Townhall.com, Where Your Opinion Counts
Talk Radio:   Bill Bennett   Mike Gallagher   Dennis Prager   Michael Medved   Hugh Hewitt   
BREAKING NEWS  LeftArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican   RightArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican  
Columns, funnies & more in your inbox!
  • Check the boxes and send us your email address to receveive your free newsletter
  • Your daily must-read of conservative columns, cartoons and news. Coulter, Sowell, Krauthammer and more.
  • Townhall.com’s weekly inside scoop on what’s happening behind the scenes in the world of politics. When news breaks, we report.
  • Signup to receive the latest daily Townhall cartoons
Thursday, February 22, 2007
Victor Davis Hanson :: Townhall.com Columnist
Democrats disingenuous in their anti-war rhetoric
by Victor Davis Hanson
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
[+] Text [-]
 
Poll
Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


Why did a majority of Democratic Senators - such as Joe Biden, Hillary Clinton, Chris Dodd, John Edwards, Harry Reid, Jay Rockefeller and Chuck Schumer - vote to authorize a war with Iraq on Oct. 11, 2002? And why is this war now supposedly George Bush's misfortune and not theirs?

The original fear of Iraqi weapons of mass destruction, of course, played a role in their votes - but only a role. In the 23 writs that authorized force to remove Saddam, senators at the time also cited Iraq's sanctuary and subsidies for terrorists. Then there were Saddam's attempts to assassinate a former United States president; his repression of, and use of weapons of mass destruction against, his own people; and his serial violations of both United Nations and Gulf War agreements. If paranoia over weapons of mass destruction later proved just that, these other more numerous reasons to remove Saddam remain unassailable.

Nevada's Sen. Reid summed up best the feeling of Democrats that there were plenty of reasons to remove Saddam Hussein in a post-9/11 climate. He reminded his Senate colleagues that Saddam's refusal to honor past agreements "constitutes a breach of the armistice which renders it void and justifies resumption of the armed conflict."

But it was not just fear of Saddam alone that prompted Democrats to authorize the use of force to remove him. There was the more general, liberal notion of using American arms to stop violent dictators. While the Democratic Party has a strong pacifist wing, its mainstream has always advocated a global promotion of American liberal values - sometimes through the use of preemptory force.

Many Democrats in Congress, for example, had earlier authorized George Bush Sr. to fight the first Gulf War to stop Saddam's mad drive to absorb Kuwait. In 1999, House Democrats sought, but failed, to pass congressional authorization for President Clinton's ongoing air war against Slobodan Milosevic.

Democratic leaders from Bill Clinton to Barack Obama have long lamented that the United States did not preempt in Africa to stop the Rwandan genocide. In contrast, George Bush, not Al Gore, ran for the presidency in 2000 promising to end Clinton's humanitarian interventions, whether in the Balkans, Haiti or Somalia. As then-candidate Bush put it, "I don't think our troops ought to be used for what's called nation-building."

Throughout American history, it was usually the Democratic Party that proved the more interventionist. Democratic Presidents - whether Woodrow Wilson in 1917, Franklin Delano Roosevelt in 1939-40, Harry Truman in 1950, John Kennedy in 1963 or Bill Clinton in 1999 - long battled Republican isolationists who insisted that it was never in America's interest to fight costly wars abroad unless directly attacked by a foreign nation.

Again, why then did the majority of Democratic Senators vote for the present war in October 2002?

One, they rightly concurred with the president's post-9/11 conversion to the idea that removing a Middle Eastern mass-murdering regime and leaving a consensual government in its place could be a key component in winning the war against Islamic terrorism. And two, their party had always believed that the United States can sometimes make things better abroad by stopping tyrants and dictators.

By the same token, why do many of these same initial supporters of the Iraq war four years later now promise either to withdraw troops or to cut off funds, and so often hedge on or renounce their past records?

Partisan advantage explains much of the present posturing against an opposition president. But mostly, the rising Democratic furor comes as a reflection of public anger at the costs of the war -- and the sense that we are not winning.

Unlike the invasion of Panama (1989), the Gulf war (1991), the Balkans war (1999) or even the Afghanistan conflict (2001-2007), Iraq has taken over 3,000 American lives. Had the reconstruction of Iraq gone as relatively smoothly as the three-week removal of Saddam, most Democratic candidates would now be heralding their past muscular support for democratic change in Iraq.

So instead of self-serving attacks on the present administration, Democratic senators and candidates should simply confess that while most of the earlier reasons to remove Saddam remain valid, the largely unforeseen costs of stabilizing Iraq in their view have proved too high, and now outweigh the dangers of leaving.

But they should remember one final consideration. The next time a Democratic administration makes a case for using America's overwhelming military force to preempt a Milosevic or a mass murderer in Darfur - and history suggests that one will - the Democrats' own present disingenuous anti-war rhetoric may come back to haunt them, ensuring that such future humanitarian calls will probably fall on ears as deaf as they are partisan.

Share:
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
 
About The Author
Victor Davis Hanson is a classicist and historian at the Hoover Institution, Stanford University, and a recipient of the 2007 National Humanities Medal.

Be the first to read Victor Davis Hanson's column. Sign up today and receive Townhall.com delivered each morning to your inbox.

The Well
A bigger question rises in their running for president.These are legislators. They have priviliges in playing both sides, and the fortune of not being accountable on results -individually.

The question is are these the guys you'd vote for, the carreer legislators? All the experience they give, including McCain are as legislators. That means what, that they no how to walk the ropes of legislation?

Tony Blair
"Heck, even Tony Blair, who claimed pulling out of Iraq would be the worst thing that could happen, is doing just that."

Kimberly, you might do a little fact-checking before you spout off. First, know a little about the subject of which you are talking.

Great Britain's troops were responsible for southern Iraq. At this time, southern Iraq is pretty calm, so Prime Minister Blair feels his troops are not required; their mission has been completed.

Hanson's arguments
Hanson: "So instead of self-serving attacks on the present
administration, Democratic senators and candidates should simply confess that while most of the earlier reasons to remove Saddam
remain valid, the largely unforeseen costs of stabilizing Iraq in their
view have proved too high, and now outweigh the dangers of leaving."

I think that is what many (not all of the Dems) are saying.
There is also "the Bush lied" crowd which is true enough.

Hanson: "The next time a Democratic administration makes a case for using America's overwhelming military force to preempt a Milosevic or
a mass murderer in Darfur - and history suggests that one will - the Democrats' own present disingenuous anti-war rhetoric may come back to haunt them, ensuring that such future humanitarian calls will probably fall on ears as deaf as they are partisan."

The problem with this humanitarian foreign policy analogy is that these
are still going on. We were "stopping" Saddam years after the fact,
and after we had given him tacit approval.
I would think it was wonderful if we redeployed are men to Darfur.
But would the American public?
(for what it's worth I'd also be for trebling the troops in Iraq to win
the war - let's be in it to win it or get out. What's with "stabilization"?)

Lastly, I've always wondered why people couldn't understand
that as a situation changed people changed their mind.
Especially, in this case, where they tell you why they changed their
mind! Read the Congressional Record Hanson!

Kimberly
Most of what you put in your comments is incorrect.

There was no cherry picking of intelligence [investigations have shown this] and what did Bush "lie" about. Any looking at the facts will show that this intelligence was shown to the Senators and Congress people.

Blair is taking some troops out of Iraq he is not "pulling out"

Your comments are those that appear at most left liberal anti-Bush sites.

Nasty Lucies of the Democrat(ick) Party

It never fails.

Every year Lucy holds the ball for Charlie Brown, inticing him to kick it. Now, Charlie Brown knows what she is up to, but she lies and cajoles until he relents, and takes the bait.

And you know the rest of the story.

He runs and starts to kick the ball, but Lucy pulls it away just as he gets there, and then she says; "you Blockhead, Charlie Brown!!!"

The Democrat(ick)s pulls the same kind of tricks on the Republicans, who take the bait, and then the Leftists and their willing accomplices in the media start nattering as if they had nothing to do with it.

To paraphrase David Geffin, it is frightening how easily they lie.

Dem's voted on information by Bill
When the Democrats voted to go to war, it was done on the information provided by Bill Clinton and endorsed by Hillary in her speeches against weapons of mass destruction. In reality, the Democrats thought they were still supporting Bill Clinton by their votes. The Democrats also thought they were supporting Hillary, knowing the numerous amount of speeches she made about Saddam if left in power. The removal of Saddam, which the Democrats and Hillary seems to forget was an executive order signed by Bill Clinton to remove Saddam from power. When the Democrats voted, it was a vote of confidence in Bill Clinton as President and not so much on the war against terrorism. It wasn't National Security which prompted the Democrats to vote to go to war. It was done solely out of politics to protect Bill Clinton to show his private life didn't conflict with his job as President to protect the American people. A vote against going to war would have been a vote of no confidence, in light of the first attack on the Twin Towers and the second attack on 9/11. Again, the Democrats with their vote to go to war were still protecting Bill Clinton because this time, our reaction couldn't be handle as a police action, as it was done by Bill Clinton after the first attack on the Twin Towers. The Democrats had no choice, but to vote to go to war, only to save face with the American people for having Bill Clinton as President. Even after chasing Osama in Afghanistan and removing Saddam in Iraq, the Democrats are still in their politics mode. Nothing in the way of their complaints, rhetoric, and propaganda has been shown to benefit this country or our troops in Iraq. The Democrats while in their politics mode can't and won't see how their complaints, rhetoric, and propaganda is aiding the terrorist more then it is our troops. In reality, because of the politics mode the Democrats seem to be stuck in, they've used their complaints, rhetoric, and propaganda against President Bush, the war in Iraq and our troops just for the November elections and the 2008 elections. So, in order to still cover for Bill Clinton and the memory loss Hillary has in the numerous speeches she made about weapons of mass destruction, the Democrats embarked on the Bush lied campaign to once again cover for the fact they voted not so much for the American people but for the Clinton's and the information they passed on to President Bush. Just a side note. President Bush hadn't been in office long enough to have the type of information which was handed to him to base his decision to go to war. The gathering of information to go to war was Bill Clinton and his Democrats. So, who lied again based on the information President Bush had?

Just what world are you living in?
You must feel really really bad about this war to defend it so lamely. Let's be clear, the only reason anyone agreed to start the first preemptive war in our history was because of the threat of nuclear weapons that was sold to us. Without that, the march to war would have ended very quickly. Why did Democrats go along? That is a very disengenuous question if you were paying attention at the time. After a terrorist attack that killed over 3,000 people, it wasn't hard to get the legislative branch to get behind pre-empting a nuclear attack. Any other reason (Sadaam being bad guy, giving money to Hezbollah, etc.) is strictly an excuse since there are many equally murderous dictators in the world and some now have a lot more potential for atomic mayhem than Iraq ever did. I would guess that if Clinton saw the same evidence as Bush, despite any previous political rhetoric, he would have made the correct decision not to invade Iraq. Instead, he would have bombed the crap out of Al Queda training facilities that we were protecting in Iraq under the Northern no-fly umbrella and spent his time and treasure to capture Bin Laden.

Call me simple, but none of the 9/11 hijackers came from Iraq, nor did any of the planners or the cash to fund the operation. Where did it come from? Saudi Arabia of course. How the hell do they get a free pass? Why is their form of anti-democratic behavior OK when the same behavior in another country is a crime? We are being so played by the Saudi's it's unbelievable. If you really need more evidence, then why does Dick Cheney rush to visit them at their request? Do you honestly think he would do that for anyone else?

You probably haven't seen this, but when I have travelled in friendly Muslim countries (the "stans"), I am amazed to find shiny new mosques all along the roadsides. When I ask, I hear that these have all been funded by the Saudi's and, surprise, they are being used to stash explosives and hide terrorists who are trying to create fundamentalist regimes out of moderate ones.

There is no question where regime change needed to occur after 9/11, but with Bandar Bush in the White House, there wasn't a chance in hell of that. There's no chance we'll catch Osama while Bush is in the White House either. He seems to have lost interest in that pursuit - could it have anything to do with his close relationship with Osama's father?.....

Adrift in compromise.
The dems, like water (and has spineless)follow the course of least resistance. In '02 it was easier for them to vote for the war because of the climate of the country. But after more than 5 years of beating by the main stream media and Hollywood loser celebs the climate has changed, so now they follow a different path. It's not that they believed earlier but don't now, it's more that they don't believe anything anymore, least of all intangible ideas like freedom, liberty, and self sacrifice. Bush is so hated because he is so different then most politians. He truely believes in these things and chooses to operate under "right and wrong" ideals. There is very little grey in him, very little compromise.

Note for everyonesfacts
And all others like him/her. Once you commit your military you don’t have the luxury of changing your mind. You create a chaotic mess that can not be forgiven. I don’t care what reason you use for not living up to your commitments it's sheer selfishness. I say that as someone who was in Iraq in uniform twice. All you wishy washy busybodies make me sick. I despise you all for that fact that you live off the service of better men and women than you’ll ever be.

The sad thing is
the Democrats and their partisan camp followers like Kimberly would still be crowing about the 17 UN Resolution violations, and what a baddy Slobedan Hussein was, if it had been Bill Clinton or any other Democrat prosecuting this war.

Mr. Hanson is correct when he says, "and history suggests that one will".

I'd be a whole lot more sympathetic to their criticisms of the war in Iraq if they hadn't consistently demonstrated their chief aim is purely partisan rather than principled and once in power will use the military for international interventionism once again, as they have always done, to further their own world vision.

But Mr. Hanson's suggestion that "the Democrats' own present disingenuous anti-war rhetoric may come back to haunt them, ensuring that such future humanitarian calls will probably fall on ears as deaf as they are partisan" is simply wishful thinking and giving the American people more credit than they have shown they deserve.

The rise of Hillary and Barak Hussein Obama's popularity shows that you can fool a lot of the people most of the time. And the constant prattling and resistance to any form of reasoned discourse from the Kimberly types in here simply underscores that point.

Uhh, Saddam's already dead & gone...
So, uhh... what are we still doing in Iraq? Fighting "the enemy"? You know...the insurgency?

Well, we created that, so we only have ourselves to blame.

Oh, I'm sorry--were you expecting flowers instead of IUDs? Sheesh--those ungrateful Arabs! See if we ever share our freedom with them again!

Thanks
to ArticPara8 and all the brave men and women who truly serve our nation. The politicians by and large are not fit to polish your boots.

Dark Messiah Wrong
You are way off the mark, Dark Messiah.

First of all, we are not getting our butts kicked in Iraq and Afghanistan. Your rhetoric does not remotely match the situatons there at all. In fact, contrary to your rhetoric, whenerver the foreign jihadists and insurgents fight in Iraq, they get their butts kicked. The same is true of the Taliban in Afghanistan. My older son is a US Army First Lieutenant (with Ranger tab) serving in Iraq, and last November, when my older son's unit fought an al Qaeda military cell trying to become embedded in nearby Sunni villages, that cell was wiped out; all that was left was a store of weapons that were seized. The problem is in IEDs and suicide bombers aiming at terrorizing the Iraqi people to cause it to lose confidence in their government and at interrupting a civil life. A certin contrast here should be noted: in my older son's area of responsibility, the US Army built two schools for the Iraqis; a suicide bomber blew up a girls' school because the radical Islammists don't want girls educated. That the problem of IEDs and suuicide bombings has persisted for years is why we have moved to a "clear and hold" strategy, aided by a surge of ttroops, in order to ferret out, isolate and marginalize insurgents and their foreign jihad supporters. We intend to kick butt. Already, the Shiite Sadr has instead run off to Iran.

Secondly, what now is in power in both Iraq and Afghanistan are democraticaly elected governments. The Iraqi people bravely voted three times in the process of adopting a written Constitution and electing their leadership. Also, both countries are doing mush better economically. Saddam drove Iraq into the ground economically, and the Taliban were hardly exponents of economic growth. What we all should face up to is that radical Islamists in hte area hate the idea of secular democracies working in the Middle East. They know the stakes. That is why Hezbollah attacked the cedar revolution in Lebanon and why Iran and al Qaeda have been seeking to undermine Iraq's and Afgahnistan's young democracies. This is not a situation for this nation to be ashamed of at all; we have tried to propel people to consensual government and economic freedom. It is our adversaries who are the culprits.

We are in conflict with radical Islamists who are murderous totalitarians. Your song is for mindless Bush hating nitwits living in a pre-9/11 world who are not facing up to the challenges before us in the 21st century.

Bush lied?
To anyone who believes Bush lied, I invite you to visit http://www.freedomagenda.com/iraq/wmd_quotes.html. It is a series of quotes from the big guns of the dems, telling us how bad Saddam is and how we have to DO SOMETHING! They're all there, Billary, non-stop Nancy, Harry, Ted, Howard Dean, and others, telling us time after time how bad the situation was and well, we just can't possibly sit here and let such things go on. It prints out to 41 pages. They all believed that Saddam had wmd and was pursuing nuclear weapons. And, Kimberly, it has been verified that they were right. They do not oppose the war because they truly believe that there was no justification for it, they oppose it because they fear we might win, and the democrat party just can't survive that. They oppose it because a Republican is leading it. And W at that, the most hated Republican of all.

Look out...
New favorite words of Kimberly...hardliners, Bushies, deceived. Doesn't everyone feel smarter now? Oops. I forgot the coined phrase: cherry-picked intelligence.

Classic VD
VD's schizophrenia continues. He both cheers on the war and predictably blames the Democrats, natch, for its failure.

Both parties have unconstitutionally propounded this carnage. Masquerading as patriots, the neocons, "consultants," and DOD-DHS contractors are making millions a year. Of our money. There are tens of BILLIONS they can't even account for. Where's the outrage?

One thing sure, they will never blame themselves. And they will wring out of the average Joe every drop of patriotism, goodwill, and support, and then toss him aside while they keep on cashing in.

It's time for the partisan cheerleading to face the music: both parties are corrupt, and the war is illegal. VD, go look in the mirror when you look for scapegoats.

Kimberly...
Ahhh, once again you've fallen into the lies promoted by the dinosaur media (I can't even call them "mainstream" any longer).

Didn't excercise every option? How much longer was he supposed to wait for the UN (which was aiming to stall things to such an extent that Saddam's regime would have been saved (see the details in the oil for fraud scandal and all the UN officials and member government leaders who were making billions on the scam).

As to the intel being cherry picked and lied about? Where was the cherry picking? The daily intel briefs were more alarmist than the National Intelligence Estimate, a much more toned down and nuanced version of the daily brief, and based on that, not the daily brief, Congress authorized the use of force. The claims that he lied about it? Again, where were the lies, and were those the same lies told by the British, French, Germans, Russians, Chinese, Saudis, Yemenis, Qatarians, Egyptians, Jordanians, and even the UN's own intelligence branch? All those intelligence services stated the same thing: Saddam had, continues to hold and is working to develop and manufacture additional WMDs.

I suggest that you read the authorization for force. There is no statement, explicit, implicit or otherwise that required the president to exhaust every other option, as you call it, before forcibly removing Saddam's regime.

There has never been any statement of ties to 9/11 by Saddam from the administration, on the contrary, the administration had gone out of its way to make it known that all their intelligence has concluded that Saddam had no links to 9/11. Again, more lies from the media, and such pillars of virtue and integrity such as Howard Dean, Jay Rockefeller and Ted Kennedy.

As to truth about WMDs, I suggest something extremely novel for a liberal; ACTUALLY READ SOMETHING BEYOND THE FIRST SENTENCE. Try reading David Kay's and Charles Dulfur's reports to the president on Iraq and WMDs. Both conluded that the prospect of finding large caches of WMDs or a central research and production facility were almost nonexistent, however, they both stated categorically that the reason for this was because during the run up to our entering Iraq (during that time when Bush wasn't exhausting other options) the stockpiles Saddam had were moved out and taken, through Syria, to the Beka Valley. Charles Dulfur, who expanded the research found the following; Saddam had split up his WMD programs among branches of his secret services, so the result was that small clandestine operations were scattered throughout Iraq. These findings also tie in closely to an episode that occurred at the end of January, 2003 in Manchester England, but that's for another time.

Prince Harry has nothing to do with the Brits starting to phase themselves out from around Basra. The situation on the ground there is the reason for why Blair is doing what he's doing. As more and more regions become completely controlled by Iraqi civil and military components, more and more coalition forces will be leaving as a result. When asked about the planned withdrawl of 1,600 British troops (not the complete pullout that you claim it to be), Vice President Cheney stated categorically that it's a good sign that the situation in Iraq continues to stabilize. And before you start in with your caterwauling about bombings etc, think about this; the vast majority of the violence occurs in an area that is approximately 30 miles wide by 40 miles long, in and around Baghdad, and there are about 1,000 convoys that travel the roadways of Iraq daily, and how many are hit?

I thank your for the opportunity to try to teach you some history (based on fact, not the incoherent agenda driven drivel of people who hate this country and its exceptionalism), but I fear that it will fall on deaf ears.

Wow
The hatred of President George Bush really does cloud the mind of the Liberals. Here are some links to counter Kimberly's comments. These were article written by Larry Elder and are well worth the read.

http://jewishworldreview.com/cols/elder052506.asp
http://jewishworldreview.com/cols/elder020504.asp
http://jewishworldreview.com/cols/elder012204.asp

For the love of all things righteous, dont let hate control your judgement.

Respectfully,

Tom

It was not their idea
Whether or not Democrats went along with Bush, it was not their idea. There was no Democratic push to invade Iraq. They did not bungle the operation.

It seems to me that the Democrats in 2002 supported Bush because they did not have the courage to oppose him and the invasion would have gone forward even if they had. They were worried that they would suffer politically if the invasion were a success.

Other factors mentioned above: (1) the resolution wasn't really authorization to invade, and (2) misrepresentation of intellegence.

Now, Democrats want to withdraw. Like it or not, they are the best politicians we have in Washington right now. Would you rather have Republicans??


Tunneler
Your post is superb...it may fall on the monkey's deaf ears, but not on mine. I love when people can be so articulate. When it comes to Kimberly, I admit, I cannot. See yesterday's posts on the Malkin column from 1300 on...somewhere in there she posts and then so did I. She makes me crazy with her drivel and shi**ing on the President/troops all the time. I can't let her get away that.
Thanks.

Copy of Iraq War Resolution
Link for the official Iraq War Resolution voted on by the Dems and as you see cleary it does give all authorization for war. Go on facts... Not feelings.

Tom


http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=107_cong_public_laws&docid=f:publ243.107

Yomama
Saddam Hussein was an obvious target because he invaded two of his neighbors. There are all kinds of murderous thugs ruling other countries, but none of them has that kind of track record.

As for Saudi Arabia, yes, it would be nice to take them out. But think about it. Saudi Arabia hasn't invaded anyone, and they are the birthplace of Islam. Just recently, on Memri tv (look it up), a Syrian was complaining about Iran and how it wanted to take over Mecca and Medina. The Zionists, he said, merely wanted to take Jerusalem. And the Americans, he said, merely wanted oil, while the Iranians wanted to kill Sunnis.

If we were to invade Saudi Arabia, the whole Islamic world would be inflamed, and to a much greater degree than they are now. It would be impossible.

We should probably be doing something to counter the shiny new mosques that you have seen in the "stans." Maybe funding lots of new schools or something.

i only found one error in the story
it's the democrat party, not the democratic

They Voted for it - and they reviewed it
The Democrats voted for the war - they approved it until things began to get difficult - they approved the war time leaders - promoting General Casey, et al to the positions of chief strategists - and they approved Rumsfeld who they now villify.
I love Secretary Rumsfeld and I believe that he will go down in history as truly one of the greatest SecDefs. He modernized the military - driving the entrenched Pentagon crowd to make changes necessary to fight a war such as this. He certainly did his part in removing Saddam and his two crazy sons. The military and supporting cast have done everything that has been asked of them, including tasks best left to the political scientists.
I think taking the gloves off will help the military to get a firm hold on the security problems in Baghdad. These terrorists understand nothing but ruthless force. No better friend - no worse enemy should be their total understanding of the American Fighting man
Semper Fi.

liberalgoodman...
The Democrats are the best we have in Washington DC right now? Are you kidding me? Are you telling me that you would trust the security of this country to the likes of:

Hitlery Rottenhams,
Harry "Have I got a land deal for you" Reid,
Ted "Chapaquidick" Kennedy,
Barney "It was my boyfriend who was running the prostitution ring out of my apartment" Frank,
Sloe Joe Biden,
Robert "KKK" Byrd,
John "I secretly negotiated with Le Duc Ho in Paris, in 1972, for the complete surrender of all allied forces in southeast asia" Kerry,
"San Fran Nan" Pelosi,
Amy Klobuchar,
Jim "I'm a pompous a**hole" Webb,
Maxine "I hate the evil investment firm of Solomon Barney Frank" Waters,
Sheliah Jackson (her gaff is to long to print here) Lee,
Dennis "When I'm president I'll eliminate the Department of Defense and replace it with the Department of Peace and place it all under UN control" Kucinich,
Keith "I'm swearing my fealty to the US on a book that is antithetical to the constitution" Ellison,

and the list goes on and on and on.

There is a big difference between liberals and conservatives, we give our representatives a chance to do the right thing, and if they fail, they're gone (see Mike DeWine, Lincoln Chaffee, etc.), the dems, on the other hand, just lockstep behind whoever has 'D' behind their names. Two classic examples are the 10th district in Ohio (Dennis Kucinich) and the 5th in Minnesota (Keith Ellison), the dems in those districts would vote for Adolf Hitler, if he were put on the ticket, as long as he had that magic 'D' after his name. How do I know? I lived in both of those districts and I couldn't comprehend the depths of mindless idiocy that those district Democrats had descended to.


Man up Hanson!
Why can't Republicans just own up to the fact that a Republican administration lead the charge in the worst foriegn policy decision this country has ever made?

And what exactly is disingenuous about voting to give authorization and then regretting that decision after a) realizing that they were manipulated into believing the threat was worse than it was, b) watching the president go to war before exhausting all other options (like he said he would), and c) watching helplessly as the Commander In Chief blows EVERY critical decision involved in the occupation?

What's truly disingenuous is the way Republicans like Victor Davis Hanson are attempting to make the Democrats equally culpable for this fiasco.

You know d@mn well, Mr. Hanson, that the country would never have supported this war if the White House hadn't made the threat seem more menacing and more eminent that it really was. Let's be clear: ALL of the responsiblity for this mess falls squarly on the shoulders of Bush's White House. When are Republicans like Hanson going to man-up and admit it, instead of pointing to the Democrats and squeeling like little girls "They wanted to do it too! They wanted to do it too!"

Phylo out.



crippling of intelligence
Through the Church Commission in 1974, Democrats virtually stripped the CIA of serious covert operations. If the intelligence prior to 2003's invasion of Iraq was faulty, that original emasculation of foreign intelligence devolves back to the Dems. of the post-Wstergate era. As far as "cherry picking" intell, all info for everything is cherry picked. The NY Times doesn't pub. EVERYTHING that is available to it. Editors pick and choose what they pub. They decide if stories appear above or below the "fold." They spotlight stories with huge headlines or bury them on page 24. In 2003, EVERYONE in the world believed Saddam had WMS and would use them aggressively: these countries included China, Russia, India, the entire "West," the general "Middle East," Australia, and Japan. The UN believed it. Saddam was forewarned by a half doz. UN resolutions. He had abrogated the 1991 agreements by shooting at US and British planes in so-called neutral zones, refusing weapons inspections and banishing inspectors from suspected sites, mass murders and genocidal treatment of his own countrymen--esp. the Shiites and Kurds, and seeking uranium and other weapons' making materials--verified by the British, the Czechs, and even former. Amb. Joe Wilson (according to the joint Cong. committee invest. Wilson's erroneous public reporting of his "finds"). Kim must be too young or too uneducated to remember as to genocide, the founding of the UN was to memorialize "never again." Wars are messy. When we invaded France to conlcude WW II, we bombed our own men, dropped parachutists in the wrong places, sent men onto beaches that were nearly impossible to secure--and were only at a huge cost in men and blood--but the Reps. of the WW II era weren't out to detroy FDR, his presidency and administrationm, and the US in the process, and newsmen and women weren't anti-American and pro-Nazi. No conflict can be addressed nationally with the poisonous media continuously attacking and undermining the very nation that supports its freedoms and choices. And if Kim doesn't think the news isn't managed and cherry picked to support a negative agenda, she needs a course in remedial education.

To Victor from Vic
No they didn't wait for the war to start before they started bloviating against it. The only reason most of the Dems voted for this war is the same reason that they are against now. Bush forced the vote just before the election. At the time, the public was for the war and a vote against it would have cost the Dems at the ballot box. Once the election was over, the Dems turned in mass and commenced yapping against the war as hard as they could. Their yapping has not changed,

RNMedic, sharkie, et al...
The Democrats did indeed vote for the resolution, as everyone has agreed and conceded time and again. This is not in question.

Post 9/11 was a scary time for everyone (remember??), and no politician (but for a scant few) would ever have willingly gone against king and country when so many had lost so much.

But what the Republicans fail to appreciate--from folks like you all the way to those in the House & Senate--is that the resolution was knowingly drafted with inaccurate intelligence.

We went to war to unearth WMDs, to depose a dictator, and to proselytize the American Way. All but the first were true. Yet it was the first--the WMDs, and Saddam's history of their use--that formed the basis of the war resolution.

The Bush administration was vehement in its assertion that Al Qaeda and Iraq were somehow in cahoots, but this connection was fabricated, meant only to reinforce the danger in the minds of Americans and to ensure swift passage of the resolution.

Of course, what had NOT been a haven for Al Qaeda and terrorist activity has become just that!--a theater to which extremists now flock to wage their Jihad. We've have indeed become the architects of our own undoing.

So here we are, embroiled in a 4-year war that was sold to us with mostly fabricated information, with an enemy that now has every justification to fight back, a global community that has lost all respect for us and our way of life, and with our country at odds with itself more than ever. This is not the America I've read about.

"Naturally, the common people don't want war, but they can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. Tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and endangering the country. It works the same in every country."

–Herman Goering, at the Nuremberg trials


I've never been called unpatriotic more than I have since 9/11.

Tunneler
Very good post to Kimbat, but I'm afraid you are waisting your time with her. She has been confronted with logic and facts countless times, but she will never respond....she will simply show up tomorrow and spout the EXACT same whacko nonsense.

Anything that doesn't fit into her twisted, bizarre, hate-filled world is only white noise.

Facts
In 1998, the entire Dem. Cong. passed legislation to remove Saddam from office, as per request of the Clinton White House. Don't turn around now and try to claim Dems. were never intested in attacking Iraq or the Middle East until Bush somehow "forced" them to make some "difficult" political decision. They had already made the decision law in the previous adminstration. After that 1998 procedure, Clinton did send some bombing overseas, ostensibly to kill ben Laden in Afghanistan, but Clinton and his lawyers dickered too long over when and where to allow the military to act, and, lo and hehold, they were too late and missed. Clinton, according to the Sudan, could've had ben Laden in 1996, when the Sudan was expelling him, but the Clinton White House and its State Dep't were so busy selling missile secrets to China to fund its pres. campaign, neither had time to answer the Sudan--oddly, a place libs. are agitating for us to invade now because of its own civil war. Go figure.

Democrat war support
The Democrat party supported the war because it was politically advantageous. Now they oppose it for the same reason. It is easy to flip flop when you have no principles to guide you.

Hansen is right in his conclusions, but given the apathy of the American populace, I would bet the Democrat party is counting on us forgetting the next time one of their humanitarian wars springs up, and their loyal supporters don't need convincing anyways, they'll just support wherever the rhetoric sounds best. Add the MSM to counter those with other viewpoints and to keep information out (like it is doing now with the support these democrats once had, out of sight, out of mind...) and the stage is set for no significant opposition. We already hear the drumbeats of their next project being Darfur.

Lack of principles: defining aspect of the current Democrat party.

anti-war rhetoric/pro-war "lies"
The DNC's anti-war rhetoric will never come back to haunt them. The mainstream media is far too polite to ever remind other liberals of what they said in the past. They save that for conservatives.

All snippiness aside, anyone who claims that they "were sold" the idea of going into Iraq on the basis of possible nukes is basically admitting that the only part of any of the Bush administration's comments that they ever attended to was the "mushroom cloud over New York" sound byte. In the whole year and a half "rush" to war with Iraq, that is all they heard. They only unplugged from Moby long enough to hear that.

No way would I admit to having been in such a fog.

loyalizer
Your entire post is a fabrication.

Try Daily Kos.

sharkie
I'll set aside your delusional comments about Rumsfeld for now and just focus on your other delusion.

sharkie: "I think taking the gloves off will help the military to get a firm hold on the security problems in Baghdad. These terrorists understand nothing but ruthless force."

Phylo: Tell me smart guy: Who, exactly, are we supposed to get tough with? The Sunnis? They're the ones who are causing most of the problems over there. They are also Iraqis; you know, the people we're supposed to be liberating.

Or are we supposed to get tough with Shiite death squads? After all, they're operating with the blessing of the Iraqi government. Are we supposed to get tough and start killing the Iraqi officials?

In case you didn't know, al Queda represents a very small percentage of the casualities over there sharkie. So what you're really talking about, when you talk about getting tough, is killing Iraqis.

You see, here's the problem: Our military has been given a mission it cannot possibly complete. The military is designed to kill people and break things, but what we're asking them to do is exactly the opposite: we're asking them to make friends and build things.

When are you jarheads going to realize that, no matter how much force we apply over there, it's not going to make them like us any more. At this point, the very best we can hope for is a stable government. And unfortunately, that government is going to be more friendly to Iran than to us. In other words, even if we succeed to our wildest dreams, we will only have succeeded in making our enemy stronger.

Wake up sharkie. You're delusional.

Phylo out.

Loyalizer
One simple and glaring problem with your comments and theories about a post-9/11 Congress and Bush's "fabricated" intel.

How do you explain all the "Iraq is a threat, and Saddam must be removed" comments by the Dems during the 1990s (BEFORE 9/11 and BEFORE Bush)?

Did Bush use his time machine and evil mind control powers?

Loyalizer
You don't seem unpatriotic, just wrong.

If the intelligence was inaccurate, how would they have been able to make a better judgment? Those who claim that had access to the same intelligence, and they believed it. Everyone acted on what was best known at the time.

Also, Al quaeda was in Iraq, and they did receive support. That has been proven. But the only way to assert such now and be accurate is to say that Iraq never had a hand in 9/11. A link between Iraq and al qaeda and Iraq and 9/11 aren't the same thing.

You only substantial claim is that resolution was drafted with intelligence that was known to be wrong AT THE TIME IT WAS DRAFTED. Since the president has the same access to information that the senators did, do you care to explain how that is so?

Rush to war? I dont see it :(
-Iraqi aircraft intentionally attacked the USS Stark in May 1987, killing 37 sailors

-After the Gulf War in 1991, no-fly zones were established in northern and southern Iraq to protect the Iraqi Kurds and Shiites from Saddam's forces. The U.S. military enforced these no-fly zones up until the second Iraq war in March 2003. Iraq considered this an affront to its sovereignty and in December 1998 began shooting at American aircraft patrolling these zones. On March 28, 2001, General Tommy Franks reported to the House Armed Services Committee that during the prior year alone, coalition forces had flown nearly 10,000 sorties inside Iraqi airspace and those aircraft were engaged by surface-to-air missiles or anti-aircraft fire more than 500 times

-In late-April 1993, the United States learned that terrorists had attempted to assassinate Bush during his visit to Kuwait and evidence indicated that the Iraqi Intelligence Service (IIS) was behind the assassination attempt.On August 20, 1998, President Bill Clinton ordered a cruise missile attack against a chemical weapons factory in Sudan. The cruise missle strike was in retaliation for the August 7, 1998 truck bomb attacks on U.S. embassies in Tanzania and Kenya which killed more than 200 people and wounded more than 5,000 others. The chemical weapons factory in Sudan was funded, in part, by Osama bin Laden who the U.S. believed responsible for the embassy bombings. Richard Clarke, a national security advisor to President Clinton, told the Washington Post in a January 23, 1999 article that the U.S. government was "sure" that Iraqi nerve gas experts had produced a powdered substance at that plant for use in making VX nerve gas.

-On November 5, 1998 a Federal grand jury in Manhattan returned a 238-count indictment charging Osama bin Laden in the bombings of two United States Embassies in Africa and with conspiring to commit other acts of terrorism against Americans abroad. The grand jury indictment also charged that Al-Qaeda had reached an arrangement with President Saddam Hussein's government in Iraq whereby the group said that it would not work against Iraq, and that the two parties agreed to cooperate in the development of weapons.

-On January 14, 1999, ABC News reported, "Saddam Hussein has a long history of harboring terrorists.

-Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, a director of an al Qaeda training base in Afghanistan, fled to Iraq after being injured as the Taliban fell (prior to the U.S./Iraq war). He received medical care and convalesced for two months in Baghdad. He then opened a terrorist training camp in northern Iraq and arranged the October 2002 assassination of U.S. diplomat Lawrence Foley in Amman, Jordan.

-12 years of debilitating sanctions

-Saddam Hussein paid $25,000 bonuses to the families of Palestinian homicide bombers.

-On October 14, 2001, a former Iraqi army captain named Sabah Khodada granted an interview to the PBS television program "Frontline" in which he talked about a terrorist training camp in Iraq called Salman Pak After the fall of Saddam's government, coalition forces found and destroyed a terrorist training camp located near Baghdad called Salman Pak. This terrorist training camp featured an airplane fuselage where Iraqi defectors had earlier reported foreign terrorists were being trained in hijacking aircraft.

-After the 9/11 attacks, Saddam became the only world leader to offer praise for bin Laden, even as other terrorist leaders, like Yassir Arafat, went out of their way to make a show of sympathy to the U.S. by donating blood to 9/11 victims on camera. Saddam later pays tribute to 9/11 by having a mural painted depicting the World Trade Center attack at an Iraqi military base in Nasariyah.


Phylo, et. al
Let the historians debate whether or not we should have gone into Iraq in the first place; that is their job.

WMD? Yes they have been found - admittedly degraded and in small caches, and some attempts have been made to utilize them in IEDs. Bush never explicitly stated that we were under imminent threat of nuclear attack from Iraq - they did not and do not have the missile technology to reach us - the Chinese and N Koreans do thanks to St. Bills technology transfers for the Chinese 'space program'.

Terror? Yes, Saddam DID pay the families of dead dumb bombers who had killed Israeli civilians. And members of al-qaeda were believed to have been in contact with him before and after 9/11. Doesn't matter that Saddam and Osama hated each other: The enemy of my enemy is my friend (or at least acquaintance) is operative here

Finally, as has already been pointed out, Saddam's history strongly suggested that if he were to acquire reliable WMD he would use them.

Face it, why we are there is no longer relevant to the fact that we ARE there. And the Dem 'solution' seems to be 'lets leave and let the Iraqis sort it all out'; thereby invalidating the sacrifice of the 3000+ dead they claim to be so excised about.

Nobody here wants to...
"They voted to authorize Bush to pursue every option BEFORE going to war. Which he didn't, did he? They were also basing their decision on "intelligence" that Bush cherry-picked and lied about, making the decision one that shouldn't be a permanent mark against the majority, because they WERE lied to. And by the way, would this not be considered treason on Bush's part?

It is now quite well documented that Bush's War was waged with very little truth supporting his accusations. No one would've given him the go ahead without the trumped-up threat of WMD and Iraq-9/11 ties that Cheney, Bush and Rice promoted so shamelessly and deceptively.

Equating what Bush has done in the buildup to this war with past presidents does not alter the fact that he deceived a nation, attempted to deceive the world and mostly failed, and is still deceiving us to this day. Heck, even Tony Blair, who claimed pulling out of Iraq would be the worst thing that could happen, is doing just that. Not a vote of confidence for the Bushies. Perhaps having Prince Harry bravely joining the charge gave England pause - as it would the US if Bush's wild, useless twins should do the same. A little royal sacrifice changes the tune of the hardliners, no?"

Your rhetoric...If you want someone to hear your lunatic ideas go to the Huffington blog and post away!

Between Iraq and a hard place!
As far as whether starting the war was wise: it is really what the accountants call "sunk cost." We are there now and there's no point in debating how we got there or whether it was a bad decision at the start. The only choices to consider are : should we pull out and cut losses or press on? It is a real dilemma. If we were to pull out too soon, Iraq would become a terrible killing ground, the same as it was in Vietnam and Cambodia, when we pulled out of Vietnam. It will become a haven for terrorists and base of operations training for future domestic attacks against us. The main difference is that when we left Vietnam they were merely glad we were gone. If we leave Iraq they will follow us home.

It is more difficult to predict the outcome if we stay. But certainly all the defeatist talk only can make things worse, emboldening the Islamicists convincing them that we are weak willed.

In my opinion, it is just a matter of time until Islamic fascists attack the U.S. possibly with atomic device(s) of some kind, resulting in significant loss of life greater than 9/11. If they had had such a capability they would have used it on 9/ll. I don't believe the danger is greater because of Iraq than it was on 9/11.

According to a recent poll by Investor's Business Daily, 66% of Americans say they believe a U.S. victory in Iraq is somewhat or very important. Even 53% of Democrats think so. 58% are somewhat or very hopeful that we will succeed. Not surprisingly, Republicans outweigh the Democrats in the hopeful department by almost 2 to 1. You won't hear in the MSM how many of the 19 Iraqi provences are already stable.

Phylo
Why did Sadr leave if not for fear? Is he not part of the continuing problem? Are we not teamed with Iraqis in a joint responsibilty mode - so that we can identify the true enemies of this state?
What would we do if this were happening in your home town? Would you stand by idly and allow your neighbors and interlopers to ruin your way of life?
What do you expect to happen when we pull out? Are you willing to accept responsibility for the consequences?
What could be wrong with having a true friend in this area of influence? At least 75% of the Iraqis do NOT want us to leave until order is restored.
How quickly do you think total chaos will reign if we leave now?
We have done part of the job. Would you like to see us leave and have all of that go for naught - for surely the vacuum will be filled by those less friendly to us - those betrayed by our leaving? How long do you think it will take for us to remove our equipment - our support logistical elements? And if we have to re-engage - how long would it take to put those elements back in place?
I want to hear Democrats predict the outcome of leaving in a huff! From this staging area proposed by the Democrats - I want to hear under what circumstances we would re-introduce forces into this area.
It is easy to criticize - harder to come up with workable ideas. Democrats have NO workable ideas!

It's not a war.
You can whine about Democrats all you want.

Lot of good that will do you.

Even with your whining it'll still cost you $3.65 to buy a venti mocha at Starbucks. This op-ed will prusuade no one on either side of this issue.

The problem isn't with Democrats, the primary problem is with Republicans.

1.) We won the "war". We toppled Saddam's government.

2.) After the war came the occupation.

In 1999 Bush said that he did not believe in nation building when running for president. I can think of a couple or reasons for him saying that. Primarily though because Republicans don't believe in nation building and he was trying to get elected.

Let's step back from that for a moment and evaluate.

What the hell are we doing in Iraq if not nation building?

You can't just walk into a country, over throw the government, and walk out.

That's what Bush wanted. Bush is all to unwilling to set a time table for troop withdrawl, but he sure did set a time table for voting for the new government.

I'm sorry but you can't build a Democracy in one year in a country that's never had it. The idea sounds stupid just saying it. Yet Bush had the first elections in one year.

Bush didn't believe in nation building. Probably still doesn't. But that is what we are doing in Iraq. And therein lies the rub.

Paul Bremmer is the definition of incompetent. Firing 500,000 soldiers in one day is as stupid as it gets. Firing 500,000 soldiers in the former Iraqi military and letting them take their firearms with them is sheer stupidity.

It is not a war. Republicans are trying to build an Iraqi nation, an Iraqi Democracy.

Well guess what. Republicans at there very core do not believe in nation building.

Republicans need to sit down, look in the mirror, and ask this question.

If we topple a government but don't believe in nation building, what comes next.

That is the problem in Iraq. Republicans need to face up to the fact Iraq is not an American war. Ten Iraqi's die for every American killed, Iraqi's are not at war with America.

The nation building is failing.



True
The obvious answer is to take a look at who the Enemy wants in power in the US? Cut and Run Democrats or the tough on terrorist Republicans. A lot of what they do in the way of terrorist activity are intended to sway the US public opinion like they did in Spain. Stay steadfast in our mission to eliminate those set on destruction of Americans worldwide.

Cowboy politics: Let's smoke 'em out!
FreeOpter: "We are there now and there's no point in debating how we got there or whether it was a bad decision at the start."

Yeah, let's NOT learn from history and doom ourselves to repeat it instead. Bravo.

et al: I don't remember any reports about Iraqi MDs threatening America before 9/11...but they SURE got important afterwards.

But, really, for me the cartoon on this website of Osama Bin Laden wearing a sash with "Obama 2008" says it all about the caliber of people associated in any way with right-wing politics in this country. Under- or simply non-education and a marked cultural unawareness is so blatantly obvious during discourse, and so pervades every corner of our psyche that we are well beyond ever solving our differences without first addressing the basic issues of what constitutes an able, qualified, and mature American.

Who the f**k cares if Obama's middle name is Hussien?? What sophomoric cultural shortcomings on the part of our "Fair & Balanaced" media could possibly dissuade a responsible voter from casting a vote in his favor because of a person's name?

America has become fat, indulgent, and apathetic, and it's time to grow up.

Jabelson
You are a pathetic POS.

Fact of Life
As a former registered republican voter, I cringed while watching the impeachment vote of william Jefferson Clinton when republican Senator Spectacle from Pennsylvania voted "not proven." I immediately turned off my TV and drove to the court house where I changed my registration to independant.
I will never vote for a democrat and will not vote for a republican if he/she has even a whiff of liberalism.
So much for all the left wing blather contained here.

Let Iran have Iraq
Who cares if oil spikes to $90/barrel, we drive too much anyway -Global Warming and all that

Who cares if Iran uses oil as leverage against Isreal in much the same way OPEC did in 1973. They're just Jews, right?

Who cares if China, Russia, Venezuela, and Iran control 90% of all oil reserves, we just need to break our addiction to foreign oil. If it costs us 20 million jobs, well those are red state jobs, who cares. Twenty million gun toting rednecks would surely vote for HRC in 2008 if they were unemployed

Who cares if food prices sky rocket -didn't the CDC say we are all too fat?

Who cares if Iran Findlandizes the Persian Gulf. It's time we were knocked down a notch or 2. I mean we got REAL problems here -we have yet to defeat Hate, Homophobia, Neoconism, and are borders are not open enough. Heck, why should we worry about the Persian Gulf when transgendered lesbian amputees are being discriminated against?

So, lets recall the troops, impeach the President, bannish the Vice President to the Seychilles, and get down to the real work of Hillary's 2009 Coronation.

Carbuncle
Yeah, Clinton deserved that--he is pure evil.

Bush, on the other hand, is pure virtue.

This is reflected in his involvement with stopping the Florida vote recount, his handling of pre-9/11 intelligence, his handling of pre-Iraq war WMD intelligence, his handling of administration appointees (including Rice's outright lies to the 9/11 commission, Cheney's outing of Valerie Plame, Rumsfeld's utter inability to manage the war, and Wolfowitz's planning of the war), and, finally, his inability as the leader of our country to recognize what the results of the 2006 elections really imply about his leadership and that of his party.

I'd rather elect an adulterer who grasps world politics and culture than an uneducated buffoon whose claim to the throne was in name only.

So you want to be president, eh? Then go get an education.

"Fool me once..." Dumbf**k.

Kimbat, Yomama, and other moonbats
I know being a liberal means waking up every day with absolutely no memory of what happened yesterday, but try to get your brain wrapped around these quotes.

Please pay special notice to the dates...sort of blows the sh*t out of your moonbat theories.

"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line." - President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998

"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program." - President Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998

"Iraq is a long way from [here], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face." - Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998

"He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983." - Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998

"[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the US Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs." - Letter to President Clinton, signed by Sense. Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, and others Oct. 9, 1998

"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process." - Rep. Nancy Pelisse (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998

"Hussein has chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies." - Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999



What's truth and logic got to do with it
Hanson as usual has the Democratic Leaders pretty much dead on. As soon as this war, like almost all wars will do, started getting difficult the Democrats bailed out. And they still keep saying "Bush Lied".

Yet that is not our countries greatest risk. The risk is that one of our two major political parties is using the public's general distaste for a foreign and necessary war strictly for partisan politics. The Democrats ran the mid-term campaigns promising to support the troops and led voters to believe that they would force a change in strategy so the USA would win. We now know exactly what they intended all along; regain power, retreat from Iraq and ignore our enemies overseas!

While how the Democrats operate is little surprise, many politicians run on platforms they find out once in office they cannot complete, the Democrats say anything to get elected and do what they please once in power. No, during this past election the Democrats ran with only one thing in mind retaking power. Power over the wealthiest, most powerful country in the world, in history. How they did it has degraded America and placed our freedoms at greater risk than even losing the war in Iraq.

Yet in this whole debate it is really amazing to see so many liberals and leftists following along like sheep to the slaughter. They repeat all the catch phrases handed to them by paid political operatives. They do little research on their own other than to check another leftist website. They accept as fact and truth what the Leftist operators tell them. All of this based on a simple but effective propaganda tactic that will soon be approaching a hundred years. Lenin said "A lie told often enough becomes the truth."

The hypocrisy of the Democrats and the Left is so blatant I find it difficult to understand how they can look at themselves in the mirror. Of course I continue to make the mistake of assuming that they know how to actually do unbiased research, that they know how to think and they can draw logical valid conclusions. Yet I find many believe that if their brains are whirring away that is formal thinking. It is not!

Jabelson
Your comments were unworthy of a response. If you really feel your job is to "tell me when to die" and to "leave my thinking to you...since you pay my mortgage" then you are beyond the point of rational discussion.

Take these words with you, "I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then question the manner in which I provide it. I prefer you said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand to post."

Col Nathan R. Jessup ("A Few Good Men")


Icedog, get a clue.
Diplomacy and negotiation are talents that this administration is woefully lacking. (Just refer to Condoskeeza's recent visit to Israel) I find it interesting how you take the words of others at face value and parse the words of your favorite conservatives. If you took your argument to it's logical conclusion, we should be saving people in Darfur, nuking Iran and we would be well on our way to energy independence.

The Republicans have been in charge, screwing things up for the past decade or so and you still try and lay the blame at Clinton's feet. You are retarded to think that Clinton started this war. If Bill were President, we would never be in Iraq, Afghanistan would be a peaceful budding democracy and we would have Osama's head on a platter. Instead we have a bush-league scumbag who has never been successful at anything he has tried. You of all people should hate this silver spooned bully for destroying everything that the Conservatives in America have been trying to build since the end of WWII. Instead, he has fooled you little by little into rejecting everything, and I mean everything, that conservatism stands for - minimum government intrusion into people's lives, fiscal responsibility, small government, etc.

If you have so much confidence in this war in Iraq then why not put it all on the table? Because every time something new is revealed about how and why we are there, it only shows the corruption and greed and outright incompetence of this administration and republican legislature. Protect the troops. Yeah, right.


Learning from history
It is not my nature to pick a fight, but I would ask our liberal visitors to at least read the column before ranting on, verbatim, from yesterday's rant. The columnist pointed out that historically the Democratic party has asked many times for Republicans to support them in overseas conflicts, many of which had few American interests at stake, but simply because "it was the right thing to do." Perhaps both parties will now be more wary of nation-building in the future, or perhaps the Democrats are only pooh-poohing the idea of building democracy in the middle-east and saving Iraqis from sectarian bloodshed because at this time a defeat for America seems to equate with a defeat for President Bush, therefore a victory for the Democratic Party. The proof of this will come, perhaps, when President Clinton, Jr. or President Obama asks Congress to authorize military intervention in Darfur or Somalia or Sri Lanka or Indonesia on humanitarian grounds. It is difficult to learn from history if you (we, all of us) are only sifting through the ashes for unspent ammunition to use in the current ideological firefight. As a case in point, are you sure you want to go with the current liberal buzz phrase "the worst foreign policy disaster in American history"? I'm surprised to see the post-Iraq liberal elevation of Vietnam to, at best, second place, but of course that was initiated by Presidents Kennedy and Johnson, Democrats, who wanted us to get involved in a foreign civil war to advance the cause of world-wide democracy. (Personally, I believe there was nobility in that mission, but most liberals – pre-President Bush liberals, anyway – have not agreed with me.) Finally, while it is against my nature to sling barbs, I must say that I agree wholeheartedly with Icedog's assessment of Jabelson's character, if Jabelson is not willing to retract the bile he posted earlier.

This will be a LONG war.
The Libs crying about being tricked by faulty intelligence should remember it came from Clinton's crippled Intelligence team.
http://www.bullwinkleblog.com/?page_id=3287

Regardless of the cause, AMERICA IS AT WAR!
This is a war for survival of AMERICAN Culture!
It is not a Republican war or a Democrat war it is an AMERICAN WAR!
Iraq is simply a battleground. The war will not end with Iraq regardless of the outcome in Iraq.
If we retreat from Iraq the enemy will just pick another battleground and keep killing AMERICANS.
Anyone who thinks collaborating with the enemy is a good political move should be advised that this war is just beginning for AMERICA and there is a strong likelyhood AMERICA will suffer painful casualties that will be blamed on those who collaborate and encourage the enemy to kill AMERICANS.
It is not without reason AMERICA'S enemies consider Democrats as Allies!
I have spoken with Democrats who are not pleased about that and are talking about starting a splinter "New Democrat Party".
I hope they do.

Good read VDH
Interesting read VDH…
I tend to see all this another way seeing as both parties corrupt politicos glom onto there constituents opposed philosophies of the redistribution entitlement collective vs. keep what you make individual initiative.
For decades the socialist left bore the torch of world activism but when the dormant, isolationist right began to formulate a new working activist philosophy during the 80’s, the real war began. Today we see the politico’s on the hill as actors/combatants vying for position in this war. It is in there nature to survive and be reelected; therefore, anything’s game for the win.
I am in no way surprised either side would point at the other and claim one war or another was righteous or unjustified. I mean hell, there’s a full blow, all out war of philosophies going on here.
And VDH is correct, the left is shooting itself in the foot big time playing the holier than though attitude. One thing people world wide can’t stand one bit is a hypocrite and this is exactly what the left is appearing pulling these stunts.

Yomama
"If Bill were President, we would never be in Iraq, Afghanistan would be a peaceful budding democracy and we would have Osama's head on a platter."

You're right, too bad Bill couldn't have a 3rd and 4th term as president. He could have ended world hunger, created a peaceful one-world utopia, made dogs love cats, and who knows, maybe we would have discovered even more orifices for a cigar.

Once a lunatic..........
Hey Kimberly - Ted Kennedy, Bill Clinton, Hillary Clinton, John Kerry and all the other left wing America haters have made speeches in the past about Sadam's weapons of mass destruction. They received the same intel the President did. England and Russia firmly believed the same intelligence. Nothing was cherry picked.

Intelligent people are fighting a war on terror against Islamofascists. You and your liberal friends are fighting a war against Republicans.

Pat
If Blair is pulling troops out because their job has succeeded, why doesn't he send them to Baghdad instead?

This has been a really lame attempt to make a pig look like a beauty queen.

Jabelson
If you really were in the military, good on you, however, the French military is very different than the American military....we actually expect our servicemembers to use their brain.

ATTENTION!
Now that I have your attention, one of TH's bloggers (not me) has an OUTSTANDING chronology of the Clinton-Islamofascist appeasement years. Well worth the read. His analysis of the moral turpitude that infected Bubba and his admin is d*mn good. Not to mention that his economic analysis are spot on and easy enough for a stupid liberal to understand.

http://polecon.townhall.com/

After you check it out, see mine for several other articles.

Icedog
On this we can agree (Bill Clinton). :-)

Icedog
Also, he would have colonized Mars and impregnated Venusian women in order to achieve goodwill and peace between our two worlds.

Shades of the sixties
everthing old is new again. or nothing new is found done under the sun, but back biting and lying are hidden in dark scary places. When exposed they hade, unless the lie id big enough the teller bold enough to stand and wear down the naye sayers.With each word uttered by the democratic party against this action taken against a nation and its leadership who openly offered reward for and to anyone who killed Americans or desroyed American property.

MyOpine
Funny, I don't remember reading anything about faulty intelligence or lack of armor, weaponry, manpower, etc, when Truman sent in Task Force Smith to stop the NK advance.

http://korea50.army.mil/history/factsheets/tfsmith.shtml

This came after Truman had slashed the military budget from 1945 to 1950.

"I can hear you"
"I can hear you, the rest of the world can hear you and the people who knocked these buildings down will be hearing from all of us soon." Words of President Bush at ground zero, WTC as he stood atop the mangled remains of a NYC Fire Dept. engine with his arm wrapped around the shoulder of a NYC fireman.

After a decade of acts of war against the United States by Radical Islam with only feckless response from Bill Clinton, the atrocity of 9/11 resulted.

President George W. Bush speaking, "Today our nation saw evil. A great nation has been moved to defend a great nation. Terrorists attacks can shake the foundations of our biggest buildings, shatter steel but they cannot touch the foundation of America or dent the steel of American resolve."

America has not been attacked at home since 9/11(watch your back). Our President/Commander-in-Chief, his team and military deserve credit and our thanks for that.

Now let's listen to Senator Lieberman(who gave an inspiring speech on the Senate floor) on the "non-binding resolution". The Senator, "This resolution is not about Congress taking responsibility. It is the opposite. It is a resolution of irresoultion. It is an accumaltion of amiguities and inconsistencies. It pledges its support to the troops in the field but also washes its hands of what they are doing. It will discourage our troops , hearten our enemies and showcase our disunity."

Listen to General Petraeus, "War is a battle of wills." General George Washington spoke often of "Perseverance and spirit" and of couse Churchill weighs in with. "In war, resolution."

How does the perfidious performances of the libdemos in Congress square with these statements? It does not. Watching such wretched performances one can only be reminded of the words of Thomas Paine in 1776. Gen. Washington and his army were "losing the war" having just been defeated in New York but regained the advantage by a courageous and brilliant attack at the Battle of Trenton.

Paine's words, "These are times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from .
the service of his country, but he that stands it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman
. Tyranny like hell is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict the more glorious the triumph."

Let's close with a tribute and thanks to the men and women of our armed forces. Heroic examples of courage and sacrifice, who every day man their battle stations around the globe, doing their dirty, dangerous missions protecting those hundreds of millions of all freedom loving people here and abroad. Paraphrasing Churchill's words, "Never is so much owed by so many to so few."

With such examples in front of us , leading us America will again become untied, will regain our perceverance, our spirit and prevail.


Use of Force Authorization:
If the Dems so believe that they were tricked by the "dunce" Bush , then why in the past 5 years havn't they introduced legislation to rescind the Use of Force Authorization? It is because they are cowards: everytime something they have been yapping about has come up for a vote, they turned tail and ran for cover. Anybody remember Charles Rangels'(D-NY) Draft bill, or the troop withdrawl bill. After months on complaining and finger pointing, these bills came up for a vote and both went down in flames. Even Rangel voted against his own draft bill and the only person to vote for it was Nancy Pelosi.

Kimbat
"....where wounded vets are treated like the forgotten Katrina victims."

Troops immediately deployed for Katrina support...17,000+

Federal funds spent on Katrina relief.....$122 billion — EIGHT times that for Hurricane Andrew!

Yet another "swing and a miss" for Kimbat...damn, even a broken watch is right twice a day....maybe one day you'll get one.

Icedog thank you
Whether meaning to or not, Icedog has shown how craven the republican party is. He thoughtfully reminds us how Clinton and company were shouting about how dangerous Iraq and Saddam were before 9-11. The do nothing republicans, more interested in public spectacle, poo pooed the notion as "wag the dog".

If we had all this information and all this encouragement for war from the Democratic President, why wouldn't the republican majority authorize war? Why did they sit on their hand until 9-11 and then blame Clinton?

Because it was much more important to find out about his sexual conduct.


Anybody who takes the WaPo
NYT or LAT seriously really has to get a mind. but anyway.
Yes we we were/are "hired Killers", in my day much less well educated than todays troops, and we should thank them every minute of every day we still can have this kind of forum. Some of the "moonbats should read Richard Clarke, one of them, to see how upset he was that GWB sort of sidetrackked him. He would have had us invade January 21st if he could have, of course now he also says its all GWB's fault.
Giv Iraq back to the people who really can govern it..the Kurds...but the Turks would have a fit...so what.

Icedog, Kimberly
Icedog,
Don't let those luny left-minded thinkers get you down. I will be happy to do some policing (like I do with monkey Kimberly.)
While she is busy telling you the past doesn't matter- I can't figure out why she keeps saying Bush lied, if it doesn't matter? Oops, wait, now she is going to come out and say troops are dying, they deserve to come home and quote more sh*t about some poll that says the majority of Americans don't want war, if quotes from the 90's don't matter, well, there are plenty from 2000-07 she conveniently leaves out to suit her purpose of spewing hate. I hate to post websites but today I will...have a good laugh.

http://www.freedomagenda.com/iraq/wmd_quotes.html

Kimberly- you are always blinded by hate and spewing it whenever you can, someday you might see the light, but I won't hold my breath.

Conservatives are SO PATHETIC
Its amusing to watch conservatives squirm and bloviate as they try to blame everyone but themselves for the Iraq War chaos.

Sorry but it won't wash. Voting on a single bill to authorize Bush to pursue options is not the same as approving everything the Bush administration did once they had that authorization. It is the President who is Commander In Chief, not the congress. Once Congress authorizes him to use force, it is his responsibility to use it correctly and effectively to obtain the strategic objectives for which he asked to use it.

Once the authorization is given Congress can give advice and ask questions but they do not run or approve individual military operations. That is the job of the military and its commander in chief. It is their responsibility, not Congress's to carry out that responsibility and when it goes badly they do not get to walk away from it and claim people outside the administration and military share the blame.

FACE IT conservatives. Bush HAS FAILED MISERABLY AS COMMANDER IN CHIEF in this war. You know you cannot argue with me. These things are true and self evident:

1) Bush and Rummy were the ones who did not send in enough troops to secure the country or its borders and let key bad guys escape with their treasure to build up the insurgency. They were the ones that then called everyone whether democrat (Biden) or republican (McCain) who suggested would happen and more troops were needed to stop it stupid or unpatriotic for not listening to them.

2) Bush and Rummy were the ones who laughed and snickered that "stuff happens" when the looting started instead of clamping down on it immediately to demonstrate we controlled the country and would make it secure.

3) When the bad guys saw we did not assert control over the country they started up the insurgency in earnest. Bush and Rummy (not the democrats) were the ones who denied it was happening instead of snuffing it out immediately when that was possible. This essentially gave further encouragement to the enemy.

4) Bush and Rummy were the ones who encouraged Bremer to disband the entire Iraqi army after they surrendered AGAINST the advice of our own military generals in the country. This sent thousands of armed and unemployed but trained soldiers into the waiting arms of the insurgency.

5) It was the administration, not the Democrats, who overruled the advice of our own military officers on how to handle the fiasco of the first battle of Fallujah showing the insurgents that they could use the stupidity of the administration to win what they could not win militarily.

I could go on and on but you diehard conservatives are so blind you cant see or understand the truth if it bit you on the nose.

You could have established a conservative dominance in this country that would have lasted another generation, but face it. BUSH BLEW IT.

Now the American people have seen through this incompetent administration. They want you to go to the back of the bus and let someone else drive. All your ideas and plans including those on economic and social issues are now in jeopardy due to the incompetence of the this administration on war and foreign policy issues.

The good news is there is less than two years before we replace this foolish and pitiable President and counting. The bad news is we have to wait that long before we have a shot at getting someone competent, whether Democrat or Republican, in the white house.

Hmmm
Can one of the liberal posters explain to me how GWB lied about intelligence and why the democrats, who had equal access to intelligence, bought the "lie" and voted for the war.

So you have either non-serious legislatures or idiots who can be decieved, even when they access to the same information.

..
*You know you cannot argue with me*

Yep, thats generally how you want to statr a debate.

Unless, of course, your true purpose was to take a big dump in this thread and then leave.

Kimbat
The whole foundation of all your comments, including your last one, is...."Bush lied".

The "smoking-gun" of your claim is the "Downing Street Memo", which liberals have tried to hold up like the Holy Grail. (Plame had as much to do with the war as Barney Frank)

All the lib excitement over the DSM was based on the word "fixed". Some Americans saw the word as in "fixing a fight", however even the ultra-liberal BBC reported, "Several well placed sources have told us that Sir Richard Dearlove was minuted as saying: 'The facts and the intelligence were being fixed round the policy by the Bush administration.' By 'fixed' the MI6 chief meant that the Americans were looking for evidence to reinforce their claim that Saddam was indeed a threat."

You can quote the DSM all you want. However, even to this very day, there is not one single piece of evidence that refutes the conclusions of the Butler Report (British), the Senate Select Intelligence Committee, or the 9/11 Commission, which all concluded that there was ZERO manipulation of intelligence.

Try again.

Yeah, right this was a bipartisan war
I find Hanson's bizarre distortions of history to be more aggravating precisely because he claims to be a historian rather than just a partisan right wing hack. Without the claim to be doing serious history, he would not stand out from the pack.

Why did so many democrats vote to authorize the iraq war? 1) To some degree they were craven. They did not support the war, but knew that the republicans would use the war as a club because until the war occurred (which is to say through the upcoming elections) Republicans could pretend that the war would be a cake walk. As it turns out even through 2004 the republicans were able to keep lipstick on the pig. It wasn't until 2006 that it became apparent to all but the true believers that it was in fact a pig.

2) Many believed that a president should have a lot of leeway in conducting foreign policy, at least until he proves himself incapable of it. Democrats who voted against the war did so largely because they thought Bush had already proven himself incompetent at conducting foreign policy. The democrats who voted for authorization were still giving him the benefit of the doubt. If Bill Clinton was still president more democrats would have voted for the authorization, but then Clinton would have used it to push for inspections, and we wouldn't have actually gone to war.

3) Some Democrats actually thought the war was a good idea. His name is Lieberman.

Yes democrats deserve to be pilloried to the degree that they were craven. There vote is more understandable to the degree that it was based on a belief about how foreign policy should be conducted. And I am glad that the number of democrats still giving Bush the benefit of the doubt now has fallen to basically Lieberman.

But when Hanson is reduced to writing articles trying to pin blame for Bush's war on democrats as well, it is pretty clear we are talking about a turkey of a war.

phxvet
I wonder who Velcro-Fly bubba asked when he shot those 1 million dollar apiece cruise missiles into an EMPTY aspirin factory in the Sudan that we later had to pay reparations for!

BTW libscum, how many times did Bubba miss OBL? I've heard three but with Ol Sticky Fingers Berger advising him (LOL!) it could be more. But then, we'll never know since andy "accidentally" destroyed that information...

phxvet
Great comment. Funny how libscum want to be generals but w/o the brains or the training needed to actually BE one.

I laugh when I read about LBJ running Vietnam from DC and the libscum thought he was doing such a great job. 50,000 DEAD GI's later, he whines a mea culpa and doesn't run for reelection. Idiots.

loyalizer writes
"I'd rather elect an adulterer who grasps world politics and culture than an uneducated buffoon whose claim to the throne was in name only."

"So here we are, embroiled in a 4-year war that was sold to us with mostly fabricated information, with an enemy that now has every justification to fight back, a global community that has lost all respect for us and our way of life, and with our country at odds with itself more than ever. This is not the America I've read about."

Interesting how an uneducated buffoon could so easily mislead all them smart Democrats! Says a lot doesn't it? Tells me that I don't want them leading the country because the rest of the world's leaders should have no trouble pulling the wool over their eyes, if Dubya could do it!

Also interesting how much of the intelligence existed long before GWB moved into the white house. Not to mention all the posturing by the Democrats with their statements regarding Saddam's WMD's. See Icedog's post above and the links provided by RNMedic. I guess all these people are uneducated buffoons too, and it is most certain they were lying because they were saying the same things GWB said, only several years prior.

Facts are stubborn things. So if you people want to support marginally intelligent and dishonest leaders, well it doesn't say much for your IQ either, now does it?

Oh yea, Jabelson, go f^ck yourself! As a former soldier boy myself I have more patiotism in my little finger than you will ever possess. You, Sonnyboy" are part of the problem in this country. And by the way! We take orders from real leaders, not some angry sniveling civilian coward like yourself! I'll bet your mom made you play with Barbies didn't she?

Don C
Sgt, USMC
1971-1975

jabelson
how in the world can people use the exploitation and suffering of the people of iraq and here in afghanistan for political gain? is your hatred of Bush really that much stronger than your compassion for your fellow human beings?
just remember, if you had been born in saddam's iraq, you and your family would have been executed long ago.
if you had been born in afghanistan, you would have no electricity, no running water, no hope.
they don't have much, but at least now they have hope for the future, which is a lot more than they had 5 years ago.
the violence won't last forever.
will your hatred last forever?

Bleeding Heart Liberals
You're the second moonbat who has said Republicans claimed Democrats were "waging the dog" about Saddam in the 1990s.

Can you give me some quotes or facts please?

If you are talking about Clinton's "Operation Distraction" (a one-day tent/aspirin bombing campaign) during his impeachment...try again...separate issue.

Don
LOL!

Nice GUT PUNCH! You still got it leatherneck! haha.

DISINGENUOUS...........?
VIC,

HOW POLITE A WORD, DISINGENUOUS, TO USE TO DESCRIBE THE BLANTANT OUTRIGHT LIES THAT ROLL OF THE TONGUES OF THE DIMICRITICAL JACKASS PARTY FOLK. YOU SIR, ARE MUCH TO KIND BUT THEN TO EMPLOY THEIR TACTICS WOULD BE TO STOOP. IS THAT YOUR THOUGHT?

I ALWAYS FOUND THAT FRANK CONRONTATION OF A LYING FOOL HAS DONE WONDERS AT KEEPING THEM IN CHECK. TO MANY OF OUR REPUBLICAN RINOS, LIBS AND FENCE WALKERS COULD USE A SOUND THRASHING FOR NOT ADHERING TO THE PARTY PLATFORM AND SHOWING LITTLE OR NO CHARACTER. A CHANGE OF ATTITUDE AND SOME GUTS WOULD HELP THIS PARTY A LOT.

Phxvet, No.
You ask:

QUESTION:
Once the authorization is given Congress can give advice and ask questions but they do not run or approve individual military operations. Oh really? Isn't that precisely what Murtha and company are working on as we speak?

ANSWER:
NO, NO NO. You still don't get it. Amazing.

The fact is that Congress can cut off funding for the war or refuse to authorize additional troops. But these are broad "meat cleaver" type operations. If they do this or rescind the authorization, it will indeed cripple the administration's ability to continue their current war strategy. But that is VERY DIFFERENT than operating in the role of commander in chief and making tactical and strategic operational decisions such as those I listed in my post.

And everyone, INCLUDING ME MOST OTHER LIBERALS, knows that Congress is not the commander in chief and the executive branch cannot and SHOULD not abdicate that role. After all, when Hilliary, Barack or my personal favorite but VERY long shot, Joe Biden is president we wouldn't want them to be micromanaged by Bush diehards in Congress!!!

Kimberly - Desert Fox
1998-1999.

I was there.

Kosovo on the 'perceived' ethnic cleansing that was going on - turns out we were wrong about that too...

Who was CinC then?

Just to clarify
high altitude air strikes (bombings) ARE acts of War...

JP
Excellent post!