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Thursday, December 14, 2006
Victor Davis Hanson :: Townhall.com Columnist
Talking to Iran a mistake for strategic, moral reasons
by Victor Davis Hanson
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One of the many bizarre recommendations in the recently released report from the bipartisan Iraq Study Group is the call to talk with Iran. A formal dialogue with the present Iranian leadership is, for a number of reasons, as misguided as it is amoral.

Our guides in these scary times of facing aggressive dictatorships still should be Winston Churchill and Franklin Roosevelt, not the British prime minister Stanley Baldwin and Joe Kennedy, the U.S. ambassador to Britain, who leading up to 1939 thought good could come out of talking with the Nazis.

First, the Iranian leadership goes beyond the usual boilerplate anti-Israel, anti-Semitic claptrap of the region. President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has serially denied the Holocaust while promising the absolute destruction of Israel. Various mullahs have characterized Israel as a “one-bomb state,” implying a single Iranian nuclear bomb could destroy it. The vicious hatred is so institutionalized in Iran’s state-run media that a science-fiction TV series there depicts the evil alien queen as Jewish.

Why should we give stature to and empower a theocracy that apes the hatred of the Third Reich?

Second, in matters of nuclear proliferation, Iran demands increased vigilance, not dialogue. It possesses enough oil-based energy to meet its domestic needs for over 200 years and thus has no logical reason — other than for weaponry — to develop exorbitantly costly enriched uranium.

Plus, unlike similarly unstable Pakistan and North Korea, Iran has no nearby nuclear neighbors to keep it in check. Iran could rather easily threaten stability in the region — and thus the accessibility of most of the world’s oil reserves.

Third, there is a long history of failed talks with, and appeasement of, the present Iranian government. The so-called EU3 — Britain, France and Germany — “dialogued” constantly and offered concessions while Tehran raced ahead with more centrifuges. The loquacious United Nations experienced the same frustration.

Remember the Iran-Contra scandal of 1986 — a mess that sullied the reputations of some of those now calling for renewed negotiations with Iran. In 1983, Iranian-backed Hezbollah kidnapped Americans in Lebanon. Some in the Reagan administration thought Iran could help free the hostages if we sold it arms. But all they proved was the old dictum that democracies should not eagerly beseech dictatorships from a position of perceived weakness.

Fourth, we have a deep misunderstanding of the nature and aims of the Iranian regime. Despite praise from Bill Clinton, Iran’s “liberal” plebiscites were never democratic. Candidates were always carefully prescreened, free expression was curtailed, and dissident voices were jailed (and worse). Before 9/11, Hezbollah, with Iran’s help, had killed more Americans than any other terrorist organization. No wonder President Ahmadinejad now asks crowds to envision “a world without America.”

The Iraqi Study Group says Iran also worries about spillover chaos in Iraq. That is laughable. The opposite is true. The present killing and violence in Iraq divert American attention away from its effort to go nuclear and its interests in Lebanon. As Yahya Rahim Safavi, the commander of the Iranian Revolutionary Guards Corps, gleefully put it, “The Americans are sunk in the quagmire of Afghanistan and Iraq, and there is no way for them (to move either) forward or backward.” So, if Iran finds benefits in an unstable Iraq, why would it wish to play a constructive role?

Instead of worrying about negotiating with Iran, we need to be primarily preparing for the awful day when Iran can arm its missiles with nuclear weapons. President Bush should keep pressing for tough U.N.-endorsed global trade sanctions against Iran for violating the United Nations’ own resolutions. And instead of talking to murderous mullahs, we should reach out more to Iranian democratic dissidents.

Ultimately, though, only collapsing the world oil price to below $30 a barrel can stop Iran’s ability to fund terrorists, buy costly weapons and develop its nuclear program. We can achieve that through increased domestic drilling, energy conservation and an embrace of alternative energy.

In the short term, America must stay focused on rethinking its tactics to stabilize Iraq. Iraqi democracy as well as consensual governments in surrounding Afghanistan and nearby Lebanon are Tehran’s worst nightmares — because these are true revolutionary movements that might resonate with Iran’s own unhappy youth.

To deal with Iran, America should smile, lower the rhetoric, keep our powder dry — and maintain our distance.

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About The Author
Victor Davis Hanson is a classicist and historian at the Hoover Institution, Stanford University, and a recipient of the 2007 National Humanities Medal.

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Mr. Hanson
You need to talk to the President. He needs good advice like yours, not the ISG.

Rename the War on Terror

One comment, collapsing the price of oil below 30 dollars per barrel would require dictating to China where it would purchase its energy. Good thought but tacticaly weak.

The war will not be finished by election time 2008. At that time it may be more intense than it is today or it may be winding down but it will not be over, finished, complete.

Bush should plan a war strategy that can be handed to the next elected President, regardless party affiliation. A compelling policy they cannot ignore.

Bush has done a very poor job on War PR. Given today's MSM I'm not sure how war PR should be done, but it needs to be better. Bush has also underestimated the requirements for a successful end game; however, Bush does understand the problem and the need to integrate Islam into the world community.

One key success we can report at this time is a full blown world debate is underway on Islam and intellectual moderate Muslims now know they must find a way to live in the world with other cultures and they must find the leadership to guide their religion to that end.

A premature exit from Iraq by the US will allow the radical elements of Islam to immediately dominate that debate. The US must fight on until the debate turns in favor of the moderate Islamist.

The name of this conflict should be the War for Moderate Islam or if the public demands a negative connotation, the War on Radical Islam.

Victor Davis Hanson: Like No Other
A few years ago, my older son, now a Lieutenant (with Ranger tab) serving in Iraq, gave me for Christmas a book of essays by Victor Davis Hanson entitled "An Autumn of War." When I read it, I realized what an outstanding and insightful historian and analyst was (and is) Victor Davis Hanson. I went out, bought and read his other books, including "The Soul of Battle," "The Ripples of Battle," "Carnage and Culture," "The Wars of the the Ancient Greeks," and "From Afghanistan To Iraq," and I bought and read when it came out "A War Like No Other." I now read every column he writes as it comes out. This one, on the insanity of negotiating with Iran, is on par with the other superb analyses he has done.

Reality check
We already have a back channel to Iran.

And we have for years.

Iran was a key ally in the Afghan War and the opening phase of the Iraq War.

In fact, GW Bush just met with Iran's chief ally in Iraq last week.

Reality check II
But if you folks want to delude yourselves with quotes from the Battle of the Bulge, that is undoubtedly precisely what you will do.

Bill Is The One Needing A Reality Check
Bill is the one needing a reality check.

George Bush met last week with an Iraqi Shiite in Iraq about Iraq; so what? That is not a back channel to Iran, and that is not at all the same as having talks with the theocratic regime of Iran and seeking accommodations with Iran.

And where in Victor Davis Hanson's article here does he refer to the Battle of the Bulge? He does refer to how we should have in mind the examples of Winston Churchill and FDR, who were clear minded in their assessments and actions with respect to the Nazi menace, as opposed to Stnaley Baldwin and Joe Kennedy, who wished to talk with and accommodate the Nazis; that is good advice for us to keep in mind when dealing with an Iranian regime aping the Nazis.

Phil
I'm with you! VDH is absolutely on the money all the time. I have read several of his books,also.
There is no talking with the leader of Iran- that's for sure.
I personally think we should forget being politically correct and take them out. And who would lead the way...
Rangers lead the way! hoo-ah!
I will add your son's name to my magnetic yellow ribbons...even if I don't know you personally, I know of you and I don't let the opportunity pass to show my kids what it means for us that other people make the sacrifice so that we can do what we do every day. May he stay safe wherever he is...Freedom isn't free.

eBay in Iraq .. vs .. Al Qaida in Iraq!
While we Americans are doing the right thing - almost reflexively - by fighting the Global War against Islamic Terrorists, we too are hamstrung by our own fascination with collectivism. Whether it is preached by the current crop of near-socialist-Democrats -- or by faith-based-Republicans, we seem incapable of articulating (and therefore exporting) the basis for our own successes. How can a believer of one faith-based system claim that there is anything wrong with another faith-based system? The fact that the other faith-based system condones or even encourages the killing of non-believers, just makes its practitioners more consistent (albeit extreme) in their faith!

Instead of prattling about 'spreading Democracy', which conveniently ignores the fact that Democracy is only an instrument, we should be talking about what America, a Democracy, has created:

* Capitalism
* Individual liberty
* Freedom of Religion
* Freedom FROM religion

We should be able to export those ideas consistently, without compromise, and without the evasion that usually passes for intellectual discourse today.

As a start, we can export our Constitution to Iraq and anyone else who is smart enough to want it. If we must offer assistance to other countries, it should be AFTER they adopt a capitalist model that is based on individual freedom. Just as Venture Capitalists extract the best Return on Investment in any given marketplace, American capital must be provided with caveats and covenants.

It works in our capital markets -- and will also work in our Foreign policy.

Imagine this: a well guarded Fort Knox-style Bank in downtown Baghdad (and other major Iraqi cities), built around oil revenue credits and voluntary (not tax coerced) funds by American citizens, Iraqis and anyone else who wants to invest in the Iraqi experiment. The Bank lends money at market-determined rates to Iraqis (and others) that have credible business plans and decent credit. Borrowers lacking credit histories would begin with 'micro' loans and establish themselves gradually, monitored eBay-style, via feedback from previous transactions! People with criminal records - or those who violate laws, are automatically 'dinged' on their credit scores!

Yes, it is the eBay model!

In addition to such a private bank, it would be necessary to have a Government that provides law-and-order, defense & the protection of property rights (but not much else). Yes, this is easier said than done - but it is an improving capitalist economy that provides the 'carrots', while the Govt (as the sole initiator of force) provides the 'sticks' for those who do not comply.

To be sure there will be some circumstances that may seem anomalous to Westerners, e.g. Militias transformed into private security forces, funded by insurance companies! However, market forces will determine their success or failure.

The idea is to infuse a capitalist mentality into a region that has not benefited from such practices as saving money, investment capital, free trade, etc. Shiites, Sunnis and Kurds who are trading goods and services with each other are not as likely to shoot at each other, when they are too busy working hard and getting ahead.

People who are investing for their own future are more likely to step up and oppose the violent few who create problems. If an increase in violence causes risk-averse investors to change their investment terms, the Iraqi beneficiaries of such investments would take to the streets and unite against the violence.

Iraqis who wake up in the morning and scan their newspapers to see that sectarian violence has made their interest rates go up (and their micro-businesses less profitable as a result) will eventually band together against the violent minority.

Discussion with Iran
The only discussion we should have with Iran is about a two minute exchange. "Do you want to keep your landscape as it is or have it turned into glass?"

impact
The discussion you propose should take place below decks on a Trident missile submarine and go like this "Kim Jung Il, this tube that I have my hand on & Mahmoud, the two across from it have enough destructive power to reduce both of the little pieces of sh*t you call countries to radioactive rubble before either of you knew anything was coming. If you look down the passageway, you will see that there are 7 more missles on this ship for each I've told you about and we have more ships just like this one. Now, you;ve gotta ask yourself a question, "Do I feel lucky?", well do ya punk?

Impact
I love it! Of course Iran knows that our leaders lack the political will to ever do so. The reality is that it is impossible to nuke Iran and expect peace to follow. Perhaps we offer to not nuke Medinah if all Islamic terrorism stops. If it doesn't, we take out Medinah, to be followed by Mecca if they then do not comply. Of course we can expect to lose Rome, Jerusalem, DC, New York and Chicago and probably London. When we are willing to plunge the world into total chaos, as they are, that is the only time that they will be willing to believe our threats.

CVN65
EXACTLY! That is the only way to deal with death-worshipping Muslim fanatics. Take away their options and make them face the prospect of getting turned into a crispy-critter. Teddy Roosevelt is proved right again.

"Speak softly and carry a big stick!"

Embarassment
Florida's utter embarassment of a senator, Bill Nelson, meets with terrorist support Assad, over objections of the president and proclaims there's "hope" in negotiations with Syria. And of course, the headline in the left leaning Tampa tribune is "Nelson sees hope in Syria talks" then "Nelson criticzed by Bush". Like "hope" when it comes to Syria means anything. And I note that Assad refused to talk about Lebanon.

What happened to "we don't negotiate with terrorists".

Warn Iran
"To deal with Iran, America should smile, lower the rhetoric, keep our powder dry — and maintain our distance."

I agree with this, but through back channels we should warn Iran that further support for violence in either Iraq or Lebanon and the USAF will be released upon their ports, suspected nuclear facilities, training camps, military bases, and oil facilities.

I know what people will say, "gas prices will sky-rocket". So be it.

http://www.cafemil.com

One correction
"Plus, unlike similarly unstable Pakistan and North Korea, Iran has no nearby nuclear neighbors to keep it in check."

Last-I-checked, Pakistan IS one of Iran's neighbours and IS nuclear (though whether it would keep Iran in check is a different matter--as AQ Khan was the one that sold Iran a lot of the nuclear tech in the first place).

Article was excellent except for the above mistake.

VDH...Great article!
This is as insightful an article on this issue that I have read. It is utter sphisrty for the ISG to pretend that talking to Syria and Iran is going to be in any way helpful. They are our avowed enemies and any overtures towards them are only going to be seen as weakness and an invitation to press us into a corner. We cannot allow these tyrants to believe that they are of any use to us; that will only embolden them and further endanger us.

Dislodging itself from truth
since Islams inception 700 A.D. Ahmadinejad is continuing to lead the way by this principle. Historically and Theologically.

"How can two walk together unless they agree."

What would be the meeting point? What point of truth?


Fear
This article and subsequent comments reinforces my conclusion that conservatives are very frightened people the result of which is irrationality and knee jerk reactions. If it weren't for greed I suspect most would stay under the covers all day.

VDH
should stick to History. 'Amoral to talk to Iran? Come on Victor, this is geopolitics not the church social.
"Plus, unlike similarly unstable Pakistan and North Korea, Iran has no nearby nuclear neighbors to keep it in check."

He obviously forgot about Israel, which would provide the same balance that existed between the U.S. and the Soviet Union.

China holds the only hammer
The US foreign policy is a joke. China has a 100 billion dollar oil deal with Iran and is in the process of starting another. We fund those deals every time we buy something from China. Tough position to negotiate from.

You can only negotiate from strength and all we have left is a big gun we do not know how or are afraid to use. We are afraid to use our air force on Iraq, let alone anything bigger on Iran.

Maybe Bush won't sit with Iran or Syria because he knows that he is not a player anymore and has successfully hobbled the US economic leverage in the world by using China as our banker. Naw. He doesn't get it. Thats what China is telling Paulson as well. And they are right.

Careerism + elitism = Disaster
Has anyone heard the term, "You are too smart for your own good?" That seems to be the problem that existed 1939 and into the present day.

People like James Baker spend their whole lives in the realm of government. Their thought processes are like, "The solution to the Iraq War is much more deep and involved and is beyond the mental capacity of mortal men."

I guess in a nutshell one could say that James Baker is so full of himself even he is believing his own blather. It is no secret that James Baker doesn't like Israel. His college thesis was nothing more than a rant criticizing President Harry Truman for recognizing the state of Israel.

James Baker didn't produce the report from the Iraq Study Group to find solutions to the war, all that Mr. Baker used this group for is to attain his fifteen minutes of fame of his anti-Israel feelings. Solutions for the good of the American people were merely secondary in Mr. Bakers development of his report or may be it wasn't there at all.

This seems to be a doom days device that is inherent in all high ranking government or former government officials. They are no longer public servants, but rather the public serves them to adulate, worship, and bow before their self-perceived greatness. In a sense they develop themselves into living gods.

Meanwhile while our soldiers and Marines are fighting pitched battles with the enemy, James Baker and those like him walk around with white robes of political purity and adorn themselves with crowns of gold leaf to signify their status as the ultimate authorities of endless debate to achieve a consensus with their fellow political gods.

All the while these self-absorbed buffoons haven't the slightest idea of what there were set out to accomplish because the have debated this dead horse to the point that even they forgotten what the end result was to achieve.

As it was in 1939 and as it is in 2006 needless lives have to be lost in this current struggle as these career bureaucrats look for their unattainable consensus into oblivion.





Victor Davis Hanson
wrote, " if Iran finds benefits in an unstable Iraq, why would it wish to play a constructive role? "

Precisely! Adam Smith's Doctrine of Self Interest is the rule here. (And before Phylo or one of the DailyKos posters flames me about Smith being an economist, I'd remind all that it was, back in Smith's day, called "Political Economics")

Hanson also reminds us that Ahmadinejad and Safavi WANT the USA bogged down in a chaotic Iraq. They recognize that we could turn Iran into a smoking pile of rubble if we so desired, so their best defenses are the strategies of misdirection and obfuscation, aided and abetted by the likes of Baker and his dinos.

It isn't lost on Iran that the USA failed in Vietnam because of the vocal leftist's anti-Americanism here at home, not because of US military ineptness overseas.

Baker might as well be getting a stipend from the Iranian government. (Anyone know how much he got from us American taxpayers?)



Dialogue Immoral?
I don't think dialogue with a foreign power is ever immoral. Whether or not they're all that crazy, you may learn something about them that helps you to deal with them, and perhaps you manage to teach them something useful as well. Now, if you actually allow yourself to be taken in by false promises, that might be immoral, or at least stupid; there may be room, though, to take calculated risks toward friendship if you're also willing to cut your losses if that friendship seems to have been betrayed. Or you may decide that the dialogue was simply an opportunity to get to know your enemy.

I understand that Ahmadinejad is considered "outrageous", and I don't necessarily disagree with that characterization. And yet, despite some of his more radical views, he strikes me as someone who might listen to reason if it is addressed to him in a spirit of respectful debate rather than condemnations. He certainly strikes me as being more nuanced than, say, Ayatollah Khomeini was. I could be wrong about this; but it seems to me that we would be closer to knowing for sure if someone actually sat down in the same room with Ahmadinejad.

Opening a dialogue is not the same thing as caving in to demands nor letting down our guard as soon as someone smiles and pats us on the back. We do have to beware of the Neville Chamberlain syndrome -- he will always be remembered for pacifying Hitler -- but we also can't just assume right off the bat that everyone who makes us angry IS Hitler or can't be reasoned with.

Another AIPAC Puppet
Don't talk, just bomb then. Don't mediate the Arab Israeli conflict, just arm fatah.

When are you sheep going to wake up. AIPAC runs our foreign policy. Whether your representatives or senators are Republican or Democrat, they are all Likud. And you sheep just fall in line, receive your talking points, defend a war that we were lied into, just because you want to beat the Democrats.

I am a former Republican. Many of us Ex-Republicans are just amazed at the lack of Conservatism and just basic common sense in the Republican party. During the Clinton Administration we used to harange bubba for using talking points that were washed in focus groups, we all knew he was full of sh!t. Now Bush is doing the same thing and all of you lap it up. I just pray that some day you will have at least one independant thought.

Iran, Syria, and Venezuala pose no threat to us. Why is it that only oil producing nations have a problem with us?

Talking to Iran
An additional pressure point MIGHT be the UN: if Bush were to say publicly that U.S. policy will henceforth be "if nuclear weapons are used anywhere in the world, the US will consider it a failure of the UN's peacekeeping effort, and, following closely on UN failures in Africa and other parts of the world, will begin a complete review of the UN's effectiveness. As part of that review, the US will henceforth suspend ALL financial contributions, will reconsider its membership in the UN, and will actively seek other locations for the UN headquarters. We need to start putting the word out now, so if it happens no one can accuse us of not making it clear that we are finally going to hold the UN responsible for itself. F

Voice of reason states:
Instead of prattling about 'spreading Democracy', which conveniently ignores the fact that Democracy is only an instrument, we should be talking about what America, a Democracy, has created:

* Capitalism
* Individual liberty
* Freedom of Religion
* Freedom FROM religion
----------------------------------------------------

I find it discouraging when recent events seem to indicate that many of the folks steeped in centuries of tribal warfare and oppressive theocratic religious extremism don't appear to want at least two of the items on your list (three to possibly all four in my opinion) much less fight for them. To the contrary, they appear to be abjectly rejecting them, with zeal!

Do you see something different from what I see?


Collapsing the oil market
Mr. Hanson hits the nail on the head. We have to drive down the price of oil. But our so-called representatives in Washington will have nothing to do with it. It's been in our strategic interest to become energy independent since the Iranians stormed our embassy, but neither party gets it done.

We fund the terrorists. We fund the Chinese and the Russians who are waging a new Cold War of Terror against us. We fund the Taliban, Mexican drug cartels, and U.S. drug gangs through the war on drugs. We have the power to disarm all our enemies by changing policies to stop funding them.

Our representatives in Washington refuse. They continue to fund our enemies and use them as boogie-men to stay in power. Once again, we have nobody to blame but ourselves for continuing to vote for these horrible, anti-American representatives.

http://freedomistheanswer.blogspot.com/

Nonsense
All of this back/forth with Iran is useless. We need not stand on any moral ground with them, we need only stand on the democracy for which our nation was founded. We do not suffer those who wish to bring harm to our nation in any way, shape or form.

We care nothing of their religion as it has no bearing on any subject of matter, believe as they wish - holucaust, no holocaust, it matters little in only that it reveals who they are and what they are about. "Thank you ahmadinajihad for your revelations". Now we attack.

If we attempt to stand on some moral ground we will invariably fall. Morals are based on a religious dogam for which we should not care one bit. Each individual has his/her right to believe as they wish, they don't have the right to impose it.

This very same declaration is germane to Islam, enjoy your religion as distorted as we may think it is, but we create socially civil societies which do not impose anyone's religious dogma upon others, to rule by, to enact laws by or to kill by if one does not subjugate to the religion.

Throw out this moral argument for it is irrelevant. We only care that Iran reveals itself for what/who it is and that we act appropriately to ward off their destruction of our nation.

Easy. Simple. Done!


George W.....
Liar. You were never republican, or you wouldn't have used the tired lefty meme about "lied us into war". Conservative republicans still have their testicles intact, unlike you.
As the kicker, conservative republicans understand that Iran, Iraq and Syria have been a threat to us for several decades.
If anyone is licking anything, it's the Kosconauts on the left.
A brave man isn't afraid to be afraid, a stupid man is never afraid.

Ray...Turn on "Iraqi TV"
Has anyone seen the cable television show "Iraqi TV"?
I kid you not...
Turns out that with Saddam out of power Iraqis don't have to watch him on TV 24/7 so they are producing their own shows!
They even have a version of "American Idol"...main difference is the competitors are 95% male!
My point is I agree with voice of reason's "ebay in Iraq" business model. (Glad you haven't wasted that Stanford economics degree VOR).
I think the Iraqi's are ready for capitalism, liberty, and FREEDOM.
Today Iraq, tomorrow Iran.

Cal Bear
Comcast? Which channel?

Cal Bear
Found it...later dudes...

let them speak for themselves
http://www.memri.org

Special Dispatch #1387, December 12, 2006

'Editor of Arabic Reformist Arabic Website AAFAQ Criticizes Recommendations of the Iraq Study Group'

Q: If they don't like it (The ISG report) there why should we like it here?

A: Because they are hoping/praying that we don't have the cojones to ride it out. And judging from our recent history they might be right.

Talking to anyone
We talked to the Soviet Union and they had the means to obliterate us as well as a philosophy opposed to our way of life. Talking to your enemy is a way of trying to avoid misunderstandings or miscalculations that could lead to a confrontation, so it is a good idea no matter how you detest their government. Nixon broke the ice with China and the results have been that we are now on better terms with them and are unlikely to be attacked by them. Talking might not lead to agreements but trying is worth the effort. Talking to your enemy does not mean you condone what they do.

To the brave man Mr Airgun
"George W.....
Liar. You were never republican, or you wouldn't have used the tired lefty meme about "lied us into war". Conservative republicans still have their testicles intact, unlike you.
As the kicker, conservative republicans understand that Iran, Iraq and Syria have been a threat to us for several decades.
If anyone is licking anything, it's the Kosconauts on the left.
A brave man isn't afraid to be afraid, a stupid man is never afraid."

You may still possess your testicles, I will take you at your word, but unfortunately you have lost possession of your brain.

Iran, Iraq, and Syria have been threats for decades? Iraq was a threat when we were arming them against Iran in the 80s? Iran was a threat when we were arming them against Iraq in the 80s? Why did we give them arms then? Why did Rummy shake Saddam's hand then? Was Syria a threat when they supported Gulf War I? These don't sound like AMERICAN threats.

Bush did lie us into war. At first I didn't believe it, but after we found out that Saddam was not mobilizing against us, that he couldn't attack us in 45 minutes, that curveball was a relative of on of Chalabi's aides, the downing street memo which shows that war was decided well before the whole "diplomatic" charade was finished, and so on, a rational person cannot come to any other conclusion. Anyone who believes otherwise is rather ignorant, so go with your gut, it makes you feel better than consulting the facts, because then you will have to admit that you were wrong.

And after all the BS they fed to us, you still believe them. That makes you brave? No, that makes you ignorant.

So continue to live in your own reality where Bush has a 100% approval rating and criticize me and tell me I am not a conservative because I refuse to support a President that spends like a drunken sailor, increases government handouts, lets illegals come in droves, calls the minutemen vigalantes, suggests people against illegal immigration are racists, failed to condemn the Kelo decision, failed to publicly repeal the assault weapons ban, increased federal intervention into public education, increased federal law enforcement jurisdiction to levels that make Janet Reno and Lon Horiuchi salivate, tried to push Harriet Miers on us, and wishes to void the 4th Amendment of the United States Constitution, using a frail argument that is the definition of loose constructionism. So yes you sure are conservative to the core, I must be some crazy liberal. Idiot.

MEMRI is a mouthpiece for Israel
MEMRI was founded in 1998 by its president Yigal Carmon, a retired colonel from Israeli military intelligence, and the academic Dr. Meyrav Wurmser.

ProfGene you hit the nail on the head
You said:

"Talking to your enemy is a way of trying to avoid misunderstandings or miscalculations that could lead to a confrontation, so it is a good idea no matter how you detest their government."

Yes that is if you want to avoid an unecessary confrontation. That is not what the Administration wants to do.

Prof Gene and Mr. Bush
Talking to your enemies is about the most intellectually dishonest piece of drivel thus far I've read only today.

As a nation, we have put forth our intentions within this fight on terror. Now, the only thing for other nations to decide is if they agree or disagree.

If they agree, we are on the same page to an extent and can begin any discussion that may be appropriate.

If they disagree, we have nothing to discuss and must take responsibility for ourselves and those that oppose terrorism.

Your view of the world is more about the world "acting on us" than "us acting on the world". This is inherently dangerous as you place yourself in a subjective position by which subjugation by any nation or religion is possible. It is grossly irresponsible.

Since our nation is founded on a democracy which supports freedom of many aspects of life, to include religion, while we may foundationally respect anyone's right to their religion, we do not subjugate our nation to its dogma.

Bush
"MEMRI is a mouthpiece for Israel"

Shouldn't you question how it could be a mouthpiece for Israel merely by translating the words of prominent muslims spoken in their own countries and languages? Do you not wonder, if reality itself is a mouthpiece for Israel, that maybe Israel has a point?

"MEMRI was founded in 1998 by its president Yigal Carmon, a retired colonel from Israeli military intelligence, and the academic Dr. Meyrav Wurmser."

So? What typical liberal nonsense - attack the messenger, rather than the message. But the only thing MEMRI puts out is the words of the Muslim world, and it's a leftist crime against humanity to ever attack THEIR message. So, you're stuck with flawed ad hominem - imperfect, because the messenger in this case is not the translator, whom you lamely attack, but the clerics, politicians, and pundits of the Muslim world.

tHERE IS NO LOGIC,
in talking with either iran or syria. They are military problems, enough said!

11h

have we learned nothing
have we learned nothing from ww2 if we knew what hitler was going to do would we wait for it to happen to us before trying to stop him,this kook in iran has said he wants to wipe israel off the map and they are brainwashing kids to hate everyone thats not like them, into believing that if your not like them your an infedel and there for must DIE,well when there done sending a nuke to israel guess whos next,iran is the country most responsible for the troubles in the mideast and even surrounding countries leaders say that, something has to be done to stop this madness from spreading,i hate to see innocent citizens of iran get caught in the crossfire though, because of some 15th century fundamentalists running there country and preaching hate and death to all.

a coalition of the chillin'
Agreed. Let's lower the price of oil. But isn't there a pratical problem here? How many years, how many trillions of dollars of research, devellopment, infrastructure construction will it take before we can be free of foreign oil and natural gas? We should have started on that 30 years ago. Now events are moving too fast.

If we're to talk to anybody it should be to all the energy-hungry nations, convincing them of the insanity and injustice of letting half a dozen whack regimes to hold the rest of the world hostage. A coalition of the chillin'.

The islaminazis keep saying how much they like being dead, so I see it as win-win.

A Ole Proverb to keep In Mind..
"Keep your Friends close, But keep you Enemies closer"

I see no harm in talking to Iran or Syria..

after all the U.S. kept a dialogue going with the USSR during the Cold War and they had full
intentions of blowing the U.S. off the face of the earth with Nuclear weapons...

why are the repubs/cons so threatened by these small nations who dont have anywhere near the firepower of the U.S. or Russia?

Cal Bear
Looking it up as we speak. Thanks for the tip.

gunner
"Shouldn't you question how it could be a mouthpiece for Israel merely by translating the words of prominent muslims spoken in their own countries and languages?"

I suppose I could take a montage of speeches around this country loosely translate them in Arabic and paint whatever picture I would like. Also, it seems any time I see a spot on TV using MEMRI as its reference I usually see Netanyahoo commenting on it with five minutes of the montage.

I have a better idea, how about MEMRI show the American citizens just what the billions of welfare dollars are going to and why Israel has to lie about its nukes.

Oh and Dr. Meyrav Wurmser is David Wurmser's(see my earlier MEMRI post) wife, David wrote "A Clean Break" for Netanyahoo. That's the easy answer. It's like judging Ken Starr by reading Bill Clinton's autobiography. It is nothing but propaganda.

I would be less of skeptic but Israel buys our politicians, we give them alot of welfare, they spy (even the lobby groups) on us, and they still thumb their nose at us when we ask them to cool hostilities.

We are also currently arming Fatah to combat Hamas. What are our plans for the Palestinians? Looks like death.

Gunner
"So? What typical liberal nonsense - attack the messenger, rather than the message."

When the messenger's husband writes policy for Netanyahoo that is a different story. It is a Likud run organization. I am not anti jewish, most of the jews of the world are anti Likud.

Left Angle
You see no problem with talking to Iran or Syria?

What is it you would say to them that hasn't already been observed by their behavior? This is rhetorical.

If our policy as a nation is to not talk to terrorist states or those that support it, then talking to them is irrelevant.

Further, talking to people who believe that THEIR RELIGION gives them the inherrent RIGHT to kill anyone who is non-muslim, are people you don't negotiate with, they are people you intimidate, fight, hurt and kill before they kill you.

The Russians fell because we used resources beyond their abilities to build up our arms in order to threaten them. At no time did RR attempt to talk to these people to negotiate "peace", he knew this to be a useless option, as we should understand from this issue with Syria and Iran.

You're not being honest about historical facts with your post, it might be worthwhile to investigate it further just for your own peace of mind to know and understand that historical time in our history.

nukepork
We bombed the samurai midgets into democracy, we need to do likewise in the mid-east. Nukes WORK. To paraphrase from that famous wife-beater, "All I am saying, is give nuking Iran a chance." If the world's most peaceful wife-beater said it, I believe it.

pork pork
When you negotiate with evil, evil always wins.

Pork Eating Muslim
Nice quote from Rush.

You will certainly fail in attempts to thwart any war or attack if you stay in some thought process of good/evil. There is no such thing, to perpetuate it only serves as a distraction for understanding another's behavior and acting responsibly from the observation.

Don't get caught up in the religiosity of it all, it's way too dangerous.

Response to voice of reason
I have to respond to voice of reason and his capitalist model for Iraq. First, I agree that capitalism is probably the most workable economic system going, and that we should help people recognize the need for free enterprise. I also think that freedom is a good thing, and we should help people understand the value of personal freedom.

On the other hand, personal freedom without personal restraint will only lead to anarchy. Only in a system where people have interal checks on their behavior will capitalism be able to work freely. Otherwise, the strong will take advantage of the weak, and if enough abuse happens, government structures or dictators have to step in and puff you get socialism, communism, or totalitarianism.

It is not simply chance that democracy, constitutional government, and capitalism have been sustain in America, which has up until recently had a moral foundation based on Judeo-Christian ethics. Not all faith systems are created equally, and believe it or not everyone has one, including you. You may not recognize your own system, but somewhere behind your arguments hide some unprovable, "faith-based" axioms.

How do I know? Because you obviously have tried to make a logical argument, but for logic to be logical you have to base it on something that is not completely provable. Your assumptions might or they might not be reasonable based upon what we can observe in the world, but to dismiss one faith systems off hand shows that you probably have not gotten to the bottom of your own beliefs. By the way, at the heart all belief systems are exclusive, even the inclusive one, are exclusive of faith systems that are not inclusive, as your post demonstrates.

Therefore, while I agree with some of your conclusions about freedom, I think you what you are proposing is like telling the Iraqis to that kite flying is great, but forgetting to mention you need a string. Freedom only works in a context where people value the freedom of others not just themselves, and also take where people believe in personal responsibility toward each other and the community. Christianity has helped to provide personal and community values that help sustain American democracy and capitalism.

Islam, Hindusim, Buddism, and Athiesm have all so far proven unable to produce such a system. Japan and China may be working models for some other belief systems to be capitalists, but so far their track record is limited and still has not matched the American experience.

I am not at all convince that we are going to be able to create democracy or capitalism in Iraq or anywhere in the Middle East, but one thing we should not do is try to replace a failing system with another one that is bound to fail because it does not address some of the core issues of belief.


porkogiate
Remember how well the talks with Hitler went? North Korea and North Vietnam kept to their words pretty well too. Remember when Saddam said, in the mid-90's that he had no nuke program then it was found out that he was within one year of a nuke.

Sam Allen
Your reference towards our country's foundations on Judeo-Christian dogma is incorrect. Many of the founders were, indeed, aethists. Moreover, many of them who were religious, understood that imposing any type of government that endorsed a religion was not in accordance for the reasons of declaring independence from England.

I offer as an opportunity to understand this position from this quote:

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

Many would like to discount this statement, if you do, you must discount all quotes from all documents as irrelevant. If not, how does one glean the choice of each quote or document? To what standard do we keep some or lose others? As to whose standard are we keeping some and not others? This would fly in the face of the whole reason behind Democracy in the first place.

The founding fathers were correct in their understanding of this issue. Unfortunately the blurring of this issue continues to cause problems, not just in our country, but the world at large. There is no scientific evidence of god, but we don't deny the people of the world to believe as they wish, we just need to remember that we don't endorse, nor should we invoke such speak when talking about governments, war, and foreign policy except in situations where another country's foreign policy is based on a religion which sees our destruction as a god given right.

At that point simple acknowlegement of said policy is enough to make our own foreign policy decisions in terms of our actions or safeguards as a result.


Scooternyc
"If our policy as a nation is to not talk to terrorist states or those that support it, then talking to them is irrelevant. "

It's a stupid policy that only a schoolgirl would entertain.

Talk:-)
The talking with Iran and Syria should follow this pattern::
Bush:: Howdy, there,Ahmedy! Well, the whole thing boils down to this, stop the yappin or face some slappin. Stop the boasting or face some roastin. Stop enriching and we'll stop bitchin. Stop messin around or you'll look like a clown. Leave Israel alone before God rots ya bones. Be a really nice boy and we'll let ya keep a 'few' toys. Keep bein a ham we'll treat ya like Saddam.

Abandoning the Dream plans

US invaded Iraq and are in full occupation; for last four years and forces have remained busy consolidating their positions. But now; US is encountering an embarrassing dilemma in Iraq; a planned cake walk of Iraq and creation of dream bases to avail invincible anchorage in the land have gone bust and our stay; there has become totally untenable. Planners are perplexed on finding the dream castles wrecking. Our intelligence sources say that trouble that we are facing in Iraq is not indigenous; these crises are being induced by the neighbouring countries like Iran and others.

Any invader of a sovereign stable country; having wicked designs, should not be surprised by these repercussions.

It is well known that US after grabbing Iraq; has been on a savage hunt to lace the entire region in some sort of enslavement; Syria and Iran are the next US priority targets for their extermination. AS a prelude; US is threatening their security by; scaring them of their existence; encircling the countries and deployment of armies at their door; depriving them of their legitimate right of their defence. Restricting them to acquire even basic technologies; frequently using the UNO and its powers to cripple them.
These countries are made vulnerable from all sides and a media campaign is at its rampage to malign them.The planned Instigation to portend the annihilation and running of perverse schemes to punish and crush their sovereignty is vigorously on.

In the light of so glaring evidences; how do we expect the oppressed (victim) to behave?

Any one with an IQ above room temperature may come to a conclusion that the persecuted will certainly devise some ways to get rid of the oppressor and to defeat him and frustrate his plan. Invariably; Iran and Syria are all out to frustrate US Plans.

With all the exercises of vehemence being conducted by US forces; even then, we are compelled to leave Iraq… but how?

We are talking to every one to come up with an idea, a face saver; a helping hand; but why not talk to one; to whom we need to talk; Iran and Syria.
But we are bent not to talk to them because we are;

*Fearing Iran will show us our true face.
*On negotiation table we have to accept the truth.
*Or we fear that we may have to come to accept the terms or come to a solution.

But we don’t want to talk or negotiate; because we don’t want to solve the problem. If problem is solved; we have to pack up and abandon our dream plans; and that we don’t want to do.
---------------------------------
Love for all, Hatred for none



talk
we had been talking to syria for a number of years and yet they still support hezbolah and let arms flow through there country to attack israel,like it or not israel is allied with the usa as many others are, so do we say this ally is to be sacrificed,what does that say to the rest, that the usa cannot be relied upon. as to iran, this guy is a front man for the clerics that hold real control of iran and they are bound and determined to do whatever they want reguardless of what anyone says and the more we sit on our azzes and think you can talk to these fanatics the more time they have to get that nuke developed and use it and spread nuke material to terrorists to sneak in across our open border and set one off,talking will not stop this idiology of hate ,only decisive action to stop this mad man and his ilk will suffice,does it take another 911 to wake people in this country up,wasnt that enough,do some research there teaching there children to be the next generation of fanatics to kill the infedels,meaning us and our allies ,its all one battle.

Hanson's essay on Iran
Hanson invokes the memory of Churchill in support of his hardline position, but it was that great British statesman who said, "Jaw-jaw is always better that waw-waw (war-war)." Churchill was right. We should be willing to talk with anyone, anytime, anywhere.

Talking does not mean that we start making concessions. But there can be no conflict resolution without talking. Conflict resolution aims to discover areas of mutual interest, and to build upon those. No matter how opposed the publicly stated interests of opposing parties are, there are always areas of mutual interest. It is in the interest of both sides to avoid war. Principled negotiation is not appeasement!

george w bush
i dont know who you think you are but i,ll tell ya i am no liberal, and i dont see the real george w bush doing what you want ",talking to iran ",why should he, the kook in iran has been recorded preaching the destuction of israel and the united states and any other that does not believe as he and his ilk believe,i just said that its a shame that people in iran that dont think that way could get killed in the battle if we would ever attack them ,innocents alway do get killed in any war.i just dont see a very good senario if iran gets a bomb,there behind the insurgents in iraq funding them and giving them weapons to kill our soldiers and everyone seems to forget that. i say send them back to the stone age where they believe they are anyway.

Bold action in Iran needed
There is no war in Iraq, only a war on terror. Iraq is the current battlefield. With the introduction of Iran as a major player in this war, our options now are to take this war to the next battlefield in Iran or wait until Iran takes it to New York City. We must act, we must act boldly, and we must act soon.

http://www.poweredbyreagan.com

porkaphrasefromalltheusualporkpects
The greatest lie that evil ever told was that it doesn't exist. Evil exists, don't be dumb.

porkernyc
The Holocaust didn't exist either! Pork Allah!

CVN65
Exactly who will nuke NYC, DC, London etc? Even if Iran gets nukes, it won't be able to deliver them far enough to affect any of the targets you mentioned.

porkdelivery
Yeah, Craig! Them dumb Persians kan't nevar figur owt hw 2 lunch a nukleir bum!

Gregdn
"It's a stupid policy that only a schoolgirl would entertain."

Actually you fail to see the beauty of this policy. It would be like asking the bully on the playground to negotiate with you to stop beating you up. You don't. You beat up the bully who then stops bullying you.

Apparently you are of the idea that you can negotiate with all people, when in fact, you can only negotiate, and should negotiate, with like-minded nations. Everything else is extortion.

Certainly you're not that short-sighted.


Love your work, Victor
And another great essay.

Iran should not be given anything to inflate their already huge egos.

Appeasement in other forms, is what this is.

I am interested to know
what the people on this board think of the duly elected Iraqi government talking to Iran. After all, that is exactly what is happening. Should we be a part of this process? Why not? Why let our allies sidestep us in this way? Why give Iraq to Iran? Why not talk now before we *need* to get them on our side?

WWII parallels possibly appropriate
It is well documented that Hitler asked Churchill for passage of ships carrying Jews to Madagascar through the Strait of Gibralter as an alternative to killing them. Churchill refused and, I would add, might be seen to bear some blame in the Holocaust that ensued.

By the time that the Zionist group LEHI (lead at the time in part by later-Prime-Minister Yitzack Shamir) contacted the Nazis and asked them to forceably (presumably on pain of death) transfer to the Jews to British Palestine to fight the enemies of the Reich, the holocaust was in full swing and Germany was intent on using this to control dissidents.

The moral of the story is that strategic diplomacy even during a time of conflict is appropriate. It can help to prevent horrible catastrophies as happened in WWII.

Neville Chamberlin
Starting a new club by seance. requesting members with the calibre of James Baker and Mr. Hamilton.

einhverfr
Of course Churchill is partly to blame for the holocaust. One of the architects for ending the holocaust is somehow responsible for parts of it in your twisted logic. Nice. Roosevelt too, right? And the American GIs for not getting there faster. One group bears responsibility for the holocaust: the murderers, supporters, and the silent of Germany, from Hitler down!! Why is that so hard to understand? If we'd have just given them Poland or somewhere else to send the Jews it wouldn't have happened. You moral idiot. Stay in college, where the moral inversion isn't quite so easily seen. Your life will be too difficult in the real world.

Craig
Yeah, the Iranians can figure out a way to manufacure a nuclear weapon, but rocketry will be absolutely outside their ability forever. Are you kidding me? Are you stupid or just willfully ignorant?

There is a huge divide in this country, but gone, apparently, are the days when people can argue logically and reasonably their positions. "The Iranians may get the bomb, but they still won't have the means to deliver them." Yeah, right. Like they couldn't put a nuke on a freaking sail boat or passenger plane (sacrificing all those on board--they wouldn't do that to their own passengers, would they?) and detonate it on command. Your stupidity will get others killed, and you won't even blink or say you're sorry...or think you've said anything wrong.

Mad Doc
Uh, you did read the article, right? European nations have been in "deep negotiations" with Iran for the past number of years--and don't think we haven't had our messages heard. NOTHING has resulted. "Talks", in diplo-speech, always means something for both parties. What can or should we be ready to offer the murdering mullahs of Iran? If, as I believe, there is nothing we should offer such murderers and fascists, except silence and the uncertaintly of when/if bombs will start dropping, then we should maintain our public silence. Is it possible that you're wrong, and that in their twisted logic diplomatic discussions with them emboldens them--convincing them we're weak, unresolved, and looking for an exit? Be careful what you convey to people like they are...they're not like you--stop projecting your goodness onto a group like they are.

Memri
is a mouthpiece for Israel.

That's rich.

SR 11/1/02 - Muslim Clerics State that the Koran teaches that the jews are the descendants of apes pigs and other animals.

And countless others

That has to be the ne single most ignorant post I have seen. Ever. EVER.

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