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Thursday, September 11, 2008
Victor Davis Hanson :: Townhall.com Columnist
What Was Feminism?
by Victor Davis Hanson
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The media went hysterical over Sarah Palin, governor of Alaska and Republican nominee for vice president. She may have appeared to the public as an independent, capable professional woman, but to a particular elite she couldn't possibly be a real feminist or even a serious candidate. And that raises questions about what is -- and what is not -- feminism.

Feminism grew out of the 1960s to address sexual inequality. At an early age, I was mentored on most feminist arguments by my late mother. She graduated from Stanford Law School in the 1940s but then was offered only a single job as a legal secretary. Instead, she went back home to raise three children with my father, a teacher and farmer, and only returned to legal work in her 40s. She was eventually named a California superior court judge and, later, a state appellate court justice.

Hers was a common and compelling feminist argument of the times, and went something like this: Women should receive equal pay for equal work, and not be considered mere appendages of their husbands. Childrearing -- if properly practiced as a joint enterprise -- did not preclude women from pursuing careers. A woman's worth was not to be necessarily judged by having either too many or too few children, given the privacy of such decisions and the co-responsibility of male partners.

In such an ideal gender-blind workplace, women were not to be defined by their husband's or father's success or failure. The beauty of women's liberation was that it was not hierarchical but included the unmarried woman who drove a combine on her own farm, the corporate attorney and the homemaker who chose to home-school her children.

Women in the workplace did not look for special favors. And they surely did not wish to deny innately feminine differences. Instead, they asked only that men should not establish arbitrary rules of the game that favored their male gender.

Soon radical changes in American attitudes about birth control, abortion, dating, marriage and health care became, for some, part and parcel of women's liberation. But in its essence feminism still was about equality of opportunity, and so included women of all political and religious beliefs.

That old definition of feminism is now dead. It has been replaced by a new creed that is far more restrictive -- as the controversy over Sarah Palin attests. Out of the recent media frenzy, four general truths emerged about the new feminism:

First, there is a particular class and professional bent to the practitioners of feminism. Sarah Palin has as many kids as House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, she has as much of a prior political record as the once-heralded Rep. Geraldine Ferraro, who was named to the Democratic ticket by Walter Mondale in 1984 -- and arguably has as much as, or more executive experience than, Barack Obama. Somehow all that got lost in the endless sneering stories about her blue-collar conservatism, small Alaskan town, five children, snowmobiling husband and Idaho college degree.

Second, feminism now often equates to a condescending liberalism. Emancipated women who, like Palin, do not believe in abortion or are devout Christians are at best considered unsophisticated dupes. At worse, they are caricatured as conservative interlopers, piggybacking on the hard work of leftwing women whose progressive ideas alone have allowed the Palins of the world the choices that otherwise they would not now enjoy.

Apparently these feminists believe that without the ideas of Gloria Steinem on abortion, a moose-hunting PTA mom would not have made governor. The Democrat’s vice presidential candidate, Joe Biden, said Palin’s election, given her politics, would be "a backward step for women."

Third, hypocrisy abounds. Many female critics of Palin, in Washington and New York politics and media, found their careers enhanced through the political influence of their powerful fathers, their advantageous marriages to male power players and the inherited advantages of capital. The irony is that a Palin -- like a Barbara Jordan, Golda Meir or Margaret Thatcher -- made her own way without the help of money or influence.

Fourth, most Americans still believe in the old feminism but not this new doctrinaire liberal brand. Consequently, a struggling John McCain suddenly has shot ahead of Obama in the polls. Apparently millions of Americans like Palin's underdog feminist saga and her can-do pluckiness. Many are offended by haughty liberal media elites sneering at someone that, politics aside, they should be praising -- for her substantial achievements, her inspirational personal story and her Obama-like charisma.

This past week we were supposed to learn about a liberated Gov. Sarah Palin. Instead the media taught us more than we ever wanted to know about what they now call feminism.

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About The Author
Victor Davis Hanson is a classicist and historian at the Hoover Institution, Stanford University, and a recipient of the 2007 National Humanities Medal.

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O. J. Simpson trial: The turning point
Tammy Bruce has suggested that the turning point for modern leftist feminism was the O. J. Simpson trial in 1994.

Some feminists, like Tammy Bruce, had tried to denounce Mr. Simpson and the "not guilty" verdict in that trial as an injustice done to the family of Nicole Brown Simpson. But the word went out from the National Organization of Women (NOW) that feminists were not to criticize Mr. Simpson, because NOW's black allies in the Democratic Party wanted such criticisms stopped. Evidently the usual black activists (Sharpton, perhaps) had told NOW to cool it. Which they did.

Since then, NOW has relinquished more and more of its political independence. It now does nothing that might alienate the Democratic Party. NOW has even allowed their own headquarters and staff to be used in political campaigns for Democratic Party candidates, in violation of NOW's charter.

A few feminists, like Tammy Bruce, refused to accept that. That ultimately led to a schism and the creation of alternative feminist organizations like Feminist Majority.


moose hunting
I just wish the moose-hunting didn't have to be part of the picture. This is unnecessary, inexcusably cruel behavior--hunting and killing, terrifying and persecuting, beautiful forest animals as if they're guilty of a crime. I say this as a passionate conservative.

The columnist writes,

"But in its essence feminism still was about equality of opportunity..."

In its essence gay liberation is also about equality of opportunity, marriage equality, freedom from discrimination.

People are people. Black, white, female, asian, the elderly, hispanic, gay (etc etc).


Okay, just wanted to throw that out there. Many on these threads tend to be social conservatives (and, like everybody else, they fought against women's suffrage at the turn of the 20th century, fought against african-american civil rights and interracial marriages at mid-century, and are fighting against gay equality and marriage equality now).


Here's hoping for a more equal, more egalitarian new century. Women, blacks & gays should all have a level playing field as we slowly realize and fulfill the Declaration's words "All men are create equal".


----------

(and please, nobody give me the shopworn argument that gay people DO have marriage equality! "They're free to marry anyone of the opposite sex!"....yuck yuck yuck.... it's a tired, stale, jaded argument; we all deserve to live our lives with dignity regardless of gender, race and sexual orientation)

Highest Priority
The most important article this year on Townhall is Jacob Sullum's. http://townhall.com/columnists/Column2.aspx?UrlTitle=platf orm_at_sea&ns=JacobSullum&dt=09/10/2008&page=full&comments= true&submitted=true&submitted=true

Will...
I want to marry two, maybe even three, maybe even of mixed genders. Are you progressive enough to ok that?
Progress is progress, right?

feminist Christians
The writer wrote, "Emancipated women who, like Palin, do not believe in abortion or are devout Christians are at best considered unsophisticated dupes."

This word Christian is haphazardly thrown about much to much. True Christians live according to "...every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." Matt 4:4.

Feminists and other gender benders, are bent on destroying the family, as defined by God, whether they realize it or not.

If anyone takes issue with this, then rightly divide the Word of Truth, and convince me of my error. I only request that you use the Word of God to do so.

Kind Robert...
"* Robert
Location: AE

Reply # 2
Date: Sep 11, 2008 - 12:37 AM EST moose hunting
I just wish the moose-hunting didn't have to be part of the picture. This is unnecessary, inexcusably cruel behavior--hunting and killing, terrifying and persecuting, beautiful forest animals as if they're guilty of a crime. I say this as a passionate conservative. *"

~~~~

Robert,

Please do not be alarmed. We hunters do not wish to kill wild animals. We are very loving.

We just think it is rude, and not good to eat animals that are still alive.

I am certain that when a pack of wolves pull down a Deer family member and commence to feed on it while it is still alive, feel the same way. Oh! The angst!

Grizzly Bears also target Moose. Especially the babies. Hmm, Hmm! Tasty!

I am certain they wish they could make certain the animal is dead before feeding begins.

Fortunately, Beef, Pork, Mutton, Poultry, and mushrooms are usually euthanized before feeding begins.

I strongly suspect that a quick death from a bullet is preferable to the horror of being eaten alive. If you choose to disagree, that is OK with me. Please note, and write us, how it feels before your last breath.

~~~

Do you not see that the animal being dead before feeding begins, is a GOOD thing?

Unless you are a strict Vegan, you are participating.

Also, if you eat only Organic foods, you are participating, because the animal's body waste is growing your food. Oh! The Shame! Animals cannot say how their waste will be used. It makes good fertilizer, in case you did not know.


OBTW, Squirrels are considered a tasty delight by some.

And, Rats are close cousins of squirrels. Some people have eaten both.


I am, Humbly,
Ratas y Ratones, if you get my drift...

to #8
This is the strangest argument I've heard this year--to behave better than wolves, is to behave well.

By the way, I'm a vegetarian. The charge that this makes me a hypocrite because some of the plants grew from soil that was fertilized by animal waste--second strangest argument I've heard this year. All this to get out of a simple point--it's unnecessarily cruel to go out in the forest and hunt and kill innocent animals.

Was there a "good" late-60's feminism?
I'm 57, grew up in liberal Massachusetts, and honestly, don't EVER recall a "moderate" form of feminism existing in the late 1960's as described in VDH's column. Prior to the late 60's, I saw American society already progressing towards equal opportunity for women in education and careers as a result of economic prosperity, common sense, enlightened self-interest, and a sense of fairness -- much more so than out of any leftists ideology.

Then came the late 60's. My first exposure to late 60's "feminism" occurred in 1969 during an all-night BS session in a friend's freshman dorm room in Harvard Yard, when a formerly-normal female high school classmate lectured us men on female "oppression," and the evils of the patriarchy and heterosexual sex, all the while proudly wearing her huge "I Am A Castrating Female" button. According to her, all laws restricting abortion even in the slightest, and all women's fashions, were nothing but evil male schemes to enslave women. Like everyone else we knew at the time, we all strongly favored equal opportunity for women, but I recall thinking that my former classmate's vision of "feminism" was socially, morally and politically poisonous. And unfortunately, hardly anthing I've seen since then has softened that view. It seems feminism's main purposes since then have been to dramatically lower men's social and legal status, elect Democrats, grant women unrestricted license to abort, elect Democrats, encourage women to be as big a jerk as any man, and elect Democrats.

Anyway, if I missed the 5 minutes when late 1960's "feminism" passed through a non-leftist, non-male-bashing and non-radical stage, please feel free to enlighten me. I never saw it.

Feminism
Every time I encounter one of these far left-wing so-called feminists, I recall an incident from the early days of the feminist movement.

I was watching TV news with several members of my extended family and a feminist activist was speaking with passion about women should be acknowledged as being equal to men. At which point one of my aunts (a housewife) commented: "I ain't going to take a demotion to become equal to men!" Now, that's a proper feminist attitude.

Robert wrote:
'All this to get out of a simple point--it's unnecessarily cruel to go out in the forest and hunt and kill innocent animals.'

Well...it's really difficult to identify the guilty ones.

Have a carrot and gloat.

To all who still think
that any woman who steps out of the house except with her husbands permission, has any money not doled out by him for specific purposes, and whose life does not revolve around serving his every whim -- is not only not entitled to call herself Christian, but is probably a witch -- get off your bridge to nowhere and move along.

What you guys -- conservative men and man-haters alike -- hate about us is that we do it all without your help or your permission, and we do it well.

When I was a girl I was frequently admonished to hide my intelligence and never correct a boy because their frail self-esteem could not handle the knowledge that a girl knew something they did not know. We were to coo and ooh over even the most ridiculous utterances, and if they sold the house and bought a correspondence course in how to be a mime, we were to submissively move into a tent in the park and stand worshipfully by with the tin cup to collect the pennies from the crowd.

Apparently some of you guys really miss the good old days.

Time you realize that ship has sailed. We bought these shoes and they remain on our feet. Now if you will get out of our chair, we will start this meeting.

JPL17
I agree 100%, I don’t remember too much of any of these non-leftist feminists in the 60s. Of course a lot of that was media hype, just like the prevalence of dope smoking hippy drop-outs. I tries to make this pointy yesterday, that most of the real feminist heavy lifting was done in the early 1900s and all the 60s did was advance the leftists. They may have accomplished a few things, but I think they were VERY few things.

And this column has some things in it that are dreadfully wrong. The radical feminists said they wanted equal pay for equal work, but just like the Jessie’s of the world that is not what they really want. They want equal pay for ALL work. They gin up some statistic that says women make 75% of what men make and say “we need a law”. Hahahahaha, even in that they are lying because there already is a law. What they do NOT take into account in their “studies” is that the comparisons they make are comparing apples to lug nuts. An hourly woman worker takes off 100 hrs a year for home issues and consequently makes less money, or heaven forbid, does not get a promotion because she is gone all the time and it is Prima Facie evidence of discrimination.

Look at the other laws that they have got passed. They can take off months out of the year for pregnancy and be guaranteed a job when they get back, even if layoffs have occurred while they were gone. Then there is the travesty of college and HS sports. I don’t even want to go there because it would take an entire column to describe that. Sarah Palin didn’t become a HS basketball hero because of that law. They had girls basketball in my HS in the 60s (and before).

Sarah Palin is great and she has done miracles in Alaska, but I don’t credit today’s femminists with ANY of her success. And lord look how they are attacking her.

JPL17
Well, I'm 57, too, and I was fortunate enough to have seen a moderate form of feminism, the sort inspired by Betty Friedan and before women like Kate Millett transmogrified it.

The moderate form seemed quite radical at the time, though.

will
What you say is perfectly reasonable. It's what you don't say that is unreasonable, and what you don't say is that you are unwilling for your principles to be applied in a lot of other areas.

For example, I think school sports should provide equal opportunities for everyone, no matter what size or shape they are. BUT, our schools continue to dote on the big and tall. And I never hear a word of complaint about this from people like you, will.

And I think that academics like me who come from modest circumstances and who went to ordinary universities in the Midwest should be treated as equal to those who come from wealthy backgrounds and went to the Ivies, or to be more specific, we should all be judged on the quality of our ideas. But that isn't the way academia works. Those who are wealthy and went to the best schools get to control things. And I never hear a word of complaint from people like you, will.

Your own party, the Democrats, cannot manage to treat candidates who didn't go to Harvard or Yale as the equal of those who did. It's been 24 years since they last nominated someone who didn't go to those schools.

You want a more equal century. Well, so do I. I just mean a lot more by that than you do. And until you support my causes, I won't support yours.

Nail on the Head
Thank you Mr. Hanson for writing this article!! Having grown up in the 70's and hit the workforce in the 80's this is excactly what feminism was about for me. Watching the female journalists and NOW representatives disparage Governor Palin, makes me think they must be younger than 40 and have a lack of knowledge of why feminism began. Thank you for setting the record straight. I forwarded this article to many of my friends who are younger than 40.

Sincerely,
az mom


Never Forget 9/11/2001

"I will stand with the Muslims should the political winds shift in an ugly direction."
Barack Obama from 'Audacity of Hope'

I’LL BE VOTING FOR BRAINS NOT BEAUTY
I’m a 60 year old moderatly educated republican grandmother.

I am not intellegent enough to be the leader of the United States Of America.

I’m sorry I’ll be voting for the well educated smart black man.

SteveL:
What about the borking of Clarence Thomas?

feminist Christians
Can any of you that support "feminist Christians" defend your position in the Word of God, as I invited you to in post #7?

to #12
Yes, it's all very funny. Not so funny, though, to the animal with its blood gushing out.

"If it makes me feel good to kill something, kill it!" The true conservative spirit, right? Compassion is for lefty hippies.

Or--"Anything people have been doing for a long time must be good, so let's keep doing it"--is that it?

"Modern Feminism" has been infiltrated
I suspect, by a bunch of overamorous young men.

With the glorification of Margaret Sanger's life's work, women have been removed from their pedestal. Now, they are truly equal to men.

Conveniently, because of plumbing, women carry the additional benefit of being a great sport.

And since abortion on demand through the third trimester is now a Constitutional "right"...There is no consequence to a casual fling.

Ergo, there is no reason to view sex as anything but a simple exercise in stress relief.

Secure in this knowledge, why ever would we need to view women as special in any way?

Sure, we'll pay you the same as your male counterparts, but don't come whining to us when you decide you want special treatment just to take care of a child.

You CHOSE to have a child, so we'll be giving your job to someone who puts the firm first.

After all, that's what we'd tell a man. And you're equal now.

@Robert
"Compassion is for lefty hippies."

Apparently not when it comes to babies.

Robert
Robert you are not being nice to just let animals over breed. I have seen first hand this stupitity. What is cruel is when they die of starvation, and sickness. In my state the deer population is 2 times is historical norm. I wish more people would hunt.

feminists who were pro-life joined
weal = women's equity action league if they
chose an organization.

One of the first founders of now was a nun, or
was there 2 nuns? When it became pro-choice
they moved over to WEAL.

This is a poorly thought out article.

"Feminism"...
...as defined by "feminists" since the 60s is not about women. It's about an agenda; it's about "getting even".

I turned my back on them many years ago. Their behavior towards Palin simply reinforces what I came to believe about them.

JPL17
"Anyway, if I missed the 5 minutes when late 1960's "feminism" passed through a non-leftist, non-male-bashing and non-radical stage, please feel free to enlighten me. I never saw it."

You said "I saw American society already progressing towards equal opportunity for women in education and careers as a result of economic prosperity, common sense, enlightened self-interest, and a sense of fairness."
Those were the early feminist... women quietly seeking an advanced education and applying for the jobs typically help by men. It was there, they just were not screaming "I am woman, hear me roar."

Kwaayesnama
I’m calling your bluff. You cannot be who you say you are, and then categorically state, with a straight face, that Barack Obama is a man of superior intelligence. In heaven’s name, what evidence do you offer to support such an outlandish notion?

Further, your disparaging of Sarah based on her incredible good looks lends ever more credence to Rush’s Undeniable Truth of Life #24. If you’re not familiar with it, look it up.

To Ms. Kwaayesnama...
I am a single 30-year old mom still seeking my education.

I may not be "smart" enought to run this country, but I am smart enough to see that your "well educated smart black man" does not think that I am smart enough to spend my own money, educate my own child, or value my own freedom.

I will be voting for the decorated war hero and the pitbull.

you have GOT to be kidding
Hansen said "[sarah] arguably has as much as, or more executive experience than, Barack Obama".

WHAT???

obama has no---repeat, no---executive experience WHATSOEVER. NOTHING.

Sarah has been a mayor. She is now a governor. That IS executive experience. Indeed, it is the very definition of executive experience.

Hansen is obviously steeped in political correctness. Otherwise he would not have made such a blatantly false statement.

The Ugly Truth about Feminism's Past-1
FROM: http://mensnewsdaily.com/2005/11/19/margaret-sanger-more-f eminist-hate/

The book “Women of the Klan – Racism and Gender in the 1920’s”
by Kathleen M. Blee (University of California Press, 1992ISBN 0-520-07876-4 (ppb.)) documents extensively the direct lineage between Modern Feminism and the Women’s Ku Klux Klan (WKKK).

It is frequently stated, and therefore commonly believed, that Elizabeth Cady Stanton and the Suffragettes were the source of the women’s rights movement. “Women of the Klan” proves this to be untrue. Many of the Suffragettes, were also deeply involved in the WKKK until well after passage of the 19th amendment.

Hawkeye58-Vic-Ratas-RGeek
There is a place in this world for animals, right beside the vegetables and potatoes.

BTW, WHAT IS FEMININE about The Fat, Pimply, Homely, Hairy Legged, Harridans of NOW?

Feminism's Ugly Past-Part I
The book “Women of the Klan – Racism and Gender in the 1920’s” by Kathleen M. Blee (University of California Press, 1992ISBN 0-520-07876-4 (ppb.)) documents extensively the direct lineage between Modern Feminism and the Women’s Ku Klux Klan (WKKK).

It is frequently stated, and therefore commonly believed, that Elizabeth Cady Stanton and the Suffragettes were the source of the women’s rights movement. “Women of the Klan” proves this to be untrue. Many of the Suffragettes, were also deeply involved in the WKKK until well after passage of the 19th amendment.

The WKKK became a very powerful controlling force both in the KKK as well as society itself. Women used various “informal networks” through churches, schools, neighborhoods, and various social groups. They formed “poison squads”, which were used to spread rumors, create sexual fears about black men, initiate “selective shopping” boycotts, and pass political information around.

Feminism's Ugly Past-Part II
Lynchings of Black men were common in the Old South. Most of these were instigated in defense of “white womanhood”. The author writes that the WKKK “dissolved a myriad of social, economic, and racial issues into powerful symbols of womanhood and sexual virtue”. Lulu Markwell, a President of the WKKK wrote, “It is the duty of the American mother to stamp out vice and immorality.” This overblown sexual imagery galvanized millions of American men to rise to the mindless protection of the purity of Protestant white woman. A Black man simply needed to be accused of rape, or of somehow spoiling white womanhoods sexual virtue and he would be hung. White men commited acts of evil in the name of evil White women.

The KKK came to believe that womanhood represented “all that is best, and noblest, and highest in life”, wherein “No race, or society, or country can rise higher than its womanhood”. Sounds alot like today’s (and yesterday’s) feminists.

The famous 1960’s feminist mantra, “No will man say that in the hand of woman rests the necessity of rocking a cradle only. She has within her hand the power to rule the world”, was actually published by the WKKK in Evansville, Indiana in the late 1880’s.

America is living in a sickening point in history. America is suffocating in sexist policies which openly and unconstitutionally discriminate against a father’s fundamental right to be in the family, to be a property owner, and to raise his children. For all men and for all fathers (White & Black) these are dark days reminiscent of Jim Crow.

The Ugly Truth about Feminism-Part III
Margaret Sanger (1883-1966) is the Founder of Planned Parenthood. An interesting overview of this gems political idealogy can be found here:

Margaret on immigrants, blacks, and the poor:

“immigrants and indigents:”…human weeds,’ ‘reckless breeders,’ ’spawning… human beings who never should have been born.” Margaret Sanger, Pivot of Civilization.

Margaret on the extermination of blacks:

“We do not want word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population,” she said, “if it ever occurs to any of their more rebellious members.” Woman’s Body, Woman’s Right: A Social History of Birth Control in America, by Linda Gordon.

http://mensnewsdaily.com/2005/11/19/margaret-sanger-more-fe minist-hate/


the kkk
define many.

That the women's movement took more inspiration
from the KKK than the leading suffragists is
untrue.

Susan B. Anthony was President in the 20th C.
As far as I know Alice Paul, Lucy Burns, Carrie
Catt, Anna Howard Shaw had no sympathy for the
KKK. That is definitely not to say that they
did not work with Southern or Midwestern women
who were in the KKK. But that the KKK was a
major force would be wrong - that they
influenced decisions on the inclusion of black
women would not be.

Robert
Food prices in Alaka are 25 percent higher than in Indiana, but our wages are not higher in proportion. For many of us, moose hunting is what puts meat on the table. Done right, it is far less cruel than a steer being raised in a feed lot. I've never taken a moose -- just never have gotten one in my sights in the right place at the right season -- but I've taken caribou. They didn't suffer. They went down and they bled out before I could hike to them (which, given that I'm competing with bears and wolves, I hike FAST). One my husband took he ran up on and shot in the head as soon as he realized it was still living. We're not cruel, but we're more interested in not tainting the meat with fear and pain hormones which can ruin a winter's meat supply. It's simply that God put these creatures on the planet to sustain us and for many of us Alaskans it's the difference between eating meat and being forced vegetarians -- or more like forced starch eaters, since vegetables are expensive here too. Also, you should know that moose and caribou, almost all game meat, is much healthier for you than domesticated meat. No artificial hormones, no antibiotics, much fewer parasites, and very low in saturated fats.

Robert
I'm glad you have the ability to choose to be a vegetarian.
Why don't you let the rest of us choose to eat meat? If mankind had not started consuming meat, our brains would not have become devices for logic and problem solving. We would have spent all day munching as cows do. You should be thanking the meat eaters for developing crops that allow you to stay alive without consuming meat.
Instead of being self righteous and crying for the poor innocent food, use some of that compassion for unborn babies.

Let Actual Readers Decide
The book “Women of the Klan – Racism and Gender in the 1920’s” by Kathleen M. Blee (University of California Press, 1992ISBN 0-520-07876-4 (ppb.)) documents extensively the direct lineage between Modern Feminism and the Women’s Ku Klux Klan (WKKK).

The book is extensively researched and has a great many references.

It is indisputable that the WKKK and the Suffragettes were actively aligned.

Modern Feminism came from the WKKK.

Everyone should read this book.

Robert ~ The Angry Vegan

Hi. I'm Robirt. I'm at the Greengrocer, and I'm shopping for veggies.


"Mr. Shopkeeper, was that cabbage grown with animal based fertilizer?"

Shopkeeper: "Yes, because it is the best kind of fertilizer."

Robirt: "Well then, I won't buy it, because animals are a higher life form. I know, because I watched Bambi last year when I was a kid. Those evil hunters make me so angry."

Shopkeeper: "Chill out youngin'. Deer are overpopulating and deer-automobile collisions cause hundreds of millions of dollars cost of accidents every year. Moose auto wrecks often end in the death of humans. Are you cool with that?"

Robirt: "That doesn't matter !"

Robirt: "Do you have anything that was not grown with animal fertilizer?"

Shopkeeper: "Well, yes. We have all these things over here that were grown in Mexico. They only use human fertilizer. And it is applied topically."

Robirt: "That is great. I will take some of each."

Robirt: "I wonder what 'applied topically' means."

(Note to Robirt : 'applied topically' means they poop on your food in the field.)



And, again...

OBTW, Squirrels are considered a tasty delight by some.

And, Rats are close cousins of squirrels. Some people have eaten both.


I am, Humbly,
Ratas y Ratones, if you get my drift...



Jack
Sarah is not a Roman Catholic. She was raised in an Assemblies of God church and now attends a non-denominational (more appropriately called a transdenominational, since they borrow from several traditions) evangelical church. You've find there are substantial differences between the beliefs and practices of Roman Catholics and Evangelicals. There is common ground, but one cannot be mistaken for the other.

Feminism Old Style
My Mom grew up in the 1930s when a western farm family survived by everyone doing more than their share. My mother was a petite woman, but she plowed fields, herded cattle, broke mustangs and built barns. During WW2, she was Rosie the Riveter. Then the 1950s came along and she was told to go to the kitchen and bake cookies. She was a diner waitress for most of her working life, getting paid half what the cooks got paid. When she met my dad, a union organizer, she complained about this and he explained that a woman couldn't lift as much as a man, so it made sense they couldn't be cooks. Mom proved to him that a 50# pound bag of potatoes was a challenge to a 100# woman, but not an obstacle. She was middle-aged by then and not wanting to be a cook, but Dad dispatched other women who could pass the potato test to work as full-pay cooks on the TransAlaska Pipeline. He took heat for that, but now, nobody questions it when a woman works as a cook on a construction crew ... or as a welder, electrician, etc. If a woman can do the job, the men don't resent her for it (according to my husband, a union electrician).

That's what Mom wanted. To be paid the same amount for the same work and not be passed over just because she was a woman. She also wanted to have children and a home. She always worked! It would have been nice if she could have gotten paid what she was worth, which was the same thing as the male cooks, but she didn't get that option. The feminism of the 1960s promised that. I certainly think Mom would be ashamed of the radical feminists of today. My husband told some female electrician/fem nazi this summer that "you may be my competitor in the workforce, but the only one making us enemies right now is you."

Chiefest of Sinners
I'm not sure of your exact definition of "feminist Christian." If you mean a woman who has a family and also works outside the home and expects to get paid equitably and treated fairly according to the way she performs her employment duties -- yeah. Proverbs 31, the virtuous wife.

Robert
My apologies. I didn't realize you were a vegetarian. However, you should realize that is a choice you have made. Others of us do not make that choice and, if you have kids and you're forcing them to live your vegetarian lifestyle, my cousin the doctor has some interesting studies showing the potential long-range consequences of that decision, based upon studies in the 7th Day Adventist communities of the Pacific Northwest. I want my children to grow up strong, tall, with solid bones and healthy organs. That requires meat-based proteins. That's my choice. I don't begrudge you yours; don't begrudge others theirs.

GREAT COUNTRY WE HAVE HERE
Ain't it great that we have a country that allows the open and the back and forth dialog we are all sharing now. I'm 68 and this is the most passionate and openly discussed election I have ever seen. ALL issues are up for discussion, even Moose Hunting. After the fall of the Berlin wall I worked in Eastern Europe and gave a speech on Freedom of the Press, which was favorably received by a country of people who had been denied Freedom of the Press and Freedom of Speech for almost 25 years. However, a bias media and a libeous press can be a dangerous threat to these freedoms. Do you realize how many people still believe everything they hear on TV and read in a newspaper? We certaintly don't need censorhip, just accountability, for example, the way Dan Rather at CBS learned it a few years ago.

Denis
I haven't read the book, but I'm aware of it. That some feminists were part of the KKK just shows that leftists in the past were much more reactionary than leftists today think. Along the same lines, labor unions once excluded blacks, the abolitionists wanted legal but not social equality for blacks, the commies made a pact with the Nazis, etc.

Robert
Okay, I'll abet your highjacking this thread.

You have an extremely naive attitude toward hunting, even for a vegetarian. First, you seem to think that Alaskans go, "Oh, there's a moose. Let's go kill it!" I have cousins up there who are native born. They hunt moose and caribou for food. One of either will feed a family of 5 for a winter. To Alaskans, that is a benefit of living there. There are strict regulations governing this harvest, as there are in every state. Better for animals to be shot than torn apart by a wolfpack, but of course they have no conception of options, or death for that matter.

I spent years in the mountains of Colorado. In one winter along a short stretch of railroad tracks, locomotives killed 900 muledeer. They starve by the thousands. I saw one hanging from a fence by a single barbed wire that had punctured its belly skin. It had tried to jump the fence in 2 feet of snow and just missed. How long it hung there, uninjured but doomed, I have no idea. I can't forget that way to die.

Here on the ranch where I live we have whitetail deer, mouflon sheep and blackbuck antelope, the latter two being exotic imports. We have far too many of them and hundreds die on the roads, yet when conditions get tough through drouth or weather extremes I feed them deer pellets and kitchen scraps. I know I'm not doing the species any good but I can't help myself. I just wish Texas would raise the limits so that more would die by hunters hands than by automobile, starvation and sickness.

Kwaayesnama
smart black men know there are only 50 states

Robert, Pal


Dear Robert,

Please do not think that everyone who is conservative, believes the same things I do.

It is impossible to put anyone into a niche and say this is what they are.

I have read your posts over the past, and I believe you are a kind decent person.

I must confess that I did enjoy my spoofs on your beliefs about animals.

Please feel free to spoof me about my beliefs that animals were provided by God, for food for humans.



The Spoofing Rat

AKA Ratas y Ratones


Kwaayesnama
From the African flavor of your username, I suspect you would vote for the black man be he smart or stupid, experienced or unqualified, Democrat or Republican. You would vote for him because of his race alone. What's that make you?

JFP
those would all be useful points if
conservatives had not been worse. You make an
excellent pointif historical context is left
out, but with itthe opposite is true that
abolitionists were more correct (current if
you will) on race than those out of it or opposed to it, labor unions were more correct
on work conditions than those opposed to them.

The Soviet Union's foreign policy is beside the
point.

RE: AudiR10
Excuse me Madam, but I must take exception to your assumption that Conservative men have been against women getting equal treatment in the workplace.
I am a Conservative man in a heavily Liberal Democrat area and I have been fighting for 35 years for the rights of the women I have known to be treated fairly and equally. In high school, in the mid 70s, I had a good friend who wanted to try out for the Varsity Football team. I knew that she didn't stand a snowball's chance in Key West to make the team, but I argued passionately before the school board (Democrats all) that she had every bit as much right to try out for the team as I did - I played Tackle and Defensive End on the team. We weren't successful because every single one of those stinking Libs voted against her.
I married a woman who had a 7 year old daughter who decided she wanted to play baseball and then football. I supported her desire to try these sports - it took the threat of legal action, but they let her try. She played one season of Football before deciding it wasn't for her. She pitched in a boy's league and made the All-star teams for 9 years.
I have always believed that ANYBODY can do anything if they believe in themselves enough. And that is what I have taught my daughters.

the klan book
is available for limited preview at google books.
The introduction does not seem to make much of
the WKKK's involvement in the suffrage movement.

Nancy Cott's book on feminism is usually seen
to be the book to read on early feminism and I
don't remember her writing much (or any) about
the connection, though I do know that she writes
how the National organizations had to be careful
with Southern and Midwestern woman's groups.

My Dear Pals


You would never guess, having seen me offer so much good counsel in Toon Hall; that during my formative years I was a bullfight aficionado, as well as a great enthusiast of co ckfighting in the southwest. In the 60's I subscribed to Gamec ock, and also Grit and Steel; popular coc-kfighter magazines. Today everywhere you look, these sports are condemned by our compassionate citizens.

I still love them both. (Hate the dog fights, to me a dog is human.)

They're so damned beautiful, you see. Brave bulls & game c ocks. I suspect Mark Twain, Hemingway & Steinbeck would see it my way.

The world we live in is being steadily feminized. What women haven't achieved in the legal arena they've accomplished --frankly I can't tell how. But what a shame! Fighting game chickens is blameworthy and indecent. Porn all over our country is freedom of expression. Next we'll see moose hunting outlawed? My old Mother-in-law says it all succinctly:

Sjhit rises to the top these days. Used to be cream.

Bravo, Hawkeye58 !


There is a man for you!

Sarah Palin's Sin
Dr. Hanson's column addresses the question of what Sarah Palin did to offend liberal feminist sensibilities. She completed a college education and rose to the highest post in her state. She has both family and career. She has a partnership style relationship with her husband, sharing household and child care responsibilities. Her husband is now a stay-at-home dad. She has participated in a variety of activities, some traditionally female (beauty pageants) and several traditionally male (hunting, fishing, sports). Clearly, she has walked the feminist walk, doing what she wants without being hindered by gender.

What, then, is her failing? She is a devout Christian with conservative beliefs and values.

I don't think Sarah Palin has to address the issue of whether or not she is a feminist. On the other hand, it seems incumbent on liberal feminists to address the apparent incompatibility of their beliefs with Christianity.

fMichael-devout Christian?
I say again, feminists cannot be devout "Christians". "Devout Christians" follow the teachings of Christ, the Word of God that was "...made flesh, and dwelt among us." John 1:14.

That's the problem with religion and the "Church" of today. No salvation. Everyone eager to associate themselves with Christ, and few willing to live according to the Word, to whom Christ will say in the judgement: "...then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." Matthew 7:23


If more lived by the Word, "true conservatism" would prevail. Families would be strong, men would live up to thier responsiblities, and this nation as a whole, would "rejoice".

dreadnaught
Thank you. I presume you refer to the wildlife subject and not the goofy AZ 60 old Republican grandma liar. BTW grannie, why won't Osamba release his grade records from Columbia? Because he didn't do very well!! He appears to have gotten into Harvard Law School as an affirmative action beneficiary. He has never, ever, said or done anything that would lead one to believe he is smart. (Refer the movie 'Being There' starring Peter Sellers) Rent it and as you watch it,imagine Barrack Obama is Chance.

Todd Palin is NOT a stay-at-home dad!
My friend Pat shares a room with him at BP, so I have some inside info. Todd took a leave a absence during the oil company negotiations for the gas pipeline because they wanted to avoid any hint of conflict of interest. Todd returned to the Slope soon negotiations ended. He's 1 week on, 1 week off at BP, so is probably a fairly stay-at-home dad on his off-week. It is my understanding that Sarah was commuting (driving herself, folks!) from Wasilla to Anchorage daily, taking Trig with her to the office.

What the situation is now with her being the VP candidate, I don't know. He's probably taken another leave of absence. That would seem prudent!

Today is Remembrance Day
Never Forget!

Who Would You Trust With Nat'l Security?
Commander in Chief Already
Subject: Governor Palin, Commander in Chief
Who Would You Trust With National Security? Obama, Marxist Community Agitator or Governor Sarah Palin, Commander in Chief Already?

Subject: Sarah Palin's Experience and Quals.....
SARAH PALIN'S SECURITY CLEARANCE

Before you dismiss the fact that Sarah Palin is Commander of the
Alaska National Guard, consider this:

Alaska is the first line of defense in our missile interceptor
defense system. The 49th Missile Defense Battalion of the Alaska
National Guard is the unit that protects the entire nation from
ballistic missile attacks. It's on permanent active duty, unlike
other Guard units.

As governor of Alaska , Palin is briefed on highly classified
military issues, homeland security, and counterterrorism. Her
exposure to classified material may rival even Biden's and
certainly by far exceeds Obama's.

She's also the commander in chief of the Alaska State Defense
Force (ASDF), a federally recognized militia incorporated into
Homeland Security's counterterrorism plans.

Palin is privy to military and intelligence secrets that are vital to
the entire country's defense. Given Alaska 's proximity to Russia ,
she may have security clearances we don't even know about.
According to the Washington Post, she first met with McCain in
February, but nobody ever found out. This is a woman used to
keeping secrets.

She can be entrusted with our national security, because she
already is. . . . her experience in keeping the homeland safe fits perfectly with her image as the competent American woman.

And she Believes in the 2nd Amendment, and knows how to use a gun. What a change from the metro sexuals who run DC and our Government.

Compare her Experience and Resume with the Messiah Obama's???

Governor Palin, Commander in Chief Already, wins hands down.


To Hawkeye58 Friday


I should reserve judgment, since I'm a 50's high school dropout. Over these decades I self-educated intensively without the indoctrinations of those professors Alan Bloom denounced (The Closing of the American Mind).

Seeing Obama fence with Bill O'Reilly was revealing to me. Obama's an able communicator who is only lacking something worthwhile to communicate. I think he has the intelligence to be a world leader. The same kind Lenin had.

Obama is dangerous for the western world, not only America.

I blame Hillary Clinton. She's so radioactive around people it enabled Obama to ascend unexplainably. (Nothing about him has potential.)

How else but competing against HRC could he have run so successfully? I only pray McCain can stop him.


Sarah Palin's Sin revisited
aurorawatcher, thanks for the correction. I believe my basic thesis survives the amendment.

Chiefest of Sinners, I don't want to get into a lengthy theological debate, but I will say this. There are two dimensions to faith: 1) what you believe and 2) how strongly you believe it. Two Christians may have strong faith but disagree about specific religious tenets. Hence, we have Catholics, Episcopalians, Baptists, etc. In describing Governor Palin as devout, I was referring to the apparent strength of her beliefs, and it seems clear she isn't just a Sunday morning Christian.

fMichael
There is no need for a lengthy theological debate. It's really very simple. A personal relationship with Jesus Christ is all it takes.

You can refer to the things that divide professing Christians as "religious tenets" and "dimensions of faith", but the Apostle Paul said it this way in 1Cor ch 3:

3For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
4For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

See, there are Baptist, Catholics, Episcopalians, etc., and none are doing the will of God. The will of God, as outlined in John ch 17:

20Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

God's will is that we all be ONE. When someone separates himself, he is NOT DOING God's will.
We must as Christians, abide in the Truth. Who is the truth? Jesus Christ, the Word that was made flesh. The Way, the Truth, and the Life. THAT’S the truth. Read John 8:
31Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed

THE TRUE DEVOUT CHRISTIANS follow the Word of God.



Better than Limbaugh for sure
but not yet quite right. What is really
troubling is that Limbaugh's view (at least until a couple of weeks ago) was simply that feminists = feminazis. There were no other types and they were all left wing man haters, communists, baby killers etc. etc. That type also shows up all over the place on Town Hall. It is amazing to me how main stream viciousness is within the right wing. It shows up everywhere, of course, but it is really strong in the right wing because of talk radio or maybe talk radio is so popular because of this huge streak of viciousness.

My own personal opinion on this as to the reason why it seems to flourish in the right wing is because the religious ones are pretty much stuck in the Old Testament with its law and God of vengeance (Obey me or else) and while always giving praise to Jesus, they don't much attempt to be the gentle, forgiving, caring Jesus that I know, that Jesus who not only tells us how to live but showed us how to live.

The other strong element in the right wing is
those who believe absolutely that I am NOT my
brother's keeper. Some of them will bother
to come up with the term tough love but most
don't even bother with that.



Better than Limbaugh, II
First of all, I wish you would put several paragraphs of your column into a huge envelope, send it to Limbaugh and beg him to read it on the air and endorse it.

Where we begin to part ways is with the suggestion that only now we are breaking into
camps, the feminists vs. the liberal feminists.

Feminists have always known what we are about.
We have always known that the elements have
ranged from radical to barely there. We have
also realized from the beginning that the
outsiders were always going to see the worst in
us because they don't believe in "rights" for
women. Women are supposed to be wives and
mothers and subject to their husbands. That
is nature's law, that is God's law.

My three sisters were taught that (mom never
could see that Eve will be subjected to her
husband does not mean the same thing as MUST
be subjected.) My own two daughters and one
son got a very different message from my wife
and I. However, the first commandment was
be there for your kids - always. And they
are doing just that. In our home and in their
homes at least one parent was/is "mom" every day the kids are not in school or in some organized activity.

So, now you know what I think about Palin
offering herself for this job. I do recognized
that many people do not have the "luxury" of
living by my rules. But Palin does not need
the money

Greyhawk
Sarah is an energetic, attractive woman who
thrives on politics. No problem with that.
But don't make her to be some Amazon warrior
until there is something to suggest it other
than living in Alaska and "leading" the National
Guard. I wonder how many times she actually
met and spoke with a guardsman. I wonder how
many times she stood at the border of Russia
with fist raised, giving them whatfor.

Please give it a rest. Go pick on Obama.
But of course, if Palin can't be made into
Super Woman, Super Hero, McCAin won't win.

Feminism is Liberalism
If Hanson was a genuine conservative, he would not heap so much praise on feminism. If he knew the history of conservatism, he would understand what's wrong with this column.

Feminism is a movement on the political Left, and always has been so. The demand for equal opportunity has nothing whatever to do with historic conservatism. In fact, such eminent conservatives as Russell Kirk, Richard Weaver, the Southern Agrarians, and many others made clear that the drive for equality, by women, on behalf of blue collar workers, or on behalf of blacks, was a threat to Western (and American) civilization.

Conservatives were the opposition, the enemy, for feminists. The fight for votes for women as a battle of liberals against conservatives. The fight for women to have the same legal rights as men, including the right to own property, was opposed by conservatives. Conservative economists "proved" (to the satisfaction of conservatives) that women did not deserve equal pay because they had weaker commitments to their jobs due to family responsibilities. (If you doubt this, read about Nobel laureate Gary Becker's views.) Religious conservatives regarded every "advance" in women's rights as an offense against God.

So, Mr. Hanson, your praise of feminism rings hollow. If you believe what you wrote, you are no conservative.

Steven, IL


Typical smarmy "dude" response from an IL enabler of slick politics:

" . . . No problem with that.
But don't make her to be some Amazon warrior until
there is something to suggest it other than living in Alaska and "leading" the National Guard."

Why scare quotes on LEADING?

Is she or is she not their governor; does the Guard respond to her commands? You trivialize our nation's Guardsmen.

"I wonder how many times she actually
met and spoke with a guardsman?" Again TYPICAL of an Illinois rat fink. How many times have you spoken to an honest man, where Obama hangs?

"I wonder how
many times she stood at the border of Russia
with fist raised, giving them whatfor."

Your contempt is well-noted. How many times has your candidate for President ever been to Alaska? Is he EVER going to mean anything but appeasement to Russia?

Little sour grapes. I know the only women you know are your ghetto types with round heels. A great woman has never been within a thousand miles of your burg.

Steven
You illustrate your lack of knowledge of the Bible and of Christ, when you describe the "religious types" that are "stuck in the Old Testament with the God of Vengeance".

There are plenty of references to the woman's role in the family and the "God of vengeance" in the NEW Testament:
Titus 2:3-5
1Peter 3:1-7
1 Cor 11:3
1 Cor 11:8-9
1 Tim 2:12-14

Romans 3:5
Romans 12:9
2 Thess 1:8
Heb 10:30
Jude 7
the book of Revelations

And forget not the words of Jesus, who showed us how to live by doing the will of the Father,"...Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." Matt 4:4; and in Timothy ch 2:

15Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

I say again, according to the Word, feminists CANNOT be Christians. Their fruit betrays them. They follow not the Word of God, in their pursuit of equal opportunity/status with the man. Look around you, is our world better since the feminism has taken hold(esp the one parent family, or two parents working families) ?

But I suspect it is as it is stated in the OLD TESTAMENT:

The way of the wicked is as darkness: they know not at what they stumble. Proverbs 4:19

Gestell
AMEN.

Gestell
Ohmygod, are you ever creepy. You never said
exactly that YOU are a conservative on this
post, but I have read you elsewhere.

Please spread your "gospel" of conservativsm
just as fast as you can. Then the Republicans
won't stand a chance of winning.

This is a quote from my post earlier this
morning: "mom never could see that Eve WILL be subjected to her husband does not mean the same thing as MUST be subjected."

I loved her dearly but her dogma drove me out
of the house as fast as I could make that happen. I am now happily part of a Jesus
centered religion and it is a much more
satisfying and loving experience for me. I can
at feel joy with this brand of Christianity.

I don't think that it is co-incidence
at least here in America (and in Israel also)
that Jews are far more likely to see themselves
as a race rather than participants in a religion. They were sort of stuck with the
Old Testament God (I am the Law) without the mitigating "people-person" Jesus of the New Testament.


Chief
What I said to Gestell goes for you too.

Do not make the mistake that because I do not
interpret the Bible the way you do does not mean that I don't know what it says or that I have not studied it. I have studied all my life. It has many contradictions. When I need to decide which text or interpretation of a text "wins" it is pretty much decided by what I think Christ himself was like, how he dealt
with people and issues, and probably just as
importantly - who I would want to spend an
eternity with.

A God who has created everyone and then picks
sides (pro-Jews, anti-everyone else and men
are superior to women) is not an entity I
wish to spend an eternity with. I guess that
is the long and the short of it with me.

If you wish to tell me that I won't be spending
an eternity with your God, go right ahead.
Shiver me timbers.


Chief
What I said to Gestell goes for you too.

Do not make the mistake that because I do not
interpret the Bible the way you do does not mean that I don't know what it says or that I have not studied it. I have studied all my life. It has many contradictions. When I need to decide which text or interpretation of a text "wins" it is pretty much decided by what I think Christ himself was like, how he dealt
with people and issues, and probably just as
importantly - who I would want to spend an
eternity with.

A God who has created everyone and then picks
sides (pro-Jews, anti-everyone else and men
are superior to women) is not an entity I
wish to spend an eternity with. I guess that
is the long and the short of it with me.

If you wish to tell me that I won't be spending
an eternity with your God, go right ahead.
Shiver me timbers.


reply to Steven and Chiefest of Sinners
Conservatism is the political arm of Christianity. Very few conservatives will really get this. However, Christianity as traditionally undestood is compatible with no other political ideology of the presnt day but for conservatism. Christians need to recognize that because they possess the true religion, they have the duty to and authorization from God to use the power of the state to enforce conformity to Christian beliefs.

Since Christianity is the true religion, all so-called religions and philosophies that disagree with it thereby oppose it, and thus have no rights against the true religion. Many Christians have been affected, i.e., contaminated, by the traditional American practice of generous tolerance toward other faiths. This tolerance is not justifiable in Biblical terms, and Christians need to expel such views from their minds and hearts. No matter how traditional American tolerance of diverse beliefs might be, it defies God and this needs to be admitted by conservatives.

As for feminism, as I indicated earlier, it cannot be embraced by conservatives, and it is clear that feminism defies Christianity as well. Sarah Palin cannot possibly be a genuine Christian if she believes that women have equal rights with men, or should have equal opportunities to succeed in worldly occupations. Obedience and submission of women to men is plainly taught in the Bible, in both the Old and New Testaments, and thus, since the Bible should be the ultimate basis of laws and government, such submission should be backed by the power of earthly governments, which, after all, have been ordained by God if the laws and policies they implement conform to Holy Scripture.

Steven
If you can study the Word all of your life, and end up believing that it is full of contradictions, and that God is not "pro-Jew" or has not placed the man above the woman, then you must be in the flesh and not the Spirit.

The argument you espouse, is nothing new. Different interpretations of the same scripture is not biblical. Read 2 Peter 1:20. Many read and hear the Word of God and are confounded about doctrine.

Read Isaiah ch 28:9-13

9Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts...

...yet they would not hear.

13But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

The Word is not meant for the natural man, but those born of the Spirit. The Word IS Spirit (John ch 6:63) and this is why you don't understand it and find contradictions in it.

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1 Corinthians 2:14

If a man has the Spirit, he will be led into all "truth" (Jn 16:13), and the Spirit will not lead in a way contrary to the Word, for "...whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak."

Read Deut 13:1-3 for trying the spirits.

We are to "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?"2 Corinthians 13:5

I implore you to develop a personal relationship with Jesus Christ; know the Truth.

Gestell
Establishing a theocracy with Christ at the head, is something the Jews have been looking for for centuries. Jesus, however, avoided this in John 6:15,
"When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone."

He knew the will of God, and this was not the time for such, as evident when He told Pilate in John 18:36,

"Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence."

No true Christian therefore desires a theocracy here in this present day; the believers know and understand that one day Christ will return and :
"...nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.” Revelation 19:15

As for the power of earthly governments, submission is required by the Christian (Romans 13:1-3). The founders recognized that true liberty comes from God, (read the founding documents) and apart from God there is no liberty (read the Word and look around at the countries that have expelled God or never known God). They did, however, recognize the tyranny of those "Christians" who, when in power, live in the flesh, and specified that there would be no “state” religion.

reply to Chiefest of Sinners
Have you ever heard of Rousas Rushdoony and Christian Reconstruction, also called Dominionism? Theocracy is the religious/political principle Rushdoony justifies easily on a biblical basis. Within the Calvinist tradition, to which Rushdoony's theology belongs, there are abundant resources for the sort of interpretaion of Christianity I proposed.

If it is taken seriously, the Christian message is not compatible with any modern form of government, especially not modern democracy, American-style. The theory and practice of medieval Christian Europe should help make this point clear. Political theorist and Catholic author Robert Kraynak explain, in his "Christian Faith and Modern Democracy" (U of Notre Dame Press, 2001) why Christianity and our kind of political system are fundamentally opposed to each other, with abundant documentation.
Conservative Christians often succumb all too easily to the convenient myth that Christ and the American way are two sides of the same coin. They're not. The Christian chooses Christ, and does not place his trust in the American Founders.

Chiefest
To quote an old Southern saying which has been
quoted by many others:

Dear Lord, please help me to find the truth, and
keep me from having to sit next to the person
who has already found it."

I will leave it at that. I have other things
to do.

Steven
I've never heard that old southern saying, but I am familiar with this one:


Titus 3:9-11

9But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

10A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

11Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.


Hopefully this doesn't apply to you. Do with these pearls as you will.

Gestell
I haven’t given you reason to think that I place my trust in the Founders. I merely cited their intention when framing our Government.

I haven’t heard of those you cite for reference material, my only guidance is from the Spirit and crosschecks with the Word of God. All other sources are suspect.

As Paul needed not to confer with flesh and blood and those who were Apostles before, I made my own beliefs clear, UTILIZING CHRIST’S OWN WORDS. Those who state differently are in opposition to the Word of God, Jesus Christ, no matter how many references they can cite that indicate differently.

The problem with the theologians is, in my estimation, they mostly know only what they are taught by man, and have not the unction that John describes (1 John ch 2). If we are of the Spirit, we will not contradict the Word of God, which is “forever settled in heaven”. Ps 119:89

This was the problem with the “first Covenant”. It was the law written on tables of stone. The New Covenant, is written in our hearts (if we are born of the Spirit) according to Hebrews 8:10. Therefore the natural man “…receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” 1 Corinthians 2:14

Any commentary dictated by the Spirit will of necessity confirm the Word of God.

A NEW FEMINISM HAS ARRIVED
Since the arrival of Sara Palin, the old Liberal Feminism of the Gloria Steinhem
crowd are shaking in their boots. Sarah,
unknowingly, as become the icon of the new
feminism. As a male conservative, I applaud feminists like Christina Hoff Summers and her book "Who Stole Feminism?" For too long, the
small, liberal-biased, group of the Feminist
movement has attempted to speak for all of the
country's women. It's about time that women see true feminism as the example shown through the
experiences and achievements of Sarah Palin.
Move over, Gloria, enjoy a new refreshment.
CARL-MA

From Kwaayesnama
FYI: Kwaayesnama is a my Native American name. Translation “Baby Eagle in the nest girl” - does not translate well.

Also you might wish to look at Sarah Palin’s views on Native American Sovereignty, and Tribal issues, available through a Google search.

Sara Palin is a feminist
I have long tired of the concept that Gloria Steinem and her ilk represent me. Having grown up in the 60's I remember well the feminist movement, as I was part of it. I received the first "MS" magazine, participated in 'consciousness raising groups' and took feminist courses, believing that women should be treated EQUALLY in the workplace, receiving the same pay for the same work; being able to get the same jobs as men AS LONG AS THEY WERE ABLE TO DO THE JOB.

I soon learned even then that the feminists only meant to include the intellectual types, not the average women. Even then, they were laughed at if they chose to stay home and raise their own children.

The feminist movement has turned into a nightmare.... convincing young women that their sexual prowess is proof of their rights and freedoms, that they don't need men in their lives, and that children are unnecessary to a happy life. Unfortunately man of these young women grow older and realize they have been duped by a radical version of feminism and women's rights that Elizabeth Cady Stanton and Susan B. Anthony would not recognize nor condone.

That's why Sara Palin is being treated so badly .... she's not 'one of them' after all. Not all women count in this new age of screaming, demanding, unhappy feminist.

I believe the old version of the bra-burners is irrelevant and will die of it's own misery.
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