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Friday, November 03, 2006
Wayne Grudem  :: Townhall.com Columnist
Memo on prayer and the Nov. 7 election
by Wayne Grudem
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Please continue in much prayer for the election coming up November 7th.

Every day as I pray about this, and as I have been reading through 2 Chronicles at the same time, it does not seem to me that our country is in the same situation as ancient Israel in that period, where the leaders were all corrupt and led the people astray, and God brought judgment. Yes, there have been some corrupt people exposed in both parties (as the Lord in his providence “cleans house” and brings sin to light), but they surely do not represent the vast majority of people in politics today.

As I think through the different branches of US government (executive, beginning with the President, then the legislative branch, and judicial branch), and think about many people in leadership at the state level, I know of many, many people who are seeking to do right for our nation and are praying earnestly that God would grant blessing and success to their efforts. Many of them openly profess their faith in Jesus Christ, and many others are unbelievers but (by God’s common grace) are genuinely seeking to do what is right for the nation and have basically good goals for the nation (or so it seems to me).

Particularly with regard to President Bush, I was praying this morning, asking, “Lord, if you will not help this kind of a courageous President who earnestly seeks to follow you, and continually seeks to walk in paths of righteousness, then what kind of President will you ever help?” He has been frustrated by a wayward and timid Congress, and especially by a foolish Senate rule that effectively requires 60 votes to pass anything, but he himself has steadfastly done just what I (at least) had hoped he would do with regard to:

(a) appointing two excellent Supreme Court justices John Roberts and Samuel Alito,

(b) appointing dozens and dozens of Circuit Court and District Court judges who are committed to just interpreting laws, not making new laws from the bench,

(c) defense against terror – astoundingly, he has kept us free from attack for over 5 years (and been criticized and attacked for every part of that effort), and he has seen democratic governments established in the Afghanistan and Iraq, setting in motion a movement to change the history of the world by marginalizing Islamic terrorism in Muslim countries,

(d) school choice, doing what he can to promote this most significant of all needs to help overcome poverty,

(e) abortion – he signed the partial birth abortion ban law that President Clinton vetoed twice (1996 and 1997), and he has consistently been pro-life,

(f) support for a Constitutional amendment on marriage (which the New Jersey Supreme Court ruling last week shows we clearly need),

(g) the economy, pushing through several tax cuts that help everyone, and as the tax cuts have helped the economy they have done much good for the poor who need jobs, so that the economy has weathered both 9/11 and the 2001 recession and is now booming, the Dow Jones average is at its highest point in history, and we produce three times more goods and services than any economy in the world (we now produce about 33% of the world’s goods and services, and no other nation comes close),

(h) creation of jobs, with economic policies that have given a strong economy so that people who want jobs can find them (the unemployment rate today is only 4.4%, the lowest in years), something again that especially helps the poor,

(i) wise use of the environment, resisting the immense pressure to bring us onboard with the foolish Kyoto Protocol that is now harming European economies and helping nothing, and wisely supporting more domestic production of energy (especially ANWR in Alaska),

(j) embryonic stem cell research (that is, the creation of the beginnings of little babies just to harvest their parts), restricting federal funding and taking immense criticism for it,

(k) huge increases in aid to overcome AIDS in Africa, along with promotion of abstinence-based programs, for which he has again taken immense criticism,

(l) Social Security – he told the truth, and had plans to rescue it, but the timid Congress didn’t have the courage to touch it,

(m) faith-based programs – by executive order he is ending the discrimination against faith-based social services that actually work in changing lives through the power of Christ, and he had other excellent ideas, but couldn’t get Congress to go along,

(n) a sensible, comprehensive immigration program that included securing the border, some kind of path to citizenship for those who have broken no other laws and have been here working for some time, and also a documented guest worker program – good ideas, to my mind, in line with biblical injunctions to care for the “alien and sojourner,” but also including measures to punish those who do wrong -- but the Congress would not do much about it,

(o) racial justice and reconciliation, appointing prominent African-American and Hispanic citizens to high government posts, and pushing for education reform, which would do more than perhaps anything to overcome persistent Black poverty (but the Democrats and the public school lobby have fought this tooth and nail),

(p) seeking to repeal the wrongful “death tax” on personal estates (but the Democrats blocked it in the Senate, because of the foolish rule needing 60 votes to pass anything, never intended by our Constitution),

(q) appointment of wise, tough diplomats to key posts, like John Bolton at the UN, Condoleezza Rice as Sec. of State, and Paul Wolfowitz at the World Bank,

(r) personal conduct that is “above reproach,” giving moral leadership to the nation by example of life and by kindness that amazes me toward those in politics and in the press who continue relentlessly to attack him,

(s) probably many other things that I have by now forgotten.

(t) And all this in the face of a relentlessly hostile and negatively-biased press, and many people who simply attack everything he does, plus facing the daily responsibility of guarding our nation against the deep evil of worldwide terrorism.

What more could I ask from a President of the United States? You may differ with me on these things – it’s a free country! But these are my convictions, built up over six years of watching George Bush’s presidency.

Of course I have a few disagreements – I wish President Bush had not signed the McCain –Feingold bill to hinder campaign contributions and freedom of speech (but I don’t know what the alternatives were at that time, and perhaps McCain would have made any other legislation impossible for years). I also wish he had played more political hardball with Congress over greatly increased, wasteful spending (but I don’t know what the trade-offs were regarding votes for crucial issues of national defense and protection of the country from terrorism, and I know he sought a line-item veto to reign in spending and Congress would not grant it).

But overall I am so very very thankful for an outstanding, I think excellent President. He has done right. And he is changing world history in a right direction, a direction that will give more freedom for everyone to determine their own governments and their own religion, and (of significance to me as a Christian), more freedom for the proclamation of the gospel around the world, so that people would have a fair chance to hear and consider (but never ever be compelled to accept) that good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

What about the Iraq war? It is just that – a war, and wars are not won quickly or easily. We were attacked in an act of war on 9/11, and we had been attacked by similar terrorists many times before that. Finally we are fighting back, against an invisible, very skillful, very evil enemy.

When people complain, “It’s not going well,” I just think, “What you are saying is that we haven’t won yet. But that is because there are still evil people in the world who want to destroy Iraq and eventually destroy Israel and destroy us, and in some countries their governments are not stopping them yet. So this is a huge task, but we have no choice but to go forward. There will only be one side left at the end of this war, and I want it to be us, not the Muslim terrorists.”

It seems to me that what we need as a country is to unite behind the President in this war, not attack every move he makes (isn’t this what a country usually does in war?). For every U.S. soldier who dies there are many times more terrorists who are caught or killed (which I think in light of Rom. 13:4 is the right thing for civil government to do), and the terrorist movements simply cannot and will not continue a losing battle forever. Criticism of the war sounds to me like people are saying, “There are still some evil people in the world, therefore Bush is a bad President.” That is misguided reasoning, because there will always be evil people in the world, and the God-given solution, according to Rom. 13:1-7, is to prevent them from harming others through the use of superior force by our military and police. That is what President Bush is doing, and I don’t know if anyone else in the world could do any better. (Many nations are not even trying, just sitting back and letting us do the dirty work while they criticize!)

So I think President Bush has done a very good job as President, in an amazingly difficult time.I think if we did not have such a hostile press the President's approval rating might be well above 60%, if people were just aware of all the good this President has done. But his approval rating is low, and that affects the election. And I know that this election is more about him than much of anything else. What then will happen?

President Bush’s plans and goals will be stalled and he won’t be able to do much of anything if Democrats take control of Congress, for they will then control all bills that come to the floor, and probably start to launch endless “hearings” out of retribution for the impeachment of Bill Clinton, and they will seek to cut off funding for fighting terrorism (all spending bills must originate in the House), and probably “leak” more national security secrets to the New York Times (as the Times, I think in order to harm President Bush, already destroyed our ability to listen in on terrorist phone calls and to track terrorist funds without the terrorists knowing it). Democrats in control of even just the House would just make President Bush’s last two years miserable. And so I pray, and ask, Will the Lord allow that? Would that please him? I hope not. I pray not.

So I continue to ask God if he will still hear the prayers of so many millions of his people, who are still seeking after many years to change the Supreme Court so that abortion could be prohibited by law in our country, so that marriage could be protected and the homosexual agenda would be stopped, so that Muslim terrorist attacks against Christians and against the basic human freedom of people to govern themselves could be defeated rather than encouraged around the world, so that true reform and true parental choice could come to our failed public school systems that are robbing millions of poor children of a chance to be productive citizens for their whole lives, so that wise policies concerning the use of the world’s resources could be implemented, so that the tax cuts could be made permanent and even expanded, to further strengthen the economy, and so that the judiciary could be sufficiently reformed that the will of the people, rather than the opinion of judges, would be the determining factor in the laws of our nation. All this and more is at stake, and much of it will become simply impossible if the Democrats take control of either the Senate or the House.

I can become troubled and discouraged (and astounded) by the polls that I see in the news media, but I continue to be encouraged that God is still in control of the affairs of nations (Ps. 75:6-7; Dan. 4:17; Rom. 13:1). And so, I call out to him to have mercy on us (for certainly the sins of our nation are many) and to hear the prayers of his people for the good of this nation and of the rest of the world (Matt. 6:10; 1 Tim. 2:1-2). The Lord could certainly intervene remarkably in events and in people's hearts in the next few days.

Please pray with me for this (if you feel the same way).

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About The Author
Wayne Grudem, Ph.D. is a Research Professor of Bible and Theology at the Phoenix Seminary in Phoenix, AZ

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to that I say
AMEN!

God and Authorities
God appoints leaders for His own purposes. He could bless or curse us with an administration of any party in ways that we cannot foresee.

I pray that God makes us win the upcoming elections, but notwithstanding that request, that His will be done.

I believe that democracies, where they exist, are merely the means God uses for putting whoever He wishes in control.

Jerubaal
Great thought, J. I'm going to keep it.

watch out-- USA worse than 1920s Germany
"there have been some corrupt people exposed in both parties... but they surely do not represent the vast majority of people in politics today"

Let's not kid ourselves. Americans as a whole are corrupt. I'm surprised God hasn't judged America yet-- it seems that 1920s Germany got judged for a lesser level of corruption.

Haeckel and Buchner and a Darwinian, atheistic a-moral climate
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1118315214.069039.280490%40z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com

=====================
the atheism-adherent Hitler's actions are quite understandable
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1127506418.014874.230840%40f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com

Multi-Pronged Role of Darwinian Thought in Shoah's Arrival
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1132080322.482544.299440%40g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com

theological disputes among German Protestants
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1129228612.176548.107730%40z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com

Jerubaal
I've heard this kind of talk before, and it really puzzles me. How do you think that God is going to MAKE us do anything, let alone win an election?

His will is that we are free to choose our actions and live with the consequences. The idea that God personally appoints our presidents is just plain nutty.

Shall not the Lord do right?

Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

Thank you for noting the good things our President has accomplished. Thank you for sharing with us how you pray. President Bush has commented of feeling lifted up and sustained by the prayers of the people. Of course, those who are without knowledge have perverted his humility in reliance on divine guidance through Bible study and prayer. We can be thankful that God has raised up such a man to stand against the enemies of freedom, both foreign and domestic.

Our prayer is of the manner of Abraham for the righteous who lived in the cities of the plain recorded in Genesis 18…

And Abraham came near and said, “Would You also destroy the righteous with the wicked? Suppose there were fifty righteous within the city; would You also destroy the place and not spare it for the fifty righteous that were in it? Far be it from You to do such a thing as this, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous should be as the wicked; far be it from You! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?” So the LORD said, “If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.”

The Lord has many people in this country, but His wrath is already being revealed against those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness The language in Romans 1 is as clear as it gets. In the spiritual realm there is an undeniable link between radical naturalism and the increase in sexual perversion and lawlessness from depraved thinking.

Peter gives every believer a precious promise that is valid in all places and at all times…

‘The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance‘ [II Peter 3:9].


An outstanding article!!!
Thank you, Dr. Grudem, for this extremely persuasive piece. I hope it receives a wide reading!!!

Ben F: God governs in the affairs of men
"How do you think that God is going to MAKE us do anything, let alone win an election?"

God basically MADE Jonah go to Ninevah to preach repentance.

"His will is that we are free to choose our actions and live with the consequences."

Do you think God in any way restrains the amount of evil in the world?

"The idea that God personally appoints our presidents is just plain nutty."

Do you consider this "just plain nutty"?:

Benjamin Franklin, cited in
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=1129182815.118263.136880%40g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
"I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth-- that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid?"

pray for election day

vote as if your life depends on it
"President Bush's plans and goals
will be stalled and he won’t be
able to do much of anything if
Democrats take control of Congress,
for they will then... probably
start to launch endless 'hearings'
out of retribution for the
impeachment of Bill Clinton, and
they will seek to cut off funding
for fighting terrorism (all
spending bills must originate in
the House)"

satisfying Bush-hatred & fundie-Christian-hatred at cost of a mushroom cloud near you
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=1161093949.949736.293810%40m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com

this November, vote for POWER for secularist leftist Soros
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=1160841250.771887.184420%40f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com

don't vote, conservatives, and support the NYT & abortion & jihadism
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=1161270398.825774.60870%40m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com

how conservatives can help Hillary become President
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=1161972628.196615.313730%40k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com

impeach Bush, lose the war in Iraq
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=1159566826.668166.84460%40i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com

gameplan for puncturing U.S. superiority with defeat in VietIraq
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=1160009714.301336.126070%40k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com

parallels between Iraq and Vietnam
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=1161972867.081577.123200%40e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com

When the Repugs lose, what will al Qaeda think of the USA?
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=1161825335.330721.5750%40m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com

Mideast terror leaders to U.S.: Vote Democrat
http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=52747

atheism & sexual perversion
"there is an undeniable link between
radical naturalism and the increase
in sexual perversion and lawlessness
from depraved thinking"

Haeckel and Buchner and a Darwinian,
atheistic a-moral climate
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1118315214.069039.280490%40z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com

the atheism-adherent Hitler's actions are quite understandable
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1127506418.014874.230840%40f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com

Singer can't: oppose pedophilia while being consistent
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1151326524.293477.235520%40b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com

views of atheism-adherent Singer
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1141777876.224926.284110%40j52g2000cwj.googlegroups.com

Defeatocrat philosopher Singer OK with necrophilia, and breeding kids for organ harvesting
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=1161359432.620869.108850%40h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com

humans' choices
"the products of man cannot define
him for they are the fruit of"

Mark 7 (NIV)
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=mark%207;&version=31;
20 He [Jesus] went on: "What comes out of a man is what
makes him 'unclean.'
21 For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil
thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery,
22 greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander,
arrogance and folly.
23 All these evils come from inside and make a man
'unclean.' "

"Human is earth's Choicemaker. The sublime and
significant act of choosing is, itself, the Archimedean
fulcrum upon which man levers and redirects the
forces of cause and effect to an elected level of quality and diversity."

What are some choices Hitler made that led to "an elected level of quality and diversity"?

////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Hitler's actions make sense given his atheism and eugenic, social Darwinist vision
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1134145559.645139.229550%40f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com

The Christian’s Voter Guide
The Christian Vote

True Christian’s clear choice in voting according to scripture is neither of Satan’s political parties.

(Read my article on: True Christians at http://www.actioncross.net)

The Holy Scriptures says in 2 Corinthians 4:4 that Satan is the god of this world.

The “true” born-again believer is NOT TO BE PARTAKERS OF OTHER MEN SINS and keep ourselves pure as stated in 1Timothy 5:22.

Proverbs 17:15 says: He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even THEY BOTH are abomination to the LORD.

In regards to politics (the activities and affairs of a government) in order for a Christian to not be a partaker of this world political system sins they MUST not endorse (give approval or support to) this present day Babylonian system wickedness.


The true Christian ONLY biblical role in politics (the activities and affairs of a government) is to pray for those in authority of this earthly kingdom regardless of who they are: that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour. The Sovereign God gives kingdoms to even the abase of men for His Sovereign purpose. The Holy Scriptures declare that God is the origin of power, and the supreme Governor of the universe, he delegates authority to whomsoever he will; and though in many cases the governor himself may not be of God (George W. Bush, Nebuchadnezzar, Pharaoh, Bill Clinton, Herod, Saddam Hussein, Adolph Hitler etc).


This world’s system is ungodly no matter how many outwardly “good things” IT SEEMS TO DO. It does not reverence, obey, neither fear the True and Living God of all creation. It purposely, continuously, and blatantly dishonors the name of the Holy God and is fit for the recompense of its “ERRORS” promised to them that endorse and support its wickedness. Eternal Hellsfire unless they repent of their wickedness.

ALL persons who hold a political office whether they confess to be a Christian or not inevitably compromise a matter. For a “true Christian” if this compromise is contrary to the spiritual and lawful duties to God this person just willfully sinned violating the laws of God and conscience. (It is better to obey God then men).

Matters such as promoting evil and supporting wickedness: abortion, same sex marriage, civil union, covetousness, idolatry, inventors of evil things, fornication, adultery, lying, oppression of the poor, endorsing other religions as another way to the Father, and calling evil good and good evil.

1 John 3:7-8 LET NO MAN DECIEVE YOU: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth SIN IS OF THE DEVIL; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Through vain deceit of man’s earthly wisdom (philosophy) mixed with truths of Christianity many are taken captive in believing lies of not only politicians but many false teachers and prophets masquerading as angels of light, that are scattering God’s sheep today feeding themselves and ruining the flock.

LET YOUR VOTE BE FOR KING JESUS.

Repent (turn from sin), Invite Jesus Christ in your life and believe the Gospel unto the saving of the soul.


Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, COME OUT OF HER, MY PEOPLE, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye RECEIVE NOT OF HER PLAGUES.

Christians are to come out of this present day Babylonian system devoted to destruction and go forth looking to Jesus the author and finisher of the believer’s faith. Being doers of His word and not hearers only deceiving your own self. Denying yourself and taking up your cross daily and follow Jesus, being conformed to His image.

Do not get so entangled into the cares of this world were as you become unfruitful. Set your mind on things above looking forward to the new heaven and new earth and live accordingly. Wicked men hearts CAN ONLY BE CHANGED by the renewing of the Holy Spirit. As a Christian we are to live holy before God and go forth in keeping to the great commission of preaching the Gospel and teaching men to observe ALL of Jesus commands.

Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.


Bondservant of the Lord Jesus Christ,
William Taylor Sr.
http://www.actioncross.net












A great article

If only more could read AND THINK about it.

Ed

What?
A point by point discussion of 20 or so items that the president has moved forward with over the last six years, and all you can do is obfuscate with hyperbolic meecrob?

Murphy, stick to your guns. Jonah was "made" to go to Ninevah much like Tony Soprano "made" some schmuck "run an errand" for him.



Prayer and voting
"pray for those in authority of this earthly kingdom regardless of who they are: that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour. The Sovereign God gives kingdoms to even the abase of men for His Sovereign purpose. The Holy Scriptures declare that God is the origin of power, and the supreme Governor of the universe, he delegates authority to whomsoever he will"

With this I can agree, as I think Dr. Grudem would. The preceeding word "only" is an individual's interpretation, shared by many, perhaps, but only a view. Many other truths of Scripture would be corrupted if we put "only" in front of the passage.

It is certainly good to be reminded that the Sovereign Lord can work through donkey's and the king of wicked Babylon, if he so chooses. I don't think that means we are left to not choose. In fact, we honor the Lord's will when we bear witness that His Law is Perfect, and that while no one is justified by inadequate attempts to obey that Law, to give honor to those who promote obedience to the Law seems right. God declared some of the kings of Judah and Israel as "doing good", even though they were not perfect.

I don't see that we are "worse" than pre-Hitler Germany, even if there are trains of thought that are similar (e.g., eugenics then, genetic manipulation that involves killing today). Whether we are worse than not is secondary to God's just decisions as to when He allows/brings judgement or the gift of repentence. [I use "allows/brings" to recognize the mystery of God's sovereignty and man's responsibility. In physics I learned that light is both a wave and a particle. My mind does not understand how that is, even if I do understand that in looking at some problems the facts to apply are those that characterize light as a particle, but in other perspectives we apply facts of light acting as a wave.- If this seems confusing, my apology, just ignore it].

Murphy
My opinion, that God appoints all authorities, is entirely Biblical. The general principle, as well as specific examples, abound in the Bible. I'll include one citation of the general principle for reference.

God is God. He controls absolutely everything. He restrains and permits sin, appoints rulers, and causes the rise and fall of nations. If you do not know this then I encourage you to study further the Bible.

"How do you think that God is going to MAKE us do anything, let alone win an election? His will is that we are free to choose our actions and live with the consequences."

Uhh, because He's God. He can do anything. You ask how He does this? You may as well ask me the process by which He turned basic molecules into humans. I do not know much about how God governs the human will, but I know that He does. Possibly, He restrains the exercize of sin in their hearts. This can have wondrous geopolitical effects by itself. It can cause one's enemies to be passive and peaceful, or aggressive and belligerent.

Romans 13:1-2:

"Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment."

Reconciling those verses with the freedom of the will to do as the heart pleases is not required to believe what it says: every authority is appointed by God for His purposes.

MD in Philly
Hey Doc,

"In physics I learned that light is both a wave and a particle. My mind does not understand how that is"

It's a wave unless observed as a particle by a human observer, at which point it collapses into a particle. One way of looking at it is that it's location is uncertain and spread over many possibilities (a wave) until it can be pinned down by a conscious observer, at which point its location becomes definite (a particle) to all possible third parties.

I don't think we know why this happens. But anyway, it seems to me that light is either a wave or a particle... usually a wave. Not really both at the same time.

See the difraction slit experiment.

Wrong analogies
We were united in the war against Japan and Germany because Japan attacked us and Germany was their ally along with Italy for a while. Iraq did not attack us, Alcaeda did so we correctly responded by invading Afghanistan from whence the attack came and whose governmentm, the Taliban, was protecting the attackers, but then our President flew off on a tangent and attacked Iraq without provacation but on far fetched theories that Iraq was some kind of dire threat to our security which they were not. If we did not attack Iraq until Saddam Huessein tried to throw the UN inspectors out again then we would still be united and have more allies. There was no big rush to go into Iraq as the president thought. Even if he had WMD he was not about to do anything with them as long as the UN inspectors were sitting on his doorstep.

(j) embryonic stem cell research (that is, the creation of the beginnings of little babies just to harvest their parts), restricting federal funding and taking immense criticism for it,

These embryos were for childless couples for implantation into the potential mother's and the ones that would be used for stem cell research were the ones that were going to be discarded, not ones grown especially for stem cell research so the statement that they were deliberately created to harvested for their parts is nothing less than an out and out lie.

Hiding the Rev. Haggart...
Where is the story on Townhall.com about the hypocritical "oh, so Reverend" Ted Haggart?

Today, the Townhall home page blurbs feature two articles on John Kerry's "three news cycles gone" old rehashed story about a botched joke, yet there is not a mention of the philandering minister/leader of the evangelicals.

Yesterday, when the story broke and topped the news on every TV network except FOX NEWS - of course - Townhall.com dedicated four blurbs on its home page to "old news" John Kerry and nothing about the "I bought it, but I didn't ingest it" Rev. Haggart and his "male escort shopping spree."

Don't bore me with the he's-not-guilty-until-proven-guilty excuse. The preacher has admitted enough already to put him front and center on the news.

How transparent can this Web site be?

This glaringly obvious "oversight" should be an embarrassement to everyone connected to Townhall.com.

$
I did not notice God or Bush on my mail in ballot.
Considering their opposition, I certainly would have given them my vote if they were there though.

$
The only thing you can use Hollywood as a reference for is plastic pretend things.
Like for instance, the revolvers they use;
If you were to cram or push a REAL revolver against someone and fire it, The technical term for that is "Obstructing the muzzle".
The cylinder wall and the top strap would depart from that gun much like shrapnel from a grenade.
It would be very unsafe to be near.
In the Hollywood Plastic Dream World they use a plastic gun that does not even recoil.
See why movies differ so much from real life?

Slippery slopes are real.

As when social security numbers were to remain private, but now one needs to expose it everywhere, so the excuse it is only those embryonic stems cell that now exist it a fools argument. It won't take 6 months for them to harvest new babies for experiments.
How convenient it is for demonRats to forget America stepped in where the UN failed. And how deaf the rats are, “We shall go after terrorists and all states that sponsor terrorism.” The left is blinded by anger.
Iraq only is an excuse for them to preach hatred of Bush. They’ve hated him since he was Governor of Texas.
It certainly has become clear that when a leftie calls others racists they are really talking about themselves.
When the left calls Bush a liar, it is them who are lying. It is them who are the fascists and are dumb. They left has degenerated so much they don’t realize their own hatred is the karma that is going to increase the Republicans in the Senate and allow the Republicans to hold onto the majority in the house.
The real two party system is the Republicans and the Conservatives, and the battles will take place in the primaries.


Linda, Since You Are Cutting and Pasting
So shall I.

Linda, I found out about Haggart on a Town Hall article at the top of the page.

How transparent can YOU be?

Jerubaal
Your opinion that God appoints all authorities is not Biblical. Just because we are commanded to respect authority and be legally obedient does not mean that God personally appointed our mayors, governors, legislatures, and presidents.

Your belief that God controls absolutely everything is contrary to the fundamental Gospel message of FREE WILL. When people choose to obey God's commandments they are rewarded. When they disobey they are punished. Nevertheless, the choice is theirs. There is no coercion.

Don't bother trying to pretend that God appointed Hitler, Stalin, or any of the other heinous authorities in history.

If you really believe that God will appoint your leaders for you, I suggest you stay home from the polls on Tuesday.

THE MOST IMPORTANT THING YOU CAN DO FOR
THE MOST IMPORTANT THING YOU CAN DO FOR GOD, FAMILY AND COUNTRY


IS TO VOTE!!!


Not just when you have the time to do it, but at every opportunity that is given to you to do it.

If you do not vote, you are leaving your, and your families, fate in the hands of others. A low turnout on Election Day means that a fervent, well organized minority point of view can easily win and push this nation in a direction it might not want to go. The Iraqi people recognized this when 12 million people (almost 80% of the registered voters) faced threats of death from just such a fervent “terrorist” group and voted for democracy; a concept they didn’t quite understand but knew that its liberties would be far better than the tyranny that such a minority group would establish, given the chance.

So when you vote, make sure you know for what you are voting, and the repercussions that might result from an uninformed decision. Find time to study the issues and be committed to them before you choose. Know what groups have opinions and beliefs similar to yours and see what their recommendations on the issues are. Conversely, see what the opinions of those groups you oppose are and study their recommendations, then cast your vote wisely.

murphy
I enjoy this discussion; thank you.

Point-by-Point

"Your opinion that God appoints all authorities is not Biblical."

Here's the Bible: "For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God."

Institute... appoint. I think in context they mean the same thing. There is no authority that God did not institute, according to the Bible.

"Just because we are commanded to respect authority and be legally obedient does not mean that God personally appointed our mayors, governors, legislatures, and presidents."

That is correct. A command to respect does equal divine appointment. This, scripture, however, does:

"For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God."

That means that every mayor, legislator, and president is instituted by God. Both good and evil kings in the Bible are specifically named, sometimes centuries before their births, as having been raised up God for His purposes; Pharoah, Cyrus and Nebuchadnezzer are not the only examples.

"Your belief that God controls absolutely everything is contrary to the fundamental Gospel message of FREE WILL."

Why? Free will means choosing what most immediately pleases you, all things considered. How does God controlling everything diminish the link between choice and pleasure? It doesn't. God controlling the universe, the lifespans of men, the environment, and limiting the depravity of our pleasures in no way touches free will, which is merely the expression of the pleasures of the heart, all things considered, into choice.

"When people choose to obey God's commandments they are rewarded. When they disobey they are punished. Nevertheless, the choice is theirs. There is no coercion."

I completely agree. You always choose what most pleases you, all things considered (ATC). Reward and punishment is made on the exercise of choice, as you said. But choice is determined by what most pleases the heart, ATC. This is where salvation and damnation occur and have their effects. Left alone, we remain depraved in our hearts - in our pleasures, and so we always choose the sinful path that does not honor God, because we have no pleasure in the Way.

Salvation is known as a regeneration of the heart; a renewal of the mind. It fundamentally alters the pleasures of the heart so that the Way is pleasing to us, and because our free wills always choose what they please, we choose to honor God when our hearts are renewed with holy pleasures.

"Don't bother trying to pretend that God appointed Hitler, Stalin, or any of the other heinous authorities in history."

Again, the scripture says, "For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God."

He did appoint Hitler, Stalin, and the other heinous authorities in history, just as He appointed Nebuchadnezzer, Cyrus, Pharoah, et cetera. Do you really believe that God was unable to stop them from taking power?

He did it for His own reasons, and if mankind were innocent they never would have been raised to power. But we are guilty before God - there is no requirement in justice that we be spared such days of evil. God instituted them, as the Bible plainly says, for His own reasons that are withheld from our knowledge.

"If you really believe that God will appoint your leaders for you, I suggest you stay home from the polls on Tuesday."

I also believe that God saves people. Does that mean that they do not need to repent? Indeed there is a certain enjoyment of God's works that we have through our actions.

God does appoint leaders, and He saves people, but He has chosen to use earthly means to accomplish these objectives. Therefore, I participate in God's gift when I labor in activity.

As Ephesians 2:10 says:

"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

The good works that Christians perform were predetermined to happen before we were even born. they are set out by God - not us - beforehand, for this purpose alone: "that we should walk in them".

The good works that Christians perform are love gifts from God to us, not the other way around. That He rewards them as though they were labor is just more of His overwhelming grace.

Diefenbaker
In my worldview, the way to know what God wanted, after the fact is to see what happened. The God I believe in is never frustrated, and everything He wills comes to pass without exception or delay.

The reconciliations you need in order to understand this perspective is that God has two levels of desire. One is the little picture - the micro level, and one is the big picture - the macro level.

On the micro level, God's goodness means that He desires that every being honor Him and worship Him in white-hot love and passion and without even a hint of impurity. On the macro level, we know that He has a place for evil.

He put the snake in the garden along with the tree of knowledge and His images with the express intention of subjecting creation to futility through their sins. He did this for a greater good, among which is the revelation of all His glorious attributes of justice and mercy and love and His infinite lowliness of heart, though He is God.

He has a higher purpose for evil, and though it is a rebel by nature, it will serve Him forever.

To Learn More About Free Will
Read "The Freedom of the Will" by Jonathan Edwards.

http://www.ccel.org/download.html?url=/ccel/edwards/will.pdf

It's a required reading
for Philosophy doctorial candidates.

As a Pagan I say..
While I agree with most of this column, I have to say that prayers should be that the American people make the right decision, no matter what that is.

We are dust in the wind, and Deity is eternal. I may have a pretty good idea what the long-term view is, but I don't know for sure. I remember 2004, when people of my group of religions were being told, essentially, to pray and do spellwork for one particular party.

I lit my own candle, and simply asked that the right guy win. I may have my own ideas on the subject, but I'm not the One in charge.

I pray the same for this year.

I am praying for every Democrat
Bush and Rumsfeld have lost the confidence of both the military and American people in the midst of a war they started. See the latest editorial in the Army Times.

They were given everything they asked for to conduct that war by a united congress of democrats and republicans. The SQUANDERED that support. Now even the Army Times is calling for Rumsfeld's replacement. He's lost 60% of the American people's support for the war. We are bogged down in the middle of a civil war in Iraq, propping up a failed state, run by a corrupt government that takes its orders from bunch of religious clerics who want to establish a religious state.

This is an obvious disaster that is 180 degrees from any of the reasons we invaded the country in the first place. The only people who benefit from this failed war is Iran who is becoming the regional power (with nuclear weapons to boot) and their proxy army Hezbollah. The biggest demostration in Iraq in the last few years was the turnout to celebrate the Hezbollah victory over Israel in Lebanon earlier this year.

Wake up you snoozing conservatives and realize that this president is the worst disaster in the last century for American interests. If there is a god, it is a Muslim god rooting for Iran if he or she orchestrated Bush's ascendency to the presidency of the US.

All we get from this president is more "stay the course" baloney that takes us deeper into chaos in Iraq. Our men and women in the military deserve more and the best way to support them is to vote democratic this year.

Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld are the gift that just keeps on giving to Iran and Hezdbollah. We can't vote against them, but we CAN vote for a change in the house and senate.

I've done my part and voted early for every democrat on the ballot in my precinct.

slacker
"Wake up you snoozing conservatives and realize that this president is the worst disaster in the last century for American interests."

Only because the other president of this century was a lame duck.

An American Patriot
http://www.controlcongress.com

This is a letter from Michael Cutter, Former INS Special Agent, Registered Democrat

Notwithstanding the fact that I am a life-long Democrat, as were my parents, I was happy to travel to Indiana to appear at the rallies because although John Hostettler is a Republican; he is a true leader who possesses true Integrity. He refuses to accept PAC contributions and represents the people of his district and, indeed, the people of the United States.

In his capacity as Chairman of the House Subcommittee on immigration, Border Security and Claims, he has called upon me to testify at quite a few hearings concerning various immigration-related issues, most often where the focus was on the nexus between immigration law enforcement and national security and criminal justice. He did so, knowing full well that I would be highly critical of the administration and the President, where the issue of the security of our nation’s borders and the integrity of the immigration system were concerned.

It is time for all Americans to vote as “independents.” Neither political party represents the average guy anymore. The parties are all about power and getting more of it!

Republican Congressman John Hostettler has put his district first and stood up to his own Party as well as the lobbyist money changers in Washington. Congressman Hostettler did not crumple to pressure from Lobbyist and Washington to sell out the middle class with trade deals like CAFTA. He once again sent a letter to the President demanding we enforce our current immigration laws.

We need more men and women like Michael Cutter who will speak up for Congressman like John Hostettler who have not sold out to lobbyist. We need to think like Americans not Democrats or Republicans. It’s time we demand that Congress act in ways that benefit our Country.


Speaking of justice ...
If I believed in fairy-tales, I'd be much more inclined to see the workings of Satan in George Bush's career than of God. In six short years Bush has managed to:
- allow (or helped) terrorists to carry out the most lethal attack ever perpetrated on American soil,
- conduct the greatest shift in wealth from the poor and middle class to the very rich since the Golden Age,
- increase the number of American children living in poverty,
- tangle American schools in bureaucratic nonsense to the detriment of our children
- allow large corporations to plunder the American treasury, and diminish the health and well-being of American citizens
- maneuver the country into a disastrous quagmire in Iraq, sacrificing the lives of nearly 3000 brave American soldiers in the process,
- commit international war crimes by condoning the use of torture in military prisons
- double the national debt
- nearly cripple the U.S. military, including the national guard
- alienate a majority of the nations of the world and sully America's moral standing
- conduct an unrelenting assault on environmental protections
- jeopardize the lives of millions of Africans with his silly and ineffective "abstinence" programs and propaganda against the use of condoms
- impede potentially life-saving scientific research for partisan political purposes
- abandon a major American city and its inhabitants to the ravages of a devastating hurricane and misrepresent plans to rebuild the city afterward
- undercut the Bill of Rights and deprive American citizens of basic legal protections that date to the days of the Magna Carta
- pack the federal courts with right wing idealogues
- turn the lie into an official element of public policy

... and in general conduct himself in such a disgraceful manner that the office of the Presidency will be stained with his unwholesome memory for generations.

Disagree? That's okay. It's not worth debating these issues now, because on Tuesday the Republican Party will lose control of the House and - God willing! -the Senate too. Then, beginning in January, the monumental corruption, cruelty, and incompetence of the Bush regime will be laid bare for all to see and the only available option for you right wing wackos will be the silence of abject shame!

Pray about that to your ridiculous stone age diety. If he answers you as generously as he has the parents of all those soldiers killed in Iraq, you're in for quite a ride!

BrianR
I thought it was gone for good, but you had to summon it by speaking its name in that other column.

It's as if ajhil is also someone else on here.

Ask God what to do, or tell Him?
God's judgment is that we are innocent, because we still “know not what we do”. That is the level of the Prince of Peace that redeemed our world. The level of the Prince of War, is the level that too many are praying to, and that is why we are getting what we are getting. If someone told that God told them to kill someone, they would be locked up as crazy. But, when someone says that God told them to attack Iraq, why is their sanity not questioned? How death, deception, and debt must we pay for? If we had a liberal media, what was there that vast run up to war?

Too many are praying for something instead of asking what they can do. How much arrogance does it take to tell God what to do for us? How many have the courage to ask what to do and are willing to be still enough to know? What is God ready to tell you on each and every issue personally, when you have to courage to actually ask?

Mike
That's why I think prayer is a process of finding out what God wants and then asking Him for it.

Rose
"I hear Rat Poison works fast."

Oh now you're being evil. I heard that rat poison takes a while to build up in the system BEFORE it works fast.

W is "Down in the polls" teflon gone ?
WHY???

A well written article, and the amount of posts mean it helped people to think.

But I wanted to ask you have you thougt of the other item that keeps the USA from judgement? What is that you say? I think an honest review of scriptures and history would show the US of A deserves judgement, (which may have already started) Personally i feel the USA is being picked apart piece by piece.

But the subject it Bush and his role. Yes I feel he was put in power by God just as Clinton was, and both because we the people deserved them. In the case of Bush he was an answer to many many many prayers, after the disgrace of the Clinton years.

Yes I believe God is supreme and in control. I personaly do not believe Clinton was elected with enough votes. but was what God allowed and gave because He determined that was what we needed or deserved.

The other item I mentioned above is our relationship with Israel. No I am not a seething Zionist, but have read the Bible, and can understand that those who bless thee will be belssed and those who curse or work against will be cursed, and worse.

After Dr Rice got into her new job or around that time, she turned her policy against Israel, we forced Israel twisted thier arm to get them to retreat evict their own people out of thier own land, so fast most of those people still have no place to live. This is a great crime and travesty. It is an absolute contradiction of Bush's spoken principles od fighting terror and not rewarding terror. Why? Yes I am sure there was great pressure from Saudi's and others maybe, but where is the fear of God? Where is the understanding. Time has shown that one incident to be the absolute error it was. This has emboldened the "extreemists" brought Hamas to power, (this was predictable, btw I have seen a picture of W Bush and a leading Hamas US operative, arm in arm, while he was on the campaing trail 1996). Puzzle. Now it was US the USA who hled Israel back and why the higher command orders were so confusing, that the Israeli army was bound and less than effective. WHY?

But I wanted to bring to your attention. If you look back through the news, or reccorded history, you will find that Dr Rice and GW Bush turned on Israel with descisions like Gaza pressure and so on, and within a week or two his teflon was off. How? Who controls this? ... God does doesn't He?

It is a matter of history of just looking at it, that the same unprecedented things we forced Israel to do we were doing within a couple weeks ourselves in the peaceful USA. How can this happen. ...? God maybe? It is not jsut the hurricane, and the amazing events, but how the public support and backing, or hand of protection was removed, and GW has had a hrad row ever since, and has been going down down down.

This is a danger to the future of the USA. Since we have already earned judgement in all other ways, our support and friendship of Israel was the only factor to keep us afloat for a while longer. Now that is going away fast.

The interesting thing is, GW was elected from the prayers and will of the people. And God have been dealing with him, and his administration since the turning against israel, not the ocuntry as a whole so much. So the prayers, and heart of the people is maybe the last straw still holding. "If my people which are called by my name shall humble themselves and TURN from their wicked ways ..."

I find it hard to vote for a man or his policies who is endangering the future of the country.

But as one said, Bush or God are not on the ballot, so if each votes his conscience before God, and leave the results with Him then His will will be done.

He is firmly in control!

Stephen
1 Jn 4:18

To Murphy:
Murphy,

I would like to respond to your comment:
"Your belief that God controls absolutely everything is contrary to the fundamental Gospel message of FREE WILL. When people choose to obey God's commandments they are rewarded. When they disobey they are punished. Nevertheless, the choice is theirs. There is no coercion.”

I would like to remind you that God DID coerce a political leader in the Bible.

Exodus 10:1-2 says: Then the Lord said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these miraculous signs of mine among them 2 that you may tell your children and grandchildren how I dealt harshly with the Egyptians and how I performed my signs among them, and that you may know that I am the Lord."

God not only put Pharaoh in office (As Romans 13:1 says as Jerubaal repeatedly quoted), but he actually hardened his heart (it says that he hardened his heart over and over again in Exodus chapters 7-10) so that God could use Him for His divine purposes. This is the way that He chose to enact His plan so that he could demonstrate His power through all the plagues.

You said:
"When people choose to obey God's commandments they are rewarded. When they disobey they are punished. Nevertheless, the choice is theirs. There is no coercion.”

This point also does not hold up to this situation because God actually punished Pharaoh because his heart was hard.

The very next verses: Exodus 10:3-4 say:
3 So Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and said to him, "This is what the Lord, the God of the Hebrews, says: 'How long will you refuse to humble yourself before me? Let my people go, so that they may worship me. 4 If you refuse to let them go, I will bring locusts into your country tomorrow.

Pharaoh did not himself choose to do evil, yet he was punished for it. Apparently your idea of choice and justice is not the same as God's.
I am not claiming that I understand everything about God's justice, but I do know that he knows more than me and that he has the power to use evil for good. I can not tell you how to make sense of all of these things, but you claimed that what Jerubaal said is unbiblicial, so now I am telling you what the Bible says. The Bible is not always easy to figure out, that’s what makes it interesting!

The tide turns ...
YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Eat crow, all you right wing wackos - and that includes you, Rosie!

Your day's over!

Get it?

O - V - E - R

No more B.S. rubber stamp Congress for George!

Oversight! Subpoenas! Accountability! Justice!
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