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Thursday, May 10, 2007
Victor Davis Hanson :: Townhall.com Columnist
Your war, not mine!
by Victor Davis Hanson
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"This war is lost," Sen. Majority Leader Harry Reid recently proclaimed.

That pessimism about Iraq is now widely shared by his Democratic colleagues. But many of these converted doves aren't being quite honest about why they've radically changed their views of the war. Most of the serious Democratic presidential candidates -- Sens. Hillary Clinton, Joe Biden and Christopher Dodd, and former Sen. Jonathan Edwards -- once voted, along with Reid, to authorize the war. Sen. Barack Obama didn't. But, then, he wasn't in the Senate at the time.

Now these former supporters of Iraq find themselves under assault by a Democratic base that demands apologies. Only Edwards has said he is sorry for his vote of support.

But if the Democratic Party is now almost uniformly anti-war, it is also understandable why it can't field a single major presidential candidate who was in Congress when it counted and tried to stop the invasion.

After all, responsible Democrats in national office had been convinced by Bill Clinton for eight years and then George W. Bush for two that Saddam's Iraq was both a conventional and terrorist threat to the United States and its regional allies.

Most in Congress accepted that Saddam was a genocidal mass murderer. They knew he used his petrodollars to acquire dangerous weapons. And they felt his savagery was intolerable in a post-9/11 world. There was no debate that Saddam gave money to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers or offered sanctuary to terrorists like Abu Abbas and Abu Nidal. And few Democrats questioned whether the al-Qaida-affiliated terrorist group Ansar al-Islam was in Kurdistan.

In other words, Democrats, like most others, wanted Saddam taken out for a variety of reasons beyond fears of WMD. Moreover, it was the Clinton-appointed CIA director George Tenet who supplied both Democrats and Republicans in Congress with much of the intelligence they would later cite in deciding to attack Saddam.

When both congressional Democrats and Republicans cast their votes to go along with President Bush, they even crafted 23 formal causes for war. So far only the writ concerning the fear of stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction has in hindsight proven false.

But we no longer hear much about these various reasons why the Democrats understandably supported the removal of Saddam Hussein. Instead, they now most often plead they were hoodwinked by sneaky warmongering neocons or sexed-up partisan intelligence reports.

There is nothing wrong with changing your mind, especially in matters as serious as war -- but the public at least deserves a sincere explanation for this radical about-face.

So why not come clean about their changes of heart?

Many Democrats apparently think that claiming they were victimized by Bush and the neocons is more palatable than confessing to their own demoralization with the news from the front.

Others may fear that admitting publicly that a disheartened America should not or cannot finish a conflict would send a dangerous message to our enemies. So while these Democrats accuse President Bush of being hardheaded and unwavering on Iraq, they are still afraid that their own mea culpas would send an equally dangerous message of inconsistency abroad.

Democrats need to admit the truth: that removing a dangerous Saddam Hussein and promoting democracy in his place seemed a good idea to them in 2003-4 when the cost appeared tolerable. Now, in 2007, with over 3,000 American lives lost in Iraq, they feel differently.

In other words, Democrats could argue that somewhere along the line -- whether it was after Fallujah or the start of sectarian Sunni-Shiite violence -- they either lost confidence in the United States' very ability to stabilize Iraq, or felt that even if we could, it was no longer worth the tab in American blood and treasure.

That confession could, of course, be nuanced with exculpatory arguments about the mistakes made by those in the Bush administration, such as: "Our necessary war that I voted for to remove Saddam worked; your optional one to stay on to promote democracy didn't."

Such an explanation of turnabout would be transparent and invite a public discussion. And it would certainly be more legitimate that the current protestations of "the neo-cons made me do it."

With America still engaged in a tough war, that kind of excuse-making just doesn't cut it.

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About The Author
Victor Davis Hanson is a classicist and historian at the Hoover Institution, Stanford University, and a recipient of the 2007 National Humanities Medal.

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Before, it was Dems truth, now it's lies
When Bill Clinton was still President, Hillary along with other Democrats, couldn't wait to jump in front of cameras to condemn Saddam for the weapons of mass destruction he used, and the threat of acquiring more dangerous weapons. At the time these truths weren't considered lies, because it came out of the mouths of the Democrats, and their truths didn't take us to war. Now, using the same information and intelligence passed on from Bill Clinton to President Bush, is it called a lie because we went to war. If it is a lie now, what was it when the Democrats used the same words President Bush used to convinced them to vote to go to war. In voting to go to war, the Democrats found themselves over a barrel on the very same words, they used to convince the American people about the threat of Saddam. The Democrats didn't vote to go to war on the lies made up by President Bush, they voted to go to war in another attempt to fool the American people that they were patriots. All the Democrats wanted to do was talk a good talk and look like they really cared about protecting the American people. When President Bush said those words, if your not with us, your against us, it was then that the Democrats decided whose side they were going to be on. Up to this point, can anyone truly say the Democrats pick our side against the terrorist. It was funny how fast Nancy Pelosi ran to Syria to mend fences with the Syrian President and then wanted to go to Iran to meet with Ahmadinejad. It was almost as if she was saying hey boys I'm one of you. This is Bush's war not our's.

Reid and Hanson
Reid's comments were wrong- no doubt. But on the polar opposite side, you have people like Hanson who seem to live in an echo chamber,

"There is nothing wrong with changing your mind, especially in matters as serious as war -- but the public at least deserves a sincere explanation for this radical about-face."

The people need to understand why someone believes that this war is irretrievable and we should leave? They need an explanation? No they don't. They already believe this - and every opinion poll for the last year has born this out.

I am on the fence, and share the view of congressional GOP we should re-assess in the fall. But limiting this debate to VICTORY

continued
or SURRENDER is demeaning to the people, and it is ultimately wrong by the troops. We owe them clear definitions of victory and we don't have any. Any attempt to give one is just a BS soundbite that has no basis in realpolitik.

War
I was a warrior. I spent 45 years working for DoD, including 20 on active duty. I studied the Art of War, strategy and tactics. One sure thing that I learned is that the debate by politicians should occur before committing the troops. Once the decision is made to go to war, whether or not it is morally justified to all concerned, the war will be prosecuted effectively only if the politicians present a unified front. Since Congress has demonstrated that it lacks the fuzzy kiwis to declare war, it would seem this is a recent political ploy. It is not:

“Commanders should be counseled chiefly by persons of known talent, by those who have made the art of war their particular study, and whose knowledge is derived from experience, by those who are present at the scene of action, who see the enemy, who see the advantages that occasions offer, and who, like people embarked in the same ship, are sharers of the danger.

If, therefore, anyone thinks himself qualified to give advice respecting the war which I am about to conduct, let him not refuse his assistance to the state, but let him come with me into Macedonia.

He shall be furnished with a ship, a tent; even his traveling charges will be defrayed, but if he thinks this too much trouble, and prefers the repose of a city life to the toils of war, let him not on land assume the office of a pilot. The city in itself furnishes abundance of topics for conversation; let it confine its passion for talking to its own precincts and rest assured that we shall pay no attention to any counsel but such as shall be framed within our camp.” [General Lucius Aemilius Paulus, surnamed Macedonicus, Roman general and patrician, c. 229-160 B.C.]

Defeat
Defeat is an event that takes place in the mind of an individual.

When a little cur dog decides he's beat, he is. When Sen. Reid decided he was beat, he was.
What bugs me is how Sen. Reid can decide everyone else is beat, too. He hasn't even been over to Afghanistan to ask me!

Nation Building is not War
We are not "at war" in Iraq. That was over long ago and we won. Currently, we are "nation building" bring "democracy" to an area that has been ruled by tyrants of one sort or another since Noah floated his boat. What our valiant troops are trying to do is impossible and anyone with an ounce of brains should have been able to predict this outcome. I did -- even before the we were done bombing Afghanistan in the winter of 01-02. Our troops have been disasterously led by morons without a clue to the territory and the people that they were engaging.

That Bush would try to foist a "democracy" (threee wolves and one lamb voting on what to have for lunch) on the poor Iraqis was insanity from the get-go. But, then again, what would you expect from a man who thinks that our US Constitution is nothing but a "G-- D--- piece of paper!" We don't even live in a "democracy" -- we live in a republic. Bush should have known this. Had we lived in a "democracy" he'd still be kicking dirt-clods back in Crawford and Al Gore would have been sworn in as president on January 20, 2001. Had Bush insisted that the Iraqis adopt a republican form of government and imposed a version of our constitution upon them, like MacArthur did with Japan after their defeat, things might have worked out a bit differently.

We started with thirteen colonies with great differences among them. The Iraqis would have had a headstart on us with their more numerous and equally divergent provences. A weak central government (like ours used to be) and strong provincial (state) governments might have worked and kept the Shia and Sunni from trying to tear each other apart and the Kurds from trying to split off into an independent Kurdistan. Sectarian wars would have been averted and Iran wouldn't have been able to waltz in and take control. Thats right, he who can destroy a thing, controls it. Thus, Iran controls Iraq -- thanks to Bush's blundering and complete lack of faith in his own country's founding documents.

It is time for Bush and Company to acknowledge the facts that our superb fighting men and women won the war in Iraq and through his own arrogance and stupidity he, and he alone, flushed their win down the toilet. Bush brought his mediocre checkers game to tournament of master chess players and the game of choice in the area is chess, not checkers.

Strategy
The Iraq situation is a failure of leadership. Why can't US military strategists prepare effectively to handel insurgency/guerilla tactics.It's been known since the Kennedy era,as shown by French experience in Viet Nam and Algeria that this is sort of thing was to be expected.Yet we failed to deal with it effectively in Viet Nam-The politcal will problem frequently cited as the reason for failure developed later in the game.In Iraq,rather than learn from the previous experinece we seem to have proceede as if it was in the bag. There was no planning for insurgency .
Considering that guerilla tactics were part of the succes of the American Revolution,where moslty amatuers won against the professional army of the world's largest power of the time,one woukld think we could understand and predict such tactics.

tanabear
"The legal basis for the war was WMD and the fact that Saddam would give these weapons to terrorists. The legal basis was an entire lie. "

Two responses:

1. EVERY serious person from EVERY civilized country believed that Saddam had WMD's and was seeking more. The fact that they weren't there when we invaded does not make EVERYONE liars.

2. Which part of the "23 formal causes for war" didn't you understand? You are exactly the type of person that VDH is referring to in this article.

23 formal causes v ulterior motives
You say "they even crafted 23 formal causes for war. So far only the writ concerning the fear of stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction has in hindsight proven false."

How about the controversy over ulterior motives which were being seen abroad as lead motives for the war (true or false?):

1. oil
2. Saddam's refusal to comply with US oil demands
3. reaffirming US military primacy (military industrial complex)
4. opportunism after 9/11 to finish 1991 (which then leads to a destructive undermining of the UN)

Lies, Facts, and Politicization
The fact "the fear of stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction has in hindsight proven false" doesn't imply the belief was an intended lie. Conflating the two is politicization, which is intentional, and might itself be considered a lie.

Another form of politicization is, as jagrmeister721 writes, "limiting this debate to VICTORY or SURRENDER", this false dichotomy "is demeaning to the people, and it is ultimately wrong by the troops," whether it's Reid calling the war lost or the Administration spinning that as defeatist, both of which are intentional and might be considered lies.

But I don't see Hanson engaging in that, but rather a search for something to believe again.

The General Population of the U.S.
The population of the United States, suckled by the Nanny State for at least the last forty years, currently lacks the resolve to fight a prolonged war. There will never be a diet of "Blood, Sweat, and Tears" on their breakfast table, at least while they possess the leg muscles capable of running from it.
The Democratic Party finds itself willing to throw away, along with the garbage from the weekend's just finished debauchery, honor, personal responsibility, patriotism , love of country, and any knowledge of past historical faux pas they might have had impressed upon them by their professors while they were on their way to the week end liberal demonstrations. In its place they support a platform of treason, betrayal, dishonor, surrender, and capitulation pandering for the self indulgent Nanny state weaned vote for a return to power. Eternal shame be upon them.

The hue and cry
by Senator Majority Leader Harry Reid, NV has been "the war is lost", yet he continues to support funding the killing of American soldiers until the fall of 2008.

Is there something totally berserk here? If "the war is lost" then doesn't that mean surrender, not fund on-going hostilities for another year or more?? Doesn't Congress control the "purse strings"?

If the war's lost and over Senator, stop the funding, period, and do it now...don't allow a single additional death, or casualty...

Mr. Reid won't bite the bullet and stop the funding, he wants to milk this funding udder for all the political butter he can churn out it........the lives of our warriors are far from his intended goal.

The current crop of leaders in Congress have shown their true colors as political opportunist of the worst kind.........and it must stop.

There is power in the United States Senate to bring the Reid, Levin, Pelosi fiasco to an end with the stroke of a pen..........

How you ask.........we all know the majority control of the Senate rests with Senator Joe Lieberman, I-CT. It's time for Senator Lieberman to exercise his influence, cast his allegiance to the other party which will put an end to the reign of Harry Reid, Levin, and other traitors in the Senate.

Will Senator Lieberman fulfill his promises to the troops, switch parties, and end the impasse on troop funding? Based on comments I've heard from Senator Lieberman of his supporting a win in Iraq, he has no choice.

YouSoMakeMeLaugh needs a reality check..
Considering the New York Times as a credible source and understanding that the 6 RINOs are like YouSoMakeMeLaugh, true libtards and have always been so is what's missing in this fairy tale...

What passes for the MSM as in for quite a few decades now has been the sounding board for the libtard, the seditious, and the parasitic...

No WMD's?
I don't know what some of you think, but I consider hundreds of artillery shells filled with still retrievable Sarin gas to be WMD's.
That's what has been recovered in Iraq, over time as the skirmish has continued. There is no question on this.

Harry
Hopefully the voters will see the error they made and vote the bastards back out in 2008.

Why Iraq is important
The Middle East is cut off from the functioning core of globalization for a variety of reasons, one of which is their religion, which discourages what we would call the "modern world" (free trade, communication, etc.). As a result, these countries offer no future for the young people, and as a result we get the 'wallers', the young men leaning against walls waiting for-what? As of now, jihad is one of the few options. If the M.E. (starting with Iraq) can be integrated into the functioning core of globalization, they will see hope for a future. Instead of leaning against the wall, foreign investment will bring jobs to them, or they can go to the jobs, like the Filipinos do now. That is the only way to secure peace, and that is exactly what Bush has in mind with this war.

Personally, I agree with the plan, but I don't believe that he has explained it well enough to the American people. Now we have a situation where over half of the young people in that area want to leave because their prospects are so dim if they stay. If we give them a reason to stay and the hope of a better life without jihad, there is a very good chance that they will take it.

BUT REID EXPLAINED!
C'mon Victor, Harry Reid explained that he didn't really say "The War is lost." What he meant was lost were his car-keys!

If you're having a bad day -- perhaps you woke up, turned on the TV and saw the frozen-face of Nancy Pelosi? -- come to my site (click on name above) for original humor about a diverse group: Ann Romney (!), Mitt, GWB, Fred Thompson, and George Bush. I promise you'll have a smile on your face -- and, just maybe, a song in your heart. Enjoy!

steve

WMD
Why is it that every one talks about wmd as neuclear? They are also different types of gas. I seem to remember 12000 kurds that were GASSED. It sure wasn't done with exaust pipes. This in itself shows he had wmd's Just not neuclear. Could you say that those types of weapons released in say a crouded subway wouldn't kill quite a few people?

SSGTRET
I agree about who should be in charge in Iraq. At the end of WWII, MacArthur didn't let the Japanese run their own country for years. In addition, he wrote their Constitution for them, so they would have a stable government that was sympathetic to US influence.

Moral_majority
And you you be imprisoned for gross stupidity

MMAJ.
While I support Bush in most areas, I think comparing him to Lincoln is just a little streach of the imagination. This is not just apples and oranges, its apples and kiwi.

"Lies"
The leftist and Bush haters have their mantra, Bush Lied, and they are sticking to it regardless of the facts. Hitler developed the art of the Big Lie but he has nothing on the current crop of leftist zombies. It's ironic though that this big lie is a lie about lying. Every major intelligence agency and every major government beleived that Sadam had WMD. Even his own generals beleived this. The fact is that his regime was so secretive and repressive that there was not good way to know for sure. It is entirely possible that even Sadam thought he had WMD but his underlings were afraid to tell him the truth. In light of Sadam's past history of using WMD on the Kurds, invading Kuwait, violating the cease fire, and general mass murder, what was Bush to beleive? THIS is why most Democrats supported the war! Now that the war is prooving tougher than they thought and now that they see a political advantage they are jumping ship.

Doc
Unfortunatly my friend you are right. Equally unfortunate is the factthat some of the pubs have jumped too. I guess they forgot when the going gets tough........

"Americans Go Home"
There is an article on townhall this morning (click onto townhall and not onto townhall columnists) recording the vote of a majority of the Iraqi Parliament to request American military forces to depart Iraq according to a timetable and to place an immediate freeze on additional incoming troops.

I have been watching that article for two hours now and so far not one single reader has commented. Why?

Sawdust,
"...The Middle East is cut off from the functioning core of globalization for a variety of reasons, one of which is their religion, which discourages what we would call the "modern world" (free trade, communication, etc.)"


I too have read Thomas P.M. Barnett's books "The Pentagon's New Map", and "Blueprint for Action". Very compelling and dead-on correct.

...Did you know that he is a Gore-Supporter?

Yeah. Wow. But the man makes a lot of sense.

tananbear...
and the rest of you liberal Defeatocrats, take off you blinders for crying out loud! Didn't you read what Maverick had to say about the 23 OTHER reasons that the Democrats signed up for the war? Now it's all about WMD? How convenient for you defeatists to come up with just one reason and then call that reason a lie. Don't you see that your assuption about WMD is a lie? They have discovered enough yellow cake to make several nuclear weapons in Iraq! I guess if you tell a big enough lie often enough, people actually DO believe it.

The fact that everyone including the Democrats and the entire Clinton administration believed that Saddam had WMD and that he was willing to use chemical weapons to kill innocent women and children does not bother you? The fact that Saddam was obviously willing to do something that heineous and that he was actually in bed with terrorists by supporting the families of homocide bombers should have set off an alarm in your brain. Obviously, he would willingly use his petrodollars to arm Al-Qaida terrorists with WMD. Bush was absolutely right in cutting the head off this snake. If it weren't for the quisling traitors like Pelosi and Reid, we would have had the backing of the rest of the world and have sent the message to the terrorists to back off.

Reasons for the War
Can anyone dispute this theory? We went to war when two strong forces united: The "oil patch" and the Israeli lobby. Same goals, different reasons. Belmont

Iraq War & Intelligence
I find it very interesting how the Republicans use the matter of faulty intelligence with the Iraq War.

Despite all of the subsequent "justifications" for this war, if you go back to President Bush's original justification it was because Iraq was threatening the US with WMDs. We all know that argument has been proven to be false.

The Republicans are quick to point out that America should overlook that justification because it was based on faulty intelligence. Let's ignore the fact that the intelligence may not have been faulty just manipulated in such a way as to support the start of that war.

So now we're left with overlooking the President's decision because the intelligence was wrong.

We now get people such as Mr. Hanson who attempt to hold the Democrats responsible for their vote to go to war initially. They try to paint the Democrats as being disingenuous because they have now changed their view.

I'm sorry, but where did the Democrats get their information to base their decision on whether the US should go to war or not?

I think I'm correct, but it WAS FROM THE PRESIDENT!

Ergo, if you are going to say that the Democrats need to be held to their vote, you also must hold the President to being liable. If you overlook the President's error, you MUST overlook the Democrat's error. You can't have it both ways that we overlook the President's error, but hold the Democrat's to their error.

Either way, except for the rabid folks who still feel that there were WMDs, no matter what the evidence, the reason for perpetrating this war was wrong. We made a mistake. You don't continue with a mistake just because you made it.

Dem supporters
When we're all hunkered in bunkers defending our front yards, I'll take President Bush in my bunker, and you can have Harry Reid. Okay?

"Let's Declare Victory and Go Home"
I don't remember what General I am quoting---maybe somebody else does---but toward the end of the VietNam war one of them said "Hell, let's just declare victory and go home". A majority of the Iraqi parliament has voted that we should scram. A majority of the US Congress has voted that we should scram. We can argue until hell freezes about what went wrong, since obviously we have not achieved the goals originally declared by our Neoconservative leaders. But if we just CALL this a victory and bring everybody home with flags waving and horns blowing, our local war-mongers may be satisfied and we can see an end to the carnage with everybody getting something. The war-lovers can cheer: "We won!". The war-haters can sigh with relief: "It's over."

Iraq War on Terrorism
Terrorist around the world know that if the news media shows some blood often enough on the evening news, America will cut and run. They have publicly stated this truth and they keep doing it in Iraq with their suicide bombers. And
the terrorist will eventual get the US out of Iraq and Afghanistan. The North Vietnamese knew it also and we lost the war in Viet Nam because we did not have the will to win.

My concern is that if we lose in Iraq and pull out will the terrorist leave us along and not attack us within the borders of the United States?

Flipflop: like a fish
If the rosiest scenario had actually taken place, those who are now declaring the war to be lost would be patting themselves on the back for their vision and genius in voting for the war.

Success has a hundred father's, a bit like Anna Nicole Smith's baby, and failure is an orphan.

Robert
From your post

"It is mind boggling that the Dems voted for the war. It is almost cowardly that the Dems who voted for it are now retreating from it."

A couple of questions.

In your life have you ever changed your mind on an issue? More to the point, have you ever changed your mind on an issue 4 YEARS after you made your decision?

Would you vote for those same Republicans now that 4 years ago you thought were "conservatives" that have now turned out not to be conservatives?

This is one of the biggest pieces of horse manure that I have heard in a very long time.

As most reasonable people progress and learn in life, they revise their feelings about issues as they age. Should we hold you to your same beliefs as when you were 16?

Quotes
Lilly, I'll quote another general from Viet Nam
as stated in the documentary 10000 day war. The top general of the N.V.A. said in interview that had we kept up the bombing of Hanoi at the rate we were instead of stopping, they would have been begging us to go to the bargaining table.
D.Judge, yes I learn from the past, but it doesn't mean I'll make the total blunder of supporting a lib.

Ted Kennedy
He declared the war a quagmire after 5 days. What vision. Quagmire, a noun, Land with a soft yielding surface. A difficult or irksome situation,ie the quagmire of bureaucratic regulations. Per Webster.

I guess he meant, war sure is difficult or maybe he thought we were still in Vietnam. Every since July of '69 he has been a little fuzzy.

Maverick, Gunny and Gabby
thanks for another consecutive victory against the left and a victory for "THE WHOLE STORY" not just the sound bites we hear every day.

The actual quote.
What Harry Reid really said was if we stay the course the war is lost and a change is direction is needed.

Reid also said the war cannot be "won" with just military alone and that a new direction with diplomacy is needed.

But, hey who is counting the 'if' word or conditions.

I can make such claims too.

"If I win the lottery, the war in Iraq is lost."

"Unless we fund the troops, the war is lost."

There, you all can now quote me on saying I said the "the war is lost".


Just quoting "the war is lost" is childish and dismisses the notion that VDH should be taken seriously.

The party of GIVE IN, GIVE UP!!
What do you expect from crooked, dirty Harry? He is owned by Move On and George Soris. The rest of the Give In, Give Up Party is jumping on the bandwagon so they can share the wealth that big George is spreading around. Wouldn't term limits solve a lot of problems????

RR

Robert
We probably agree more than we disagree.

I served in the AF from '67 to '71. Due to that experience, I always question my government's facts and I'm very reticent to go to war.

Right before his presentation to the UN, I happened to be in France where I visited a couple of cemeteries because of the historical significance. It again drove home my reticence about war.

I remember watching Colin Powell's presentation to the UN concerning WMDs. I just kept thinking to myself that this was the BEST information that we had to justify attacking another country. A few pictures of trailers in the middle of the desert? To say that I was underwhelmed is an understatement.

As far as the Democrats are concerned, I simply temper a bit of all of this. Keep in mind that the Democrats have been the minority party for the entire war until now. If nothing else, the Republicans did a superb job at quashing their voices on any issue of dissent. I don't think of the administration very highly on many issues. That being said, they are absolutely stupendous when it comes to getting out their message and suppressing the competition, so to speak.

Bubba
I wish people would be more specific when they say "WE didn't have the will to win. I dare say if you told any vet from V.N. or the M.E. that they didn't have the will to win you would get quite an argument.

driveby
"What Harry Reid really said was if we stay the course the war is lost and a change is direction is needed."

Wrong quote there genius!!

Predictable
For all you libs who "knew" what was going to happen in Iraq, care to make your predictions now of what will happen after we leave? Go ahead and include Afganistan and the greater ME in this prediction.

11 GOP congressmen went to bush
yesterday and told bush he had lost all credibility with their constituents and had better change things or the republican party was doomed.

i have to laugh at the hysterical comments by the 30 percenters (the 30% who still support bush and this war) who claim bush and they are victims of a massive conspiracy by the dems and the media.

the party that wants to accuse everyone else of claiming victimhood is the worst offender.

according to these 30 per centers, they know what is best of america and the only reason the rest of america doesn't agree is because they are victims of

liberal media
dems
aclu
activist judges
bill clinton
george soros
hilary clinton


waaaa waaaa waaaa

the biggets victims group in the country
the repubican party

hypocrisy thy name is republican

Eastlake joe
I went back and read your comments when I posted as Charleston. Thank you for your kind words. I have since got into a running battle with patriot and have had my previous nickname purged from this site. Oh well such is life in the big city but it took all 30 seconds to get back on so no big deal. Having grown up in Cleveland I have many fond memories of the place and am always saddened to hear things don't go well. As you age your memory loses it's sharpness but what does remain are the many good things that occurred to my family while we were there. Keep up the faith and you have my sincerest wish that your remaining time time takes a happy turn

apoplectic
You want a prediction of what will happen after we leave?

How about this one? Whatever the Iraqi people are willing to accept will happen.

Now how about answering this one. Given the predictions that the administration has made concerning this war, why should we believe ANY of their predictions? How many of their predictions have been correct.

Before you reply, read some of Ray LaHood's comments concerning his recent meeting with the President. Specifically, and I'm paraphrasing, any reports on the Iraq War have to come from General Patreus. The President and the administration no longer have ANY (my emphasis) credibility with the American public on this issue.

Israel and the Iraq War
Saddam was evil. We all know that now, even though we were very supportive of him when he was attacking Iran, we didn't protest when he gassed the Kurds when they revolted, and we didn't come to the aid of the Shia when they rebelled and were slaughtered. These 'reasons' and others were brought forth when we already had decided to go to war.

The most relevant truth in Hanson's column is that Saddam was awarding money to families of Palestinians who lost their lives attacking Israel. That was the main reason for the war in the minds of many Israel-first neocons. Sadly, they were in positions of enormous influence - Wolfowitz, Feith, Wurmser, Abrams, Perle, etc. - and successfuly help pressure us to invade. They were joined by chickenhawks, power-hungry exiles like Chalibi, end-time Christian extremists, and greedy segments of the military-industrial complex (remember Ike's warning!).

I'm a not anti-Israel, but our foreign policy is. Not deliberately, of course, but ultimately. The only hope for security and peace for Israel is negotiation and compromise. As long as Israel kept expanding settlements on the West Bank there was no hope of peace. And that old trite assertion that Arafat turned his back on an agreement that would have awarded Palestine 98% of its territory is spinning. But we can't take the time (and space) here to go into all the details involved. This whole Middle East mess was first rooted in American irresponsibility and favoritism in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. We should have shown genuine sympathy for both sides from the outset, as both have suffered enormously and both have strong arguments on their side.

Read Carter's book, if you can manage to open your mind long enough to get beyond preconceptions and prejudices.

Responses
To tanabear, re: "Bush Cultists".

Bill Clinton was only one of many Democrat political leaders in 1998 that declared Saddam was dangerous. There was in fact a letter sent to Clinton that year by some 20 Senators, nearly all of them Democrats, declaring Saddam to be dangerous and recommending action (unspecified) be taken against him.

There also was a formal resolution passed by Congress that year that states "regime change" in Iraq was the official position of the US.

In an interview at radio station WJR in Detroit in October of 2000, Condoleeza Rice (who was then only part of the Bush campaign; he would not become President until 4 months later) said "regime change" in Iraq would be part of Bush's foreign policy if he was elected.

To ysmml:

I read the article you linked. It came across as a handful of RINO whiners who are more concerned with getting re-elected than in national security. So what?

To belmont:

Yes, I can dispute your scenario. The "oil patch" and the Jewish lobby were all there in 1991, along with Saddam's army in full blown retreat. By your theory Saddam would have been deposed then.

To dogjudge:

Your first post is long on anger but short on truth. You wrote "...President Bush's original justification it was because Iraq was threatening the US with WMDs." This is the kind of LIE that the left has been telling for four years about the war.

If you check the President's actual words you will find the following.

He NEVER said Saddam was threatening us with WMD. He never even said Saddam was an imminent threat of any kind. He said Saddam was NOT an imminent threat but would become one if he wasn't stopped.

Both Bush and Rumsfeld said the war against terror would be long and hard. The exact words used by Rumsfeld were "...long, hard, slog."

When the Duelfer Report came out Bush reacted by saying the pre-war intelligence indicated there were mass numbers of WMD's but very little cooperation betweeen Iraq and al Qaeda. It appears now that the situation was reversed (not a verbatim quote).

Finally, if you read the Duelfer Report, and I mean the whole thing, not just the part you can use to bash Bush, you come to the inescapable conclusion that the only thing that ever "contained" Saddam's weapons programs was the economic boycott imposed on him in 1991 after the Persian Gulf War. From 1991 until 1996 Saddam's arsenal degraded from lack of money. In 1996 the sanctions were partially lifted under the "Oil-for-Food program, which Saddam immediately subverted to re-finance his weapons program. It says this in plain language in the Duelfer Report, but all we ever hear about that report was that it "proved" there were "No WMD" (another exaggeration).

However we got there, whether Saddam had lots of WMD and shipped them out before we invaded, whether he had only the ones we actually found, whether he was thick-as-thieves with al Qaeda or holding them at arms length, the one thing everybody seems to agree on is that al Qaeda will set up shop in Iraq as soon as we leave unless we leave behind a strong, nationalist Iraqi government.

Unless we know some other way to keep the US safe from another al Qaeda attack we need to stay and finish the job.


Religious lib
for a person of faith, who,we are led to believe, believes in compassion, you seem over joyed at the misfortunes of others. I think perhaps religious zealot is closer to the truth. Wanting to win is one thing, celebrating the misfortunes of others is quite perverse. Your postings indicate that anyone who disagrees with you is totally wrong yet you hide behind your own bigotry. Perhaps prayer and silent contemplation might be in order for you to see the flaws of your beliefs

dogjudge
"Now how about answering this one. Given the predictions that the administration has made concerning this war, why should we believe ANY of their predictions? How many of their predictions have been correct."

Who said you had to? How about doing a little freaking research on who the enemy is, what their plan is, and put some historical context into what they are doing. The answer becomes quite evident. No, the enemy will not follow us here per say. The goal all along has been to get us out of the ME so they can re-establish the caliphate. So I'll ask again, what do you soothsayers see happening after we bail?

Political Hacks
Harry Reid is my senator, and I cringe every time he opens his mouth...he is a nobody from a little spot on the road with a gas station and a grocery store, and has "worked" his way up in politics by being disingenuous and crafty (and he is bringing his sons along with him...they are mired deeply within Las Vegas politics) and he is no more qualified for his position than many of us. I get the idea he is wound up every morning like a toy soldier, and he marches out and says outrageous and stupid things being fed to him by someone else...he has not had a cogent original thought in years. He and his ilk will be voted out this coming election (I pray) and maybe we can bring intelligent reason back to the congress.

Title
The biggest joke is the title of this piece. This war is yours mine and every swinging Richard and Rachel in this country! When are you all going to wake up to this FACT? I don't like this or any war but those boys are over there for ALL of us and you better start figuring out how to get the war materials they need before you cut their throat. For god's sake people I don't care who voted for who or who supported our decision to go, Enough supported it that we went and curtailing the support to these guys is not the answer. And denying that you ever supported it isn't going to make it go away.

lilly - declaring victory
It was Senator Aiken, Republican from Vermont, who advised the US to declare victory, then leave Vietnam. Wise man. A real Republican.

I also am a real Republican. Tragically, our party has been taken over by neocons and assorted wild folks. No, I am not a RINO. People like me are the genuine, authentic, responsible people who have lost their party, and we need to take it back before it is ruined entirely and forever by assorted weirdos.


White Flag Party
My, My! There are a lot of Cowardcrats commenting this morning. It must be hard to crawl out of your hiding place to post a comment and then dive back in when something scares you!
GUTLESS, LIBERAL, HEATHEN, COMMUNISTS! THE LOT OF YOU!

Where Is The Leadership?
We are all engaged in a great arguement about shoulda, coulda, woulda nonsense and are being cleverly sidetracked by propaganda from both sides! The two parties have rigged the election process so as to assure themselves continued power. Neither side is concerned about the Constitution, rule of law, or the will of the people. When are we going to get it?? These elites have us convinced that they alone are capable of ruling this great nation and that there is no other choice. What else can you expect besides partisanship, even when troops are in harms way?
There is no leadership being provided here. Dems smell blood in the water and only seek to reacapture the Presidency. The GOP is desperate to hold power or go back into the wilderness for another 25 years.
Yet, the truth is, these same elites have been in total control for far too long. They do not fear acountability! They have us convinced there is nowhere else to go. Meanwhile, we, like sheep, have sold our birthright to them for a bowl of porridge called entitlements and pork barrell spending. We have given away our precious inheritance and ignored our solemn duty to govern opurselves as free men.
If, in this next election, which is a rare opportunity for change, we elect another Democrat OR Republican, we will have once again done the same thing over and over, expecting different results! Einstein called it insanity, and it is.
As a candidate for President in 2008, I offer a different approach and a restoration of the basic true values and principles which were given to us by our Founding Fathers. It is imperative that we not fall for the propaganda that these elites, who have made a mess of this great nation, are the ones to fix it! We need to break the cycle of partisanship that has replaced any kind of leadership. We can choose something else, we can reclaim our birthright, we can govern ourselves as free men! We need only make a leap of faith and discard old prejudices for either party and elect someone not of either party. We need someone with no loyalties to the party machines and big money.
If you care for this great country as much as I do, the I urge you to visit my website,
JOEOLIVAFORPRESIDENT.ORG.
In it you will find a different kind of thinking and a new approach to restoring the Constitution.
Check it out, you will not be disappointed, hopefully encouraged. Thanks, Joe

apoplectic
the sad reality that has set in is that we are dealing with a blood cult that has totally indoctinated the ME. They would rather remain 1000 years in the past while being ruled by murdering dictators who steal all the wealth while encouraging tribal rivalries and honor killings while keeping their women as essentially slaves. Is there hoipe for them down the road? Can our presence make any difference. At this point I would say no way at no time. I think the President was sincere in his belief that intervention could make a difference, but like others before him and probably others to follow this ME cesspool ain't gonna change. What we can hope for is that future leaders will tell them in no uncertain terms how we will retaliate should they export their killing blood cult here. We can't change them but we must defend ourselves and having troops there seems counter-productive. Is thios the right answer. I don"t know but haven't found anything else from following events to give me the slightest hope the ME wants any change whatsoever

One more response
To Robert:

You wrote "It is mind-boggling that the Dems voted for the war."

For the last 15 years the Democrats have voted according to opinion polls. They learned this from Bill Clinton who kept a full-time pollster, Dick Morris, on staff. He even made Morris his campaign manager (replacing James Carville) during his re-election run in 1996.

At the time the vote was held in Congress the opinion polls showed 65-69% in favor of taking out Saddam. Many Democrats who hated Bush and were chagrined that 9/11 had given him a chance to lead in war voted in favor of the war because they didn't have the stones to buck the opinion polls.

Did I say they didn't have the "stones"? I should have said they lacked the LEADERSHIP, because when you vote according to a poll instead of what you truly believe, you are not leading. You are following.

Regarding opinion polls, consider the following. These polls are taken by phone, on LAN lines, by calling residences during normal working hours. So anyone that actually participates in these polls doesn't have a day job. They are, largely, the Oprah crowd. So if you want the Oprah crowd running the country, just keep electing Democrats.


wiseone
I get a little tired of you folks trying to change history. Fortunately these days it's easy to retrieve information.

Bush DID justify attacking Iraq based on WMDs.

Here's a link to his January, 2003, State of the Union speech. Read it and then you can say that you are wrong.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/01/28/sotu.transcript/

As far as your other arguments about WMDs, including the "fact" that they were moved to Syria, or other locations, you're living in a fantasy world. You might even recognize some liberals there. They're the one's who say that Bush knew about 9/11 before it happened.

Please come back to the real world, we miss you.

"Unless we know some other way to keep the US safe from another al Qaeda attack we need to stay and finish the job."

Another fantasy. We do know of another way to keep the US safre from al Qaeda, it's known as fighting al Qaeda instead of refereeing a civil war.

There are ex-Iraqi War, American, generals and many Republicans (as in the ones who recently met with the President) telling you that you're wrong, why don't you pull your fingers out of your ears and start listening to some of them?


apoplectic
Before I respond to your question, please tell me that you are aware of Iran's history from about 1930 to now. Just a few sentences should cover the situation.

religiouslib
You say you are not a Communist but you keep walking the walk and talking the talk.

You Progressives keep forgetting why Clinton crippled our Intelligence Agencies to keep them fron spying on him while he sold American weapons technology to China.
That is why we had to rely mostly on foreign intelligence.

Here is what the Progressive Caucus was saying long before they met with Bush.
http://bullwinkleblog.com/?page_id=3287

For cowards who would use the name of this blog as an excuse, each statement comes with a source.

Polls?
I can't help but pity anyone so naive they still trust Polls.

Clevelandindians
You may be right, but telling them in no uncertain terms how we will retaliate will not slow them down either. They want to be martyrs. They pitched white tents in the middle of valleys in Afganistan with the hopes of receiving some Russian bombs. They do not think like us. It's why parents proudly send their children to be human bombs in Israel.

cleveland indians
well we have one thing in common.

i have had a few running battles with patriot myself. he gets very rude and crude very quickly.

i am not celebrating anything, i am simply stating a fact in the first part of my post.

in the second part i point out the irony of the fact that some conservatives always want to accuse everyone else of claiming victimhood while at the same time trying to claim the only reason their political philosophy is not dominate is that "everyone is against us and lies about everything".

posters like gunnyg, wiseone, lynne and others blame all the ills of america on liberals and democrats while never accepting responsbility for their own president or party.

it is always someone elses fault.

my opine
please educate yourself on what a communist is because you don't seem to know the definition.

i am a Christian, a small business owner and an elected official. i don't think that qualifies me as a communist except in your own world of us vs them.

we are all americans my friend, and the sooner you understand that disagreement is normal in democracies the better.


as far as polls i find it interesting that you believe the polls for repubublican presidential nominees and polls that support your point of view but you never believe polls that go against your politically correct conservative mantra.

do you believe mccain, gulliani and romney are the top three contenders or are those polls silly too.


dogjudge
You're tired of cons "changing history" and we cons are tired of guys like you changing your story (like a little kid caught with his hand in the cookie jar) when you get caught in a lie.

In your initial post you claimed Bush said Saddam was threatening us with WMD. Now that you've been called on your lie you say "Bush DID justify attacking Iraq based on WMD's."

Nobody ever said he didn't.

But "justify[ing]" an attack on Iraq based on WMD's is NOT the same as claiming Saddam was threatening us with them.

And you know it. You know one is true and the other is not. And you accused Bush of doing the one that wasn't true because it makes him look like a liar or an incompetent.

You know. It's kinda' like saying there were "No WMD" in Iraq when there just weren't as many as we expected to find.

It's also like saying "Bush DID justify attacking Iraq based on WMD's without mentioning any of the other 22 reasons which nobody is disputing four years later.

If you are so dedicted to the sanctity of history you should try not shading it or slanting it to suit your position. You should try adjusting your position so it conforms with history.

My Opine
"You Progressives keep forgetting why Clinton crippled our Intelligence Agencies to keep them fron spying on him while he sold American weapons technology to China.
That is why we had to rely mostly on foreign intelligence."

Hmm. So why is it, if we were relying mostly on foreign intelligence that those same foreign governments wouldn't support the American initiative to the US to attack Iraq?

No argument about the Democrat's statements.

Please clarify these issues for me.

Clinton versus Bush and Iraq. Saddam had thrown the UN inspectors out of Iraq, that was one of Clinton's main justifications for the bombing. Subsequent to the bombing the inspectors were back in Iraq. Remember, Bush had to tell them to leave because he was going to start a war. Your comparison does work. Have any other information that contradicts this point?

Democrats supporting Bush's War. Can you tell me where the Democrats get the information concerning the situation in Iraq, on which they make their determination? Could that be the President?

Now, and with that in mind, is there a possibility that the President just MIGHT have more information about the situation than the information that he releases to Congress? Given this administration's lack of credibility (as determined by the 11 REPUBLICAN Congressmen who recently met with the President) is there even a possibility that the President might have only released the information to Congress that he wanted them to see. You know sort of like Colin Powell's presentation to the UN.

dogjudge
I'm sure there is some agenda behind your question but why from 1930 to now? Do you mean like they were ruled by a "king" or Shah until 1979? Are you referring to which side they were on in WWII? How they were used by both the US and the Soviets in the cold war? Not sure of the relevance here. You need to go back much further than 1930 for a background. All the way back to the Sunni Shia split after the death of Muhammed.

Yes, tanabear,...

I agree that:..."Using Bill Clinton as a character witness then they have no argument."...

Bill Clinton is the "Krusty the Klown" of American politics. Vulgar and pathetic. Lovable to some, hate-able to others. Nevertheless, both are clowns and your statement about Clinton proves it.

********************************************

...""There was no debate that Saddam gave money to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers"....."Is this justification for an invasion?"

Yes! It was either an "invasion", or Israel would have to use nuclear weapons against Baghdad. If Baghdad, then Damascus and Tehran would, by necessity, have to follow.

If you remember the times of the Palestinian suicide bombings, you'll recall that they were nearly every other day and killed at least a half dozen Israelis and severely injured as many. Israel HAD to stop them. Hussein's real WMD was his unlimited income from oil that mad unlimited funding of this suicide bomber activity. It could have gone on endlessly. Israel could not have invaded Iraq. The logistics, politics and geography are against it. The only two choices for Israel were nuclear strikes by air on Iraq and, by implication, Syria and Iran would have to follow. Or have America invade Iraq by proxy, and that's what we did.

Like it or not, Bush made the best out of this bad situation and invaded Iraq to prevent nuclear war in the Middle East. Reckoning by the preparations that were made by the military regarding chemical warfare and medical facilities prior to our invasion, chemical weapon use by Iraq was expected and at least 10,000 US casualties were planned for. We got in lucky. However, Bush should have left Iraq once we had our hands on Hussein and only sustained a few hundred casualties. But Bush would not because of World Opinion and the "Pottery Barn" rule of civilized warfare in Western countries.

Had we left when we had Hussein and Iraq fell into internal chaos or became a battlefield between Sunni Syria and Shiite Iran, so be it. In any world conflict, so many humans are going to die. They may as well be Muslims killed Muslims than Americans or Israelis killed by Muslims. But that concept is, "uncivilized".

Can't libs ever tell the truth
I mean the real, unaltered truth. Not the truth after it's been modified to suit the liberal political agenda.

I refer specifically to lilly, who tells us "There is an article on townhall this morning (click onto townhall and not onto townhall columnists) recording the vote of a majority of the Iraqi Parliament to request American military forces to depart Iraq according to a timetable and to place an immediate freeze on additional incoming troops."

In fact this is what is written in lilly's own link.

"The proposed Iraqi legislation, drafted by the parliamentary bloc loyal to anti-American Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr, was signed by 144 members of the 275-member house, said Nassar al-Rubaie, the leader of the Sadrist bloc."

So what we really have here lilly is a DRAFT of a bill being pushed by Muqtada al Sadr that has not even been finalized for a vote. NOT a "RECORDED VOTE" as you claim.

Why do leftists feel compelled to embellish information instead of reporting it honestly? Maybe because forcing their viewpoints on others is the only 'truth' they know.


dogjudge
If you have bothered to read the statements YOUR Communist leaders made LONG before Bush repeated the same words you would not look so foolish.

As to your CONJECTURE that Bush or anyone else held back intelligence, that is pure fantasy on your part unless you can show proof.

MY comparison? What are you raving about?

wiseone
Try keeping your stories straight. You're not doing a good job at it.

At 12:07 you say, "In your initial post you claimed Bush said Saddam was threatening us with WMD. Now that you've been called on your lie you say "Bush DID justify attacking Iraq based on WMD's."

Nobody ever said he didn't."

However, at 11:32 you say, "Your first post is long on anger but short on truth. You wrote "...President Bush's original justification it was because Iraq was threatening the US with WMDs." This is the kind of LIE that the left has been telling for four years about the war.

If you check the President's actual words you will find the following.

He NEVER said Saddam was threatening us with WMD. He never even said Saddam was an imminent threat of any kind. He said Saddam was NOT an imminent threat but would become one if he wasn't stopped."

I guess I misunderstood when you said that it was a lie that the left has been telling . . .
Or did I misunderstand it when you say that Bush never said anything about the threats from WMDs?

Now if you want to go down that road farther, you complain about others talking about 22 justifications for the Iraq war. It's WAY past that. If you choose to look, which I know you won't because you've decided, the original justification for the war was ONE item. WMDs.

The University of Illinois, now exactly a left winged wacko group, has written up a proposal of the 27 reasons that this administration has used for this war. That paper was written a few years ago, so the list has grown.

religiouslib
I have read you claimes to be Christian & Holyer Than Thou crap before. You might as well try to tell me you are Elvis.

You constantly write like a HARD LINE COMMUNIST!
Like this;
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/printer-friendly.asp?ARTICLE_ID=44701


dogjudge
... says:

"Despite all of the subsequent 'justifications' for this war, if you go back to President Bush's original justification it was because Iraq was threatening the US with WMDs. We all know that argument has been proven to be false."

This is incorrect. Bush's justification was that Saddam had both WMD programs and ties with international terrorists, a set of circumstances with the strong potential to result in Saddam supplying WMD materials to terrorists.

I don't recall anyone but Colin Powell giving the erroneous impression that US intelligence, or anyone else, thought Saddam had the capacity to literally threaten the US from Iraq with WMD (or that he would have it soon).

It was a stupid war.

No Robert, it was a necessary war with a stupid ending. We should have left when we captured Hussein. The Bush Administration fighting the ACLU over the custody of Saddam would have been a humorous spectacle more preferable to the present tragic situation.

Perpetual Victimhood
The simple explanation for what is going on in congress is the liberal mindset of victimization. Therfore our i.e. congress's decision to go to war is not our fault it's (fill in the blank) fault. The liberal/marxist in America today is the most weak willed, spineless incompetant's imaginable. I'm afraid that the time is almost here for American Patriots to take up arms against our tyrannical government. At least we know that the fight will be short, it's plain to see that liberals don't have the will to fight for long and maybe (ha) they will put the blame on themselves when they lose.

Apoplectic
I think what I meant to say was to let them them what our target prioroities are. Sending bombs after the poor and downtroden in those countries will have no effect. As you say they are in a hurry to reach paradise.They breed like rats as that is how they measure their manhood so there is a never ending supply of willing volunteers in a hurry to get to allah and the virgins. No, we target the palaces, and all the places their leaders hang out. Kill the head of the snake and perhaps some of the body will shrivel. Let them know that mecca, medina and any other sacred cult site will be leveled so they understand the price they will pay. Using daisy cutters is not enough they only cover a football field size area. Drop a couple of MOABs that level much larger areas as examples. Am I a blood thirsty killer who wishes innocents to die? In the ME there are no innocents, they are either killers or enablers. They continually threaten and then enact their barbarity. Their mullahs tell them they can inflict casualties on us and we won't retaliate. They need a wake-up call and sending the first message via a cruise delivery greeeting card to Tehran to the mad mullahs and wachminajad to me is the first start. Call me sick and twisted butr history has proven you only stop your enemy when they will nbo longer pay the costs of continuing that war

Iraq
The Dems must say the war was a mistake from the beginning; otherwise their far-left money will dry up.

My Opine
Prove that Bush held back intelligence. As you are aware, that's next to impossible. At the same time, the administration controlled what information Congress did, or did not see. That fact is not in dispute.

Draw your own conclusions from there.

As soon as you start comments off with "your communist", I know that you have nothing more of value to say, so I won't respond. You may THINK that you know my politics, but you couldn't be further off the mark. Hard to make people think about issues if you agree with everything they say.

Iran and you don't understand. I wished that you had.

Short history for you. Prior to the the rule of the Shah of Iran, Iran's oil was controlled by a group that was not friendly to England or the US. England decided to "replace" the ruling party in Iran with a leader friendlier to them. The US decided to help England in their quest. Viola, we get the Shah of Iran and his son. Everything is fine with this puppet government until the Iranians decide that they don't like that government. Shah is overthrown and Iranian radicals fill the void. We now get our current mess in Iran.

Sound familiar? Think of Iraq.

NOW, I have a prediction for you. No matter what we do, 5-10 years after we're gone the Iraqis will determine what type of government they want. After we leave that's what will happen.

dyerje
You state your feelings about Bush's justification for the Iraq war. That's your prerogative.

I have given you a link to Bush's January, 2003, State of the Union address.

I only ask that you read that and then tell me where my interpretation is incorrect.

my opine
i am sorry but world net daily is not a respected credible source even among conservatives.

look who came up with that silly list.
i mean i could make a list that claimed you were a martian if i wanted to but that doesn't make it so.

how old are you anyway, you are stuck in the 1950''s with this communist stuff.

the communists have been discredited everywhere in the world and i guess the only one to still believe it is a viable force is you.

up until now i had credited you with intelligence but this is conspiracy nut stuff.


by the way opine
simply stating i am a Christian to rebut your ridiculous charge of communism is not being holier than thou, so quit your Christian bashing you atheist.

clevelandindians
I would agree with you if I thought the American public had the stomach for it. We can't even interrogate prisoners without an outcry. This after almost 3000 of our citizens killed. We may get to that point, but based on reactions so far, I think it will take a major catastrophe (around 50,000 or more dead) before the American populace gets that kind of resolve.

religiouslib
World Net Daily is considered a reliable source.
You can remain in denial if it pleases you.
Athiest?
You Communists are the Athiests.
But then I guess you could claim Communism as a religion.

Iraq
what difference does it make who said what or when it was said. This blood cult will not change nor will it be defeated with current strategy. The corrupt leaders of the blighted region have been able to convince their ignorant followers that we are out to destroy their cult religion. The average dimwit in the ME doesn't want change and they don't seem to want to give up the tribal killings they have perfected over the last thousand years. As well meaning as the president was this cesspool don't want cleaning up. Iraq was given a chance and even with help couldn't leave their centuries old mentality of tribal identitiy and honor killings subside. As with addicts you can't help anybody who don't want help or work to helping himself solve his problemsd. Perhaps the president would have been better advised to talk to people working with the 12 step addiction programs than seeking advise from the CIA

Active and Operative
"...Bush's justification was that Saddam had both WMD programs and ties with international terrorists, a set of circumstances with the strong potential to result in Saddam supplying WMD materials to terrorists."

More precisely _active_ WMD programs and _operative_ terrorist ties. Look it up, old speeches, both _active_ and _operative_ keywords were used in justifying Iraq/Saddam as a _grave_ danger such as supplying terrorists WMD--and not just nuclear as others have said.

Nothing found thus far rises to the level of _active_ and _operative_, thus, as VDH says, not proven. And not disproven either. Unknown. But not really the point though when that was what was believed as justification at the time by just about every leader in the West.

Other justifications included not complying with UN resolutions and Saddam's treatment of Kurds and other Iraqis.

Questions
Does the fact that (as far as the public is concerned) there have been no WMD found mean that they never existed at all? I would like to see just ONE public official of EITHER stripe answer that question.

Because either way that question is answered it opens a can of worms that our public officials don't seem anxious to open.

I believe that they did exist, and do now. I believe that Hussein destroyed some when he realized that President Bush meant what he said, as opposed to President Clinton. Hussein shipped some out of the country (Iran, Syria, Lebanon and Russia), he sold some and some have not been discovered yet. I believe that allied forces have made some discoveries that are so horrendous that the public is not being told.

The issue of the WMD is not going to go away. It has not been resolved because it has not been addressed. Why not?

dogjudge
I just use "Communist" as a generic term.
What euphemism do you prefer to cower behind?
Progressive?
Socialist?
New Age Democrat?
New Left?

That other stuff you rant on about that does not address my post?

I guess it means something to you but all it means to me is you are trying to obfuscate the issue.

apoplectic
as long as we have those in this country who think acting nice will save them there is no chance. Code pink, moveon.org Pelosi and Reid and the rest of their ilk won't be moved, is that a pun, until a disaster of the magnitude like you posted occurs. Dr. Savage maintains that the crazies can do some damage, and that it can be quite horrific, but they lack the military strength to defeat us as long as we maintain the will to defend ourselves.But there are segments in our society that will never do that and would rather surrender to the blood cult than maintain our freedoms

Plebescite NOW.
Alright here it is: My democrat friends are constantly insisting that the majority of Iraqis want us out now; I dispute this and frankly I am far from the only one. There is a simple way to settle this matter, though I labor under no illusions that it will happen.

I suggest that the government of Iraq organize a plebescite; ask the average Iraqi citizen in no uncertain terms if they want US forces to leave or wait until their own military/police force is stronger and more organized. As a conservative who has always supported this action, I personally would cease all argument about remaining if Iraqis demanded we leave. I can only wonder if the staunchly anti war left would respect a vote for us to remain; if not, then their "Iraqis want us out!" argument would prove to be just another talking point they don't actually believe.

dogjudge
"Short history for you. Prior to the the rule of the Shah of Iran, Iran's oil was controlled by a group that was not friendly to England or the US. England decided to "replace" the ruling party in Iran with a leader friendlier to them. The US decided to help England in their quest. Viola, we get the Shah of Iran and his son"

Yep just like that. Except the Shah was replaced 38 years earlier in 1941. A father was replaced with his son. Who do you think would have replaced the father anyway had he finished his rule until death? (Hint, the father named his own successor). That is what you were getting at with the Iran question? In that case, nevermind trying to answer my question. You clearly are having trouble with cause and effect.

Is this war WINNABLE?
I’m a retired Naval Officer who was involved in both Gulf wars. I’m a political “right winger”; initially in favor of the war, which should have been concluded in Gulf War 1, but due to mismanagement, was not. So it’s no surprise that Gulf War 2 has been similarly hosed. Though far from being a Liberal, I share one thought in common with them: This war may have passed the point where it’s “winnable”. The problem is that if it’s not; the consequences of a Fundamentalist take over are too horrific to contemplate. So what’s my solution? I now no longer have one.



congress-critters
I was in the USArmy for the first half of my adult life and a HUMINT operative in an alphabet agency until my retirement for injuries suffered in the service of my Beloved Country.I've seen God-awful, pandering fools in charge of our military (i.e. SHAPE-Supreme Headquarters Allied Powers Europe) Ramsey Clarke. I've seen gifted men in charge of the military like Colin Powell.

Through all of this bull, I've noticed one thing that should stand out like a sore thumb to any person with the IQ of a chipmunk, the US military is incapable of being beaten. I've also noticed that the ONE way America can be beaten is for the fools on the Hill (congress-critters) to stick their noses into places they don't belong.

There is NOTHING in the Constitution that allows these worthless politicos the power to control the military. Only one of them has the authority of Commander-in-Chief, that is President Bush and he has a tendency to micromanage enough, without help from the peanut gallery. If these fools on the Hill would tend to their own knitting and the Pres would finally grow a pair and let the Generals on the ground prosecute the GWOT as the situation on the ground demands this would have been done with at least a year ago.

clevelandindians
That brings us back to Iraq. We know the American people will not support what needs to be done so Iraq was a more viable alternative. It was worth the attempt no matter how it turns out. The alternative will be much, much worse in the long run.

dogjudge
When you reread the president's 2003 SOTU speech, you either have difficulty with reading comprehension, or you confirm the conclusion I outlined above.

Possibly, however, some readers don't know enough about weapons of mass destruction, and what they actually are.

When Bush spoke of the potential of anthrax or sarin to kill thousands or people or more, he did not mean Saddam would somehow lob these agents into the US with missiles. Anthrax would not even be delivered this way. Delivery methods for chemical agents (sarin, VX, etc), as referenced in his speech, did not mean ICBMs, or even medium-range ballistic missiles. It meant the same method by which Saddam delivered chemical agents against Iranians and his own people: battlefield missiles, rockets, and mortar artillery.

Weaponizing a biological agent is a different matter, but Bush didn't say Saddam was going to attack the US with biological agents either: what he said was that it would be dangerous to allow Saddam to remain in power, in possession of such agents, with his penchant for invading his neighbors and chemming his own people -- and with his ties to international terrorism.

When Bush spoke of Saddam possibly conducting an attack with military weapons, specifically WMD, his precise concern was Saddam attacking his neighbors in the Middle East. Read the words. That would have been within Saddam's power. Bush did NOT say Saddam would attack the US with such weapons.

Instead, he refers toward the end of the speech to the emerging threat of Saddam, with WMD programs and some amount of materials, supplying those materials (and perhaps technology) to terrorists, who could in their turn mount an attack on the US.

This may not change your mind, but you need to understand that it's not sophistry: it's knowledge. It's clear to me that I know far more about WMD than you do, based on the fact that I accurately understand what the president is saying in this speech, while you take away from it only vague impressions.

I have thought for some time that one of Bush's main errors was in letting others in his administration do most of the talking for him, in public discussion of the Iraqi WMD problem -- and in possibly assuming too much about the public's understanding of WMD. It seems that most people hear "WMD" and think of nuclear warheads and big missiles mounted on tracked launchers. That was not the issue with Saddam -- AND NO ONE, MOST ESPECIALLY US INTELLIGENCE, EVER SAID IT WAS.

If I could rewrite the 2003 SOTU, I would speak more emphatically and memorably about the potential for chemical, biological, and nuclear materials to get into the hands of terrorists, in small but broadly lethal quantities, and via transport methods that are virtually impossible to detect. Given the general ignorance on WMD, and the hallucinatory ideas of a Red Army missile parade that many people seem to harbor when they think of "the intelligence failure on Iraq's WMD," it's clear that Bush and his speechwriters could have done a better job conveying the intelligence to the public.

But your view is from the outside, and the perspective of the uneducated public. Having been directly familiar with the actual intelligence, with the justifications that sent us to war, and the operational execution orders that actualized the president's intent (endorsed, as VDH points out, by Congress, on 23 counts against Saddam), I can tell you that what I have said is what the administration thought, said, and went to war on.

clevelandindians
What station is Mike Savage on now?
I used to listen to him on KSFO 650AM until he came on a little too strong one day and the station gave him the boot.
He does come on strong sometimes but I like to listen anyway.

Bush gets B*tch slapped...
...by 11 GOP congressmen and now he is for "Benchmarks". Why didn't he listen to the Democrats before being humiliated by his own party, the fool.

my opine
you can delude yourself all you want but the proof is that only one or two people on this conservative post ever use world net daily because it is a joke as a news organization.

as far as my religious beliefs, if you are not an atheist than quit making negative comments about my Christianity.


my opine
savage the other day said the war is lost and bush is to blame.

apoplectic
Of course the easy solution would be taking out the mad mullahs and wachminajad as well as their syrian puppet assad. Can it or would it be done? Not at this stage. But let the military fight and win. They are probably more frustated that they can't do their job since the pres and congress is tying their hands. Wars are not fought to become a holding action as Korea has proven. If you must fight, do the job and finish it asap. We have a great military , give them the objective and let them work the solution. Micro managing from washington did johnson in and is likewise defeating bush. Without the interfearing of Iran and Saudia Arabia tghis thing might have ended years ago, but neither wants to see a susccessful Iraq as they fear their own people would like a new arrangement and that spells the end for the mad mullahs as well as the thousands of parasitic royals in Saudi Arabia bleeding away the oil wealth

Its not only Bush
religiouslib writes: Thursday, May, 10, 2007 1:35 PM
my opine
savage the other day said the war is lost and bush is to blame.

Well, its not only Bush, but that whole rightwing neocon crowd too!

Myopine
my best guess would be to google. We have him locally but he is all over the place with his discussions. I think he has gotten frustrated over the dims surrender and the president adapting a bunker mentality

Communists got NUTHIN on these guys.
For those of you who think that pulling out is wise, I urge you to get a closer glimpse of the enemy:

"The Philosopher of Islamic Terror" (long, but worth the read)

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F01E7D91731F930A15750C0A9659C8B63&sec=health&spon=&pagewanted=1

The author, Paul Berman, is not exactly a GOP mouthpiece.

Even Salon.com admitted:

"Bush is an idiot, but he was right about Saddam"

http://dir.salon.com/story/books/int/2003/03/22/berman/index.html

Omigosh!
I am laughing so hard at the libtards on this board, but I really find the so called 'I am a better conservative than you are' people even more revolting. WMD's was not nor has it ever been the legal reason for going to war. Seventeen UN resolutions however are. I expect the liberals to be stupid because they just can't help themselves, but those who think "nation building" is bad need to realize you have to. When a vacuum exists it will be filled. That is why we had the Marshall Plan after WWII! If we left after the fall of Saddam that vacuum would have been filled with Saddam, Mookie, Iran, or what ever terrorist group of the day decided to take over. They like the oil money folks. Furthermore, when you say this goofy stuff it tells me you don't get the big picture. How many more years are you willing to tolerate terrorism around the globe. Getting off of oil won't solve it either. It's not about oil it's about dominance. If we don't buy the oil China and India will be more than happy to do so. So they will still get the money either way. And what about the more moderate countries in the ME? Like Jordan. Give the terrorists a foothold with legitmate resources and you will see a much broader conflict in the ME which equals economies all over the world crashing.

religiouslib
You keep insulting real Christians and running to cower behind your claim that you are a Christian.

I have NEVER seen you take any position other than extreme hard right.
Your leaders are all Communists, you defend them and lie to try to hide the fact that they are Communists.

If you are really as naive as you claim, you don't need to take my word for anything, just;

Google Communists in Government
google Democratic Socialists of America

Then come back and tell me you are NOT a Communist!

MyOpine
Communists

No you use the term to demean, or disparage others. Pejoratives when you can't discuss issues. The tactics of a bully

Others here can discuss things without resorting to such things.

Once you learn to discuss things like an adult we can go further.

Until then have a great day.

Correction
Extreme hard LEFT

dogjudge
I simply call em as I see em.

I notice you are not bashful about calling other people names they would find objectionable.

It is not possible to run off and hide from what you are.
You support Communist leadership every time you post.

I hope you don't think The Progressive Caucus is some kind of dark secret. EVERYONE KNOWS!

Your pompous objections will not change anything.

Mike
This war was a CENTCOM Operation -unlike Afghanistan, which was run initially by the 5th SOG. In 2003, we had a military that was still essintially a Clinton military. General Franks wanted a Europe, WWII style operation. This could have worked, but for Turkey. Without the 4th ID being staged in Kurdistan and attacking from the north, the operation was doomed to failure. Speed was essiential, and that was one thing that was missing.

Another problem was a lack of resolve to bomb "civilian" targets and major infrastructure points. We also didn't warn Syria and Iran to stay out. The DOD completely failed in this regard. The problem wasn't lack of soldiers, but a failure of nerve. Rice and Powell demanded that CENTCOM keep the operations in Iraq, despite early intel saying that there was plenty of Syrain and Iranian military traffic going in and out of Iraq.

France had a very similar insurgent problem in Algeria (1956-1958). General Preterous is using the same model that the French did in Algeria. The French "attack and hold" method worked very well and the insurgents were defeated in 1958. With less than 120,000 troops they pacified a population of 30 million- but in the country and in the cities.

This is proxy war with the President on one side and the Democrats and Iran on another. Al Qaida is their proxy.

dyerje
I wouldn't assume that I am naive when it comes to chemical compounds. Although I admit I am far from an expert, I think the University of Illinois would disagree support my knowledge of chemistry.

As for Bush's 2003 SOTU.

"Imagine those 19 hijackers with other weapons and other plans, this time armed by Saddam Hussein. It would take one vial, one canister, one crate slipped into this country to bring a day of horror like none we have ever known.

We will do everything in our power to make sure that that day never comes."

Now, could you please explain to me how this ISN'T intended as meaning that Saddam has WMDs and is planning on using them against the US.

As far as your other comments, you avoid the issue.

One minor point, that I find fascinating with folks with your perspective. You are fond of citing the fact that one of the reasons for this war was the fact that Saddam violated the UN sanctions against him. At the same time, Bush was NEVER able to get an authorization to attack Iraq because he knew that he couldn't get it.

With the aforementioned in mind, Bush attacked Iraq because HE wanted to do it. If the UN sanctions were the make or break point for his justification, the UN NEVER authorized Bush to do anything. It wasn't Bush's decision whether to enforce the UN sanctions, it was the decision of the UN!

I had hoped to have an intelligent discussion on the issue with you. Apparently that is not possible.

My Opine
The libs think nothing of calling people names especially the President, but they run off and cry when you throw it right back them. As always eveidenced by Ann Coulter. Religious lib thinks that by posting with that label it somehow will carry more weight with the conservatives on this board.

Apparently, THIS war (of words) is lost
Wow! So much energy being wasted arguing about how we got into this mess (in Iraq). Why not spend some of that energy talking about how we get out of it? One condition: unlike Vietnam, your solution should NOT result in the deaths of millions of innocent lives.

Sadly, neither party is showing any leadership in this regard. Makes me wonder if a solution exists. I remember reading about a Civil War battle that turned the tide of the war - only because U.S.Grant was willing to spend the exorbitant cost in human life to win the battle. I don't think any military leader today could pull off such a thing.

The rapid and easy access to information requires that someone in leadership (for either party) starts detailing a plan of action, along with contingency plans AND a proposed timetable, to solve this crisis and get us out of there. Right now, the onus is on the Republicans since the Dems will win by default. However, that table will turn shortly after they gain power.

I like one thing I heard on the radio this morning by Colonel David Hunt. He was asked how we should respond to the Iraqi leadership's intent to take 2 months off. He basically said, if they go on vacation now, send the troops home and let them deal with the mess when they get back.

Revisionist history . . .
Yes, the Clintons said Saddam was a threat. They also warned the Bushies about Osama Bin Laden. But the Bushies did nothing. That's why we were hit on 9/11. It had nothing to do with Iraq. But Bush had to do something to cover his butt, so Iraq seemed a convenient diversion.

Yes, a whole bunch of Democrats went along for the ride--including, in particular, the woman all of the latent mysogynist conservatives love to hate, Sen. Clinton. But let's not forget the bill of goods we were all being sold at the time: The Vice President of the United States gave repeated speeches saying that we had undisputable evidence that Saddam was about to obtain nuclear capability and that Saddam was linked to 9/11; the Secretary of State backed up the weapons claims at the United Nations; the President of the United States said in his State of the Union address that Saddam had just recently obtained yellow cake uranium from Niger; and the National Security Advisor stated publicly that if Saddam was not removed we could expect mushroom clouds to be forming over the U.S. Significantly, not one of these individuals claimed to be relying on Clinton Administration-era intelligence; rather, all of them said their statements were based on recently obtained, verifiable information. Then, to top this all off with an absolute deal closer, they told us one other thing: with Iraq's oil revenues, the war would pay for itself. It wouldn't cost us a dime. And it would all be over in a few months. Who could be faulted for supporting military action to take Saddam out under these circumstances?

Turns out, though, that it was all BS: No WMD; no nukes either--the documents they relied on were forged and, oh yeah, the head of the CIA had told the White House that there was no evidence of nukes or of any connection between Saddam and 9/11, but the Vice President, the Secretary of State, the President, and the National Security Advisor all somehow forgot to tell us; and there are no oil revenues to pay for the war--instead, its cost U.S. citizens hundreds of billions so far and it continues to cost us an additional $2 billion a week. Thousands of U.S. soldiers are dead, and tens of thousands more are maimed. At least 50,000 innocent Iraqi civilians are dead. And by any objective measure, the Greater Middle East region is less stable, and the U.S. is less secure, today than the day before the war started. Who could be faulted for believing now that the right course is not to continue with the war in Iraq? Indeed, how could any intellectually honest person conclude otherwise?

Its Bush's war. He wanted it. He sold it. He mismanaged it. And now he doesn't even have the decency to at least begin cleaning up the mess he made before he slinks out of town.

Oh but karenkc...
Wasn't you or was it religious lib that said the MSM is conservative? So which is it? You are the one devoid of facts, history, critcal thinking skills and just plain common sense. So tell us what color is the sun on your planet?

ScottA
I love your comments about the Iraqi parliament taking two months off.

Dennis Hastert happens to be my representative. Needless to say, he and I don't see eye to eye on a lot of issues. That being said, I recently wrote him about the vacation idea. How ANYONE, no matter which side of the issue they are on, could not be upset with that entire thing is beyond me.

Although I disagree with the President on most issues concerning this war, I would like to see him exhibit his determination with the Iraqis more.

You say, look you've got six months (or whatever) to resolve all of this. If you resolve it great. However, if you don't resolve it, we're going to impose a solution. You may like that solution even less. Six months after imposing our solution we're out of here.

I realize that it's idealistic, but giving the Iraqis an open ended time frame, while we dump tons of money, and American lives into this doesn't appear to be working. I don't see where they have an incentive to solve the problem, so to speak.

We need something new.

WISEONE
Thank you for checking out "lily's" fish story about supposed Iraqi "legislation" seeking the withdrawal of US troops!

I had a feeling lily was feeding us a load of "BS" so I didn't investigate myself, but it's always nice to know what the facts really are.
To answer your question: "Can't libs ever tell the truth?"
It would be nice if they could...we would have much more interesting debate and our county would benefit.
As it is, all we get from these folks is "spin" and outright distortion of reality.

Thank goodness there are still some clear thinkers around here. Wisone you are one of the best.

PS: Karennkc-enough with the cut and paste already!


truthteller
Love the paranoid grand conspiracy theories. Yep that's fact alright...sure...wanna buy a bridge?

gunny, et al
"If it weren't for the quisling traitors like Pelosi and Reid, we would have had the backing of the rest of the world and have sent the message to the terrorists to back off."

You are a pip! How droll! The rest of the world? Stop it, you're killing me! The mirth, Sir! The revisionism!

I'm a quiver, waiting for the moment when you all denounce, as lily livered communists, those generals, grizzled and battle hardened in Iraq, now battering your boy and his war.




Will we ever win again?
How many cop-outs will it take? Who thinks we can expect a volunteer force to run out on a limb
again, realizing that at best, political correctness will make it "mission Impossible".

Minimalizing our military efforts began before
many of you were born. There was so much guilt over winning WW2 that we began to place targets off limits in North Korea, sent our B29s home early in the war saying there were no more "strategic" targets. Again, we let the foot soldiers get chewed up. No, I am not talking about "the bomb"; I am talking about the "will".

Many of you will remember "vividly" that in 1968
in the middle of the war, Pres. Johnson and our
civilian at State and Defence decide to "stop bombing North Viet Nam. And 4 years later, finally the B52s were sent in on the Linebacker 2
Christmas season raids. They took heavy losses until 11 days later they had cleared out the SAMS and AAA, one Aircraft Commander discribed his mission as like flying over Kansas. At that point, we could have rendered the north incapable of taking over the south for a decade at least. At that point the Civilian warriors in Washington "threw in the towel again".

Someone needs to remember the famous quote from
"Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid;" There are no rules in a knife fight"!!!!

When Rumsfeld morphed into McNamara and Mclellan Powel headed State the possibility of winning
all but disappeared.


karennkc
According to karennkc, "Disclaimer: As most ignorant townhallers do not read the paper and only get their "news" from these blogs I have no intention to responding to your inane and childish comments."

Well, I see you've put us all in our place. Too bad, the truly ignorant and you and your kind that pop in, spout off, then leave. You libs think you're so smart and have it all figured out, but in reality, you're just full of hot air and hate. If you bothered to learn something, you would know that tax cuts actually help the economy, not hurt it. That means the gov't takes in more revenues. Judging by your comment, you don't know squat about townhallers or what we read. Just because you speak doesn't mean wise words are coming out. If you're feeling so froggy, maybe you should scurry on out to one of your windfarms and help keep those fan blades turning. In any case, if you don't like reading Townhall, then leave.

Our War
I have never heard as much bitching and whining in my life as the Dems. They like to forget that Saddam was shootiing at our planes EVERYDAY in the U.N. sanctioned "No-Fly Zone". Luckily he was a terrible shot. AS far as going into Iraq; after September 11, 2001, Saddam was just next on the a**hole list.

And if you so-called "Patriotic" Democrats would fight terrorism as intensely as you fight The President of the United States, we would have been out of Iraq and halfway across Iran by now. The War Against Radical Islam is going to gone on for decades, until they are destroyed or we are.

Hey Liberal Democrats, what color burkhas are you going to pick out? I myself will die before I submit.

the current mess
this continuing argument over how and why we got there is pointless. Unless you are the missus clinton and think you can turn back as well as what ever position she finds uncomfortable today the president needs to find a way to lead us out of this mess. I think we are in the midst of a proxy war between Iran and Saudia Arabia over which branch of the blood cult is going to control the ME. If I am wrong, please correct this idea. Iraq is both meaningless and unwinnable until we deal with the two leading protaganists. Syria is somewhat irrelevant as it is only Iran's puppet stooge but is transporting weapons and killers into Iraq.Until we can find the way to get the US out of the middle of the proxy war and let these Iran and Saudia Arabia confront each other what will we accomplish.

lolo
actually lolo i also post at slate.com under the same name and i get bashed here for my religion than at the more liberal website.

you know what they say about those who assume right.

Cal Bear
I haven't been following that discussion.

At the same time, here's a link going back to AP.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070510/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_politics;_ylt=AvPOCf38cjgAMDudiW3c.8lvaA8F

truthteller
truthteller?
You Progressives can sure obfuscate the language.

You complain that Bush is not cleaning up HIS mess before leaving office;

Your own Progressive Causus is doing their best to prevent Bush from finishing this war.

It is a pity people like you put Party before Patriotism.
It costs many innocent lives by prolonging a war that should have been over long ago.

Bush's war?
Democrats PURCHASED DEFEAT by tampering with this war.
Reid said Democrats will gain seats by his claiming defeat?
THERE IS NO WAY Democrats can recover from their mistake in tampering with the GWOT.
Should we loose it is because the Democrats hampered the war effort.
Democrats own defeat!
But WHEN we win it will be IN SPITE of Democrats hinderence of America and Democrats aiding the enemy.

Democrats politicized this war.
All the Democrats had to do was act like Americans during wartime and they would share equally in victory.

Bush's war?
We were LONG AGO dragged into an ancient cultural war that has gone on for centuries and is unlikely to end very soon regardless of how many wishful thinkers would like to see peace in the ME.
Myself among them!

dogjudge
I don't know what you know about chemical compounds, but I do know that you don't speak like a person who actually knows what US intelligence said about Saddam and WMD before 2003, or who knows what constitute WMD and how they may be delivered. This is a distinction I recognize, because I am such a person. If you know what intelligence actually said, you have the perspective to recognize the difference between that, and what the news media imply that intelligence said.

Well, that's more for other readers here who may be interested in my bona fides. I realize I won't change your mind.

A couple of comments. You quote Bush as follows:

"Imagine those 19 hijackers with other weapons and other plans, this time armed by Saddam Hussein. It would take one vial, one canister, one crate slipped into this country to bring a day of horror like none we have ever known.

We will do everything in our power to make sure that that day never comes."

... and then ask:

"Now, could you please explain to me how this ISN'T intended as meaning that Saddam has WMDs and is planning on using them against the US."

Do you really need that explained to you? Bush refers here to the terrorists being ARMED by Saddam Hussein -- not being given a mission by, or taking orders from, Saddam Hussein.

Bush knows perfectly well that international wahhabists operate on their own authority, and choose their own targets. Nevertheless, they have routinely acquired cash, intelligence, passports and other documents, training facilities, training, safe haven, and ARMS from state sponsors.

If Bush had intended to talk about Saddam giving terrorists their mission to attack the US, as well as providing them with chemical agents, he would have said so. In the sentences quoted above, he spoke of Saddam providing WMD agents to terrorists.

Possibly you don't understand that this form of support could occur, and most likely would occur, without Saddam (or another state sponsor) necessarily ordering a specific attack, or being involved in planning it, knowing when and where it would occur, etc.

The news media won't make that clear; it's understandable that the average person wouldn't know it. The SOTU is not the best place to go into explanations about that, but even so, Bush's wording doesn't seem confusing to me. He doesn't once say that terrorists are functioning as an army for Saddam -- rather he is speaking in the context of the state sponsorship of terrorism.

And perhaps what people think of in THAT regard is Muammar Qaddhafi and the Berlin nightclub, or Lockerbie, back in the 1980s -- specific bombings that Qaddhafi DID order and carry out. This isn't what Bush is implying about Saddam in the 2003 SOTU. Saddam COULD have done something like that, but the more likely problem was him arming the international wahhabists who strategize and pick their targets independently.

Again, I think Bush and his administration could have done a better job educating the public on these distinctions.

The other comment: the UN sanctions argument is a strawman here, since I haven't invoked it and don't intend to.

I also don't accuse Clinton of being at fault for 9/11, or for the historical assessments of US intelligence on Iraq's WMD. Just getting that out of the way in case you were going to go there next.

dyerje
Thank you for your clarification.

I, in fact, misunderstood you at first.

That being said, I could go in to other things, but I doubt that they would change your mind. I understand that.

We are now in a discussion of semantics. I feel as if I'm discussing things with Alberto Gonzales. I don't mean that as a derogatory comment. My meaning is that you have to both craft things in an extremely specific manner AND you have to listen to those responses in an equally, if not more, specific manner.

Now if you can just give me the meaning of "is" we'll be in agreement. (Meant as a joke)

Nation building was NEVER authorized
Go back and read the original war resolution passed by Congress in October 2002. There is NOTHING in it about nation-building, implanting democracy in Iraq by military force, or anything of that nature.

The war resolution specifically dealt with a perceived existential threat to the West: Saddam's history of aggression, his support for terrorism, and his alleged arsenal of WMD. And America's need to remedy that situation with military force if necessary.

I would argue that those goals were accomplished. Long ago. There are no more caches of WMD in Iraq worth fighting over. Saddam and his two sons are dead. It's hard to imagine the Baathists or even the minority Sunnis ever becoming dominant in Iraq ever again.

True, the October 2002 war resolution did cross-reference the 1998 Iraq Liberation Act. But that Act only dealt with providing "humanitarian assistance" (or, unspoken, covert operations) to help Iraqis transition to democracy. Not an all-out military campaign.

Despite that, Bush has continued to wage war for other purposes: The neo-con theory that the way to fight Islamic radicalism is to implant democracy in Iraq by armed force and hope that it spreads like a virus to the rest of the Islamic Middle East.

Whatever you think of that theory (and I don't think much of it), the fact remains is that this type of war was NEVER authorized by Congress in its original war resolution. In fact, it wasn't even debated in Congress.

Employing military force in a way that was unauthorized by Congress and done without their knowledge, and in a way that was never explained to the American people either, may not be an impeachable offense--but it's coming close to it.

It's long past time the neo-cons told the truth and said THIS is why we REALLY wanted this war--we wanted to reinvent the "white man's burden" and bring Western-style enlightenment at the point of a bayonet to the benighted peoples of the Muslim world. (Much the same way as the British Empire had civilized India.)

Then let's see what the American people think of this war.

MyOpine
Five-plus years, three thousand-plus American lives, and hundreds of billions of dollars into this Bush mis-adventure and you honestly believe that the American people are stupid enough to pin this on the Democrats just because they questioned whether the right answer is to simply throw more money and more American lives at the problem? What have you been smoking?

More likely?
"Saddam COULD have done something like that, but the more likely problem was him arming the international wahhabists who strategize and pick their targets independently."

How dishonest. International wahabists are known, for a fact, to be sponsored by elements that function in the governments of Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, two nations we continually avoid bringing into the mix as players in international terrorism. We also have known for years that support comes from elements within the UAE. Saddam embracing wahabism as a reason for invading is even more disingenuous than "liberating" Iraq, especially since Cheney was instrumental in financing Saddam AFTER he gassed the Kurds at Halabja.

"Your War, Not Mine"
Damn straight. From the beginning, Bush made this his war. The deal was Bush = the GOP = America = patriotism = God. Question one, you question all. And about every five minutes we have been told that only Republicans could defend this country, that only they understand or define the enemy, that only they were patriotic or even moral, that only they were competent and wise, and the rest of us are traitors.

OK fine. Ya esta. C'est bien. Let Bush have his war. We wish him joy of it.

mass lib
I am a conserv and I want our troops out. Let the real culprits go at it. Saudia Arabia and Iran are fighting a proxy war to see which branch of the blood cult will control the ME. Both want us to stay as a pretense to keep their own sides stirred up. The intensions were good to try and bring stasbility to one country with the hope it would spread. The reality is closer to this cesspool will never change. Blood thirsty dictators will keep the tribal hatred alive and the killings going on as they have for the past 1000 years. Meanwhile the leaders and their families remain safe and like parasites suck the oil wealth from these countries for their own comfort

dogjudge
My hope is that at least some folks will see it ISN'T semantics -- although I can understand why it seems that way to you.

Here are comparative analogies.

From the perspective you seem to come from, "terrorists armed by Saddam" is like saying Saddam is directing their operations in the manner of a 1980s Qaddhafi.

From the perspective with which the SOTU speech was written, "terrorists armed by Saddam" is like saying Saddam is providing them the tools to conduct terrorist operations that they themselves choose. We know Saddam paid bounties to the families of suicide bombers, for example. That doesn't mean he was involved in planning any specific bombing. It would fit his pattern of involvement with terrorists -- across the board -- for him to provide, say, a chemical agent to Al Qaeda, without commissioning a specific attack to be mounted with it.

(He might still be kept in the loop, and informed when his contribution produced success. But that is a different form of involvement from directing the operation, and the one indicated by Bush's wording.)

I don't honestly think I'm alone in understanding this real and meaningful distinction. But it's an easier distinction to recognize with knowledge of the difference between Saddam's state sponsorship of terrorism, and that of a Qaddhafi, or of Hafez al-Assad in the Syria of the 1970s and '80s.

You know I only stay with this because I think you're worth it, right? :-)

The Dems and Al Qaida United
What is the one thing that unites the Dems, Al Qaida, Iran, Syria, and Hezbollah?

They want defeat for the US in Iraq.

Once the Dems win in 2008, and have full control of both houses in Congress, it will be nearly impossible for them to ever rally the people to a foreign threat (ie an Iran with nukes, an Iran that may occupy eastern Iraq. An emboldened Al Qaida). For 6 years the Dems have gone out of their way to paint the Iraqi operation as immoral and unnecessary.

This marriage of conveniece between the Dems and Al Qaida will end Jan 2009. A future President Obama or Hillary will, of course wish to keep the Patriot Act alive (fat chance), protect American interests in the Gulf (quite impossible after we leave Iraq with our tails between our legs), and add stability to world oil prices (quite a fantasy with an Iran that knows what levers to pull). Hillary, Obama and company will also wake up to a monster of thier own creation (or Democratic creation) -George Soros and MoveOn. George will demand a big say in how the Dems conduct foreign policy; after-all it was his organization and money that brought down much of the Bush Doctrine.

Should be interesting to see how the Dems do once they have to enact some agenda.

Lexx77
I assume you voted for George W Bush since you appear to be a Republican. You don't think Reid is qualified to be a Congressman? Look at the qualifications of the man you voted into the White House. His total experience in elected public office: 5 years, half as much as Barack Obama has, whom everybody says is too inexperienced to be President. Bush started businesses: they failed. He went into a branch of military service that would keep him out of combat---and he did this while the country was at war. He got into two good schools on his father's name and others who went to school with him describe him as party boy, frat rat, not very brainy, a screw-off, and a lousy student. He was famously incurious and known to be intellectually lazy. He knew so little of foreign policy that by his own admission he had to be tutored by Condoleeza Rice, and he had never traveled outside the United States. Domestic policy? Two days before he became President he revealed in a speech that he didn't know Social Security is a federal program. He was an alcoholic for years and there is very credible evidence that he abused hard drugs.

But you made him President of the United States, and hardly anyone now living thinks he has done a good-enough job. Many think he is the worst President in the history of the United States.

So you are in a poor position to be criticizing the credentials of just about anybody in Washington. You chose Bush to be our leader, and your judgment was just simply awful.

Mass Lib
Why doesn't Congress just defund the war?Period?

The Dems control both Houses and the agenda. They could call a full session tonight and vote on it immediately. If the 2006 elections was truely a vote to get out of Iraq, why havent't the Dems forced a floor vote? Its's only been 5 months. Good grief, with all of thier rhetoric, you'd think defunding the war would be on the top of thier agenda.

No lib ever answers that question.

dyerje
Thanks for the compliment.

I return the compliment.

My guess is that you come across the other side and walk away from discussions where you realize it isn't worth the time.

I don't mind being challenged in my beliefs at all when I'm confronted by someone who is honest in their beliefs.

When I get people telling me that there is an islamo-fascists behind every tree and we need to go after all of them throughout then entire world, I know that it's time to move on.

While for purely discussions sake, I could take the position of arming someone is the same as . . . It really would be for discussions sake.

From the way that you presented your argument, I can understand how you feel there is a disconnect between your interpretation and the statement that Bush went to war because Saddam was going to attack the US with WMDs. From that perspective, I agree with you.

truthteller
What have I been smoking?
I have been on Google.
Try some yourself;
Google Communists in Government
Google Democratic Socialists of America

Five years invested in this war?
WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN SLEEPING THE LAST THIRTY YEARS?

This war is over 800 years old and we were forced into it by the inaction of Carter!
Clinton MAY have had a chance to set things right.
Then again it may have only hastened us to this point.

Yes I do believe the PROGRESSIVE CAUCUS bought all and any blame for anything that goes wrong with the GWOT when they deliberately collaborated with the enemy to attempt America's defeat in a war of cultural survival.
The DSA has certainly caused many needless deaths.

Yes I know you prefer to be called Democrats but you have morphed the word Democrat into something no true Democrat could stomach.
ALL of the people and policies you support are members of the Democratic Socialists of America.
A government within our Government, with 84 members in the House and a few in the Senate
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/printer-friendly.asp?ARTICLE_ID=44701

JPK
Your question about defunding (which isn't a word), has been answered many times by many Democrats and others. You simply keep asking the question and when you get replies, ignore them.

You don't cut off the funds for the troops. You give them a reasonable time to pack up and leave.

No reasonable American would think otherwise.

Now, I have a question for you.

JPK, "You don't still beat your spouse, do you?"

MyOpine and the Communists
My parting comment before I leave, thanks again Dyerje.

MyOpine, by any chance are you the reincarnation of Joseph McCarthy?

TinkerBelch
"The Democratic Party finds itself willing to throw away, along with the garbage from the weekend's just finished debauchery, honor, personal responsibility, patriotism , love of country, and any knowledge of past historical faux pas they might have had impressed upon them by their professors while they were on their way to the week end liberal demonstrations. In its place they support a platform of treason, betrayal, dishonor, surrender, and capitulation pandering for the self indulgent Nanny state weaned vote for a return to power. Eternal shame be upon them."

It's the libs that have thrown away all these values for the self gratification of their 'feel good' attitudes and justified the adoption the worst characteristics of civilized man because their intentions are so noble. By means of their lies and deceit, they wear a mask that conceals their true nature.

What libs are due to eventually reap when they are eventually exposed is utter contempt from those who still value and retain the best of their civilized values.

Talk all you want
31 GIs dead this month already. I don't think they want us there, and, as it's not our country,I think it's only polite and prudent we should leave.

dogjudge
You seem far to intelligent to just be a "useful idiot".
Therefore I assumed you were aware that ALL OF THE PEOPLE YOU SUPPORT AND EVERY POSITION YOU SUPPORT comes directly from the Democratic Socialists of America.
Anyone who checks that out will find it is the American branch of an INTERNATIONAL Communist organization.

SO;
dogjudge, Are you now or have you ever been a member of any organization harboring intentions to overthrow the Government of The United States?

Pelosi, Murtha & Reid have proven McCarthy was right!

Hay thar dogjudge
"Defunding"?

Hew elekted yew ta bee da spellen teecher round hear?
Peeples mosly sea der oan spellen airers sune aftr posten.
Ifya kan unnerstan da wurd ta korrect spellen den uther peeple kan to.
Yew seam prudish wasten thread ta sho airers we alredy no aboot.
Kould ya reed this ok?
Sea sum airers?

Do you still push children in front of streetcars on Mondays?

Bush Lied Mantra
Bush lied and Dental students cheated!

http://www.topix.net/forum/source/indianapolis-star/T1MCE6R6I7EOBM0DV


It's all Bushes fault.

Gunny G
When the draft is introduced, several Canadians will be killed in the stampede of gung-ho TH posters and columnists of military age heading for the safety of Montreal, Quebec, etc. Because this war, like Nam, is to be fought by the poor only. Frat boys are exempt.

Answer to JPK
JPK writes:
"Why doesn't Congress just defund the war?Period?
...Good grief, with all of thier rhetoric, you'd think defunding the war would be on the top of thier agenda. No lib ever answers that question."

Congress did. Bush vetoed. Look it up.

Deceitful

Mr. Hanson writes:
"Most of the serious Democratic presidential candidates -- Sens. Hillary Clinton, Joe Biden and Christopher Dodd, and former Sen. Jonathan Edwards -- once voted, along with Reid, to authorize the war."

I am heartily sick of reading this disingenuous claim here at TH. True on it's face; snidely, willfully deceitful in every way that matters.

Out of which branch of the government do all our intelligence services work, the legislative or the executive? Do the House and the Senate give the President, the Pentagon, and the Security Council drips and drabs of the intelligence data, or does the executive branch meter it out to the Congress?

Congress was misled. Congress was fed cherry-picked data supporting an extremist agenda. Congress was LIED TO.

End of story.

Doo Doo Doo......
Theme song from the place that lilly and karen hail from: The Twilight Zone.

You socialist communist libtards will never rule the world. You're too weak.

Spew on libtards, I haven't had my laugh yet today.

Funny thing, when Billy Bob and Johnson dropped bombs, it was somehow OK. But when a Republican does it....oh then there's a problem.

Yeah, the problem is you libnuts are blinded by your hatred of all things Republican.

With libtards it's falsehood, injustice and the socialist way. But only after they make their daily sacrifice to their god Gaia and her high priest Prince Al.

What evil slime you are.

Here's what TR said: A person who has an intellect and no soul is a menance to society

Oh I forgot, they don't teach history in school anymore. My bad.

patriot11c
But the point is precisely that we don't want to rule the world.

roy...
You are not anti-israel and a true republican like this is a liberal blog.
Puh-leaze.
Here's a news flash: Carter's book is a one sided piece of masturbatory propaganda, penned from the context of an aging fool with the international perspective of a wood chipper.

It is chock full of factual inaccuracies and outright fabrications.
But hey, according to you and the rest of the appeasers who wish to scapegoat Israel openly, and the jews in secret, his sage work of fiction is a brilliant look at how wrong Israel is....
I know, I know. I'm just a hypnotized minion...
I've heard it before....
Don't believe me, that's fine. But perhaps this might help you understand why you look like a foolish peanut farmers son when you praise such nonsense and encourage others to read his book:

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=118&x_article=1246

"Ira Forman served as the Ohio field director for the Carter-Mondale campaign.

As someone who once worked for Jimmy Carter, it brings me no pleasure to criticize the former president. His commitment to such praiseworthy projects as Habitat for Humanity brings much credit to his post-White House years. No one disputes his right to criticize Israel. Few pro-Israel activists will argue that Israel is always right.

But his ongoing, deeply biased commentary on the Arab-Israeli conflict does a great deal of damage to the truth. Democrats, as well as others, have an obligation to rebut his charges."

"This is a strange little book about the Arab-Israeli conflict from a major public figure. It is premised on the notion that Americans too often get only one side of the story, one uncritically sympathetic to Israel, so someone with authority and knowledge needs to offer a fuller picture. Fine idea. The problem is that in this book Jimmy Carter does not do so. Instead, he simply offers a narrative that is largely unsympathetic to Israel. Israeli bad faith fills the pages. Hollow statements by Israel's enemies are presented without comment. Broader regional developments go largely unexamined. In other words, whether or not Carter is right that most Americans have a distorted view of the conflict, his contribution is to offer a distortion of his own."

"The anti-Israel bias is so clear, the credulous description of Arab positions so cringe-producing, the key 'facts' on which Carter relies so easily refuted by public documents, that the book is an embarrassment to Carter, the Democrats, the presidency and Americans."

What a hero Carter is!
When was the last time you were drug tested?

flaming liberal multi
Gee I am happy to read that you are tired of reading what we Conservatives write here at TH.

I hope that means you will be taking your ignorant snide remarks elsewhere!

Something to think about as you go.
http://www.usawakeup.org

Flaming Liberal Multiculturalist
"JPK writes:
"Why doesn't Congress just defund the war?Period?
...Good grief, with all of thier rhetoric, you'd think defunding the war would be on the top of thier agenda. No lib ever answers that question."

Congress did. Bush vetoed. Look it up."

I DID look it up.
Maybe you should too?
It turns out, Congress FULLY funded the war. FULLY funded the war. They didn't knock a penny off of the requested amount.
The parts Bush objected to (and vetoed because of) was:
-An unprecedented surrender date
-More pork than a ham fried in bacon grease.

Try again.

Gunny G
You haven't responded. Is is because you are just a little ashamed that our soldiers have managed to kill 21 Afghan civilians and 6 Iraqi grade school children in the past 72 hours?

Crazy Horse
Do you have two threads open at the same time?
Perhaps GunnyG has not responded to you because you have screwed up and posted to the wrong thread?


Gunny G
Or are you beyond shame?

MyOpine
He was on here at 4:51. Where is he now? I'm 63 and don't understand these things too well.

Lilly, Bush is no conservative
Bush is hardly what I would call conservative.

He's made government bigger than any president in History, even including Clinton.
He's what we call a Neocon, a Democrat in Repub clothing.

Ron Paul is the true conservative in the Republican field of candidates.

Crazy Horse
That 4:51 post was a "Driveby" soliciting help for the troops.
It's a good bet he left it on every thread.

Civilians killed in war?
You do not know the meaning of civilians killed in war until you see a city that has been deliberately targeted for the express purpose of killing civilians.
Like Dresden, Tokyo, Nagasaki, Hiroshima.
War is not nice.

Shaddenfreud
Civilians always die in combat. American and Western countries take great pains to avoid civilain deaths. Unlike the insurgents who kill civilians indiscriminately and chalk it up to Inshallah.

Case in point. A marine unit in a town in Al Anbar province engaged a force of 100 insurgents. Naturally the Marines kicked "A" and took back the town.

At the end of the battle 4 insurgents went into a house and dragged a civilain woman in with them. This was done to avoid being obliterated by a Marine who had just loaded an AT-4.

The Marines view was that "we live with these people. It's our town too. We ain't going to blow up a building with 4 insurgents while this civilian is still in it.

The Marines figured that the insurgents would wear out and make the mistake of running. After a two-hour wait, that's exactly what happened. Three insurgents were killed and the woman was unharmed.

Interestly enough after this the Iraqis were so impressed with the Marines that they ratted out all the other insurgents living in that town.

This is the norm for American soldiers and Marines in Iraq and afghanistan. The ROI's are extremely tight.

Of course, you won't read this in the libtard press.

This is how we're fighting this war.

But you libs can say what you want. Keep spewing. No way you're going to translate Iraq into a victory in 2008.

At this point ANY Republican is better than your white flag wavers.


davy c rockett
"Bush is hardly what I would call conservative.

He's made government bigger than any president in History, even including Clinton.
He's what we call a Neocon, a Democrat in Repub clothing.
Bush is hardly what I would call conservative."

Not quite. A conservative in liberal clothing is a half-stepping conservative IE Sen Warner, Susan Collins, Lindsay Graham....

Here's what a neo-con is:Neoconservatism is a political movement which emerged in the 1960s, coalesced in the 1970s, and has significant presence in the administration of George W. Bush.[1]

Neo- is Greek for "new". Neoconservatism is new in two ways: first, many of the movement's founders, liberals and people from socialist backgrounds, were new to conservatism; second, it was a fairly recent strain of conservative socio-political thought. Its intellectual roots are from the decades following World War II, including the literary criticism and social science movements.







patriot11C
There is good news too;
You would think MSM would want to use it to sell advertising for Toyotas & toilet paper.
Missing things like this is why MSM is loosing viewers so fast.
http://www.washtimes.com/functions/print.php?StoryID=20070503-115739-2909r

Jpk
My friend, let me ask you a question. If you were in the middle east right now, and while you were being attacked you yelled for more ammo, How would you feel if someone said "oh, so sorry the funding for ammo and supplies was cut last month.You don't stop the funds till all of ours are home!

Dude
"But the point is precisely that we don't want to rule the world."

It ain't about ruling the world. This is a fight for survival of the West. The Islamonazis want to rule the world just like Hitler and Tojo and Stalin wanted to rule the world.

You don't beat these guys with talk or protests or putting the blame om Mame. Look up the word "Hudna" Better still read their version of Mein Kampf - The Koran.

They want to die so that they can get to see their Allah. I say send them there.

Better to fight this war in their backyard than in mine. Although I don't any ROI's like the military does.

You don't win a fight against a bully, by backing down. You standup and fight.

That's what we're doing aginst these facist, nazi scrumbags. We freed 100 million people from the Taliban and Saddam. Now it's up to the people of Iraq and Afghanistan to stand up for themselves and decide if they want freedom or they want Muqtadr Al Sadr.

My bet is the Iraqis just want their MTV. Same as the Vietnamese want today.

It took us 10 years to clear out the terrorists in post-war Germany and 8 years to do the same in post-war Japan.

It took the US 8 years to beat England. How much time will it take the Iraqis to stand on their own...who's to say.

I like the idea of a vote. Let the Iraqis decide if the coalition should stay or go. Then let the enlisted and the officers of the US military decide if the mission is worth it or not.

I'll bet you even money 90% of Iraqis will vote to keep the coalition a little longer and 95% of the US Military would vote to complete the mission.

Congress on the other hand, would probably still vote to raise the white flag, since this is really about Clinton, 2000, Bush and the 2008 election.


Feel better?
This was forwarded to me thought some would like it. Its titled how to feel better
1)Open a new file in your computer
2)Name it Hillary R. Clinton
3)Send it to the trash
4)Empty the trash
5)Your pc will ask Do you really want to get rid of Hillary R. Clinton?
6)Firmly click YES
7)Feel better?
P.S. Next week we'll do Nancy Pelosi

dogjudge
Any time, shipmate.

I appreciate your narrowly defined agreement, but believe it or not, agreement isn't so much what I'm after. At one of these political blogs, happiness is just having your point accurately understood. :-)

I learn a lot about what people are thinking, and where they're coming from, by reading the more thoughtful posts. I also have a life lesson to share: it's often -- maybe even usually -- more important to take time to make a good point with someone than to elicit agreement. Gives us all more to think about.

Your War, Not Mine
Victor,

I think you are totally right. No one seems to be willing to own-up to the mistake that we made by starting a war that created a power vacuum in Iraq. Some 70% of Americans were for it at the time and those of us who were not didn't do nearly enough to stop it. We, the US, acted out of anger and fear after 9/11 and now we are paying for it (mostly with the lives of others).

I just wish there was anyone in the political spectrum who would speak this truth and try to unite us in a path forward which is clearly not either the "keep slogging on" of Bush or the "Re-deploy" of the Democrats.

When you create a mess of this scale, you need to do something extraordinary to fix it.

Steve Savage

Karennkc
Since you didn't make any distinctions I guess I'll have to take great umbrage at your remark. I have been a republican probably longer than you have been alive. Almost 40 years. Not only was I willing to fight inV.N., I participated in the medical volenteer program at Edgewood Arsenal in72. Also, I have said before that I would support a draft of 3to4 years. This is because the standard 2 yr. enlistment just gets them trained and you have to turn them loose to civillian life. As for the sacrifices, I am now an insulin dependant diabetic and have a fused back in the lumbar region. How more sacrifices would youx have me make? Exactly how many fights have you been in and what sacrifices have you made?

A New Approach
There is no question that the Iraq conflict,today (and for much of it's history), is not producing any of the results that were envisioned when the decision was made to attack.

Both sides of the legislative isles, democratically voted to fund the conflict. Unless we no longer believe in a democratic, constitutional, legislative process we , as a nation, and our elected officials agreed the available evidence warranted the affirmative vote to attack Iraq.

Now a majority of our nation and our legislators believe the available evidence for continuing the war warrants, at a minimum, disengagement from hostilities and possibly complete withdrawal.

What is missing between these two diametrically opposed positions is any clear explanation of where we initially went wrong in our collective, national thought process and what we plan to do now with the mess that has been created.

From my vantage point, as an avid reader of the comments section, most of the postings simply repeat talking points from both sides of the debate. We, as a nation, need a more visionary dialog . A dialog which tackles the very difficult questions. A dialog which results in some collective answer.

I have little hope that this dialog will happen because all the fun that results from constantly arguing the same stale ideological points with our opponents, will be ended.

The founding fathers had bitter disagreements but somehow the foundation for this great county's future success was agreed upon and memorialized in our Constitution. We owe ourselves equally creative solutions to our issues, just like our founders were willing to achieve with their vexing issues.


karennkc
Why do you insist on bringin g up how or why we got stuck in Iraq. The problem is extricating our troops from that cesspool and continuing to moan about the past isn't going to change the present. Further where does your information come from that repubs are not fighting in the war. That is insulting to the men and women in the armed forces. I doubt you could find the political leanings of anyone in the military> You need to check your sources on Clintons use of the military. He was extremely reluctant to use the military and sending a cruise missle to blow up a tent on the day of his impeachment was really a mark of courage on his part, but his notion that terrorists should be persued through the courts was even more ridiculous. What did he do about the Cole bombing? He promised to pursue that but never did. He also had the chance to get Bin Laden but again thought he didn't have a legal case to do that.

Replies

MyOpine writes:
"I hope that means you will be taking your ignorant snide remarks elsewhere!"

And I hope Bush will get a brain someday. We all have our windmills...


Jeffislouie writes:
"I DID look it up.
Maybe you should too?
It turns out, Congress FULLY funded the war."

FULLY funding Bush of Arabia's war means funding it for as long as Bush wants it, which is forever. A cut-off date means NO MORE MONEY after that.

And despite what you may think about Liberal's attitudes towards our armed services, we do not want to pull the rug out from under them so that they are endangered in Iraq. Turning off ALL the money ALL at once, even assuming it could survive a veto, would endanger the soldiers. The people spoke last November, Bush needs to listen and bring them home.


FULLY funded the war. They didn't knock a penny off of the requested amount.
The parts Bush objected to (and vetoed because of) was:
-An unprecedented surrender date
-More pork than a ham fried in bacon grease.

Try again.

Cleveland indians
One of your statements boggles me. How is it, that this nation can make up a case against anyone in this world but Clinton, with all his cronies couldn't make a case against one known terrorist.I find that very hard to believe. More believable is the possibility that he didn't want him. and thus MrBin Laden walks away to later mastermind the twin tower bombing.

Its almost unanimous now
Today a majority of the Iraqi parliament signed on as sponsors of a resolution calling for a freeze on American troop levels and a phased withdrawal date of American forces.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/10/AR2007051000387.html?hpid=topnews

The parliament is reflecting polling that shows a majority of Iraqis want America to leave, viewing our presence as a cause and not a solution to the violence and civil war in their country.

Tony Blair is one his way out. Most of our other "coalition of the willing" allies have been gone for some time.

A majority of the House and Senate in the U.S. want us to leave. An even larger majority of Americans agree with them. A coalition of moderate Republicans told Bush yesterday that their patience is about gone and he can't count on their support much longer.

Let's see. No Iraqi support for the war. No international support for the war. No domestic support for the war. It's almost unanimous.

It's pretty much just George Bush, Richard Cheney, Osama bin Laden and Ayman al-Zawahiri (and Emmett Tyrell) who want us to stay at this point.

I have long urged that we find an honorable way out of this conflict, encouraging the Iraqis to stabilize their country while persuading other countries of the region to participate in the process. But is increasingly, painfully obvious that the Iraqis don't want to do it. They are looking ahead to the time when the US leaves and the real civil war can begin. The Shiites and the Kurds will terminate al Qaeda in Iraq (and many innocent Sunnis) with extreme prejudice and it will be done. It will happen if we leave today, tomorrow of five years from now.

The Iraqis have so little incentive to reconcile the factions, so little sense of urgency that parliament can't even be troubled to cancel its two-month vacation in July and August. Americans will be dying so that Iraqi lawmakers can vacation with honor.

Why is anyone still talking about defeat, surrender or winning anymore? The only defeat is to continue staying where we're not wanted, accomplishing nothing except what al Qaeda has desired from the very beginning.

This has been a foreign policy blunder of the first magnitude. Invading Iraq was a bad idea, propped up by questionable and cooked intelligence, executed with the wrong strategy, incorrect tactics and a failure to admit even the most glaring mistakes. All the dire consequences that are predicted from American withdrawal are the ones we created when we invaded.

It's over.

eastlake joe
clintons greatest weakness was pulling the trigger. He would always see possible consequences of any actions further down the road. If I do this, than this or that might result. But I doubt the missus ever wanted him doing anything political that would damage his legacy. These two dolts thought old billy boy would be going down in history in the top five of all presidents. Hillary had the audacity to think billy boy was something akin to Lincoln. Oh course the blue dress, the impeachment, the pardons have all guaranteed how history will view him. Had he killed bin laden and told the world he had nothing to do with it, this would in my mind at least be an honorable distortion of the truth. Lying over a hummer is inexcusable, asnd just plain stupid knowing his history. But I guess pleasing the missus was more omportant than doing the most important job of a president and that is protecting the country. Who knows, maybe had he been more aggresive about killing binladen things might be different today, then again maybe they would have been worse. But any president given the opoortunity needs to kill any terrorist they can get their hands on before they get the chance to enact the killing fantasies. A bit long winded but a somewwhat thumbnail skeych of how I recall the clinton years

Karennkc - RINOS
Good pieces. Thanks. There is something rotten and perverse in those who seem to glory in war. I am a senior who has seen many of them, big (WWII, in which two of my older brothers served) and small.

The older I get the more I feel that the decent people in this world, of whatever race, religion and nation, need to stand in the way of warmakers and say: "NO!" Some of them are well-intentioned and misled patriots. But some are greedy for power or money, or foolishly full of bigotry. They always manage to find evil forces that threaten us - if not one enemy then another.

I have a bumper sticker, my first ever, which reads: "We Refuse to be Enemies." Then in smaller print: "Muslims, Jews and Christians United for Peace and Justice." I personally am a devout Christian but respect other faiths, all of them efforts to understand the mysteries of life and this universe. It's shameful that religion so divides us when it should serve as a bridge that joins us.

America has spend nearly all of its 'goodwill' chips from the past and now we are regarded by most of the world as arrogant and overbearing. That, plus earlier and tragic mistakes in our Middle East policy, are why we're in our present mess. That is not to excuse the Muslim crazies, of course, who represent religion at its very worse. But we must not let those crazies lead us into rash errors. The invasion of Iraq was just such, and the chief benefactors have been bin Laden and Al Qaeda.

I am a Republican, a real Republican, who would like to vote GOP. But our party seems to have been taken over by RINOS. Now, when I say Rinos I mean former trotskyite-communist types like Wolfowitz, Perle, Feith, and Abrams and former Dixiecrats who worked so hard and so long to deprive fellow Americans of equal rights. Bush is their puppet, a well-meaning man who has been manipulated by sinister people around him. I hope he has learned his lesson, though - sadly - it's too late to rescue his legacy.

Much more to say, but my experience is that I am less likely to read long comments.

reply to Roy
Consider this your welcome to the ranks of liberal Democrats! Your position has no home in the Republican party, as I think you realize. From the authentic conservative Republican standpoint, you are the RINO. I think that's unfortunate, because your voice is one that should be heard by Republicans. It won't be, however, and so I hope you'll shed the Republican party and vote your conscience.