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Friday, July 13, 2007
Victor Davis Hanson :: Townhall.com Columnist
The New York Times Surrenders
by Victor Davis Hanson
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On July 8, the New York Times ran an historic editorial entitled “The Road Home,” demanding an immediate American withdrawal from Iraq. It is rare that an editorial gets almost everything wrong, but “The Road Home” pulls it off. Consider, point by point, its confused—and immoral—defeatism.

1. “It is time for the United States to leave Iraq, without any more delay than the Pentagon needs to organize an orderly exit.”

Rarely in military history has an “orderly” withdrawal followed a theater-sized defeat and the flight of several divisions. Abruptly leaving Iraq would be a logistical and humanitarian catastrophe. And when scenes of carnage begin appearing on TV screens here about latte time, will the Times then call for “humanitarian” action?

2. “Like many Americans, we have put off that conclusion, waiting for a sign that President Bush was seriously trying to dig the United States out of the disaster he created by invading Iraq without sufficient cause, in the face of global opposition, and without a plan to stabilize the country afterward.”

We’ll get to the war’s “sufficient cause,” but first let’s address the other two charges that the Times levels here against President Bush. Both houses of Congress voted for 23 writs authorizing the war with Iraq—a post-9/11 confirmation of the official policy of regime change in Iraq that President Clinton originated. Supporters of the war included 70 percent of the American public in April 2003; the majority of NATO members; a coalition with more participants than the United Nations alliance had in the Korean War; and a host of politicians and pundits as diverse as Joe Biden, William F. Buckley, Wesley Clark, Hillary Clinton, Francis Fukuyama, Kenneth Pollack, Harry Reid, Andrew Sullivan, Thomas Friedman, and George Will.

And there was a Pentagon postwar plan to stabilize the country, but it assumed a decisive defeat and elimination of enemy forces, not a three-week war in which the majority of Baathists and their terrorist allies fled into the shadows to await a more opportune time to reemerge, under quite different rules of engagement.

3. “While Mr. Bush scorns deadlines, he kept promising breakthroughs—after elections, after a constitution, after sending in thousands more troops. But those milestones came and went without any progress toward a stable, democratic Iraq or a path for withdrawal. It is frighteningly clear that Mr. Bush’s plan is to stay the course as long as he is president and dump the mess on his successor. Whatever his cause was, it is lost.”

Of course there were breakthroughs: most notably, millions of Iraqis’ risking their lives to vote. An elected government remains in power, under a constitution far more liberal than any other in the Arab Middle East. In the region at large, Libya, following the war, gave up its advanced arsenal of weapons of mass destruction; Syria fled Lebanon; A.Q. Khan’s nuclear ring was shut down. And despite the efforts of Iran, Syria, and Sunni extremists in Jordan and Saudi Arabia, a plurality of Iraqis still prefer the chaotic and dangerous present to the sure methodical slaughter of their recent Saddamite past.

The Times wonders what Bush’s cause was. Easy to explain, if not easy to achieve: to help foster a constitutional government in the place of a genocidal regime that had engaged in a de facto war with the United States since 1991, and harbored or subsidized terrorists like Abu Nidal, Abu Abbas, at least one plotter of the 1993 World Trade Center bombing, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, al-Qaida affiliates in Kurdistan, and suicide bombers in Gaza and the West Bank. It was a bold attempt to break with the West’s previous practices, both liberal (appeasement of terrorists) and conservative (doing business with Saddam, selling arms to Iran, and overlooking the House of Saud’s funding of terrorists).

Is that cause in fact “lost”? The vast majority of 160,000 troops in harm’s way don’t think so—despite a home front where U.S. senators have publicly compared them with Nazis, Stalinists, Pol Pot’s Khmer Rouge, and Saddam Hussein’s jailers, and where the media’s Iraqi narrative has focused obsessively on Abu Ghraib, Guantánamo, and serial leaks of classified information, with little interest in the horrific nature of the Islamists in Iraq or the courageous efforts of many Iraqis to stop them.

4. “Continuing to sacrifice the lives and limbs of American soldiers is wrong. The war is sapping the strength of the nation’s alliances and its military forces. It is a dangerous diversion from the life-and-death struggle against terrorists. It is an increasing burden on American taxpayers, and it is a betrayal of a world that needs the wise application of American power and principles.”

The military is stretched, but hardly broken, despite having tens of thousands of troops stationed in Japan, Korea, the Balkans, Germany, and Italy, years—and decades—after we removed dictatorships by force and began efforts to establish democracies in those once-frightening places. As for whether Iraq is a diversion from the war on terror: al-Qaida bigwig Ayman al-Zawahiri, like George W. Bush, has said that Iraq is the primary front in his efforts to attack the United States and its interests—and he often despairs about the progress of jihad there. Our enemies, like al-Qaida, Iran, and Syria, as well as opportunistic neutrals like China and Russia, are watching closely to see whether America will betray its principles in Iraq.

5. “Americans must be clear that Iraq, and the region around it, could be even bloodier and more chaotic after Americans leave. There could be reprisals against those who worked with American forces, further ethnic cleansing, even genocide. Potentially destabilizing refugee flows could hit Jordan and Syria. Iran and Turkey could be tempted to make power grabs.”

The Times should abandon the subjunctive mood. The catastrophes that it matter-of-factly suggests have ample precedents in Vietnam. Apparently, we should abandon millions of Iraqis to the jihadists (whether Wahhabis or Khomeinites), expect mass murders in the wake of our flight—“even genocide”—and then chalk up the slaughter to Bush’s folly. And if that seems crazy, consider what follows, an Orwellian account of the mechanics of our flight:

6. “The main road south to Kuwait is notoriously vulnerable to roadside bomb attacks. Soldiers, weapons and vehicles will need to be deployed to secure bases while airlift and sealift operations are organized. Withdrawal routes will have to be guarded. The exit must be everything the invasion was not: based on reality and backed by adequate resources.

“The United States should explore using Kurdish territory in the north of Iraq as a secure staging area. Being able to use bases and ports in Turkey would also make withdrawal faster and safer. Turkey has been an inconsistent ally in this war, but like other nations, it should realize that shouldering part of the burden of the aftermath is in its own interest.”

This insistence on planned defeat, following incessant criticism of potential victory, is lunatic. The Times’s frustration with Turkey and other “inconsistent” allies won’t end with our withdrawal and defeat. Like everyone in the region, the Turks want to ally with winners and distance themselves from losers—and care little about sermons from the likes of the Times editors. The ideas about Kurdish territory and Turkey are simply cover for the likely consequences of defeat: once we are gone and a federated Iraq is finished, Kurdistan’s democratic success is fair game for Turkey, which—with the assent of opportunistic allies—will move to end it by crushing our Kurdish friends.

7. “Despite President Bush’s repeated claims, Al Qaeda had no significant foothold in Iraq before the invasion, which gave it new base camps, new recruits and new prestige.

“This war diverted Pentagon resources from Afghanistan, where the military had a real chance to hunt down Al Qaeda’s leaders. It alienated essential allies in the war against terrorism. It drained the strength and readiness of American troops.”

The Times raises the old charge that if we weren’t in Iraq, neither would be al-Qaida—more of whose members we have killed in Iraq than anywhere else. In 1944, Japan had relatively few soldiers in Okinawa; when the Japanese learned that we planned to invade in 1945, they increased their forces there. Did the subsequent carnage—four times the number of U.S. dead as in Iraq, by the way, in one-sixteenth the time—prove our actions ill considered? Likewise, no Soviets were in Eastern Europe until we moved to attack and destroy Hitler, who had kept communists out. Did the resulting Iron Curtain mean that it was a mistake to deter German aggression?

And if the Times sees the war in Afghanistan as so important, why didn’t it support an all-out war against the Taliban and al-Qaida, as it apparently does now, when we were solely in Afghanistan?

8. “Iraq may fragment into separate Kurdish, Sunni and Shiite republics, and American troops are not going to stop that from happening. . . . To start, Washington must turn to the United Nations, which Mr. Bush spurned and ridiculed as a preface to war.”

But Bush did go to the United Nations, which, had it enforced its own resolutions, might have prevented the war. In fact, the Bush administration’s engagement with the UN contrasts sharply with President Clinton’s snub of that organization during the U.S.-led bombing of the Balkans—unleashed, unlike Iraq, without Congressional approval. The Times also neglects to mention that the UN was knee-deep in the mess of its cash cow Iraq, from its appeasement of the genocidal Hussein regime to its graft-ridden, $50 billion oil-for-food scandal, reaching the highest echelons of Kofi Annan’s UN administration.

9. “Washington also has to mend fences with allies. There are new governments in Britain, France and Germany that did not participate in the fight over starting this war and are eager to get beyond it. But that will still require a measure of humility and a commitment to multilateral action that this administration has never shown. And, however angry they were with President Bush for creating this mess, those nations should see that they cannot walk away from the consequences.”

New governments in France and Germany are more pro-American than those of the past that tried to thwart us in Iraq. The Times surely knows of the Chirac administration’s lucrative relationships with Saddam Hussein, and of the German contracts to supply sophisticated tools and expertise that enabled the Baathist nightmare. Tony Blair will enjoy a far more principled and reputable retirement than will Jacques Chirac or Gerhard Schroeder, who did their best to destroy the Atlantic Alliance for cheap partisan advantage at home and global benefit abroad.

Nations like France and Germany won’t “walk away” from Iraq, since they were never there in the first place. They never involve themselves in such dangerous situations—just look at the rules of engagement of French and German troops in Afghanistan. Their foreign policy centers instead on commerce, suitably dressed up with fashionable elite outrage against the United States.

10. “For this effort to have any remote chance, Mr. Bush must drop his resistance to talking with both Iran and Syria. Britain, France, Russia, China and other nations with influence have a responsibility to help. Civil war in Iraq is a threat to everyone, especially if it spills across Iraq’s borders.”

China and Russia, seeing only oil and petrodollars, will take no responsibility to help. Both will welcome a U.S. retreat. Yes, “civil war” will spill over the borders, but not until the U.S. precipitously withdraws. Iran and Syria—serial assassins of democrats from Lebanon to Iraq—are hoping for realization of the Times’s scenario, and would be willing to talk with us only to facilitate our flight, with the expectation that Iraq would become wide open for their ambitions. In their view, a U.S. that fails in Iraq surely cannot thwart an Iranian bomb, the Syrian reabsorption of Lebanese democracy, attacks on Israel, or increased funding and sanctuary for global terrorism.

11. “President Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney have used demagoguery and fear to quell Americans’ demands for an end to this war. They say withdrawing will create bloodshed and chaos and encourage terrorists. Actually, all of that has already happened—the result of this unnecessary invasion and the incompetent management of this war.”

But as the Times itself acknowledges, what has happened in the past only previews what is in store if we precipitously withdraw. And this will prove the case not only in Iraq, but elsewhere in the Persian Gulf, the Middle East, Taiwan, and Korea. Once the U.S. demonstrates that it cannot honor its commitments, those dependent upon it must make the necessary adjustments. Ironically, while the Times urges acceptance of defeat, Sunni tribesmen at last are coming forward to fight terrorists, and regional neighbors are gradually accepting the truth that their opportunistic assistance to jihadists is only threatening their own regimes.

We promised General Petraeus a hearing in September; it would be the height of folly to preempt that agreement by giving in to our summer of panic and despair. Critics called for the resignation of Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, a change in command in Iraq and at Centcom, new strategies, and more troops. But now that we have a new secretary, a new command in Iraq and at Centcom, new strategies, and more troops, suddenly we have a renewed demand for withdrawal before the agreed-upon September accounting—suggesting that the only constant in such harping was the assumption that Iraq was either hopeless or not worth the effort.

The truth is that Iraq has upped the ante in the war against terrorists. Our enemies’ worst nightmare is a constitutional government in the heart of the ancient caliphate, surrounded by consensual rule in Afghanistan, Lebanon, and Turkey; ours is a new terror heaven, but with oil, a strategic location, and the zeal born of a humiliating defeat of the United States on a theater scale. The Islamists believe we can’t win; so does the New York Times. But it falls to the American people to decide the issue.

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About The Author
Victor Davis Hanson is a classicist and historian at the Hoover Institution, Stanford University, and a recipient of the 2007 National Humanities Medal.

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Great column
Not that it will convince any of our leftist regulars, it's still a great column.

One thing to emphasize: inadvertently, the Bush administration placed the leftists in a situation with a 75% win chance for them.

America wins a quick war, and as VDH points out, the leftist establishment can point with pride to their "use of force" vote and the regime change policy established by Clinton.

America loses a quick war, and the leftist establishment can point with pride to their lack of an offical declaration of war.

America loses a long war, and the leftist establishment can point with pride to their lack of an offical declaration of war and their incessant attacks against the war once it was underway, plus their "peace with honor" plans.

The ONLY scenario in which the Left loses is America WINS a LONG war. The public will have little place for the Donkey Party if America triumphs despite the best efforts of the leftists.

Of course, they are now trying to present Secnario 4 at all costs.

Typo
The last sentence should read, "Of course, they are now trying to PREVENT Scenario 4 at all costs."

Tanabear writes;
"The only dangerous Al-Aqaeda operatives were harbored by the US government..."

Does the inanity, not to mention insanity, of a 9/11 Truther become any easier to see?

The ONLY option is military victory in the ME theater. The US forces in Iraq are making progress. Regardless of the best efforts of treasonous democRATS on the Hill (just pick one) to demoralize and assist in the defeat of the brave men and women on the field of battle.

Great VHD Column
I second DocNoleCat that this is a great column by VDH. I enjoyed very much reading VDH's shredding of the idiotic, defeatist editorial by the New York Times calling for withdrawal from Iraq.

VDH has been and is one of the best commentators on the Iraq War and the war with the radical Islamists. I also do recommend his books on military history ("Soul of Battle," "Ripples of Battle" and "Culture and Carnage"), ancient Greek history ("A War Like No Other") and recent events ("A Time of War" and "From Afghanistan To Iraq").

All
...just ignore tanabear and Big Black Dog...they are the token leftists with nothing worthwhile to say except the usual tired, leftist drivel. You cannot argue/debate with a rock so there's no point in trying.

DocNoleCat
Wrote: "...inadvertently, the Bush administration placed the leftists in a situation with a 75% win chance for them."

This is what honorable leaders do -- initiate the policy that has the best chance of success, regardless of the political fallout.

It was the right thing to do. And unless the craven fools of the American Left manage to sabotage the effort (which they very close to accomplishing, and which they accomplished in Vietnam), it will work.

OneWiseGuy...
...is indeed one wise guy!

Excellent column
And for "Big Black Dog": VDH isn't saying NYT shouldn't get to express its editorial opinion about the war. He is saying NYT's opinion is WRONG.

That is, in fact, the American Way of Disputing Opinions.

Inkling
I couldn't agree more.

lilly writes;
"...all the military and foreign policy experts who have stated publicly that no military victory is possible in the Middle East, only diplomatic solutions, and that's iffy."


A) What that statement reads as is; the USA can't win militarily or diplomatically. What other option does that leave? Why the Left's favorite situation for the evil Western world - defeat and deconstruction.

B) Are these the same type of experts that believed the Communists (there's that favorite of the Left again) were too powerful to be defeated?

C) The ONLY ones standing in the way of victory are the elected representatives of the Left, and of course the Islamist animals themselves.

The biggest reasons
Iraq has stalemated are the fact that lefties gave up a long time ago. Our enemies know this. They know how weak-willed 1/2 of our population is. Yes, more Americans have joined the cut and run crowd, but they have been spoon fed this defeatist attitude for many years now. Secondly, we have been way too nice about the way we fight this war. More drastic measures should have been taken. However, each and every measure President Bush has taken to fight this war has been opposed by Democrats. The fact that this whole issue is really about partisan politics is traitorous and despicable. Where were you dissenters when we bombed Yugoslavia into submission? At least Republicans, (who disagreed in that war), did not try to undermine the war effort.

WAIT A MINUTE...

Conservative Republicans aren't calling for the withdrawal of Police and Firefighters from the Democrat ghettos??? These places are just as dangerous as Iraq, aren't they?

When the Democrats stop the Gunfire and bloodshed in their city-states.. then I will accept withdrawal from Iraq.

Until the Liberals can stem the flow of "their minority" bloodshed.. how can we trust their leadership in Iraq?

We can't!

Black Dog,
Nixon didn't start the Vietnam war, he ended it. It began under..... a Democrat!!!!!!!!

Lilly
Thats a good idea. Maybe we should just nuke em all like you said.

Seriously, you offer no solution except for whining and hand wringing.

It is becoming increasingly obvious to our enemies around the world that the United States lacks staying power. This is because the leftists in our society suffer from attention deficit disorder and need constant gratification. On September 12, 2001 the New York Times editors were in favor of going after the terrorists anywhere in the world. By September 13, it was old news.

By contrast, the terrorists bear grudges going back centuries. Their attacks in Spain were motivated just as much by Al Andalus, the muslim emirate in Spain that was eradicated in 1492 as anything recent. That is why you cannot fight a PC war against them. They don't play by the same rules we do, and they know we lack staying power.

Nancy Pelosi and all of her lefty friends are just playing into their hands. I believe Lenin called them "useful idiots."

VDH
Thank God all the NYT editorials are just that,last I looked, the Pres. still is Commander-in Chief, not a Congress that has less favorable poll#s than the Pres.,not the NYT,CBS,NBC,ABC,NPR,et.al.Please, those of you who disagree with this war, and the prosecution of it, just remember this;our enemies care not 1 iota if you opposed or supported this war,they will kill you just as dead. If you think anything else,you are seriously delusional.Listen to what they are saying,if you can get the quarter out of your ears. It is long past time our military to have it's collective hands untied from behind its back,and finish the job. Speaking only for myself, I don't believe the vast majority of Americans want a defeat. Yet, that is all we hear from the Dems,and their willing lap-dog media.

I'm sick of hearing about Bush's legacy
--
Admittedly, a man - or, in Hillary's case, whatever kind of critter the Woman With One Eyebrow might be - who is obsessed with winning popularity contests and wielding life-or-death power over other human beings is some kind of sick, megalomaniacal S.O.B, why should the average American citizen give one faint hint of a goddam about what any particular president's "legacy" might be?

Not even George Washington was an unalloyed prize, though at least his approach to the job was more like that a man being brought to the place of his execution, and not somebody who was just a-quiverin' for the chance to get his hands firmly on the reins of power.

Frankly, I think we could do better picking some poor S.O.B. at random and throwing him into the job with the clear understanding that after the end of his term he gets flung out the back door (Truman-style) with the hope of getting his day job back. Then he can forget about his "legacy" and just concentrate on keeping things from going too much more thoroughly to hell on his watch.

That aside, the editorial staff of *The New York Times* keeps on demonstrating a lack of historical depth and understanding that is either (a) complete disqualification as a source of sound observation and analysis or (b) the sort of "selective" presentation of factual reality that can only serve to characterize them as a buncha lying bahstahds.

I'm inclined to take the position that they're *both*.

Ignorant boobs and lying bahstahds.

Oh, they're slicker'n snot on a doorknob, but they're gen-you-wine boobs. It's in their self-conceived sense of superiority that their bastardliness lies, for bahstahdliness is very much a sin of intention, and their intentions are certainly pure.

Pure bahstahdliness.
--


The TImes wants one thing
Money for its major stockholders, most of whom probably own homes all over the world and have no allegiance whatsoever to America. Billionaires, stirring up trouble.

How do you maximize profits? You make sure there is always controversy. If everybody agreed with Bush and the war, there would be no controversy, but a reduced reason to read their trash. NYT circulation and sales would plummet, even from today's sagging levels. When half the people lean one way, and half the other, that is the model for maximum circulation. Check it out.

Weak Describes robert's 11:30 PM Post
Your 11:30 PM post attacking Profesor Hanson's article was pathetic. The word "weak" describes your 11:30 PM post. You make one poorly conceived swipe at the Hanson article and then demonstrate Bush Derangement Syndrome. There are 11 points in the Hanson article; how about going point by point in the Hanson article and try to say where it is wrong?

07/16/44 Normandy Surge Failed. Withdraw
July 16, 1944


Dear President Roosevelt:

As you know, I voted for War in December 1941, have always supported the troops, and have stood with you over 2 ½ years during which our treasury’s been drained, the environment savaged, about 1/3 million of our fine soldiers killed, and double that amount injured.

But now that the D-Day surge is more than a month old and the Army is still in Normandy due to long standing HEDGEROWS, while progress in the Pacific is at a snails pace and high cost, it is time to publicly admit the inability of our incompetenent military (itemized below) to win without further horrendous losses, and set timetables for withdraw.

Pearl Harbor and Hickam Field Attack:
- At Hickam airplanes were concentrated rather than dispersed.
- Washington’s warnings took hours and were too late.
- Word of sinking a nearby 1 man sub did not reach those in charge.
- Radar detected the attack, but word did not reach those in charge.
The Atlantic:
- Germans sank numerous ships within miles of our coast.
- We’ve lost over 3,000 ships and 25,000 merchant marines.
The Pacific:
- We’ve failed to sink numerous ships due to faulty torpedoes.
- It took 6 months just to take Guadalcanal.
- We lost thousands at Tarawa for virtually nothing.
- We’ve only just taken control of the Philippine Sea.
- The new B-29 is over budget, behind schedule, and a lemon’s lemon.
Africa:
- It started with the French firing on our troops.
- There were a plethora of disasters before we turned it around.
Europe:
- Our Navy shot down numerous paratrooper loaded C-47’s near Sicily.
- Churchill called Italy the “Soft Under Belly of Europe”, but we’ve suffered huge losses and slow progress.
- Air raids on the likes of Ploesti were unmitigated disasters.
- Germany has a new “jet” plane 100 mph faster than our planes.
- Intelligence claims a new “V-2” rocket will attack England soon.
The Normandy Surge:
- Our best general, Patton, was sidelined for SLAPPING A SOLDIER.
- Eisenhower made unauthorized promises to de Gaulle for his support.
- Our bombers and naval guns were of very little help at the beaches, but killed plenty of the French.
- Brave Rangers died taking out log “guns” at Pointe Du Hoc.
- Many troops were unloaded hundreds of yards from planned points.
- Many troops were unloaded too far out to sea and drowned.
- Most of our “floating” tanks sank.
- Many gliders and paratroopers came down far from planned locations.
- We lost over 6,000 dead on D-Day alone.
- It would have been far worse were it not for Rommel being away for his wife’s birthday, and Hitler being asleep.
- Our Sherman tank gets blown to bits by German Tiger I tanks, and an even better Tiger II tank is being introduced.
Boondoggles:
- Extreme money’s being wasted on a farfetched wonder bomb, even though the Germans are years behind us on their version.
- We’re still paying Howard Hughes millions to build an unneeded 300’ wide unflyable airplane to supply Europe.
Civil Rights:
- German infiltrators were tried by the Military and hung in 2 months.
- Tens of thousands of Japanese-Americans are interred in California.
- Press Reports and Letters from fronts are highly censored.

Since we were attacked by JAPAN, political support for this war has steadily declined. If we continue our arrogant, unrealistic course of “unconditional surrender” it is quite reasonable to expect 1 ½ to 2 million additional U. S. casualties. And given the long standing cultures of the Germans and Japanese, we would probably need to occupy both countries for 5 to 10 years afterwards, and they would likely revert to their former ways soon after our departure. The time to stop the carnage is now.


Most Humbly and Sincerely,


Sinator Benedict Judas Fonda Bombast

P. S. Campaign contributions are down. Any help would be appreciated.

Big Black Dog:
Thank you for the eloquence with which you demonstrate again your debating, linguistic and historic knowledge. One could see from afar, looking at the the mere symmetry of your thoughts, that you are a well rounded, well nourished and well educated individual. Few on this or any other forum can fail to be impressed by the bold brutal invective, dry to a crisp sense of humor and down-south surrealism. You are indeed a perfectly disgusting, vomit-inducing imbecile.

Thank you
for a clear, insightful analysis of what's going on in Iraq and what would happen there and all over the Middle East if we bug out prematurely. Also for the reminder of who was supportive of this intervention at the start, and why, despite many people's attempts to rewrite (very recent) history.

NYT - A Political Rag

The nyt article "The Road Home" is a political article, probably written to support 2008 Liberal candidates or against the current Administration. Lets look at the WOT.

For those who don't understand the moral purpose behind the WOT consider a world with an unrestrained; 1 Taliban in Afghanistan, 2 Radical Islam in Northern Pakistan, 3 Al Qeda propagation in Iraq, and 4 meddling by Iran and Syria in Lebanon with Hezbollah and Hammas or similar organizations causing pain in Israel and other parts of the Middle East. H"ll even Egypt and Saudi Arabia are under attack by Sheite and Whabbahi radical factions and cells in the Far East feed on news about the sickness. Its hard to believe there are any Americans or Europeans who can't see the threat to Western Civilization from radical Islam. Immediate defeat, no. Continual intimidation, kidnapping, killing, bombing, YES!

Winning the war will not look like any other victory and may be as simple as making it painful for Madrasses to teach children the philosophy of suicide bombing until it is significantly diminished while our forces continue to battle those already indoctrinated with this sickness past the point of recovery. The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, where I live, has taken action against radical Imams, and the same trend is moving forward in Pakistan and I believe in Indonesia. Moderate Muslim leaders do not want radical islam to win this war but they are intimidated, afraid to take to the streets and unsure of American resolve. They are also in unchartered waters, having to reinterpret past teachings. This old Kansas Farmer even keeps a low profile; here in the Middle East you never know who is willing to kill for some obscure cause.

Now Tribesmen in Iraq want no more of the Taliban style intimidation Al Qeda used to control the Al Anbar province and have shown the courage to come forward. This must continue. Moderate Muslims must receive protection and security until they are strong enough to protect themselves. Consider the courage it takes for a young male Iraqi well known in his community and considering joining the Iraq army. Americans joining the military don't have to face getting killed until they are trained and enter battle under seasoned leadership. A young Iraqi has to place his entire family at risk to join his army, and yet they come in increasing numbers. Americans are the best military in the world, morally, technically, courageously, but the young Iraqi joining his army has to muster a different level of courage.

The new government formed in Iraq will probably not be liked or understood by most Americans, but the fundamental theory of freedom from 1 death, 2 kidnapping, 3 torture, and 4 intimidation is the universal vision the US Military can carry to Iraq. If the US military is successful, Iraq citizens may get a glimpse of the pursuit of happiness! The other tribal and oil issues cited by liberals and usually the MSM headlines are of secondary importance.

The US must continue and win the WOT, (stop teaching children the sick philosophy of suicide bombing and other terror measures, and contain those children, many now adults and already lost). Please America, don't leave Iraq and the other battlefronts in the war on terror until this job is finished. America must defeat the ideology of radical islam, now with the gains achieved, or later against a larger foe reinforced by any retreat.

IVES the Kansas Farm Boy in Saudi Arabia

black dog and other leftists
The liberal media can take the blame (at least indirectly), for some of the deaths and injuries
to our service men/women by giving them a stage.

Their desire to bring down the President is
at the root of their actions. And that is unforgivable in my thinking

The destruction of this country will be on their
& your hands.

HalO
The New York Times War College, I presume?

Muslims win through procreation.
End of story.
Unless you all get off the computer and procreate.

A letter to a leftist
DarkMessiah blathers: "But we ain't that butt-whipped yet?
Mr. Hanson ignores that fact that the war in unwinnable--like lost, dudes. I mean, sports fans, that we attacked a little country that did not want a war with us and got ourselves a well deserved butt-whipping.

Here's how we "cut and run." Make a deal with parties that are killing us--talk to all. Secure our lines of retreat as the Times suggests. Find sanctuaries for our Quislings. Grab our gear or give it to rag-heads or let it burn in the desert, and hit the one road out of there before that Green Zone becomes an $800 billion 21st century Alamo with some neo-con Davy Crockett out of ammo and swinging his M 16 like Old"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Yes, I agree. We should pull out all of our troops, not just from Iraq, but from all around the world. But not for the same reasons that you and your ilk want to. I say we bring all of our troops home so that they can gather all you liberal/commie anti-American traitors(am I being redundant?) and place you in internment camps and/or mental institutions where you pukes belong, until we can proccess your deportation papers. Then we can deport you and all the cancerous cells like youself who are destroying this country from within to North Korea or Cuba, where no doubt you people would feel right at home with your communist buddies. After that we can truly proceed in this war on terror and take on the Islamic terrorists who pose not only a threat to the U.S.; but also the entire Western civilization.

You see, I have nothing against your being anti-war. However, judging from the post that your slimy fingers produced, it's obvious that you are thrilled at the thought of the U.S. being defeated and humiliated in Iraq. And it's that kind of rhetoric from leftists like you that is emboldening the enemy and demoralizing our troops. You sir, are a disgrace to America; and a disgrace to the human race.

Re Big Black Dog
I have read Big Black Dog's 1:19 Saturday AM attempt at resonding to Professor Hanson's article. I see that Big Black Dog thinks that Professor Hanson, one of the top schoplars in ancient Greek history and one of the top military historians today is a "moron" and an "idiot." I see that Big Black Dog objects to historical experience being used to illustrate points. I see that Big Black Dog objects to Professor Hanson's warnings as mere speculation. And I see a lot of moonbat foolsihness on Big Black Dog's part.

Asking, as I did, for a point by point refutation was a way of forcing the resident leftists to reveal the folly of their position. They are the "idiots" and "morons."

The first "point" of Big Black Dog illustrates how off the wall they are. There is no defeat in withdrawal, says Big Black Dog, because there is no enemy in Iraq. So if we leave, no one is chasing us out. Please, this is insanely ridiculous and reflects an ignorance of the nature of the warare in Iraq. We are fighting al Qaeda and other radical Islamists in Iraq. They may be illegal combatants under the Geneva Convention because they don't wear uniforms, but they are an organized military force and they are using bombings and IEDs to try to forceout of Iraq. Certainly, if we were to withdraw, the radical Islamists would be proclaiming defeat of America and would be flooding the net with videos celebrating their victory. What is more, the object of forcing us to withdraw is to be in a posiiton to take over in Iraq and do what they say they will -- set up the caliphate in Baghdad and use Iraq as a client state from which to launch attacks like they did when the Taliban controlled Afghanistan at the time of 9/11.

Predict the Outcome of the Iraq War
The very best that can result from invading Iraq (it was done without provocation) is a very unstable middle-East controlled by muslims who want to kill us. If we were to ever reach the point of leaving soldiers there for "peace keeping" they would be picked off one by one. So how to reconcile this kind of situation with one that tells Iraq that we are leaving in 9 months? What is the difference? Our soldiers do not get killed and the muslims keep killing each other while the oil still flows but at four or five dollars a barrel for a time. I am not a cut-and-run person but I think I can see the outcome and it is far different than that of Jorge Bush. Will the killings by muslims stop within the next year or two? No! How about 5 years? No! They have been killing infidels for thousands of years haven't they? The final outcome may have been different if Jorge had run an intelligent war but HE and his associates approached it empty headed (an oxymoron).

Best laugh I have had
"Democracy CAN'T WORK in Iraq because the factions are so polarized."

I admit, I don't know who wrote it. I was laughing to hard to keep the place and can't find it now. Besides, what's the point?

The point is this: According to most polls here in America, 45% are Republican, 45% Democrat, with the other 10% Other. WE ARE POLARIZED. But, somehow in our ignorance, we ignore that reality and it WORKS.

Yes, we accuse each other of every conceivable crime and misdemenor, but USUALLY we work together to acheive what? DEMOCRACY! A REPUBLIC!

But we shouldn't wish this mess on those Iraqis (Sunni and Shai) or Kurds. NO! Absolutely not.

RE: New York Times long & inglorious...
record of SEDITION & SLEAZE...

Can you barking moonbat libtards say, "Walter Duranty"?

I know you all can... It can roll off your collective crap encrusted lips and right onto a search engine for your education and enlightenment...

Then again you barking moonbat libtards probably think Krugman is a smart and savvy economist too...

stop moving the goal posts
"The Times wonders what Bush’s cause was. Easy to explain, if not easy to achieve: to help foster a constitutional government in the place of a genocidal regime"

No, that was NOT his original cause. This is just one more example of his having "moved the goal posts" when the earlier goals proved unattainable.

For the ORIGINAL cause, you can go to the Project for a New American Century (PNAC), the neoconservative group that included most of the Bushies as well as academicians. Prior even to 9-11, they had stated that America must topple Saddam to prove to the whole world that America is "indomitable," a notion that had emerged from America's victory in World War II but was severely shaken by Vietnam.

http://www.newamericancentury.org/iraq-20010514.htm

The neoconservative idea that America had to re-establish its "hayba," or awesomeness, in the eyes of the Arab world was further discussed here:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3750402/

dark messiah - TeeHall
Dark messiah , dude it kind of early to be hitting the bong!
Teehall says The very best that can result from invading Iraq (it was done without provocation) is a very unstable middle-East controlled by muslims who want to kill us. As opposed to the old middle east that was unstable and controlled by muslims that want to kill us?

containment
Psalm23 writes: "A) What that statement reads as is; the USA can't win militarily or diplomatically. What other option does that leave?"

It leaves containment as an option. The same option that was used successfully against the USSR for 40 years of the Cold War, even though they were a FAR more powerful enemy than any Muslim regime is now.

Containment requires the West to a) do a better job controlling immigration, b) stop using oil from that part of the world, and c) stop pretending that Islamist nations like Saudi Arabia are our friends and allies. They're not.

The problem the West is having is that it insists on having its cake and eating it too: We want to depend on a steady supply of Middle East oil and we want to import as many immigrants from there as are needed to prop up our mixed economies. If we had acted that way with the Communist bloc during the Cold War--become economically dependent on them--we would have lost the Cold War too.

conservatives against the war
knight_of_baawa writes: "Anyone who advocates the withdrawl of troops from Iraq is a leftist, right?"

Well, Robert Spencer and Hugh Fitzgerland of Jihad Watch say we should disengage from Iraq. And Jihad Watch is one of the most vigorous analysts of the worldwide Islamist jihad out there.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/

His reason is not one a Leftist would like: He maintains it is impossible to civilize an Arab Muslim people to Western style democracy and we shouldn't even try. al-Qaeda is able to fish in troubled waters because Iraq is a failed state. And the only states that can govern Arab Muslims successfully are those that use ruthless force because that's all they understand.

A benevolent despotism along the style of Ataturk might have succeeded eventually in Iraq. But not a Western-style constitutional republic with guaranteed rights. The disconnect with fundamentalist Islam and the Islamic law of sharia is just too great.

Angelo Codevilla, who is quite right-wing, has made the same point. Iraq needs a dictatorial but non-sadistic strongman to run the place, not a parliament with the kind of haggling and dickering that only works after citizens understand that violence is counterproductive.

the worst case scenario
Big Black Dog writes: "Only a coward and a yellow-bellied wimp would be worried that the overwhelming powerful nations - the USA, Russia and the rest of Europe, are somehow under a threat of - according to you, extermination, from the Islamists"

I agree that to claim that we're going to be exterminated is exaggerated.

But major terrorist attacks on U.S. soil will change American life forever--into something neither you or I want.

9-11 already had a major effect--massive hassles at airports, guards at schools and other private buildings, new skyscrapers being built like armored bunkers and fortresses. (The new Freedom Tower to replace the World Trade Center has an ugly 5-story base with two-foot-thick reinforced concrete walls and no windows whatsoever--guess why.)

A "suitcase nuke" that takes out just one American city won't destroy America. But it will turn America into an armed camp from then on, guaranteed.

In that sense, our civilization WILL be threatened--our basic assumptions of tolerance, openness, civil liberties, confidence in our future will be gone forever if that nuke goes off.

And that means we must do everything possible to prevent that eventuality--whatever it takes.

Face it, the surge worked
It looks like the surge has worked.

I think everybody agrees that the purpose of the surge is to buy time. We are trying to provide sufficient security for the Iraqi people to be able to solve their own internal problems. Our troops are fighting and dying every day so that the Iraqis can reach political solutions.

Everyone also recognizes that the next weeks and months are crucial. Most in Congress, including many of the remaining GOP supporters of Bush, say that we need to show substantial progress by September. But they are being too shy about touting the progress that has already been made. Fact is, the surge has already worked.

After all their hard work solving these political problems and reaching accommodations to end the violence, the Iraqi Parliament now confirms they feel safe and secure enough to schedule a month-long vacation in August. Yes sir, when the going gets tough, the tough head for the beaches.

I think we should all be proud that these courageous legislators we are supporting have not been intimidated by a suicide bomber blowing himself up in the Parliament a few weeks ago. They are not deterred for a moment by the bodies of dead Americans and Iraqis on the streets. Their bravery in resolutely packing their bags for a 30-day holiday firmly demonstrates they are not willing to allow carnage to interfere with their R & R.

The Democrats are obviously way off base on this. This is not the time to put pressure on the Iraqi government by threatening to withdraw troops or face consequences for their failure to resolve their problems. Doesn’t anyone realize how hot it gets in Baghdad in the summertime? Doesn’t anyone realize that the parliament isn’t even air conditioned when insurgents keep blowing up power stations, shelling the Green Zone and knocking the electrical grid offline? Have these courageous legislators not suffered enough?

I cannot believe that the Democrats and MSM are so invested in the surge’s failure that they won’t even report this encouraging news.

After all, this is about the Iraqi people and not us. It’s their country we’re trying to save for them. But thankfully they are responding like the early American patriots.

I remember our history. July 1, 1776. As the Continental Congress met in Philadelphia, the country was in dire peril. Washington had marched his army to New York, where he awaited an expected onslaught from Gen. Howe, the British fleet and the Hessian mercenaries. He had spent weeks fortifying the city and the outcome was clearly in doubt.

As Washington braced for the invasion, delegates to the Continental Congress suffered from the heat and humidity, not to mention the pressure of possible charges of treason as they considered a course of independence. And just like the Iraqi Parliament, whose new-born democracy faces similar peril, they made the brave decision … to go on vacation for a few weeks. This can all wait until fall.

Who can forget the defiant words of Patrick Henry, “Give me fruity drinks at poolside or give me death.”

Or the immortal words of Thomas Jefferson, who unforgettably wrote that all men “are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights, among them life, liberty and a four-week vacation while our cities burn around us.”

Or Benjamin Franklin, who told the delegates, “We can all hang out together at the beach or we will surely hang separately.”

Of course, this indomitable American spirit has continued through the ages. Who can forget John F. Kennedy’s speech at his first inaugural, “Ask not what your country can do for you, ask how long you can leave the country.”

Yes, the Iraqis certainly are showing their mettle and why they deserve our support. Their sense of urgency is compelling and truly worthy our sacrifices.

Imagine the pride of an American Army chaplain going to comfort a grieving American mother who has lost her son or daughter. “Ma’am, your loss is not in vain. Your son made the supreme sacrifice so the Iraqi government can vacation with honor.”

How can Democrats DARE to put pressure on these freedom-loving Iraqi politicians? Have we lost the spirit that made America great?

this will all be moot after the election
nutinfinr writes: "What happens when we leave Iraq prematurely, that is until the newly formed government can adequately govern and the country is reasonably stable? Try this on for size..."

Here's the thing:
Petraeus and his generals have said publicly that it will take YEARS to reach the goal of a stable country with a stable government. That's consistent with past experience that it takes between 5 and 10 years to defeat an insurgency militarily. And given the nature of Iraq, never having had constitutional government to begin with, it's liable to be one of the longer counter-insurgency wars.

Politically, you know that's impossible.

On Election Day, November 2008, Americans are going to vote to end our military involvement in Iraq immediately, just as Hillary has now proposed doing. And that will be the end of that. With the current public mood, no pro-war candidate is going to be elected President. Period.

So, you have two choices: Either President Bush lowers his expectations and cuts the best political deal he can to get us out of there quickly, or President Hillary will do it for him.

But the neo-conservative dream of victory in Iraq will be over by 2009, one way or the other.

Our Muslim Enemy
A truly excellent article.

The 3000 American victims lost in but an hours time on 9/11 was not in vain. We are becoming aware as a nation that every last Muslim who chooses to remain in the Murderous Cult of Islam is the face of the enemy and can never be trusted.

All mosques must be shut, all Islamic administration closed, and Islam declared a terrorist organization and banished from America.

Islam is and always was spread by the sword. Ignore it at the expense of your head. They are barbarians as they have exited from the Trojan Horse of Immigration and are living even next door. These people must abandon this Murderous Cult or be exiled one by one from our Country.

All the liberties(freedom of speech to criticize their murders all over the world, freedom of movement in airports, building and memorials, and stadiums, we have lost already are due to Muslims.

Wake up people we are losing big time to the Muslims.

More evidence it's time to go
Prime Minister al-Maliki says the Iraqi security forces can handle things on their own and that the US is free to leave "any time they want."

One of his top aides says they US is committing human rights abuses, embarrassing the al-Maliki government (as if they needed our help with that) and cooperating with 'gangs of killers.'

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/14/AR2007071400463.html/?hpid=topnews

The Iraqi police, long rumored to be infested with milita members, actually engaged US forces in a prolonged gun battle yesterday. Joint Chiefs Chairman Gen. Peter Pace says we have found up to 25% of some Iraqi are actually infiltrators.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/14/world/middleeast/14iraq.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

Oh, I know, this is just liberal media bias. Newspapers just make this stuff up so they can make President Bush look bad (as if he needed their help with that) and because they want America to lose.

It's like the night the Titanic sank. All the press could focus on was the ship going down, not a single story about the positive developments like how well the band played that night or how fashionable the people looked getting into the lifeboats in their evening dress. Just like the MSM to only focus on the negative.



Lt. Corporal
There are a lot of vocal posters here, but they don't represent all of us. A whole lot of us continue to support the president, General Petraeus, and the troops in Iraq. I've posted elsewhere my reasons for that, and won't go further into it here. But plenty of us -- vets like me, and others who "also served" -- believe in your task, in America's freedom and security, in God's provision -- and in YOU.

Tanabear and Big Black Dog and Lilly
Just ignore the first two. Don't worry about their education; worry about those who are honestly trying to understand.

As regards Lilly: We have a 13 trillion dollar GDP and about 5 to 7 trillion increase in wealth each year after paying for depreciation. We can lose New Orleans and register barely a blip to the stock markets or the economy. Our problem is the waste generated by Leftist ideas such as "diversity training" after we make our money. Iraq is not a waste, and we can count the war as won if we can isolate Al Qaeda and keep them from getting a state or state sponsor for their vision of world-wide Jihad to construct a caliphate. The other part of the war was to isolate and contain Iran, which has had limited, but some success no matter what happens now. So overall the war has already paid "geo-political dividends" to the USA and the Long War. You guys are arguing over how to interpret the past. You say we are worse off and I would argue that that interpretation is just plainly not true.

It Is Time To Go
I've been a Republican all my 34 voting years, and I've seen firsthand the changes that the war mongers have brought to us, all in the name of spreading "democracy." Taking out dictators and installing puppet ogvernments that can't stand without our ever-present troops looking over their shoulders is not what our forefathers intended us to do, and you cannot convince me "things are different now." Things are different now because we are different now, and it's not a good change.

It's time to bring our troops home, and let them defend our borders, and only our borders.

Lt. Corporal
I would echo dyerje comments, with the proviso that I cannot support the ongoing ineptitude of our civilian leadership. Our military's performance in this conflict has been magnificent and truly worthy of our respect and support.

Given the strategic blindness of our policymakers when we began this conflict, their our completely unrealistic view of the post-war situations and their failure to plan for anything but best-case scenarios, the epic bumbling of the civilian CRP, their refusal for domestic political reasons to admit that things were not going as hoped and change course when it might have mattered, the ever-changing missions and changes in military leadership and their failure to support our troops with the kinf of "soft power" that might have helped them succeed, it is the civilians who have botched this from the start.

Given the political realities in Iraq, maybe we never had a chance to succeed with the grand vision of a liberal democracy there. Perhaps it was a bridge too far. It now appears the tribal and sectarian rivalries within Iraq run too deep, that the Iraqi people are too invested in their divisions to even desire unity. We certainly didn't help matters by failing to learn the lessons of those powers before us who had tried to remake the Middle East, or even the lessons we learned in World War II.

The military's job is to win wars and our military did that. The main frustration of all our military leaders who have broken with our policies in Iraq is that the military cannot make the peace. It is the job of civilians to do that and that is where the failure in Iraq must be placed.

Big Black Dog writes:
Addressing "Lt. Corporal":

"Actually, sir, you have it backwards - seeing that you work for us - liberal and conservative. When we win the next election, it will be YOU who are leaving (Iraq). So kill as many people as you can - get your blood lust out, son, because you're coming home soon..."

BBD, I think I speak for a number of TH posters and other patriots when I tell you quite clearly that, after the words you have written to Lt. Corporal, should I ever meet you on the street, you'll pray to God that some brave serviceman observes the beating you are getting and comes to your aid... not that you will deserve it.

I have been a TH'er for some time now, have read all kinds of stupid and foolish comments (probably have written a few myself), but your posts to Lt. Corporal are without doubt the most vile, arrogant and hateful comments I have ever had the misfortune of reading here.

You should get on your knees and beg forgiveness from God. Of course, you probably don't believe in a power greater than yourself.

Grand Chien Noir
... who richly merits the Frenchification of his TH-handle, has raised a point worth addressing: the idea that, since we are not fighting the official army of an organized state, nothing about traditional conflict applies.

He suggests that because there is no organized, state-based "army" opposing us in Iraq, there can be no defeat, no victory, and no retreat.

An extension of that line of argument is the common insistence that, since we weren't attacked on 9/11 by another sovereign nation, there is no war. After all, "Al Qaeda," per se, is not even eligible to violate the United Nations Charter regarding attacks on member states. No party to the League of Nations, the Treaty of Versailles, or the Congress of Vienna would recognize Al Qaeda's attack as a casus belli.

A good starting point for considering this argument, however, is the following reality: ONLY an organization like Al Qaeda could have brought off the 9/11 attacks. The armed forces of another nation could not have done it. No nation's air force could have attacked the World Trade Center: we would have seen a military attack force coming, via our air defense network, well outside even our unalerted reaction window.

No nation could have invaded with ground forces to attack Manhattan or the Pentagon. Neither airborne insertion nor amphibious landing would have been remotely possible. Even an attempted special forces attack would have alerted Americans early enough in the actual attack that success on the level of the 9/11 catastrophes would most likely have been interdicted.

The only way a sovereign nation could have brought off the 9/11 attacks with the success realized by Al Qaeda would have been using Al Qaeda-like terrorists to execute it in exactly the same way: by nominal civilians, under the intelligence radar, exploiting a vulnerability of our open society.

Perhaps Grand Chien Noir feels that the US should not make any attempt at all to fight back against terrorists. That's its own argument -- and while uninteresting, still very French.

He probably DOES believe that since no nation's armed forces attacked us on 9/11, there can be no justification for counterattacking by striking at another nation -- even at two nations that, under their previous leaders, trained, supplied, and harbored Sunni wahhabist terrorists.

But consider these additional facts. Since Islamic terrorists are NOT the armed forces of sovereign nations, and as Grand Chien Noir points out, they do NOT have the command and control, organization, or logistical footprint of official armies, the effectiveness of intelligence against them is much less reliable.

We have had good alertment on a number of occasions in the last decade that Al Qaeda was "planning something." Intelligence is well capable of telling us that, as it did in the months before 9/11. The problem is that, since Al Qaeda doesn't have the persistent, geophysically constrained, command/control- recognizable patterns of a nation's army, intelligence has far less -- close to zero -- ability to tell us WHERE and WHEN.

We've had some great success with terrorism intelligence in the last six years, but we still can't get ahead of the terrorists' operational planning in the reliable way we can with a national military force. We will always have to rush to intercept plots at the last minute, and have no idea if we've intercepted them all. WE can't PLAN to meet the enemy; we can only conduct 360-degree surveillance, 24/365, and hope to turn more factors on the margin to our advantage.

Intelligence will never protect us against all further major attacks by terrorists -- BECAUSE terrorists aren't the organized armed forces of sovereign nations.

Since intelligence won't, what will? One thing to think about is something that those who are distressed at the seeming "asymmetry" of our present strategy probably haven't considered. That is, that "symmetry" in fighting Islamic terrorism would entail arming our own citizens to wander abroad looking for terrorists to blow up, wherever we might think we found them, regardless of collateral damage to the innocent.

It is not such a bad thing that we consider ourselves constrained to act as a nation, with deliberation, lawfully constituted force, and restraint. The question is how to bring that attitude of force to bear on a transnational target. Striking at the state sponsors of transnational Islamic terrorism fits the toolbox of a nation lawfully constrained by compunction, while at the same time giving us a more effective approach than merely hoping our intelligence will catch the terrorists before they arm the next fuse, or hijack the next airliner.

Here's the big news, Grand Chien Noir: the idea that "war" has only developed when we are attacked by another sovereign nation is a Maginot Line of the imagination -- and the terrorists, like Hitler's Panzer divisions, have already zigged around it, and are plunging through the Ardennes.

The Maginot Line of "Congress of Vienna/Article 51 of the UN Charter Sovereignty" doesn't work on terrorists; it is no defense against them. The more we constrain ourselves not to respond outside of that paradigm, the greater advantage the terrorists will have.

So far George W. Bush has had the clarity of vision to see that reality. We are not Vichy France -- yet. But that possibility remains as long as so many Americans think that our sovereignty is, in and of itself, a defense against Al Qaeda. It is not. Sunni wahhabists have to be deprived of their resources, cornered in geographic locations, and publicly administered humiliating defeats. Only in such a way will America RETAIN her sovereignty, through a unified confidence in her security -- and thus retain her liberty.

VDH
Big Black Dog: When are you going to thank people like Lt.Corporal,who will Actually go into battle to protect even Your right to make a fool of yourself. If some one attacks your family while you are out on a beautiful NYC day,are you willing to defend them as well? Reading what you have to say about those who don the uniform makes me wonder.

A Question
Why is black Dog allowed to post his hate?

Black Dog Doofus
Yes you deserve it.

I notice
that not one liberal on this board has been able to refute even one thing Hansen has written.

You guys give new meaning to stuck on stupid.

Lt. Corporal
You are wasting your breath with him. Your assuming that he has any morals to start with. He doesn't. He isn't playing ball on the same field. He calls himself Black Dog, but in reality it is an insult to dogs because they are smarter.

tanabear
I suggest you do not quote Orwell because Orwell himself would flagellate you. You obviously do not understand Orwell. If you believe the 9/11 conspiracy cr@p then that tells me all I need to know about your IQ.

Lt. Corporal
You pretty much said it all and did a good job of it.

The real threat...
isn't 'losing' this war. Actually, this war has already been won. The real objective from the very beginning was to depose Saddam Hussein for valid reasons (and I don't really care if some of the lunatics cannot understand the validities or not-it is a waste of time to explain logically why we rightfully went after Saddam-lefty lunatics don't want to hear truth). Saddam swung-he is no more. Mission accomplished! But the real threat doesn't come from the ME. The real threat comes from within our own. The 'appeasers', anti-war maggots that deliberately attempt to misdirect our focus away from the real threat of terrorism in order to gain political clout. This divisive agenda of the Democrats have lead many to abandon a just and right war, leaving us and our friends/allies (true allies-not the 'fair weathered friends') at the mercy of terrorists. These unpatriotic and anti-American types are the worst enemy we have. They are traitors in the highest. They will destroy this great nation for power. In so doing, they are as guilty of murder as al qaeda itself. NYT is a prime example of this treason. But, since this nation was built on freedom, we have to let NYT spew its stupid 'opinion' all they want. That surely doesn't mean we have to accept that opinion. We are still free to form our own opinion. That's what scares the left so bad that they have to lash out at true patriots still supporting this righteous war. Well, I couldn't give a rat's you-know-what what the lefty lunatic, anti-war, anti-American crowd thinks. Imho, they are worthless wastes of human flesh.

Of course, that's just my opinion. Now, I'm wondering...how many lefty idiots will scream I don't have the right to voice my opinion.............

Lt. Corporal
Thankyou! You are an invaluable American and because of people like you my optimism becomes renewed.

VDH
Lt.Corporal,I would like to thank you so very much for the sacrifices you,and the others who have VOLUNTEERED to join in the fight have made on our behalf. It is a shame that so-called intelligent ones,such as BBD cannot, or worse yet,do not want to see the truth,that is this enemy cares not a whit if you are for or against this war. They will kill him and his family just as dead as the rest of what they view as infidels. In fact, I believe they would kill a coward like him quicker. It is such a shame you have to fight the real war there, and the one here with those who just don't get it.

Hey Robert
How stupid can you be. Iraq doesn't compare with Germany because we had troops in Germany for a far longer time?

Do you think that when the US occupation forces arrived in Japan and Germany that they were greeted with open arms? A lot of AMerican soldiers died in those countries after the surrenders were signed. But we prevailed, and now those countries are two of our staunchest allies in the world. THey are healthy, peaceful democracies. They are not spawning terrorists out to kill innocent Americans.

Get your head out of your butt. Several years down the road, Iraq could be a beacon of peace for all of the Middle East. There are times when leaders have to make tough decisions. For sixty years, leaders skirted the real issues in the middle east, each one announcing ground-breaking peace agreements, then delayed the inevitable by buying peace through the likes of Arafat. Do you have any idea what that jackass was about?

Iran, the biggest purveyor of terrorism in the world through Hamas, Hezbollah and Al Qaeda, wants nuclear weapons and control of all of the oil in the Middle East. WIthout us in the area, posing a formidable obstacle, they may well get them. What is it about that that you don't understand?

You Dems and your moral superiority. The pen is mightier than the sword. Tell that to all those people suffering under Aquavelvajad and his minions. The meek shall inherit the earth. Wake up! Time to make tough decisions.

Lt. Corporal
Thank you for your service and for putting your life on the line so that I can sleep well at nights and enjoy my freedom. Some of the drivel emanating from the mouths of some of these left wing loonies would be humorous if what we are engaged in was something to be laughed at. What these "useful idiots" don't seem to grasp, or want to grasp,is that we are in a war for the survival of western civilization. I don't have to remind you of that. Again thank you for your sacrifices and may God protect you and the men and women serving with you.
An ole Korean War vet

All Our News Fits the Mold!
This was an excellent and informative essay, and it should be required reading for all those mush-heads who claim to know all the solutions, answers, and bogeymen of the World. Why? Because the NY Times is the top lefty ally in newsprint, and this essay proves it. Normally, any story which can be slanted left, is---in the NY Times. Even coverage of an 'illegal' neighborhood lemonade stand would be tilted so far left, the owner's tricycle would tip over.

Most lefty posters---Lilly and Black Dog leap to mind first---show the usual, disturbing modus operandi of ignoring facts, history, logic, common sense, and responsibility in their thinking and comments. And it is this reaction to a factual and descriptive essay that shows the discerning public what Liberalism really is and why it's so dangerous. Liberals are in a La-La Land transcending any manifestation of reality, and they and their cohorts in the Press and politicians on and from the left Coast are set in place and pursuing a course of perdition within American Society.

In a normal response to this post, I'm sure these Liberals will: ask for proof; insult the messenger; spout more inanity---or just ignore it. Since this is a day after the posting of the essay, the latter may be the result. But please remember: This is opinion and not an essay with citations. And it was directed toward the intellectual level of intelligent Liberals as opposed to the riff-raff who so often populate these threads.

I like the comments of readyk. They're rational, interesting, and quite creative. I agree that all our Wars, from the Revolution to Korea, would have been soundly lost if the Liberals had their way. At least the Liberals might have killed themselves off, so the race to defeatism might have been sidetracked at some point.

Will this situation with the damaging left ever change as time goes by? Who knows? Even Louie reformed somewhat before sloshing through the wet tarmac.

Hitler had plans for us
I suspect that most liberals think that we could have stayed out of WWII and been just fine. If so, they have little knowledge of history.

Remember, Hitler was after the Atom Bomb too, but we slowed his progress on that front. Had he taken out England before we entered the war, he would have eventually owned all of Europe, and there would be no invasion point for us. He also had detailed plans for an invasion of the US, coming up through the Gulf of Mexico, as I recall.

Read The Winds of War. Had we lost at Midway, we well might have lost our fight against the Japanese. THe leaders who made the critical decisions in WWII did so with the best intelligence and long range planners in the world - because they knew that our future depended on it. They weren't willing to take the chance "that things would be okay, anyway." They did it with a heavy heart, because they knew many thousands of Americans would die, some needlessly. They didn't launch into the war on a lark, and neither did Bush. But in their day, the nation came together, and politicians put their desire for power aside. The results were spectacular.

I thought you were
an honest player, SteveL, when you asked on another thread just yesterday:

"What could you possibly tell the American people at this juncture to get them to change their mind and support the war?"

I gave you an answer -- thinking you were open to persuasion, but perhaps you didn't revisit Limbaugh's article to see it.

Doesn't matter now.

Because, what Mr. Hanson has written here far surpasses my halting attempt to provide the scenario of a likely outcome if we fail in Iraq. He answers every treasonous statement the NYT makes -- and Hanson wins the argument!!
And still you can argue against him.

I see what you've written in response to this thread, SteveL, and it makes me gag.

You weren't dealing honestly with us yesterday, you didn't really want to listen to my viewpoint, or to Mr. Hanson's, the Lt. Corporal, or dyerje's today.

You just want to sew doubt among the faithful.

Now I know who you are. I know your kind.

Just know this, NOTHING you say will make me less supportive of our troops and the Pres's decision to stay the course until al-Qaeda is eliminated from Iraq and the rule of law is applied equally to all citizens in Iraq.

If I were you, I'd quit reading the MSM, it's poisoning your judgment.

I suggest you get your hands on a copy of an address made yesterday by Lt. Gen. John Sattler (the commander who secured Fallujah, a city still at peace), and Joint Chiefs of Staff Strategic Plans and Policy Director.

He spoke to the Defense Forum Foundation (defenseforum.org).

I trust him and his opinions, like I do Mr. Hanson's. Yours, SteveL, I do not -- especially when you can discount so casually everything Mr. Hanson said.



I have another assignment
for you, SteveL,

wander on over to Lorie Byrd's column, and scroll down to read IVES's 4:42 pm post of today.

It's just another viewpoint counter to that of the MSM that might assist in helping you make better informed judgments about the Iraq war.

Black dog,
this will make you angry but I really don't care. You are an outright liar. You do NOT support our troops and you are NOT grateful for their sacrifices. It IS the left that has exploited our troops over and over again for political gain. That started with the abhorrent behavior all you 'peaceniks' showed our guys when they were forced to run home from Vietnam because your type is too queasy to do the right thing. You and your ilk are cowards. Pure and simple. Your divisiveness is what will tear this nation apart but I guess that doesn't bother you as long as your Demo-nic-crat party is in power. You have no interest in what is in the best interest of this nation. All you are interested in is what you can get for yourself.

How can Victor...
Davis Hanson not wither in the face of buzz words and opinnion.

"disaster, sufficient cause, global opposition, lost, wrong, diversion, burden, destabalizing"

His facts are a weak shield against the NYT and the leftist propaganda machine. If he would do as I do and take a black pen and mark out opinion, buzz words and "facts" that are contrary to well, reality, he would see that the left has nothing to say.

Someone please tell me if the shortest route to Terhan is from the Kurdish north. I don't have a map and I don't know if the Iranians would consider a mass troop movement north as a first step to invasion. I am not an equal to the military historians and tactitions at the NYTs, and am in need of help.

Primus responds to Big Black Dog
Re: BBD's post at 12:55PM, to wit I quote him:

"Sure, I deserve to be beaten for expressing ideas - even offensive ones - don't I? You should burn books, too - they express ideas and stuff. While you're at it, why not burn people, too - saves time on getting rid of all those beaten bodies..."

Primus: Sorry, Big Black Dog. I'm afraid your rant about burning books and people is projection on your part. Those are the acts of socialists and communists... political systems and ideals you and your left-wing brothers tend to support, not conservatives.

No... I totally support your right to express your ideas. You have a constitutional guarantee to freedom of expression. But you confuse a freedom of speech with a right to offend others with impunity. It just doesn't work like that, young man. I could stand on a street corner next to you and your wife and insult her with the most derogatory of language and names, but not without consequences.

And no... I won't flag your posts offensive. On the contrary, the posters here accord you expressive freedoms that we would not likely be allowed on left-wing sites such as DailyKos, HuffPo and moveon.org. Of course, you clearly won't see the hypocrisies of your fellow liberals.

Finally... I hope your posts stay on this thread. Your opinions do far more for the cause of conservatism and patriotism as they represent such a shining example of how liberalism becomes a mental disorder if allowed to ferment long enough.

You really aren't very bright, are you?

BBD
Burning Books = cutting the legs out from under talk radio. Free speech is okay for the dems, as long as it pushes their viewpoints.

A vote for a dem is a vote for instant and eternal amnesty. REmember it. A most important election is just around the corner.

Loribme
Although I agree with your earlier point that our greatest threat is loss of nerve from within America, I do think it's worth observing that the argument about who "really" supports the troops is a red herring.

BBD may very well feel, with intense conviction, that he supports the troops. The thing is, that doesn't matter. Let him feel that way, because it's immaterial. His wrong-headed ideas about American security and the terrorist threat are still just as wrong, and just as dangerous to our security and way of life. Having a powerful feeling that one "supports the troops" is in no way a substitute for clarity or purpose.

What matters is acknowledging reality: about our enemy, about his situation and ours, about where and what he draws his strength from, and about effective ways of engaging him versus ineffective ways.

It would be colossally ineffective to continue engaging Islamic terrorists on the 1970s-1990s model, which entails sitting around on our arses waiting for them to attack, unexpectedly, somewhere else. No matter how much money we put into intelligence, a purely defensive, intelligence-heavy engagement strategy would merely slow down the toll of terrorism from within on the West's confidence in civil liberty and open societies.

What Bush has done instead is force the terrorists to a fight, on their turf, and on a battlefield of our choosing. Forcing guerrillas into a fight, rather than having to wait in directionless fear for their next move, is always a strategic success. That we don't see it that way is a testament to the power of the negativity, fear, and cultural self-loathing prevalent in our media, and many of our politicians.

But it's still a valid assessment of the situation. The enemy will always be mad when your strategy forces him to fight where he didn't previously have or intend to -- but that doesn't mean you've made a mistake. Over the enemy's strenuous objections is how wars are won. If you constrain yourself to never do anything the enemy will really, truly object to, you will merely FIGHT, at great expense to yourself, but with no hope of WINNING. Amazing how often people forget that.

Where our basic shortfall has lain in Iraq is in failing to prepare the battlespace better for the campaign. A number of commentators have tried to get at that analysis -- Hanson, Krauthammer, Cliff May, and Andy McCarthy come to mind. Quite honestly, I'm not sure all of them see how necessary it was, and is, in this war, to force the terrorists to defend territory -- to fight where WE say they will fight, rather than choosing, for ourselves, to cede all the initiative to the terrorists, and linger on a long, deadly, twilit defensive.

But those commentators have accurately identified the problem that we didn't prepare the battlespace in Iraq for what to do next, when the terrorists accepted battle where we forced them to. We're fixing that problem now. General Petraeus' "clear and hold" tactics are a key element of managing the battlespace better, and I am greatly encouraged that we're on that path now. I believe he and the military team in Iraq will accomplish a great deal by September.

I hope I'm wrong about the need to also shoulder Iran out of this tactical picture, with the up-front, politically communicated threat of force. I think that's the piece that's missing from our current strategy, and that it's critically important. But time will tell.

Meanwhile, statements of "support" to the troops are meaningless, like ten-year-olds desperately supporting their favorite football teams. At the end of the day there's a score, a winner and a loser, and THAT's what matters to America's future.

as per my 3:29pm post
Go to C-SPAN.org, Featured Topics, Iraq, Defense Forum Found., Speech on U.S. Strategy in Iraq.

big black dog
I think you must be afflicted with the mange.

GOOD BYE

Big Black Dog
Big Black Dog, in response to Primus54, writes:"Ha! Then you're not a good reader, either! I'm sure, though, calling for the execution or deportation of the American Left Wing is okay by your standards!"

If you are referring to what I wrote at 7:18 this morning, I want to clarify a few things. First of all, neither I nor anyone else called for the "execution" of anyone. So you are a liar. Second, you're quite right that I called for the deportation of treasonous liberals like "Dark Messiah", towards whom my post was mainly directed. Because from the sentiments he/she was expressing, it was clear that the thought of a U.S. defeat and humilitation was giving him/her great joy. It's perfectly ok to be against the war and critize policy. But when one starts cheering for the enemy, and says we are getting a well deserved "butt-whipping", this is IMO, treason.

So if you love your country, and support the troops like you claim, then I invite you to join me in condemning that kind of rhetoric.

JamieR
What is a Lt. Cpl?

Queen, The Question Is Answered
Yes He Can Do The Fandango

Scaramouche the sophist
You are clever but not profound nor far seeing. "Bring the troops home" is a tactic, but not a policy.

So, I ask you the following:

What are the positive aspects to our foreign policy of quitting Iraq on the quick? How sure are you of your opinion.

What are the negative consequences of doing the above, if any, and how sure are you of your opinion?

What were the cumulative negative effects, if any, of the following;

1. Carters capitulation to the act of War by The Iranians in invading the US, its embassy and doing nothing.

2. Reagan pulling out the troops of lenanon after marine baracks attacked by suicide bombers.

3. Reagan bargainiing for hostages with Iran?

4. The silence of the Western World when the leader of a govt in Iran put out a contract on the citizen of another country for publishing a book. The Rushie affair.

5. Doing nothing after the 1993 bombing, kobar towers, bombings in Africa, the uss Kohl and running away in Somalia.


Would quitting in Iraq have the same effect as the above or just an insignficant move.


I ask these to get beyond the mere sophism





Big Black Dog writes:
at 6:52 PM about Lt. Cpl:

"Please, Lt. Cpl. has no credibility - he's a voice on the internet - for all you know, he's 13 and sitting in mommy's basement."

Again, we get another example of BBD's projection of his own issues onto others.

Makes one wonder how brave he'd be if he had to come out from behind his computer and face Lt. Cpl. (or any of our brave men or women in uniform) and defend his rhetoric.

Talk about having a 13 year old mentality!


Scaramouche
What lessons for American foreign policy do you draw from the following:

1. The dropping of the atom bomb on japan?

2. JFK blockading russian ships in the cuban missile crisis.

3. At the time Reagan was bargaining for our hostages with arms to Iran, the Russians also had hostages taken. The Russians simply stated they would kill the families of the hostage takers and the Russian hostages were released.

5. In Pakistan, the govt was appeasing the crazy fanatics. However, when these fanatics killed a few chinese women massagers, things changed. All the chinese had to do was issue a strong rebuke and Pakistan all of sudden jumped and started killing the fanatics. They clearly did not do that after the beheading of Perl.


What conclusons do you draw from the above as to how we should do our foreign policy.

Good point Len
Every conservative on this board knows that there are times when a nation has to band together. Our greatest weakness is the internal attack from the left on our foreign policy. It is obvious that they are simply after Bush. After all, it was Clinton who delineated the Remove Saddam policy. If the President had been free to act, this whole mess would be largely over, Aquavelvajad would be history, oil prices would be down, deficits and the balance of trade would be declining, and world terrorism would be crippled even moreso.

Historians will some day realize that the power hungry Dems sold their own country down the drain, and in doing so, facilitated the deaths of thousands of American soldiers.

Primus54
What is a Lt. Cpl?

People keep a quotation from Lt. Cpl in the data stream. Someone should at least know what a Lt. Cpl. is.

big black dog says...
...Big Black Dog writes: Saturday, July, 14, 2007 10:02 AM
juandos says:
"Can you barking moonbat libtards say, "Walter Duranty"?"

Hey,can you say Richard Nixon? Can you say J.Edgar Hoover? Can you say Henry Kissinger? Can you say Ronald Reagan? Can you say George Bush?

Now there's a pack of liars worthy of the name...

But we expect lies from politicians and do NOT expect lies from the media, ideally. The NYT has very little in its daily nonsense that is factual these days. Walter Duranty was the height of hypocrisy that involved not 3,000 deaths, nor 300,000 deaths, but millions. And Pinch doesn't have the manhood to touch the subject, much less admit that Duranty was a stooge, like so many others that Senator McCarthy outed.

As to universities in the US being hotbeds of liberalism, they are, but that doesn't mean that there aren't one or two decent, honest people among the profs--Hanson is one of the decent, honest ones. Your attempt here was ridiculous.

Big Black Dog sez...
..."You won't bully me, soldier boy, because you're stuck in sh!town, my friend, while I enjoy a gorgeous NYC Saturday morning (with my wife and family)."

The jokes on BBD: after the nuke goes off in Central Park -- and it will, my friends -- because, while we fret about trans-fats, second-hand cigarette smoke, global warming and not offending anyone anywhere, the terrorists remain fanatically single minded in killing us.

It's only a matter of time.

So when New York [and probably London, Paris and Tel Aviv] is nothing but a radioactive glow, the Swords of Qadisiyah will still be overhanging central Baghdad.

Such is the world we face...

Locked in the nut ball box.
Keith Ellison D-Ill is sure he does not want to be locked into statements designed to lead one to believe that he thinks Bush is equal to hitler. He will commit to "Vice President Dick Cheney's stance of refusing to answer questions from Crongress was the 'very definition of Totalitarianism, authoritarianism and dictatorship.

Since authoritative is a synonym for dictatorial, one must conclude that he forgot the other synonyms, the reporter was to lazy to write all of his statement down or he closed and locked the nut box from the inside and his full statement was not audible.

Some others are: decisive, sure, conclusive

Some antonyms are: weak, vague, vacillating

Mr. Ellison must be weak, vague and vacillating on the issue of separation of powers. He is in "total" control of the key to the nut box.

War on poverty
I wish the leftists, who are so anxious to see us cut and run in Iraq just as they were from Vietnam, were just as committed to see us withdraw from their so called 'war on poverty'.

All one has to do is note how little progress has been made as measured by 'benchmarks'; how after the expenditure of TRILLIONS no discernable progress has made as measured by their own flexible definitions of 'poverty'; how after forty years of their 'great society' and the attendant monumental waste and social destruction they still aren't satisfied and demand that more of their 'solutions' be implimented instead of calling for a withdrawal that would give us all a break.

I'll make all you cut and run libtards a deal: I'll support you on withdrawing from Iraq and ignore the resulting carnage and massacres that follow just as you did in Cambodia, Vietnam and Laos if you take your 'great society', all your tax and spend schemes, and all your judicial despots and withdraw out of my life and STFU.

Is it a deal?

Scaramouche opines:
"Lt. Corporal,
After observing your posting times and dates for about a month, one thing is very obvious, you are consistently at a pc connected to the internet. You are not in Iraq and if you really are in the military you should be court marshaled for dereliction of duty for screwing off on the internet all day and night instead of protecting the United States of America."

Scaramouche... I see you are another libsquirt anti-patriot insulting a uniform ala "Big Black Dog".

It says a great deal about the disease of liberalism that a 20-year old U.S. Marine is infinitely more knowledgeable and mature than you and your brethren who have apparently lost your way off the DailyKos highway.

Feel free to return where you came from, jackass.

thanks to primus and others
I have, in the past, been a huge opponent of the "flag as offensive" link after every post. Even on this site, it seems to be used the same way it's used on the likes of dailykos -- to flag as "not in agreement". "Offensive" has never had anything to do with it.

That said, I very nearly became a hypocrite tonight. That post by Blackdog at 11:14 very nearly had me reaching for the "flag as offensive" link. Offensive, it most surely was. But that's still not what the link is there for.

Primus, thanks for reminding me of that.

And Lt. Corporal, I apologize profusely for having to read that drivel, and I thank you for your service. I trust you don't think for a minute that more than a handful of so-called Americans are like that.

And finally, Blackdog, you need to get the he|| out of my country.

JamieR
I believe Nert was referring to BBD's 11:14 AM post -- which is still on the thread.

Gonna grab some shuteye... Cheers all!

Big Black Dog
In your latest rant to Nert, I see you are still having problems with history.

It is dictatorships that shut down individual rights, pal. You know -- the Stalins and Castros of the world. In other words, the friends and heroes of the Left.

Oh -- I disagree with Nert. I think people like you should stay here in the great USA. We should always keep examples around of what happens when liberalism is allowed to fester.

Hmmm... maybe we should have liberal petting zoos.

Tanabear
I see you are still amongst us -- ever preaching your hate for all things "neo-con" and the conspiracy theories that should be relegated to the SciFi channel.

Really Tanabear -- that act is getting old and continues to talk around your true beliefs.

Show some guts and just come out and say it -- "I hate da Joos!"

Jeesh!

sick and tired of false WW2 analogies
Lt. Corporal writes: "In both the World Wars we got our butts kicked about half the time in battles big and small.
Should we have raised the white flag when after two years of WWII we were still losing?"

Sigh. Once again, conservatives are selectively reading history, cherry-picking one lesson from WW2 while ignoring the others.

The U.S. fought World War II as a global war. Only some 6 months after Pearl Harbor, the U.S. Navy scored a huge victory over the Japanese fleet at Midway. The U.S. invaded North Africa and then Italy. The U.S. B-17 bombers began systematically carpet-bombing Germany itself. All this long before the invasion of France at Normandy. We did NOT stop all this go "build a democracy" in North Africa.

Americans supported the war for a very good reason: We were winning it. From mid 1942 on, America had seized the initiative and we never looked back. Whereas in the Iraq War, Bush went on nationwide TV last January to admit publicly that the war was a mess.

WW2 demonstrated the global reach of the U.S. armed forces. It's always been one of our biggest strategic advantages: We can airlift our Army anywhere on Earth. We can send our Navy aircraft carriers and nuclear submarines anywhere on earth.

BUT that advantage is neutralized when we stick most of our Army and two aircraft carriers to supporting one front in Iraq. We call it the GLOBAL War on Terror, yet we are pouring 90% of our effort into just ONE country.

Meanwhile, our enemy has developed mobility of their own, with jet travel and the Internet. Jihadists now go all over the world, bombing Beslan, Bali, Mumbai, while we're stuck in Iraq, Iraq, Iraq. Not a single terrorist attack anywhere on earth has been prevented solely due to our Iraq intervention.

That strategy makes NO SENSE WHATSOEVER.

As for support from the home front: In WW2, the American public had a STAKE in the war even on the home front: Gasoline was rationed, along with other consumer goods. War bonds were sold in every movie theater. Americans planted "Victory Gardens" to conserve food for the fighting men overseas. Even on the home front, the war was very real to Americans. Not this televised "video war" that the Pentagon has tried to sell to Americans ever since the Gulf War.

Lt. Corporal, Big Black Dog, Scaramouche
Lt. Corporal:
Thank you for your service and for putting your life on the line so that I can sleep well at nights and enjoy my freedom. Some of the drivel emanating from the mouths of some of these left wing loonies would be humorous if what we are engaged in was something to be laughed at. What these "useful idiots" don't seem to grasp, or want to grasp,is that we are in a war for the survival of western civilization. I don't have to remind you of that. Again thank you for your sacrifices and may God protect you and the men and women serving with you.
Big Black Dog and Scaramouche:
Why are you two dudes acting like a**holes when Lt. Corporal is putting his life on the line so that you can enjoy your freedom? You lefties never cease to amaze me with your drivel.
An ole Korean War Vet

SteveL opines:
"Not a single terrorist attack anywhere on earth has been prevented solely due to our Iraq intervention...."

Got a source for this "fact", SteveL?

Willi Beax
Big Black Dog and Scaramouche suffer from the mental disorder of liberalism. It is a "progressive" disease from which recovery is possible, but only when the afflicted choose to place truth and maturity before all other virtues.

BTW... thank you for YOUR service to this great nation!

If there was ever...
... a case of the pot calling the kettle black, this latest from BBD has to rank among the top:

BBD @ 11:08 AM:

"Because Lt Corp. is an arrogant boy-man..."

But -- keep writing, Big Black Dog! This is better than a good episode of the Simpsons.

Yo Big Black Dog
How dare you insult that brave young man!! Shame on you.
As Primus said, keep writing. It's obvious that since you are incapable of dazzling us with your self perceived brilliance, you are doing your utmost to try to baffle us with your bulls**t. Are you by any chance suffering from Cranial Rectilitus? Since you claim to have a brief stay in the military, a genius like you should remember what that means. Keep the invective coming. I'm enjoying every minute of it.
An ole Korean War Vet

Wow, usual suspects still here
SteveL (inadvertently) raises a good point, which is that the whole point of analogies is that they are between things that are not IDENTICAL, but rather whose similarities in some aspects are useful for making a point.

BBD raised it earlier, in fact, in disagreeing with my Maginot Line analogy.

But of course the GWOT IS like WWII. It's also different from WWII. DUH. The armed forces of the nation of Japan attacked our fleet at Pearl Harbor in WWII, whereupon Germany also declared war on us, we declared war on Japan and Germany, and we and the UK invaded North Africa.

My goodness, that's nothing like what happened in 2001. How can there possibly be comparisons?

News flash: no war is exactly like any war that came before it. When analysts make analogies, they are considering underlying, conceptual themes, and principles of warmaking and politics. The particulars of specific incidents that illustrate them will, by their nature, differ. This fact, per se, does not invalidate analogies. Analogies MAY be poorly argued or analyzed, but the blank, obvious fact that "WWII is not the GWOT" is not an argument against any of them.

We can compare any war to another war, and we should. CONTRASTING WWII with the GWOT is itself making an analogy between the wars -- we are fools if we don't compare the circumstances of the wars, and analyze where we made good decisions, and where we made bad ones, and why, for the benefit of making decisions now. We should be doing this often, with WWII, WWI, the Cold War, Vietnam, Korea, and the applicable lessons of other conflicts like Israel's wars with the Arabs, and British vs. French and Belgian experiences in Africa and the Middle East.

So far I haven't found any of VDH's war analogies to be poorly analyzed or argued, although some of them can be extended only very narrowly or carefully. That's OK. Some of the most narrowly applicable analogies illustrate the most important points.

I would say that's the case with the Maginot Line analogy I made yesterday. Because what followed the bypassing of the Maginot Line in 1940 was a fast-acting blitzkrieg, instead of a slower-acting terrorism campaign, Big Black Dog didn't like my point. Why, it's silly to say our conceptual "Maginot Line" against the terrorists has already been breached, since the "Wehrmacht" isn't in "Paris" yet!

But I stand by the analogy. The enduring point about the Maginot Line isn't that blitzkrieg works really fast, it's that relying on an outdated defensive idea leaves you unprepared to deal with the new paradigm that has superseded it.

The French built the Maginot Line to "fight WWI." They actually had quite a bit of political notice that the next conflict with Germany would be different (and indeed, from a military standpoint, were in the forefront of armored tank design, and gave German planners some of their best ideas about armored maneuver warfare). And certainly, Americans since the Civil War generations have no real concept of how exhausted and depopulated France was by the end of WWI, and often don't take that into account in assessing France's reactions throughout the 1930s.

But the fact remains that France relied on an outdated defensive idea, until it was too late. Too many Americans are doing the same today. Terror campaigns don't work as fast as armored blitzkrieg, but they are bypassing our outdated defensive idea just as effectively. Being a sovereign nation that hasn't been attacked by another sovereign nation won't save the United States from being destroyed by Islamic terrorism.

While we are arguing the justification for using armed force on the sponsors of terrorism, terrorism has already succeeded in curtailing some of our civil liberties, arranging for situations in which DOD assets can be deployed under federal command INSIDE the United States (in place of state governors using their National Guard), and rendering air travel hideous with government monitoring and a priori suspicion of little old ladies.

The new paradigm is upon us. Mere avoidance of attack by the armed forces of another nation is not equal, any more, to being secure.

It's a whole other argument that America can't succeed, in fighting terrorism, by trying to do it "symmetrically"; we MUST use massed, conventional force against the organized sponsors of terrorism, if we expect to defeat terrorism, ever. I've made that argument elsewhere.

But the point here is that terrorists, without being a sovereign nation with an organized military, have forced us to change our own laws and the way we live: to impose costs on ourselves in civil liberties and security measures. The outdated idea that "sovereign nationhood" is an effective defense is already breached. If we don't seek to defeat them, before they can do more, terrorists will eventually achieve an outcome in which we don't recognize our own nation. Some of us WILL be able to see that for what it is: national defeat.

Catch 22 in Iraq
Some of us had the foresight to oppose the Iraq invasion in late 2002, when it seemed obvious that it was going to occur. I don't claim special wisdom, but even I could predict what would happen.

A few reminders.

(1) We had not finished the job vs al-Qaeda and the Taliban in Afghanistan. Anyone who followed contemporary history knows how the Soviet fought there for many years, only to give up and withdraw.

(2) Saddam was bad, of course, but he posed no threat to the USA. In fact, he oppressed Muslim fundamentalists, in line with the secular character of the Baath party. There was no connection between Saddam and 9-11. His arch-enemies were Iran and bin Laden, who called him an infidel. We just can't go into every country whose government we dislike and overthrow that government.

(3) Why did we go into Iraq? Here are five of the reasons. (a) Arrogance of those who think that the US military should dominant wherever and whenever it chooses. (b) Ignorance - no understanding of the domestic situation in Ira. (c) Oil and the eagerness of the US companies to control Iraqi oil. (d) The influence of the Israeli lobby, which for years has manipulated US policy in the Middle East to favor Israel. Saddam was anti-Israel, as is every Arab and Muslim country in the world, and many other nations as well. (e) The greed of corporations, contractors of various kinds, etc., who are reaping huge profits - often corruption involved - in Iraq.

(4) The war has killed thousands, caused 2 million to flee, led us into enormous national debt (much owed to China), led to bitter division among Americans re the Iraq War, created a second front, alienated allies and many others, strengthened Iran, weakened regimes in the Middle East allied with us, aided al-Qaeda recruitment, stretched our military and led to several repeat deployments for many, etc., etc. Bin Laden is still on the loose.

(5) The problem: if we leave Iraq soon there is likely to be a massacre. If we stay the situation is equally bleak. I am furious with those of both parties who got us in. I am furious with greedy corporations, the Israeli lobby, ignorant Christian Zionists and their fantasies re end-times, W Bush (I had voted for Bush I), Cheney, Wolfowitz, Perle, Libby, Kagan, Wurmser, Abrams, North, and many more. I salute Ron Paul, Collins, Hagel and other GOPers who have the courage and the common sense to break with our current Iraq policy. I also salute Jewish peaceniks who struggle in Israel and here in the USA to turn Israel from a harsh, iron-fist oppressor and aggressive land-grabber to an honest negotiator for a just and lasting peace.

Meanwhile, the US must work out a fair settlement in the Israel-Palestinian conflict, stop its incendiary and unnecessary 'axis of evil' sort-of-talk and its arrogant threats against Iran and others, and become a true champion of democracy, freedom and peace. It has to put its pious talk on the shelf and be a genuine advocate of harmony around the world.

sacrmouche
Your answers are superficial; they are gut feelings rather than thought out in view of history.

Pre-emption: you want 100% surety. It does not exist. People get married with all hopes of eternity. Well, we know the truth. Some make it; others dont.

When Hitler invaded the Rhineland early in his admin when he was weak, people like you who did not read his works saw it as a natural response to get back what belong to German. No big deal. Following you, one would say there was no 100% surety that it was beginning of the end. Marsahll Foch, the French leader of Allied Forces in WW ! stated when he heard that the Rhineland would be demilitarized instead of going to the French that it meant another war. Far ahead of your kind of thinking dominated by mushy hope. Democracies with middle class comforts and absent radical idealogies are not prone to fight until it is too late. And in these days being too late carries a heavy cost

That was then when oceans separated us. Today with technology, one can do much more damage. One guy coming across the border can blow a whole department store with his cell phone. Atomic weapons.

Hence, the cost of being 100% sure is a great risk. Your vocabulary goes back to ancient times. Get with it and stop repeating cliches that are not relevant today.

What should be obvious is that we have an interest in a stable middle east because of our dependence on oil for the forseeable future.

It has been stated that in the examples of appeasement I gave in my prior post were the reasons for Ben Laden's boldness and that of Iran. Ben
Laden has said so himself; We are a paper tiger etc.

You dismiss all that and do not even address it. That is why I cant take you seriously. You are too wrapped up in the paleo rhetoric instead of being a practical realist.

You are so sure of yourself what would in Iraq; you so sure that if we pull out it would have no negative effect on the US. I appreciate your smartness but it is all verbal. One can never know for sure what will happen. What we know for sure from history that stabilizing Iraq is not to be done overnight; experience with similar situations indicates a ten year project. Our experience in the philipines, Malaysia.

There is signicant number of Iraquis who want a decent govt. I dont know if it is possible. IT clearly would be lost cause if we pulled out and we would be tainted as a country that could not be trusted to keeps its commitments. The troops loss compared to other wars is minimal although death is always painful to those left behind.

For you who is wedded to theory, it is an easy call. All non-thinkers, have no trouble making such calls. I dont.

Right now we are making progess re Al Qeada. IF we had more troops we could shut down the militia and provide security for the govt to function,
OF course, not a perfect govt compared to us. But with security things could evolve. Without security it will be a mess for the whole area.

I wont take that gamble or the easy way out as you preach.

Lincoln before Gettysburg thought he would lose the election because of people like you.

iraq had nothing to with 9/11???
And yes, Japan had nothing to do with appeasement of Germany. And Cuba ha d nothing to do with Soviet domination in EAstern Europe.

At least if you are going to argue, understand the rationale for invadiing Iraq and criticize that.

9/11 for many meant the old policy of appeasement of irrational characters could no longer be the policy of the US. Hence, it was irrelevant whether Hussein was in on the planning or aiding of 9/11. HE was a problem. HE thumbed his nose at international law as defined by the usually hapless UN. He harbored terrorists and paid openly for suicide bombers in Israel. If left alone(the sanctions were a joke and would have been dissolved) he was a potential threat. So the policy was to get rid of him.
You may disagree but it was a rational policy. In hindsight it was a mistake to allow him to remain in power in the first gulf war.

We were successful in Grenada and Paraguay. This is more difficult but at least stop bringing up whether hussein was in the plot for 9/11. That is irrelevant to the reasons for going in.

Whether you like it or not the analogy that was used was past history, We sat on our hands when Hitler took over the Rhineland because it was not an imminent threat. That was a mistake in hindsight. So, the reasoning for going into Iraq is not off the wall. One cant do an experiment to test out the best alternative. One has to make a judgment. Judgment is fallible. But at least know what the rationale is before attacking irrelvancies such as Iraq and 9/11.
.
You know there are those who stated that slavery would have died a natural death. Maybe they were right and we avoided the most costly war in our history. MAybe this; maybe that. But decisions have to be made. And agree or not agree, the plan to invade Iraq was rational. That there was poor planning in not establishing immediate security is obvious. We were also negigent to allow Pearl Harbor. Get over it. The question is what we do now instead of rehashing the past.


CharlieS
Great post/rebuttal to BBD.

He -- and others like him -- have no solutions. They are either "head in the sand" stupid, each time pretending that the last attack is "the best" our enemies can do; or they offer nothing but criticism for the decisions made by others who at least had the courage to act on their convictions even if such action had a political cost.

It really IS like trying to reason with children. Eventually, they wear you out and you just do what you know is right, even if you can't convince them of the obvious -- which only seems to come with maturity and wisdom.

Churchill was right when he said, "A man under 30 who is not a liberal has no heart, but a man over 30 who is not a conservative has no brain."

tanabear
I will ignore your ad hom remarks although they do indicate that emotions drive you.

You state that Hussein obeyed UN Sanctions. Come on. He violated them all the way and only when Bush massed troops during debate did he play the cat and mouse game. And so if troops are withdrawn and demobilized, then what. Well, history would repeat itself. This is something we could not keep up. Cant mobilize and then demobilize while he plays us.

The sanctions had no effect on the ruling class. And given their weapons they could dominate a weakened populations. I said the sanctions were a joke because the sanctions were suppose to weaken the regime and not starve the people. But the sanctions were run under a corrupt UN which rewarded Hussein and screwed the populace--just the opposite of their intentions.

Suppose HUssein was somewhat smarter and allowed weapons detection and he got a good grade. Just like Germany was disarmed after WW ! and we then suppose to be good guys. So you would then trust a psycpathic guy like him to go. Clearly, he would without sanctions again acquire weapons and so we are only postponing the day or reckoning. What do you propose that we atom the country to nothing to avoid this. You are so trusting of Sadamm. To use an analogy: It is easier to treat cancer in its incipient stages and so with Iraq. You can argue the other way but to dismiss as a stupid argument is plain silly.

Your defintion of appeasement is narrow. Appeasement is anything that allows your potential enemy to think he can get away with things. And so one trace this policy from Carter and Iran; Reagan and Irans; running from Lebanon under Reagan; tne the Clinton do nothing while we were attacked a number of times. This allows us to be perceived as a paper tiger and weak. That is exactly how Ben Laden summed us up. Iraq attacked Kuwait because he thought we would not do anything.

I dont question that neo-cons advised getting rid of Sadamm in terms of our national security interests. So what. You may disagree but one can make rational arguments for such.

Dont be such a wise guy and make fun of democracy. The Civil war was fought ostensibly to save the union and not to free slaves. But that was inevitable. The primary reason to invade Iraq was national security; and once invading it would be beneficial to have a democracy. Right or wrong, it was the feeling that the backward middle east was a mess because it lacked some form of secular democracy as for egs in Turkey. The idea was that many of the regimes in Middle East were inherently unstable leading to tinderbox in the middle east.

I dont have a crystal ball and cant see 10 years into the future. But you do; and you are so sure that following your ideas would have the most beneficial. You cant prove it. So we will have to wait and see.

Tanabear writes:
"I'm disputing his statement that Zarqawi and Saddam were seen together in Fallujah before we invaded. There is no evidence of this..."

Where do you think "evidence" comes from, Jackass!

Really Tanabear -- you used to be a greater challenge.

Cheers!

Hilaious, Incredibly ignorant DOG
Big Black Dog you are without a doubt the most ingorant person I have ever encountered. It is actually quite humorous. For example:

You say leaving Iraq would not be a defeat because we are not fighting an organized army.

This is so completely absurd that even animals understand more than this. Just because you do not recognize what we are fighting you think we are not fighting. Or do you think we are going to quit fighting without it being defeat?

Anyways, nobody is ever going to explain anything to this probably self brain-washed liberal who comes on this thread to win us over by telling us all how stupid we are.

Let me just say something to my fellow free-thinkers, we can easily win in 2008, all we have to do is make our message one of optimism. Which of course it already is. People will always vote for We can WIN over, we all suck and nothing can fix it so lets all just go home and cry about it.

To Hal0
If you are looking for military people who support the mission in Iraq perhaps you should check the re-enlistment rates of Iraqi veterans.

You seem to be doing the equivalent of looking for an M&M in an M&M factory

CharleS & Israel
Liberal talking points? My position on the Middle East has nothing to do with liberal or conservative. It's a matter of justice and injustice, war and peace.

It's our responsibility to act as a mediator for several reasons, among them: (1) we're the only ones that have any significant influence on Israel; (2) we provide Israel billions each year, over $125 billion over the years; (3) we have provided Israel with most of its military superiority; and (4) our one-sidedness and lack of balance has kept the problem from being solved.

The idea that Israel has agreed to return 90% of Palestinian land is only part of the picture. Israel demanded to keep large settlements on the West Bank, insisted on Jews-only roads crisscrossing the West Bank, divided Palestinian into disjointed cantons, insisted on controlling Palestinian borders, denied Palestine proper air and water rights; etc. No respectable Palestinian could accept this humiliation and injustice. The goal was to make Palestine a puppet state, subordinate in every way to Israel.

But you have been fed such bigotry and false propaganda that until you study the situation thoroughly - and read both sides with an open mind - nothing is likely to convince you.

Hamas is a product of Israeli policy. Israeli first encouraged Hamas as a counterforce to Arafat and Fatah. When Palestinians became more and more frustrated, both by Israel and Fatah, they voted in Hamas. The US is always demanding democracy, free elections. But when the election doesn't go our way, guess what? No, I do not defend Hamas, but its rise to prominence is the product of our USA-Israeli policy.

In fact, our entire quagmire in the Middle East began in the Holy Land, when USA policy followed the crazed lead of the Israeli lobby, whose principal concern is Israel and certainly not the USA. Congress has been even worse than the presidents over the years, and Democrats as bad as Republicans. Ron Paul(R) is one of very few in Congress who have the guts to speak the truth - and former President Carter, too. In the long run, our policy is disastrous not only to the USA but to Israel as well. Why else is Israel so despised in the world? Why is anti-Semitism so rampant throughout so much of the world? I presume that is everybody else's fault except Israel's.

I hope you read the reports by the two professors - Mearsheimer and Walt - on the tragic control the Israeli lobby has had over USA policy. Naturally, they were immediately denounced as anti-Semites, the customary way of smearing rather than debating.

tanabear
You do drink the kool aid. So Clinton dropped a bomb here and there on Iraq. Big deal. He also blew up an aspirin factory in the Sudan. Those were equivalent to tapping a bully on the shoulder. Note, in the case of Yugoslavia Clinton did do extensive damage that worked; but with respect to the Arabs or Ben Laden or Hussein. As you aware, the Clinton admin finally came to the conclusion that regime change was necessary. How do you like those apples; Bush admin was following the Clinton blue print. Sure one can argue there may have been other ways to get regime change. But the point is that Bush inherited a policy and took it serioiusly.

What makes you so sure that inspections would continue forever. Once he had a clean bill of health, given the UN, one could reasonable argue that inspections would stop.

The point is that democracies are loathe to go to war until the last moment and that in today's world may not be the best policy.

Israel did a preemtive strike on Iraq nuclear plant and was condemened by everyone including the US. In the long run, it turned out to be a good move. We face the same issue with Iran. And I would be in favor of taking out their nuclear capabilities. What do we have to lose.

10 BILLION DOLLARS A MONTH
Does that mean anything to any taxpayers and citizens out there? TEN BILLION DOLLARS A MONTH. If you're inoculated against the dozens of lives we're losing there or the hundreds of deaths of brown people then TEN BILLION DOLLARS A MONTH of taxpayer's money should wake you up. WMD's? Spreading democracy? Fighting them so they won't fight us over here? Is it worth TEN BILLION A MONTH of your tax dollars? Personally I think it's to secure oil for multinational companies, but that's beside the point of TEN BILLION DOLLARS A MONTH. What can VDH or GWB or Cheney can say to you that can let you spend the wealth of the American people, not oil company's money or even wealthy American's tax money, but your and your grandchildren's future tax money at TEN BILLION DOLLARS A MONTH?
You're a tool, Victor David Hanson, and your believers are tools too. Impeach Cheney first, then Bush.

Nixon Library, Hewitt's Failure
Would like to mention to the legion of HH fans. His stewardship of the Richard Nixon Library has been jackhammered out of existence. See the recent news stories, google "hewitt nixon library". Seems he guided the early formation of the library and created an entire fiction about some conspiracy that tried to take down Nixon. This, despite the smoking gun dialog that proved he covered up a political burglary of his enemies. Why would Hewitt allow a distortion of facts? It doesn't fit his idolatry of failed conservative leadership. You're seeing the same character flaw in this defense of the failed Bush administration. I hope he can find a true conservative that won't betray his blind faith. Someday there might be a conservative who doesn't have to cheat, lie or mislead common Americans with Victor David Hanson's talents to succeed. Until then, let Americans who play by the rules lead us to progress, not the abject failure of the Nixon, Reagan and Bush administrations.

Scaramouche
You are a waste of time. Your analogy to Mexico is pure nonsense. And so why bother. I was not programmed by Rove

I thought a noticed a bit of decency in you when you were upset by my statement that liberals run from the likes of Hirsi Ali. As she has pointed out the liberals either by silence or rationalization end up supporting the worst crimes against women. You can win your debating points but you unforutnately as many liberals, not all, are quite shallow.

So goodbye.

Scaramouche
i forgot one thing. Karl Rove got his talking points from the Clinton administration. IF you stopped to do some research, it was the Clinton adminstation who came with the policy of regime change in Iraq. Did you know that. So karl rove inherited that from the democrats. It was the Clinton admin that came to the concllusion that looping a bomb here and there was not an effective policy.

OF course, we will never if Clinton in office after 9/11 he would have followed thru on HIS policy of regime change. And then what. You would be defending him.

to Scaramouche
"Optimism, did that come out of a pentagon think tank or did you pull that our of your @$$?"

Actually it came from Ronald Reagan, recently voted the greatest American on a Discovery channel contest, and the probably the most successful statesman ever.

Not that anyone here is going to change their minds about anything but I thought I might mention a couple of things:

1. The 9/11 commission stated that there WAS a connection between Al Qaeda and Iraq. Keep in mind we are not fighting 9/11 we are fighting AQ and thus their allies.

2. The debate about whether it was right or wrong to go in is completely pointless, academic, and a waste of time. The debate now should be if we leave in victory or defeat. Those of you advocating defeat, keep in mind you then bare some responsibility for the Iraq lives lost in the ensuing chaos. Just as those that withdrew from Vietnam, denied air power and military supplies that would have allowed South Vietnam to stand on its own, and purposely created a communist regime all across Vietnam bare some responsibility for those murdered Vietnamese.

to Charlie S.
Wow, that was harsh. I (being 17) would simply say this to Tanabear

"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature, and has no chance of being free unless made or kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." - John Stuart Mill


to Charlie S.
Again very harsh, and while they do deserve that fate and even appear to be begging for it. I will still protect them (once Im in the AF) because they are Americans, I think. Even though they are completely undeserving of that title, mainly because they show no regard for innocent life.

While they do not deserve the protection of the US military they will still recieve it, whether they like it or not. The more they hate people like me, the more I will do to protect them.

to Charlie S.
I agree with everything you said, and perhaps you are right maybe it will shock them into understanding. But that probably won't happen, Osama could set up shop in their homes and they would still deny he his a threat.

While I will not say what you said, it the cold reality and must be said, bless you for being the one to do it. God know you are probably going to get flamed for it

Yo Charlie S
Thank you for your thoughtful and hard hitting comments. My greatest sympathy goes out the Big Black Dog, Scaramouche and Tanabear. These poor folks are suffering from one the most severe cases of Cranial Rectilitis that I have ever witnessed. God help us if they prevail. I'm afraid the consequences for Western Civilization will be irreversible.
An ole Korean War Vet

Primus 54
Regarding your post 3:44PM last paragraph, truer words were never spoken. Churchill had a alot of great quotes. Wish I could remember some them.

CBS Evening News - It will take 18 month
I was pleased to see CBS Evening News do a 20 minute treatment on this subject (I think it was the same night) which interviewed all the military officers who admitted that if we disbanded and went home today, in order to do so safely it would take up to 18 months just to get out of there.

to Charlie S. and DOG
Well Charlie look like you were right thier ignorance knows no bounds.

Dog, what you said about his brother in 'nam shows once again how little you know about military strategy. Every historian I have heard will tell you that we had won that war militarily, and South Vietnam had the capability to stand on thier own if we just sent them supplies. But of because of idiots like you we decided to quit, we "snatched defeat from the jaws of victory." Retarded democrats with not military experience imposed ridiculous RoEs (Rules of Engagement, meaning when you can attack) that subsequently caused unnecessary American deaths. Around 35% of the casualties or more died simply because of the idiots back home, and 100% of the 3 million innocent Vietnamese slaughtered after the war died because if idiots like you.

You almost love death as much as the jihadis.

Yo Mr BBD
You write:
"Just to undertsand this: you lost a brother in Nam because of anti-war protestors? Dude, if your bro was as stupid as you (or as evil) he either shot himself or was fragged by the company cook..."

Ah just could not resist jumpin' in. Another attempt on your part to be brilliant? Really old chap! You must try harder. BTW the only "yella busturds" that I'm aware of are those who fake an injury or illness to get a medical discharge. Or run to a foreign country to escape the draft. If the shoe fits, wear it!
An ole Korean War vet

Willi Beaux

It's fairly obvious that BBD hasn't had his rabies and distemper shots.

BBD

What Charlie S. wished on you and your family is UNCONSIONABLE. He really "crossed the line" with that one; he, too, needs rabies and distemper shots.

It strikes me that, reading most of the posts above, there is more than enough venom and bile -- and rabies? -- to go around -- across the entire political spectrum -- and I do not exempt myself from this list.

That beibg said, with your canine "Nom de Blog" you do kinda set youtself up for snippy comments such as mine.

TYPO ALERT

The last sentence SHOULD begin "That BEING said...."

to BBD
Dog, despite what you have been told not everyone on the right is racist, in fact I do not know of anyone on the right that is racist. I have Korean family and you using the G-word is quite offensive so please stop, no matter who you claim to be speaking like, it is still wrong.

I'm pretty sure Dog has illustrated his ignorance better than I ever could.

If you are going to pretend to know about the military try to get your acronyms right, CIC should be CinC.

Just because you screwed up your world with Vietnam(I assume you were alive during Vietnam and were against that war too) and caused the deaths of 3 million innocent Vietnamese and 20,000 American troops does not mean you have to do the same to our world. You've done enough damage already now please just back off.

Finally give my congratulation to whoever taught you how to read and write, they must have been extremely talented, as you show no ability to learn here.

Yo CharlesS
I think you're wasting you time trying to make these folks understand what's at stake here. As I said in a previous post, they are all suffering from a severe case of Cranial Rectilitis which is worse than having one's head in the sand.
Furthermore just look at the invective in Mr. Dog's hateful diatribe back to future Air Force "idiot". Don't that give you a nice warm feeling inside?
An Ole Korean War Vet

to BBD
This is ridiculous, I will give one last effort to explain to Dog why his kind of talked killed innocent people in Vietnam and is killing innocent people in Iraq.

First Dog you have to understand that words are weapons. Winston Churchill used words to keep the English motivated and thus from falling to the Nazis, which had Chamberlain been in office would certainly have happened. Ronald Reagan used words to win the Cold War, and Jimmy Carter nearly lost the Cold War because of his words.

"No Vietnemese ever died because some lefty wanted to end the war."

This is not true, the US was forced to pull out of Vietnam because of lefties, the US was forced to give zero aid to the people we promised to support because of lefties. As a result South Vietnam was overrun and the North Vietnamese slaughtered the southerners, puposefully murdering innocent men and women and children through government policy. Murder has never been US government policy.

"First you invade a country that never harmed America ('Nam)"

This is not ture, there is a difference between invading and defending. Invading would what we did in France during WW2 and what we did in Iraq in both Gulf Wars. Defending is what we did in Vietnam, coming at the request of the South Vietnamese who had a strange aversion to being slaughtered, and it is what we did in Saudi Arabia during the first Gulf War, and in Korea now. You don't believe we have invaded South Korea do you?

"then, when you fail to acheive your undeclared objective (sound familiar)"

This is not true, the objective in Vietnam was to defend the South Vietnamese from the North, which was accomplished the entire time we were there. Of course because of ridiculous limits place on the military (not being able to invade North Vietnam or go into Cambodia or Laos) made it impossible for us to eliminate the VietCong and the North Vietnamese. Yet once again the military rose to the challenge and drove the enemy to the negotiating table. At this negotiating table North Vietnam agreed to not invade South Vietnam, and we promised to protect South Vietnam if they did. Of course North Vietnam did invade and we did not protect South Vietnam, the democratic congress (pressured by war protesters) refused to even send in medical aid. So as you can see here and prior to WW2 negotiating with evil does not work.

"and your "war" spirals into chaos, you blame the ROE because you can't slaughter willy-nilly (because dropping napalm on sleepy villages is actually TOO RESTRAINED)"

This is not true, the military held their own in Vietnam especially considering the limits placed on them. Even the Tet offensive was a military loss for the North Vietnamese and the VietCong. The VietCong lost over half of their entire force. But it was portrayed at home as a loss, and because you believed the lying media you asked us to pull out of Vietnam, causing the slaughters in Vientam, Cambodia, and Laos. While you apparently have no military brains let me explain to you that those "sleepy villages" were often controlled by VietCong, the people were terrorized and forced to attack US troops. What would you do in that situation?

"as if that might save the day - meanwhile, some American troops DO commit atrocities along the way - and still it fails"

500,000 troops and you expect them all to behave perfectly, you couldn't do that in a city of 500,000 in the middle of the country, much less in a war zone. What fails? Certainly not the military as I have said before that war was won(as much as it could be, because the military was not allowed to wipe out the enemy) by the military.

"so, ultimately, you blame the media and those who wish for the war to end because"

The quickest way of ending a war is to lose it(not my words) which is what we did in Vietnam. Because of the lefty politicians and war protesters we pulled out of Vietnam, in loss. The media failed to explain to the liberals why we were in Vietnam, what would happen if we left, and what needed to be done to win. You see war as terrible (which it is) but what happened after the war was worse, and would not have happened if lefties had not demanded the military not be allowed to eliminate the enemy, thus forcing us to stay there forever to protect the South Vietnamese, but then said we have to leave because we can't win. WE CAN'T WIN BECAUSE YOU SAID THE MILITARY CAN'T ELIMINATE THE ENEMY.

"YOU'RE the failure who defended failed policy."

It wasn't failed policy, it was as successful as it was allowed to be, and yet lefties still said we had to leave, even though we were winning. Then the lefties denied even medical aid to the South Vietnamese desperately trying to protect themselves. Lefties lied to and betrayed the South Vietnamese, and what was at stake was thier lives, but lefties did not care if they died, just that we didn't have to do something hard.

"Maybe it helps you sleep at night - what with all that innocent blood on your hands...
So sure, bud - it was the hippies who did all the killing in Vietnam...
Feel better?"

If a murderer walks into you home and holds a gun to your and your families head, and you pull a gun out and hold it to his head. Then a hippy comes in and tackles you, takes your gun, and runs out (all in the name of peace). The murderer then kills you and your family. Who is at fault? Is not the hippy at fault just as much as the murderer? Yet you say it is your fault, for using a gun to try and defend yourself.

In Vietnam millions of innocent men, women, and children were slaughtered. Why? Because evil overtook them. So evil is to blame, but we have to ask ourselves, why did evil overtake them? The answer is we were not there to protect them, whats worse is we promised to protect them. Why were we not there to protect them? Because lefties demanded we leave.

We have a similar situation in Iraq, nevermind that if we lose in Iraq, we will be seen as weak. And the moderate muslims will not trust us, and thus they will not fight the jihadis because the jihadis will slaughter them. Thus the jihadis take over the middle east and who knows where it goes from there. Let's forget that, if we leave Iraq how many innocents will be killed? Why will they be killed? because we wont be there to protect them. Why won't we be there to protect them? Because you demanded we pull out.
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