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Wednesday, April 22, 2009
Walter E. Williams :: Townhall.com Columnist
Parting Company
by Walter E. Williams
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Texas Gov. Rick Perry rattled cages when he suggested that Texans might at some point become so disgusted with Washington's gross violation of the U.S. Constitution that they would want to secede from the union. Political hustlers, their media allies and others, who have little understanding, are calling his remarks treasonous. Let's look at it.

When New York delegates met on July 26, 1788, their ratification document read, "That the Powers of Government may be resumed by the People, whensoever it shall become necessary to their Happiness; that every Power, Jurisdiction and right which is not by the said Constitution clearly delegated to the Congress of the United States, or the departments of the government thereof, remains to the People of the several States, or to their respective State Governments to whom they may have granted the same."

On May 29, 1790, the Rhode Island delegates made a similar claim in their ratification document. "That the powers of government may be resumed by the people, whensoever it shall become necessary to their happiness: That the rights of the States respectively to nominate and appoint all State Officers, and every other power, jurisdiction and right, which is not by the said constitution clearly delegated to the Congress of the United States or to the departments of government thereof, remain to the people of the several states, or their respective State Governments to whom they may have granted the same."

On June 26, 1788, Virginia's elected delegates met to ratify the Constitution. In their ratification document, they said, "The People of Virginia declare and make known that the powers granted under the Constitution being derived from the People of the United States may be resumed by them whensoever the same shall be perverted to their injury or oppression and that every power not granted thereby remains with them and at their will."

As demonstrated by the ratification documents of New York, Rhode Island and Virginia, they made it explicit that if the federal government perverted the delegated rights, they had the right to resume those rights. In fact, when the Union was being formed, where the states created the federal government, every state thought they had a right to secede otherwise there would not have been a Union.

Perry is right when he says that there is no reason for Texas to secede. There are indeed intermediate actions short of secession that states can take. Thomas Jefferson said, "Whensoever the General Government assumes undelegated powers, its acts are unauthoritative, void, and of no force."

That suggests that one response to federal encroachment is for state governments to declare federal laws that have no constitutional authority null and void and refuse to enforce them.

While the U.S. Constitution does not provide a specific provision for nullification, the case for nullification is found in the nature of compacts and agreements. Our Constitution represents a compact between the states and the federal government. As with any compact, one party does not have a monopoly over its interpretation, nor can one party change it without the consent of the other. Additionally, no one has a moral obligation to obey unconstitutional laws. That's not to say there is not a compelling case for obedience of unconstitutional laws. That compelling case is the brute force of the federal government to coerce obedience, possibly going as far as using its military might to lay waste to a disobedient state and its peoples.

Finally, here's my secession question for you. Some Americans accept and have respect for the Tenth Amendment, which reads, "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

Other Americans, the majority I fear, say to hell with the Tenth Amendment limits on the federal government. Which is a more peaceful solution: one group of Americans seeking to impose their vision on others or simply parting company?

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About The Author
Dr. Williams serves on the faculty of George Mason University as John M. Olin Distinguished Professor of Economics and is the author of More Liberty Means Less Government: Our Founders Knew This Well.
 
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Worried...
"Which is a more peaceful solution: one group of Americans seeking to impose their vision on others or simply parting company?"
Unfortunately in a country where the primary object of consciousness is wistfulness for prosperity gone by, and moral principle is out the window due to complicity in tyranny and murder, I believe the average citizen will endorse illegal action against any state or group asserting independence. I have no buttons for smooth operators to push.
Once you have researched 9/11 truth just a little (start with http://www.ae911truth.org ) it becomes apparent that political atheism is the correct attitude. If mainstream news came anywhere near the truth on any of the major issues of our day, perhaps states wouldn't be considering seceding. One other link I would like to share: http://www.c-spanarchives.org/program/289609-6
Some things are more important than safety.
God bless!

Fuzzy (and Dr. Williams)
Fuzzy,
Why look? Why not, as suggested a few years ago, by Dr. Williams, create our own?
I'm all for it. I patiently wait for the "straw" that will break this country in two. Let's have a 6 year period in which populations, corporations, military personell and any other entity can chose to live in either one "country" or the other. Home exchanges, I believe would be a viable way for populations to switch places. A border like that between Canada and the USA with similar crossing requirements could seperate us. Isolated areas in both "countries" could be treated just as Alaska and Hawaii are treated. Resources could be handled with binding treaties.
This should be done now --amicably, before it happens violently. I firmly believe it will happen.
What's needed now is a congress person or senator with enough testicular mass (or the female equivalent) to bring to the floor a resolution to begin this discussion.

Hal Donohue
Why is it that when one disagrees with a liberal, the liberal almost immediately reverts to playground insults? "fake patriots" "cesspools of ignorance and poverty" do not move forward a genuine debate in accordance the concept of free political speech.
Nor does making things up, Mr. Donohue: it is a fantasy that "nearly half" the miltary voted for Obama; in fact only one in four active military personnel voted for obama.
Politicians do seem to lie very casually Mr. Donohue - that's why we don't like them.

looking for a country
Fuzzy:
You left out"
No Gun laws
Death penalty mandatory in capital cases--appeals limited to 1 review

I'm loking for a country
This is what I'm looking for in my next country (An option that can't happen too soon).

A Republic.
Liberty.
Capitalism.
Fair Tax.
Term Limits.
Strong Military.
No Sharia Law by anyone, ever. In fact - No Mosques.
No mandatory global warming crap of any kind.
Extremely limited Gov't with clearly defined powers and clearly defined penalties, actionable by the people.
Gov't has to live by the SAME laws as its citizens. No special treatment. No abiity to police themselves or investigate themselves. Congressional sessions last no more than 3 months/yr but with the right to call emergency sessions.

No Gov't schools.
No IRS.
No Federal agencies.
No allowable campaign contributions from anyone other than its own private citizens. No corporate donations. No non-profit donations. No donations from foundations, groups of any kind.

Gov't can suggest its citizens take recommended actions but has no ability to force adherence, even if the planet is "dying" due to global warming, freezing, incompetant boobs in charge.

Etc. Etc. Etc.

Who has more?

Mike from Tucson
What you described as a result of secession, doesn't appear much different from the direction we are already headed.

Akaqi
Thanks for the 'civil' discussion. I stand by my sentiment. Secession would have much the same effect as it did under Mr. Lincoln. To wit; a weakening of our union, martial law and gross suppression of civil rights. Plus the added and real danger of the rest of the world via the UN taking advantage through international fiat and picking over what's left of our bones.
I think, like many others that the next few years could set the stage for total federal control. Of everything. The threat of secession by conservative states will unfortunately play into and bolster that crappy scenario. It will scare the rest of the country. People who are afraid for their lives and their country will accept suppressive laws to gain security. Remember 9/11 and the 'Patriot act?'
Been there, done that. Dump the idiot incumbents, everyone. Not the country.

The War Between the States
Please read Kevin's (TN) comments; he is right on.

I am and always will be an Unreconstructed Southerner and would much have preferred that the Confederacy had succeeded in its bid to withdraw from the union. But the winners get to write the history books; so those old enough to remember that we, the Confederates, were entirely in the right continue to refer to that conflict as the War Between the States (yes, my earliest American history book actually published that name); or sometime, quaintly, the war of Northern aggression. But the fact is that our bid for freedom from federal domination was brutally crushed, and the states haven't had any rights since then that the federal government wanted to have. What's to be done? We're still at a huge disadvantage. God himself will have to intervene if we are to be rid of the illegal alien in the White House and the Democratically controlled Congress which runs roughshod over the Constitution to the end of impoverishing and enslaving all of us.

Hal @ 7:30
First, in regards to your comment concerning state sponsored segregation, the 39th Congress which brought forth the 14th amendment never said anything about ending segregation. On the contrary many of the northern states clearly were against such a thing. The concern was civil rights, and only a few radicals even brought up ending segregation. You continue to make a fool of yourself with your ignorant, unfounded comments. It would behoove you to make a thorough study of the history of this country, particularly the process of government, before you continue to attempt to engage in dialogue here.
Further, the 39th Congress never considered the Constitution done away with, otherwise why bring forth the amendments? During discussions of the 14th amendment most of Congress were very clear in stating that they did not see themselves as having any right or desire to interfere in the internal affairs of states. Highly ironic, but the point is that the "winning side" did not even see the Constitution as done away with. Certainly if it is done away with then a state would be all the more free to leave the Union, as the only possible claim to make them stay would no longer be in effect. Also, where then would the Federal government derive it's power, not legally, but only through a more obvious recourse to force.
One also couldn't say through "the people" as such a thing has never been put to the people. Of course much the Federal government has enacted has never been put to the people, as the amendment process has been bypassed, and powers just assumed. And that folks is why it is the Federal government that is the one in violation of the Constitution, thus freeing the other parties to dissolve their part of the agreement.

Akaqi
You are an imbicle. Its plain and simple

Kudos to (most) of my fellow commentors
I have been a faithful reader of Townhall.com commentaries for nearly a year. I wouldn't want to know the number of hours I have spent reading each and every comment posted in response to those commentaries. This article, on such a provocative topic, has inspired some of the most enlightening and inspiring of comments I have read as yet. The grasp of rights which we as American citizens has been eloquently covered, and should be read by every patriot, for the very survival of our beloved nation is definitely at stake. And most of all, I wish to thank Anne in PA for including the creed of the Oath Keepers. Her post needs to be provided to every member of the U.S. military, every member of our State Militias, and every member of our law-enforcement community, for all individuals included in those three groups will no doubt be ordered by our Marxist Commander-In-Chief to enforce unwanted Federal Government edicts against the American people. As an 11th Generation American, and a cousin of Benjamin Franklin, I truly hate to see what's happening to our country, and how weak we have become within just 100 days of Obama's administration. Unless our president "gets the message" that we won't abide being overrun by illegals, or bowing to "world government," or accepting the total overturning of the moral societal rules (one man/one woman marriage), I fear my hope that the United States will survive as an intact nation will be greatly dimmed.


Imposing their wills?
Far too often we who "dare" to bring morality in to the public discourse allow our voices to be drowned out by those that would subject us to their brand of morality.

We need to have this debates, but we must be honest that morals, right and wrong, do matter.

You guys gotta check out this brilliant piece I read on that very topic today.

http://robbymoeller.blogspot.com/2009/04/taxation-and-moral ity.html

kbTexan - correctomundo!
Somehow the exuberant political zealot has been mislead into believing (thinking has nothing to do with it) that they have some real effect on National political issues and people not within their resident political congressional districts / senators. They/We/I dont!
If state and local matters were as well watched/attended/ written about as national ones, the country would be far better off. The one hope that the GOP has (the real leaders know this) is taking care of business at the state level.
We have far more voting opportunities in the local and state elections than we do at nationals.
That is the message of R Perry and he truly hopes that you in TX vote in TX at the very next chance.

Dr. Williams
As per Gerald's post, I am extremely sorry for your loss of Mrs. Williams. I had not been aware of that.

I am truly sorry for this unfortunate experience in your life.

You are truly one of the greatest Americans I have ever had the privilege of being exposed to. You are truly of the same caliber as our founders and, as such, are a national treasure. I've never seen anyone who can put economics, or our founding first principles, into everyday layman's terms like you do.

God bless you sir, and may God's peace be with you and your wife.

kbTexan
There's just one problem with your Project 535 proposal: election of members of our Congress is done on an area-by-area basis.

Unfortunately, you and I have no say in whether Nancy Pelosi or John Conyers or Harry Reid or Teddy Kennedy keep their seats in the Congress the next time they are up for election. You and I and all other conservatives may hate the job the aforementioned four are doing, but our opinion doesn't count regarding whether they stay in the Congress.

Besides, not ALL 535 in our Congress are the problem.

Mrs Williams
Hi Walter, Some time ago while hosting the Rush show you mentioned the passing of your lovely wife. I was so sorry to hear of this. It's not fair, our wives are supposed to outlive us. I think they can handle the loss of us better than we can them. I knew you loved her very much by the wonderful and thoughtful presents you used to give her. ( eg. ironing board covers & golf shoes) God bless you both, I will keep you in my prayers. Smitty


Don't secede
Just take Washington back and bind them once again with the chains of the Constitution.

Project 535. Replace 435 Representatives in 2010. Replace 100 Senators over the next six years.

Yes we can!

HAL!
So, this is where you have been hiding. Babbling about the Constitution, Oliver North, and failed conservatism.

Oh and Hal, the military went overwhelmingly for McCain, especially the officer corps. If Obama used the Military against Americans who were only staying true to the Constitution, they woudn't obey him.

You never answered the question I asked you yesterday. Define Conservatism. You keep bringing it up, especially throwing in words like "extreem", but you don't appear to have a clue what it means.

Anne
"And actually he didn't disgrace himself or violate his oath."

A matter of opinion since he indeed did violate the Boland Amendment...a US law and as an officer he must uphold the laws of the United States which that was.

He also lied to Congress and was later charged with multiple felony counts of which he was convicted, but those convictions were overturned on appeal. So as to violations of his oath...a matter of opinion.


Mike
A civil war is when one faction wants to defeat the other and become the ruling regime and good example was the Chinese Civil War (1927-1949)which both the CCP and the KMT wanted to rule all of China. The southern states didn't want to take over the entire US (despite the idiotic claims in Kevin Wilmott's film CSA), but simply to leave to form their own country and be left alone. The best term for this war would be the War of Southern Secession because that is what it was--a war over southern secession.

If I recall, Japan and the US were in war too, yet, you can go to Japan and apply for US social security. If Texas became an independent country either because the US let it go its own way or Texas was able to defeat it in the war, yes, at some point, those who were eligible for social security could indeed get it in the ROT.

"And finally it resulted in a country which agonized over and still agonizes over it's terrible and needless destruction."

Yes, but you can thank Lincoln for that.


doofass-the-dimwit: WHY do you have

SO MUCH TROUBLE focusing???

Ollie North has nothig to do with this thread!!!

And actually he didn't disgrace himself or violate his oath.

YES, "... The only way for an officer to keep his Oath, is for him to assist those attempting to restore the Constitution, and resist those attempting to dismantle it."

That's EXACTLY what the Oath Keepers have pledged to do!

They're only stating that will NOT obey orders that violate the CONSTITUTION!

You gotta problem with that??????


Hal Donahue Hosts BBQ
Hal is hosting a BBQ this weekend at Barney Franks Apartment, they will be roasting and smoking "Sausages" in the living room, and they don't even need a Fire. Invitations not required, just follow the grunting and screaming noises you hear from the street.

Akagi
I wrote,(in thoughts about the dangers of secession) "Perhaps some time reading about the horrors of our nation's civil war might help."

You wrote in rebuttal, "First, is wasn't a civil war. Second, I've read a great deal about that war and walked a many of its battlefields many of which most here have never even heard of."

Your segue-in-theme has me a little confused. Oh well. As to "Civil War?" Perhaps Webster's and my grade school teachers had it wrong. Ya think? Naw, I don't think so Akagi. I don't think so at all.
The war of northern aggression; the war between the states; the civil war; Take your pick, or add your own. Regardless, it resulted in dead and mutilated bodies by the hundreds of thousands. It resulted in a rotting flesh stink so great that many of it's ruined veteran's could never stop smelling it until the day they died. It resulted in the splitting of thousands of families and in a hatred and bitterness beyond imagination. And finally it resulted in a country which agonized over and still agonizes over it's terrible and needless destruction.
Secession is not to be taken lightly.
As to your argument about entitlements still making it through to a rebel state, you're joking right? I mean, ya think the south's heretofore Yankee generals still got those monthly retirement checks from Mary Todd's husband?



CharletonHeston
"Date: Apr 22, 2009 - 6:09 EST
Hal Donahue .......... Cheers"

Thank you so much for making my day!

Hal Donahue makes me puke
What I would like to see layed to waste, would be you Hal and any other idiot espousing such ignorance and cowardly rantings. You are a Troll an Ugly Troll. we hate you Hal every one of us hates you, we are sick of hearing your un american opinions, you are an embarrassment to us all. Go away, far away........... Cheers

Huck Fal
Ouck Fbama

Joel-De Oppresso Liber
"Date: Apr 22, 2009 - 5:37 EST
The Oath
For Hal, who seems to have forgotten the words (I doubt he ever understood their meaning), and for those who have never taken it (again, possibly Hal), I preset the Oath taken by a newly commissioned officer of the US military. Note: this is the Army version, as that is what I know. The other services (and the enlisted version) may be SLIGHTLY different.

"I DO SOLEMNLY SWEAR THAT I WILL SUPPORT AND DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES AGAINST ALL ENEMIES, FOREIGN OR DOMESTIC, THAT I WILL BEAR TRUE FAITH AND ALLEGIANCE TO THE SAME; THAT I TAKE THIS OBLIGATION FREELY, WITHOUT ANY MENTAL RESERVATIONS OR PURPOSE OF EVASION; AND THAT I WILL WELL AND FAITHFULLY DISCHARGE THE DUTIES OF THE OFFICE UPON WHICH I AM ABOUT TO ENTER; SO HELP ME GOD."

Check the wording of this Oath. It is NOT to any President, Senator, Representative, or any other government official, elected or appointed. It is to the Constitution of the United States of America."

Amen to that. This is were Ollie North actually disgraced himself and violated his oath

"... The only way for an officer to keep his Oath, is for him to assist those attempting to restore the Constitution, and resist those attempting to dismantle it."

WOW we agree. That is why we, the people, threw the failed conservatives to the curb. And it is why I will not allow cowards to attempt to nullify a valid election or even a suspect one like 2000

akagi: You're right, but it was JFK,

another dem-o-crat!

dem-o-crats don't seem to be too happy about states rights.

But obviously, states are getting more keen on preserving states rights.




doofass-the-dimwit: Well, there you go!

According to definition #2 Obozo IS A TRAITOR!

2. a person who commits treason by betraying his or her country.

We don't even know if Obozo is eligible to BE pres.

And EVERYTHING he's done since his coronation has been Unconstitutional.


Anne
"10th Amend., and Posse Comitatus"

Didn't stop JFK from sending the 101st Airborne to Oxford, Mississippi in 1962. It was basically an invasion of the state by the US Army...1863 all over again. During the war Oxford was occupied and Confederate dead from nearby are buried there...the administration building known as the Lyceum was used as both a hospital and a morgue during the battle. One of the few pre-war buildings left on campus and that only because the former chancellor (a "Yankee") by the name of Barnard who appealed to Sherman (as Mississippi was in his district) to save it and he did--unlike say the University of SC that was burned to the ground.

There is a building named for him called the Barnard Observatory--the telescope that was ordered for Ole Miss never got there as the war broke out. It now is used at Northwestern University--to this day.


To secede--
If we in the great state of Texas were to secede, I would hope first that we would first have no sanctuary cities, and deport all the illegal aliens and their enablers.
If that were to happen, I would hope that other states with a like mind would do the same, and those good hard working conservatives who would want to move here would do so.

T: I live on the Main Line... Can you

please move to my neighborhood...

I'd really be much happier if an Oath Keeper lived close to me. :-)


Anne
I'll accept the invitation as long as I can put them out of their liberal misery. I'd still rather go hunting with Dick Cheney than drinking and driving with Ted Kennedy!

microace: Does doofass have to go to

Texas?

You could come here... I live only a few hours from doofass ... you could stay at my house!

I'll look up the hunting seasons! :-)




T_PA: You're an Oath Keeper?

Applause, Applause, Applause, Applause, Applause, Applause, Applause, Applause,


Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you.


YOU and the other Oath Keepers could very well be the ONLY ones to keep our great country still great and together... and safe from Obozo and the likes of doofass.

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you.Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you.Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you.

Hal
What do you think the racial make up of the Jefferson County school board is? I'd bet 100% black. Like to see what happened to Clayton County when it went majority black in Georgia--the schools went tango uniform that is what happen. Sorry, not racism. Whitey didn't do it to them, they did it to themselves. Crim High School in Atlanta is over 90% black. It has a graduation rate of 18% and when enough students did take the SAT so the state could publish the results (last time only 4 took it), the combined math/verbal was 530 or so. You get 400 for turning in a blank sheet. This isn't white racism's fault, but their own.

gahotdog
"Date: Apr 22, 2009 - 5:02 EST
Way to go, Texas Gov. Perry!
Were truth be known, I'd bet most Americans over the age of 55 are with you in mind and spirit..."

Not most but a goodly number I suspect thank goodness they are more than halfway across life's stage

n
"Call it whatever you like but when 51 of 100 senators vote the same way on a bill it becomes law isnt that so? YES or NO?"

No.

To pass most things in the Senate you need 60 votes, not 51 and to change the rules you need 67. These are in place to protect minority rights. The Senate bill then has to be combined with the House bill in conference and then the president can veto it and that takes 67 votes in the Senate and 291 or so in the House. And even if that happens, the SCOTUS or the appeals court can strike it down as Unconstitutional. Sorry, the US is not purely a majority-rule country. See McCreary County v. ACLU of Kentucky or as far as that goes Free Speech Coalition v. Ashcroft or ACLU v. Reno. I bet in all these cases the vast majority of the public agreed with the law that was struck down.


doofass-the-dimwit: Focus, Focus, Focus.

"First a correction it should read 'the failed bush's invasion.'"

That's just your crazy, wild eyed, left wing opinion... which, btw isn't worth much.

"...Since Congress authorized the "war" the enlisted troops could not refuse based on an "unlawful order."

Focus here, lets get this first point out of the way... Congress authorized the "war" in Iraq, which made it a "legal" and "lawful" war, and therefore the troops had no legal basis by which to refuse to go! Okay?? :-)

Now, "if Congress declares say TX in revolt..."

Ah haaa.. "revolt?" What would be a revolt?

However, it would be "illegal" and "unlawful" for your pres. or Congress to send troops into Texas!

Do you know why?

I'll help you out here!

10th Amend., and Posse Comitatus.

Look them up, buttercup! :-)


"...However, the Oath Keepers are ..."

"Trying to politicize the military..."

And you know this how? YOU Don't! You made it up because it's convenient.


Get their attention
If secession talk gets the Washington's attention, so be it. I would hope that there are other states that would join in. When the South seceded the first time, there was discussion in Congress and the press about just letting them go their own way, but when Ft. Sumter was fired on, that changed everything. As for the divorce item posted by Georgiaboy61, great post (although it seems to be the same post as the "Letter from a Law Student" on Neil Boortzs' web site, maybe they are connected). I would add letting the left have both the NE coast as well as the Pacific coast just for the privilege of driving the inhabitants into the sea in a few years.

Akagi
"Date: Apr 22, 2009 - 5:00 PM EST
Hal
"The red states overall are cesspools of ignorance and poverty. What percentage of Texas is now Hispanic does anyone know?"

Texas is 35.9% Hispanic estimated in July of 2007 based on 2006 data..."

We discussed this. I had hoped that it was more well let's see the next census is coming

"...Yes, Hal 9/10 of the poorest states voted for McCain, but want to bet the poorest counties in those poorest states didn't. The poorest counties in Mississippi for example are majority black--Leflore County is 70% black, Sunflower County is 70% black, Washington County is 65% black, Issaquena County is 64% black, Claiborne County is nearly 90% black and has one of the highest black populations by percentages in the country, Jefferson County is nearly 90% black and has the highest black population by percentages in the nation of any county and one of the most heavily Democratic counties. Now, who do you think these counties went for? Obama or McCain?"

Read what was written and ask why is this so? If conservatism worked why this disparity? Nope the South isn't racist?

T
"Date: Apr 22, 2009 - 4:58 PM EST
Hal
Your answer speaks volumes. The perfume smells clear to here, Herr Donahue."

Oh calling me names now? LOL That sounds about right

"....I AM an Oath Keeper, Proudly..."

If you are a serving officer I hope that you reconsider politicizing the military and if you do not I hope you are bounced - you are violating your oath. Nothing else but the oath is required

"...I said it before - may history forget ye were our countryman."

I just hope you keep your commissioning oath and are not the weakling that you seem

Stands
Nope. I bet Hal is like Burnside who came up with the hare-brained plan at Petersburg. He also was the one that was behind the Fredericksburg diaster.

And Hal:

You might want to know that Jefferson County is the 17th poorest county in the US and the poorest in Mississippi--and it votes almost 100% for the Democrats.

Anne
"Date: Apr 22, 2009 - 4:50 PM EST
Question! Certifiably crazy people,

and people with Alzheimer's, aren't
allowed to carry, are they? :-) Whew!..."

The NRA must be fighting for approval though LOL

"...I have to look it up, but I'm pretty sure that before anyone in labeled a "traitor" they get to have a trial first!"

trai·tor
/'tre?t?r/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [trey-ter] Show IPA
–noun
1. a person who betrays another, a cause, or any trust.
2. a person who commits treason by betraying his or her country.
Origin:
1175–1225; ME < OF < L traditor-, s. of traditor betrayer

"...But, there's .... accusing us of being "traitors" just because his guy is a Marxist, and we disagree with his Marxist ideology."

Nope for talking revolt

"... Obozo didn't win by a vast majority, and according to Rasmussen, 54% of the "main stream" demos agree with the Tea Parties, which means, they disagree with Obozo."

Nope I agree with the tea parties LOL I want them even bigger. Most about 70% think Obama is heading in the right direction

"... while you are disliking having a president of colour,,,,"

That was low and ignorant..."

but accurate

Way to go, Texas Gov. Perry!
Were truth be known, I'd bet most Americans over the age of 55 are with you in mind and spirit.

Hal
"The red states overall are cesspools of ignorance and poverty. What percentage of Texas is now Hispanic does anyone know?"

Texas is 35.9% Hispanic estimated in July of 2007 based on 2006 data. Yes, Hal 9/10 of the poorest states voted for McCain, but want to bet the poorest counties in those poorest states didn't. The poorest counties in Mississippi for example are majority black--Leflore County is 70% black, Sunflower County is 70% black, Washington County is 65% black, Issaquena County is 64% black, Claiborne County is nearly 90% black and has one of the highest black populations by percentages in the country, Jefferson County is nearly 90% black and has the highest black population by percentages in the nation of any county and one of the most heavily Democratic counties. Now, who do you think these counties went for? Obama or McCain?

Hal
Please come to Texas and go hunting with me and Dick Cheney. I'm not anti-american I'm anti-stupid.

Hal
Your answer speaks volumes. The perfume smells clear to here, Herr Donahue.

I AM an Oath Keeper, Proudly.

I said it before - may history forget ye were our countryman.

Anne, T, Joel-De Oppresso Liber
In answer to the question on whether he'd fire on his fellow Americans, the Bard of Scranton answered, "Depends on why. If rebels shooting at troops, you bet I would and follow them into their homes and straight to their graves. Sherman would look like a nice guy".

SHERMAN?! HAH!

In such an encounter, I'm betting the Bard of Scranton would much more resemble Gen. James H. Ledlie than William T. Sherman: at the Battle of the Crater on July 30, 1864, while his troops charged forward, Ledlie huddled in a bomb-proof shelter with a bottle of booze!

Native Texan
I thoroughly enjoyed Mr. Williams' column, and I liked Governor Perry's comments. As just for all you people who don't live in the great state of Texas, this is not the first time the subject of secession has cropped in Texas. During the fuel crisis of the 1970s, you could see "Secede Now" and other like-minded bumper stickers all over the state. And the reason was because the people here felt that they were being lied to regarding the shortage of fuel. A lot of the domestic oil and gas is at least refined here in Texas, and many of the people here just did not believe that there was such a great shortage. You could drive down the road and see oil pumps pumping 24/7. So, individual people took it upon themselves to remind others that Texas was once a Republic before it joined the United States, and that it was not impossible for it to become one again.

And the people who were saying this were not ignorant. They were well-educated and many of them were cosmopolitan. It is just that Texans do not like anyone trying to tell them how to live their lives. We are very independent-minded, and we like to make up our own mind as to what we are going to do. We don't want anyone in the county seat, Austin or Washington, D.C., to tell us how to live.

I personally can't believe that so many people are getting so riled up on such a passing remark. You should be more concerned about the reason who so many people all over the US attended TEA parties. The fate of future generations depends on what we do right now to stop the federal government increasing taxes and trying to regulate every aspect of our lives.

Spend some time and really study the Constitution and the history of income tax and then decide if the federal government is or is not overstepping its bounds.

Question! Certifiably crazy people,

and people with Alzheimer's, aren't
allowed to carry, are they? :-) Whew!

doofass-the-idiot shouts, If "you traitors..."

I have to look it up, but I'm pretty sure that before anyone in labeled a "traitor" they get to have a trial first!

But, there's doofass accusing us of being "traitors" just because his guy is a Marxist, and we disagree with his Marxist ideology.

"... take up arms because you lost an election..."

NO, that's a liberal thing...They whined and cried, and behaved like children for eight years. "Bush stole the election... whaaa whaaa whaaa..."


"... and the vast majority are trying to restore the nation..."

Geeze doofass, where did you get that "vast majority" crap???

Obozo didn't win by a vast majority, and according to Rasmussen, 54% of the "main stream" demos agree with the Tea Parties, which means, they disagree with Obozo.

"... while you are disliking having a president of colour,,,,"

That was low and ignorant. There are any number of people of color we'd be MORE than happy to have as pres. Just not Obozo the Marxist who hasn't done one thing according to the Constitution.





microace
"Date: Apr 22, 2009 - 4:39 PM EST
David
Hal said:
"The red states overall are cesspools of ignorance and poverty. What percentage of Texas is now Hispanic does anyone know? " in post #28. Hmmm. predjudice dosen't fall far from the tree"

Hey anti-American how about context and the rest of what was said? Like I have a Latin family

David
"Date: Apr 22, 2009 - 4:28 PM EST
Hal
WHy do you lefties always play the race card! It has become so purile and pedantic, .... Very few if any real cons care what color he is."

I disagree. I suspect with some justification (magic negro song for one example) that race is a large part of the old white core of conservatism's hate of all things Obama.

Anne
"Date: Apr 22, 2009 - 4:26 EST

"Well a number of troops are in jail for saying that the failed bush invasion was unconstitutional and immoral."

First a correction it should read "the failed bush's invasion"

"...Since Congress authorized the "war" the enlisted troops could not refuse based on an "unlawful order."

So if Congress declares say TX in revolt the troops would not supress and disarm the "citizens" shooting at them?

"...However, the Oath Keepers are ..."

Trying to politicize the military

David
Hal said:
"The red states overall are cesspools of ignorance and poverty. What percentage of Texas is now Hispanic does anyone know? " in post #28. Hmmm. predjudice dosen't fall far from the tree.

Joel-De Oppresso Liber
"Date: Apr 22, 2009 - 4:19 PM EST
Hal=King Man
Hal wrote: "...president of colour..."...Hal is just waiting for Obama to finish pretending to be the President, and declare himself King, so that Hal can finally bow and prostrate himself to his false Messiah."

LMAO I bow and prostrate myself to no one. I am an American

Hal
WHy do you lefties always play the race card! It has become so purile and pedantic, predictable........should I go on. You hear the very rare person identifying as conservative speak of the race of the president but truly a rarity. Yet everyone of you lefties will drop that card. Very few if any real cons care what color he is.

doofass-the-dimwit wiggles...

"Well a number of troops are in jail for saying that the failed bush invasion was unconstitutional and immoral."

Another "non-answer from the doofass!

Since Congress authorized the "war" the enlisted troops could not refuse based on an "unlawful order."

However, the Oath Keepers are saying that they will not obey orders that are in direct contradiction (unlawful) to the Constitution.

For example:
1. We will NOT obey orders to disarm the American people.

An order to disarm the American people would be an "unlawful order" because it's in direct violation of the Second Amendment

"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, THE RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS, SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED."

But, poor doofass-the-dimwit doesn't get that part.


Insighting truth and Akaqi
The issue of a democracy is moot so lets drop it I agree with you, however how do you reconcile that the constitution allows for majorities to be the determining factor in how things change? How is the constiutuion amended? How are laws passed? Call it whatever you like but when 51 of 100 senators vote the same way on a bill it becomes law isnt that so? YES or NO? If my math has not escaped me 51 of 100 is what??????? I hate talking to jacka'sses who couldnt find their butts with 2 hands. You 2 were seperated at birth you talk alot but say nothing. No matter what you call it its a majority

Mike from Arizona
"Perhaps some time reading about the horrors of our nation's civil war might help."

First, is wasn't a civil war. Second, I've read a great deal about that war and walked a many of its battlefields many of which most here have never even heard of.

Since the social security was earned when they were a US citizen, they would still be entitled to the money. Such checks can be routed into any bank. Bank of America for example has branches all over the world. You can get your money wired in from the US and then access it from anywhere that has a BOA branch. Of course outside the US, there would be transaction costs in regards to exchange rates.

In many countries, you can apply for social security--e.g. Hong Kong, Japan. Otherwise, you can contact this SSA office in Maryland to accept applications and the like.


T
"Date: Apr 22, 2009 - 3:01 PM EST
I asked you a direct question
Hal -

Would YOU obey an order to fire on your countrymen?? YES or NO, that is a SIMPLE QUESTION.."

Depends on why. If rebels shooting at troops, you bet I would and follow them into their homes and straight to their graves. Sherman would look like a nice guy. If you traitors, take up arms because you lost an election and the vast majority are trying to restore the nation while you are disliking having a president of colour,,,,



T_PA: HA! What did I tell ya! :-)

doofass-the-dimwit had No answer for YOU, and a non-answer for akagi!!!


But, about doofass' comment, "And yet you would urinate on the Constitution by taking up arms against it and become a domestic enemy?"

Actually, the ONLY person who is "urinating" on the Constitution is Obozo!!! EVERYTHING he's done since 01-20-09 has been UNConstitutional!!!

If anyone is a traitor, it's Obozo!




Truth
"It says what the framers wanted it to say, and requires no interpretation by the courts."

Sure it does. Take say ACLU v. Reno. Is material on the Internet that is protected by the Constitution if it were in print, protected on the Internet? Is symbolic speech as in Texas v. Johnson protected or not? Does the 14th Amendment in regards to all persons born apply to those born to non-US citizens which was the basis of US v. Wong Kim Ark? Is rounding up US citizens and legal residents without any due process constitutional such as in ex parte Endo and Korematsu v. US. Can a president have US citizens tried in military tribunals when the civilian courts are still in operation (Ex Parte Milligan)? And on and on and on. Sorry, the Constitution is silent on many a issue and the courts must using it and established law decide the issue.

Freedom
If any state decides to withdraw from the union, then I for one would gladly move there.
freedom, freedom, freedom....

Akagi
Sorry, but I don't expect a contemporary 54th Massachusetts from the 21st century Bay State, either.

Robert Gould Shaw, its commander, was a man with enough courage of his convictions to actually put his life on the line for something he deeply believed. As I and Reba and others here have posed, see any liberal Bay Staters today that would put their life on the line to do something that would be rough for them? Again, I sure don't.

Also, a NEW Confederacy, in this case simply meaning a union of latter-day seceding states which I believe would go far beyond the domain of the OLD Confederacy, wouldn't be holding people who didn't want to remain in it against their will like the old Confederacy held slaves against their will: in fact, its people would be DELIGHTED to be rid of liberals and others who decided they'd rather live in states still under the government in Washington DC than the states under the government of such a new coalition and would definitely not bar the door to their egress out of the new secessionist union. So there would not be the kind of cause to prompt the formation of a NEW 54th Massachusetts or a regiment like it.

Funny thing is, years ago I actually read a fiction paperback book whose thesis was that Texas had seceded after a war that devastated the United States and even kidnapped the then-U.S. president who had tried to arrange a peace conference between Washington and the leaders of the new Texas republic - and a coalition of America's AND Israel's armed forces had formed an expedition to try to get the president back. The book was called "The Texas-Israeli War".

Texas has
many retirees that come for sun, fun, good medical care and low taxes. I wonder if the head-fed would still keep sending those Soc. Sec. and Medicare bennies etc. etc. should the Lone Star State once again became a republic...and the money for roads...ouch!
Secession could easily lead to anarchy. Anarchy never makes people more equal. Our own revolution did NOT make most colonists more free; for the most part just the well off property owners came out well. In a few years post revolution the common people learned to resent the expanding federal government and it's meddling as much or more than they ever did the King.
When we are young and have yet to learn patience, we sometimes in childish rage break the things that irk us. We are older now and hopefully capable of adult reasoning and restraint. Perhaps some time reading about the horrors of our nation's civil war might help. Then think in multiples of that tragedy happening in our more highly populated era.
As to we the tea party people. Many think that this latest and growing coast to coast street theater may well be needed for national reformation and reaffirmation of our faith in America. Be aware that we are greatly hated by those who would disrupt us by subversion and force; with agent provocateurs and media stooges. Be ready!
If nothing else, it's a heck of a lot of fun to goose the God King! He looks so silly when he shrieks and jumps.

n
"We conduct business in government based solely on the idea that the majority makes the decisions! Show me the proof that our systme was conceived to protect the minority from the majority."

Totally false. The framers were indeed concerned about tyranny of the majority which often tore apart democracies from the past. Thus, they limited the ability of pure majority rule. The president was elected by a body of electors who were until the 1820s, selected in most cases by the members of the states' legislatures, the US Senate was selected the same way until the 17th Amendment, only the House was directly elected.

Federalist #10 also covers this issue. The fear of factions tearing apart the nation and how to combat that. The framers never intended the US system to be simply a majority-rules system.

n:
I am old enough to have been drafted in 1970.

We are a republic, sometimes referred to as a "representative democracy", but I think the later term is misleading. The word democracy does not appear in either the DofI or The U.S. Constitution.

For a primer on our form of government, look up what the framers had to say about democracy. They did not look upon majoritarianism with favor.

I defend the Constitution as it was written. And, as it was intended to be read. As a document it requires very little of the reader. It says what the framers wanted it to say, and requires no interpretation by the courts.

Why Waste Time !!!
Seceding from the Union? As soon as we start to enjoy the fruits of our labor, the RINOS would elect Senator Kay Bailey "For The Children" Hutchinson who is no different from President Obama. In the frist 100 Days, Texas would be exactly like what it just seceded from. A State wide "Smoking/Tobacco" ban and a 90% Tax if you smoke the cigareetes you have left in your home or on your on land. A complete ban on guns, that would include BB Guns and cap pistols. Texas "For The Children" Universal Health Care, and Texas would join the States who have amended their Constitutions to give Gay Marriage, Dog Marriage,and any other Perversion the same status as Marriage between a Man and a Woman. If Texas secedes and elects Perry you will get 95% of that and an increase in your property and sales taxes.

Obviouvly, we have a lot of people who

don’t know the difference between
Secession and Sovereignty.

Secession: to withdraw formally from membership in an organization, association, or alliance.

Sovereignty: the exclusive right to control a government, a country, a people, or oneself.

One need not have anything to do with the other.

In this case, Texas, like the other states who have declared Sovereignty, is simply putting the fed govt (Obama) on notice that they will not allow the fed govt to overstep the 10th Amend.

The only question is, will Obozo “get the message?"

Akagi
"Date: Apr 22, 2009 - 12:41 PM EST
"....Are you really in the military? You are under no obligation to follow an illegal order--they teach this to the grunts in basic. If any superior gives you an illegal order you are obligated not to obey--e.g. My Lai--saying you were only following orders is no defense."

You are 100% correct BUT you do it at a price. And as you pointed out in the above posting. If Congress directs action approved by the president to take action, you will obey, resign or go to jail all actions taken by officers during the Iraq invasion. You cannot have military commanders deciding what is or is not constitutional. That is why oath keepers etc are so dangerous politicizing the military

"...Refusing to go to Iraq can't be seen by any rational person as an illegal order. Murdering US civilians could."

Well a number of troops are in jail for saying that the failed bush invasion was unconstitutional and immoral

Stands
Yes, but you might have the modern day version of the 54th Mass or the 1st SC Volunteers--ethnic solidarity and all that.

STANDHISGROUND - I AGREE
These wimpy Liberals who posts here are all made of ideology, no substance. They have never felt a bead of sweat on their brow by doing anything that could be rough for them.
That's why they talk that way.

They don't know what determination and real guts are. I grew up in a family who migrated to Texas before the civil war and heard stories of settlers who fought Commanches, Mexicans and the Union Army. No sissies among them and that strong independent spirit lives on today.

Today's Liberals are even afraid of the word, terrorist, concerned it might hurt somebody's feelings and yet the President they voted for is releasing all of our CIA records to our enemies. What a group of traitors they all are!




Insighting truth
You are correct rights are not bestowed by the creator they are endowed by the creator to individuals who make up groups. Whether a group will possess majority or minority status at some random point in the future has no bearing on the concept of majority rules. That exist seperate from who is in the majority or the minority.

We have a REPRESNTATIVE republic. You obviously have no idea what that means. How old are you insighting truth? Did your teachers fill you with this garbage?

We conduct business in government based solely on the idea that the majority makes the decisions! Show me the proof that our systme was conceived to protect the minority from the majority

microace
"They would probably pass some bills granting Texans special rights since we are a minority."

Why not. They tried it with Quebec in Canada (Meech Lake Accord--it failed--the English provinces didn't seem to want to bend over for Quebec's demands).

And the place I reference, is Allatoona Pass where Hood tried this crazy attempt to cut Sherman's supply line in October 1864. Monuments there to Texas, Mississippi, Missouri and I forget who else.


Akagi
As I indicated in my prior post, today's America - especially that part of it that is now blue-state America - is universes apart from the America we had immediately after Fort Sumter was fired upon.

DON'T be looking for a contemporary Irish Brigade or a Fighting Zouaves from New York State or a new 20th Maine to fight secessionists in the America of the 21st century. And as I also indicated before, I think that any future secession effort would be much more geographically widespread than just what was the old Confederacy.

Given how paranoid so many liberals today are about firearms, can you imagine an ARMY of drafted, much less volunteer, soldiers from such a segment of the population? I sure can't. As I indicated before, they'd have all they could do to avoid shooting THEMSELVES with their weapons before they'd be able to focus on shooting the enemy.

Also, can you picture President Obama as being as strong and resolute in a war situation as Abraham Lincoln?! Don't make me laugh.

T: doofass-the-dimwit is probably trying

to figure out how to "answer" your question "without answering" your question.

Actually, doofass is quite good at that... We think it's a gift. But, more than likely, he'll just ignore your question and return when he thinks everyone has forgotten... It's another gift... :-)

But, it's am excellent question, and not much different from the "water board" question.

What would they do if the life of a family member depended on getting intel from a detainee?

I'm betting that these whiny liberals would be sing a different tune!




T
Back in 1962 some thought it a good idea that a black attend Ole Miss, but some didn't think all so much of the idea and a riot broke out in Oxford when James Meredith tried to attend classes. Kennedy sent in the 101st Airborne to restore order. No matter what you think of the issues involved--sending in federal troops to restore order should be chilling. This wasn't the governor asking for help...this was the President of the United States basically invading the state of Mississippi--I am sure Hal approves.

Ironically, James Meredith became a outspoken critic of the "civil rights" industry, worked as an advisor for Jesse Helms, accused liberal whites of being "the greatest enemy" of African Americans, opposed economic sanctions against South Africa and making the birthday of Martin Luther King, Jr. a national holiday. He has run a number of times as a Republican for elected office.





Akagi
Hey you finally woke up! I was afraid I wouldn't get to hear from you today. I agree with you and know about the Texas boys that didn't come back from Georgia in '65, but that was a whole other time and place. I think the liberals today would first want to talk to us and find out why we were mad at them. After they had talks with us then they would probably want to give us some concessions in order to try and win us back over. They would probably pass some bills granting Texans special rights since we are a minority. Let's face it Liberals feel our pain!

I asked you a direct question
Hal -

Would YOU obey an order to fire on your countrymen?? YES or NO, that is a SIMPLE QUESTION

I am waiting for an answer, herr...

Standing
"I absolutely love how these sissified liberals think that their kind would crush Texas militarily in a secession attempt."

Well, they did it in 1865. Come up here to Georgia I'll take you to a place where some of those Texas boys never came back from.

This is all moot as Anne said, Texas ain't going no where. So you can all but down your se'ces flags and all the liberals can stop talking about invading Texas--plenty of them anyway in Houston and Austin.

Shorts
"I'd hate to break it to you , but where is Texas suppose to buy weapons from if the US moves all military bases and weapons prior to the Texas succession ?
I'd hate to remind you that all Military Hard ware belongs to the US federal Government..."

Same place the CSA got theirs. If Texas left the Union, it would seize the modern day version of the arsenal--so Fort Hood, Fort Bliss, Corpus Christi and Kingsville Naval Air Stations, Lackland AFB, etc. would all be seized. The Texas Guard would be pretty robust then, eh? Too bad no silos as then it could be a nuclear power as well.

If Texas secedes,
what would their House and Senate members do going by party? Would democ-rats stay in DC? Would conservatives return to and remain part of Texas?

n:
What question did you pose, that I did not answer?

The creator does not bestowe rights on the collective us. Rights are held by the individual only.

Because members of today's majority may be members of tomorrow's minoity, there are necessarily limits to the concept of majority rule. That is why the framers formed a republic, not a democracy.

The answer to your question:
There is no evidence that a minority should be placed above a majority. Our system was conceived to protect the minority from the majority.

Ewok:That's one of doofass-the-dingbat's

problems.

He doesn't understand that every one of the orders the Oath Keepers refused to obey follow the Amendments...

That's why doofass is a dingbat!




Reba & other Texas conservatives here
I absolutely love how these sissified liberals think that their kind would crush Texas militarily in a secession attempt.

These people cower before Al Qaeda and Muslims here in America. They're going to stand up to a stateful of armed citizens who will have every reason, if Texas should secede, to fight to the death (because if the U.S. becomes the kind of hell under Obama that would touch off a secession effort, no conservative would have any kind of life worth wanting to continue to live in the U.S. for)? Yeah, RIIIIIIIIIIIGHT!

If Texas breaks away, hopefully a lot of the rest of the old Confederacy, Oklahoma, and a good share of the Great Plains (like Missouri) and Rocky Mountain West states will join it. Then the sissified liberals won't be just fighting Texans; they'll be fighting plenty of others with just as much reason to fight with all they have as Texans.

Unlike after Fort Sumter was fired upon, NO WAY are northern liberals going to "flock to the colors" to preserve the Union this time around. And if the federal government tried to force them to fight, for the ones who didn't flee, they'd probably wind up shooting THEMSELVES with the weapons the government issued them before they'd be able to bag any "enemy".

Jim
Thank you! Illegal aliens takes on a whole new meaning when you are talking about people from New Jersey and PA. We could probably let them in on a workers visa and they could do our lawns or roof our houses.

Hal Reply 186
You are a vial old fart. Why do you hate so much? urinate on the constitution and become a domestic enemy? Isn't this what Obama is attempting to do? Ewok understands our founders did not trust BIG GOVERNMENT - something you seem to eagerly promote.
Throw the bums out of Washington DC. March on Washington DC September 12, 2009

Republic of Texas
For those interested, were Texas to secede from the "Union", the largest National Guard unit in the US would be placed on the border. Not just of Mexico but along the US border also. So for those who would want to come here if Texas were to do that, you would have to show up early.
A benefit to us would be that the US doesn't impose strings on foriegn aid like they impose on Federal Funding to the States. We wouldn't have to have illegals build fences, we would have the US Peace Corps show up, if invited. As far as being a third world country, if the current administration has it's way the USA will soon be a third world country and English will likely be a second language. First being either Arabic or Chinese.

Ewok
"Date: Apr 22, 2009 - 12:26 PM EST
Hal.
Actually, I spent several years in the military duty bound to defend the Constitution against enemies both "foreign and domestic". Friends of mine died fulfilling that oath. I take the Constitution and the freedom it guarantees very seriously. I take the hundreds-of-thoudsands who have died protecting it very seriously."

And yet you would urinate on the Constitution by taking up arms against it and become a domestic enemy? Yup you are indeed a traitor or did I misunderstand you?

SHORTS
You Jersey guys don't understand Texas or Texans. First of all, when the fight started against Mexico in the 1830's, many young men from other states came here to participate in the fight. Second of all, most Texans are well armed and not all military bases could be moved in less than a year, many military men/women would stay if there is an insurrection. San Antonio alone has 5 military bases. Texas had it's own Navy util 1968, with so many ships in dry dock, it would not take long to build another navy.
Texas employed 70% of all new jobs in the USA in the past year. We have a surplus in our treasury. Gov Perry did not buy into all of the federal and state entitlement programs as did California and other states that are about to go broke.
We are a right to work state, very few unions, one of the most stable housing markets in the USA, even today.

So Senor Shorts, your attempt to belittle Texas is a lost effort. I really don't believe secession will be necessary. We still have the options of voting the bums in Washington D.C. out of office. We'll leave the option of secession on the table for now.



no one would stop us
Nam 65-66, you have missed the point: ALL states have the irrevocable right to secede. The eleven 1860-61 articles of secession were nullified by force, but the right to secede is inviolable. Nowhere in the US Constitution is secession prohibited, not even in the post-Civil-War amendments thereto, and the Tenth Amendment reserves that and other unspecified rights to the states and the people.

Hal D, you seem to think that Obama supporters would put down their Gameboys and Play Stations in order to take up arms to prevent the secession of Texas. Or maybe you envision an army of college professors and ACORN activists sweeping over the border and arresting the government of sovereign Texas. No, you think that American Armed Forces personnel, many of them native Texans, would obey orders to open fire on their fathers and brothers in order to keep the latter from exercising their God-given rights. Don't count on it. And Hal, you needn't worry: we wouldn't be taking your country. We'd be taking only ours.

All you folks who'd want to move here after we secede, I urge you first to attempt to take your own states out of the Union. Unless you live in the likes of Massachusetts or California, you could well succeed. The more that try, the more likely we'll succeed.

Diane in NJ: you detest our *topography*?? This is the first time I've run into that complaint. Except that it's warmer down here, I'm not sure what you have up there that you couldn't also find somewhere here.

Reba, they won't miss any of that, not even the gas: after all, we'll still be selling it to them. When the US achieved independence from Great Britain, the first thing they did was to resume trading with the British, much to the consternation to our ally France.

Pat, the example you invoke is best illustrated by Robert E. Lee, who opposed secession but could consider no alternative but to fight for his Virginia homeland.


+++

OlGrumpy, et al. This "Texas sovereignty

issue is nothing more than Texan drawing a line in the sand... no different from the other states listed above... Reply #144.

Don't pay any attention to wimpy & limpy shorty... he lives down wind from a toxic waste dump and it's diminished his mental capacity...

States union
The Union did not create the states.The States created the Union.You can have one with the other but not one without the other.
States were very fearful of this arrangement
As George Washington led his men across the Delaware,do you think he was concerned about the lack of ammunition,clothing,food,shelter,and shoes.
His needs were obvious,the need to unite and win the our first war were obvious too.
I think it is time to reexamine the powers of our Federal Government.

Anne, Reply # 177
You picked the wrong part of the human anatomy. I lived there for almost four years and know that NJ is where you put the enema. At best it is a bedroom community for NYC, if you consider that best.

Immoral Majority
If, truly, the majority of Americans say to hell with the 10th Amendment, who cares? It was less than half of the original colonialist that wanted Independence and were not willing to fight for Independence. The majority then was against it but laid back and prospered by it. I am proud to say that my ancestors did in fact fight for the Independence of AMERICA as well as the Independence of TEXAS. The same is going on today. The majority of Americans are on the Government teet and are not contributing to the prosperity of the Nation, but trying their best to suck it dry. So as usual we will drag them along kicking and screaming. And again they will prosper.

Shorts
"Where you learn about the Economy?"
Did you every take 3rd grade grammar?
"you export because the the rest of the states send good to be "
Send good what? Evidently they don't teach English in New Jersey. Before you start talking about someones education, you might want to take a GED course. Where are your facts? What goods are imported? I hope you are the first one across the Red River, I'll have you in my sights for sure.

Shorts
Inasmuch as you appear to be a liberal from NJ who would know all about such things, I'm guessing "shorts" refers to the size of your teabags. But, again, the invitation is open for you to come on down here and then go home and tell mama you got whupped by an old man. I'll even tell the border guards to let you in, despite your NJ citizenship.

And, just for the record, there might be any number of US companies opposed to over taxation and regulation that would be happy to remain in(not relocate to) the Republic of Texas.

Finally, you young people better be worrying about that tax bill your chosen one has laid on you. Us old ones won't be around to pay it for you.

OlGrumpy; You're RIGHT about NJ!

One big toxic waste dump! The arm pit of the country!

In fact, most people don't know that you have to have shots and a visa just to transit the state.

Now, if NJ wanted to secede, no one would care, and probably no one would notice!

Well, the air might be better..... LOL




Texas
I would move to Texas right away if they did it.

Insighting Truth
Ok I will do what you have not done and that is answer a question. Your question was : "from where do the many derive the authority to deny the rights of the few?"

Rights are bestowed upon us by the Creator as pointed out in the declaration of independence which was the moral basis for disobeying a king whom the founders felt was tyrannical. However it has never been a belief that all rights are executable at all times especially where one person's rights deny or impact on another person's rights. With that in mind reasonable societies establish rules of conduct that intrude on everyone's rights yet such limits on rights is agreed upon for the public good. In a representative republic such as we have in America decisions are made on the concept of majority rules. Since the Constitution allows for changes in government based on the idea that the majority rules it seems entirely appropriate to assume the founders had no problem with subverting the rights of the minority to support the rights of the majority. That should be obvious. You may not like it but its clearly the case. Now answer the question I asked you. Heres another....where is there evidence that the minority should be placed above the majority?

And what implies
that Texas stands alone? I would be a might cautious about expectin' a pushover. After all the Union Army expected the same once...

I propose a rule for Townhall - anyone who uses the childish OMG's, LMAO, etc... should be banished to the children's table until they learn to speak like adults. Anyone who includes one of these in a text should have it immediately rejected.

Grow up, fer cryin' out loud...

Come and take it.
To everyone who wants Texas to go and take Bush with us. We'll be glad to. Anyone who thinks we would be worse off doesn't know enough about Texas to speak. We have 3 of the top 10 largest cities in the U.S. we on top in Oil production, Cotton, Wheat, and Wind Turbines. NASA may not belong to us, but the Johnson Space Center is in Houston and all the Rocket Scientists that work there live in Houston. The Pantex plant in the panhandle assembles all the nuclear weapons the U.S. makes and disassembles them and stores the plutonium. We've got the Houston ship channel. 99% of all the Helium in the world comes from Texas. San Antonio has more retired Generals living there than anywhere else in the U.S., guess we would have some sort of leadership for our Army. As a Nation Texas would rate 15th place in the world economy, it's already second in the U.S. We have 100 billion dollars in trade with other countries now making us the largest exporter in the U.S. We also all carry guns and any of you left wing tree hugging wussies want to come here and try to take them, I'll oblige you. Of course you'll receive the lead first.

shorts, from NJ, of all places
What makes you think anyone in Texas cares one whit what you think? You are one of those "good riddance" types who would be the first to throw a hissy fit if Texas were to secede. But come on down here and try to disarm us, if you dare.

Shorts, Reply #166
"LMFAO"

F and A being the operative abbreviations.

AH COME ON HAL
Do you think we Texans are worried about any orders from Obama should Texas decide to secede from the Union. After the secession is declared, Obama will want to negotiate without conditions with our governor. Before Obama could make a decision, all of Texas will have locked and loaded and built forts along all borders. Military, plenty of retired military in Texas who still believe in the oath they gave to defend our constitution.

Hal, you still talk like you are a brother to Barney Frank. All stutter and slober, no substance.

Tedmug:
I do not argue against myself, because I do not base my arguments on the gay perspective. Nor do I base my arguments on a Christian perspective.

The government is involved because it has inappropriately taken upon itself to power to extend special privilege to a subset of human society. Consequently another subset of humans steps forward to demand special privilege.

The solution is to eliminate the special privileges. Treat all persons equal under the law. Do that, and both sides are left without an issue.

I'd move to Texas...
I know Washingtonians are too nannified to object to the fed takeover...Seattle liberals and their Karl Marx statute have been the undoing of our proud state.

As opposed to the basket case that is
New Jersey? Are you serious?

The people of NJ (at least the welfare cases that stay there) would elect a psychopathic child killer who chopped up his victims and fed the remains to feral cats as long as he was a "good" Democrat. How's that property tax rebate working out for you? Educational system?? I Know - you're gonna get a break on your auto insurance this year, right? The refugees keep coming to Pennsy to escape the dump they created, but the fools are voting the "D" line and spreading the cancer. It's difficult to educate them when they keep their hands out and mouths open - it's pitiful.

USPatriot56: Thanks. Interesting that

S-O-M-E-O-N-E hacked her site.

Wonder who THAT might have been? Hmmm???

Obozo's henchmen perhaps? Heaven knows, they've had a LOT of experience hacking and scrubbing sites they're not happy with...

States Rights
If states want to leave the union they should be free to do so. Isn't that what liberty is supposed to be about? Texas was a republic before it joined the union and won a war with Mexico to become a independent republic. Of any state that could make it on its own from the USA I would say Texas could pull it off. I live in CO but was born in TX and would move back to TX with the right job opportunity or to retire.

For a certain individual in PA who has a different opinion on this he knows that he can take his opinion and where to stick it! Sounds like a communist from the old USSR days.

I support the states taking the actions to take back the states rights and powers that were given to the Feds in the past. If that doesnt work then leaving the union is the next step.

And if the communist wannabes want to stop us with threats of military force I would remind them that the act of military force against a state that has left the union is an act of war. Do you really want to start a war over this? With Texas?

If states seceded,
there would probably be 100 new countries. How would that work?

Miss USA
Andy, the incident you reference was not the Miss America Pageant. It was the Miss USA contest. A judge named pair-less hilton asked the gay marriage question of Miss USA California, Carrie Prejean. Girlie-boy hilton later posted a video rant in which he bashed Miss Prejean for her answer, thereby establishing his lack of manliness beyond all reasonable doubt.

On another note, I was born in Texas. I have dozens of cousins living there. My extended Texas family includes Hispanics and Blacks. I love them all. They are not some hyphenated ethnicity, but are simply Americans. I have already told The Wife, that if Texas secedes, I am returning to the land of my birth. I would be honored to fight along side them for our Freedom. I would rather die than be a slave to some communist bozo. My distant kinsman, William Wallace, by his own death in the name of Freedom, inspired his countrymen to claim theirs.

If the obumadroids insist on prosecuting members of the Bush administration for the crime of defending the USA, that just might be the final straw.

n:
The question is simple enough. Why can't you answer?

Dr. Orly Taitz
If you are looking for Dr. Orly Raitz you can find her new blog here:

http://www.OrlyTaitzEsq.com

She is fighting to force the fake POTUS to prove his citizenship.

She is a major force. Visit her site.

Thanks,
USPatriot56

Anne
You are exactly on with Oath Keepers.

wimpy & limpy shory: Stupid argument!

Texas has no intention of leaving...


insighting truth
You argue against yourself if marriage is only a problem because governments got involved why do gays insist that the government get involved by recognizing their "marriages?" Just have your own little secret "marriage" ceremonies, if necessary, and everybody will be happy.

Akagi
China was having an identity crisis going from a dynastic system that they had been accustomed to for thousands of years. There was a brief interlude with a Christian leader who may have been successful if Mao hadn't been killing all the Christians. From then until today China has had the current communist regime. We've discussed this before, but if you compare America to China, there is no comparison. A free people can do so much more than an oppressed people. China can copy anything better than anybody, but they aren't allowed to think and be innovative.

Side by side, you can see the image of God better revealed in a free people. As far as the personal sacrifice involved in freedom. That's the model Jesus gave us, lay down your life for someone else. If you believe in Christ you are going to heaven. 'To live is Christ to die is gain.' I would gladly die so you could live free. Many people who preceded us agreed and gave their lives so we can live free.

God did give us free will. If you are a person who has given your life to Jesus, then your relationship has been restored with God. You are walking and talking in the Garden again and there is nothing you say or think that he wouldn't be interested in. There is nothing He won't help you deal with.

That being said, there is always evil that needs to be pushed back with prayer.

Texas Bill of Rights
For those of you who might be interested, go to the following link and check out the Texas Bill of Rights, noting, in particular, sections 1, 2, 3, 9, 17, 19, 27, and 29. And, if you think we are not serious about it, read section 23.

http://www.constitution.legis.state.tx.us/

And, by the way, the Texas Constitution had to be acceptable to the Union for Texas to become a state, and it was.

T: Oath Keepers!

http://oath-keepers.blogspot.com/2009/03/oath-keepers-decla ration-of-orders-we.html

OATH KEEPERS: ORDERS WE WILL NOT OBEY

Click text above to read full length version.

1. We will NOT obey orders to disarm the American people.

2. We will NOT obey orders to conduct warrantless searches of the American people

3. We will NOT obey orders to detain American citizens as “unlawful enemy combatants” or to subject them to military tribunal.

4. We will NOT obey orders to impose martial law or a “state of emergency” on a state.

5. We will NOT obey orders to invade and subjugate any state that asserts its sovereignty.

6. We will NOT obey any order to blockade American cities, thus turning them into giant concentration camps.

7. We will NOT obey any order to force American citizens into any form of detention camps under any pretext.

8. We will NOT obey orders to assist or support the use of any foreign troops on U.S. soil against the American people to “keep the peace” or to “maintain control.”

9. We will NOT obey any orders to confiscate the property of the American people, including food and other essential supplies.

10.We will NOT obey any orders which infringe on the right of the people to free speech, to peaceably assemble, and to petition their government for a redress of grievances.



Military, Veterans, and peace officers who will honor their oaths to defend the Constitution, will NOT “just follow orders,” will stand for liberty, and will save the Republic, so help us God. Our motto is:

"Not on Our Watch!"


doofass forgets the Nuremberg Principle IV.

"The United States military adjusted the Uniform Code of Military Justice after World War II. They included a rule nullifying this defense, essentially stating that American military personnel are allowed to refuse unlawful orders."


oops
Sorry, I mistyped "there" in my second sentence, I meant to type "their stock-in-trade."

I Second the Motion!
Scott...I certainly second your motion to designate Hal Donahue Court Jester of Townhall. In addition to his sophomoric LMAO, LOL, et al, he, like lefties everywhere, resorts to the even more childlike name-calling and reliance on DNC talking points that is there stock-in-trade...devoid of thought as they appear to be, this is all they have to offer.
I believe I suggested once before that we all let him make his first asinine foray into these Townhall forums, but that no one thereafter responds to him. He will no doubt continue to post his foolhardiness, but at least he'll not get the satisfaction of a reply. He may actually go away (I hope not because he is entertaining to read), and he most certainly will continue to vote against American principles and for left-wing, Marxist ideology (there's a sobering thought for you), but at least he'll have less fodder for his lightweight cannon.

Insighting Truth
The ONLY sensible thing I can pull from that question is you are using some form of rhetoric to make a point otherwise you sound completely insane.

Just ignore doofass-the-dingbat...

His Alzheimer's is progressing more quickly than expected...

It's sad, but that's, in part, what makes him so cranky, controlling, and de-lusional ... And he does like to be in control, doesn't he?

Perry did nothing but draw a line in the sand!


umerous states are currently declaring or have already declared sovereignty, including:

Washington

New Hampshire

Arizona

Montana

Michigan

Missouri

Oklahoma

California


Georgia

And Possibly:
Colorado
Hawaii
Pennsylvania (Ruh-Roh doofass!)
Montana
Arkansas
Idaho,
Indiana
Alaska
Kansas
Alabama
Nevada
Maine
Illinois

It is interesting to note that Arizona explicitly speaks about continuity of government and the role of servicemen.

.."if the President or any other federal entity attempts to institute martial law or its equivalent without an official declaration in one or more of the states without the consent of that state ...
individual members of the military return to their respective states and report to the Governor until a new President is elected;..."

"The Tenth Amendment was intended to confirm the understanding of the people at the time the Constitution was adopted, that powers
not granted to the United States were reserved to the States or to the people. It added nothing to the instrument as originally
ratified." -- United States v. Sprague, 282 U.S. 716, 733 (1931).

And so it is today that we find ourselves at the same juncture, a continuation of the revolution that began so long ago. Be you Loyal to the Government or be you a defender of the Constitution, for they are not synonymous. There is no left and right, there is no longer a difference between the actions a Democrat and a Republican and absolutely there is no such thing as a liberal or a conservative in this case."


So much for Obozo's 'uniting!'

Thank goodness for the Oath Keepers.




Akagi -
The tragedy at Kent State was NOT that the soldiers (young and fairly inexperienced) fired on the crowd - In fact, they fired ABOVE the heads of the crowd. Two factors come into play: 1) The National Guard was in a physical "bowl" or depression in the landscape 2) Bullets obey gravity. None of the wounded/killed were in the crowd surrounding the NG's - they were all far away and killed by indirect fire. There was stupidity to go around here - but the soldiers did NOT fire on the crowd.

I am not familiar with Ole Miss - can you elucidate?

Waco and Randy Weaver are two examples, in MY opinion, of why we need leaders who do not blindly follow orders - I personally would have jailed Lon Horiuchi. That was a despicable act, but please do not tar every Uniform with that. I have refused orders which were illegal - Officers who do so (sorry, Hal) do NOT all go to Leavenworth.

Bottom Line - Leadership counts.
And thinking IS required.

"I Was Only Following Orders" is possibly the most despicable phrase an Officer can utter.

Geithner
The Treasury Secretary is blamed by some for misdiagnosing Indonesia's problems while he was at the IMF (which is less well-run than IHOP.) They went from 6% rise in GDP to something spectactularly unspectacular.

He reminds me of the chainsmoking dimwit in Under Seige II.

How do you organize the fall of a nation?

Hal
"LMAO if you really are a commissioned officer you know full well that you do not get to decide what is constitutional not constitutional..."

Are you really in the military? You are under no obligation to follow an illegal order--they teach this to the grunts in basic. If any superior gives you an illegal order you are obligated not to obey--e.g. My Lai--saying you were only following orders is no defense.

Refusing to go to Iraq can't be seen by any rational person as an illegal order. Murdering US civilians could.

I hope Governor Perry is serious
and not saying this just to get re-elected.

If he is serious, I hope it does happen when they try to railroad voting rights for illegal aliens and try to steal all our elections with 30 million illegals voting in dems and keeping Obama president for life. THAT would be good grounds for secession, and I'd be happy to join the new Republic of Texas!

HAL
Read the Commissioned Officers Oath and check the UCMJ. I Stand by my statement.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE stop the LMAO - this is about to be declared torture by the administration. What are you going to do next? LOLs??? OMG??!!

Would YOU obey an order to fire on your countrymen?? YES or NO, that is a SIMPLE QUESTION

T
"And which Officers will obey orders to fire on their countrymen? Will you give that order?"

They did at Kent State, they invaded Ole Miss, hundred years before they raped, burned and killed those that their president claimed were still their fellow citizens...paramilitary thugs like the FBI and ATF had no problems murdering Randy Weaver's two children and wife did they? The US military I expect would be no different than the PLA on June 4, 1989 or the KMT military in March of 1947 on Taiwan.


Georgia Boy 61
Wouldn't that be great if something like that divorce agreement could be worked out?


T
"Date: Apr 22, 2009 - 12:19 PM EST
Who will obey?
Hal -
"Given the nastiness and immorality of the treasonous extreme right wing I suggest that 80% of America would not hesitate to "...lay waste to a disobedient state and its peoples."

And which Officers will obey orders to fire on their countrymen? Will you give that order? If I received that order do you think I would obey? As an Officer I have NO legal obligation to follow an UNCONSTITUTIONAL order. ..."

LMAO if you really are a commissioned officer you know full well that you do not get to decide what is constitutional not constitutional The officers in Leavenworth who refused to go to Iraq found that out


Scott
I only hesitate to second the motion because he isn't even funny. Asinine, a fool (A poor translation: polazniye idiota) and juvenile - but not funny.

CH
"Both confederate and union prayed to the same God for victory, but only one side won the war. The confederacy had the right to secede, but in my mind they did it for all the wrong reasons. God picked sides..."

God probably has better things to do than pick sides in war...if he did then Chiang Kai-shek (a Christian) would have won over Mao (an atheist), God would have stopped China from saving the DPRK, the Russian imperial system (based on Christianity) would have survived, the French would have won in Indochina and on and on.

The CSA lost because the Union had the population and the industry to support a modern war. In the spring of 1864 Union losses were horrific--7,000 during Grant's Overland Campaign were killed and 26,000 wounded. Sherman lost 3500 at New Hope, Dallas and Pickett's Mill and another 2500 a month later at Kennesaw. But Sherman and Grant could replace their losses, Lee and Johnson could not. The Union was hamstrung by poor leadership for much of the war--McClellan, Burnside, Meade, Rosecrans, but that was made up by the manpower and materials. The CSA couldn't produce Spencers or Henry Rifles, the Union could. The union could move troops at will via railroad and steamship. The US Military RR built miles and miles of track and was able to move tons of supplies at all times and thousands of men. The South just couldn't cope with a modern war. If the war had happened in 1841 instead of 1861, the South may have had a chance, but technology, not God doomed the CSA--people like Bragg and Hood didn't help matters either.

I'am tired
I'am tired of a government telling me how to live, of taking my hard earned money and spending it on people and programs that I have no say in. of taxing dang near every thing I buy, sell or make, of taking away freedoms every day under the guise of " its for my own good "
I'am tired of a government of the rich, for the rich, and by the rich.
I'am tired of a corrupt government that takes no responsibility for their actions, who are bought and sold on a daily bases like a common whore..
I'am just plain freakin tired of them..
Better to live free and die by my own mistakes, than to live under an oppressive and ever more tyrantical form of control

Hal
Hal, I have to thank you. Every time is start to get despondent, all I have to do is read one of your posts. I find your posts to be, at the most, humorous. These gems of comic relief you provide raises my spirits daily. It does so, because every day, when I read your posts, it just re-affirms to me that you and those like you continue to bolster the citizens of this country to fight back. every time you write something down on these comments, I feel stronger every day. I want you to remember some very important words spoken by someone else who attempted to wage war against America... "A military man can scarcely pride himself on having 'smitten a sleeping enemy'; it is more a matter of shame, simply, for the one smitten. I would rather you made your appraisal after seeing what the enemy does, since it is certain that, angered and outraged, he will soon launch a determined counterattack."... THAT is the public service you render.

Please keep posting your asinine drivel, simply because I wish the momentum to continue...

I nominate Hal as the official Court Jester. Anyone Second the motion?

Hal.
Actually, I spent several years in the military duty bound to defend the Constitution against enemies both "foreign and domestic". Friends of mine died fulfilling that oath. I take the Constitution and the freedom it guarantees very seriously. I take the hundreds-of-thoudsands who have died protecting it very seriously.

Bankruptcy Changes Everything
Wait until Uncle Sam declares bankruptcy: who holds our national debt? The Chinese are already talking about telling us what to do, since we owe them so much money! (Or didn't you get the memo?)

When the USSR fell apart, it was mostly for lack of funds. I remember thinking at the time: it could happen to us.

It can - and unless we start dealing with our debt, it will.

Who will obey?
Hal -
"Given the nastiness and immorality of the treasonous extreme right wing I suggest that 80% of America would not hesitate to "...lay waste to a disobedient state and its peoples."

And which Officers will obey orders to fire on their countrymen? Will you give that order? If I received that order do you think I would obey? As an Officer I have NO legal obligation to follow an UNCONSTITUTIONAL order. In fact, Army Officers are VERY aware what happens when they give orders that are illegal (perhaps it's our training...)

And PLEASE, for the love of GOD, stop the juvenile LOL, LMAO, etc... What are you, 10?

Jim
"Date: Apr 22, 2009 - 12:04 PM EST
Shallow Hal
F' you, Shallow Hal.
No threat involved.
But if you ever showed up at my door, I might threaten you....Nope. Take that back. You ARE a sissy boy. No need to threaten."

Nope I am not at all but feel free to name call away little fella

The vision of the founders
would be best fulfilled if the states retained their status according to the tenth amendment. (Sorry, states don't have rights; the people do.) If we truly lived according to the constitution the 50 states would be a laboratory of political societies. The people could actually establish their own society which would satisfy their regional appetites as well. I cannot imagine a better way to see what works and what doesn't. As it stands the federal government actually dilutes the power of the people to self govern and find solutions. The problem is readily apparent in the collective---one size fits all types of ANYTHING really do not fit all. Further compounding the problem is the fact that it is easier to sweeten a cup of water than an entire lake. That is why I oppose the collective whether it is the charity, the church, or the federal machine we call government. Insisting that the states retain their unique character in local rule, while maintaining constitutional limits on government power in relation to the citizen, is the best way to further the beauty of this "American experiment". Why drag an entire country into a "solution" that may or may not work when there are plenty of states that can implement their own plans and therefore serve as the warning or the example? It's just COMMON SENSE! In the meantime, I'd give kudos to the first governor and legislature who stands up to the fed and says, "No more. The constitution says you cannot do this and therefore we will not expect, nor force, our citizens to comply." Are there any out there who would?