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Friday, July 13, 2007
Victor Davis Hanson :: Townhall.com Columnist
Upside-Down Politics in the Middle East
by Victor Davis Hanson
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Jimmy Carter - a self-proclaimed champion of human rights and nonviolence - has called the U.S.'s unwillingness to accept the 2006 Palestinian election of the terrorists of Hamas "criminal."

But unlike Carter, Egyptian reformer Sa'd Al-Din Ibrahim - no friend of the United States - thinks members of Hamas are real criminals.

In an article on the terrorist organization's recent takeover of Gaza, Ibrahim wrote, "The Hamas fighters behaved in a barbaric, bloody manner, while repeatedly (shouting) ŒAllahu Akbar' and religious prayers. . . . The victors executed a number of Fatah leaders and fighters, shooting them or throwing them from the roofs of buildings, with no trial - not even a mock trial."

Carter is one among many Western liberals who either ignore or, worse, defend Hamas and other acknowledged enemies of free speech, due process and religious and political tolerance.

After the attempted jihadist bombings last month in London and Glasgow, new British Prime Minister Gordon Brown announced that his ministers were not to connect Muslims with terrorism. Then he even ordered the nomenclature of a "war against terror" dropped.

But a former British jihadist, Hassan Butt, argued in an op-ed in the Guardian of London concerning the failed plots that Islam is integral to the current epidemic of global terrorism.

"What drove me and many of my peers to plot acts of extreme terror within Britain, our own homeland and abroad," wrote Butt, "was a sense that we were fighting for the creation of a revolutionary state that would eventually bring Islamic justice to the world."

In anger at the Bush administration's refusal to meet with the Assad regime in Syria - which conducts assassinations of Lebanese reformers, aids terrorists in Iraq and funds Hezbollah and Hamas - House Speaker Nancy Pelosi flew to Damascus for direct talks.

Yet some of her critics were liberal Syrians fighting for freedom at great risk to their lives.

"So much of Syria's opposition was against Pelosi's visit, against the EU's talks with the regime," remarked Syrian reformist Akram al-Bunni. "They believe that these offers of friendship strengthen the regime and increase its totalitarian tendencies, and they're angry."

Western liberals seek to downplay the Islamic roots of terrorism and engage in dialogue with authoritarian regimes and movements. Meanwhile, Middle Eastern dissidents find themselves in an odd, if not embarrassing marriage of sorts with the conservative Bush administration on the need to identify and confront the causes and abettors of intolerance and terror.

What explains such strange political alliances?

Modern liberals - fearful of offending non-Westerners - have almost become more like old-time conservatives in their "live and let live" politics and neo-isolationism.

In contrast, some conservatives have gradually drifted away from their past realpolitik and easy detente with illiberal regimes.

Such an about-face did not start with George Bush and his now maligned neo-con advisers. It was evident earlier with Ronald Reagan. He rejected detente with the Soviet Union and instead championed religious and political dissidents, calling for the end of, not tolerance of, the tyranny of the Soviet "evil empire."

Liberals, on the other hand, have embraced multiculturalism often in guilt and as a reaction against past purported Western chauvinism. We are not supposed to judge different religions and foreign cultures by imposing our own arbitrary standards of morality.

But the end result of multiculturalism in the real world is an insidious relativism. So Jimmy Carter turns a blind eye to Hamas' street executions. Gordon Brown fears offending radical Muslims, and Nancy Pelosi flies to embrace Syrian President and terrorist enabler Bashar al-Assad.

Conservatives more often believe in universal absolutes: Some things like authoritarianism are always worse; others like freedom are always better, regardless of cultural differences.

At home in a freewheeling, affluent society, such rigid consistency may seem reactionary, unimaginative and unrealistic. But, abroad, it can translate into something different, as more Western conservatives than liberals have supported such troublemaking champions of individual rights as former Soviet dissident Natan Sharansky or the Somali-born former Dutch legislator Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

Finally, there is the matter of tactics. Liberals believe more in universal redemption through nonviolence. Evil is not so much innate as it is a result of poverty, prejudice or some sort of oppression. Its antidote then should be education, understanding, dialogue and diplomacy. So don't give up on an Assad, demonize Islamists or isolate Hamas.

Conservatives are more likely to believe evil is elemental, so combating and isolating it is the necessary first step in protecting the weaker from harm.

Who, then, condemns religious fanaticism, terrorists and their illiberal state supporters in the Middle East? Not necessarily, as we would expect, contemporary liberals. Instead, they now more often rail about the Patriot Act at home than the jailing or killing of innocents in places like Damascus and Gaza.

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About The Author
Victor Davis Hanson is a classicist and historian at the Hoover Institution, Stanford University, and a recipient of the 2007 National Humanities Medal.

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methinks ye doth protest too much...
So you were right there cheering on the efforts of Ronaldus Magnus, Mssr. HAlo? Of course you weren't. Republicans are always wrong because they have evil intentions. Dems are always right because they have good intentions. Ad homenim,snarky,aggressive observations notwithstanding.

lib thinking
what can explain this blood-lust muslims have towards each other. It is a daily occurance that there is another bombing at a market,a school or a public building killing and maiming dozens or hundreds of their fellow citizens. Bodies are found that haven't just been murdered but horribly tortured. Muslims supposidly following their beliefs give to charities that fund killers. This is often excused as being conflicts between tribes. At what point do these people begin to act civilized towards each other? We hear that they believe their destiny is to save the world under some loving blanket of sharia law. But if that means murdering thousands in the west so be it. Lib thinking may think there is redemption amongst these people and so called religion of peace. I see nothing but a blood-cult that mindlessly sends out killers to murder all that disagree with their ideology or they just don't like. The problem becomes how to protect ourselves and western civilization from those who hate everyone and everything different from themselves. How do we live with these un-compromising barbarians that claim to cherish death while we value life?

For Halo - The flow of history
1-Our more liberal elements have always sided with statism over repression. For example:
Linberg (the lone eagle) lavishly praised Nazi Germany. After all Hitler was [originally] an elected leader. Gaza is shaping up like Nazi Germany and Zimbawbe (Rhodesia for old non-PC folks) 1 man, 1 vote, 1 time. And don't forget that Fatah was incredibly incompetent and corrupt while Hamas does not currently appear to be either. Brutal and fascistic yes, but neither incompetent nor corrupt. (Of course the bar is pretty low and they don't really care about water or lights.)

2-In case you haven't noticed Mutual Assured Destruction actually worked with the SovUnion. Being relaitvely rational materialists they were the looked for a long life on this side of the Jordan. Our Islamic friends do not think that way.

I will note that Jimmy Carter's incredible aggressiviness in Afghanistan surely stopped the SovUnion in its peace loving tracks. After all canceling the Olympics and stopping wheat sales to the SovUnion surely crippled their economy worse than anything else we could to in the face of a 'peoples revolution' in which the glorious never defeated Red Army was invited into Afghanistan, rolled victoriously into Kabul and Spetznaz shot the head of their duly appointed puppet government.


3-RR was much more aggressive than you realize. Some of this we have known for a long time some (Perhing missles and neutron bombs in Eurpoe, SDI, and a 600 ship blue water navy- all decried as destabilizing by our statist friends) has only recently come to light (Increased submarine espionage and airforce sorties intended to harrass Russian air defense.) It worked and the SovUnion ultimately couldn't compete.

4-Lebanon was a mistake. On the other hand-if you expect to win do not put the troops in a hole, prohibit them from loading their weapons on guard duty and micromange the situation from DC.


What surprises me
Is that, once Hamas and Fatah had their state (Gaza), and immediately began using it to launch attacks into Israel (rockets, kidnap raids, etc.)- why didn't anyone point out that this was no longer "terrorism"?

When a sovereign state (Gaza) openly attacks another sovereign state (Israel), the correct term for that is "an act of war". With or without an advance declaration of intent.

Israel would have been within their rights to (a) declare an open state of war between Israel and Gaza and (b) use their superior conventional military force to remove Gaza from the map.

Why didn't they? Probably to avoid offending the delicate sensibilities of "progressives" here and abroad. Which is a pointless exercise, as it was long ago obvious that it's not what Israel does that annoys progressives. It's the fact that Israel exists at all which perpetually keeps their knickers in a twist.

And let's not forget the total failure of that august organization of international understanding, the United Nations, to say anything at all about Gaza's gross violation of the U.N. Charter. Which, if you will recall, prohibits sovereign nations from attacking their neighbors for no readily apparent good reason.

Of course, like our domestic progressives, the U.N. General Assembly may be of the majority opinion that Israel's existence is sufficient reason for attempting its destruction.

We can only speculate as to what both groups would like to see happen to the United States of America.

cheers

eon

Helter Skelter Redux
Libs support terrorist groups and their state sponsors because the three share a common enemy, GWBush and conservatives in general. They are more than willing to allow their proxies to tear down our country because they see this as the removal of the final obstacle denying them perpetual power. This is coupled with an extreme arrogance that leads them to believe that these savages obviously lack the sophistication needed to run the country after the purge of conservatives, so they will naturally turn to the libs for guidance, since they are the keepers of secret knowledge. No one will be more surprised than them when the jihadists behead them. The closest historical analogy is Charlie Manson. He believed that the US would be consumed by a race war that the blacks would win by virtue of their physical prowess, but after that war "blackie was too stupid to run the country, so we'd hide in caves until the killing was over, the come out and show him how to run things". When the war did not start, Manson figured that he would have to show blackie how to do it, leading to the Tate/LoBianco murders. His term for the race war was helter skelter.

eon
You do a good job of illustrating how warped discussion of the Israeli/Palestinian situation is in this country. Perhaps you mean when Gaza becomes a soveriegn state, but by no reasonable definition does Gaza now qualify as a soveriegn state. It has no control over its borders, its leaders can only leave the territory (including via Egypt or the Mediteranian or by air) with Israeli permission. They have been prevented from bringing their own money into the territory to deal with the incredible poverty there.

There is plenty of blame to go aruond in Gaza, but the idea that Gaza is now a soveriegn Palestinian state is simply nonsense. Criticism of Hamas should be plentiful, but it should be based on reality.

And given your definitions, Israel's occupation of Gaza and the West Bank for the last 40 years, would constitute a continuous state of war and if that really justifies wiping a people off the map, nothing that Hamas has done in that time would actually be immoral. Fortunately there is not really a rule that in war one is allowed to slaughter as many people as one likes.

Hanson
There is something amusing about Hanson's attemts to use a history degree as cover to peddling nonsense.

In this article, taking out the tortured spin, the questions become, why does Carter think we should have respect for the outcme of elections, why does Gordon Brown think we should try to separate the terrorists who act in the name of a religon from the much larger number of followers of the religion, and why does Pelosi think we should deal with the actual powers in the Middle Wast instead of continuing to follow a failed policy of ignoring the people we wish were not in power?

In the case of Carrter, it is that unlike Hanson, Carter thins taht elections are statements of popular will worthy of respect. That does not mean one ignores what the government does after being elected, but if one believes in dempocracy and encoursage selections, one makes oneself look like an idiot if one then throws a hissy fit because the side you wanted didn't win. There actually is something important in the fact that a government is elected. Elections are not supposed to be shams to give cover to ones appointment over other countries leaders.

In the latter two cases, the motivation seems to be a desire to have successes with our foreign policy rather than the failures we have seen for the last 6 years. There may be something noble in simply fighting against terrorism, but it is better to actually win against terrorism. We may be able to claim some kind of moral fortitude by showing our stiff upper lip as our people die in Iraq, but it would be better to do what we can to stabilize the regioun so that our people don't have to die in Iraq. I know we wouldn't look as tough with our people not dying and all. But I agree with Pelosi that it is not a good idea to have our soldiers dies simply so we can look tough.

But certainly Hanson does have the fact that there is at least one arab who supports him on each of these topics. Obviously he if he were a serious historian he would recognize one could find a single member of almost any group to support almost anything. There was a jewish rabbi at Ahmadinejad's holocaust deniers gathering. The great bulk of arab commentators have differed with Hanson's positions on the middle east. He doesn't seriously think that that should be the decisive issue. He does hope his readership is stupid enough to make that mistake.

The Turning Point
In the Civil War, history must record that one of the most effective "turning points" in the war was when Abe Lincoln added voice to the evils of slavery. Without that voice - we might be 2 countries today.
A culture/religion that subjugates its women in various ways - including the veil, the genital mutilations, the honor killings should be called to account. Why we honor this religion is beyond me! It is a religion whose very essence is criminality in its devotion to the subjugation of women. The Terror aspect of the method of spreading their religion comes second to this atrocious culture - and in America - that should not stand - just as slavery was erased from our culture. Speak up! This, too, shall end because it is against the laws of God and MAN!

gene
exactly how do you engage the modern day version of nazi's in discussion. They recieve adequate funding from their handlers throughout the ME and have vowed to destroy israel while others of their ilk vow to destroy the west. The doctors in great britain has shown that if the most intelligent of their group can't be assimilated why should we expect better behavior from those at the bottom rungs who are subjected daily to the messages of hate. The state department will be all ears when you give them your magic formula which will result in fruitful negotiations that will end the hatred and killing that is epidemic throughout the ME

First 2 Words = Jimmy Carter
The first 2 words of this column told me it would be about Anti-American Liberals. So much of Liberal Ideology (Global Warming, Fawning Pacifism, Nonsensical Economic Policy, etc) seems to come from textbooks and/or blackboards, as such NONE OF IT HAS EVER BEEN TESTED and therefore ALWAYS FAILS!

Various Muslim Lunatics have stated that The Destruction of Israel and America is their ultimate goal. With Gutless Gordon in office, Great Britain faces its greatest threat to sovereignty since Hitler. Much of Europe is in the same predicament.

Like it or not, The War on Terror IS ALREADY OR SHORTLY WILL BECOME WWIII. Either we drop the gloves and commence fighting or we drop the gloves and throw our hands up in surrender.

P.S. I choose to fight!

peanut brain
Only in Jimmy Carter's peanut brain is it okay to recognize terrorism as legitmate political discourse. Only in his peanut brain is it proper to give tax dollars to terrorist groups then spend more tax dollars trying to keep them from killing your allies. The Palestinians made theri bed let them lie in it. So what if they elected them? So? where is it written that just because they elected terrorists that we have to accept it?

Georgetwin
Amen brother! Wonder if the libs will wake up when their family is blown up in some mall?

wildwest
Good morning! What do you think we will be accused of today?

Gene
We engaged the Soviets alright - to no avail. They cheated on every arms treaty we signed with them. It wasn't until we outspent them and out gunned them that they gave up trying to rule the world. But to try to equate the Islamic scum to the Soviets is a stretch. At least the Soviets were civilized. The whackjobs religion teaches them to lie to the infidel if it furthers the cause of extending the caliphate. You libdolts are just too much with your going on with this engage them stuff. You may all be right that going there and fighting them does not work either. Personally if I was in charge I would start drilling for and refining our own oil (since we have enough here to power the US for 50 years) and then I would have told all of those creeps in the ME that any attack on US interests would result in a massive retaliation on an Islamic state of our choosing. And most importantly I would have meant it and I would have done it. I am sick of financing their ability to attack us and I am sick of weak retaliation.

lolo
have posted a message on another thread. Enjoyed the tag team match last night. You were great, I hope I helped. Speaking of the peanut man. The libs fail to understand he is a standing joke in the ME. They know he betrayed america and they laughed at his weakness as a man of principle but they also know they could buy him off and he is nothing more than a high priced shill who will always be counted on to make excuses for their behavior. I am saving a bottle of some rather cheap liquor to open the day he leaves the scene. Fine whiskey would be inappropriate for that traitor. Have a good one

Lon
Gaza became a sovereign state, by the U.N. Charter's definition, the minute the last Isareli soldier and/or "displaced settler" left its turf. When Fatah and Hamas proclaimed "Gaza is free" and closed their borders to their neighbors (namely Israel and Egypt), they became a de facto sovereign nation, every bit as "real" as the original 13 American colonies became when they declared their independence from Great Britain. The fact that Hamas has since (a0 been elected to control of their (already-established) legislature and (b) conducted a Stalinist-type purge of Fatah simply reconfirms this fact. Gaza is a nation, like it or not.

And that means it has to be treated as one in all respects, not just the ones that Israel's critics would prefer to be applied.

The U.N. Charter does not make a distinction between sovereign nations and so-called "states in being". If they control the land, they are a nation. (Look up "Biafra" for another example.)

Saying that Hamas and Fatah, acting as the (a) first self-proclaimed and later (b) duly-elected government of a nation they themselves declared to exist, and were willing to back up with military force, can't be held to account for their actions in the same way as any other government, is sophistry of the worst sort. It is also a direct contradiction of the U.N. Charter.

Yiou speak of the "double standard" with which the rest of the world seems to view the Arab/Israeli confrontation, but you seem to me to have a "double standard" yourself.


My opinion is, if you proclaim a state, and act like a state, you have all the responsibilities concomitant with being a state. And when you violate the commonly-held conventions on the behavior of states, the consequences should always be the same.

And protesting that "You were only kidding" about being a sovereign nation doesn't count.


cheers

eon

lon lacks seriousness
I thought twice about responding because of your smart alec ad homs about hansen. Fair enough to take issue with someone as learned and productive as he is, but juvenile to use ad homs. So I don't know if I am wasting my time. I will give you the benefit of the doubt.

You make the point that it is absolute rule to respect democratic elections. I disagree. The purpose of govt is to ensure a just society. In our Western tradition derived from Lockean ideas and JS Mill the prupose of govt is to protect our rights. Our own constition was developed with fear of the marjority.
So democratic vote is part of the game; but so is check and balances and guarantee of rights. For the most part democracy turns out better than other forms.

If we take you seriously those attempting to assassinate Hitler or stage a coup in the 30's should not have been supported. And in fact, the Chamberlein govt refused to deal with these people(shades of Carter). Had democracy been thwarted(hitler elected and given extraorindary powers by vote of their legislature), we would have avoided WW 2.
More recently, the Algerian Military overthrew an election in which the radical moselms won. We know well that they dont have respect for individual rights.

So just because Hamas elected it does not necesarily follow one should respect that govt.

As to Carter, he is suspect. Remember Iran declared on war on us when invaded US territory; our embassy and Carter was a eunuch. If you have not learned from your youth that bullies thrive on cowardness, you missed something. That Carter impotence one might argue is the beginning of our current troubles.

You make another assertion that Hansen pulls a rabbit trick by mention a normal arab and/or moslem. Apparantly, you do not read. There over 2 million Iranians outside the govt trying to change the govt. There are many normal arabs who have to live in fear of being killed.

Hansen maybe wrong in advocating the policy. But if you are going to disagree stop the juvenile ad homs and get your facts straight. And learn what the purpose of govt is instead of making democracy a god rather than a means to end.

len
Well said. I'm gonna print that.

len
P.S. You remind me of a college professor I had once who also said the exact same thing but also added that the Constitution and The Bill of Rights were the rule book to creating the just society. I wonder if you are him.

Helter Skelter Redux
Moonbat Exterminator:

Your use of the Helter Skelter analogy to explain Democratic motives for seeking this nations defeat is to be applauded. It is a succinct, accurate, and understandable explaination explaination to an otherwise complex concept for the less informed reader to get their mind around. You are to be congratulated for your contribution.

lon
what you seem to forget, Lon, is that Israel gained control of Gaza and the West Bank after 5 of it's neighboring arab countries attacket it with the intention of total annihilation. Since when do losers of wars get to make demands, whining and crying about the land they want back. Maybe they should have thought of the consequences before they declared war on Israel. Should the U.S. give Texas back to Mexico?

Hanson
That's it, Sir???? You have nothing to say about the Bush Administration's cozy and mutually beneficial relationship with the Saudis??
How about a little objectivity and honesty here? Otherwise, your comments simply go into the heap of Partisanship demagoguery, of which we already have too much....

I choose to fight
along side Georgetwin and others here.

Good for you, Mr. Hanson, as usual you're insights reflect reality and are spot-on, and I want to hear them shouted from the rooftops!

Why is it the libs are SO blind??

As far as I'm concerned J.Carter is a despicable human being, a smarmy toady.
Weak and spineless. He's so screwed up he calls evil good and good evil.

Is it any wonder Iran's radicals chose Carter's presidency to begin its attack on the West??


tammy
Well said!

lolo
No, I am not the professor. What distinguishes me, age 72, is back in the day when I went to college, I had an excellent education. Today, the average college student is ignorant of history, the Western Tradition and economics.
People like Lon are threatened by educated people and can only give out the talking points of the democratic party which panders to emotions and the moment.

CP talking points
You are another one who shoots before thinking. There are times when one deals with unpleasant regimes because of the particular events going at the time. For example, the Western Alliance with Russia during WW ii.

Saudi Arabia is not a direct threat. It is true the crazy religion and its export are a pain. But that is easily if the European countries were not so PC. Notice, in the US we don't have a serious problem with moslem population for many reasons.

Secondly, there is no democratic movement in Saudi Arabia to support as for example in Iran and in Iraq,

Hansen is not stating there is not room realism in foreign affairs. He is stating that where regimes are threatening we should support the right side which is both moral and in our interests.



len
Boy that sure is the truth! You sure do remind me of him. You'll be happy to know we did some serious research before choosing colleges for our children.

len
Your wonderful and make me nostalgic for my grandparents and professors. Please keep posting!

lolo
Thanks for the compliment. I do very little posting because a majority of the posters get too personal and curse--by curse I mean ad homs. As someone said "A little bit of knowledge hurts". Although the left is worse, there are too many on the right and the religious right who do the same thing.
It does not make for interesting useful conversation.

len
Don't bother attempting to reason with CP. "The Bush Administration's cozy and mutually beneficial relationship with the Saudis..." is a code phrase employed by the hard Left (far to the left of the elected Democrats) to denote a world-wide capitalist conspiracy to create fear and perpetual war to keep the uneducated (that's you and me) from objecting to their hegemonic domination of the world economy.

Those like CP who insist that we must assume Bush guilty of conspiracy with radical Muslims, had no objection whatsoever to equally cozy relations between Clinton and the very same Saudi princes. It's only suspicious if a Republican does it; if it's a Democrat, it's clearly sensible international cooperation.

Winston Churchill was right
"Saudi Arabia is not a direct threat.
It is true the crazy religion and
its export are a pain."
- len

BULL!

This is exactly our problem today. Too many of the so called "hawks" are the biggest softies on the War on Terror. You can trace the London bombings and the foriegn suicide bombers in Iraq straight back to the Saudi Arabia's Wahhabi agenda.

In 1921, Winston Churchill said:

A large number of [Saudi Arabia’s King] Bin Saud’s followers belong to the WAHABI sect, a form of Mohammedanism which bears, roughly speaking, the same relationship to orthodox Islam as the most militant form of Calvinism would have borne to Rome in the fiercest times of [Europe’s] religious wars.

The WAHABIS profess a life of exceeding austerity, and what they practice themselves they rigorously enforce on others. They hold it as an article of duty, as well as of faith, to kill all who do not share their opinions and to make slaves of their wives and children. Women have been put to death in Wahabi villages for simply appearing in the streets.

It is a penal offence to wear a silk garment. Men have been killed for smoking a cigarette and, as for the crime of alcohol, the most energetic supporter of the temperance cause in this country falls far behind them. Austere, intolerant, well-armed, and blood-thirsty, in their own regions the WAHABIS are a distinct factor which must be taken into account, and they have been, and still are, very dangerous to the holy cities of Mecca and Medina...

I track Saudi-Wahhabi terrorism at my blog, Wahaudi.
http://wahaudi.blogspot.com

Not Sovereign
eon writes:
"When a sovereign state (Gaza) openly attacks another sovereign state (Israel), the correct term for that is "an act of war". With or without an advance declaration of intent."

Gaza is not a Sovereign State. If you consider it and the West Bank as a Sovereign State, then they can claim rocket attacks on Israel as retaliation against occupation and total economic blockade.

Carter Was Right
Hansen:
"Jimmy Carter - a self-proclaimed champion of human rights and nonviolence - has called the U.S.'s unwillingness to accept the 2006 Palestinian election of the terrorists of Hamas "criminal.""

Jimmy Carter is right. Hamas was democratically elected to a majority of the Palestinian Legislature, probably by the most honest and transparent elections ever to take place in the Arab Middle East. The Palestinian people rejected Fatah as corrupt and ineffective.

When the Likud party controlled the Israeli Government, with it's platform that there will never, ever be an Independent Palestinian State, we never let that stop us from pouring Billions of Dollars into Israel each year.

But when we turn to Palestine, first we lie and call it a 'Hamas Government' (as if Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas was not of Fatah), and then we wage economic warfare on it.

America could have put it's money where it's mouth was and shown the Middle East that we really did believe in Democracy by engaging with the Government democratically elected by the Palestinian people. Our actual behavior gives the Arab world the right to say that America does not really have any respect for Democracy.

BTW, I'd appreciate it if Mr Hansen or anybody else could actually Quote me the speech or other writing in which Jimmy Carter proclaimed himself "champion of Human Rights and Non-Violence".


rhampton7
I am not sure what your point is. Bomb Saudi Arabia? Stop buying their oil(we dont much or any from them anyway)

My point is the Saudis are not attacking us. They are not paying people to attack us.

As to the religion, it is a problem. But it is only a problem to the extent that European countries have allowed muliculturalism to capture their societies and there past behavior in allowing the immigration of moslem in great numbers.

The Saudis only wish to deflect attention away from them and make money. They have no intention of allowing Al Queda or Iran take over their country which of course would be a big problem for us. The Saudi's can be contained. IT would be a big mistake to desabilize that regime because what would follow would be much worse.

flaming multiculturalist
You stated the following. I have MADE some changes in caps.

America AND EUROPE could have put it's money where it's mouth was and shown the WORLD that we really did believe in Democracy by engaging with the Government democratically elected by the GERMAN people IN 1933. Our actual behavior gives the WORLD the right to say that US AND EUROPE does not really have any respect for Democracy

END

WELL, of course, Europe and US engaged with Germany according to your philosophy. They appeased and only postponed the day or reckoning.

I guess if your 4 brothers(assuming you have such) vote to knock off your parents, we should respect that in the name of democracy and non-interference in family affairs.

Democracy is valuable but it aint everything.

Your post is nothing but cliches and not dealing with serious alternatives and the consquences of each alternative.

Re: Carter. Governments by their very nature have to deal with SOB's; called realism(not idealism)

But Carter when out of govt is free to be real and not worry about consequences. HE apparantly chooses to idealize the worst in human nature such as Arafat, Castro.

I guarantee you wont see him posing with Hirsi Ali or those Cubans who were in the gulag.


Re: Israel. The govt of Israel has to be realistic and its main function is to protect its people. Whether its policies are the wisest for its own future in the long run, I will not comment on. I am not that smart. But one thing I know in this imperfect World is that Israelis's have characters such as you who can publish and rant freely. It is a democratic and respecter of free speech. Clearly, not the case for the democratically elected Hamas who have no concern for children of their subjects(they send them on suicide missions) and have no respect for individual rights and dissent.

The left, which you admit to being a part, seem to have a love affair with the worst characters in scene,

Me, I would be honored to have my picture taken with Hirsi Ali,(Dont count on any democratic candidates doing such)/


MAYBE YOU GET THE POINT. MAYBE NOT.

Clever Analogy, Len

Yes, Hitler took advantage of Chamberlain and other politicians of the times, But Palestine (the West Bank & Gaza) is not Germany, it's just a tiny concentration camp (and the Israelis are manning the Guard Towers) that's waited 59 years too long to be a country.

By letting the Israeli tail wag the American dog, we lost a historic opportunity to actually work with events in the Palestinian Territories, instead of reacting to them weeks and months after the fact. We ACTUALLY had a democratically elected government in Palestine, one that the Palestinians were proud of & had confidence in, and it was part Hamas, part Fatah! We could have engaged with it, we could have expressed our displeasure with the Hamas position on Israel face-to-face, we could have used our considerable political and economic influence on behalf of the Fatah factions in the Government, we could have moved forward towards a stable two-state solution!

Instead, we did the exact opposite of making Lemonade when presented with Lemons, we destroyed the most legitimately representative Palestinian Government we ever had by economic warfare against it. We ratcheted up the already impossible conditions under which the Palestinian people try to live and their government tries to function. We cut off funding, we let Israel confiscate Palestinian Tax Revenues, and we essentially forced a crisis like the one we have now, with Palestine split in half and the U.S. & Israel backing what's regarded as a puppet government in the West Bank.

Too bad that Syria and Iran weren't as stupid as we were. They didn't hold their nose and say 'This Government is not to our liking so we'll destroy it'; they engaged, so it's their agenda that's driving events within Palestine, not ours. Can you blame the Hamas-majority government for turning to Syria and Iran for support?

Len:
"I guess if your 4 brothers(assuming you have such) vote to knock off your parents, we should respect that in the name of democracy and non-interference in family affairs."

This is ridiculous and irrelevant. Under a democracy people live by laws decided upon by an elected Government. What you're describing above is Anarchy, not Democracy.

Len:
"Me, I would be honored to have my picture taken with Hirsi Ali,(Dont count on any democratic candidates doing such)"

I can't imagine Jimmy Carter or any democratic presidential candidate NOT wanting to have their picture taken with Hirsi Ali.

multiculturalist
You worship at the shrine of democratically elected govt by people who get an orgas m by sending their children to be suicide bombers. So, you are all hot to trot on form and not substance.

One cannot isolate the election from the big picture. And that is this. Right or wrong in some abstract sense the international community carved out Israel and arab lands from old Ottoman empire and then the british take over of it.

The arabs rejected this and went to war. The israelis won because of their superior culture--clearly not because of numbers and weapons. Since the ending of that war there were incursions into its territories of the Arab lands. Then we have the shutting down of waterways which are the lifeline of any country leading to the '67 war which again Israel won.

For whatever reason, the arabs are not multicultural when it comes to Israel and it appears to mentally drive them out of their minds that the only successful culture which built itself up from a desert is the only succesful culture in bring prosperity to its people.

So one cannot isolate Hamas from the general picture. Apparantly, you don't take Hamas seriously in their stated goals to exterminate the Jews in Israel. One would think if someone so clever as you were advising them, you would tell them to tone down their rhetoric and dont advertise it and hence fool everyone. But like the rest of the fanatics they are not interested in that. Sincerity beats all.
Now, is it very difficult for you to imagine that one might not trust Hamas. Who cares if was democratically elected. That is a procedure. And I can see no argument to respect a procedure which produces bad results.
Democracy is not perfect but if the KKK or the communist party were elected here, I would see no reason to respect that election. I would either leave the country or join a revolutionary movement. Unfortunately,many on the left are out of their minds and see Bush as a nazi or some relic of the KKK. The left is like hamas.

So I am not impressed with your arguments that the Hamas govt should have been rewarded. Maybe is word we use when we hope. And what I see from you is some kind of hope based on what I dont know that Hamas will evolve into rational people. But you should be wise enough to see the other side and apparantly you do not want to. Jimmy Carter, France all thought that Khomeni was the savior. Same kind of hope you have. Interestly enough the pschopath Sadamm Hussein read Khomeni better than the gushy liberals and expelled him from Iraq.

So, yes, you can make your argument to support hamas, but you should also understand that there are reasons not to. So what is the right answer. You are so sure of yourself that smells of fanaticism. I am suspiious of your formal arguments re democratic elections. That in and of itself is not sufficient. You need something more. And what is that something more. It has to be that it would evolve into a non-fanatic islamic nonsense and into a rational goverment. What is your evidence to support such. The Iranian people and the left in this country hailed the Khomeni revolution and supported it democratically. The cuban people hailed Castro. The French thru the democratic process at first supported the Vichy regime in WW II.

Hope springs eternal. I have my strong doubts when so called rational people like Hamas, Bel Laden et al can send young children to be suicide bombers that such people can be trusted.

AS for Hirsi Ali, all the liberal reviews were negative; They are uncomfortable with her. the "war monger" Hitchens is her friend. The moderately conservative AEI took her in. The so called left in Holland crapped in their pants over her. She was too honest about the truth.

I will you a story you dont know. Hitchens arranged for Salmon Rushdie to meet Bill Clinton in the white house. Hitchens at the risk to himself and his family was hiding him. When it got out that Rushdie was at the White House, guess what Clinton did. Not hard to guess from somone who called Paula Jones White Trash and Monica a stalker. Clinton stated that Rushdie invited himself to the White House and it was just accidental that he met him. Rudshdie, Hirsi Ali are in the same boat; poison to the Dem party who think they have the moslem vote tied up in this country and they wont risk losing that by standing for principle.

Wake up and smell the coffee. You cant have your cake and eat it. You have allied yourself with worst in humanity.

Reply to Len
len:
"You worship at the shrine of democratically elected govt by people who get an orgasm by sending their children to be suicide bombers. So, you are all hot to trot on form and not substance."

This is truly a first, no one at TH has ever accused me of supporting elected democracy too much. And until you produce Semen-Stained robes as evidence, I'll regard your 2nd statement as hate speech and slander, meant to dehumanize your opponents to justify your treatment of them, much as the Nazis sought to paint the Jews as less than human.

I abhor suicide bombings as well as any other kind of terrorism, but I regard it as the logical extremity of despair and hopelessness. A young person born in the same refugee camp that his great-grandparents were driven into, having grown up on stories of the homeland they lost, is of course vulnerable to being manipulated into performing such atrocities.

len:
"Right or wrong in some abstract sense the international community carved out Israel and arab lands from old Ottoman empire and then the british take over of it.
The arabs rejected this and went to war. The israelis won because of their superior culture"

The Arabs fighting Israelis fortunately had different agendas, often at cross-purposes with each other. I'm glad they lost. But if I were an Arab in 1947, and I saw what a U.N. committee with no Arab representation (save Iran) gave the Jews, and how much more it was than what they had actually settled by then, I might have rejected it, too.

And I blame the 1948 war mostly on the Jews themselves. With the bombing of the King David Hotel they culminated some two decades of not just biting but trying to chew off the hand that was feeding them. The war-weary (and war-bankrupt) British should not have left, America and the U.N. should have massively assisted, but one way or another that region needed at least another decade of mandate rule during which a stable and peaceful Israel and Palestine might have been established.

A person more cynical than I might claim that Israel had calculated it's odds of winning the war with the Arabs quite accurately, and failed only to conquer Eretz Yisraoel from the Sinai to the Euphrates.

len:
"...So one cannot isolate Hamas from the general picture. Apparantly, you don't take Hamas seriously in their stated goals to exterminate the Jews in Israel."

Of course I take that threat seriously, just as I take seriously the Likud party's stated aim that there will never ever be an Independent Palestinian State. I reject both positions as inimical to any hope of a stable peace in the Middle East.

Were I the president of the USA, should I ignore, reject, and wage economic warfare against any Israeli government with Likud representation? Should I tell myself that it's for the Israeli people's own good, and that if only I rain down poverty, chaos, deprivation and enslavement making their very existence a Living Hell for a long enough time, then they will achieve enlightenment and select a government more to my taste?

len:
"So I am not impressed with your arguments that the Hamas govt should have been rewarded. Maybe is word we use when we hope. And what I see from you is some kind of hope based on what I dont know that Hamas will evolve into rational people. But you should be wise enough to see the other side and apparantly you do not want to."

All I can see is that since the 1950's the policy of the USA, and to the extent that we could control it the policy of the rest of the Western World, has pretty much followed your ideology. Israel is good, Israel can do no wrong, Israel should do whatever it wants and America should keep it's Mouth Shut and it's two-Billion-plus dollars/year flowing, and the Palestinians and the Arabs are evil, they can do no Right, every single thing they do has zero justification and civilization's only hope is to beat them all into submission and/or extinction.

That's been the way of things, and frankly the results flat-out SUCK. In over sixty years this approach has produced no peace, no justice, just an endless strife with no hope for anything better in sight. It's time for something different.

Or it was time, anyway. The Palestinians had made a real change, they threw out an ineffective and corrupt old guard. Now, there's just chaos with an Israeli-occupied puppet West Bank and Hamasistan or something in Gaza.

len:
"Jimmy Carter, France all thought that Khomeni was the savior. Same kind of hope you have. Interestly enough the pschopath Sadamm Hussein read Khomeni better than the gushy liberals and expelled him from Iraq."

The savior for whom, Western Oil Companies?
Are you capable of recognizing that what's best for the USA, the West and Israel is not necessarily what's best for the people of Iran, or does that idea just make your head explode?
Were the Iranian people better off under the Shah and his SAVAK, or did he just do a better job of serving foreign interests (ours) by keeping that oil pumping, so we could stay fat, happy and stupid ignoring what he did to his people?

I wish to God that Islamic Religious Fanatics did not rule Iran, but can you blame the Iranians for throwing out the Shah? Wouldn't it have been great if America and the West had swallowed it's pride over the hostage crisis and ENGAGED with the new government, perhaps trying to help the Fatah-- err, I mean secularists-- achieve a more workable balance with the clerics than the wild-eyed, Islamic-radical, terror-exporting Ayatollah-run government they have now?

len:
"So, yes, you can make your argument to support hamas, but you should also understand that there are reasons not to. So what is the right answer. You are so sure of yourself that smells of fanaticism. I am suspiious of your formal arguments re democratic elections."

If I've made any sense to you at all you should see that my reasons for supporting THAT particular democratic government at THAT particular time are nothing other than Realistic, Opportunistic even. And not just for the cause of Israeli-Palestinian relations. A few degrees of longitude East we're engaged in thoroughly stupid Iraq war, as ruinous to the cause of the War on Terrorism as it is to that of Middle East peace, but we are desperately trying to graft some kind of Democratic government onto a people who view the concept as something from another planet. We complain and punish them when they try to manipulate the democratic process to serve their own needs. "It'll never work if you don't have faith in the process and give it an honest chance," we tell them. And then we turn around and over in the Palestinian territories we----
ahhh, if I have to keep rubbing your nose in it like this then I'm wasting my time, you're just incapable of recognizing hypocrisy and it's consequences.

len:
"The Iranian people and the left in this country hailed the Khomeni revolution and supported it democratically. The cuban people hailed Castro. The French thru the democratic process at first supported the Vichy regime in WW II."

I don't know about the Vichy France, if they were elected it was with Nazis encouraging the voters at gunpoint, but from Iran and Cuba I learn this:

If we support evil regimes that oppress their peoples (like the Shah and Batista) because those governments serve our interests, those governments will eventually get kicked out and be replaced by other governments. Their peoples may or may not like these new Governments, but it's a safe bet that WE will definitely not like them, and they WONT serve our interests.

len:
"AS for Hirsi Ali, all the liberal reviews were negative; They are uncomfortable with her."

What little I've heard of Hirsi Ali (until now) was from the dreaded mainstream media (NPR, I think) and it was complimentary.

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