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Thursday, January 10, 2008
Victor Davis Hanson :: Townhall.com Columnist
The Messy Politics of Illegal Immigration
by Victor Davis Hanson
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With the war in Iraq politically on the backburner, illegal immigration is heating up as a campaign issue. The public wants action, and the candidates are scrambling to react.

Sen. Hillary Clinton’s sure nomination was first questioned when she flubbed an easy debate question about driver’s licenses for illegal aliens.

Sen. John McCain’s recovery took off when he backed away from his support of immigration reform that did not first ensure the closure of the border.

Former Mayor Rudy Giuliani is no longer for “sanctuary cities” that shield illegal aliens from arrest. Like former Gov. Mike Huckabee, he’s now a born-again opponent of illegal immigration.

Former Gov. Mitt Romney assures us that some illegal aliens can be deported within 90 days after he’s elected.

Sen. Barack Obama may talk of “change,” but his relative fuzziness about illegal immigration can’t last forever, and at some point he will have to offer more specific proposals.

Some time ago, supporters of open borders lost the debate. The majority of Americans want them closed — now! They ignore the tired slurs like “anti-immigrant,” “racist,” “protectionist” and “nativist.” And noisy May Day parades with Mexican flags and heated rhetoric from the National Council of La Raza (“The Race”) only turn more people off.

It doesn’t do any good, either, for a Mexico City functionary to cry about how mean we are to want a secure border with Mexico. Most Americans also tuned that out long ago.

They know instead that Mexico cares mostly about sending north those it won’t or can’t feed and house — so it can skim off from them billions in remittances once they arrive in the United States.

Mexico City, of course, could reform the country’s laws and economy whenever it wants. But it changes only enough to draw in tourists or Americans looking to buy vacation homes, not to better the lives of millions of its mestizo poor in the heartland.

The spin masters may think illegal immigration is an issue that pits conservative Republicans against liberal Democrats. But it doesn’t always.

Nowadays, worry about illegal immigration is just as likely to mean that African-Americans are terrified of racist alien gangs in Los Angeles. Asian-Americans are frustrated that their relatives with college degrees wait years to emigrate legally, while thousands without high-school diplomas to the south simply break the law to enter the United States.

And many Mexican-Americans are probably tired of being expected to defend the indefensible of foreign nationals breaking immigration laws simply because they may share an ethnic heritage with illegal aliens.

To the extent Democratic candidates ignore illegal immigration, or demonize those who worry over hundreds of thousands of new illegal aliens each year, or talk of guest workers and amnesty before they mention closing the borders, it is a losing issue that could alienate millions of voters.

Democratic candidates can’t really claim that redneck racists are rushing to the border to clash with poor campesinos just crossing to better their lives, because many poor Democrats also resent how illegal labor drives down their own wages. It is mostly the American poor and middle class who worry about the sudden influx of thousands who don’t speak English and often need public assistance.

But the Republican candidates have to watch it, too. If blanket amnesty is a losing issue, so also is mass deportation — the practicality and morality of which are rarely considered by those rightly calling for an end to illegal immigration. Busing every illegal alien back to Mexico right now might resemble the past messy partition of India and Pakistan, and reopen the issue in a way that Democrats can legitimately exploit.

What then might an astute candidate advocate?

Close the border now through fencing, more agents, employer sanctions, enforcement of the law and verifiable identification. Restore faith in the melting pot by insisting that new legal arrivals learn English and the customs and protocols of the United States.

Explain to the Mexican and Central American governments that using the United States to avoid addressing internal problems — while making easy dollars off the backs of their own expatriate laborers — is over.

Finally, deport aliens who have broken the law, are not working or have just arrived. Some illegal aliens will not like the new atmosphere of tough enforcement and will voluntarily go back home. Others may have criminal records or no history of employment and should leave as well.

But many millions of law-abiding, employed illegal aliens of long residence will wish to stay. We should allow these to remain in the United States while they apply for citizenship — if they are willing to learn promptly our language and customs.

Republican candidates must risk angering their base by ruling out mass deportation. Democrats should support closing the border tightly and quickly — and not cave in to open-borders pressure groups.

Making these tough choices now is what most voters want. The candidates of both parties in the next few months will either adjust accordingly or lose elections.

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About The Author
Victor Davis Hanson is a classicist and historian at the Hoover Institution, Stanford University, and a recipient of the 2007 National Humanities Medal.

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This Issue
WAS clear cut. It was MADE MESSY by Pandering Politicians on both sides of the aisle.

As somebody who came in the front door
and paid big money and waited her turn, I say every single person who is in this country illegally, for whatever reason, no matter how many children she has or how loudly she bawls, should be sent back to the end of the line to pay her money and wait her turn.

When a man breaks into my house through the basement window he cannot expect to be treated as if he knocked at my front door and I invited him in. The mere fact that he is in my house gives him no right to stay there; in fact, it gives me every right to assume he is up to no good and turf him out the same way he came in.

When a woman breaks into my country she can expect no more than the rational assumption that she is up to no good.

In my opinion, the vast majority of the illegal tide can be turned by (1) repealing the Anchor Baby Law; and (2) insisting that everyone who is hired, who shows up for school, or who applies for any legal documents show proof that he or she is in the country legally (I have these). The pregnant will no longer come if they are on equal footing with the rest of the illegals, and if there is no financial benefit to be gained in remaining, save to be exploited under the table in roughly the same way they would be at home, you will find that the illegals will deport themselves.

A near verbatim endorsment of Giuliani

The path of AudiR10 needs to be substantiated.

1. Close the border.
2. Deport those who have a criminal record.
3. Fine employers
4. Of those that remain:
4-a. Get them IDs
4-b. They need to pay a fine.
4-c. Get them to pay taxes.
4-D. Their tax status should PERMANENTLY lose one dependent.

This way illegals can stay, but the legal path will always have been a better path.

AudiR10
I am right with you! It is crazy to act as though people who broke the law to be here and whose very presence here is an affront to the law should be given some type of break. If the Constitution had not been stretched to create the "anchor baby" laws, we would have fewer of these people coming in...because the way that we treat our immigration laws, they no longer come in the basement window. Nowadays they kick in the front door and take over the house!

There is no need for mass deportation...
..if we just enforce the laws against hiring illegals, make it illegal to receive government assistance, the "problem" will go away on its own. To those who have been here a long time, I am truley sorry that you took it upon yourself to break our immigration laws, however, that's the way it goes. No amnesty. Congress did that in 1986 and promised us that would be the only time it would offer it. This current crop of politions needs to remember that..

Pants on Fire

“McCain Pushes Amnesty, Guest-Worker Program,” reported the Tucson Citizen of May 29, 2003.

The senator is quoted as saying: “Amnesty has to be an important part because there are people who have lived in this country for 20, 30 or 40 years, who have raised children here and pay taxes here and are not citizens. That has to be a component of it.”

The newspaper also quoted McCain as saying: “I think we can set up a program where amnesty is extended to a certain number of people who are eligible and at the same time make sure that we have some control over people who come in and out of this country.”

I count twice in that paragraph that McCain used the word — amnesty — to describe the thing he favored — amnesty.

So who’s the liar?

What Is Amnesty?
Amnesty = McShame, Huckster, Fruity Rudy.

It is the Democrats and a few RINO's
It is the Democrats and a few RINO's like McCain, Guiliani, Huckabee, and George Bush who don't support the wishes of the vast Majority of Americans. I for one am very gladthat the illegal immigration debacle might surface in the Nomination process, about time. It's plainly clear the MSM and these Liberal moderators for these so-called debates doesn't want the Immigration issue to be discussed.

The Democratic Controlled Congress, who wants open borders has violated our Fence by removing funding and this alone should eliminate alot of Conservative Democrats and Independents votes in Nov 2008, allowing the GOP to remain in the Whitehouse. I believe a Democrat in the Whitehouse now, would be disasterous for America then any GOP candidate, even those I don't like because of their Liberal and Federalistic Agenda which isn't in step with Conservative Core Supporters of the GOP, any one of these GOP Candidates would be better for America.

I'm
the daughter and granddaughter on my mom's side (and second generation on my Dad's side) of immigrants who took years to come here (10) interrupted by WW1, and another 8 to be citizens,
shortly before my Grandfather (who fought in the British Army in WW1) sent his two younger sons to
WW2. My family has paid it's dues, and has continued by Grampa's grandsons enlisting in the Navy and AF, and his great grandson's following
them (not all but most). And we are told by a Congress, the majority having NEVER served that we must accomodate the invaders. Yes, I do feel sorry for the poor souls but it's not up to the U.S. to provide for everyone that sneaks in. It's their home countries responsibility. Where's all the aid money we send these countries, after all these years, there should have been some decent results and improvements in the lives of these poor people so they wouldn't want to break our laws. Instead of being so compassionate, perhaps Jorge should be
tougher, like he is on Israel's giving up their
God given lands for peace with Palestine. (In that instance we should say piece because that side wants every piece of Israel, it's infrastructure and people in pieces as well.)

AudiR10
You are exactly right. You did it the right way and I'm sure it was no easy feat.

None of this would be an issue were it not for special interest groups and greed. But the truth remains: Illegal aliens are first and foremost illegal. They need to be compelled to self-deport at unheard rates, and that is, frankly, pretty easy: Dry up the jobs and stop the free medical care and welfare, and they will zoom back home.

Personally, I don't believe this country would be helped in any way by admitting 12-20 million LEGAL immigrants who lack even a high school degree and who are clearly not interested in assimilating. Anyone want to show me the benefit in that (except of course to industries that rely on cheap labor)?

It's to late for deportation.
Essentially, America's lack of enforcing it's entry and immigration laws have led to illegals now having legal standing by reason of " Adverse Enjoyment and Possession". We watched them come into the country and did nothing about it. It was, "Open and Notorious". It is now too late to remedy by deportation. We have abrogated that right by our own actions and the lack thereof.

Furthermore, I consider the concept that these trespassers will ever pay a fine. The ACLU will block such payment as being excessive, discriminatory or abusive to the poor. It's just too late to remedy this situation. There's too many here, to many have anchor baby's and the left is more than willing to defend this status quo.

Illegal immigration is like 9-11. It's impossible to go back to 9-10. It's now impossible as well, to return to the Hart-Celler INS Act of 1965 and repeal it. America once had "Badges", real ones, but we failed to use them. For a nation that bases it's birthright on the "Rule of Law", we have become as "Esau".

Give 2 Guns another 2!
I'm with 2Guns. Let's enforce our employment laws and get rid of the illegal immigrants that are here. Let's make it their responsibility to leave, not ours to round them all up.

When we moved a couple of years ago I had to dig up birth certificates for my children before they would allow me to enroll in elementary school here. I mistakenly assumed that all schools were doing the same thing - and it was being done to keep illegal immigrants out of the school. When I drive I have to carry a license identifying myself. Let's apply the laws that we have to follow to the illegal immigrants. My vote in the primary and general election will be predicated on the candidate's stance on immigrant and then taxes. There is no way that I will vote for McCain or Giuliani. Can we trust that Huckabee is going to fight to end the anchor baby farce or is that just rhetoric?

It's Still Amnesty
You just have to love these amnesty pundits like Victor Davis Hanson. They all seem to work from the same template -- start the article out tapping into the outrage citizens feel toward the illegal invasion, build agreement and points with the reader by adopting some of the no-brainer solutions, and then inexplicably tossing the call for amnesty (of course they don't call it that) in at the very end. Here's the way Hanson did it...

"But many millions of law-abiding, employed illegal aliens of long residence will wish to stay. We should allow these to remain in the United States while they apply for citizenship — if they are willing to learn promptly our language and customs."

Why do we care what the illegal alien law breakers WISH for? Don't all criminals WISH for leniency and forgiveness? The question is what is in the best interest of our country. Is it undermining the rule of law, encouraging more illegal immigration, costing our citizens over $2.7 trillion dollars? Well that is but only a few of the problems with amnesty, but hey we're supposed to listen to the WISHES of the illegals, right?!?

The other part of the template that Hanson follows is to play this whole issue out as if it is complicated and nuanced. It's not! Does anyone really think we are going to be able to force English literacy on the illegals? How are we going to be able to figure out residency requirements to a bunch of professional document forgers that will be able to produce whatever documentation the laws requires with an enforcement agency that will no doubt be incompetent, understaffed, and under-funded? Why should illegals who have broken the law for longer periods of time be shown favoritism over those who are more recent offenders? But only a few of the questions I have for yet another amnesty pundit.


Mass Deportations
For the millionth time Mr. Hanson, NOBODY is calling for "round 'em all up" deportations. Attrition through enforcement is the answer and you know it! Just look at what is happening in the areas where it has been tried at the state and local level. Bring that same level of energy and committment to the federal level and most will leave on their own.

Only you already know that. You are like a lot of the other fat cat Republicans that really don't wish for the illegals to return. You believe in the idea that the cheap labor and inflation tempering "benefits" they provide somehow make their trangressions forgivable.

Wrong!
No amnesty for any of them. Employer sanctions will self deport the vast majority. The rest will be caught and deported over time.

All those who do not self deport should be fingerprinted and never be allowed to immigrate.

Lets end this criminal behavior as soon as possible.

Romney Flip Flops on Immigration!
This was Romney who was for the McCain immigration plan before he was against it!

WATCH VIDEO


http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/romney-flip-flops- on-immigration

Victor, have you lost your mind????
You say "But many millions of law-abiding, employed illegal aliens of long residence will wish to stay. We should allow these to remain in the United States while they apply for citizenship — if they are willing to learn promptly our language and customs." Why should we allow them to stay just because it was easy to walk on over? Should we allow others who sneak in by boat to stay as well? You are allowing MILLIONS to have most of the benefits of being a citizen, the major one being living in the US, while they await their papers. How is that fair to the millions of others in all other countries waiting? It's simply not fair at all. If you are here illegally, you should self-deport or risk losing any chance at gaining citizenship for not self-deporting. Get in line just like everyone else. If you want to work here on a temporary basis, get a visa to do so...do you work and then leave.

Mcshame
I'm having a hard time understanding how McCain, who everyone sees as this wonderment of national security has been so weak on border control. How the hell do you protect this country when anybody with 2 legs can walk right through? That and the fact that he's from flipping Arizona boggles my mind. Been to Arizona, close to the border lately?? It is no longer America and hasn't been for some time. He has changed his tone in the hopes of getting elected but has the audacity to point the flip-flop finger at Romney.

Now for Huckabee. do a minimal amount of research and you'll find out quickly he's a con-man too. The fact that the average American is so taken by him and Mcshame is something I can never understand. He is an arrogant slime who wanted to give tuition to illegals.. Somehow the people voting can't seem to see this.

Romney/Thompson/ are the only ones who seem to be authentic in their approach to illegal immigration. Romney is the only one of the 2 who has a shot at the nomination. But that won't happen either if people don't wake up NOW.

This is personal for me. Very personal. My 10 yr. old nephew was killed by an illegal who drove drunk. 6 Months later a court in California slapped him on the wrist. My sister killed herself that day. How many other Americans will die before people see what is happening?

importing criminals
We have enough home-grown criminals already.

Any illegals who break the law or have a record are sent home pronto!

Facts still count Victor.
1. They self deport sometimes two times a year to take the cash home or attend a wedding.
2. There are hundreds of buses that haul them in and back, no one needs to lift a finger when the ILLEGAL JOBS go so will the wage slaves.
3. It is Slavery.
4. It is driven by greed and evil.
5. The real deal is this sub prime melt down was caused by the over building via the low cost wage slaves the home builders, street builders, ect used to over supply much cheaper homes that now have busted the home prices.
6. The support for the wage slaves comes from do gooders who have blind eyes to the slavery.
7. The support for the wage slaves comes from the evil money cult in the U.S. Congress and Senate who recive re-election money to allow this new age slavery to exist.
8. This is not the first unlimited illegal immigration invasion by the Spanish and Mexicans
you are directed to the book "Apache" by Will Leveiton Comfort, its the life and times of Mangus Colorados and the Apache of the southwest as they lost their ears at $2.00 per set , and their then land , their then gold.
9. Long words, hign minded ideas will not over come the real deal of the MS-13, La Raza, and the evil that now controls the traffice, Mexican and south American drug cartels who now shoot to kill 1 mile south of YOUR border, and soon in your American cities.
10. You Victor, You America are the New Apache,
and we the Apache of old can tell you it is not a good thing to be such.

Facts are such a problem.

audir10
my parents were lucky to get here as they had a sponsor and thus escaped hitler. Once here they took classes, learned english, american history and became citizens. We were raised to value everything american. I find it an insult to my parents and the millions of others who followed the rules, came here worked to become citizens and were proud to be americans. But now the p/c nutcases from the left discount what it is to be an american and that other cultures are either equal to or superior to that of america. If that is the case why are so many trying to get here. I don't hear of people from this country getting in line to emigrate else so there must be something compelling about coming to this wonderful land. But this notion of illegals who have already broken our laws through unlawful entry need only pay a fine and get advanced to the head of the line is particularly galling. Being a citizen of the united states is our most precious pocession. Giving it away to those who have not earned the right to be hear cannot be tolerated. Mexico and others have not right to dump their unwanted citizens here. The so called anchor children likewise have no claim to automatic citizenship and that needs to be changed immediately. America is to valuble and important to lose it's totally unique identity

Law abiding Illegal Aliens
What an oxymoron that one is. It's like saying a drug dealer is just an unlicensed pharmacist.

Give me a break!

Just can't believe it...
Wow - Does anybody seriously believe anything will ever be done to stop or limit illegal immigration?

Wow - ha, ha

Sammy (or anyone).
(---
Is it undermining the rule of law, encouraging more illegal immigration, costing our citizens over $2.7 trillion dollars?
---)

OK, I understand and agree with the first part of this. But where does the $2.7T price tag come from?

Nothing messy--repost of simple rules
(1) Citizens (and only citizens) of a country have intrinsic rights to enter the country
(2) Citizens who voluntarily renounce citizenship shall be treated as other foreigners
(3) Country has rights to specify rules by which a foreigner can come there temporarily or permanently
(4) Foreigner who fails to follow those rules and is present in the country shall be considered as malfeasant--and can be driven out by any means necessary
(5) Citizens found actively aiding/abetting malfeasant aliens (to enter or stay illegally) are treasonous, and should be tried for such
(6) Non-citizen aliens within country who actively aid/abet malfeasants should be deported without trial and entry-banned from country for eternity
(7) Organisations existing with stated purpose of aiding/abetting malfeasant aliens (such as La Raza) should be shut down and banned--and their members/employees subject to #5 and #6!

And I agree, anchor-baby law should be repealed. An irony is that many European countries (Germany being one) DO NOT grant automatic-citizenship by birth.

Basically, the illegal immigration issue WASN't messy until Reagan decided to scamnesty about 30 lakh illegal aliens in 1986--and then butchered the immigration processes of many who were waiting in line to immigrate legally. Malfeasant aliens should have only a very few choices:
(1) Leave, at own expense (self-deport)
(2) Country can fingerprint/DNA the malfeasant aliens, take them to border in rear-tipper's loadbed, back this vehicle up to border and dump them over it (recommend also building a 2-metre-high fence along border to dump them over--so that the lesson will be somewhat painful); the dumped aliens should then be entry-banned for eternity

Sagredo
Actually the number is $2.6 Trillion (got a little carried away). Of course that is Rector's low ball estimate if there are "only" 12 million illegals here. Chances are the real costs will be much higher...

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Immigration/wm1523.cfm

Iraq War is on the "backburner"?
Since when? that sounds like a repub/con pipedream to me. from everything i have read
the war in Iraq remains the #1 issue to voters.

AudiR10 is Right
There are several steps:
1. We use Employer Fines/Business License Elimination for hiring illegals, this is helped through electronic verification.
2. Stop transfer of cash from US to Mexico or any other country without proper ID (Visa or legal US residency)
3. Stop shipping from US to Mexico or any other country without proper ID (Visa or legal US residency)
4. Cut off Federal funds to any "sanctuary..."
5. Place the military on the border, if we do not have enough - start moving them from overseas bases such as Korea, etc.
6. If we pick up any illegal alien in any location notify ICE and have them deported, no excuses. Saying we cannot move the large amount is useless unless we try.

#1 gives illegal aliens a harder time to employment.
#2 and #3 keeps the money earned in the USA in the USA.
#5 will help close the border and eliminate incursions by the Mexican military

Dear Victor,
Remove hat, eat with salt.

No adjustment needed
Duncan Hunter doesn't have to scamble to react or change course. He has been out in front of this issue for years. He is the only candidate who seems to take this problem seriously.

Duncan pushed through the law to build the border fence. The results in the San Diego area have been staggering. From 1989 to 2000 the crime rate in San Diego County dropped 56% according to the FBI Crime Index. Illegal alien apprehensions in the fenced region dropped from 202,000 in 1992 to 9,000 in 2004. Hunter has also promised to pardon former Border Patrol agents Compean and Ramos.

http://www.gohunter08.com


Libs and conservative often agree
on the issue of illegal immigration. It is the primary reason we have been inundated with gangs (MS13, DDPs, Latin Kings, etc...). Many illegals work BUT send the money home and receive welfare benefits here. Schools and hospitals are overwhelmed and some have been bankrupted. ESL in my school takes a significant amount of the budget, and its ever-increasing. High achieving kids are often all but ignored or used as teacher's aids.

In my school various hispanic groups stick together, and often wear their country's flag on clothing and jewelry and do NOT want to assimilate. There are many hispanic kids who aren't part of this, but an alarming amount do.

For some familes, coming here was motivtated not by the desire to become American, but to remain in the same behavior patterns that make their home countries such $@^t holes. Here, they are to have food, clothing, and shelter while having baby after baby.

For those who want to assimilate, they need to do it legally.

Armed incursions by Mexican officials
Interesting video at this website showing cooperation between drug smugglers and Mexican army. You will need Apple's Quicktime to view the video.

http://www.judicialwatch.org/mexican-smuggler-pursuit-video

List of armed incursions by Mexican officials into USA territory here:

http://www.judicialwatch.org/judicial-watch-releases-border -patrol-report-mexican-government-incursions

You can download Quicktime for free here:
http://www.apple.com/quicktime/player/

Another Point
We need immigrant labor. We need to issue work permits to however many people we feel we should admit without harming our own people but fruit should not be rotting in the fields because there arent enough hands to pick it. Work permits. No path to citizenship, no welfare state goodie bags. None of this will work without a national ID card, something that makes most conservatives foam at the mouth, but its the only way to solve the current situation.
I hate to disagree with Victor Davis Hanson (I'm just finishing 'Soul Of Battle' which is excellent) but John McLame does not have any credibility on this issue. The McLame-Kennedy Act made it impossible to deport criminals, made every low-income illegal instantly eligible for the Earned Income tax Credit and Social Security and hamstrung the border patrol.Now that he's running for office he's changed his mind? Sorry.

Hanson misses one
VDH usually makes good points in his columns, but this one completely missed the mark. Ironically, he missed it in part because he doesn't seem to understand the relevant history.

Back in 1986, Reagan was persuaded to sign off on an amnesty for something like 1.3 million illegal aliens. He was assured we would never have to implement amnesty again.

The real number turned out to be over 3 million, and it was only the beginning. Lack of economic growth in Mexico, combined with a burgeoning population, meant a lot of people looking for opportunity north of the border. And the 1986 amnesty only provided encouragement.

Forget the estimates of 12 to 20 million illegals. Take it from a lifelong California resident--the real number is more like 25 to 30 million. And if we let them stay, we're only encouraging more to come.

Many illegals will self-deport if employers enforcement causes the jobs to dry up. But that won't be enough. Deporting all the criminals and gang members we can catch won't be enough, either.

We need to deport illegal aliens as we find them. The illegals who are here already and the people south of the border who might consider sneaking north need to see that we're serious about enforcing our immigration laws. Even if it's only 100,000 a year, it's worth doing.

Amnesty for All Practical Purposes
For all practical purposes, anything other than deportation for anyone found in the US illegally is both an amnesty and a slap in the face to the LEGAL immigrants who jumped through all the correct hoops to come here legally and remain here legally.

Why should I have any sympathy for an illegal alien – who is depressing wages and raising unemployment for US citizens, committing social security fraud, getting his family’s medical care paid for by my tax money, sending his kids to compete with citizens’ kids for college admission and financial aid, and draining my town’s services by requiring money to be spent on Spanish services, and maybe even diluting my vote via fraud – just because he has successfully perpetuated his fraudulent impersonation of a US citizen for many years?

skep41
No, we don't need immigrant labor. Fruit is not going to rot in the fields.

If we get rid of the illegals who are driving down wages and displacing unskilled workers who are citizen then either the wages will rise sufficiently to attract US Citizen workers or our ingenious US Citizens will invent mechanical harvesting equipment just as they've done for many, many crops already.

mass deportation is straw man problem
Part of what Hanson says has merit, but he effectively buys into the straw man challenge proffered by the left and ethnocentric Hispanic advocates--> surely we cannot deport 12 million.
Actually, I figure that if the feds admit to 12 million, they KNOW that the REAL number is much higher. In any case, we can get most of them to repatriate attritively SIMPLY BY HAVING THE POLITICAL WILL TO ENFORCE EXISTING LAWS.

First, body slam the pols who cater to them... there are signs that this is happening. Second, insist that EXISTING laws be enforced: build the wall, crack down on employers, and stop the freebies, including tuition. No jobs, no freebies --> NO STAY! Require proof of citizenship to function-- WE prove who we are CONSTANTLY for employment, travel, etc. Expired visas will not cut it! The possible threat of terrorism is yet another reason to require proof of a right to be visiting America.

No papers? Then NO job, NO apt., NO drivers licenses, NO social services. As Az. has done, kill bilingual education-- learn or return! Revamp LEGAL immigration to emphasize education and skill sets-- just as other countries do. NO PATHS TO CITIZENSHIP-- PERIOD! Let them go back and start from scratch-- most would not qualify to return! Reinterpret the 14th as intended; just as children of diplomats born here are not citizens, ILLEGAL madres should not be able to push out excuses for family welfare. A nation which loses its borders and sovereignty ceases to be a nation; America is too special to lose to an invasion of the willfully culturally disparate and ignorant indigent. We CANNOT be the welfare state for Latin America's socio-economic failures and plutocratic governments.

50 Years and still nuttin done.
This is not a new problem and still congress is afraid of stoping the criminals from comming here.Some want to say its about Iraq and forget that wages and jobs are lost to illegal aliens and still they wont inforce laws that are on the books.Aid and abeting chrimnals has always been a way to stop employers from hiring the crimnals BUT that would requrie someone who will inforce the laws.

No Jobs No Need to Come.
the unemployment rate has now went to 5% of the work force and that is 150 million Americans out of work.12 to 15 million illegal aliens sent back home frees up a lot of jobs for unemployed Americans.

Put the US back in USA.
Americas_chat_cafe
http://forum.freeboards.net/?mforum=americaschatcaf

Most Americans want a "Comprehensive
Imigration Law." The last polls I remember seeing, months ago, showed that. But, most Americans aren't plugged into conservative talk radio, and it was at the urgings of conservative talk radio that our legislators were deluged with emails and phone calls against a comprehensive plan and to which our legislators then reacted. Special interests trump popular will again.

Actually, Hanson does back the Comprehensive Plan Lite, in which "secure our borders first" is the mantra.

Times have changed. I can remember the Italians in North Beach San Francisco standing on street corners, waving their arms as they spoke - still Italian. Some learned to speak English poorly. Others, never at all.

skep41 @ 16:28 wrote
"We need immigrant labor. We need to issue work permits to however many people we feel we should admit without harming our own people..."

Excuse me, did you not read about Canada-US Free Trade Agreement of 1988 amended in 1993 (with addition of Mexico) to NAFTA?

Now to address the skep's other point.

Having been naturalised to Canada in 1982, I was then issued a Citizenship Card--so I have no issues about what you describe as "national ID card".

The irony is that such a card DOES already exist for:
(1) legal immigrants ("Green Card"--duh)
(2) prospective immigrants in final-stage of US-based processing (I-485/AOS)--the EAD

So, why can US not do so for naturalised citizens (and native-born who request such) like its northern neighbour?

Death is a Fact:
Houston Police Officer Rodney Johnson is dead, "it is a fact".
Robert Lane Camp, 47 owner of a landscaping company in Houston has been charged correctly with a federal criminal complaint in this death.
Robert Lane Camp encouraged the "deported" prior illegal Juan Leonardo Quintero-Prez to unlawfully re-enter the U.S.A. once more by buying Quintero-Prez a plane ticket from Phoenix Az to Houston Texas, where the fact is he shot and killed Police Officer Rodney Johnson.

Victor you see so little from your high perch there in elite ville, come down off there after you eat your high topped hat with salt and join "we the people", in defending America like you should.

Your true,
onemorecaptinsmast
of the swiftboat vet blog
aka
taxfreekiller of
littlegreenfootballs blog

nice to chat, later

the artful myth of a divided citizenry
[please see my related post just below ;~) ]
Several recent polls indicate that independents now rank ILLEGAL immigration as their greatest concern. It is a disingenuous farce when the PC ilk, MSM and Hispanic apologists posit that Middle America is divided about what to do about ILLEGAL aliens, or suggests that it is a serious concern only among fringe conservatives.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/content/search?SearchText=i mmigration
http://www.pollingreport.com/immigration.htm
http://www.cis.org/articles/2006/2006pollrelease.html
http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=research_res earchd74c
http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=1328
http://www.cis.org/articles/2006/back906.html

The general public overwhelmingly favors REAL immigration reform (BUT not Scamnesty posing as "C.I.R."). Poll after poll shows that Americans want well-enforced, sensible, and sustainable immigration laws.

* 89% of Americans think illegal immigration into the U.S. is a problem (30% "extremely serious," 33% "very serious," and 26% "somewhat serious." (Time Magazine, Jan. 2006)

* 82% think that not enough is being done along the borders to keep illegal immigrants from crossing into the country. (New York Times/CBS May 2007)

* 68% feel that the number of immigrants who cross the border, whether legal or illegal is “too high”. (Polling Company, Sept. 2006)

* 62% oppose making it easier for illegal immigrants to become citizens of America. (Quinnipiac Univ., Feb. 2006)

*71% believe that illegal immigrants should not qualify for in-state tuition rates at colleges and universities.

*77 % oppose making drivers' licenses available to illegal immigrants.

*71% favor requiring foreign visitors to carry universal I.D. card

*77% say that employers can require English-only on the job

Ya, but,
Facts do not feel,
Victor feels.

AudiR10 writes
You are my hero! As a former prosecutor, I applaud your recognition of the rule of law and American sovereignty.

Have you noticed how the media is soft-balling the Democrats on illegal immigration? Ever since Hillary's gaffe on the Governor Spitzer's proposal to issue illegals NY drivers licenses, the media has generally been easy on Donkey Party candidates regarding illegals....excuse me....undocumented humans.

Its an issue the GOP needs to pursue relentlessly. Liberal Dem politicians love amnesty and the the built-in Democratic voting bloc, despite mainstream support for tough immigration enforcement by Democratic and Republican constituencies across America.

We need a Donkey Party debate moderated by Dennis Miller.

ps
Victor,

We are also onto Huckabee and Jim Gilchrist lies and fraud down this same two step slight of hand road to feel good am-nasty.

http://www.alipac.us

You will not have Huckabee to hope for much longer, facts and truth come for many now.

Illegal Aliens

In my opinion, anyone who has come here "illegally," is a "lawbreaker." They should not be allowed to take jobs from legal Americans or receive benefits from the pockets of legal American taxpayer's.

I agree with AudiR10 that if there is "no financial benefit to be gained in remaining [in America], the illegals will deport themselves." Let them go home and come back "legally" if they want to become "law-abiding" citizens. I digress

The only candidate who is sincere about solving the illegal alien problem and building the fence was not mentioned in this article: Duncan Hunter.

Fox News Channel and ABC dropped Hunter from their presidential debates, but he is not a quitter. And the election isn't over yet!

Hunter has been my first choice from the beginning; he is for border security, strict immigration enforcement, no amnesty, a strong national defense, and he is the only Republican candidate who has taken China's threats seriously.

Hunter's position on driver licenses for illegal aliens: “NO, PERIOD.”

Duncan Hunter: Presidential material.
http://www.gohunter08.com

Hunter/Thompson-'08

Hanson supports anti-immigrant racism
Mr. Hanson,

The "legalization" for illegal aliens that you (and most Presidential candidates) supports discriminates based on national origin, it is racist. Latin Americans would benefit at 30 times the rate non-Latin Americans would. See here: http://www.legalimmigrantsfirst.org/aboutamnesty.html

Plus like past amnesties, it would make legal immigrants wait overseas longer for their green cards. Right now thousands of legal immigrants die overseas before setting foot in the USA, apparently you think even more legal immigrants should die.

You and your endorsee John McCain both support anti-immigrant racism.




Victor
"Some time ago, supporters of open borders lost the debate. The majority of Americans want them closed — now!"

And in all our history we never did that before. Why now? My experience is that the fundamentalist conservatives are trying very hard to make immigration the new "gay" issue. Well allow me to remind you that Santorum who actually developed the "illegal immigrant" issue lost to Bob Casey by nearly 20%. Here in NE Pennsylvania home of Mayor Barletta and the town of Hazleton the immigration issue is dying. Why? Well is seems that quite a lot of folks went to anti immigrant rallies and saw a near majority were skin heads, neo nazis and other assorted groups. That finished it...


They ignore the tired slurs like “anti-immigrant,” “racist,” “protectionist” and “nativist.” And noisy May Day parades with Mexican flags and heated rhetoric from the National Council of La Raza (“The Race”) only turn more people off.

Folks
Get real! The simple FACT is that being an illegal immigrant is a crime less than speeding or jay walking. That is a fact. Reading here and elsewhere you would think it is a major crime like murder. It is not.

vinh le
no one has a right to emigrate to america. If allowed a majority of the rest of the world would take up residence here in an instant. but we also need to make sure that we allow only skilled immigrants to enter. We live in a technological society and need persons who can contribute to that. The days of importing floor sweepers, lawn maintenance techs or grape pickers. Immigrants need to ber conversive in english as well. We need to strengthen the standards for admission. We are not the worlds savior.

Hello? Attrition through enforcement
It makes me so angry that the "mass deportation" argument keeps being used.

WHO!
HAS!
EVER!
SUGGESTED!
MASS DEPORTATION????!!!!!!
Who?!

As someone else has pointed out, it's a STRAW MAN ARGUMENT!!!!!

Attrition through enforcement! Self-deportation! Rule of law!!! It doesn't work instantaneous, but the "atmosphere" is already causing some illegals to self-deport. Self-deportation is very important. We don't have to spend bazillions of dollars, and the illegals can get out with their entire families.

I DO wish we could tar and feather all the politicians and employers who continue to provide the magnet that draws the illegals here in the first place. I'm very serious about that. I blame them (and the Mexican gov't), not the illegals themselves. The illegals wouldn't be here if there wasn't a draw for them.

And you know what? If someone is here illegally they SHOULD feel compelled to be in the shadows, to be uncomfortable here, to feel unwelcomed. THEY ARE UNWELCOME! I'm not going to mollycoddle them just to be "nice"! Good grief! I'm so tired of McCain and Huckabee's appeals to pity. I can hear the violins playing as they speak. Grrrrr.

Yo, Hal, find a real fact.
Your personal feelings do not matter.

This is how it goes.
Liberals come on and change the subjet.

Will self deport work, yes or no.!

ex-Wyomingite
That was his last deasparate attempt to survive. Santorum lost his seat because he was a fundamentalist conservative and the people of PA were rightly embarrassed.

Certainly. Go to your library and look up the local NE PA newspapers and you will see Santorum developed and paid for the Barletta website and he tried to tie is to the phony islamofascist word/scare. Santorum provided the expertise and initial support for the whole Hazleton effort. Hope that helps you can find the info quite easily

Hal Doofus writes:
And in all our history we never did that before. Why now? My experience is that the fundamentalist conservatives are trying very hard to make immigration the new "gay" issue. Well allow me to remind you that Santorum who actually developed the "illegal immigrant" issue lost to Bob Casey by nearly 20%. Here in NE Pennsylvania home of Mayor Barletta and the town of Hazleton the immigration issue is dying. Why? Well is seems that quite a lot of folks went to anti immigrant rallies and saw a near majority were skin heads, neo nazis and other assorted groups. That finished it...

Uh Hal, yes we did. Have you never heard of the Alien Exclusion Acts of the 19202, the Gentlemen's Agreement, and other other local and state actions to close the US to Asian immigration? Guess not with a statement like that.

They ignore the tired slurs like “anti-immigrant,” “racist,” “protectionist” and “nativist.” And noisy May Day parades with Mexican flags and heated rhetoric from the National Council of La Raza (“The Race”) only turn more people off.

Here in the DFW area a couple of years 500,000+ Hispanics legal and illegal rallied in downtown Dallas, waving every flag but the US. Those who did wave the US flag were intimidated and threatened. The result was a massive rejection of their messag. The "Immigrant Reform Leaders" called another rally for the next,telling the participants to wearwhite shirts, and wave American flags. THeir followers did so, with the same results. THe hypocrisy was a little too blatant.

BTW, Hal, maybe crossing the border is just jaywalking to you, but the crimes committed to stay here are not, chiefly identity theft fraud, and credit theft. Also, the expenses incurred by the cities, counties, hospital districts and school districts are even with the taxes illegals are negatively impacted by their presence.

taxfreekiller
"Yo, Hal, find a real fact.
Your personal feelings do not matter. "

That little one was a fact and still is. Illegal immigration is as real a crime as jay walking. Get a legal code and look it up. You are being played

Lumberjack7392
"Here in the DFW area a couple of years 500,000+ Hispanics legal and illegal rallied in downtown Dallas, waving every flag but the US. Those who did wave the US flag were intimidated and threatened. "

Understand we have the same "problem" with the Irish legal and illegal in the northeast heck they even have Irish flags on their cars - heck the Italian legal and illegal do the same thing. It is a concern...

"THe hypocrisy was a little too blatant."

To my mind the only real hypocrazy is trying to say this is a "illegal" immigrant problem. The problem, if you attend the rallies, is clearly seen as an "immigrant" problem

They need to go home....NOW
We can send thousands of troops to fight imaginary wars for imaginary thankful people.

We can spend billions looking for "Terrorists" elsewhere , but we welcome them into our country, with benefits.

We can send Man into Space.


I am sick of it. Arrest and Deport the ones you see, the rest will follow quickly. Get a gosh darn news camera to record the First 5000 you deport in each major city. You ought to be able to put at least 50,000 on school buses the first 2 days. Crack down for 3 solid months and see just what happens.

Make the Illegals you catch, work on the damn fence for free. Give them their life after 30 days.


Build the Damn Fence. Do It Now.

When are these fricking Politicians going to do what we ask, as taxpaying citizens that put them into office????

folks
Good Night and be well

Illegals are criminals
They break the law by entering. They break laws while staying, and they break laws by simply working here.

They don't pay proper taxes, if any other than sales tax.

Many steal, drive without licenses, use false ID, No car insurance, rape, murder, and child molestation. They follow the weak criminal laws of Mexico, not the US. They do not want to assimilate and live by US laws, they feel they are above our laws. Hell we let them come here.

They are ruining neighborhoods, towns and cities.

They are stealing our benefits, healthcare and our children's educations.

They are liars.

Yes I know wildwest
No one has a right to immigrate to America. But once America gives a foreigner that right, don't you think America should follow through on it, rather than make legal immigrants wait up to 20 years overseas while at the same time letting millions of illegal aliens in so that Victor Davis Hanson can have cheap labor for his California farm? That is the current situation, and Hanson supports it. Hey Hanson, how much money do you make from your cheap illegal labor?




As grandchildren of--
As grandchildren of LEGAL immigrants from Skandinavia and western Russia my wife and I have really had it with these illegal sympathizers and their politician sellout buddies. We are Duncan Hunter supporters and also contributed to Tancredo through other members of our family.
We also live in a sanctuary city in the DFW region and see this trash every day. I am glad to see the support for getting all the illegals, their appologists and the aclu out of this country for good. We can only vote and wish for now. Stay tuned. Its time for our favorite on TV -- Lou Dobbs, he speaks our thoughts.

B. Svara

Xine
Your comments are spot on!

Enforce laws and the problem goes away.

Further it all by shutting down services to anyone who is not a citizen, hospital, doctors, schools, welfare, social security...tomorrow, 8am.

The canard that those known as socialists would otherwise have you think is that the nation will be in discourse and a shambles.

It's the oldest trick in any play book of politics or religion: FEAR

If you fear something you'll stand against it or for it, whatever it takes to relieve the "supposed perception".

It's about the perception not the reality.

Si Se Pueda (translate: Felons Go Home)

Our Daunting ILLEGAL Alien Problem-- 1
[please see related posts below ;~) ]

Not so long ago, some were defending ILLEGALS with the globalist, open borders PC litany such as "The undocumented are just doing jobs Americans won't do that our economy needs done." The MSM kept trying to refer to ILLEGAL aliens as "undocumented workers," as if the only result of ILLEGALS being here was that they worked. Those who opposed ILLEGALS were dubbed racists, xenophobes, and nativists. We were artfully told that today's ILLEGALS were not only making net contributions, but would gradually become assimilated Americans. There were warnings that the Republican Party would tear itself asunder if it allowed "a radical fringe" to alienate Hispanics (still only 6% of the actual vote in 2006).

Some vacuously posit that the angst about ILLEGALS is simply the current iteration of historical resentment toward arriving aliens which vanished after they were absorbed, but this is artful dodging at best. As Pat Buchanan saliently points out, an ocean separated prior immigrants from home countries, and THEY came here to BECOME Americans, and embraced and took pride in assimilation. We could absorb and assimilate the poor and even ignorant in the past because our economy was much simpler and agrarian-based for generations.


Our Daunting ILLEGAL Alien Problem-- 2
Today's Hispanic ILLEGALS (about 80% of all ILLEGALS per PEW) have a different mind set entirely, their home countries are close by such that the socio-cultural umbilical cord is not cut, and today's advanced service economy really needs the educated and skilled. These Hispanics are clinging tenaciously to their culture and language, and the PC and globalist ilk is trying to accommodate them with bilingual education and accommodations. Middle Americans who actually live among the pandemic pernicious social pathologies which accompany the permeation of ILLEGALS are called xenophobes, demagogues and demonizers for pointing out these major differences from the past, and the red herring straw man challenge that "we cannot simply deport 12 million" is used to justify "regularization" (see Rudy and the Huckster) or "Comprehensive
Immigration Reform" (read: scamnesty).

But about 3/4 of us are waking up to the disingenuous drivel, and familiarity with the pernicious concomitant social pathologies (crime, gangs, drugs, balkanization, school and social service enervation, illegitimacies, drop-outs) breeds contempt and righteous indignation. WHY ILLEGALS COME HERE IS IRRELEVANT-- ILLEGAL IS ILLEGAL! Congress, which has TOTALLY misread the pulse of Peoria, tried to cram through scamnesty in several shell game forms, but was soundly rebuffed. Senator Sessions and Cong. Peter King said that Congress had NEVER seen such wrath in the heartland. The governor of N.Y., a relatively liberal state, was adamantly opposed by about 75% of N.Y. residents who saw through the drivers licenses for voter fraud scheme. As Bill Bennett notes, "There is real fire in America now on (ILLEGAL) immigration unlike on any issue
I have ever seen."

Anchor Babies
Hello all, I'm new to posting here but to reading.

I'll be short for the first one. Immigration is the #1 issue for me in this election. I'm a Thompson supporter, he seems like the real deal. He had a great saying I heard the other day...

"We need to be a country of Tall Fences and Wide Gates"

How true is that. No one I have seen here is Anti Immigrant, just Anti ILLEGAL immigrant.
My wife is a legal immigrant and paid ALOT of money to come from England..

FYI Rep Nathan Deal (R-GA) has put forth HR 1940 THe Birthright and Citizenship Act..

Check it out here http://capwiz.com/caps/issues/alert/?alertid=10247066

Basically it ammends the US Constitution eliminating anchor babies... read it.

Have a great day - Use your brain, it pisses liberals off

the PC/liberal dilemma
Generally, the libs and RINOS are contorted on ILLEGALS because they have been stunned by the righteous indignation of >70% of Americans who CLEARLY want the border closed, EXISTING laws enforced, and have little interest in "Regularization" (see all 'Crats, Presidente Jorge, Sanctuary City Rudy, Sen. Juan McQuisling, and the Huckster favoring Scamnesty) for border crashers and visa violators who foist IMMENSE socio-economic pathologies on America.

America can ONLY benefit on balance from EDUCATED, SKILLED immigrants who arrive LEGALLY and embrace becoming Americans. Nobody is fooled by drivers license shell games aimed at voter fraud for the left, or "Dream Act" tuition (veiled path to scamnesty) for young ILLEGALS "who have done nothing wrong." The remote "elite" PC ilk and MSM do not live among the ILLEGAL invaders, though they might pass by them doing the yard work on the way to the club. No jobs, no freebies, NO STAY! Come here LEGALLY, learn English, and ASSIMILATE! We are the most diverse nation on earth already; our strength has been based on savoring what makes us special and AMERICAN.

Correction Victor...
McCain hasn't changed his position on illegals one bit. What I hear him saying is secure the borders first, then grant amnesty to all that are here illegally. In spite of the uproar regarding his plan, he's still dumb enough to be talking about "treating them humanely" which of course granting them amnesty. When added to McCain-Feingold and voting against tax cuts, the man has no chance with conservatives. He'd be better off running as a Democrat.

vinh le
none of us on the right have taken a position opposing legal immigrants. We stand totally opposed to illegals and their continued theft of our social services. But congress sets quotas for immigrants from certain countries. There is no doubt the immigration laws need adjustment and enforcement. But congress has been reluctant to address this issue. We are a country of immigrants and I myself am a first generation american. But my parents came by the rules in place and fortunately were able to escape hitler. But another problem that needs to be adjusted is that any cuban who steps ashore is guaranteed the right to stay here. That is also unfair and that needs to be changed. It's too bad castro another blood thirsty dictator but we are still paying for the criminals and mental patients he dumped on america when carter was in office.

Giuliani’s Answer Was ‘Flimsy,’
Giuliani’s Answer Was ‘Flimsy,’ Says ‘Tough-Talking New Yorker’

Bad news for Rudy!

NW-Ernie Nardi is a 59-year-old television technician from Dykers Park, Brooklyn. It’s not often that guys like Nardi get the chance to question the presidential candidates–much less dominate the national political narrative and make headlines in the Washington Post, Mother Jones and the New York Daily News. But that’s exactly what Nardi did last night, when a simple webcam clip of the silver-haired New Yorker kicked off the CNN/YouTube debate and sparked a firework-filled spat between GOP frontrunners Rudy Giuliani and Mitt Romney over illegal immigration

WATCH VIDEO

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/giulianis-answer-w as-flimsy-says-tough-talking-new-yorker


Jobs Americans Wont Do
We have five percent unemployment, effective full employment. The only way to force more people to join the workforce would be to end every giveaway program for the poor. EITC, Food Stamps all of it. Its not going to happen. Neither is deportation on a large scale. The national debate, the last time I checked was focused on ADDING the biggest giveaway program of all time, the nationalization of the health care industry with free goodies for the non-paying poor. Welfare state tax levels and anti-family policies depress native birthrates and impel the societies that implement them to import cheap labor. Period.

wildwest
"none of us on the right have taken a position opposing legal immigrants. We stand totally opposed to illegals and their continued theft of our social services."

This is a lie LOL. Check out Barlett, Hazleton and immigration and tell me how many and what kind of websights they turn up on.

This is the same type lie that you are defending marriage not attacking gays LOL. It worked for awhile with gays but now everyone sees it. And if you believe what you say you need to do some real research


"...But another problem that needs to be adjusted is that any cuban who steps ashore is guaranteed the right to stay here. That is also unfair and that needs to be changed. ..."

Why? Oh and while you are at it what about all those spanish speaking Puerto Ricians? They are American Citizens....

actually Hal, you're wrong
Any illegal alien that commits fraud, identity theft, or conspiracy therein to commit such acts has done more than a speeding ticket.

I suggest you visit any SSA office in San Diego county. Just a month ago I had to assist my father at one of the offices and I sat there and listened to the desk agent explain (in Spanish) how to lie to the system and get free assistance (money for the slow) as a Mexican illegal. There was no shame there in Chula Vista. The room filled with 300+ Spanish speakers wasn't there after working 50 years, as was my father.

Don't even try the race issue with me. My ancestors we natives, slaves, and settlers from all facets of the spectrum.

You are an advocate that wants to spend my income. When the Kennedy's and Gore's all throw their (illegally obtained) trust funds into the national debt I'll begin to believe they possibly care about this country. Wages have deflated to the point of idiocy in this county. Jobs kids did now operate at $2.50 and hour and employers pay no taxes. That's illegal immigration and it isn't the Republicans controlling this state, mate.

Hal Donahue
Yourself, like so many others who want to justify illegal behavior, is that you don't hold people accountable for their actions.

Entering the country, for any reason other than being given permission from this nation, is against the law. It doesn't matter WHAT ethnicity you come from.

Just because you're opposed to the death penalty does that mean we shouldn't do anything about crime? No.

Your position reveals that you personally have no accountability, want no one to hold you responsible for your unlawful or stupid decisions and as such, you won't hold others accountable and demand responsibility.

There's an all empowering aspect of each human being - choice. The choice to do what is legal deemed by civil society and imposed by laws which create consequences.

You're just a mouthpiece for the over-emotional politics that creates degradation in our society.

What makes me more angry...
than the illegal alien mess is the complete disregard those elected to represent us and to "solemnly uphold the laws" of this country show for the will of the people.

These yokels do not care one whit for what we want. They are bought and paid for by big money lobbyists and will do or say anything to retain their seat of power. There is no difference between the parties. All are corrupt, inept, or both.

We badly need a viable third party that will uphold the Constitution and the will of the people.

Robert
Not sure I understand your point?

Who lied?

scooternyc writes:
Robert
Not sure I understand your point?

scooternyc: Don't feel alone in not understanding Rockhead J. Squirrel's point. Most of us don't either, as his posts are usually pointless and inane.

The Invasion
Hal seems to think that illegals haven't broken a law! What a laugh! If we had 20,000,000-30,000,000 Chinese invaders he'd think a law was broken. This is the same thing that happened to ancient Rome. As has been mentioned here before, these people do not want to assimilate. To quote an elementary school text: There were emperors who were neither good nor wise. Under their rule conditions were often bad in Rome. Taxes were heavy. Citizens were idle, while slaves did the work. At one time the slaves outnumbered the citizens. Some poor men sold their votes or traded them for bread. The people were not required to obey the laws. Men wanted to have hired soldiers defend Rome from the barbarian invaders from the north. At first the barbarians came in quick trips, took what they wanted, and returned to their own territory. After a time they invaded the Roman Empire and settled down. These tribes did not become Roman as the people did who had been received in earlier times. They kept their own ways of living even when they fought in the Roman army. As years passed, the barbarians grew more powerful within the empire. The emperors were weak and there were struggles of men for power. This made the empire very weak within. Does this sound familiar?

I live and teach in south Texas. You can walk the halls of any elementary school in the area and see Cinco de Mayo pictures, Mexican flags hanging, celebrations honoring the Sixteenth of September, etc. all in the name of diversity and respect for heritage. Spanish is taught in the lower grades as part of our Bilingual program. These are not the things that make a nation strong.

We need to wake up before we have totally lost our national identity as well as our sovereignty. Getting rid of our power-crazy, pandering politicians is a start.

Victor Hanson writes:
"But many millions of law-abiding, employed illegal aliens of long residence will wish to stay. We should allow these to remain in the United States while they apply for citizenship — if they are willing to learn promptly our language and customs."
------------------

Sorry, Mr. Hanson, but I beg to disagree. Let's lock up our borders, go after employers who hire illegals, issue a tamper-proof ID to every citizen--so that gainful employment can not be obtained without one--and cut off federal funding to so-called "sanctuary" cities. Unable to sustain themselves without work, without welfare and free medical care, most of those twelve million illegals will leave the country of their own volition.

You sound a little too inclined to hand out amnesty. Sorry, but that dog doesn't hunt on this site. Try Huffpost or DailyKOS.



matlock writes:
I live and teach in south Texas. You can walk the halls of any elementary school in the area and see Cinco de Mayo pictures, Mexican flags hanging, celebrations honoring the Sixteenth of September, etc. all in the name of diversity and respect for heritage. Spanish is taught in the lower grades as part of our Bilingual program. These are not the things that make a nation strong.

I teach in Dallas, and you can see the same things in any school, elementary or secondary. I teach Summer School annually, and when the 4th of July rolls around, I ask my students what their plans for the holiday are. Almost all my Hispanic students respond by saying the day, and other US holidays means nothing to them, and their families will celebrate Mexican Indepence Day in September or the next Cinco de Mayo. This does not bode well for the future of the US.

HUCKABEE WINS NOMINATION & PRESIDENCY!!!
The Shift in Momentum IS FOR PRESIDENT HUCKABEE in 2008

Mike Huckabee is presidential material and is alone able to defeat Hillary & Obama. I am now convinced that those wealthier donors to Romney's, Giuliani's, and Thompson's campaign have wasted their money and if they continue, are wasting their hard earned money on candidates who do not have voter appeal or substance. As a member of the younger generation, I will tell you point blank, Romney, Giuliani, and Thompson DO NOT connect with us.

ROMENY has run out of gas. He has been the worst investment money could buy. His persecution complex makes him so defensive, weepy and wimpy that he cracks under pressure. His fake, calculated tears make him appear too weak before America and rest of the world. Romney’s negative campaigning reveals his unprofessional desperation and that he is really an unkind angry old man. BOTH Romney's and Giuliani's flip flop past makes them a liability and not an asset for republicans in 2008.

Every time Huckabee is heard his approval amongst Republicans and Democrats increases even WITHOUT major financial support. Just imagine what would happen if he got the major financial support. He is the Republican's secret weapon in the 2008 election. Huckabee's proven leadership can help bring America together as a team.

A message to the Anti-Christian bigots ...
Huckabee IS NOT running for PASTOR of the UNITED STATES; HE IS RUNNING FOR THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES and HE IS WELL QUALIFIED TO LEAD.

Huckabee is the BEST candidate because he not only attracts republicans but also democrats to his side without compromising his principles. Both side support is needed to win this election in 2008 and he has it.

25 REASONS and COUNTING WHY HUCKABEE WINS THE NOMINATION and the PRESIDENCY

http://evolutionfacts.townhall.com

Mexican holidays vs. American
Robert...I think you've missed the whole point. People who will not accept the language, traditions, holidays and values of the nation in which they are an uninvited guest should not be entitled to have the rights and privileges of citizenship of that nation. Look at the problems of assimilation of Muslims in France and Great Britain. And the French in Canada. And quit kidding yourself that your nieces are as "American" as we are! Not if they're celebrating the holidays of their "native" or any other country! My 3 grandsons have an Hispanic mother who still speaks with a heavy accent. They have never, nor will they ever, celebrate a Mexican independence day or other holiday.

@ProfessorX
ProfessorX writes: Thursday, January, 10, 2008 11:21 PM
HUCKABEE WINS NOMINATION & PRESIDENCY!!!
-----------------------------------------

Professor, I am glad to see you
are now double spacing your paragraphs.

Before, your posts were too tedious to read.

This is a definite improvement!

However, I believe I would double space
every two spaces on those long posts.

It makes it much more likely they will
be read.

also: DONT USE CAPS!!!!! PEOPLE DONT LIKE CAPS
AND WILL DISCOUNT WHAT YOU SAY, BECAUSE THEY WILL THINK YOU ARE RANTING!!!!!



With the exception
of Tom Tancredo, I don't believe there is one candidate on either side of the aisle who will really take serious steps to fix the immigration problem. They've either supported it from the beginning, or have flip-flopped their position to appease the public.

Good night
I'm going to bed. You were all very interesting. Thanks.

But who gets elected.
VDH writes:
"Some time ago, supporters of open borders lost the debate. The majority of Americans want them closed — now!"
Yes, but they don't seem to take it seriously enough to elect officials that agree.

Mr. Hansen
Republican candidates must risk angering their base by ruling out mass deportation.

I dont think any republican who advocates tightening the boarders, and enforceing current immigration law has to worry about promoting a vast round up and deportation program.

In fact I think any Republican willing to advocate a plan for haveing the Boarders secure by the end of his term while prioritizing enhanced enforcement of current law would walk away from the rest of the field.

Amen, Victor
Hi all, my first time here...

For some reason, this issue is divorced from the bigger, ECONOMY, topic. My stagnant wages are pretty economic to me. I'm in the Building Trades (Union to boot), but I'm not feeling the love from those Dems, who are supposed to champion my blindly loyal fraternity and other blue collar folk. No love from big brother AFL-CIO either.

Tell me this didn’t have an effect on retail profits this Christmas season. The days of trick-down economics have been replaced by trickle-down remittances. No love for Macy's...

Thompson did say the magic word: " attrition." Before anything related to amnesty or a pathway to.... is considered for those already here, let's see how many leave on their own after the squeeze of sanctions & verification takes place.

Another vote for 2guns
Too much noise on how to solve a problem. No need to build a fence first. No need to debate sancutuary cities. No need to allow illegal residents to apply for legal residency from within the country. No need to rail about NAFTA.

The president alone can solve this by just changing the administrative rules regarding SSN and identification rules for employment. Congress has already given authority. The states and cities do not control the process.

The illegals will self deport if the reason for entry is employment. The remaining illegals are then here for other reasons (such as marriage, visa over stay, or murder and mayham).

Mo legal residence - no job. Simple. Direct. Effective.

Then and only then the other problems can be addressed and solved.

Where is the justice?
Yesterday Congress received a very high raise in pay, and San François, started universal health care, and if a Democrat is elected President this universal health care will spread like wildfire. As a disabled Veteran my COLA increase for 2008 is $52 dollars a month. Yet the increase of COLA from 2007 and 2008 combined does not come close to covering my monthly increases in utilities, gas, food, taxes or health care. How can the middle class pick up the tab for health care for the uninsured American’s and illegals? And don’t forget the double digit increase in school taxes because of the “poor” children of illegal’s. What about the poor, hungry children of legal U.S. tax paying American citizens? Where is the justice?

Where is the justice?
Yesterday Congress received a very high raise in pay, and San François, started universal health care, and if a Democrat is elected President this universal health care will spread like wildfire. As a disabled Veteran my COLA increase for 2008 is $52 dollars a month. Yet the increase of COLA from 2007 and 2008 combined does not come close to covering my monthly increases in utilities, gas, food, taxes or health care. How can the middle class pick up the tab for health care for the uninsured American’s and illegals? And don’t forget the double digit increase in school taxes because of the “poor” children of illegal’s. What about the poor, hungry children of legal U.S. tax paying American citizens? Where is the justice?

Mistaken
Sgt.Relic writes: "The real news is that Thompson and Hunter are the only candidates who started at this position. All the rest is flip-flop."


Excuse me, but your just wrong. Mitt Romney is on record in Massachusetts as vetoing scholarships and college tuition for illegals, Drivers licenses for illegals and for having his state troopers trained with ice, so they could help enforce the immigration laws that are now on the books. Along with Tancredo, Gov. Romney has been endorsed by many leaders in the fight against illegal immigration. A few are:

Rep. Lamar Smith of Texas, a recipient of a grade of "A" from Americans for Better Immigration (ABI,) has endorsed Gov. Romney.

Rep. Phil Gingrey of Georgia has endorsed Gov. Romney. Rep. Gingrey has achieved a grade of "A" from ABI.

Rep. Robert Adeholt of Alabama, awarded a grade of "A" from ABI, has endorsed Gov. Romney.

Rep. Howard McKeon of California, a recipient of a grade of "A" from ABI, has endorsed Gov. Romney.

Rep. Jack Kingston of Georgia has endorsed Gov. Romney. Rep. Kingston has achieved a grade of "A" from ABI.

Senator Jim Demint of South Carolina, awarded a grade of "A" from ABI, has endorsed Gov. Romney.

Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio has endorsed Gov. Romney.

I also like Duncan Hunter and Fred Thompson.
No matter what the traitorous Dems, Giuliani, McCain or Huckabee say, they represent Illegal Foreign Nationalist's instead of American citizens.

Does America NEED Immigrants Today?-- 1
People often totally fail to consider the NATURE of immigrants that today's America can well use. Like bugs attracted to a street light, we all get WHY the border crashers come-- the real question is, do they benefit AMERICA as some facilely (and artfully) claim? We also get why miscreant employers hire the ignorant and unskilled-- effectively, to milk them, but inexorably at taxpayer expense. BUT can American society benefit on balance when ALL factors are considered?

We are now an advanced service economy with a slower birth rate, such that we TRULY need mainly educated, skilled immigrants who will indeed embrace the culture and language and give more than they take. Notwithstanding the disingenuous myth of "doing necessary jobs that Americans won't do," the typical ILLEGAL alien will continue to be a HUGE drag on society all-in socio-economically, especially the majority which is ignorant, indigent, ethnocentric Hispanics. Heritage calculates that in government services alone the household of such an ILLEGAL immigrant will use $1.4 million more net in services than it ever pays in taxes-- assuming it eventually actually pays all taxes. [part 2 to follow]

Does America NEED Immigrants Today?-- 2
Objective data (Heritage, e.g.) CLEARLY demonstrate this-- see statistics on proclivities to gangs, crimes, drop-outs, drug and alcohol abuse, illegitimacies, tax dodging, identity fraud, eventual welfare dependence, barrio blight, and bilingual/bicultural/biethnic balkanization.

According to the PEW Hispanic Center, while 56% of the supposed 12 million here ILLEGALLY come from Mexico and another 22% from Latin America (total of 78% Hispanic, mostly indigent initially and undereducated), there are also the 22% who overstay visa's. There are about 13% from Asia, 6% from Europe and Canada, and another 3% from other places. We can stop ALL of these ILLEGAL transgressors by enforcing EXISTING laws and passing the SAVE Act now proposed in Congress which will demand workplace accountability. Immediate verification of status would mean no jobs or freebies without proof of the right to be here. No job, no freebies-- no stay! Bingo! The straw man challenge of "we cannot deport 12 million ILLEGALS" would largely solve itself via attritive repatriation.

[see other nuggets of wisdom at earlier posts here]

No way, Skep41
A crime is a crime is a crime. Enforce the laws and get them all out. The Government spits in the faces of those who do it the right way and pay for it with their blood, sweat,tears and taxes. If Amnesty is granted to the millions who have not paid, then give the law-abiding folks back their money.
And Skep41...here is a novel idea. The only resaon you think we "need" immigrant labor is because we have welfare rolls...get rid of it and I promise you all those "lazy waiting for the hand-out" folks won't have a freaking choice if they want to eat.
No. No sympathy here for those slacking and whacking the system. Get up and make yourself a productive member of society. If the illegals in this country can come here and work without knowing or being able to read english, then, damn it, our own people can work the same jobs and get the helll over themselves that we owe them anything.

This is a huge
issue in SC and yet the P&P (pundits and polls) are placing McShame in the front of the race.

P&P, stand by for another embarrassing misscall.

vic
there has always been some under curent concerning the illegal problem but last year is when the problem finally made itself felt across the country. The shamnesty attempts by congress, the statistics of growing crime rates, the effects of jobs and wages have all alerted the public . But the shameful rallies where the illegals and their supporters are flying foreign flags and demanding rights and priviledges is the straw that finally broke the camels back. We are a tolerant people but the situation is out of hand. But even though the public forced congress to back down from the shamnesty, busg refused to understand the issue and although he is no longer acting as a cheerleader for illegals he is doing nothing to stem the problem. But this next election will really be the first time this will be a serious ballot issue nationwide and we the people must demand our elected officials step up and committ for border protection and removal of these illegals.

reply to: Vic
The punditocracy says that the huge number of retired military in S.C. would seem to favor Juan McQuisling (the war hero after getting shot down and captured, perhaps on his first mission). Do you have a perspective on that?

In business, and among groups with common interests (unions, pilots, teachers, M. Deities, members of Congress e.g.) there is a phenomenon called "group think" where a given ilk talks among themselves and imagines that they know reality. Even Senators who were on the enforcement side of the ILLEGAL alien issue said they were STUNNED by the level of righteous indignation in Middle America. I think that the PC MSM has yet to comprehend the to-the-bone wrath in Peoria about the ILLEGAL invasion. The fact that Tancredo and Hunter get little traction misses the point-- what of Dodd, Biden, and quasi-Mexican Richardson? We have not elected a mere congressman to POTUS in over 100 years at least, and rarely a sitting Senator.

It's not an "anchor baby law"
AFAIK, there's no "law" that says that anchor babies are U.S. citizens. Rather, it's part of the U.S. Constitution that anyone born in the U.S. is automatically a citizen.

Over the years, there have been attempts by some conservatives to come up with some contorted reinterpretation of this clause and test it in the courts. (This is from conservatives who always claim to be "strict constructionists" when it comes to things like Roe v. Wade)

And each time the courts have ruled the same way: The Constitution has it right, babies born in the U.S. are citizens.

To fix that you would need a Constitutional Amendment. An Amendment requires 3/4 of the state legislatures to ratify it, which would include half the Blue States.

Good luck with that.

for Proud Liberal
Proud Liberal writes: 'Most Americans want a Comprehensive
Imigration Law.."

Not quite true.

Rasmussen Reports, the most reliable pollster out there, dissected public opinion to see EXACTLY what people want.

What Rasmussen found is that people want comprehensive immigration reform--BUT only AFTER the southern border is 100% secure.

That's not what you liberals are proposing, is it?

What you liberals are proposing is amnesty, while you wave your hands about border enforcement which you never plan to implement anyway.

The problem is that Americans are wise to your scam.

If you want to regain the confidence of the American people on immigration, you will have to stand up to your Hispanic supporters and tell them that the southern border will be made secure. It's time for a "Sister Souljah" moment from you.

Or you can just hope for such a big landslide in November that you can push amnesty through without worrying about the public's reaction.

I wouldn't risk blowing your political honeymoon on that, if I were you.

lodestar
I can't speak for all of SC but even though there are a lot of retired military here I don't think that they are a large percentage of the population.

In any case, the numbers of retired military hasn’t changed since 2000 and he lost the State to Bush then. And contrary to the punditry, he didn’t lose it because of viscous rumors spread about his adopted child. He lost it because the Republicans perceived him as being less conservative than Bush and Bush had the support of the Party establishment here.

The Party establishment is now split between McShame and Romney (the last time I saw anything on it). The polls are saying Huckleberry and McShame. I personally think that it will come down to a close 3 way race but that Huckleberry and Thompson will be the front runners with Thompson taking it.

Why we have 12 not 120 million illegals?
Mr. Hanson avoided the question of why, with our porous borders, we have only 12 million illegal immigrants? Almost anyone who wants to come can do so. We might have ended up with only 2 million illegal immigrants, or maybe as many as 122 million. Why only 12 million (or whatever the real number is) arrived and stayed illegally? We have that many illegal immigrants because that is the number of workers that the economy needed.

If we had no quotas and just registered every foreigner who found employment in the U.S., we would have the same number of foreigners working here as we have now, but all would be legal. We would be in control, and illegal immigration would not exist.

Americans imposed illegal immigration on themselves in defiance of the rules of the free market. Americans are proud of the capitalistic system and value their freedoms.

However, they sold both for a bowl of soup, when they gave government bureaucrats license to mess with the economy, in particular with foreigners' participation in the labor market. They did it with naïve hopes of protecting themselves from competition by foreigners who are willing to work harder for less.

Americans fell for a basic socialistic concept – that more government intervention into the economy and less freedom for private enterprise is better. Socialism did not work anywhere in the world, and the socialistic concepts that are behind our current immigration laws do not work in the U.S. either.

In many polls, Americans answer questions about immigration. Later, politicians use results of these polls as the guidance. Public is simply misinformed and emotionally charged by, let face it, xenophobic feelings. Politicians and intellectuals failed to analyze the problem before phrasing solutions. It is unproductive to ask Americans what they think about immigration. What they think resulted in the current mess. We have to ask Americans to rethink their position on immigration.

I WORK FOR A COUNTY HOSPITAL
And I see all the Illegals packing the L/D waiting rooms and halls to have their babies and to multiply and to overcrowd our schools on our tax dollars and it makes me so bitter at the leaders of this country who drag their feet, who seem to not care where our Country is headed. To be hired, most position "require" you to SPEAK their language. The culture of America WILL change if America does not fight!!! I hope Americans will stand up and let our voices be heard and take back our country from the invaders from Mexico!!!!!!!!!

NO VOTE FOR ILLEGAL ALIENS
As long as those who are allowed to remain are NEVER given the right to vote- I can live with them.
No border-jumping thief or dishonest slovenly public official deserves to be rewarded by granting citizenship rights allowing the criminals to have a say in how the next batch gets treated.
No big government voting base created with the stroke of a pen; no path to citizenship that doesn't start south of the Rio Grande.

12 Million???
I have seen all kinds of numbers on the illegals here. The truth is that the 12 million number is put out by the government who has a reason to low ball the number. I belive the Heritage Foundation puts the number much higher. The truth is nobody really knows the number but we know it is HIGH.

The pundits and the party elites don't want this to be an issue. They are hoping that it will get off the radar screen again and they have been quitely undermining any agreements that they made back when we rose up and defeated the amnesty bill.

Let's suppose McShame is reqally squashed in this primary in SC and even in the primaries out West in NV and AZ (his home State).

Do you think the party elites will lay the blame at immigration?

Immigrants welcome, illegals go home
Period

McCain Illegal Immigation Flip Flopper
Let me ask you - What has John McCain done in the Senate since he had his epiphany on illegal immigration?

Sex and Legality
I have long said Hillary is insane. Now she tells us "No Woman can be illegal". Legality is dependent on gender and that is being said by a Lawyer albeit one that failed the Washington,DC bar exam. Hillary is insane--elect her President and we will have our first psychotic in the White House.

warrior
now you know why the dims oppose photo id's for voting. They know they line up millions of illegals, toss them a few extra peso's and get their vote. I live in phoenix and it is impossible to go anywhere without seeing the ill effects of illegals and their lack of culture. You go into a store and some employee is too busy speaking spansih to some acquaintance than to take care of customers. Walls are covered with graffiti. All we hear are more demands for services for which they don't pay. But there are more counter protests to these illegals and it would come as no surprise if this escalates beyond words. The libs see future voters, the conservs see law breakerts who need to go back to their third world toliet and get in line like all those immigrating legally. Better yet. If they are as industrious as the president tells us they are, why aren't trhey forcing their own govt to make changes and provide opportunities for their own citizens

New Flash!
Just heard on the news that Los Angeles County spends over 1 Billion(!) a year on illegals (not counting money spent on education!!).

Adding to the insanity: The Governator wants a tax increase to address an ongoing CA budget deficit!

One estimate shows that elimination of payments to illegals would reduce the defict by at least 50%.

Duh...

Losing A Major Focus
Let's get back to basic survival here folks! Would it take another 9-11 to remind the bleeding hearts that unsealed borders are an open invitation to terrorists to come in to wreak even greater havoc? The next time an attack could easily be much broader & more devastating than NYC. This issue is not only an economic threat, it hold within it our very survival as both a nation and as ordinary hard-working people. Wake up America ! We need to get our borders under control.

Victor is right except for...
this statement;

if they are willing to learn promptly our language and customs.

The logistics of enforcing this requirement is as unworkable as deporting 12 Million illegal aliens.

The majority of the illegal alien problem will be resolved by building a border fence, enforcing requirements on employers to check legal status (and fine those that don't), and repeal or re-interpretation of the 14th Amendment (no more anchor babies).

The rest will take care of itself in due course.

illegal aliens plan 1
Have ICE announce that on Feb 1, they will pay a $250 bounty on all illegal aliens turned in by Americans. The illegals will be photographed, fingerprinted, DNA'd, and be put on a database called "Illegal Aliens". They will be ineligible for any future benefits we might confer on legal immigrants.
The ones who want to live here will leave to avoid being on the database, losing the chance to immigrate here legally.
The criminals will leave because they know that the bounty hunters will not be gentle; and if they sense danger,they will shoot first and ask questions later.

illegal aliens plan 2
Have radio and TV stations broadcast nationwide in Spanish: Mexican illegal aliens, GO HOME! Go back to your own country and take it from the corrupt politicians and other corrupt people in charge there! The many millions of you are more than enough to remove the people in power. Give the people their own land to farm, build, or otherwise use. Use the money held by the corrupt ones to build schools, hospitals, colleges, and factories that will provide benefits for the people. If you request help in this, American businessmen will provide guidance in turning Mexico into a country where the Mexican people will want to stay and live and work.

Ron
"They will be ineligible for any future benefits we might confer on legal immigrants.
The ones who want to live here will leave to avoid being on the database, losing the chance to immigrate here legally."

I was thinking of a similar tactic. I think that would be a good motivator to self-deport. Of course, that would entail the political will to actually keep them out even if they are ID'd as illegal, which is what the problem is to begin with =(

Mexican flag v. Confederate flag
Robert here is the difference: The Mexican flag is flown by Mexicans living in the US to demonstrate loyalty to their country---Mexico. The Conferderate flag is flown by American citizens to show respect for the 260,000 Confederate soldiers who lost their lives in the Civil War---their ancestors.

oh noes, I agree with Robert
Robert writes: Thursday, January, 10, 2008 11:10 PM
Whats the difference
...between Americans of Hispanic descent flying the mexican flag...and Americans in the south who fly the confederate flag?

Robert
-----------------------
I believe this is twice in a year I completely agree with you. My ancestors didn't die for the Confederacy. It and (drug lord cartel controlled) Mexico can both roast in hell.

30+ years I personally know we've had people capable of monitoring cartels in San Diego's military community and explicit direction to never do so from our own government.

hak's comments
hak writes: "Why we have 12 not 120 million illegals? because that is the number of workers that the economy needed."

Well, actually that is the number the economy
took in. It is quite probable that the economy
could take in many more.

"If we had no quotas and just registered every foreigner who found employment in the U.S., we would have the same number of foreigners working here as we have now, but all would be legal. We would be in control, and illegal immigration would not exist."

Well, actually I think we would have more. The
current immigration policy does deter immigrants
from coming - especially since 9/11. Hopefully,
it has also deterred terrorists.

"Americans imposed illegal immigration on themselves in defiance of the rules of the free market."

This is absolutely true and a rejection of
individual's right to pursue happiness.

"Americans are proud of the capitalistic system and value their freedoms."

Yes, but not so much for other people.
Especially our foreign policy in regards to 3rd
world countries, with some notable exceptions.

You go onto talk about socialism. This is
incorrect. Socialistic yes, socialism no.
Obviously, the U.S. and all countries should
know who is in the country to retain safety.

What I think should be done is that the US should
enter into reciprocal agreements that would
open up movement between countries and also
property. Let people go where they wish as long
as they do not plan on limiting others' rights
to life, health, and liberty (i.e. terrorists,
people with communicable diseases, criminals).

My take:
John McCain has been in Congress since 1982, was elected to the Senate in 1986.
His OWN state lets in the greatest amount of Illegal Alien Mexicans, so many that the scientists in Organ Nat. park left, because there were constant invasion of the illegal people and drug smugglers. IF he doesn't have the courage to help his own state, how can we expect him to help the whole US???
THIS statement by VDH is totally moronic "Many millions of law abiding, employed illegal aliens of long residence. There IS NO such thing as a law abiding - employed illegal alien!
They CANNOT work here Legally: There are only 3 ways to work in the US if you are ILLEGAL:
1. Stolen ID
2. Fake Documents
3. Under the table
ALL 3 are ILLEGAL ways of employment so the above statement is moronic!
IF you want to see how many are in your zip code go to http://www.zipskinny.com and check out the stats.
The first number is the 2000 census, and will give you the number of Hispanics (that is what the majority of them are, otherwise it would be push 3 for German, 4 for French, etc.) AFTER checking the percentage, click on schools in that part. zipcode, it is amazing!
In my Grandchildren's zip code of 49091 (Sturgis, MI.), the % in 2000 was 8.6%, the 2005 US Dept. of Education % was:
Highschool 9-12 11.3%
Rural K-8 2.2%
Middle School 6-8 22%
Wall Elem K-2 33.4%
Eastwood 3-5 23.7%
Congress K-2 25.2%
Wenzel K-2 32.7%
SEE what I'm saying, 2000 only 8.6% of pop, BUT look at the % in schools, the lower the grade, the HIGHER the percentage!!! UP to 1/3 of the schools population in 5 YEARS!!!
AND this is in the toilet Michigan!!! We got a nice STATE tax increase this year, the Govenor was going to shut down everything, BUT the state govt. caved, we got the increase, BUT the welfare receipients, and the illegal aliens didn't take ANY CUTS!!!
to protect us????

For goldilocks @ 00:24
Good point. There are places where I consider it OK to display a foreign flag inside a country:
(1) At Consulates, Embassy (or "High Commission"***) of the foreign country
(2) INSIDE a building
(3) when OUTSIDE a building which is not consulate or embassy, as part of a group-display (such as at Calgary's Olympic Park)
(4) Ironed-on patch on clothing
(5) As part of store marquée
(6) As part of private-invitation festivities (such as Indian or Pakistani Independence Day) AT the venue of such

To fly/display it openly in a manner NOT described above (which Mexicans oft do in US) is unacceptable!

For any historical connotations, the Confederate Flag DOES have the validity of being American--and so do 13-star to 48-star flags.

Robert in typical pathetic approach suggests Mexicans are "honouring their ancestors"--in which case vast majority of them should be flying the flag of SPAIN!

Costs of ILLEGAL aliens-- 1
Consider the comparison: America is spending at least $339 billion for ILLEGAL aliens and in 2005, the entire cost of US pub. ed. was $458 billion. This is NOT "cheap labor." It is taxpayer subsidized labor cost savings for a relatively few miscreant employers who do not even pass along the "savings."

1. $22 billion spent annually on welfare to ILLEGALS http://tinyurl.com/zob77
2. $2.2 billion is spent each year on food assistance programs such as food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches for ILLEGAL aliens.
http://www.cis..org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html
3. $2.5 billion if spent annually on Medicaid for ILLEGALS.
http://www.cis..org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html
4. $29 billion is spent annually on education for children here illegally and the American-born children, so-called anchor babies.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html
5. $3 Million PER DAY is spent to incarcerate illegals.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html
6. 30% of all federal inmates are ILLEGALS.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html


Costs of ILLEGAL aliens-- 2
7. $90 billion is spent annually on ILLEGALS for social services.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0610/29/ldt.01.html
8. $200 billion estimated per year in suppressed American wages caused by the ILLEGALS.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html
9. ILLEGAL aliens here have a crime rate that is 3 times that of white legal residents.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0606/12/ldt.01.html
10. During the year 2005, as millions of ILLEGAL aliens crossed our border with as many as 19,500 ILLEGALS as terrorists with millions of pounds of cocaine, meth, heroine, and marijuana.
http://tinyurl.com/t9sht
11. The total cost of mass deportation would be $230 billion (though we can get them to leave via enforcement if we simply muster the will)
http://www.nationalpolicyinstitute.org/publications.php?b= deportation
12. In 2006, ILLEGAL aliens sent home to Latin America $45 BILLION.
origin.http://www.rense.com/general75/niht.htm
13. Nearly 1 million sex crimes are committed by ILLEGALS
http://www.drdsk.com/articleshtml

Let's try it and find out
" If blanket amnesty is a losing issue, so also is mass deportation — the practicality and morality of which are rarely considered by those rightly calling for an end to illegal immigration. Busing every illegal alien back to Mexico right now might resemble the past messy partition of India and Pakistan, and reopen the issue in a way that Democrats can legitimately exploit.

What then might an astute candidate advocate? "

Okay, let's not bus them all to the border and deport them. Let's remove them from the protection of law and let them self-deport.

Deporting illegal invaders is a less-than-satisfactory solution to me, unless it means deporting them off the planet or from this plane of existence.


wrong again
"We need immigrant labor. We need to issue work permits to however many people we feel we should admit without harming our own people but fruit should not be rotting in the fields because there arent enough hands to pick it."

No we don't need immigrant labor.

If the fruit is going to rot, pay more money to get it picked. Why should the law of supply and demand not apply to labor?

jdw
i understand that close to 90% ofg agriculture crops are now harvested by machines. It would seem that technology might improve those numbers. But you are 100% right, why is the ag business allowed to flaunt the wage scale and import laborers who will work for cutrate wages and no benefits. If Gm treid such tactics the dims in congress would be up in arms and gm would be facing any number of congressional inquiries. If congress can pass a farm bill that pays millionaire farmers not to grow crops and if persons lving in nyc with no farms can still collect subsidies there is something wrong with the congress marriage to the ag business

A few points
I live in the Phoenix area and the only way we're going to turn back the tide of illegal immigration is through closing down the border, installing new laws to prevent all employers from employing illegals(and enforcing the existing ones). They should be applied evenly whether small business or large corporation, and this is one area where (even though I'm a conservative) I believe Govt has a role. Govt should be in charge of enforcing the law, and so far they have not been enforcing the law. Any talk of mass deportation is simply ludicrous just as amnesty is an atrocious idea too. Illegals WILL (and do) LEAVE when they find out employers can no longer risk illegally employing them. It's that simple. But if only a few states are willing to enforce the law on employers, then most of them choose to move to the states that are not enforcing things. Luckily for us here in AZ, our legislators are getting tougher on their Democrat opponents, and actually getting around to enforcing the law on employers. Many Republicans have been sitting on the sideline unwilling to get tough on this issue as there is a very loud pro-illegal crowd here in this state that has all the newspapers and all the Dems in their control. Just recently however, I'm starting to see illegals driving pickup trucks full of personal effects (piled about 10' tall)with Mex license plates, driving south towards the border to go back home. I never have seen these truckloads before the past few months.

On the subject of John McCain, he is a case study in just how this problem began and has festered to the level that it's currently at. McCain has been lecturing everybody for years now that "they are just doing jobs that Americans don't want to do". He thinks we're racists if we oppose illegal immigration. I'm tired of hearing John McCain make up his lies..lord help us if he actually wins the nomination.

bMadison, YOU are so RIGHT ON!
God help us if he is elected President.
IF I were in Michigan RIGHT now, I would ask the Illegal arse kissing Senator, WHY is it that YOU think MY legal SON, whose ancestors on his Mother's and Father's side that have been in this country since the 1630's, and fought in HER wars, some killed, some wounded including the Revolutinary war doesn't deserve defending in HIS JOB OF 20 years??? You know the job that MOST of the illegals arrested are doing, CONSTRUCTION???? Are you saying Senator, THAT my Son and his friends don't deserve "a better life for their family"????
This one really pi$$es me off. So many of my Son's friends don't have a job, because the sneaky builders are hiring the Mexicans that come in by the van load, and get it done under the table. Tell ME that you would let that happen to your family Senator McAmnesty.
His constantly telling us it wasn't amnesty, is a damn lie! It may not be instantanous like the last one, but in the end all is forgiven. AND you can bet your arse that the ACLU and all the other Hispanic cry babies will NOT make them pay fines or back taxes. In my opinion, we should be sending the bills for the anchor babies to the home countries of the offending Illegal!

Mexican Angle on Arizona's new law......

Mexican Tv has been showing extensive coverage of the people skeedadling out of Arizona with the new state law. Many have gone to other states, but many are apparently headed home, and not the way they got there, no walking across a moonless desert. Nope, driving minivans, pickups and whatever they have.

The Mexican TV has also been doing spots on our various candidates which primarily show Republicans as against the "undocumented workers we so badly need in the U.S. Fairly enough they somewhat cover some of the near misses in the Demoncrat party and glide effortlessly over McQueer as a less anti immigrant type of Republican. It's actually quite instructive to see who they favor and who they are decidedly against although they never say. It's our MSM all over again, doing a job on people's less than intelligence.

You can learn a lot watching the other guys antics. Look what we learned when they decided to march in the streets making demands and they forgot they are not citizens.

In Mexico it is a serious offense for non citizens to even take part in public demonstrations or express, ie., car bumper stickers, your political preferences.

We have a lot to learn from them and their tough anti immigration laws. They haven't learned from us so maybe we should look into what they do, like torturing small time criminals or even innocents with no moolah into confessing so they don't have to find or imprison the "bad" guys. Oh, that's right, we used to do that sometimes, and maybe still do ramrod a few through court proceedings.


To be completely fair......

....they sometimes show their own people, as they did this week on one show, how "their", Mexican officials and law enforcement people "treat" the Central Americans who are caught and stripped of every last dollar(peso maybe) and dignity.

The Central Americans have always said on interview, when not in Mexico, that the U.S. is a wondrous place compared to Mexico where they are treated as subhumans. Don't tell me it's racism. Nationalism maybe, but really it's just lawlessness.

You don't want to get in trouble in Mexico if the only money and support you have is in your shoe.

Costa Rica is a good and great little country, but they are going through something similar with the Nicaraguans who live next door and need a job. The Costa Ricans are also treating quite badly the "Nicas" they catch, and often the very same person who gave them work for six months turns them in before he has to pay them. You know, feed them and promise money later, much later. Or they mat be told to sit in a puddle of muddy water with their little daughter if they have nothing and are just coming in to the country.

Now guess what is happening in the rest of the world. Far worse. And that, my friends, is part of "the rest of the story".


yes, Mr Hanson, not handsome, is doing..

......a job on us he thinks. As many others have already noted, little Miss She Wolf's tears got her some extra votes in N.H., and Victor Davis is more or less doing his crocodile tears on us.

Its not messsy, it could
not be more clear. One is either for enforcing the law and placing American citizens first, or for something else, and it doesn't really matter exactly what else. Mexico keeeps track of its visas and punishes border jumpers in draconian fashion. It works. It always works where ever applied. When it is more difficult to make a living and stay out of jail here than back home, they will go back home.

In a nutshell
A letter from a pro-enforcement Hispanic:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=59 641

For jdw, response to your 15:28 post.

I can remember many times seeing (in DC, metro-Atlanta and Memphis) people holding "will work for food" signs (many times standing at the bottom of an exit ramp at the end of which were several restaurants with "Now Hiring" signs). Couldn't some of these do the ag-labour?

Idea to deal with 1st-time malfeasants
Recently, Mexican lorries were allowed to cross border and roll into US. An idea which occured to me is to use an approach which had been used at Attari/Wagah till 2007/10/01--having US-destined loads originating in Mexico portered across to US lorries, and exchanging them for Mexico-destined loads originating in US (which would be carried in Mexico by the Mexican lorries which DON't cross anymore). For the porters, run ads EXCLUSIVELY in Spanish. Build a jail AT border to hold any first-time-caught malfeasant aliens who apply for this job (if they wish to quit, IMMEDIATE deportation).

For repeat-caught malfeasants who apply, "double-kneecap" and then deport.

How Embarassing For VDH
Usually a rare point of sanity in a world gone mad, Dr. Hanson has misplaced his brain on this issue.

Breaking the law isn't NOT breaking the law just because someone is making a good living at doing it.

Unless you're going to give every LEGAL American a 20-year pass on filing income taxes, the "let's leave the employed ones alone" is a sack of ivory tower rose fertilizer.

We've tried ignoring the problem for 20 years, and we have 20+ million illegals.

So how about if, just for the helluvit, we start deporting a million a year for the next four years, along with all the other actual enforcement ideas he mentioned?

I'll wager that if you did that, by 2012, the number of illegals in the entire US of A would fit in one swimming pool, if not a bathtub.

Then we wouldn't be treated to taking the prognostications of the illegal alien apologists that "We can't deport them ALL!" as anything more than gas from the southern end of a north-bound mule.

And we'd spare otherwise intelligent commentators like Dr. Hanson from the foolish spectacle of trying to tell us that in granting AMNESTY to millions of illegals, it's possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

i know...first hand
i grew up on a street that most all the kids were mexicans...a long time ago...in california! but the area was mostly caucasians..expensive area! near the beach! those kids spoke english as good as i did! their patents came legally a long time ago. i recently sat down and had breakfast with one of us survivors...from that neighborhood..he's mexican..iam not. he hates illegal immigration! makes it look like all mexicans are illegals..and as far as he is concerned..it is hurting the economy! get'em out of here is his attitude!does that shock you!iam very anti-illegals from anywhere..! anywhere!
illegals are costing us over 300 billion dollars
talk about breaking the bank! and the real kicker, after my military stint i came back and married a mexican lady..born and raised here ..i cant tell you how long ago or i'll be dead meat!
been married over 41 years..this household is against illegal what ever! and the two candidates
that have a chance to win that talk aginst illegals are--- mitt and fred ! if they were teamed up..watch out for illegal voting in the millions! loretta sanchez had 100's of illegals vote for ..not enough to turn the election..but that is a wake up call...millions..if you can imagine that..voting illegally...i would not be surprised !! elvis

svpallava

As usual, your gritty but cognizant self.

Liked you letter from an Hispanic lady on immigration well enough to forward it to several friends and relatives.

Thank you for your service to this column and to TH in general. It is welcomed by many of us.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=59 641

Elvis

Good for you, on all counts. Yes, it is not universal, the feeling your friend and so many have, but most of those who feel differently and are legal were not born here. They grew up in Mexico and came later. Mexico is a very Nationalistic country. They don't even like their neighbors to the south of them and consider them something a whole lot less. This is because of their education, TV and films for so many years.

However, quite often the immigrants from other Latin American countries are quite patriotic towards us after they come here; different education and social values obviously.

Hanson is flat wrong
WHY do we have to legitimize illegal border jumpers just because they committed their crime several years ago instead of last week?

Beware of those (who we now know includes Hanson) who pretend as if we only have two choices with regard to handling the long-time lawless -- either deport them all or legalize them. This is merely a ploy. They think that if they can convince us that deporting each and every illegal is impossible, then we will have no choice but to consent to their legalization.

I agree with all the proposals being floated to staunch the continued inflow of illegals. After that, we can begin to work on the very long term project of rooting out those who do not belong here. The speed with which this progresses will depend on available resources, would likely take several years and will never be 100% successful.

If any of the so-called "good" illegals can get themselves legally right before the authorities run them down then good for them. For those who don't, well then hasta la vista, baby. So sad, too bad. You gambled and lost when you decided to break the laws of this country.

Start deporting now
There is no reason why, after focusing immediate efforts on securing the border, we cannot begin a long term process of putting out those who are here illegally. The very fact that it will take many years will prevent the supposed economic catastrophe of acute labor shortages from occurring. If labor shortages do occur though, we can always increase the volume of LEGAL immigration.

An additional side benefit of increasing LEGAL immigration is that we can admit a more diverse population of people than are currently jumping our borders. Speaking as someone of mixed Northern European heritage, I can think of no constitutionally defensible reason why people of my ethnic heritage are no less entitled to enter this country than the lawless hordes of other ethnicities.

The danger of single country immigration
It is dangerous to allow so many people, either legally or illegally, from the same country into the U.S.

"Reconquista" is what occurs when the scales of population balance are tipped in favor of lawless border jumpers from a nearby country like Mexico who have no knowledge of, or appreciation for, our laws or sovereignty. People who, in many cases, are already actively campaigning against the interests of this country. La Raza is but one example of the many organizations that are currently working to establish Aztlan on American soil.

No Huckster or Juan McQuisling!
Although they have tried to disguise their pro-ILLEGAL pasts, certain facts are indisputable. At age 71, Juan McQuisling says "he got the message" from Middle America about our wrath about Kennedy-McQuisling Scamnesty Bill, but WHY did it take him so long?! The Huckster, perhaps controlled by major ILLEGAL alien employers in Arkansas Tyson Foods and Wally-Mart, tried to give limited taxpayer funds for tuition $ to ILLEGAL alien students, then said those who opposed such largesse were racist, xenophobic and uncharitable. Hey Pal, charity begins at home! THEIR home is in Mexico!

I say to both of these open border, PC RINO's-- you can put lipstick on these pigs, but they still oink "embrace ILLEGALS." Mitt and Fred at least SAY the right things about enforcing our EXISTING laws and reversing the ILLEGAL invasion and permeation of America spreading like a cancer, which will inexorably destroy the host if not radiated -- before it is too late.

Victor,?
Did you do this to check out how many read your stuff and or to poll "We the People" for the Republican National Committee?
They sure as hell are not communicating with "We the People", to bad the message is rather a "hat eating thing" uh?

Just us little people, you know, "those people".

This is a trickier issue
than it seems. In my opinion, the first thing to do is close the borders and let's take a look at who gets into this country. Secondly, enact laws to discourage businesses, state and gov't agencies from hiring illegals and giving them entitlements. Thirdly, deport all illegals who have criminal records or commit felonies. Fourth, and the tricky part is what to do with the rest of those who are left. There is a humane and moral element to deal with concerning these people. Part of me would say, let them pay fines, taxes and reapply for citizenship but another part of me thinks that is incredibly unfair to those who are waiting in line to immigrate (legally).

Arizona is doing it
Arizona is now doing what should have been done a long time ago if you want illegals out-- hit the employers. As of Jan. 1, Arizona employers get heavily fined if they are found to be employing undocummented workers. I teach English and I can tell you -- our enrollment is down by 1/2 already-- Mexican students are going to other states who still employ illegals or they are going back to Mexico.
Walls and guns do not keep people out. They never have. People from Mexico are coming here for jobs. If the jobs are not here, they'll stop coming and go home if they are already here.
So the candidates that talk about "getting tough" on illegals because they have entered the U.S. are just full of it. Mass deportations, walls, guns, national guard, vigilantes will not stop them.
PUNISH the other criminals (business people) who offer them the jobs. (Oops--some people want it both ways. :-)


Jared
Arizona merely affirms what any fool who examines our history knows. Enforcing the immigration law on the books works. Its worked for 220 years. It will work whenever enforced. No expensive boondoggle or superficial sop to the naive will mean a thing. Any lawmaker who proposes some new "solution" has an agenda other than solving the problem.
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