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Thursday, May 01, 2008
Victor Davis Hanson :: Townhall.com Columnist
The Half-Won, Half-Lost War
by Victor Davis Hanson
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The gloomy election-year refrain is that America is mired in Iraq, took its eye off Afghanistan, empowered Iran and is losing the war on terror. But how accurate is that pessimistic diagnosis?

First, the good news. For all the talk of a recent Tet-like offensive in Basra, the Mahdi Army of radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr suffered an ignominious setback when his gunmen were routed from their enclaves.

This rout helped the constitutional — and Shiite-dominated — government of Prime Minister Nuri Kamal al-Maliki renew its authority, and has encouraged Sunnis to re-enter government. Two great threats to Iraqi autonomy — Iranian-backed Shiite militiamen and Sunni-supported al-Qaida terrorists — have both now been repulsed by an elected government and its supporters.

Our armed forces are stretched, but Gen. David Petraeus, the top U.S. commander in Iraq, and his colonels are quietly transforming a top-heavy conventional colossus into more mobile counterinsurgency forces.

Petraeus’ recent nomination to Centcom commander suggests that, like the growing influence of Gens. U.S. Grant and William Tecumseh Sherman in 1863, or of George Marshall when he reconfigured the Army in 1940, we at last are beginning to get the right officers in the right places at the right time.

The despairing enemy seems to sense this as well. The more al-Qaida mouthpiece Ayman al-Zawahiri threatens the West, the more he sounds like Hitler's shrill propagandist Joseph Goebbels in his bunker as the Third Reich was crumbling.

In his latest desperate rant, a suddenly "green" Zawahiri was reduced to appealing to environmentally conscious Muslims to fault the United States for our supposed culpability for global warming! No wonder polls across the Middle East show a sharp decline in support for his boss, Osama bin Laden.

We haven't been attacked in over six years since Sept. 11, while the FBI has arrested dozens of jihadist plotters. Our elected officials squabble over the Patriot Act, Guantanamo and the loss of constitutional liberties. Yet, the odd thing is not the nature of such a necessary debate, but the inability of critics to muster enough support to repeal post-9/11 legislation and policies -- a tacit admission that these measures have worked and saved thousands of American lives.

But is the war then nearly won? Hardly.

And that brings us to the bad news. We still censor ourselves in fears of terrorist threats, mortgaging the Enlightenment tradition of free and unfettered speech. In Europe, cartoonists, novelists, opera producers, filmmakers and even the pope are choosing their words very carefully about Islam -- in fear they will become the objects of riots and death threats.

Here at home, our State Department is advising its officials to avoid perfectly descriptive terms for our enemies like “jihadist” and “Islamo-fascist” in favor of vague terms like “violent extremist” or “terrorist” -- as if we could just as easily be fighting Basque separatists.

Even more worrying, Americans cannot find a substitute for imported oil. The result is that $110-a-barrel petroleum is slowing our economy, weakening our international financial clout -- and sending billions in capital into the hands of our otherwise unproductive enemies.

The way to shut down Iran's reactor or its subsidies for Hezbollah is not necessarily through bombing but by getting oil back down below $50 a barrel, which would cut the value of Iranian petroleum production by nearly $100 billion a year and weaken an already weak economy.

Saudi Arabia largely ignores our pleas to help rebuild Iraq and cease its money flowing into the hands of radical Islamists. And why should they listen to us? After all, at present astronomical prices, their oil production is worth nearly half-a-trillion dollars a year — with Chinese, Europeans and Indians waiting in line to pay even more.

In all our major wars — except the present one — Americans have won through a combination of military prowess, correctly identifying the enemy and economic savvy. In the Civil War, the South was blockaded and starved of its cotton revenues, an effort that proved every bit as important as Gettysburg and Sherman's "March to the Sea." Germany was blockaded in both World Wars and cut off from precious metals, oil and food. The Soviet economy collapsed before its military could. Only in this war has our own profligacy empowered our enemies.

After years of learning how to fight an unfamiliar war in Afghanistan and Iraq, and to protect us at home, we are finally getting most things right. But if our soldiers and intelligence agencies have learned how to win, our politically correct diplomats and the American consumer haven't — and are doing as much at home to empower radical Islam as those on the front lines are to defeat it.

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About The Author
Victor Davis Hanson is a classicist and historian at the Hoover Institution, Stanford University, and a recipient of the 2007 National Humanities Medal.

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National Safety
But, "we're no safer now than before 9-11," say the "progressive" liberal socialists.... I ask you, how can that assertion be believed by anyone with any intelligence. We haven't been attacked, yet the enemy has tried many plots in Europe. Yet it is often repeated in the letters to the mainsteam media. If you don't believe me, log onto: http://www.sfgate.com/chronicle. That is the on-line version of the SF Chronicle, where Mr. Hanson is syndicated. Just watch the reaction there (in the letters to the editor section) to this column when it is published tomorrow. I'll bet you anything someone tries to refute his assertion by miming that Kool Aid talking point, and many others will attack him in ad hominem arguments. Bear witness TH'ers.

Oil Wars
The solution is not to lower the price of oil.
At least not by very much.

Instead refiners should be granted an exemption to anti-trust. Allow (require????) them to offer $80 to $90 a barrel for the next 30 to 35 years for crude oil, or similar refineable substances, so long as it comes from the United States or contiguous states----Canadian tar sands.

No matter what they do not get to lower the price or refuse to accept additional supplies. It will be an "any and all" basis.

This is enough to apply advanced extraction techniques to conventional wells, to liquify coal, to utilize tar sands, to extract the solid called shale oil from its source rock, to manufacture crude from waste and so forth and so on.

With the profitable price guaranteed, opposition to drilling etc will be far less effective. In fact I would expect to be soaking the American motorist to subsidize the export of the American surplus that will materialize within a decade or so.

With Uncle Sam self-sufficient in petroleum, the
oil satrapies will not be put out of business but they will have to clean up both their business act and their geo-political act as well.




Oilpatch Mercenary
"Allow (require????) them to offer $80 to $90 a barrel for the next 30 to 35 years for crude oil,"

Who's to allow? What Marxist boot-camp did you graduate from?

Stay and Win or Pull Out
If anyone thinks this is Bush's war alone has their head up their a--. This very Congress that is critizing Bush voted for this war, and now try and tell us they were tricked into it. Well this does not say much for any of them now does it. They had the same information Bush had and if they are not smart enough to understand what they read, they should not be in Congress.

America (President, Congress and the American People) started this war, we have no other option then to finish what we started. Everyone supported this war because of what the President, Congress, the Media was saying, so if you now want to stay free and keep America safe, we CANNOT cut and run now, like a bunch of chickens.

Our Troops that died and/or injured deserve better then what we Americans are doing/saying to bring them home. If America has any honor left, we will stay and win with the help of God and a Republican Congress and a Republican President.Remember one thing, 9/11 happened after we voted in a Democratic Congress and our economy has gone done since. Not because of the war along, but because of this do nothing Congress. Fight for our TROOPS, like we did in WWII and give them what they need. Not more talk, but the tools they need to win. Congress needs to get off its butt and vote in a sensible arms force package, with NO PORK ATTACHED.

Joy of Iowa

Boutte
You are nothing if not consistent.

You are also a friend of our enemy and a BDS-obsessed leftist, but hey, nobody's perfect.

Let us know when you've decided to apply to the military as an embed reporter - and actually get some facts from the front.

In the meantime, keep drinking the "we're doomed" Kool-Aid.

Holocaust Remembrance Day
Today is Yom Hashoah, Holocaust Remembrance Day. For those of you who have been reading my blog, I have posted my third and final entry on the Holocaust earlier this morning.

Please take the time to stop by and read it. If the words I have written speak to you, then I ask you to pass them on. Email it to others and spread it. I think it's an important we all need to read and take to heart.

God bless you all,

Curtal Friar

Ignorance cont...
"Remember one thing, 9/11 happened after we voted in a Democratic Congress and our economy has gone done since."

It did? AFTER we voted in a Democratic congress? Really?

Wow... unbelievable. You do a SERIOUS disservice to our brave men and women. You can't even be bothered to understand basic facts.

Go knit or something. That doesn't require to actually know anything.

Primus54 writes:
"Let us know when you've decided to apply to the military as an embed reporter - and actually get some facts from the front."

You actually have "facts from the front?" Or do you have "facts" given to you by pundits YOU agree with?

One thing I have learned in politics: You are a scholar if I agree with you, and a scoundrel if I don't.

Facts be damned. Facts are not right/left. They are just facts. It's THAT simple. If you need some spin on your "facts", you really aren't dealing with reality.

Joy Knows No History,Neither Does VDH
"Two great threats to Iraqi autonomy — Iranian-backed Shiite militiamen repulsed by an elected government and its supporters."
VDH elides the fact that Ahmadinejad was greeted with kisses and open arms when he came to Baghdad recently. That makes sense since the two parties making up the Iraqi gov't were formed and supported by Iran while Saddam was in power.
The operation against Sadr was to suppress a competing political power. Maliki wants to lessen the competition in the fall elections. The US and allies have to support a political purge?

Joy, you're welcome to your opinion but you don't get to make up US history. In 1994, Republicans took over Congress and on 9/11, a Republican president and a Republican congress were in power. You should really wake up. Your economic history is just as bad. Clinton was president at a time of better GDP numbers than the last 8 years, better employment numbers and better income growth for individuals.

Al-Sadr is a major player.
Al-Malki government fears the results of upcoming provincial elections will usher in Muqtada al-Sadr loyalists.

This is what really was behind the Maliki government "crackdown" of al-Sadr's forces. It wants to intimidate al-Sadr's people.

It fears al-Sadr's people will win the elections.

Al-Sadr is the only major politician in Iraq who can claim to be an Iraqi nationalist(certainly not al-Hakim...a stooge of the Iranians and whom the U.S. is supporting against al-Sadr, nor al-Sistani, who lived in Iran for years and has an Iranian passport). The lackluster Al Maliki hid out in Syria during Saddam's reign. He has little support among most Shias.

I think Vindex is right on intelligence briefings.

The fact that none of the neighboring Arab states are lifting a finger to help us on Iraq should tell us something. they know Bush blundered there, and the resulting millions of fleeing Iraqi refugees streaming into Syrian and Jordan(and elsewhere)are destabilizing the entire region.

I think the fact the Saudis are refusing to help us at all on the price of oil is partially due to their decision to stick it to this administration anyway they can for what they see as Bush's disaster on Iraq.

Price of oil has benefited Iran, Russia, Venezuela, Saudi Arabia, and has greatly damaged the United States and the West.

Boutte/Vindex & Consummate Ignorance
He didn't write that he had "facts from the front", he wrote "get some facts from the front", a subtle yet significant difference. For example, you wrote, "They DO NOT NORMALLY get to see all of the intelligence in raw form like the President does.", but you stopped short of capitalizing the word that applies in fact. If you do/did your homework & didn't just want to make yourself feel better/superior by attacking sentence structure instead of addressing the point of Mr. Hanson's article, you would know that in this particular case our marxist, liberal, socialist Democrats in Congress had access to the same information EVERYONE else had. No one needs me to defend them, but ingorance is as ignorance writes so maybe you should stick to knitting yourself.

With Each Passing Day...
Iraq recovers. For all of his bluster Mahdi remains hidden in Tehran guarded by the Revolutionary Guard. This last dust-up was a disaster for him and Iran. There was no popular uprising. Within 48 hours of the offensive, the Shias were routed in place like Kut Nabblah, and Nasahriah. Only Basra held out, and that was due to Malaki's mercy. Last week, the last of the Shia strongholds in Basra were secured.

With each passing week, more oil from Iraq is sold on the open market. To the surprise of all foreigners, petro dollars are being shared. AQ and Mahdi are on the run. If this continues, Iran, Syia, and Saudi Arabia will have a big problem on thier hands. Thier subjects are not stupid. They will ask themselves, if the Iraqis can live without a repressive regime, why cannot we do also?

Iran's economy, despite thier oil wealth is a mess. They must import refined gasoline and diesel, which negates much of thier oil profits. Thier consumer economy is heavily subsidized (gasoline sells at $2 a gallon due to these subsidies); large segments of thier youth are in dissident groups, and the mullahs must threaten to get people to go to the mosques. Despite a well trained and equipped elite spec ops group, thier standing army is a joke. Most of their wealth is now spent devloping WMDs -thier one and only ace in the hole. If oil prices ever do fall again, thier one source of wealth and influence is gone.

Vindex
"They DO NOT normally get to see all of the intelligence in raw form like the President does"

No one outside of the CIA or NSA Operations Directorate sees the raw intel -not even the President. The President must ask specifically to see the data in its raw form. This is rarely done as sources, ongoing ops, intercept methods, agents and case officers names, etc... are just too detailed and pose a huge security risk. The DCI,DDI,DDO all brief the President, as well as the Senate and House oversight committes. The President, his National Command Authority, and Congress are all equals and receive the same reports written by various staff officers.

By law the CIA and NSA must brief Congress on any ongoing and new ops within 72 hours of thier commencemnt. The raw details of these ops however, are redacted for security purposes. And with good reason. The lives of overseas case officers and thier agents are at stake. Our security is also at stake. Most recently Senators Kerry and Leigh both leaked to the press the names of CIA operations in foreign lands. Someone at NSA or in Congress leaked the foreign intercept program to the Times.

Good to see
It is good to see that Hanson has gotten over his gloomy prognostication from when, as he says, we were doing things, wrong and now sees as in sight of military victory.

Oh wait, no, back when Hanson now says our military was on the wrong track he was excitedly proclaiming how we were on the right track and military victory was just a matter of staying on track.

It's so confusing. It is almost as if Hanson cheerleads for the war independent of the significance of the actual facts at any given time.

Iran's favored Iraqi militia had some success against Iran's less favored Iraqi militia. Yeah we must be winning. Violence is increasing in the country again, but then as we have learned from Hanson, increases in violence show we are winning, while decreases in violence show we are winning. It is nice that we get to win so consistently.

The Betrayal Of Security, Sovereignty
The liberal Democrats are in the position of that Geneva war Correspondent for a New York newspaper, Vladimir Illyich Lenin, and the other war Correspondent and Manhattan, NY émigré, Leon Trotsky, during WW1. The American-financed Bolshevik’s objective was not military victory over the Kaiser but the overthrow of the Russian democratic government presided over by Kerensky. The Bolsheviks, the "only one party is necessary" socialist of their times were more interested in consolidating power than winning a war. They abdicated any support for their army or victory over the Kaiser to set up a policy to overthrow their republic and taking total control of their congress, the Duma. Like the Bolsheviks, the Democrats consider themselves Plato's enlightened Philosopher Kings. They call themselves” Vanguards of the Revolution”. Democratic politicians and bureaucrats believe that they are so pure and enlightened that they must for a time rule the unenlightened proletariat and exterminate the reactionary bourgeoisie. ( To the liberals and Democrats it is the Conservative, Christian, Constitutionalist or Capitalist Caucasian male s that constitute the bourgeoisie and kulaks that need re-educated). Their progressive priority, as shown by Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, Ted Kennedy and Hillary Clinton and the rest of the neo-Jacobin, Saul Alinsky disciples is one-party control. This is why they seem more allied with the mullahs of Islam. The DNC shares the hatred of Christianity, our republican Constitution, capitalism and national sovereignty of our country. Both want a world government controlled by Marxist or Mullahs, Communist or Caliphs. Both the Islamic mullahs and the progressives are colluding, conniving and plotting to overthrow George Bush, the Republican Party and any conservative elements in America, like the armed forces.

I have always wondered
if Boutte and Lon and others like them have access to information even Hanson does not have. They always seem so sure of their opinions.

zapddodat
If one wishes domestic oil to be produced in sufficient quantities to avoid dependence upon
sometimes hostile elements, one may do one of two things.

1) Command levels of production.

2) Pay enough to assure required levels of production.

Uncle Sam has been doing the command route for 60 years now. Perhaps we should try the alternate approach.

If refiners did this on their own they would be prosecuted under anti-trust laws. Thus, a corrective intervention of some nature is called for.

(a) Repeal the anti-trust stutes in their entirety.

(b) legislate an exemption

(c) order an exemption for a fixed period of time.

As (a) above does not seem to be in the realm of political propriety, (b) and/or (c) would seem to be in order.

And if you consider this Marxist, you need to be found guilty of econometric modelism and sentenced to 30 years in solitary listening
to Keynes debate Gailbraith.

Gee, Wally
With all the profound military knowledge and cunning expertise I am reading about here, how can there POSSIBLY be any trouble in the middle east?

Or is this just the hot air that come from that region?

Woody from Iowa

Hanson
Basra was a success? That is a lie. Things in Afghanistan are getting very bad and AQ is on the comeback there.

"Al-Qa’ida (AQ) and associated networks remained the greatest terrorist threat to the United States and its partners in 2007. It has reconstituted some of its pre-9/11 operational capabilities through the exploitation of Pakistan’s Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA), replacement of captured or killed operational lieutenants, and the restoration of some central control by its top leadership, in particular Ayman al-Zawahiri.

In Afghanistan and surrounding areas, State Department notes, al Qaeda now has “greater mobility” in the region:

Despite the efforts of both Afghan and Pakistani security forces, instability, coupled with the Islamabad brokered cease-fire agreement in effect for the first half of 2007 along the Pakistan-Afghanistan frontier, appeared to have provided AQ leadership greater mobility and ability to conduct training and operational planning, particularly that targeting Western Europe and the United States. … AQ leaders continued to plot attacks and to cultivate stronger operational connections that radiated outward from Pakistan to affiliates throughout the Middle East, North Africa, and Europe."

Think Progress

AMERICA'S SUICIDAL ENERGY POLICY


.....HANSON ...YOU WROTE:

....."Even more worrying, Americans cannot find a substitute for imported oil. The result is that $110-a-barrel petroleum is slowing our economy, weakening our international financial clout -- and sending billions in capital into the hands of our otherwise unproductive enemies." ...

.....America cannot find a substitute for imported oil? ...that is stupidest statement I have heard since the last time Hillary opened her mouth ...

.....We are sitting on a 300 year supply of Oil/Gas/Coal while we hype Ethanol and Windmills ...who is blocking oil drilling in Anwar and our Continental shelf? ...who is stopping the building of refineries and Nuclear Power Plants? ...look no further than our "Congress Nostra" lead by Democrats and RINOs who are kissing the butts of the Green Goons and Eco-whackos who want us to live in tepees to preseve the "Environment" and save "Planet Earth" ...who are we saving it for? ...the Chinese? .....COLOSSUS

LMAO
Typical conservative whining. They run a war without paying or sacrificing for it then complain when the bill comes due. All the venom many folks here hurled at "stupid/deadbeat" homeowners being foreclosed applies to all. But why should the rest of the world lower the cost of oil just to feed our incopmpetence and greed? Heck a huge chunk of the increased cost of oil isn't oil it is the devalued dollar. We won't control consumption...guess what deadbeats the bil;l is coming due

loco
Yes, they have access to newspapers. These things you see laying on some people's lawns in the morning.

Oil
Bush accused congress for the high price of gas, saying they didn't let him give the Arctic wildlife reserve to big oil, who by the way just reported yet again the world's biggest profit records, and thus creating a shortage. The truth is the oil companies don't want to spend there big profits on silly things, like investing in refineries. In California they closed down 10 of them.

Starting January 20, 2009 ...
A big positive step in this war will be America replacing a president who has been in bed with Saudi Arabia his whole life. We may find out in the future that Bush read the riot act to the Saudis after 9/11. But I doubt it.

Vindex
The terribnle thing about everyone and the word fact is this: The media leaves out many important details in order to fuel the fire and sale of newspapers. The media in my view is anti Bush, anti war. So, where can I get some facts that detail the actual goings on? From anyone who has nothing to lose but their lives. Could be a soldier, could be Mike Yon who is doing it soley to report what he sees. And, then will tell you what sucks, what is good. Anyhting else is subjective and mostly slanted one way or the other. We should be in it to win, now that we're there. Nothing before March 18, 2003 matters. Just my two.

Taft
"Bush accused congress for the high price of gas, saying they didn't let him give the Arctic wildlife reserve to big oil, who by the way just reported yet again the world's biggest profit records, and thus creating a shortage."

At best, Anwar only has two or three years of the US's oil demand then what? Folks, the binge is over learn to control yourself and please begin to pay your way for once in your life.

"The truth is the oil companies don't want to spend there big profits on silly things, like investing in refineries. In California they closed down 10 of them. "

LOL they will just whine and blame the left as if that is any excuse for them not solving problems

reply to Baseball doc
You and I, once more, are in agreement. Our "oil crisis" is largely of our own making. We have oil and natural gas resources that remain undeveloped. It is already, right now, possible to explore and develop these resources without destroying the environment. Provide enough tax breaks to the energy companies and we'll have both oil and gas, and a reasonably clean environment.

A big part of the problem with leftist environmentalists is that they operate with an absurdly unrealistic view of the purity of the environment. They want zero effect of humans on the environment, and, short of the human race disappearing, that's not going to happen, ever.

Then there's nuclear power. Check out the following: http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf40.html

This takes you to a page that lays out, in detail, how France has obtained a great degree of energy dependence by getting about 75% of its electricity from nuclear power. France is the world's largest net exporter of electricity. Unlike the US, the French responded to the 1974 oil embargo by moving forward effectively on nuclear power. Compared with the degree of organization and effectiveness of the French on this issue, the US looks pathetic and backward.

How come no presidential candidate is beating the drums for nuclear power? Count me as a liberal nuclear power supporter.

Hal
As usual LYAO that your brain is superior to others. So, if we conservatives are whining about the bill coming due, what are the dems doing? Coming up with more plans for taxation and unity and how to get the troops out? Or, maybe, just maybe they've got their green thumbs plugged into their ears singing la-lalalalalala I can't hear you because the energy they want is not cost effective and they're hoping none of their constituents will notice?

Taft?
Your note seems poorly thought through. The arctic is not limited to one use at a time - there is no reason that oil exploration and wildlife can't coexist. They do everywhere else. Yes, oil companies are making money, and at some point that is too much, but - would yu rather they went out of business? I live in one of the regions in California where the oil refineries are being shut down. They are not shut down because we ran out of oil or because the oil companies are evil. They are being shut down because many years of eco-wacko opposition and eco-wacko-originated federal legislation have wearied them of ever having a productive relationship with California. To give you one example, several years ago they brought in a specially-designed ship, at the eco-wacko's request, to remove oil rigs from the channel. Eco-wackos then discovered that mussels grow on the structure (something business already knew - we export mussels to restaurants) and cried foul - the evil oil companies were disturbing an ecosystem.

Listen. gasoline prices here average $0.40 above the national average, and I don't like prices any better than you do. But could you maybe direct your venom against someone that is truly evil?

Nee
"As usual LYAO that your brain is superior to others."

Hey not true I keep telling you folks I am any man. I am a moderate also

"So, if we conservatives are whining about the bill coming due, what are the dems doing? Coming up with more plans for taxation and unity and how to get the troops out?"

Well what would you like done? More important are you willing to pay for it? The Ds are trying to achieve consensus on how to repair the damage and rebuild the nation and the military heck let's be honest rebuild every aspect of the country after the disaster that was conservatism

"Or, maybe, just maybe they've got their green thumbs plugged into their ears singing la-lalalalalala I can't hear you because the energy they want is not cost effective and they're hoping none of their constituents will notice? "

The one I like is a vehicle tax; the bigger the vehicle the bigger the tax. Just teasing but we could have fun with it LOL. Their answer appears to be, rightly I think, a whole gamet of things from comsumption reduction to experimental technology.

FredSBA/Folks
Maybe when you agree to agressive CAFE standards and other means to reduce consumption we can talk about the artic. Right now opening the Artic or any other area is like giving money to a drunk

woody asked
"With all the profound military knowledge and cunning expertise I am reading about here, how can there POSSIBLY be any trouble in the middle east?"


and to think that all the profound military knowledge and cunning expertise you are looking for has been right under your nose, coming from a stable of pentagon-hired "retired military analysts" getting themselves onto Fox, CNN, and MSNBC to spin the war in favor of the defense department and their own financial investments in Blackwater.

Oil aside
I think the biggest cost of this war has been the unbridled secrecy of this government, the trashing of human rights and our constitution. It has caused us to take a hard look at ourselves, if we are courageous enough to clear away the smoke of self-congratulation and fantasy, and that look isn't pretty.

This war has caused me to become cynical about America in a way that I never experienced. It has also caused me to become cynical and mistrustful of the nature of human beings in general.

For me, that has been a huge price.

part 2
Before 2003, I used to wonder how a country could become so paralyzed by fear that it would literally put it's own citizeins into concentration camps, such as we did to the Japanese. I think I just dismissed it as a form of governmental and cultural temporary insanity. Now, I am surprised they wern't all tortured and committed to solitary confinement -
or worse. Of course, if some were, we wouldn't know about it, would we?


As a Vietnam Vet ...
I agree with Joy. We need to stay and win the war in Iraq. I was very upset how the politicians handled Vietnam and I'm sure the soldiers in Iraq are upset about throwing away their work there by pulling out now.

Oh, by the way, if you want to know what is going on in Iraq, talk to a returning soldier or one that is there. Ignore the MSM coverage. It is totally wrong for reasons that shall not be named. The soldiers all tell different stories and I prefer to believe what they say since they experienced it.

Critics Choice
To all the "arm-chair" critics of the war we must win in Iraq, take heart. There is still a strong potential that one of the Dem candidates will win the presidency. We will of course declare a timetable for withdrawal and allow a respite for al-Queda and Iran to step back, regroup and re-arm.

Following a political retreat from a critical battle against Islamic extremism, chaos will ensue in the region, tens to hundreds of thousands of innocent people will be slaughtered and oil will climb to some value unattainable by even the U.S. We will of course still be debating the environmental impact of disturbing a frozen patch of ice vs. the value of tapping domestic sources of oil. The literal dark days that will follow as the result of a liberal, socialistic approach of good vibes as opposed to action to address problems will give new meaning to the idealistic words of incompetence and leadership. Their true meaning may only be an election away.


think_4_yourself/woody
"...and to think that all the profound military knowledge and cunning expertise you are looking for has been right under your nose, coming from a stable of pentagon-hired "retired military analysts" getting themselves onto Fox, CNN, and MSNBC to spin the war in favor of the defense department and their own financial investments in Blackwater."

Any other modern country seeing the gross mismanagement the government would be marching in the streets demanding change. At least the D's are demanding change and a return to American values while kicking the conservatives out of office. The conservative sheeple just keep blithly playing follow the leader...

45 Caliber
"Oh, by the way, if you want to know what is going on in Iraq, talk to a returning soldier or one that is there. Ignore the MSM coverage."


I live close to a huge Army base and I've talked to several returning vets, who paint a much grimmer picture - and a much more cynical one - than any I read in the press.

The domestic violence and suicide rates among returning vets are through the roof there and elsewhere - in fact, the suicide rate among vets and active duty soldiers is now the highest in history.

Primus54-CFriar
If they would let our soldiers drop the gloves and have at it, they would ALL be home by the 4th of July.

Did you see where Hal Drunkahue compared drilling ANWR to giving MONEY TO A DRUNK! HOW IRONIC IS THAT?!?!?!

THAT calls for a hearty LMAO!

Hal
What I don't understand is why the conservative media just keep putting out the same propaganda that the media does. there hasn't been one story about the revelation that FOX and CNN military "objective experts" were paid by the Defense Department.

We have all become so politicized that we swallow anything on it's ideological basis rather than really looking at and sorting out facts.

We have become a nation of bumper-sticker, buzz-word, middle-brow thinkers.

45caliber
"Oh, by the way, if you want to know what is going on in Iraq, talk to a returning soldier or one that is there. "

Which ones? The ones behind the wire? Officers or enlisted? Know what I mean? I talk to a lot and how you feel seems to be directly relaated to where you were and what you did and what time you were there. The same as in our war.

"Ignore the MSM coverage. It is totally wrong for reasons that shall not be named."

Sure you can name them. They have almost all, even CNN, been the victim of pentagon and administration propaganda campaign.

"The soldiers all tell different stories and I prefer to believe what they say since they experienced it. "

You know that the big picture is seldom seen.

Robert
If my memory serves me right, you have been extremely critical of Bush, especially the manner in which he (MIS)managed the war...he is the Commander in Chief.

Yet now you are more encouraged about Iraq than ever.

And on the surge, you are probably correct.

It may well be that Bush stumbled upon a decision to hire an extremely competent person in Petraeus to deftly manage the fiasco with which the Bush decison on Iraq presented him.

As an American, I want us to succeed in Iraq..to extricate ourselves honorably from an Iraq that is not a haven for terrorists.

But I will NEVER forgive Bush for his obsession to invade Iraq in the first place.

I disagree with you on Muqtada al-Sadr.

I think he is extremely popular among the dispossessed Shias in Iraq.

Al-Maliki heads an Iraqi government composed of a number of bandits...thieves. They have a vested interest in seeing al-Sadr defeated. They don't want the moneytrain derailed.

They fear if al-Sadr's people win in the provincial elections, America's credit card will be cancelled..members of the al-Maliki government can no longer loot millions of dollars from the U.S. treasury thru the Bush administration "reconstruction funds" for Iraq.

Iraq now has amassed over 70 billion dollars from oil revenues, sitting in banks, while the U.S. taxpayer foots the bill for "reconstruction". What a deal for them.

I think we are being taken to the cleaners. I think the Bush administration is either too stupid, or too invested in its failed policy, to understand the American taxpayer is being taken to the cleaners.

Even so, I agree with you fundamentally. We must not leave a failed nation in Iraq.

But there will be no more "Iraqs" in the future.

The American people have learned a bitter lesson.

A good bumpersticker:

"BE NICE TO AMERICA OR WE WILL BRING DEMOCRACY TO YOUR NATION".

Peace.


and Hal
What I've come to realize is how much of what we think is established by the press..not always what they report, but what they don't report, which is generally anything that might not keep viewers from turning the channel. As a result we get 24 hour reporting on Obama's pastor, dead starlets, and Miley Cyrus, and we come to think those issues are important because they're on the news all day.

156 people posted on a Miley Cyrus column on TH yesterday!

Over my coffee each morning, I check out various websites, if I compare TH and, say, the Drudge Report with Talkingpoints memo.com It's like reading the "news" from two entirely different planets.

think_4_yourself
"What I don't understand is why the conservative media just keep putting out the same propaganda that the media does. there hasn't been one story about the revelation that FOX and CNN military "objective experts" were paid by the Defense Department."

What do you really think they want a free country??? LMAO nope they really are sheeple

"We have all become so politicized that we swallow anything on it's ideological basis rather than really looking at and sorting out facts.

We have become a nation of bumper-sticker, buzz-word, middle-brow thinkers. "

Not as elevated as middlebrow. Personally I think it is just fear. They are terrified of change and terrified of accountability or paying for what they use. That is why you see so much jingoism posing as patriotism and fake US history. Sheeple is a perfect description I think

think_4_yourself
What is wrong with retired militry personnel
expressing their opinions on TV and elsewhere?

Where is it written that military personnel may
not put their personal funds into Blackwater
and other incorporated businesses?

By the way, my own oil and warmongering stocks are doing quite well, thank you. Does that invalidate my philosophy? Does that mean that I cannot advocate taking the shirt off your back at the pump while upsetting you with my gratitude to the mercenaries I have hired to go abroad and get your panties in a bunch?

Agreeing with Donald Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney, George Dubya etc is not a crime. Sometimes I wish it was. Be a pleasure dealing with those who think they could enforce it.


Heading back to the States
A bit off topic personal information, but I wanted to let some people that I have enjoyed corresponding with on here know that I am heading back to the states from Iraq tonight.

It Will be about a 3 day process going through Kuwait on the way out. Its a bit earlier then I had planned but will be happy to get home.

Special thanks to all those like willi b, a tough old Korea war vet that was a great support to me over here, anne, Yttrium and others that helped keep me motivated and let me know that America supports the troops and others that understand what it takes to win.

For great news stories of Iraq you can continue to check out:
http://www.taskforcemarne.com/dog-face-daily/

http://www.taskforcemarne.com/

the 3 ID "Dog Face Soldiers" of the Marne Division HQ will mostly be out of here and replaced by the 10th Division HQ (its unclassified) over the comming month to a month and a half.

I will have some new blog posts up next week but that is not my first priority when I get back to the States :)

Rob Tinsldr2@yahoo.com

Caliber 54
I meant to include in my post to you that I have heard military brass and military historians say that the views of troops are almost always at odds with the views of officers. It probably is what Hal is talking about, alot depends on the size of the picture you are looking at and when you view it.

I heard an interview not long ago with a retired officer (not one of those who was reporting on the war) who said that privates and sargeants will generally tell you the war is being won and they should continue, that this is true of any war.

A Hal Drunkahue Posting
HIC! LMAO! You Ignorant, Gun Toting, Bible Thumping, Conservatives are to blame for the price of oil. You BLATANTLY do harm to Mother Earth with your 4X4 Club Cab Trucks and SUV’s. HIC! LMAO! You don’t need them, you are just GREEDY! You can carry tools, bales of hay or sacks of cement just as well in a Prius as you do in a RAM 3500. HIC! LMAO! Wait a minute, I have a phone call:

HD: HIC! LMAO! Hello.

Pittsburgh Brewing Company: Hello Hal. Just calling to let you know we are going green. Instead of a Beer Truck we will be using a Prius to make deliveries. However, as a consequence will only be able to deliver 1 case of beer a week to Scranton.

HD: HIC! LMAO! WHAT! Let me call you back!

HIC! LMAO! I have to run now, a matter that is IMPORTANT FOR NATIONAL DEFENSE requires my attention. HIC! LMAO!

Jerabaub
I pretty much agree with what you wrote to Robert, I'm just not convinced that the resolution you want is possible.

Also, even if it were possible to leave Iraq in the condition you describe, our credibility, honor, and trustworthiness have ben damaged for generations to come.

Oilpatch mercenary
"What is wrong with retired militry personnel
expressing their opinions on TV and elsewhere?

Where is it written that military personnel may
not put their personal funds into Blackwater
and other incorporated businesses?"
+ + + + + + +
There is nothing wrong with any of the above - but when retired military personnel take money from the pentagon to pose as objective analysts and pi*p the war, it sucks. Of course, dishonesty from this government and defense department is pretty de rigeur and shouldn't surprise anyone.

Apparently, you seem to think that military personnal whoring for the pentagon so they can get a paycheck and protect their Iraq investments is OK - to me it's just more evidence that our media has become as poisoned and as dishonest as our government.

Hal
About you're previous post regarding the conservative media - I agree with you more than I'm letting on. I'm just trying to be non-incendiary today.

Hal
I'm trying to see if being polite will result in real debate and the civil exchange of opinions, and if posters who are up for that will sort themselves out from the Georgetwins and Annes and My Opines, who may just get bored and go to one of the really heavyweight threads like Mike Adams or Doug Giles.

Politically Correct and Cowardly
With a Democratically controlled congress, we will never ever be able to fight the economic war which needs to be done in order to weaken Islamo-freakin-lunatics -- the way this done, the surest and quickest way this done -- is for Bush, by executive order, to open ANWR and the coasts of California and Florida to drilling and suspend environmenmtal reg's impeding production and let the chips fall where they may -- and here's exactly where they'll fall:

The liberal media will fly into tantum mode along with their enablers -- from environmental zealots/fascists to your typical upper east side limo liberal to average indoctrinated liberal douch bag spouting meaningless vitriole and adolescent temper tiraids (which they do all week long anyway over the smallest bullsh*t)for a few weeks while the majority of average Americans enjoy lower gas prices and the concommitant economic upswing as a result while middle-eastern Muslim fascist kooks realize they're over-baked sand infested brains can not come up w/anything with which to hold reasonable white people hostage and thereby begin to wonder whether they ought to excercisie a little reason and self control in the international community. As for the latter, I do not think they are actuall capable of sustaining such reason but its worth a shot.

Thinking For Myself
Looks like those who have been "whoring for the Pentagon" have been plumb effective.

Had they been ineffective, nobody would be hollering about what they had said and done.

All of which indicates that VDH has got things about right: War is half-won and half-lost.
Battlefield going well, homefront shaky, in no small part because of those who insist upon disaster.

Lots of interesting times ahead.

Now before I go to work, may I suggest that those reading this, and concerned with constructive steps go back to the second post on this thread and give a good evaluation to my proposals on how to cure foreign oil dependency?






jerabaub/Robert
"...It may well be that Bush stumbled upon a decision to hire an extremely competent person in Petraeus to deftly manage the fiasco with which the Bush decison on Iraq presented him."

Bush was forced by the American people to do something in the elections. With Rumsfeld tossed in the bin at least some little bit of competence and reason could bubble up. The question does remain what is winning? Right now we have created a strong ally of Iran. Was that our goal?

"As an American, I want us to succeed in Iraq..to extricate ourselves honorably from an Iraq that is not a haven for terrorists."

Iraq never was a haven for terrorists at least before we went in and my understanding is that it is only a terrorist training ground now.

"Al-Maliki heads an Iraqi government composed of a number of bandits...thieves. They have a vested interest in seeing al-Sadr defeated. They don't want the moneytrain derailed."

Are they that much different from the Bush Regime?

"...I think we are being taken to the cleaners. I think the Bush administration is either too stupid, or too invested in its failed policy, to understand the American taxpayer is being taken to the cleaners."

See above LOL


Liberals!
Continually in a state of denial! At the moment there is no shortage of gasoline or oil. The fact is, liberals and democrats, (to inclide McCain, Snow, Chaffee, etc...) have artificially limited our ability to get to oil in our own country. Furthermore, have obstructed all attempts to build refinerys in this country.
Then they blame the oil companies for the price of oil. Those of us who really understand the market know that as long as liberals have their head buried in the sand they can tax oil companies through the nose, and put them out of business, and they will only make it worse. It looks as if they want to make the poor poorer!
Anyone with at least their brain functioning can see that if we open our lands to exploration, and open more refineries, the price of oil will plummet the day it is announced!
But they don't give a rats behind about the poor, just their political power. Otherwise they would poke holes wherever there might be a drop of oil, and find ways to get cheap energy to the American people (nuclear), without draining our food supply!
But NOOOOOOOOOOO-OOOOOOOOOOOO!

think_4_yourself/Oilpatch
"... Apparently, you seem to think that military personnal whoring for the pentagon so they can get a paycheck and protect their Iraq investments is OK - to me it's just more evidence that our.."

These are christians who approve of torture and you think little things like lying, cheating and stealing are not OK? LMAO I needed that laugh today I did

Got to go, Hal
I's been fun, as usual.

The issues about oil are worth continuing - I hope posters actually talk about that and not liberals.

I could get into a whole discussion on nuclear energy, which I think may be our only realistic alternative.

All you liberals
Please tell us EXACTLY, step-by-step and cent-by-cent, how you intend to reduce the price paid for gasoline by the American People, by imposing additional taxes on the oil companies, since the new taxes will be added to the price, and WE THE PEOPLE PAY ALL TAXES. You could reduce the price by eliminating all the taxes, and replacing them with ONE proper tax to collect all revenue for each level of government..

Eliminate the 18.4 cents per gallon federal pump tax, and the 32 cents per gallon, PA State pump tax. Eliminate all the other taxes in existence, on all levels of government, which add up to one-third (1/3) of the price – of everything.

You could greatly reduce the price by writing a law which declares that ALL OFFSHORE OIL BELONGS TO THE PEOPLE OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, and hiring the oil companies to drill, pump, refine, and deliver all petroleum products to us for the cost of processing plus 10 cents per gallon profit.

This would eliminate the foreign nations’ price per barrel, the speculators’ add-on charge, the oil-tanker-ship charge, the oil spills when the tanker ships run aground, and the clean-up cost thereof. This would reduce the price for refined petroleum to well under a dollar a gallon, and make us independent of the Arabs and all other oil-selling peoples.

You could also reduce the price by no longer wasting our oil and wasting our food supply by diluting our gasoline with alcohol and making it inefficient. Gasoline provides energy by exploding in the engine, while alcohol burns and does not explode, providing no energy.

All of this would also end the budget deficit, put the balance-of-payments in our favor, and enable our paying off the national debt. What would increasing taxes on the oil companies do for us? Nothing good would come of it, only higher taxes, shortages, and more dependence, which is just what you liberals want most.

bobby-g
"..Continually in a state of denial! At the moment there is no shortage of gasoline or oil. "

True but at what price? We devalue our money = we pay more for a commodity. This is not a scarcity issue it is true capitalism - allocation through price. Why are you complaining?

"The fact is, liberals and democrats, (to inclide McCain, Snow, Chaffee, etc...) have artificially limited our ability to get to oil in our own country. "

It would be no cheaper. How much would then cost per barrel be to produce it? Unless you wanted government control it would still go on the international market to be allocated by price.

"Furthermore, have obstructed all attempts to build refinerys in this country."

It is a commodity and makes little difference where the refinaries are. Just as manufacturing moved to China and other countries refining moved also

"Then they blame the oil companies for the price of oil. Those of us who really understand the market know that as long as liberals have their head buried in the sand they can tax oil companies through the nose, and put them out of business, and they will only make it worse."

There are few oil companies and little competition especially in the US. Oil companies will not go out of business

" It looks as if they want to make the poor poorer!
Anyone with at least their brain functioning can see that if we open our lands to exploration, and open more refineries, the price of oil will plummet the day it is announced!"

LMAO for a day maybe then be right back. Your grasp of economics is astounding unless you want to move away from capitalism...


Hal Donahue
"GIVING MONEY TO A DRUNK" is the definition of TAX INCREASE.

Hal Donahue Doesn't get It
Hal Donahue, your posting (as opposed to you; I don't know you) is intellectually dishonest and ignorant. Here's why:

Your words: "The question does remain what is winning?"

My Response: Winning means providing a secure environment within which Iraqi's can govern themselves, within which Iraqi citizens may pursue prosperity freely and in which Iraq remains an allied with American national interests -- economic intersts and idealogical interests, namely freedom and democratic principles which include those undeniably and inherently inalienable.

Your words: "Right now we have created a strong ally of Iran. Was that our goal?"

My Response: Lay off the crack. Iran is an ally of nobody except for Russia, China and state sponsors of terrorism and terrorists themselves-- Venezuala, Syria, Hezbollah, Hamas, Al Quada. They are not allied with Iraq in any way shape or form.

Your Words: "As an American, I want us to succeed in Iraq..to extricate ourselves honorably from an Iraq that is not a haven for terrorists."

My Response: I do not believe your sincerity. I believe you want America to lose so that you can say, I told you so."

Your words: "Iraq never was a haven for terrorists"

My Response: If Iraq was never a haven for terrorist, then what do you call someone who murders over a million of his own people with weapons of mass destruction (serin gas) and who tortures those whose views are not consonane with his ow?

Your words: "my understanding is that it [Iraq] is only a terrorist training ground now."

My Response: Osama Bin Laden himself has repeatedly and overtly declared Iraq the central front on the war and prior to our invasion, Osama Bin Laden overtly declared (and acted upon that declaration on 9/11) the United States homeland the central front on HIS INITIATED war.


Ron
"....You could reduce the price by eliminating all the taxes, and replacing them with ONE proper tax to collect all revenue for each level of government.."

A flat tax based on income might just work no write offs everyone one pays an equal percentage of of income to taxes. Is that what you mean?

"Eliminate the 18.4 cents per gallon federal pump tax, and the 32 cents per gallon, PA State pump tax. Eliminate all the other taxes in existence, on all levels of government, which add up to one-third (1/3) of the price – of everything."

and road maintenance? other projects? How do we pay for our wars or don't we have them?

"You could greatly reduce the price by writing a law which declares that ALL OFFSHORE OIL BELONGS TO THE PEOPLE OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, and hiring the oil companies to drill, pump, refine, and deliver all petroleum products to us for the cost of processing plus 10 cents per gallon profit."

LMAO LOL let's ask does everyone here think we should do this? What would that be called?


Eagle
"My Response: Winning means providing a secure environment within which Iraqi's can govern themselves, within which Iraqi citizens may pursue prosperity freely and in which Iraq remains an allied with American national interests -- economic intersts and idealogical interests, namely freedom and democratic principles which include those undeniably and inherently inalienable."

Well in that case we have irrecoverably failed already have we not? Women under the new regime will never be free will they and see below

Your words: "Right now we have created a strong ally of Iran. Was that our goal?"

"My Response: Lay off the crack. Iran is an ally of nobody except for Russia, China and state sponsors of terrorism and terrorists themselves-- Venezuala, Syria, Hezbollah, Hamas, Al Quada. They are not allied with Iraq in any way shape or form. "

HUH!LMAO what kind of reception did our Iranian fella receive in Iraq while Condi Girl had to hide? Except... wow do you know how much wealth etc is controlled by that group and heck the Hezzies just defeated the entire Israeli armed forces in pitched battle. Al Q is as strong now as on 9/11 what happened then? Think for goodness sake think

"Your Words: "As an American, I want us to succeed in Iraq..to extricate ourselves honorably from an Iraq that is not a haven for terrorists."

Not my words at all. We have been there too long to succeed. All we can do now is try to salvage something at least reasonable.

"My Response: I do not believe your sincerity. I believe you want America to lose so that you can say, I told you so."

Nope if I wanted to do something like that I would just say: "see.."


eagle 2
"Your words: "Iraq never was a haven for terrorists"

My Response: If Iraq was never a haven for terrorist, then what do you call someone who murders over a million of his own people with weapons of mass destruction (serin gas) and who tortures those whose views are not consonane with his ow?"

A US ally that is what Saddam was when he did that to the Kurds and you folks say torture is OK remember?

Your words: "my understanding is that it [Iraq] is only a terrorist training ground now."

My Response: Osama Bin Laden himself has repeatedly and overtly declared Iraq the central front on the war and prior to our invasion, Osama Bin Laden overtly declared (and acted upon that declaration on 9/11) the United States homeland the central front on HIS INITIATED war.

eagle 3
"Your words: "my understanding is that it [Iraq] is only a terrorist training ground now."

My Response: Osama Bin Laden himself has repeatedly and overtly declared Iraq the central front on the war and prior to our invasion, Osama Bin Laden overtly declared (and acted upon that declaration on 9/11) the United States homeland the central front on HIS INITIATED war. "

and you believe everything Osama tells you? Over that time Al Q is stronger now than 911 and is in a position to destabilise both Afghanistan and nuclear Pakistan. Yet u still belief him LMAO

Hal Donahue is a liar, dummy and fool
Hal, you're a dummy.

You claim that we were allied with Saddam and thereby complicit in and with his actions when he mass murdered 800,000 Kurds is absurd. You are an idealgue whose capacity for intellectual honesty is non-existent. That makes you a liar . . . and a fool.

Your claim that "[we] folks [presumably conservatives] say torture is Ok" is equally absurd. That is the arguement of an adolescent simpleton.

I happen to blieve torture is ok when its benefits vastly outweigh its costs where for example the torture of one individual with concrete knowledge of an imminent threat of mass destruction should be employed in order to prevent said mass destruction -- you bet. Anything to the contrary is sheer folly. Would you rather thousands of innocents die for the sake of sparing 1 guilty individual/terrorist pain and extreme discomfort? I didn't think so.

Herr Oberstleutnant Klink Scribbles:
and you believe everything Osama tells you? Over that time Al Q is stronger now than 911 and is in a position to destabilise both Afghanistan and nuclear Pakistan. Yet u still belief him LMAO

He rates right down on the Believsbility Scale with Kerry, Murtha, HRC, Obama, Robert and you. Probably higher.

Eagle
Hal is just another liberal shill. If President Bush hadn't gone into Iraq, Hal would have criticized him for that, too.

Ken
Ken:

Good point. And the proof that you are correct is that the same liberal shill's are freaking out because we do not go in UNILATERALLY to Darfur to stop that genocide.

Georgetwin
your killing me
HIC! LMAO

Robert
Zzzzzz -- Huh? Did you say something?

wobbie/Doofus
wobbie:
Hal, schnookems, why do people think that I'm lying to them?

Doofus:
HIC! LMAO
Leave me alone, pookie. I'm calling HIC!, some breweries HIC!! LMAO

wobbie
tell any Marines that they are "waiters" lately?

Ken
wobbie does have that affect! haha

Drunkahue
Hey Doofus, throw any vets under a bus today? Or are you and your CIQ still dodging sniper fire?

Ken writes:
Robert
Zzzzzz -- Huh? Did you say something?

Only three long posts that should be patented as a cure for insomnia. I see they worked on you.

Hysterical
Robert:

That's hysterical! What's even funnier is that you actually believe that!

Man, you should go on tour w/ Richard Pryor or better yet, Fat Rosie O'Donnell!

Robert
It is the height of arrogance that you think any of your long-winded posts (with the emphasis on "wind") would be worth that much of my time. I knew you had a swelled head, but you've really outdone yourself this time.

P.S. I think we've found the real cause of global warming. It's Robert's hot air!

Robert
"off for some rack time"

Chickening out again, eh?

Robert
"It is way above your intellect."

You can't even write a coherent sentence, and you insult my intellect? I knew you had delusions of grandeur, but you're even worse than I thought.

Oilpatch Mercenary
'By the way, my own oil and warmongering stocks are doing quite well, thank you. Does that invalidate my philosophy? Does that mean that I cannot advocate taking the shirt off your back at the pump while upsetting you with my gratitude to the mercenaries I have hired to go abroad and get your panties in a bunch?

++++++++

Actually, I think you should make your money anyway you can -- it's the American way.

I buy Yen, myself.


Eagle
I always thought Anne was the single most stupid poster on TH, but you've won me over, which is not easy to do.
Congratulations.

Civility over. I think polite discussion lasted about three posts, then the Robert-baiters dropped in and ruined another thread.

Ken writes:
Robert
"off for some rack time"

Chickening out again, eh?

Too bad Torquemada is not operating the rack. Robert does have one major talent. He could put statues to sleep with his posts.

Kook-Aid Victor
It's hilarious to watch people who call themselves "Republicans" like Victor Hanson spouting off this liberal drivel.

Notice, by the way, that despite saying something has been "half won half lost" he doesn't bother to state what the mission is rendering the terms "won" and "lost" meaningless.

I am reasonably confident that had Ronald Reagan been President when the 9/11 attacks occurred, Al Qaeda would have been eradicated and the proper message would have been sent in a matter of months.

There would not have been this idiotic grandiose utopian scheme to magically “democratize” the middle east by simply holding elections through invasion and military occupation.

And I am certain that Reagan would not have claimed that the enemy had “won” when this did not happen as the result of such elections and invasions.

Robert
Very well said!

Robert
Well said

Herr Oberstleutnant Klink Scribbles:
Robert
Very well said!

Which is conclusive proof it is mindless drivel.

Hal - I think I know why you and Think
and I check in on these TH threads - besides the horror/fascination aspect, (the feeling one used to get from old-fashioned freak shows) it's somehow reassuring to see what the conservative movement actually consists of.

Sorry for the dangling preposition.

Robert
Your insults are as lame as - let's face it - everything else you write.

Robert
I think the torch-and-pitchfork crowd that follow you around, are actually grateful for your existence, if you didn't exist they wouldn't have anything to talk about. I think you provide them with a reason to live.

Truly, when you aren't posting they still obsess about you and wonder where you are.

But - think of it this way: it's like keeping ignorant thugs off the street and out of the way.

deathstar
They were slowing melting down; now it is just an implosion. Is this an example of reverse Darwinism?

Eagle
" writes: Thursday, May, 01, 2008 1:56 PM
Hal Donahue is a liar, dummy and fool
Hal, you're a dummy."

Feel better now LMAO

"You claim that we were allied with Saddam and thereby complicit in and with his actions when he mass murdered 800,000 Kurds is absurd."

"There you go lying again sigh I never said "therefore" however I did mean to imply if Saddam was a terrorist he was our terrorist.

"You are an idealgue whose capacity for intellectual honesty is non-existent. That makes you a liar . . . and a fool."

This is based upon.....

"Your claim that "[we] folks [presumably conservatives] say torture is Ok" is equally absurd. That is the arguement of an adolescent simpleton."

You presume correctly and yes you do so name call away talk about moral relativity....


Eagle 2
"I happen to blieve torture is ok when its benefits vastly outweigh its costs where for example the torture of one individual with concrete knowledge of an imminent threat of mass destruction should be employed in order to prevent said mass destruction -- you bet. "

LMAO this is the argument of a moral coward. If you knew that there was concrete knowledge you wouldn't need to torture you would know enough already. You are just trying to rationalize what you are doing. Torture doesn't work because how do you know you are being told the truth? Second how many people must be at risk before torture is ok? 10, 20, 100, 1,000? Talk about a slippery slope

"Anything to the contrary is sheer folly. Would you rather thousands of innocents die for the sake of sparing 1 guilty individual/terrorist pain and extreme discomfort? I didn't think so."

I NEVER want my country to approve torture period full stop. Torture is cowardly and stupid. I want torture illegal and a crime against humanity as it is now in every civilized country in the world. If I torture someone to save (heck, let's aim high) millions of lives, I want to be immediately charged and tried before a jury of my peers.

Eagle2
"I happen to blieve torture is ok when its benefits vastly outweigh its costs where for example the torture of one individual with concrete knowledge of an imminent threat of mass destruction should be employed in order to prevent said mass destruction -- you bet. "

LMAO this is the argument of a moral coward. If you knew that there was concrete knowledge you wouldn't need to torture you would know enough already. You are just trying to rationalize what you are doing. Torture doesn't work because how do you know you are being told the truth? Second how many people must be at risk before torture is ok? 10, 20, 100, 1,000? Talk about a slippery slope

"Anything to the contrary is sheer folly. Would you rather thousands of innocents die for the sake of sparing 1 guilty individual/terrorist pain and extreme discomfort? I didn't think so."

I NEVER want my country to approve torture period full stop. Torture is cowardly and stupid. I want torture illegal and a crime against humanity as it is now in every civilized country in the world. If I torture someone to save (heck, let's aim high) millions of lives, I want to be immediately charged and tried before a jury of my peers.

Lumberjack7392
"Which is conclusive proof it is mindless drivel. "

The frightened and timid lumber pops his head out of the bunker....LOL

TINSLDR
Don't know if you'll read tis, but want to say Godspeed and Welcome home.

Herr Oberstleutnant Klink Scribbles:
Lumberjack7392
"Which is conclusive proof it is mindless drivel. "

The frightened and timid lumber pops his head out of the bunker....LOL

Actually, I have been on the Coulter tyhread.
BTW i am neither frightened nor timid. Why should i be? .
You really need to do something about that hebrephrenia. Get some anti-psychotic meds ASAP.


Hal
"They were slowing melting down; now it is just an implosion. Is this an example of reverse Darwinism?"

------------

Lol. I don't know, here are some theories, though: 1., It's a parallel universe 2., It's upside-down day at the local middle school or 3., There's a secret TH website where the grown-ups go to post and we just need to find the right password.

Hal
About that secret password - have any ideas? i.e,
"bitter", "torture" or "traditional values"?

Hal/Tru Arnston
Enjoying jacquing each other off?

AZ Phil
Shouldn't you be sniffing around Robert? I think he's on another thread.

Hal
The "Tru Arntson" tag is a name I once used on another computer.

I think Phil thinks he's revealing some kind of secret about my past. Let him enjoy it, now that Robert's not here he has nothing to talk about.

Oh, Phil
Now that Robert's gone, I suspect your
friends are over on the Miley Cyrus post, which is a great example of the expression that water finds it's own level.


deathstar
"About that secret password - have any ideas? i.e,
"bitter", "torture" or "traditional values"? "

No, no it would be more along what they really are try: "timid", "frightened",,,

Hal
Got to go, but I'll use my magic code-breaking ring to work on it.

Huffington Hal
As usual Huffington Hal the Doofus is sh*tting all over another thread along with his sidekick Captain Wobbles the Clown. Two moronic no-nothings spewing the same tired old leftist rubbish! Then there is think 4 yourself. What an oxymoron! Leftists DON'T think for themselves! The ONLY thing Leftists understand is "America sucks & must perish for her sins against the globe!" Leftists are not only worthless, but also simple minded & dangerous to America's national security. The tin foil hat brigade need to move to another country. All America haters, get out now!

Hal Donahue
I guess it all depends on how you define the term. Would you consider locking someone in a five by eight cell for the rest of their life torture? No? Because I feel confident, that given a choice, the average lifer would take twenty minutes of head dunking terror over a lifetime spent sleeping in the same room where he relieves himself. Yes, prison would be considered torture by a great many people.

I agree that pulling out fingernails and breaking bones for information is barbaric. But scaring someone into giving you information is not.

My point is that the term torture has come to mean anything that subjects someone to discomfort of any kind. I find defining the term that loosely to be asinine. As for the poor results seen from things like waterboarding, if that is the case why do they still use these methods?

And please give me something other than, "Bush is mean and likes to hurt people." Unless you think the military and intelligence agencies are by nature cruel, and dare I say it, evil, then you have to assume they have had some success with things like waterboarding.

deathstar
Wait I know it: "deadbeat". Try it I bet that works

Taft
Thanks, you stole my reply and put it better than I likely would have.

Ken
"...Leftists DON'T think for themselves! The ONLY thing Leftists understand is "America sucks & must perish for her sins against the globe!" Leftists are not only worthless, but also simple minded & dangerous to America's national security. The tin foil hat brigade need to move to another country. All America haters, get out now! "

That puts you first in line. You extreme conservatives say all the words but do none of the deeds. Blind obedience to a leader is NOT American. You create an America that never existed then lie... Come on as I have said before why are you and your ilk working so hard to destroy the US when there are many third world countries just like you want us to be I suggest you try Nigeria very every man for himself and they are very conservative.... Enjoy

bob
"..I guess it all depends on how you define the term. ...., the average lifer would take twenty minutes of head dunking terror over a lifetime spent sleeping in the same room where he relieves himself. Yes, prison would be considered torture by a great many people."

But that is not the accepted definition of torture. I mean we joke about prison rape and violence but do nothing but not the issue here. The definition of torture is well defined and you are taking the Bill Clinton approach of arguing the definition. If you were upset with his it depends on what sex is comment; you are using the exact same tactic in the same manner

"I agree that pulling out fingernails and breaking bones for information is barbaric. But scaring someone into giving you information is not. "

If that were all and you did not convince them that you would seriously kill them (of course then it would not work would it) then you would be correct. However, waterboarding is recognised as torture and the US has actually prosecuted people who used waterboarding and we called it torture. The US admits that over 30 individuals died while undergoing enhanced interrogation.

"My point is that the term torture has come to mean anything that subjects someone to discomfort of any kind."

Legally and that is what we are speaking there is srict definitions

"I find defining the term that loosely to be asinine. As for the poor results seen from things like waterboarding, if that is the case why do they still use these methods?"

Fear and cowardice are the usual reasons. If this group had one successful torture outcome you do not think it would be on parade??? Come on... Key operatives of groups and governments are trained to resist torture and actually use it against the torturing group. Those are the very people who would have that ticking bomb information.... that is one reason why it doesn't work


Bob 2
"..Unless you think the military and intelligence agencies are by nature cruel, and dare I say it, evil, then you have to assume they have had some success with things like waterboarding. "

Not at all resignations keep coming in all ranks. Heroic officers speak out etc look at the Gitmo head prosecutor turning against tainted edvidence etc... I know these folks and the honorable ones refuse or fake it or sadly allow the "true believers" do it,....

Folks
must run, be well

Hal Donahue
Conservatives are blindly obedient to their leaders? That is rich. I can think of at least five issues off the top of my head that conservatives have been browbeating Bush about. Myself included.

On the other side of the isle, it seems rare when you hear democrats speaking negatively about democrat policy. Now either your leaders are perfect, or it is you, and not us, who tend to follow like sheep.

And the "every man for himself" view is not a conservative one. We simply like it when neighbors and family and others do the helping and give the charity. Democrats on the other hand like to dump all their responsibilities onto government so they can feel better about themselves without actually getting their hands dirty. But let me state that not ALL democrats are like this. Only the ones who walk on the hard left.

Hal
"You create an America that never existed then lie"

I'm not the same "Ken" to whom you replied earlier, but I don't think you have any business accusing others of rewriting history. You were the one who said Teddy Roosevelt protested Americna involvement in World War I.

An Australian Soldier in Iraq
For all you surrender monkeys on this thread This is written by an Australian Army soldier stationed in Iraq.

Before I came over here I thought we (the Australian Army) were pretty hot..... was I ever wrong!....The Yanks (I hope you don't mind me using that word) are so professional from the top to the bottom that it is almost embarrassing to be in their company, and to call yourself a soldier....don't get me wrong, we are good at what we do but the Yanks are so much better.....they are complete at what they do, how they do it and their attitude is awesome....they don't complain they just get on with the job and they do it right.....I carry a Minimi (SAW) so I am not real worried about a confrontation but I tell you I feel safer just knowing that the US Army is close by....If we got into trouble I know that our boys would come running and we could deal with it but they would probably be passed by a load of Hummers. No questions asked, no glory sought, the Americans would just fight with us and for us because that is their nature, to protect those in need of protection.....We use the American Mess so you could say that we are fed by the Americans.....they have every right to be pissed at that but they don't complain about that they just make us feel as welcome as possible....what gets to me is that the Yanks don't walk around with a 'we are better than you attitude' and they could because they are, they treat us as equals and as brothers in arms. If nothing else, coming here has taught me that the Americans are a truly great Nation and a truly great bunch of people.....Let's face it they don't HAVE to be here, they could stay in America and beat the crap out of anyone who threatened them, BUT THEY ARE HERE because they believe they should be here, and the Iraqis would be screwed if they weren't here.....When I come home, you and I we are going to the US,

Sheepdog
The truth is a wonderful thing, isn't it?! Sometimes it takes an outsider to see what it is that we miss right under our collective noses.

Regards

bob
There is a good reason Progressives march in lockstep.
I can explain it in two words;
Joseph Lieberman

Bob
I'm going to butt in but I have to go right afterwards.

Why do you people always talk about our torture of prisoners as if it were hypothetical, or only involved waterboarding? Do you really believe the waterboarding is the worst thing we have ever done to prisoners, and that even that has only happened the few times we actually know about?

This war isn't a Danielle Steele novel with heroes and happy endings - and if you think that WB-ing was the worst thing that ever happened to our prisoners you are being duped by the government and the media, and you are terribly naive.

Mr. Hanson is lost completely
From the suggestion that the war is half-won, half–lost we can conclude that Mr. Hanson is lost completely.

In Iraq, we lost, Iran won. Our enemies were not empowered by our profligacy as Mr. Hanson implies, but by our plain stupidity and arrogance arriving from it.

In Afghanistan… let us remember that Alexander the Great did not conquer this country, and no one else since then. We should not be there as we should not be in Iraq.

Get it Right koolhand
If you read my article, I did not say who had control of Congress. I said the ones who voted for war are the ones who now say it was not their fault. Almost all the Democrats that are in Congress NOW, voted for this war and say they didn't know all the facts???? Well if you vote for something you had damn well know what your are reading. This bunch of Democrats are nothing but cowards who can't take responsibility for what they do or what they fail to do.

I have children in the service and they served in war time, they did not run under the kitchen sink and blame others, they love America and are just two who fought for your sorry --- freedom, what have you contributed to our COUNTRY to benefit EVERYONE?????
Joy of Iowa

Sheepdog
I was lucky to meet a group of Aussies in Viet Nam going on R&R to Austrailia. They were some of the best people I have ever met. We got so drunk toasting the Queen and the President I could hardly walk the night before leaving. I never saw any of them after the flight out, but I've often wondered if they made it to leave that hole alive. I hope and pray they did because they were a good sample of the people of a very fine country. We, as well as your country know this war has to be won and the aftermath has to go just right also. Once this country is a shining example of freedom to the rest of the middle east, things will CHANGE there. The Saudis think if oil is too expensive that we will cut and run, but that won't happen.

Liberals don't get it...

U.S. military bases in Iraq are huge, well stocked, and permanent.

Elect Hillary, McCain, or Obama... They're not leaving!

McCain was right! Marines will be in Iraq long after everyone on these threads... is dead.

Opposition is futile. Just get on board!

Enterprise
And just like her owner she thought she was a warrior! Wonder if she too thought she was a pilot......

Robert
There are plenty of heroes and plenty of happy endings. Additionally, there are villains and plenty of tragic endings.

Most people see this war realistically, warts and all. War can be an ugly thing. But it can also be honorable.

Whether you find this question sincere or not is up to you. If you have read anything I have posted, you will know that I don't talk trash, call names, or throw out insults. That said, some people have said you have made the claim that you are a Captain in the United States Navy. My uncle served on the U.S.S. Skate and there are few men more honorable and deserving of thanks then he was.

If this is true, I would like to thank you in earnest for fighting for my freedom and those of all Americans. Therefore, is it true that you are a Captain in the United States Navy?

Regards

Zell miller
Robert"You folks are looking more like Zell Miller every day" WOW! I'M impressed 'BERTO.
Of course you and yours look more like Alfred E. Newman. "What me worry? yuc yuc!"

Robert
My response. War can be an honorable endeavor and I will use the example of WWII. I don't believe you surrender your honor when you go to war. Sometimes there are circumstances where war is required and it is not ALWAYS because everything else has failed.

I believe there are times when you have to speak the language of the other party or the only language they will understand. Hitler was more than fine with sitting down at the table and talk and talk and talk. All the while preparing to do harm. There are some nasty people in the world who see talking as a sign of weakness. They only respond positively to actions, i.e. Quadaffi in Libya.

It appears we will disagree with the justification for war in Iraq. I believe the violations of the ceasefire, firing at our planes, and an assassination attempt on our President were enough to resume hostilities. You don't. No skin off my nose that we disagree.

It would then follow that we would disagree about whether or not the administration's prosecution of the war. I don't have a leg to stand on if I were to argue that the war went well. I don't believe anyone would argue that it did. But it does not then logically follow that our reasons were invalid. I don't believe our administration let our soldiers down in any way that could be considered nefarious.

But wars are messy affairs. How many times would we hear from Generals who would say that once the battle starts, throw away the plan? I don't know. I have never served in the Armed Forces.

Once again I say, if you are serving, you deserve a significant level of respect. Period. We may disagree in every matter known to man, but that does not change the fact that you and EVERY man and woman serving is owed a great deal of thanks.

Robert part 2

I am glad you love the Constitution. I have full confidence that no matter what happens going forward, even if we keep electing Democrats {:-)}, our Republic will survive and probably survive quite well. There are too many good people of honor who will do what it takes to keep moving forward.

Finally, when my uncle served on the Skate, it was during WWII. My cousin indicated that he may have been in Tokyo harbor during the war, but whenever I brought up the war or his service, mum was the word.

Regards

Oh boy!
After all the BULL 'berto has spewed he NOW invokes the UCMJ how fitting!!! He has talked about op eds, flight times & scheduals and all other types of non eyes material that if he were for real, he'd be in the brig. No, not in, they would lift the ship or landside brig up and TOSS him UNDER the thing!

Robert - Skate
Not sure what you mean by "Wrong Skate". My uncle's was a submarine that, I believe, was refitted and later sent out again after the war.

I remember my cousin purchased a U.S.S. Skate submarine model and built it as a gift for his father. I think my cousin still has it as he inherited it in 1999 when my uncle passed away.

I wish I knew what year he graduated from Annapolis, but if I had to guess, it would have been around 1940. I vaguely remember the story of when he came home, I think 1945 around Christmas, but don't hold me to that.

I think I would agree with you about honor. My guess is that we would disagree about the honor of our civilian leaders.

Regards

Sheepdog @ 5:07
Thanks for that. It should be published on the front page of every newspaper in the country.

"Only in this war...
...has our own profligacy empowered our enemies."

How quickly everyone looks to ANWR & big oil companies for the fix. Maybe time to look in a mirror, which I think is the writer's point. The politicians not only want to muffle outrage; they do not have the guts to call for sacrifice on the home-front... not even that third or fourth car for Junior & Missy. The suggestion is that other generations, certainly the WWII generation, would be car-pooling, walking, biking... doing whatever it took to get the gas price down to $50 a barrel, where we would then have them 'over a barrel.'
The war is half-lost... and that at home, as VHD correctly observes.

Deathstar
First of all, you can butt in any time you like. This being an open forum, I never have a problem with others challenging a post I made to someone else.

Frankly I do not know what sorts of extraction measures our soldiers and intelligence agents use. And I do not read any of Steele's work. I am not even sure what area of fiction he writes in.

The reason I pointed to water boarding is because we know that it has been used. I have to tell you that I have always had mixed feelings about torture. The very revulsive nature of inflicting pain on someone to get information is anathema to me. But as a thinking person I MUST examine the hypothetical end of this issue.

Forget about the ticking bomb scenerio where thousands of lives are at stake. I try to reduce it down to this: If a bad actor had information that could save your life-and I mean YOU specifically-would I use water boarding to get that information? I would have to say yes. I do not know you, but I am going on the assumption that you are a decent citizen, which does not seem a great leap. As such, your life means more to me than that of a guy caught trying to plant an IED outside of an Iraqi daycare center.

Scaring someone into thinking they will be killed is not torture in my thinking. Perhaps it is for you. If you think I revel in the idea of scaring another human being or subjecting them to fear, you are mistaken. I wish we lived in a world where the bad guys told us everything as soon as they were captured. Unfortunately that is not the case.

Robert
"They are the people this administration let down both by their actions and their competence."

You all heard him! Robert said the people in the Bush administration were COMPETENT!

P.S. Only a liberal could be "let down" by competence.
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