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Wednesday, June 18, 2008
Tony Blankley :: Townhall.com Columnist
Democracy in Decline
by Tony Blankley
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The broad, sneering European-elite response to the plucky Irish vote to oppose the further centralization of governmental power in the European Union and the emerging opinion in China suggest that from Brussels to Shanghai, democracy may be losing its appeal.

Democracy, broadly understood as government by the people being governed, has been the upward aspiration of Western civilization for about 1,000 years -- and of the rest of the world for about 100 years. Certainly since the Magna Carta in 1215; arguably going back another millennium to when the Germanic tribes selected their chiefs through a more-or-less popular rather than hereditary method. The pace quickened in our Revolution of 1776 and the French Revolution of 1789, advanced further with Woodrow Wilson's call for the self-determination of nations after World War I. The democratic urge gained further rhetorical support in the post-World War II United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 21:

"(1) Everyone has the right to take part in the government of his country, directly or through freely chosen representatives.

"(2) Everyone has the right of equal access to public service in his country.

"(3) The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government; this will shall be expressed in periodic and genuine elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret vote or by equivalent free voting procedures."

Arguably, the aspiration for and expectation of democracy reached its zenith with the fall of the Soviet Union and the prediction that the end of history had been reached in the form of liberal democratic capitalism as practiced in the last decade of the 20th century.

But events and experiences I have had in the past week reinforce a growing sense I have had for a few years that the ideal and practice of robust democracy may be seen in history as a quirk of the 18th-20th centuries. I can imagine students 500 years from now studying democracy the way we study medieval history: its rise, its high period, causes of its decline.

Admittedly, the rise and aspiration for democracy has not been a line steadily upward. In the 1930s, many in the West thought that both Mussolini's and Hitler's fascisms seemed to work better than Depression-era democracy. For others at the time, the Russian effort at communism seemed the better alternative.

But for those of us born in the middle of last century, in the afterglow of democracy's WWII triumph (with, admittedly, a huge assist from Soviet Russia's overwhelming military sacrifices and triumphs on the eastern front), democracy seemed the objective of the entire world. Even the Soviet-controlled nations put the phrase "democratic republic" in their names. And post-colonial governments in Africa all at least talked in terms of democracy.

It first hit me with force that democracy may not be a universal goal when I was in Russia in 2005 to discuss my book on radical Islam. Almost everyone I met -- from leading academics, to my driver, to radio talk show hosts, to all sorts of people I met in bars -- loved Putin and were contemptuous of democracy and capitalism. Every Russian I met wanted a strong government, thought democracy is inherently corrupt and useless, and that capitalism is another word for theft.

Last week, I was in China and had an opportunity to talk with several Chinese businesspeople -- some top executives, some shopkeepers and, once again, several middle-class people in bars (a small sample out of 1.3 billion Chinese). Each was perfectly content to let the unelected Communist Party run the government, as long as economic growth continued. A point made by several of them (admittedly, all the people I talked with are doing well economically) and also made by a local academic expert is that the rest of Asia is noticing that the Chinese Communist Party-managed economic method is working better than the American democratic capitalism method.

I find it melancholy to consider that perhaps people aspire to self-government not because it is the natural and dignified condition of man to be free and self-governing, but merely only if it is likely to turn a quick economic profit.

Which brings me to the Irish vote. After a similar vote was lost in 2005 in France and in the Netherlands, the decision of the European elite was to redecide the matter by going around the people and deciding through parliaments (where the fix was in) rather than by plebiscite. Only the Irish insisted on a vote of the people before turning over sovereign power to Brussels bureaucrats. And they voted it down 53-47 percent -- against the loud voices of all the political parties and national leaders. God bless the Irish people.

Almost the entire business, political and cultural elite of Europe argue for centralizing EU power in Brussels because it will be good for business (and give Europe a more coherent voice and action in the world). The price for that is to reduce the role of democratically elected government officials and to give more power to unelected governing forces.

Is that why partisans risked their lives sniping at Nazi soldiers and throwing homemade bombs at German panzer tanks a mere half-century ago? Is the world getting ready to give up its birthright to self-govern for a mess of pottage?

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About The Author
Tony Blankley served as press secretary to then Speaker of the U.S. House of Representatives, Newt Gingrich. Tony Blankley is the author of The West's Last Chance: Will We Win the Clash of Civilizations? .
 
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The decline of Democracy!!!
I believe your analysis is very valid Tony, and I personally have thought for some years now that our contry and our form of self goverment is on borrowed time.
So many of our politicians, as well as the wealthy elite, corporations, and government leaders are in the process of outsourcing control of much of our infrastructure, and our middle class jobs and livelihood which will surely eliminate the middle class america and return us to the wealty, and the Peon classes.

The Rise and Fall of the U.S.A.
Reason: Our elected representatives do not represent us. Our judiciary legislates from the bench. Our law enforcement is outnumbered by gangs who are better armed. Our borders are defenseless as our representatives will do nothing to control who comes into our country for what reason. Our school system is a failed system. Our foreign policy consists of give-away programs to countries that despise us. To these problems and many others, we are told that there will be a committee to study or investigate it. If there is any hope for this country at all, our citizens have to take it back and take it back now. We have to have the courage to speak out, march, and/or engage in any civil disobedience necessary to make the point.

You've gotta love the Irish
This is just one more reason.

Every generation forgets how hard-won freedom was for the previous generation. That's why we're about to elect a far-left political novice to the White House. He tickles the ears of those who never experienced the stagflation of the 1970s. They think we are merely living the inevitable outcome of history because they don't remember the dark days of the Cuban missile crisis, Soviet advances in the space race, and Communism making gains all over the world under Pres. Carter's watch. And of course their history classes focus on gender studies, "q.ueer theory" (their term, not mine), and liberal guilt, so they'll never be the wiser. Until they start paying taxes and get over their rebellion phases.

Our government is of value only...
It was once taught that our Constitution was of value to govern only a righteous or good people... and that it was wholly inadequate for any other.

As our moral values decline, and as we allow - and even demand - more government intrusion into our lives, it is understandable that those looking from the outside might feel their 'known tyranny' is better than our 'unknown' democratic republic.

No nation can avoid the loss of liberty when the people become slothful. No nation can endure in peace unless it respects and honors its citizens and their God-given rights to self-determination and property.

We now have both legislative and judicial branches of government who discourage industry and thrift, and who hold their political objectives above the rights of the people.

But, as my grandmother taught me so many years ago, we get what we deserve - collectively, if not individually.

Informed citizenry can save it
Very important discussion to have, certainly. But to lay the onus entirely on others is another shirking of responsibility. The election by the Supreme Court of Bush in 2000--clearly ignoring the will of the Florida voters; the takeover of our politics by Big Money, plus assorted policies of Bush these past 8 years-- all bode ill for democracy.

But it's not so dire as Tony depicts: the Irish vote-- whether you're for or agin', slows down centralization; Obama and Hillary's generation of unbridled enthusiasm among new voters, not to mention Obama's unprecedented small-donor tsunami, are all pluses for democracy.

And who knows, if the will of the Iraqi people to rid the country of foreign troops is realized-- and we actually do leave-- that'll show some hope as well.

Term Limits for Congress
It's the only way the people can hope to mitigate the tyranny of unscrupulous, petty, dumb,self-centered, career politicians...

Does USA prove democracy works?
The USA was not founded as a democracy, but as a federation of state governments sending indirectly-elected representatives to the Senate, with limited franchises for the House and a president chosen by an electoral college whose powers were carefully circumscribed by the Constitution.

Women did not get the vote till 1920 and blacks were effectively disenfranchised in the South until the 1950s.

We have only had a nominally full-on democracy since then, but almost at once the real rulers in Washington-- men with money-- have done their considerable best to frustrate the will of the citizenry in Congress.

They let judges rewrite the Constitution to shoot down inconvenient policies and preferences. Also, because it is easier for the money men to lobby one person to get what they want, they have fostered an "imperial presidency" whicn makes war without Congressional approval-- the biggest generator of tax-financed opportunities for business-- and claims the right to override the states in such areas as schooling and healthcare, also with huge chances for private profit at public expense.

We have a "two party system", finagled by lawyers, to frustrate the direct expression of the popular will if it contradicts the interests of this warfare/welfare nexus between bureaucrats and lobbyists. There are no great ideological differences between these parties: as the Bush years have shown, an ostensible Republican can be just as keen on "liberal humanitarian" intervention as Scoop Jackson and just as eager to expand the scope of the State as LBJ.

We no longer have the right to lecture China, Europe or anyone much on the splendors of Constitutional government. We have allowed the Founders' legacy to be squandered in return for handouts, and our civil liberties to be traded for "homeland security" against fictitious terror threats.

http://www.ronpaul2008.com

165,000 new gov't workers


What is amazing is that Bush - despite many complaints of profligacy, is hiring 165,000 new added government employees.

This writer show do research on the employment growth on a local, State and Federal level for the past five years.

They are promising life time health benefits after only five years service.

I think President Bush and a Democrat Congress have gone insane. Their profligate spending is a greater threat to our freedom than our external enemies.

It is hard, ugly work to limit government. I think it sad that President Bush is going on his European farewell jaunt rather than doing his level best to limit government and NOT spend every dime he gets approved from Congress.


Wll's 5:03 and Lisa's 5:36
have merit, tho I think a threat does exist from Islamic terror(Will's "fictitious" threat).

I just think the adminstration hyped this threat.

Use of "information" from the socalled Iraqi scientist codenamed "curveball", in claiming Iraq had an ongoing wmd program, comes to mind.(Curveball was a fraud).

The fiction Al Qaida and Saddam were operationally linked, is another.

In fact, Bin Laden despised Saddam, much like he despises the Saudi rulers, viewing both as corrupt despots preventing the will of Muslims from adopting "true" Islam.

Another is the fiction the administration allowed to be disseminated that Saddam was involved in 9/11.

Blankley is correct about the Irish. I applaud their vote, just as I applaud earlier vote of French and Dutch. They are not so quick to cede their sovereignty and nationalism.

Good for them.

The same sinister forces wanting to do this in Europe, are at work in the U.S.

Bush and liberal democrats are both behind the scheme here.

One reason "democracy" has fallen into such disrepute internationally is Iraq.

It has had the opposite effect Bush sought.

When al jazeera beamed the death, destruction, looting, anarchy, chaos, Iraq underwent as a result of our invasion to bring about "democracy", much of the world, especially the Muslim world, recoiled in horror.

They wanted nothing to do with inevitable "birth pangs of democracy", Condi Rice so idiotically characterized on Iraq.

And Putin, at a press briefing in which Bush publicly lectured him on lack of democracy in Russia, pointedly and acidly replied to Bush: "To tell you the truth, Mr. President, we don't want the kind of 'democracy' they have in Iraq"(referring to the bombings, anarchy, sectarian violence).

Bush's face turned red, and he stammered, "just wait".


Sovreignity and Dependency
We are insourcing our dependency and outsourcing our Sovreignity. On the one hand, we have uncontrolled borders and a lack of an industrial policy that makes us increasingly dependent on third world countries for the labor and the goods we require, and on the other, we are being systematically absorbed into a world economy that we can neither control nor act independently of. Having added 4 trillion over the last 8 years in debt to the 5 trillion we already owed, we are now a debtor to the very nations that we compete with, and no longer have the ability to chart an independent economic path for this country. We cannot equip our military without the involvement of numerous countries in every major weapons system, we cannot change our trade policies without the approval of numerous other countries, and we cannot execute our foreign policy or wars without the approval of other governments, nor of the international economic community. Sovreignity - in sum, is being outsourced. And, we have become dependent on the world for our survival. We are a superpower who no longer has the ability to take independent action - which means, by definition, that we are no longer a superpower. We have the form - but not the substance.

The End is Near!
Russians have never wanted democracy, they want the strong man like Uncle Joe.

And where these Chinese expressing their true feelings to a Western journalist. Why does Tony give no credit to those who died in Tinneman square for democracy.

This article speaks more about the gloom and doom of contemporary conservatism than the health of democracy.

And you forgot...
You forgot that DEMOCRACY is dead in the GOP as well, Tony. Have you paid ANY attention at all to what has been going on around the nation at state GOP conventions? Fascism, not democracy, is alive and well.

And it all comes down to MONEY.

Pitiful.

http://www.campaignforliberty.org

It seems to me...
that a good portion of the, so called, conservatives on Townhall long for an Imperial Presidency.

re: and you forgot
pianogirl: It's people like you that contribute to the vicious partisan rancor and prevent this country from moving forward.

You don't like Bush? Does that mean you have to use irresponsible comments like saying "Democracy is dead in the GOP"? How about if I say it's dead in the Dem party? The party that created Political Correctness to suppress speech they don't like? The party that created the vile Identity Politics; a spoils system that is balkanizing our country. Don't talk to me about the Reps!

And finally, your use of the word "fascism". Do you even know what it means? The Left flings "fascist" and "nazi" around willi-nilly; the words are used so much they've become nothing more than generic pejoratives. Too bad, because the words have now lost their power.

Democracy is not dead
It is thriving in fact. The nations' founders predicted that democracy would lead to ruin due to the masses voting themselves bounties from the national treasury. That is exactly what we have going on at a healthy clip.
Tony's single use of the term democratic capitalism is also telling. Mixing democracy and capitalism leads to fascism. Now doesn't that nicely define us? We are a welfare state for the people and a fascist state for business.
Tony is mixing up the true definitions of democracy and capitalism with the distorted reality that masquerades as the institutions. It would neither surprise me a bit upon inquiry to find that Tony isn't really a fan of democracy but of a constitutional republic. I would also expect that he doesn't believe our fiat money, government directed business model is true capitalism either. He's mixed up by the common usage and understanding, me thinks. Those are wrong and he knows it. I know he means well but he uses words lazily; a certain mortal sin for a journalist.
The worlds' peoples are hardly to blame for seeing what _is_ rather than what _should be_ and rejecting what _is_, seen as a troublesome combination; democracy and capitalism.
Unfortunately they will probably never see the true definition of those words put into use.

Greed kills ........
Greed kills! But what the heck happens after greed kills democracy? I suspect the crazies will take over and be the greadiest of the greedy! This will then send the world back to the stone age with worldwide depressions, starvations, wars, and worse with the distructive weapons that exist! Maybe someday there will be no Earth, if and when we continue on this path! And all of the money in world will not save anyone!!! Think about this!!!!

What is Democratic Capitalism?
para_dimz beat me to it. The "American democratic capitalism method" should not be held up as the ideal against which even more extensively state-run economies are measured. It shouldn't be a surprise that others don't worship our schizophrenic system.

There are tenets of our Constitution -- e.g., limited government, separation of powers -- that can be universally applicable and highly beneficial to any country that adopts them, but even we don't adhere to those principles. Our governments at every level have overrun their enumerated powers, and far too many public officials conduct themselves either oblivious to or disdainful of the document they swear an oath to.

We have two political parties, whose adherents comprise a small minority of our population, but which effectively control our political processes to their exclusive benefit. Our far more vast number of independents -- admittedly spread all over the political spectrum -- seem convinced that we are a tiny minority, and unless / until we make inroads at un-sanctioning the parties, we might as well be a tiny minority.

Roy in Oslo says...
"...The election by the Supreme Court of Bush in 2000--clearly ignoring the will of the Florida voters; ..."

WHAT!!!!!!!!! EVERY, let me repeat, EVERY recount, by Florida state government entities to un-official news recounts, showed George W. Bush as the WINNER!!!! The Supreme Court of the US stepped in because the Florida Supreme Court IGNORED Florida election law and tried to let Algore steal the election. The Dems didn't count military absentee votes, wouldn't recount in GOP leaning counties, and tried to change state law after the fact. Take your head from that dark place and face REALITY!!

liberal demopcrace on the rise
liberals ahould stop writing as if they are losing. any examination of history shows a slow (perhaps too slow) but steady historical progression toward liberalism. just examine any institution now and compare it to how that institution operated 100 years agpo. more liberal, and it was more liberal 100 years ago then it ws 100 years before that. the only thing conservatives manage to do is delay liberal victories , winning a skirmish here and there, but eventually losing. while neither i nor anyone else can predict how this will continue say 100 years from now., but if history is any teacher you can bet it will be more liberal. keep fighting conservatives , you provid needed comic relief

Liberalism is Socialism
Not sure what you're talking about MRCMRC. Liberalism is nothing short of creeping socialism. Conservatism is the only philosophy that supoprts true freedom. Conservatives don't look to the government, via your tax dollars, to solve everyones' problems. Liberalism creates dependency. Why is it impossible for Liberals to learn from their mistakes? How much money has Liberalism wasted in the fight against this or that cause all the while believing that if only there was more money to spend or if only the right person were there to try then all would be right. Liberalism is theft on a grand scale. Conservatives work toward a smaller less intrusive government. Liberals want the government to be their savior, parent, best friend, etc. Conservatives value freedom of speech, Liberals want to crush dissent. For proof of that look to the attempts to implement the "Fairness DOcrtine" or north to Canada where Mark Steyn is being hauled before a so-called Human Rights Commission. Look to Europe where Holocause denial can land you in jail, where they have criminal penalties for insulting people.
Conservatives look for common sense solutions to real problems while Liberals creat problems and misery in search of problems they have created. Energy is the perfect example. The Dems for years have opposed the GOP in the search for increasing US energy supplies. Liberals, one could hypothesize, are responsible for 9/11 and the continunig funding of terrorism, Soveriegn Wealth Funds, and the propping up of 3rd world dictators because of their refusal to allow us to exploit our own energy. Liberals for some reason want to believe that we can't explore for energy without making a mess while evidence to the contrary is all around in Norway, the Gulf of Mexico, the North Sea, et al.

Liberalism is Socialism 2
Liberalism is a prison from which there can be no escape. Liberalism seeks to punish the successful by taking from them the fruits of their success and giving it away to the less successful because Liberals believbe the successful must have somehow cheated or been the beneficiary of an unfair advantage.
Liberalism is a poisonous rot that has destroyed our public schools, has created an out of control legal system in which suing someone is the right answer to everything. LIberalism has created a "rights" society without concomitant responsibilities. Liberalism has created a black sub-culture in which a majority of black babies are born to unwed mothers.
Just what are the redeeming values of modern Liberalism? I can find none.

MRC
There answer is quite simple:
"while neither i nor anyone else can predict how this will continue say 100 years from now.,"
It will be the demise of of our individual freedoms and of the greatest form of government the peoples of the world has ever devised.
As for what is comic, it is the thought that pie in the sky Marxism can replace it; except that that rather than being funny, it is profoundly sad.

Freedom in a Liberal state?
Is it possible to be truly free in a Liberal state? A state that takes more of your earnings than you take home? A state that takes from you only to give back in another form? Health care for example. Nowhere in our Constitution is the Federal government authorized to create a federal health care system and I don't want one, yet the socialists in Congress are Hell bent on creating such a system the Hell with our Constitution. I want the FREEDOM to choose my own options for health care. A Liberal prison state takes from me by force part of my earnings and gives part of it back in the form of a health care plan I don't want but also gives part of my earnings to someone else. So I not only have to work for myself, I have to work for someone else as well. This is NOT freedom. It is a prison with no exit.
Liberals seem to value the Constitution when it comes to their perverted vision of free speech yet conveniently ignore all the limits placed on federal power.
Liberalism and the massive ignorance of thepopulace it promotes via the public schools is what will cause the collapse of our democracy because the ignorant masses will continue to vote for the socialists who promise them freebies which are not in fact free byt extorted from fellow Americans.
Obama, Clinton, Durbin, Schumer et al are ALL socialist elites who want to tell us how we should live our lives, steal from us, condescend to us, and run roughshod over our most basic freedoms.
Liberalism in its extreme socialist form may win because of its success in capturing the education system where students first learn nothing and then are indoctrinated in multi-culti PC BS that preaches a host of false history, theory, etc, based on guilt.

Liberalism is a prison.

Royinoslo...
Since you still think Bush didn't win the 2000 election, it's impossible for anyone with an ounce of sense to take you seriously.

Dolts like you having the right to vote are indescribably more dangerous to democratic principles than the Bush admin could ever be.

Liberal Fascism...
...by Jonah Goldberg. Jonah puts it all together nicely....in 413 pages not including notes...and that includes the NAZI Party Platform.

Re-examine our own history
Tony, your pessimism appears inconsistent with the messages of joy we recieve from St. Patrick's pulpit each Sunday! Don't forget, only through suffering are we able to enjoy the joys of salvation and hope. ADn from a histsorical perspective, take time to re-examine our popular will at the time of our FOunding Fathers. Most all the people were against 'vertturning the apple cart." Only when dumb tax policies provoked revolt did the cries of liberty make sense ... otherwise, the farmers and especially the merchants only wanted the government -- whether British or otherwise -- to stay out of their way. Soudns familiar? And no leaders, not even Jefferson, truly believed in "rule by the masses" -- rather they wanted to lead popular opinion, as an election objective, but not "true democracy." What's needed (for CHina or RUssia or anywhere else) is a moderately civil way for rejection of the exisitng power leaders. That's the heart of democracy, and that's still taking place even in most of dictatorial regimes.

AMEN! badboy!
A comment is required so AMEN! Again badboy!

Tony Blankley: Yes
With Conservatives supporting the centralization of executive authority, and defending the confinement of Americans in Iraq with out giving them due process under American law, and supporting the torture of people for what they have been accused of doing not for what they have done, and for supporting domestic spying and search and without cause....

I think it is obvious what direction Conservatives themselves favor.... It is tyranny over liberty...

For conservatism liberalism itself is the enemy of mankind.

Uber, you forgot, Liberalism is also a..
....mental disease

Democracy in Decline
Unless the Press quits ingratiating itself with the rich and powerful, our democracy and way of life will continue its downward path where "elitism" trumps the will and sense of the people at large. This is not just about Liberalism vs. Conservatism per se, but of a system that has gone terribly awry in far too many ways whether it's in government, education, religion, business, or wherever. We all need to wise up and take stock of where we are and where we intend to go as a nation. In so doing, The Press, individually and collectively, must do a far better job of keeping the system honest. Only with a vibrant press which remains critically and honestly objective can we really hope to turn things around for ourselves and generations to follow.

Jim
Green Valley, AZ

China, Russia
Some of this ignores the transition that all societies go through in order to get to democracy. Capitalism, after all, is an essential ingredient of Democracy. But capitalism and market forces do not simply exist, they must be developed over time. China and Russia are moving through stages - and Tony is impatient. In Russia, there was no capitalistic infrastructure whatsoever when the USSR collapsed. The only people who had any understanding of it were the black marketers. the rest were entirely clueless. They had no business experience because there were no businesses in Russia. In China, there were 1.2 billion people. In the 70's, 95% of those people were peasants, had no understanding of democracy, and less of capitalism. There was little industry no power or highway infrastructure, and no businesses - not one. Today, they've moved 200 million people into cities and are building a middle class. However, that still leaves 1 billion. What Tony didn't say is that the essential reality for the business classes in China is the certain knowledge that if the country were a democracy, the 1 billion essentially uneducated and illiterate peasants would rule. Not the 200 million. In Russia, there was chaos until Putin, if only because most of the enterprises were taken over and run by criminals - the only ones with any capitalistic knowledge. Now they have at least a semblence of security and of systems to supply necessities. In 25 or so years, they will eventually want more self rule. Right now, they want stability. In China, the 200 million and the government have a deal. We'll build the country up while you keep the peasants fed,clothed and housed. In the end, when they've moved another 300 million to the cities, and developed a middle class that can offset the peasants, you'll see more democracy. Right now, it isn't likely to work.

Comittment
In order for democracy to exist those who live in this Republic have lost the ability to commit to loyalty, faith, education, integrity and character. We have allowed our government to deny us of all these blocks for freedom and have lost control of our destiny, we are our own nemisis and we fail to believe in our own ability to maintain the freedom we made.

Take care of how you cast your vote.

Democracy Trumped by Entitlement.
Entitlement to “FREE” health care, “FREE” child care, more money for less work, and everything else is the mentality that is taking over world opinion. In America it is due to we already have so much that if a family has just one car, one TV, can’t travel the world, is to busy having fun to take care of their children, and can’t live the life of a millionaire they feel oppressed.

The rest of the world (except for China) feels that it is too much effort to compete with a successful country like America. They envy us. This envy has turned to a desire to bring us down to their level. After all it is easier to destroy then to build.

When the world was ruled by autocrats and the people had very little if anything at all, the prevailing ideology of the people was to be self reliant and the master of our own destiny. The reason why America was so successful we worked our butts off to achieve. In the latter part of the twentieth century the rest of the world was mired in socialistic philosophy. They got used to it and lost any self reliance they may have had. In America our desire for the good life and self indulgence overpowered our self reliant ideology.

It may take several decades of socialism’s misery to wake us all up.

I remember when the U.S. ...
... was a democracy.

Now unelected justices make our laws, the Congress has rigged elections to favor incumbents (and their heirs), and free speech was destroyed by McCain -Feingold.

Now, all we have left is the Second Amendment, and the libs are trying to pry that from our cold, dead hands ...

Come on Now
When the world was ruled by Autocrats, the people were mired in the deepest poverty. Self reliance meant only the self reliance of the barest survival, lack of mobility, and short life spans. There was a reason they were called serfs, just as there was a reason that those serfs then became tenant farmers who owned nothing. They were not, to put it mildly, the masters of their own destiny. They were instead, mastered. The Irish and Scots fled to America by the millions precisely because they were left to starve in their crops failed - and they did.

Re: Informed citizenry can save it.
Royinoslo I think you have been drink to much liberal kool-aid.

In the American system of presidential elections, (read the Constitution, you may find it enlightening) the electoral vote determines the winner, and Bush won this count, although Gore received the most votes (called the "popular vote"). This was the fourth time in American history that a candidate won the presidency without receiving at least a plurality of the popular vote; it also happened in the elections of 1824, 1876 and 1888. The popular vote does not matter, but then you may believe that Gore still won the vote in Florida. However, no matter how many times they recounted and tried to guess voters intent, George Bush came ahead. So who really was trying to ignore the will of the Florida people.

If you are still not convinced, then read the Nov 12, 2001 New York Times article titled, “Study of Disputed Florida Ballots Finds Justices Did Not Cast the Deciding Vote” stating, “A comprehensive review of the uncounted Florida ballots from last year's presidential election reveals that George W. Bush would have won even if the United States Supreme Court had allowed the statewide manual recount of the votes that the Florida Supreme Court had ordered to go forward.”

“But it's not so dire as Tony depicts: the Irish vote-- whether you're for or agin', slows down centralization…. Obama's unprecedented small-donor tsunami, are all pluses for democracy.” This statement is quite contradictory; how is that small donor’s help slow down centralization, when they are only representative of many people supporting a candidate that what increase central planning? I agree that a grass roots effort is a great de-centralizing mechanism but when the end is more central planning, it is not a plus nor is it de-centralizing.

Redlac
Generally agree that there may be a natural transition toward some sort of representative govt where the will of the people is reflected.

Whether a democracy or not, the fact is Putin is far more popular among the Russian people than Bush is among the American people.

We ought to encourage this transition toward some sort of more representative governance, but I think it a bit presumptuous and arrogant for us to think our form of democratic governance should or must be the model for the rest of the world.

In the Muslim world, and in China, even Russia, such governance will probably be much more authoritarian in nature than what we would like to see.

In Muslim societies, perhaps the role of the tribal elders, along with the imams, will constitute the basis of governmental authority, but they will have to reflect the values and beliefs of those they govern, in my humble opinion.

Representative & Democratic Not The Same
The problem with your argument is that Democracies all end up going the way the U.S. is now and historically have universally ended in tyranny.
You know better than to tout "democracy" as a benefit to free men. Or you should at any rate. Individuals such as yourself are a primary source of this constant leftist disinformation concerning "democracy".
Democracy has nothing whatsoever to do with the "Rule of Law" that defines a Constitutional Republic. People like you seem to think the "semantics" of the distinction between that which enhances freedom and liberty and the mindless mob-rule based on democracy.
The U.S. was never intended to be a Democracy and has only begun it's cataclysmic decline since the word "Republic" became to tough for political pundits and politicians to voice.
You're part of the problem, boy. Quit going face down and worshipping the false God of "PC Democracy" and start talking about the values upon which this country was founded. Democracy was not among them and semantics/word games do count. Ask the Russian, N. Korean, Vietnamese and Chinese peoples how great their "democracy" has worked out for them.
You should be ashamed for furthering the Leftist agenda by playing their "PC Dyslexia / Semantics" game. I thought you were smarter than that.

Dwain Cleveland

Free Markets and Democracy
Capitalists continually say that Free Markets are the prerequisite to Democracy, but the truth is that in reality it is Democracy that is the prerequisite for Free Markets.

Of course Capitalists in actuality oppose both Markets free from coercion, since capitalists rely on their ability to engage in coercive market activities in order to make a profit, and therefore almost always prefer doing business in authoritarian countries, so that they can use the national police to secure cheep labor, brake up unions, and use corrupt politicians to steal or obtain at a coerced low price the property of others.

And for the same reasons they oppose democracy in their own organizations. In fact Tyranny, not democracy is operational necessity of all capitalists in order to do business.

Responsibility vs Entitlement
It is not a coincidence that a willingness to trade in the dignity of self-rule for hoped for better economic prospects afflicts the world today. Self-rule requires that individual responsibility be paramount and it would seem that most people today are far more concerned with their rights, (i.e. entitlements), than they are with their responsibilities. They would much prefer that government bureaucracies be responsible for taking care of ‘the less fortunate’, thereby relieving themselves of that burden, all the while congratulating themselves that by abdicating that responsibility they are demonstrating what good and caring people they truly are.

The founding principle of this country was Liberty, inherent in which is equal opportunity. Liberty is equal opportunity. Today too many seek equal outcome, ostensibly as proof of equal opportunity, but, because people are individuals with individual strengths and weaknesses, equal outcome can only be approached by the suppression of Liberty.

DerKrieger
I like your posts. In my experience, untrammeled liberal policies have done worse than punish success (though that's up there)- its created a false sense of success for people who are sometimes lavishly rewarded for doing nothing or are outright destructive. I've seen:

*Academic awards given to kids who simply started showing up to class, but haven't done the work. This would be okay for encouragement, but kids who both show up and do the work are passed over in favor of feel good rewards. This happens alot, and it po's the good students, many of whom have hard lives as well but DO NOT act up.

* Credit for core math class that was was really a dance class. Why? Because you count the steps when doing some dances.

* Many kids accepted to college and given scholarships despite numerous issues and unwillingness to meet academic requirements. Not all colleges do this, but enough do.

* Gov't jobs given based upon race alone without complete or proper credentials; and professional credentials granted depsite inadequate test scores. Some have the pesky clinical tests waived. This happens ALOT.

Reality has been bent to the degree that when presented, reality is seen as an oppressive enemy that threatens what has become normal.


not democracy
its not democracy thats in the decline . its hard core conservatism and we thank the lord for that. whats taking its place is socialist democracy . as it has been in almost all of its history europe is a lirttle kmore advanced then we are but we are catching up fast, just a matter of time conservies.

conservies
and in your heart of hearts you know it.

what dems really think...
Royinoslo wrote:
"And who knows, if the will of the Iraqi people to rid the country of foreign troops is realized-- and we actually do leave-- that'll show some hope as well"

I wish all libs could be as honest as this trader. He actively wishes for our defeat which i believe almost all in his party...despite their protestations that they really support our troops. They are rooting for our enemies. I bet every time Pelosi hears about a dead soldier in Iraq she smiles to herself. I never thought I'd see it, but people in our own government have given comfort to our enemies around the world for politcal gain. Every time one of these pee brains calls our efforts in the Middle East "George Bushs War" they are basically saying the people that kill our troops are in the right. I'd call that treason.

I also love this little diddi
Royinoslo wrote:

"But it's not so dire as Tony depicts: the Irish vote-- whether you're for or agin', slows down centralization; Obama and Hillary's generation of unbridled enthusiasm among new voters, not to mention Obama's unprecedented small-donor tsunami, are all pluses for democracy."

Yeah a bunch of people with no life experience voting for candidates simply because of catch phrases (hope and change)while the others voted for a candidate because of two X chromesomes. That really really bodes well for the future of democracy. The fact is the fanatasism with which people are rushing to elect our nations first socialist President is by no means a good sign for the future of democracy.

fraggmented...
MRCMRC wrote:

"if history is any teacher you can bet it will be more liberal. keep fighting conservatives , you provid needed comic relief"

Comic relief. I hardly know what to say. Look I get it...you believe in liberalism and feel in is best for society. I may disagree, but you're entitled to your opinion. However, the rank insults you hurl at people with a different point of view is disturbing. Do you not see any validity in our beliefs and arguments? There are many very smart people on both sides of the divide yet you dismiss those that don't share you world view as "comic relief"? I completely agree that liberalism has been on the rise at least a century and I also see that our major cities (who overwhlemingly run by liberals)are in almost total decay. I think liberal thinking has had benefits for our society, but I believe its negatives outway those gains. I think a society without both liberal thinkers and conservative thinkers is in trouble. I think they balance each other out quite well by shaping an evolving a society, but not at the cost of destroying all of its traditions and norms that made it great in the first place.

thoughts on liberalism
I think liberalism can really only exist and thrive in a society where things are so good that people have time to fret and worry over things that aren't central to survival. With that in mind, the more liberal a country slowly becomes is a testament to how well said country is doing. However, eventually it takes such a strong foothold that it begins to ruin what it set out to improve because all perspective becomes lost. I hear people on daily basis complain about how Bush has ruined this country all the while they type on their computers, drive their two cars, and watch their big-screen t.v.'s. When people have no knowledge of true evil and hardship to survive they begin to extoll "evil" on even the most basic of hardships. Liberalism thives when life is easy. However, when (not if) a nuke is detonated on one or more of our major cities and millions are killed whose line of thinking will the people flock to? Conservatism will make a comeback, but I'm affraid not until we suffer such a catastrophy.

spelling correction
I know people love to jump on spelling when they disagree with an argument so let me correct the word "trader" with "traitor" in describing many democrats.

Kudos to Scott
I totally agree brother. I am amazed at how many people are willing to give up their freedoms and let the government do everything for them. I have also long thought that most liberals talk out of both sides of their mouths. They are quite content to run your life and take your freedom away but always find loopholes for themselves.

Democracy is hard work
Democracy is hard work. So is thinking independently and critically.

It is easier to let someone else worry about making decisions; it's ingrained in human nature, especially for children. The adults take care of you, until you can fend for yourself.

Marxism gambles that most people will be happy to remain in that immature state. Our own Left certainly does. Let the state worry about it, you're not responsible for yourself.

Their influence in the media and in education is such that they can push that message 24/7 on an increasingly anaesthetized public. Fewer and fewer of us are willing or able to expend the energy to investigate issues and make up our own minds.

Play your Wii's, watch "Idol", gripe about gas prices without knowing trying to understand the economics behind them. Don't worry-Big Papa State will take care of everything for you.

Just go to sleep.

Hillary delenda est.

In Decline
There are more Billionares and millionares in Russia then there has ever been. China has a billionare and many millionares. Think of all those people who no longer stand in line to get toliet paper or papers to travel anywhere.
In China the haves and have not is still great, but it is those party members children who went to America for an education, saw what people could have and went home and force their goverment to change or perish.
While Russia and China might be far from being a democracy it is no longer what Stalin or Mao would want.

FREE ECONOMIES AND DEMOCRACY
Tony, your observation has merit. However, it is an illusion that the Chinese are doing better economically by their top down central planning. South Korea is an excellent counter example. The "democracies" of western Europe are not democracies, they are socialist states, with very limited futures. Russians think democracies are corrupt only because the only example they have ever seen was incredibly corrupt. The people of South America share that opinion because in their experience, their "democracies" have always been corrupt. None of them has ever experienced a reasonably honest free market.
Even in out country, many business men have decided it is much easier to bribe politicians than it is to achieve success by building a better product for less.
Democracies have several serious flaws. The first is that half of all voters have IQs less than 100. Politicians will always cater to them.
Without a strong constitution guaranteeing individual and property rights, the best example of a democracy in action is merely a lynch mob!
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