do you remember Lazarus' opinion on the enviro wacko from TEFL?

eon your point 1
I note however, that NONE of the 'noble savage' crowd is rushing to join them...

Well Marc
As I've said before:

The Sun is excempt from both regulation and taxation, hence it's suitability as the major cause for 'climate change' is nil.

Despite all the historical evidence to the contrary - the poor sods living through the Mideival warming period obviously were mistaken in their belief that wine grapes were growing in Britain; and as to naming Greenland, obviously Lief Erikson was being sarcastic...

To Lynne
This is it:

Vic writes: Tuesday, March, 06, 2007 1:21 PM
The Flim-Flam Man
76 albores led the big parade
with a 101 libtards near at hand
They were followed by rows and rows of the finest media hens;
The cream of every famous scam.

76 albores skipped the burning sun
with a 110 UN harpies right behind
There were more than a 1000 political hacks springing up like weeds,
There were offsets of every kind.
Apologies to M. Willson

Boom in building powerplants
The "boom" in the US midwest is a small yellow spot in the snow compared to the BOOM in building powerplants in China and India. If we reduced our powerplant CO2 emissions to zero by 2050, we would not net out the projected growth in CO2 emissions from China alone.

It is upside down
The enviros don't want or plan to give up their opulent lifestyles and tear down their mcmansions to build lots of small houses for the underprivileged. They prefer to ride around in their jets and limos and tell the poor in underdeveloped countries how lucky they are to live such pristine lives in hovels with no running water, sewers, or electricity.
The whole environmental movement is predicated on big shots (big users) running around telling others how much they care and how the other people must sacrifice. They of course are much too important to live the way they demand others live.

Two "Inconvenient Facts"
1. Arguing that the necessary restrictions on CO2 emission would prevent the economic development of Second and Third World countries is a non-starter with the deep-ecology crowd. Due to their obsession with the "noble savage" concept, they view any attempt to modernize the underdeveloped world with horror. To them, those living in poverty in Africa and Asia are "living the dream"- living "gently on the land" in a way they believe that all of humanity should be living. And if most of humanity dies of starvation, plague, etc., in the process (as we have seen in Africa), who cares? That many less humans to "oppress" animals and harm Holy Mother Gaia.

2. According to the Washington Post this AM, there is a boom in building power plants in the Midwest to keep pace with the burgeoning electrical requirements of our new "wired world". But surprise!- all the plants being built are coal-fired. While they do have substantially lower sulfur dioxide and other pollutant emissions than the coal-fired plants of a generation ago, they generate only about 15% less CO2, due to it being an inescapable byproduct of the combustion process. Environmentalists are, of course, screaming in protest. They've just forgotten one tiny little detail.

Thirty years ago, they were the ones who killed the nuclear-power industry in this country. A decade ago, they went hog-wild over dismantling hydroelectric dams to "make rivers wild again", a process that that rabid enemy of Mother Gaia, Chimpy McBusHitler, continues to this day (G-d only knows why). And after first demanding windmill farms, they are now in full-blown NIMBY mode on same, especially if they live anywhere near Ted Kennedy.

The biters have now been bitten on the backside by the "unintended consequences" of their own fanaticism. And they have just found out that, sooner or later, what you sow you shall reap. They preach "conservation", but won't give up their laptops, demand to be able to recharge their (extremely inefficient) electric cars whenever the light flashes on, and want to be able to Ipod and cellphone 24/7. They just don't want the necessary energy to maintain their oh-so-socially responsible, multiculturally-sensitive, New Age lifestyles to be generated by icky technological means.

But there's no other way to do it.

The TANSTAAFL Rule applies; There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch. Especially in energy usage. The Second and Third Laws of Thermodynamics cannot be repealed by an Act of Congress. To use energy, you must first generate it somehow. And that means you have to get it from mass. Period.

And no, all those ads saying that this, that, or the other neat techno-widgie is "Powered By The Internet" do not mean that the Internet generates its own power. It just means that the gorf who wrote the ad copy is at least as much of a technological and scientific ignoramus as the average trendy, post-modern, progressive environmentalist.

And it's about time that all of the above either put up, or shut up.

You want "clean" energy? You've got two viable options, nuclear or hydroelectric. Wind, solar, and fusion are at best palliatives, at worst chimeras. It's like cutting a pie; you can only cut it into so many pieces before you have pieces too small to feed the people who need it. Sooner or later, you have to bake another pie. The environmentalists (and I include those who post here) are determined to stop anyone from even mixing dough for a second pie shell. To call them selfish dogs in a manger, as my late mother would have put it, is unjust. It unnecessarily insults the canine species. Dogs are generally smarter than to behave in this manner.

The fact that I will no doubt be savaged by the likes of those posters after I hit "post" on this simply proves that they are either too ignorant of the issue to express a qualified opinion, or suffer from a schizoid personality disorder which prevents them from realizing that what they've demanded for the last three decades is largely responsible for the present situation. As Barry Commoner said, "Actions have consequences". So does the refusal to take action when necessary, as well as taking the wrong action based on "feelings" and "philosophies" rather than objective conditions. Otherwise known as facts.

As Mentor said, "Think, youth, THINK!"

Clear Ether!


eon

To Lynne
Wayne writes: "While Harold was talking about the perils of a pool table in River City, today the “Music Man” would be talking about the perils of global warming."

back on March 6 I did a comment and I think it was Myopine followed up with a takeoff on 76 trombones. (76 Albores led the big parade).

Environmental Externalities
Environmental externalities are real. Monetizing environmental externalities has proven very difficult and contentious.

First, agreement must be reached on the method of determining externalities costs: the control cost method; or, the damage cost method. The control cost method is simpler, though not simple, but bears no fixed relationship to the magnitude of the damage which results from the emissions. The damage cost method is more relevant, but far more difficult. California, in the 1990s, had 3 different damage cost numbers for SOx and NOx emissions: one for emissions in the LA basin; one for emissions in the remainder of the state; and, one for emissions downwind of the state. (Some would suggest that their approach was parochial; others, merely cynical.)

Second, agreement must be reached on the approach to establishing the monetized costs: the technical approach; or, the political approach. The technical approach is far more difficult, since it is based on data and logic; the political approach is simpler, since it requires neither, thus placing it within the scope of politicians.

Finally, the level of emissions reductions to be achieved and the timeframe over which the reductions are to occur must be determined. Even after ignoring the "zero immediately" fringe, the determination of the tolerable level of continuing emmissions is a non-trivial problem, especially from the technical perspective, but even from the political perspective.

Now, we come to the specific question of the "environmental externalities costs" of CO2 emissions. What is the "damage cost" of the emission of one ton of CO2? Or, what is the cost of controlling the emissions of one ton of CO2? (Actually, this is two fundamental questions: "What is the cost of the first ton of reductions?"; and, "What is the cost of the final ton of reductions?". What is the tolerable level of continuing emissions? What is the timeframe over which reduction to the tolerable level of continuing emissions must be achieved?

So, the ultimate question, rarely discussed in public forums: "What fraction of anthropogenic CO2 emissions must be eliminated, over what timeframe, to achieve the required result?"

NOTE: The answer to the ultimate question above is not "7% below 1990 levels by 2012".

76 scam artists
Someone has been monitoring our posts here. 76 Albores led the big scam.

Ah, I feel dizzy.......
Can someone please tell me what the sun has been doing lately?

Since before recorded history the effect of the Sun on our planet has ruled the roost, doesn't it seem likely that it still does?

Like the receeding icecaps on Mars are related to our "global warming", how? It must be the greenhouse gasses we import into Mars Central.

Or do we all have to buy "carbon offsets" like Al Gore to atone for a SUV or a Weber Grill?

Hmmm. If I give money to a tree farm to plant trees, which they are doing anyway, I not only pay for someone else's future lumber profits,(perhaps my own?), but I absolve my guilt from pollution?

Neat! Plus it must be a tax deduction too, right?

I'm a laissez faire capitalist, but ..
I have some difficulty with the conservative viewpoint on the subject of the environment.

The Environment (which has now replaced the Flag, Motherhood and Apple Pie in its significance to many Americans) is ONE area in which few people (Right or Left) can disagree that some intervention is required.

However, it is precisely in the TYPE of intervention (translated: control) that the Leftist ideology rears its ugly head.

Apologies in advance, much of the rant that follows is not DIRECTLY related to CSR, the Environment, Global Warming or the Kyoto Accord. Those who manage to stay awake until the end will see the connection.

Still with me? OK, here goes!

Many of our societal problems have come from the institutions that we have created to limit the 'negatives' associated with capitalism. Most of those problems are actually worse than the ills that they were supposed to cure.

To elaborate my point, consider the analogy of our economy as a powerful system that is driven by individuals in their 'pursuit of happiness'. The prosperity of our country is one of the many POSITIVE outputs of this system. Environmental damage (and any other supposed 'problem' caused by unbridled capitalism) are relatively small but NEGATIVE by-products.

The beauty of capitalism is that there are self-corrections built into it. Most of the NEGATIVES, feed back into the system (w/out Govt intervention) and impose a correction that very quickly reduces/eliminates the problem. For example, interest rates rise quickly to prevent an increase in speculative investments if there is an over-bought sentiment in the markets.

In the case of Environmental damage, it takes years, decades or centuries for the effects to be fed back. So, this is an area in which intervention seems necessary.

After all, my right to swing my arms freely ends at the bridge of your nose. Likewise, my 'right' to spew toxins into the air ends (literally) at your nose! Note: please refrain from any scatological thought processes at this point.

Most of the institutions that are supposed to monitor and/or control those NEGATIVES fail because of the power given to a group that doesn't directly benefit from a POSITIVE output. We created the Dept of Education to monitor, control and even run our schools - but they don't benefit from a positive outcome! They get MORE money when more schools fail.

In some ways, environmental problems are similar to the educational problems (disparities) that were used to justify the Govt takeover of education. Why? Both are long-term problems - not with relatively short cycle times like economic swings. In education, as with the environment, it takes a few decades before we can collect data and detect a problem. So, it is particularly important to have the right incentives at work.

So, can anyone suggest a method that allows us to monitor and control environmental pollution - without giving power to a group that doesn't benefit directly from the POSITIVE output of our economy?

Clearly the Kyoto accord (and other millstones) don't meet the above criteria. None of that "one-world über alles" stuff ever works any way, so our methods have to be uniquely American to succeed.

I have one somewhat imperfect suggestion: each industry voluntarily creates different 'classes' of pollution levels. These classes can change, as technology improves; a non-Govt impartial industry group (funded by companies who voluntarily submit to compliance testing) sets these classes. Companies are graded into classes, six-sigma style, based on their performance against their competitors. The system could be used to compare the products of a company, it's processes, or both.

Class0: best in class
Class1: almost the best
: : : : : : : : : : : :
Class10: awful, filthy, polar-bear-drowning, murderous swine

Class0 companies are exempt from any taxes on their profits. Class10 (or worse) companies pay 100%, an average company pays 50% and .. well, you get the picture! Good companies can use their 'rating' as bragging rights against their competitors. Green-keen individuals can (voluntarily) choose to buy products from Greener companies - if the tradeoff means that prices are higher, well, that's their choice.

Any comments? Suggestions? Noxious fumes?

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