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Thursday, April 26, 2007
Victor Davis Hanson :: Townhall.com Columnist
Is the War on Terror Over?
by Victor Davis Hanson
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Do we still need to fight a war on terror?

The answer seems to be no for an increasing number in the West who are weary over Afghanistan and Iraq or complacent from the absence of a major attack on the scale of 9/11.

The British Foreign Office has scrapped the phrase "war on terror" as inexact, inflammatory and counterproductive. U.S. Central Command has just dropped the term "long war" to describe the fight against radical Islam.

An influential book making the rounds - "Overblown: How Politicians and the Terrorism Industry Inflate National Security Threats, and Why We Believe Them" - argues that the threat from al-Qaida is vastly exaggerated.

Zbigniew Brzezinski, Jimmy Carter's national security adviser, goes further, assuring us that we are terrorized mostly by the false idea of a war on terror - not the jihadists themselves.

Even onetime neo-conservative Francis Fukuyama, who in 1998 called for the preemptive removal of Saddam Hussein, believes "war" is the "wrong metaphor" for our struggle against the terrorists.

Others point out that motley Islamic terrorists lack the resources of the Nazi Wehrmacht or the Soviet Union.

This thinking may seem understandable given the ineffectiveness of al-Qaida to kill many Americans after 9/11. Or it may also reflect hopes that if we only leave Iraq, radical Islam will wither away. But it is dead wrong for a number of reasons.

First, Islamic terrorists plotting attacks are arrested periodically in both Europe and the United States. Just last week a leaked British report detailed al-Qaida's plans for future "large-scale" operations. We shouldn't be blamed for being alarmist when our alarmism has resulted in our safety at home for the past five years.

Second, have we forgotten that Nazi Germany was never able to kill 3,000 Americans on our homeland? Did Japan ever destroy 16 acres in Manhattan or hit the nerve center of the U.S. military? Even the Soviet Union couldn't inflict billions of dollars in damage to the U.S. economy in a single day.

Third, in some ways stateless terrorists can be more dangerous than past conventional threats. Autocrats in some Middle East countries allow indirect financial and psychological support for al-Qaida terrorists without leaving footprints of their intent. They must assume that a single terrorist strike could kill thousands of Americans without our ability to strike back at their capitals. This inability to tie a state to its support for terrorism is our greatest obstacle in this war - and our enemies' greatest advantage.

Fourth, jihadists have already scored successes in all sorts of ways beyond altering the very nature of air travel. Cartoonists now lampoon everyone and everything - except Muslims. The pope must weigh his words carefully. Otherwise, priests and nuns are attacked abroad. A single false Newsweek story about one flushed Koran led to riot and death.

The net result is that terrified millions in Western societies silently accept that for the first time in centuries they cannot talk or write honestly about what they think of Islam and the Koran.

Fifth, everything from our 401(k) plans to municipal water plants depend on sophisticated computers and communications. And you don't need a missile to take them down. Two oceans no longer protect the United States - not when the Internet knows no boundaries, our borders are relatively wide open, and dozens of ships dock and hundreds of flights arrive daily.

A germ, some spent nuclear fuel or a vial of nerve gas could cause as much mayhem and calamity as an armored division in Hitler's army. The Soviets were considered rational enemies who accepted the bleak laws of nuclear deterrence. But the jihadists claim that they welcome death if their martyrdom results in thousands of dead Americans.

Finally, radical Islamists largely arise from the oil-rich Middle East. Since 9/11, the price of oil has skyrocketed, transferring trillions of dollars from successful Western, Indian and Chinese economies to unsuccessful Arab and Iranian autocracies.

Terrorists know that blowing up a Saudi oil field or getting control of Iraqi petroleum reserves - and they attempt both all the time - will alter the world economy. Even their mere threats give us psychological fits and their sponsors more cash.

This is a strange war. Our successes in avoiding attack convince some that the real danger has passed. And when we kill jihadists abroad, we are told it is peripheral to the war or only incites more terrorism.

But despite the current efforts at denial, the war against Islamic terrorism remains real and deadly. We can't wish it away until Middle Eastern dictatorships reform - or we end their oil stranglehold over the world economy.

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About The Author
Victor Davis Hanson is a classicist and historian at the Hoover Institution, Stanford University, and a recipient of the 2007 National Humanities Medal.

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Silly question...
...but a good one.

The answer is, "NO!"

Unless, naturally, one is a Leftinistra like the goober reid.

I began my young life serving my country in the mid 1970s and the war on terrorism was on way back then. Carter did everything he could to ensure our loss back then and that garbage continues today.

Multiculturalism and hate America from within needs to be eradicated and if it means another American civil war, so be it. Hopefully, we will experience a bloodless one but if the Leftinistra continue on their current trek, we will have blood in our streets.

Ah but there is at least one return addr
...it rhymes with hecka.

Humor Best Medicine.
Victor Davis Hanson is a brilliant analyst of the world and historical developments. That means he's destined to be widely ignored by respondents to most public opinion polls, formerly known as K-Mart Shoppers.

The battle of ideas will be won on many fronts, one of which, surprisingly, is humor. On my site (click on name above), I use humor to make people laugh. I also use it -- the last time I'll admit this -- for more strategic purposes.

All I can promise is that I'll have original political humor for conservatives on my site. I'll have jokes about such figures as Fred Thompson and Barack Obama, who are about as funny as an earache. Let me know what you think.

War on Terror
The sooner we banish the ridiculous phrase 'war on terror' the sooner we can begin to educate the populace to the war we are in fact must wage. Political Correctness aside, we are in a war with Islamic extremism. It's really that simple. Terror is a tactic not a nation, not a people, not an ideology. The ideology we face is the real danger. And if you believe polls taken in Muslim countries substantial majorities in those countries either actively or passively support the actions against western countries.I don't know a clearer definition of war than this. Let's identify the enemy, make it real. The enemy is not shrouded thugs, but a religion that wants to destroy those who do not believe. As long as we wage a war on terror and ignore the ideology that supports it we are the Europeans of the 1930's brandishing umbrellas and waving pieces of paper proclaiming "Peace in our time".

Are There More Terrorists Today?
Yes. The so called "war" in Iraq is the best terrorist manufacturing plant every devised.

I remember back in the first year of the war when Rice came out and said that we had killed 75 terrorists and were making good progress. As if there were some finite number that once we killed enough or all of them, our job was done.

As if. All one has to do is look at the woefully overmatched Palestinians to see where history in Iraq is headed. The Palestinians are out gunned and killed seven-to-one. Yet Israel still has the same Palestinian terrorist problem as it did twenty-years ago.

That's fact.

Here's how woefully divided this country is.

Check out this video:

http://www.crooksandliars.com/Media/Download/16578/1/Factor-OReilly-Soros.wmv

If Republicans believe all it takes is a little money to buy a country's president ($120 million compared to the $120 Billion for Iraq) and to get politicians to follow marching orders, then why not just buy the Iraq politicians of our choice and remove our troops?

Common sense will tell you that we've made matters worse by invading Iraq. We've created more terrorists. If we were lucky before 9/11 to not have had foreign terrorists attacks on our soil, we are certainly far more lucky today not to have them. Rather than spending $500 billion to date on shoring up defense at home, we've spent $500 billion creating more terrorists and fomenting tons more hatred in the Muslim world for America then Osama Bin Laden could've ever wished for when he attacked on 9/11. What's laughable if it weren't so dangerous is that in 2006 the FBI sent 21 fake bombs through 21 airports and EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM made it onto the planes. Airport security is no better today than before 9/11 and now we created more terrorists at the very expensive tune of $500 billion.

Just great.

There you have it. The terrorist "common sense" dividing line.

The minority of people in this country who support the "war on terrorism" believe, like Rice, we've killed X number of terrorists and only have T total number of terrorists minus X to go.

The majority of people in this country who do not support the war believe we've fomented hatred and created ten terrorists for every one terrorist that we've killed before we invaded Iraq.

In WWII, once you killed off enough Germans you could beat them down, get them to surrender and change their ways. How long have the Israeli's been beating down the Palestinians? There are a billion Muslims on this planet. Just how many countrys have to be invaded, how many "terrorists" have to be killed, before the Muslims are beaten down, we get them to surrender and change their ways?

The joke of it all is that "winning" in Iraq is seen as some victory in the war on terror and losing in Iraq is seen as some kind of "surrender". Ha ha. As if the terrorists are in Iraq. As if the majority of terrorists are in Iraq. If things had gone swimmingly in Iraq and Afghanistan, Bush would've invaded Syria and Iran by now.

Republicans have no explanation, no rational claim, to how they are going to prosecute the war on terror once Iraq is "won". Republicans have no idea how many terrorists there were before 9/11, before we invaded Iraq, or how many exist today.

Yet they insist the war on terror is making progress and to leave Iraq now would be to surrender.

Right. Our actions in Iraq have only made the world a far more dangerous place to live and has only embolden the terrorists and fomented more hatred of America.

If you believe otherwise then you support the war. Thank God the public at large is smarter than Bush administration and we live in a Democracy where common sense will eventually prevail.















I like the term "Strange War"
"Unconventional" seems hardly descriptive enough. "Long" may be descriptive, but is inherently fatiguing. "On Terror" has been beat to death for its abstractness. "Global" may be true, but by definition it's not restrictive in its characterization and thus not useful.

I like "Strange." Seems to fit, because of how every aspect of this conflict seems to be quite beyond typical description--the targeting of civilians, the use of hit-and-run tactics on the engagement level, the inability to mount a force-on-force operation, the lack of conclusiveness at the operational level of any engagement, the media war, the misinformation war, the pacifist/leftist/appeasement/utopian attributes.

"Strange" seems perfect.

Insane
If the situation with terrorism is so dire, please explain why NO ONE in the world believes you.

Spain and Britian have both been hit with terrorist attacks in recent times. Seems a done deal to convince people of those countries that they should sending troops to Iraq and supporting us with money. Japan gave the U.S. billions of dollars to help pay for the first Gulf war. Oh, what, they haven't given us any money to date?

If terrorism where really such the dire threat you all say it is, you'd think some country, some ally, somewhere would agree with you.

6 billion people, 160 plus countries, and no one gets it like the conservatives in this country.

Even if you really believe that terrorism is all that and more, one needs to stop and reflect on the fact that no country in the world supports the US in its war in Iraq, and two-thirds of the American public is against it.

Just how insane do you have to be to believe you can wage a major offensive where the entire world and majority of Americans are against it?

How insane do you have to believe that if America pulls out 100% of Iraq then Russia, France or Iran won't move in? Let Russia, France or Iran deal with that civil war. We owe the French one for pulling out of Vietnam. Let's tell the French we'll give all the oil if they can keep it. You are isane if you think that Iran can just walk in, wave their hands, the violence will end, peace will follow and they will start pumping oil. Iranian empirilism is a bigger threat to the middle-east than American imperialism. The Saudis, Syrian's, Jordanian's will work to undermine the Iranians with even more furvor than the Americans.

The only dog we have in the Iraq war is of our own chosing. The Suadi's live there. As do the Jordanians and all the other countries of the middle-east. Iraq is now a doggie chew toy with lots of dogs fighting over it. If America pulls out, some other dog will take its place.

It is only insane, American arrogance that only an American solution can prevail.





50 year strategic plan
No body talks about a 50-year strategic plan. If two of the major intelligence failures since 2000 have been:

1. Discovering and preventing 9/11
2. Lack of information on WMDs in Iraq

Then how are we to gather intelligence on our Islamic enemies if we have no strategic footprint in the Middle East. Furthermore, how can we maintain operations against them without bases in the Middle East in Iraq and Afghanistan on either side of Iran. And the other thing is to keep them busy, maintain constant pressure on them, make them committ resources, personnel, finances. If the rest of the world lacks the balls for it, so be it. They probably haven't the competence for it either. And better to have it out now when they don't have nuclear weapons.

Dr. K

YES...War on "Radical Islam" closer to
accurate. But I wonder if our fatal habit of our fear of confronting the real rotten foundations that encourage "Radical Islam"...Islam. Oh, those of you too sensitive to recognize that this perverse belief system has done more wholesale damage to civilization than any single factor please refer to the following:

Sura 3:151 states: "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority: their abode will be the Fire: And evil is the home of the wrong-doers!"

Sura 8:12: "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."

Sura 9:29 states: "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." (Jizya was a tax which non-Muslims had to pay to their Muslim overlords).

Yup, the religion of Peace....

Imperialism, Zionism & the terror.
“[T]he thrust of US policy in the region derives almost entirely from domestic politics, and especially the activities of the ‘Israel Lobby’. Other special-interest groups have managed to skew foreign policy, but no lobby has managed to divert it as far from what the national interest would suggest, while simultaneously convincing Americans that US interests and those of the country—in this case, Israel—are essentially identical.”

—London Review of Books, 23 March 2006

“The first Gulf War revealed the extent to which Israel was becoming a strategic burden. The US could not use Israeli bases without rupturing the anti-Iraq coalition, and had to divert resources (e.g. Patriot missile batteries) to prevent Tel Aviv doing anything that might harm the alliance against Saddam Hussein. History repeated itself in 2003: although Israel was eager for the US to attack Iraq, Bush could not ask it to help without triggering Arab opposition. So Israel stayed on the sidelines once again.”

America is suffering disasterous national debt, death and humuliation of its forces, and a disgraceful image in the world for supporting the Zionist state and nothing to gain from it, except more militancy against it.

America is a stooge of the Zionist terror policy in the Middle East and is reaping defeat in its wake. It's time to quit the support of the Zionist state and let it deal with its problems !

Story on the Haditha Marines
was a PR stunt by the terrorists and Nifong Murtha jumped on it hook line and sinker.

Charges are being dropped.

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2007/4/24/164012.shtml?s=lh

vic lol
this is why you and the biased consevative media have no crediblilty. the guy was given immunity so he could testify against the others.
sheesh
most conservatives don't even think newsmax is credible.


CAMP PENDLETON -- The Marine Corps announced Tuesday morning that murder charges against a Marine sergeant in the 2005 deaths of 24 civilians in Haditha, Iraq, have been dismissed and that he will be granted immunity when called to testify, a development that could bolster the government's prosecution against other defendants.

Lt. Gen. James Mattis approved a dismissal of the charges against Sgt. Sanick P. Dela Cruz on April 2.

The dismissal by Mattis, the convening authority over the case as head of Marine Corps forces in the Middle East, was not announced until today and was made, the Marine Corps said, "after the government balanced the low level of culpability iin the alleged crimes agains the value of his testimony."


Dela Cruz was charged on Dec. 21 with five counts of what the military calls unpremeditated murder stemming from actions in Haditha on Nov. 19, 2005, after a Humvee was destroyed by a roadside bomb, killing a lance corporal.

Three other enlisted men still face murder charges in the case, including Staff Sgt. Frank Wuterich, who is accused of killing 19 of the 24 civilians that died at the hands of the troops from the 3rd Battalion, 1st Marine Regiment based at Camp Pendleton.

Four officers also face charges related to allegedly failing to properly investigate and report what happened.

Gary Solis, a former Marine Corps attorney and now a military law professor at Georgetown University in Washington, said the decision to grant immunity to Dela Cruz does not bode well for the other enlisted men.

"The defense of the other men just got a lot more difficult," Solis said during a telephone interview. "The government now has testimony from an inside man who presumably will testify against the others."

Brian Rooney, an attorney for the highest-ranking man charged in the case, Lt. Col. Jeffrey Chessani who is accused of dereliction of duty in the Marine Corps' initial probe of the incident, said that from his reading of the investigatory documents, Dela Cruz had "a lot to worry about."

"I suspect they had him over a barrell," Rooney said, adding the development was unsurprising to him and probably would not affect the case against his client.

Dela Cruz's attorney, Daniel Marino of Washington, was not immediately available.


Straw man argument
It is puzzling. Hanson's target is supposed to be the critics who argue that calling the fight against islamic terrorists a war is inaccurate and harmful to fighting the actual terrorists. He gives a series of data points, but none of them shows why it is advantageous to call this a war, and in fact includes some that indicate why it is better to deal with the problem through law enforcement.

Is there really such a great advantage to jousting at straw men? Is the idea to create the impression that all argument is rhetoric so that the people with something serious to say get dismissed along with those like Hanson who have nothing?

BadBoy writes:
"
So let's follow your example, not fight the terrorists, and they'll learn to love us- just like they love the civilian population of Mumbai and the government of Algeria."

The entire conservative argument is that our war is somehow diminishing the terrorist threat when in fact the war has created more terrorists then it kills. There are one billion Muslims. Presumably at some point if you kill enough of that one billion there won't enough left for 10 new terrorists to replace every one that's been killed.

Is that what you want? To kill that many Muslims? Just curious.

The people who do not agree with BadBoy are not saying surrender. What they are saying is that Bush has created more terrorists then ever before and we want to stop creating more terrorists.


Mr. K on CPAN
Billy Kristol was on CSPAN for a whole 45 minutes today. Unfortunately, I was only able to listen to the first caller, the wife of a soldier in Iraq, who detailed the terror of that potential knock on the door informing her and the kids that daddy is dead. I found the situation surreal in that Mr. Kristol, who foams at the mouth like a mad dog in support of the war, will go to nice, warm bed in his million dollar Bethesda home very safe indeed after a full day talking and typing at his word processor. If Mr. Kristol feels that strongly about the war, why doesn't he volunteer to serve? Or is this war an intellectuals' extravagance at the expense of white working class cannon fodder?

The conservative movement has been led astray by a former liberal sect that parasitically jumped aboard conservatism in the late 70s. These effete warriors of the word processor, in a mad fantasy to force democracy down the throats of backwater and generally incompetent Islamics, have poisoned consaervatism with their lunatic tantrums. They should be kicked to the curbs before conservatism is forever discredited.

Creating more terrorists??
I'm sick and tired of the whole "We're creating more terrorists" garbage. The fact is, no matter what we do, we are creating more terrorists. We support the Afghan rebels against the soviets and created more terrorists. We pushed the "secular" regime of Sadaam out of Kuwait and prevented him from invading Saudi Arabia. Created more terrorists. Interrogated terrorists and created more terrorists. Say something offensive to Muslims and create more terrorists. Pope makes a comment, creates more terrorists. Draw a freaking cartoon with Muhammed..Create more terrorists. Is this getting through to anyone?

driveby
So whats your plan to defeat all the extra terrorists that George W Bush created? I guess they will just stop trying to kill innocent people once they realize we mean them no harm. Al Qaeda was a peaceful organization prior to the invasion of Iraq, ask anyone who went to work in the WTC on the morning of Sept. 11, 2001.

Nutcase.

driveby
"There are one billion Muslims. Presumably at some point if you kill enough of that one billion there won't enough left for 10 new terrorists to replace every one that's been killed."

The irony of your argument is that will be the only option left once the attempt to combat their radical ideology with freedom fails. Israel's been doing it for almost 60 years and it hasn't been working out too well for them.

apoplectic
Israel has been doing exactly what we are doing in Iraq. Does it work? I would say obviously not. We are stalled in Iraq and Israel got embarrassed in Lebanon. Maybe it is time for a change?

Quarantine
The best solution with dealing with radical Islamics is what the West would have done before the West became diseased by political correctness- quarantine of Islamics. They don't belong in the West and the only item of theirs that we wish lies under the ground of the Middle East- oil. Islamics from France to America to Sweden to Serbia should be repatriated to their countries of origin with payments to ease their resettlement. The only Westerners who should go to the Middle East should be oilmen and diplomats.

Derek Leaberry
China tried that in the middle ages and became easy meat for westerners over time. Why hide? why run? The last country I recall trying the quarantine approach was the Soviet Union another glowing example of trying to hide form the world

Hal
Really? When did Israel attempt to establish a free democracy in an Arab country?

apoplectic
"Israel's been doing it for almost 60 years and it hasn't been working out too well for them." your words and I assume you meant either Lebanon or thepalistinean territory. BUT holy #*%# I misread your intent and we actually agree. You are 100% correct and I apo;igise


dillweed
You forgot to add do what the western nations including the US have been doing for a very long time. Hunting the criminals down and eliminating them. It gave them no status as warriors and no safe areas.

Hal
The comment about what Israel has been doing for almost 60 years pertains to attempting to kill the terrorists off. That is not what we are doing in Iraq. What I was saying is, if Iraq fails, the Israeli approach will be all that we have left. The prospects for that approach are even more bleak than the prospects of Iraq becoming a free and democratic society. That is the crux of what I was getting at yesterday. Iraq is bad, but the alternative is much, much worse!!

Badboy
Precisely!!! This is not a difficult concept. The radical islamists believe it is their "Duty" as muslims to restore the caliphate and spread islam around the globe by any and all means necessary. We are in their way of achieving this.

drivebyposting
So, using your logic, if we merely hunker down inside the borders of the US, the terrorists will fade away?

Hal Donahue
posted, "Maybe it is time for a change?"

To what? All I hear is you people whining. I never hear any suggestions, except to parrot the current Bush strategy.

I do hear insipid socialist BS, though. Thanks for nothing, H.D.

apoplectic
No one I know says leave the ME. However it happened, we are identified as occupiers and provide excuses to arm and form militias. Fine withdraw let them fight it out if they like. There is a chance rational minds will prevail but it is a long shot. Right now I see us as plugging a pressure cooker the sooner we get off the smaller the explosion. Iraq is not the war on terror in reality we are fighting surrogates and training al quiada while grinding down our army and marine corp. That serves the purposes of the terrorists.

RE: apoplectic and Badboy
I'm just curious to see if either one of you will answer this question:

The War in Iraq has:

1.) Reduced the terrorist threat

2.) Increased the terrorist threat

"Islamic fundamentalism, not US foreign policy, is what breeds the overwhelmning majority of the world's terrorists. Period. "

Really. So the fact that we are either directly or indirectly responsible for thousands of civilian deaths in Iraq has nothing to do with it, eh? Children die, whatever, and the Iraqi people are like, "yeah, that's cool, my child died today, my husband died today, but its ok, I don't hate America, they are the great liberators! wooo hooo!"

DavidMac
Bush's only strategy at this time seems to be stay in Iraq until he can leave office. LMAO I am many things buty not socialist. Timelines just may work in any case what we have been doing with little change obviously is not. It may come as some surprise to you but this country and its allies have been hunting down and destroying terrorists during its entire existance. This is not new at all.

drivebyposting
I think that was an unfair shot at apoplectic he acknowledged that earlier when he mentioned Israel. I don't know badboy at all but apoplectic is rational

Hal
Let's look at this a different way. You probably believe the christian far right ideology is dangerous. Imagine if all of the sources of information in America were either sympathetic to or outright supported the christian far right's ideology. Imagine the only television channels were Foxnews and the 700 Club. Imagine the only newspapers were the Christian Science Monitor, and the Washington Times. The only internet sites were Foxnews and Townhall, naturally with all the liberal points of view filtered out. How do you, as a liberal, compete with the far right ideology when you have no means to be heard by the masses? That is precisely what we are dealing with. Radical Islam is not growing in response to what we are doing. It is growing because there is nothing to compete with the ideology.

apopletic
no it has the american attempt to force iraqis to accept democracy at the end of a gun and the rest of the mideast has recoiled at the result.like putin said "if iraq is the example of democracy, we don't want it."

bush has botched this so bad it is criminal.

It is sickening...

Too many Leftists sound like terrorist sympathizers! Every thread they post on they make a point of telling us there is no terrorist threat, while at the same time telling us we are creating terrorists...!!!??? Makes me wonder if these people are actual Democrat Congressmen or something.

In their world the parents who teach their children jihad and want them to become martyrs by killing Americans as a suicide bomber are let off the hook blame-free. After all, the Left knows people who would offer their childrens lives for a cause can be reasoned with. The Left is sacrificing childrens lives all the time. Just look at our schools.

Then too, the Left knows there were no jihadists until Bush stole the election from Gore and the Muslims got upset about that and THAT created the terrorism attack of Sept.11th. If Gore had been president.... well, you get the point of THAT argument.

One particular lefty even asks;
"Is that what you want? To kill that many Muslims?"
Suddenly, in a conversation about killing terrorists the terrorists became Muslims??? As if the conversation were about "innocent" Muslims. What happened to "terrorists"??

Oh, and BTW, the answer is > Kill every Muslim that wants to kill Americans.
Which now begs the question> Drive-thru - How many of them do you want to survive??

apoplectic
I agree and actualy that is a major complaint against MOST of the ME regimes as I am sure you know. But who funds them? Iraq was an oasis free from that BS. The Saudis are behind the vast majority of it. Pakistan was making progress against this type of thing until they got in bed with the Taliban. But and here is a big but there has to be advantage to the alternative. That was happening in Iran and Bush invading Iraq has probably made that government more rather than less stable. We should be fighting that as part of the war onterror. You know as well as I we aren't. Bush promised a rebuilding progran for Afghanistan that would dwarf the Marshall Plan if that had happened in combination with providing alternatve media Bush might well be a hero rather than a goat.

Magnificus
Were you ever in the military?

driveby
Clearly it has reduced the terrorist threat to US citizens outside of Iraq or Afganistan. The lack of buildings exploding in the past 4 years vs any 4 year period prior since 1990 kind of gives that one away!!

True colors:
religouslib is now quoting KGB....

Hal
You'll get no argument from me that Bush seriously bungled it. That doesn't mean it was the wrong thing to do though, and that it shouldn't still be pursued. It just makes it much harder. As to why Iraq? Simple, it was the obviously choice. It is in the heart of the middle east, and we had international diplomatic cover since Sadaam violated the cease-fire on many occasions and defied the UN Resolutions.

Hal, more
A free and prosperous Afganistan would probably not have much of an impact on the rest of the Arab countries due to its historical insignificance. A free and prosperous Iraq however, that is something completely different. It could create the domino effect in Iran as well as Syria. An uprising in those countries were not going to happen without a serious catalyst.

apoplectic
That was the prince of darkness's position too. But they didn't want to pay the price in troops and would not give proper time or funding to the effort. It was truly a rush to war. Would I agree with the logic probably not. Make a display out of Afghanistan and keep pressure on Saddam. But if they had done it right it just might have worked. Now I think we withdraw to the desert and let them sort it out. I can see zero good in us staying in their face. Israel and North Korea had too. If I had to go to war based on threats it would have been North Korea not Iraq. That was the greatest threat. Admit it we used the UN sanctions to invade Iraq there had been little change

apoplectic
A quick note and must run for an hour or so. It was already happening in Iran. If anything Bush has slowed that process. The mullah's are as corrupt as the old shah was and the people know it. Restive is a good term to describe it.

Excellent analysis
That's all, Folks!

Hal
As I said, there is not another good alternative that I can see. If we cannot transform the middle east through freedom and democracy, we will be left with only the Israeli option of killing them wherever and whenever we can. In the long run, the cost to us in lives and treasure will be much higher. The numbers of them that we will have to kill will be horrendous. Given the alternative, I think we have to give Iraq every possible chance to succeed. The radicals are not a huge threat to us right now, but given time they will be. Israel is already discovering that fact. I look at it like it's 1933 or 1946. We saw the threats of both the Nazi's and the Communists, but they were too weak to be a real threat to us so we didn't stop them. The rest as they say, is history.

Hal Donahue
Ahhhh... The Frequently Asked Question. Especially from the Left. Are you a Liberal? Same inquiry, sort of.

1st... not only the question irrelevant to the discussion, it is also none of your business (nor mine about your political leanings)...if you can't figurew it out, you have no business asking... I could say yes and you wouldn't know if I were telling the truth or not anyway... so what's the difference?

Then too there is "the difference" between "being in the military" and "seeing combat"... again, if one feels a need to ask, they don't deserve an answer.

Either way...I don't know you, nor trust you enough to tell you where and when I served or even which branch... If I were to say Air Force, you would say "thats different than being on the ground in a fire-fight" which would be correct unless I was FAQ... IF I even served that is.

Now. What's your point in asking?

So Hal
Been in the military have ya'?

jimmy carter
george w bush looked in putins eyes and declared him a friend for life so don't even go there.

address the point please or stay out of it.

Now
in answer to your question..Tried enlisting once. Didn't work out too well at the recruiting station.

Only (Nazi) Truth, Dill-Doh, Drivbymoron
You chimps are either very young, or paid operatives of Move backward.org.
Your opinions are sophomoric(look it up) and without any basis in history or fact. Grow up children. I was around during the last few wars, and you turkeys don't have a clue.

Surrounding Iran

On a strategic level was the MOST LIKELY reason for going after Sadam. And if ANYONE says they knew the Mullahs in Iran (Shiite) would ally with a dictator in Syria (Sunni) they are lying.

As for coming to Sadams aid...Iran would never have done it, so tactically it was the easy move to make as well. Syria was the weak sister and wasn't going to reinforce Iraq because of it. Besides, once Sadam sent truckloads of money and whatever else (WMD?) what would Assad's incentive to help him out?

Bremer made the BIG mistake in disbanding the Iraqi army & government however. Once the power vacuum inside Iraq was created the Sunni holdouts didn't have any incentive to give up the fight (they're not Democrats you know).

Syria obviously felt threatened enough by our presence to listen to Iranian overtures about surrounding US, which totally turned the tables and put us where we are today.

I'm in agreement with anyone who wants to pull out of the biggest problem areas and let them have at it while we wait it out along the borders, sealing them at the same time.

Then we'll get more help from the Iraqis who really want to live (scr3w Maliki, he's a liar IMO). And when the Dems (and the UN) cry about the carnage we can then go back to 'battle mode' with the knowledge that many places will be target rich areas with the general population either dead or keeping their heads down.

That tactic might also split that unholy alliance between Iran & Syria.



magnificus
the idea of redeploying was murtha and most dems would agree with you.

Keep in mind though

When the Dems talk about redeployment, they mean DARFUR.....then we'll have to bleed over the same ground twice when we go back to the ME.
AND we will have to, eventually.

Magnificus
Every person I have ever heard talk blandly about slaughtering 10 or 20 million was not a veteran at least not a combat veteran. That is why I asked

Magnificus
It was common knowledge that Iran and Syria supported Hezbollah in Lebanon well more accurately Syria tolerated and allowed them.

apoplectic
We use 25% of the world's oil. Yes they have use by the short hairs but by god we have them. We can force change on Saudia and Iran thru economic needs. This is where we disagree I see Iraq as a natural ally long term. The are smart and educated they will not long tolerate a mullah in charge let them decide. Oh and do not forget the wild card the Kurds who patrol Bagdad as we speak

Tonight's Debate
The Democrats don't believe the War on Terror is real, as we saw tonight in the debate. If you want to read the FIRST discussion of tonight's Democratic debate, complete with on-the-spot humor, click on my name above. It was a scary experience. One of the candidates said, "We have no enemies." Senator Obama, answering a question about what he'd do if terrorists destroyed two American cities, basically said he's conduct an investigation into what went wrong with American intelligence. Scary. Yikes. Come visit.

steve

Steve
Thanks Steve. I missed it. Geez, they sure didn't promote this thing very well. I guess it doesn't matter, because I wouldn't consider voting for any of these big government socialists anyway.

The political pundits
Oh puke. They're saying that the little commie, Hitlery won the debate.

re: apoplectic writes:
"Clearly it has reduced the terrorist threat to US citizens outside of Iraq or Afganistan. The lack of buildings exploding in the past 4 years vs any 4 year period prior since 1990 kind of gives that one away!!"

Don't you think that's kinda of disingenuous discounting Iraq and Afghanistan? I do.

If you total all the Americans killed in terrorist attacks between 1990 and 2003 I doubt very seriously if the death count beats the number of Americans killed in the March last month.

Parsing stastics is not the way to convince on this argument.



Hal Donahue
"We can force change on Saudia and Iran thru economic needs."

Exactly how do you propose that we do that? The fact that the Saudi royals have insisted on using the dollar for all trade for OPEC oil, is one of the things that is keeping our dollar afloat. Which by the way, is one of the real reasons I think we are banging the war drums against Iran. Remember some months ago when they were talking about creating an oil bourse and stopping accepting dollars for their oil? Saddam had also stopped accepting dollars for their oil. Amazingly, they do again after we invaded.

Half Pregnant
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Shinseki

"Shinseki is famous for his remarks to the U.S. Senate Armed Services committee before the war in Iraq in which he said "something in the order of several hundred thousand soldiers" would probably be required for post-war Iraq. Rumsfeld and Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz publicly disagreed with his estimate."

One has to wonder what would have been the outcome if indeed 500,000 U.S. troops had been deployed for occupation in post-war Iraq.

Most likely the draft would have been necessary as with the Vietnam war.

The fact that the Republican politicians didn't believe the Americans had the stomach for the draft says it all for me.

After WWII, hundreds of thousands of soldiers occupied Japan. The Japanese were forced to disarm and their weapons were dumped into the Sea of Japan.

Contrast that to Bremmer who disbanded the entire Army and let the soldiers take their weapons with them.

The disdain being heaped upon the Democrats today should be more accurately heaped upon Republicans for such a backwards, retarded effort to secure post-war Iraq.

Why is the draft off the table?

Saying that an all volunteer army is the only effective way dismisses all the successes of WWII.

While it may be ideal that the military be all volunteer, if duty requires, the draft should've been enacted.

No the situation in Iraq is such a mess it is hard to imagine that rounding up all the weapons in Iraq, dumping them in the ocean, and occuppying Iraq with 500,000 troops would work.

It is sad indeed that 1.) the Republican leaders couldn't have been more wrong about modern armies and 2.) the Republican leaders have so little faith in the American public as to discount the draft both politically and in the soldiers that would be drafted.

My guess is that Republicans have learned nothing from this. If Bush were to invade Syria or Iran today, post-war efforts would be exactly the same failed efforts put forth by Rumsfield. A small, underwhelming occupation force would be used to fail.

And you all have the audacity to blame that failure on Democrats.





Liberty
China OWNS the dollar. They determine its value. Clinton may have let them into the white house but Bush sold it to them

spartacus3344
Thank you. I get a little testy (which I did) when people tell me I am less than a patriot. I think I earned my stripes. We may disagree A LOT but do not question my patriotism or that I want the best for this country. I will not question yours. I may say your deluded as you will me but let's talk issues. Like most people here I paid my dues.

magnificus
the plan would be to re-deploy to afghanistan and kuwait.

drivebyposting
Sadly you make many good points. The US military was rebuilt after Vietnam by literally thousands of officers and NCO's who gave their lives to make certain another debacle like Vietnam did not occur. Sadly they failed. But say what you will Generals like Shinseki stood their ground. Generals Like Baptiste and Eaton along with numerous other general and field grade officers retired rather than compromise their principals. No I think the military will survive GW. But we NEED to recover our troops. This military has been sacrificed on the altar of neo con nonsense. The country barely knows a war is on and thier contribution is to "shop". While soldier after soldier is sent back over and over. Volunteers? BS this mormning I spent an hour or so convincing a soldier scheduled for a third tour after his enlistment was up to go. No this administration has betrayed its military. Look here: https://pol.moveon.org/donate/videovets2.html?id=10248-5699578-iwb7rp&t=1 This is from Move On but it is a Sgt who was there and who is a Veteran. Listen to what he has to say. Congressmen like Sestek, Murphy, Carney, all military, are driving forces in the Democratic Congress. Your own Hagel supports the D's. Murtha, until his basic honesty as a military officer changed it, was far from liberal. If I am asked to identify with the likes of Murtha, Patrick, Carney Sestek or GW. I will stand proudly with those folks rather than GW.

Giving up the "long war"
It's appalling that the U.S. Central Command has given up the phrase the "long war." It describes precisely the kind of war we're really in, as the "war on terror" nonesense does not. The long war is war of militant Islam against the US and the West in general. It's roots can be argued about until doomsday, but it is no illusion.

The fact that the Republicans oppose the draft shows, as few other things so clearly demonstrate, their lack of seriousness about defending our country. Bush and company have done more than enough to be labeled as fools who have ill-served their country.

The war in Iraq is just the opening act of the long war, and, thus far, we have handled it very badly. We fantasized that it made sense to dream of bringing stable democracy to Iraq, to a people that prefers massive violence committed by one faction against another. What Iraq shows me is a whole society that has expanded on what we in the US call the "drive-by" killing. Gangs do it retail here; in Baghdad it's wholesale.

If I had even the faintest suspicion that the people who have managed---if that's the word I want--this war had something in mind besides the politics of fantasy, I'd say we had some reason to be in Iraq. Our war in Iraw is a suandering of our resources, our soldiers, the good will of countries that used to be allies, and the credibility of our government. If there was ever a real threat to American interests in Iraq, it should have been dealt with quickly, effectively, and unambiguously--with whatever level of force was necesssary to do the job. What we did NOT need to do was send in a military force that was and is much too small to be an army of occupation capable of suppressing the violence. Again, our leaders misled us badly. Our soldiers will carry out their orders, whether those orders make much sense or not, because that's what soldiers do. A young friend of mine finished his third tour in Iraq; he started out believing in the mission, and now he despises the people he could see so clearly did not want us there at all. He lost buddies, and a part of his life he can never regain. There are too many like him.

spartacus3344
"What do we do now? We certainly can't keep this up indefinitely (Iraq). Do we just pull back and let the Iraqis duke it out in a civil war and then go back and deal with who's left?" All we can do is pull back to the desert and see what the Iraqis do. I hope some sane heros will prevail but I doubt it. We will try and steer to a "managable" government. WE MUST get control od the Saudis who fund this religious nonsense and open the media. We must try and succeed with our European allies in Afghanistan, who by the way are being killed every day. Sorry Canada, our European and other allies because Canada is paying a heavy price in Afghanistan. The Brits are the experts on counter terrorism. Be gentle be generous and behind the scenes carry a very big stick. that is my two cents off the cuff


Gestell
This is a war against terrorism. We have fought terrorism since we became a country. The "real" terrorists are simply criminals. The real error we made in my opinion was when we said we were at war with them - we made them "warriors". BS they are scum and this whole dialog is not a whole lot different than the country's dialog about the Barbary Pirates. Note: pirates not warriors. Thank you for your concern about the troops and your friend. I literally cry when I leave Walter Reed after seeing them.

the dollar and oil
a lower dollar will result in higher oil cost to the US,benefit the europeans and the Chinese(becasure of their treasure trove of US dollars). There is a lot of speculation about the dollar right now many see the US economy in decline however outside of housing #'s most thing seem to be on the upswing. Tommorrows GDP report should shed some light on the situation though. But there are conflicting messages from oracles in the currency markets and the direction of the DOW and NASDAQ,although a cheaper dollar may be spurring foriegn investment.If the dollar keeps sliding buy stock in companies that export.
Sryia sides with Iran for one reason ISREAL,huge rivals in Lebanon, Iran is like Sryia's big brother to run to if picked on. As for Iraq it might be in our intrest to push a Kurdish dominated gov't.

spartacus3344
"Do you really think diplomacy will work on fanatics??" It has remember Hitler? But more important remember the old Soviet Union? They were often fanatics. Mao? Guaranteed fanatic. Come on you are no "young chicken" you know the dialog back then.

You don't have a problem with some politician declaring from thousands of miles away that the war is lost? Don't you think that Reid screwed the pooch on that one??" I would if it were true. Reid spoke half a thought and then when it was pointed out he quickly at the same news conference corrected that to unless we take other than military action. Since the generals are all saying the same thing I agree, also, since I do a bit of public speaking I understand the brain fart. Do you hear much about the rest of what he said? No because it was on the wires within 12 hours. A good job by the right but honest? Not

ch47 jockey
WOW! I agree. FYI I am glad my money is in euros and pounds

religiouslib

You are joking right?

Didn't you get the memo from Biden last week?

In an interview Sen Joe said;

"It is time to put the military on the table in Darfur...and use it"

And if you think the campaign donations from the Gen. George (c)Looney and Brangelina crowd are for a global warming promise then you really haven't been paying attention to those inside your own house.

So don't kid yourself, or try to kid me or anyone else...the Dems might have you convinced this is all above board but if you believe them then you are a bigger fool than even I have surmised from your postings.


ch47 jockey
except for the Kurd part. Turkry would not accept that

taking a beating long USD @ 1.3430
left the office and got stuck, hoping to ride it out.
Spartacus3344 Bejing also leaked info that groups in Pakistan have been operating traing camps for chinese muslim sepratist. Almost willing to bet on a Delhi/Bejing pact(informal) to pressure Musharef

They want us out anyway
I would be willing to give up the airbase in Incirlik(spelling) for one in Mosul. Turks really, don not like the Kurds at all, came to blows with a member of the pkk over a woman, not fun. But the worst confrontation I had with folks in Europe were angry young turks.

A pleasure
Folks time to call it a day. spartacus3344 thank you again and a pleasure to meet you. I too am sorry we got off on the wrong foot. Be well all.

ch47 jockey
The turks have stood by us for a long time and their military is good, Hate to lose them. And Incirlik is a great asset.

Sam
The dollar may well collapse but if you think they planned tha look at Iraq and New Orleans. GW is simply incompetent. Good NITE!

Mr. Donahue
Do you really expect a Moslem army to fly/boat/march thousands of miles to the United States and take it over? The Moslems are incapable. America is much more likely to be overun and destroyed by Mexican peasants than by Islamics. And George W. Bush abets this destruction.

If you feel so strongly about perpetual war against Islamics, I hope you will enlist. That would be the honest thing to do.

drivebyposting - don't know if you are
still here.

Just happened to be catching up in some past columns and thought I might respond in the blind.

You seem to feel that the War on Terror (bad name don't you think) is causing more terrorism? To be sure, there were only 30-40 terrorists on 9/11 (probably 8-10 per plane). Do you suppose that there were no more among the 1 billion Muslims? Now that America has dug in her heels, we are creating more than ever?

How do explain the millions seen on TV dancing in the streets of every Muslim citt around the world after 9/11? Are these the same that 'became' terrorists after we responded?

I have new for you ... They hated before 9/11. They hated us before Bush I. They hated us before Carter surrendered our embassy in Iran. They hated us before the 6 Day War. All of that hate for us was focused thru Osama Bin Laden. It had nothing to do with our response.

If you are so worried about their departure from this world and entrance into their 'Paradise' why don't you explain to them that it ends when they lay down their arms? What's that you say... They don't want to stop? That's the perils af war.

Gestell
It's uncanny how you disect them and sew them back together without them even knowing it. Good show.
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