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Thursday, January 31, 2008
Victor Davis Hanson :: Townhall.com Columnist
Democrats Want to Lose... But Republicans Don't Want To Win
by Victor Davis Hanson
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Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


Just a few months ago, the 2008 presidential contest seemed predetermined. The New York lawyers Rudy Giuliani and Hillary Clinton were far ahead in their respective party polls. And in the one-on-one match-up, Sen. Clinton was all but declared the foreordained winner a year in advance.

But not now.

After Barack Obama's unexpected surge in Iowa, Bill and Hillary Clinton resorted to chewing him up through their trademark politics of personal destruction. Thanks to Clinton Inc., we now hear almost daily that Obama is inspirational but inexperienced, that he had admitted to drug use, that his middle name is Hussein, that he really was not against the Iraq war, that he consorts with Chicago slumlords, that he spins fairy tales, and that he likes Ronald Reagan.

Hillary found her many voices and pulled out all the stops — screeching, accusing and nearly crying — until finally Bill Clinton himself was unleashed.

Long gone was Bill's carefully crafted veneer of ex-president as global humanitarian and bipartisan senior statesmen. Instead, the Bill of old lost his legendary temper at reporters. He shook his finger. He bent the truth. Always he distorted Obama's record.

Then a funny thing happened. Hillary's liberal audience jeered at the pro-wrestling tactics of the Clinton tag team. The Democratic referees warned the Clintons to stop the eye gauging. Liberal spectators were bewildered not so much at the familiar Clinton knee-in-the-groin, but that it would be turned on one of their own good guys — and a young, soft-spoken and idealistic African-American at that!

Suddenly, “shocked” Democrats cried foul and recalled the tawdry pardons, impeachment and the tainted Clinton of the 1990s — not the rehabilitated Bill who helps tsunami victims and presides over the Clinton Global Initiative.

When the Clintons' return to power crashed into liberal dogmas about race and gender, all sorts of unexpected ironies arose:

Bill, as our first “black” president, had encouraged identity politics among a collective black electorate, so why was he angry that African-Americans might vote collectively for Obama? And had any recent ex-president ever regressed to such nasty character assassination on the campaign trail? As a committed feminist, why was Hillary calling for a male bailout by outsourcing her dirty work to her husband? And whom were we now voting for — Hillary, Bill or some sort of Clinton centaur, her supposedly rational head and torso implanted on his frisky body and legs.

The result of all this has been that while Hillary still polls ahead of the surging Obama in most states, in hypothetical general election polls she runs behind Republican front-runner Sen. John McCain.

End of story?

Hardly. In reaction to McCain's own surge and the Republican windfall, the conservative base went ballistic. Soon a Republican civil war broke out over how best to lose the election.

Despite McCain's 82 percent ranking by the American Conservative Union, and his support for balanced budgets, an end to pork-barrel spending and earmarks, strong support for the war, and expressed regret over once supporting the Bush illegal immigration reform package, McCain was branded by the conservative media as a sellout and a near liberal. Not to mention, he was supposedly too old and hot-tempered to be the Republican nominee. The more McCain was discovered not to be a perfect conservative, the more he was accused of not even being a good one.

Even stranger, the various Republican candidates began invoking Ronald Reagan's three-decade-old tenure as the new litmus test of the times — apparently to show how moderates like the wayward McCain fell far short of the Gipper's true-blue conservatism.

Were conservatives supposed to forget that a maverick Reagan raised some taxes, signed an illegal alien amnesty bill, expanded government, appointed centrist Supreme Court justices, advocated nuclear disarmament, sold arms to Iran and pulled out of Lebanon — but to remember only that John McCain was not for the original Bush tax cuts or once supported the administration’s offer of a quasi-amnesty?

The Democratic cat-fighters are doing their best to give away a once-sure general election, but the Republicans seem to be doing even more to ensure that they forfeit the unexpected gift they've been given.

If Hillary Clinton does end up winning her party's nomination, November's vote may hinge on whether moderates and liberals are nauseated enough by the Clintons' brawling and character assassination to cross over and vote for a decorated Republican war hero — that is, if his own flag-waving party doesn't destroy him first.

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About The Author
Victor Davis Hanson is a classicist and historian at the Hoover Institution, Stanford University, and a recipient of the 2007 National Humanities Medal.

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the end is near, folks
The RINOS had already turned off conservatives in 2006, but THIS tears it! All the old man has going for him, assuming you agree about Iraq, is that. Otherwise, he is a card-carrying lib on many critical issues, and a quisling at best on scamnesty... America will disappear if we do not stanch and reverse the ILLEGAL invasion, but the equivocating McQuisling has no more desire to do that than Presidente Jorge Bush. Your Senate this week is working on further commitments to pay ILLEGALS your S.S.

I worked in Reagan's campaign and then for Daddy Bush, albeit less enthusiastically. I have voted Republican faithfully for almost 40 years, but McAmnesty will cause me to stay home. The left kept saying they feared him the most, just as Brer Rabbit kept tellin' Brer Fox not to throw him into that brier patch. He will lose worse than Bob Dole, probably considerably worse. Maybe then the Republicans will wise up and decide that they must stand for something different than the left-- McAmnesty does not truly do that. I expect neoCONS like most columnists here on TH to be satisfied with him, and they know that Shrillary would not close those 18 permanent bases in Iraq either, which was the REAL goal of the Saddam take-out that so few understand.

http://tvnewslies.org/html/pnac_neo-con_artists.html
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/editoria ls/articles/2007/11/04/a_lazy_simplistic_analogy/
http://www.antiwar.com/pat/?articleid=2371

Thank you for telling the truth!
This election matters and I am not fan of "winning by losing." The Democrats have said they will pull out of Iraq as quickly as possible--that alone, which would set back everything we worked for is reason enough to win. But they are also intending to mess with the economy in ways that are really scary.

Let's face facts, McCain and Romney are not that different on policy. Romney is less electable due to mistakes he made with his campaign and also because this race favors McCain agains the Democrat right now. Let's rally around the guy who can win and stop complaining that he is not a perfect conservative. Who is? Even Reagan as you noted was not. What we want and need is a good conservative.

John McCain is that guy.

When the primarys over
then whoever is the winner can come looking for my support until then......fights on.

Romney's Swan Song
Romney wasn't happy about the criticism McCain leveled at him about timetables in Iraq. He said it was a dirty trick because it came days before Florida. Well, maybe so, but it should also serve as a comfort to nervous Republicans about McCain's ability to play hardball in the general. McCain may seem like a guy who likes to reach across the aisle but he's not afraid to get dirty. McCain will be a very clever general election candidate; it won't all be kumbaya with Clinton or Obama.

Romney's pushback, btw, that if this was an issue, then why didn't he raise it earlier, wasn't a great debate comeback moment. As I've noted before, Romney just doesn't come across well when he's angry.

Overall, Romney seemed simply ticked off. It was as if he realized the end was near and he didn't know how to stop it. He tried to go after McCain, politely mind you, but didn't trip the newly crowned frontrunner up.
http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/01/30/624574.as px

Differences on McCain and Romney
Romneys speech on freedom of religion

McCains disdain for the religious right.

Yep virtually the same.

Joe?
"As I've noted before, Romney just doesn't come across well when he's angry."

and yet McCain....angry...comes across....how????

Sorry
You can't kiss a Cobra and not expect to be bitten and the Conservative base has been bitten by the old Cobra once too often. The message didn't get through in 'o6 and they still think we will come back home once the nominee is settled like good little sheep. Then we will be penned up and let out for the next election.
I am voting in Nov., for my down ticket CONSERVATIVE candidates for Congress and State Assembly. I haven't quite decided about POTUS, probably a write in..but NOT McQuisling. And if the Establishment doesn't like it, tough. I'm all set, no more being used and abused by the elites. I hope other conservatives won't sit home and pout if they have good candidates down ticket, don't cut your noses off to spite your face. We need a whole new turnover in the next few cycles, start supporting young conservative upstarts against the calcified corrupt incumbents. So at least do that for the REpublic otherwise our burning the phones last year will have been useless.

I've got to agree....
...with TeaParty. As it stands now, I will not vote for Mccain, even if that means the Hildebeast gets in office. I could change my mind if Mccain were to pick a VERY conservative VP, but my bet is he is looking at Giuliani, who is not very conservative. I may have to write in myself for POTUS this time...

Exit polls in Florida
indicate 25 to 30 per cent of GOP voters characterize themselves as conservatives. Not enough to select a nominee, but more than enough to put a Dem in the WH if we stay home. In my case, i sincerely believe that only a return to conservative principles can conserve this nation as we know it. I don't believe McC has them. Even if he get should be elected, the crud is still heading for the fan. So it may as well be a Dem at the helm. The voter mob can not be counted on to be wise, especially in good times. They can be counted on to react harshly against policies perceived to be to blame for hardships. Since it is the left wing who got us here, best it be the left in power when demographics and ponzi scheme entitlements trash the economy in the next few years. Maybe then old fashioned ideas like reward of merit, personal responsibility, fiscal responsibility will again have some appeal. If turnaround never happens, no bunch of whining crybabies clinging to crazy PC ideas and hoping to spend themselves rich can long enjoy relevance or prosperity. Move over Europe, we are about to join you as observers on the world stage.

In a stagnant pond...
--
...you get scum on top.

On the left, neither Billary nor Mellow Yellow can be characterized as anything *BUT* scum.

Admittedly, Obama is slicker scum than The Woman With One Eyebrow, but neither of them are potable without fatal consequences.

And on the (nominal) right, we've got McCain - a man who gained everything in his political career by dint of his willingness to yield and "compromise" his every principle - and Romney, a "Blue State Republican" who demonstrated that he could get elected in the People's Soviet Socialist State of Taxachusetts.

Neither guy having a goddamned thing to say for himself except: "Hey, at least I'm better than electing Hillary, f'chrissake!"

Not that either of 'em has a hound's chance in hell of peddling his mildly deracinated socialism in an election contest with either Mocha Marvin *OR* Bubba's Ball-and-Chain, both of whom are selling pure-quill "Government-as-Santa-Claus" Let's-All-Gather-'Round-and-Sing-The-Internationale Marxism.

Fortunately for me, I won't have to write in anybody. I've got a candidate in the upcoming super-duper Tuesday primary, and who will almost certainly be on the ballot in November no matter how thoroughly the Republican National Convention proves that the GOP truly *IS* "The Stupid Party."

Ron Paul.

You RINO idiots are going down to utter defeat in November. You've made it inevitable for yourselves by backing the sorts of candidates who have all the appeal of a corpse that's been left out in the summer sun for a week.

You might be just as thoroughly defeated as your predecessors were in Barry Goldwater's campaign against that lying sumbitch LBJ back in '64, but at least you wouldn't have proven your utter and complete contemptibility as thoroughly as you're demonstrating right now.

The Republican Party needs to prove it has a soul and a spine.

You won't do it with McCain, that's for goddam sure.

--

Thasic -
I would think McCain would go with the guy he groomed for the VP job, his good friend - Fred Thompson

Republicans want to win
It's the 40% of the Republicans who consider themselves Conservatives first, that have a hard time understanding how Conservatives win if a Republican Socialist wins the Republican nomination.

Principles are more important than winning to Conservatives. That's why the Republican establishment hates Conservatives. We don't go along with their choices like Jerry Ford, Bush in '92, Bob Dole in '96, and now John McAmnesty in '08.

Bush in 2000 and 2004 talked mostly Conservative and didn't go out of his way to offend Conservatives like McAmnesty has done the last 7 years.

Obviously, the Republican establishment has to keep relearning the same lessons over and over again.

Conservatives will not support liberal to moderate Republicans for President.

End of Story. Accept reality and stop wasting your campaign donations.


Has the wrong blog
SJ Doc. Take your somewhat clever, but non the less gutter blatherings to some far left site and get in a fight over there.

If you can't keep it reasonable and stick to the article, please don't bother commenting here...

elixelx
elixelx writes:

Thursday, January, 31, 2008 3:15 AM

What happens when the man you have been unfairly or gratuitously sliming for the past 5 years suddenly, and despite your best efforts, gets elected POTUS?

Consider the egotism, the vanity, the sheer self-centredness, of being a "Conservative Republican" yet shunning John McCain and actually HOPING that he is beaten by a Clinton or an Obama just so that they can say they had a hand in his defeat and thus reclaim their unsullied purity!

They prefer the Devil they don't know!

There has been a lot of talk recently about McCain making his mea culpas on Limbaugh's show in order to win back the base. HOW DARE THEY?!

HOW DARE THEY?!!!

Who, but a fringe 10%, CHOSE Limbaugh as the Conservative Pope/father confessor? When did Malkin become the high priestess of Conservative purity? Who elected Hewitt and Hannity the Scylla and Charybdis of the Hell that is Conservative talk radio? When did Laura Ingraham or Mary Ham regress into Conservative Vestal virgins?

Although the symbolism above is mostly Pagan and Christian, the truth is that the Conservative blogosphere is behaving like a bunch of Wahhaabi Imams, issuing fatwas, death threats, charges of heresy, demands for tribute!.

For those named above and the others who blindly follow their rulings, John McCain is an APOSTATE, and they have tried mightily, and fortunately unsuccessfully, to strike off his head.

But beware: the former goat-herd, Rufus, shunned and bullied as a boy, became a Caesar, and soon taught the shunners and bullies a lesson they never forgot!

The Church of Conservative Purity should be glad that John McCain is not a vindictive man!

"There is a special place in Hell reserved for those who mislead the ignorant" (Talmud)

Won't be a guest
If McCain gets the nom. and if he gets POTUS, it's possible that the Rushes and the rest would want him to grace their by then less than lofty perches in the cathedrals of Radio and wonder why he of all people won't.

And possibly as elixelx writes "The Church of Conservative Purity should be glad that John McCain is not a vindictive man!", but also as the rumors tell he might "Not just get mad, but indeed get even".

But, more of a possibility as V.D.H. predicts we will shoot ourselves in the the foot and he will not get the chance.

Rats. I was hoping for it to happen...

Hope is not lost!
There's one candidate left who can unite the party:

http://www.mikehuckabee.com/?FuseAction=Blogs.View&Blog_id= 1304

Pushmi-pullyu not a Centaur
Please don not denigrate the repuration of Centaurs by comparing them to the Clintons.

If it must be a Beast, it should have two heads like Monster X (actually it had three) or a two headed troll.

My favorite for the Clintons is the Pushmi-pullyu, which typifies the struggle for direction between the two heads of the beast.

FROM WIKI.
The pushmi-pullyu (pronounced "push-me-pull-you") is a fictional creature in the Doctor Dolittle stories. It is a antelope which has two heads at opposite ends of the body. When it tries to move, both heads try to go in opposite directions.

In the 1967 film, the pushmi-pullyu was instead portrayed as a double-headed llama.

(* It could have also been an alpaca. There's a joke there based on PAC's somewhere. Also the fowl spitting habits of camelids of all types is as notorious as the Clinton's use of their oral capacity for their aggressive tendencies)

Romney/Huckabee unite please!!
Zel Miller's party left him and mine is leaving me. McCain is not steamrolling, but due to stupid rules, and Evangelical fanatics, McCain is taking South Carolina (2/3 of her people voted against McAmnesty) with 33 percent, Florida nearly the same way, except surprise, the huge majority of Johns votes came from Cubans and Hispanics. Fred had no stomach for the fight. Only after Romney is gone and the Regan conservatives have left Huckabee in McCains dust will the true Republicans realize the GOP is gone.Many of us who believe in the rule of law, cannot vote Huckabee over destroying public property and states evidence. If outgoing Gov. Blount did that here in Missouri where he is being sued by a former staffer, he would be hung. Only in the home of Hillary and Tucker, do we have this level of corruption!
http://www.judicialwatch.org/judicial-watch-announces-list- washington-s-ten-most-wanted-corrupt-politicians-2007

Goodbye GOP, Hello Unites States of Mexico. Mike you finished behind Rudy in Fla. Give up the delusion and mend fences with Romney. What could a Romney/Huckabee ticket do? How about keep Hillary out of the Casa Blanca? How about stop McCain-Kennedy? Otherwise we nominate a Republican McGovern candidate, then when the Dems have full control, "The Great Society" will look like a kids game. Wake up Republicans!!
Mike can convince Mitt of the Fairtax. We all win.

McCain, Clinton, Obama;
Whats the difference? All of them want wide open borders. All of them want to expand the federal government. All of them are against tax cuts.

I will stay home before I'd vote for any of them.

VDH quotes that tired old
canard about the 82% rating from the ACU. Victor, just like Mclame that rating is OLD news. It is based on the pre-Maverick McLame check his rating for last year want you. Check his rating for gouging conservatives in the eye. Yes he SAYS he sorry for amnesty, while he names a foreign agent as an advisor. Yes he says he is for the tax cuts, while the only reason they are NOT permanent is he and about 10 others like him.

Yes, VDH, he SAYS a lot and he means NONE of it. In short he is a liberal Neocon liar and if nominated the Republican Party will die.

VDH
If it's only important to see (R) after a President's name than to want a President who will do the right things...then I guess this makes sense. However, I always thought the election was about more than a cheap scorecard...there's an entire term of office after it's over, you know.

People are always saying you're such a great intellect and conservatives should look up to you. So far I'm not impressed. Seems you should be smart enough to want more than a chest-thumping 'we won, neener-neener Democrats' out of the election.

To Doug re 1:05 AM Post
Doug, it is false that John McCain has disdain for the religious right. In 2000, John McCain, in frustration over some hardball attacks by certain religious right figures, lashed out at two of them. But McCain never attacked religious right conservatices themselves, and since then, McCain appeared with one of the two religious right leaders at an event.

McCain comes from a military family in which serving country and God are paramount. John McCain Sr was CincPac during the Vietnam War and was known to pray on his knees an hour a day. Senaot McCain does not wear his Christian religion on his sleeve, but it is there.

VDH Is Right
All of you posters who say that you won’t vote for John McCain over Hillary Clinton are damn fools showing an absurd amount of political immaturity and stupidity. Hillary Clinton is an anti-military socialist who will increase government spending, promote pro-abortion policies, seek outright amnesty in immigration, withdraw and accept defeat in Iraq, pursue appeasement policies in foreign affairs and nominate left wing judges to the federal bench. John McCain is a pro-life fiscal conservative who has served his country as a naval combat avaiator and P.O.W., who has been and is a fiscal hawk on cutting government spending, who has been right about supporting the Iraq War even when it was politically unpopular, who accepts the judgment of the majority of Americans that law enforcement must come first in immigration, who is by far the best candidate to be the next Commander in Chief and who pledged to the Federalist Society in January 2007 and thereafter to nominate strict constructionist judges to the federal bench.

Al of the polls show John McCain alone among Republicans beating Hillary and Obama. All the other Republican candidates lose by wide margins, with Romney losing by the widest margins.

Who Won the Debate?
Romney, McCain clash on conservative values

MSNBC-Republican Mitt Romney said John McCain used dirty tricks by suggesting shortly before the Florida primary that the former Massachusetts governor wanted a deadline for withdrawing U.S. troops from Iraq, as the two men squared off in a spirited debate Wednesday night.

Coming 24 hours after McCain defeated him in the Florida election, Romney vented his frustrations over the Arizona senator’s claims.

WATCH VIDEO

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/who-won-the-debate

In politics,
all that has ever mattered is winning, and all that every candidate has ever cared about is his or her winning. Sure, the Clintons are ruthless, but they don't hold a candle to Karl "Black Baby" Roverer.

SJDoc, I have to
agree with PalDusty, your profane, racist remarks are way over the line. While many Paul fans are a bit exciteable, you probably should not have the right to vote. I don't think Ron Paul would care for you.

Hillary Hanson's Vast Right Wing Cnsprcy
Hillary Hanson:

Quit blaming conservatives and moderate Independents like me for your guy Wacky Jack's deficiencies. Article IV, Section 4 of the Constitution REQUIRES the federal government to protect the states from invasion. McCainiac leads the invasion of 25 million illegal aliens and terrorists, hires Juan "Mexico First" Hernandez (Vicente Fox's close advisor) as a consultant to drum up illegal alien illegal votes, and actively encourages illegal aliens to sabotage Republican caucuses and primaries, as they just did in Florida. Your guy is a sellout. On top of it he admits he has no knowledge of economics, so the cost of his proposed Hundred Years War in the Middle East means nothing to him. Any little jerks out there worried about a draft? He should be removed from office, not nominated.

Just to refresh your memory (if that is what is the problem), in 1986, BOTH the establishment political parties PROMISED there would never be another amnesty, and strict immigration laws were passed. Instead of enforcing the laws, globalist sellouts Bush I, Clinton, and Bush II refused to enforce the law, and actively aided the illegal alien invasion! Now that they have ruined the country economically and left us helpless against the invaders, the establishment operatives push globalist sellout McCainiac on us to solve "our" problem. You jump on the garbage truck and shill for this unstable RINO.

Thanks for helping the country hit rock bottom under neo-con McCainiac or neo-com Clinton!

Those that are so against
McCain are beginning to sound like the dems who hate Bush with such blind fury that it clouds what little judgement they may have.

To say you will sit it out even if that results in the hildabeast getting elected strikes me as hardly a principled decision.

It sounds like your spending a little too much time listening to El Rushbo who I believe is rooting for her in order to boost his ratings.

If the clintons get elected we conservatives will be set back 30 years. Look at the big picture..presidents come and go, we need the Supreme Court to protect what we believe in, the Constitution.

If they get to load it up with damfools who support their ridiculous idealogy, we're toast.

We need a guy ready from day one to fight the islamos, a smart terrorist looks to attack when your guard is down, like the changing of the guard and some newbie coming aboard with no experience, like romney.

Clinton or obama will turn this country into a socialized state that we will never be able to correct...has any of LBJ's stupidity ever been overturned?

We must be realistic, Reagan wasn't perfect, TR wasn't perfect and Mac isn't either, the guy we all envision doesn't exist and if he did, he couldn't get elected in the America of today.

I trust McCain, I've met and served in his old man's Navy and I've met Mccain a few times. I know some of his POW friends who support him totally, these are the folks you should be listening to, not that gas bag Rush who seems to have some personal axe to grind.

Mac will be our nominee guys, we need to put aside any animus and rally around him to make sure that our grandkids still have a country to grow up in.

I want them safe and not cash cows for the dems and their socialism.



McCain helps conservative talk radio

I agree with SJ Doc
. . . although I might have stated it in a little milder terms.

What really sets me on fire is McCain's involvement in that despicable bunch that put together the "Comprehensive Immigartion Reform Bill" (and was actually a co-sponsor . . . with Teddy Kennedy) that was put together with La Raza(The Race . . . a Mexican lobying group) in the meetings with input . . . and the American people kept in the dark intrentionally . . the bill was then brought to the floor for a vote that needed to take place immediately. There was to be no amending . Did you hear that . . NO AMENDING . . . take it or leave it, as it is, in 24 hours.

My God, that's tantamount to getting it rammed right down our throats. Fortunately the American people mucked up the whole works and literally shut down the phone and internet systems in Washington and put a stop to this nonsense.

And now McCain's lying about Romney's stance on troop withdrawal from Iraq.

The litany goes on and on. I will not be a "go along to get along" (R) and watch that back-stabber pander to the Left.

If McCain is the nominee - you will get a (D) president - bank on it. Too many conservatives will NOT HOLD THEIR NOSE to vote for this man.

®


Seawolf Is Right On ...
Other than never having met McCain, and serving in the USMC rather than the Navy, I am in total agreement with our post. Look I'm a life long (50 + years) conservative & I certainly don't agree with Mr. McCain on every issue. And, yes, I get pretty angry with RINOS. Having said that the idea that people who love their country would do ANYTHING to put Mrs. Clinton or Mr. Obama in teh Executive over Mr. McCain is a classic case of cutting off your nose to spite your face. It ain't a perfect world. There is no perfect conservative candidate. Keep waiting for one & all we do is hand the keys to the country to a gaggle of liberal morons AND loose 100% of our ability to influence events. Of course those conservatives who sit this one out on "principle" will have their principles intact ... at the price of their nation. Semper Fi.

The Perfect Conservative.
If it comes down to McCain and Hillary, which it will, I will vote for McCain. He's not the perfect conservative, but neither are most of you in spite of what you write about yourselves. McCain will appeal to the moderate voters who are disinclined to vote for Hillary. What other Republican does? Huckabee? Huckabee comes across as a religious kook. Yes, he's articulate, but ever since he ran that cross commercial he's been circling the drain. Romney strikes me as a good man, but he will be shredded by the Clinton's. McCain can hold his own and win. Frankly boys and girls, he's our only chance against the Hildebeast. So, in spite of the fact that he's not the perfect conservative like some of you, I will hold my nose and cast my ballot for him.

SeaWolf
SealWolf said "It sounds like your spending a little too much time listening to El Rushbo who I believe is rooting for her in order to boost his ratings."

Rush hardly needs his ratings boosted. That is just silly.

And implying that we spend too much time listening to Rush in order to get our "marching orders" seems to imply that some of us are incapable of thought of our own.

You chose whomever you like, but please refrain from assuming the rest of us don't know what we're tallking about.

Phil Byler
I dont know McCains private position on religion, I do remember his public attitude and actions.

My dislike of McCain is directly related to his, not anyone's elses image of him that was carefuly developed over decades in the national limelight by McCain himself.

I'll vote for who ever turns out to be the nominee for the republicans, becouse as so many have pointed out it is the logical thing to do however it dosent mean I have to like it. It certainly dosent mean I have to accept one candidate over the other during and before the primary phase of the '08 election is over.

PalDusty - Read the title...
--
...of Dr. Hanson's article, perceive it's subject, take your brain-dead recommendations, engrave 'em on sheet metal, fold it until it's all corners, and shove it up your cloaca.

The Republican leadership - and the majority of Republican voters in the primary elections thus far - seem determined to go into this presidential election not only to lose to their "bipartisan" colleagues across the aisle, but to go down like a cageful of weasels getting shoved into a barrel of dirty water.

The nomination of McCain - "because it's his turn" or because he's the RINO selected as "Sucker We'd Most Like to Punch" by the editorial staff of The New York Times - is the *SAME GODDAMNED MISTAKE* made by the Republican Party in 1996, when we had Bubba at his most vulnerable, and could've thrown his semen-spurting flaunted genitalia out of the Oval Office.

Instead, we nominated Yet Another Conscienceless Weasel - an old-line "Rockefeller Republican," Bob Dole - and let Waco Willie slime his way back into power.

And people like *YOU* are doing the same goddamned thing again.

Well, hell. It's clear that *YOU* won't learn.

If the Republican Party is going to lose another presidential election, better to do it the way Goldwater did - standing on solid, well-differentiated conservative principles that starkly and inescapably contrast against the malignancy of the Democrat Party - than trying to "Me Too" bottom-feeding socialist bastiches like Mocha Marvin and Bubba's Ball-and-Chain.

Do you understand this, or does somebody have to come up in your face and hit you squarely with a brick?

You clearly can't *THINK*. Better you spend the rest of '08 in a post-concussive coma.

--

lets face it
our country has produced no real leaders. only those that love themselves more than anything else are left to choose from. it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

lets face it
our country has produced no real leaders. only those that love themselves more than anything else are left to choose from. it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Chopper John - Same to you. Squared.
--
I'm not just Italian-American; I'm *SICILIAN*-American.

My people have spent *THOUSANDS* of years in slavery or peonage. Remember the movie "Spartacus"?

That's *OUR* version of "Roots."

And I call Obama "Mocha Marvin" because he's about as Black as *I* am.

Like most African-Americans who have benefitted by race-based preferential policies, he's one of that portion of the identified population who would've prospered *WITHOUT* racial set-asides and artificial supports.

The only significant impact of such policies has been to make "Mellow Yellow" slicksters like Obama a more pallatable way for Black-hating white employers to "meet their quota."

Read Sowell or Williams on the subject, why don'tcha?

And I'm "racist," eh?

Sheesh.

--

Stop Waving the Flag
John McCain is not a war hero.

War heroes do not get shot down and then spend six years in a POW camp. Real heroes get shot down and then break out of POW camps, dragging their wounded comrades behind them as they go.

War heroes do not run around reminding everyone that they are a war hero and expect deference for their claims. Real heroes move on and get busy with the next task at hand.

John McCain, like John Kerry, is just a man who wants to use his former "service" as a shield to protect him from all charges. He does so at great peril to his campaign.

Your backing of John McCain
Hi Mr. Hanson.

I believe you mistake John McCain's exemplary military service for excellence in government.

First, and foremost, is his Campaign Finance Reform Bill (Incumbent Reelection Guarantee Bill), where John McCain does a full frontal assault on the Bill of Rights. He restricts free speech and the free press guarantees 2 months before a general election and one month before a primary election.

Second, there's his McCain-Kennedy abrogation of the Constitutional imperative of defending the borders. If he's such a military whizbang guy, how come he's having trouble closing our borders in a time of war with an insidious and murderous enemy?

Third, Mr. "straight-talk" is also a member of the Keating 5. How come no one mentions this (especially in the news media)? Is it so he can defeat his fellow Republicans and then, when he's running against Evita, he gets blasted in the final by what was omitted in the primary?

Fourth, Mr. "Boots-on-the-ground" in Bosnia could have NEEDLESSLY gotten a lot of our guys killed. I haven't seen all these bodies that were supposed to have been buried in mass graves. Don't you think by now they'd have showed up?

SJ Doc

I don't recall Chopper John calling you a racist. I think he was suggesting that you're a jerk -- a perfect fit for the Ron Paul brigade.

Stop and ask yourself if perhaps the reason that your candidate, in spite of his steadfast principles and personal brilliance, is stuck at 3% is a at least partly a function of the constantly offensive comments coming from his supporters.

It all depends on the ROP
If the Religion of Peace is as stupid as it has proved to be so far, it will over-reach itself in its eagerness to influence the election and launch another 9/11 type attack before the Conventions. This will, as always, have the precise REVERSE effect they are looking for, which would be to throw the support of all rational beings to the only man willing to kick Islamic Butt: John McCain.

If the ROP had any brains at all, or anyone on their team that had actually made any kind of study of the USA and what would influence it most, what they would do is wait til after Obama is elected and THEN hit us for all they are worth -- not by blowing up the stock exchange or military bases (Obama hates that as much as they do) but by launching a series of concentrated attacks on daycare centers. Can you picture Obama standing in the ruins Feeling Your Pain, while another one bites the dust three miles away? Yes, you can. So can I -- and I hate the very idea.

Fortunately, the ROP has NEVER shown any signs of doing anything rational, so I am betting they will choose Option A and guarantee us President John McCain.

justpaul -- 9:40 a.m. post

Been watching the "Rambo" movies again, have you?

spin the big wheel
Yes, there might be a scintilla of difference in terms of judges or other appts. from Mac (the knife) vs Hilabeast but after awhile conservatives get tired of voting for "3rd or 4th choices. Mac duff will be Bush III - only worse - his temper and bully attitude will not make foreign policy easier & his rollover tricks for the TED will eliminate our sovereignty.
So we have another half-assed presidency instead of a socialist-democratic one.
Quite an acheivement! We better use the next 3 years to build a Federalist Faction that can not be pushed away and will not quit, like Fred before the major battles even occur.
God help us for the storm we are about to receive from rinos and socialists, may we endure and rebuild the conservative movement.
jchoffman
half moon bay, ca

Sep12Rep - Re: Chopper John
--
The direct quote of Chopper John's shallow-end-of-the-gene-pool remark runs:

"...your profane, racist remarks are way over the line."

Having yet another RTFM moment, are ya?

I suspect that among the several reasons why Dr. Paul is being reported as having polled in a tiny minority (besides the report solicit certain pre-determined results, and are dishonestly reported as well as dishonestly designed; the principles of Evidence-Based Medicine are most assuredly *NOT* being exercised by these pollsters) is that the messages of Paul's campaign scare the hell out of those people - nominally Republican and overtly "Liberal" alike - who depend for their lifestyles and whatever serves them for a sense of personal validity upon the aggrandizement of government as the Mother and Father of all us poor, benighted, incompetent-to-run-our-own-lives "Little People" out here in the hustings.

If the MSM can't report honestly and completely about Ron Paul, it's because these arrogant, hair-spray-overdosed chattering chimps *FEAR* him.

The same way they feared Goldwater back in 1964.

And well they ought to.

Finally, if you find my comments to RINO dimwits "offensive," it's plain that you've never had experience with one of the delights of rural living.

Specifically, getting the attention of a thick-headed mule.

Y'see, first you pick up a two-by-four....

--

Yawn
Are we surprised at this column? Yet another waste of words telling all of us "sheeple" that we NEEEEEEED McCain. He really must have shakey numbers for the RNC to bombard us day in and day out with this "He's the only one who can win" junk.
What I would like to see is a republican cadidate that doesn't just echo the dems with a "just slightly to the right from Lenin" plan for the social ills. But alack and alas--all politicians are mangy lap dogs who will lick anyones boots to maintain or gain the power to which they are accustomed. If this nomination field is any indicator--we are all, republican, and democrat, done for.
And a note to authors--we may HAVE to vote for McCain--but the last time I checked we have freedom of political speech in this country, enough with the "quiet down" the unhappy masses articles.

litmus test for McAmnesty
"Straight Talk" Express Positions:

1) Buddies up with far lefties Feingold and Teddy
the Swimmer... admires Shrillary
2) Opposed tax cuts, and Justice Alito as "too
conservative"
3) Sponsored the Scamnesty Bill and tried to kill
anti-ILLEGAL initiatives in Az., and calls 74%
of America "racist and xenophobic" for
opposing it
4) Favors neoCON agenda of staying in Iraq
forever, even as it costs us $7 billion per
month already
5) Is fighting currently to give your S.S. to
ILLEGALS (Jorge will sign it)

McAmnesty a conservative?! He is an open border, neoCON, RINO!!! Been there done that with Presidente Jorge! Another Hobson's Choice in the making as Reagan's party morphs ineluctably into RINOS.

Or...
...it sounds like the perfect election cycle for a third-party candidate to win!

How Amusing
"Been watching the "Rambo" movies again, have you?"

Funny you should say that, given that the hero in his own mind has trotted out the Hollywood hero to support him in his quest.

When was the last time the Congressional Medal of Honor was awarded to a soldier solely for having survived in a POW camp?

When was the last time the Congressional Medal of Honor was awarded to a pilot for being shot down?

John McCain is no more a hero than John Kerry; maybe less. At least Kerry supposedly did save someone. Can McCain say that?

PS Go Ron Paul!
Paul should run third party!

justpaul

I didn't know that John McCain had been awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor! Or is that just another instance of over-the-top logic on your part?

Being a former POW is not itself a reason to support someone for public office. But your suggestion that Sen. NcCain's service to our country is something less than worthy is bothersome, to say the least.

And equating 6 years in a Vietnamese pow camp (McCain) with 4 months for filming himself on a swift boat (Kerry) is borderline slander.

good article...
both major party's top tier candidates are so atrocious. Hillary Clinton is a dispicable human being, but she's going to win... because the GOP has sold out entirely. No pro-war Repub can win, to be sure.

Allowing the neocons (many of whom were former Democrats) to control foreign policy has killed the GOP. The GOP Establishment deserves Hillary. Unfortunately, I do not... but I'll have to suffer with her like everyone else... because the GOP is such a lying bunch of scum.

It's time for the Republican Party to fragment. They stand for nothing and no longer deserve conservatives' support. Nominating someone like McCain just solidifies it.

What happened To Conservatism ?
{Am} I the only one out there that is noticing that all of the so called" Conservative Talking Heads "have Crowned McAMNESTY King !
It started out with Newt and Fred Barn's on Fox News , Then Bill Kristol Article with the weekly standard .Now Novak and Handson . Even the Liberal Media is talking sweet like about McNut .
Makes you more than wonder as many RePub's are saying WE NEED MODERATES and Conservatism Died along with Ronald Reagan .
I Pray not !

JustPaul
"War heroes do not get shot down and then spend six years in a POW camp. Real heroes get shot down and then break out of POW camps, dragging their wounded comrades behind them as they go."

I've always said that Ron Paul's biggest problem is he has far too many nitwits on his side. It makes people with common sense want to stay away in droves. Those two sentences you wrote qualify as some of the dumbest I have EVER read on these forums.

Both of McCain's arms were broken.

How much fighting and dragging do you think YOU could do with two broken arms? He also had a serious leg injury. He also lost 100 pounds in captivity. The "medical" treatment they gave him in Hanoi almost killed him.

Also, he's a WHITE guy. Kind of hard to sneak back all those miles (check a map and see where Hanoi is in relation to friendly lines in South Vietnam) when you are white and everyone else is asian, don't you think?

Tell you what. Dress up in a KKK suit, break both your arms, injure your leg, lose 100 pounds and have a taxi cab drop you off in the middle of Watts or Compton.

We'll be generous. You can have a rifle or pistol. Now, fight your way from Watts or Compton, dressed in a Klan suit and WALK to Sacramento.

Think you'll make it?

The OTHER option is to stop writing things that make you look like an imbecile.



McCain is not my first choice
But if he is the GOP nominee, I'm voting for him. I do not want to live under socialism. I do not want to risk the disaster of a Hillary or Obama presidency. If one of those two get elected, we could end up with another terrorist attack on US soil with thousands more Americans killed. McCain, for all his issues and problems, cares deeply about keeping America safe and when push comes to shove he will do it.

I am glad Ron Paul is in the debates - he is intelligent and while I disagree with him on some issues, he articulates some very good points. Same with Huck - he forces the other candidates to remember that social conservatives count too.

All that being said, Romney is my first choice right now, and I think he could probably beat Hillary with the right VP choice; however, if McCain is our nominee, as seems likely, I will vote for him. He will be particularly palatable with a Fred Thompson or Huck as VP.

ex-Wyomingite - you are right
here is a misstatement by VDH.
"Despite McCain's 82 percent ranking by the American Conservative Union"

this is a lifetime rating. his ratings for the last 5 years is in the 60's. yeah, some conservative.

i do not think that the GOP cares about the conservative vote. they will lose that vote and give the presidency to the democrats.

that is fine. there is not enough of a difference between mccain and either hillary/obama to back mccain.

you think mccain will pick good judges. HA!

he will pick those judges that will get him praise from his friends in the press. they will probably be center-left at best ala kennedy/souter.

the GOP elite are banking on hillary being the nominee, but it is not a foregone conclusion. either way, mccain vs hillary or mccain vs obama, it will be two open border candidates vying for the POTUS.


He Wasn't; That's the Point
John McCain wasn't awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor, which is given to true heroes rather than grandstanding jacka$$es.

And I do think it's fair to compare 6 years in a POW camp to 4 months active duty if that 4 months actually included saving someone else's life. How many months of actual duty did McCain serve before he crashed his plane?

But I didn't call Kerry a hero; I simply said that if he truly did save someone else's life, he's more of one than McCain.

And be warned. Once McCain has the nomination tied up, other soldiers in that POW camp will come out of the woodwork to claim that his behavior was far from the story he tells now.

But go ahead and jump on this "War Hero" bandwagon. Just don't blame me when the wheels come off. We don't need some liberal leaning dimwit who, once upon a time, a long, long time ago, did something honorable. We need a leader for the 21st Century committed to doing the right and honorable thing now. John McCain is not that person.

I can understand...
why some would be against Obama on policy issues but what in his life constitute him being referred to as scum? Hilliary, I completely agree with is scum - and I say that as a registered Democrat.

Hillary may win the nomination but I probably won't support her in the general election. For all those who say a Democrat or Republican will destroy this country... please. You Righties hated Clinton and we're still here and I believe Bush was a disaster and we're still here.

America will continue and it will not become a socialist nation and terrorist will not destroy our way of life. Some of you guys need to have yourselves checked out to see if you still have a pair.

As far as I'm concerned this election is a wash because anything will be better than Bush. I'll give the benefit of the doubt to the individual that wins to see how they govern. I will give them a year before I rip them apart.

Schwarzenegger endorsing McCain
As a California resident I can safely say that if I'd been considering in any way voting for McCain, this news ALONE would make me change my mind.

California has been destroyed by the transformation of the state GOP into the Dem-Lite Party, and I WILL NOT in any way aid in that transformation at the national level.

Couple that with McCain's endorsements by the NY Times and RINO Rudy, and just like his tenure in the Senate, we see McCain hanging around with all the wrong people.

What, in any of this, would assuage the fears of conservatives that just like in the past, as soon as he's sworn in McCain wouldn't just flip his middle finger at conervativism and just march to his own "maverick" tune?

He'd turn right around to his old buddies Russ Feingold and John Kerry and Ted Kennedy, and we'd see an avalanche of terrible legislation come pouring down the pike. These are guys he takes pride in having "worked with" as a Senator; all of a sudden he's going to just kiss them off, and start fighting AGAINST them?

Ye-e-e-e-a-a-a-a-hhh, ri-i-i-i-ight........

huckabee
I'm far right of Attilla the Hun - but Huckabee is the third party candidate that destroyed the Republican party- we DO NOT need another Jimmy what's his name.
The huck has taken away the votes needed to defeat Mc nut in the nest - what a total waste.
This guy is a far left nutcake in everything but religion - and I'm not convinced about that much either.
When the shrill registers every illegal alien the Republican party will dissapear for a century-if the Republic lasts that long-which is doubtfuk

McCain
John has for the last ten years running for pres.He has made a calculation that he needs dem and indy votes to get elected.He is counting on alot of repubs voting for him regardless of his anti conservative actions.Like the dems the repubs have their yellow dog voters.Arnold has endorsed him now that has convinced me he is the man.Yeh right. GMAFB

rober, robert
the constitution was never intented to be a document so obtuse that it required brilliant oracles to unlock its mysteries.

it is a plainly written document that is easily interpreted by almost anyone eho can read. the brilliance that is necessary is to determine the outcome and shoehorn it into the penumbra of the constitution.

what is really pathetic is that we wait with baited breath for these "rulers in black" to use their great power to consult the "god of the constitution" to determine whether a ruling is constitutional or not. i wish it came with a light show. they do not use the constitution for anything unless the doormat is missing and they need to wipe their feet.

the people really are sheeple.

No comback
coming from Romney to an obvious lie by McCain is a telling sign that he can't do it either. Seems to me that McCain wants it more than any of the others. He, like most politicians is willing to do anything to get elected. Paul had my vote until he actually was given a chance to throughly explain his view on the war without anyone rolling their eyes, he went off on some non-sensible rant that sounded like he wants to build a wall around the entire country and do nothing but read the constitution. Rudy showed his touted judgment by not participating in any primaries to any degree until Florida. Great strategery their Rudy. And Thomson sits back and "Ah Shucks" himself right into oblivion. Now then there is Huckabee. What a smart thing for him to do in proposing a amendment to the constitution regarding the bible and at the same time saying that his faith would not interfere with his politics. Yea, right!

If we end up with McCain, we deserve him. Yep, he was a war hero and I guess that is his way of saying that makes him qualified for Pres. Sounds like a Kerry moment to me. Remember John Kerry was in Vietnam, just ask him.

Thus, SJ DOC, that is VDH's point. We don't want to win this thing. And by the way If Paul should pull out the miracle of all miracles, maybe you and your stupid mule could stand at the waters edge and cuss the terrorists back to the desert, unless the mule is sick of you too. I guess that would be our defense strategy. Wait though. Is that before or after you deport anyone who doesn't agree with you. Get your own blog.

Why Is Everyone Surprised?
Come on folks, the two parties are not about principles, they are about power, period. They are run by elites who favor the internationalist agenda that is designed to bring America into line with the rest of the world.

In order to accomplish this, they are squandering our resources, weakening our military, selling out our sovereignty, and mortgaging the future. They have rigged the election process to assure themselves continued power, and the Constitution, rule of law, and will of the people are convenient soundbites brought out at the appropriate moments to dupe the people once again.

It is time to wake up! If we elect another elite from either party, we will assure ourselves of more of the same because doing the same thing over and over never has and never will produce a different result.

Still, many will fall for the big lie that says only "they" have the wisdom, experience, and knowledge to govern. That is the old technique of telling a lie continually until it becomes accepted as true.

If you want to see the truth, I urge you to visit my website, JOEOLIVAFORPRESIDENT.ORG, and see in much more detail how we have been scammed by the elites. Check out the site, why not? The elites have already stolen our inheritance, when exactly are we going to get the guts to stand up and reclaim what is rightfully ours and our children's birthright? Anyone out there with an answer? Thanks, Joe


TO MODERATE MARK !


ModerateMark writes:

I have figured out by looking at the polls (exit) that there is a difference between the nutty right and the GOP...

Moderate Mark my Arse .You make George Soros , Move on. org , Teddy Kennedy and Nancy Polosi look like Devout Conservatives !
You need some serious help or to stop your out right Lying ! Are you in the Betty Fords Clinic now ?

That's a lot of lipstick
you put on that pig, Mr. Hanson, but he's still a pig.

I don't trust McCain AT ALL. His turnaround on illegal immigration is all for show -- on one side of his face he gives a wink wink to the Republican blueblood/open-border types, while with the other side he mouths sweet nothings to the conservative base promising border security.

What a pompous liar!

Where in your article do you address:

McCain/Lieberman
McCain/Feingold
His lack of support for energy independence by refusing to drill in Anwar
The Gang of 14 OUTRAGE
His seeking to grant constitutional protections to terrorists by closing Guantanamo and placing jihadists in American prisons
His dissing Alito's conservative credentials
His contempt for evangelicals (in remarks made in the 2000 primaries) -- only now to try and make nice with them so they'll forget what he REALLY thinks about them
His using the Federalism argument to stop a Federal Marriage Amendment (the lawyers must love him for that one)

And the list goes on. Personally, I'm a lifelong Republican and I DESPISE the man.

If he gets the nod, I will be making a write-in vote for Romney, thank you very much.





The "choice", such as it is...
What no one here, nor VDH, has addressed is why we are having this conversation to begin with. That is, arguing about candidates like McCain, Romney, Huckabee, RINOs all based on their past performance and statements (whether they remember them or not)? Sheesh.

As for the Dimocrats, their choices are nothing new. Whether it's Shrillary, Osama Obama or the Breck Girl, they are all pretty much the same, mouthing the same "vote for me and I'll give you largesse from the public treasury" platitudes that every Dem candidate has spouted for well over 30 years (remember George McGovern?). This is because they have all been closet socialists, and the electorate knew it, which is why they lost most of the time. The only reason we even know who the Clintons are is thanks to Ross Perot.


The "choice", such as it is...con't
What is happening is that the voter demographic in this country is changing. The World War II generation, who in large measure was responsible for keeping the White House in Republican hands over most of the past 60 years, is dying out, and has been replaced by the "baby boom" generation.

And the baby boomers, as spoiled and poorly educated as many of them are, even the ones who call themselves Republicans, are responsible for why we have such a pisspoor choice of candidates as we do. Republican or not, many are still of the "Uncle Sugar will take care of us" mindset, not to mention being scared to death of being called a racist/bigot/homophobe/frog fornicator if they don't toe the PC line, whether it's about amnesty for illegals, "gay rights" or any of the other hot-button PC "issues" the Commiecrats and their media lapdogs will fling at them like monkey poo at the slightest provocation.

The only genuinely conservative candidate the Repubs had was Fred Thompson, and he was thrown under the bus in short order. He ran his ads, did well in the debates (if you bothered to listen to what he was saying). But the boomers didn't want to hear it, so he's out of it.

Ron Paul does not even enter into it; he knows he's done, which is why he's already running ads for re-election to his congressional seat down here. He's also a moonbat libertarian, which is why his candidacy was DOA to start with.

So what are we left with? Flip-flopping RINOs like McCain or Romney (Huckabee, a RINO also, is done as well; he just hasn't figured it out yet apparently).

Sad, really...

BrianR
As long as they are all in California, Get Governor Castrator, Hairless Hillary and Juan McAmnesty together as the latter day 3 Stooges.

Juan ‘Moe’ McAmnesty: Alright, you guys, I have only one order for our border guards. SPREAD OUT! What do you think?

Hairless ‘Larry’ Hillary: I try to think, but nothing happens?!

Governor Castrator ‘Curly’: WHOO! WHOO! WHOO! Maria tells me what to think! WHOO! WHOO! WHOO!

question for Robert...
I always enjoy your posts, but I have to ask you this: where do you think McCain demonstrates any level of improvement over the status quo? How will he change anything for the better. I don't see anything being different under President McCain than under President Bush.

The point is likely moot, though. Whoever wins the Dem nomination will be the next president. The voters simply will not support any Republican who's pro-war. Simple as that.

Thanks, Bush, neocons, and the idiots who supported them. Because of you, we'll have at least 4 years of President Hillary. And what's sad is she may not even be as bad... but I'm bracing myself for the worst.


Yet another king
I actually took a look at Joe for pres and concluded that he wants to be king. I think it quite telling that conservatives always seem to invoke the name of Jefferson, talk about freedom, liberty, justice, and the Constitution and then immediately proceed to appoint a king. The Joe site is typical in that it starts out talking about how we have lost control of OUR government and then goes straight to an authoritarian (P)resident that acts as king. In America the (P)resident holds a veto pen and the Senate represents the very wealthy so as to prevent the populist House from getting out of hand. That is the way the nation is actually defined by its constitution. The Senate and the (P)resident slow things down that would not be in the best interest of the nation until reason prevails. But we (the real people) have no representation in our government any more. This is not fixed by (P)residential decree. It is fixed by expanding the membership of OUR House of Representatives. For an example see http://GreaterVoice.org/extend

A Question, VDH
Why do the Clint's nasty tactics bother you when the snarky John McLame you support spent most of the debate last night insisting that Mitt Romney was in favor of a timetable for withdrawal from Iraq when he isnt. McLame sat there like your old, demented Uncle John yelling "Timetables!" every time he was asked to explain one of his many LIBERAL positions. And they're more than positions, in several instances he wrote the liberal legislation in question. If he's such a clean conservative why wont he explain the Gang Of Fourteen or McLame-Feingold, McLame-Lieberman or McLame-Kennedy to us. His nasty, snarky, senile, dishonest presentation will give the election to whatever Democrat gets the nomination. this is Bob Dole stripped of his likeability and wit and left with a chicken-wattle neck and a hot temper. I have never voted for a Democrat for president but if the dinosaurs of the party foist this liberal cadaver on me I'll be voting for Obamarama.

PalDusty - What's the purpose...?
--
...of foreign policy?

Of course, that's a question that RINOs never consider, much less attempt to answer.

At base, why should the federal government waste taxpayer dollars on doing *ANYTHING* anywhere outside its jurisdiction?

To facilitate trade? Nonsense. The feds do more - with quotas, tariffs, "fair trade" agreements and other such bullpuckey - to *INHIBIT* trade in favor of the politicians' campaign contributors (and select influential constituents) than ever they do to increase the exchange of goods and services outside U.S. borders.

To address actively and potentially hostile foreign powers? Yes, that's a legitimate extention of the national defense function.

But do the presently exercised strategies and tactics represent the *ONLY* way (or even the most effective way) to accomplish such objectives?

And are the objectives even accurately defined?

To protect the property rights of American citizens? General Smedley Butler's depiction of his Marine Corps work as a "protection" thug for National City Bank and Brown Brothers and Standard Oil (see his remarks on interventionism, 1933) say all you need to hear on the subject from the perspective of a *REAL* decorated war hero.

Under present Republican leadership, these matters have not been seriously discussed, much less factored into the determination of U.S. foreign policy.

Not prior to 11 September 2001, and more emphatically not since.

Before you succumb to the idiot propaganda mouthed by terrified and contemptible "Rockefeller Republicans" about Dr. Paul's prescription for sanity and effectiveness in U.S. foreign policy, might you not consider taking the effort to *READ* it?

--

Robert
"What I believe that the Founders were struggling for was a then and even today NOVEL concept ...that the people interpret the law and the law rules."

Don't give me that. Aren't you the same person who defended Roe vs. Wade as a "good decision"? That was a case of the Supreme Court legislating from the bench.

Show me the perfect candidate...
...and I'll show you a Soviet spy groomed solely and expressly for the purpose of getting into the White House and doing as much damage as possible.

There are no perfect candidates. Every politician does or says something we disagree with, and everyone disagrees with something a given politician says or does.

This is not to say that I would endorse (were I that influential) McCain or that I even particularly like him. The problem is that every politician is ... well... a politician. The ones who seem perfect are probably lying, the ones who are decent always have one or more major flaws (like just about everyone on Imigration), the ones who are "electable" are worse than the "decent" ones, and the ones who can't win either sling mud to deflect criticism of their own abyssmal platform onto their oponent's one or two major flaws, or use idiotic strategies like ignoring the early states and concentrating on the "delegate-rich" states like Florida.

I can't decide between Romney and Huckabee because I really haven't been able to distinguish one from the other. I'd probably (but not definitely) prefer them to McCain. But I definitely prefer the lot of them to Hillary and Obama (and I prefer the latter of those two if I had to make the choice. Hilary I trust far less than her husband, and that's saying quite a bit.)

Quite Frankly, McCain v. Hillary makes me significantly less nauseus than Giulianni v. Hillary would have. Sort of like Giants v. Patriots makes me less nauseus than would Cowboys v. Patriots (I admit to being a Redskins fan).

another point of contention...
for Robert: the Founders didn't want rule by the People... i.e. pure democracy/rule by men. They wanted rule by law. The Founders wrote that they didn't anticipate that their Constitution was ideal for all people through the ages, so they left the door open to amend the Constitution... but the amendment process was designed to be slow and deliberate, thereby limiting both the president and Congress from enacting ill-conceived empowering legislation over We the People.

The Founders would be ashamed of us in 2008 for our disrespect for the Constitution. And everyone of them would vote for Ron Paul!

Courts
As a conservative we are not worried about the courts swinging to the left. McCain has assured us (through his actions) that it will take a super majority of 60 Senators to get a nominee through the Senate. After the election of Hillary it will be interesting to see if the fillibuster rule will be supported by Sen. McCain.

I'm confused...
The Clintons(D) and Ted Kennedy (D) support John Kerry(D) in 2004. John Kerry(D)considers John McCain (R) for VP on the D ticket in 2004. John Kerry(D) supports Obama (D)in 2008. John McCain(R)sponsors amnesty legislation with Ted Kennedy(D). Ted Kennedy(D)endorses Obama(D) in 2008 etc. etc.

Townhall is a forum that encourages free speech. VDH tells us to shut up and go with the flow.

It's making me dizzy.

Republican Elite Establishment
Of course McSnide is their choice. He's playing with lobbiests, special interest groups and the business as usual crowd. It's always amazed me why persons believe we need a term limits amendment for any politician. We've got that. It's called the ballot box. A fantasy of mine is to see every citizen, regardless of party affiliation vote in new individuals at every election. Think what that would do to the entrenched professional politician industry. What might it do to the corrupt lobbying industry? How might Washing-scum change? Just a fantasy.

Republican Elite Establishment
Of course McSnide is their choice. He's playing with lobbiests, special interest groups and the business as usual crowd. It's always amazed me why persons believe we need a term limits amendment for any politician. We've got that. It's called the ballot box. A fantasy of mine is to see every citizen, regardless of party affiliation vote in new individuals at every election. Think what that would do to the entrenched professional politician industry. What might it do to the corrupt lobbying industry? How might Washing-scum change? Just a fantasy.

McCain at CPAC
I just heard this morning that John will speak to CPAC in one week. It will be interesting to dissect his words - assuming he doesn't cancel like last time.

OOps
Sorry for the double post.

Another thing - one term
I am thinking McCain will be a one-term POTUS, due to his age, which makes the VP selection all the more interesting. My goals: Win first, get the right person second. The cost of Hillary will be staggering. I even heard someone say they hope she wins and ruins the country (I've had the same thoughts). That is no different than those who want us to lose in Iraq. Let's stay optimistic.

Mike Huckabee
Mike Huckabee is the best candidate. He can actually listen to the question and answer it instead of having to spin it around to fit his prepared remarks. He understands the issues and can speak to them. He's a Conservative but he's "not angry about it".
Mike Huckabee's stand on the issues can be found at mikehuckabee.com.

AGE OF AQUARIUS
THE STARS ARE ALIGNED FOR MCCAIN

..... As far as McCain is concerned the Moon was in the seventh house and Jupiter aligned with Mars ...I don't know if McCain is an Aquarius but eveything has gone right for him and everything has gone wrong for Romney and now it looks like the GOP elites are setting McCain up for a Coronation ...

.....Romney's strategy of spending time and money in the early States worked about as well as Rudy's strategy of lying in the weeds in Florida ...Huckabee's charm and wit gave Mitt the silver in Iowa and Bhutto's assassination set fire to McCain who ended up with all of Giuliani's supporters including Governor Crist ...

.....Giuliani dropping out helps McCain while Huckabee and Paul staying in hurts Romney because they split the conservative vote ...with the power structure elites coalesing behind McCain with endorsements, Crist, Giuliani and Arnold, the situation looks dire for Romney ...

.....If the GOP and RNC knows what is good for them ...they had better convince McCain to get off his high horse and reach out to Conservatives or else he will go the way of Bob Dole .....COLOSSUS

I agree with Phil
You guys talking of staying home are true fools.

Pat yourself on your back all you like but your temper tantrum will hurt the country and culture for decades to come when Hillary starts appointing judges.

If McCain picks a conservative VP, then we could expect him in office in 8 or even 4 years.

Staying home is penny-wise and pound foolish.

Robert
claiming roe falls within the constitution is like saying murder does too. whether you sugar coat it or not, its still killing a baby.

Robert...
Robert writes: Thursday, January, 31, 2008 12:15 PM

Agreed that the extremes believe their form of Big Brother is the optimal... and neither is right. And you're correct that the "you're either with us or against us" mentality permeates both extremes.

As for who I'd support, style has little to do with it. If someone listens to all viewpoints, that's a good start, but I just don't see what McCain's done *of substance* that shows he's better than Bush. If he comes down on the same side as Bush after giving an issue careful consideration, what's the difference to you and me?

On Iraq:

1) McCain voted for it, supported, and is now the champion of it. Never once did he try to question Bush on the data. So that flies in the face of McCain allegedly forcing someone to convince him of something... particularly something as consequential as an elective war.

2) McCain has supported the tactics of the war more than anyone. He's the biggest proponent of the surge and wants to stay there for 100 years, even though we don't have any money to fund it. That sounds as bad as, or even worse than Bush.

I think McCain is unelectable. Even against Hillary... and Hillary is rightfully reviled.

But I will say this on behalf of McCain: at least he did give us the "straight talk" that he didn't understand the economy. I guess he didn't have time to think that little issue through.

Robert...
Robert writes: Thursday, January, 31, 2008 12:24 PM

We may not know what they were thinking, but we can certainly ascertain from their writings what their philosophies were.

On war, Paul voted to go in Afghanistan sans declaration after Americans were attacked by terrorists. TJ elected to attack the Barbary pirates sans declaration after Americans were attacked. Paul wanted a formal declaration of war before waging an *elective* war. That way, we could have debated the pros and cons and made out intentions entirely clear, as the Founders wanted, not this hand-waving "authorization to use force" resolution garbage where no one takes any responsibility.

I never spoke with any of the Founders, but one stance I'm 99% sure TJ, Madison, Washington, Franklin, Paine, et al. would have taken is that the feds can't restrict the rights of the People without (at least) amending the Constitution. I'm also 99% sure all of them would never have embroiled us into foreign entanglements. And finally, I'm 99% sure our Founders wouldn't have stood for giving up personal liberties for the illusion of security. But that's just based on what they wrote. Like I said, I never spoke with them personally.

john mccain
maybe he isn't everybodies idea of a dream date but what are the options. The dims are running two totally empty suits that are only pushing more socialism. The missus clinton continues to run as the experienced candidate based on her role as chief policy maker during bubba's years, although we have to take her word since there is no paper trail, nor will the clintons provide one. And now oblahma is telling everyone he is the second coming of jfk but offering nothing of substance to back up the claim. But this isn't about voting for the lesser of two evils. If mccain gets the nomination he will be in everybodies gunsights. The dims/libs/socialists will attempt to destroy or distort. The clintons will release all their guns at his distruction. But perhaps mccain will realize that he he no longer bound to carry bushes water and will follow repub policy. Mccain may not be perfect, and then what candidate is. But both clinton and oblahma are walking disasters. The country can survive mccain if the party faithful keep him in line, as he will only get four years and must get it right the first time, But can the country survive the far left ideas espoused by both clinton and oblahma. That is the harder consequence to consider

Robert
NO Republican has come to the Presidency without the support of conservatives in modern times. McCain will not break that record.

Robert
"The American people like Roe with the deletion of third term PBA...they embrace it completly."

At the time of the Roe decision, abortion was illegal in most states. The Supreme Court clearly went AGAINST the will of the people in that decision. Not to mention the fact that the case was decided on the basis of perjury and falsified evidence.



ModerateMark...
Great points, ModerateMark. Since both parties stand for only one thing (gaining more power at the People's expense), I've resigned myself to hoping we can only get more bickering, more gridlock, and less things done.

(rant: whenever someone says they want to "get something done in Washington" I'm almost entirely assured to vote against this candidate. I'd be sure to support and vote for any candidate who said "I'm going to DC to stop this runaway train. I'll put the skids on everything that expands government's power.)

The GOP sold out completely from its 1994 message that swept Congress from the Dems. It seems that they only stood for conservative principles when they were in the minority.

I like this lame duck time, just like I loved 1994 - 2000. Notice how good things were during those years? I'm hoping we get more of the same for a while.

Can Mitt and McCain work with Dems? Yes... and that's precisely the problem. They'll both "get a lot done." Unfortunately, it'll likely be things I'd prefer they not "get done."

McCain-Feingold "got it done" by restricting free speech. Romney "got it done" by passing an insipid "assault weapons ban" in Mass (but now claims to be a staunch gun rights guy).

At least if Hillary's president, we'll know we're hosed... and maybe that will force the GOP to become conservative again.

Can McCain win? Maybe against Hillary because she's so incredibly unlikable (and dangerous). But voters are fed up with the GOP and the war, and for good reason.

My money's on Hillary... and if Obama wins the nomination, he'll be a shoo-in over McCain. Any of these options would be a disaster... but at least if it's a Dem, we'll know what we're getting.

Like you wrote, "divided gov't is best thing"... exactly how I feel.

Robert. I suppose the air in Denver
is rare, therefore that could account for the fact you are a space cadet. Either that or you suck helium before posting on TH.

Cincinnati. I can certainly smell what
you're shoveling, but good manners prevent me from describing it on TH. I would rather the Queen of the Damned gets to be POTUS than McCain. That way, when the country goes to hell in a handbasket, the dems won't be able to blame the GOP. Four years from now the country will be screaming for a strong conservative to take over. So I'll vote the way I want, my friend. Not the way you think I or any other conservative should.

Robert...
Robert writes: Thursday, January, 31, 2008 1:24 PM


I also disagreed with McCain on the war... and this is the #1 issue of the day. He didn't call out Bush on the "evidence" and never once protested it. Worse yet, he's been the cheerleader champion of the war and wants to stay in for the next 100 years. The man is certifiably nuts, and I can't support him. He obviously didn't think this invasion through or he just wanted to pander to neocons. Either way, it's quite troubling - he was either too dumb or too chicken to challenge the war when he could have stopped it. We're in it for over $1 TRILLION and 4000 soldiers, and McCain is largely culpable for it.

So, where do we go from here? Under McCain, it's going to be more of the same. What has he proposed he'll do to change course? All he's done is say how great things are going, we need to stand up to Islamic terrorism (and, btw, there were no fundamentalist Muslim terrorists in Iraq before we got there), and cheerlead for Bush. How is this any better?

You write about "winning" in Iraq. I need to know what your criteria for "winning" are and I'd like to know what you think the costs for "winning" will be. And will those costs be worth it?

I don't see us winning anything by staying. It was wrong to go in, and it's wrong to stay. The faster we withdraw, the better. McCain (and Bush) keeps saying we need to "win" there, but never once have I heard anyone challenge him on what his idea of "winning" is.

Max
I'd say if you don't agree with Robert, you've got a pretty good grip on reality.

robert
i have defended you more than once from anne and others but calling max power "far right" is simply not accurate.

he has been consistently willing to listen and debate reasonably with those of us who disagree.


A curious way of thinking
"I would rather the Queen of the Damned gets to be POTUS than McCain. That way, when the country goes to hell in a handbasket, the dems won't be able to blame the GOP."

One of the less subtle ways Ayn Rand designated "worthless" characters in "Atlas Shrugged" was by having them constantly pass the buck and be able to claim that they couldn't be held responsible for whatever disaster or shortcoming was about to happen.

"I can't be held responsible! It's not my fault!"

I think many people here could do with a lot less of this desire to avoid "blame".

You know what un-patriotism is? It isn't a bunch of liberals protesting the war. It is the kind of people who actually believe that America is so fragile and weak that it can go "to Hell in a handbasket" just because somebody does or doesn't win an election.

Anybody who thinks like that can hardly be said to understand his country or his fellow countrymen.

McCain can be worked with. Just as we steered Bush away from Meirs or the Dubai Ports deal or how we killed comprehensive immigration reform, we CAN do the same with McCain. He works for US.

We will not have that kind of influence with Clinton or Obama.

Dittos to MotCrue
For years Bush has been a massive disappointment, his approval numbers have tanked lower than anyone but Carter, and now we're being told we conservatives should hold our noses and vote for someone even WORSE than Bush on all the issues?


That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

I'd rather see the Dem win, as you said, so that when things really get ugly the proper party gets the blame: the Dems. Not the Dem-Lites.

Then maybe the GOP will wake up and support the truly conservative candidates. 2006 sure made no impression!

Further, the bottom line is that all the sreeeching here and on the other threads by the appeasers and GOP cheerleaders is desparation crying out, because they know that without us they'll lose the election in a very big way.

Well, if that happens, don't say you weren't warned.

Cincinnati.
".Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama as President. Is that REALLY better than John McCain as President? "
-----------------------
In a nutshell? YES.

interesting...
statement here:

politicans today are not much different in how they act then those of the early years of The Republic. Adams had his snags with civil liberties...

--I agree that, in principle, Adams represented federal empowerment at the People's expense, but even he would be appalled at the trashing of civil liberties of today. And at least Adams lost because of the Alien and Sedition Acts (which, thankfully, was repealed under TJ). Bush raised Adams one Patriot (sic) Act and one massive quagmire... and still won. And now we have McCain waiting in the wings to continue Bush's disastrous policies.

Oddly enough...I was oppossed to going to Afland. I see no way out there.

--Fascinating. I supported Afland, but you're probably right - it will hard to leave. However, that invasion was necessary, IMO. We had to destroy al-Qaeda's infrastructure first and foremost. And without so many resources going into the Iraq quagmire, Afland might have been achievable.

And to reiterate, McCain is largely to blame for Iraq, and won't stop trying to be the champion of that disaster.


SJDoc,
that was a very accurate quote by you of me, in both words and meaning. Sorry it took so long to get back, but I had to do stuff.

Listen, we in the shallow end of the gene pool like a good dustup as well as anyone, so, let's see, where to begin.

So, you're a Sicilian-American. Who gives a crap. What do you want, a medal? Your 'people' were slaves a 1000 years ago and Kirk Douglas was one of them. So, what do you want for that, reparations? Let me ask you something, old erudite wordsmith. Is Sicily a slave nation now? How are you (dash) Americans doing now? What the hell does any of that have to do with your racist comments? Oh... wait, I get it now.
Because of your Sicilian-Americanism you could possibly be a shade darker of skin and thus no way could you be a racist. Man, this gene pool stuff is a cross to bear.

What you really need, Doc, is to grow up, get an anger management quota, and stop believing that, because you can say goddam more than anybody else, that you impress anyone.

Sheesh indeed.

TheTrucker & ex-Wyomingite
Wow, you two guys took me apart with a bunch of vague generalities; it's hard to know where to start.

Trucker:
"he wants to be king" - We HAVE lost control of OUR government, so I want to be king? How exactly is regularly communicating to the American people what the congress is up to and
trying to get the people more directly involved in what these elites are proposing being an authoritarian President? Presidents don't write legislation, they can only sign it into law or veto it. My pledge to veto un-constitutional laws and treaties makes me a king?

It is the two elite parties that collectively act as a king. They continue to accrue more power and offer the voters a lesser of two evils choice every time! Are you supporting more of that? This accrual of power can only be stopped by eliminating the conflict that comes with a President being a member of one of the two parties. That is what forces the President to choose between what might actually be good or bad legislation with the needs of the party to win the next election. An independent President removes that complication from the decision making and can further innovative and creative legislation that actually accompishes something other than pandering for votes and writing poor law.

I truly favor a much more diminished role for the President which is what the founding fathers were trying to get to. Enough books have been written about the Imperial Presidents, and I have no desire to continue that.

You state that "..we (the real people) have no representation.. It is fixed by expanding the membership of OUR House of Representatives." Isn't that what I am trying to further? If a President gets the people more involved, they will eventually root out the poor ones and elect members who care. I am for that entirely.


Cincinnati.
Conservatives--much as it pains me to have to explain the obvious--have a tendency to think logically and post coherent thoughts here on TH, in the fond belief that within the exploratory parameters of free debate some consensus can be reached. Obviously, there are those with whom it is impossible to reason, mostly liberals but occasionally a person claiming to be conservative. You unfortunately fall within that category. McCain is a disaster waiting to happen. The fact you support him wholeheartedly and castigate those who do not (by referring to them as retards) only points up the paucity of logic and coherency residing within the confines of your skull.

Forgive me for having to point this out, but I could not in good conscience continue to allow you to show your complete ignorance without extending a helping hand. Painful as it may be for you to swallow, I can only conclude that you need to slow down and think about your position before posting it on TH. Perhaps a quotation from Oscar Wilde might lead you to the proper course of action: "It is better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."

Perhaps a course in the art of basic debate 101 might be in order.


now come on robert
you and i both know who is "far right" here.

i could cite my opine or big mick who think anyone left of them are communists.

again, i admire and respect you for continuing to post here when so many individuals disrespect you but please don't alienate the good guys and max is one of the good guys.

To the Kid
I’ve been to Cincinnati and you might be a Kid but you’re no Cincinnati Kid. We have been taking our medicine. We have been dosed every four years since 1989. Why I have Creomulsion running out of my ears and my *ss. The only reason it’s not running out of my nose is that I have been holding it voting for RINO Republicans who have been put forth since Reagan left office. We have been led to believe every time that the “good” of the Party and the “good” of the country depend on us holding out nose and voting for what every the latest Demoncrap-Lite candidate the party elites put forth. Meanwhile the Party has slid further and further to the left. He only problems is that the real Demons moved to the left also so that the Demon-Lites have to run to catch up to them.

No Mr. Cincinnati Kid, we will NOT vote for your candidate and help the Republican Party get buried further in the socialist h*ll that people like McShame wish to put it. If it takes replacing those two old socialists on the Supreme Court with younger socialists, then too bad. We’ve survived since FDR’s time, we can survive 4 more years.

TheTrucker & ex-Wyomingite Part II
Ex-Wyomingite:

"His (meaning my) platform is mostly a grab bag of nativism, anti-tax sentiment, and noveau federalism, with a big fat generous helping of Big Brother."

I suppose you object to following the advice of Washington and avoiding foreign entanglements? I suggest we trade with other nations, engage in cultural and academic exchanges, and stop interfering in their internal affairs.

I oppose giving more power to the internationalists who inhabit places like the U.N., and I do not believe we should be the world's policeman. We should be a bastion of personal freedom and a moral voice for human rights, but not go running about telling others how to order their affairs. If you wish to keep America as the world's busybody, then you are right at home with the rest of the global elites.

"Anti-tax sentiment" - If you want to pay more taxes, then send YOUR money to Washington. I offer a real proposal to simplify the tax system, and I believe in the modern world, we need some taxes to pay the bills. They should be fair and limited. If that is anti-tax, so be it, but you make no sense there.

"nouveau federalism" - What you mean by that I have no idea. Let's stick with the 10th Amendment and keep power as local as possible. That will reduce the power of the elites in Washington and prevent me from becoming the king Trucker thinks I want to be.

"Big Brother" - is exactly what I oppose! Limit government, return power to the people locally, reduce spending, taxation, and interfering in our personal lives by the government.

You then go on to state that my positions will actually work fine if we dismantle both parties, neutralize Congress, and seduce the media.


motely crue
although we hardly ever agree, that was a very impressive post to cincinnati.

i do take umbrage at the liberals not thinking logically stereotype.

you have shown your intelligence and to blithely accept the idea that most liberals can't think logically is beneath you.

as you well know, some liberals are logical and some conservatives are not and vice versa.

i think it has more to do with education and temperment than political persuasion.




Return to the good old days
I'm a lifelong liberal Democrat, and one thing I used to envy about the Republicans was their sense of party discipline. I particularly like their "11th Commmandment--Thou shalt not speak ill of another Republican." Time and again I saw my party founder and splinter and lose elections--presidential and congressional--in the face of the mighty, well-oiled Republican juggernaut. Not now. Republicans are as internally confused and divided and as self-righteous in their factionalism as ever the Democrats were. Now they're busily manuvering themselves into position to lose an election that they should be able to win. Most Americans are closer to conservatism than to liberalism. Most Americans are religious, and you guys have the lock on the religious vote. Most Americans don't support gay marriage, so you're cool on that. How the h*** do you lose with majorities of the population on your side on the issues? The answer: by ripping yourselves up, as you're doing now.

So, of course, II'd like to see dissolution continue among Republicans fighting over who is more Reaganesque than his rival. With any luck, you'll sabotage yourselves, and we Dems will then have you by the short hairs, no matter who winds up getting out nomination.

religiouslib writes:
now come on robert
you and i both know who is "far right" here.

i could cite my opine or big mick who think anyone left of them are communists.

again, i admire and respect you for continuing to post here when so many individuals disrespect you but please don't alienate the good guys and max is one of the good guys.

A couple of points need to be made. First, I have never said who I support in the Republican run for the nomination, except to say it is not Paul. Far rght I am not, except in Rockhead J. Squirrel's fevered imagination. He seems to think that he knows all about us,and our beliefs.

Second, most of us treat Rockhead J. Squirrel with complete, total, utter, and absolute contempt, because of his smug, conceited, arrogant, overbearing, smart-alecky attitude, and his claimed experience. Basically, Rockhead J. Squirrel has claimed to have done, is doing, or will do anything better than anyone else here who has stated their experience or work life. It gets old and after a while quite ridiculous.

Gestell
"With any luck, you'll sabotage yourselves, and we Dems will then have you by the short hairs, no matter who winds up getting out nomination."

Yep, and then when voters have had two years of unbridled liberalism, Americans will come to their senses once again and vote Republican!

Robert
"one thing I have learned"

WHAT???? Has the great Robert actually "LEARNED" something? I thought you already knew everything about everything (yes, I'm being sarcastic).

Like a typical ensign, you know very little, but think you're an expert on everything.

Ken writes:
Robert
"one thing I have learned"

WHAT???? Has the great Robert actually "LEARNED" something? I thought you already knew everything about everything (yes, I'm being sarcastic).

Like a typical ensign, you know very little, but think you're an expert on everything.

Rockhead could not learn anything. All a stone can do is be a stone.

obama will be the one
hillary and bill have really gone off the edge in their attacks on obama and it may very well be the beginning of the end.

hillary may come out of tuesday ahead, but obama is gaining every day and his argument that "going backwards to the 20th century"
is starting to resonate with democrats.


The Cincinnati Kid writes:
MotleyCrue
A course in the "Art of Basic Debate: 101" won't be necessary...especially since I am currently engaging in one with a completely unarmed person. One thing I remember from law school is that a person cannot be arrested for and convicted of a crime without EVIDENCE. Your conclusion that "John McCain is a disaster waiting to happen" requires at minimum a basic premise and at maximum some tangible evidence. I'm still waiting for that evidence to materialize..It hasn't yet, and I have a funny feeling that I shouldn't hold my breath waiting for it to. ....
My father warned me a long time ago that there is an inverse relationship between a person's level of intelligence and the complexity of language he or she uses to make points in arguments. So while I'm sure you scored very well on the verbal section on the SAT, you score very poorly in the art of debate and argumentation. When you come up with a reasonable, logical argument for why conservatives should not support John McCain for President, I will be here to listen and give you my full attention. Until then, better get back to studying Roget's Thesaurus and learning the new "big word" of the day.

I have a little advice for you. No matter how you dress it up, you just used the weakest of the Logical Fallacies, the Ad Hominem Attack. They don't go far here. BTW, you sound just like Rockhead J. Squirrel, pompous, conceited, smug, arrogant, sel-important and overbearing.
Second: Go back to chasing ambulances, it's what most lawyers are good at.

motley
i need to understand your thinking. Bubba says we need to kill the economy to stop globull warming and oblahma is the most liberal senator based on his voting record. Both dims are advocating socialism. The missus clinton is running on the claim she was bubba's policy maker during his eight years and oblama thinks he is the re-incarnation of jfk. Mccain is a long way from perfect but I would rather give him the option of at least making pledges to us conservs on what he would do rather than turn the country over to the dim(wits). I would counsel some patience at this point rather than make blanket pronouncements concerning what you might do in the future.

TheTrucker & ex-Wyomingite Part III
You are correct in asserting that my positions will work just fine. By restructuring the power held by the elites we will begin to dismantle not the parties actually, but the power they have accrued. That is the crux of the problem.

We then benefit by having less power going to the two parties, not necessarily neutralizing Congress, but moving it to a point where the members will be more inclined to do what is good for the nation.

It is amazing that you both state you have been to my website, and then miss entirely my main point; The two parties have engineered the election process to keep the elites in power. Our Constitution, the rule of law, and the will of the people have become convenient soundbites trotted out at the appropriate times, but never followed.

As for the corrupted media, I could not care any less about these whores who promote their favorite elites (see the NTY's endorsement of Clinton & McCain). If power devolves downward locally to the people, the elite media will find themselves having much less influence.

Let me reiterate for you my positions on the subjects you criticize me on:

I do not support more power to the two parties
I do not support bigger government
I do not support more influence for the internationalists
I do not support Big Brotherism

I do support a realistic simplified tax code
I do support more decision making to the states and local governments
I do support a limited role for the President
I do support the U.S. government abiding by the Constitution

You are certainly welcome to criticize, here or by sending me an email. However, try reading more closely what I state before doing so. Thanks, Joe



I do support a realistic, simlified tax code

Cincinnati Kid
When debating with Motley please be mindfull of the fact that he characterizes Africa as a country, and asserts that the majority of blacks are on the gov't dole when in fact the true figure according to GAO is 24%.

In other words, Motely is a not only an ignorant racist, he also pulls figures out of thin air to support his ignorance and racism.

The Cincinnati Kid writes:
Lumberjack7392
Wow! The "Ad Hominem Attack." I haven't heard that since I took Logic back in undergrad. Let me ask you something, Lumberjack. You accuse me of leveling just such an attack against MotleyCrue, and then you hit me with "Go back to chasing ambulances, it's what most lawyers are good at."

"Hey kettle, you're black." --The Pot

Well, you used it, and felt it was legitimate. I was just returning the favor.

Chopper John - So have you anything...
--
...*RELEVANT* to say?

You try to play the "racist" card against me (any think yourself oh-so-glib, don'tcha?) and then babble incoherently when I explain that Obama has less claim to negritude (and the perqs accorded to "oppressed minority" status by present standards of political correctness) than does the average quintroon.

As for my Sicilian heritage (my family entirely departed the Old Country over a century ago, so what goes on there at present is of no proximal concern to me), it was provided merely to make the point that chattel slavery - and its equivalences in terms of peonage - is a phenemenon so widespread in world history that any claim for "reparations" of *ANY* sort - including special preferences in the electoral process - on the basis of what'd been done to one's ancestors is bloody bullpuckey.

What *YOU* really need, Chopper, is the ability to stay on-point in an argument instead of blowing your cookies all over the Internet in what is - congratulations! - a real, honest-to-Aristotle argumentum ad hominem logical fallacy.

--

The more enlightened?
And you're a McCain supporter? Surely you jest, sir. And I should be armed against what, an illogical fool? If, as you say, you are an independent thinker making an independent decision, then why the lemming lockstep behind McCain? You may wish to march over the cliff behind him, but as I've so patiently explained, real conservatives will not.

And BTW. You keep demanding--as if you're the appointed moderator on this thread--that we provide facts as to why McCain would be disastrous as POTUS. Let me ask you this then: What about McCain\Feingold, McCain\Kennedy and McCain\Lieberman don't you understand?

Hmmmm --
- last I heard, the "Cincinnati Kid" was a professional sports handicapper. Any relation?

Disagree with some conclusions offered earlier...

I was backing Rudy Giuliani -- BUT, I certainly can't accept his suggestion of going with McCain.

McCain's squirrlyness is only exceeded by Mike Huckabee, the consumate panderer.

Nope, They're barely any better than the Marxist tag-team of demented Democrats....

But they're not sufficiently better. The lesser of evils or Evil of Lessers.

I simply will not vote for president.

I'm no whore or wimpy creep (akin to our sorry excuse for a president) -- and, as mentioned on a few earlier/other occasions, we'll probably sell our stuff and move South, Brazil or Costa Rica.

I mean, if our administration, congress and supercilious senators actually DO give the illegal aliens and Non-Tax-payers those "Rebates" they've been talking about...?

As this country continues to flush itself down the toilet, I rest my case - - - -

Cincinnati Kid
You must be new here. Allow me to welcome you to the site.

I must say it sure looks like you came here with barrels blazing, accusing some of us of being "hard line", and telling us to "take our medicine".

In case you haven't noticed, this is an opinion forum, where anyone can post what they wish, as long as it is within the bounds of good taste. You do yourself no favors by sounding like an Alpha male trying to establish yourself in some hierarchy. You have made some good points, but attacking others has only served to tarnish any reasonable opinion you had.

I'm sure you will now come after me, and you are free to do so. I only wish to help you in your quest to get any worthwhile points you have across. So far, you have only succeeded in shooting yourself in the foot.

More than once, I might add.

bryce3
As I've explained more than once, you racist buffoon, Africa is a hodgepodge of little states that make up the continent. For pity's sake, man, try a basic reading and comprehension course. Please.

The Cincinnati Kid writes:
Lumberjack7392
"Well, you used it, and felt it was legitimate. I was just returning the favor."

The fact that I used it implies neither implicitly nor explicitly that I felt it was legitimate. But that is a separate issue for another day and another argument.

I am still waiting for the evidence, or at least some premises, on which to draw the conclusion that "John McCain is a disaster waiting to happen."

Take your time in responding. I will give your argument full consideration before I destroy it.

Well, since I have never said what I think of McCain either as a candidate or as a President, you assume facts not in evidence. Like I said earlier, you are just another version of Robert, who is held in universal contempt by many of us here. I guess you want to join him in that/.

Cincy Kid
"When I was in law school..."

Anybody that has to keep reminding us of their education or importance has much bigger issues to deal with than who they support in an election.

Not going to play well here, Cincy. Try a different tact if you want real debate.

We already have "Robert" & "Hal D" as the stereotype elitist liberals to play with.

Oh, Cincinnati,
You do yourself no favors by taking bryce3's word that MotleyCrue is a racist.

He has accused several posters here of that, yet has given a pass to others that have called Dr. Sowell an "Uncle Tom".

Take it with a block of salt.

Frost
Actually, the Cincinnati Kid is a fictitious character in a movie play by a person now deceased. He was the same individual who raced cars backwards, ran from gelatin based creatures, and acted as a bounty hunter.

Also, anyone above room temperature and who follows TH at all has seen literally hundreds of posts specifying exactly why McShame is not a conservative.

Based on that and using logic one can only presume that this individual is a poser and a troll who is here solely for the reason of stirring up trouble.

What TH needs is a good vermin specialist to administer a troll abatement program.

Hi, Max, YL, Lumber, Primus, wildwest.
What do a hundred drowning lawyers represent?

Answer: A good start.

Max -- ask and ye shall receive - -
John McCain did not support the Bush Tax-Cuts; voted against ‘em TWICE !!! Despite semantics/denials, is very weak on the Amnesty issue and Illegal Aliens (wanted to give Social Security credits to Illegals); is VERY weak on the car/Café standards and on Global Warming - - he doesn’t want drilling in ANWR (he called it like drilling in the Grand Canyon?). Then, aside from the disastrous McCain-Feingold law which infringes on our Freedom-of-Speech, he’s far too cozy with Ted Kennedy and even Hillary Clinton, pandering to too many left-wing issues, like allowing “criminal” trials for terrorists at Guantanamo (with full access to intelligence files); didn’t want “waterboarding” either, even when our national security is at stake. The Senator who was a co-founder of the Gang of 14 that could have stopped the filibustering of Supreme Court nominees... was one of the Keating Five, and finished fifth-from-the-bottom at the Naval Academy - - - annnnd was very strongly considered as John Kerry’s Veep candidate?!?
Simply, I don't trust him because he thinks he's above the people - - he does what he wants, not what the people want him to do. He's a dichotomy; he believes in a strong national defense...except at the border.

Yeah, it wasn't me you asked, but....

YLG writes:
Cincinnati Kid
You must be new here. Allow me to welcome you to the site.

I must say it sure looks like you came here with barrels blazing, accusing some of us of being "hard line", and telling us to "take our medicine".

In case you haven't noticed, this is an opinion forum, where anyone can post what they wish, as long as it is within the bounds of good taste. You do yourself no favors by sounding like an Alpha male trying to establish yourself in some hierarchy. You have made some good points, but attacking others has only served to tarnish any reasonable opinion you had.

I'm sure you will now come after me, and you are free to do so. I only wish to help you in your quest to get any worthwhile points you have across. So far, you have only succeeded in shooting yourself in the foot.

More than once, I might add.

YLG: From what I have read of his posts, he is just another version of Robert and HalD, arrogant, smug, overbearing, conceited with the belief that he is better than the rest of us. Nothing you can say will change him.

SJ DOC
You allege that Sen Mccain compromised his principles. I see no evidence of that.
I think it would be more accurate to say that he compromised YOUR principles.

Motley in black and white
"Africa is and has always been the most backward of COUNTRIES, basically living off the handouts of the civilized world. So it is with the majority of American blacks."

Well said, Frost, but methinks
you are wasting your time on Cincinnati. The man is a troll.

stan and others ask what's the diff
between Sens McCain/Clinton/Obama.
The difference is:
Iraq: McCain wants to win. The others have said they would withdraw. Mrs. Clinton said on her first day as president, she'd ask the JCOS for a plan to be out in 60 days. She said that two days ago. Mr. Obama undoubtedly agrees, though is not wont to get specific (about ANYTHING).

Earmarks: Sen McCain will veto them, Sens Clinton and Obama will be adding to them.

Just a couple of things we know for sure.

bryce3
You should show us all what a magnanimuous person you are and sign up for the peace corps and go over there to help them.

Hey, Son - - -
- - - look up a few inches... headlines "Max, ask and yee shall receive" or something similar...... there's a list of several substantial reasons why I don't trust McCain.

No principle there ---

The Cincinnati Kid writes:
First, I am not assuming anything about you or your opinions. I merely asked for those of you who believe that "John McCain is a disaster waiting to happen" to provide evidence to support that assertion. I haven't heard any yet.

And yet you continue to assume that I think "John McCain is a disaster waiting to happen." What gives you that idea? Where is your evidence that I believe that? Tell me how you know what I think. Otherwise you are just another arrogant south end of a north bound horse.

bryce. Yawn zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
.

Conservatives boycott election...
...giving Her Thighness the victory is no way to "send a message." I don't want "universal healthcare" forced on us like Social Security the rest of our goddam lives! You boycott this, you pay the rest of your lives. I don't see any conservative who wants to abolish SS. UHC will be another. In order to avoid this, I will hold my nose and pull the lever for McCain, just to prevent that b*tch and her husband-in-politics-only from entering the White House.

Cincinnati.
Rather than asking us to state why we won't vote McCain, why don't you tell us why you think he would be so GREAT for the country. Who knows, perhaps if you were to put your, ahem, courtroom oratory skills to the task, you might be able to persuade some of the more weak-minded amongst us.

Cinncinati
Can you provide evidence to support your ascertion that Max must answer your question? Can you provide evidence, to support your implication, that if Max doesn't answer your question, that the said facts you are asking for (in support of the assertion that "McCain is a disaster waiting to happen") simply do not exist?

And also could you further clarify for us why you believe that a statement of "opinion" can be quantified by facts? And if you want Max to be specific you might want to define what you belive "disaster" to mean because when all is said and done the both of you might hold very different definitions of the term. . .

I like this game--its fun--I can sound like a pompous windbag too.

The only points you have tried to make,
Cincinnati, is that you're an attorney who knows more than anyone on this thread, and that you're a pompous arse to boot.

Cincinnati Kid
Don’t worry, there’s hope for you yet. If you go to the Dale Carnegie school on how to win friends and influence people you can trade up in jobs and become a used car salesman. If not, I’m afraid you will backslide like all other lawyers and become a reform politician. After that there is no hope.

Nah -- I just saw the name - -
- - Cincinnati Kid.... was wondering if he were one-in-the-same as the sports handicapper.....

I'm not trying to straighten anyone out. Will offer suggestions, ideas or an opinion, but sure won't be bothered pontificating or playing the sanctimonious card.....

I have better things to do. And, now, think I will. Have to clean the pool....

Well
I'm off to run some errands. Have a good afternoon. Back later.

Still waiting for Cincinnati to tell us
his reasons for voting for McCain. So far he hasn't presented any reason why we should, other than because he says so.

The Fabulous Timbo
"I will hold my nose and pull the lever for McCain, just to prevent that b*tch and her husband-in-politics-only from entering the White House."

I'm with you. I'm not crazy about McCain, Romney, or Huckabee, but I certainly don't want to see Hillary in the White House. Even with all of Obama's bad points (and he has plenty of them), I'd still prefer him to Hillary.

I was leaning toward Fred Thompson, but he's out of the race. I'm not sure I could have held my nose tight enough to vote for Giuliani, so I'm glad he's out. I think I can hold it tight enough to vote for any of the top three remaining candidates (I know Ron Paul is still in the race, but his poll numbers have reduced him to virtual irrelevance).


Cincinnati Kid
Most probably didn't recognize your points because you went off like Lizzie Borden with an axe!!

Seriously, you'll find many who are of the same opinion as you, and others who will not suffer him as president. Personally, I don't find him to be a traitor. I do have major reservations with the bills he has helped to enact. In MY opinion (because that's what I post here!), I don't think I can vote for someone who helped enact a law that infringes on the First Amendment.

Don't worry about alienating or pandering here. Any opinion is welcome, just know that some of us, myself included, do not like to be "spoken" to in a high-handed manner.

I must run to pick up my little ones. Nice to have typed with you.

wildwest writes 3:02PM
"motley. Mccain is a long way from perfect but I would rather give him the option of at least making pledges to us conservs on what he would do rather than turn the country over to the dim(wits). I would counsel some patience at this point rather than make blanket pronouncements concerning what you might do in the future."

Greetings, wildwest, my friend. You make a good point, and it is difficult for me to imagine sitting out the election. But, then again, I believe we would be better letting the democrats savage this country, as the will, for the next 4 years rather than have someone claiming to be a conservative do it.

Make no mistake, wildwest, we conservatives will be on the receiving end of the stick for a while, but I'd rather the public be ready for a conservative in 2012 than a democrat. And if McCain wins, come 2012 the country will elect so many democrats we'll have no voice for the next millennium.

BTW, wildwest. We are at the chat room.
.

life as we know it??
Robert - I don't think we'll lose life as we know it if we "lose" or if we withdraw. The exact same arguments were made for staying in Vietnam - that we'd be viewed as weak to the Communists, the dominos would continue to fall, blah blah blah. It was all bunk, just like the justification for staying in Iraq now is bunk.

Please tell me how life as we know it would end if we withdraw from Iraq tomorrow. I can only say that if we withdraw, life as we know it will continue for many soldiers whose lives would otherwise be snuffed out in the name of "staying the course" or proving that "the surge is working."

It's just disgusting to me that soldiers' lives are disregarded so much by today's neocons. They're being used for political agendas by the nefarious crew in office. Being a former POW, I'd expect McCain to demonstrate a little more discretion.

al
"The exact same arguments were made for staying in Vietnam - that we'd be viewed as weak to the Communists, the dominos would continue to fall, blah blah blah."

Excuse me, but what happened when we withdrew from Vietnam? The Communists viewed us as weak, and the dominos continued to fall.