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Thursday, July 17, 2008
Victor Davis Hanson :: Townhall.com Columnist
America is Not Post-Anything
by Victor Davis Hanson
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In the last 20 years, we were lectured constantly about “post-industrial” America.

Experts proclaimed that the United States had evolved into an “information society” of “high-tech jobs.” The traditional sources of American strength -- manufacturing, the production of food and fuel, and the assembling of cars and trucks -- were apparently passé. Instead, others less fortunate abroad were to do those more grubby tasks, while Americans, with their BlackBerrys and laptops, funded, organized, lectured and critiqued them.

Illegal aliens might cook our meals or change our children’s diapers to free us up for far more important tasks of litigation, finance and environmental review. The Chinese would make everything from our shoes to our phones. The Japanese would supply us with quality high-end goods like cars and cameras. The Africans, Arabs, Iranians, Russians and Venezuelans would drill oil in nasty, dirty places so we wouldn’t have to.

Even our food -- which would be always in season -- would increasingly be shipped in from Mexico and South America.

Refined Americans became more concerned over questions of gender, race and class justice in our universities and courtrooms, as if the chief problem were only dividing the American pie equitably, rather than expanding it.

The real source of American wealth apparently was the mere fact that we were Americans. Therefore, the rest of the world should naturally loan us money to sustain our envied lifestyle. Our homes got bigger, and we bought and sold them more as investments than as places to raise our families.

Our top graduates opted for Wall Street, insurance, law, journalism and academia. Why not, when laws made it more conducive to invest and trade, but harder and less lucrative to build, drill, farm and manufacture?

American universities bragged that they were teaching the world how to design and engineer -- as our own kids gravitated to law and management schools. We relied on a paternalistic government to regulate what we shouldn’t do rather than turn to our best and brightest private citizens to show us what we could.

Alas, no successful civilization in history -- Greece, Rome, England, France, the list goes on -- ever found prosperity through its bureaucrats and lawyers.

The result of all this growing American laxity and condescension so far is mixed.

The good news, aside from the fact that Americans have never had it so good, is that millions in China are no longer starving. Japan talks of marketing hybrid cars, not re-establishing its old “Co-Prosperity Sphere.” The Persian Gulf looks more like Las Vegas than the badlands of Waziristan. Billions in the new globalized world are now emulating the American middle class, which, for all the caricatures, still represents freedom and affluence for so many.

The downside, of course, is a growing collective panic here at home, over whether such undeniable progress is sustainable when America is up to its neck in debt, dependent on foreign energy and plagued by self-doubt and inaction.

Our 21st-century paralysis is surprising. The United States is not materially exhausted. We sit atop trillions of dollars worth of untapped oil, gas, coal, shale and tar sands.

America could mine more uranium, and reprocess fuels to build hundreds of nuclear plants. American agriculture is blessed with the world’s best soils, most developed irrigation systems, and most productive and astute farmers.

There is as much sun and wind in the western United States as anywhere in the world. We have plenty of natural resources and the know-how to make all the wood, steel and cement products we need.

A new, hungrier generation of Americans will have to want to reclaim our pre-eminence and change the national attitude. It must be ready to pay off generations of debt rather than borrow, build rather than sue, and drill rather than whine.

It’s time to honor rather than avoid and outsource physical labor. Our children are healthy enough to cut our own lawns and pick our fruit. Let’s also hope they want to hear a lot more about Gen. David Petraeus’ success, and a lot less of Madonna’s latest psychodramas.

But just as importantly, what Americans need now is leadership to get moving again -- rather than more platitudes about hope, squabbling about race and gender, and endless rhetoric about who is really a maverick or a true conservative or the most liberal. What we need to know from our two presidential candidates are specifics about how to jumpstart America.

So, how many more barrels of oil, refineries and megawatts will America produce --and when and how? How much debt will the next administration retire -- and when and how. How and when will our schools return to knowledge-based rather than the present (and failing) therapeutic curriculum?

Americans, in short, should be tired of hearing that we are a post-industrial, postmodern, post-anything society. Instead, we want to be known again as a can-do producer nation that sweats as much as it thinks. And the confident presidential candidate who can best assure us of that will surely win this election.

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About The Author
Victor Davis Hanson is a classicist and historian at the Hoover Institution, Stanford University, and a recipient of the 2007 National Humanities Medal.

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YEAH!
"It’s time to honor rather than avoid and outsource physical labor. "

Right on!

Sustainable organic locally grown produce!

Living wages for honest labor!

Can a Nation Change Its Course?
VDH is right with most of his observations, but he would probably be that same voice addressing a group of 3rd Century Romans. One may get a better perspective of collapse by looking in the rear view mirror.

"What America Needs Now Is Leadership"
is so true.
Unfortunately we are sorely lacking there and the new prospects do not offer hope for improvement.
Hard experience with socialism will create wisdom and a new determination for self reliance and freedom.
Let's hope it won't be too late.

paranoid mis-led
The market will reward productive behaviour accordingly, always has, always will.
Your idiotic theories are very revealing; you stated on another post you thought the media moguls were conservative (?)
Ask Ted Turner or Mort Zuckerman or Al USA Today
about their politics. Don't come on this forum and expect to be taken seriously as a thinker until you've done some thinking. I suggest anything written by Milton Friedman or Thomas Sowell.

Victor, you are way off on this one.

Victor Davis Hanson (VDH) is mistaking the mechanics of how people make a living with the morality that makes people.

VDH incorrectly claims that returning to the organization and structure of the economies of the past will cause a return to the principles of economics that formed those economies.

VDH is showing in this article that he is ignorant of fact-based macro economics. Cheap labor "by those less fortunate" is NOT the reason companies moved manufacturing and industry from the U.S.

Operating a steel mill profitably in the U.S. today cannot be done because the economic liberty of the past has been lost and replaced by the bondage of oppressive taxation, junk-science regulation and crippling legal obstructionism by environmentalists who the government respects, recognizes and aids in destroying industry.

VDH is most wrong in belittling the concern over who is conservative and who is liberal.

True conservatives (classical liberals) believe in all the things that Victor Davis Hanson is pining for in this article. Liberalism (smilely faced fascism) is responsible for all the problems VDH bemoans in this article.

Using VDH's logic of this article, to eradicate drunk driving accidents and fatalities we should shun cars and revert to horse and buggy.

VDH needs to learn how to teach his kids the value work by helping mom sell things on eBay rather than cutting the lawn.

Actually VDH, you are dead wrong.

We have moved beyond the horse and buggy, we have moved beyond the typewriter and we've moved beyond mowing the lawn.

You just need to use your noodle a bit more to figure out ways to translate the way to teach traditional values to post-internet generations.

Sorry Vic, sometimes you are wrong because you need to look at the problem from a different point of view.

Hey Ex-Canuck!
Suck on some facts!

http://www.mediachannel.org/ownership/chart.shtml

The market is heartless and self-destructive.

We need locally grown organic produce and living wages for honest work. And we need it now!

MMadox: It does not work that way.

"Hard experience with socialism" will not "create wisdom and a new determination for self reliance and freedom".

It has been irrefutably proven through more than a century of empirical evidence from experience with socialism in all its virulent forms that people do not gain wisdom from the failures of socialism" and they do not turn from socialism until it is "too late".

Too late means it does not happen before the entire nation suffers horribly and not before thousands or millions die.

And even after there has been horrific suffering and death, the people do not turn entirely from the monster that causing their pain and misery.

Look at the former Eastern Block countries like East Germany. The East Germans who experienced the horrors of full blown socialism are not decrying it to there new fellow citizens. East Germans are not shunning the redistribution of wealth and resisting government control of their lives.

Former East Germans are marching right back down the socialist path to misery and suffering.

John Adams and Thomas Jefferson did not embrace and fight for the right to be self reliant and free because of "hard experience with socialism".

Quite to the contrary, the reason they fought for the creation of a new nation was to preserve the exceptional land of freedom and self reliance they had always known.

No socialist society has ever turned into a libertarian society.

It is abject foolishness to think that people will turn if they suffer enough. The peddlers of socialism have an almost endless bucket of lies to use to convince people who are in their thrall to keep throwing good money after bad.

paranoidmystic: You need to stop sucking

Corporations are not right-wing (or what you call "conservative").

Businesses are oportunistic and will do whatever they need to do to stay in business and make a profit.

If anything, businesses have been historically more left-wing than right-wing.

I'll bet you also think Hitler was right-wing and German businesses were big supporters of Nazism. Right?

Not true. Nazis were hard on business and businesses only reluctantly supported Hitler after he came to power -- much like when Microsoft went from having 1 token lobbyist in D.C. before the government tried to destroy them to having 600 lobbyists after the dust of their "anti-trust" case settled.

Hitler was a socialist and a corporatist. You are a corporatist -- just like you. You would absolutely love the Nazi platform because they had something exactly like the "organic locally grown" schtick you are trying to shackle everyone with and the they insisted on the "living wage" you scream about every chance you get.

The Nazi platform supported 100% regulation of all industry including setting profits limits which I am sure is exactly what you want to do.

You should look up the Nazi platform. Really.

You'd absolutely go ga-ga over it. They banned unhealthy foods and were also the first to implement clean air regulations and animal rights.

And don't forget, daddy Adolph was a religious vegetarian.

But you'd REALLY fall in love with Uncle Benito. Mussolini was Hitler without the Holocaust.

And like I said, if you actually found out the facts about Hitler you'd think he was Obama.

Of course, you will have to keep in mind that Hitler's racist angle -- like Obama's -- matched the sentiment of the people at the time and since you live now and not in the 1930s you will not like daddy Adolph's racist angle.

But you DO get your panties in a twist when you are fed today's politically correct myths about racism.

Sieg heil!

RE: LIF at 1:50
You are correct that liberals continually lie to lead us further into socialism and historically into failure.
I believe the people of the US, who have experienced freedom and capitalism, will accept the growing taxation and control by the government only to a point. Then there will be a demand to return to more conservative government or there will be a revolt. There will be a breaking point, hopefully before the country is broken beyond repair.
If not, we are truly doomed to the same fate of previous socialistic states.

Outstanding
Alas, no successful civilization in history -- Greece, Rome, England, France, the list goes on -- ever found prosperity through its bureaucrats and lawyers.
-------------------------------------------

The best paragraph you have ever written. The article is worth 5 stars for that alone.

Missed One...
Apparently, we're also not post-racial, as seen by both candidates' pandering to La Raza and the NAACP.

Vic:

This is Victor Davis Hanson's worst article ever. See my previous comments for why.

Liberalism Is Fascism
What can I say?

Obviously I don't agree with you.

Really?
We're not "post" anything?

We're about to be Post-Bush, and that's going to be a great day for the entire world.

VDH makes a couple of good points.
First, he is correct that too many of our students gravitate to less academically rigorous fields such as law and business(MBA degrees), instead of pursuing studies in the hard sciences and in engineering.

Progress...innovation, technological prowess, inventions...will not be achieved by a nation churning out loads of law and mba graduates.

Rather, that nation will prosper which churns out superior engineers and scientists.

Second(and related to the first)is VDH's correct assessment that within our borders exists huge untapped energy sources, especially coal and natural gas.

Converting these materials, and others, to viable transportation fuels will require expertise in the sciences and in engineering.

Of course we need more nuclear plants.

Sometimes I disagree with VDH. I view him as too closely associated with the neocons on this war.

But here, with this article, VDH deserves a fine cigar.

my industry is booming
People are literally digging stuff out of their scrap heaps for my company to repair. I've been out of the plating and machining business for almost 20 years and only took a manual machinist job last year when I totally gave up on trucking. I've never seen anything like it. Heavy equipment and petroleum business' are scrounging for every last piece they can come by to bolster their flagging parts inventory. Any piece of mining or drilling equipment that can run, even half-@ssed, no matter how old - is ON THE JOB, working! And my company is swamped with anything that can be welded, chrome plated, ground or machined back to OEM specs.
Strictly anecdotal of course, but my wages aren't. I'm making 2 1/2 times what I did twenty years ago, doing the same job. Hmmm, imagine that? Back then I was told us old manual machinists were dinosaurs, a thing of the past....and the best part? I live 2.8 miles from work. I COULD ride a bike to work (Schwinn, not my Indian) but it's too damn hot for that. I'll drive my Caddie, AC blowing full blast and you envirowackos can't stop me....
Life has hardly been better right now, so you better believe I'm going to fight like heck to keep Oblama, McCain and Congress from SCREWING IT UP!!!
By the way, the fastest and ONLY thing those idiots can do to bring down fuel prices, is to drop the drilling moratorium.
I garandamntee the price would be back down under $100 within weeks and probably around $50 to $70 within a year. Myself and lots of my family worked in the biz since the 20's, and I know a little about it.

POST KAISER STEEL

.....I remember when Kaiser Steel had a plant in Fortana, CA and an iron ore mine at Eagle Mountain, CA ...they went out of business in 1980 ...

.....In their heyday, during WWII, the government awarded Kaiser a shipbuilding contract for the war effort and within six months Kaiser was launching a ship a week ...it was manufacturing ablity of this calibre that overwhelmed Japan and Germany and won the war ...

.....Movie fans who saw Terminator II might have seen the final good-by of Kaisers Fortuna Plant .....COLOSSUS

No Likely Change
Hansen has hope - but not necessarily much basis for the hope that the US can get its act back together - as it were.

If most American children don't want to study engineering and science - then they won't. And the fact is they don't. If we had a plan today, it would still take 20 years before it would have much impact given we'd have to start with 14 year olds - or younger. But we don't. Similarly, there is nothing remotely on the horizon with either candidate that suggests that they are ready to tackle the simple fact that entitlement costs (SS, Medicare,Medicaid, Drug Entitlement) are far outstripping tax revenues. In the early 80's, Reagan tried, but 65% of Americans said no. And that number hasn't changed in 25 years. For this to happen, we need the number to be 50/50. And it won't go there unless we go broke - which is the more likely reality. Further, it's not getting better, it's getting worse. We have an uncontrolled influx of illegal immigrants which both candidates want to give amnesty to, in combination with the onset of Boomer retirement, and none of these people are likely to be willing to make any changes - unless forced. And politicians don't force - they pander.

There is virtually no liklihood, as a result, that America, trying to fight a two front war while this transpires, keep up the pretnese on entitlements, and fund every conceivable idea to benefit their voters under the sun, is going to reduce it's debt or deficits.

Mixed Feelings...
As usual, Hanson is brilliant.

I've often asked myself how a nation that seems to be moving to a state where people only perform sales, marketing, and management functions can continue.

I agree that engineers and scientists are important to the nation's growth. But I also have my own experience with this.

I majored in one of the hard sciences in college and went to work in a research lab after college. The tasks I performed varied between extraordinarily taxing to downright tedious, with little in the middle; they involved dangerous chemicals, rodent experimentation, and disease-infected tissue samples.

After a few years, I started to think about my future. I could a.) go law school, or b.) spend years trying to get a Ph.D., still not be able to get a position because I don't have a post-doc, have to spend another 3-5 years getting a post-doc, and then finally end up in another low-paying lab wading through dangerous materials, working with foreign Ph.D.s recruited from abroad who barely speak English, who don't have the undergradate student loan debt I do, for half of what I would be making in another profession. I realized I would only start earning a living wage when I was at least 33+ years old. When I was trying to make the decision, the senior scientists at my company actually encouraged me to leave the profession. Hence, I'm a patent lawyer.

American students aren't completely dumb, they're just going where the money is. If you want more native scientists and engineers in this country, you have to change the incentives.

We could be post-land of opportunity
LIF: I agree with many of your points. The demise of our "industrialism" (manufacturing) can be laid largely at the feet of the unions and unreasonable enviro regs.
However, I also agree with VDH that the ethos of the "refined" American is also at play. We're rife with MBA's and lawyers.

I also agree with YOU that the slide into socialism is not a reversible one, and that is why a triumvirate of Obama/Pelosi/Reid is scary. Even a four year reign will give us socialism that can't be undone by the mythical hero who will supposedly emerge in the conservative revolution that supposedly follows. No history anywhere bears that theory out. People do not by nature give up their "entitlements".

I think VDH's call for leadership is fine, but I don't think that one man (or woman) is enough.
One of the things that has always made America great is the influx of new blood (to offset the comfortable refinement of the rest). Hardworking immigrants, eager to maximize their stakes in this land of opportunity, and a government that will get out of their way--now that's the ticket to continuing prosperity.

Responses to the article

It's appalling that most of the responses here to VDH's think-piece are so gloomy. Here are the fruits of our last half-century's spoiled and permissive society; brought up solely on television and Dr Spock counseling.

Leading personalities now mostly descend from the Woodstock generation. Easy living, freedom to come and go without sacrifices; liberated women and drugs have destroyed the potential of parents. The newest parents have been raising sybarites and ignoramuses. It's nothing that can't be restored.

Who's going to restore it all? A better generation of parents is what we need now. The kind we usually had before TV addiction.

It's not so hard to understand. Parents have to resist the pull of sports telecasts and the athletic vainglory shown every day to kids. That's where the urge to spend money on crap is generated. Parents who cut that CABLE are the best hope now, for America's future.

We see scores of posts on this forum every week deploring the "billions" being lost on poor peons from another country.

While America's young spend billions on tattooes, beer, pornography and season tickets to every sports event. Yet the same kids have endless qualms about competing themselves, in the job market. (Forget about enlisting in the armed forces.) --IT'S SMART PARENTS WE NEED NOW !

Liberals
Must be STARVING FOR ATTENTION. Why else come to a Conservative Web Site and blather on endlessly.

roadmaster 8:37 AM EST
"I'm making 2 1/2 times what I did twenty years ago, doing the same job. Hmmm, imagine that?"

Yeah, but there's been 85% inflation over those twenty years, so you're really only making about one-third more than you were then. And you're 20 years older and doing the same job? That's like getting a raise of 1.5% after inflation every year.

Keep on driving that big Cadillac, though.

My question is...
why are you doing the same job for twenty years?

The Future....
is unknowable and the young are training themselves to prosper in that future where EVERYTHING

Swat Them Down
The cream does not rise to the top enough in Post-Excellence America. Take Mitt Romney, for example.

He is very smart, a genius at business, very articulate(rare for a Rebublican), a great family man, and smart(oops, already mentioned that).

So what happens. The 13th Century Branch of the Republican Party(Huckabee) teams up with the Mediocre Prima Donna Branch(John McCain) to stop the BEST candidate for president in 2008. Voter ignorance. McCain was pathetic in his envy of someone smart enough to make hundreds of millions. We are in the most trouble since the Carter years. The Usual Nominees aren't up to the many tasks at hand.

Sooner or later a crisis or a series of crises are going to overwhelm a Dukakis, Bush, Carter, Kerry, Obama, or McCain. Better start putting some of our superior people in key politcal offices or else.

Trial Lawyer's Rule
Can't everyone be a trail lawyer and give lavishly to the Dems so that the poooooor can have their advocates and get what's coming to them?

Cause unlike republicans, democrats care about everyone and everybody's pet cause. It is the evil uncaring republicans who want to starve the children, crap on the enviroment, protect the rich, drill in ANWR, drive their gas guzzlers, deport the illegal aliens, start a nuclear plant with Homer in charge, and attack the pious and pure Michelle.

BO has every right to be irate with the republican attack machine. Libs know that conservatives are not good and or honorable people but are here merely to leave a very regrettable carbon footprint!

Sorry, Dr. Hanson, but you're wrong
--
Says Dr. Hanson:

"But just as importantly, what Americans need now is leadership to get moving again...."


No.

God-DAMN it, but "leadership" is the *LAST* friggin' thing Americans need.

I respect the hell out of Dr. Hanson's qualifications as a historian, but his chops as a praxeologist ("praxis," human action per von Mises and the other economists of the Austrian school) are non-existent.

The problem isn't that Americans aren't being commanded sufficiently by "leaders," but that our goddamned governments - federal, state, and local - are crushing the life out of average Americans' ability to plan, to act, to build, to use their own minds and their own resources to create wealth for themselves, their families, and their communities.

The problem isn't so much incapacity at the narrow, elitist top - poor "leadership" - but suppression of the broad, productive, innovative bottom strata.

Which is where the market works, and where things actually get *DONE*.

We don't need "leadership."

We need government to get the hellangone out of the way.

Laissez faire. Laissez aller. Laissez passer.





=====
"All rational action is in the first place individual action. Only the individual thinks. Only the individual reasons. Only the individual acts."

-- Ludwig von Mises

Why ARE so many Americans overweight???
They do not have to perform manual labor.

That said, if you have a skill you are an asset. When I use the term skill I am referring to a trade that makes you a useful ( must have)member of society.

When my sons graduated from high school (98 & 00) I advised them to get 'blue collar' jobs THEN get degrees in the discipline of their choice. One is now an electrician and the other an overhead linesman. Both are completing their BS.

I would advise anyone to do the same with their sons and daughters.

Competent Leadership Needed
Look at the mess Nancy Pelosi has lead! She's led us into the ground since 2006. And the Democrats have the gall to claim they will get MORE seats in November? Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, Charles Schumer, Murtha the troop-hater, and all the rest of the Democrats in Congress should be ashamed of their leadership! People who actually voted for these people should be ashamed of their total lack of judgement voting, and deserve to be slapped! Their voters did a great disservice to America by sending them to Washington, D.C.

Right now, Nancy Pelosi controls our gasoline supply! The nitwit is actually proposing that we dip into a little of our strategic oil reserves. Her "solution" would help America for about 1/2 a day. Then what? Nothing!
These people actually think that we will wait, and wait, and wait, until we finally quit waiting and modify our behavior. They tell us that America is in a permanent recline? These idiots actually want to lower our standard of living; all to make the world "fair." Equal misery is what they want, unfortunately for us, their standard of living will remain "elite."


Sshhhhhhhhhhh! RoadMaster!
Don't be telling people you actually have money and are enjoying the fruits of your labor! Next thing you know, you'll have people talking about your "windfall profits" and decide you have way, way too much. Doggone it- you should share with the less-fortunate (who refuse to work). Where's your compassion?

Only on Vulcan can you "live long and prosper." In America, it isn't allowed anymore.


You Have hit the Nail on the Head!
America needs capable leadership, not a quasi-hollow messiah who is blind to lead the blind. What has Obama accomplished as senator?

Obama is of all things the eighth most wanted corrupt politician.

8. Senator Barack Obama (D-IL): A “Dishonorable Mention” last year, Senator Obama moves onto the “ten most wanted” list in 2007. In 2006, it was discovered that Obama was involved in a suspicious real estate deal with an indicted political fundraiser, Antoin “Tony” Rezko. Read more ...

http://www.judicialwatch.org/judicial-watch-announces-list- washington-s-ten-most-wanted-corrupt-politicians-2007

John McCain is no movie star, or any 6 million dollar man, but he is a real patriot, and an experienced leader, a man of honor.

This is what we need in our president and Vice president, men who have led and succeeded in the real world, built from real work of body, mind and spirit, while helping others to succeed and reap the benefits.

Mr. Hanson describes clearly America’s need is leaders who work and live according to correct principles.

God Bless the American people to recognize that “The answer belongs to the eyes that see them.” Stephen R. Covey, video “Leadership” and the book, “The 8th Habit”

SJ Doc
Good points. We forgot the individualism which grew this country to what it is today. We are so accustomed to a massive national government running things that we can no longer act as individuals.

More economics 101: All spending is local, which is why the uproar over earmarks is so phony. Earmarks are merely a symptom of the in-fighting that occurs annually over the federal budget.
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