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Thursday, May 17, 2007
Victor Davis Hanson :: Townhall.com Columnist
The New Penance doesn't Offset Much
by Victor Davis Hanson
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What do leftist, mostly secular elites share with medieval sinners?

They feel bad that the way they live sometimes doesn't quite match their professed dogma.

Many in the medieval church were criticized by internal reformers and the public at large for their controversial granting of penance, especially to the wealthy and influential. Clergy increasingly offered absolution of sins by ordering the guilty to confess. Better yet, sometimes the well-heeled sinners were told to pay money to the church, or to do good works that could then be banked to offset their bad.

Of course, critics of the practice argued that serial confessions simply encouraged serial sinning. The calculating sinner would do good things in one place to offset his premeditated bad in another. The corruption surrounding these cynical penances and indulgences helped anger Martin Luther and cause the Reformation.

Maybe it was inevitable that the old practice of paid absolution would appeal to elite baby boomers -- a class and generation that always seems to want it both ways by compartmentalizing their lives. The only difference is that the new sinners are not so worried about God's wrath as they are about their reputation among their judgmental liberal gods.

Take the idea of "carbon offsets" made popular by Al Gore. If well-meaning environmentalist activists and celebrities either cannot or will not give up their private jets or huge energy-hungry houses, they can still find a way to excuse their illiberal consumption.

Instead of the local parish priest, green companies exist to take confession and tabulate environmental sins. Then they offer the offenders a way out of feeling bad while continuing their conspicuous consumption.

You can give money to an exchange service that does environmental good in equal measure to your bad. Or, in do-it-yourself fashion, you can calibrate how much energy you hog -- and then do penance by planting trees or setting up a wind generator.

Either way, your own high life stays uninterrupted.

Some prominent green activists pay their environmental penance in cash, barter or symbolism to keep the good life. Al Gore, for example, still gets to use 20 times more electricity in his Tennessee mansion than the average household.

Take also the case of Laurie David, the green activist and wife of "Seinfeld" co-creator Larry David. She has recently generated plenty of publicity for her biofuel-powered bus tour to promote environmentalism. But in other circumstances, David still flies on gas-guzzling private jets.

The best thing about this medieval idea of penance is that it can now be repackaged as politically correct "offsets." During the last few decades, the return of these modern indulgences has caught on in a variety of ways.

Liberal presidential candidate John Edwards, for example, lives in a 30,000-square-foot home, gets $400 haircuts and recently made a lot of cash by working for a profit-driven, cutthroat hedge fund. How's he supposed to alleviate his guilt over this? Presto! He can lecture others about the inequity of an American system that unfairly created two unequal societies -- his rich nation and many others' poor one.

Don Imus was serially warned that his foul and sometimes racist banter would eventually get him into big trouble. Still, as he kept up his trash talking aimed at Jews, women and blacks, Imus also generously donated to, and even set up charities for, wounded veterans and poor children.

Thus, when his slurs inevitably crossed the line one too many times, Imus not only confessed and apologized, but, inevitably, claimed his indulgences of past good deeds in hopes of offsetting the present bad ones.

These varieties of contemporary offsets could be expanded. But you get the picture of the moral ambiguity. Penance, ancient and modern, was thought corrupt because it was not sincere apology nor genuine in its promise to stop the sin.

Thanks to carbon offsets, Al Gore keeps his mansion -- and still feels good while warning others we all can't live as he does.

John Edwards chooses to offset his own privileges by sermonizing about unfairness in America.

And who can forget George Soros? The billionaire can lavishly fund liberal causes such as left-wing think tanks, Web sites and ballot initiatives -- and thereby offset his millions made speculating on exchange rates and bankrupting small depositors. He's become a hero to those who ordinarily demonize such financial piracy.

In other words, "offsets" is merely a euphemism for words like cynicism and hypocrisy. So by all means help save the planet, worry about the poor, establish charities. Just spare us the medieval idea that such penance ever excuses your own excess.

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About The Author
Victor Davis Hanson is a classicist and historian at the Hoover Institution, Stanford University, and a recipient of the 2007 National Humanities Medal.

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Elites
Here in Colorado we have a lot of Communties that claim they are carbon neutral. Like Aspen, Duragno, Steamboat Springs, and Vail. They oppose all drilling of oil/gas wells as foresting activities. But in reality they comsume much more energy than all the windmills in Colorado can produce. Talk about hyprocicy!
When a new power line into Vail was proposed years ago the ranchers in the immediate area was opposed as emminent domain was being imposed on them. But the courts ruled against them. Where do you suppose they get their energy? Don't let me forget Boulder County, they are the worst of the lot.

here hear
Great column. Strong evidence of some sort of "faith" gene that programs all of us to recognize our own hypocracy and then to engage in some sort of repentent conduct.


The liberals
form of religion is what this is about and they do take it to new heights of idiocy. Even the Catholics can't claim such excesses.

What about "Go and Sin No More"?
Anybody who is an actual practicing Catholic understands that a "confession" without sincere detestation of one's own sin and resolve to not only make meaningful reparations but resolve to sin no more, is an exercise in self-indulgent futility. A man who lives in a house big enough to house half the people in my old neighbourhood would be better advised to keep his head down and say nothing in hopes that the proletariat won't show up one day with the pitch forks and the torches.

You may think I am kidding about the neighbourhood. I recently moved out of a 540 square foot apartment. As I was supervising the move, a woman with two children came and asked if she could look at that apartment because she wanted something BIGGER to house herself and her kids. When I see Al Gore and John Edwards moving their families into a place the size of the average American family's garage, then I'll believe they're serious about repentance. Until then, they can save it for the teevee.

It should come as no surprise
That the state with the largest percentage of self-consciously penance-seeking progressives is Calfornia. After all, if it weren't for power and water from other states, there wouldn't even be a state there, technically speaking, south of Sacramento. (OK, maybe the Central Valley could survive on its own resources, but they probably wouldn't be selling much wine or produce.)

I tend to consider this whole business as yet another example of what I call the "watertight-compartment minds" of the progressive crowd. It's not just that they can pay for indulgences to keep living the high life; it's also that by doing so, they can claim moral superiority over everyone else. The sad part is that some people actually buy the scam.

And speaking of scams, AlGore From The Planet Eco has a new book out. It's all about how "irrationalism" has taken over American politics. Of course, I'm sure that his definition of "irrationalism" consists of anyone daring to disagree with him.

Or failing to genuflect as he goes by.


cheers

eon

Oops
"Calfornia" = CalIfornia.

Coffee first, then type.


cheers

eon

the nature of the
fallen. Human nature never wants to take responsibility for it's own failure or "sin". So it's either the blame game, or good deeds must outweigh the bad according to it's own rules, not God's. And, the MSM plays along, and the beat goes on!

It's About Integrity
It comes down to personal integrity. Without integrity, a person will say and do most anything. And when there is no integrity, there is no real feeling of guilt. Therefore it is not guilt that motivates them to seek penance, it is concern of what others think of them.

Look at the "personalities" on the national scene. Which ones have personal integrity? Have you noticed that lack of integrity and being liberal go hand-in-hand. It is not being liberal that causes a diminished personal integrity -- it is the other way around.

blame America
AppolloSpeaks,

Better late waking up than never. Praise God and may He bless you.

Liberal penance
Wow! I am probably pretty naive, but this is the first time I've realized there is a connection between all the silly stuff I see celebrities spouting (one square of toilet paper per bathroom visit/ it's okay if I gratuitously insult young girls I don't know because I'm nice to other kids)and the idea of doing penance. The idea that this is their version of penance gives me hope. Of course, the silly actions won't give any one of them the release of true forgiveness. It's refreshing to consider that the Sillies actually may have consciences that bother them. There's hope for someone with a conscience!

VD's ignorance is showing
What a tawdry tactic, VD, smearing a sacred Sacrament to serve your political agenda. But the neocons want us all to believe that everything medieval is "evil," since "Islamofascism" is (go figure).

Here's the real deal, VD: In Genesis, God told Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply, and to take dominion over the earth, and the fish, birds, and every living thing in it.

If you were the Devil (says one of my favorite Jesuits), what would you say? "Don't be fruitful. Don't multiply. And let the earth take dominion over you." THAT is the heresy of the tree-huggers.

That's the real deal, VD. Stop smearing the Church and stick to your neocon agendas. Anti-Catholicism is as bad as anti-Semitism, you know.

To Vic
You have missed Albore's real intent. The idea of buying indulgences was never his intent. His intent, from the beginning at Kyoto, has been to SELL indulgences.

The AGW skeptics have PROVED that the AGW theory is a bogus scam. Albore should be in jail.

Hypocrisy of the Left
You didn't mention the hypocrisy of Ted Kennedy, John Kerry, John Murtha, Pat Leahy, Duncy Pelosi, Harry Reid, The Clintons, Chuck Schumer, Johndingal, Al sharpton, Jesse Jackson, Dan Rostenkowski, The City of San Francisco and it goes on and on....
Are there any Liberals who are honest and forthright?

Principle trumps power




Does anyone support Gonzales staying as Attorney General? Why would President Bush appoint Gonzales as AG knowing his past ethical problems?

USA TODAY-Three years ago, an attorney general, his deputy, the FBI director and others put their jobs on the line to block a White House wiretapping plan. The story, revealed Tuesday, speaks worlds about the importance of upholding principle under pressure — and about the current attorney general’s failure to do just that.

James Comey: “I thought I just witnessed an effort to take advantage of a very sick man, who did not have the powers of the attorney general,” the former deputy AG says

Watch

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/principle-trumps-power

James Comey testimony should be seen no matter what party you are in!

John Konop
To complete your education, you'll probably want to read this:

http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110010084

What do you do?
So, what do you people do to conserve energy and help the environment?

Here is what I've done. I own a hybrid auto, have changed all my lights to low energy florescent bulbs, recycle, replaced old hvac with energy efficient, replaced windows with double glass, and gas filled windows.

To DA
I can't afford a hybrid auto so I reduced my driving to < 4000 miles/yr. I have replaced my heat pump, I have replaced my windows, and I will not replace light bulbs with flourecent because they are a waste hazard with Hg. Instead I am waiting on the perfection of LED lights and the price to come down. They too have a certain amount of hazardous waste (not Hg) but they last so much longer than the other AND they use a lot less power.

Now, why not get Albore to do all of this.

I like VDH
... but I really don't think this is a useful line of argument.

I don't care how Al Gore and Laurie David live. I care about empirical verity and dispassionate analysis in the treatment of "global warming," whatever that expression actually means.

I don't care how John Edwards lives. His policies and his fundamental assumptions are flawed. Downcheck. Elect someone else.

Imus doesn't really seem to fit here, but as far as I can tell, no one First Amendment rights were steamrolled in the brouhaha over him. I'm not a fan, and figure his redemption is between him and God.

As for Soros, if he has broken laws, prosecute him. If we need new laws to avert the bankrupting of small depositors by his practices, let's discuss that. His redemption is also between him and God.

To me, the defensible point about carbon offsets is that they are (a) silly, and would be even if they weren't analogous to paid absolution from the medieval Church; and (b) predicated on an unproven theory about climate whose infrastructure of proponency is awash in data that don't compute, models that don't work when applied to the observed past, and scientists who demand their be names removed from its publications.

We all need absolution. But I don't think Gore and Edwards need absolution for being rich. Conceding that point starts one down a steep, slippery slope. The point about them isn't that they feel guilty, and haha about that, you absolution-seeking doodyheads -- the point about them is that their political assumptions and proposals are WRONG.

Soros, Gore, and Edwards could live like Mother Theresa, and they'd still be WRONG in their policy thinking. That's the point.

VDH=MORON
My father told me when I was young: If you don't know what your talking about, shut your mouth. VDH should take that advice, and before he utters (or types) another word about the only institution to stand the test of time and human folly, he should read about it by its members.

People who confessed too often were not told to stop out of fear of continuous sinning, but rather the sin of thinking one's self so horrible that even God couldn't forgive them. Do your homework.

I'd type more, but I'm about ready to spew. I'm never reading VDH again.

Actually, it's even worse...
...many of the "carbon offsets" that these individuals buy are from activities that may not ever actually take place.

Also, the author implies something wrongly. The ancestor of "carbon offsets" was "carbon trading"--popularized by none other than Enron!

Check out the Financial Times' writeup:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/48e334ce-f355-11db-9845-000b5df10621,dwp_uuid=3c093daa-edc1-11db-8584-000b5df10621.html

Penance
The people who need to pray about forgiveness for their sins are the extremist on the right, who are more like cultists than ordinary Christians.
They are obsessed with sex, accept lies and deceit from their own, condone or engage in torturous activities, proclaim their hateful acts are for God when they are doing these acts for themselves, take a narow view of the Bible as they concentrate on those passages that they believe fit their rhetoric, engage in bullying and emotional blackmail, promote and condone killing and bodily harm, disrespect the elderly, ignore the poor, promote and condone physical and emotional child and spousal abuse, selfishly and sinfully hope for the annihilation of others in order to fulfill some prophecy that their cult leaders made up, worship human beings and generally refuse to take responsibility for the sinful behavior of themselves and those they wrongfully protect.

DA...
...what do I do to conserve? I do nothing.I live just like I have always lived.Enviromentalism is not my religion.However,we have freedom of religion in this country and you are entitled to yours.Just don't try to impose it on me,or maybe I'll end up imposing mine on you.Fair enough?

N/A...
...were you describing the Democrat party? What do they have to do with this article?

Bigot
I like this column.

He presents a completely false history of the sacrament of reconciliation, confuses penance with indulgences, accuses the Catholic Church of the sin of simony (the attempt to buy/sell sanctifying grace), misrepresents Martin Luther's beef and the entire history of the Reformation all in order to slam some liberals who have already been slammed for these offenses by better writers in much better columns than this one.

This is the shabbiest hit piece I've seen since D'Souza started writing about Muslims.

mrteacher
Apparently you don't get the stupid idea of buying carbon offsets does absolutely nothing. Gaia Gore thinks nothing of selling Carbon offsets to get other people's money and if you beleive what he saysyou'll need to zip it,because your ignorance is showing. If you want to be a concscientious citizen,fine. But there is no need for the hysteria and hypocricy of the algores. His fellow greenies, the elite are the biggest hypocrits of all. I liken them to Radical Islam's Virgins...those environmental wackos...Do they think they are going to meet Mother Gaia for their diligence at saving the earth? After all, we only have five years left!(Scuse me, while I barf...then I'll go shitt in the compost pile.)

indulgences
it is the new messiah algore telling his acolytes of his carbon offset scam. I have yet to hear any of his devotees claim they lost the faith when algore's hypocrisy about energy use was made public. That didn't stop the acolytes from threatening violence against those who had the auacity to inform the world about the emporers new clothes. the biggest sin currently is the the right has challenged the new messiah's words. The acolytes don't want to see algore's feet of clay so they will always believe his truth over challenging evidence that shows global warming is coming from his lips. When algore spoke at the local university his speaking fee was $100,000. He gave his speech, never held a press meeting and answered no questions. Sounds as though his own arguments are so weak even he can';t defend them but he does know how to lecture the rest of us on our sipposed selfish and wasteful lifestyles

Nee
Mr Teacher is probably one of those teachers who required fthe viewing of algore's film and toild his students this was the final truth. I would guess that any student challenging him or offering conflicting evidence was guaranteed failing marks. Mr teacher appears too close minded to suggest fairness in his classroom

VDH & SRM, Team Made in Heaven
I liked Ann Coulter's idea of the ever-widening Al Gore and his "carbon buttprint." VDH is a wise and witty man. Of course, I'd say no less of myself. Personally, I think VDH and I should do a regular column, a la Dick Morris (who provides the big name) and Eileen McGann (who actually does the work). What a duo we would be!

SRM


nam65-66
N?A supports my view that the left can read the words but cannot comprehend the meaning. This is perhaps the weakest column I have read by VDH but the man has such a grasp of facts and history he tends to hit homeruns everytime at bat. But talking about the phony messiah algore in the new religion of global warming upsets the acolytes who are the true believers. From day one of algores sham proposal of carbon offsets anyone with common sense knew this was the nonsense we used to attribute to snake oil salesmen. The worst sin that the right can commit is to show the true believers that their new cult leader has feet of clay while having the unmitigated gall to lecture us about our energy use while he consumes at 20 times everyone elses us rate. He has a long history of being a blowhard hypocrite, his new religion and it's followerts either can't or won't see the real algore

Carbon Offsets
This idea of carbon offsets is the biggest hypocritical joke I have ever heard of. I don't believe all the hype about global warming anyway but those who do should put their money where their mouth is and do realistic quantifiable things to demonstrate their belief. It is obvious that they only care about downgrading the average person's lifestyle not their own.

eon:
.
My guess is Algore's definition of "irrationalism" is what happens when the Democrats lose.

Cheers.

sedonaman

algore
algores pathology goes back to his father. gore sr was one of the most arragant haters ever in the senate. His bright child was a girl with a natural aptitude for politics but she was female and thus unsuited for politics. Young al had none of the requirements to be a successful politician. He lacked personality, couldn't engage in small talk and was that bumbling kid we see but hope we never have. Still daddy decided junior would be president. Jr. was raised to believe that was his destiny. He rode daddy's name to election in both the house and senate became VP as he was so dim he would never outshine the clintons but would always bow and scape in their presence. Running against a weak candidate he still lost the election for president and then tried various legal challenges to overturn the election. Falling out of grace he stumbled across the perfect scam to woo the mentally challenged. Becoming the new messiah of global warming he has gathered a following that combined with his cash estimated to be in excess of $50,000,000 he can offer a serious challenge to become president. Will he do that? Who knows, on the stump when he has to deal with issues he would probably resort to the bumbling personality he mastered in the past. But lecturing on global warming is a totally different algore. There are pundits who think should algore want the nomination he can get it and his new following could mount a serious challenge. He has the cash and a devoted following

DA
Same things I have always done. I have been a conserver since I was small -- Mama and Daddy were Depression Babies and they brought us up on "Use it up! Wear it out! Make it do or do without." Taste is economy, and I live in the city where I can walk or take transit or ride my bike a lot. I won't use those new light bulbs because they hurt my eyes.

I even drive a 1973 car. Okay, it's a 1973 Ferrari Dino GTS. But to make up for it I am still wearing a lot of the clothes I had in college in the 1960s. I bet YOU can't say the same. (Buy classics and take care of them. Oh, and don't get fat.)

VDH, beware the endorsement
you received at 5:30. As your column compares the ludicrous "carbon offsets" to the medieval sale of indulgences, I am sure you are familiar with the phrase:

Lord protect me from my friends.

uncharacteristically weak column
I am stunned that this column comes from such a celebrated historian. Knowing very little about antiquity, I have always taken VDH's observations about it at face value. I wonder if this is wise. Being more familiar with medieval history, I can hardly believe that such a vulgar caricature of indulgences and the sacrament of penance is coming from a serious scholar.

It may be that carbon offsets are a way for green elites to assuage their guiltor to buy themselves an "out" when charged with hypocrisy, but to equate them to a false description of a Catholic sacrament (which you oddly imply is a thing of the past) necessarily besmirches Catholics as hypocritical buffoons for going to confession. Perhaps the insult isn't intended, but it is certainly there.

For your information, Luther rejected the sacrament of penance because it did not jibe with his newly developing notion of justification by faith. Luther conceived of man as bereft of free will and too depraved to earn a place in heaven by good works, such that *only* faith in Jesus can bring a man to salvation -- thus, "justification by faith." Obviously, there is no place for confession, penance or an indulgence(described as "a remission of the temporal punishment due to sin, the guilt of which has been forgiven")in such a view, where your actions are irrelevant to your salvation.

The Catholic Church recognized that indulgences were being abused and halted the practice of granting, or rather purporting to grant, them in exchange for almsgiving. But to call the sale of indulgences an abuse of them is to recognize their importance and affirm their validity. Indulgences are still very much alive and well in the Church today.

While Luther got mileage out of the fact of their abuse, he did not aim to reform corruption in the Church but to discredit the very notion of indulgences as part of his argument for justification by faith.

For a more involved explanation of what indulgences are, see here: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07783a.htm

For an explanation of the sacrament of penance, please see here: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11618c.htm

Catholicism forbids both presumption (e.g. declaring oneself "saved") and despair (e.g. believing oneself beyond forgiveness or redemption). The Catholic Church teaches that both faith and good works are essential for salvation. Obtaining forgiveness for serious sins is essential in this view. It is not and never has been regarded as some out-of-date joke for unserious hypocrites, but as a vitally important sacrament for seriously remorseful sinners.

I hope this provides a decent starting point for further study on this frequently misunderstood episode in the history of Western Civilization.

I can see it now


Hail Al, Full of gas
Forgive us our carbon footprints

After all , isn't it almost a religion to him and his follweres

OOPS
follweres= followers
not enough caffine

The new penance
Mr Hansen: As I read Matt 8:21-23 I see great distain for those who try to pay for God's favor.


more conservative failures
The whole argumenet against global warming mania is mishandled by the so called conservative pundits. Criticizing Gore for his enegry use and the CO2 offset scheme is not the way to gop for the throat! It is only rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

GO after the faulty science! Quote the valid climate scientists that oppose the eco-maniacs! Get more and more of the new studies throwing light onto the role of the sun into the hands and into the minds of more Americans!

Attack the false socialist science behind AGW! Stop the soft peddling nonsense!

Saving mother earth
DA writes: Thursday, May, 17, 2007 12:15 PM

"What do you do?
So, what do you people do to conserve energy and help the environment?"

I type with one finger and do my best to convert liberals to conservatives.



I wish I had thought of it
The comparison of indulgences with carbon offsets is one of the cleverest analogies I have read. The notion of carbon offsets is absurd, even for those who support the notion of man made global warming.

And boy o'boy did he make the Catholic theologians mad.

The ''Liberals'' can do more...
...to assure that they are wholly, virtuously, unarguably "carbon neutral."

They can simply stop exhaling.

--
I don't know if the *planet* will be immediately better off for that course of action (with the number of "Liberals" infesting the world, that's going to leave megatons of decomposing meat all over the place, and carbon-containing gasses will necessarily vent from the processes by which the "Liberals'" mortal remains will decay), but once they've rotted away physically as thoroughly as they have both morally and intellectually, it can be predicted quite reliably that Mother Gaea will sport a crop of humanity a whole helluva lot happier and less harried by stridulent stupidity than we are at present.
--

Rich d
--I type with one finger and do my best to convert liberals to conservatives.--

Next you'll point out this verse and say that we have nothing to worry about.

Genesis 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Well, I may agree with this if the bible were anything other than an ancient mythology, like Homer's Odyssey. I am still waiting for someone to answer the question I posted on a different article earlier:


My question is how you can reconcile your faith with the knowledge that it is nothing more than a mythology. The NT is based on the fall of man and Jesus giving his life for the forgiveness of man's [and woman's] sins. This is based on Genesis in the OT and Eve giving Adam the apple of knowledge. Even if you ignore the ridiculous nature of the story [a talking snake etc], the conflict with reality is damning.

A major conflict between reality and the bible is the age of the universe. Archbishop James Ussher estimated the age of the earth at 4004 BC, this age varies by the interpretation between 6-12,000 yrs ago depending on the interpretation of the text. There are some ’old earth creationists’ who believe that the earth’s age is much older and that each day, quoted in genesis, lasted millions of years. This doesn’t add up for several reasons. First, genesis states ‘And the evening and the morning were the third day.’ This verse leaves little room for interpretation. Second, God, supposedly, made grass and plants before making the sun. If each day lasted millions of years, all of the greenery would die because sunlight is essential for photosynthesis. The actual age of the universe, as we know it, is 13.7 billion years old. This is based on physics and the background microwave radiation that is left over from the big bang [Quarks and the Cosmos. Michael S. Turner. Science 5 January 2007 315: 59-61].


Waiting...
DA writes: Wednesday, May, 23, 2007 7:25 PM

"Rich d
--I type with one finger and do my best to convert liberals to conservatives.--"

Thanks for quoting that again even though it had nothing to do with your post - it was one of my better lines, and now it's up for the third time for those who might have missed it.

"I am still waiting for someone to answer the question I posted on a different article earlier:"

Here's how it might happen:

(1) You learn Christian theology.
(2) You rephrase your current strawman questions so that they coincide with the reality of Christian theology, and ask them in a non-baiting, humble way.
(3) Then someone will assume that you are actually asking to learn more, and respond.

Until then, choose a comfortable chair, wear sunscreen, and drink plenty of fluids.

Rich d
--(1) You learn Christian theology.
(2) You rephrase your current strawman questions so that they coincide with the reality of Christian theology, and ask them in a non-baiting, humble way.
(3) Then someone will assume that you are actually asking to learn more, and respond.--

(1)And what is your problem with my knowledge of christian theology? Are you saying that jesus did not give his life for our sins that we accrued from the fall?

The fall of man is pretty clear in Genesis:
3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

Now, Romans tells us that Jesus gave his life for forgiveness of Adam's sin.
5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

So, where do you disagree with my interpretation of the scripture?

(2)It is not a strawman, nor is it baiting. It is a difficult question. The only answer that I can see, that makes sense, is that people recognize the bible as a story that has some good and some bad but is not innerrant.


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