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Thursday, July 31, 2008
Victor Davis Hanson :: Townhall.com Columnist
What If Iraq Works?
by Victor Davis Hanson
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There is a growing confidence among officers, diplomats and politicians that a constitutional Iraq is going to make it. We don't hear much anymore of trisecting the country, much less pulling all American troops out in defeat.

Critics of the war now argue that a victory in Iraq was not worth the costs,

not that victory was always impossible. The worst terrorist leaders, like Abu Musab al-Zarqawi and Muqtada al-Sadr, are either dead or in hiding.

The 2007 surge, the Anbar Awakening of tribal sheiks against al-Qaida, the change to counterinsurgency tactics, the vast increase in the size and competence of the Iraqi Security Forces, the sheer number of enemy jihadists killed between 2003-8, the unexpected political savvy of Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki and the magnetic leadership of Gen. David Petraeus have all contributed to a radically improved Iraq.

Pundits and politicians -- especially presumptive Democratic presidential

nominee Barack Obama -- are readjusting their positions to reflect the new undeniable realities on the ground in Iraq:

The additional five combat brigades of the surge sent to Iraq in 2007 are already redeployed out of the country. American soldiers are incrementally turning province after province over to the Iraqi Security Forces, and planning careful but steady withdrawals for 2009.

Violence is way down. American military fatalities in Iraq for July, as of Tuesday, were the lowest monthly losses since May 2003. The Iraq theater may soon mirror other deployments in the Balkans, Europe and Asia, in which casualties are largely non-combat-related.

Since overseas troops have to be billeted, fed and equipped somewhere -- whether in Germany, Okinawa or Iraq -- the material costs of deployment in Iraq may soon likewise approximate those of other theaters. Anger over the costs of the "war" could soon be simply part of a wider debate over the need for, and expense of, maintaining a large number of American troops anywhere abroad.

For over four years, war critics insisted that we took our eye off Afghanistan, empowered Iran, allowed other rogue nations to run amuck and soured our allies while we were mired in an unnecessary war. But how true is all that?

The continuing violence in Afghanistan can be largely attributed to Pakistan, whose tribal wild lands serve as a safe haven for Taliban operations across the border. To the extent the war in Iraq has affected Afghanistan, it may well prove to have been positive for the U.S.: Many Afghan and Pakistani jihadists have been killed in Iraq, the war has discredited al-Qaida, and the U.S. military has gained crucial expertise on tribal counterinsurgency.

Iran in the short-term may have been strengthened by a weakened Iraq, U.S. losses and acrimony over the war. Yet a constitutional Iraq of free Sunnis and Shiites may soon prove as destabilizing to Iran as Iranian subversion once was to Iraq. Nearby American troops, freed from daily fighting in Iraq, should appear to Iran as seasoned rather than exhausted. If Iraq is deemed successful rather than a quagmire, it is also likely that our allies in Europe and the surrounding region will be more likely to pressure Iran.

These shifting realities may explain both the shrill pronouncements emanating from a worried Iran and its desire for diplomatic talks with American representatives.

Other rogue nations -- North Korea, Venezuela, Cuba (not to mention al-Qaida itself) -- also do not, for all their bluster, think that or act like an impotent U.S military is mired in defeat in Iraq.

Meanwhile, surrounding Arab countries may soon strengthen ties with Iraq. After all, military success creates friends as much as defeat loses them. In the past, Iraq's neighbors worried either about Saddam Hussein's aggression or subsequent Shiite/Sunni sectarianism. Now a constitutional Iraq offers them some reassurance that neither Iraqi conventional nor terrorist forces will attack.

None of this means that a secure future for Iraq is certain. After all, there are no constitutional oil-producing states in the Middle East. Instead, we usually see two pathologies: either a state like Iran where petrodollars are recycled to fund terrorist groups and centrifuges, or the Gulf autocracies where vast profits result in artificial islands, indoor ski runs and radical Islamic propaganda.

Iraq could still degenerate into one of those models. But for now, Iraq -- with an elected government and free press -- is not investing its wealth in subsidizing terrorists outside its borders, spreading abroad fundamentalist madrassas, building centrifuges or allowing a few thousand royal first cousins to squander its oil profits.

Iraq for the last 20 years was the worst place in the Middle East. The irony is that it may now have the most promising future in the entire region.

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About The Author
Victor Davis Hanson is a classicist and historian at the Hoover Institution, Stanford University, and a recipient of the 2007 National Humanities Medal.

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Hilarious
Just hilarious!

Forming an Army among disparate militias before political consolidation has ocurred is so patently absurd I can't believe anyone's still talking about it.

You see, over several decades, groups of people may choose to form an identity and belief in certain causes. Then the people that have formed this identity might develop an army that is loyal to the leaders of the group. With that loyalty, the army actually functions and obeys the rulers of the government.

The most probable course to political consolidation in Iraq will involve violence in which a Shiite government will dominate the other groups, including some other Shiite militias, or there will be multiple governments each of which will be politically consolidated.

Loyalty is a threshold issue. You don't form functioning armies without it.

Ranger29
A frequent poster who said the war in Iraq was lost, castigated everyone he could name in many posts and is now here to "refine" his positions. He admits nothing positive has happened, no lessons were learned., the jihadists won and to boot the guy is as anti-American as you can get,

His prior posts have proven that. A far left ideologue who is inflexible and unable to comprehend his investment in defeat was a bad bet. All you can do is offer the guy a biscuit.

Sorry Ranger 29. You last, and badly.

And Ranger29
You are the poster who has all sorts of stories that have been proven false. You are being hammered right now on another column by Ann Coulter where all of the regular posters have publicized your deceipt and despicably false claims.

Resorting to deceit only shows how cheap and superficial your arguement about anything are. phony, phony.

LOL at you Ranger 29. Down in flames all over TH. And you are a militant homosexual activist who tries to post as a straight. Too funny. You don't know how!

Only Time Will Tell.
I like Mr. Hanson's work, as a historian. Even this morning's musing is interesting, as it does give us something from the "other side." However, the future is always a mystery. As good a historian as Hanson is, I'm sure he is very aware of how our nation is exactly paralleling the story of The Roman Empire. We are certainly in the time period of Pagan Rome's last 400 years, and our Dacians, et al, just won't go away. After Octavian, what kept Rome going were its occasional strong leaders -- Tiberius, Hadrian, Marcus Aurelius, Septimius, leading to Constintine, and another version of Roman Empire, lasting another thousand years. Maybe more, if one considers the continuing power of the Roman Catholic Church.

My point here is leadership is all, in every great civilization. As happened to Rome, we see in our own nation the weakening of our Congress (Rome's Senate). [Mostly due to its personel.] Now, only strong leadership, a singular person, can give us any chance at all.

After Eisenhower, Nixon, Reagan, it's getting pretty scary around here -- overall.

Step away from the koolaid, VDH
The crucial question to ask for those who claim "Iraq works" is whether Americans would favor additional Iraq ventures, "liberation" of Syria, Iran, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, etc.?

After all, that was the gist of the neocon argument: our invasion would create a democracy in Iraq that other mideast nations would insist on emulating.

Where is this ferver to duplicate in their countries these "birthpangs of democracy" in Iraq?

If anything, Muslims recoiled in horror in witnessing these socalled birthpangs on al jazeera.

SOME neocons even argued Iraq invasion would merely be the first in a series of American invasions to "liberate" the entire mideast.

About two million Iraqis fled Iraq to become refugees in Syria and Jordan.

Another million or so are displaced within Iraq itself.

We must build huge walls separating Sunnis from Shias in Baghdad(to keep violence down).

Iraqis themselves have undertaken "ethnic cleansing", segregating into Sunni-only/Shia-only neighborhoods.

And for all that, Nobel Prize winner in economics Joe Stiglitz claims the ultimate cost of this venture will be 3 trillion dollars.

To remove a Sunni despot and have him replaced by a Shia conservative government that openly is maintaining close relations with Iran.

There will be no more "Iraqs".

The neocon wetdream has been shattered.

Americans are not stupid.

Jerabaub
You said: "Americans are not stupid". If I believed that, I would know the Democrat effort at dumbing down America's youth had failed. Unfortunately after reading the tripe on this board, I am persuaded the Democrat program has been successful. It is time for the Democrats to pull their Communist professors out of our colleges and Universities and disband the teachers unions that stifle learning in the primary and secondary schools. The money spent developing stupid citizens could better be spent buying votes for more power. The education war is over; you won, now "pull out".

My hope is that Iraq will
indeed be a success. I hope they will develop a strong republic and that one day they will come over here and straighten out our government. Wouldn't that be great?

Iraq for Sale Banned Excerpts

I also hope Iraq is successful
My point is the American people will not tolerate anymore half-baked socio/political experiments on democracy-building in the Muslim world.

At least not thru military intervention.

And not at the cost(and growing)we paid in Iraq.

I think Americans are at the point on spending money here, on our infrastructure, our roads, airports, dams, levees, bridges, electrical grid.

But, yes, for everyone's sake, I want Iraq to succeed.

Why can't I spell correctly?

In first post, ferver should actually fervor.


Omitted Credit

Mr. Hanson offers a lengthy listing of policies and persons deserving of credit for our impressive recent successes in Iraq: "[t]he 2007 surge, the Anbar Awakening, ... counterinsurgency tactics, ... Iraqi Security Forces, ... enemy jihadists killed, ... Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki, ... Gen. David Petraeus....."

He forgot one -- the steadfast leadership of President Bush, who refused to abandon the effort despite incredible (and mostly less-than-honest) pressure applied by the media and the political pacifists on both the left and the right. For a total nitwit, President Bush is going to be remembered in history as one of our better presidents.

Sorry, Jerabaub, et al. For years now I've read and considered your persistent posts, in which you've insisted that our Iraq venture was a mistake and doomed to failure. And I'll continue to read your posts (you're an excellent and insightful poster), but events sure seem to be proving you wrong.

jerebaub
Look through this thing called an historical perspective and answer the following questions. How many years interceeded the Declaration of Independance an the ratification of the US Constitution? Ever hear of the Whiskey Rebellion or Sheay's Rebellion? What about that little dustup known as the Civil War? Remember that deposing a despot is a relatively simple act, especiaaly when compared to the difficulty of replacing said despot with a functioning form of government( see the deathbed comments of one VI Lennin). Iraq is a work still in progress. Given that the political landscape is littered with centuries old rivalries, it's really a mirqacle that the country has progressed to its current state as quickly as it has. The world is not an episode of Leave it to Beaver wherein the kids cause trouble, dad comes home, restores order, mom bakes cookies, and everybody is happy all in half an hour(not including commercials).

jerabaub
Unfortunately, some Americans ARE stupid.
They post about “crucial questions” that are not.
They put words (“the gist”) in the mouths of others
and attack the straw man they themselves have created.

Perhaps the worst, imho, is how they can arrogantly
revise history and draw false conclusions from the
factually incorrect assertions they have made.

The origins of the Iraq war are not in the distant past,
this is recent history, and to distort the facts of same
is either stupid or duplicitous. ( perhaps just ignorant?)

For someone who is swilling the leftist Kool-Aid
while mixing more, hoping others will swallow it,
to hurl that charge against others is, sadly, typical of leftists.


Succeed or Fail?
WARRIOR, well said! Between the "Communist professors" as Warrior puts it, and the Left-Wing media, the whole Iraq issue has turned into a battle of who wants to see this country succeed and who doesn't.
I for life of me, can't figure out why liberals want this country to be defeated.
This country is the best in the world, especially for liberals because of the many freedoms we have.
The irony is that they keep helping the very society that most dislike everything liberals stand for!
That society is radical Islam. Liberals aid and abet them by constantly protesting the war, calling President Bush a terrorist, and blaming Israel for all the ills of the Palestinians.
Have liberals ever really stepped back and thought about what would happen if Islam got a foothold in this country?
All of their radical nonsense would end immediately!
All of their Gay Pride parades, gay marriage & adoptions, supposed rights for women (N.O.W. doesn't understand or care that women are equal but different from men), and a host of other things would be finished!
I remain positive that Iraq will prove to be the beginning of a more friendly Middle East to the U.S./West, much like Japan turned out to be.

P.S. Almost forgot. At this moment there are buildings being built on a base in Iraq where the Iraqis own and do business there. They are getting work which takes the incentive away to cause disruption.
A lot of Iraqis from all sects are starting to realize that we are not the enemy!

Unlike Atheist, Liberals and Democrats,
who love to put their heads in the ground,

President Bush looked the problem right in the eye and acted.


Ridiculous
>The worst terrorist leaders, like Abu Musab al-Zarqawi and Muqtada al-Sadr, are either dead or in hiding.<

This attempt to compare al-Zarqawi and al-Sadr is one of the most dishonest and heinous distortions ever presented in the Iraq debate.

Just yesterday, al-Sadr agreed to back the Maliki government if they opposed permanenet US bases. Last summer al-Sadr declared a cease fire that was a huge part in the success of decreasing violence in Iraq. Al-Sadr is an Iraqi whose father and many of his followers were murdered by Saddam. There isn't one shred of evidence that al-Sadr has ever been involved with or organized a suicide bombing aimed at terrorizing the civilian population of Iraq.
The Sadrists have involved themselves in the political process and hold seats in the Iraqi parliament.

Hanson has seriously damaged his credibility with his characterization of al-Sadr as a terrorist in the same mold as Zarqawi.



September 12 Republican
What events?

The event where Al Maliki places his arm around a visiting Ahmadinejad, as the two nations draw far closer than ever existed when Saddam ruled Iraq?

Ahmadinejad can freely walk around Baghdad.

Can G.W. Bush?

The Bush dream is of Iraq democracy where all groups agree on the legitimacy of the national government.

Can you say that is happening?

Look at the Kurds up north...their refusal to allow the national govt to dictate ethnic/religious membership in their provincial assembly.

Look at Shias in the south, who are fighting among themselves to establish hegemony in that area.

Even the Sunnis in Anbar are being funded by us, not the national Shia dominated government.

Their allegiance will be to their tribal chief and their paymaster, not the national government.

I stand by what I said.

Iraq may be a functioning state(best case scenario), but it will be extremely decentralized, with Kurds pretty well independent(as they are now), and with Sunnis always thinking they should reclaim hegemony over the entire nation.

And it will inexorably draw closer to Iran, the main beneficiary of the invasion.

Chord
Skip the koolaid today.

You've already had enough.

The origins of the Iraq war, especially the sectarian violence that occurred after the invasion, are every bit about the distant past.

Present boundaries of Iraq were created after WW1 by the Brits who included into the mix of people...Shias, Sunnis, Arabs and non-Arabs.

This sectarian bloodshed that occurred for years after our invasion...who do you think caused it?

Norwegians?

I am not revising anything.

No mention
How can a person write a column about success in Iraq and not even mention Kirkuk and resolution 140?

This is perhaps the most pressing issue facing Iraq, while Hanson disingenously states:

>We don't hear much anymore of trisecting the country<

The KRG has and continues to operate almost completely independent of Bahdad. Kirkuk is an issue that can not be ignored, as Hanson so conveniently does. KRG president Barzani said only two weeks ago:

"If clause 140 dies, then so will the Constitution, and you will have to take responsibility for the division of Iraq"

So, if you don't hear much about Iraq splitting up, it's because you're not paying attention, which makes one wonder why you'd even bother to write such a column.

Anyway, dear friends
If you bother to actually read my posts, you will see that my points were:

1. the citizens of our Beloved Republic will not tolerate any more neocon democracy building schemes on the lines of the Iraq experience.

2. that I also hope Iraq becomes a successful state.

I just don't see a huge groundswell of support out there for invading Syria or Iran.

I think Iraq has been a bitter lesson here.

jerabaub

Stubborness is a virtue; one which you apparently share with President Bush.

Regarding the "events" making me feel confident (and proud) of our country's involvement in Iraq, I refer you back to Mr. Hanson's article, and also to the superb post offered by Moonbat Exterminator at 8:36 a.m. To quote his best line: "[t]he world is not an episode of Leave it to Beaver wherein the kids cause trouble, dad comes home, restores order, mom bakes cookies, and everybody is happy all in half an hour(not including commercials)."

Does Iran remain a menace? Absolutely. But ask yourself if our nation's ability to confront that menace is helped or hindered by your (and the media's) insistence that Iraq was nothing but a failure -- notwithstanding incredible progress on the ground.


Moonbat Exterminator
I hope you are not equating...you know...establishing a moral equivalence between the actions of our brethren during the time between our Declaration of Independence and ratification of our Constitution, and the actions of of Iraqis in the post-invasion sectarian flareups.






Jerabaub in FL
Hey and Good Morning, maybe you should read the new as you wake up, if you had you would have read or heard that there is a brand new KFC opening today in Iraq. If you don't have anything but depressive issues to report please hold your peace

Here are some thing we Liberals need to
That includes NeoCons and anyone considering voting for either McCain or Obama.
The war in Iraq has been going on for about 100 years. In the the 80's we faught a war by proxy against Iraq by funding Iran. In the 90's Bill bombed them just about every day.
Ever Stop to think why they do not want to be liberated by us? The want to be liberated from us. They do not want to be like us.....
Obama will not end the war. The only thing that will change is is troop shuffling from Iraq to Afganistan. Liberals love war. What will change is what party makes the most money from the war. Now NeoCons make about 70% and liberals 30%. Once Obama is President expect those numbers to flip flop.

I would like to add that the whole Middle East is a failure. We never should have got involed in WW1 never mind the break up of the middle east. We made a mistake and violated our Christian principles and now we are reaping the consequences. (reaping what we have sown). You fix issues like this by repenting and turning back to founding principles not by further ignoring them. It is like trying to fix a lie with a lie.



Mrs Ramsey
Why, that is great news.

I guess that pretty well confirms that our work there is done, and we can pack up and leave.

Let Colonel Sanders have his hand at reconciling these issues in Iraq.


Kirkuk 1
BAGHDAD, July 23 -- President Jalal Talabani said Wednesday that he would veto a measure governing provincial elections scheduled for this year, making it all but certain that the balloting will be delayed until 2009.

The announcement was a setback for both the Bush administration and the government of Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki, which hailed a preliminary election law passed earlier this year as evidence of political progress in Iraq. The ongoing disagreements over the polling have instead highlighted the sectarian fissures that still divide the country.

Talabani, a Kurd, said the bill passed by parliament Tuesday was unconstitutional and had been approved by only 127 lawmakers from the 275-member parliament, after the Kurdish delegation walked out in protest. For a bill to become law, it must be approved by the three-member presidency council, which Talabani heads.

"The presidency council will never pass this law," Talabani said in a statement issued by his office, which said that recent actions surrounding the legislation have "made enormous damage to the national unity."

The dispute over the measure centered on the status of Kirkuk, an oil-rich provincial capital in northern Iraq that Kurdish leaders believe should come under the authority of their semiautonomous regional government. Most of the Iraqi political parties had already agreed that elections on the status of Kirkuk would be delayed indefinitely -- the clash was over how the city should be governed in the interim.


SeekerOfTruth
Part of a quotation from John Quincy Adams:

"But She(America)goes not abroad in search of monsters to destroy. She is the well wisher of the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own."

I was especially struck by Adam's last sentence.

Another quote, this time by Edmund Burke:

"The effect of liberty on individuals is they may do what they please. We ought to see what it will please them to do, before we risk congratulations".

I often thought of Burke's quote when I read the daily horrors of Iraqis beheading other Iraqis, power drills into their skulls, mutilations of corpses, etc.

I suspect you are right that they, like most Muslims, want to be liberated FROM us.

They like our money. They may even like our fast foods. But those are mere exterior trappings, appearances. They do not want to be like us.

And it is a bit arrogant that we would presume they would.

But whatever results in Iraq, it will be strictly bound by Sharia law, and I suspect it will eventually align itself with Iran.

The big question is how Iraq and Iran deal with the Sunni regimes in the area.

Kirkuk 2
The legislation approved by parliament would divide control of the Tamim provincial council among Arabs, Kurds and Turkmens; currently the Kurds control the balance of power on the council as well as the governorship. The bill also calls for Kirkuk to be controlled by troops from central and southern Iraq, instead of the Kurdish pesh merga forces that now patrol the city. When the speaker of parliament called for a secret ballot to vote on those parts of the legislation, the Kurds walked out of the session.

"It was a big surprise," said Sami al-Askary, a Shiite lawmaker close to Maliki who was traveling with the prime minister in Germany on Wednesday. "The defeat was due to mismanagement by the speaker and his deputies and then the sudden sharp rejection by the Kurds."

http://kurdistanobserver.servehttp.com/July-2008/24-7-08-ta labani-vows-to-reject-election-bill.html

So again I ask,

How is it possible to speak of Iraq success without even mentioning Kirkuk?

The president and the prime minister are at opposite ends of the spectrum. The Kurds will never allow a Shiite, Sunni or any Arab military force replace the Peshmerga as the security force for Kirkuk.

Even worse, about the only attempt to help negotiate from the US has been Condi Rice pleading with Barzani and the KRG to be good little boys and not rock the unity boat. She says this while also ignoring Turkish bombing of the PKK within the boundaries of Iraqi Kurdistan.

The Democrats revolving argument game
Regardless of how well we do in Iraq, it is clear that the Democrats intend to color it in shades of failure.

Early on, when the surge seemed to show immediate results, it was framed as "too soon to tell." When the reduced level of violence went from tenuous to sustained, the mantra changed, they always knew the surge would work, it was the unstable Maliki government that was the problem.

When Maliki began to get a grip on the political front, it was the failure to implement the U.S. benchmarks that was the cry of failure. When al-Maliki was shown to have satisfactorily implemented 15 of 18 benchmarks, the argument simply shifted to the cost.

Bottom line, you can't win an argument with a liberal, they simply re-frame the issue to a new position. What is most maddening is that far too many let them get away with it. The only recourse then is to simply ignore them.

Iraq democracy
Pancho says Iraq is having difficulties with their democracy. Hey, isn't that great, they are not having their issues solved by being bombed with poisons.

Another person says they want to be free from us. Unlike with Hussein, had we not taken him out, this will happen.

I'm hip
>The only recourse then is to simply ignore them.<

You mean like you and Hanson ignore the critical issue of Kirkuk?

JimP
"Unlike Atheist, Liberals and Democrats,
who love to put their heads in the ground."

Amen bro, and thankfully we have been able to hold onto our precious tax cut in this time of terror. The entire war costs have been put onto the national credit card. I, too, am willing to soldier on in Iraq for another 100 years so long as we get to hold onto our precious tax cut. Remember, when the Iraqis stand up, we can stand down!

Pancho
You cite one issue out of literally hundreds as the basis for your pessimism. You, not I sir are the one who is putting all your argument eggs into a single basket.

Secondly, without having researched your "Kirkuk" issue, verifying the sources you present and obtaining other input from additional sources, I can't in anyway know if the issue is as desperate as you suggest.

You epitomize my argument, you failed to acknowledge the points made by Mr. Hanson, the success we have achieved and the opportunities they represent. You simply resorted to a doom and gloom scenario and ignored the rest.

Iraq works if the Liberals agree

If only the Liberals and the media in this country would just get on the side of the U.S.A. for once, and give the perception of unity and strengh to the Iranians, we could avoid another Iraq type of conflict. The Liberals and the media have been the propaganda enemy of the U.S. during this whole conflict. I believe that the success that we are seeing now, could have been achieved much sooner if we were all on the same page. Dissent is great, but not when our sons and daughters are being killed by an enemy that is being fueled everyday by the propaganda of the Left in this country!

Not my fault
>Secondly, without having researched your "Kirkuk" issue, verifying the sources you present and obtaining other input from additional sources, I can't in anyway know if the issue is as desperate as you suggest.<

And yet, you think someone should be interested in your observations, even tough you admit you haven't researched one of the major issues in Iraq.

I'm not resorting to gloom and doom. I'm simply relating an issue that is paramount to stability in Iraq and backing it up with quotes from the president of the KRG and the president of Iraq. Any objective analysis would include the positions of these two most influential persons, instead of dismissing it as one issue out of literally hundreds.

If you're truly interested in honesty, as opposed to playing political games, you'll do your homework before admitting ignorance of the issue.

JERA...man you are exhausting!
The biggest argument to your totally miopic view of the progress in IRAQ is the same spoused by MR. Magoobama... to admit to be mistaken is a commendable trait. Anytime my husband can eat food that reminds him of home, yes, It makes ME happy, even if it's Col Sanders in IRAQ.

True democracy. Let's have a plebiscite!
At the end of the day, my little Bush-idolizing, neocon koolaid-swigging friends, is the point I made in my first most modest posting(6:24 a.m.).

And that point is this:

If Iraq is such a "success", surely the patriotic citizens of our Beloved Republic would demand that we replicate the Iraq experience onto other mideast nations.

Why not have the entire middle east become one great success?

Makes sense to me.

Certainly the victimized and oppressed citizens of Egypt's Mubarak, Syria's Al-Assad, Iran's Ahmadinejad, just to name a few, are all as deserving of a U.S. military invasion to bring about liberty as are the citizens of Iraq.

That was the plan of some neocons all along...that the Iraq invasion was but the first in a series of U.S. military invasions to wrest the peoples of the Muslim world from the clutches of tyranny.

Let us do the fair thing.

Let us have a plebiscite on this issue.

Let the vote be whether thousands of U.S. military men and women should be sacrificed, and hundreds of thousands more sustain life-long horrific injuries, and that our nation's treasury be exhausted, so that the blessings of liberty can accrue to Egyptians, Syrians, Iranians...so they can too taste the succulent fried chicken a KFC outlet can deliver?

I am willing to let that vote go forward.

If Iraq is such a success, my little koolaid swigging friends, I am sure you would be willing too.

The OBSTRUCTIONIST
The possum grinnin', mealy mouth, milquetoast, muttering Senator Reid is the definition of incompetence. Term limits would eliminate insanity such as this man and the professional, political parasites of his ilk who are ruining OUR COUNTRY with obstruction. All the old goat wants is power. His blatant lies are beyond the pale!
The incompetent Senate Majority Leader is not only a liar he called General Petraeus a liar after he voted with the unanimous vote of competence for both Generals Petraeus and Pace. Reid cares only about winning the next election and not one whit about national security, the American people and especially our military warriors and their families.
This mugwump of Nevada was gleefully announcing ignorant lies for public consumption, on television with his 'sickening' grin, "This war is going to win us some Senate seats and the White House".
He is the top dog of the Democrats and they have an equally power hungry Speaker who now have all the power any political party needs, yet they do not know what to do with it except subpoena, investigate and surrender our country to al Qaeda.

"A nation can survive its fools and even the ambitious, but it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is formidable, for he is known and carries his banners openly against the city, but the traitor moves among those within the gates freely, his sly whispers rustling through the alley and heard in the very halls of government itself. He rots the soul of a nation; he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city; he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist."
Cicero

G.I. Joe
There are several points all you commie libs in this blog miss (and are blind to). [Speaking of blind, where is that ignoramus rumpRanger29?].

I was in the sandbox for OSW kicking over to OIF. I can tell you firsthand (as will anyone else who was actually there) that we thought we were going to get slimed. It was not a Bush conspiracy to make up stories about WMD to "finish what his daddy started."

There are open sources that detail that there was VX and Sarin poured into the Tigris R. We found an entire battery of Al Samood missiles with weaponized VX. The rest went to Syria before the invasion. Saddam had *less* WMD than we expected, but he had plenty. ALso, his nuke program was well AHEAD of what our intel before the war indicated. So you pinko libs can stuff a sock in it.

Secondly, assuming arguendo there wasn't a single gram of WMD in Iraq; assuming we went in for all the wrong reasons... we could not have hoped for a better result. We took out Uday and Qusay Hussein -- sparing the world another 50 years of terror worse than anything Saddam ever dreamed of.

Then Al Qaeda chose to make Iraq its central front against the west. Better Iraq than Manhattan!

All the commie-pinko-lib-dems had so say about the war was that it was a quagmire -- another Vietnam. Yes, it was another Vietnam. It was AL QAEDA'S Vietnam. They joined a battle in Iraq that they couldn't win and they couldn't pull out of. FACE!

Neverland...
...about as reality based as the concept of a 'unified, Democratic Iraq'. It would be nice but. Any student of history knows that over thousands of years this territory has been fissiparous by nature. It was cobbled together after WWI and held together by dictatorship much as Yugoslavia under Tito. The loyalties of these militias and even a new Iraqi army etc. are ultimately beholden to the centuries worth of religious and ethnic identification.
No one including the 'experts', who also predicted it would be over in 3 weeks etc., can project what will happen in Iraq after our departure no matter when that happens. To think this is a win/lose situation is a mentality that displays complete ignorance of reality and history.

One final note.
I do think most of us on this site deeply care about our nation.

It is just that some of us disagree on certain decisions by this administration.

I do not think any of you are unpatriotic for disagreeing with me.

And I trust you do not think me unpatriotic for disagreeing with some of you.

Disagreeing with the decisions of any administration does not make one unpatriotic.

I must bid you farewell for the rest of the day.

But I have enjoyed the lively debate.

Thank you.

G.I. Joe
All of this success is due to our military's flexibility and courage. We brought F-22s to a knife fight. So we took a few punches, adjusted our tactics, and then "saddamized" the insurgents.

Winning this war has been a dirty bloody and difficult process. It has caused fathers (and mothers) to miss precious years of their children growing up. It has strained a lot of marriages. It has cost a lot of money. It has sent home thousands of wounded G.I.s, and it has cost 4,124 US lives. (Not counting contractors).

But history will show that as a comparatively modest ante for the tide-turning effect our victory will have on the middle east and the globe.

The Pinkos are partly right: The difficulty of the war vs. the "we'll be home by Christmas", "shock and awe", and "the oil will pay for the war" -- that nonsense has taught us a lesson. But we have taught the world a lesson about the goodness of America.

We have taught the tyrants a lesson about the efficacy of our military. It doesn't rest upon laser-guided bombs, it rests on something much more robust -- the sheer courage, devotion, and love of country of our soldiers and marines.

The dear price we have paid in Iraq has taught us -- or rather re-taught us a lesson about the price of freedom. It seems each generation is required to re-pay such a price - and thank God for good men like these!

Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value. Heaven knows how to put a proper price upon its goods; and it would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as FREEDOM should not be highly rated.



G.I. Joe
Let me clarify one thing - on re-reading my post. I do NOT count myself among those brave soldiers and marines. I was Air Force and at a relatively non-combat forward location. Also, I completed my tour before the insurgency really ramped up.

However, I was lucky enough to be there for OEF and OSW, then volunteered to stay for the first 5 months of OIF. And I was in every battle staff meeting, so I heard all the daily intel briefings. So my perspective on this is first-hand.

I can also tell everyone that OIF did NOT take any resources away from OEF. Some war funding was reprogrammed to fund the bed down of US forces prior to Congress passing the OIF war funding bill. But in practical terms, there is not one instance that I know of where a Predator was sent to the Iraq theater of operations that was needed in the Afgh theater. Not one example of personnel being retasked from ATO to ITO. There was free flow between the two (we did the airlift). Half of my job was to service bases in Bagram and Kandahar (and others), so I would know if they were short anything. ANd they weren't.

Keeping a small footprint in Afgh was intentional. It was to avoid the mistakes the Soviets made.

Also, when Iraq kicked off, it took the media away from Afghanistan, which allowed us to carpet bomb some areas and do some other not-so-pretty things that were necessary while the world *wasn't* watching.

So let's put that John Kerry nonsense about Iraq being a distraction from Afghanistan TO BED ONCE AND FOR ALL>


Pancho - self-declared rectitude
Boy, am I glad to hear someone tell the rest of us how wrong we are because he knows and has told the ultimate "truth", about which we have not done our homework, thus do not have the standing to assert what we say is the truth, says he, and we are therefore wrong. Sounds like Kerry four years ago, Mr. Obama now, and Nancy Pelosi (amongst a whole host of others of the same ilk). The point = Golly, I know as much about what you are saying Mr. Pancho (and I suggest you do not as well) as I do about the claims of just about every American politician in the U.S. Congress for or against your "average" bill being lobbied for or against, such ignorance being exactly what the pols expect and feed on their way to the bank. How come I am willing to credit Mr. Hanson's point (and by the way, the "Mr." is purposeful and respectful) and not yours? Because in the circumstances, over the long haul, based on what I do know, trust and believe about people generally, history, Mr. Hanson and his writing and points before this and in this, etc., etc., I can 'smell' truth and count on it over time. Now if you want to claim that your one 'trump' is so all-impoertant, go get one of your liberated media folks to 'bay at the moon', and then we'll all find out whether what you say has any reality beyond "the sky is falling". Put another way, in my experience on the planet, you do not get any brownie points for your obviously biased and skewed viewpoint. get

Declare victory and get out
Victor Hanson a historian?

My main objection to Hansen is that he keeps linking the disputes among Sunnis, Shiites and Kurds to the "success" of our troops. And he refuses to recognize the distinction between national elections and constitutional government.

There have somewhere between 40 and 60 countries since the late 1940s that have held national elections without having histories of constitutional development. To this day, NONE of them have developed constitutional institutions. They turn out like the authoritarian democracies in Iran or Venezuela.

Hanson was one of the people to bring up post-war Germany and Japan. Over several centuries of internal conflict, much of it violent, Japan and Germany developed into nation states. Each also had long histories of constitutional development before they were briefly taken over by the Nazis and Militarists respectively.

Thus, General MacArthur and General Clay introduced democratic reforms into two politically consolidated societies with histories of constitutional development.

The idea that our military should be used to try to create a politically consolidated society and that national elections help create constitutional orders is about as dumb as it gets.

Formerly "soms" @ 4:41
Enjoyed your post but think the Roman Empire analogy is tired. As for leadership, only weak people require strong leaders. The Grants & Eisenhowers are always out there, a part of the American fabric that only gets tapped in time of emergency. Our 'leadership' potential is in the Common Man, who keeps the republic's wheels turning through every crisis. We don't need Caesars or Napoleons.
Have faith.

A neo-con sucker is born every minute
Hanson offers the following: "A constitutional Iraq of free Sunnis and Shiites may soon prove as destabilizing to Iran as Iranian subversion once was to Iraq."

Hanson's enduring quest to extract victory from the jaws of defeat reminds me of Samual Johnson, who once quipped that second marriages represent the triumph of hope over experience. Hanson must be on his fifth or six marriage by now.

Many observers now fear the expansion of Iranian hegemony as the most likely end game scenario. In that event, our invasion and occupation of Iraq—even if conducted with the best of intentions—will have done more to threaten freedom than keeping Saddam's murderous regime intact. At least Iraq under Saddam’s Ba’ath party would have served as a countervailing power against Iran's regional ambitions (which U.S. meddling has greatly empowered).

For such irrational idealism by the Bush Administration, the middle class will pay dearly as war debt mounts, and safety nets begin to unravel under the weight of Neo-con austerity measures.

John Burns, the brilliant Pulitzer prize-winning British reporter for the New York Times has been in theater to report extensively and objectively on the war. He acknowledges the remarkable tactical gains made the U.S. surge, but notes how precarious those gains have been against the broader strategic context of cultural, religious and political forces over which the U.S. has little control.

"Iraq could still degenerate", Hanson notes. Meanwhile, we continue to spend 1 Billion every 72 hours on nation-building efforts President Bush came to office deriding as expensive folly.

Libs ask yourselves
If Bush was so horrible how is it Congress ruled by democrats would not bring charges against him? It is the obligation members of Congress to uphold the constitution. If the Bush administration commited crimes, as so many of you claim, why do they ignore their DUTY?

Why didn't Obama, Hillary, Reid or Pelosi bring a resolution to stop funding of the war?

Obama et. al. deserve to be removed from office for neglecting their obligation to the nation if you truly believe the war was a lie and fighting it was wrong. But I don't expect liberals to hold their representatives responcible.

It would appear that your less for change and more for conversation and finger pointing.

Hey Anne
Uh, does that mean the surge failed?
I'll take Hansen's opinion over your blather any day.
By the way, I noticed while Obama was in Iraq, he was not wearing any protective gear. Hmmm, what do you think that means.

Chances are, Israel will be keeping Iran too busy to form an Iranian hegemony.

Bush's irrational idealism? It seems you choose to ignore the facts. What was it that they sent from Iraq to Canada recently? It was yellow something. Oh yea, it was yellow cake. It would seem Joe Wilson was a traitorous liar wouldn't it.
How many Al-Qaida Terrorist did our troups kill in Iraq? How many Hammas Terrorist (Iranian)?

Now, if you want to talk about cost and waste, lets look at how much money this country has wasted on Fraudlent Environmental Programs. Is your car running on Ethanol? How about the trillions wasted on welfare programs that destroyed the black family structure.
You sound like a liberal University Professor.
Try taking your head out of that hole on your posterior and remember what happened on 911.
Also remember that Sadam was provided ample opportunity to comply with the UN (14 UN Resolutions)and failed to do so. Bush's going into Iraq was based on existing Intelligence reports. The Socialist in our congress have done everything they can to show Bush acted incorrectly but have failed. I should also mention that most of the Socialist voted to go after Iraq based on the same intelligence Bush had.

Atlas Shrugged


No Matter What
Iraq is and always will be a bad war! It doesnt matter if we are successful or not! Its a loose loose situation! We went in under the wrong circumstance,have stayed too long and its almost broke out country! Sorry folks thats not a win!

Flori daH
You are fine with Hussein? There are some things the world should do. Removing a murderer tyrannt should be one of them. That the rest of the coalition started to set up trade agreements says more about their moral priorities than it does Bush's ambitions (an argument the left has used to say the war was wrong.

No matter what? Shows either a terrible lack of imagination or a gullible acceptance of democrat rhetoric.

Will you hold Reid, Pelosi and Hillary responcible for allowing the war to go forward? They could have denied funding like the Congress did with Viet Nam.

No. Probably reward them with the power of Congress and the presidency.

Hey Anne.. I mean compos_mentis
I was supposed to be addressing compos_mentis.
Auto Complete error!

A blathering soundbite for Sanrob
On 7/31, 3:28pm, EST, Sandrob--another Townhall neo-con janizary and RW clone--took offense at my skepticism about the war (see my blog entry: A Neocon sucker is born every minute on July 31, 2:38pm, EST).

My thesis was simply that our recent force escalation might have achieved a modest, tactical victory and bought us time, but that Iraqi political stability remains precarious.

Hansen himself admits that Iraq could degenerate into an autocracy or a jihadist Islamic state. (Doesn't sound like he's convinced the "surge" was a total success to me.) And Maliki's embrace of Barak's 16-month timetable for U.S. troop withdrawl is already stirring trepidation among neo-con war planners, who speculate whether Iraq is already falling captive to growing Iranian hegemony in the region.

Your observation that the surge must be working because of Barak's recent tour in short-sleeved attire (sans protective gear) is rather specious. He was surrounded by heavily armed infantry, armored vehicles, and air support. McCain received the same protection during his celebrated visits to Iraq. Gaza was similarly purged for President Bush's photo-op earlier this year. the military excells at stagecraft.

It appears that yellowcake was found in Iraq, as you suggest. But the reason neo-cons are willing to accept criticism about faulty intelligence is that growing evidence now suggests that--at the Russians' behest--Iraqi biological and chemical WMDs were shipped by Saddam to Syria before the outbreak of war in 2003. If that's true, Israel and the West would be more vulnerable to rogue terrorists.

Any way your look at it, we're in one hell of a mess, thanks to irrational neo-con idealism, and the strategic planners from the Cold war era who came out of retirement to get us into another fight. This fall, let's hope the electorate puts them back in their rockers.

Hey Compost_Mentus
neo-con idealism? Maybe should go back and look at the congressional votes. Hillery voted for it, Kerry voted for it just before he didn't, Rockefeller, Reid. Just about everyone except Kucinich who is one fry short of a happy meal.
You went much further than skepticism. You seem to think you have a handle on the complexities of what went into the Iraq War. All you Libs seem to forget the 18 months that preceded us sending troops over there. You seem to forget Colen Powell's (Non-Neo-Con) testimony before the U.N. You forget the 14 Resolutions Saddam was in violation of. You ignore how the Socialist Party were adamant about going after that rascal Saddam.
You sir are a Liberal Lemming. Your diatribe doesn't even qualify as independent thought, it's just more of the same platitudes dressed up as thoughtful premises. In fact it is the same BLATHER the liberal Socialist and their lackeys the MSM, have been spewing for eight years. When McCain gets in, we will have to listen to the same tripe all over again. Maybe some of you chumps will come up with something original so that those of us NEO-CONs don't have to die laughing every time every time you screw up the Socialist Talking Points.
Stick with brainwashing young idle minds, your not cutting it on TH.

When Iraq is finally independent...
watch what happens. They will have another dictator, or at least a dictatorial state in no time. Such is the nature of present day Islam. These people need to be weened of their religion and be liberalized. That's not going to happen anywhere in the Islamic Middle East for a long time to come, so the war is not won, nor will it be until then. They need a liberating thinker, like Thomas Jefferson, not a neanderthal, like Bush, who believes in dictatorial government himself.

Read It and Weep Libs-Barack Exposed!!
"The Obama Nation-Leftist Politics and the Cult of Personality" by Jerome Corsi,Ph.D, the co-author of "Unfit for Command" the Swift Boat Veteran's expose' of John Kerry (the book that helped defeat that seditious traitor in 2004), will go on sale Aug.1.

It has been steadily climbing the charts and at late-evening is already at No.11 on the Amazon list. (Nancy Pelosi's new autobiography has in contrast dropped from the high 500s all the way down to 1,191 in a single day!)

Corsi was on Mark Levin this evening, and claims to have the GOODS on Barack Hussein! (DOCUMENTED with over 600 referenced footnotes)

Corsi claims to examine and expose:

Obama's extensive connections with Islam.

The nature of his 20yr relationship with the Black Liberation Theology of Jeremiah Wright.

Obama's connections with Kenya.

Obama's involvement with the slumlord empire of Chicago political fixer Tony Rezko.

Obama's anti-nuclear weapon (for America) foreign policy.

GUARNTEED to have the same affect in waking up American voters that "Unfit for Command" did!

It will be interesting to see how the Mainstream Obama-backing media reacts to this!! Ha Ha Ha

I can't wait 'til the bookstore opens!!

RickV404, Please!
There are no ME Jeffersonians, there will never be another Carter to let some Muslim thugs take over a country (especially with our military in the area) and Bush is going to be one of the smartest leaders in history once McCain follows up on his legacy and subdues the entire ME.

You see the original strategy of showing our allies and our enemies and the ones on the fence of who was going to win is biting the defeatist anti-American dims led by their messiah, Oblaba in the buttocks. Talk about Neanderthal, you need to check out some of the dweeb dims and their inability to face reality. Just a little over 90 days to go. I have great confindence in the American people to slap these guys down once and for all.

compos_mentis
Do you have a clue as to the cost of the 90's attacks up to and including 9/11? A president should weigh the future costs of sitting on his hands (or his intern) while oil rich dictators thumb their nose at you after they're supposedly defeated and embargoed. Thanks to our good friends at the UN and in France and Germany Saddam was back in business and Bush made sure he lived up to the resolutions or paid the price. Just because an intellectual like you thinks the glass is half empty and prefers to be part of the problem (undermining)rather than part of the solution (signaling the enemy of our total support of the troops mission to remove terrorists) doesn't make President Bush's decision any less accurate. And Hanson is right when refering to the uncertainty of third world governments. But you geniuses fail to realize there are moderate Arab regimes. You seem so certain of Iranian hegemony. Give me a break.

OBTW I'm an old conservative not a neo like you libs like to call everybody. When they threw the dead body of our Navy Seal off that plane back in the 70's I wanted to start blasting desert tents until they turned em over. That's what sub-species understand. You'll realize that if by chance someday one of em get a knife to your throat.

Rejoinder to Sandrob and Indyconan
On July 31 at 9:28pm, Sandbob posits: "Look at the congressional votes. Hillery voted for it (the Iraq war), Kerry voted for it just before he didn't, Rockefeller, Reid. Just about everyone..."

Your criticism of liberal complicity in the Iraq debacle is, indeed, poignant and damning. To their credit, Dem leadership has since repudiated Bush's foreign policy and war management, but their equivocation subjected them to charges of political expediency--and worse, hypocrisy. This conundrum made it virtually impossible for Dem war critics to claim the moral high ground in the years following the 2003 invasion.

Rank and file Dems can at least take solace in the fact that, had Gore been elected in 2000, the neo-con war lobby would not have have found as receptive an audience for their interventionist delusions.

You then claim that "(I)seem to think (I) have a handle on the complexities of what went into the Iraq War. All you Libs seem to forget the 18 months that preceded us sending troops over there." I find it astonishing that conservatives--who support the free market so strenuously--are so eager to embrace military solutions to foreign policy crises. My original point is that we DON'T know all the comlexities to govt interferance, either domestically or globally.

Indyconan embraces the same delusion when he argues that "a president should weigh the future costs of sitting on his hands while oil rich dictators thumb their nose at (us)." Governments are inept at weighing such costs. Conservatives are loath to accept such a flimsy rationale when politicians seek to raise taxes at home. They should be equally skeptical when politicians rally the country behind dangerous military gambles abroad.

Imagine if Dems not undermining effort!
Much is owed to those who have made success in Iraq possible, including supporting the Surge.

But I will always believe success would have come a year or two earlier, with fewer killed, if the Democrats (Murtha, Kennedy, Kerry, Reid, Pelosi, etc.) had not routinely undermined our efforts, often purely for political benefit!
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