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Thursday, June 21, 2007
Victor Davis Hanson :: Townhall.com Columnist
More Middle East Madness
by Victor Davis Hanson
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"The Palestinian people will never forgive the Hamas gangs for looting the home of the Palestinian people's great leader, Yasser Arafat." So Palestinian Authority spokesman Abdel Rahman recently exclaimed. "This crime will remain a stain of disgrace on the forehead of Hamas and its despicable gangs."

Looting? Crime? Despicable gangs?

Excuse me. For years, Palestinian Authority-sanctioned gangs shot and tortured dissidents, glorified suicide bombing against Israel and in general thwarted any hopes of various "peace processes."

Of course, this kind of behavior isn't limited to the Palestinian territories but is spread across the Middle East. The soon-to-be-nuclear theocracy in Iran is grotesque. Iraqis continue to discover innovative ways to extinguish each other. Syria assassinates democratic reformers in Lebanon. ABC News now reports that new teams of al-Qaida and Taliban suicide bombers have been ordered to the United States and Europe from Afghanistan.

Here's why much of the region is so unhinged - and it's not because of our policy in Palestine or our efforts in Afghanistan and Iraq.

First, thanks to Western inventions and Chinese manufactured goods, Middle Easterners can now access the non-Muslim world cheaply and vicariously. To millions of Muslims, the planet appears - on the Internet, DVDs and satellite television - to be growing rich as most of their world stays poor.

Second, the Middle East either will not or cannot make the changes necessary to catch up with what they see in the rest of the world. Tribalism - loyalty only to kin rather than to society at large - impedes merit and thus progress. So does gender apartheid. Who knows how many would-be Margaret Thatchers or Sandra Day O'Connors remain veiled in the kitchen?

Religious fundamentalism translates into rote prayers in madrassas while those outside the Middle East master science and engineering. Without a transparent capitalist system - antithetical to both sharia (Muslim law) and state-run economies - initiative is never rewarded. Corruption is.

Meanwhile, mere discussion in much of the region of what is wrong can mean execution by a militia, government thug or religious vigilante.

So, Middle Easterners are left with the old frustration of wanting the good life of Western society but lacking either the ability or willingness to change the status quo to get it.

Instead, we get monotonous scapegoating. Blaming America or Israel - "Those sneaky Jews did it!" - has become a regional pastime.

And after the multifarious failures of Yasser Arafat, the Assads in Syria, Muammar Gaddafi, Gamal Abdel Nasser, Saddam Hussein and other corrupt autocrats, many have, predictably, retreated to fundamentalist extremism. Almost daily, some fundamentalist claims that the killing of Westerners is justified - because of a cartoon, a Papal paragraph or, most recently, British knighthood awarded to novelist Salman Rushdie. The terrorism of Osama bin Laden, Hamas, Hezbollah and the Taliban is as much about nihilist rage as it is about blackmailing Western governments to grant concessions.

Meanwhile, millions of others simply flee the mess, immigrating to either Europe or the United States.

These reactions to failure often lead to circumstances that can defy logic.

The poor terrorists of Arafat's old party, Fatah, seem to shriek that they have been out-terrorized by Hamas, and desperately con more Western aid to make up for what has been squandered or stolen.

Muslims flock to Europe to enjoy a level of freedom and opportunity long denied at home. But no sooner have many arrived than they castigate their adopted continent as decadent. The ungracious prefer intolerant sharia - denying to their own the very freedom of choice that was given to them by others.

Our response in America to this perennial Middle East temper tantrum?

In the last 20 years, we've sent billions in aid to the Arab world. We've saved Muslims from Bosnia to Kuwait. We've removed dangerous thugs in Afghanistan and Iraq, fostering democracies in their place. We've opened our borders to immigrants from the Middle East. We've paid billions of dollars in inflated oil prices. All the while, many in the West have wrongly blamed themselves for the conditions in the Middle East.

It's past time for Middle Easterners to fix their own self-inflicted mess. In the meantime, the U.S. and its allies should help as we can - but first protect ourselves from them as we must.

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About The Author
Victor Davis Hanson is a classicist and historian at the Hoover Institution, Stanford University, and a recipient of the 2007 National Humanities Medal.

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The last paragraph says it all
"It's past time for Middle Easterners to fix their own self-inflicted mess. In the meantime, the U.S. and its allies should help as we can - but first protect ourselves from them as we must.


In 'palestine' we need to get/keep out of the way. Let them fix their own mess. They made it.

And when they stop acting like rotten 2 year olds - and want to become adults with responsibilities - then, maybe we can talk.

No aid, no weapons and no discussions without responsibilities.

Translation: What Would Israel Do?
In the face of daily (if not hourly) threats to their existence, Israel is living proof of the success of Hansen's model for national security.

Israel has wisely walked the line between grace in the face of attack and throwing the hammer down on Islamic extremists. Perhaps we can get Olmert and friends to teach anti-terrorism 101 to Harry "no questions asked" Reid and Johnny "run for the hills" Murtha.


No to Two States

Excellent Article

It misses the story of the moderate Muslim who remains silent for fear, but the issues are correctly presented.

A one state policy, under the democratic structure and institutions Israel has established is a better solution than the two state solution. The Palestinians just don't know where to start. The Iraqi's are demonstrating the same lack of experience.

Of course the problem for Israel is they would soon become a minority in their own country.

Where is the Arab Ghandi or King? Probably hididng.


Say it ain't so
Thus far, the Saudi government has only been worried about fighting jihadists operating within the kingdom. In fact, there is evidence to suggest the Saudis have been redirecting jihadists toward Iraq as part of domestic counterterrorism efforts ... Similarly, jihadist traffic flows back and forth between Saudi Arabia and Iraq due to the common Wahhabi sect shared by the jihadists and many Saudis.

Wahaudi — the Wahhabi/Saudi watch
http://wahaudi.blogspot.com

The question was asked . . .
"Where is the Arab Ghandi or King?"

He was beheaded as an Apostate.

Victor Davis Hansen is a brilliant historian, but it is clear from this essay that he too fails to understand the Source and Sustenance of the Global Jihad.

It is true that a variety of factors may be the actual final stimulus that pushes a person to physically carry out a terrorist act, but those factors are not unique to "Middle Easterners."

If a lack of technological, legal, or economic development and opportunity were the causes of terrorism, why is it (nearly) only Muslims engage in it? And why is it that this "radicalization" of the Religionists of Peace occurs around the world? What is the common denominator?

It is the word of Allah and the example of his apostle Mohammed. Their "sacred" texts state in part:

". . . the Messenger of Allah . . . would say: 'Fight in the name of Allah and in the way of Allah. Fight against those who disbelieve in Allah. Make a holy war . . . . When you meet your enemies who are polytheists, invite them to three courses of action. . . . Invite them to (accept) Islam. . . . If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. . . . If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them . . .'" (Muslim Book 019, Number 4294).

"...fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war) . . . " (Qur’an 9:5).

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued" (Qur'an 9:29).

". . . fight them [Unbelievers] on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere . . . " (Qur'an 8:38, 39).

"O ye who believe! fight the unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you: and know that Allah is with those who fear Him" (Qur'an 9:123).

"Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you." (Qur'an 2:216).

"Allah's Apostle said: 'I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle . . . '" (Bukhari Volume 1, Book 2, Number 24).

“A man came to Allah’s Apostle and said, ‘Instruct me as to such a deed as equals Jihad in reward.’ He replied, ‘I do not find such a deed’” (Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 44).

"Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): 'I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them'" (Qur'an 8:12).

“Allah’s Apostle said, ‘I have been made victorious with terror. The treasures of the world were brought to me and put in my hand’” (Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 220).

History? What history?
It says here that Mr. Hanson has something to do with teaching history. Pretty amazing drivel, for someone teaching history. So this "article" is supposed to leave you with the conclusion that, God and USA, working together with Gods' friends in Israel, handing out Billions to orphans and widows throughout the middle east, is not being treated too well by those ungrateful brown people. All we do is steal their oil, impose "democratic leaders" who will facilitate the aformentioned oil stealing, arm and train Bin Ladin to teach those Russians a lesson in democracy in Afghanistan. Sell arms to the people who took over from our puppet the Shah or Iran, so that we can arm rebels in Nicaragua.

Our latest outrage in this mess is a large number of mercenaries from Blackwater and other heavily armed Christian soldiers who can kill just for fun and target practice.

Yes Mr. Hanson, just keep repeating to yourself how our CIA and the Mossad, are working hand in glove to make the Middle East a friendly place. Do it in front of a mirror and use a gold watch on a chain.

Keep repeating, dont stop.

I love it!

excellent
Excellent article as always.
Hanson even came out with a new word and a new verb: out-terrorize.
Can you imagine Hirsi Ali behind a veil?


Vic
Since you are such a supreme human being, my wish for you is that you go to Gaza to help the poor unfortunates. The world would end up being a better place if you were in Gaza right at this moment.


Hey Vic
can I have some of what you are smokin? Seems to detatch you from reality. Are you saying that we should not protect ourselves from the "brown people"? [your quote, not mine]. They HAVE made a mess there. A terrible mess. And when it blows up[no pun intended] in their faces it the fault of the West. We are so tired of same old same old.

Evil Unrecognized
Until we can recognize the Muslim religion as an evil that will not go away, we will be beset by hand wringing and searching for a reason. There is no reason for Muslim violence and hatred, except irrationality. We must destroy it before it destroys us.

"Moderate" Muslims? An Oxymoron
Islam, by its very nature, allows no moderation. The rules of Shariah are very specific and one only has to look to Europe to see what's happening when Islam and democracy and capitalism meet. Democracy loses every time.

Stealing Their Oil?
Nutbags like Vic claim the US "steals" oil from the Middle East. Stealing would be a US military operation that captures the Saudi oil fields and gives Americans 20 cent a gallon gas and a big tax cut via taxes on our new oil exports. Instead, the West pays Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, etc. a half a trillion dollars a year for this oil.

When oil costs the Arabs about $3 a barrel to produce and the Arabs sell it for $60+ dollars a barrel, we're not exactly taking advantage of them.

Vic, I wish we would steal their oil, free their women, deport them from our countries, and drop a few nukes on their "holiest" cities for good measure. Then, and sadly, only then, will they learn that their violence and resentment have lasting consequences.

Excerpts from a communique' from
Al-Qaida-Palestine Frontier Jihad Brigades

source: http://www.globalterroralert.com

2. "We wash our hands of and stand opposed to anyone who rules other than Allah...We believe that democracy is an infidel-based concept which strives towards glorifying humans and making them into deities. Democracy has no connection to Shariah laws...we believe that the contemporary regimes found today in Muslim countries under so-called constitutions are to be considered infidel regimes...All Muslims who are members of those assemblies are to be considered apostates because being a representative in this type of assembly is essentially accepting the infidel national constitution of that country."

Of course, it isn't PC to say so, and the MSM multiculturalists are incapable of judging it correctly, but THE problem is Islam, based as it is on the psychotic ravings of a self-exalting 7th century anti-semitic thief, liar, and murderer named Mohammad. Repudiate Mohammad and his dictated screed, the Qur'an, a.k.a. Mein Kampf in Arabic and using religious imagery, and the middle east MIGHT have a chance for peace.

In response to Vic
"Our latest outrage in this mess is a large number of mercenaries from Blackwater and other heavily armed Christian soldiers who can kill just for fun and target practice."

I've been to Iraq twice (OIF1 and OIF3) and am now deployed to Afghanistan with the 36th Engineer Brigade out of Fort Hood, TX.
Tell me YOUR personal experience in Iraq? If the answer is 'none', then you cannot possibly know whereof you speak. And the falsity of your statements demonstrates your substitution of ideological zeal for knowledge.

Second response to Vic
How many times have I heard liberal/progressives state that democracy in the Middle East is 'hopeless' and the President Bush is a fool for trying?
Now THAT is an example of denigrating brown people. Since they are Iraqis, they can't possibly value or understand democracy? Since they are just brown people, they must be puppets and bumbling, ignorant victims of the incomparably more intelligent and clever white man? This seems to sum up the liberal/progressive view of those brown people.

Neighbor, I've met, known and worked closely with scores of Iraqis. Don't think for one MOMENT that just because iraqis aren't white like you, they can't understand or value democracy. Don't think for one MOMENT that they are not capable of weighing alternatives and making decisions that are perfectly rational according to their own values.

It is a distinct sign of bigotry and racism to paint everyone of a particular group with the same brush.

By the bye, I note that you could make no effort to dispute any of Mr. Hanson's claims about the Middle East, so you resorted to strawman talk of "God and the USA". The intellectual poverty of your position is only too apparent in your style of 'debate'.

Pray For Internal War
Well as I see it the best outcome for the entire world is for ALL the Shia and Sunni followers of the "Religion of Peace" to have a glorious regionwide war of attrition amongst themselves - a 21st century Iran-Iraq war ranging from Morocco to Djakarta. My fervent hope is they would kill each other off in such massive numbers the bloated unburied dead would spur regional cholera epidemics and kill even more of them. (Basically so we in the West don't have to kill them ourselves.)

The problem is Islam is incompatible with sanity much less democracy or modernism.

In response to Bob
I find it interesting that those who claim that Christianity is an unmitigated drag on human development invariably refuse to contrast the development of predominently-Christian nations vs. Muslim ones.
I mean, our society is the RESULT of hundreds of years of Christian majority. But they never wonder why we don't subscribe to 'honor killings' of our young women, why homosexuals don't have to flee our country in fear of their lives like Palestinian Arab gays have to do (they go to Israel for refuge, of all places; look it up).

By the bye, I cannot agree with your statement that "when Islam and democracy and capitalism meet(,) Democracy loses every time". This is demonstrably true on a state or national level; it is not true on a personal level. I met many people in iraq that demonstrated great understanding of democratic principles, and earnestly desire and even risk their lives to bring it about.
There is no denying the overall reality... but let's be careful not to paint any group as a faceless, subhuman mass of utter homogeneity.

Vic
Yes, we trained Osama bin Laden to fight the Russians in Afghanistan, and it blew up in our face.

But we aren't the only ones this sort of thing happened to. Leftists allied themselves with Muslims in Iran in order to evict the Shah, and what happened? Once the Shah was out, the Muslims elbowed the leftists aside and took all power for themselves. They then butchered the leftists.

Now we come to the interesting part. The U.S. knows perfectly well that bin Laden is an enemy, but leftists cannot figure out that Muslims are their enemy and so they keep allying themselves with Muslims. How dumb can you get?

In response to Richard
"Well as I see it the best outcome for the entire world is for ALL the Shia and Sunni followers of the "Religion of Peace" to have a glorious regionwide war of attrition amongst themselves - a 21st century Iran-Iraq war ranging from Morocco to Djakarta. My fervent hope is they would kill each other off in such massive numbers the bloated unburied dead would spur regional cholera epidemics and kill even more of them. (Basically so we in the West don't have to kill them ourselves.)"

Shame on you. Those folks are human beings; as misguided as many of them are, they are NOT all murderers or evil men. I will not condone this sort of hateful talk, either from conservatives OR progressives.

YOU go over there and watch the women and kids sprawled on the ground from an IED blast where they were hanging up clothes to dry, and then tell me they ought all to die. YOU go over there and watch a man patiently teaching his young son to drive a cart and tell me they ought all to die. YOU go over there and work with the Iraqi police and tell me they're all just like Al Qaeda and ought to die.

I am so proud that the vast majority of soldiers have no use for your despicable approach.

You have every right to voice your opinion, but the one you chose to articulate is a vile, disgusting one, and I hope nobody else here subscribes to it.

Good day.

SGT Anderson
36th Engineer Brigade
Bagram AFB

Terrorism is not just a matter of
poverty or kleptocratic/tyrannical governance. As a teacher, I have had the pleasure of teaching many immigrants from Africa, specifically Nigeria, whose people are as badly off and badly governed as the citizens of any Muslim nation. While you would think that such people would be as difficult to deal with and teach as Muslims they are not; rather, they are usually my best students in the sense that while their language-skills may not be the best, they almost all are very eager to learn to overcome them, and fully embrace the American dream in much the same way as the Irish and Italians did in the early 20th-century (even better, really). What's the difference? Attitude. While Muslims' attitudes generally tend to be petulant, childish, and bullying, the Nigerians I have encountered have been kind, mature, and very respectful of the educational process. Even though Nigerians like to hang out together, they are never closed to outsiders, and they work very hard to adapt their cultural habits to American norms, in effect, trying to come up with the best of both worlds, much like the immigrants of the melting-pot era. The melting-pot was never a bad idea in terms of its being a rubric for assimilation, but that is the very reason that leftist intellectuals had to impeach and destroy it.

-Trentamj

Mr. Hanson
Someone advised me,that Mr. Hanson was a "RACIST".WAS?

what's really sad is...
...that many moons ago, the Middle East was a center for scientific and technological progress. We have always marvelled at the accomplishments of the Egyptians, and the ceativity of the Babylonians but it seems that with the advent of Islam and spread of Islam into the West, they stopped progressing at that point.

BTW, I will be posting new material at my blog on the hubris coming from Washington. Come by and check it out.

killer
Why is it racist to hate people who are sexist and homophobic? And which race are we talking about here? There are lots of ethnic groups in the Middle East, and I bet that Mr. Hanson likes the Christians among them.

'Ingenious', in science and politics
I read above: "those outside the Middle East master science and engineering."

Would that that were true. But certain of us geezers recall vividly that George Habash of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP),and Yasser Arafat of the Soviet-supported al Fatah, both studied engineering in the Middle East and put it to murderous use in their terrorism.

Hey, Trent
Before you go all misty eyed over Nigerians as a group, know that they have some toxic cultural features that do not mix well with American values. One of them is domestic violence. A friend of mine from law school married a Nigerian man, and he started smacking her around. She left and good for her. She told me that it was all condoned by his MOTHER because in their culture the man is supreme and must not be questioned, only waited on hand and foot. That does not sound like a culture that will fit in well with American values. Not to mention the fact that a lot of financial scams have been run by Nigerians (is that what you mean by how they have embraced American dreams?). It really is hard to love a GROUP.

Hey, Sgt Anderson
If SGT is really your rank, that means you are a lower ranking NCO, is that correct? The thing I love about our military is that it is composed of clear thinking educated young people like you. Your posts and your conduct make America proud. I sit here with tears in my eyes and pray for your safety, and for your mission. Keep on.

Maj, USAFR (ret)

Islam/Western Culture
Your point is exactly correct. We tend to view subjects like theology and history through our own narrow experience. It takes hard work and time well spent to put cultures like the Middle East into proper context.
The theology of the Middle East is it's history since the mid 6th century. Words describe or define things. Islam as a word describes and defines certain beliefs, those who hold those beliefs are defined by the dictates/theology of Islam. The same holds true for Christianity, or any belief system for that matter.
In todays P.C. culture, if history/theology doesn't fit into the 'let's make nice,nice' perception, then through out the historical/theological truth.
On another site there is a debate about Ms.Redding's statement that she is a Muslim and a Christian. The fact that she is an Episcopalian, Priest/?prietess?, adds even more to the scene. She made the comment that she didn't want to try and resolve the differences between the two theologies, then stated she wants to found an institute to study them. The logic completely escapes me.
The point you make in your article is very clear, Islam apparently cannot adapt itself to the modern world. It is a riggid, unyeilding theology that requires total submission or subjection to it's god. That yields a 7th century mind set and that leads to a 7th century culture. It may not be P.C., but the history and theology of the Middle East, past and present seems to allow no other conclusion.

In response to "Rand"y
I'm pinning on SSG on 1July. After too many years of comfortably vegetating...

As for whether I am really a SGT, this link is to the by-name promotion list. just click the link "To Staff Sergeant", which brings up a Word document. You'll find my name, ANDERSON JAMES EDWARD.
https://www.hrc.army.mil/site/Active/select/Hqda_Jul07.htm

Thank you for your service and your prayers, sir.

Raise your hand
if your at all surprised by the what is happening in Gaza. Victor Davis Hanson just nails it in this article.

Crude Oil is the get out of jail card
Why should the Middle East take care of it's own problems, when it can blame the failures on the West.
The Persians, Arabs, Egyptians and Syrians have used the Palestinians as their proxies in the war of attrition with Israel for so long that the Palestinians have grown fat and lazy from all the foreign aid, and became an ineffective guerrilla force against the Israelis. Its rather hard to load a Katusha rocket when your suffering from the effects of chain smoking and being overweight.
Enter Hammas fanatical, in fighting shape, well armed, disciplined, and wanting to kick some Jewish butt, and to add frosting to the cake Hammas goes and wins an election against Fatah.
So the four amigos who have supported this war of attrition with Israel for many years now are not in any particular hurry for peace especially when Hamas is winning the war of Triton with Israel on all fronts.
Not huge victories, but taking apart Israli armor bolt by bolt. Along with Hammas the four amigos hold the trump card that makes Western powers pee on themselves. Crude Oil. all OPEC has to do is think of interrupting or reducing the flow of oil and Western countries go spastic.
On the other side of the coin the four amigos have their own sets of problems with fanatical Muslims in their own country and have to walk a fine line of not appearing to be lap dogs for the West.
So the little war that Egypt's Abdul Gamal Nassar started will thrive through the millennia until some other gang overthrows Hammas when it grows fat and lazy.
You have got to understand world, that it is a machismo thing with middle Easterners, this constant swinging their testicles above their heads to prove their manhood is handed down through generations. Just look at when they protest you'll see what I mean.


Middle East is Gang Warfare on Steroids
The article today by Victor David Hanson opened my mind as to why these Islamo-Fascists act like they do. Their mind-set is toward Tribalism where loyalty to kin supercedes any thoughts of acting in ways to benefit the common good of society. Their religion has brain-washed them from earliest childhood, through mindless repetition of hate-filled prayers to the point that they are like feral animals which can never be trusted outside their own pack or herd. Bush, who I have trusted up to now just doesn't get it.

Hanson's column has convinced me that we have no business in the Middle East at this time unless we are willing to flush down billions of dollars more and sacrifice thousands more of our youth on these ungrateful, stupid people. They either cannot or will not change their 6th Century fundamentalist beliefs and join the rest of the world, so it is time to abandon this mess and let them gnash and claw at each other and stew in the juices of their own making. Guny Carroll

Tallil2long
Congratulations on the promotion. I am sure that it is well deseverved.
GMM1 USN (ret)

sandra day oconnor???

Your argument about gender discrimination in the middle east was spot on---until you mentioned sandra day o'connor. That underminded your entire argument.

sandra is not exactly a mental giant. indeed, her ridiculous decisions (like affirmative action is okay now, but maybe not in 25 years. Gosh, I didn't know the constitutionality of a law depended on how long it was on the books. silly me....)

the country is far, far better off now that she is no longer on the bench.

If you want another example than Ms. Thatcher, how about Jeanne Kilpatrick?

Muslims
when trained seals blow horns at the circus we applaud. However when barbarians only continue to refine their acts of barbarism we need all be concerned. When these societies have have the huge of amounts of cash windfalls access to technology and centers of learning it is beyond understanding they choose to become even more backwards in their thinking. Like all dictatorships they are so afraid of their own citizens that police states are what passes for government. Education is so scary that reported rates of 70% illiteracy is commonplace. The freedom is women is such a threat to these masculine challenged males that they employ myriad devices of torture and punishment for women who object to the slave conditions they suffer under. In order to keep their populations from closing examining the actions of these so called leaders they invent the fraud that their so called religion is under attack from the outside. They have instituted a death cult that is willing to not only die for but kill any and all they are told is attacking their religion. They further offer threats of destroying the west and turning the world into a muslim state all falling under the dictates of their twisted rule of sharia. Is there any hope that the barbarians can be turned into peaceful citizens of the world. The answer of course is proven daily by the endless assaults they engage with each other. The endless cylcle of shia vs sunni and who can tally the highest death count has endured for centuries. Now we see fatah and hamas getting into the same death contest. If the world is to enjoy a safer future it will be only after the muslims have been brought under control. However their ignorance and belligerancy towards the rest of the world seems to have placed them on a collision course for self destruction. They will one day find out that those who value life will finally put an end to those who value death. This coming war between civilizations will be fought out but dynamite belts hiding inside robes and behind masks cannot match up against the power provided by cruise missles

can't ignore our own culpability
I agree with everything Mr. Hanson says here, but, typical of conservatives, he is ignoring the fact that we are contributing to many of the problems over there.

We are supporting of the worst dictatorial regimes in the region. And because we don't want to upset the relationship we turn a blind eye to the fact that the subjects of these dictators do not enjoy the most basic freedoms. We need to be far more aggressive in urging these repressive regimes toward opening up their societies with guarantees of freedom of the press, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, etc.,. And we need to have the courage to push hard enough that we might even run the risk our breaking our relationships with them.

How can we say that we stand for freedom when we are supporting some of the most repressive regimes in the world? No one over there buys it.

The fact is, our current foreign policies are exacerbating the situation, not mollifying it. So to blame it all on the people of the Middle East seems a tad narcissistic.

Phylo out.

Salman Rushdie for President
of Iran, of course.

Where is our policy problem
First, note that folks like "Vic" and several others that write there strange views of the world here at Townhall and elsewhere are by design. They fill space with far left drivel and naive propaganda, several writing essay longer than the original columns.

Second, the question we must ask ourselves is why have we continued the failed policies of the past 50 years or more. We have to look little farther than two past Presidents, Carter and Clinton, though certainly others have failed along the way. There was some excuse during the Cold War, when enemy was the Soviet Union and international communism, but that was only an excuse. With 1.3+ billion Muslims in the world, it takes only about 25% to create a guerrilla force that is a substantial opponent. By the nature of their religion and the radicals among them peace loving moderate Muslims have a hard time being either devoted to peace with infidels or feeling safe to speak out against the jihadists.

Intellectual ferment missing the point!
The arguments made above show that Hanson is right in his analysis but folks miss the big idea that has to be part of the solution. Genocide, by so-called Western civilization (an amalgam of the globes many peoples,lead by Caucasians of many types)is not the solution, even if it is largely fueled by warring Muslims such as Hamas vs Fatah or any others who, unfortunately want to destroy infidels and then apostates, rather than vice-versa.

The only real answer is found among those who see that somehow the world needs to meld its religions into one that recognizes man as being inferior to a power of the universe greater than that found in any mortal person, or if you prefer any HSV (homo sapien variant) to be P.C.

Once this concept is merged with the idea that humankind (HSVs) live better in peace if they accept individualism vs collectivism, then those who have been forced to live in poverty under the control of despots who brandish absolute power and use fear and genocide, as needed to maintain it, can rise up and abandon the notions of extremists of any existing religion- be they Christians, Jews or Muslims, who would accept genocide of any other defined group; and massively stop paying homage to services lead by despots and/or their stooges.

If the media reports such changes, God may be pleased!

Old-fashioned bigotry
Hanson's comments sound a lot like old-fashioned bigotry to me. Blame the victims. That's what many insist on doing.

Yes, the Middle East is in a mess, but there is plenty of blame to go around. Centuries under foreign rule, whether Ottoman or European. Then a European state (Israel) planted right in the middle of the Arab world.

True, there is much to say in defense of the establishment of Israel. But it has been badly handled. In 1967 Israel should have worked for a final peace plan. It was in a position to help organize a Palestinian state. Sadly, it fought such a state for years. Even to mention its possibility was to incur Israeli wrath, charges of anti-Semitism, etc. Instead, it kept underwriting new settlements on the West Bank, obviously intending to take more and more Arab land.

The result? Israel is about the most hated nation in the world. The USA is not far behind, mainly because of our alway-pro-Israel policy no matter - financing Israel, arming Israel, supporting her in the US (constantly vetoing resolutions critical of Israel), etc. Meanwhile, Pollard and others were stealing our military secrets and passing them along to Israel. Real reliable ally? The Palestinians become so frustrated that they foolishly elect Hamas. Plenty of blame to go around, as in most such confrontations.

That's all the time I have. What we need (and have needed) is a fair resolution of that issue. There must be a viable Palestinian state
with control of its own borders, air, and water, with the Arab section of Jerusalem as its capital. Palestinians whose homes were taken or demolished etc need to be compensated. Many of the 9000 Palestinians prisoners need to be released. Etc. In exchange, the Palestinians must give up all terrorism and recognize Israel. Together, side by side, the two states could set an example for the rest of the world. Hope it's not too late. It's the only hope for a secure Israel, my Holy Land.

Hanson nailed it, mostly
The muslims have an inferiority complex that conflicts with their religious ferver and devotion. They are "the chosen", doing Gods bidding so should be reaping the rewards of their sacred pious devotion. The fact that they are not leads them to determine that those that are reaping the rewards must be getting them not from God, but from evil. They therefore conclude that the reason they are not getting rewarded is that they must first rid the world of this evil.

to Rob and thighmaster
How about we start with Saudi Arabia. The people running that country are some of the most brutal thug dictators in the world. The people of Saudi Arabia have zero freedoms. And yet they are best friends with the leaders of our country.

This is shameful our part. Where is our courage as a nation?




Phylo
"How about we start with Saudi Arabia. The people running that country are some of the most brutal thug dictators in the world"

You're nuts. They don't even rank in the top 10. I assume you have never been to Saudi Arabia. One of the reasons for so few freedoms in Saudi is that they cut a deal with the religious leaders after radicals took over the mosque of the prophet which was a disaster. The royals tried to appease the radicals. A lesson should be learned from them, but your statement is pure hyperbole.

error in previous post
meant to say the royals tried to appease the religious leaders not radicals.

Nothing New Here!
Muslims committing Murder.
Phylo babbling incoherently.

Roy
After the Six Day War Israel announced that it would negotiate a permanent with any Arab/Islamic country. What it got in return were the "Noes" - No peace, Nonegotiation, No Israel in reply.

When Israel accepted withdrawal from 98% of the lands demanded by Arafat, he refused to even talk about it.

Israel withdrew from Gaza and the West Bank to let the Palestinians have elections, set up a government in the areas, and the results were two bunches of terrorists killing each each other. I do not think stable is a word that could be associated with the Palestinians.

Hamas among other Palestinian terror groups has demanded the destruction of Israel. I somehow don't think that Hamas, the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade et al. will accept the two state solution.

Keepontryon
Did the Muslims never suffer through the turmoils of a Copernican revolution? It would seem that the "Mechanization of the World Picture" (Dijksterhuis, Oxford, 1961), so central to our (Western Civilization) paradigm of understanding and approaching the world, began with Thales (5th Century B,C.; cf. Aristotle's "Metaphysics")and painfully wound it's way through Jerusalem and mediveal Europe until it found substance and form with the likes of John Locke, Edmund Burke, pehaps culminating in the development of Exisistentialism (cf. Soren Kierkegaard) and Positivism.

Returning to the fulcrum: Western Civilization accepts that while there may or may not be a supreme being (the "Anthropic Principal" is at least very interesting!). No volume of prayer, however sincere and fervent, can change the course of the planets around the sun or move the stars of the night sky into new formations.

My admittedly cursory investigations of Islam tends to point me towards the opinion that it truly is (remains)a 7th Century anachronism steeped in brutality and barbarism.

Or, maybe, if we of the West were just more tolerant (of brutes!), these mislead but basically innocent little brown children will finally recover from their tragical anomie... Or, as Abaham Lincoln once said, "If a dog's tail is a leg, the dog still has four legs!"

I am disgusted with this Townhall forum.
After spending an hour composing a response, some glitch in the system simply erases my post as if it never existed........Crapola!

What underlies our moral cowardice?
VDH shows how he misses the point in wondering "How many would-be Margaret Thatchers or Sandra Day O'Connors remain veiled in the kitchen?" These are great examples of strong, successful women who thought it was just fine for a woman to murder her own children in utero.
As bad as the mideast terrorists are at destroying love and peace, the 20th century's best example of a strong and successful woman--Mother Theresa--observed that "abortion is the greatest destroyer of love and peace." (and you don't have to be Catholic--as I am not--to appreciate wisdom when you hear it.)

professor
for the sake of argument. If you are illerate and all around you are illerant, do you know you illerate? If the ME is locked into the 7th, 11th nor whatever period of the past but are told from the cradle that is acceptable why would they challenge this thinking when is linked to the only precious pocession, the cult that passes for a religion

jb
If the abortion issue is your greatest fear you are addressing the wrong forumn. If the wackos from the middle east destroy civilization abortion becomes a mute point. Your issue seems to be centered around personal responsibility also an important point , only you are at the worng site

Roy
Nice attempt at being smart. The UN mandated a two state solution from the onset. Israel had their act together, the Palestinians did not. From the day Israel was formed the Arab world has made war. They have absolutely no interest at all in a two state solution. They are only interested is annihalating Jews. Period. The gazillion dollars we and others have dumped into Palestine should prove that. Israel has not fought the two state solution. Quite the contrary. They devote a percentage of their taxes to that hell hole that is intent upon killing them. Palestinians are trying to build a house without a foundation then wonder why it crumbles. They really fit Einstein's definiton of insanity. Furthermore Israel has an absolute right to protect itself. There are Palestinians living in Israel, along with Arabs, and Christians. I notice though no one ever wants to mention that. I will not continue to support building a nation of racists and terrorists. the ME suffers from malignant narcissism and your buying into it out of guilt.

Kudos.

Georgetwin... amazing powers of observation, and brevity to boot.

Victor... keep writing, my friend.

Americans... be careful.

Phylo
The only thing we are guilty of in the ME is giving them an economy by buying their oil. The only thing they have other than alot of sand. The fact that they didn't use that economy wisely is not our fault...it's theirs. Does your employer tell you how to spend your paycheck? I am amazed that you buy into Saudi propaganda put out there soley to cover their behinds for keeping and controlling the wealth.

lolo
the oil sheiks are no different from mafia bosses or nancy pelosi. All three distribute favors to their friends and punish their enemies. All three equally know how to take care of no.1 and screw everyone else not partr of their circle of friends

Israel and the 98%
This tired claim that Israel offered the Palestinians 98% etc is undermined by a few facts. To begin with, the West Bank was to be cut up into cantons divided by Jews-only roads. Israel was to control Palestine's borders and Palestine was to be denied full air and water rights. Moreover, the plan was never fully presented. When the going got rough, Israel walked away, saying (as it always does) that the Palestinians were to blame etc. But then began the false propaganda barrage, which millions believed.

Since the three US delegates all were pro-Zionists (all Jewish), they naturally blamed Arafat. You'd think that the US would have been smart enough to send a delegation that was essentially neutral, willing to listen to both sides with the same degree of open-mindedness. You certainly can't expect that of Dennis Ross. And now we are continuously subjected to all sorts of Israel-first propagandists on TV and radio. The US public gradually will tired of this, especially as it begins to understand AIPAC etc influence - e. g., its urging the USA to invade Iraq, the only country outside our own where public opinion favored that attack.

Now, I'm sure some of you are wagging your heads and calling me a dirty anti-Semite. That's the usual reaction to anyone who champions the Palestinians. I champion both sides, because both sides are right. And both have been wrong. The Israelis have been stupid to keep building settlements on the West Bank. How is that justified except to bizarre Bible worshipers? (I worship God and no vague and superstitious prophecies re real estate from any book.) Palestinian terrorism has been wrong, also, though the Israeli military certainly has been guilty of lots of state terrorism. I wish that the Palestinians had followed the example of Gandhi and King instead of confronting violence with violence. Even many Israeli IDF members refuse to serve in the occupied territories because they know it is wrong. Many US Jews feel as I do. I know - they are dismissed as 'self-hating Jews'!

The only hope for Israel in the long run is a fair, negotiated peace, then living in mutual respect and prosperity with its Palestine neighbor. Despite racist nonsense, the Palestinians have been a progressive people. Decades of frustration - plus Fatah corruption - led them to vote in Hamas. Nothing but viable Palestinian state (sharply opposed for years by Israel) has a possibility of working. If one even mentioned a Palestinian state 10-15 years ago you had your head handed to you. The main obstacle to such a state has been the Israeli lobby which hasn't permitted the USA to be an effective mediator.

In sum, AIPAC and its allies are the principal enemies of Israel. Sounds strange, but it's sadly true. I hope it's not too late. I am devoutly religious and Israel is my Holy Land. I have visited there four times as a Christian pilgrim and experienced first-hand rabid Israeli prejudice - and also Palestinian hatred for Israel (and among Israeli Arabs, too). The guides would describe Palestinians like southern bigots used to speak of African-Americans. (Oh, and remember how Israel used to cozy up to apartheid South Africa?)

I want Israel to survive and prosper. But the vast Muslim world and many others are so angry with Israel and its brutal occupation and arrogance that it could be too late. If so, much of the blame is with AIPAC & Co. They are controlled by their understandable but misleading emotional ties rather than by logic and common sense. People like Lee Hamilton and Jim Baker should be sent over to help solve this problem. Many leading politicians know the score, but they have been bought off or intimidated. Read the writings of former Rep. Paul Findlay to discover 'the other side', especially his book "They Dare Speak Out". It tells how US politicians are targeted if they have the guts to challenge the AIPAC etc







Roy
Deeply religious you may be. Anti-Semitic you are as shown by the language of your post.

Killer, Phlyo
Killer
No Hanson is not a racist. I have seen him in person and he is not, end of story. Now you know whoever told you that, do not trust what they tell you. Know that they tell you lies.

Phlyo,
You probably are against the war in Iraq where we attempted to set up democracy. You are against regimes like Saudi Arabia, I presume, and think we should interfere. We have seen what happens when we get rid of a leader. In Iran we helped get rid of a wonderful pro Americn and we got the America hating Khomeini Ahmadinejad regimes instead. In Iraq we got rid of a horrid ruler and are faced with the reasons he ruled with an iron hand, except that he and his sadistic sons enjoyed the cruelty too much. We weakened the Soviet Union and got to see some of the ethnic violence that the Soviets dealt with.
So getting rid of bad rulers is bad. Supporting bad rulers is bad. Yet it is our fault? If we had success in Iraq, or Gaza, then maybe we could expand the success. But with just failure, we can't.

Islam is exactly where Christianity was 700 years after its creation. I would not mind stopping all contact with them and letting them go through the next 600 years on their own. But by then we'll be 600 years ahead of 2007. Plus, much as they hate "modern life", they have no problem using the technology that we created, such as nuclear power and missiles. The one good thing about Hitler was that he had the integrity not to use "Jewish" science. We got Einstein because of his bigotry.
(The Oppenheimer family were also Jewish and also came from Germany only earlier.) Too bad the Muslims who hate Jews so much don't swear off Jewish science. If they had any integrity they would not touch nuclear weapons. What I worry about is whether Islam is not the worship of the devil. We worship life, they worship death. We value love. They value hate. We value reason, they value confusion. We value honesty, lying is endemic and supported by their religion. We see dogs as a comfort send to us by God. They hate dogs. We value our children. They see them as their passport to their getting into paradise. We see good deeds as a passport to paradise, and the ONLY way for a Muslim to get into paradise is to kill a Jew or an infidel, each martyr gets 72 family relatives into paradise. We value peace and harmony. They value submission. We attempt to honor all peoples. They believe in color coding people by their religion and having different tax rates depending upon one's religion, and also privileges(a Muslim can ride a camel or a horse but a non Muslim can only ride a donkey or walk. A non Muslim cannot build higher than a Muslim's house, nor have a building higher than a mosque.) Hitler got his idea of colored badges on clothing from the Muslims. We got rid of slavery. They still have it. We had Moses and Abraham and Christ as leaders. they had Mohammed, a warrior, a killer, a robber, a rapist, a pedophile. Look up the battle of Khaybar in several places on Google, and look up Mohammed and pedophile.
















Correction
I rush to get my thoughts down as I have other business to attend to. So, I failed to add the words necessary to make it clear that Israel was the only nation outside the USA where public opinion strongly supported the foolish US invasion of Iraq. When Americans better understand that and other facts Israel's image will suffer and our support of Israel will diminish. That's one reason why it's urgent for Israel to work toward a fair peace and stop playing games which only serve to create more terrorists who also hate the USA. If we hadn't coddled Israel as we have 9-11 likely would never have happened. That's where avid Muslim resentment of the US first emerged.

Tallil2long
Thank you for your service from a grateful American. May god bless you and keep you safe.

MRB7420
Your post illustrates the smear all of us face if we try to present another side in the tragic Israeli-Palestinian confrontation. I'm sure you don't see this because of your own deep and disturbing prejudice which you fail to recognize. Some of us would like to follow a path that leads to peace and reconciliation. For that we get misrepresented, libeled and slandered. That shuts most people up, but others among us are ready to take the risk in the interest of humankind.

ROY
Give it a rest already! UNDERSTAND THIS.....There is nothing Israel could have done or can do to diminish the Arab's Islamofascists quest to destroy Israel. Until Muslims turn away from Mohammads teachings, Israel and the west will be in danger.

Roy
An enormous flaw in your logic. You seem to completely dismiss the fact that the Arabs attempted to wipe out Israel before any of items you blame Israel for occurred (settlements, etc). You assert cause and effect when the effect happened BEFORE the cause.

You Them There Here
It amazes me that there are still people around who ignore reality and blame the West for the troubles in the Middle East. The Arab/Muslims are mired in the seventh Century, both in culture and mentality. Until they get over their obsession with daily multi-prayer, time-consuming rituals, misogyny, and efforts to kill everyone not of their 'religion', they will never progress beyond that seventh century in anything. Those activities---except the latter two---are more properly assigned to monasteries or convents, not to daily life of the citizenry.

The West does not 'steal' oil. What a ridiculous claim. The West does, however, pay inflated prices for the commodity it needs, partly to manufacture things of importance to the elite Middle Easterners who hog the oil sale proceeds. Does the average Muslim benefit from oil sales? Of course not, at least not in proportion to the total income received. How many times do we talk about the filthy rich Sheiks and Emirs? And the poverty of the average Arab?

Islam is in need of modernization, and to such a degree as to remove all the violence, sexism, racism, and non-productive rituals inherent in the culture---and it has to be changed from within, as that is the only workable and lasting solution. Perhaps then, the Muslims can actually progress towards the 21st Century and stand on their own two feet [collectively.]

Among the first steps the US should take is the cessation of all foreign aid to Muslim Countries. Let them use their own billions of income instead of hording it. I have no problem with the continuation of our involvement in Iraq. I'd rather our armed soldiers fight the terrorists there than the citizens fight them here.

Wildwest
Were it so simple! Civilization DID NOT spring full grown from its mother's head. I find it very instructive to compare the relative contibutions of Sparta and Athens to Western Civilization.

Thank you for a thoughtful review of my post. Made me think!

It has been stated
many times by many columnists and commenters - we are not involved in a "clash of civilizations" - the Islamic Jihadists are not civilized, they are 7th century BARBARIANS. I do not understand people who think we can negotiate with barbarians. They are truly ostriches.

BTW - there are two "carol"s commenting on Townhall - I don't always agree with the other "carol", so I guess I'll have to change my screen name. sigh . . .

Roy
I was referring to the manner in which you referenced the members of the US Commission, the Israeli people, and the country of Israel as being to blame for everything that has gone wrong in the ME, and the words you used to describe them.
Your "prescription" to cure the problems in Israel, Gaza, and the West Bank would probably lead to the extinction of Israel. Again Hamas, Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade et al. will NOT accept the two state solution you propose, and have made that explicit in their speeches, and actions. How do propose to resolve that situation? Neither would Syria or Iran accept such a solution. Ahmadinejad has stated that he is working for and eagerly awaiting the destruction of Israel. Again how do propose to resolve that?
Any peace treaty would be from the Palestinian, Syrian, Iranian, and any other Islamic country point of view a "hudna," a temporary truce to give them time to build up enough strength to destroy Israel. How do you resolve that? Your solution is no solution unless and until there is a major change in the Islamic psyche of the area.

Roy
Let's make it simple for you since you seem to want to wallow in misnomer and myth instead of facts. When has Israel ever strapped on a suicide vest and walked into Gaza or the West bank and blew up innocent Palestinians? The answer is never. Just the methods these idiots use to further their cause should tell anyone with any logic, logic being the key word, what they are up to. Do you condone or fight dirty? Anyone who backs the ignorant animalistic Palestinians must. They have been given ample opportunity to get it right. Has to your so called road maps, do just that, look at a map. Geography is essential to protecting oneself. That is why you don't leave your house unlocked and wide open at night, then announce it to your neighbors. Same line of logic...prevention. Geography is also why we are in Iraq. We may not be able to spread democracy. But rest assured huge bases smack dab in the ME will go a long way towards deterrence and quite frankly retaliation, which is also a deterrent. Ask Pakistan.

Roy
As to your 98% post...pure hogwash. What part of this don't you get? The ME absolutely hate Jews in any way shape or form. They raise their children to hate Jews. Hate, hate, hate. That's all they know or care about. You wouldn't tolerate this in this country for two seconds. Why would you tolerate it from the rest of the world? I would have sympathy for Palestinians if they didn't continually cut off their nose to despite their face. If they truly wanted peace they would demonstrate peace. So far they have only demonstrated that they have absolutely no understanding or capacity for peace.

lolo
the most basic difference between Iraelis and palestians. Israelis whorship life. Palestians whorship death. That this blood-cult seems anxious to get to their perverse sexual paradise only amplifies their love of death. The shock will come on the day that those who love life will have reached the end of their patience and send those lovers of death to the destination they strive for

Thighmaster
Hi! Good question. I often wonder that. Who is going to have the courage to say "enough already!" Because we have tolerated it so long is one of the many reasons why terrorism is spreading around the world. It seems to be working for them so why change?

wildwest
In my youth I used to discount what the Bible scholars and the Bible itself had to say about them, along with what it had to say about the Israelis'. No longer. I guess we all have to grow up sometime.

Thighmaster
I agree whole heartedly. If we truly want a path to peace in the ME, a massive put down on Iran right now would be the solution. Since they seem to be behind and funding most of the problems. It would also send a very clear message to other participants. That is why it is imperative that we stay and win in Iraq and Afghanistan. As much as I would like Talli2long to come home. It seems it is always our best and brightest that takes the brunt.

In response to Roy
Israel is an island of democracy in the middle of ignorance and hatred magnified by a theological, fascist ideology. America could no more change Isreal's form of government than they could change ours because we are identical in our ethics and values.

If we don't support Israel as a democratic power in the center of this hell-hole known as the Middle East, we don't deserve to be a country known for it's love of freedom and liberty. It is vital to our economic well-being that we have an important role to play in this part of the world. Until people in this country understand how important our part in this drama really is, we will be hampered in our effort to make dramatic changes that will have positive affects on the entire world.

Interesting Statistics...
Interesting comparison of the middle east -
The Global Islamic population is approximately 1,200,000,000, or 20% of the worlds population.

They have received the following Nobel Prizes:
>
>Literature:
>1988 - Najib Mahfooz
>
>Peace:
>1978 - Mohamed Anwar El-Sadat
>1994 - Yaser Arafat:
>1990 - Elias James Corey
>1999 - Ahmed Zewa
>
>Economics:
>
>(none)
>
>Medicine:
>
>1960 - Peter Brian Medawar
>1998 - Ferid Mourad
>

**************************************************************************************************

The Global Jewish population is approximately 14,000,000, or about 0.02% of the world population.

They have received the following Nobel Prizes:
>
>Literature:
>1910 - Paul Heyse
>1927 - Henri Bergson
>1958 - Boris Pasternak
>1966 - Shmuel Yosef Agnon
>1966 - Nelly Sachs
>1976 - Saul Bellow
>1978 - Isaac Bashevis Singer
>1981 - Elias Canetti
>1987 - Joseph Brodsky
>1991 - Nadine Gordimer World
>
>Peace:
>1911 - Alfred Fried
>1911 - Tobias Michael Carel Asser
>1968 - Rene Cassin
>1973 - Henry Kissinger
>1978 - Menachem Begin
>1986 - Elie Wiesel
>1994 - Shimon Peres
>1994 - Yitzhak Rabin
>
>Physics:
>1905 - Adolph Von Baeyer
>1906 - Henri Moissan
>1907 - Albert Abraham Michelson
>1908 - Gabriel Lippmann
>1910 - Otto Wallach
>1915 - Richard Willstaetter
>1918 - Fritz Haber
>1921 - Albert Einstein
>1922 - Niels Bohr
>1925 - James Franck
>1925 - Gustav Hertz
>1943 - Gustav Stern
>1943 - George Charles de Hevesy
>1944 - Isidor Issac Rabi
>1952 - Felix Bloch
>1954 - Max Born
>1958 - Igor Tamm
>1959 - Emilio Segre
>1960 - Donald A. Glaser
>1961 - Robert Hofstadter
>1961 - Melvin Calvin
>1962 - Lev Davidovich Landau
>1962 - Max Ferdinand Perutz
>1965 - Richard Phillips Feynman
>1965 - Julian Schwinger
>1969 - Murray Gell-Mann
>1971 - Dennis Gabor
>1972 - William Howard Stein
>1973 - Brian David Josephson
>1975 - Benjamin Mottleson
>1976 - Burton Richter
>1977 - Ilya Prigogine
>1978 - Arno Allan Penzias
>1978 - Peter L. Kapitza
>1979 - Stephen Weinberg
>1979 - Sheldon Glashow
>1979 - Herbert Charles Brown
>1980 - Paul Berg
>1980 - Walter Gilbert
>1981 - Roald Hoffmann
>1982 - Aaron Klug
>1985 - Albert A. Hauptman
>1985 - Jerome Karle
>1986 - Dudley R. Herschbach
>1988 - Robert Huber
>1988 - Leon Lederman
>1988 - Melvin Schwartz
>1988 - Jack Steinberger
>1989 - Sidney Altman
>1990 - Jerome Friedman
>1992 - Rudolph Marcus
>1995 - Martin Perl
>2000 - Alan J. Heeger
>
>Economics:
>1970 - Paul Anthony Samuelson
>1971 - Simon Kuznets
>1972 - Kenneth Joseph Arrow
>1975 - Leonid Kantorovich
>1976 - Milton Friedman
>1978 - Herbert A. Simon
>1980 - Lawrence Robert Klein
>1985 - Franco Modigliani
>1987 - Robert M. Solow
>1990 - Harry Markowitz
>1990 - Merton Miller
>1992 - Gary Becker
>1993 - Robert Fogel
>
>Medicine:
>
>1908 - Elie Metchnikoff
>1908 - Paul Erlich
>1914 - Robert Barany
>1922 - Otto Meyerhof
>1930 - Karl Landsteiner
>1931 - Otto Warburg
>1936 - Otto Loewi
>1944 - Joseph Erlanger
>1944 - Herbert Spencer Gasser
>1945 - Ernst Boris Chain
>1946 - Hermann Joseph Muller
>1950 - Tadeus Reichstein
>1952 - Selman Abra ham Waksman
>1953 - Hans Krebs
>1953 - Fritz Albert Lipmann
>1958 - Joshua Lederberg
>1959 - Arthur Kornberg
>1964 - Konrad Bloch
>1965 - Francois Jacob
>1965 - Andre Lwoff
>1967 - George Wald
>1968 - Marshall W. Nirenberg
>1969 - Salvador Luria
>1970 - Julius Axelrod
>1970 - Sir Bernard Katz
>1972 - Gerald Maurice Edelman
>1975 - Howard Martin Temin
>1976 - Baruch S. Blumberg
>1977 - Roselyn Sussman Yalow
>1978 - Daniel Nathans
>1980 - Baruj Benacerraf
>1984 - Cesar Milstein
>1985 - Michael Stuart Brown
>1985 - Joseph L. Goldstein
>1986 - Stanley Cohen [& Rita Levi-Montalcini]
>1988 - Gertrude Elion
>1989 - Harold Varmus
>1991 - Erwin Neher
>1991 - Bert Sakmann
>1993 - Richard J. Roberts
>1993 - Phillip Sharp
>1994 - Alfred Gilman
>1995 - Edward B. Lewis

The Jews are not promoting brain washing the children in military training camps, teaching them how to blow themselves up and cause maximum deaths of Jews and other non-Muslims. The Jews don't hijack planes, nor kill athletes at the Olympics. The Jews don't traffic slaves, nor have leaders calling for Jihad and death to all
the Infidels.

Perhaps the world's Muslims should consider investing more in standard education and less in blaming the Jews for all their problems.

Regardless of your feelings about the crisis between Israel and the Palestinians and Arab neighbors, even if you believe there is more culpability on Israel's part, the following two sentences really say it all:
If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel

They will eat each other
There is hope for stability and a viable economy in the Middle East. There hope for peace and prosperity. There is hope for freedom and liberty. There is hope for multiculturalism and religious tolerance.

It is called Israel.

Strongly defended and secured it would eventually become a beacon of potential and a role model of sovereignty for Middle East countries to cooperate with and emulate.

One problem; the Middle East won’t let it happen.

The answer? Let those corrupt states that want to live in the Stone Age, do it. I have no problem with that. In essence, Hanson is right. Let them sort it out. I agree.

Only I’d take it much farther. While refraining from repeatedly contributing billions to the “in vogue terrorist group of the month”, the U.S. should totally commit it toIsrael and place themselves on stand-by for whatever cave dwelling thug threatens her welfare.

An inverted version of a middle aged tactic: welcome to the siege, jihadi shaheeds.

The only difference being that they will be held prisoners within themselves (destroying each other)….all the while observing Israel’s continued blossoming.

In response to Lolo...Right on!!
These people are so centered on their own misery and their own mis-guided thoughts of God that they are beyond the help of the world in general. They understand that total destruction of democracy and the infidels is the only way they will rule this world. DUH! When are we going to get this into our thick, stupid heads?
Unless you want to be sticking your butt into the air and praying 5 times a day, unless you want to have your women beaten on the streets because they do not wear the burkha or because they drive a car, or go to school, you had better decide right now today whether you want to live in a world controlled by these stupid fanatics. Because..........if you don't decide in your heart of hearts NOW, they will decide for you.

They have already shown us how weak we are because they are about to chase us out of Iraq merely because they have killed a few of our soldiers. Hell, compared to WWII, Korea, and VietNam, they have succeeded in NOTHING! In those wars 3,000 deaths were a common occurance in ONE battle. They have taken over four years to accomplish that feat!!! Wake up America, we are not a bunch of wimps are we?

Tallil2long
Thank you, Sgt., for your wonderful service!!!

In response to Wildwest
You missed my point, which was in the title, ie, whence our moral cowardice? Just in case you are wondering why the liberals in the west seem to be fighting against our own efforts to defend our civilization: Might it just be the knowledge that we are really no better?

Call this natural law what you will: "What goes around comes around" or "God's justice" or "the law of karma", it's really elementary, my dear Wildwest.

As long as you continue to pigeonhole abortion and other domestic life and death issues as "social issues" that are unrelated to the life and death issues you prefer to dwell on,
you will continue to miss the point.

Roy
What is a "fair peace" with people who do not recognize your right to exist?

Try looking at the real history of the lands that are now Israel, Jordan, and since Palestine is not a nation, what do you call it.

It is the parent "nations" of the "Palestinians" that keep them as refugees, not the Israelis. The Arabs living in Israel were offered citizenship.


Carter Our Greatest Pres
The following is from the J Post.

We just don't get it. The Left in America is screaming to high heaven that the mess we are in in Iraq and the war on terrorism has been caused by the right-wing and that George W. Bush, the so-called "dim-witted cowboy," has created the entire mess.

The truth is the entire nightmare can be traced back to the liberal democratic policies of the leftist Jimmy Carter, who created a firestorm that destabilized our greatest ally in the Muslim world, the shah of Iran, in favor of a religious fanatic, the ayatollah Khomeini.

Carter viewed Khomeini as more of a religious holy man in a grassroots revolution than a founding father of modern terrorism. Carter's ambassador to the UN, Andrew Young, said "Khomeini will eventually be hailed as a saint." Carter's Iranian ambassador, William Sullivan, said, "Khomeini is a Gandhi-like figure." Carter adviser James Bill proclaimed in a Newsweek interview on February 12, 1979 that Khomeini was not a mad mujahid, but a man of "impeccable integrity and honesty."

The shah was terrified of Carter. He told his personal confidant, "Who knows what sort of calamity he [Carter] may unleash on the world?"

Let's look at the results of Carter's misguided liberal policies: the Islamic Revolution in Iran; the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan (Carter's response was to boycott the 1980 Moscow Olympics); the birth of Osama bin Laden's terrorist organization; the Iran-Iraq War, which cost the lives of millions dead and wounded; and yes, the present war on terrorism and the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.




BG
that jimmy continuies to be a disgrace shows that only the good die young. Any fool that idolizes arafat, cozies up to Kim dong mentally ill, chavez, castro, mugabe and other assorted thugs shows a total dis-regard for humanity. That he has always been a shill for the oil sheiks who have rewarded him with millions shows what a disgraze he is. Now he sings the virtues of hamas. When you think the old fool can't become any more ridiculous shows that even jimmy can always sink to new depths of deparvity. I always ask when ever the old fool makes the news when is this pathetic idiot going to lay down and die and quit being an embarrassment to mankind. For me this afternoon couldn't be too soon

Roy doesn't know the middle east
Roy wrote: "True, there is much to say in defense of the establishment of Israel. But it has been badly handled. In 1967 Israel should have worked for a final peace plan. It was in a position to help organize a Palestinian state. Sadly, it fought such a state for years. Even to mention its possibility was to incur Israeli wrath, charges of anti-Semitism, etc. Instead, it kept underwriting new settlements on the West Bank, obviously intending to take more and more Arab land.

The result? Israel is about the most hated nation in the world."

Your position is simply insupportable.

Israel has been hated by the same people who hater her now, at pretty much the same intensity, since before she was a nation. You'd only have to read a little objective history of the region from the 1930s and 1940s to know this; clearly, you have not. Ignorance is curable, and I suggest you seek the cure before embarrassing yourself again.

Israel has opposed a Palestinian state because they know such a state is not the goal of the Palestinians. They know this because they live in the region (unlike you), and they're aware of what Arabic-speaking people say to each other in Arabic language. Even while using the language of diplomacy for the Western press, the Palestinians -- no, make that the entire Arabic world -- calls for the utter destruction of Israel in their own, Arabic-language publications. They have been calling for the destruction of Israel, non-stop, without much variation, since BEFORE the war of Isaeli independence in 1947.

That it's the western, English posturing that's false, and not the local, Arabic posturing, is demonstrated by the behavior of Palestinians every time they've received concessions from Israel. This has happened several times, and not just beginning in 1967, either; the same dichotemy of declaration occurred in 1948 and in 1956. Whenever they get a concession, they immediately use it to attack Israeli citizens. Syria gets the Golan Heights? There are artillery batteries there within weeks. Palestinians get Gaza? There are camps housing armed invaders within weeks, and incursions across Israel's southern border.

The attack of surrounding Arabic nations in 1947 was accompanied by declarations that the Jews should be pushed into the sea, and killed wholesale. The same was said during the 1956 war, the 1967 war, the 1973 war, and by activists in the region ever since. Can you think of a single reason why Israel should NOT take this seriously?

Roy, the Palestinians don't want the West Bank back; they want the entire land area of Palestine. And not because it's "their land". It never was their land. They want it because they hate the Jews.

incognito, you need to calm down...
First of all, townhall only deletes posts they feel are deeply offensive. Disagreement is tolerated much more here than on many political blogs I've visited.

Now, regarding your take on the state of Israel: Western society did not establish the state of Israel. Israeli citizens who lived in Palestine entreated the UN to establish the state of Israel (they were British subjects at the time.) After much discussion and negotiation, the UN produced a compromise plan that created two states in the region we now call Palestine, one Jewish, one Muslim.

The Arabic nations surrounding Israel openly declared their intent to destroy the Jewish state immediately, so the Israelis attempted to arm themselves for defense. Nobody expected the state of Irael to survive; after all, the combined Arabic nations were alleged to have a combined army numbering in the millions.

But it turned out that the surrounding nations had no central command, no training, and no strategy, and when a cease-fire was called in 1948, the Jewish state had occupied the territory now considered Israel, whereas Syria claimed ownership of the Golan Heights, Jordan claimed the West Bank, and Egypt claimed ownership of Gaza.

Tellingly, no Palestinian ever called for the liberation of Gaza, the Golan, or the West Bank from their occupation armies until they were lost to Israel in 1967.

The Palestinians have not been on Palestinian soil since antiquity, as you've apparently been told. The area was pretty much vacant until the late 19th century, when Zionist settlers started buying land from Turkish overlords and Bedoin sheiks, and made the area productive; most of the Palestinian Arabs who were displaced by the wars in 1947, 1956, or 1967 were families who moved into the region AFTER the Zionist settlers, once the Zionists had created an economy.

Muslim backwardness
Hanson does a good job of explaining the Middle East's failure to keep pace with the technology of the rest of the world.

The side he leaves unaddressed is how they remain backward in the realm of human relations.

Arabs adhere to a strict caste system. Males are superior to females, older ones are superior to younger ones.

The father is the head of the family and his oldest son next in line, regardless of ability or achievement. Women and children are considered to be property of the men.

Such a system rewards or punishes based on birthright and leaves no hope for social advancement by hard work, ethic, ability, intelligence, wisdom, or selflessness.

The key words here are "no hope". "No hope" is defined as "desperation", and desperation is at the heart of nearly all suicides.

What better way to redeem a desperate life than to end it in a suicide that will serve your god (Allah) and will raise your stature in the minds of your "superiors" in a manner that you never could have achieved by anything you accomplished in life?

Muslims worship death because their culture makes it inevitable. The same culture that stunts their societal growth.

Wiseone
The only way to get to heaven in the Islam religion is to kill.

It is the cultural tradition of the Middle East to worship death as in the culture of Egypt which built its biggest monuments to death, the pyramids, and the people of Syria were sacrificing their children way before Mohammed ever showed up. Basically not much has changed.

Look up Allah as the moon God and you'll find out how little has changed. I believe Mohammed brought them literacy, but only of the Koran and the Hadith.










by the ocean
does that mean when muslims, those followers of the cult of peace, kill fellow muslims, also followers of the cult of peace get to enjoy their perverse sexual paradise.

Wiseone
Sorry. My omission. It has to be either Jew, an Infidel, or an unbeliever. I guess there is some room re the unbeliever if one believes that the Muslim is not following the Law properly, thereby indicating a lack of belief in the Proper Islam.
Therefore killing Ayaan or Rushdie would do it, plus most of the voices and the female voices for moderate Islam that we hear. I wonder if there has to be a fatwah. Maybe a Muslim can answer. Maybe I'll find an answer on Google.






lolo, gunny etc
I ask myself: why am I wasting my time trying to present a reasonable case to people who have swallowed propaganda for years? The efforts to demonize the Palestinians certainly have been successful, though I'm amazed at how many people I know who quietly have been alienated by Israel's policies.

Just a few comments.

(1) No. Israelis haven't strapped bombs on themselves etc. They have used planes, tankss, cluster bombs, etc. - most American-made - to kill Palestinians (and Lebanese) at several times the number of Israeli killed. Should we arm both sides and then let them have an even battlefield?

(2) Hm! How democratic is Israel? 40 years of harsh occupation, contrary to international law. And all the Orthodox blue laws that stop buses, television, etc. on the Sabbath. No Christian outreach (evangelism) permitted. And would we call the USA a democracy if it only permitted immigrants who were Christians? We could go on. But you get the point. Democracy for Orthodox Jews, perhaps, but hardly for those who are discriminated against on ethnic or religious grounds.

(3) The post which listed all the Jewish winners of Nobel prizes etc - what was its point? To prove that the Jews are a superior people. I presume Hitler's Germany produced similar lists of the achievements of their master race.

(4) The sort of intolerance toward Islam apparent in many posts confirms the deep religious prejudice (and ignorance) of many posters. Why not read some of Karen Armstrong's writings? We need to have more understanding, less bigotry.

(5) Gosh, the Hebrew scriptures are full of mass muder, even genocide. Consider Joshua slaughtering every inhabitant in Jericho, Ai, etc. And what about Saul's slaughter of the Amalekites - every one of them. And the crowds cheering David - Saul kills thousands, David kills tens of thousands, or whatever. If we judge Judaism by such stories from its scriptures it certainly would appear to be a religion of violence. Those ancient Hebrew icons seem to have been mass killers. But I don't judge Judaism by its questionable history. This is not to mention the terrorism directed against the British and Palestinians by the Israelis in modern times.

(6) The solution? Talk and talk and talk, instead of demonizing and speaking arrogantly. Do you think that that loudmouth head of Iran wants nuclear war? I know you see such talk as appeasement, but I call it common sense. What do the Proverbs say: "A soft answer turneth away wrath." Basis for negotiation: we will recognize Israel if you will encourage a viable Palestinian state, not one that is really under the thumb of Israel, an Israeli puppet. Dignity and humiliation are major components of the problem. You don't gain peace and understanding when you treat subject people like dirt. I was in Israel four times and saw firsthand the humiliation of Palestinians.

Wow - a lot more to add, but must get to other things. The USA is in a position to bring peace and justice, if it's not already too late, but not as long as AIPAC and allies run our ME policy. It's that neocon crowd, including Israel-firsters like Perle, Feith and Abrams, that got us into the present mess. America must be humbler instead of thinking it should run the world.

I am not left-wing. I try to vote Republican, the party of my family since 1856! Sadly, both parties have been bought or intimidated by those whose main concern is Israel. Frankly, sometimes I wonder about their patriotism, but I'm hesitant to slander them without knowing them better. I am annoyed by this dual-citizenship thing. What sort of patriotism is that? And too many Israel-firsters throw around 'anti-Semitic' as soon as anyone questions our biased policy in favor of Israel. One of my closest friends is a rabbi who, by the way, agrees with me on this question more than with most of the posters here. I presume he must be anti-Semitic, too?

Roy
it is obvious your mind is closed to many of the comments. What other group is people is setting off bombs in their own schools, mosques and public buildings. What group of people savages their enemies in the most barbaric manner imaginable prior to finally killing them. Which group of people is so anti-knowledge that they have illiteracy rates of 70%. Is there any country where muslims make up the majority of the population that they don't persecute any minorities that still reside there. Perhaps you can enlighten the rest of us muslim haters and bigots exactly what is the least bit redeeming about any aspect of muslim life

Thank you, inkling_revival
for the necessary history lesson!

I'd wondered why the Arab world could not have been a tad more accomodating to the Jews who escaped Hitler's ovens and simply wanted a safe place to live, like their historic homeland.

Why would the Arabs be so unwelcoming? I expect that much of it has to do with the fact that Mohammad hated the Jews because they rejected him as a false prophet, and most Arabs are Mohammadans. He never forgave them this insult, and neither have his spiritual heirs in the Arab world. Shedding "infidel" and "apostate" blood, especially Jewish blood, is how Mohammad got his rocks off when he wasn't ravaging women that became his as spoils of war. Why should his true disciples be any different?

Roy
You guys better have a back up plan. The reason is your whole existence and meaning to life is wrapped up in hating Israel. But that situation might revolve itself. Peace might break out, or Israel may get nuked, and much to Ahmadinejad's surprise Mohammed won't show up to clean up the nuclear fallout and nor will his beloved 7th century imam show up.
What is your meaning of life going to be if Israel is no longer an issue? Are you going to switch to hating Jews in America? What are your plans? Whom are you planning on hating next?

Israel wants peace. They have things to do, like curing cancer and all other diseases.






Bytheocean
"I believe Mohammed brought them literacy," you wrote. Not quite. Mohammad never learned to read or write. Instead he dictated the Qur'an to scribes over some 35 years.

Naturally, no one else "saw" or "heard" what Mohammad was allegedly told by the angel Gabriel. Nor does it bother devout Muslims that Mohammad's Gabiel flatly contradicts the angel Gabriel whose words are recorded in the Gospel of Luke. This could only mean that the author of Luke embellished the infancy narrative, that is, he lied. Isn't it obvious?

Lex
Thank you for the heads up. Sorry I have no opinions about the Gospel of Luke nor do I know much about the Archangel Gabriel, messenger Angel. Knowing what you have told me I would rephrase what I said to say that Mohammed valued literacy, something he admired about the Jews, and he passed this on to the people who converted to Islam.

An interesting historical fact that had eluded me up to this month is that whereas Europe went through a Dark Ages, the Jews didn't, and they maintained their literacy and scholarship and in fact many of their most important tracts were written during the "Dark Ages".




Poor Vic
Vic is so consumed by his hatred for America and Americans that he can't think straight.

Blackwater and other "mercenaries" are used as support, not combat, troops. Sure, they carry weapons for self defense. Who wouldn't?

The old days of mercenary infantry are gone. A modern infantry squad needs air and artillery support. The US Army stays in-house for that.

Lex
By the way. I looked up Gabriel on Google and one website said he didn't carry out a task properly and was removed from his position for awhile and then later his position was restored. I wonder what it was he did not do properly, provoking the wrath of God.


Roy
No Christian outreach allowed in Israel??? Really!!! So why is the world headquarters of Baha'i in Israel, and not, say, tolerant, open Egypt. And all Christian holy sites are maintained by Israel, if they are under Israeli control. You must have missed the report about the desecration of holy sites in Bethlehem by the tolerant Palestinians. Ask the Copts about Egyptian tolerance.

As to the Palestinian state problem, the Egyptians and Jordanians could have implemented the UN resolution establishing such a state in 1948. They did not. Arafat was an Egyptian and KGB agent, not a "Palestinian".

The problem is not Israel; it's Islam.


ROY
Roy has shown himself to be an Israel hater and it appears that no amount of logic and historical facts are of any signifacance to him. It is akin to a son who publicly maligns his mom, all the while protesting his love for her. Roy, if you sound like an anti-semite and act like an anti-semite.......you are an anti-semite!

Bytheocean writes, of the execrable ....
.... Vic, that "Since (he is) such a supreme human being, (our) wish for (him) is that (he goes) to the Gaza strip to assist the (psychopathologically-hesperophobic islamanazis there to project their psychopathology upon one another) -- and that the world would end up being a better place if (Vic was) in Gaza right (now)!"

Took the words from me mouth.

And what a comedian the writer of the caption for the accompanying pic turns out to be, who suggests that Sir Salman Rushdie's very ordinary novel, the Satanic Verses, "outraged muslims worldwide."

Insane rage (accompanied by islamanazism's text-book ordained raping, looting, pillaging, sexual mutilation and mass murder) was the definitive marker of that dreadful Baal-descended ultimate heresy from the moment its insane pedophile pirate founding false fuhrer first kicked it into gear and has ever since marked its spread around the world.

Bytheocean
About Gabriel (trying to see it from a devout Muslim's perspective) my guess is that what stoked God's wrath is that this angel got the message all wrong when announcing the incarnation to Mary, and was consequently demoted for a time. Luke's Gospel records the "erroneous" message as follows:

1:26 Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, 27 to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. 28 And having come in, the angel said to her, “Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!” 29 But when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and considered what manner of greeting this was. 30 Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name JESUS. 32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. 33 And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.” 34 Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?” 35 And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; know therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.

It took some 6 centuries before the same angel Gabriel would allegedly reveal the Qur'an to Mohammad and state, among other propositions, that contrary to Luke's Gospel, God CAN'T have a Son, certainly not one who is fully human and fully divine (See: Chalcedon, Nicea. This is what makes Christians "polytheists.") and that there's no way in hell that Allah would exalt the house of Jacob over the house of Ishmael, since in Islam Ishmael is the child of the promise made to Abraham, NOT Isaac. No child of Hagar would ever acknowledge that Sarah's son would be given an eternal dominion, at least, not as long as Mohammad had anything to say about it, and Mohammad is Allah's prophet, damnit!!

Take that, you stinking Jewish and Christian apostates and infidels!!!

Speaking of the "Dark Ages," the Irish monks are the ones who toiled away in their monasteries and "saved" western Christendom from barbarian destruction.

Sgt. A. promotes ignorance of Islam
"Shame on you. Those folks are human beings; as misguided as many of them are, they are NOT all murderers or evil men. I will not condone this sort of hateful talk, either from conservatives OR progressives."

Recognizing that Allah and his false prophet Mohammed require the faithful to convert, subdue and humiliate, and kill non-Muslims to make the world Islam is not hateful, it is necessary.

Apparently, you not only condone ignorance of Islam, you propagate it. Shame on you.

"YOU go over there and watch the women and kids sprawled on the ground from an IED blast where they were hanging up clothes to dry. . ."

The death of Muslim innocents is a great evil, but it is due to their Co-religionists of Peace and their god. Blame Mohammed.

". . . YOU go over there and watch a man patiently teaching his young son to drive a cart and tell me they ought all to die. YOU go over there and work with the Iraqi police and tell me they're all just like Al Qaeda and ought to die."

Straw men.

Some of the police do serve Jihad. So too some of the cart-driving instructors. And some of those women and children who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time undoubtedly advocate the absolute rule of Allah over all Infidel lands.

Did you mourn the innocents of Dresden? Hiroshima? Nagasaki? The South? Or would you have preferred the Republic fall?

Do you mourn the innocents of jihadist terror? 9/11, London 7/7, Madrid 3/11, Beslan, Bali, Indonesia, Somalia, Sudan (even before Darfur), Serbia, the Philippines, India, Egypt, Iraq, Israel?

Do you shed a tear for the Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, animists, pagans, and other non-Muslims persecuted, enslaved, raped, and slaughtered in their own lands because Allah demands it?

What of all the civilizations, cultures, languages, and lives destroyed by almost one and one-half millennia of Allah's malevolence? Do you weep for them at all?

Are you even aware of it?

Your good intentions and natural compassion apparently blind you to the enemy we face, and I doubt those charged with preparing you for battle told you the truth.

"I am so proud that the vast majority of soldiers have no use for your despicable approach."

His approach is to let Islam be Islam, undoubtedly so that more of our soldiers do not needlessly die for those who take Infidel blood and treasure as an fitting tribute to the supremacy of Islam and the Muslim (or don't you know this?).

"You have every right to voice your opinion, but the one you chose to articulate is a vile, disgusting one, and I hope nobody else here subscribes to it."

You have every right to voice your opinion, but the one you choose to articulate is a vile and disgusting one, for it is born of ignorance of nearly fourteen centuries of global Jihad, and -- to the extent that it "informs" and directs public policy, homeland security, and our war effort -- it prevents us from defending ourselves as effectively as we must.

Unfortunately, too many here -- nearly all our political, media, and academic leadership -- subscribe to it.

Allowing Muslims to fulfill their god's blood-lust (it must be satisfied!) against each other rather than against good-willed (if naive) Infidels seems not a bad plan at this point.

Here's a resolution . . .
". . . she is a Muslim and a Christian. . . She made the comment that she didn't want to try and resolve the differences between the two theologies, then stated she wants to found an institute to study them."

Mohammed said:

"In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary. . ." (Qur'an 5:17).

"They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them" (Qur'an 5:73).

". . . the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth" (Qur'an 9:30)!

But Jesus said, "Before Abraham was born, I AM!"

to those of you who hate Israel
If Gabriel's mistake had been with Mary he would not have been employed with Mohammed.
Yes the Irish monks restored to Christendom their lost knowledge. That doesn't mean it was lost to everyone while it was lost to them.

To all of you who hate Israel and love the poor poor poor Palestinians, and who avoid such information as Gazans seeking refuge in Israel from Gaza, you should take note that the paragon of reason and sanity and compassion Ahmadinejad("A"), as compared to the rabid Americans, you should note that he (A) in his mind has already sacrificed the Palestinians. He knows that if he takes out Israel, with the Palestinians being 6 miles away that they will be affected and when pressed on the point he said well the Palestinians would be happy to be martyred for the cause,and they will go to paradise happy to know that Israel got wiped out. That paragon of reason and historical knowledge like denying the Holocaust, he (A) when pressed about the fact that if hit, Israel would retaliate also said that he (A) is willing to sacrifice 50% of the Iranian population who would also be happy to become martyrs for the cause and of course Allah would take care of such things as radiation sickness and pollution of the land. Therefore if you are an Arabophile and if you love love love the Palestinians and if you love love love the Iranians, you should be against Ahmadinejad and against him aquiring nuclear weapons and against him using nuclear weapons and against his final solution to the Israeli problem, that is unless you hate Israel so much that you too are willing to sacrifice the Palestinians and the Iranians if only to see Israel eradicated. This is just an attempt to let a little contact with reality shine through your hatred of Israel. And if you agree with Ahmadinejad and are willing to sacrifice the Palestinians et al, then you are functionally insane which is no surprise to us on Townhall who recognize mental illness, and you should be taken away all wrapped up in white and there is a padded room waiting for you. If only. Unfortunately you are walking around and voting.













Roy
Your head is so far up your ***, that you are licking your tonsils. You have absolutely no concept of what has happened and is happening in Israel. This discussion is over because it is pointless. You use false facts, and your lack of historical knowledge is appalling. Arabs drew first blood, they get what they deserve. Get over it.

Democracy doesn't lose every time
Someone metioned this earlier. However, with all of its imperfections, no one mentioned Turkey. When you take a closer look at what Ataturk had to do to establish democracy there, one can see a possible model for other countries in the middle east.

As for blame for the Israel-Palestine problem, look no further than the Sykes-Picot(?)(1918)agreement for "partitioning" the middle east after the break up of the Ottoman empire, the rise of Zionism in Palestine (Herzl), and the persecution of Jews in Europe by the Germans in WWII.

By the way, the random partitioning can also explain the problems we're having today in Iraq. The borders drawn then put disparate groups together...the Sunnis, Shi'a, and Kurds. Same is true for Syria, Lebanon, etc.

incognito
The Romans gave it the name Palestine for the Philistines which means foreign invaders, and it was Roman territory and they gave it that name as a humiliation of the defeat of the Judeans. The Romans brought the Jews to Rome as slaves which is how Jews ended up in Europe.
After the Romans, the Ottomans had it. Palestine was not a nation of its own ever. The Ottomans sided with the wrong side, the Germans in World War I. As a result of the defeat of the Germans in World War I, the Ottoman Empire was defeated and their territories were divided. France got Lebanon. England got what is now Iran and Iraq and what is now Israel. It was then ruled by the British. The British rewarded a family they liked and that is how Jordan got created. The Saud family took over in Saudi Arabia. The British asked a British army person to decide where the border should be between Iraq and Iran. He couldn't decide so one night when he was drunk he threw a liquor bottle over his shoulder and where it landed is where the border was put. At the World War I Peace Talks, the Kurds were begging for their own state. So were the Jews. The Palestinians weren't because there were no Palestinians. Both the Kurds and the Jews were refused. Had the British agreed there would not have been the Holocaust. After WW II, the world agreed and gave the Jews their own land. Once again the Kurds asked for their own nation and were refused. Now the Kurds have been genocided by Saddam and moved out of their city Tikrit. They are still begging for their own country and the world is still refusing. They are a people with a historic land. I don't see Leftists sobbing and holding hands with the Kurds because it doesn't meet some Soviet agenda. The Kurds know how to govern themselves and have proved it. The Palestinians started to "become a People" around 1964. Palestinians were in Jordan. They fought the Jordanians and moved to Syria. They also moved to Lebanon and created a civil war there. The Syrian Palestinians are still trying to destroy Lebanon. They were in Kuwait and caused problems and were thrown out of there.
Why has the Left embraced Palestinians above all other liberation causes to weep over? Some people think that not only have the Arab countries kept them in "camps" as negotiating tool but that the UN people in charge also have no desire to do themselves out of their jobs. As it is said, more money than was used in the Marshall Plan to rejuvenate Europe after WW II has been spent on the Palestinians and lo and behold nada.
It is a simple principal that if you reward people for whining and seething and killing, what you will get more of is whining and seething and killing.
As you can see, the borders are not sacrosanct so to sob over the 1967 borders as the borders which MUST BE is STOOOOOOPID. Also the Arabs made another mistake in WWII by once again siding with the Germans which is why the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem sent Jewish children to Hitler as a gift for his birthday and Hitler had them murdered. Now maybe you are still crying over the fact that the Naziis did not win. Get over it, they lost.
The Jews bought the land. The Jews fought for the land and paid for it with blood and sweat. The Jews had the UN recognize their land. The Jews have a historical claim to the land having a unique religion and language and alphabet and history. Not many countries have such a claim to land.

The Palestinians have lately answered polls saying they wouldn't mind merging with Jordan or with Egypt should they get a state of their own.
Now that there are refugees from Gaza and since Egypt doesn't want the problem, the Egyptians are motivated to find a solution.

Frankly your argument that the Romans called the land Palestine, so that is that, tells me very little. The Romans also threw the Christians to the lions in the coliseum. The Romans at that time couldn't tell a Christian from a Jew.
The Arabs also believe Spain belongs to them. According to Muslims, the whole world belongs to them.














Mickey Mouse
Leftists can be so Left they merge with the extreme right and the same thing about extreme rightists.

Disney was allegedly an anti-Semite.

Mickey Mouse View of Foreign Policy
To summarize, the Leftists have a digital view of the universe:
Powerlessess like Mickey Mouse = good,
while powerful = bad.
Therefore USA and Israel = bad,
while "Palestinians = good.

That is the depth of their thinking, but since they are "Feelers" and not Thinkers, it makes them "feel" like they are "Thinkers", morally superior too, and compassionate. Amazing the mirror doesn't crack from the magnificence of their image.





Interesting Statistics...
Be careful MTrain with your comparisons.
Remember, in medieval times and the early Renaissance, scientists and astronomers in the West were being persecuted (Galileo, Copernicus, and others) while Arab astronomers and mathematicans were making great contributions to the body of world knowledge. Algebra, for example, is an Arabic word. The zero is a concept given to us by Babylonians (and Hindus).

Don't get me wrong. I not saying this because I'm an apologist for Arab bad behavior. I'm not. But, your "list" is only a small view of a rather large problem. And, quite frankly, it only makes your argument superficial.

Incognito
So, since Britain had control of "Palestine", they had the right to do what they wanted with it. Well, first it was promised to the Jews. Then they created Jordan. Then, the Jews petitioned the new U.N. for a partition of the remaining land so that they could have a homeland. That was granted. So, they ended up with less than 1/3 of the land they were promised. By the way, Jews had lived in the land before the modern nation of Israel. It was their passports & identity papers that read "Palestinian", not the passports or identity papers of the Arabs in the region.

The Arabs rejected the formation of a separate Arab "Palestinian" state and immediately declared war on the new nation of Israel. Guess who won. Israel won a significant amount of land in subsequent conflicts, so the idea that it is "occupied land" is ridiculous. I regret that they "returned" any of it.

The Israelis made the desert bloom, the Arabs returned it to sand and dust.

The surrounding Arab nations will not allow the Palestinians to be assimilated. They are the real cause of the refugees.

Thanks ThighMaster
Thanks for saying what I wanted to say.
Also, a question for you Incognito: Did you write that paper for a logic class? What grade did you get?

ThighMaster
Look out! The CIA is watching us!

Incognito
The Jews were Semites and lived in the Middle East. They were one of the nomad tribes that settled on the land as were the peoples or tribes wandering around the Middle East. Why are they the one tribe who has no rights in your mind compared to the 1960's bunch of nomads whom have adopted the name "Palestinian"? Genetically there is no difference between Palestinians and their neighbors and Jews and their neighbors. The Jews have a separate culture and the Palestinians don't. Yes I know the Cohens have their own genetic line.








Incognito
I don't follow you. We supported Saddam because he was against Iran then we couldn't stand it anymore and we turned on him and are trying to correct our wrongs in Iraq, which weren't wrong at the time. We supported Bin Laden because he was against the Russians in Afghanistan and he turned on us and we turned on him. We are attempting to kill him as a way of righting our wrongs in supporting him, which weren't wrong at the time. We have given huge amounts of money and arms to Fatah, which fell into Hamas' hands to try and get them a land of their own. They have made a mess out of Gaza. We are giving Fatah more money. Iran has hated us ever since Carter turned on the shah and the government still hates us, the people don't. Where do you not see that we attempt to clean up the messes we have made? Iran, China and the Soviet Union have all been behind the problems in Iraq and including Chirac's France. We are still friends with China and Russia. We may even sit down and talk to Iran not that it would do much good. Do you just want us to walk out and let Iran or Bin Laden have the oil? We have a better position geographically to take on Iran and frankly someone, perhaps an Iranian, may just assassinate Ahmadinejad. We are supporting the Saudis who while not great are at least stable, although two faced. Saudi Arabia has a lot of oil. I don't think Bush prosecuted the war properly. France has now replaced their leadership.
You want us to turn on Israel? What has Israel done to us? Even Arab leadership admits they use Israel to keep the people focused on something other than their lousy leadership. Even the Koran admits that the Jews would come back to Israel, or Zion.
Yes our military is in bad shape. Clinton cut it back to the bone thinking we had no enemies left.
Yes China is two faced and might invade Taiwan while they have us busy in Iraq.


PS Incognito
If you attempt to do what Christ did, there's a good chance you'll end up dead. Don't tell Jews to act like Christ. Christ valued his spiritual life in the life hereafter. He didn't value being alive. Jews value being alive. Radical Muslims don't value being alive. Americans value life.


BTW
BTW, Muslims are seeking a right of return to Spain since they were expelled in the 1600's or thereabouts, a few hundred years after their conquest of southern Spain. They are asking for preferential treatment for immigration and citizenship. Oddly enough, the Jews who were also expelled from Spain earlier were not mentioned.
see littlegreenfootballs.com

Also Incognito,
America does not presently have a draft. If you don't want to send your babies to war don't have them volunteer.







clarification
The word "their" refers to Muslims invasion of Spain on a jihad.

Roy writes . . . Old-fashioned nonsense
"Yes, the Middle East is in a mess, but there is plenty of blame to go around. Centuries under foreign rule, whether Ottoman or European. Then a European state (Israel) planted right in the middle of the Arab world."

It's always the Jews' fault, isn't it, Roy?

"Even to mention its possibility was to incur Israeli wrath, charges of anti-Semitism, etc."

Just as it was completely unreasonable for Israel to hesitate rewarding the people who tried to destroy it then, so it is today, right Roy?

"The Palestinians become so frustrated that they foolishly elect Hamas."

Whenever I'm really frustrated that the nation I tried to slaughter utterly shamed me I elect bloodthirsty, child-killing, sadists too.

"Plenty of blame to go around, as in most such confrontations . . . What we need (and have needed) is a fair resolution of that issue."

Here is what passes for "fair" in Roy's eyes:

"There must be a viable Palestinian state
with control of its own borders, air, and water, with the Arab section of Jerusalem as its capital. Palestinians whose homes were taken or demolished etc need to be compensated. Many of the 9000 Palestinians prisoners need to be released. Etc."

In other words, Roy defines "fair" as "reward murderers, liars, and thieves for their murdering, lying, and stealing."

"In exchange, the Palestinians must give up all terrorism and recognize Israel."

That's already been tried. Every time Israel sacrifices, Arab Muslims (not "Palestinians") displaced by Arab Muslims slaughter more innocent Israelis.

"Together, side by side, the two states could set an example for the rest of the world."

They're already an example of the effectiveness of good-will negotiations with Islam.

Incognito
Well you claim to love Jesus but don't want the situation that created him to have occurred, a Jewish kingdom, since he was descended from King David and he was Jewish.
So if you apply the same rule to other nations, the Egyptian kingdom should not have existed because it had comings and goings of people and was an empire. The Greeks and Alexander especially should not have existed because Alexander had an empire. The Romans should not have existed because they had an empire. The Normans should not have invaded Britain. The Vikings should not have invaded England. The Angles and the Saxons from the German lands should not have invaded England. Genghis Khan should not have invaded because he had an empire. He not only spread the plague but he fathered something like 60% of Europeans living today. The Jews should not have existed which means no 10 commandments, no "thou shalt not kill" no story that people should not sacrifice children on the altar which is what people did in those days, no brotherhood of man since the story of Adam and Eve came from the Old Testament, no monotheism because people worshipped lots of Gods not just one God.
There should have been no United States because Europeans should not have invaded the land of the Native Americans.
There should have been no constitution because the idea that man is created equal and "endowed by the creator with inalienable rights" was a Jewish idea. Our economy and the economy of all of our allies is based on oil but that shouldn't be. Oil is to the world economy like oxygen is to people but it is OK by you that it be held hostage by thugs who would have an infinite number of concessions needed to be met such as the whole world turning into fanatic Muslims. That would mean shariah law in the US and stonings and beheadings and beatings of women not wearing a veil over their entire body, no liquor, no pork, no music.

So in your ideal world, the world created by Incognito, you wouldn't even be living a Mennonite life since they use horses, introduced by Egypt and Rome and Genghis Khan, and they worship Christ. You would be living a life earlier than that.
There wouldn't even be an Islam world since they came in the 600's, 600 years after Christ when there were plenty of Christians and plenty of Jews and the Muslims spread their religion and created their empire by murdering and killing.

So I am trying to figure how far back you would have to go to be before it all, and it places you before Egypt, therefore before an agricultural society. So you want to be a hunter gatherer.

I saw a show that said that the story of Adam and Eve talking about the garden according to the scientists was a story about agricultural people looking fondly back on a hunter gatherer society. According to these scientists Adam and Eve lived on land that got flooded when an ice age ended, and the land is now under the waters of the Persian Gulf.
So perhaps you are wanting to go back to the Garden of Eden, along with a lot of people, before Adam and Eve became conscious. Some people think that wanting to go back to the Garden of Eden is a desire to return to one's childhood. Pre scientific age, pre matches, pre industrial age, pre enlightenment, pretty much back to the Stone Ages. I wonder if the Neanderthals would agree with you that is was so wonderful since they were wiped out.
You sound pretty depressed. Have you thought of going to a therapist?

If you could reverse the Iraq war, would you want Saddam and his sons alive and in power, where the sons would take brides of men on their wedding day and rape them and then throw them off the top of a tall building, and where they would take athletes who didn't perform according to their expectations and put them in standing caskets with nails embedded in them to pierce the non performing top athletes of Iraq, and where Saddam threw people into wood chippers and when they asked to be put in head first so they would die faster he would refuse? Or are you just saying you wish the war had been prosecuted differently and better, along with probably a majority of Americans?
American soldiers have not died for Israel. Israeli soldiers have died for Israel.










You claim to love the Us but

incognito's lies no longer ... incognito
"I have a Bible that is one hundred years old and it has a map of Palestine in it. Palestine has been in existence since the times of the Romans. After WWII, the state of Israel was created and Palestine was wiped off the map."

Rome utterly destroyed the Jewish nation. The appellation was given to the land to humiliate its former occupants.

There was no "Palestianian nation" in the sense for which you apparently wish.

"And Holy War originated in the Bible. “Do not fear them, for it is the Lord your God who fights for you.” – Deuteronomy 3:22. This is what you would call Holy War."

False.

Unlike Jihad, the war commanded of Ancient Israel was limited to a specific people at a specific time and place.

The command to ". . . kill the unbelievers wherever you find them" (Qur'an 9:5) is for all times and places to be carried out by able-bodied Muslims and their supporters until the whole world is subdued under the tyranny of Allah.

The false equivalence you make here calls into question your ability (or willingness) to address this topic truthfully.

"In fact, much of the Old Testament has to do with the Hebrews slaying innocent people to take their land because God told them to."

False. Citations, please. Be specific.

"And since the Bible came first, I believe that the Koran is a reaction to it. Heathens, infidels..."

Obviously, chronology equals causation.

Qur'an is the perfect word of Allah. Offensive warfare against non-Muslims is central to it.

Along with Hadith and Sira, Qur'an requires the conversion, subjugation and humiliation, or killing of all non-Muslims to make the world Islam.

"There was large-scale destruction of Jewish populations even before the establishment of Christianity as the state religion of the Roman Empire..."

Rome destroyed Israel over a century before it stopped using Christians as torches and chew toys.

"...Critics have faulted (new historians) for their failing to make use of available Arab sources."

Arabs never lie. Mohammed said, "War is deceit" (Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 268).

It should shock no one that nations execute policy based on their own (sometimes short-sighted) self-interest.

Neither should it surprise anyone that Israel might be reluctant to negotiate with terrorists (unlike President Bush).

Modern Israel was attacked by its neighbors repeatedly for the crime of existing as an Infidel nation on formerly Muslim-controlled soil.

Islam can never, under any circumstances tolerate land that was once under the rule of Allah belonging again to Infidels.

That is why, more than any other supposed justification you can conjure up, the Muslim world hates Israel. Just ask Hamas:

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."

"Israel, by virtue of its being Jewish and of having a Jewish population, defies Islam and the Muslims."

"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up."

"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."

"After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."

"Allah is its [Hamas'] goal, the Prophet its model, the Qur’an its Constitution, Jihad its path and death for the case of Allah its most sublime belief."

Faith in democracy misguided
"Democracy doesn't lose every time
Someone metioned this earlier. However, with all of its imperfections, no one mentioned Turkey. When you take a closer look at what Ataturk had to do to establish democracy there, one can see a possible model for other countries in the middle east."

Democracy is only a tool used by Muslims to institute Shari'a.

And Ataturk suppressed Islam by force and forbade its traditional political expression.

Are you implying we should do the same?

An outlandish denial of facts
"My research indicated that the Arabs sided with the Germans because they wanted to get rid of the British!"

That may have been a motivation. Now the British are gone. What is Islam's excuse? Is there more to this picture than meets your eye?

Yes, there is. About Jews, Islam's "sacred" texts state:

"And well ye knew those amongst you who transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath: We said to them: "Be ye apes, despised and rejected" (Qur'an 2:65).

"Allah's Apostle said, 'The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him"'" (Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 177).

". . . We were (sitting) in the mosque when the Messenger of Allah . . . came to us and said: (Let us) go to the Jews. We went out with him until we came to them. The Messenger of Allah . . . stood up and called out to them (saying): O ye assembly of Jews, accept Islam (and) you will be safe.

. . . .

"he killed their men, and distributed their women, children and properties among the Muslims, except that some of them had joined the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) who granted them security. They embraced Islam. The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) turned out all the Jews of Medlina. Banu Qainuqa' (the tribe of 'Abdullah b. Salim) and the Jews of Banu Haritha and every other Jew who was in Medina.

. . . .

"It has been narrated by 'Umar b. al-Khattib that he heard the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) say: I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslim" (Muslim Book 019, Number 4363-4366).

And Allah calls Mohammed a "beautiful pattern of conduct." He is considered the "Ideal Man."

"That makes sense if you are capable of honestly trying to look at history from the others' perspective."

You define "honestly trying to look at history from the others' perspective" to mean that you should look at history from the opposite perspective. With regard to Islam, that is a suicidally false assumption to make.

"The idea that because there was no "state" means that you can come in and do whatever you want is false."

There was no "Palestinian nation" to which you earlier appealed.

"The Arabs reacted violently from the time that large numbers of Jews immigrated, so there is no way that anybody can say that this situation was ever acceptable to them."

As noted above, Islam's own authoritative documents reveal that Muslim (not Arab) Jew-hatred is almost one and one-half millennia old and required by Allah.

"I think the Kurds should have their own country."

I agree. From what I read, it appears the Kurds are (at least for now) more America-friendly than their fellow Iraqis.

"The fact that no one is worked up about it is the same reason so much genocide goes on in places like Africa and Americans don't get real excited - because it has never been put to them that this would be a situation vital to their own interests - until now, now that people are starting to realize that it is a global situation. Nothing is as simple as you would have people believe."

What is that reason? The genocide in Africa has been ongoing for centuries because Jihad requires it.

Superficial analysis
"Remember, in medieval times and the early Renaissance, scientists and astronomers in the West were being persecuted (Galileo, Copernicus, and others) while Arab astronomers and mathematicans were making great contributions to the body of world knowledge.

After centuries of slaughtering Western Infidels and destroying their work and knowledge in service to Allah.

"Algebra, for example, is an Arabic word."

Which means that Arabic had words.

You leave out Heron of Alexandria, Diophantus, and Aryabhata, among others.

"The zero is a concept given to us by Babylonians (and Hindus)."

Your "father of algebra" attributes zero to Brahmagupta, who also created a decimal-based number system. He was Hindu.

Incognito

Your cognitive dissonance is starting to make you fall apart.
Your argument is that Israel is a bad country because the 12 tribes coming out of Egypt returned to the land they left 400 years earlier before they were made slaves in Egypt, and they took the land. Therefore anyone who takes land is bad so your grudge against Israel has to do with the original founding of Israel way before Islam showed up. I was saying that if you apply that same principal to human history lets look at it. Let us not apply a standard that ONLY applies to Israel. I then showed you a history of the world that had people taking land from people. I showed you that peoples move and borders change. Suddenly only the Palestinians get to write in stone the boundaries of 1967, which are boundaries they rejected in 1967 because then they wanted the boundaries of 1948 and in 1948 they rejected those boundaries because they wanted the boundaries of 1920.
I don't know why you call me unhinged. Maybe you weren't the one who said "what would Jesus do? and "let's apologize". etc. This isn't a thesis. I have not treasured every word you have typed. I thought it was you. June 22 3:04 pm you DID say it.
So basically according to you history be dammed and let's blame the Jews is your attitude and the Jews are behind the Iraq war and possibly the Iran war. I supposed Israel was responsible for Iran taking US hostages almost 40 years ago? Muslims hate the US and Israel because we stand for modernity and for change. The Muslims who hate us hate change. They fear not being in control of their households and being able to beat their wives and kill their daughters. Mohammed Atta hated the US because he was an archtitect and because buildings in Egypt were being built higher than the pyramids. Maybe he should have started a campaign saying "let's not do that." But no,"it is America's fault. He takes out the World Trade Centers and 3,000 Americans. The US responded.
I am not unhinged. I am not a Bushie. You are an anti-Semite because everything is the Jews' fault and is a Jewish conspiracy and you apply a different standard to Jews and to Israel than to any other people or nation or event in history. And by the way the Jews bought every square inch of Israel from the people who owned the land at inflated prices. The anti Israel argument is that that isn't fair either because they paid the landowners and some of the landowners were absentee and if you are a communist what about the people who worked the land. Look up the Battle of Khaybar for a description of Mohammed taking over land and killing people and property in the 600's when it wasn't Israel and Jews were living in North Africa. The Battle of Khaybar is what Hezbollah is referring to when they name their missiles Khaybar missiles.
You sure are stuck on the noble savage concept aren't you? You don't want to give that one up. I thought the piece about Moslems demanding the right of return to Spain would wake you up, but not Incognito.
And by the way, in days of old, empires took money from the people they conquered in heavy fines. The US is spending our tax dollars on the people in the alleged US empire. The US is building roads and schools and infrastructure and electricity and water treatment plants.
And what are they doing? Blowing it up. And Muslims are blowing up the others' mosques, the gold domed thing in Iraq. And the US paid to rebuild it and repaint its golden dome, and what did they do? Be grateful? Out of the question. They blew it up again.
And Bush is spending something like 16 billion on AIDS in Africa. Aids is a preventable disease. All one has to do is to keep ones' pants zipped. But no. Bush is handing out our tax dollars for them. And while the American population is contracting except for immigrants the African population is exploding.
So there's evil old America for you.






watch Fox cable tonight
Fox Cable tonight 9 pm eastern 6 pm PST
showing Muslims against Jihad a documentary by the same people who made Islam vs Islamist that PBS refused to show.

Incognito
When I mentioned empires I showed my western bias by mentioning Greek and Roman. Let us not forget that there were the Assyrian Empire (Syria) the Babylonian Empire( Iraq) The Persian Empire (Iran), talking about how people should not take land away from other people nor occupy their territory as well as the Egyptian empire, and the Hashemites, and the Ottoman Empire. They all claimed the land of Israel at one point or another.It's OK according to Incognito for them to claim other people's lands, but not for Israel to claim its own land.
Mohammed hated the Jews because they did not recognize him as a prophet. That was in the year around 600 after Christ's death. Moses was I'm not sure 2,0000 or 3,000 years before Christ. The inhabitants were not holding a grudge against Israel from that date. Abraham was earlier than that and he came from the Middle East, Iraq to be exact.
When the state of Israel did not exist would you please explain why Mohammed felt the compulsion to go to North Africa and kill Jews and steal their property?
Have you looked up Khayber yet?
Pakistan and India were created around the same time as the modern state of Israel in 1948? Pakistan and Bangladesh are new states of Muslims carved out of Hindu India. If you are going to apply the same rules how about dissolving India Pakistan and Bangladesh? Oh I forgot. According to incognito ONLY ISRAEL has to be dissolved and its people annihilated. It's all Israel's fault. Israel should be scapegoated in historical fashion.
By the way, we the western people were the ones who discovered oil and developed it and knew how to dig for it and where to find it, and after doing all that we let the countries keep it. If we had acted like an empire we would have claimed it. There were nothing but sand dunes and camels before that.

I am not unhinged and you are bigot. You just don't want to admit your abysmal lack of knowledge about history.
You don't want to admit that there was no such thing as a Muslim until the 600's.
You are monomaniacal: it's all Israel's fault. If Israel went away there would be no problems.







Have you not noticed that the Muslims in Malaysia are attacking and killing Thais, the people of Thailand, Buddhists? The Muslims in the Philippines are attacking, and they killed Balinese the most peaceful people in the world?
The Muslims are sneaking into India to attack and kill Indians. They are laying claim to the Taj Mahal in India. They are under the spell of a "manifest destiny" brought on by the west's weakness via Jimmy Carter and Clinton and even Reagan who chose not to respond to attacks.











and
And the Muslims are claiming Kashmir, a holy city of Indian Hindus as well.

incognito advocates racism and injustice
"In my previous life here at townhall I revealed that I came from a "religious right" background."

Connections to the military, now this. Are these claims supposed to add to your credibility?

Accuracy would be more effective.

"These are the authentic Christians from the Midwest - not the frauds represented here. They may not be as well informed in foreign policy as some but they are honest and they will not live a lie."

Clumsy ad hominem.

"Why do you delude yourselves? Do you never tire of sending your children off to war? The information age has reached the far corners of the earth."

No, we frauds love to see our sons and daughters maimed and butchered by the Religionists of Peace.

"If America has committed crimes in the past, wouldn’t it be the right thing to do to acknowledge that and condemn it – as we expect others to do – and seek forgiveness?"

A tu quoque non sequitur! You're convoluting your logical fallacies.

"Maybe Christians should ask themselves, 'What would Jesus do?'"

I doubt He would advocate allowing evil men to harm innocents.

"Nevertheless, he cannot grasp the significance of a hate crime law? I’m not buying it. He says it is “enhanced punishments for crimes committed because of thoughts that government especially disapproves…Mind-reading juries are required to distinguish causation from correlation.”

How is murder, rape, or any other violent crime not hateful?

"Hate crime" seems more often than not an attempt to punish one group of people for the crimes of others based on their ethnicity, as you confirm in your next statement:

"Hate crimes are necessary when there has been a history of violence and cruelty toward minorities"

So, one who commits a crime should receive special punishment because of his and his victim's ancestry?

That's racist!

"and where the abusers have the power to get away with it. Motive is a fundamental component of our justice system and always has been."

Motive is useful in distinguishing between harm done accidentally and intentionally.

Harm is harm. Why not deal with it justly?

"Americans have indulged themselves for far too long in the belief that we can just isolate ourselves, turn away and pretend that the rest of the world is just not there."

If you're talking about Allah's War Against Humanity, then yes.

For nearly fourteen centuries, non-Muslims have suffered at the hands of the faithful, and still our political, academic, and media elites prattle on about a "tiny minority of radicalist, fundamentalist, extremist, Islamist, Islamonazi, Islamofascist Jihadist-ists" -- if they mention Islam at all.

But you didn't mean that, did you?

Nightmare? No, it's a flashback
"…Deep inside the Pentagon...a nightmare scenario hangs in the air, unmentioned but unmistakable."

Like this one? A murderous, lying, thieving, raping, heretical pedophile receives self-serving revelations -- including the "divine" mandate to convert, subdue and humiliate, or kill those not of his faith. Obediently, his followers invade foreign lands and rape, enslave, and butcher its residents until those nations cease to exist.

That's no nightmare. That's a drama that's been played out on the stage of history for the last nearly one and one-half millennia throughout the Middle East, Africa, Asia, and parts of Europe.

Doing nothing in the face of an existential threat is foolish. Recognizing the Source and Sustenance of Jihad would go a long way toward enabling us to use our blood and treasure more effectively and efficiently.

Hanson gets it right
Unti Americans really understand that there is virtually no real support anywhere in the Islamic Middle East for anything resembling Western-style democracy, they will not have a clue about what's going on. The biggest mistake Bush made was fantasizing about bringing democracy to Iraq. In the Middle East, the warlord who has the most armed men left standing wins. The Palestinians are going through such a conflict now.

While we would like to think that there are more "moderates" than "fanatics," this is something that would have to be proven, not simply taken for granted. Until our senior military leaders imbibed Bushie koolaid, they understood what I think is the case--that we are just at the beginning of the "long war" between the West and Islam. Forget about some imagined vast majority of peace-loving Muslims. They may even exist, but they don't matter.

Hanson probably knows Machiavelli's concept of "effectual truth." The "effectual truth" of something is the part of it that matters, not necessarily a literal 'objective' truth. Jihadism is the "effectual truth" of Islam, here and now, in this world, at this time. Perhaps, under other circumstances, moderate peace-loving Muslims will be the effectual truth of Islam, but that's not what we've got. Islamic violence is its own reason for existing; it is not simply a tool in the hands of men who would pursue other means if only they found such means effective. Read Sayyid Qutb, who makes this point with as much clarity as we could ever need.

More from incognito
"That is a ridiculous statement. Not one time did the Bush administration say we were going to war to right our past wrongs. Or rather - "our wrongs which weren't wrong at the time." BS. Ditto bin Laden and everything else."

The author was not referring to the President's justification for taking out Saddam, he was refuting your false claim that America leaves its mistakes unaddressed.

"And you freaks have the nerve to call me crazy. I don't recall ever, EVER, the U.S. government trying to recruit young people into the military for OIL or any other mercenary purpose."

Again, the author was not describing government policy, he was pointing out to you one likely result of our leaving the region to Jihad's proponents.

"You obviously did not read my previous posts."

Your posts have a tinge of incoherence to them. Do you not see that?

And isn't it a little bit self-important to require others be familiar with your body of "work" before engaging with you in discussion?

"See them concerning the U.S. supporting strongman regimes as well as interfering and meddling where we never had any business, including Iran."

That would be under "Hind-sight is 20/20."

What do you about Jihad now?

"I know all about colonization - the British in particular are especially guilty and I don't recall the U.S military trying to recruit young people to fix those problems, either. I guess it would only be fair, if what you say is true, to at least let the children in on it in school."

So, now America -- which according to you does nothing to address its past wrongs -- must address the (alleged) wrongs of others?

And it seems inaccurate to claim British colonization of obviously brutal, primitive, and intolerant "societies" was not beneficial for those under England's rule. In fact, since you know all about colonization, what did the Ahmadiyya say about the Queen's rule?

Unlike most Muslim sects, this one taught that since the Queen allowed them freedom to practice their religion and protected them from persecution at the hands of their fellow Muslims, they should not take up violent Jihad against it.

Finally, why do you not rail against Muslim imperialism? It's been ongoing around the world for nearly 1400 years.

Is it because everyone knows that only white Christians and Jews are evil?

"And if you are implying that my loved ones can enlist and then the administration can start an ill-conceived war and lie and BS all day long and leave them hanging while all the little Republicans refuse to sign up, then you are not much better than the people you're talking about, are you?"

That's more full of holes than a Fatah administrator's head at a Hamas clambake.

First, he was not saying that "your children should . . . ," he was saying that no one should be surprised if those who volunteer to go to war go to war.

Second, the war was not "ill-conceived," and neither did the President lie about Saddam's WMD.

The war against the tyrant was quite effective and -- according to both Clintons, Gore, Kerry, the UN, et al -- quite necessary.

What has been ill-conceived is the President's attempts to treat Islam as if it were a rational, decent, and moral belief system.

Once he recognizes that it is the truly moderate Muslim who perverts the "great world religion" -- not the jihadist -- then we can begin to deal much more effectively with our enemy.

Third, most members of the military tend to be conservative and all volunteered. In light of this, it seems contrary to reality to claim Republicans aren't "signing up. "

Fourth, to equate those who slaughter innocents to shouts of "Allahu Akbar!" with those who point out errors of fact and logic in defense of the West is not only immoral, it's suicidal.

"You conveniently ignore the fact that Israel slaughtered numerous indigenous tribes to take their land. That's the Holy War part I was talking about:"

Is that supposed to be a tu quoque argument or just a really bizarre non sequitur?

That Ancient Israel killed some particularly corrupt nations at God's command is a fact of history. That that brief event ended (incomplete) thousands of years ago is also true.

Will you not condemn with comparable vigor Allah and his false prophet's universal and eternal commands to convert, subdue and humiliate, and kill non-Muslims to make the world Islam?

"THAT IS THE BEGINNING OF HOLY WAR."

It is not the beginning, and it is not Jihad. The two are equivalent only to the ignorant and the deceitful.

You really ought to do some reading.

"they take back the land and establish the state of Israel as according to the Bible."

At least you admit the Jews have an ancient claim to the land. Most of your fellow apologists for Jihad don't have the decency (or carelessness) to do so.

Moral equivalence kills historical truth
"Islam is exactly where Christianity was 700 years after its creation."

It is well-known that eighth century Christians routinely beheaded school girls as they invaded, raped, and erased the civilizations around them.

Just as Roy labors to create a moral equivalence between Israel and the savages who terrorize it, so too you make Christianity equal to the same savages.

Millenialist
Thank you for the support and interpretation. I thought I was being clear but it was obvious we were not communicating.

Let the wise look to Allah
"Muslims worship death because their culture makes it inevitable. The same culture that stunts their societal growth."

It is the word of Allah and the example of his apostle that create and sustain that culture of death and intellectual etiolation, for -- as Islam's "sacred" texts reveal -- complete mental submission to the revealed will of Allah is required of the faithful. So too must the ummah convert, subdue and humiliate, and kill non-Muslims to make the world Islam.

Mental submission to a worldview so utterly contrary to conscience twists men's souls.

There is no Liberty, no full equality of rights for Infidels and women, and no free intellectual inquiry.

Only unquestioning obedience to Mohammed and his god is acceptable.

For Roy
"(4) The sort of intolerance toward Islam apparent in many posts confirms the deep religious prejudice (and ignorance) of many posters. Why not read some of Karen Armstrong's writings? We need to have more understanding, less bigotry."

What you define as "understanding" is more correctly termed "ignorance;" what you call "bigotry" is more accurately named "honesty."

Exactly what part of ". . . kill the unbelievers wherever you find them . . ." (Qur'an 9:5) do you find so tolerable?

How does a knowledge of 1400 years of global Jihad and the religious texts that inspire and invigorate it qualify as "prejudice"?

If it seems that you are unacquainted with Islam's actual theology and history, citing Karen Armstrong only proves it.

More for Roy
"the Hebrew scriptures are full of mass muder, even genocide. Consider Joshua slaughtering every inhabitant in Jericho, Ai, etc. And what about Saul's slaughter of the Amalekites - every one of them. And the crowds cheering David - Saul kills thousands, David kills tens of thousands, or whatever. If we judge Judaism by such stories from its scriptures it certainly would appear to be a religion of violence."

Again, a false moral equivalence wrapped in a tu quoque argument! Why do you avoid addressing the bloodlust of Allah and his false prophet?

Nearly all of the warfare recorded in the Old Testament writings are accounts of historical events, not one command requires offensive warfare to make the world Zion.

And as for the command given to conquer the Promised Land, that was limited to a specific target, place, and time. It was a divine judgment of those peoples carried out by Ancient Israel (who later suffered a similar judgment at the hands of foreign powers because of their wickedness).

It is in no way comparable to the universal commands given by Allah and his apostle for offensive warfare against all non-Muslims to make the world Islam.

"The solution? Talk and talk and talk, instead of demonizing and speaking arrogantly."

Thank you very much, Neville Chamberlain.

Talking with those whose religious obligation it is to convert, subjugate, or kill you doesn't seem like an effective strategy, unless your goal is to give them enough time to slit your throat.

And telling the truth is not demonizing.

"Basis for negotiation: we will recognize Israel if you will encourage a viable Palestinian state"

So, Muslim terrorists attack innocent Israelis, and Israel must reward the killers to gain their recognition?

That's not negotiation, that's suicide.

"Dignity and humiliation are major components of the problem. You don't gain peace and understanding when you treat subject people like dirt. I was in Israel four times and saw firsthand the humiliation of Palestinians."

Is that humiliation Israel's fault for defending itself, or the "Palestinians'" fault for repeatedly attacking them in the first place?

Stop blaming the victim.

Israel constantly sacrifices for the good of its Muslim neighbors. Where are their Coreligionists of Peace?

Those who slaughter innocents deserve much worse than humiliation.

Gunner gets it
"The problem is not Israel; it's Islam."

Good post, Lex!
"Take that, you stinking Jewish and Christian apostates and infidels!!!"

A quick comment on Bytheocean's
"Christ valued his spiritual life in the life hereafter. He didn't value being alive."

He did value being alive. He valued our spiritual lives more.

Another quick one . . .
"BTW, Muslims are seeking a right of return to Spain since they were expelled in the 1600's or thereabouts, a few hundred years after their conquest of southern Spain."

In 1492, Spain completed the Reconquista of their own lands by finally defeating the Moors at Granada.

It took them nearly eight hundred years.

Most other Infidel lands were not so fortunate.

incognito speaks, and the world listens
"But, if the Koran is a reaction to the Holy War in the Bible and to the all of the invasions and occupations that have occurred throughout history"

Even the ones after Qur'an was written!

So, to you Muslim bloodlust and barbarism is the fault of the Jews and Europeans, even before they did it!

That is less than accurate. Qur'an is the revelation of Allah to Mohammed. Is the expressed will of his deity.

Jihad -- Islamic holy war -- is no reaction to anything Biblical, it is a tool used by Allah and his false prophet to extend his rule over all Mankind.

Undoubtedly (though nothing you've written here indicates it), your vast research has led you to discover what Islam's authoritative texts -- Qur'an, Hadith, and Sira -- say about Jihad.

You must know that Islamic warfare advanced through several stages over the course of Mohammed's career as the apostle of Allah.

Please tell us what they were.

Okay, let me help. In the beginning, when Mohammed was politically, economically, and militarily weak, cooperation, not violence, was taught.

Later, as Mohammed grew in power, defensive warfare was allowed, then it was required.

Finally, at the end of his revelations, Allah required offensive warfare to make the world Islam.

And what did Mohammed say about this use of violence? Here is a sample:

". . . the Messenger of Allah . . . would say: 'Fight in the name of Allah and in the way of Allah. Fight against those who disbelieve in Allah. Make a holy war . . . . When you meet your enemies who are polytheists, invite them to three courses of action. . . . Invite them to (accept) Islam. . . . If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. . . . If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them . . .'" (Muslim Book 019, Number 4294).

"...fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war) . . . " (Qur’an 9:5).

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued" (Qur'an 9:29).

". . . fight them [Unbelievers] on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere . . . " (Qur'an 8:38, 39).

"O ye who believe! fight the unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you: and know that Allah is with those who fear Him" (Qur'an 9:123).

"Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you." (Qur'an 2:216).

"Allah's Apostle said: 'I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle . . . '" (Bukhari Volume 1, Book 2, Number 24).

“A man came to Allah’s Apostle and said, ‘Instruct me as to such a deed as equals Jihad in reward.’ He replied, ‘I do not find such a deed’” (Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 44).

"Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): 'I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them'" (Qur'an 8:12).

“Allah’s Apostle said, ‘I have been made victorious with terror. The treasures of the world were brought to me and put in my hand’” (Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 220).

incognito continues:

"I don’t see how the West’s involvement in the establishment of the state of Israel could make things anything but worse. Much worse. And, our continued meddling and interference, how is that going to make things better? Do you honestly believe this is going to solve anything? Do you honestly believe that denying the obvious is going to work?"

Let's see, we interfered in this little thing called World War II. That worked out for quite a few of the nations involved, even the antagonists.

I supported President Bush's toppling of Saddam.

From the moment the first American was killed by a suicide bomber at a checkpoint, I have opposed the President sacrificing our people's well-being in an effort to safeguard theirs.

And as I have learned more about Islam's deity, founder, and history, I have become ever more disgusted with the efforts to "win Muslim hearts and minds." The truly Muslim heart and mind sees the sacrifice of Infidel blood and treasure only as a proper tribute to the supremacy of Islam and the Muslim.

We ought to allow Shia and Sunni to work out their little disagreements with each other the way they always have.

We should rescue the Christians, Jews, and other non-Muslims from Dar al-Islam, and not one more Infidel dime should go to any nation which refuses to recant their faith in the deity of blood.

"al-Qaida is in sixty countries and then there are the other extremist groups, I don’t think their goal is really to kill all the infidels so much as to get them out of their business. Maybe get some accountability."

Speaking out of ignorance does not add to your credibility.

The faithful Muslim will adhere to the command and example of Mohammed, and violent Jihad is only one tool to be used in accomplishing his goal, the subjugation of Humanity under the tyranny of Allah.

"You say this is false and that much of the Old Testament does not have to do with slaying innocent people to take their land."

I wrote that your assertions were false, including this "much of the Old Testatment" falsehood.

I asked for you to provide specific citations to demonstrate that "much of the Old Testament" had to do with genocide. Not too successful with that search, I assume?

"Many times, they killed every living thing including women and children, animals and crops."

Neither "many" nor "every" is true. But since you just advised me not to come in here and talk about things of which I know nothing, you must already know that!

"That is not so different than – “I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslim.”

There are quite a few differences, incognito. Are you unable or unwilling to admit them?

"I never said there was a “state” called Palestine. I said there are maps in Bibles that call this place Palestine and now, when you look at a map, there is no longer a Palestine. Plain and simple."

So, now you're claiming you made a statement of fact apart from any sort relevance to your argument or the thread?

That is unsurprising.

"Your point seems to be that because it is a specific thing in the Koran that, somehow, supersedes all practical reasons."

No, my point is that the Source and Sustenance of global Jihad is the will of Allah and the example of his apostle.

It is only reasonable to expect that the faithful will strive to carry out their god and founder's commands (especially when they say that's what they are doing!).

Your repeated arguments of moral equivalence, "It's the Jews' fault!" and "Islam does it because the Bible did!" are false.

"The point I am trying to make is that with the West and particularly the U.S. supplying aid and weapons to Israel for decades, the Palestinian people are fighting back the only way they can – like it or not – and I don’t think they are going to stop any time soon, just because the world disapproves of their methods."

Here again you're attributing responsibility and blame to the U.S. and Israel for Muslim terrorism. That's intellectually dishonest and morally corrupt, and it's just what Islam does: "It's your fault for defending yourselves!"

"Also, if you all feel so strongly about this why aren't you signing up to fight these people? There has never been enough troops in Iraq and I think this country has just about asked for enough sacrifices from the troops and people like you should put up or shut up."

"you all"? "people like you"?

A false, ad hominem argument made from ignorance. Why not address the facts?

The President needs to recognize Islam makes it impossible to persuade its adherents with anything other than force, and -- instead of using our military as policemen -- let them do what they do better than anyone else.

incognito's inexcusable incognizance
"We have no right, whatsoever, to meddle in the Middle East, period. Not for oil, not to establish a foothold there, nothing."

9/11.

Bytheocean
It takes two to communicate. You did your part.

Keep up the good work.

Khaybar
Incognito- this was before the state of Israel - got it?

The Muslims are taking down articles they find on the internet including rewriting completely the one on Wikipedia, about Khaybar but this one is still up.

“Jihad Watch Robert Spencer
Why Khaybar Should Concern the West
by Robert Spencer
Posted: 08/09/2006
As Hizballah fires its Khaybar?1 rockets into Israel, Kuwaiti demonstrators recently chanted, “Khaybar, Khaybar, O Jews, the army of Muhammad will return.” Meanwhile, last Thursday, Grand Ayatollah Mohammed Hussein Fadlallah, Lebanon’s leading Shi’ite cleric, praised Hizballah for waging a “new battle of Khaibar.”

Reporting Fadlallah’s remarks, AP blandly noted “at Khaibar, the name of an oasis in what is now Saudi Arabia, Islam’s prophet Muhammad won a battle against Jews in the year 629.” Reality was different. As I explain in my book "The Truth about Mohammed” " (coming October 9 from Regnery Publishing, a HUMAN EVENTS sister company), Muhammad was not responding to any provocation when he led a Muslim force against the Khaybar oasis, which was inhabited by Jews. One Muslim remembered: “We met the workers of Khaybar coming out in the morning with their spades and baskets. When they saw the apostle and the army they cried, ‘Muhammad with his force,’ and turned tail and fled. The apostle said, ‘Allah Akbar! Khaybar is destroyed. When we arrive in a people’s square it is a bad morning for those who have been warned.’”

“The apostle,” according to Muhammad’s earliest biographer, Ibn Ishaq, “seized the property piece by piece and conquered the forts one by one as he came to them.” Another biographer reports that Muhammad “killed ninety-three men of the Jews…” When the Muslims e