Townhall.com, Where Your Opinion Counts
Talk Radio:   Bill Bennett   Mike Gallagher   Dennis Prager   Michael Medved   Hugh Hewitt   
BREAKING NEWS  LeftArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican   RightArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican  
Columns, funnies & more in your inbox!
  • Check the boxes and send us your email address to receveive your free newsletter
  • Your daily must-read of conservative columns, cartoons and news. Coulter, Sowell, Krauthammer and more.
  • Townhall.com’s weekly inside scoop on what’s happening behind the scenes in the world of politics. When news breaks, we report.
  • Signup to receive the latest daily Townhall cartoons
Thursday, July 10, 2008
Victor Davis Hanson :: Townhall.com Columnist
Barack W. Bush?
by Victor Davis Hanson
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
[+] Text [-]
 
Poll
Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


Almost everyone is talking about Barack Obama's flip-flops, as the Senate's most liberal member steadily moves to the political center and disowns firebrands like Rev. Jeremiah Wright and Father Michael Pfleger.

But less noticed is that Obama is not just deflating John McCain's efforts to hold him to his long liberal record, but also embracing much of the present agenda of an unpopular President Bush on a wide variety of fronts.

Take social issues. Obama is now a gun-rights advocate. Like Bush, he applauded the Supreme Court's overturning of a Washington, D.C., ordinance banning the possession of handguns.

The senator, also like Bush, supports the death penalty. He recently objected to the court's rejection of a state law that allowed for the execution of child rapists.

And although Obama is still pro-choice, he now, like the president, thinks "mental distress" should not justify late-term abortion.

In addition, the new Obama would like to continue -- and even expand -- Bush's controversial faith-based initiative program of involving churches in government anti-poverty programs.

In fact, Obama is sounding a lot these days like those red-state, small-town conservatives he once caricatured in his infamous comment about Pennsylvanians who "cling" to such hot-button, but extraneous, social causes.

Consider also the campaign trail. Like a Republican in good standing -- but unlike the maverick John McCain -- Obama has, by his sudden forgoing of public funds, rejected the idea of campaign-finance reform.

In fact, he's the largest raiser of private cash in American political history, and seems to have dropped opposition to accepting pernicious "special interest money." Like a Republican, he raises the most among the nation's wealthiest on Wall Street.

During the primaries, Obama seemed to advocate the dismantling of the North American Free Trade Agreement. But now candidate Obama has little desire to overturn the present Bush trade policies.

On foreign policy and the war against terror, Obama once leaned left in his primary battles against Hillary Clinton. But his latest mutations move him once again closer to George Bush.

For all his prior talk of the loss of civil liberties, a President Obama, like a President Bush, would give telecommunication companies exemption from lawsuits over tapping private phone calls at government request.

Obama wants to continue Bush's successful multilateral efforts to fight the Taliban in Afghanistan, and now praises the Bush-inspired six-party talks with North Korea that led to the apparent dismantling of Pyongyang's nuclear program. Like Bush, he advocated expanding the military after the Clinton-era troop cuts. Obama once advocated lifting the embargo against Cuba -- but no longer. Like Bush, he thinks that it is wise to leave it be.

There is suddenly not much difference when it comes to the Middle East, either. Palestinian supporters were dismayed to hear Obama promise that Jerusalem must be Israel's eternal and undivided capital.

Obama once criticized Bush for his unwillingness to meet directly with Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and exaggerating the danger from Iran, which supposedly didn't "pose any serious threat." Lately though, he agrees with the president that Iran now in fact is a "grave threat."

Obama's most serious about-face is on Iraq. He once promised a rigid and rapid timetable for withdrawing our troops. But given the radical success of Gen. David Petraeus' surge and change in tactics, Obama is now calling for withdrawals to be based on the conditions on the ground in Iraq. How different is this plan from the present administration's policy of incrementally sending home brigades as Petraeus hands off security responsibilities to Iraqis in additional provinces?

It makes political sense that Obama is moving to the center since he knows that a Northern liberal like himself has not won a presidential election since 1960. So don't expect Obama's metamorphosis to stop now. Before this campaign is over, he may well flip some more; would anybody be surprised if he starts supporting some of Bush's proposal for expanded domestic oil drilling or backtracks on raising trillions in new payroll taxes?

In fact, replace George Bush's Texas twang, cowboy strut and evangelical Bible thumping with Barack Obama's mellifluous "hope and change" rhetoric, easy grace and leftwing Christianity and we may discover a flashy new cover to an old book.

A final question: If, even as Obama trashes Bush, he seems to agree with him on so many fronts, why don't conservatives and Republicans adopt Obama as a welcome convert?

Some may, but most I’ve talked with don't think Obama is sincere and feel he will flip back to being left wing if elected. Or they think that Obama is changing so fast and so radically that it’s hard to believe he really knows who he is -- or would be as president.

Share:
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
 
About The Author
Victor Davis Hanson is a classicist and historian at the Hoover Institution, Stanford University, and a recipient of the 2007 National Humanities Medal.

Be the first to read Victor Davis Hanson's column. Sign up today and receive Townhall.com delivered each morning to your inbox.

Brilliant
Let's see the lw try to dispute Hanson! What he says is so true.

I am sure he will go left again, but it is fun to see him make himself into a Bush clone.

My daughter fancies herself a liberal, and I will have to point this article out to her. She despises Obama, but she holds fast to him because he is the only port in this storm.

I enjoy his acrobatics in trying to please everybody. Obviously he did not learn that when you try to please everyone, you eventually fail.

But Before He Flops back...
...let Pubs make the point that he is simultaneously Carter's 2nd terms and Bush's third.

Quite a gymnist, that Barack. This is too much fun.

Of course, we know exactly what he would be as president. Whatever a Dem Congress will force him to be. He is putty in their hands.

And like Bush
Obama will never find a spending bill he doesn't like, including the pork.

speaking of flip flops
Did anyone notice that Bush flip flopped and signed on with the G8 nations to reduce C02 emissions by 50% BY 2050. Talk about a turn around, long overdue but it is indeed refreshing. Big time Flip Flop!

OBAMA ON EMPTY
********* DRILL - DRILL - DRILL *******

*********** WIN - WIN - WIN *************

SCENE: DadBird is at the frige leaning in pulling out an ole brewksi

ENTER: Junior wearing low cut dungarees.
"Dad - Hot date tonight with Sally
Can I borrow the wheels?"

"Sure son - pay me twenty dollar to top off the tank and the car is all yours."

Barack "Barry" Hussain bin O'BoomBox has the youth vote sewed up THEY SAY until the youths have to top off the tank.

No car means no hot date with Sally - you're stuck at home cruising porn channels on the net.

Obama KiddyVoters - if you can't vote your pocketbook - vote your gastank!


Obama is pandering no change of stripes
Obama is not moving to the right. He is just saying what he thinks will get those who are disappointed that John McCain is the Republican nominee to vote for him.

Don’t be fooled people. He won’t move from his Marxist mentors who spawn him on his political career. He will impose socialism on us all starting with raising all our taxes, socializing health, and dictating to business. He will make horrendous blunders on the international scene and put the U.S. further back than the Jimmy Carter did. American diplomats and ordinary citizens won’t be safe in other countries.

No he is still the most leftist guy in congress and will be that way if he ever makes it to the White House.

Obama is pandering no change in stripes
Obama is not moving to the right. He is just saying what he thinks will get those who are disappointed that John McCain is the Republican nominee to vote for him.

Don’t be fooled people. He won’t move from his Marxist mentors who spawn him on his political career. He will impose socialism on us all starting with raising all our taxes, socializing health, and dictating to business. He will make horrendous blunders on the international scene and put the U.S. further back than the Jimmy Carter did. American diplomats and ordinary citizens won’t be safe in other countries.

No he is still the most leftist guy in congress and will be that way if he ever makes it to the White House.

hahaha
This is funny. In their attempts to smear Obama, the righties are trying to pin him to Bush! Hahahaha. That's right. Throw Bush under the bus to prop up McCain. Hahaha. I guess desperation creates strange mindsets. Keep up the good work Hanson! Hahahaha.

Actually, it's a smart idea. Bush has been the most unpopular president in history because of his many mistakes, so why not do anything you can to pin your opponent to him? Obama's doing it to McCain, so why not the opposite?

The righties were trying to pin Obama to Carter, but Bush has far surpassed Carter in stupidity, so Bush is now the target. Haha, I love it!!

Oback and the Illusion of Flips and Flop
Because I have been educated in the halls of the Ivy League and because I am a true 20th century liberal, you should know that truth to me has a relative quality. With respect to the issues in this campaign the truth is, of course, relative to my ability to get elected. So to those who have the primative view of truth being absolute, it would seem that my positions have shifted when in fact they have remained bedrock "true" to the anchor of my electability. These complaints of flips and flops are evidence of the intellectual bankruptcy of the neanderthal political right and it would be laughable if it weren't so pathetic. My presidency will bring hope, change and a clearer view of truth to our great country.

I'm Oback Arama and I'm running for president.

http://obackarama.blogtownhall.com/
http://www.obackaramablog.com/

Goes to Show You
This goes to show that George W. Bush accomplished the same thing Harry S. Truman did. Namely committed the country to a course of action that we may abandon at our own peril.

Obama cannot afford to be known as the man who lost the war. So he now has to go and anger the moonbats and hope their anger will not cost him the election.

So when it comes to the war, Obama equals Bush III (lite) and McCain equals Bush III (full flavor).

As a result, neither Fancy Nancy in the House nor Hapless Harry in the Senate will be able to
utilize their anticipated majorities like a Sam Rayburn and Lyndon Johnson could. Look for some corrective actions on the domestic front.

Looks like Somebody's plan is coming together.

Overload.....Art, Colorado
For 84 years I have used my brain for it's indended purpose, THINK ! When I listen to Obama and attempt to make sense about what he is saying, my brain goes on overload with all the stupidity of his statements, blows a fuse and shuts down.
What is really scary is that in the most powerful country in the free world this is the best talent we are able to offer as our leader. Not only that, this idiot tells us he is going to "Restore Confidence" again with the the rest of the world. I am sure countries working toward our decline will be Confident we are on the right track and moving in the right direction with Obama. I believe there are enough good people in this country who are using their brain for it's intended purpose, We must do whatever it takes to derail this runaway train to self destruction.

Flip Flopping Obama
I would find it refreshing if one of the candidates, preferably McCain, would stand up and LOUDLY and FIRMLY state that he believes in truth, justice, and the American way and if immigrants legal or illegal don't like the American way then too bad,which has nothing to do with tap dancing around the issues afraid that someone might be offended or making sure that every thing is politically correct which is why we're in the mess we're in now! I'd like to get back to basics and hear a candidate firmly and loudly speak out for morality, principles, values, closed borders, economic changes, the Ten Commandments, the Bible, the Judeo-Christians, the traditional marriage; and for teaching kids to say "no" so they don't have to make adult choices before they're old enough to vote!

Hanson has nailed it.
The strategy: Align with Bush's positions to appear 'presidential' while toning down policy differences versus McCain. November then becomes a popularity contest. And who's got the 'charisma'?
McCain better wake up soon.

Obama

This man is as immature as a teenager trying to decide who he is and what he believes in, and has not decided exactly what path he wants to follow! And we need this indecision in the leader of our country? A mature individual knows what he believes, will not "blow with the wind", and will stand tall and take the heat when questioned about them. Our choice is clear: inexperience or competance through the heat of battle.

What Does It Say
about a person's principles if he/she is willing to appear to abandon them in order to hopefully achieve election to our highest office? The assesment that Yo-bama has to "run to the center" tells us that getting elected is more important to him than fidelity to his core beliefs. It's like the wild west snake oil salesmen. They spun an almost hypnotic spiel, but when you bought a bottle, you never really knew what was inside. In this instance, I think we all ought to seriously consider the ingredients in that bottle and whether or not they are as advertised.

Call His Bluff!
Beginning with the faith-based initiatives, Republicans in both houses need to offer legislation that will make them put up or shut up. When the Democrats refuse to let it come to the floor, take it to the streets. Demand Obama answer for Congressional inaction. Show it up to be political posturing. "Change even He can't believe in"

To Obama: Thanks for the needed smile.

Sen. John McCain said Wednesday that Iran's missile test shows the need for an effective missile defense system, while rival Sen. Barack Obama said it shows aggressive diplomacy, combined with sanctions, is necessary. (CNN). Each time I watched this yesterday it always made me smile because since 2003 I can’t count how many times President Bush has repeated himself saying that; only Obama has added the word AGRESSIVE and now all the Bush bashers and anti-war critics are voting for Obama? While these critics would get what they deserve with Obama’s election; our nation as a whole does not!

It's Not Just The Candidate...
One thing to remember--it's not just the candidate that matters. The staff that they would appoint also matters. With all of the left-wing associates in his past, and the party elders currently supporting him, I have no doubt that Obama would choose the type of people that wouldn't even consider executing the centrist policies that he's currently espousing.

Red Wolverine
That's pretty much what's happening right now, with energy policy. As fast as Republicans and "Blue Dog" Democrats come up with energy bills that would actually have a chance of producing energy (domestic oil exploration/exploitation, nuclear power, limiting environmental groups' ability to paralyze new development with unending lawsuits), Pelosi and Reid make sure that the bills are never discharged, i.e. brought to the floor for actual debate and vote. Even the No More Excuses Energy Act now looks as if it will die in committee, pleasing the "progressives" and their neo-Luddite "environmentalist" friends, and leaving the rest of America to freeze in the dark.

And so far, everyone in the DNC and MSM is blaming the Republicans, and getting away with it. Not least because according to a recent Gallup poll, 40% of respondents think the GOP still has the majority in both houses of Congress.

As it stands now, intransigence and fantasy-based policy-making on the Democrats' side has no down side for them. And certainly not for the Obamessiah.


clear ether

eon

Welll
VDH is correct again. IT will go back to Socialist tendency if elected. Sickening to think that people really believe this guy.

Barack W. Bush?
As soon as we see someone throw his hat in the ring we should turn off the volume . Because the only way to know what that person really believes is to look at the sum of their record BEFORE they announced. Everything said afterwards is just said to get elected and we know they will do and say anything, pandering to any and every group.
I am hoping that much of what McCain has said are empty campaign promises that he won't really pursue.
With the internet and some good investigative journalists we can find out who these people really are without having to listen to one of their stump speeches.

B. Hussein O'Bush . . .???

. . . we should be so lucky!

O'Stalin, O'Lenin, O'Mao-See-Dung, O'Hitler, O'Mau-Mau . . .

. . . 'nuff said -- ya'll "get it!"

Jana Martin
Oklahoma City, OK

LibMedia Screens
this spray-painted turd.

They whine about Vets for Freedom buying air time for McVanity yet IGNORE THIS about Husseini Oboytoy.

FEC-required filings show SEIU's two PACs spent over $9 million dollars supporting Obama by the end of May. The money went for such things as:

-$126,000 to the SEIU United Healthcare Workers as reimbursement for "Staff salaries, per diem & expenses"

-$700,000 to pay the union's own General Fund for "staff and expense" of door-to-door canvassing of voters for Obama in Pennsylvania

-$300,000 for the same in Ohio

-$165,000 to the General Fund for get out the vote (GOTV) canvassing in Wisconsin

-$161,000+ to SEIU for further canvassing and "voter ID/"registration in Pennsylvania

-almost $40,000 for printing the materials to be used in the canvass

-$84,000+ to the SEIU Communications Center for phone bank activity to identify and register Obama voters in Pennsylvania

-$150,000 for a similar expenditure in Indiana

-External expenditures for similar phone banks for Montana and for GOTV and "persuasion" in Texas

-The above-mentioned "election day rally bus rental" for the Pennsylvania primary in the amount of $1,450

-$310.56 to a New York eatery for food expenses for the same Pennsylvania election day rally

Vasquez: "I just need to know where they are."

Sarge: "Who, the aliens?"

Vasquez: "NO, the liberals!"

Tactics
This is the Chuck Schumer tactic to win elections. The Liberal candidate takes the center-right position to get elected. The extreme Communist Left (Schumer's posse) knows the tactic ( it was the same approach used to win in 2006) but acts displeased. The act is designed to make the Centrist in America believe Obama's "faked lying position" by giving it credibility in the MSM and the major TV networks. The Centrist think, "Obama must be changing his positions because his donors are apparently upset". It is all a sham orchestrated by the Most Dangerous Communist Democrat in the nation, Chuch Schumer.

Flop Flops
The whole topic is nothing more than media fodder. Just fill up space in the newspaper and fill broadcast minutes. Might as well criticize him for smoking or for his big floppy ears, except that everything about The Obamessiah appears to be "out of bounds" for discussion.

Here are two clues:

1. Conservatives don't care what he says now because it is obvious that The Obamessiah is nothing more than a Marxist "community organizer" who can't make known his actual position on any issue.

2. The moonbat America-hating commieRAT left and their accomplices in the enemedia don't care what he says now because they know that he is actually a Marxist "community organizer" who can't make known his actual positions on any issue. But they know what he really wants to do to America...

Huge Difference
That difference is Obama steps up and matches his actions with his words i.e. the medicare vote yesterday.

Obama said he supports the troops and voted to support them. Ted Kennedy in a profile in courage moment supported the troops.

The military family, military active duty, Guard, Reserve, retirees and their families, are alll covered by insurance called Tricare. Tricare payments are based upon Medicare payments and already in some areas military families are being denied healthcare access to both military and civilian doctors. Military doctors because the Bush Regime continues to dismantle military healthcare and on the civilian side because Tricare payments are too low, so docs are refusing to take new patients.

In a true profile in cowardice moment, McCain, who said he was against the bill, refused to be present for the vote. My own Republican Senator Snarlin Arlen, one of the best vote counters in the Senate, saw Ted kennedy and was one of the nine Republicans scurrying to change their vote and support military families. Now Bush the torturer says he will veto the bill - figures

They are not Flip / Flops
He is simply and empty vesel with no core values, who obediently says what his handlers are telling him.

I have something to sell...
I have a bridge I'd like to sell to anyone who believes this slick, hack political fraud from Illinois.

Barrack vs Bush
It's obvious as we watch this election unfold; BHO is going to do whatever it takes to win and J. McCain is content to sit on the sideleines and watch his opponent sprint to the finish line. It's too bad that we've allowed our political system to be degraded to this; lies, half truths, and just outright cover ups. I guess everything that happens in the past has no bearing on today, so, why would anyone think BHO is going to change. It just seems like somebody has come up with some good old fashioned snake oil to heal what ills you!

I would say this proves
that this is still a conservative nation.

Is It Brilliant To Be Deceitful...?
The democrats thought it was with the clintons and now the same idiots are not able to see through this lying S..O..S. This anti-American racist islamist sypathizer wouldn't know "principles" or "ethics" if his bitter, America-hating wife smacked him over the head with some.
If he is elected, watch him swing way back where he comes from..to the extreme left..and watch the White House fill up with the vile human flotsam that this creep has surrounded himself with all his life (except for the past few weeks, when he dispatched his mentors to parts unknown)
Sad, very sad.

Hal
I know we rarely agree on anything but your post regarding Tricare has some merit. Many doctors refuse to accept it because payments are low.

McCain is the trojan horse
What was McCain's position on the new GI bill? He was against it. 58 Senators co-sponsored it including many prominent Republicans like John Warner, but not McCain. He took the White House's position instead of the vets. He showed no leadership and in the end when it was passes it was inspite of not because of GWB.

On the Medicare Bill, McCain opposed it but not not have the balls to cast a vote. McCain has flipped and flopped more than any candidate in modern history, not simply piviting to the right but changing his core principles on so many issues. The John McCain of 2008 is virtaully unrecognizable from the John McCain of 2000 or 2004.

John McCain is running on his war record not his record in Congress which is troubling to both Conservatives and to Independents although for sometimes opposite reasons.

It is really hard to know what a McCain presidency would be like and how the pressures of the job will mix with his hot temper in times of crisis.

For someone who is a conservative there are no good choices here and it is reasonable to ask how did we get here?

As to Obama and Bush. You could take almost any candidate and come up with a list of alignments. Anyway what did in GWB was not his policies but his leadership. Even on the war had it been conducted competently there would have been a lot more support.




Mr.Hanson
Those of us who know you as the "Racist" that you are, have never known you to be "Crazy".However,I would suppose, that this election has driven you over the edge.Hate will do that to you!Mr. Obama a "Politician" and lawyer is shrewd enough to know, that events will render Mr. Bush's prior position untenable.One of the reasons,that I have decided to leave the republican party, is that it now rest in the hands of "Fools".This is now a party that is unable to defeat a first term junior Senator.No vision,no new ideas,with no grasp of this nation and it's challenges.I can outline for you how easily Mr. Obama will able to "Stepaway" from each newly assumed position.Conservatives are leaving the party by large numbers,because 8 years ago the leadership stopped listening.Well you have what you wanted,so stop "Whinning".Where is Newt?

Playing Liberals For Fools
Obama saw an opening and he seized it. He knew the obvious vulnerability Hillary had on the Left. The Netroots, Hollywood and Wall St billionaire radicials, and activists were upset with Hillary's lurch right (towards the Middle). Obama in 2005 made sure that he voted as far left on Senate bills (when he was present), and took very public Marxists stands on everything else- especially the Iraq War. His mantle piece, an immediate withdrawl, attracted throngs of radicals to his side. When coupled with his rhetorical skills, he quickly captured the heart and soul of today's radical Democrats. But most importantly, he captured the money- something the Clinton's prided themselves in. Today, Obama has amassed a $600 million war chest. Obama's insurgency read the tea leaves correctly (the Democrats are now the party not of FDR or JFK, but Goerge Soros and Koz).

It's is almost breathtaking to watch Obama sprint (a very long sprint) to the Middle. Hansen is wrong however. Obama is staking out not Bush's stances, but Hillary's stances. He may eventually end up there, but for now Obama's "centrists" stances are really the Progressive stances on the issue (which, BTW both Bush and McCain share to a large degree).

Obama has crossed the Rubicon in that there is no going back to the Far Left. Once you campaign as a "Centrist", the electorate demands that you govern as one. Obama will find himself in the same position that Bill did in 1993; if he does attempt to enact a Far Left agenda, he will now only endanger his own administration, but the Dems lock on Congress.

Obama's con game (or bait and switch)played the Far Left as suckers.

Talon
"Date: Jul 10, 2008 - 9:05 AM EST Hal
I know we rarely agree on anything but your post regarding Tricare has some merit. Many doctors refuse to accept it because payments are low. "

Exactly and without this bill they would have gone even lower. The NEW Walter Reed that Bush just broke ground on is not yet 35% design complete and is nearing a BILLION dollars over budget for substandard hospital. It goes on and on the Republicans have only hurt the military family

Barack Hussein Obama
Hanson came close!!!

I'm no genius, but it amazes me that politicians and political pundits can stupify people.

Of course BHO - the most liberal, anti-America, pro-Africa socialist, Islamic-sympathizer, anti-military, etc. - sounds more and more like Bush while claiming that McCain will be the third installment of the Bush administration. The question is WHY!!!

Does he suddenly "see the light" and this is his latest conversion to reality? Is he simply trying to undermine and "steal the thunder" of McCain? Is all this just "a smoke screen" to "pull the wool over (peoples') eyes"?

The easy answer is this: He is tryiong to appeal to and "assure" those conservatives who neither like nor trust John McCain.

The "proof of the pudding" is the lack of criticism from the libs. Well, the Rev. Jackson DID say BHO is "talking down to black people ... I'd like to cut his b--ls off". The libs, incl lib press, KNOW what BHO is attempting and are "snickering up their sleeves".

Lordy, I got on a roll with all the cliches!

Obama Supports Infanticide
This is according to Jill Stanek:

"Barack Obama is so radically pro-abortion he supports infanticide, as evidenced by his active opposition to the Illinois Born Alive Infants Protection Act. This makes him further left than any U.S. senator and even NARAL."

It really doesn't matter what he says this week, Obama voted for infanticide when he opposed the Illinois Born Alive Infants Protection Act. No pro-lifer should be fooled into thinking that Obama has changed his position on abortion in general and late-term abortion specifically. No pro-lifer should vote for Obama.

Obama Supports Infanticide
This is according to Jill Stanek:

"Barack Obama is so radically pro-abortion he supports infanticide, as evidenced by his active opposition to the Illinois Born Alive Infants Protection Act. This makes him further left than any U.S. senator and even NARAL."

It really doesn't matter what he says this week, Obama voted for infanticide when he opposed the Illinois Born Alive Infants Protection Act. No pro-lifer should be fooled into thinking that Obama has changed his position on abortion in general and late-term abortion specifically. No pro-lifer should vote for Obama.

impressive column
This is a lengthy column from Hanson and yet he manages to get through without a single paragraph that is not designed to be misleading. One has to admire such consistency.

In paragraph one we get the canard that Obama is the most liberal senator, a title that clearly belongs to Bernie Sanders. Only the misinformed and dishonest claim otherwise.

Obama's position on gun rights hasn't changed. He said in the primaries that he thought the 2nd Amendment was an individual right. He continues to believe that there are some regulations consistent with that. There has been no change on that issue.

Similarly, Obama objected the the Supreme Courts telling states that murder can be a capital crime, but not child rape. That does not mean that he supports capital punishment in either case. This is the kind of distinction that conservatives pretend to take seriously except when it serves their purposes not to.

Obviously the column is too long to go through point by point. But most readers should have recognized that Obama said that the US should not be dictating policy on Jerusalem. That his new Iraq policy like his old is a 16 month time table. Only the details of how to carry it out will be revised in consultation with the military.

It is a good thing Hanson does not claim to be a historian. Oh wait he does. How sad.

Why believe Obama?
Why should anyone believe that Obama has changed his position on anything? He is a lifetime Socialist and will not change.

His move to the center is ineresting, however. His campaign must believe that he is vulnerable in spite of all the polls, and needs to make this move. He is not to be trusted.

JPK
The republican party is the "Sucker".The nominee is John McCain,barely a republican.Also,if I were you, I would familiarize myself with the legislative process and the powers of the executive.Many of those powers having come by way of President Bush's expansion of same.Mr.Obama has been the beneficiary of every political gift known to man.So called republicans have given this election away!!!WHY???

Bush is no conservative
When Bush was Governor of Texas, I watched him take many Democrat ideas and wrap them in "conservative" terms and get them passed. He's really more of a Democrat than a Republican, and always has been. It's not surprising that Obama would appropriate many of Bush's positions, since Bush took them from the Dems to begin with.

Take the faith-based initiatives as an example. I attended a church here in Texas that then-Governor Bush visited and touted as an example of what faith-based ministries should be. And he was right, the church did an outstandng job of meeting needs in the community...BUT WITHOUT A DIME OF GOVERNMENT MONEY. The members of the congregation give generously to fund the outreaches, and they give millions of dollars a year to the needy in their area.

True conservatives don't want the government redistributing wealth, through faith-based initiatives or any other way. Individuals should have the right to contribute as they see fit. The faith-based initiatives was a bad idea when Bush proposed it, and it's still a bad idea. What will be interesting is to watch how the liberals suddenly drop their opposition to it, now that it's not Bush's idea any more.

JPK makes a point
Obama master politician? Where's the change.

Come on libs. What is he for? Will we be in or out of Iraq?
Will faith based initiative mean vouchers finally?
Will he attempt to ban any weapon?
How much money should politicians be allowed to raise from Wall Street?
Is he closer to his voting record in the Senate or his rhetoric today.
Is he going to take away tax breaks for my family in the Bush tax scheme only to put them back.
Will he become more like Bush and grow a spine and stand up to the terrorists?

I lean toward McCain because
There is no threat to the thousand dollar a chil
per child tax break.
He will see the job through in Iraq. (No one really wants to stay.)
My right to own a gun will not change, Don't own one.
Obama appears not to care where the money comes from.
You may call his record in the Senate flip flopping in the Senate it is called compromise and Obama has shown little except rhetorically.

Obama won't change anything except his
mind, what he has of one. He's a 19th c. socialist and wants the US a socialist nation.

At the risk of taking blogging too seriously and not just posting emotional drivel and rants, I will mea culpa a post I made yesterday on Olly North’s warning Congress about bin Laden in 1987 and was called stupid by another obviously erudite poster.
I never claimed I watched the Iran-Contra hearings in 1987. I was in Egypt at the time, and they were not of maximum interest to the rest of the world. Ergo, I went online to find what I thought was affirmation of my assertion, but since discovered it was based on a fake email circulated years ago, of whose inauthenticity I was unaware and had no reason to dispute.
North warned of Libyan terrorists, not the al Qaeda leader in 1987. Mea culpa.
However, from Frontline, PBS (not a conservative source), for one, bin Laden was certainly known to the Saudis as a dissident to them from his position in Afghanistan working against the Russians in the 1980s. He was also a client of the US when fighting the USSR invasion was part of the Cold War.
The bin Ladens and Saudi royal family have had a long and close but convoluted relationship that includes a couple deaths of unresolved circumstance (1988 Texas plane crash for one) and an arrest warrant for Osama himself in 1993.
The US suspected Osama connections to the Twin Towers’ 1993 bombing, that fact surely implies the Clinton admin. and/or its intelligences were aware of bin Laden BEFORE 1993.
I’ll stand by my opinion that Sandy Berger stole Am. history by destroying National Archive material that had not been catalogued or copied, which itself is a matter of public and criminal record, and was not really punished for his crime, as any ordinary citizen who stole classified material and shredded it would be.


FOOD FOR THOUGHT

.....CHICK-A-DEE ...

.....I don't want to OD your feeble intellect with too much info but ...CO2 is not a pollutant, it is a natural gas and is beneficial to plant life ...

.....Hold on to your socks for this ...scientists in England filled a greenhouse with the percent of CO2 the Green/Whackos predict for the year 2050 and increased the crop yield by 10% ...

.....So you must be a Floraphobe ...you want to starve plantlife of a vital nutrient ...

.....BTW ...MIT professor Aldous Bungwacker is still seeking a Federal grant for his experiments into alternate fuel sources ...he was last reported to be working on a project that combined using the sweat from the testicles of Indian Bull elephants with an extract from sexually stimulated tse tse flies ...you can go to his web site Whack-a-bung.com for more info .....COLOSSUS

Standard
This is straight out of the liberal playbook: Fake up the middle, then run left. Obama will be running up the left sideline by Jan 21 next year.

Obama
I think Obama's biggest fear right now would be to be locked in a room with jesse Jackson and a razor blade.

Obama, Demagogue
Obama is practicing Demagoguery, which is "using the practices and rhetoric of a demagogue." "A Demagogue is A Leader" or Wannabe Leader, which is what Obama is, "who obtains power by means of impassioned Appeals to The Emotions and Prejudices of the Populace." (2nd college edition) of The American Heritage Dictionary.

Obama has a different speech for each audience he speaks to. If he speaks at a "pro-life" ralley, he is, Of Course, "Pro-Life" and will make impassioned speeches to them, celebrating the sanctity of life and the unborn fetus's right to live.

If he is speaking to a "Pro-Choice" crowd, he will even take on the personna of the "female" and speak of a "woman's" Right to be in charge of her body.

If he is in Reverend Wright's Church, He sweats, rants and raves and screams "Hallelujia" and "Amen Brother, tell it now" when The Good Right Reverend Preaches his Hate Speeches That Say "Hate Whitey", "Hate the U.S. and it's Institutions and Form of Government." and other such hate speeches and rhetoric. But, while Obama sat in Reverend Wright's church for 20 plus years with darling wifey, MIchelle, Obama was not acting. He truly Believes and Practices the ideas of Reverend Wright. He just has to "denounce Wright for the Moment, until he gets power" but he has not Stopped Believing in Rev. Wright or His message. Rev. Wright is just, for the moment, a hindrance to Obama publicly, but Obama has not abandoned Wright or his message. Wright is just for the moment an Inconvenient Truth for Obama.

The same goes for the rest of Obama's communist and leftist friends.

Obama has not in his heart and mind "moved to the Center" or become more Like Bush and Republicans. That is just his Rhetoric for Particular voters he is trying to attract.

Jerome Ennis, MAed in Tuscaloosa, Al

Obama, Demagoguery (cont.)
Obama, Flip-Flop Chameleon, who is practicing the particular Demagoguery for The particular Audience. Do Not Be Fooled. The Real Obama is his Background: Born a Muslim, raised a Muslim, life time of radicalization, involvements in Community Organizing for Communist Fronts, 20 plus years of Liberation Theology (Marxist Literature) and now 143 days as a U.S. Senator before he thinks he is ready To Conquer The U.S. Presidency. Case Closed: The man is Incompetent, is only Loyal To Communist and Subversive Organizations, and Is Very Dangerous. His puppet masters can get him to do and say anything they post on a teleprompter. His public comments now are being manipulated to suit whichever audience he is trying to hustle into voting for him. If he were to gain power, he would Return To His True Convictions of Marxism and Islam. Claiming them now is just An Inconvenient Truth.

Obama, Demagogue (cont.)
Obama is practicing Demagoguery, which is using the practices and rhetoric of a demagogue. A Demagogue is A Leader or Wannabe Leader, which is what Obama is, who obtains power by means of impassioned Appeals to The Emotions and Prejudices of the Populace. (2nd college edition) of The American Heritage Dictionary.

Obama has a different speech for each audience he speaks to.
Rev. Wright is just, for the moment, a hindrance to Obama publicly, but Obama has not abandoned Wright or his message. Wright is just for the moment an Inconvenient Truth for Obama.

The same goes for the rest of Obama's communist and leftist friends.

Obama has not in his heart and mind "moved to the Center" or become more Like Bush and Republicans. That is just his Rhetoric for Particular voters he is trying to attract.

The only people who might actually believe Obama are his igonorant followers, and even they, will not abandon him, because they are Voting For The Great Black Hope and Change Guy, but trust me, We Conservatives and educated Americans will not be fooled by this Chameleon . That is the Main Problem with Obama. He is Ignorant, and He is Arrogant, and He has no Convictions and he Has No Loyalties in public. I can not like a man or woman, but still have respect for them, if they have Convictions and Integrity. Obama has none of these qualities. He does not hesitate to Throw His Background and All the People who are and were part of his life Under The Bus, when they are an Inconvenient Truth. Obama will always be nothing more than a Chameleon, An Empty Suit and Puppet, who is Actually a Product And Is Being Controlled by His Puppeteers Behind The Scenes. These Puppetteers Are Very Dangerous People, and Obama, The Puppet, Is a Very Dangerous Candidate.

BARACK W. BUSH
BO is sprinting to the center, just like the Dhimmicrat play book requires.

If the "party of the people" couldn't snooker the voting public, the vast majority of Americans would reject them.

Pelosi even bragged about slating blue dog "moderates/conservatives" to win congress.
Those blue dogs have SINCE turned to yellow dogs, marching in lockstep with their party on the majority of issues.


Lon
"But most readers should have recognized that Obama said that the US should not be dictating policy on Jerusalem. That his new Iraq policy like his old is a 16 month time table. Only the details of how to carry it out will be revised in consultation with the military."

Lon, this is not what Obama or his campaign staff are now saying. In two recent speeches, Obama has stated that he will not do anything to upset the stabilization of Iraq. He also said he agrees with General Pretreous's time table of reducing the forces in Iraq by half, but leaving at least 60,000 soldiers (around 4 combat brigades) there for the long haul. There is no mention anymore of a 16 month time table, nor a complete pull-out of combat forces. This jives with what he told Iraqi's foreign minister late last month.

Obama is 'Hopiate' for the Masses

Obama takes a firm stand on whichever way the shifting political winds blow.

Obama believes his position has been and always will be, whatever is politically expedient.

Obama believes, he can no more abandon 'political expediency' than Obama can abandon the direction of 'shifting political winds'.

Obama believes that his 'convenient memory' allows him to change anything he has previously stated - this is the 'Change' Obama wants everyone to believe in.

Obama wants everyone to believe in 'Hope' that changes when Obama sees that 'Hope' needs to change with prevailing political winds.

The only absolute Obama has, is his lack of absolutes.

The only 'consistency' Obama has, is his lack of 'consistency'.

Democrats chant to the Obama absolutes "Yes We Can".

Barack O W Bush >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
As I read the posts I am being drawn to the conclusion alot of Democrats poss as Republicans here and utter pure jibberish.
Victor; I am glad to see that I am not alone in noticing the Democrats have patternd this yearsa campaign after Bushes 2000 & `04 stratagies of flip flopping every but truthfully. BO's response echo clearly the pure rhetoric of the current addministration.
The Only changes this candidate has over the current one, is Party colour and style.
He has no adgenda but to win and win at what ever cost it takes.

reni
"...I’ll stand by my opinion that Sandy Berger stole Am. history by destroying National Archive material that had not been catalogued or copied, which itself is a matter of public and criminal record, and was not really punished for his crime, as any ordinary citizen who stole classified material and shredded it would be."

LMAO yet you would ignore the felony convictions of Ollie North which the ACLU helped to get overtturned on technicalities. Amazing absolutely amazing your moral relativism is astonishing

Kevin:
You are right. It isn't that hard for Obama to seem as conservative as Bush because besides the social issues, Bush isn't that conservative. He (and congress) spends our money like it grows on trees.

A One-Party State
Obamarama is a liberal. Bushy is a liberal. McLame is a liberal. They're all in league with the growing army of parasites who are about to turn their helpless host, the United States Of America into a weak, helpless shell of its former self. If you believe any of Obamarama's 'rightward' moves you are truly a feeble-minded idiot. In fact thats exactly the type of voter that keeps the Dems in power; they believe the 'Conservative Democrat' mantra and then stand there whining when their taxes go through the ceiling. We need two political parties in this country--one to counteract the one which represents the bureaucrats, the time-servers, the chronically dependent, the snivelers, the double-dippers and the mentally challenged.A party against redistribution and centralization. A party that stands by its ideals and fights for what it believes in.Is it too late for this sorry mess of a nation?

Obama and Faith Initiatives
Obama will fund 'faith initiatives' like Fr. Pfleger, Rev. Jesse Jackson, Minister Farrakhan and all others that exhibit faith like Mentor Wright.

Does anyone really think that 'faith funds' will go to those who want a strong America and break citizens from dependencies.

Any 'faith based' group that is involved with spreading abortion, homosexuality, helping illegal aliens etc will get the funds.

Catholic charities, Evangelical charities unless it is political expedient will never see any funds.

BTW, Obama stated that any 'faith based' organization must use Federal Guidlines in hiring practises.

Regal Lion
"...It really doesn't matter what he says this week, Obama voted for infanticide when he opposed the Illinois Born Alive Infants Protection Act. "

Tell me about that bill did it pass? What were the circumstances etc

Amazed
I'm amazed by how many of the supposedly bright commenters here have been sucked in by the idea that Obama is some sort of moderate and not much different than Bush or McCain. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Two different approches
I think the Dems get together to plan their platform by breqking out their bomngs and smoking some weed. Then they flip through their playbook and choose some old bad ideas. Their idea of a camp;aign is to get their message out, iow cram it down America's throats.
Republicans are having important sucesses by carrying the banner for issues that well up from the populace. Immigration and gas prices are two important examples. There's Newt with his 400,000 of polling to find out what people support for his American tri party platform.
That is one reason why this election will be a landslide sweep, no matter what pundits say. They are just peddling the idea of a close contest to keep the ad revenues coming, imho.


JPK
I am not sure what your source is. Obama's recent speech on the topic can be found at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuBLRP-vH08&eurl=http://tal kingpointsmemo.com/archives/week_2008_06_29.php.

You will see there is a mention of the 16 months and how it was derived.

If you have some more recent source that contradicts it I would be happy to take a look.

Too funny
What's so funny is Obama is saying he has always held these views.
He must have had some master plan not to tell anyone. In fact he told everyone just the opposite. Seems even Michelle hie wife.
So he goes thru his little pitiful political career voting to the far, far left on every issue.
But now he tells us he may have voted that way but, those were not his true beliefs.
Just brilliant. I think his reasoning is: you can't shoot a moving target.
Just brilliant.

There is a theme here
Obama is for CHANGE.

The left needs to ask what will he change into should he get elected.

Religious based initiative for Christian schools?

Limited abortions? Parental responcibility and limited welfare?

Then You Should Vote For Him
Mr. Hanson, and most of the anti-Obama folks here at townhall voted for President Bush twice, so therefore if Obama fits that mold, you all should vote for him in the fall.

bigfred
"so therefore if Obama fits that mold, you all should vote for him in the fall."

That's the problem, the person Obama is now, won't be the same person in the fall.

We'll get the flop to his flip...

Unqualified to be president
And now the Democrats have as their presidential candidate a product of the South Chicago/Illinois political system, who along with his wife are arguably "black nationalists" that subscribe to Black Theology, a man tainted by questionable Muslim roots, whose only substantial professional background is as a college instructor, who would not be qualified to be the CEO of any medium size business in the United States, and who is changing the promises (the flip-flops to center) that were made in seeking the nomination now that he is the candidate.

No Break for Obama
You just won't give this guy a break. First he is assused of being the most liberal guy in congress when in fact if record in some issue like healthcare was the right of Hillary. Then when he takes the moderates positions he always said were necessary to change our political climate to one of bipartisonship. You accuse him of being a flip flopper.

He votes for Fisa and you call him unpatriotic. What would you say if he voted the other way.


Trojan Horse
Obama is a Trojan Horse. Once he gains power, the true nature of the man will emerge and he will destroy the country.

Charles
Believe anything you want, but you have no basis for you accusation that Obama is a trojan horse. In fact the opposite is true. What you see is what you get. As to runing this country, that sounds a little paranoid. Instead he will begin to fix the messes created by GWB. But maybe you think the Frat Boy did a great job in which case what most Americans will think of as fixing you would consider runing all the good work of the Bush Administration.

Otis
Obama is no Black Nationalist. That was the point of Rev. Jackson's inpolitic critique. As to qualification there is no better training ground the challenges one faces in Washington then Chicago Politics.

All you have to do is listen to the man to know he is sharp as a tack. McCain on the other hand has been all over the mad and his temper should be a concern to all of us. Yes, McCain's personal history is inspiring but his he really the right person for this time. I think not.

There comes a time when you need to put aside ideology and say who is the better person to lead this nation. I beleive Obama is that person.


JMO51
Bush cut taxes - Very good
Bush fought radical Islam - Very good
Bush eased up in Iraq - Bad
Bush created surge in Iraq - Good
Bush created Medicare drug benefit - Very bad
Congress spent too much - Very bad
Bush nominated two SC justices - Very good

On balance,the Bush administration was much better than either of his opponents would have been.

All the good things by Bush would be opposed by Obama. The bad things would be supported by Obama.

By the way, I love the way the left uses terms like "frat boy", but if we use equally prejudicial terms about Obama we are accused of being racist.

Obama was born and raised a Muslim. His entire life is mostly hidden. The fact that such a non-entity could rise to such prominence so quickly makes one wonder what forces are behind him. The risk is unacceptable.

OBAMA HAS A NON-LIBERAL VOTING RECORD???
Here is just a peek at the real Obama, as a state senator of Illinois:

"In 2003, Sen. Obama voted to raise the sales taxes on consumers by $59 million dollars, reinstate the state death tax that would have given grieving families a $45 million bill for new taxes, and force family farmers to shoulder $74 million in new higher taxes.

Sen. Obama also sought to tax life insurance so many families rely in Illinois in an attempt to raise $9 million for the state. Not even bankruptcy cases were sacred, as he hoped to get an additional $4 million by taxing them at a time when people and small businesses needed the most possible help. Sen. Obama wanted to go so far as to strip the rights of business owners to appeal unfair property tax valuations." - Americans for Prosperity Foundation

Obama
"Sharp as a tack?" Take away his teleprompter and he is a babbling idiot. He gets his clock cleaned in debates, which is why he avoids them. His best forum is reading a prepared speech at a church revival meeting.

"Enter The CHAMELEON"
NObama aka the Chameleon changes colors and beliefs as he travels the political landscape. No matter what color he says he is remember his record and policy statements prove he is, as Senator Joe Liberman correctly stated, a Marxist that wants to redistribute the wealth/income of the nation. I seem to remember the Marxist color was RED. What say yo NObama supporters.

charles
for some reason, some conservatives have decided obama can't speak without a telepromter.

now i could compare him to mccain whose new orleans speech has gone down as possibly one of the worst policitical speech in american history.

mccain uses 3 telepromters and still can't get it right.

most of obama's speeches are without teleprompter.

but lets wait for the proof.

you will be very shocked when mccain and obama are on stage together at the difference.

but keep believing and saying what you are saying because it lowers expectations.

besides when have you ever listened to any speech obama has made.

you are just parroting the latest talking points from the biased conservative media.

don't you think it is ironic that a few months ago conservatives claimed all obama could do was talk and now the argument has switched 180.

of course logic and facts are not strong suits of many conservatives.

Black Nationalist
One need only consider that Obama attended an extremist black nationalist church for 20 years, without objection, to assume that he is indeed a black nationalist. Case closed.

WHERE'S COULTER!!!???!!!
IT'S THURSDAY!! WHERE'S COULTER!!!???!!!

obama is unelectable


Obama kept up the pretense longer than anyone expected. But it's only July, his facade cracked during Hillary's primary megillahs; as she showed him up for a political eunuch.

Fascinating is the vitriol displayed by Jesse Jackson; suggesting he ought to be castrated. These are apparently random arguments only important to mean-spirited wanks. But he won't restore his credibility much between now and the Democrat convention. For Obama the country's sweetheart, this is becoming the thorough castration of a thousand cuts. "Good-by, my nuts, good-by!"

.

.

Charles
has it right: Obama has an average intellect and can't speak and think at the same time.

That's why Obama wants Americans to learn Spanish (instead of French, German or Italian, or Chinese).

He'll flop back to the far left if he gets elected. Remember that Bill Clinton ran as a "new" democrat, promising middle class tax cuts? Obama merely took a page from the "So you Wanna Be Prez?" Clinton playbook.

christianlib
Obama is an extraordinary speaker when he has a prepared speech, a teleprompter, and a supportive audience. But when faced with aggressive questioning (not usually tolerated), Obama gets a "deer-in-the-headlights" look.

McCain is not an inspirational speaker under any circumstances. But the content of his speeches is far superior to that of Obama. New Orleans was a classic example.

As far as insulting me personally when you can't beat my arguments, well that's just the typical liberal tactic and I won't stoop to that.

We are electing a leader, a person of integrity and judgment, not an orator. The most inspirational orator in history turned out to be history's greatest mass murderer.


Charles
Katrina, Valarie Plame, No WMD's, Soldiers with unarmoured Humvees, Walter Reed, Harriet Miers, NCLB, Poor oversight of Banking leadering to the housing bubble, politization of the justice department under Gonzalez. Letting the real enemy Osama slip away. Resurgency of the taliban. No exit strategy for Iraq.

Yea, Bush we wouldn't want Obama or McCain to ruin all that good work.

DavidMac
Obama - Harvard Law school tops in his class and made law review.

McCain bottom of his class at the Naval academy and got in with connections. (Dad was an admiral)


DavidMac
I agree with you, but think it minimizes the risk to compare Obama and Bill Clinton. Obama is light years further to the left. Bill Clinton might have governed from a moderate position except for Hillary. Possibly another parallel here, where Michelle is more outspoken abou her radical black nationalist positions.

JMO51
Katrina - a natural disaster, mismanaged by the state and local Democrats and exacerbated by a population dependent on the welfare state

Valarie Plame - a Democrat plot, much ado about nothing

No WMD's - does not mean they didn't exist previously, and besides, not the main reason for the war

Soldiers with unarmoured Humvees - vehicle was never intended as a tank. Why didn't Clinton administration improve weapons?

Walter Reed - a fine hospital, smeared by the liberal media

Harriet Miers - not the best, but we ended up with better

NCLB - a good program to demand accountability from the educational establishment, but the federal government should get out of education entirely

Poor oversight of Banking leadering to the housing bubble - Democrat pressure to provide home ownership for under-financed minorities was a big factor. "Red-lining" was there for a purpose.

politization of the justice department under Gonzalez - and this doesn't happen in every administration?

Letting the real enemy Osama slip away. - Clinton was offered his head on a silver platter

Resurgency of the taliban.- I would nuke them. Libs make us release the from Gitmo.

No exit strategy for Iraq. - the exit strategy is victory, not surrender per Obama

Bush Screwups Part II
Incoherant Immigration policy. Tax policies that actually encourage taking jobs abroad. Weakening of mining regulations leading the diasters in West Virginia. Hilliburton no bid contracts and war profiteering. Toxic FEMA trailors.

Stay tuned for Part III.

Charles
Define Victory in Iraq.

JMO51
"Obama is no Black Nationalist. That was the point of Rev. Jackson's inpolitic critique."

Rev Jackson was supposedly incensed due to BO blaming blacks instead of whitey.

In my opinion, the "impolitic critique" was contrived to make BO appear more mainstream. To make it even more convincing, Jesse Jr. "denounced" his dad.

It is not credible that a seasoned, media-manipulative, ultra-liberal like Jesse "forgot" he was in the studio of the "arch enemy," Fox News--- hot mike or no hot mike.

In any instance, this scam and the sprint to the center will not work. BO's radical liberal record speaks for itself.

JMO51
I won't bother with all of your additional complaints, but I am critical of Bush on immigration. The only solution is to provide heavy security on the borders and deport all illegal aliens. Ten to twenty million may take some time, but it can be done.

JMO51
Victory in Iraq is creating a climate where the Iraqi government can maintain stability and order.

Treason
Outting a CIA covert operative is treason. Proving it is difficult under the law, but giving up a CIA asset is treason none the less.

Can you imagine what YOU would be calling it if it had happened under Clinton.

Rumsfeld planned the mission knowing the resources and bear direct responsibility for the poor planning. That families on their own could raise money to upgrade the armour but the DOD under Rumsfeld could not cannot be something you can can attribute incorrectly to decisions of the Clinton Admin.

What happened under Gonzalez whet way beyond anything that happend in other administration and his inability to coherantly explain himself ultimately let to his resignation. There are lines that you don't cross and the Bush Administration frequently crossed them either out of ignorance, arrogance, or raw political power grapping.

There was plenty of Blame to go around for Katrina, but we have only one President and he was Bicycling while people in New Oreans were starving or dying of dehydration in the Superdome. From that moment on the president's approval rating been falling steadily.


charles
didn't mean to personally insult you.

looking back maybe my talking points comment was offensive, it is just that i have heard it repeated on conservative talk radio about 5 times in the past few days.
i sincerely apologise if you were offended.

i watched every debate and although he had his ups and downs as far as answers, he was still an impressive speaker so i am puzzled where you are getting that idea.

did you watch any of the dem debates?

charles
the iraqi government yesterday said we should either withdrawl immediately or set a timeline.

your conception of victory in iraq is sure ironic.

iraq was stable and orderly before we invaded.

so we have lost 4500 brave americans.
50000 wounded americans


for the purpose of getting back to where we began.

like most americans i do not think it was worth the cost.

Charles
So if that is victory and the surge is working why are we not leaving or planning to leave?

Or does stability require a permanent presence for US troops. My view is that the Surge is like a finger in the dyke. A costly one both in American Lives and US taxpayer dollars. The Bush administration has repeately overstated the progress towards that objective and frequently blamed the MSM for not telling about all the good news.

You can't have it both ways. Things are going badly so we must stay and things are going well and we must stay. By the way McCain has been out to lunch on the issue remember when he came back and talked about his lovely stroll down the Avenue in Bagdad? We can even get an real news from Iraq because reporters become targets.

Members of the Iraq government still need body guards and to work within a secure green zone. Every week there are still American Soldiers being killed, but in relative terms Iraq is safer. Only a dozen people vs hundred before are killed weekly.



charles location: pa


We see a lot of nonsense posted in the Toon Hall. Yours is exemplary for its false hopes.

" . . . but I am critical of Bush on immigration. The only solution is to provide heavy security on the borders and deport all illegal aliens. Ten to twenty million may take some time, but it can be done."

I disagree that Bush is at fault, if he was unable to unite Congress behind comprehensive immigration reform. Of course, it was because that plan included a rational form of amnesty. If you don't want to fix a problem, don't blame Bush.

Ten to twenty million illegal immigrants CAN'T be evacuated. No mtter how much "time" you have. The expense would be exhorbitant. it would end up hurting our economy. It would show us up to the world as inhuman, totally reprehensible and petty.

Forget about it; amnesty is inevitable. Blowing smoke about the problem is fool's talk.

/

JMO51
Valerie Plame was a Democrat operative, not a covert operative. The whole affair was a campaign stunt. She drove to work at the CIA every day. Besides, Bush had nothing to do with "outing" her.

The only criticism of the Bush administration in this affair was allowing her husband to perform any responsible task.

What's difficult about Iraq
Liberty the opportunity for a population to have democraticly elected government.

This is the single greatest achievement in that area of the world since the Egypt and Israel peace.

Charles
"Date: Jul 10, 2008 - 2:00 PM EST JMO51
Katrina ...exacerbated by a population dependent on the welfare state"

ZERO leadership and little assistance from a federal government to a devastated section of the country

"Valarie Plame - a Democrat plot, much ado about nothing"

A felony and a lie a perfect example of rightwing moral relativity

"No WMD's - does not mean they didn't exist previously, and besides, not the main reason for the war"

LMAO no one believes that except those with little education or the 20% =/- of true believers

"Soldiers with unarmoured Humvees - vehicle was never intended as a tank. Why didn't Clinton administration improve weapons?"

The Clinton Military conquered two countries in rapid fashion. Why didn't Bush reequipe them to meet new environments.


Charles2
"Walter Reed - a fine hospital, smeared by the liberal media"

a truth and a lie. Walter Reed care and personel were and are superb, outstanding etc BUT the last two generals put pleasing Rummie over taking care of the troops. As a patient their then and now, thank you media! There was no smear there was poor housing and attention to our wounded troops by support. All that has changed now

"Harriet Miers - not the best, but we ended up with better"

LMAO wow you are deaparate

"NCLB - a good program to demand accountability from the educational establishment, but the federal government should get out of education entirely"

LMAO translation we want to teach creation myth all the time and kill science teaching for good in the US

"Poor oversight of Banking leadering to the housing bubble - ... "Red-lining" was there for a purpose."

LMAO again and again. You are the gift that keeps on giving watch a heck of a lot of Bush 2004 campaign verbage claiming HE created the largest numbers of homeowners in history

"politization of the justice department under Gonzalez - and this doesn't happen in every administration?"

Actually no it does not this is a new low

"Letting the real enemy Osama slip away. - Clinton was offered his head on a silver platter"

And the Bush Regime didn't even bother to chase him but rather appeased him by leaving him alone

"Resurgency of the taliban.- I would nuke them. Libs make us release the from Gitmo."

yup a worthless chickenhawk for real and I bet he claims to be a "christian" too


dreadnaught
Build buses, hire bus drivers, drive to Mexican border, show them the gate. Their very presence here is criminal, so this treatment is not inhuman. Nobody forced or asked them to come. They have no right to stay.

Damage to the economy is a myth. People could get exercise by mowing their own lawns and washing their own cars. As for the rest of the jobs, put the unemployed to work and clear the welfare rolls.

Let's set an initial goal of one million and go from there. We can do it if we try.

JMOQ, Christianlib
JMOQ,
It is quite easy to prove if someone "outed" a covert agent. a)Said agent must be assigned a covert cover within 3 years of allegation. Plame was assigned niether to a covert job, nor was she covert. Her cover was blown by the Soviets in 1996 and she was sent stateside to work in the Nuclear Non-Proliferation's Branch of the CIA. In any event, it was Dick Armitage who confessed to leaking her name and job title to Novak. Armitage, if you remember, is no fan of Bush, and wasn't indicted by either the Justice Dept or Fitzgerald. Scooter Libbey was indicted on 10 coutns of perjury and obstruction, but was only convicted on 3 charges-his testimony conflicted with the late Tim Russert and Matthew Cooper on 3 seperate items of interest. Scooter Libbey lost his license to practice law for no other reason than giving testimony that differs from 2 media stars.

Christianlib,
you said, "iraq was stable and orderly before we invaded."

Under Saddam's rule:
1)Over 500,000 Iraqis were killed during the Iraqi invasion of Iran and subsequent 8 year war.
2)Suffered another 150,000 killed and 300,000 wounded during the 1991 Gulf War.
3)Over 75,000 public executions, public torture (Saddam's favorite: cutting out the tongues of dissidents) occured from 1981-2001
4)Destroyed the Shia marshlands and scattered the Shiite dissidents in 1991-1992
5)Maintained 2 prisons dedicated to jailing children of dissident families
6)Maintained a dozen rape centers dedicated to sexually torturing those women whom Saddam's sadistic sons and Baath officers found offensive
7)Used $25 billion slated for UN relief in the Oil for Food program to build palaces and weapon systems
8)Stock piled 500 tonnes of yellow cake Uranium for his WMD progam

Should I go on? So much for a stable and orderly nation.

Hal
I do not represent the Christian right in any respect. Where did I say anything about teaching creationism in schools? I just believe that education is best controlled at the local level.

DavidMac
You give an interesting explanation of why Obama wants people to learn Spanish instead of other languages. But if you look at the actual quote from Obama it is clear that he was saying that they should learn Spanish or another language, several of which he lists later in the quote.

Do you have an explanation of why he said what he actually said? I'm guessing that you get it to mean the same thing that you got from what you thought he said but didn't.

Charles
"Date: Jul 10, 2008 - 2:46 PM EST Subject: Hal
I do not represent the Christian right in any respect. Where did I say anything about teaching creationism in schools? I just believe that education is best controlled at the local level. "

We tried that which is why so much is at the federal level. States filled the schools with cronies took expensive trips etc while the roof on school houses leaked. CA is a perfect example went from hands down best in the nation when Reagan became governor to among the worse shortly after. Education needs to be revamped and redressed let's start but don't blame poor education on the Democrats the red south a good chunk of the worse

Allen
"..This is the single greatest achievement in that area of the world since the Egypt and Israel peace. "

it wasn't the Palistinians electing Hamas that was a free election. Iran has free elections

jpk
i was not saying iraq was a good place i was simply pointing out to charles that his requirement for victory was met before we invaded.

if we invaded every country that is run by a dictator and is a danger do we start by invading china or n. korea or iran.

Hal on education
Not to the point, boring, inaccurate. In PA, where you claim to be from, education is largely financed and controlled at the local level, despite the best efforts of Gov. Rendell and the Democrats to siphon off money from the rest of the state to support the corrupt administrators and teachers unions in Philadelphia.

Lon (@ reply # 106)
Obama emphasized the Spanish language in the context of being critical toward Americans who, in their own country, only speak English.

Yes, Lon, he mentioned other languages, but it seemed to me those were an afterthought. His speech was rather rambling and hesitant.

He was obviously pandering to Mexicans/Central Americans who have entered this country and only speak Spanish and who have been criticized by Americans for failing to learn English.

I've lived in 4 countries outside the USA and have always attempted to learn at least SOME of their language. I expect no less from our illegals.

Modified statement
Victory in Iraq is creating a climate where the Iraqi government can maintain stability and order (without the oppressive and threatening regime of Saddam Hussein).

All of our military personnel, including those in Iraq, are volunteers. They are free to leave the service at the conclusion of their enlistments if they disagree with the mission.

An unintended(?) side benefit of the Iraq war is that it attracted a large number of terrorists to a place where we could exterminate the vermin on foreign soil without exposing our civilian population.

Charles
"Date: Jul 10, 2008 - 3:09 PM EST Hal on education
Not to the point, boring, inaccurate. In PA, where you claim to be from, education is largely financed and controlled at the local level, despite the best efforts of Gov. Rendell and the Democrats to siphon off money from the rest of the state to support the corrupt administrators and teachers unions in Philadelphia. "

and the results are? Come on do tell...poor areas = poor schools in so many cases. And you forget that Rick Santorum whose family was living in VA was bilking his poor hometown school system in PA of tens of thousands of dollars. PA proves my point

JMO51
If Obama is so intelligent, why does he need a teleprompter? Unless he's making a speech he's memorized, he can't speak extemporaneously.

He's a socialist who's in favor of nationalizing the oil companies. Unless you feel that socialism is a more viable economic system than capitalism, that makes him stupid in my book.

Charles
"Date: Jul 10, 2008 - 3:17 PM EST Modified statement
Victory in Iraq is creating a climate where the Iraqi government can maintain stability and order (without the oppressive and threatening regime of Saddam Hussein)."

and they are saying go, you won if you want to say that...

"All of our military personnel, including those in Iraq, are volunteers. They are free to leave the service at the conclusion of their enlistments if they disagree with the mission."

Two things. They are professionals who love their country that gives you the right to abuse them"? Does it!!!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/hal-donahue/beautiful-bella_b _110709.html

"An unintended(?) side benefit of the Iraq war is that it attracted a large number of terrorists to a place where we could exterminate the vermin on foreign soil without exposing our civilian population. "

rubbish we serve as a training ground for them while appeasing their leadership and leaving them alone. Al Q in Iraq is a franchise of wannabes

Hal
Public schools in Pennsylvania (with the exception of Philadelphia) are generally very good to excellent. The education of Senator Santorum's children is irrelevant, but he was in compliance which allows payment for on-line home schooling. I would favor elimnating that program unless authorized at the local level.

Philadelphia, like many large cities, spends a relatively large amount per pupil for dismal results. You can only do so much with the students you have.

Hal
American's have shown they will put themselves on the line for the Iraqi people. That is the difference.

Muslims now know we will support liberty in fact not rhetoric.

Israel left Gaza to give the Palestinians their right and what have they be given in return?

Obama is NOT TRUSTWORTHY!!

!!!

Hal
I ignore the Huffington Post. Bitter whining by a former Republican whose husband left her for a man. Pathetic.

reply to charles, pa


I'd like to answer you very politely; point for point. You may reject what I say. But first think about it. Please--

"Build buses, hire bus drivers, drive to Mexican border, show them the gate."

Reply: --Charles-- That's what they're doing right now, today. We deport anybody caught on our side of the border. Have you considered what catching all 12 million already established here, in homes, with kids, owning cars, making daily purchases--and putting them all on "busses"--? MEANS?

I

2nd part, reply to charles
Conclusion:

What it means is diverting many billions of dollars to a virtual "deportation industry," paying for legal evictions, the various appeals stages (it has to be done by law) then the transport for those millions; with all costs for vehicles, fuel from distant parts of the U.S.; food and water, child care, medical provisions, and hiring of lawyers, drivers, security guards, --etc.,

Just so we can drop these folks at "the gate."

And in 8 or 10 months many of them are right back in our towns. Back in a new job. Presenting us with the same fait accompli once again.

Meanwhile-- as they were shipped away; the car loans they had go into default. Ten million repossessions! Their mortgages into default, any monies owed in the U.S. LOST; into default. Not hundreds of loans. MILLIONS of loans! Who collects them for our banks and loan companies; over the border? Nobody.

That is all money LOST. Picture our PRESENT mortgage crisis; and then multiply it by 6 or 7 million additional defaults; with their corresponding insurance polices, taxes, community utilities; all losing their @sses!

After you have answered these questions, Charles (not before) re-think what it is we REALLY can do. I mean, realistically. This isn't China, where the villages can drive whole families away into the snow with sticks and cudgels; or shoot people they dislike.



.



ChristianLib
You were the one who said that Iraq was a "stable" and "peacefull" nation. You also said,

"if we invaded every country that is run by a dictator and is a danger do we start by invading china or n. korea or iran."

First, Saddam was in violation of 14 UN Resolutions that mitigated the 1991 Cease Fire. A cease fire is just that: a cessation, not an end. Also, Saddam stockpiled 500 tons of Yellow Cake Uranium, which BTW we just finished disposing of. It took Iran only 7 years to come close to having nukes. In 2001, there were in the same boat as Saddam technology wise. Yesterday Iran successfully fired 9 medium range rockets that have the capacity to hit Isreal and Europe. Can you imagine what things would be like if Saddam was still around? Can you envision the Middle East with both Iran and Iraq having nuclear tipped missles?

People in the future will thank Bush for taking Saddam out, as well as blame him for not taking out Iran's nukes as well.

Allen
"Date: Jul 10, 2008 - 3:34 PM EST Subject: Hal
American's have shown they will put themselves on the line for the Iraqi people. That is the difference.

Muslims now know we will support liberty in fact not rhetoric."

Nonsense Americans put their lives on the line because that is their oath. We didn't go into Iraq for liberty and the world including the military know it. An fighting for liberty is like that old bumper sticker about fornicating for virginity

"Israel left Gaza to give the Palestinians their right and what have they be given in return? "

The Israeli reaped the rewards of years of animosity and their recent defeat in Lebanon.

Charles
{"Date: Jul 10, 2008 - 3:34 PM EST Subject: Hal
I ignore the Huffington Post. Bitter whining by a former Republican whose husband left her for a man. Pathetic. "

I wrote the blog not Arianna and the subject is real and a Pennsylvanian

Hal
You seem to be one who might think that the reason we went into Iraq because Bush lied about WMD.

To say our military supports the mission to Iraq, all volunteer military, is only to support their oath, are you implying they haven't thought it out when they've decided to put their lives on the line because Bush says so? They do not really believe it is a good cause?

Israel deserves to be attacked?

dreadnaught
Illegal aliens are criminals by definition. They deserve little or no consideration. Laws can be changed to reduce the complexity of deportation.

I understand that the process would be costly, but the long-term benefit would be worth the cost. Significant costs would be recovered through reduced prison populations, reduced medical costs, reduced welfare payments, lower crime, fewer drug dealers, fewer drive-by shootings, etc. The list is endless. Illegal immigrants are a net drain on the economy, not a benefit.

Naturally, we would need serious enforcement of illegal border crossings to prevent their return. This would need to be in place before mass deportations.

Not one cent of taxpayer money should go to lawyers, advocates, psychologists, caseworkers, etc.

Finally, I know this will never happen, but I can still dream of what might be and a better country.

DavidMac
I'm not sure what was particularly rambling about his remark. He was asked about people learning English in this country. Like you (and everyone else I know including myself) said it would be a good idea, and noted it would be not only be good if spanish speakers learned English, but also if Americans learned spanish. And then addes other languages which it would be good if Americans learned for dealing with the world.

I may not be the best advocate for this message. I lived in a pretty much entirely Mexican Immigrant neighborhood for 6 years without learning any Spanish. Fortunately the Mexican immigrants I interacted with had either learned English or were learning it well enough for us to get by. So even in the Mexican immigrant neighborhoods of Chicago they think that it is good to learn English.

there is no end to your naivete
Charles:

You ARE an adult, aren't you? It's pathetic to see how you cling to your non-starter of a remedy.

It's irrelevant WHAT you feel inside about illegal aliens. You can feel horrified, indignant, angry and all the other emotions. But emotions don't run a government. Half the country doesn't even share your draconian views to start with.

I'm forced to believe, by reading your lightweight editorial, that you aren't prepared to deal with any national problem. All you have the power to do is hate. If it comforts you to hate the illegal alien, go ahead.

It won't solve a thing. NONE of your high-sounding proposals is worth a nickel. I'm sorry. We are on course unavoidably, to granting a strictly limited form of amnesty in cases of illegal entry which qualify. Mind; that's IF we elect John McCain.

Under Obama even more lavish plans will be pushed upon us. Don't even THINK of voting for the Democrats!

Allen
"Date: Jul 10, 2008 - 4:18 PM EST Subject: Hal
You seem to be one who might think that the reason we went into Iraq because Bush lied about WMD."

Actually I am not one of those at all. I worked for Cheney et. al. when he was at DOD.

"To say our military supports the mission to Iraq, all volunteer military, is only to support their oath, are you implying they haven't thought it out when they've decided to put their lives on the line because Bush says so? They do not really believe it is a good cause?"

HUH? I served all over the globe. Did I agree with everything I was asked to do? nope. Not my job. My job was to defend the nation. Troops I talk to said they joined because of 9/11 and to get terrorists. To bad they went to Iraq instead but they still did an awesome job only to be abandoned in the desert when they accomplished their goal.

"Israel deserves to be attacked?"

My experiences in the ME have me saying a POX on both their houses. They are a US ally which receives I think more US funds than any other. They should be treated as what they are an ally. Certainly they should be treated no different than England another solid ally who gets little in US funds. When IRA terrorists were bombing the UK and this was during the Cold War IRA fundraisers were doing thier fundriasing in the US.

Charles
"Date: Jul 10, 2008 - 4:26 PM EST dreadnaught
Illegal aliens are criminals by definition. They deserve little or no consideration. Laws can be changed to reduce the complexity of deportation."

Stop right there! They are guilty of a crime similar, only not quite so serious, as jay walking. So you think all criminals like this should be abused and not treated? You folks yelling criminal really crack me up

dreadnaught
I believe I said that it could not happen. If you could see me, you would note tongue firmly planted in cheek. Lighten up.

However, I am serious in disputing any idea that illegal immigrants are necessary and/or beneficial to the economy. The argument that "Americans won't do this work" comes from businesses that want cheap labor. I'm willing to pay more for my vegetables and to push my own lawn mower. And I can wash my car by myself.

It is not a matter of hate, just dislike of people who defy the law.

Granting amnesty will encourage more illegal immigration.

As a practical matter, I would greatly tighten border security and provide penalties to those caught to prevent future attempts at illegal immigration. (Perhaps the Maricopa County jail with pink underwear and green bologna.)

For those in the country illegally, at the very least the following:

1. No path to citizenship ever, just permanent alien status.

2. Requirement to work as long as in the US. No welfare, SS, etc. Essentially a guest worker program. No work, go home.

3. Immediate deportation if convicted of any crime.

However, cheer up. I do agree with you about Obama.

Hal
If you equate illegal immigration with jaywalking, then we have little to talk about.

Really confused now
Hal how do you see the change from Hussein to a democracy affecting the region?

Seems a vast improvement from having a guy, S.Hussein, who hid behind his supposed chemical weapons and army so that he could throw sticks at Israel (support of suicide bombers).


The post-modern way...
"Long ago and far, far away- existed a time when men and women took their time and read books and reflected on what they believed and didn't believe. They lived quiet lives and minded their own business." "In those days people voted their conscience and/or their beliefs based upon the evidence they garnered from living their lives and taking their time to determine what was true and what was false." ----But its now 2008 and many people no longer reflect or take their time or investigate or read. They go by the 30 second sound bite. It matters not to them what a man HAS done, or how he HAS voted or how he HAS lived. Now its a matter of what did he say today? What is he promising me today? Like spoiled little children, a large part of the electorate looks to "feel" good. The truth of whether he will deliver is irrelevant. Just tell me what I want to hear! Post modernism is based on their being no real fixed truth either in reality (the world around us) or in an individuals veracity. This country is in trouble! Barack Obama is the first TRULY post modern politician. I know others lie or have lied, but fundamentally they acted in accordance with their beliefs. This guy is a master of the medium I have never seen and unfortunately a large part of the electorate is eating it up!

Policy confusion
Until president Bush the policy towards Iraq was very confused. Neither H.W. or Bill seemed to have a clear idea as to what to do.

Now the Iraqi people have a voice to determine the governments relations with their neighbors. Given the options which were available I'll rely on the peoples self interests.

It is important here to say that I accepted the general veiw, prior to the war, that Iraq was a model secular society for the region.

Charles
"Date: Jul 10, 2008 - 3:32 PM EST Hal
Public schools in Pennsylvania (with the exception of Philadelphia) are generally very good to excellent."

Oh nonsense if you believe that you have little desire for excellence. I suggest you study the numbers

":The education of Senator Santorum's children is irrelevant, but he was in compliance which allows payment for on-line home schooling. I would favor elimnating that program unless authorized at the local level."

You mentioned Rendell tit for tat

"Philadelphia, like many large cities, spends a relatively large amount per pupil for dismal results. You can only do so much with the students you have. "

Actually not true at all and the military is a great example of that. You come across as someone not concerned about improvement but want the status quo - are you a "seasoned" citizen?

Charles
"Date: Jul 10, 2008 - 5:04 PM EST Hal
If you equate illegal immigration with jaywalking, then we have little to talk about. "

That is a fact under law nothing to quibble about at all. Look at the legal code - the law compares illegal immigration to actually less than jay walking not me

HalD
Democrats now control both the House & Senate.

Democrats are responsible for creating our energy crisis.
http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/06/top_10_reasons_to_bl ame_democr_1.html

Democrats refuse to stop the Mexican Invasion.
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=51424

Democrats concocted the Agrarian Global Warming Hoax as a fictional crisis.

Democrats MANUFACTURE FICTIONAL atrocities to blame our troops for.
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=5509FEE E-FCFE-4926-8C62-AB8EA4B124FB

Democrats organize Communist groups to directly assist our enemy by hindering military recruitment.
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID={BF17F7 E4-09C6-4525-8358-CDA0EEBACE71}

What have the Democrats done that IS NOT INJURIOUS to America?

surprise!
everyone agrees w/ the lame author - I wish I could censor stuff I don't like out of my life, like republitard talking points that you spout. This column is incredibly banal.

MyOpine
"Democrats are responsible for creating our energy crisis."

LMAO nice try guy LMAO

DavidMac
Where do you get those lies. Firstly, Obama is an excellent spreaker he has been in dabates and at other forums in whuch he has spokenloquently in promptu situations. I find it amazing the any conservative would trot out this issue after we have had 8 years of GWB who can barely string a sentence together without a speech writer and who had delivered greats speeches with a teleprompter. That said just a lie about Obama.


Obama has never ever ever suggested that we nationalize the oil and gas companies. That is a lie.

He did propose a modest windfall profits tax and he did critize the Bush administration for giving tax breaks to an industry that clearly does not need one, You can object to the windfall profits tax, but to go from there to nationalizing the industry is absurd. Did you make this up, read it on some silly blog or hear it on talk radio.

You may well accuse him of being a devil worshipped or a wife beater.

Charles
That is not how the CIA saw it they were quite upset and were not gonna give your or me any more of the details. The CIA's position was that she was an agency asset. No one ever said Bush outted her. But clearly there is evidence that the VIce President's office and Karl Rove were involved. Bush said that if there were people in administration involved he would hold the parties accountable. So he admited this was a wrongful act, but when the trail led to imporatnt people in his administration he waffled. He commuted, He promosed an internal investigation that did not happen.

PS Libby's sentence was commuted to protect the VP and Rove who certainly would have been given up by Libby in exchange for a better deal.

I agree that Bush was not involved in outting her, but all roads lead to the VP.

Charles
Soldiers can leave after their enlistment is over, Wrong... It is called stop loss an infrequently historically invoked provision that is until GWB came into office.

JPK
So why was Fizgerald assigned to investigate an incident that was not an incident? Fitzgerald had said a number of time that outting Plame was a crime. He was simply not able to find enougn evidence to indict anyone. He was, however, able to convince a jury that Libby had lied to investigators.

How can you know she was not covert? The CIA says she was, were they lying?






jmo51
i enjoy your posts and appreciate the fact that you are civil and use logic and facts in your arguments.

i try to do the same.


Mr.Always "Flip Flop"
I posted my comment before and would like to do it again about this flip-floper. Trust him at your own risk and peril. Vote him down. This demagogue liked to preach his lies to idiots.

basta basta!
christian is too christian today;

JMO51 is nothing but a retard spouting leftist propaganda.

But it's a free country. Fools also have a voice.



Saren
Believe what you wish. Obama has certainly modeified some of his positions, but not as much as the Right Wing Press would have you believe. McCain on the other had has really transformed his policies on a lot of things from the positions he help in 2000 and 2004. The question for a lot of people is who will occupy the White House if McCain is elected. The darling of moderates who was offer the VP spot on the Kerry ticket to the luching to the right McCain furiously trying to mend fences with the Conservative Base and having policies that are virturally in lock step with the Bush Administration. I offer in evidnce extension of the GI Bill. 58 Senators co-sponsored it including John Warner and Chuck Hagel, but it was opposed by John McCain who was taking his lead from the White House. When the White House cut a deal McCain came along for the ride.

McCain was nominated as the trojan candidate the Non-Regular Republican in a year when the Republican brand is in the toliet.

But which McCain would occupy the White House? In other words for which group would McCain be the trojan horse. Conservatices or moderates and independents?

Still if I were a conservative I have to admit I would hold my nose and vote for him anyway.
As a moderate I don't trust McCain.


dreadnaught
Typical response when you corner some conservatives and challenge the silly answers that they learn on Fox News or Talk Radio.

The best evidence that I am winning the debate is when I start being called a troll or commie or whatever. And after all isn't townhall supposed to be about the debate not to be a mutual admiration society for ideological rhetoric.




come on dreadnaught
he is civil, doesn't insult people and tries to give factual responses.

so why do you call him names?

Barack W. Bush?
Good article, Victor, but don't fool yourself. Barack Obama is no George Bush. Obama is eloquent. Bush is not. Bush is a man of principle who's made mistakes. Obama is a slick Chicago-style politician who's only made promises.

Just as hard as Obama ran to the extreme left to gain the Democratic nomination, he is now running to the center to try and win the general election. In fact, he's doing such a job of it that, while many are still asking who Barack Obama is, he's recently giving us such whiplash on his changing positions that I wonder if that's what he really meant with all that "change" talk during the primaries.

He ran left to get nominated, now he's running to the center to get elected. But, if elected, he will go left again. One, because his party will require that he do so and, two, because at heart he is a black liberation Marxist. Other than that, we don't really know who he is -- and neither do his ardent supporters, really.

Note to dreamer in MN
You said, "Bush has been the most unpopular president in history because of his many mistakes..."

You need to check your political history. Or did you forget about, or not know about, Lincoln or Truman? Both extremely unpopular during their presidencies but now two of our most revered presidents.

You also said, "The righties were trying to pin Obama to Carter, but Bush has far surpassed Carter in stupidity..."

Oh, do you mean Jimmy "Hamas" Carter? Not even close. Look, I'm old enough that I voted for Carter, because he was from my home state, but he turned out to be the smartest man (a nuclear physicist, no less) and dumbest president ever -- and he hasn't gotten any better with age.

Chuck
No one know how history will judge any president. I beleive he will be judged badly for his decision to take the country into Iraq before finishing the job in Afganistan. Military historians will have a lot to say about how the war was executed and it won't have flattering conclusions but a lot of that will fall on Runsfeld. One interesting note will be the role of the VP in this administration. Historians will ask who was running things and with more information comming out I think we will discover that Chaney had his imprint on more things than we know now.

As to Barak Obama, there is absolutely no evidence that he is Black Liberation anything and that of course has nothing to do with Marxism. How curious that some conservatives consider anyone who is not as far right as themselves to be Socialists or Marxist.

So I again challenge them to define what makes Obama a socialist of a marxist. Based upon some criteria I have heard in the past 65% of the American public would be defined as Marxist or Socialist which would be a pretty big shock to them. Liberal does not mean marxist any more than Conservative means Facist.



BO IS NOT BO?
Here is the connection with his cousin, the Marxist/Muslim extremist: http://www.nysun.com/opinion/kenya-connection/69273/

Here is a quote from the guiding light (per Rev Wright) of the church he attended for 20 years and to which he donated over $27,000:

"There is no use for a God who loves white oppressors the same as oppressed blacks. We have had too much of white love, the love that tells blacks to turn the other cheek and go the second mile. What we need is the divine love as expressed in black power, which is the power of blacks to destroy their oppressors, here and now, by any MEANS at their disposal. Unless God is participating in this holy activity, we must reject God’s love." - James Cone

As an aside, the number 1 listed book at Akiba Bookstore (Africentric Theology) at TUCC.org (the church's website) is from Cone. Peruse a few other pages for your edification.

Here is THE racist statement "covertly" (he thought) delivered to SF liberals:

"And it's not surprising, then, they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who AREN'T LIKE THEM or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."

Here is part of his "stellar" record as an Illinois Senator: http://www.americansforprosperity.org/index.php?id=5103&st ate=il

"Facts are stubborn things." - John Adams

BHO
Barack has indicated he will continue Bush's policy towards Iraq.

If Bush's policy is wrong why continue. If McCain supported Bush continuation McCain is right.

BHO did not support not so good on this issue.

Vote McCain if voting on this issue most important.


patriotic
lets assume for the moment that trinity church is everything you think it is.

then you assume obama must be racist.

using your logic, orrin hatch, harry ried and mitt romney must be racist also.

the mormon church had institutionalized racism until 1978 and the church doctrine was that blacks were an inferior race and any mormon who married a black should be killed.

now hatch, reid and romney all attended this church for decades BEFORE church changed its racist policies.

so just like obama they did not leave a church that was racist and were taught (as children and young adults) by church orthodoxy that blacks were inferior.

now i do not believe that hatch, reid or romney is racist although they attended a racist church.

i believe the same about obama.


JMO51 - Valerie Plame
The fact is that nobody was ever charged with "outing" Valerie Plame, despite an extensive investigation. Richard Armitage admitted "outing" her, so one might conclude that Ms. Plame did not fit the legal definition of a covert agent, no matter how she presented herself.

Hal
What is your problem with public education?

I can say that the better school districts in Berks County, PA are easily better than the suburban New York school district that I attended. Students with good grades and test scores have no problem with admission to prestigious colleges.

Philadelphia is a rat hole that drags down the rest of the state in every respect, including education. Union teachers with no interest except survival teaching unmotivated losers.

My age is irrelevant, but you are as wrong about that comment as you are about everything else.

christian lib
Please do better than that. To make a connection when the LDS Church has not had the policy towards blacks since 1978.

I think you generally try to be fair. This is wrong.

christianlib
The tapes show the racist nature of Trinity UCC, not only the crackpot preacher, but the wildly cheering congregation.

I am not church member or an expert on LDS doctrine, but I believe you are grossly misstating the church position. The only "racist" position was that blacks were not eligible for the priesthood, nor were women. The church based this on the Bible and/or the Book of Mormon.

christianlib
By the way, why focus on Hatch, Romney, and Reid? There are many more Mormons in politics, both Republicans and Socialists. If you feel the way you do, how can you support your party choosing such an evil person as Senate leader?

Worse yet, how can a so-called Christian defame another Christian denomination in such a manner?

I'd be willing to bet that you think Muslims are fine, peaceful people, not murderous savages as you regard Mormons.

Give me a liberal
How does it logicaly follow that you can vote against McCain on the issue when Obama supports the same result?

Because Obama will get us out sooner? Will you believe that because he says so? Given the voting record and the rhetoric of the past year there really isn't a reason to.

Please do you think Obama has lost on the issue of Iraq?

charles
because they are the most prominent.

second, my point was if you claim obamas church made him racist than you have to logically assume that mormons who attended church prior to 1978 are also racist.

just using common conservative logic here.

what part of what i wrote about mormons is not fact.

you don't seem to do well with logic and facts.

i mean to claim someone is evil is pure emotion.

finally, as far as muslims, it is president george w. bush who says they are fine peaceful people.


allen
It's been a good week for Sen. Barack Obama. National security is the one area where his opponent, Sen. John McCain, holds an advantage in the polls. Yet on the two most contentious security issues—Iran and Iraq—Obama's views have now been endorsed by two of the most unassailably authoritative figures: the highest-ranking officer in the U.S. armed forces and the prime minister of Iraq.

http://www.slate.com/id/2195134/

christian lib
I refer you to the column "Have your yellow cake and eat it to"

Please tell me if you believe that your Congress was not fully honest. It's hard to believe that the leaders of Congress did not know of it's existence.

For Malaki, That is great. But you are still unwilling to give the credit for the new security and their ability to say we can possibly leave sooner to those who earned it.

How did Obama have a good week when it simply points out that O was wrong to begin with?

CHRISTIAN LIB
How about a little more research.

In 2004 (before reinvention), BO stated that
Reverend Wright was a "confidant" and Fr Pfleger was a "friend and advisor":

http://www.suntimes.com/news/falsani/726619,obamafalsani040 504.article

TUCC.org (see their website) has not changed one iota during the 20 years BO was a contributing member and still remains the same post-Barack. The Mormon Church has.

Your typical liberal argument about moral
equivalency doesn't stand up.


Christianlib
What is your source for the following:

"the church doctrine was that blacks were an inferior race and any mormon who married a black should be killed."

Particularly the killing part.

charles
here is the quote from brigham young

Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the while man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so. The nations of the earth have transgressed every law that God has given, they have changed the ordinances and broken every covenant made with the fathers, and they are like a hungry man that dreameth that he eateth, and he awaketh and behold he is empty.[1]

no patriotic
the point is that prior to mormon church changing, hatch et.al. attended the church for more than 20 years and if they are not racist because of it than neither is obama.

allen
without a democratic congress, rumsfeld would not have been fired and there would have been no surge.

second, mccain says he wants permanent bases and a long term prescence.

obama has said we could leave in 16 months and al-maliki says 2 years max.

the point is obama had it right and maccain has it wrong.


Hi Christian lib
Thanks for being here and standing in. I hope we are all after a seach for agreement.

Given Hatch was in the for twenty years prior and the church changed directions it may indicate he was an agent for change and did not desert at the first sign of political trouble.

Prior to the war the arguement was put forth that a large force would be seen as an occupying force. Why is that not a legit arguement for not having a large force to begin with? Why is it assumed that things had not changed on the ground to allow a surge?

What I would like to see as president and what I will be able to have are not the same. You allow for Obama to change don't you?

It has not been unreasonable to say a timetable is premature which has been the republican stand.

Did you read "Have your yellow cake and eat it to" on Townhall? Based on that was Congress being honest with the public?

Clarity not Agreement
Do not expect agreement so long as we use the truth as we know it. Hopefully we can gain from that truth something less disagreable.

christianlib
Brighan Young died in 1877. What evidence do you have that your statement has any basis in LDS doctrine since then?

I could also interpret your quotation from Brigham Young to mean that God would strike the person dead. I see no evidence that a murder is encouraged.

The point is that you destroy your main point by a ridiculous statement.

Sadly, one of the reasons that I preferred McCain over Romney is that I knew that Romney's Mormonism would be used against him (although perish the thought of questioning Obama's Muslim and/or Black Liberation faith).

charles
and the meaning of the word is---is
you sound like clinton now.

i have done my research here charles.

here is link

http://www.christiandefense.org/mor_black.htm

heres more charles
Here are just two examples from their 'bible', the Book of Mormon.

Example 1: 2 Nephi 5: 21- 'And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people, the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.'

Example 2: Alma 3: 6- 'And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion against their brethren, who consisted of Nephi, Jacob and Joseph, and Sam, who were just and holy men.'


and some more
on August 27, 1954 in an address at Brigham Young University (BYU), Mormon Elder, Mark E Peterson, in speaking to a convention of teachers of religion at the college level, said:

"The discussion on civil rights, especially over the last 20 years, has drawn some very sharp lines. It has blinded the thinking of some of our own people, I believe. They have allowed their political affiliations to color their thinking to some extent.I think I have read enough to give you an idea of what the Negro is after."

"He is not just seeking the opportunity of sitting down in a cafe where white people eat. He isn't just trying to ride on the same streetcar or the same Pullman car with white people. It isn't that he just desires to go to the same theater as the white people. From this, and other interviews I have read, it appears that the Negro seeks absorption with the white race. He will not be satisfied until he achieves it by intermarriage."

"That is his objective and we must face it. We must not allow our feelings to carry us away, nor must we feel so sorry for Negroes that we will open our arms and embrace them with everything we have. Remember the little statement that we used to say about sin, 'First we pity, then endure, then embrace'...."


and one more
Sometime before the 'revelation' came to chief 'Prophet' Spencer Kimball in June 1978, General Authority, Bruce R McConkie had said:

"The Blacks are denied the Priesthood; under no circumstances can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty.

The Negroes are not equal with other races where the receipt of certain blessings are concerned, particularly the priesthood and the temple blessings that flow there from, but this inequality is not of man's origin, it is the Lord's doings." (Mormon Doctrine, pp. 526-527).

On June 13, 1978 The Salt Lake Tribune reported the following: "President Kimball refused to discuss the revelation that changed the Church's 148 year-old policy against ordination of Blacks, saying it was a personal thing. Kimball said the revelation came at this time because conditions and people have changed. It's a different world than it was 20 or 25 years ago. The world is ready for it, he said."

Black self denigration seems to me to be a science. A lot of its genesis is rooted in religion and, as we all know, some of the scriptures in the Bible were used to justify the world's biggest crime, the Atlantic Slave Trade. While the 1978 'revelation' has opened up the priesthood to blacks who are 'worthy', it hasn't changed the fundamental doctrine of the Mormon church that a black skin is a curse.


christianlib
I do not take anything from the Bible, let alone the Book of Mormon, literally. You can read whatever you want into the Bible.

The 1954 statements on race where typical of the entire country and all religions at that time. Mormons were no better or worse than anyone.

I still don't see the part about killing any Mormon who married a black person. Volume of quotes is no substitute for relevance.

Frankly, I think you're just prejudiced against Mormons.

allen
that was a very civil response and i appreciate it.

too often anyone who is not conservative is immediately called names and their opinons are dismissed out of hand.

and yes i am someone who searches for truth and agreement which is a fundamental american value in my opinion.

i will use this weeks response to irans missle firing as my analogy.

mccains first response is to threaten military intervention.

obamas first response was to say we need a strong dose of negotiating.

lets look at the message we send.

iraq did not have nuclear weapons and we attacked them.

north korea does and we are talking to them and supplying them millions of dollars of food aid.


so if you are iran, which model do you want to follow.

we have had enough IMHO of the neo-con philosphy of changing the middle east through military intervention.

military intervention in iraq made iran more powerful not less.

now objectivily i honestly thought the neo-con idea of regime change to get a democracy was an idealistic approach but they knew nothing of the culture and rumsfeld was incompetent.

on the other hand we have ended up with a reigime that although symbolically is democratic, is allied more with iran than us and still the most powerful person in iraq is a cleric, al-sistani.



allen
again than you for the civil dialogue.

i own my own business and mornings are office time and now i have to go and check my employees who are on jobsites.

hopefully, we can continue this at a later date.

Yellow cake column
Read AP's actual reporting. Not at all the same as column claims.

Did not intentionally mean to mislead.

Bottom line - Column not worth the reading.

Christian Lib
Once again, you miss the point.

Rev Wright is a proven racist. BO acknowledged him as a mentor. If the protege or mentoree seeks out a mentor, a reasonable conclusion is that the mentor's mindset is very similar to his own. If not, a reasonable person would accept the premise that the mentor/protege relationship would be short lived and not last for two decades.

Did any of the Mormons you mentioned accept or acknowledge a racist Mormon priest as a personal mentor? Don't think so.

“Associate with men of good quality if you esteem your own reputation; for it is better to be alone than in bad company.” - George Washington


Thanks all
Good converstation. bye

christian lib
MSN seems to dispute your interpatation of McCains remarks. He did not say use force.

Please see what Madalaine Albright, Bill Clinton, Carl Lavin, Al Gore had to say about Sadam and his threat from the time of H.W. Bush. One might think Hussain would sell weapons to terrorists if they were to be believed.

North Korea - South Korea may have a bit of influence in our actions there.

Please ask yourself why Bill thought no fly zones and cruise missiles were necessary and If
Al Gore got elected would he have just got out.
Remember France, Germany and Russia were signing trade agreements, Money talks Iraqi lives not so much.
Sign Up to Post Your CommentsSign Up to Post Your Comments
If you are already registered, click here to login. Otherwise, please take a few seconds to register with Townhall.com. Once you sign up, you’ll be able to post your comments immediately, use the action center, get podcasts, and more!
Note: Fields marked with a red asterisk (*) are required.
Salutation:
First Name:
*
Last Name:
*
Email:
*
Nickname:
*
Note: Nick name will be shown when you post comments.
Address 1:
*
Address 2:
City:
*
State:
*
Zip:
*
Phone:
      
Your daily must-read of conservative columns, cartoons and news. Coulter, Sowell, Krauthammer and more.
(Bi-Weekly) We highlight the best opportunities from our partners for surveys, action items and more.