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Thursday, October 18, 2007
Wayne Grudem  :: Townhall.com Columnist
Why Evangelicals Should Support Mitt Romney
by Wayne Grudem
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As an evangelical professor of Bible and theology, I have decided to support Mitt Romney for President (even though he is a Mormon) for two old-fashioned reasons: First, he is the best-qualified candidate, and second, he holds moral and political values consistent with those in the Bible.

Best-qualified: The best predictor of future performance is a person’s past track record. Romney’s record is stellar:

Intellectual ability: He was in the top 5 percent of his class at Harvard Business School and simultaneously in the top 1/3 of his class at Harvard Law School. He is incredibly intelligent.

Governor of Massachusetts: He won the governor’s race as a Republican in Massachusetts and restored financial discipline to the state. He was a successful governor of a liberal state. This also means he has a good shot at winning some New England states away from the Democrats in the general election.

Business success: He was hired by Bain & Company, one of the elite business consulting firms in the country, and was so successful that he became a partner. He then founded Bain Capital and made it a highly successful investment company. He built a personal fortune of around $200,000,000 in the process, an amazing business achievement. He knows how to run businesses, and what makes them profitable. This indicates a deep and also practical understanding of what kind of policies will be helpful or harmful to an economy, and second, an outstanding management ability proven in both state government and in business, which is a good predictor of ability to be an excellent President. By contrast, no Democratic candidate has ever run a business, a state or even a city.

Chairman of Olympic Games: He also rescued the 2002 Salt Lake City Olympic Games. When he was brought in to run the Games he turned what was heading to a scandal-ridden financial and PR disaster into a widely-praised success. This involved massive skill in public relations, media management, diplomacy, morale building, and financial administration. This is Romney’s consistent track record: he solves large problems.

Conservative positions: Romney’s positions on social, economic, and international issues are all soundly conservative. On major issues such as protection of the unborn, a Constitutional amendment to protect marriage, strong national defense and victory against radical Islamic terrorists, securing our border, a signed pledge of no tax increases, promoting school choice, and appointment of Supreme Court justices who will interpret law, not make new law, Romney holds solidly conservative positions. His positions are the ones the majority of evangelicals have supported in the past.

Some people object that Romney has “flip-flopped” on some of these positions. I think that accusation is exaggerated. He hasn’t flip-flopped back and forth, he has simply become more consistently conservative. I think that’s a good thing in a political and media climate that is more and more liberal. (In fact, Ronald Reagan also changed from signing a liberal abortion law as governor of California to being a consistently pro-life president.) Evangelicals have worked for decades to persuade people of the pro-life position, and Romney has been persuaded, and he is strongly on our side on this issue.

What about his religion? Romney is a Mormon, and I strongly disagree with a significant number of Mormon theological beliefs, which I find to be inconsistent with the Bible and with historic Christian teachings. But many Mormon teachings on ethics and values are similar to those in the Bible, and those teachings support Romney’s conservative political values.

Can evangelicals support a candidate who is politically conservative but not an evangelical Christian? Yes, certainly. In fact, it would demonstrate the falsehood of the liberal accusation that evangelicals are just trying to make this a “Christian nation” and only want evangelical Christians in office. For evangelicals to support a Mormon candidate would be similar to supporting a conservative Jewish candidate—someone we don’t consider a Christian but who comes from a religious tradition that believes in absolute moral values very similar to those that Christians learn from the Bible. Here in Arizona a few years ago I voted for Matt Salmon, a Mormon candidate for governor. He lost, but his policies would have been much more conservative than those of Janet Napolitano, who has now vetoed dozens of pro-life, pro-family bills.

Or have we come to the point where evangelicals will only vote for people they consider Christians? I hope not, for nothing in the Bible says that people have to be born again Christians before they can be governmental authorities who are used greatly by God to advance his purposes. God used Pharaoh, King of Egypt, to raise Joseph to a position of authority over the whole country, so he could save his people from famine (Genesis 41:37-57). God used Nebuchadnezzar, King of Babylon, to protect and raise up Daniel and his Jewish friends to positions of high authority over Babylon (Daniel 2:46-49). God used Cyrus, King of Persia, to restore the Jewish exiles to their homeland (Isaiah 45:16; Ezra 1:1-4), and used Darius, King of Persia, to protect the Jewish people as they rebuilt the temple in Jerusalem (Ezra 6:1-12). God used Ahashuerus, King of Persia, to raise up Esther as Queen and to give Mordecai high authority and honor in his kingdom (Esther 6:10-11; 8:1-2, 7-15). In the New Testament age, God used the peace enforced by the secular Roman Empire, the Pax Romana, to enable the early Christians to travel freely and spread the Gospel throughout the Mediterranean world.

Here in the United States, God used not only Founding Fathers who were strong Christians, but also Deists such as Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson, to build the foundation of our nation. Jefferson even became our third President in 1801, a demonstration of the wisdom of Article 6 of the Constitution, which says, “no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.”

The Bible tells us to pray not just for Christians who happen to have government offices, but “for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way" (1 Timothy 2:2). It is not just Christians in government but all governing authorities who are “instituted by God” (Romans 13:1) and whom Paul can call “God’s servant for your good” (Romans 13:4).

People may object, “But a lot of people won’t vote for Romney because he’s a Mormon.” I suppose there will be some people like that, but there are three current and historical facts that make me think that problem will diminish as the campaign goes on: First, look to Massachusetts, where Romney won the governor’s race in a very liberal state because people saw his competence and common decency and elected him, and his Mormonism didn’t matter to them. Second, consider the situation in Iowa, where there are a lot of evangelicals, and Romney remains the front-runner in the polls. Third, remember Michigan, where Mitt Romney’s father George was a popular governor from 1963 to 1969, even though he was a Mormon.

When people get to know who Romney is, his Mormonism seems not to be a big deal in a political election. The hypothetical question, “Would you vote for a Mormon?” is very different from, “Now that you have gotten to know who Mitt Romney is, would you vote for him?” The more voters get to know him, the more his Mormonism doesn’t matter much.

Ability to win: Romney grew up in Michigan, where his father was governor, and he still has strong name recognition there. This gives him a good chance at winning some Midwest industrial states, a key to the election. And he would make Massachusetts highly competitive, since he was recently governor there. In fact, by winning the governor’s race as a Republican in a solidly Democratic state, he has proven that he can win large numbers of Democratic votes in an election.

In addition, I think Romney would not just tie but win in presidential debates against Hillary Clinton: he’s smarter, more articulate, and more experienced. And the conservative values he stands for still resonate with the majority of Americans. In addition, nearly everyone who has known Romney finds him genuinely likable, which would work to his advantage over Hillary’s abrasive personality in the long months of a campaign.

There are other Republican candidates with conservative positions, but they haven’t generated anywhere near as much support as Romney, probably because more and more voters are deciding that Romney is much better qualified (my point above), and that he is simply the best candidate: articulate, persuasive, intelligent, mature, strong, successful in several fields and a genuine leader.

Therefore it seems to me that supporting Mitt Romney who has a very reasonable chance of winning makes more sense at this point than supporting someone who is not persuading many Republican voters, or speculating about supporting a third-party candidate who can’t win and who would effectively hand Hillary Clinton 2 to 4 Supreme Court appointments and thereby undo 25 years of pro-life work in trying to change the Supreme Court.

The situation as it looks today: Apart from Romney, I don’t think there is any other solidly conservative candidate who can beat Giuliani in the primaries. As for McCain and Thompson, they are not reliably conservative. Among the “second-tier” candidates, there are some good men with solid positions, but they have not generated much support. With the early primary schedule nearly upon us it isn’t reasonable to hope that one of them will suddenly “take off.” There is not enough time now to build sufficient funding and a large enough support structure before January.

So it seems to me that if evangelicals don’t support Romney in a significant way, Giuliani will be the Republican candidate. So then we will have a pro-abortion, pro-gay rights candidate who is on his third marriage and had a messy affair prior to his divorce from his second wife. Then we will lose any high moral ground and the enthusiasm of the evangelical vote (many of whom will just sit it out), and the difference between Giuliani and Clinton will be only one of degrees as he shifts leftward in the general election to appeal to the “middle.” So then if we lose, we lose, and even if we win, we lose on the crucial moral issues of abortion and protection of marriage. Romney is a much better choice. But he needs evangelical support now if he is going to win.

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About The Author
Wayne Grudem, Ph.D. is a Research Professor of Bible and Theology at the Phoenix Seminary in Phoenix, AZ

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Patently false
Here in the United States, God used not only Founding Fathers who were strong Christians, but also Deists such as Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson, to build the foundation of our nation.
--------------
Neither man was a deist.
If you do not know this much......

Excellent points!
Correct on all accounts. Finally, an evangelical with a reasonable approach to voting, and an accurate analysis of this election.

Romney is competent. Nobody is liked by everybody, but it should be easily seen that Romney has experience, skills, and the intellect to handle difficult situations, and turn them around.

record
I don't find Romney's Mormonism any stumbing block at all. It's his record and pronouncements while running for the governorship and while in office, I find repellent. Funny how that was entirely overlooked but his business success was puffed.

Mitt maybe the best - Mormonism a cult
Mitt Romney MAY be the best choice for POTUS in 2008.

Mormonism IS definitely a cult.

I don't know how it is that serious Christian citizens can tie a man's religion to their support, or lack of support, of him as a candidate for office. I voted for GW Bush twice. I did not vote for him BECAUSE he was a Christian; I voted for him because the alternative was a loopy-environmentalist-whacko in one election and a pretentious-wannabe-war-hero in the second election.

If the next election pits a Mitt Romney against a socialist-adulterer-enabling-pandering-shrill-sounding-socialist-abortion-rights-militant, guess who I'll be voting for?

Romney The Shifty Used Car Salesman
I wouldn't buy a car from this guy. Don't trust him at all. Changes like a chamelion to suit his own political ambitions. Was once touted as someone left of Teddy Kennedy when running for governor. Can you get left of Teddy Kennedy? Is that even possible?

Fred Thompson is the consistent conservative candidate. Has always been pro-life. Is strong on border security. Is not pro-gay rights as Romney and Guilianni have both been. Strong on 2nd amendment protection. There is a reason that Fred has been polling ahead of Romney from the first moment he even hinted at running.

If you believe that the media is strongly liberal and that their interests are largely 180 degrees out from conservative Americans, then use their reporting of the candidates as a barometer of who they fear has the best chance of beating Hillary. That would be the candidate receiving the most negatives from the MSM and from political pundits. That would be Fred Thompson!

When the media is trying to steer you away from Fred you should be intelligent enough to ask yourself why? Don't they ultimately want Hillary in the white house? Why would they want to prop up and support the candidate who has the best chances of beating Hillary? If the media like one of our republican candidates it would only be because they feel this candidate would be a nice patsy for Hillary to roll over.

Don't buy into the crap they are saying about Fred. Listen to what he is saying. Look at what they are saying about him and then consider the motives behind the attacks. Fred is by far the candidate with the most to offer social conservatives. Fred didn't shift his social positions to run for president. He has maintained those conservative positions his entire life. Don't allow yourself to be herded along by the media to vote for who they would like you to vote.


Yes & no
phileo. You are correct in all points.

knight_of_baawa writes: "I would think that A Good Christian (tm) wouldn't want to wage war on others. Isn't christianity a peaceful religion? So why support a candidate who hawks for war?"

Christians doen't wage war for the reasons that the Islamo-fascist pigs do. Chriatins will defend themselves against such satanic pigs as "Islamo-fascists, communists & Nazis" as well as the savages who (for the sole purpose of intimidating Christians) murdered children, mothers & fathers in Waco.

plural wives
he's got my vote if he address public concerns about plural marriages.

To K of Baawa
Please don't speculate on how Christians should practice or believe when you don't know what Christ has said or what the tenets of our faith are. Your misunderstanding makes your point ineffective and irrelevant to this discussion.

Christ asks Christians to love their enemies, and do good to those who hate them, just as he did not revile those who spit upon, mocked, and crucified him, but loved them and prayed for them. This is what Christ called us to, and many Christians have lived and died, loving their enemies.

However, this personal practice of returning good for evil is not the same as pacifism during war. There is plenty of precedent in the old and new testaments of the Bible for fighting honorably and bravely for your nation in war, while loving the individual person on the opposing side. Not all Christians believe in going to war, and do extend that personal obligation of loving your enemy to the issue of national war. But not all Chbristians are pacifists, either.

Anyway, wouldn't it be wrong for a Christian presidential candidate to plan a policy of pacifism because of his religious convictions, and thus fail to lead in the military defense of the nation, wouldn't it? The job does entail being commander in chief of the armed forces.


Truly desperate
The Republican/Conservative sheeple are truly desperate in seeking a savior in the face of next year's impending tidal wave. Gee where are all these overconfident religious blowhards who thought they were going to turn America into some creepy Christian only theocracy? Zealotry can only get you so far!!!!

This is a tough choice.......
Which social liberal do I select to represent the United States of America? If I wish to be like Scandanavia, the EU, Canada, or Mexico, it really does not matter with the current tier of socially liberal candidates from the Republican or Democrat Parties. I respect the individual's intellectual capacity. I'm intolerant of neurotic behavior in its attempt to manipulate the masses by knowingly engaging in antisocial behavior.

I Could not agree more
A message that needs no explination, Any condemnation is only liveral baloney. And no matter how you slice it, it is still baloney.

Romney "solidly conservative"???
The author states:

"Apart from Romney, I don’t think there is any other solidly conservative candidate who can beat Giuliani in the primaries. As for McCain and Thompson, they are not reliably conservative."

Has he not looked into Romney's record at all?!?!? Say what you will, but his record is not that of someone "solidly conservative" and sure as heck not "reliably conservative".

There's a reason Romney hasn't gained much support, with is early lead in IA and NH (where he's dumped millions of his personal riches into TV ads) now slipping away- and I'm not convinced it has to do with his religion or name recognition- not after 9 months of campaigning, tens of millions spent and umpteen debates.

The Democrats were foolish to nominate a pandering, flip-flopping slickster like Kerry in 2004; the Republicans shouldn't make the same mistake in 2008.

http://www.evangelicalsformitt.org/
http://www.evangelicalsformitt.org/

I guess I'm feeling critical today
The "Best Qualified" portion of this article was probably best left out. Only one of the arguments (business experience) means anything. As for the others...
Re: Intellectual ability
Some of the most academically intelligent people I've known and worked with were also the most lacking in practicality and common sense.
Re: Governor
Clinton was a governor, too. Look where that got us.
Re: Olympic games involvement
Who cares?

As for ability to win, that's the same argument the Rudyists use. Until the Republican candidate is decided, doesn't it make more sense to support the candidate most represenative of your beliefs versus the "most likely to win" candidate? What does jumping on the bandwagon say about personal convictions?

Honestly, if you want to tell people to vote someone, use some meaty logic and real info. This article sounds like cheerleading and a weak attempt at emotional persuasion.

http://www.evangelicalsformitt.org/
http://www.evangelicalsformitt.org/

The Deciders

The corporate owners of The Unified Establishment Party* are already shifting funding from Rudy to Hillary. They don't care which one wins. They win either way. The RNC and the DNC are two divisions under the same ownership. The cheap labor express will be kept running, regardless of the will of the people.

That is, unless we nominate and elect someone who actually WILL secure the border and enforce the laws. It's up to us to save the GOP from itself and bring it back to its principles. The "handlers" have to be shown the door by voting your conscience in the primaries. Stop listening to the spin and hype, decide for yourself who best represents your values. If a cross-dressing, former mayor of a sanctuary city who marches in gay pride parades reflects your values, vote for Rudy. If that does not reflect your values, figure out who does and vote accordingly. We can nominate someone other than the MSM's choice. It's our country, we are the deciders.

*(h/t Pasadena Phil)

http://www.evangelicalsformitt.org/
http://www.evangelicalsformitt.org/

http://www.evangelicalsformitt.org/
http://www.evangelicalsformitt.org/

Ron Paul
Why aren't more evangelicals supporting Ron Paul? Or Mike Huckabee? Either one of them would be a better choice than Romney. Sure, Romney trumps Giuliani...but should we be content with that? It's also difficult for me to take seriously and follow someone who has bought into the Mormon delusion.

Romney is our best hope
for a conservative presidency.

I like Rudy (who doesn't - apart from his past wives), but his presidency will not be a conservative one, apart from his prosecution of the war. On every other social issue, he's basically a democrat.

Mitt gave some concessions while running in MA - but governed very conservatively. Look at his track record and it speaks for itself.

And as for brains, he's heads and shoulders above the rest of the field.

A good conservative
Frankly, I think Mitt Romney did a great job of surviving and thriving in Massachusetts, a state as liberal and blue as the night is long. I wouldn't hesitate to support him if he is the nominated candidate, even though he isn't my favorite.

And I'm a Christian, too. Gee, I bet Knight of what's-his-face has problems with my attitude.

Mitt is a very smart man, and a leader with natural ability. I have absolutely no concern that his religion would in any way interfere with his serving as President. If Joe Lieberman were running, I would feel the same way. At the president level of campaigning, it is simply inconceivable that a candidate will subjigate his campaign and platform to his religious belief.

Romney is Scarey
He seems like he got all the right Fixes.

Now he wants to do away with the UN and set up His own World Body.

I can see all the cultists running there with him. Next he'll have the Middle East Plan for Peace that the Jews will run to and embrace. He's got the Charisma to far in persuading many.

Next He'll ... Say "Fooled You".

I just don't trust him...He seems like a wolf in Sheeps clothing to me.

Romney...
would be a continuation of Bush. How pathetic religious Conservatives like Bob Jones have gone from supporting Reagan to the likes of this guy. Just goes to show that conservatives generally are after precisely what the leftists are after - government power to dictate.

Romney makes me uncomfortable with his

mandatory "Mass Socialized Health Care law."

I'm not quite sure he's the "one" to be pres., but there is no doubt that he's a brilliant financial man. I could easily see Romney as Treasury Sec.



why evangelicals should support Mitt
ignorant, apathy, and bigotry ............ The Value Voter Summit is this weekend with a straw poll Saturday night.This Christian vote will seal the deal for ANN'S HUSBAND of 38 years. Ann Romney... our next first lady

Listen to Grudem
For conservative Christians, yes, the idea of voting for someone of a different religious stance should raise questions. People should thoughtfully consider political decisions that effect the future of our country.

I trust Grudem on political issues, last year at the Evangelical Theological Society in Washington D.C Dr. Grudem offered a thoughtful and precise analysis on the Bush presidency. Hearing an Evangelical Scholar lecture on issues of polity and government was refreshing.

I would advise you to listen hear. Though Romny's religious stance my cause doubt, his political stance is solid.

What should we make of politicians how claim certain religious stances anyway? Clinton and Carter claim to be Southern Baptists?

anti-Christians keep spreading garbage
knight_of_baawa writes: "But we haven't been attacked by Iraq or Iran, so the christians who support the war are acting like the "islamo-fascists" (I laugh at that term)."

Obviously a liar as we were attached by islamo-fascists (supported by both Iran and Iraq) on 9/11. Our military doesn't lower themselves to the level of those satanic ilamo-fascist pigs - otherwise neither Ira* would be on the face of the earth).

(True Christians would have no connection with anti-christ knight_of_baawa who attempts to fool people into believing his anti-christian words. He's just another committed puppet of satan.)




Mitt the Man
Look at Mitt's family; his being there for them through all of the challenges of both business and "politics", (also known to members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as "Service")is, for me, the deciding factor. Families can be forever and working toward that end requires patience, wisdom, personal dedication, faith, and humility, all the greatest qualifications for being POTUS.

For anyone thinking about not .....
voting. I would suggest taking a look at San Francisco and for that matter the whole state of California if you need to be reminded why Demosocialism needs to be stopped.

We need to stay in the ballgame to have any hope of combating where this country is headed. Hillary or whoever can be beat if we can all put our freedom ahead of our personal ideals. If we retain our freedom we will have another day to debate our personal preferences.

Conservatives aren't good at accepting mediocrity but Liberals are and that is why what San Francisco has become has slipped up on us. They are willing to take us one inch at a time.

We have given up too much ground.


Carnal
Here's a blog written by an Evangelical Christian who actually knows what he's talking about, as he actually witnesses to Mormons and knows about the (spiritual) battle.

Check out:

http://romneyforpresident.townhall.com/

Like Mormonism, the blog isn't what it seems.

(Funny photos too.)


Anne - you're wrong
The Mass. system is not socialized medicine. It is an effective way to make sure everyone is insured by using the money already spent in a more efficient way. And it does not mandate government healthcare, but private insurance.

I'm sorry to break it to you, but Romney is going for the whole tomato, not treasury secretary, and I believe he wil not only get the nomination, but the presidency as well.

Also Anne
Romney has never said that he favors a federal program - he wants to help individual states solve their healthcare issues and has just offered the Mass plan as a starting point for ideas.

He does NOT want a big government program such as hillary care. Yikes!

Carnal
Here's a blog written by an Evangelical Christian who actually knows what he's talking about, as he actually witnesses to Mormons and has been in the (spiritual) battle.

Check out:

http://romneyforpresident.townhall.com/

Like Mormonism, the blog isn't what it seems.

(Funny photos too.)

Please go to PeterPriesthood's link
I urge everyone to go to the link and read a little. Don't worry - it won't take long and it's well worth it if you want to know what the typical anti-mormon bigot posters here at TH are really like - you'll get a pretty good idea. You know, people like Jack is full of shiite, Ray, Bigspoon65, Gabby, etc.

The site speaks for itself. Enjoy.


Oh, sorry PeterPriesthood
I accidentally left you out of the Anti-Mormon Bigot Brigade. My apologies!

Sorry bigspoon65
I mistakenly mentioned you in the above post as one of the regular anti-mormon posters. I'm sorry.

Vote for an Evangelical
There are Evangelical Christians running you know. I'm supporting Mike Huckabee. He's the CONSISTENT social conservative. He a conservative with new ideas. He supports the Fair Tax and getting rid of the IRS. He's not plastic and robotic, like Mitt Romney. He's the most engaging and energetic speaker on either side. AND he's now in second place in Iowa and quickly closing in on Romney who has remained rather static in the polls. Evangelicals can vote for an evangelical, Mike Huckabee.

Tancredo would be my first choice
But Tancredo may be a wasted vote.I am a Christian. And most religions including the Church of the Latter Day Saints appear to be ridiculous to me.

But I neve met a Mormon tha I didn't like and respect. And that includes Mitt Romney. I met him aroung 1968 at the Stanford Daily office. One thing I can contribute is that Mitt had a genuine sense of humor. Our two most recent Presidents just did not know how to laugh.

Mitt, at least knows how to talk like a conservative. Who else in the race does. And we don't need another dummy like Thompson that just sounds conservative. After McCaine/Feingold we know that the dummy doesn't have an inkling of what the Constitution means. Mitt knows. We need a capable leader. Mitt is. We need a leader who lives an exemplary moral life. Mitt does. We need a man who really understands the needs of the business community.

When Mitt goes to the International community we can be proud for the first time since Reagan. Let's not pick another uncharismatic boring dead pan poker faced nonentity.

Oh yeah, Mitt isn't as well known as the New York guy; But he is even more charismatic.

Like I said. I never met a Mormon I didn't like. I am really considering Mitt.

Sorry, No.
I'm rather surprised at the logic that lumps Mormons with mere non-evangelicals... and then makes the case it's ok to vote for them too. Evangelicalism has long held that Mormonism is a cult... ie false teachers claiming to be Christian while teaching people into hell.

And why now? Given the apparently inevitability of a Republican loss in 2008, it hardly seems the time to shift toward pragmatism at the expense of principle.


Romney, no way.
I'm sorry, but claiming to be a changed person on gun rights, abortion, and other hot button topics, Romney is no leader I want in the White House.

His past track record of Governor was entirely tucked away from the public. And I am not condeming him for his Mormonism, I just can't trust Romney when he speaks out of two sides of his mouth.

Like Giuliani on guns, he states he is for the Second Amendment, but was for the ban on so called "assault weapons". Doublespeak such as with these two insiders are just something America does not need. If you can't understand what the Founding Fathers put in the Constitution in plain language, then they don't need to hold the office.

Mitt, go run for Commissioner of Baseball, and clean up the crap that eminates from that professional sport. Of course, you can't use doublespeak to ban steroids while cranking out homers when the fans are in the stands.......

Without appologies.........

Reasoned
This is a very well thought out and reasoned article. If evangelicals can support conservative Jews they can support Romney.


This is outstanding writing
It would be too tragic if evangelicals cannot bring themselves to support Mitt against Hillary because of religious intolerance. Way too funny if the stakes weren't so high but, they are.:(

My 2 Cents
Mormonism a cult? Hmmm...
I normally don't talk about religion publicly, but I recently blogged my experience being a Mormon.
http://www.clintrogersonline.com/blog

Although I don't think of myself as suitable to be any kind of official representative of the faith, on the whole I find it to be a community that cares about their families, and contributes their talents and resources to their community and world in the best ways they know how.

But this article really wasn't about Mormonism, it was about Mitt Romney.

What I don't like about Mitt:
- the media has done a good job of making me skeptical regarding the convenience of his changing opinions,
- calling the UN a failure doesn't seem like the wisest thing to do from an international standpoint. Sure it undoubtedly has some major flaws, but I don't think of the entire organization as a failure.

Of course, it is easier to be critical from a distance - not having the whole context.

What I like:
- he seems intelligent and capable of accomplishing difficult things,
- the ability to endure so much criticism and still remain optimistic seems like a talent,
- i don't know him, but it appears as if generally his motivations seem decent even if his approach somehow strikes me as awkward at times.



Barney
Have you been having nightmares about black helicopter?

Mitt and Mormonism
As an Evangelical resident of Massachusetts who BIBLICALLY considers Mormonism to be a cult despite it's good moral precepts, I have no problem with a Mormon president of the US as long as he doesn't try to turn our government into a copy of Utah's pre-statehood Mormon government.

Having said that, despite the fact I think that as governor, Mitt could have come out more strongly pro-life and anti-homosexual, I strongly favor his anti-UN and anti-spending Constitutionally based economics ( at least as compared to the other first-tiered candidates). The only thing that troubles me is that, as a businessman, Romney, like Bush, seems to be a friend of China. To me doing business with the butchers of Beijing today is like doing business
with the Nazis in the late 1930's. Except for this, he would have gotten my vote in the primary. Though I consider myself a faithful though unworthy follower of Jesus Christ, faithlfullness will not stop us from being intimidated or blasted into submission from the modern China that the Clinton's, the Bushes, and business enablers like Romney have given us.

Romney is the one....
I keep hearing cries for support for Fred Thompson, and frankly, I don't get it.

The man has flatly said that he does not support the Federal Marriage Amendment. When presented with the hypothetical situation of a state voting for gay marriage, his response? "So be it." Is that the kind of leadership we want? Romney supports the amendment and spoke before the Senate in its favor when it first came up for a vote there.

Fred Thompson doesn't even see church as important enough to spend time at on his Sunday mornings. I ask: how is he somehow any better than a Mormon with views like those--a Mormon who was a church leader, nonetheless?

He has also said he opposes the criminalization of abortion. I ask how that's even a Pro-Life view? Abortion is an act of pre-meditated murder, and the 14th amendment SHOULD apply to the unborn: "Nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law."

Fred Thompson obviously doesn't think it should.

If marriage is going to be a cornerstone of our civilization, it needs to be between a man or a woman, and it needs to be addressed at the federal level. Fred Thompson is so in love with the idea of federalism that he lets it get in the way of good sense. It's also why he is wrong on tort reform. Venue shopping has been going on for ages in this country. Lawyers file suit in a state with lawsuit-friendly laws and then drag in parties from across the country into a state where the laws are friendly.

Romney is consistently right. Thompson consistently wrong. Yeah, Romney is a Mormon and yeah he altered his view. But that view has become increasingly Pro-Life since 1994. It was more conservative in 2002. And he has since become a leader in the movement. Let him lead. Why waste time with Thompson, who doesn't seem at all willing to budge from a wholly unacceptable position?

because
he believes that joseph smith visited with Jesus Christ (in the flesh) in ohio in 1837.

It's good to see Romney
Adopting more of Ron Paul's platform.

But Dr. Paul's record is consistently, unequivocally converative. He has advocated the U.S. withdrawal not only from the U.N., but from NAFTA, the WTO and GATT throughout his two decade career, as these pseudo free trade agreements undermine our sovereignty and gut our manufacturing base.

Recognizing that the income tax and privately-owned central bank (The Federal Reserve) are inimical to free citizens and the cause of most chaos in the financial and labor markets, Paul bests Romney by seeking to abolish the Fed, phase out the income tax and thereby restore to productive Americans the ownership of their peaceful, productive labor. This would further serve to liberate our great nation from continued dependence on Saudi Arabia and China to prop up our unbacked currency.

Ron Paul does not regard the United States as World Cop; he refrains from rattling the sabre at Iran. He has always opposed amnesty and birthright citizenship for illegals and their children. He is fiercely pro-life. He advocates small federal government and strong states. A champion of individual rights, he rails against the Patriot Act.

The youtube videos of Romney espousing decidedly liberal positions are ample. Mitt may otherwise be the lesser of several RINO evils, but Ron Paul offers what may be out last chance to revitalize true liberty as envisioned by our founders and delineated in the constitution.

Thanks
A good article, well reasoned.

Romney is a very impressive person.

BigSpoon must not have read Kathleen
Parker's column of about 10 days ago.

Fred Thompson is putting people to sleep on the campaign trail.

If he can't manage to be interesting to his audiences in the few weeks he has been in the campaign, HOW is he ever going to have the skills and energy (and work ethic) to perform the JOB of POTUS?

Hollowpoint, your points ARE "hollow"
and without merit.

You sound like another Ron Paul acolyte who spews hate about any other Republican candidate.

Why Evangelicals Should Not Support Mitt
I wonder whether the same arguments that Wayne Grudem is advancing would be tenable if a candidate who had an impeccable track record in business who nonetheless was a homosexual and not a mormon. Would he still court him? If Wayne wishes to support Mitt he must do it as an individual. I do not believe he has any biblical warrant to canvas support from Evangelical christians. Christians as individuals must pray before they cast their vote and not listen to misleading statements from so called christian heavywieghts like Wayne. It is a great sin to minimise cults like Mormornism. Besides the same verses that Wayne is quoting of pagan kings who God used in the past were not elected by anyone! God will use them whichever way they ascend to their throne. What is even worse Wayne seems to show more confidence in the institutions of fallible men than in the Sovereign Ruler of the skies. It mught be salutary for you to remember that will not be nervous because a Clinton is elected President of the United States or that a Guliani is adopted of the Republican party. Gods will will still be done regardles of whoever assumes the presidency!

Romney - not a conservative
how can any self-professed conservative support Romney?

Abortion: he was pro-life before running against Chappaquidick Teddy, then, before running for governor, he had an "epiphany" and became pro-choice (convenient). He remained pro-choice throughout his tenure as governor (the popular position in MA). Then, he decided to run for president as a Republican... and had another "epiphany." He became pro-life because "life was being disrespected" or some such spin.

Mitt passed an inane "assault weapons ban" (the popular choice in MA), then ran for president as a Republican... and bought a lifetime NRA membership. Interesting.

Sorry, Mitt - my IQ is >70, so I'm not buying. You're another phony pol who will say anything to get elected. Have some principles and stick with them. Don't insult my intelligence with your "evolving" principles... especially when your "evolution" always seems to coincide with the popular viewpoint.

Mormon is Christian
It is the only religion out there that follows the guidlines set forth in the New Testiment established by Jesus Christ on earth.

I would turn around and say all these other alleged Christians are not really Christian... but that would not be very Christ like to do so and I would rather follow in his footsteps than yours any day.

I can understand the hostility though as when a person has been in the dark all their life and the light finally shines on them, they may wince as they cover their face but as their eyes adjust they will come to see the truth and come to know Christ.

Heresy plus mandatory health care: NO!
Romney actually believes in an angel called "Moroni" a ridiculous figment concocted by the delusional Joseph Smith who founded this weird cult.

Gimee a break!

And if Romney believes in "Jesus" its "a Jesus" other than the Jesus of the New Testament.

In fact, it’s the Jesus that Mormon whackos believe is the spiritual brother of lucifer. Paul warned Christians against those who preach "another Jesus" and other Gospels-like the heretical "book of mormon". Read Second Corinthians 11:4.

Indeed, the Epistle of Jude, verse three (3) tells us that there is no new faith or relevation-the faith was once and all for all delivered to the saints in the first century.

Therefore, Joseph Smith was either liar or a demented heretic.

I can't believe these panic stricken Christians who are so petrified of Ms Clinton that they think they have to rally around a flip flopping Massachusetts liberal who inposed a mandatory health insurance policy on all masasachusetts citizens-with the collaboration of his friend Ted kennedy.

Thats not a conservative ideal its Mitt's version of Hillary Care! Yes, Hillary too believes in a Romney style mandatory health insurance policy to be inflicted upon all Americans-whether they want, or can afford to purchase it. No thanks, Mitt.

Actually, Romney is the *only* GOP candidate that Hillary can actually defeat in the general election. I won/t vote if Romney is the nominee. And neither should any Bible Believing, Biblically literate Christian.

http://www.greatcom.org/resources/handbook_of_todays_religi ons/01chap06/default.htm



jcdean - Not true, on each count.

I was skimming through the comments here, not intending to post at all, but when someone throws down the guantlet in the following manner, I have an obligation to respond.



jcdean: "Mormon is Christian - It is the only religion out there that follows the guidlines set forth in the New Testiment established by Jesus Christ on earth."


I don’t doubt that you believe your statement is true, but your comment is false, and it must be confronted.


You cannot credibly sustain the claim that the Mormon religion “follows the guidlines set forth in the New Testiment”.


More importantly, there is a church that actually DOES follow those guidelines, and you can find it, and investigate it for yourself.



~~~



jcdean: "I would turn around and say all these other alleged Christians are not really Christian... but that would not be very Christ like to do so and I would rather follow in his footsteps than yours any day.”


There are going to be at least two problems if you persist in your claims, neither of which I think you can overcome:


1) You will be unable to substantiate the claim that “all these alleged Christians are not really Christian”


2) You cannot reconcile or harmonize your claim that a “Mormon is Christian” with all of the “guidlines set forth in the New Testiment established by Jesus Christ on earth”.



~~~



jcdean: "I can understand the hostility though as when a person has been in the dark all their life and the light finally shines on them, they may wince as they cover their face but as their eyes adjust they will come to see the truth and come to know Christ.”


Zeal can certainly be good, as long as you follow it to the truth, and the truth is found in God’s Word in the Bible.


Not in “another testament”; in the New Testament.


That is the truth, and if you keep looking for it, I believe you will find it.



Another point of view
I hope everybody agrees that when forming an opinion, the best way is to hear both sides of the story with an open mind and thoughtfully and carefully consider both. After reading the negative things that have been said about Mormons, I would like to offer my point of view.

To start, I will say that I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints or as some people would label me - a Mormon. Obviously I'm biased in my opinion but it also allows me to offer an experts viewpoint.

I normally don't like to talk about my religion in a public forum like this. I think one's religion is a very personal choice - one between that individual and God. However, when I heard some things people said about Mormons, I just felt like I needed to stick up for some of the neatest, nicest, most genuinely caring and charitable people I've met in my entire life. I've seen folks who are willing to make great sacrifices anonymously. I've witnessed thousands of people doing very simple and loving things for their neighbors. I've been in many countries around the world and have seen the wonderful change that Mormon teachings about Jesus Christ have made in peoples' lives.

I have been going to the LDS Church now for over 15 years. I have never met a Mormon that I would consider a "wacko". As a matter of fact, I've never known anybody that had a Mormon as a friend that thought that his or her beliefs about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints were a negative thing. Why such close-minded and mean spirited words about Mormons?

I just hope people can be a little more careful when labeling Romney and a group of 14 million people as wackos who are just trying to be good in the manner they think is best.

Having said that
I don't think this is a place where debate about religion should happen. Actually I don't think the way to religious truth comes from debate.

If there is to be debate about religion relative to Mitt Romney, I hope it centers on whether or not Romney is the kind of person who would force his religious beliefs upon others with his influence as President of the U.S.

I don't think you will find any evidence from any of his conduct in his personal life, business life, or public life that would support that conclusion. If there is, then certainly let there be discussion on it. I think you will actually find more evidence showing that he wouldn't try and force his religious beliefs upon the public.

I hope we can get away from the debate on which religion is right or wrong especially with regard to Mitt Romney's (or any other candidate's) run for the Presidency. That sort of discussion really is pointless in this forum.

Mr. Momney was alway Pro-Life
al wrote: Friday, October, 19, 2007 2:09 AM
"Romney - not a conservative "

A brief History may change your opinion.

1990 Pro-Life Believed that Abortions should be safe and legal for Rape, incest, and where the mothers life was endangered and it was the only way to save her.

You will note in the manual of family planning, abortions are not part of Mass family planning and can be found here
http://www.mass.gov/gic/spd/nhpspdfy08.pdf.

Found in the Q. Glossary
...Abortion is not a Family Planning Service (see Section F. Covered Health Care Services, or contact Neighborhood Health Plan for more information)."

Mr. Romney is Pro-life Was considered effectively Pro-Choice as governor though personally is pro-life. The Law of Mass. was legally pro-choice. for this motive he promised not to change the current law, if elected, so he did not change the law on ethical grounds, even though in his view it is morally wrong.

Furthermore, when they tried to change the law and to push the legalization of live stem cell research he refused and sought to protect human life at its most vulnerable stage.

He refused to support the pro-choice agenda on his personal convictions. This position is reported in the New York Times.

Mr. Romney is Pro-life Massachusetts Governor Opposes Stem Cell Work
By PAM BELLUCK
Published: February 10, 2005, a year before he announced he would run for as a candidate.

This is not the place to disguss
Mr. Romney's Religion, because it is gossip and hearsay, unless you invite Mr. Romney to join in the discussion, to verify your version.

This stabbing is an indication of your own character. Which really does not convince that you are a Christian your self.

Where does Your Christ say you are to condemn another’s heart felt worship of God according to the dictates of their conscience? I would suggest that you are just a liberal spooler seeking to divide Christians who seek to protect the values that have made America Great.

As you know by our fruits we are known.

(New Testament | John 13:34 - 35)
34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

(New Testament | Matthew 5:43 - 44)
43 ¶ Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Be kind to dumb animals!

Christians Do Not Start Wars !
Every recent war was started by non Christians but Christians are blamed all the same.

Weak Christians are those that will hide behind their Christianty and allow non Christians to rule over them and then wonder what went wrong..

Strong Christians know that fighting against evil may require their earthly lives. Strong Christians know that what they are the "salt of the earth" that requires more than a religious belief..it requires selfless fights against evil...Yes even fighting in a war to save innocent lives.

As for Romney...If he believes Christ is the Saviour of mankind...that is all I need to know.

Jesus said to one of disciples
whether they teach error or truth,as long as they preach "Christ" leave them alone.
(Paraphased)

Mitt's Religion: 1st Centur Christianity
Mitt’s church, the Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) has been often misunderstood by Evangelical preachers in the past . . Some accused the Church of not believing in Christ and, therefore, not being a Christian religion . .

http://MormonsAreChristian.blogspot.com/ helps to clarify such misconceptions by examining early (First Century) Christianity's theology relating to baptism, the Godhead, the deity of Jesus Christ and His Atonement. Mitt’s church believes in the Jesus of the New Testament, who prayed to his Father in Heaven in the Garden of Gethsemane, not the Jesus portrayed in the creeds of the 4th Century.

The Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) adheres to Early Christian (New Testament) theology more closely than other Christian denominations. . Perhaps the reason Evangelical preachers promoted this mis-representation was to protect their flock (and their livlihood). It is encouraging to note that Evangelical preachers appear now to have a moral and competent president as a priority..


Modern Churches Have No Credibility
When Christians become Denomination Worshippers and declare that they are the only true church they have lost the whole purpose of the Christian lifestyle.

I am a Christian (Baptist). I no longer go to church since I found that my Baptist church cares little about those outside the church or other Christian denominations..

When Christians judge other Christians to promote some denominational movemennt, it is not Biblical. Christ did not belong to a denomination.

All that is required of Christians is to believe that Christ was the son of God and Saviour for the world.

That is it..Repent and trust in Christ...nothing more.

Useful idiots.
knight_of_baawa writes:

"When and if WWIII is launched, it will be Armageddon George who does it. His religion holds that this would enable the return of the Prince of War to put the Christian Right in charge for 1,000 years, with everyone else a footstool under their feet. And we are supposed to worry about Islam."

Where'd you get your Bible? Walmart? Please provide a quote where the POTUS has said this.

In contrast here's a quote from a speach the Prez of Iran gave just two months ago.

"The current problems faced by the world result from [the rule] of unworthy rulers. The ultimate solution is to replace these unworthy regimes and rulers, and to establish the rule of the Hidden Imam...Those who are not versed in [the doctrine of Mahdism] believe that the return [of the Hidden Imam] will occur only in a very long time, but, according to the divine promise, [his return] is imminent...The Iranian nation and the Islamic Revolution have a pivotal role in preparing the ground for the coming of the Hidden Imam... We must rapidly develop Iran in order to create the [right] conditions for his coming, and we must also help the rest of the world's nations [to prepare for his return], in order to precipitate this great event..."

Speak for your own church
Globug writes:

"I am a Christian (Baptist). I no longer go to church since I found that my Baptist church cares little about those outside the church or other Christian denominations.."

Maybe the problem is with your church. My church does a lot in the community and with other denominations. You shouldn't paint with such a broad brush.

ALL
In between crushing the libchildren, clcik on my handle to check out TH's NUMBER ONE BLOG!

knight_of_baawa
WW III has already been fought and won by the USA. It was the Cold War started at Yalta by FDR. It was won by Reagan.

WW IV is being waged right now agains thte Islamofascists and their liberal allies.

Say what?
""he holds moral and political values consistent with those in the Bible.""

I don't see this as a truth, since the mormon religion is a cult which by definition goes against what the Bible is all about. Sorry Wayne I have to disagree.

I want a President of quality not a ....
............religious test for that office. The sixth amendment says, No religious test shall be administered. Enough said.

Of course, those so unhappy with a CULT, can have a totally anti religious nut case like Hellary or her near equal Ruddy. (very rude).

Folks, you're going to get a president. You can have quality or you can have H&ll on wheels. Make up your minds.


romneys fatal flaw
ask voters about Romney's flip-flops, and they speak out loud. In a recent Des Moines Register poll, likely caucus attendees listed Romney's multiple positions as his biggest liability—on par with Rudy Giuliani's pro-choice stance on abortion. In a Pew Center poll, only 12 percent of respondents thought of Mitt Romney when the word honest was presented to them, the lowest of the four major Republican candidates. A Washington Post/ABC News poll showed that only 13 percent of Republicans find Mitt Romney honest and trustworthy, also the lowest of the four major Republican candidates. A CNN/Opinion Research poll found that 15 percent of adults found Mitt Romney to be the most honest—again, the bottom of the field.

Like all of the big questions that dog the candidates, this problem has been with Romney for a while—even before the presidential race. "He's not pro-choice or anti-choice," said Senate opponent Ted Kennedy in 1994. "He's multiple choice." Romney hasn't been able to dispense with questions about his constancy, and the concerns are only becoming more relevant as Republicans fight over which candidate is a more genuine conservative.


My dear mother:

.......was raised by deep south, bible thumping, seriously get in your face parents. But she married my Episcopalian (need I say Catholic) father who drove my grandfather away from the table at least once when he insisted upon praying for the soul of my father and doing it right in front of the kids.

I think mama realized that anything taken to it's extreme will not work in real life with real people.

(my name), son, some people cut off there nose to spite there own face. I probably remember those particular words above any others from her because she said it like she meant it.

Well this column is "full" of those words coming from a wide spectrum of nose cutter offers. Just keep it up folks. Keep talking about one of the least important points you could possibly spout.

If Romney has changed his opinion, he sure isn't afraid to spout the new one. He's not a fence sitter, and I don't think he's a hypocrite.

Have at it. Screw the country. Your small minded opinion is, of course, what really counts. Gee, did I say that. Yes, I did.


About Mitt Romney and Mormonism
Someone here said that they wanted to hear what Romney would say about polygamy before voting for him. I saw him say on TV: "I can't imagine anything more AWFUL [his emphasis] than polygamy." The LDS church has outlawed polygamy since 1896. They excommunicate anyone who practices it. I don't understand why people don't know this. The so-called "Mormons" who practice polygamy in Utah don't belong to the LDS church. They have their own churches, but give them names that sound like the LDS church, e.g., "the New Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints," or something.

As I read in Newsweek, When the 14-year-old daughter of one of Romney's business friends went missing, Romney SHUT HIS BUSINESS DOWN, and all the employees went to New York City to look for her. Thankfully they found her, and she was OK. He's a good man. Can you imagine any other businessman shutting down his business to go look for a missing person?

Liberals out in Force
Boy, reading all the liberals comments here it is plain to see that they are on a divide and conquer tear. They are scared to death of Mitt Romney run over the "shopaholic" Hillary Clinton. They know it would be the end of big government spending and give away programs. No one has proven fiscal responsibility the way Mitt has.
For those who want a real look inside the mind of Mitt Romney I suggest his book "Turnaround" about how he handled the fiasco that was the Salt Lake City Winter Olympics.

NO Mitt for Pres.
1. Mitt did well for his family because of his family's (Daddy) financial status.
2. Mitt did well in Mass.- governor as a Republican. John and Ted couldn't stop him or John and Ted didn't want to? Something is rotten in Denmark, er, Mass.
3.Lucifer will be proud. The first openly luceferian President. That's right, you know, Jesus' OTHER brother Lucifer. As a Teacher of Christian Theology and Doctrine, you ought to know what LDS believes. At least you should know that LDS believes that everybody else's belief in Christ is at the least misinterpreted, but actually just wrong. After all divining out of a top hat gives you the only true revelation of Elohim. You know, that god who lived on that other planet as a man and became a god. Funny how the creator of the universe, sorry, that man-to-god couldn't keep his first message pure. If he couldn't do that then he's not much of a god if you ask me.
5. South Park episode on Mormonism explains it best. If you haven't seen it, see it. It will be the most widely watched episode on Youtube.

SoldierOfTruth1

I think you are right about the liberal bloggers who under cover of attacking Romney are actually, in a number of cases, not all, just liberal gang bangers coming in to stir things up.

Regular THers know who belongs here and who is just slipping in under the cover of darkness to cut support for Romney, Hellary's nemesis.

I support people like talent scout when he expresses his opinion unfavorable to Romney. Talent scout has earned his wings. But when I see new names (to me) like Bloody axe, my sensors go on full alert. Me thinks bloody axes are just that, the assassins tools.


Amazing stuff !!!
Interestingly (perhaps), after pouring through opinions galore, a thought occured -- namely, that if I were a lazy person who could not keep up with events, quotes, socialistic propaganda and assorted evangelical crap, I've come to the conclusion that I would NOT vote for any candidate backed by (1) the unions, (2) James Dobson, (3) Jesse Jackson, (4) Pat Robertson, Ed Shultz, (5) Jim McDurmett, and a few others....
As a Deist and "small-L" Libertarian, a pox on all of their houses. So there!

To all cocerned...
I do not like the previous positions that Mitt took while running in MA either. But, he has promised US different things. He may have had a conservative epiphany, or he may just be a flip-flopper. I DON't care! Giuliani is unacceptable. Mitt is articulate, and will be impressive on a stage opposite Hillary. And, once elected, he will be beholden to US for pomises made. Hillary will be beholden to liberals. Think about THAT! No one else can beat Rudy, anf he must be stopped for the good of the republic, and the Republican party. Wake up. Mitt isn't perfect, but he's the best we've seen in 20 years.

Vote Mitt. Stop Rudy!

@ Scott
The truth is what is is reguardless if you choose not to see it.

There is nothing in the Book of Mormon which changes aything from the Old or New Testiment but perhaps your perception of it. If you would take the time to look at how the Old and New Testiment were compiled then you would understand that not all books are accounted for nor are all books complete.

Everything in the LDS Church goes hand in hand with the King James Bible. The Book of Mormon only tells more of what Jesus did on this Earth but does not change anything of his works.

The LDS Church is the ONLY Church on the face of this earth that is established with the authority of Jesus Christ organized as he himself had it when he came to earth.

Again I say that Mormons or LDS are Christians in the truest sense following in the footsteps of Jesus Christ and the Church he established here on earth.

Reguardless of what you choose to believe, it does not change the truth. If you would open up your eyes and humble yourself then you would too would be brought out of the dark to see the light.


Momney
I am practicing imperfect Catholic who was raised by a Potestant Mother and a Catholic Father. My wife of 60 years and I raised 7 children, one of whom is an Atheist, 5 are Protestant and one(and his Japaneese wife) who follows the Catholic tradition.
They are all moral ,upright people and I am proud of them.
I agree whole heartly with Mr. Wayne Gruden.
This ex Marine will vote for Mitt.

Semper Fi

Rommne, Romney, that is.
Please excuse the typo in the forgoning comment. At 86 years of age I do mke typo errors.
My mans name is Mitt Romney

Bill Mulgrew

Rommney Romney, that is.
Please excuse the typo in the forgoning comment. At 86 years of age I do mke typo errors.
My mans name is Mitt Romney

Bill Mulgrew

Good Argument! One Question, Tho
I've posted in favor of Romney before, for the reasons in this column, though not as well stated.

Okay! Now: Joseph Farah once pointed out the definition of Fascism, as being that where government has its hand in business (to paraphrase loosely.)

Once the relatively picayune "Mormon" question is out of the way, will Romney separate commerce from state????

I like the notion of separating church, commerce, and politics from each other.

jcdean
scott an i rarely agree but your claim is an affront to all Christians.

there is no way you can make those claims.

so you literally believe that Jesus Christ in the flesh met with joseph smith in ohio right?

also, explain how all mormons will be Gods in heaven and have all thier wives (dead or divorced) living with them.

there are too many things that are out and out contradiction to the Bible for you to make that claim.

i have nothing against mormonism but do not claim it is the most Christian of all religions because that is simply false.

Hey former Marine & LisaA

Sounds like a winner to me. And separation of church, corporations (business) and state is what made this country great.

And yes, Bill, they all turned out good even the ones who don't go to church. I only claim to be a practicing Christian Genghis Khan jr. My wife wants me to go to mass every few weeks, but I let her down constantly. Most of my family are protestants, but what's a guy to do who is the son of Genghis Khan.

Let's get real people. You can have Mitt or you can have the devils daughter. No matter what your druthers, that's the choice. Now think about it.

Oh, and think about who you would want to go in to combat with. It's not that nice guy who always agrees with you. This presidency thing is combat.


Arrogant preachers need to butt out
I resent these arrogant preachers who have gotten to big for their breeches, gathering in some backroom to annoint a seriously flawed candidate , and then
trying to scare me into voting for their anointed by using Hillary or Guliani to frighten and intimidate me.

The fact is Romney is the LEAST likely to beat Hillary.

Morever he is another david souter, and his idead for a federally MANDATED health
insurance policy for all-whether they want to buy it or not-is antithetical to freedom of choice.

mandatory health insurance? No thanks Mitt!

I would like to quote a scripture:
Luke 6:37
“Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condem not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven” (King James Version).

I do not judge or condemn, and I will forgive all the self-professed Christians who are quick to label, judge, and condemn the LDS Church. It is quite obvious that you are misinformed on the beliefs of the Church. If you would do your research from reliable sources on the Church, you would have the truth. Since you do not appear to have the correct information, I encourage you to actually ask a Mormon what he/she believes. If you refuse to ask a Mormon, then please go to the following site and read what the Mormons believe:

http://www.mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/basic-beliefs/the-resto ration-of-truth/god-is-your-loving-heavenly-father

Unless you are my Savior (I firmly believe that Jesus Christ is my Savior), you are in no position to judge me or anyone else on this Earth and condemn them to eternal damnation. Not a single one of these posts have given sound scriptural defense of your position in regards to the cult status of the Mormons. Just because someone labels it a cult does not make it so.

I choose to follow Christ, and in doing so I have found the truth: The beliefs of the Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-Day Saints. I am proud to be a member and to call myself a CHRISTIAN whether or not anyone else believes it. I am very sure that Mitt Romney is proud of his membership as well. And let me make it clear: The Church encourages members to take part in community and political affairs and to act on the dictates of their own conscience. We believe that people will choose what is best.

So, do your research from reliable sources, not from someone that has an ax to grind. If you believe that God answers prayers, then pray about it. I have faith that if you do these things, you will be guided to choose the best person for President. Just remember, contention is not of Christ.

outbac-are these true?
Most people still don't know that Mormon prophets have actually preached as gospel truth that:

--People of African or Native American lineage are born with dark skin because God cursed them and their progenitors.

--God lives on a planet surrounded by multitudes of faithful Mormon men and their harems, who are destined to eventually become gods and goddesses, lording over their own worlds populated with countless millions of their own procreated spirit children.

--Jesus was literally fathered by God through sexual intercourse with the Virgin Mary.

--Adam was Jesus's father, who, along with one of his wives, Eve, was transported to the Garden of Eden from another planet.

--The saving blood of Jesus can't rescue murderers unless their blood has been spilled on earth first. (That's one reason why Utah is the only state in the union that gives the condemned the option of dying by firing squad. It makes their getting out of hell that much easier).


Christians should support Fred Thompson
Thompson is the most conservative, non-flip-floppish of all the electables. His voting score card is the highest rated and most consistently conservative of any other GOP front runner. The following are excerpts from a story run today on Fox:

Thompson also told the audience he ran in 1994 for the U.S. Senate to change the country.

"I'm proud to say over eight years, on national issues, I was a consistent conservative with a 100-percent pro-life voting record. I am proud of that record. That is who I was then, that is who I am now, and what I will be as president."
Thompson, dipping into the rhetoric of personal revelation that many evangelical Christians identify with, said his own pro-life beliefs grew stronger upon the viewing "the sonogram of my own child."

"I will never feel the same again because my heart is now fully engaged with my head," Thompson said, adding: "No legislation that funds this procedure (abortion) will pass my desk without my veto."

FDT Cont'd

Thompson said judicial activism, which he defined as intervention in questions of abortion and defining marriage, "violates the rule of law," that the judicial ruling in Roe v. Wade would "have amazed our founding fathers," and that judicial rulings allowing for same-sex marriage have turned generations of law and culture "on its head."

"This is a judicially created problem," Thompson said of the fight over legally defining marriage.

Thompson also weighed in on the Maine school district that decided this week to dispense contraceptives to students as young as 11 or 12 without parental notification.

"When school officials are giving away birth control pills to 11- and 12-year-olds, some values are seriously messed up."

When asked today what he would do in his first 100 days in office, he said that he had no idea in the first 100 days, but he knew what he would do in the first hour. "I would go into the Oval office and pray for the wisdom to know what's right. In my first hour I would pray for the strength to do what's right."

Check the record. I'll take a professing Protestant Christian any day over a cultish Mormom used car salesman.

"The average Russian don't take a dump, son, without a plan." FDT in command!

Cult??
cult /k?lt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kuhlt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. a particular system of religious worship, esp. with reference to its rites and ceremonies.

2. an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, esp. as manifested by a body of admirers: the physical fitness cult.

3. the object of such devotion.

4. a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc.

5. Sociology. a group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols.

Sounds like Christianity is a CULT!!!!!

Keep talking Religious Lib.........

.........The more you say, added to your title, just takes most of us farther and farther from where you and your merry band want to lead us.

Dog Gone. Aren't you good at dishin' up sheet.

Sheet and nothing but sheet. Go play with yourself, son of Satan.

Misdirected Hope
I shouldn't be surprised at the confusion. I was under the impression that we're electing, simply, the president o' the US. Y'all are acting like we're electing a savior... i don't know about you, but I already have one.... And ANYBODY that you perceive to be elected toward that end will only serve to be a HUGE disappointment.

religiouslib
I know a lot about Mormonism and you do not know anything about the religion. Please do not show your ignorance anymore.

religiouslib
I am really getting sick of all the freaks (like you) who keep posting random stuff about what some cold dead lds prophet taught.

Mitt's religion is becoming a non-issue in this race. Mitt clearly holds all of the values we Christians want in a President - I wouldn't care if Joseph Smith taught that God was a tree; it isn't relevent to what Mitt believes today nor is it relevent to the values Mitt practices in his life and his leadership. Give it up.

I couldn't support just any mormon for President - But Mitt (whether he is mormon or not) is just the man this country needs right now. It isn't Thompson...It isn't Rudy...It isn't McCain. If I were electing a pastor - I'd pick Huckabee - but President of the United States requires a little more experience than a Mike Huckabee.

Gunloc Bill and the word 'Cult'
It's too bad you aren't able to seperate yourself from the literalness of the etymological and concise derivations offered in Meriam Webster's circa 1800 definitions in order to understand a word's contemporary usage.

Perhaps if one were to speak more slowly you might understand.

Iran Nuclear war Mongering
gratefulheart wrote:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/016205.html

"Iran is not threatening to nuke the US or Israel (as if a poor, backward state would have a chance against either WMD-stuffed rich state). "

Not True. Look in the archives at http://www.thetrumpet.com
Of course you probably consider The World Wide Church of God to be a cult also. They still can read. They report published information. Like 700 club. You probably consider 700 club a cult, too. They probably disagree with you, after all.

Mr Im-in-a-jihad of Iran has said more than once publicly that he intends to nuke Israel off the map. Search for it on the trumpet website. I leave it to you to get the right spelling.

His version of armageddon - I have forgotten the Islamic technical term - is, blow up everybody, let Allah sort us out. This information is at the trumpet also.

ROMNEY is our only hope
Guiliani is too liberal. Thompson is too lazy. Huckabee can't get enough money and his name is to hickish. Romney has the looks, charm, money, speaking ability, executive experience, drive and determination to beat Hillary. We conservatives need to face the facts and get behind Mitt. Sure, I have my issues with some things he said in the past but we are never going to find the perfect candidate. This is what we have, Mitt is a winner, let's put our stock in him and beat Hillary.

Chris
Based on what I know about mormons - I don't take seriously anyone who refers to them as "cultish" and yes - I am a very religious, born-again Christian, and yes - I've heard all of the experts on mormonism try to convince me otherwise. Mormonism experts say one thing, but their expertise just doesn't jive when you actually meet a mormon. Regardless of how whacky their beliefs are, mormons today are some of the best citizens I have met.

Deadbeat Fred will never be President. Neither will Rudy. The 2008 election will be decided by 7 states - OH, WI, MI, MN, FL, CO, and VA. (Dem's want to steal OH, VA, CO, and FL while GOP wants to steal MI, WI, and MN.) Don't expect any other state to change color in 2008 regardless of the GOP or Dem's nominee.

None of these are strong states for Rudy nor Fred. They will not beat Hillary. MI, MN, WI, and CO are much stronger for Mitt. VA and OH are about even. Rudy has the edge in FL. Nothing can be said for Fred, except - "take your vitamins and try not to fall asleep."

Hawk
I agree Romney is best bet. Do you you really think Mitt has a shot at one of those northern states? I think Mitt (or whoever gets the nom) needs to pick a VP from a northern state that can be flipped from blue to red. Any ideas who that VP should be?

My top choices
Rudy:
Tough on crime
Tough on terror
Fiscal Conservative
Does not pander to wingnuts

Hillary:
She's, like, a total b!tch. I love her to death.

Romney: A mormon presidency will open the door for a gay president. Evangelicals and Catholics should not have the monopoly over the presidency. America is diverse. Gays and Mormons pay taxes. We should be able to run for president without this absurd litmus test.

McCain: Most qualified. Love him

knight_of_baawa
knight_of_baawa asks: "Did it ever occur to you that it was mostly the result of over 70 years of economic implosion?"

That could not have occurred to anyone at the time because you liberals were admiring the USSR's economic growth. Not a single liberal ever said the USSR was in an "economic implosion." Not ever.

Go ahead, find me just ONE of your liberal buddies who in the time frame from 1918-1979 said that the USSR was in an "economic implosion." McGovern said that anyone who thought the USSR was going to collapse should have his head examined, remember?

So you lefties have concocted this theory after the fact to cover up how wrong you had been for those 70 years.

Take McGovern's advice. Have your head examined.

Chris
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cult

Like I said Christianity is a CULT!!!

I am sorry the truth hurts you so much.

Chris
From Meriam Webster's on line dictionary

Etymology: French & Latin; French culte, from Latin cultus care, adoration, from colere to cultivate

Date: 1617

1: formal religious veneration : worship

So again Christianity is a CULT!!!!

I'm sorry that the truth hurts you so much.

for knight_of_baawa
knight_of_baawa once again asks about Ron Paul.

Sir,
you don't know what "fiscal responsibility" means or what it entails until you have had an executive position, a job that involves managing a real enterprise. That is when you have to take responsibility for making hard decisions about tradeoffs where to spend money and where not to.

Ron Paul has never had to do that. No one in Congress has to do that. Not Hillary. Not Obama.

In this country, the public executives are mayors (e.g., Giuliani); governors (e.g., Romney, Huckabee); and Presidents of course.

But it's great to have you reveal how much of Ron Paul's support is crossing over from Moveon.org

for knight_of_baawa
knight_of_baawa asks: "Did it ever occur to you that it was mostly the result of over 70 years of economic implosion?"

Somehow that never occurred to any of your left-wing heroes at the time:

"The Soviet Union....is also a nuclear superpower that cannot be eliminated, as Hitler’s Reich was, and with whom we therefore have no choice but to coexist as best we can."
-- George McGovern, 1980

"The Soviet Union has embarked on a new period of expansion."
-- Zbigniew Brzezinski, Jimmy Carter's National Security Adviser, 1980

"Those in the United States who think the Soviet Union is on the verge of economic and social collapse are wishful thinkers who are only kidding themselves."
-- Arthur Schlesinger, 1982

"What counts is results, and there can be no doubt that the Soviet
planning system has been a powerful engine for economic growth.... The
Soviet model has surely demonstrated that a command economy is capable
of mobilizing resources for rapid growth."
-- Paul Samuelson, "Economics," the standard "Economics 101" textbook (since revised)

"That the Soviet system has made great material progress in recent years is evident both from the statistics and from the general urban scene....Partly, the Russian system succeeds because, in contrast with the Western industrial economies, it makes full use of its manpower."
-- John Kenneth Galbraith, 1984

All these statements were made less then 15 years after the collapse that you claim was happening for over 70 years.

When are you liberals going to admit how stupid you were?

jcdean - Part 1 of 4


jcdean writes: “The truth is what is is reguardless if you choose not to see it.”


You are preaching to the choir on this, my friend. Even if every person on this planet decided to stand against God’s Word, it would have no effect on the truth of His Word whatsoever. What passes for wisdom among men changes daily, but the truth of God’s Word does not change, and it cannot be bent to the will of man; it’s not a popularity contest, and it isn’t up for a vote.



~~~~~~~



jcdean writes: “There is nothing in the Book of Mormon which changes aything from the Old or New Testiment but perhaps your perception of it.”


What matters is what the Word of God in the Bible actually says, and if God is not powerful enough to ensure that His Word was recorded and preserved accurately, then we have no cause to believe anything about anything.


Either God preserved His Word as He promised, or He lied.


In order to accept another testament, I must believe that God lied, and if He lied about one promise, I have no cause to believe another promise, much less another testament.


Do you see the problem?



~~~~~~~



jcdean writes: “If you would take the time to look at how the Old and New Testiment were compiled then you would understand that not all books are accounted for nor are all books complete.”


That is what might be called the first step in undermining the authenticity of God’s Word on the way to accepting a false gospel.


Why do you assume I have not investigated how the OT and NT were compiled? I understand why you need to believe what you do in order to accept the rest of what you believe, but you cannot credibly substantiate your first premise, unless you believe that God has failed, in which case all bets are off and it’s every man for himself...




jcdean - Part 2 of 4



jcdean writes: “Everything in the LDS Church goes hand in hand with the King James Bible.”


There is no need to get hung up on the KJV; while it is my personal preference, it has things about it that must be understood properly, like any other translation. For just one example, the KJV improperly uses the word “Easter” instead of “Passover” in Acts 12:4.


The American Standard Version of 1901 is also excellent, and corrects some of the KJV translation errors, but has its own peculiarities as any translation will.



~~~



jcdean writes: “The Book of Mormon only tells more of what Jesus did on this Earth but does not change anything of his works.”


In order to believe that, I must believe that God’s Word in the NT was not complete; I have to believe in ongoing Revelation from God, as I understand Roman Catholics do, but neither LDS or Roman Catholics can substantiate continuing Revelation with anything more credible than “just trust me”, and in matters of God, I’m sorry, but I just can’t do that.


God has warned us all over the place in His Word not to trust the words of men when they conflict with the Word of God. If you want to follow after the wisdom, doctrines and traditions of men, that is your right, but you will not convince me to do so until or unless you can reconcile and harmonize what you teach with ALL of God’s Word in the Bible on a given subject.


God does not contradict Himself. If a doctrine is at odds with God’s Word, one of them must be wrong.


God is not wrong.



jcdean - Part 3 of 4


jcdean writes: “The LDS Church is the ONLY Church on the face of this earth that is established with the authority of Jesus Christ organized as he himself had it when he came to earth.”


That is a bald-faced lie, a false teaching, and while I do not desire to use inflammatory language, I don't know how else to respond to such an attack, except directly and truthfully.


I realize you believe your words are true, but as you noted at the beginning of your post, “The truth is what is is reguardless if you choose not to see it.”.


If you want to investigate a church that was established with the Authority of Jesus Christ and that is Scripturally organized according to direct command, apostolic example and necessary inference in God’s Word, you should examine the non-denominational church of Christ.


That is NOT meant to be a blanket endorsement of any church with a sign saying “church of Christ” over the door; some are faithful, some are not, and you need to do a bit of investigation to determine which is which (i.e., an apostate church is not likely to acknowledge their condition, since denying the truth is how they slipped into apostasy in the first place).


Just as in the 1st century, some of the Lord’s churches are operating according to God’s plan, while others are either falling away or have already become apostate, see Revelation chapters 2 and 3 for first century examples of these same problems, they are nothing new.




jcdean - Part 4 of 4


jcdean writes: “Again I say that Mormons or LDS are Christians in the truest sense following in the footsteps of Jesus Christ and the Church he established here on earth.”


Again you say it, and therefore again I must declare that your statement is an untruth.


It is not my desire to be hurtful toward anyone, it is not even my desire to have this conversation in this particular Thread because it may derail the entire discussion, and this particular Thread is not about the differences between the LDS and God’s Word in the Bible.


But when you publicly declare things that are not true about God’s Word, as a Bible-believing Christian I have an obligation to confront that error publicly, lest others be led astray because ‘good men remained silent’.


You have every right to say whatever you want, but untruths spoken about God’s Word cannot be allowed to go uncontested.



~~~



jcdean writes: “Reguardless of what you choose to believe, it does not change the truth.”


We are in complete agreement on this, but clearly you do not recognize that what you have chosen to believe is in contradiction to the only truth we can be sure of:


God’s Word in the Bible.



~~~



jcdean writes: “If you would open up your eyes and humble yourself then you would too would be brought out of the dark to see the light.”


Not only open eyes, but open minds and hearts too, and most important of all, an open Bible.


With a spirit of humility and a sincere desire to know the truth, whatever it turns out to be, I am confident that the eyes of anyone who honestly seeks the truth will be opened to the truth.


This most certainly includes you, jcdean.



religiouslibnut
I object to this discussion being turned into an exercise in misinformation.

E.G. "so you literally believe that Jesus Christ in the flesh met with joseph smith in ohio right?"

Not exactly, Joseph Smith claimed that he had a VISION of God the Father and Jesus Christ and it wasn't in Ohio. If you think that is outrageous, you must think the Bible is outrageous also. I.E. the VISION of St. Stephen (Acts 7:56) wherein he saw "The Son of Man standing on the right hand of God". Or, maybe you don't think God is capable of pulling that off again.

"also, explain how all mormons will be Gods in heaven and have all thier wives (dead or divorced) living with them."

NONSENSE! (a) not all Mormons or even a majority are likely to achieve that status and even then THEIR GOD will still, and always, be God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost. (b) not necessarily any lasting attachment to divorced wives (depending on what kind of divorce and why. (c) Eternal marriage is dependent upon the worthiness of both husband and wife.

If that principal seems outrageous to you then you must not believe the Bible I.E. (Romans 8:17) HEIRS OF GOD, and JOINT HEIRS OF CHRIST.

MAYBE YOU SHOULD CHECK YOUR SOURCES FOR ACCURACY!

To be continued....

FFs and Mormons not Christians
"Here in the United States, God used not only Founding Fathers who were strong Christians, but also Deists such as Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson, to build the foundation of our nation.
--------------"
Talent Scout: "Neither man was a deist.
If you do not know this much....."

I agree with Talent Scout that Jefferson and Franklin were not "Deists" as strictly defined. However, neither were they "Christians" as evangelicals and Catholics understand that term. Indeed the biggest problem with invoking Franklin and Jefferson alone is it suggests they believed differently than Washington, Adams, and Madison. All 5 of those key founders were neither Deists nor Christians. On the central tenets of their creed, they all believed the same.

So if evangelicals could support America's first 4 Presidents who weren't "Christians," then evangelicals likewise should be able to support Mormons.

In my essay the Cato Institute published, I described the creed of America's key founders which was neither Christianity nor Deism.

http://www.cato-unbound.org/2007/10/15/the-editors/best-of- the-blogs-jonathan-rowe-on-american-political-theology/

"Nature’s God was theologically unitarian, universalist (did not eternally damn anyone) syncretist (most or all world religions worshipped Him), partially inspired the Christian Scriptures, and man’s reason was ultimate device for understanding Him. He was not quite the strict Deist God that some secular scholars have made Him out to be. But neither was He the Biblical God. Rather, somewhere in between."

Delusional intellectual
Knights of Baalzabub writes;Jesus is the prince of war, and then says he has christian friends. That sounds like a klansman saying he has black friends. I really enjoy these uber-intellectuals that can only bring up thoughts of old or already dead people and say how clever they are. It's so amusing.You are a mental midget and your thoughts are obviously ignited by your hate for God.intellectual plagerism is for lazy folk. Do your own research and come up with an original idea or thought. I highly recommend the book of revelation(key word revelation), If you can really unscramble the message I think it might clear a few things up for you. Also reference The book of Daniel and words like Prince of the north, Persia, Rosh,Tubal and Gomer.God bless

Who is the enemy?
The devil is well-organized and on a full court press. All those who believe they are Christians need to close ranks and quit in-fighting. A kingdom divided against itself cannot stand.

Mit
The easy answer to all this is Mitt is not suitable to represent Christianity if he supports Torture or other anti-Christ agendas. His two Gitmos speech should send chills down the back of the faithful.
"Torture is self-perpetuating. You torture one person, he/she gives up some names. They are impossible to corroborate, since giving you information you already know will invite further torture. The people whose names are given are arrested. Are you going to waste time using accepted interrogation techniques to get actionable intelligence from these people (most of whom are unlikely to have any useful information)? Within two to three steps it is possible to be torturing hundreds of people on an almost routine basis. This is what the French did in Algeria. This is most likely what happened at Abu Ghraib. You will get actionable intelligence at some point, as a pig hunting in a dunghill will find something to eat. The French used it very effectively in Algiers, breaking up the terrorist cells in the city. They won the battle, and ensured that they would lose the war. Do I have to tell you why? Think Gestapo, Resistance, Torture."

When will you Liberal dinosars Grow up?
If we are trying to build the kingdom of God, why are we using the devil's tools? Did you know that all religions are Cults according to the original definition. But now a cult is any religion other then yours. So, to me you are the cult, if mine is s cult to you. Tit-for-tat

Does that make us even, or does that make us both foolish. Lets honor the constitution and respect others right to freedom of religion.

May God bless you with godly wisdom, and increased understanding.
-----------
This is not the place to discuss
Mr. Romney's Religion, because it is gossip and hearsay, unless you invite Mr. Romney to join in the discussion, to verify your version.

This backstabbing is an indication of our own character. Which really does not convince that we are a Christians ourselves.

Where does Christ say we are to condemn another’s heart felt worship of God according to the dictates of their conscience? I would suggest that you are just a liberal spooler seeking to divide Christians who seek to protect the values that have made America Great.

As you know by our fruits we are known.

(New Testament | John 13:34 - 35)
34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

(New Testament | Matthew 5:43 - 44)
43 ¶ Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

The greatest shall be the servant of all.

Be kind to dumb animals!

ReligiousLib CHECK YOUR "FACTS"
"Most people still don't know that Mormon prophets have actually preached as gospel truth that: "

answer: Not everything a prophet says is prophesy. Only when and if he is speaking as a prophet, and he will so indicate.

--People of African or Native American lineage are born with dark skin because God cursed them and their progenitors.

NOT MORMON DOCTRINE

--God lives on a planet surrounded by multitudes of faithful Mormon men and their harems, who are destined to eventually become gods and goddesses, lording over their own worlds populated with countless millions of their own procreated spirit children.

THATS A SURREAL MISCHARACTERIZATION AND YOU KNOW IT! Mormen men don't have "harems" men and women are equals in the sight of God. The rest is hardly worthy of comment.

--Jesus was literally fathered by God through sexual intercourse with the Virgin Mary.

NOT MORMON DOCTRINE The Biblical account is as far as we know and is quite sufficient.

--Adam was Jesus's father, who, along with one of his wives, Eve, was transported to the Garden of Eden from another planet.

ABSOLUTE BALDERDASH!

--The saving blood of Jesus can't rescue murderers unless their blood has been spilled on earth first. (That's one reason why Utah is the only state in the union that gives the condemned the option of dying by firing squad. It makes their getting out of hell that much easier).

MORE BALDERDASH! Jesus Christ's blood atonement is the only one necessary but repentance begins with making amends to the extent possible.

IMHO you are a troll, knowingly spreading rumors and falsehoods. I am replying for the benifit of others who might be deceived by your blatherings.

BTW, I would happily vote for Mike Huckabee, a Baptist minister, if he is the nominee. In fact, I think a Romney / Huckabee ticket would be just peachy. I suspect they would get along with each other just fine.

Taft
"The easy answer to all this is Mitt is not suitable to represent Christianity"

Funny, I thought we were looking for a PRESIDENT not a pastor.

Spiceman
Re: your post of 9;01

WELL SAID!

It has now come out that the Democrats in general and Hillary in particular are PAYING bloggers to go to these discussion threads and spread their misinformation and lies.

Conservatives need to stick together. The Democrat game is "divide and conquer".


What Mormons believe of Jesus/Families
For anyone who wonders what Mormons belief is in Jesus Christ or families--please see the following links below. Hopefully this will put to rest your concerns. I wish everyone knew this. I'm puzzled why some don't believe Mormons are Christian. The Book of Mormon testifies of the Bible, and the Bible of the Book of Mormon. In fact, page for page, the Book of Mormon testifies more times of Jesus Christ and his divinity than the Bible. We use both scriptures side by sid--they support, sustain and clarify each other. I love the Bible and the Book of Mormon because they both have the same author and carry the same spirit.

Testimony of the Living Christ

http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,163-1-10-1,FF.htm l

Proclamation on the Family

http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,161-1-11-1,00.htm l

Most are afraid of what they don't understand. Study from the source first (ask God for guidance) and go to the official websites (lds.org and mormon.org) for official information, not the hateful, mean-spirited and mostly false information spread by anti-mormon sites.

JT

Liberius
In answer to your post at 4:44pm - I'm sure Mitt already has a list of very qualified potential V.P.'s and a potential winning strategy for each one.

If he doesn't follow the strategy of picking a favorite V.P. from the northern states - he'll counterbalance with a sharper winning strategy for those states.

I am 100% sure Mitt will take Michigan in both the primaries and the general election. Michigan was very fond of Romney's father as a 3-term governor. Mitt, too, is very well-connected in that region.

A Mitt ticket would also make CO very easy for the GOP to defend since CO had a front row seat to witness Mitt's successful resurrection of 2002 winter olympic games in Utah. CO has seen the fruits of Mitt's effectiveness.

The Trolls really come out when.....

..........A candidate dangerous to Ms Hellary has a shot at sinking her campaign. Ms Hellary would never forgive the American people if she were hard pressed or, heavens forbid, lost. Her son, Bill Clintstone, only won because Ross Perot made such a fuss. Now she wants to do the same. Divide and conquer.

Even Robert, who is so-oo religious, comes and jumps on our best winnable candidate. I would like to see a better candidate than Mitt, but I don't. And there are several worse in our line up.

The Republican race to date looks like a trip to the rifle range by recruits. Get that thumb away from your eye recruit. Don't point that thing at me recruit. (dip stick) Well the drill instructors told us that we country boys with experience wouldn't shoot as well as the recruit that hunkered down and learned how to shoot.

Damn we blew their lights out. Us, country boy, pop gun shooters, shot high and second high expert, 234 and 231.

I like Mitts experience and really care less which church he goes to because he does go, and he has a fine family. That counts in my book.


Liberius
In answer to your post at 4:44pm - I'm sure Mitt already has a list of very qualified potential V.P.'s and a potential winning strategy for each one.

If he doesn't follow the strategy of picking a favorite V.P. from the northern states - he'll counterbalance with a sharper winning strategy for those states.

I am 100% sure Mitt will take Michigan in both the primaries and the general election. Michigan was very fond of Romney's father as a 3-term governor. Mitt, too, is very well-connected in that region.

A Mitt ticket would also make CO very easy for the GOP to defend since CO had a front row seat to witness Mitt's successful resurrection of 2002 winter olympic games in Utah. CO has seen the fruits of Mitt's effectiveness.

Oops - My Bad
Sorry - didn't mean to double post the previous entry, but after I posted it...the entry didn't seem to be showing up. (Hence I re-posted.) Oops.

Scott
writes: "With a spirit of humility and a sincere desire to know the truth, whatever it turns out to be, I am confident that the eyes of anyone who honestly seeks the truth will be opened to the truth."

I completely agree with that statement!

"In order to accept another testament, I must believe that God lied, and if He lied about one promise, I have no cause to believe another promise, much less another testament."

I'm not sure what you are referring to, but I don't believe that God lies at all nor do I think that He is capricious. As we are all "Gods children" I think it only reasonable that He has revealed himself at different times in different places to different people.
There is even clear evidence of this in the chinese alphabet.

I would love to get into a religious discussion with you, but as this is not the correct venue for it, I will just say that it is obvious that we have much in common and probably want much the same thing from a presidential cantidate

God bless!


Romney
While I agree with most of the article, you failed to mention that the Mormon church uses the King James Bible, believes everything the mainline christians and the evangelicals believe. I am not a mormon, however, at one time I was very close with the Mormon Va. Stake President and I learned that they believe every word of the Bible, prolife, strong family values,charity, taking care of their own, baptism by total emersion and are very loving, giving, intelligent people. They raise their children with strong bible values. Their only fault is believing in Joseph Smith, the book of mormon, doctrines and covenants and the book called the pearl of great price. Morally, Mitt is the strongest, however, the Bible says not to add or take away from it; how do we stand before our Father in heaven and give an account of this compromise in acceptance of Mitt? Those whose heart is set on the Lord as their savior and Lord must pray without ceasing to know His will in the election and act accordingly.

This is very good news
From the beginning a friend of mine was very pro Romney and still is. In the mean time I have dived into most every candidate. Reading policy statements, asking here and other places what they know about individual candidates. Over the last couple of days, I am really turning very much for Romney for all the great reasons stated in this article. I sure don't care about his religion if the country doesn't and to loose a good potentially good president for such an odd reason doesn't make sense. I think if this article and hopefully more like it are read and resonate with the Religious right it is possible that Romney could sweep in with the Southern vote and that would sweep him right into the White house. This article could not be better for the Republican Party or for the Nation. This is the best thing I have read all week. I am really going to have a good day.

There are already a million comments here with a million more to come, so if you want to debate or concur email me barrym@tds.net I also need hits on my pitifully small blog.

Axe me, OK?
"bloodyax writes: Friday, October, 19, 2007 11:43 AM
5. South Park episode on Mormonism explains it best. If you haven't seen it, see it. It will be the most widely watched episode on Youtube."

******

Do you have idea who is the "author" of South Park?

He's a liberal "Hoolywood" fund raiser for the "Cackler!" And I can't think of a more reliable source to show how evil the "Mormons" are!

If you want to be taken seriously; best you don't post anymore of the lame brain comments you have been making. Go back to the KOS; we know what your about.

I can, for one, feel pity for you; you surely need a great deal of it!

This is Pathetic...
After reading Grudem's book: "Systematic Theology" where he promoted his hard line Calvinism, he makes two very horrible mistakes: 1. All comments and information about the opposing theology, called Arminianism, he gets completely wrong and even in the references he quotes people who are not even Arminian in theology, and 2. He manipulates the word of God to fit the Calvinist theology, when he should have been changing the theology to fit the word of God. NOW he wants to get into politics.

With most evangelicals starting to get behind Huckabee, all I can say is PATHETIC! But given his past record of accuracy in theology, I am not surprised.

truth vs choice
I appreciate your kind and thoughtful post of 1:12 and I agree with your admonition:

"to know His will in the election and act accordingly."

However with regard to...

"Bible says not to add or take away from it;"

I would just point out the fact that "bible" means literally a collection of books or articles. The admonition, to which you refer, was made long before the Bible was compiled and is not even in the final book of the Bible (chronologically speaking). Thus it could be argued that it was speaking of not taking away from, or adding to, the doctrine or gospel of the Bible. Unfortunately, over the years, that is exactly what did happen through errors in translation, the well meaning "clarifications" of people with good intentions who manually transcribed passages and books that are mentioned in the Bible but that are no longer there. There are also books such as the "Appocrypha" and the "Lost books of Eden" that have been so badly corrupted as to be nearly useless.

Therefore, returning to your admonition: "Those whose heart is set on the Lord as their savior and Lord must pray without ceasing"... May I point out that the Book of Mormon contains a promise that through prayer you can receive a witness from The Spirit as to the truthfulness of it.

I have an amusing picture of a "main stream" Christian church. The sign out front says "Don't Pray About the Book of Mormon, that's how they get you."

I think one might be a bit leery of any church whose advice is "to not pray" about anything!

To follow up on your final point: "how do we stand before our Father in heaven and give an account of"... why we didn't ask Him for His advise?

My problem with Romney...
As a Baptist minister, I have great respect for Wayne Grudem. His books and commentaries are among the best. Still, I'm not sure I can agree with him regarding Mitt Romney.

Romney strikes me as a political opportunist. He seems to tell people what he thinks they want to hear. How can we be certain he'll maintain these positions if and when he gets elected?

I admit I like Romney better than Giuliani, but that's not saying a whole lot. Doesn't the GOP have anyone better than this?

Think...
I posted like this before, but here we go again. Mormonism a cult. Hmmm. And the better cult would be liberalism? Obamaism? Hillaryism?

Must be a christian to be prez. Like Clinton who claims to be a baptist? Bush? Jimmy Carter who who betrays scipture more than an athiest?

Mitt must assure us of his stance on polygamy. Don't you think his life has spoken for what he believes about that? He has had just 1 wife. He still has just 1 wife who happens to be the same wife. Maybe this would be a better question for guiliani to answer who has had 3 wives.

Gimme a break.

anybody
visited http://www.exmormon.org ?

Source?
religiouslib writes: Saturday, October, 20, 2007 3:40 PM
anybody
visited http
******

Let me see now; I get it! Just like old "Bludyaxe"; the best way to learn about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is to listen to apostates; those who were cut-off from fellowship; those who make a living writing and SELLING their lies; those who don't have a clue as to what the LDS Church is all abbout, and,

those who can believe Paul was visited by Christ but no on else in the last 2000 years could be because (I guess) Christ CAN'T visit a modern day prophet (He has no such power anymore); those who can believe that a dead man can rise from the dead, but He can't talk to anyone today (I don't recall reading that in the Bible, by the way; if it's in there kindly give a reference); I could go on for a long time, but time and space is a problem.

You and others who DENY that God the Father or His Son, Jesus Christ, have the power to visit a living prophet sound just like the Pharasees; "Moses we know, who are you?" I'm sure that you are smart enough to recognize the contradiction, or are you?

You don't know whether Joseph Smith was visited by The Father and Son, just as you don't know that Paul was visited by the Savior. It's matter of faith; and I for one, while I love all of God's children and will not attack their faith, am very bored by the constant cry; "Mormons are not Christians"; well I know better; I am a believer in the saving power of Jesus of Nazareth who obeyed His Father's wishes, and came to be a little lower than the angels so that He could understand what man has to learn. (You might find it useful to actually READ the Bible.)

Not So Fast
Mayhaps Mr. Grudem leaped before he looked--to heaven. Yes, Mitt Romney has many assets, but I lean towards Huckabee for the following reasons. 1) He is smart. 2) He can speak--better than Mitt. 3) He exudes genuineness, and has a track record to back that impression up. 4) He is likeable, and therefore electable, much as Reagan was. Most importantly, he is born again. Therefore, he will be a true servant to all the people, teachable, and able and willing to hear Gods voice in a crunch. Before joining the evangelical rush to Mitt, get alone with the Lord in prayer. The God of David may have other plans for Goliath, and it behooves all of us to stand with His man.

River Rising Review Live Broadcast
Shalom ~ You are invited to add your voice to the live broadcast "River Rising Review" hosted by Rabbi DF Eukel on TalkShoe.com. If participating by cell/phone dial 724.444.7444 and when prompted enter the TalkCast ID# 62632. If participating by internet, on the TalkShoe.com site, go to the broadcasts listed under "15 Minutes of Fame" and scroll to "River Rising Review." The live hour broadcast of "River Rising Review" hosted by Rabbi DF Eukel airs at 9:00 AM EST Monday through Friday. Be informed and inspired in the forward-moving, friendly, fast-paced and focused five segments: How Now Should We Live?, May I Introduce A Friend?, What’s In Your Wallet?, Hug A Warrior Today!, and Who Gets What, When Where and How? Want more information? Email Rebbe: EUKEL at EUKEL.org Shalom, Shalom!

Reciprocity and Polygamy
Reciprocity.
It's interesting to observe non-LDS Christians debate whether to vote for an LDS candidate because we LDS -- now 2% of the US's population -- have not had a problem, so far, in voting for non-LDS candidates with values like ours. Maybe we should begin our debates about whether to continue doing this!

Polygamy.
Mitt's father, who served as governor of Michigan, was asked by a reporter how many wives he had. His answer was, "As many as I want: ONE."

FYI, the restored gospel of Jesus Christ saved my life and then healed my soul some 15 years ago. "I glory in plainness; I glory in truth; I glory in my Jesus, for he hath redeemed my soul from hell." (2 Nephi 33:6)

Romney's religion not a threat
Mormons make a rather strange cult, one that worships Christ, that studies the Bible, that supports faithful marriage between a husband and wife and loving teaching of children, that does not make anyone rich, that asks all its leaders to set an example of humble sacrifice of material means, that earns its living in the regular world and lives as good neighbors to all, that volunteers to help those hit by hurricanes and other disasters, that helps to feed the hungry and clothe the poor and helps its members and others find jobs, that supports an internationally recognized university with a highly ranking law school and business school, a top flight computer science department, a full panoply of performing arts (music, dance, theater), visual arts, science (including a top notch paleontology musuem), one of the largest ROTC programs in the US, and is a major participant in research such as the Dead Sea Scrolls project, the Herculaneum scrolls reconstruction, and projects at the Vatican Library.

Calling these people a "cult" says nothing about them, because these realities have no correlation to what most people think of when they hear that word. And it says absolutely nothing about Mitt Romney as a person or candidate. Calling Romney a member of a "cult" means that you have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about.

KL, you are WRONG in much of what you
posted at 12:53 a.m.

As examples:

Romney NEVER believed in or supported Marriage as a "civil right" for gays. He is the ONLY first tier Republican Pres. candidate who supports and advocates a Federal Constitutional Amendment to Protect Marriage, as the "union of a man and a woman."

Romney was NEVER "pro-abortion." He formerly (some years ago) said that he thought abortion should remain safe and legal, as it was the established 'law of the land.' BUT, he was always personally pro-life, and has never been one to force his personal beliefs upon others.


Evangelicals for Romney Will be Judged
Those evangelical leaders who are endorsing Romney will have to give an account one day in front of the Judgement Throne of Christ as to why they endorsed a man for president who as governor facilitated gay marriage even though he could have moved to impeach the activist judges, threatened to fire justices of the peace who would not perform same sex marriage ceremonies,gave Massachusetts a socialist healthcare plan, favored homosexual boy scout leaders, favored abortion his entire career, bragged about being more "pro gay" than Ted Kennedy, forced Catholic Charities to place children with homosexual couples which even Mike Dukakis argued he wouldn't have done, bragged about having the most strict gun control laws in the nation, and who denies the deity of Jesus Christ.

These "evangelical" leaders and other "Christians" will have to give an account to God as to why they endorsed and evangelized this very devious man.

The Truth Romney Doesn't Want U 2 Know
Mitt Romney Deception
by Brian Camenker, MassResistance
November 20, 2006

[Download as Word format]

Despite recent statements across the country by Governor Mitt Romney claiming he's pro-life, pro-family and a committed conservative, a broad investigation of his actual statements, actions, and public positions over the years indicates that he has spent his entire career speaking and governing as a liberal - and that his new found conversion to conservatism very likely coincides with his candidacy for the presidency.

The information in this report is gleaned from public records, press accounts, internet web sites and research (as well as personal observation) by my organization, MassResistance, a grass-roots pro-family group that has observed Governor Romney for over a decade. We have analyzed his legislation, met with his staff, lobbied for and against his agenda (depending what it is) and otherwise compiled considerable research on his administration.

We believe this report is necessary due to a calculated effort by the Romney campaign to revise his history and portray the Governor as far more conservative than the record indicates. Already, the Governor's staff is making appointments with the nation's leading conservative leaders to convince them that he should be the standard bearer for the conservative movement in the upcoming presidential elections.

read rest here http://www.massresistance.org/docs/marriage/romney/record/

"born again" is worthless
"Most importantly, he [Huckabee] is born again."

Playing devil's advocate:
as is Carter-- so "born again" is worthless.

That said, I'd pick Huckabee over Romney in the primary.

Romney camp's response?
I looked briefly at Action's mention of
http://www.massresistance.org/docs/marriage/romney/record/

It appears like Romney was a MA leftist, and now talks conservative.
What's the Romney camp's response to the material at
http://massresistance.org/romney/

If he follows his religion....
If Romney is a good mormon, then he should be an outstanding leader. Many mormons that I know are righteously engaged in their community, and doing more than many christians to make our world a better place.

Persons who foster anger against other religions have bad spirit about them. You can see it in their words, including many of the people that have written in this thread.

Shame on you for calling yourselves christians.

Grudem is Nothing but a Shill for Romney
Sara wirtes "Many mormons that I know are righteously engaged in their community, and doing more than many christians to make our world a better place."

No doubt I know a lot of Mormons that are highly upstanding people as opposed to the deceptively devious Mitt Romney who has a problem telling the truth. But that is not the point. I know a lot of ahteists and Muslims who are "rightesouly engaged in their communites." But that doesn't change the fact that Mitt Romney is not one of those people. He has left Massachusetts in shambles and his full liberal record will be exposed no matter how much cowardly "evangelical" shills like like Jay Sekulow and Wayne Grudem attempt to distort and deceive people-especially Christians.

1994 Romney pro-homosexuality letter
"'evangelical' shills like like Jay Sekulow and Wayne Grudem attempt to distort and deceive people-especially Christians"

Maybe Sekulow and Grudem are merely uninformed.
Have you sent them the 1994 Romney letter of support for the Log Cabin Republicans? It's at the PDF
http://www.massresistance.org/docs/marriage/romney/record/R omneyLogCabinLetter.pdf

Romney support any anti-abortion laws?
"Romney....he was always personally pro-life, and has never been one to force his personal beliefs upon others."

What, if any, anti-abortion laws does Romney support?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_w9pquznG4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kijwc1DTuM0&mode=related&sea rch=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdVRB9x_DAA&mode=related&sea rch=

I got those links from
http://massresistance.org/romney/

Sekulow and Grudem know Mitt's Record
They and others know that Mitt is a liberal and deceving people about what he believes. Again, both men will have to sit in front of the Judgement Seat and give an account as to why they supported a devious serpent/cultist like Romney. That is the bottom line. Grudem and Sekulow have sold their souls to the Devil. Mark my words. Even the devil can appear as an "angel of light." Cavaet Emptor.

Mitt Romney
I just read the article and agree entirely with what the author said.

At 17 I had a born again Christian experience. 17 years later I became a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints- to the chagrin of some of my friends former friends.

I have found deep spirituality in the members and leaders of the church. When we say "born again" we simply have a broader definition than the evangelical world.

Jesus Christ and his atonement are the center of our religion. Most of the objections I have heard, and some of the remarkably deceitful things that have been written and said about us, including that horrifying PBS program, are simply lies. Yes, we do have some difference in doctrine, but we are not a cult. We worship only God, our Father, and Jesus Christ, his Son. We honor and respect our leaders and do not worship or follow them blindly.

I believe the PBS program was stategically placed to discredit not only our church, but Mit Romney. She did an excellent job of creating a totally wierd program- it horrified me.

I find that most anti- Mormons have no personal experience with us, and have never attended one of our churches to see the real thing.I wish they would- then they would know the truth about us.

I am horrified to think that we might have another Clinton in the White House. The people who work there through each presidency said that they had never heard such vulgar language and so much fighting, as existed during that time.

I am grateful for this excellent article, as it has given me more information on the other candidate than I was aware of. Now I definately will vote for Romney.

Thankyou, Sue

No Politicians can be trusted.
So we have to ask them how they will govern NOW.

I dont't trust Romney or Huckabee; however, they have pledged not to raise taxes, to only appoint Strict Constitutionalists to the Supreme Court (there could be 2 to 4 retirements in the next 8 years), and to stop illegal immigration.

Neither Romney or Huckabee have committed to deporting the 12 million illegal invaders that are already here. I will not vote for any politician who gives amnesty to 12 million illegal invaders.

So I am still waiting to see who will rise up to defend the rule of law when it comes to the 12 million illegal invaders.

Grudem rebuttal on www.daveolesen.com
Big-time rebuttal to Grudem on http://www.daveolesen.com

Romney and his Freemason Friends
We know that Romney is a Freemason (a Humansitic Religous Satanic Cult). The question is are all his supporters who are endorsing him (i.e. Hugh Hewitt, Grudem, Sekulow et al) fellow Masons helping another Mason become president? Think about it. Me thinks that is exactly what is going on here. And the truth always comes out...

...but what about the Constitution?
Each President, when they are sworn in, makes a vow before God to "preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States." Does anyone here honestly think Romney is the candidate most likely to honor that oath?

Because if he isn't... then none of his other credentials matter. Not one little bit.

Still linking column, Dr. G.
Even today, your column was linked in a Weekly Standard blog. You gave an eloquent "Mormon Speech" on Romney's behalf. So basic and common sensical that it still ripples through the political blogosphere. I hope he gets so many more like yours that there will be no need for another from the candidate himself. I further hope all apprehensions due to anyone's religion vanish forever. Thanks Dr. G!

Optimization of Choices
Wayne Grudem has provided a careful analysis and consideration of Mitt Romney's lifetime experience and qualifications relative to the ability to carry out the duties of the office of President of the United States.

There have been numerous comments posted regarding Dr. Grudem's observations, some positive, some negative. As with any evaluation of an individual's qualifications for any job, there will NEVER be anyone who is perfect.

The 2008 elections for president as well as congressional offices will once again be key to the future of the U.S. For both the more traditional "conservative" citizens as well as the "secular progressive", ie: Liberal (Socialist-leaning)members of American society, the next President will hold the key to the nomination of one or more Supreme Court Justices.

Regardless of who the Democrats select as their nominee, we know that their primary agenda will be to raise taxes and implement legislation which will endorse measures that include, among other things, bigger government, retreat from the war on terror, socialized medicine and efforts to make all the illegal immigrants in the U.S. citizens with voting rights thus insuring the future election of Democrats to Federal and State offices.

Life is about choices. Choices are rarely devoid of shortcomings. It is our responsibility to select what we believe to be the best choice and then work to fix the shortcomings relating to the choice we've made.

Some points
Very well-written article that shows a fairness on the issues. I am still amazed, however, at the utter lack of actual knowledge that some of the posters here have with regard to early Christian (ante-Nicene) theology, Biblical interpretation, and history in general.

Point 1: Just because certain denominations have continued to call the Mormon church a "cult" (with the obvious negative implication that word carries) does not mean that the Mormon church is a "cult." In fact, early Christians themselves were deemed a "cult" and a bizarre "sect" of Judaism before Christianity became the religion of the Roman Empire. It reminds me of the bully kids in elementary school who repeatedly call another kid a "nerd" or a "loser." It really has become a banal and unsubstantiated practice of being derogatory towards Mormons. I understand if you want to debate theology or doctrine, but the whole "cult" thing is tired...and most people who actually know Mormons don't really believe this. And remember, ad hominem attacks are considered logical fallacies (i.e. name calling doesn't really address the substance of the differences between people or groups).

2. Ben Franklin and TJ held beliefs at various points in their lives that were Deist. I am not saying that their beliefs did not change over time or that they held strictly Deist views...but both men expressed opinions that coincide with Deism.


Huckabee,Cath. Priests like little boys
Anyone offended by this hopefully sees how rumor and innuendo can sink good people. There is nothing wrong with liking little boys in the proper manner which is what I was really stating. If you read anything else into it, then the problem is yours. That being said, there are some kooks who launch claims about candidates that are meant to get the same knee jerk reaction, but they provide no valid substantiation. Those are pathetic posts. This was a well written article and those who continue to rail against this man because of his religion I have two quotes from a pretty good teacher.

Matt. 7: 16, 20
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
• • •
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Luke 9:49-50
49 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

The teacher's name was Jesus Christ, not a bad authority figure on these issues. Now I look at what Christ taught and the life that Romney leads and ask myself and you, "What would Jesus do?" Should these pathetic stone throwers succeed in tearing down a good man, then I truly believe the Lord will be looking for you to be without sin as well. With what judgment you judge, the same is promised back at you from that same old Teacher.
Lets stick to issues, records, accomplishments. I personally think a Romney/Huckabee or Romney/Gingrich ticket would be a sure fire victory in 2008. We have so much more to offer AND so much more to lose!!!

Are you joking?
Should we really check our theology at the door when we go to vote?

The kings you mentioned in the Bible were just that... kings... no one VOTED for them. If those asked to pray for those kings had the opportunity to vote for someone who believed like they did... they would have voted for them.

Mormonism is a cult.

If Huckabee who has a similar record and would perform as good as if not better as president... why wouldn't you vote for Huckabee?

A planet of his own, special underwear, black people are cursed, at the judgement will answer to the founder of mormonism not Jesus.. Jesus had three wives, Jesus had children.....Really?

You can't honestly tell me that we won't be responsible for the inevitable
spiritual influence this man will have on the country. And if you don't think that the presidents spiritual life effects and influences lives in the country, you are PollyAnna.

"Systematically" we can show how a presidents faith effects the country.


I am a Baptist minister in Peachtree City, GA. I will not tell my congregation how to vote... but I pray that the THEOLOGY and values that the BIBLE teaches will influence their vote.


In His Grip,
Scott

Inbred lying
I've studied Mormonism since 1979. I've read a vast number of books on the subjects of Joseph Smith, the modern Mormon church, the missionary system, etc. As a result, while I can vote for a non-Christian, I can't vote for a Mormon.

Joseph Smith was a deceiver. Even before he foisted his religious fraud upon his gullible followers, he practiced "money-digging". This involved digging for supposed buried treasure. If no treasure was found, it was due to the lack of faith of the land-owner. When Joseph realized there was more money in religion, he made up the Book of Mormon. The "golden plates" never existed.

His deceit continued throughout his short life. He deceived his wife when he told her he was not having extra-marital affairs. He told the women he "married" not to tell anyone about the marriage (including their husbands!). The eager male followers of polygamy were also encouraged to keep their extra marriages a secret (at first).

Joseph died, but deceit became a way of life in Mormonism. Don't tell the potential converts what we REALLY believe - it might turn them off.

A friend of mine, a former Mormon, told me that for years after he had left the LDS church he struggled with lying. It had been a way of life in the church, and he had to unlearn it.

More on the subject
Several years ago I was visited by a couple of Mormon missionaries. I asked them, "Does your church teach that God was once a man, and that men can evolve into godhood"? They answered me point blank, "No." After I told them I KNEW they were lying, they finally came clean. "Yes, we believe that worthy Mormon men can become gods."

Even the recently deceased Mormon "prophet" Gordon Hinckley lied during an interview with Larry King when he said that he didn't "know" that the LDS church taught men could become gods.

This is the culture of Mitt Romney - and of Harry Reid, too! Lying for expedience is justified in Mormon culture. So how can you believe anything they say?

latina
is this man high or what? i could never vote on romney. i've een enough videos of his in MA. he was for same sex marriage and pro-abortion. i can guarantee you that conservative Christians will never vote for Romney. NEVER. My first and only choice is Huckabee. He is concistent and will not mince his words.

Let's see here...
Let's see here...

Romney Accomplishments:

1) TAX-PAYER FUNDED abortions,

2) Recent Double-Talk on every important issue,

3) This very interesting video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43TVmSoaQ7c&feature=related

4) Oh yeah, since the media never talks about this, I almost forgot: FORMER MORMON BISHOP, TOO (but religion is off-base, FOR HIM, so I won't mention that)

5) Obvious conflict-of-interest (at best) with the Bain Capital and Clear-Channel $19.5 Billion deal,

6) The people who knew him best would never re-elect him, so he didn't dare run for re-election of Governor of Massachusetts.

7) Supporters have given $200,000.00 each to "The Club for Growth" which continued to run attack ads against Huckabee LONG after the misrepresentations (through taking information out of context) were pointed out.

8) TAX-PAYER FUNDED abortions!


...or...

Huckabee:

1) Has always been a CONSISTENT, AUTHENTIC, CONSERVATIVE on social, fiscal, and national defense issues.

2) Endorsed by Duncan Hunter, Jim Gilchrist, and Roy Jones, Jr.

3) Received 48% of the African-American bote in Arkansas.

4) Had his state to take in over 75,000 Hurricane Katrina victims in their time of great need!

5) Turned his states $200 Million deficit into an $850 Million surplus!

6) Was re-elected by his mostly Democrat state. Has served 10 1/2 years as Governor, 3 years as Lt. Governor, and was chosen by his peers to be the Chair of the NGA (National Governor's Association) to provide leadership for 50 States and 5 US Territories.

7) Took his state's schools from #49 to #8 in the nation!

8) Has a great attitude, is friendly, and thumps a real good bass!

uhm...I think I'll stick with Mike! HUCK YEAH!!

Oops!
above: botes = votes

Shocked
I am very shocked that many christian leaders actually endorsed Romney and encouraged other Christians to supoort him. mitt has had tremendors success as a businessman, but he is definitely not a man of character.

Cults
The Mormons have succeeded, to some extent, in "mainstreaming" themselves in the U.S. But their views are still cultish and their structure is secretive and incredibly controlling. Look, how would Mr. Grudem feel about voting for a Moonie? A JW? or a Scientologist? Don't let Mitt fool you. His Mormon beliefs affect him at his very core.
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