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Thursday, November 22, 2007
Victor Davis Hanson :: Townhall.com Columnist
With Iraq Improving, Will Neocon Ideas Return?
by Victor Davis Hanson
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More than seven months ago, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., claimed that Iraq was “lost.”

But that was hardly the case. In fact, Sunni insurgents were just beginning to turn on al-Qaida and join us.

So now, despite their noisy anti-war base, most leading Democrats quietly are backing away from their talk about bringing American troops in Iraq home on rigid timetables.

Maybe they are learning that quitting Iraq now might be stupid politics since bad news — in fact, all news — from the front is making fewer and fewer headlines.

Democrats know that Republicans will use clips of more “General Betray Us” ads and defeatist assertions next summer when the election campaign heats up and there may be even more progress in Iraq.

Sober Democrats also suspect that their anti-war rhetoric is proving useful in other ways to the Bush administration. Their attacks on the elected al-Maliki government in Iraq often make them look like illiberal “bad cops” eager to pull the plug on the error-plagued but nevertheless constitutional government in Iraq just when it seems to be improving.

True, electric production still cannot provide Iraqis 24-hour service — but now the problem is partly because Iraqi consumption has soared above prewar levels. And oil production, while not quite yet at pre-invasion levels, is climbing — now nearly 2.5 million barrels a day, according to Iraq’s oil minister. Plus, Iraq is benefiting from today’s near-$100 per barrel oil prices.

More importantly, civilian casualties are down in Baghdad by 75 percent from June, according to the U.S. military. And Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki recently announced that terrorist attacks in Iraq have decreased by nearly 80 percent from last year.

In other words, for a variety of unforeseen reasons, the furor and partisan bad blood over Iraq are lessening here in the States. The debate over Iraq seems to be changing from “we can’t win” to whether victory is worth the aggregate costs.

Expect this new battle to be more retrospective, as each side tries to inflate or deflate how much blood and treasure have been spent on the Iraq War — and whether the cost has led to greater American security both in and beyond Iraq.

As fear of defeat in Iraq recedes from the political landscape, look to a growing consensus elsewhere. “Neocon” — the term often used to describe “new” conservatives who today support fostering democracy in the Middle East — may still be a dirty word.

But if you take the anger about George Bush out of the equation, along with the Iraq war and the fear of any more invasions by the U.S., why not support democratic reform in the Middle East? We know the alternatives only play into the hands of terrorists.

That’s why presidential candidate Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., recently said that America needed to support democracy and pressure Gen. Pervez Musharraf to restore elections in Pakistan.

Few Democrats or Republicans would disagree with his idealistic rhetoric. Although Obama wouldn’t express the same support for the struggling Iraqi democracy, he sort of sounded like a softer neocon — more worried about the lack of freedom in Pakistan than the fact we might undermine a strongman with nukes and a restive population.

Take also Iran. Both parties worry about an Iran with a nuclear bomb; neither one has sure ideas how to stop it. The Republicans seem to want to talk tough without bombing the mullahs; the Democrats prefer just to talk with them.

Either way, they agree we don’t have much leverage to stop the theocracy other than stabilizing nearby democratic Iraq, encouraging dissidents, imposing sanctions and surrounding Iran with a bloc of worried Arab states.

A year from now, neither George Bush nor a quieter Iraq will inflame Democrats. And without these familiar bogeymen, they will to have to state what they are for, rather than what they are against.

If Democrats keep Congress and win the presidency, they probably won’t do things much differently in Afghanistan. America’s role in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict also won’t change much. And if the next president is a Republican, it’s a safe bet he won’t invade any new countries.

As the Democrats move closer to the controversial neoconservative position of actively supporting democratic reform in the Middle East, they will claim that their strong idealistic diplomacy is the proper corrective to the Bush administration’s unilateral misadventures.

The Republicans will counter that with Saddam gone and the Taliban out of power, constitutional governments in their places, and both countries slowly stabilizing, the necessary unpleasant work is mostly done. So using military force to topple terrorist-sponsoring autocrats, at least for now, no longer has to be a ready option.

But either way, both will sound awfully similar — sort of like soft neocons.

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About The Author
Victor Davis Hanson is a classicist and historian at the Hoover Institution, Stanford University, and a recipient of the 2007 National Humanities Medal.

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Let's hope not
I'm voting for Mike Huckabee for a change.

Here's how he intends to fix Washington:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYm9QQo2l1E

Huckabee on foreign policy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgAEVLSDd60


Iraqi Judge: Stop funding corrupt Iraqi
Exiled Iraqi Judge: Stop funding corrupt Iraqi Government!

WATCH VIDEO

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/exiled-iraqi-judge -stop-funding-corrupt-iraqi-government




The price of war!
Iraqi girls as young as six forced into prostitution

WATCH VIDEO

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/iraqi-girls-as-you ng-as-six-forced-into-prostitution






VDH says: "Another round of kool aid".
The costs of this war include:

1. deaths of American soldiers;

2. horrific lifelong injuries to many others that will require medical attention for the remainder of their lives, including psychological counseling;

3. expenditure of trillions of U.S. tax dollars that could have been spent on medical research, scientific and technological research and development, refurbishing our decaying infrastructure(electrical grid, highways, bridges, sewer systems, rail and subway systems)...money that won't now be available.

4. creation of millions of Iraqi refugees whose presence in neighboring nations increases instability to those regimes and to the mideast generally;

5. virtual "ethnic cleansing" within Iraq itself where many neighborhoods are now almost exclusively shia or sunni;

6. a resurgent Iran that(with a shia-dominated Iraqi government)now may spearhead a shia revival throughout the muslim world, increasing tensions, creating problems for sunni regimes in Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Jordan;

7. increasing unrest along Turkish-Iraqi border between "Iraqi" Kurds and Turks(Saddam had ruthlessly suppressed any Kurdish movements for independence;

And what have we gained from all this?

An Iraq that may, or may not come apart...an Iraq that may, or may not, become a fundamentalist Islamic state but an Iraq that DEFINITELY will be strongly allied with a Shia Iran.

Yes, some recent positive developments in Iraq have occurred.

But if the question is the vindication of Bush on Iraq, including the vindication of neocon, Wilsonian, leftist-inspired, interventionist, arrogant, foreign policy that presumes to remake the middle east in our image, then "You got to be out of your friggin mind!!".

No way was the mission worth the cost.

And the American people have already rightly concluded it was not worth the cost.

Good question
VDH asks:

"why not support democratic reform in the Middle East? We know the alternatives only play into the hands of terrorists."

Neo-cons are only concerned with democratic reforms when it can be used as a pretext to label an adversary.

The 2 most obvious examples are Saudi Arabia and Turkey.

One never hears the neo-cons demand the removal of the House of Saud from power, as open elections would likely bring an anti-Western regime to power that would control the largest pool of easy oil on the planet.

We coddle Turkey because of their NATO status and strategic geographical location, all the while ignoring Turkish oppression and borderline genocide of of its minority Kurdish population. We've even gone so far as list the PKK as a terrorist organization, even though the PKK's existence is due to terrorism by the Turkish military and secret police.

GREAT POST
jerabaub

What about the crash of the dollar and price of oil?

What This War Means
It will probably be fifty years before we are in a position to say whether we acted correctly in invading Iraq. What happens in the region and the effects that has across the globe will take years to transpire. Attempting to assess those effects and the worthiness of the sacrifices in the midst of battle is folly. It may all end up being for naught or it could move the world toward greater peace.

Love the title
"With Iraq Improving, Will Neocon Ideas Return?"

Return? They never left.

LMAO are you on drugs instead of turkey?
"The Republicans will counter that with Saddam gone and the Taliban out of power, constitutional governments in their places, and both countries slowly stabilizing, the necessary unpleasant work is mostly done."

Rubbish! Right now we are creating a strong ally of Iran nothing else. Afghanistan is literally coming apart and is agajor producer of opium. Can we fix it? Only time will tell once the Bush Regime is out and competent leadership restored.

"So using military force to topple terrorist-sponsoring autocrats, at least for now, no longer has to be a ready option."

Because we are militarily unable too without a draft and neo-cons are proven cowards. If they ever were serious we would have had a draft by now.

Thank you Victor!
I already KNEW these facts regarding the "state" of Iraq, because I have a son on his second tour of duty as a Marine Sergeant in Iraq. We are very proud of my son and he keeps us up to date on the latest, as we CANNOT believe the national media! I appreciate your column, it is "time appropriate" and very well written!

Hopefully others will take it to heart and understand the truth! You have successfully put the democrats in their place, without bashing them; this is a very diplomatic column. I value another author who can speak with candor and still pinpoint the issues!

Iraq Improving?
Was it possible to continue to be worse every single month? Doesn't reality tell you that eventually there will be a month where some indicator convinces most war mongers that things are oh-so-much better?

5 days, 5 weeks, but definitely not more than 5 months? If someone would have predicted that the crap in Iraq would take x-number of months or y-number of years, then maybe I'd have some faith in this catastrophe. It's like Reaganites teling us that Reaganomics would kick in sometime, any undefined time, and whoa, there it is during the Clinton administration. Yeah, right.

The surge may have more to do with British troop withdraws or that our new enemies are reloading.

Here's to hoping that neocon ideas die the fast deaths they deserve.

One more mission accomplished
The same folks who tried to hide casualties for years are now using a decline in casualty figures in Iraq to try to redeem themselves and their ideology.

Enough simple-mindedness about the spread of democracy by force (the latest version of the Crusades or White Man's burden). Recall, Hitler was democratically elected. The current leader ship of Hamas was democratically elected. The inept and corrupt government of Iraq was democratically elected.

People have the right to believe what they want, but not to drag a whole nation such as ours into their ideological fantasies, especially when their objectives, even when served, can endanger our own national interests and more especially when those fantasied ends are so vague, so ill informed about the populations they would affect and where the execution of means towards those ends are so ineptly implemented.

Neo-Conism is dead as a doornail, thanks to its own ideologue true-believers. They owe their nation a deep and sincere apology, not continued rationalizations.

Long Range
Perhaps Bush was looking into the near future.Had Saddam gotten nuclear bombs he would have controlled the M.E.This meant that he could have controlled all the oil.That would have been devastating to the U.S. ecomomy.We then would have faced a country with nukes.then it would have been a lot worse.,as he would have used nukes against us and our allies.This is one scenario nobody would want.

union
"Long Range
Perhaps Bush was looking into the near future.Had Saddam gotten nuclear bombs he would have controlled the M.E."

Would have? could have? no way. If that was truly his concern he would have concentrated on cleaning up Afghanistan and working to deny Al Q sanctuary in Nuclear Pakistan's tribal areas. FYI Al Q allies are breaking out of those areas now and destabilizing Pakistan.

"This meant that he could have controlled all the oil.That would have been devastating to the U.S. ecomomy.We then would have faced a country with nukes.then it would have been a lot worse.,as he would have used nukes against us and our allies.This is one scenario nobody would want. "

Nukes? If that was his worry he would have attacked North Korea which has supposedly doubled its nukes and has the capability of hitting our west coast. Nope the bully picked a war against a country that "looked" easy. He even managed to screw that up.


Union Dude
>Perhaps Bush was looking into the near future.Had Saddam gotten nuclear bombs he would have controlled the M.E.<

Perhaps Bush should have allowed the inspection process to continue instead.

Remember those 12 million purple fingers
We need to remember US history when Washington crossed the Delaware and the tide slowly turned.
Fortunately, Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi were not able to convince Washington and his freedom fighters that the war was over and we had lost!

If we remember those 12 million who voted knowing that Al Qaida promised death to all who dared, we should not think that they really want Ahmajinedad to rule any part of Iraq.

I hope we can help them build a nation and will elect those willing to avoid surrender to militant Islam.

Hal.
Neither North Korea nor Afghanistan could have controlled OIL

Spreading what?
Arbusto has a deep and juvenile need to be relevant- now and in his fantacy future history book. His lofty words of democracy and freedom are and always have been just rhetoric. Actively supporting democracy, fostering democracy mean nothing to the neocons beyond cover for what they really want-- an operational capitalistic/privatized system heavily favoring the US in the Middle East. Capitalism does not work without rule of law or the illusion of one. The idea that money can buy you happiness has been the biggest unreported successful strategy--paying the local leaders cash, wads of it, to keep their own peace.

Truely fostering democracy in IRAN would necessitate leaving them alone. The majority of that population is pro-American, and bombing, however pinpointed, would immediately give relevancy to Amedinejad who technically is powerless, full of empty provacative phrases and is fully hoping Cheney gets his way and bombs away. Completely counterproductive if your true goal is democracy and freedom in the most influencial state in the Mideast. Regime change will come, but it is imperative it does not have our fingerprints all over it or it will never be nationally accepted.

Leave them alone. Continue the finally discovered sucessful strategy of paying the Iraqi local leaders tons of cash to keep their own peace and bring our troops-police force- home. Stop pissing the Arabs off simply to soothe baby bush's impatience and juvenile need for relevance, and Cheney's wildly successful pursuit of wringing every last dime out of this cynically patriotic fallacy of spreading freedom.

Purple fingers
>If we remember those 12 million who voted knowing that Al Qaida promised death to all who dared, we should not think that they really want Ahmajinedad to rule any part of Iraq.<

Most of those 12 million purple fingers were in the Shiite south and Kurdish north, where the Sunni-based jihadists were not a factor as they were in the Sunni provinces, which had very low turnout.

Ahmadinejad doesn't even rule Iran, much less have Iraq.

Happy TDAY Robert
I really think you give them too much credit remember these were the same guys saying we could win a nuclear exchange with the old CCCP and maybe we should consider it. Thank the gods that they didn't have total control then. I think oil was an incentive but empire was the belief.

union dude
"Neither North Korea nor Afghanistan could have controlled OIL"

Control nukes you control more than oil and you can threaten oil cut off. I guess though losing a group of west coast cities would cut oil demand a lot too? You are far to simplistic.

Robert
I agree with all the other things you said but oil was an incentive empire and plain greed the real religion of conservatives was the driving force. Before everyone starts screaming by greed I mean good old sinful greed; the greed that results in everyone getting less even the greedy one

Depressing TG reading
When there is a mushroom cloud where a great U.S. city used to be, we can thank the interventionists in our midst. Our well-being doesn't depend upon foreigners being free, only non-threatening (please, no BS about giving those nuts voting rights will lead to them being pacifists). If being non-threatening means Musharaff doesn't give the Islamic nuts in Pakistan the equivalent of the Bill of Rights then we shouldn't pressure otherwise.

It was embarrassing the night of 9/11 to hear Pres. Bush say it was an attack on freedom as if the terrorists were driven by a hatred of the right to free speech instead of U.S. intervention in Israel, troops stationed in Saudi Arabia, sanctions on Muslim Iraq, etc.

I'm not hopeful about our future-- especially after reading this column. When no WMD's were found in Iraq a Townhall author said we needed to invade Syria to find them! When Scott Ritter said we've dismantled Iraq's ability to make WMD's another Townhall author said we shouldn't believe him because he tried to hook up with a teenager-- pretty sloppy thinking, especially when Ritter turned out to be right.




NeoCon Ideas
You mean the NeoCon Triad:
Invade the World,
Invite the World,
Be in debt to the World.

I'd like to see our NeoCon punditry prove the metal of their ideas by serving in the armed forces. For me at least, I am torn by not wanting any branch to be besmirched by their presence.

What to do? How about a battalion of NeoCon irregulars? That would work. Their repellent personalities, joined in a cohesive unit, would drive out any insurgency post haste.

Yes let's here it for the DeceptiCons, oops, NeoCons.

By the way, Free Ramos and Compean, please.

Sorry
let's hear it v. let's here it.

As a member of the RC Cola demographic, nothing stirs my soul quite like these cheerleading frauds.

Hal
You either didn't read what I wrote or failed to under stand it .Korean nukes do not threaten us.Get over yourself and your leftist thinking.

union dude
We say NK has rockets that can reach the west coast of the US check the national intel summary

Hockey Mom
"Hal D, did you see my answer to you in the Greenberg thread? I'm sooooo scared. NOT"

check out my answer nasty one and I hope you somehow manage to have a happy thanksgiving along with everyone else

Bush
I don't know about neo cons but Bush has some assumptions about democracy being the answer when it does not appear to be an answer when the people of the country are nuts. Handing victories and military tanks to the West Bank, and land to Syria as a reward for building a nuclear reactor all seems to rest on assumptions that I don't share. What is going to happen in Pakistan with Bush's meddling we don't know either.




Neocon Thoughts returning?
Not if I can help it. That was the worst foreign policy imaginable. Although he won't admit it, it looks like GWB is going back to a realist worldview.

Apollo Speaks
"Do you mean leaving alone the freedom hating fascist mullahs to pursue nuclear weapons and tighten their grip over Iran and Iraq? That will foster democracy?"

Are you claiming that Iran is a more dangerous foe than the old Soviet Union? Those tactics worked effectively there and without war lots of battles like Korea and Vietnam but no war. Can't you wait them out? Do you have so little confidence in your society?

"That is what we said of Castro's Cuba. Leave him alone and freedom will come to his prison island. Well it has been 47 years, and where is the promised Cuban Democracy? In the hearts and minds of its serfs and slaves."

Is that a problem with you? No war either and the people certainly can do away with the Castro's if they want. Cuba is far better off than say Haiti or some other garden spots. Time will tell.... We have no mission that I know of to go nation building matter of fact we pretty much fail at that job

Neo Con ideas?
Iraq is getting better because violence is down and people are moving back.
Violence is down is because Iraq is buying people houses. People are moving back because Iraq is buying people houses.
Me the tax payer is footing the bill.
As I am struggleing to pay my mortgage every month I am paying for a house that some Iraqi is getting for free.
They get free health care.
I am not advocating social programs here. But Please dont bull sh8t a bull sh8tter.
If social programs are do bad here why would they be good in Iraq. How can a such a bad thing here be so good for Iraq.
Please you make me sick.

If you are going to be conservative
Then be conservative across the board.
Don't spoon feed us this BS.

Your head line shoudl read.
All the people who left Iraq and didnt want to stay to make their own country better are comming back beause Iraq is buying them new houses at the expence of the american tax payer"
Will that inspire more neo con ideas?

Haha!
Wobbie the worm... Haha! Funny, and so accurate!

The other posters with the roberta roberta/hal dialogue is hilarious too.

Keep it up, folks. Happy Thanksgiving!

USMC Lt.
"But since it's still Thankssgiving for a couple more hours, I'll be nice and answer it for you.

IT'S NONE OF YOUR DAMNED BUSINESS. SO KNOCK IT OFF "

Actually it is all our business if you are impersonating a USMC Lt. For two reasons, one it simply isn't right and may be illegal and second what you so often write embarrasses the USMC

Robert
"I agree with all the other things you said but oil was an incentive empire and plain greed the real religion of conservatives was the driving force ..."

I dont know if I go that far."

You don't have to but I did work with Chaney, Wolfie na d Perle

"My take on it this cool night is that I think they were infected by a lot of hubris and OBL gave them an excuse. "

true

"The good news if there is any is two fold.

First Iraq is stabilizing...and that is good."

Yes but I hate leaving it for Iran. What is the number 80% of the people we hold in Iraq are Sunnis?

"Second their (the neocons) brand of politics is over. And they will go down in history as bunglers."

Yup tossed into the dustbin of history. Not sure how long before their followers go too though

Thank you I am off for the family turkey et. al. and please don't let the folks here know that an officer and an enlisted guy there,all Iraq vets, somehow agree with me.

That is good

USMC Lt.
Just post your name and unit that would settle it I think

Hal
Two things Having Nukes and the capability to use them accuretly are two different things.Bush knew that N.Korea wouldn't use them.You stated have the nukes and you control the oil that is what I said.Get off your leftist arrogant perch.

Robert
"Having actually worked with those turd buckets then you have the scars that make your views at the very least "entertaining" and "hard won".

The father in law dealt with Cheney as SecDef and he just couldnt say a nice thing about him..."

I may know your FIL then and I think he says far too much nice about the guy. You think he became CEO of Haliburton based upon qualifications? LMAO


then Rummy came along and heck well things got worse (althought FIL was retired by then).
Waiting for the frau now sooo my guess? I have another hour LOL

"the fake 2LT is at least entertaining. As one of the girls (who are real O-2's) informed me, at least he shows why battlefield commissions are not good idear!"

I know lots of Lts and no bloody sniper is ever going to act like him.

"(BTW it is going to be OBAMA...watch...obama/biden! LOL)"

Nah Hil has it. I know and like Biden and Obama is the real deal but he needs "aging" I think...

union dude
"Two things Having Nukes and the capability to use them accuretly are two different things."

I suspect you are right and a nuke could just go off in trees or off the coast. Then again a nuke could go off over LA harbour. You think low threat? You are a fool then because I know nukes and trust me you do not make idle chatter with them

"Bush knew that N.Korea wouldn't use them."

How? Did he look deeply into their eyes like he did Putin's deep blue eyes? He has yet to be right.

"You stated have the nukes and you control the oil that is what I said.Get off your leftist arrogant perch. "

How do I break this to you dearie - I am a moderate not a leftie

The real and dangerous fakes
I don't know whether USMC Lt. is fake or not. What I do know, having checked the records, is that very few of the most vociferous Neo-cons and their most loud-mouthed supporters served in the military at all, including our Vice President, O'Reilly and Rush Limbaugh. I pay no attention to those chickeh-hawks who refused to put their lives -- or their kid's lives -- where their mouths are.

mike
"I pay no attention to those chickeh-hawks who refused to put their lives -- or their kid's lives -- where their mouths are. "

Surely you can respect them in their desire to put your kids lives "where their mouths are".

p.s. Real Hawks and Chicken Hawks
When it came to the crunch of who served and who didn't -- comparing the so-called soft Dems and so-called tough Pubs, check out this list. Note particularly how few of the Neo-cons and their supporters put their own lives on line.


http://www.awolbush.com/whoserved.html

Improving, but at what cost?
While there's no doubt that the situation in Iraq has takin a turn for the better, it's amazing how the so-called neo-cons are able to just seemingly forget about the incredible cost to our military and treasury that this war cost this nation. The question has always been (or at least should have been), is the cost of going to Iraq worth whatever good could be accomplished there? I think the answer to that clearly has to be NO!

Hockey Mom/Mike
"The AWOL stories about President Bush have long ago been disproved. If you're so desperate to hang onto itm have at it, but you only make yourself look stupid. "

Insufficient evidence is not disproved LOL. Look I must go enjoy my family and friends. Hockey Mom let's do this another day go back and enjoy your family.

Cheers all and be well

NoeCons
The verdict is NeoCons and American heritage of liberty and ethics don't mix. They are much better suited to 3rd rate banana republics.

ApolloSpeaks
You really, honestly think, that attacking Iran will lower radicalism and do anything but kill thousands of Americans in Iraq and 100 of thousands Iranian women and children?

Mr. Hansen
Everyone dem and rep are happy violence is down in parts of Iraq, but how can the noecons all the sudden say the surge is a success when...

1. More Americans died in Iraq this year than any other.

2. There are still 4 + million people displaced.

3. Reconciliation is farther away than ever.

4. The surge level, 175,000 can't be sustained. "We're out of Schlitz!"

5. We still have neocons running about the place, the kind of guys who will lie there heads off, or torture people. They really are nuts. They screwed things up royally and now want to blame liberals and the American people.

John Bolton
For President!

Puleese, the neocons were wrong, the paleocons always were right.
We don't need any more neos running around in circles and expecting to end up incompetently terraforming new and exciting places.

The politically correct, State Dept. Bush war nearly lost us the ranch and compassionate, apologetic neoconism did cost us the 06 election and could still cost us everything in any future election.

We're only anywhere with Iraq because because of basically one dedicated, honorable, genius, General David Petraeus.

He properly prosecuted the military operations there and his honor shamed Congress here.

More neo means more incompetence (closer to liberal is closer to failure), more open borders globalist and less domestic achievement, unless you're an antitraditionalist running for office.

Stupid question
Neocon ideas are still in force and will be for years to come, mainly because those ideas aren't truly contradictory to either liberalism or conservatism, only in particulars. Iraq will never "improve", because it's a rigidly religious culture. A Saddam Hussein will rise again there in due time, no doubt.

Please read before responding
Hockey Mom wrote

"The AWOL stories about President Bush have long ago been disproved. If you're so desperate to hang onto itm have at it, but you only make yourself look stupid".

You evidently didn't open the site I sent to see who did and didn't serve. Nor did I mention George Bush. What that list -- and it is a long list -- shows is that most of the Neo-cons and their vociferous supporters, like Limbaugh,O'reilly, et all, personally dodged the military, while most of the Dems and those who question Iraq now did serve.

You lose credibility in my eyes if you attribute something to me I didn't say and don't read what I do say. I then ask myself "Does she do this with everybody"?




Fraud
Any talk of success in Iraq is a fraud as long as the provinces of Dohak, Erbil and Sulimaniya are forced to remain part of the country.

You Must Be Kidding!
The Neo-cons will never recover from their miscalculation in Iraq. Although human rights considerations should always inform our foreign policy, democracy advocacy is not a substitute for a coherent foreign policy. If the neo-cons were to succeed, Jihandists would win virtually every election in the Middle East. The victory of Hamas is just one such example. The reason for this is because in these countries any semblance of civil society was destroyed. The only place of refuge became the mosque. This is not a sufficient foundation for neo-con nation building.

Secondly, even though General Petraeus's counter-insurgency strategy is working, the big winner is the Gulf will still be Iran.

Thus, the neo-cons can only hope that we will succed in not having a disaster in Iraq. That is not a basis for a "come back."

Real winners
The real winners in this little global ballet is Saudi Arabia. Although highly implicated in the attacks on 9-11 and the main funding source for the radical Islamic Madrasses and other bastions of hate against the West they now emerge totally off the hook and with a Western army now defending them against any other Middle East regime. And now with oil at near 100$ a barrel they are in the best position that they have been in to play both ends against the middle.
Again we're played for suckers.
Which we are.

Is there something going on...
in Iraq? I watched the news tonight and didn't see anything about a war going on except for brief commentaries about their government having some problems. House Democrats said the "war is lost"? A true American would never say anything of the sort! I think you people need to check your facts. I wish you neocons would stop spreading your propaganda. I'm going back to the DailyKos and read more about you right-wing, Christian fascists taking over the military with bible-ladened Freedom Packages to lead us into Armageddon with our friend, Iran. You folks deserve Bush! When a Democrat is POTUS, the government will watch over and take care of us again.

My take...
For all those sniping at each other about woulda-coulda-shoulda done this, that, or the other thing in the Middle East, answer me this.

Can any of us change any of what choices were made, what actions were taken, and what consequences have followed from them?

As for Robert and Hal D, all I can say is the supercilious tone you two (and Phylo Se Fizer when he shows up) use in your posts is really quite offensive. I'm not the least surprised you've made so many enemies in the TH community. If you're really the same in person, I'm glad I don't have to deal with either of you. I have to deal with enough "I'm the most important person in the world" types on the phone at work. At least I get paid for that.

Finally, Happy Thanksgiving to all, and remember the reason for the season coming up.

Lying is good.
I finally understand the Neocon position, thanks to V.D. Hanson. Lying is good. The ends justify the means. So what if we were lied into a pointless war in Iraq? So what if we've killed a hundred thousand Iraqi civilians, and lost almost four thousand American soldiers? If it helps us maintain our hegemony over nations seven thousand miles from our shores, it's all for the good.

Thanks, V.D. Hanson!

Talk about crybabies and whiners!
I simply cannot believe the negativity from opponents of our Mid-East policy... it's mind boggling.

For every negative thing we have done there are TWENTY (or more) positive things!!!!!! Our soldiers are reshaping the world and millions of people are free!

If you're going to send people to a website to read up on the situation, at least send them to something that's reasonable OBJECTIVE:

http://www.freerepublic.com/CitizensReportonIraq.pdf

I can't believe the left is so UTTERLY SCARED of us making allies out of two former terrorist nations.

Is renouncing hatred and resentment of the President of your own nation truly that difficult to stomach?


Neocons Have Controlled Bush
Basically the neocons have controlled a willing George Bush because he is much like them (a social liberal with the exception of abortion). In fact, compassionate conservatism and neocon are almost interchangable terms).

The neocons' great hope for 2008 is Giuliani. Rudy shares their values on nation building, social liberalism, big government, illegal aliens, corporatism, etc. A Guiliani presidency will be GWB's third term.
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