Townhall.com, Where Your Opinion Counts
Talk Radio:   Bill Bennett   Mike Gallagher   Dennis Prager   Michael Medved   Hugh Hewitt   
BREAKING NEWS  LeftArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican   RightArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican  
Columns, funnies & more in your inbox!
  • Check the boxes and send us your email address to receveive your free newsletter
  • Your daily must-read of conservative columns, cartoons and news. Coulter, Sowell, Krauthammer and more.
  • Townhall.com’s weekly inside scoop on what’s happening behind the scenes in the world of politics. When news breaks, we report.
  • Signup to receive the latest daily Townhall cartoons
Saturday, January 27, 2007
Wayne Winegarden :: Townhall.com Columnist
Free Markets or "Corporate Social Responsibility"
by Wayne Winegarden
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
[+] Text [-]
 
Poll
Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


Taking a cue from John Lennon, BusinessWeek is imagining “a world in which socially responsible and eco-friendly practices actually boost a company’s bottom line.” (BusinessWeek: January 29, 2007). The article cites socially responsible CEO’s leading the way to this future such as:

Jeffrey Immelt, CEO of General Electric Co., who is betting billions to position GE as a leading innovator in everything from wind power to hybrid engines. Wal-Mart Stores Inc., long assailed for its labor and global sourcing practices, has made a series of high-profile promises to slash energy use overall…GlaxoSmithKline, discovered that, by investing to develop drugs for poor nations, it can work more effectively with those governments to make sure its patents are protected.

Corporate Social Responsibility (CSR) advocates and business magazines point to these companies and claim that CSR is not only the right thing to do, it also enhances profits. These companies can “do well by doing good!” Such simplistic claims miss the grander danger that CSR, as a movement, represents.

CSR activists start the discussion with the answer: GE should invest in wind power; Wal-Mart should pay its workers more. By its very name, “Corporate Social Responsibility” activists are advocating the socially responsible position. If you disagree with CSR policies, you are obviously socially irresponsible. The CSR activists’ policies forget one fundamental fact of life that dooms their policies from the start: scarcity.

Our world is plagued with scarcity: resources are scarce, talent is scarce, capital is scarce, and perhaps most importantly knowledge is scarce. Society’s fundamental question is how best to combine its scarce resources in order to create the things we need and the things we want. Experience has shown that the most effective way for society to combine these scarce resources is to establish and protect basic economic freedoms. The most fundamental of these freedoms is for individuals to have well defined rights over their own personal property – whether it is their land, their labor, their machines, or their equities. These rights must include the knowledge that their property will not be arbitrarily stolen from them by either other citizens or the government itself. Of course the government has the right to impose certain restrictions – for instance a prohibition on dumping radioactive materials – but these need to be well defined in advance and not changed in an arbitrary manner.

With these basic freedoms established, millions (or hundreds of millions) of citizens are empowered to leverage their own individual knowledge and initiative to better their own situation. In so doing, as Adam Smith illustrated over 240 years ago, the wealth of overall society grows in tandem. The wealth of the United States, Europe, Japan and much of East Asia stand as a testament to the universal power of economic freedom and capitalism to unleash the power of economic growth and lift hundreds of millions of people out of poverty.

In this realm, GE’s decisions to invest in wind power may be the right decision. Reading the energy consumer tea leaves, Jeffrey Immelt may have realized that wind power is technologically feasible and that consumers will prefer wind power over other alternatives. Thus, the investment is warranted. If he is correct, the marketplace will reward GE. GE’s sales will grow and their shareholders will make more money. As for society, we will have a more desirable power source and not just from GE as other competitor’s jump on the wind power bandwagon.

But, what if Mr. Immelt is wrong? What if wind power is not technologically feasible, or what if consumers will be unsatisfied with their power if it is delivered by wind technology. In this case, GE will lose money. Its shareholders will be unhappy and Mr. Immelt’s job will be less secure. As for the impact on society, it depends.

Capitalism is a process of creative destruction. For instance, the CD player was a great leap forward over record players. Because of the improved consumer benefits, consumers migrated away from records and toward the new technology, CD’s. In essence, the introduction of the CD destroyed the album.

From this perspective, a wasted investment in a promising technology is not necessarily a bad thing for society – if GE does not try we may never reap the rewards of wind power. Additionally, in a free market there are many other experiments with other technologies (some old, some new) occurring simultaneously. Through this experimental process, our scarce knowledge is put to its best uses and society benefits.

CSR’s policies endanger this process. As opposed to letting those people with the best knowledge experiment, CSR advocates presume they already know the answer. The CSR activists already know that investing in wind power will enhance GE’s profits. Their presumption thwarts the market process that is responsible for so many of the gains our society has made throughout the years.

It also raises a more fundamental question: if CSR activists already know how to maximize profits, why not “do well by doing good” themselves? The answer, to paraphrase Detouches: "Advocating is easy, business is difficult."

Share:
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
 
About The Author

Wayne H. Winegarden Ph.D. is a partner in the firm Arduin, Laffer & Moore Econometrics.

Be the first to read Wayne Winegarden's column. Sign up today and receive Townhall.com delivered each morning to your inbox.

We've had this discussion before
We've already had this discussion. Corporations need to look to the bottom line. I don’t invest in a stock because I want a company to go out and do “green”. I invest because I want to make green. I want a return on my investment. If GE whishes to invest capitol in Wind Turbines, let it be because strong consensus says that they can sell wind turbines. Not because some left wing do-gooder feelings based group thinks they should.

Mr. Winegarden omits one important point also. The scarcity of capital, talent, and knowledge is not a given. Economics is not a zero sum game where expenditure on one thing results in loss of another.

CSR and the acolytes who support it...
This article was another excellent presentation of logic. Presented well enough so that even CEO's can understand it. Your comments about how these people “know” that CSR is profitable is classic. They “know” yet they never “do”. This has to leave one with the impression that they don’t really “know” and as a result, why should anyone listen to them, or they merely lack the guts to “do” and as a result they don’t deserve to be listened to. Perhaps they merely lack the expertise to “do”. If that is the case they need to be quiet and shouldn’t be listened to. The only other conclusion is that they are lying. Oh no! “Say it ain’t so Joe”

I use the same line of logic about anti-pesticide activists. If living without pesticides is paradise, why aren’t these people living in countries that don’t use them. The kind that don’t have dams which allows for the wonderful free flowing rivers that they rhapsodize about. This of course means little or no electricity and the bad health conditions that go with it. Little or no proper sanitation, no chlorine in the water, little control over the wildlife, absolutely no genetically modified foods, no roads and terrible personal transportation. If this is the paradise they so desperately want to create here, why don’t they move there and show us how it is done? Why do they continue to live in this terribly contaminated part of the world? Is it because they don’t know what they are talking about? Then again perhaps they view this as an experiment in life. Perhaps this is their personal growth in “feel good” philosophy. This way if their philosophies are wrong only those in the third world will die and they will still be here to hatch new theories that they won’t be accountable for. Nah, that can’t possible be true, after all they’re intentions are good. Right?

It is amazing how the pattern keep repeating, isn’t it?


Social Responsibility is required
In our fascist, collectivist state, “social responsibility” as defined by the left wing Marxist advocacy groups and their enablers, congress, is a required tenant of business.

GE certainly wants to get givernment (sic) contracts, givernment welfare, givernment help in selling goods abroad be it on Clinton’s Ron Brown business junkets to let foreigners know who the approved US vendors are or by pimping for the DC political correctness ideology of environmentalism.

Fantastic article
I would just posit one quibble: absent any legislation that grants them the use of gummint's power to coerce, I don't see CSR activists as that huge of a threat. If their recommendations are poor, then any company dumb enough to listen to them, and grant their suggestions the weight of implementation, deserves its fate. The CSR activists really DON'T have all that much power to short-circuit the market, after all...


Wrong!
Winegarden: CSR activists start the discussion with the answer: GE should invest in wind power; Wal-Mart should pay its workers more.

Phylo: No they don't. They are asking us to imagine "a world in which socially responsible and eco-friendly practices actually boost a company’s bottom line."

The examples cited by the author do not show CSR spokespeople claiming absolute certainty that all acts of social responsibility are always profitable. They're merely pointing to a few examples of where it could be (GE), or where it has been (GlaxoSmithKline).

And yet, somehow these few examples inspire the author to claim that the CSR movement represents a "grand danger".

How revealing: He seems to be all too eager to supress any evidence that social responsibility CAN (or COULD) have a positive effect on the bottom line.

Why?

Would it really be so aweful if it were true Mr. Winegarden? Would it really?

Phylo out.

Hey FMacL, get a clue.......
....get a clue from activist's actions in other areas. Who cannot cite an instance of legislation started by do-gooders and is now the law?

Been reading about trans-fat bans? No sodas in schools? 55 MPH speed limits? Free healthcare to illegals? Anchor babies are citizens?

How about "gun free zones", also know as victim centers. How absurd to publically declare that everyone is disarmed by law? Why not put a sign in front of your house; "I am unarmed and incabable of defending myself"? How many gun controler are willing to do that?

The point is that some movements have benefits but not all get high marks for achievements. Some even are counter-productive and dangerous. And all seem to take freedom of choice away from citizens.

Some folks like to smoke and would not have a problem frequenting a smoker's bar or restaurant. But the law here in CA prevents that. Is it your job to force me not to smoke, drive over 55, not eat bacon-burgers and not own a gun for self-defense?

Maybe you should migrate to Britian.

Phylo's Right, As Usual
Phylo's right, as usual. The column was, in theory, about CSR advocates who have discovered CSR programming that's ROI positive. Shouldn't we be congratulating CSR advocates for finally using an acceptable framework for deciding what policies to push (ie, cost and benefit)? Shouldn't we be congratulating wal-mart and ge for finding ways to do the right thing that ALSO rewards shareholders? I'm all in favor of lambasting CSR folks who want companies to undertake programming that's costly and has an upside that's difficult to quantify. That said, doesn't the knee-jerk reaction demonstrated by Winegarden against CSR blind conservatives to situations when folks across the aisle actually have good suggestions?

Deception
Phylo, and john doe have been sucked in by the misleading platitudes spouted by CSR activists. Few if any on either side of the political spectrum oppose the basic premise of CSR, which is the pursuit of the enlightened self interest of the corporation. Corporations are a part of society so what benefits society will benefit them in the long run. As long as these goals are striven for voluntarily and transparently there is absolutely nothing wrong with them. The problem is with the "activists" who claim to espouse these principles. While there may be a few exceptions, the vast majority of them are anything but altruistic. Their interests are twofold. First, they have the attitude that "we know better what's best for you than you do for yourself" leading to the incurable desire to control every aspect of other people's lives. They use the legal and legislative systems to impose their will upon the rest of us.
Second, and more perniciously, these "activists" are really shakedown artists looking for any deep pocket they can put their hands into.
This is the same crowd that comprises the enviro-nutcase, anti-golbalization movements which are really anti-capitalists looking for a cause to hijack.

Deskjockey writes: .......
...."Social Responsibility is required
In our fascist, collectivist state, “social responsibility” as defined by the left wing Marxist advocacy groups and their enablers, congress, is a required tenant of business."
What the h#%l does this statement mean? Please elaborate?

I have a question: Will "CSR" lead to National Socialism (true Nazism or fascism -- whichever one prefers it called)?

I think it will. Look back at the beginnings of the EPA and compare it to now -- where they actually have armed agents running around. We must be constantly vigilant and this post by Wayne Winegarden is, although not a call to arms, a certain warning of the future if we let "CSR" run amuck as we let the EPA run!

Be aware! Be vigilant! Be active!

Moonbat Exterminator writes:.....
....."Corporations are a part of society so what benefits society will benefit them in the long run."
Actually you are 100% correct here. The problem is that it never is allowed to end there because devious, greedy corporations can't be allowed by the society and the government they are helping to continue making profits. Social activists in our society demand and democrat legislators demand greater and greater controls on business in general and very successful (read profitable) businesses in particular. Thus creeping nationalization of our country's economic driving force becomes rampant nationalization by both collaboration and "law". The communists running the MSM don’t help much either; and, they do not have the sense to understand that they will not be allowed to exist as they exist today.

no room for CSR
Conservatives should not be fooled by any CSR proposals. The most elementary proposititions of free market economics are sufficient for conservatives to refute CSR. Profits rule in the free market. Liberals have the lock on CSR; it's our kind of position, not the right's kind of position. Corporate leaders who endorse CSR should rethink their support, and shareholders should insist that companies be as socially irresponsible as necessary for a good ROI.

Let the public sector be the source of new, environmentally sound technologies. The private sector should not be concerned with such issues.

We are already a fascist state
The Black Cherokee writes:
““Deskjockey writes; In our fascist, collectivist state, “social responsibility” as defined by the left wing Marxist advocacy groups and their enablers, congress, is a required tenant of business."

What the h#%l does this statement mean? Please elaborate?”



What this means is that in our fascist, collectivist economy, you either shill for DC and their enviro wackos or you are punished by the FEDS.

B Cherokee writes: “I have a question: Will "CSR" lead to National Socialism (true Nazism or fascism -- whichever one prefers it called)? I think it will. Be aware! Be vigilant! Be active!”

We are there they just haven’t yanked the chain on everybody. Remember the Wake Forest professor a week ago who dared to suggest that stem cell from fetuses wasn’t necessarily because amniotic has proven to work just fine. Well regardless of the merits of the argument, he retracted that the next day when, in my opinion, the university explained how many millions of Fed dollars were about to be lost if he didn’t retract.

Also, consider running a business where even if you are merely driving a taxi, cutting hair, digging a ditch, you must beg the state for a license to work and eat.

Mr. Winegarden
wrote, "If you disagree with CSR policies, you are obviously socially irresponsible."


That's the strategery in a nutshell. To the socialist-democrats, if you're against the environmentalists, you hate clean air and water.

To the S-D's, if you're against affirmative action, you're a racist.

To the S-D's, if you think we should surge in Iraq, you're a chicken-hawk.

The ad hominem attacks are part and parcel of the S-D's agenda.

Phylo claims that CSR activists don't want Wal-Mart to increase employees' wages. WHAT? That's all the MSM broadcasts, 24-7. According to the CSR idiots, government intervention into the cost of labor is a GOOD thing.

Others (like me) say that government intervention into managing businesses is socialism. If the market doesn't agree with the way a company is doing business, the policy will change. Businesses' life blood is money. When the market ceases to inject money into a business by purchasing goods/services, the business dies. It's that simple.

But, no, the socialists in America want corporations to be managed by the federal government. In their warped sense of logic, the freedom of consumers to choose what good/services they wish to purchase is wrong. Consumers, to the socialists, should purchase goods/services based on how the socialists evaluate a business. So if the socialists say, "Wal-Mart is evil," then you shouldn't shop there, even though it will cost you more in time, money, gasoline to shop elsewhere.

The socialists in this country are the enemy of free-market capitalism and, therefor, the enemy of the people.

SR is merely cover for Commie terrorist
John & Phylo miss the point.

We must remember who funds these groups and what is their agenda. Their agenda is Communism. The leaders actually don’t care a hoot about the marketed social responsibility they profess, it merely is cover for Marxism. Granted a few of the rank and file may actually still be ignorant of the goal.

Example, a few weeks ago the givernor of CO merely asked for the help of PETA (People Eating Tasty Animals) to feed the animals after the blizzard, as the state would not get to them all quick enough. PETA told them to take a hike. PETA has also tossed live animals in dumpsters rather than merely bring them to shelters up in the DC area, I assume because it is cheaper that way. Klamath Falls quickly proved that more endangered species were dying from the cut off of water to farmers than was theoretically saved by not doing so. The enviro wackos cared not when this was brought to their attention because they wanted to bankrupt the farmers not save animals. I can give example after example of SR’s and their hypocrisy, (if you assume SR is their agenda). But of course Communism is the agenda and SR is the cover, because the sole purpose is to put monkey wrenches anyway possible into capitalism whether it is the hourly scares of this food poison and that one, global warming, DDT, vaccines, transfat, fat foods, on and on in an endless assault.

Here is a good article to see how the funding and operations work for the SR crowd. The first one is a little long but it is a primer on tactics. Notice how all the companies get religion when these terrorist strike without any fear of retaliation. It is merely a KKK version of the Jesse Jackson extortion tactics. I remember the nuclear scare in the 70’s and the 100’s of billions in lost value to this country’s power grid. Now if we could have sued these terrorist for $100B then fine, but they always get to walk away free and clear while everybody else suffers.

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2004/05/31/370717/index.htm


Colorado request for PETA help:

http://www.consumerfreedom.com/pressRelease_detail.cfm/release/189

Political Gnostics
“DavidMac writes: Saturday, January, 27, 2007 2:14 PM

To the socialist-democrats, if you're against the environmentalists, you hate clean air and water.

To the S-D's, if you're against affirmative action, you're a racist.

To the S-D's, if you think we should surge in Iraq, you're a chicken-hawk.

The ad hominem attacks are part and parcel of the S-D's agenda.”


Fred Bastiat: “Frederic Bastiat 1850, THE LAW, “Socialism, like the ancient ideas from which it springs, confuses the distinction between government and society. As a result of this, every time we object to a thing being done by government, the socialists conclude that we object to its being done at all. We disapprove of state education. Then the socialists say that we are opposed to any education. We object to a state religion. Then the socialists say that we want no religion at all. We object to a state-enforced equality. Then they say that we are against equality. And so on, and so on. It is as if the socialists were to accuse us of not wanting persons to eat because we do not want the state to raise grain.”

David, what you expose is what Fred Hutchinson refers to as political gnosticism, which is "a dualistic view of the world that leads one to think in diametrical opposites."

Those posting against CSR..
are exactly right! And I can't help but wonder how many of you posting in defense of CSR, have their own Corporation or business of any kind. Or have even tried to start a business. I have! As Owner/President of a small corporation ( Electrical Engineering and State Licensed contractor) now retired after 30 years in a very successful business. I have first hand working experience.

What the Moonbats are pushing here is pure Social engineering. *Socialism at it's finest.* The only *social responsibility* a business has is to it's employee's. IE. fair wage for the job done. Group health ins. Retirement benefits etc, Without these things a business will not survive long, as the employee's go elsewhere.

The overwhelming ignorance of the Liberals is their continued belief in re-distributing wealth to accommodate their Socialist dream. All the socialists see are big corporations making large amounts of money and they can't stand it! It's Unfair! they scream! And try to get laws past forcing all to conform to their way of thinking.

While doing so, they never consider the Small business or Corporations like myself. That number in the millions! No small business can stay in business if they bend to these idiots! One of the main reasons I was successful is that I fought them at every attempt to intrude!

All business's should be environmentally concerned. But Social Engineering? He!! no!

Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Diction....
...ary - 10th Edition
Nazism: the body of political and economic doctrines put into effect by the National Socialist German workers' Party in the Third German Reich including the totalitarian principle of government, state control of all industry, predominance of groups assumed to be racially superior, and supremacy of the Fuhrer.

Fascism: a political philosophy, movement or regime that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation and forcible suppression of opposition.

Socialism: ....political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods.

Communism: 2,b -- a totalitarian system of government in which a single authoritarian party controls state owned means of production.

Deskjockey -- you use all of the above when speaking of this country, yet they are not synonymous (yes, similar in some aspects, but not all). Will you please pick the one you think best describes this country as you see it and then, from now on, use only that terminology. We out here in this blogosphere are not dumb, and we know that our country cannot be all of the above. Remember, the first two - Nazism and Fascism are ultra-right wing and the second two - Socialism and Communism are ultra left and extreme left respectively. I only suggest this so you can eliminate the confusion resulting of your synonymous usage. I don't in any way doubt your sincerity or concern for our country, I just would like to know where you are coming from and where you are trying to go.

Sorry for the length of this post. TBC

Fascism Smacism
Fascism is one term I would like to see go away from all these postings. The term really defies definition, look above. Is there really any difference between them and the Nazis. There has only been one country that had a Fascist government and that was Italy in the 30s and 40s. Why don’t we all just agree to quit using the term? Calling people Nazis is another loser. There used to be an old saying in the publishing community that if you had to resort to calling someone a Nazi that you had already lost the argument. That philosophy should be restored. Reserve those names for people who actually wear swastikas. As for name calling, you can always use the truth. Call the liberals – well …liberals. Call them socialists and communists.

It is all collectivism in various stages
The Black Cherokee writes:

Fascism, socialism, Communism [paraphrased]. “you use all of the above when speaking of this country, yet they are not synonymous (yes, similar in some aspects, but not all). Will you please pick the one you think best describes this country as you see it and then, from now on, use only that terminology.”

These are differences without a distinction. They are all totalitarian collectivism. I jump around because, if I can’t get somebody’s ire with one I hope I grab them with the other. Socialism has become a big yawn so I use Marxism, Communism always seems to work well and fascism fills in the remaining holes.

Lenin in his fist party platform draft, “Our Party looks farther ahead: socialism must inevitably evolve gradually into communism, upon the banner of which is inscribed the motto, “From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs””.

Lenin understood it is all the same garbage. We take all power and you are property of the state. There are so many terms, “the third way”, “democracy”, progressives, yada yada, that are all identical in the end, totalitarian collectivism, merely gotten to by a slight variation of emphasis in the beginning.

Now I would like to just use the general term collectivism, but that is not understood by many and another big yawn so please indulge me when I continue to use the hot terms for reaction.

Personally
We need to change the way we view media. If they insist on Public Television, they need to cut out the British comedies, operas, and all the other liberal garbage and it should be nothing but following products through the supply chain. If Nike has sweatshops we should see the sweatshops, if certain beef companies lock the cows in small cells where they can't move we should see that. That shirt you bought from Wal Mart pays some child who works 16 hours a day, the other proceeds from Wal Mart's collusion with China helps them build more arms and weapons, we should see that.

Media consolidation needs to be broken up as well. We would have real news if we broke up the oligarchy that gives us dumbed down, corporate washed, BS that they tell us is news.

Media has to start doing their job, government needs to break up the oligarchy which is basically a monopoly anyway since there is collusion, competitors each own thirds in other stations. And then the consumer needs to get their heads out of their @sses and buy American again or at least foreign products that aren't going to fund large military competitors. Once the consumers do their job, corporations will come around.

Ron Paul '08

To GWB
You missed your dose of chlorpromazine. Please report to room 115B.

Fascism and Nazism are NOT far right
Far right is more likly to actually be liberternarianism than the two you named above to the far right. If you have taken political science classes, you may be buying into this because this is what you learned. I took political science as well, but I was able to use the logic and realize something, Nazism and Fascism were just the other side of the same coin as Socialism and Communism. They all have the goal of taking away personal property. Either the state or government or a specific individual -- it doesn't matter -- individual control is no longer in the posession of the individual and personal property is eliminated. Which as a conservative and a "far right" person I do not endorse in anyway shape or form. So please study political terminology better. If the gentleman is using the terminology interchangably, he is right to do so, they are of the same political origin, just a different name.

CSR
A friend of mine commented that our company gave money to United Way because they wanted to 'give back' to the community.

My response was that we gave jobs and needed goods and services to the area. Without those the CSR stuff wouldn't even exist.

Not to mention it is IRRESPONSIBILITY to shaft the stockholders just to salve certain peoples consciences.

Deskjockey writes:.....
........"Now I would like to just use the general term collectivism, .........so please indulge me when I continue to use the hot terms for reaction."
I'm impressed! Are you an A.R. student, Deskjockey?
Nice explanation -- I'll be happy to indulge.
TBC

On Selfish Altruism
I haven't heard it yet, so I'll bring it up.

Has anyone considered that these companies are doing much of these "CSR" things in order to generate good PR? Sort of a self-aggrandizement? Self-promotion?

In other words, when GE invests in wind power, mayhaps they do it, not because they expect it'll *ever* make a nickel, but because they want to tell the buying consumers;

"SEE?? SEE!! We'se GOOD guys! You'se should buy OUR stuff, not they'rse!

Fer instance, you'se should buy *GE* coffee makers, NOT Black and Decker. You'se don't never see B&D guys gettin' no windmills, now DO ya's?? "

Such an investment might not, in and of itself, turn a profit, but the favorable publicity might make their other ventures more profitable; enough so to pay for the boondoggles. (If you ask me, wind power IS a boondoggle, and I suspect most of the folks at GE think the same.)

Now, don't get me wrong -- I'm not saying this is a BAD THING -- personally, as far as I'm concerned, it's their money and they can invest it any way they like -- but I'm just kind of surprised that none of our resident Socialists have gotten on board to villainize them for it.

Maybe it's too early in the week, hmmm? :-)

UncaAlby
Did you miss my comment on enlightened corporate self interest? Maybe I didn't elaborate adequately. If so, my bad.

coupled human environment system
Has anyone here considered the fact that we're in a place in history where we've never been before ... a place where there are 6.5 billion humans on the Earth? Do the business practices of the past centuries apply perfectly to this new world? Or will some adjustments to our way of doing business be needed?

Surely, corporations will not try to conduct "socially responsible and eco-friendly practices" unless these practices do boost their bottom line. But don't they have to explore them now? In a world of so many humans - on a planet that's clearly finite - isn't it time to at least try some new practices?

The emerging scientific reality is that humans and nature are coupled and always have been. See: coupled" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coupled_human-environment_system">coupled If we're coupled to Earth, as science says we are, then it's only natural that corporations would begin looking to understand how CSR affects their bottom line.

Deborah Byrd
Earth & Sky
"A Clear Voice for Science"
http://www.earthsky.org/blog/scientists-describe-human-world

The Marching Mommies of CSR
whose fevered dream is to run throughout the world screeming NO NO! and slapping legal products and activities out of the hands of informed adults, while simultaneously demanding that the world be baby-proofed since they have no time to look after their own toddlers.

CSR led to the year-off-with-pay for being smart enough to get pregnant, which has led in turn to "family friendly workplaces" which means that when the Judge decides he wants your presentation on Topic A tomorrow instead of Monday, you have Satan's own holiday trying to find anybody who is willing to work to get it done. "Family Friendly" means if you have children you don't have to do anything before 9:00 a.m. or after 5:00 p.m. or on weekends. And the paid vacation for pregnancy part means that we have 40 "floaters" who were originally hired to cover desks when people were on holiday and in fact means they have to sit at the desks of the Partying Mommies for a year and the people who need their desks covered have either got no help at all or they can't go on holiday.

It also means, of course, that women in the prime breeding years don't get these jobs in the first place because the employer actually needs someone who is going to be available to do the work when the work needs doing.

Bottom line is that we are all hired to do a certain defined job and if the employer is forced to take notice of everybody's feelings and families, the workd doesn't get done which means that the business goes broke and we all get fired.

How is this Socially Responsible?

The dream of the Ponytail Hippies is that they can have everything they imagine and somebody else can be forced to pay. They don't realize that all the people doing the actual work are nearing retirement and there won't be anybody to replace us at the rate we're going now.

Tish
I totally agree with you. Fascism and Communism are closely related. They are NOT far right. The spectrum goes from the left (total government control) to the right (anarchy). Our Founding Fathers gave us a Republic, which is somewhere near the middle. A form of LIMITED government.

to Moonbat exterminator
I was with you on your post until the last sentence.

How is it that you believe that someone being as you call it, "anti-globalist", is anti-capitalist? Have you actually checked out any of the non-free trade agreements such as NAFTA, CAFTA, etc.? This is not free enterprise. They give special favors to select corporations and establish several governing bodies that sits above our own Congress. Do you think our Founding Fathers would approve?

http://www.jbs.org/node/1012

http://www.jbs.org/search/node/NAFTA


basic point CSR
weingarden hit the nail on the head when he said:

"if CSR activists already know how to maximize profits, why not “do well by doing good” themselves? The answer, to paraphrase Detouches: "Advocating is easy, business is difficult."

again, if it is so easy CSR, why don't you build your own equivalents of walmart and ge. that way you can clean up! you would corner the market and put ge and walmart out of business. you can pay each worker a living wage. heck it is not my money, so let's advocate for a starting wage of $100000. wow, that was easy! i really thought you had to be logical and make sense to be an advocate. you just have to talk louder and have cool slogons.


"Give back" what you stole
DavidM writes:

“A friend of mine commented that our company gave money to United Way because they wanted to 'give back' to the community.

My response was that we gave jobs and needed goods and services to the area. Without those the CSR stuff wouldn't even exist.

Not to mention it is IRRESPONSIBILITY to shaft the stockholders just to salve certain peoples consciences.”



David, I have a new approach for you to use in the future that I have used for years.

When somebody says, “give back to the community”, I ask, “how much did you steal”. Now the basis of my comment is that I don’t accept the Marxist doctrine that the pie is limited and if I have more than you then I obviously stole your share, rather than have created a bigger pie. But because our givernment skuls (sic) and TV have brainwashed us in so subtle ways with such sayings we automatically fall into the trap.

Anyway, folks then respond to me that they haven’t stolen anything with a look of severe confusion. Then I explain, it is impossible for you to give back what you haven’t taken. Therefore you probably made a lot of money providing a value to the community that they have already obtained from you. And what you are now doing is charity rather than meeting some Communist obligation to give back your bigger share of some stolen pie. Be proud of your charity and forget the wacko guilt nonsense.

Cherokees predicted being DC slaves
The Black Cherokee writes: Saturday, January, 27, 2007 10:35 PM
Deskjockey writes:.....
........"Now I would like to just use the general term collectivism, .........so please indulge me when I continue to use the hot terms for reaction."
I'm impressed! Are you an A.R. student, Deskjockey?
Nice explanation -- I'll be happy to indulge.
TBC


I’m not sure what A.R. is, but if you are asking if I’m a Randian, I am not and I have some problems with the religion although I enjoyed her books. She was a student of Nietzsche, plagiarized his thinking, and then condemned the teacher to take credit for her own. Bad form. I have a local friend who is a Randian so I have fun trying to engage him in greater thinking than his little cell group allows and prod him to ask his church elders certain questions guaranteed to get him excommunicated, so he don’t dare.

Anyway, I’m intrigued by Black Cherokee, because I’m in NC and the Blacks and the Cherokees fought against the war of Northern Aggression, fearing what would become a nations slave state that we eventually turned into. But obviously the Cherokees had already experienced Federal givernment (sic) in action so no surprise they were petrified of our DC masters.

Labor Diluted Pays Less
This grand experiment of government of the people, by the people, for the people is being usurped by government of the corporations, by the corporations, for the corporations.
The primary responsibility of the U.S. government is to protect the territorial integrity and people of this country. They have completely abdicated this responsibility. Both parties have been complicit in this. We are being told it is not possible to control our borders, enforce our laws, and thereby control our destiny as a nation. Hogwash. We are being sold out by corporations intent on importing workers for jobs that can't be exported with the taxpayers paying the true costs, financial and human. If we act like sheep and don't stop the inundation across our borders, we will lose our country without a bleat.

Against Corp. Social Responsiblity?
No. How could anyone be against corporations acting in a socially responsible way? The problem comes from 2 directions:

1) Who's initiating it?

2) Who's defining the terms?

I would love it if Walmart paid their people better, and GE wind towers sound good to me. But not if it comes as a matter of government coercion. Corporations should be accountable to reasonable levels of control (limits on pollution and national security issues, for instance)but decisions on what they produce and how they produce it should be left to private managements, not bribe-driven bureaucrats and politicians. Such controls are rarely in the public interest.

The National Center for Public Policy Re
The National Center for Public Policy Research has a lot of stuff on the bogus global warming issue and why some of the big companies are pushing it. Including the first of the big ones pushing it, Enron.

http://www.nationalcenter.org/

http://www.nationalcenter.org/NPA384.html


Deborah,
thanks for writing the most insightful commentary in this thread.

Unfortunately, such logic is lost on most of the free market apologists. Why? One reason is because they amortize everything down to zero in (at most) their own lifetimes. Whatever happens 100 years hence cannot possibly affect any utility function. The future, they say, will be saved by the deus ex machina - technology! A touching faith inspired, no doubt, by selective memory of the occasional success.

You cannot argue for any moderation with such people. Thankfully, they are in the minority and always will be, otherwise there would be no hope for the future. The majority instinctively recoils from their myopic world vision which reduces us all to idiot savant calculators all solving equations to "maximize our utility function".

Most humans are thankfully smart enough to realize that the world is a finite place, and receives a finite energy income. They can also see the contradiction in having the cake of population growth and eating it with living standard growth.

Here's a suggestion for something to maximize everyone's utility function, without harming anything else: support raising taxes and more government controls over corporations. This benefits those on the "left", for obvious reasons; and it also benefits those on the "right" since they evidently derive much pleasure from grumbling about "moonbat enviro-nazis" and the like. In fact, I think the pleasure of whining (and publishing in this forum) would outweigh their umbrage at having to pay more tax. Willing to give it a try, Vic?

To thickasabrick
No, I gave up on trying to educate you people yesterday. I only make my bottom line statement now. If you wish to have your daily unit of "feel good", then pay for it yourself out of your own pocket. Don't resort to government extortion.

Vic,
sorry but I must have missed you yesterday (what thread was it?). Yesterday I was otherwise occupied reading "Catch-22", a novel which I have always wanted to read, out of curiosity as to how that expession came into the language. It contains a superb satire of the capitalist system, however that was entirely co-incidental. But I digress.

When I read your and others posts, it seems that you have some strong ideas about how mankind should arrange his affairs, presumably for some overall "good". In particular, you seem to believe that any collective action (such as government decrees, taxes and so on) are necessarily bad, whereas individual (or corporate) actions done in self-interest are good or at least neutral. By implication, "less" regulation must be "good".

However, I am not quite sure what those collective actions are supposedly universally bad _for_. So please permit me to ask you a few questions...

1 - What should we, as a society, try to maximize - total affluence, justice, happiness, truth, some balance of these, or what?

2 - In the above, how do you think of the term "society" - is it your nation, your race or culture, all of mankind, or some other subset of mankind?

3 - At what point to you draw the line between a reasonable law (such as against armed robbery) and government interference (such as a 100% marginal tax rate)? Do you even think such a line can be drawn?

You could rightly argue that these questions are extremely vague, and maybe meaningless, however I don't think we can have a meaningful argument without exploring them. Neither of us are expert in all of economics, law and political science, so we are creating nothing but hot air by arguing the way we both have to this point.

So please be as detailed as you like, and I promise to also answer the above questions. On the other hand, if you think this is meaningless philosophical drivel then tell me so and I will desist. On the other hand, you seem to be one of the more enthusiastic and passionate posters on these matters, so I have high hopes of your obliging me.


The bottom line
The bottom line is the consumers. They do not give a crap about social responsibility. They are going to go with either the lowest price or the trend(if they can afford to keep up with the Jones's). If social responsibility falls within those parameters, then it will sell and companies will make it, probably overseas, if not, then forget it.

To thickasabrick
1 - What should we, as a society, try to maximize - total affluence, justice, happiness, truth, some balance of these, or what?

We should follow the Constitution as it is written. My philosophy is more of Randian Objectivist without being an atheist. As John Locke stated, that Government governs best that governs the least. I am against ALL forms of socialism.

2 - In the above, how do you think of the term "society" - is it your nation, your race or culture, all of mankind, or some other subset of mankind?

As to our culture, I would go with the U.S. We have no business telling other countries how to do their business.

3 - At what point to you draw the line between a reasonable law (such as against armed robbery) and government interference (such as a 100% marginal tax rate)? Do you even think such a line can be drawn?

There has been much written about where laws should begin. My thought is that a minimalist approach should be used. Criminal laws should only be against those things which do either of two things: Cause direct harm to someone e.g. murder, assault etc. or which involve fraud of some type e.g. robbery, theft by deception etc. As far as taxes go, they should be set at the minimum necessary to support government with no “design” to influence society and no rationalized “progressive” cr*p.

I know all of this is waste of time so this is my last post on this thread.

Phlyo -
You are quick to say Winegarden is wrong yet you do not back up your statements with evidence.

The only responsibility a coorporation has is to it's employees and to make a profit.

It is a basic human responsibility to help heal the world. The two cannot mix.

To put it simply:
1. If a business does not make a profit then the employees do not get paid and do not have a job, health insurance etc.
2. If the employee does not have a job then they cannot take care of their family.
3. If a person cannot take care of their family they are not thinking nor do they care about social action issues.

Wayne Winegarden knows what he is talking about.

Extortion & terrorism replaces legislati
Deborah writes:

“….But don't they have to explore them now? In a world of so many humans - on a planet that's clearly finite - isn't it time to at least try some new practices?

If we're coupled to Earth, as science says we are, then it's only natural that corporations would begin looking to understand how CSR affects their bottom line.”

Deborah, it is really not the function of corporations to be saving mother earth. Therefore society has vested in the political body the power of restraints on certain behavior that jeopardizes other’s property. So if somebody wants to dump nuclear waste in their own yard but that will leach onto my property and devalue it, we legislate a protection of property.

But these enviro wacko operations are almost completely filled with commies trying to stop capitalism and who in the end care little about the enviro. I mentioned PETA and Klamath Falls as two excellent examples.

What really gets our blood boiling is that what they can’t accomplish in the legislature with their junk science they do in the private sector with extortion, blackmail and terrorism. I provided links above addressing their schemes. Once again.

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2004/05/31/370717/index.htm

http://www.consumerfreedom.com/pressRelease_detail.cfm/release/189


Save the enviroment try Communism
thickasabrick writes:

“….Whatever happens 100 years hence cannot possibly affect any utility function. …

Most humans are thankfully smart enough to realize that the world is a finite place, and receives a finite energy income. They can also see the contradiction in having the cake of population growth and eating it with living standard growth.

Here's a suggestion for something to maximize everyone's utility function, without harming anything else: support raising taxes and more government controls over corporations. …”

This raises a couple issues. One is the global warming hoax perpetrated by the UN some 30 years ago and the global freezing hoax they perpetrated prior to that. Dr. Stephen Smith was trotted out in the 60’s to prove we were all going to die by 1980 because global freezing would prevent all food growth. It was in all the magazines, TV etc. Well with all the marketing it still didn’t sell, so the UN went back to the drawing boards. They trotted Doc Smith out again 20 years later and they now promised us that we were going to be toast in some 20 years (early 2,000) At the core of this fear mongering was the UN solution. REDISTRIBUTE WEALTH. Duh, who’d a thunk a commie organization would come up with such an original solution like this? They force (at gun point, necessary) the US redistribute it’s wealth to all the UN target nations by buying bogus global warming credits. So why does all the world hate us for not signing the Kyoto treaty? Well it is because they aren’t getting their checks from the US yet and won’t until we do.

Anyway, they can’t predict the weather 100 years from now. They already proved they couldn’t predict global freezing and they proved they couldn’t predict that we’d be toast by 2004 that also didn’t happen. They prove every night on TV they can’t predict the weather for the end of the week. So we are going to export all our wealth to the rest of the world based on weather models that don't work for one week but trust them that they do work when you go out 100 years. Only commies can love this logic.

Now notice your suggestion which is exactly what I have been preaching is behind all the enviro nonsense. It isn’t about solving the problem, it is about redistribution of wealth and more givernment confiscation of property through regulation. You say raise taxes and regulations. Why don’t we discuss the real argument of Communism v Capitalism rather than divert the attention to all the commie schemes like global freezing, oh yea now it is global warming.

What my friend fails to realize is private property folks want to protect and preserve their property. Therefore the worst enviro records are SURPRISE, the commie countries. So we have commies telling us if we surrender all our property to them they will create a Utopia Garden of Eden environment for us but they have the worst record. Why do they have the worst record? Because it violates the laws of man and nature. Nobody takes care of what they didn't suffer to acquire, including the giver-nment.


There is an answer, proven and simple
thickasabrick writes:

“...you seem to believe that any collective action (such as government decrees, taxes and so on) are necessarily bad, whereas individual (or corporate) actions done in self-interest are good or at least neutral. By implication, "less" regulation must be "good".”….

So please permit me to ask you a few questions...

1 - What should we, as a society, try to maximize - total affluence, justice, happiness, truth, some balance of these, or what?”


Your question only has a bad answer. But sadly it is far better than the next solution. Our founder’s suggestion was that the function of givernment is to ONLY protect (not grant or provide) life, liberty and property. Jefferson, to avoid being called a Locke plagiarist changed property to pursuit of happiness being understood to be the same thing.

So whenever I hear of any proposal I ask, does this come under the 3 functions. Obviously 95% don’t. They are merely vote buying scams that waste money. When a candidate runs for office, I don’t get all worked up over whether the skul lunch program should be increased 7.1 or 7.5%, I ask only one question, is this guy going to increase or decrease my liberty. If he is running for either division of the Republicrat party I can assure you he wants to confiscate your life, liberty and property.

So what happened? Well as Bastiat pointed out, man is very smart and he would prefer to steal your fruits of labor rather than endure the pain of his own labor. But man also understands the laws of nature so he will not risk death to steal your fruits, but instead will go to givernment to sell his support of the master’s power in office in trade for its overwhelming force to confiscate your labor and deliver to him. I suggest you read Locke’s Second Treatise of Civil Government as he does a superb job of answering your questions above. http://www.constitution.org/jl/2ndtreat.htm

Anyway our founders understood the nature of man and they realized the evil that would ensue if the “balance” was put in favor of a givernment and so they put it in favor of the individual and recognized the second amendment as the tool needed to go kill the congress critters periodically. They didn’t envision this as an if situation but merely a how often situation. Jefferson in one letter suggested that every 25 years was about the time frame that givernment would be out of control and that "The tree of Liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

Brick: “2 - In the above, how do you think of the term "society" - is it your nation, your race or culture, all of mankind, or some other subset of mankind?”

Again, read Locke above. Society in AmeriKa was extremely different from anything ever known. The individual owned his own rights and he was no longer a “subject”. Therefore, using geography, race, culture misses the target. Our society is an ideal that transcends these physical limitations. And it only existed previously at the beginning of time for a short while. At the first time when two men happened to come upon each other, they didn’t say, hey let us set up a givernment and have them confiscate half our labor, educate our kids in k-12 indoctrination camps, set up a welfare department, set up foreign aid, yada, yada. No I suspect it went just like this. Hey, let us make a deal to help each other. I will trade you corn for your chickens, we will not murder each other’s family and we will protect each other in the event we are attacked by animals or other people if any exist.

We have gone from the direct control of two people setting up the perfect society to the enslavement of today because as numbers increased and folks who had their life, liberty and property in the pot where outvoted by those who didn’t. So today we are a nation of boundaries, not only of race, geography but even thought.

Brick: “3 - At what point to you draw the line between a reasonable law (such as against armed robbery) and government interference (such as a 100% marginal tax rate)? Do you even think such a line can be drawn?”

Again, read Locke, he covers this. The line is very simple, givernment can not violate the laws of nature, although it does it all day every day, and revolutions eventually ensue if the destruction of society doesn’t invite terrorist to do it first. We empower givernment to do just a very few things that we find more easily handled collectively rather than individually. If somebody is murdering my child, the law of nature says I must kill him. The law doesn’t say, I should ask him to stop for a few moments while I question his upbringing, whether he is doing this for reasons of hate or some other reason, or if he has some psychological problems, etc. I just kill first and ask questions later. Now we surrender that function to the state if for some reason we can’t kill the guy because we aren’t present at the time. It doesn’t mean the state should abrogate my right to have him killed, it merely means that the state use a cool head to determine if this is the guy to kill. Both rights under the laws of nature being preserved.

The marginal tax rate is very simple. Taxes is a confiscation of property if it is not limited to only those activities I, the grantor, granted to the grantee, the givernment. I can’t have my gardener telling me he is now going to tax me for managing my household, buy my groceries, planning my vacations, what skul (sic) my kids must attend, etc.. Givernment is the employee and the people are the employer. The Constitution starts out identifying the parties, “We The People”. The roles got reversed by Lincoln. So the only issue is then what is Constitutional and how much you want to spend on it. Under that scenario we’d probably have a flat tax rate of 9%. The easiest way to find the true tax rate is not have it be marginal. In other words you don’t have the guy, half of the wage earners today paying no net taxes, living off the other half of wage earners. Naturally the bottom half will always say you ain’t stealing enough for me. Treat all equally, just as the grocery store does, or the movie theatre does, or the car dealer does. I hire givernment no different then I hire these other goods and services. Now you want to see the proper function of givernment and the proper tax rate, go to a flat 9% to start and I suspect the poor will demand the rich only pay 5% so that they only have to pay 5%. And the next year it will be 2% and will get back to the numbers we worked at for over half the history of the nation. Communism, progressive confiscation, violates the laws of nature. I made excellent income running my company for years. I decided at the top of my game 4 years ago to quit. And mind you I love the action, but why work 105 hours a week at my age and give half to the givernment. I wasn’t going to eat any better, drive a better car, etc. So I decided the cost of givernment was too high and I didn’t want to buy the product anymore. This is going to become an epidemic in the next 10-15 years and the young kids are going to be crushed in taxes. The countries like Hong Kong, Asia in general that have low corporate taxes think they are in a recession if they don’t grow 9% a year. In commie USA we think we are having a growth bubble if it gets up to 3.5%. Well when givernment competes for resources, it always wins and strangles the economy. So if you really care about the poor, think about those poor folks on the dirt hill of Hong Kong that in a period of 30 years went form a dirt hill to the freest richest country in the world. No natural resources, no socialism, about a 9-14% tax rate during that period. Everybody prospered.
Sign Up to Post Your CommentsSign Up to Post Your Comments
If you are already registered, click here to login. Otherwise, please take a few seconds to register with Townhall.com. Once you sign up, you’ll be able to post your comments immediately, use the action center, get podcasts, and more!
Note: Fields marked with a red asterisk (*) are required.
Salutation:
First Name:
*
Last Name:
*
Email:
*
Nickname:
*
Note: Nick name will be shown when you post comments.
Address 1:
*
Address 2:
City:
*
State:
*
Zip:
*
Phone:
      
Your daily must-read of conservative columns, cartoons and news. Coulter, Sowell, Krauthammer and more.
(Bi-Weekly) We highlight the best opportunities from our partners for surveys, action items and more.