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Wednesday, April 23, 2008
Tony Blankley :: Townhall.com Columnist
Rising Euro-Muslim Tensions
by Tony Blankley
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Perhaps the greatest secular gift to the world by Judeo-Christian civilization is its seminal concept of the individual, which it raises above the tribe or the collective. In Genesis, we are told that man is made in the image of God. Deuteronomy tells us that "each human by his own sin is to be judged" and "do not punish children for the sins of their fathers." And of course, the biblical life and teachings of Jesus reflect the deep importance of the individual. Thus was planted in the soil of the West our uniquely heightened respect for the individual.

It is impossible to imagine Western civilization -- and particularly America -- without the existence in our culture of the instinctive respect for the individual to offset the more general human instinct to be subordinated in the tribe or the group.

Conversely, there is no more dangerous incubus inserted into a Western nation than hostility or indifference to the inherent value and rights of the individual.

But radicalized Islam places little value on the individual, while holding up for supreme value the interests of the group, particularly their view of the group called Islam. And it is this aggressive, assertive insistence by radicalized Muslims in the West to subordinate our inherent rights to their collective demands that slowly and more or less quietly is forcing Westerners to take sides in the radicals' demands. The resolution of this developing conflict -- if not managed by the elites in Western countries on behalf of indigenous Western rights -- inevitably will result in unnecessary violence.

A recent example of such intimidation was reported in The Washington Times Monday: Muneer Fareed, head of the Islamic Society of North America, is "demanding" that Sen. John McCain stop using the word "Islamic" to describe terrorists who are radical Islamists. He insists that McCain (and all others) just call Islamic terrorists "criminals." "That is more acceptable to the Muslim community," Fareed said. McCain, being as tough as nails, has said he has no intention of submitting to Fareed's demand and will continue to use "Islamic" to describe Islamic terrorists. But it will be interesting to see what the two Democratic candidates for president choose to do about this demand.

Meanwhile, in Canada, Mark Steyn awaits trial before the Canadian Human Rights Commission and the British Columbia Human Rights Tribunal for the crime of committing hate speech by writing a book and a magazine article that warned against the dangers of Islam overwhelming Europe (No. 1 best-seller in Canada; New York Times best-seller in the United States).

These charges were precipitated by demands for Steyn's prosecution by a band of students, who publicly marched to announce their demands. They claimed that as Muslims, they should have the chance to offer a rebuttal when people like Steyn talk about issues that relate directly to Muslims. "When people feel insulted, they should have recourse," Khaled Mouammar, president of the Canadian Arab Federation, said. Amazingly, the culturally feeble, intimidated Canadian officials promptly filed the criminal charges.

Similarly, a few months ago, the increasing British Muslim demands for Shariah law were answered in the positive by the archbishop of Canterbury. If the British government ever succumbs to that outrageous demand, not only will Muslim women lose their individual rights but also, pursuant to honor killing, principals could be murdered legally by their fathers, husbands or brothers. Already, non-Muslim British are being banned from public swimming pools during time reserved for Muslims. (No other group can reserve such times.)

Forty years ago last weekend, British classicist and politician Enoch Powell warned that if immigrants bringing alien values and customs into Britain are allowed to continue their immigration, a sense of alarm and resentment would develop in the indigenous British population. He was ejected from British politics for giving that warning.

But this week, the BBC published a poll taken precisely to measure public attitudes 40 years after Powell's famous warning (and after 40 years of the British ruling class ignoring the growing danger). Seventy percent think there is high tension between the races; 63 percent expect those tensions to result in violence between the races in Britain; and 60 percent think there are too many "immigrants" in Britain.

In a similar poll taken for the Davos World Economic Forum, stunning numbers of Europeans fear a "threat" from Muslims with whom they "interact": 79 percent of Danes, 67 percent of Italians, 68 percent of Spaniards, 65 percent of Swedes and 59 percent of Belgians.

In my book "The West's Last Chance," published in 2005, I warned that the European people would not be passive in the face of their culture being undercut. Unlike others who wrote on the subject, I did not think Europeans would fail to defend their nations and their cultures. I warned that broad European street violence could be avoided only if their governments took the threat seriously.

These disturbing polls from BBC and Davos should constitute another undeniable warning to the gutless, defeatist European leaders. Take action to protect your people and their cherished Western values, or the people will take matters into their own hands. And for us in America, impending European unrest should be seen as a cautionary tale.

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About The Author
Tony Blankley served as press secretary to then Speaker of the U.S. House of Representatives, Newt Gingrich. Tony Blankley is the author of The West's Last Chance: Will We Win the Clash of Civilizations? .
 
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Amen!
I welcome a revolution in Europe to depose those ivory tower elitists who allow Muslim immigration to replace the current population.

Let American politicians take heed.

Apathy reigns now
Americans are too busy being entertained by television and material luxuries to take note of the Islamic threat now. But like someone wrote recently, when a crisis comes, attitudes change fast. The sudden intrusion of reality has a way of clearing the mind. When times are easy, we obsess over the welfare of the polar bear in the arctic, but when people get hungry, the question quickly becomes, "Are they edible?" From obsessing over the sensitivities of Muslims, when the pushing and shoving starts, Muslims look out. Remember Verdun, Iwo Jima, and Hiroshima. Western Civilization, when aroused, can be lethal to its enemies (and itself: viz. Verdun).

On the other hand, Americans may just be too softened now by easy living and the resulting political correctness to be capable of self-defense anymore. Only time will tell if we still have the right stuff.

If we don't have any fight left in us, well, let's see what's in the TV Guide when we're living under the Caliphate, and it will also be interesting to see how women politicians like Hillary Clinton and Nancy Pelosi, as well as members of the homosexual lobby, fare under Muslim rule (the last homosexual muslim I saw in the news was dangling by the neck from a crane in Iran). Muslims seem to rather lack sensitivity toward "diversity."

Excellent post, Jaybird
You're right. At some point in America, push will come to shove. Or not. It will indeed be interesting to see if our collective courage is strong enough to repel the assault on our freedoms and ideals.

Tony writes:
Perhaps the greatest secular gift to the world by Judeo-Christian civilization is its seminal concept of the individual, which it raises above the tribe or the collective. In Genesis, we are told that man is made in the image of God. Deuteronomy tells us that "each human by his own sin is to be judged" and "do not punish children for the sins of their fathers." And of course, the biblical life and teachings of Jesus reflect the deep importance of the individual. Thus was planted in the soil of the West our uniquely heightened respect for the individual.
------
A truth worth fighting, and dying if one must, to preserve.

I read some years ago and forgot the author's name about this subject.

His base of thought was in this scripture:

Matthew 27:
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom;

Point being, Jesus Christ has His Offering to God has made access to God for every man.
And not just to the High Priests as it had been under the Law of Moses.

Now every man can go directly to God for himself, through Jesus Christ, not some Priest.

Talk about a RIGHT, this one is worth keeping whatever cost it takes.

And Daniel, the first American, I smile thinking of him and how the Founders of America viewed the Kings commandments just alike.

Would not bow to the King's unlawful commandments, but Honored God over the King.

Rising Tensions
It's becoming all too real, we're already experiancing caliphatt, oops, I mean caliphate-like processes.
At Hah-vud, muslim women have special gym hours, no other group has that, there are footbaths in the Minneapolis/St. Paul airport and some public schools don't teach the Holocaust as part of history, because it's traumatic to young Hassan Nasrallah Jr.'s. In no uncertain terms, Mahmoud Ahamadinejad told them that the Holocaust never happened, and has an annual conference to substantiate his stealth Holocaust fact findings so to the average Muslim it is true.
There is a Muslim Congressman for the first time in history who, get this, was sworn in on the Koran.
And finally who can forget praying Imam's on a plane.
We need to sustain a heightened vigilance, these little skirmishes will become more frequent and eventually get messy.

Rising Tensions
It's becoming all too real, we're already experiancing caliphatt, oops, I mean caliphate-like processes.
At Hah-vud, muslim women have special gym hours, no other group has that, there are footbaths in the Minneapolis/St. Paul airport and some public schools don't teach the Holocaust as part of history, because it's traumatic to young Hassan Nasrallah Jr.'s. In no uncertain terms, Mahmoud Ahamadinejad told them that the Holocaust never happened, and has an annual conference to substantiate his stealth Holocaust fact findings so to the average Muslim it is true.
There is a Muslim Congressman for the first time in history who, get this, was sworn in on the Koran.
And finally who can forget praying Imam's on a plane.
We need to sustain a heightened vigilance, these little skirmishes will become more frequent and eventually get messy.

Islamic Ideology Within Our Borders
According to a study released by Pew Research Center:

- 7% of U.S. Muslims under 30 indicated favorable view to al Qaeda;

- 26% of U.S. Muslims under 30 answered "Yes" to the pollsters question: "Can Suicide Bombing of Civilian Targets to Defend Islam be Justified?"

- 60% of the Muslim Americans "do not believe Arab men carried out the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001."

Think! One in four younger U.S. Muslims say suicide bombings of Civilian Targets to defend their religion are acceptable at least in some circumstances, a poll says.

"It is a hair-raising number," said Radwan Masmoudi, president of the Washington-based Center for the Study of Islam and Democracy, which promotes the compatibility of Islam with democracy.
Source: http://pewresearch.org/assets/pdf/muslim-americans.pdf

See also: The Enemy Within: Hot Summer ...
http://conservativevalley.blogtownhall.com/default.aspx?mod e=post&g=8cccee19-73a0-4789-8fa9-6f4852ec0f15

Tony
Another excellent warning, Tony. I don't know who's listening, but keep talking!!

You have to wonder...
what elite politicians in the west are up to. There's no way they give a damn about third world aliens. There must be a reason they would sell out their country, its culture and its grandchildren and allow third world trash to infiltrate like a virus. There must be a reason they would do that.

I'm sure that there were people like Geraldo and Lindsay Graham in England 40 years ago calling patriots bigots. Somehow, to idiots like that, preserving heritage and culture is racist. I wonder what the people of England think about the bigots now?


Recent elections
If recent elections in Europe are any indication Europe may be waking up. The fact that the Dutch have combat troops in Afghanistan depite the large muslim population in Holland is encouraging. People in America will wake up after a mall or school is bombed and their little darlings are buried under a pile of rubble. Americans are slow to react much like the frog being boiled but once we react there is no stopping us. The real solution is for "moderate" muslims to take a stand against this. If that doesn't take place there may well be violence. One more thing on our side is the second ammendment. Our last line of defense is the armed citizen.

rightviewpoint
I just wonder how many Muslims we have living among us already. An official with the local sheriff's department recently confided to me that the general population would be very surprised to know how many we have. That, and we see them everywhere, so his remarks really make me wonder. How many of them wish us ill?

I would vote for any politician who is in favor of ending ALL Muslim immigration to this country, plus a thorough vetting of any who are here already.

Why do we need Muslims? All they contribute to the world are misery and oil, and someone else had to make the oil possible and necessary. They are without doubt the most worthless humans on the face of the earth. If they are faced with oppression where they are, let them deal with it there. We don't need them and all the problems that come with them.

rightviewpoint
I just wonder how many Muslims we have living among us already. An official with the local sheriff's department recently confided to me that the general population would be very surprised to know how many we have. That, and we see them everywhere, so his remarks really make me wonder. How many of them wish us ill?

I would vote for any politician who is in favor of ending ALL Muslim immigration to this country, plus a thorough vetting of any who are here already.

Why do we need Muslims? All they contribute to the world are misery and oil, and someone else had to make the oil possible and necessary. They are without doubt the most worthless humans on the face of the earth. If they are faced with oppression where they are, let them deal with it there. We don't need them and all the problems that come with them.

Too late
Not much we can or will do about them now. They are here in numbers too great to turn back now. Look to Dearborn, Michigan or Lewiston, Maine as a sample of what to expect. Expect further Balkanization as they not only DO NOT assimilate and contribute; they are FORBIDDEN TO assimilate and contribute.

The real problem, however, is that by our embrace of secularism we have created a cultural vacuum that allows and encourages parasitic cultures to prey on the dying carcass. Islam is but one of many tearing at the fabric of a once vibrant and strong body politic.

Who's crazy idea was it to think that mass importation of a 7th century death-cult into a culturally confused West would result in benefits to either?


Articles like this...
...should be published every day in the Western World.

Bit by Bit, the Islamic Horde is gaining ground.

Better wake up people!

And now the "peaceful" Mooslims (sic) want to replace GMT with "Mecca" time. Here's your link:

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/020750.php

Keep your powder dry Americans...the Europeans don't seem to want to fight the Horde.

Mark Stein
Mark Steyn points out in his excellent book 'America Alone' that, demographically, Muslims will soon be majority populations in many European countries due to simple birth rates which are much higher among Muslims than among native Europeans. Once you have Muslim majorities Sharia law won't be far behind. As regards "moderate" Muslims, Mr. Steyn draws parallels with "moderate" Christians who stood by while the Nazis came to power in Germany. It's amazing to me that Mr. Steyn is now facing charges in Canada for writing the truth about Islam. What can they be thinking up there?

We need an ACJLU ...
... (that's American Christian & Jewish Liberties Union) to resist the ongoing pressure to give preference to aspects of Sharia law and Muslim practices in the U.S.

The Europeans aren't the only ones caving to Muslim pressure, and areas of our country (Michigan, Minnesota, Northern Virginia, etc.) are giving in to the Muslims, little by little. But I believe we still have a majority in the U.S. that is not politically correct and can defeat the Muslim initiatives with a coordinated effort.

Look in the mirror first!
Part 1

Oh lordy here we go again. Euro-bashing. From over here, in the UK, I know why you do it. Its to make you americans feel better.

You loooove to comment on a world that 99% of you have no clue about. Most of you have no passports and have never seen any other soil than your own.

Having been to the states dozens of times, I can attest that even your international news, contains very little international news. So you don't know.

Lets go through the mass of assertions. But first a question; you lot do know that Europe isn't one amorphous mass of lowest level culture like your states under one country the US, don't you?

Europe is a collection of different countries, peoples, languages, cultures, religions (unfortunately) and richness.

Unlike you, I won;t speak for the rest of Europe because I haven't been to every country. I suggest that is a lesson you learn. However as a European I can at least comment with some knowledge.

Look in the mirror first!
Part 2

You say " the increasing British Muslim demands for Shariah law were answered in the positive by the archbishop of Canterbury". Im assuming you mean "Muslims" rather than one large Muslim. There is no large movement for Shariah Law here. Yes some Muslims (remembering that they are a tiny minority of the population), want it. But the Archbishop was proffering that shariah be used in minor infractions like divorce and only in muslim courts.

That is what a free society does, it allows people to say these things. You DID NOT report that he was condemed and vilified by all parties and peoples here for sayinf that. so much so he had to explain himself.

Just because someone says something, doesnt make it so. You do know that don't you?

The public swimming pool incident also was condemned. You cannot extrapolate a silly incident conserning a foolish local council department with British Law. Its chalk and cheese.

Look in the mirror first!
Part 3

You say that its impossible to imagine Western societies without the importance of the individual. Absolutely agree with you. Unfotunately your column and many of the people posting comments show you don' really believe that.

Poster "sawdust" being the best example of "western tolerance", by stating "Why do we need Muslims? All they contribute to the world are misery and oil". Adolf Hitler would be proud of that one!

Me, I could the same for you right wing christians; "All you contribute to the world are misery and oil". Of and illegally invading countries and killing innocent civilians, sorry lets use the denial verbiage you use: collateral damage.

You country is already under the iron hand of right with christian facism. and you have the temerity to point the finger at us! Muslims believe in stoning women and stone age laws. You believe in creationism and a book written by pre-science simple folk 2 thousand years ago. You are both the problem so don't be so superior about muslims.

I despair sometimes. The sooner we grow up as a race and start evolving and cast off this ludicrous religious idiocy, then and only then can we move forward into the future.

But let me leave you with the thought that as we are a growing secular society over here, and thank goodness for that, we are much less likely to be hijacked by some daft religion than you are.

Look in the mirror first!
Part 3

You say that its impossible to imagine Western societies without the importance of the individual. Absolutely agree with you. Unfotunately your column and many of the people posting comments show you don' really believe that.

Poster "sawdust" being the best example of "western tolerance", by stating "Why do we need Muslims? All they contribute to the world are misery and oil". Adolf Hitler would be proud of that one!

Me, I could the same for you right wing christians; "All you contribute to the world are misery and oil". Of and illegally invading countries and killing innocent civilians, sorry lets use the denial verbiage you use: collateral damage.

You country is already under the iron hand of right with christian facism. and you have the temerity to point the finger at us! Muslims believe in stoning women and stone age laws. You believe in creationism and a book written by pre-science simple folk 2 thousand years ago. You are both the problem so don't be so superior about muslims.

I despair sometimes. The sooner we grow up as a race and start evolving and cast off this ludicrous religious idiocy, then and only then can we move forward into the future.

But let me leave you with the thought that as we are a growing secular society over here, and thank goodness for that, we are much less likely to be hijacked by some daft religion than you are.

Idopas
Well, do we really have the time to wait and see if secular culture will convert Jihadists into mall rats?

The gathering storm.

This may take a while, but the writing is already on the wall.

Europe will bleed... and in our life time.

In what form this will happen, is still unclear. The European psyche is ideology driven and still more about negotiation than confrontation. Their unwillingness to recognise and deal with the concept of evil will only prolong the inevitable and most likely make matters worse.

But when multi-culturalism and relativism is so deeply inbedded in their values, the price will be high. Many will relocate, but others who stay will not like what they see.

I do not advocate violence, but if the radical element of Islam ever gain a foothold in the institutions of the continent... this could get really ugly.

Idopas...
...is a liberal, long-winded, athesist, appeaser.

Precisely what is wrong with Europe!

Idopas
I wonder if Europeans had the same "enlightened" idealogy about the Nazis in 1935 as you seem to have toward Islam?

But let not your heart be troubled, when it all hits the skids we may come to save your collective butts again. . . after all it is a new century and remember America's foreign policy allows at least 2 wars (and milliions of OUR soldier's lives) to save Europe every 100 years.

To Gnome Sane
Haven't a clue what your reply means. See we secularists aren't into conversion. That is the realm of the religion. That is your language, not mine.

Jihadists, religious right wing christians and mall rats are all of the same ilk. A big problem for the rest of us.

We have the brains to know that religion has NO place in government, policy making or evolving as a species.

Cold Hard Truth
You forgot "in denial".

scottK
Have you ever been to Europe. I suspect not.

You talk as if we are all one people. We arent. Can you not get that?

So saying that "multi-culturalism and relativism is so deeply inbedded" is idiotic.

We are different nations.

I know you ignorant americans can't handle looking at the differences and like lumping us all in together. Intellectual laziness.

Cold Hard Truth
Athesist? Living with dyslexia must be hard, you have my condolences.

beyond the pale
Ah that moronic and incorrect insult again.

The Brits were the only ones to stand up to Hitler in the first place. You cowardly stayed over there until you had no choice. So rather than "proudly" beat your drum I would be ashamed is I were you.

Our record for standing against facism is much better than yours.

But I love you belief that you will be able to do anything in 100 years. Or 10. Your economy is going down the toilet, fact. Even in the global recession ours is predicted to be 3%, Europe 1.8%, yours 0.4%. Sub prime is killing you and there is no way back.

Soon you will be looking to Europe and Oceania for help. Lets hope we treat you in a better way than the pomposity you hand out to the rest of the world. We will, we have class.

Answering posters.

It has been my practice to rarely answer posters.

Especially if they get into belligerent name-calling, insults, liberal drivel and ad hominem attacks.

Today's poster child is Idopas.

The chances of me replying to this poster... somewhere between zero and none.

Idopas
Yes, I know.

"When the overwhelming scourge passes through, it will not touch us."

I agree with you concerning the prognosis of our situation; I disagree with your analysis of yours.

What is interesting
Re. Mark Steyn - whether or not you agree with what he writes or think it's crap, I thought in Western countries we valued free thought and free expression? I realize Canada doesn't have the equivalent of our 1st Amendment, but still... Steyn's treatment gives us shades of "1984". Are the thought police far behind?

As far as immigrants - people from all over the world have come to the West and assimilated just fine. Muslims, from all over, seem to be different. A survey of immigrants from the Indian subcontinent to the UK, for example, showed that while Hindus, Sikhs, Jains, etc., had all assimilated into British culture by the 2nd generation, Muslims had not. The unemployment rates among the non-Muslims was lower than among the British population as a whole, but the rates for the Muslims was much higher.

Looking at the Indian subcontinent itself - in majority Hindu India, there are Sikh, Jain and Buddhist temples, thriving Christian communities and small Zoroastrian and Jewish populations as well as Muslims. In Muslim-majority Pakistan, there are very few non-Muslims and the government turns a blind eye when these groups are prosecuted.

I'm not saying all Muslims are bad - in fact, the majority I have met are decent people. However, for whatever reason, Islam, historically and culturally, seeks to dominate and control non-Muslims. Remember that when Muhammad took his prophecies to a village, if they rejected them, his response was to return with an army and conquer that village, killing the men and enslaving the women. Compare that with Jesus' response to people who refused to listen to his teachings - he told his disciples to leave that village behind, wiping the dust from their feet.

Idopas
LMFAO!!!!!
Britain stood up to Hitler!!! HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Yeah right---after they bent over backward trying to appease him. How many meetings and treaties did they sign with him before he started bombing? Sure you stood up to him. . .only when you were forced into reality and his armies were marching all over the continent.

Yes, and we did stay out (in WWII) because we had a Democrat president who was bilking the Brits for every pound they had selling them the technology they needed to defend themselves. He was not listening to the people who wanted to get there sooner. It was a pretty big debate among the Americans. And as you say we are a diverse people, can you not separate the government from the people. . .how intellectually lazy of you.

And looking to Europe for help. . .Classic. . . but you're right Europe does have more "class" yah got me on that one. To bad bravery, self-sacrifice, and Independance aren't included in Europe's list of characteristics, but you got CLASS.
We'll give you a call when we need your help with our economy. . .but don't wait up Idopas.

Shefali writes:
> A survey of immigrants from the Indian
> subcontinent to the UK, for example, showed
> that while Hindus, Sikhs, Jains, etc., had
> all assimilated into British culture by the
> 2nd generation, Muslims had not.

I am a 2nd generation Muslim in the West as are many of my friends and I disagree. Most 2nd generation Muslims fit in without notice.

> Remember that when Muhammad took his
> prophecies to a village, if they rejected
> them, his response was to return with an
> army and conquer that village, killing the
> men and enslaving the women.

Are you just making things up or are you a victim of brainwashing? What you have just stated is a lie.
--
Peace,
S Virk


No Doubt About It
Political correctness on this issue can literally be the death of the West. Ironically, it is political correctness (read "blindness") that will bring things to a head. The result will, in fact, be violent confrontation. The only way to avoid this is for Europe---and for the people on this side of the Atlantic---to wake up, recognize the threat and have the balls to believe that Western civilization is worth preserving.

beyond the pale
There is little point engaging you in argument. Because your lack of any grasp of history and facts is only overtaken by your rabid right wing jingoism that has little place in reality.

Bravery? Like fighting Hitler on our own for two years before anyone came to help. Being that we are about the size of Maryland I think that is the very definition of bravery.

Again you show your stupidity and ignorance of lumping in Europe together. Im British, Im talking about Britain. Bravery, self sacrifice and class define us. Maybe not the French, certainly not YOU. But we can hold our heads up.

But thanks for the giggle you gave me with the drum beating about your economy. Listening you boast proudly whilst all the figures, indicators show otherwise, is very funny. Denial or stupidity, Im not sure which it is, but they're both funny thanks for the laugh.

scottK
"It has been my practice to rarely answer posters.@

Who the hell do you think you are, Ghandi?

But I understand. You post ignorance, but don;t like it being challenged.

In a mental gunfight you are unarmed, so I agree its probably best you keep clear of arguments.

Ignorance doesnt like debate.

beyond the pale writes:
> I wonder if Europeans had the
> same "enlightened" idealogy about the
> Nazis in 1935 as you seem to have
> toward Islam?

The Nazi's were an ideology driven, violent and united group representing a military and industrial powerhouse, Germany.

Muslims are not united and are splintered into many groups and sects who spend more time bickering with and fighting each other than anyone else. There is no military or industrial powerhouse among the Muslim nations, not even if they all got togerher and combined their resources. Al Qaeda or any other numerically insignificant, violent and ideology driven group of terrorists among the Muslims have little to none at all military and industrial power. Are these groups going to defeat or overcome the power of the West? A bunch of slippered fanatics running about in the boonies of Afghanistan is cause for such hand wringing and moaning about the end of the American way of life? Pathetic.
Why are the paranoid and poorly educated extreme right wing nuts in America so afraid? Because it gives them an excuse to spread hatred and their own violence.
--
Peace,
S Virk



Gnome Sane
Well if you disagree, lets hear your argument.

Saying you disagree and not saying why is wasting everyones time.

Ive no problem with a debate/argument. Hell you may have some great points I find hard to argue against. But for now, you've given me nothing, except to say you don;t agree! Great.

Perversion of the west
Is seen in this affair about Mark Steyn, and who can deny it is the Government itself doing the perversion using the muslims.



Tony writes:
These charges were precipitated by demands for Steyn's prosecution by a band of students, who publicly marched to announce their demands. They claimed that as Muslims, they should have the chance to offer a rebuttal when people like Steyn talk about issues that relate directly to Muslims. "When people feel insulted, they should have recourse," Khaled Mouammar, president of the Canadian Arab Federation, said. Amazingly, the culturally feeble, intimidated Canadian officials promptly filed the criminal charges.
---------

Couple things leaps off the page.

1.Muslims, "they should have the chance to offer a rebuttal"

Who is stopping them?
No one is
They do not else with their time but 'rebut', and hardly convincing.

2.Muslims. "When people feel insulted, they should have recourse,"

He is in the process of a recourse in this very statment.
No one is stopping him from having his say.
His problem is, no one is falling for his line

He insults me, and my recourse for that is to tell him I think he is a liar.

He insults all free mens intelligence with his whining insults against freedom of speech.

3. Tony writes:
"intimidated Canadian officials promptly filed the criminal charges."

Intentionally creating chaos so th recognition of the freedoms of the individual can be openly attacked by the criminal government.

Criminal Government? Yes
Government is bringing FALSE CHARGES against this man Steyn.
Knowingly they are false.
It fits their agenda, to stop recognizing individuals rights.
It is the same thing throughout the history of the world used by all tyrants.
Using the "law" itself unlawfully against individuals


dws
At last a good post!

Completely agree. Most of the posters here can;t stop banging their jingoistic drums to actually see that the west share the same issues and challenges.

But the first question is, what is the challenge. To me its religious extremism; whether that is islamists blowing up shopping centres of right wing christians bombins middle eastern countries.

Religions, cults and sects are the big issue.

EXACTLY
Jaybird,
Thanks for saying what alot of us are thinking and discussing among ourselves.
Churchill noted that the longer one puts off dealing with impending mortal threats, it becomes more costly in time, treasure and blood to save yourself from that threat.
So some added questions. Since Europe has a 54,000,000 man foreign army ALREADY in their countries, WILL they fight? And since the Europeans keep waiting, will they require more American blood to help free them?
BTW, go see Stonehenge while you can; under Sharia law, it will be knocked down as an insult to Islam.

svirk
Great post. Completely agree!

You ask:
"Why are the paranoid and poorly educated extreme right wing nuts in America so afraid?"

Lets see if we can get the answer: Gnome Sane, beyond the pale, scottK, sawdust...you fit this description. Care to give us an answer?

Quit showing your ignorance
11:10 AM
scottK
"It has been my practice to rarely answer posters.@


ldopas writes:
Ignorance doesnt like debate.
---------
Then
He may debate you, once he sees something to debate and not your stupid arguments.
So far you have said nothing worth debate, just smart eleck and stupid remarks at posters.
Quit being so stupid if you want a debate

Idopas - Typically Arrogant European
Idopas,
I lived in your precious Europe in the 1980s…protecting you and the rest of your pals from the Soviet Union. Does that qualify me to opine on your asinine comments? I visited the American cemeteries all across Europe and was deeply moved by the tens of thousand of Americans that gave their lives to free Europeans. I have yet to visit a cemetery in the United States that is filled with British citizens who died to save America. I doubt I ever will. Hide behind your little computer there in “Great” Britain and lob insults at America. The next time we come to save your backsides, and, that day will come... try not to be so pompous and arrogant when you say thanks.

none
STOP lumping us all together. Cant you lot get that through your thick heads.

Britain has a large army and sends them around the world to do the worlds dirty work.

How dare you intimate that because there are US troopson mainland Europe, Britain wont fight.

Our record of defending rights are way better than yours.

What then?
Also, what happens to the rest of the world when, for example, France or England capitulates to the Muslims in their country, and then they have control over nuclear weapons and their various delivery systems?
Nuclear intimidation?
Obliterate a few cities to convince everyone else to surrender to Islam and Sharia law?

EnoughAlready!
You are completely delusional.

If you really think you were in europe to defend us, you clearly are a politically .

You were there to ensure US interests. Like you are now pretending (with us) to be freeing Iraq whilst its really about oil.

The US have NEVER done anything except in self interest. If you think otherwise then you are deluding yourself.

To just talk about american deaths in the war, when the russians lost far more than you is just insulting. If you ask anyone who actually is a real soldier, ie was in WW2, they will tell you of whatever nationality, that they were fighting TOGETHER and dying togethe to defeat facism.

You unfortunately, are of the 1980s military variety. Sent to cushy posts, never seeing a shot fired.

Its ludicrous to ask how many europeans dies on US soil, because you, and I'll say this slowly because Ive already said it many times here and it aint sinking in, ARE ONE COUNTRY. so why would there be a war in the US? Europe is many countries with different issues religions and animosities. You just dont seem to be getting that!

Idopas
You are misstaken when you assume that I am arguing with you, I REALLY don't care what you believe. You won't change my mind, and I won't change yours. Just look at it as comfirming your beliefs in America as dimwitted thugs.

But I do enjoy encouraging people's stereotypical behavior. You came through with flying colors---insulting Americans with class, and forgetting that Britain has perpetrated some of the worst ethnic cleansing (Scottland, Ireland), imperialism (South Africa, India, etc.), and out and out crimes against humanity. How many people died as slaves under the flag of British Colonialism? Hail Britainia indeed. Exactly when did the Brits stop trying to take over the world? Was it when you found out that looking down on America was a fun distraction from your own guilt over your own centuries of bloodshed? Or did you guys just get lazy?

talent scout
My stupid arguments?

When you yanks are posting detritis about my country being taken over by sharia law when its complete bull. Where is your evidence, save a stupid statement by the Archbishop which he had to apologise for after a torrent of criticism?

When you post the most right wing and ignorant anti-muslim bull.

When you continually refer to Europe as if its one country. Probably the most stupid thing here.

I know why you single me out. Because Im not american and I dont hold that the US is a paragon of all good in the world. Quite the opposite.

All Government evil has come from Europe
Nazism
Communism
Fascism
Royalty
Slavery
Colonialism
Diversity
Socialism
Globalism
War
Let the muslims have it, they will just continue the ways already given to the world from Europe anyway, just under a false religion.
Do the arrogant fools good

Idopas- You're Wrong...Again
Idopas,
The only “cushy” aspect of my military duty in Europe was the many European women I “befriended” while I was there. Funny, they all said the same thing…most European men were not very manly. The greatness of America has been demonstrated over and over again. Ever heard of the Marshall plan? Without it, Europe would not be where it is today. You mentioned that America is in decline. I must agree with that statement. We are in a decline because we have allowed millions of peasants from the third world to enter our country illegally for about 25 years. Still, America remains the greatest nation on earth. We will NEVER allow ourselves to be subject to Sharia. As for you, it will happen in your lifetime.

beyond the pale
Nice. Conveniently forgetting people subhuman attacks on Britain when we lost millions fighting facism alone for two years etc.

Slavery? You were as culpable as us. However you forget it was us who banned the slave trade. You carried it on. Oops.

I think you need to go look on the net, do some reading, talk to people in south america, asia, middle east. You'll soon see who people regard in number one position for evil in the world. A clue...its not us!

svirk
You are correct---Islam is not like Hitler. I'm just having fun with "sir snooty pants" Idopas.

I would answer you with most Americans are cautious, because at what point can these radical splinter groups come together? What happens if they do come up with a unifying leader who realizes that they are in a political position to have vast amounts of power in Europe? What then? We have seen the measure of the radical wing's resolve, they blow up their own children, they are complete unkown, there is nothing they won't do, how can we have a plan for that? Do you have the answer? Because I don't and that is what worries me.

Like I care what some euro
Thinks?
ha ha

Sleep on, dummy
You want insults? Stick around
Its all you are here for it appears to me
-----------

ldopas writes: 11:47 AM
talent scout
My stupid arguments?

When you yanks are posting detritis about my country being taken over by sharia law when its complete bull.
----------
This shows you are a COMPLETE MORON
ldopas writes:
"You country is already under the iron hand of right with christian facism. and you have the temerity to point the finger at us! Muslims believe in stoning women and stone age laws."

You sir/madam are a genuine, blue ribbon IDIOT.

EnoughAlready!
Oh europe europe europe. Europe is a region. Stop going on about it and actually say what country you were in? If you remember through all the booze. To say that a Brit is the same as a Serb, is like me saying you are exactly like a Peruvian. Its idiotic.

The Marshall Plan wasnt some altruistic action taken by the US, but if you had a clue about history which you dont, was to rebuild Europe to form a buffer to the Soviets.

The rest of your post is so amusingly stoneage in tone and lack of facts its given me the best laugh of the afternoon.

Still I will add, not that you will get it, that religion in ANY form doesnt play a part in our politics. Unlike the US. So sharia is never coming here. You however are already in the grip of the right wing religious zealots. Most of you believe in creationism, I dont need to say much more throught the tears of laughter.

You really need to stop buying the politicians lines and learn to read behind the headlines they feed you. Your own great comedian Bill Hicks called americans the "puppet people". I can;t better that!

talent scout
Nice list.

Still a country ruled by a moron like Bush and whose people believe in creationism give me the last laugh. Checkmate.

Idopas
You might have banned "slave trade"---but slavery comes in many forms. So in the human rights department, and stealing the wealth of other nations I would say Britain still leads the pack. And you are right the Brits have that classy accent and good PR department so the world just LOOOOOOOOVES them.

talent scout
And your point is what?

You just threw a personal insult, calling me a moron. the base of your argument is that I dare to say that its not true that we are being taken over by sharia you have no facts because there arent any.

You however ARE run by people who constantly reference a mythical being for guidance.

And Im the moron? I think you may find its the other way around.

I really like Mark Steyn
“I think a healthy society needs both God and guns: it benefits from a belief in some kind of higher purpose to life on earth, and it requires a self-reliant citizenry. If you lack either of those twin props, you wind up with today’s Europe—a present-tense Eutopia mired in fatalism.” —Mark Steyn

He just nails it all, so eloquently.

As far as slavery in America, all brought here by European slave traders operating out of England, Spain and Portugal, it was the British who make it all "legal" here in 1705.

And it cost American blood to rid the west of this sin.
Cost to the British?
Nothing but words.
Big mouths is about all they got left, like Idope-a-ropa here

Its ACCURATE
ldopas writes: 12:05 PM
talent scout
Nice list.

Still a country ruled by a moron like Bush and whose people believe in creationism give me the last laugh. Checkmate.
------
scott was right
You are way to stupid to waste time with.

Go back to your rug
And kiss mohammed's followers that rule your own land now, you deserve them all

Idopas - Wrong Again
Idopas,
I realize I’m just some boorish uneducated American but, answer this oh intellectual giant. If the Marshall Plan was designed as a buffer against the Soviet Union, why was the plan offered to the Soviet Union as well? By the way, British Foreign Secretary, Ernest Bevin, was the first to jump at the plan. No surprise there. Billions of free U.S. dollars! Let me tell you who is boorish. Britains. With your bland food and pomposity. My time in England really was a boor. Now, go have some tea and crumpets and stick your head back in the sand. I’m sure you’re going to look great in a Burka.

Chill. Out.
Apparently another notable gift of Judeo-Christian civilization was the ability to spend sixty-plus posts thumping our chests and throwing poop at each other.
Why don't we all take a deep breath?

I agree that we should maintain our liberal-democratic system of law, regardless of the religion of the people to which it applies. For half of TH's posting population, however, this idea is apparently accompanied by appalling xenophobia. Islam! Booga booga booga!
Idopas is correct in that the situation is far more complicated (and probably less immediately dire) than Blankley makes it out to be, but he accompanies it with petty digs at Americans in general that absolutely guarantee that no one will listen to him.

Class? Both sides here have completely forsaken that particular virtue.

Yes, Islam is different from Christianity. Welcome to comparative religion. The idea that it is incompatible with any form of functional Western civilization, though, is shortsighted and will only make things worse. We need not yield our liberties because certain Islamists say so, but let's not paint them all with the same brush, hmm?

Liberalism
This is the ultimate price for for indulging in the religion of "diversity" and multiculturalism. In the Left's efforts to force all of us to live together peacefully they overlooked human nature and by their ignorant actions, policies, and beliefs they have set the stage for war or conquest. Liberalism is the greatest danger the world faces.

I see the U.K. has just banned
any teachings about the Holocaust in the public schools, so as not to offend Muslims. What next in that once proud nation?

Nyarlathotep
Good points--but in my defense, Idopas threw the first round of poo--hehehehe.

But, with all seriousness in your opinion what point do you think that Islam is not compatible with Western Civilization? I, personally, have no problem with Muslims praying 5 times a day, or worshipping in mosques. But I draw the line at people of the Muslim faith being allowed to practice their religion in the workplace, when other faiths are forbidden to do so. For example: At our public Library a Muslim (1) employee emailed (without managment's permission) all other eployees on the reasons and traditions of Rahmadon (sp?)and was praised for his essay. But, when Christian employees (5) tried to circulate an email about the reasons and traditions of Easter they were given neggative marks on their employee files for not passing their essay through management, made to appologize, and threatened never to do it again, or face firing. I read both essays and neither mentioned any other religion, nor anything offensive in the sense of violence, nor anything along the lines of proselatizing.

I also have a problem with the use of force against wackos in Texas (FLDS) but not the use of force against similar wackos in Muslim compounds in upstate NY. Why the special treatment? Why the kidd gloves? Do we consider FLDS compounds a threat to Western Civilization but not Muslim compounds?

RISING EURO-MUSLIM TENSIONS
Idopas, WRONG. I am an American and proud of it, I have a passport, I have traveled the U.S. extensively, I have a university degree and a Masters degree. I am published I lecture I was in Europe and the Middle East. You are muddeled full of vim vigor and happily for you vitality and energy. Quick in name calling and jumping to conclusions makes slim and trim. Your blanket statements just that, blank statements without foundations. AKA Yellow journalism. Selective memories do not make good foundations for any argument. Your postings are a total of "he said" "she said" or "he hit me first after she hit me first" yes, an oxymoron. Sharia law is invasive, danerous and growing. It is felt in subtle ways throughout the Pacific Northwest of the U.S. (ever been there? Specifically, Seattle, WA - that's in the U.S. and Vancouver B.C - that's Canada). If we permit Sharia law to creep into our airports and university with intent to appease a minimal religion, why aren't other people's religious beliefs observed and catered to? Why? Because no one makes as much noise as the fanatic Muslims who give the moderate voiced Muslims smiling saying under the veil of moderation: "they are speaking loudly enough for us, we don't have to do a thing." Not too far removed from Nazism or Communism. Any "ism" is a dangerous beast and should be checked at the door. Hasn't WWII taught us anything? What about Uganda? Khmer Rouge in Cambodia? Nothing? Darfaur? Huh? The civil war in Iraq, I know, it is not called civil war, but it is. Think things out and you will find that today's Muslim fanatics are 12th Century hoodlums with 21st Century triggers. And that spells danger in every civilized language.

Y-Not.

Beyond the Pale
I think we're confusing two issues here
(1) The fundamental compatibility of Islam with liberal democracy
(2) Unjust double standards of religion

Note that your two examples both concern (2). Management's reaction (at the library) was indeed unjust; they should (imho) permit circulations of useful, informative email on all sorts of subjects. If they ban email about one religion, they should ban email on both.
That does not mean that your Muslim coworker did something fundamentally uncivilized; it means that your boss doesn't understand basic fairness.

I don't know much about the NY compounds, but I'd give much the same reply: If, indeed, there is legal justification to raid Muslim compounds as well, then the Feds should.

In both cases, by definition, you are pointing out similarity between Muslims and Christians, not completely irreparable differences.

islam is incompatable with the west
That is not to say individual muslims cannot adapt to the west.
But the koran is in direct conflict with every value of the west.
Do it all depends on much of the koran some muslims believes in.
They can go either way, as the book was written by a man gave lip service to peace, all the while planning conquest.

The true faith of islam is imperialism.

Bringing the world under subjection to their State run religion.
Incompatible ideas directly from their 'prophet'.

Now, for you who do not understand the argument, and what it is all about, just hearing some to do about it all, go learn what mohammed taught before you think muslims are here to join the west in our values.

They never go to any nation but to evangelize their imperialism and rule over all under islam.
Just the way it is.

Ignorance Across the Board
I truely have enjoyed reading the tit-for-tat postings but the unmistakeable truth is that many Muslim people do not like to assimilate.

On an individual basis people tend to assimilate into another culture as best as they can. However, when there is large-scale migration that involves whole villages or large numbers of people from the same area, they tend to continue living as they did before the move. It's much harder to assimilate, and there really isn't an incentive to do so when everyone around you speaks the same language, has the same customs and culture, eats the same foods, etc.

It's human nature to think you know what's best. When enough people are together and share the same ideas, it's inevitable that the group will push for concessions. Sharia Law is one such example. It's happened in Canada and in isolated areas elsewhere.

Yes, agreed
I usually don't compare the two--they are apples and oranges until you dig deeper and find it happening in a consistant manner, and then it becomes just plain fruit.
The question becomes why are we treating people unequally when it comes to this one religion? What are we scared of? Isn't that in itself the very undermining one of principles of western civ. (equality under the law) we are talking about? In both cases religous groups have chosen to ignore said laws and/or rules, and in both examples one religion is favored over another. Again why?
My opinion is that radical Islam is an unknown, they do not act in a predictable manner--we never know what will offend them and cause them to kill. So we tread on egg shells and give all practicing Muslims more rights than they should be afforded under our laws and societal rules in hopes that they will not turn to radical Islam. But in so doing are we not weakening our own ideals?

And this is a minor point, but America is not a liberal democracy, it is a constitutional republic. There are many things within the religion of Islam that dissagree with, and are completely incompatible with the Constitution.

Nyarlathotep
What you fail to understand is the history of Islam. Everyone loves to talk about the eeeeeevil Crusades (though I don't consider them Christian - but that's another post for another time). But those evil acts of evil Christians only happened in *response* to the original crusades, when the Muslims swept across Northern Africa, wiping out centuries-old Christian centers like Alexandria, subjecting all non-Muslims to dhimmi laws. Or, worse, the attacks east, where, originally, Hindus and Buddhists weren't even given the option to pay the jizya tax. They had to convert, or they were killed.

Islam is, textually (in its foundation) and historically a religion that has been spread by conquest and domination. It does not allow for other religions to "coexist" without subjugation. Just ask the few Christians left in Muslim countries where they are not allowed to go certain places, cannot show anything referencing their religion in public, cannot talk about their religion in public, cannot repair or build new houses of worship, etc. There is no freedom - there is eeking out an existence in the Faith out of strength and love of Truth. You cannot even complain if a Muslim takes your child away and forcibly converts them to Islam.

And all of this happens and, despite taqiyya, it is well known. Is every Muslim an evil terrorist? NO!!! But the religion carries within in the fundamental seed of danger, unlike any other major, world religion. That is what we face, and that is why developments like Muslims having the ability to segregate areas (like pools in the UK or public "meditation areas" in colleges or airports here in the US) are so alarming.

the sinner,

Charles

slavery
ldopas writes:
"Slavery? You were as culpable as us. However you forget it was us who banned the slave trade. You carried it on. Oops."

Actually, it was William Wilberforce (an evangelical Christian) who got it banned. An uphill fight that took almost his entire lifetime and ruined his health.

Islam Is The Problem
Their holy books tell them specifically to murder the infidel! Its the back sliders who aren't doing this.

The vast majority of terrorists are Muslims. Only Muslims can solve this problem. Until they kill or jail these jihadis, western nations should not allow any more Muslim immigration until they solve their propensity to murder others to attain their Islamic goals.

The west should keep a sharp eye on Muslims in their country.

Let the Islamists solve the terror problem or stay in the Muslim stink holes they currently reside in. It is time to act in the best interest of the free world.

I am disturbed by anyone
who comes on this site and instead of stating arguements calls names and ridicules the majority responding here. I am equally disturbed by those who respond in the same manner.

SkorpioG: It is always true newcomers tend to stay together because it is easier. When my daughter went to school in Russia for a summer, we warned her not to stick with other English speakers, but she took the easy way.

I grew up either in and near Dearborn and still reside near it.(My father's business was bought by Arabs.) Stores and restaurants have Arabic writing. Staff at the schools were given workshops to "understand" the culture of the muslim immigrants. Police received sensitivity training. And so, much of their culture has continued from the old country.(Dearborn is the largest gathering of Arabs outside of the Arab world.)However, there is growing evidence as with other immigrant groups, the second generation is getting educated, is objecting to the old ways, and is becoming more a part of the US culture.


Credit to whom it is due

slavery
ldopas writes:
"Slavery? You were as culpable as us. However you forget it was us who banned the slave trade. You carried it on. Oops."

--------
johnTaylor writes: 2:34 PM
Actually, it was William Wilberforce (an evangelical Christian) who got it banned. An uphill fight that took almost his entire lifetime and ruined his health.
--------
First and foremost Idopas has re-written history so he can deal with it, its just dishonest, but understandable as he cowers away from truth.

Slavery was Brought to American British Colonies by the King of England himself, and his authority.
It was made LEGAL by the British Empire, here in America.
LONG before there was such a place as the United States of America.
And also the FIRST TO OUTLAW SLAVERY HERE, not the British or Wilberforce.

They were LATE comers to the argument, very late indeed, as New Hampshire and Vermont and other New England STATES outlawed slavery in the 1700's.
And the American Quakers were the ones who first begin condemning it right here in America, long before the argument hit England.

Then the Brits just had to use words, as they did not have to fight a war to ban slavery that they STARTED HERE.
The United States after it was formed by tossing the Brits out of here, began the fight against this wickedness brought to America by the British.


loco
I would like to see that evidence. I know from what I have gathered from reports *from* Europe that it isn't happening there. Of course, Europe is far, far ahead of us in the field of "do whatever you want." (No religion in politics . . . please. Humanism is every bit as much a religion as any traditional religion). There was even a show, Dutch, I believe, wherein an undercover reporter (a volunteer) went into a local mosque. During the course of the report, there were interviews with various government heads from different countries who reported sincere concerns about the LACK of integration the Muslim communities were showing.

I can make something of an analogy, here. I live in SoCal, and the illegal immigrant issue is important for several reasons. One of the biggest is the rising lack of integration. They don't have to, anymore. There are more Spanish-language radio stations than English-language stations. There are dozens of Spanish-language tv shows, you can find supermarkets where everything is in Spanish. They don't need to speak English or become integrated into American culture to get a job or make a living. When an immigrant population reaches a certain level, and there is a cultural isolationist trend (as there has *become* in the illegal immigrant population in SoCal and there is built in with Islam) then there is a real threat of a lack of integration.

the sinner,

Charles

Vermont outlawed slavery in 1777
14 years before the US United under a Constitution.

And long before Wilberforce or any argument in England.

1791: Vermont is the first State to join the original thirteen colonies in the new Union. Its Constitution is the first such document to outlaw slavery, the first to prevent a person from being transported out of the state for a crime committed within, and the first to provide for a state university.

So the credit for banning slavery belongs to Americans.
Not the British who caused it all

talent scout
Thanks for pointing out that I was only considering the history of Britain: I should have been clearer on that one. Wilberforce was a British parliamentarian who had nothing to do with US politics.

Thin skinned
loco writes: 2:46 PM
I am disturbed by anyone
who comes on this site and instead of stating arguements calls names and ridicules the majority responding here. I am equally disturbed by those who respond in the same manner.
--------
Does it to you

Fair enough john
johnTaylor writes: 3:02 PM
talent scout
Thanks for pointing out that I was only considering the history of Britain: I should have been clearer on that one. Wilberforce was a British parliamentarian who had nothing to do with US politics.
---------
I see what you directed your attention to, and find nothing to argue with.

That was not the object of Idope's insults based in false history though, and is what I addressed.

I do believe everyone knows Wilberforce was not an American.

But thanks for reminding us

talent scount, et al
I'd be careful about treating historical trends in Islamic culture as unalterable, elemental characteristics of the religion itself.
How to explain...
The behavior of a religion's adherents is caused by a large, overlapping collection of sociological factors. Consider, for instance, how many times nominally Christian Europeans have inflicted hideous evils on one another or on other cultures, justified to one degree or another by the blessings of God--The Crusades, the Thirty Years' War, the "civilization" of American natives and subsequent imperialist abuses; even, with the flimsiest justification of all, Nazi genocide. That's ignoring the "easy ones" like pre-Communist anti-Semitic pogroms in Russia, witch burning, the war against the Cathars, etc. Each of these had many actual causes, but could (by the historically creative) easily be attributed to Christianity _per se_.

My point, to be very clear, is not that "Christians are just as bad," or anything similarly simpleminded. Please consider my actual argument before reacting.

Somehow, American Christians, drawing their beliefs from _precisely_ the same holy text as the perpetrators of the acts above, have managed to behave more humanely toward most other people (and certainly toward their own citizens) than the majority of world cultures in history or the present. Magic? No. Rather, I'm trying to point out that a religious text is a very flexible tool; it's easy to cite in support of virtually any position imagineable.
The Koran may have been brought along on thousands of conquests, but it wasn't necessarily riding the horses.

muslims and peace
if muslims are the great lovers of peace they claim than why are there no peaceful countries where muslims are in the majority. It seems that once they gain a foothold anywhere muslims turn against the ruling govt in their pursuit of implimenting the law of sharia

But what explains the lawlessness and the never ending murder of fellow muslims in the countries where they represent 100% of the population.

After the thousand years of having their own so called faith and majorities why are they incapable of living in harmony with each other.

Is there any muslim country that doesn't require a form of secret police in order to quell unrest amongst it's own citizenry. It seems that without the threat of violence against it's own citizens no muslim dictator could long remain in power. Only be imprisoning and killing off all dissent can they try and keep their own subjects in line.

And still the dims think they can find compromise and some form of world peace with muslims

This has been coming for a long time ...
I heard on C-Span a story from a woman who had a son in college. Three Muslim students came into his class, and he, being the usual, trusting American, befriended them by offering to take them out to dinner, then drive them around the city so they could see the sights. Everything went along very well and everyone seemed to enjoy themselves. Later, when he drove them back to where they were staying, two got out of the car, but the third one held back and said to their very nice host, that they had all enjoyed a good time and thanked him, but he needed to understand that when the time came, they would kill him. This happened in 1970, so this is something that has been in the planning for many years. Muslims like to say they will rule America by 2050, either through our political system or by the sword, whichever is necessary. They also like to say that our Capitol will be an enormous Muslim mosque. Grandiose? Yes, but where are we making any effort to dissuade them of this plan? Are our politicians so afraid for their political lives they are willing to see us America the drain. You don't need to answer this.

Islam needs a reformer
A reformer in the mold of Martin Luther could bring great changes to the attitudes of a majority of Muslims. This would involve terrible risks for this individual just as Martin Luther risked his own life. Islam must be saved from fanaticism just as Martin Luther rescued Christianity from excesses. Today, even Catholics appreciate his contributions.

Just as Martin Luther received protection from North German governments, the US must continue to fight for stability in the Middle East in order to ensure safety for Islamic reformers. Take this as a serious arguement against isolationism.

Idopas calling others...
jingoistic. That's rich. What a pompous poppinjay.

Too bad Werner von Braun didn't drop a V-2 on his ancestors.

We need the "special relationship"
It pains me to see so much venom being exchanged between Americans and a British subject. The special relationship is essential to the survival of all that both Britons and Americans hold dear. Churchill understood this. So did Roosevelt. And so do Bush 43, Blair and Brown.

Britain's "finest hour" will inspire freedom-loving people forever. But while Britain stood "alone," America provided increasing aid, eventually on a massive scale -- not just Lend-Lease, but even escorting convoys halfway across the Atlantic.

Both Britain and America fought both World Wars for idealistic and practical purposes. America intervened to save the people of Europe in general, and Britain in particular, from despotic barbarism. This was also in America's practical interest, as we did not want to face a triumphant dictatorial Germany -- particularly one with its hands on the British, French, and Italian fleets.

I'm concerned about the direction of Britain, but Idopas is correct that Britain remains committed internationally, has an excellent military, and continues to fight shoulder-to-shoulder with America in Iraq, Afghanistan, and elsewhere.

Nyarlathotep
This is *exactly* what I was talking about. The two are not comparable, in my mind. Islam, in its very textual basis (the Koran and the Hadith - any of the major versions) calls for the subjugation and/or elimination of all non-believers. No other religion does that.

What humans do to twist any particular religion has nothing to do with it. Of course human behavior such as this cuts across all religions. Just witness the attacks on Christians in India and surrounding region by both Hindus and Buddhists. It happens.

However, nothing that I've ever found in either of those two religion calls for such attacks or violence. This is NOT true of Islam. The Crusades would fall into the same category as these latter examples, unlike the original crusades of Muslims.

A religious text is only a "flexible tool" when in the hands of humans who see themselves as the arbiters of interpretation, or allow such behavior. In order to accept this, one HAS to accept that Truth, in whatever tradition you believe it resides, is flexible which, by definition, means it isn't Truth. For Muslims, if any of Mohammed's pronouncements were declared untrue (like calling for the subjugation of non-believers), then Mohammed isn't perfect, and there is reason to question all of his teachings. Either he is the Prophet, or he is fallible, which would call for the rejection of very fundamental beliefs of Islam.

the sinner,

Charles

Modern Britain
I remain concerned, however, about the growing weakness of post-Christian Europe, including Britain. To a conservative American, European Leftist multiculturalism looks like a continent-wide phenomenon. Perhaps it is a bit less advanced in Britain then on the Continent, but Britian appears to be on the same troubling path as Germany, France, Italy and the smaller nations of Western Europe.

I think that Mark Steyn correctly diagnoses the multiculturalist viewpoint as the self-loathing of the post-Christian West. It's not confined to Europe, either -- Canada appears to be in worse shape than Britain. Blue-state America looks pretty similar.

Messrs. Steyn and Blakely also correctly observe the massive demographic changes taking place in Western Civilization, exclusive of America. In mainland Europe, Britain, Canada and Japan, the native populations are reproducing at far less than replacement rate, and there is massive Muslim immigration.

Idopas: You have an insider's view. Does this seem an incorrect observation about modern Britain?

Slavery
Isn't there enough credit to go around for ending slavery? It was the morality of Anglo-American Protestantism, on both sides of the Atlantic, that finally ended this scourge.

Wilberforce and Lincoln are both heroes. The Army of the Potomac, the Army of the West, and the British Fleet all share credit for enforcing this just cause.

This issue should be uniting Americans and Britons, not dividing us.

beyond the pale:
The main reason that the sect in Texas has been raided and not the Muslim group in NY is that the CPS and the government doesn't expect anyone to object. There are a lot of objections here because we don't think the CPS should have the right to raid any place without evidence and investigation first. I think they realize they made a mistake but don't want to admit it for fear people will laugh at them. (As if that isn't already happening.) I also think one of the main reasons they raided the place is because a lot of adoptee parents would like to adopt healthy respectful white children. Their first day they said they were going to adopt all these children out.

When I asked about others, such as Muslims, doing the same thing no one will come out and say that raids should be done there too. I think all are afraid the Muslins, etc. might want to object and shoot back instead of passive resistance. In fact the CPS here is complaining because the sect is using the press to tell everyone what the CPS is doing. They don't mind using the press to make themselves look good but they object to the other side making them look bad.

GG-AZ
What do you mean, ending the scorge of slavery? It hasn't ended, even in the United States. Just the other day there was a man sentenced to 9 years in prison for enslaving a number of girls and making them work as prostitutes "to pay back their expenses for bringing them across the border." At a guess, there are probably more slaves in the U.S. today than ever before. And there are certainly more slaves in the world. Easern Europe is particularly bad and so is the Middle East.

Lives of Politicians
I think one of the worst things I see today is the politician's fear of death. During Gulf Wars, a friend was in an artillery unit there. They were preparing to fire on an Iraqi convoy when the office in charge called a cease fire. It appeared that Saddam might be with it. When the men wanted to see if they could get Saddam, the officer told them that Congress was afraid that if Saddam was killed that assassins might target them.

It was okay for soldiers to die. It just isn't okay to risk the lives of politicians.

We have the same problem today. The politicians are willing to give in to Muslim terrorists on almost anything if they believe there is even the slightest chance a terrorist might target them. Soldiers are supposed to die but they aren't. Besides soldiers aren't important but politicians are. (HHH was a good example of that thought.) So until we get politicians with big brass ones, I'm afraid all we'll see is more concessions to the terrorists until we finally get someone in office who has had enough.

Not this complicated at all
Nyarlathotep writes: 2008 3:17 PM
talent scount, et al
I'd be careful about treating historical trends in Islamic culture as unalterable, elemental characteristics of the religion itself.
How to explain...
----------
Allow me to explain it for you in its most basic differences.

Jesus Christ
v.
mohammed

45caliber
Of course, I meant ending the scourge of legalized slavery. As I recall, slavery is illegal under international law, and of course has been illegal in the US since the 13th Amendment.

I really doubt that there are millions of slaves in the US. Probably not even thousands.

You're probably right about the Middle East, and China too. I don't know about Eastern Europe.

Outlawing something, and actually enforcing that law, are two different things.

One other thing you should know
About me Nyarlathotep.
You say I should be careful.

Bad advice but thanks for the thought.

Here is what I believe in the question of my Faith.

Php 4:6 -
Be careful for nothing;.........

9 Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.

Some things I do need to be careful about, but in speaking about islam, its bad advice.
islam needs to be exposed for its imperial beliefs concerning the false prophet and Anti-Christ mohammed

Nyarlathotep
I submit that it wasn't just American Christians who "somehow . . . managed to behave more humanely toward most other people." Credit is due to Britain as well. It was Anglo-American Protestant Christianity that is responsible for the good (though not perfect) societies that you rightly praise.

As Charles the Hammer pointed out, the abuses in the name of Christianity were departures or perversions of Christian doctrine. I want to respond in particular to two of the atrocities that you list:

(1) Theologically, the Crusades were an importation of the Muslim concept of Jihad into Christianity. Before the First Crusade, there was no concept in Christianity of earning salvation by fighting in a Holy War. That was Mohammed's brainstorm. Politically, of course, the Crusades were a response to brutal and massive Muslim conquest. All war in those days was brutal, so there's no reason to single out the Crusaders.

(2) The Nazis were not Christian. They were the antithesis of Christianity, a twisted and evil philosophy derived from Nietsche and Darwin. You know, in his "Finest Hour" speech, Churchill also said: "Upon this battle depends the survival of Christian civilization."


Charles the Hammer
To recap without quoting a lengthy passage, you assert that the Koran is not a "flexible tool" because the abandonment of any of Mohammed's pronouncements is essentially an intellectual impossibility for a Muslim. Such an act, you say, would potentially void the entire Koran and is therefore anathema for them. Am I interpreting you correctly?

I disagree with your explanation, on the basis that Muslims already exhibit different interpretations of the Koran, and follow Mohammed's dictates differently--to the point of hating each other, in cases. They are not consciously ignoring passages of scripture; rather, like Christians who eat lobster or who believe in socialist wealth redistribution, they simply hear different messages when reading the same text.
Ergo, I say, Islam is not exempt from the "Bible as Swiss army knife" principle; one need not reject tenets of one's religion to reach one's own, often very convenient, conclusions.

talent scout
I don't think you understand my argument. JC and Mohammed were very different people; my point is that it doesn't necessarily matter, because religion is subject to so much personal and sectarian interpretation that, after long enough, it is rendered less a substantive declaration of law and more a formal rallying point for people with some culture in common. A two line "Jesus vs. Mohammed" comparison is a bit of an oversimplification.

Just so you understand
Why its useless to talk to this guy, here is who Nyarlathotep is:


Nyarlathotep (the Crawling Chaos) is a fictional character in the Cthulhu Mythos. He is the creation of H. P. Lovecraft and first appeared in his prose poem "Nyarlathotep" (1920). The being is one of the cosmic Outer Gods and appears in numerous stories by Lovecraft. Nyarlathotep is also featured in the works of other authors, as well as in role-playing games based on the Cthulhu Mythos.


In other words, the last thing he wants is to communicate for good reason, but to try and cause confusion

Idopas Wrecks
If someone said to you that your house was in danger of being over-run by termites, and they cited examples of termites having been seen attacking your house, would your response be to verbally abuse that someone who was trying to warn you of the problem?

Many Americans view Western Europe as a collection of nations headed for a train wreck. Specifically all of Western Europe that was not previously behind the Iron Curtain. Instead of berating us, why aren't you trying to "understand us"? We have a very good reason for this opinion: Whether it be the muslims marching in London proclaiming "Freedom Go To Hell", to the orgy of car bombings in France, to the assasination of Dutch politicians, etc etc.

You have imported large, hostile muslim populations, to keep your ponzi scheme socialist systems going for one more generation, and too bad for the poor saps who will be left holding the bag after that.

At least when your cities erupt in flames, it will be the impetus to take a harder line with the muslims who would do the same here. My only regret is that the Louvre and the British Museum will have to burn first before the political will is generated to fight the Muslim Menace without shame, guilt, or second guessing.

Your point is meaningless
Nyarlathotep writes: 5:36 PM
talent scout
I don't think you understand my argument. JC and Mohammed were very different people; my point is that it doesn't necessarily matter, because religion is subject to so much personal and sectarian interpretation that, after long enough, it is rendered less a substantive declaration of law and more a formal rallying point for people with some culture in common. A two line "Jesus vs. Mohammed" comparison is a bit of an oversimplification.
---------
100 percent wrong
But I really do not care what you want to believe.

The comparison of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Lord of Heaven and Earth is impossible to compare to such a man as mohammed except to point out that mohammed is of the devil and a false prophet.
A murderer, a rapist,a thief and a child molester.
The only comparison is light and darkness, good and evil, truth and lies.

Got it now?

GG-AZ
My apologies; by citing American Christianity, I didn't mean implicitly to exclude other contributions to civilized religion. I just picked a generally agreeable, nonmurderous religious community with which I was familiar, and tossed it out there. You're right about England, of course.

Regarding your actual rebuttals, though, I don't think I've been clear enough. I wasn't saying that the Crusades or Nazism were ACTUALLY in line with principles of Christianity. I meant to point out that in both cases, proponents of atrocities claimed either explicitly religious motives (the Crusades--to recover Jerusalem) or God's general support (Nazism, who iirc wrote "God Is With Us" on their uniform belts).
That Winston Churchill ALSO named God as his ally helps to illustrate my point.

My thesis, then, was that association with religion--because anyone can invoke God--does not lay the invoker's acts at the feet of the God in question, be he Jehovah or Allah.

Idopas is gone.
His local library closed and he had to sign off the internet, walk back to his council flat, and down a few pints of ale before pulling out his rotten teeth with a pliers.

talent scout
I take great pains to be polite, given the number of careless, overgeneralized pejoratives that get slung around TH every day. I gotta say, though, I don't think you _get_ logical discussion. Neither accusing Mohammed (twice) of being either the actual Antichrist or just vaguely Satanic, nor questioning my taste in screen name will ever convince a rational person of your correctness re: history and theology.

We're here, I hope, to improve everyone's understanding of actual issues. Whether I'm the devil, or you smell bad, or some other poster is actually a cybernetic ferret, doesn't matter at all.

Nyarathotep
I think that we're in broad agreement. I wonder if you agree with me that Anglo-American Christianity in a representative republic is the best society that's yet been seen on this admittedly imperfect earth.

I share your trepidation about outright condemnation of Islam. However, I think that it is historically accurate to say that the dominant strain(s) of Islam have been uniformly violent, imperialistic, and warlike, and that this trend extends all the way back to Mohammed himself and his imemediate followers.

The spread of Islam into the Western democracies is a new challenge to some of our core political beliefs. We believe in freedom of "religion," freedom of thought, and freedom of expression. Whatever "religion" may be at the margins, I have trouble imagining a reasonable definition that excludes Islam. But Islam -- at least the dominant, radical types -- doesn't recognize the Western concept of the separation of church and state. It seems to me that Islam is both a "religion" and a "political philosophy." And as a political philosophy, the dominant type(s) of Islam apparently want to conquer the world, impose Sharia law, and either convert us forcefully or cut off our heads.

This is a serious problem.

I hope and pray that Muslims in the West will peacefully assimilate. The current evidence suggests that they are not, and that things are moving in the wrong direction.

It's been said that our Constitution is not a suicide pact. I'm concerned that our current view of "freedom of religion" cannot survive the emergence of a substantial Muslim minority. When does a group stop being welcome immigrants, and become the fifth column of a foreign would-be conqueror?

Oops
Immediate, not "imemediate." Typo.

Nyarlathotep
So O.K. lets go with them premise of your argument and discount religious affiliation and look purely at the political views of Middle Eastern countries vs. Western countries.

Could you tell me how many gays were executed in the Middle East last year? The last I read it was in the hundreds. I just read an AP report that in Egypt four men were jailed in accordance with public decency laws and may face the death penalty. Can you point out the last time a European country or American state did such a thing?
How about the equal treatment of women? Can women even vote in Saudi Arabia?
How about care and welfare of the poor? Europe and the American governments spend billions feeding the hungry and giving free health care. How about the Middle East? Can you name one humanitarian effort they have led to eliviate hunger---even on their own soil?
These are difficult question to answer simply because for the Muslim, religion and politics are one and the same. And it is foolish and shortsighted to apply the Western standard of separation of church and state to people who have no such concept in their own culture.

"God Is With Us" on Nazi uniforms
Nyarlathotep --- yes, I believe their infantry inscribed "Gott Mit Uns" on their belt buckles. No idea how they arrived at that conclusion. (Dietrich Bonhoeffer, German Lutheran pastor, was jailed for openly opposing Hitler. "Brother, why are you in here?" asked his bishop, visiting him. "Brother, why are you out there?" Bonhoeffer countered.)

"Association with religion--because anyone can invoke God--does not lay the invoker's acts at the feet of the God in question, be he Jehovah or Allah."
I certainly agree with you on that one. As an evangelical Christian I like to tell people, "rather than say 'Christians commit murder,' how about saying, 'murderers commit blasphemy'."

I would make the case, though, that of the two religions, one does lend itself a lot more readily to justifying violence ...

slavery and the koran
Slavery is alive and well in the muslum world.
Muslims are given 4 choices when dealing with captives. They are told to do the one that best advances the cause of Islam. 1. Show mercy and set the infidel free. 2. Ransom them for money. 3. Sell them into slavery. 4. Kill them.

We fought our first war against Islamic terrorist because they were raiding US merchant ships and selling the sailors off as slaves the ransoms were not paid. Thomas Jefferson refused to tolerate these acts-of-war against the US and thus wage the war against the Barbary Pirates. From this we get the following line in the USMC song, "From the shores of Tripoli."

GG-AZ
You know what? I think we've reached something resembling agreement, at least re: the current global situation (that is, reserving our initial disagreement about the bedrock nature of Islam).
--This constitutional republic thing we've got going is exceptionally successful in terms of quality of life, aggression against neighbors, human rights, internal stability, etc, etc. The caveat, of course, is that I haven't traveled extensively, or lived very long, so I can't be positive about our success relative to others', but it looks good so far.
--As much as it pains me, Islam does appear (from my secondhand media information) to be anecdotally more aggressive, violent, and intolerant than any other religion on Earth. Either this is true, or they're absolutely awful at PR. Obviously, Charles and I still disagree about _why_, but for the time being the fact remains.
--Because of this, I have to agree that we could have trouble on our hands. If I had to pick a single group of people who most want me to die, it would unfortunately have to be a tiny but still significant number of Muslims.

Nice to know that not everyone who worries about Islam thinks they're a monolithic, bloodthirsty horde of subhumans.

Image of Islam
"The damage that is being inflicted daily on the image of Islam doesn't come from the American people, who are constantly accused of Islamophobia, but practices such as forced marriage, honour killings and heated denunciations of "Western" values."

Think as you wish, so will I
Nyarlathotep writes: 6:04 PM
talent scout
I take great pains to be polite, given the number of careless, overgeneralized pejoratives that get slung around TH every day. I gotta say, though, I don't think you _get_ logical discussion. Neither accusing Mohammed (twice) of being either the actual Antichrist or just vaguely Satanic, nor questioning my taste in screen name will ever convince a rational person of your correctness re: history and theology.
--------
ts:
Anyone who thinks he has some sort of power to heal the differences in an eastern religion and the Western Christianity is deluded.

You have no such power.
No man does, and our difference is, I accept the real world as it is, not like you think it "should be".

Good luck though, but your wasting your time with such delusions.
mohammed is an Anti-Christ, he rejected Jesus Christ as the Son of God, that is anti Christ.
If you do not like the term, so what, it is not going away.

--------





Nyarlathotep writes

We're here, I hope, to improve everyone's understanding of actual issues. Whether I'm the devil, or you smell bad, or some other poster is actually a cybernetic ferret, doesn't matter at all.
------
ts:
The issues are what I said already.
Jesus Christ v. mohammed.
All there is to it, as all differences stem from this basic fact of life.
And you will change none of it.

Nyarlathotep
Yes, I think we're in broad agreement.

A large part of the Muslim world may be monolithic and bloodthirsty. I don't know how many, but it seems to be a substantial minority, if not a majority.

But they most certainly are not subhuman. Every one of them is created in the image and likeness of Almighty God. Every one of them is infinitely precious in the sight of God the Father. And Jesus Christ let Himself be tortured and killed out of His love for every one of them, to offer them salvation.

He loves them every bit as much as He loves me. And I am just as unworthy of His love as they are. Yet while we were sinners -- all of us -- Christ died for us.

Our Muslim brothers and sisters are misled by a false religion.


LIES AND LIARS
Muslim SVirk quotes Shefali:

"Remember that when Muhammad took his
prophecies to a village, if they rejected them, his response was to return with an army and conquer that village, killing the men and enslaving the women."

Then asks:

"Are you just making things up or are you a victim of brainwashing? What you have just stated is a lie."

Sorry SVirk, what YOU have just stated is a lie. Islam explicitly condones lying to non-Muslims for strategic advantage. Muslims call this “taqueya” or "holy deception."

Islam operates under a “religion of peace” public relations strategy until powerful enough to flex its muscles and kill. Those peddling this line selectively quote Koran 2: 256: "There is no compulsion in religion" and Koran 25: 63: “The worshippers of the All-Merciful [Allah] are those who tread the earth gently and, when the ignorant speak to them, they reply ‘Peace.’” These are suras (verses) of the early period, when Mohammed was living in Mecca, with few followers, and still trying to win converts by persuasion.

What the deceivers don’t tell us is that according to Islamic doctrine, the Koran’s earlier suras are abrogated by Muhammad’s subsequent revelations once he was strong enough to disclose his real agenda. As recorded in the Koran and other Islamic scripture, these plainly state that unceasing warfare against non-believers is a pillar of mainstream Islam.

The Koran records that Muhammad led 77 terrorist raids against his neighbours, for the very reason that Shefali states: to compel submission to Muhammad and his false god Allah.

johnTaylor
"Gott Mit Uns" was the motto of the Kingdom of Prussia. It was on the Prussian Royal Standard from 1871 to 1918, together with the Iron Cross.

I recall hearing a British WWI veteran discuss his recollection that German soldiers had "Gott Mit Uns" engraved on the back of their belt buckles.

In any event, it was not a Nazi symbol, but an Imperial German symbol. It was retained by the Wehrmacht, together with the Iron Cross symbol. The real Nazis, such as the Waffen SS, used the swastika and a motto meaning "My Honor Is Loyalty" (Meine Ehre heißt Treue).

ISLAMIC TREATMENT OF WOMEN 1
Any thinking female would be insulted by Islam's view of women.

Under Islamic Sharia law, the value of a woman is only half the value of a man:

Qur'an 4:11 "Allah commands you as regards your children's (inheritance); to the male, a portion equal to that of two females..."

Bukhari: V3B48N826 "The Prophet said, 'Isn't the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?' The women said, 'Yes.' He said, 'This is because of the deficiency of a woman's mind.'"

Consider now the Muslim stance on consensual sex and coveting thy neighbour's wife:

Qur'an 4:23 "Prohibited to you are: your mothers, daughters, sisters … Also (prohibited are) women already married, except slaves who are captives." Qur'an 4:24 "Also (forbidden are) women already married, except those (captives and slaves) whom your right hands possess. Thus has Allah ordained for you. All others are lawful..." Qur'an 70:28 "Preserve their chastity except with their wives and the slave girls they possess - for which there is no blame."

Therefore, having sex with wives/captives/slaves, meaning sex with those who have no right to refuse the advance, aka rape, is ok. And don't take your neighbour's wife - unless you conquer and kill him first.

Qur'an 24:34 "Force not your slave-girls to whoredom (prostitution) if they desire chastity, that you may seek enjoyment of this life. [And here's the freedom-to-rape card:] But if anyone forces them, then after such compulsion, Allah is oft-forgiving."


ISLAMIC TREATMENT OF WOMEN 2
Here’s what the Qur’ an says about a husband’s permissible treatment of his wife:

Tabari IX:113 "Allah permits you to shut them in separate rooms and to beat them, but not severely. If they abstain, they have the right to food and clothing. Treat women well for they are like domestic animals and they possess nothing themselves. Allah has made the enjoyment of their bodies lawful in his Qur'an."

So women should be beaten, locked in the closet, their bodies are there to be ravaged, but make sure you treat them as well as a dog.

Or for Muslims, maybe a sheep or cow would be a better comparison. Muslim men have such an affinity for molesting animals, the most influential and revered Muslim cleric in recent Islamic history, the Ayatollah Khomeini, felt it necessary to issue these fatwahs:

"A man can have sex with animals such as sheep, cows, camels and so on. However he should kill the animal after he has his orgasm. He should not sell the meat to the people in his own village, however selling the meat to the next door village should be fine."

Maybe this is why beef exports aren't exactly a booming business for Islamic countries.

"If one commits the act of sodomy with a cow, a ewe, or a camel, their urine and their excrement become impure, and even their milk may no longer be consumed. The animal must then be killed and as quickly as possible and burned."


ISLAMIC TREATMENT OF WOMEN 3
While we're on the subject of the legal opinions of Islam's most respected cleric, let's not forget this other Khomeini gem: "It is better for a girl to marry in such a time when she would begin m*nstruation at her husband's house rather than her father's home. Any father marrying his daughter so young will have a permanent place in heaven."

Marrying off your daughter before puberty is a Muslim father's VIP pass to heaven. More helpful advice from the Ayatollah: "A man can have s*xual pleasure from a child as young as a baby. However he should not penetrate, s*domising the child is OK. If the man penetrates and damages the child then he should be responsible for her subsistence all her life. This girl, however, does not count as one of his four permanent wives. The man will not be eligible to marry the girl's sister."


ISLAMIC TREATMENT OF WOMEN 4
Why does the Ayatollah condone kiddy-fiddling? It might because Islamic scripture records that Muhammad married Aisha when she was six years old and he was 53. The marriage was first consummated when Aisha was nine years old. Most of us would consider a 56 year old man who had sex with a nine year old girl a p*dophile.

Let's wrap up our discussion, and at the same time let Muhammad tell us why any woman who has read the Koran and remains a Muslim must retarded: Tabari I:280 "Allah said, 'It is My obligation to make Eve bleed once every month as she made this tree bleed. I must also make Eve stupid, although I created her intelligent.' Because Allah afflicted Eve, all of the women of this world m*nstruate and are stupid."

Not only stupid, but innately unclean. The Koran further records that the Black Stone of the Ka' aba (one of the holiest shrines of Islam) was once white, but became black when menstruating women touched it: Tabari I:298 "The Black Stone which was originally whiter than snow was brought down [from Paradise] with Adam ... "The stone turned black because it was fingered by menstruating women."


Joisey 5:47 PM
Very clever topic heading. And a great post as well.

bad boy: Hilarious. Thanks for the laugh.

JD'S Handsome Son: Letting them get the best of you, wouldn't you say?

Idopas
Equating "right wing Christians" with radical Muslims tells us everything we need to know about Isopas. He has no credibility after that, and many other, absurd statement(s). Idopas is simply a little weasal of a man spewing hatred for America the way a spoiled teeenager who thinks he knows everything rails against his parents. Of course, he's smarter than the "stupid" Americans. What an immature, foolish idiot.

I wonder
how there can be any form of Islam EXCEPT radical Islam when one reads the words of the clearly demented Mohammed. Moderate Islams are just not taking their religion seriously.

IDOPAS WRECKS
Indeed. His brains are probably curdled by too many years spent on his knees "fagging" at some minor public school. That's the sum total of his erudition.

GG-AZ
You said: "I really doubt that there are millions of slaves in the US. Probably not even thousands."

There were only thousands during the Civil War period. There simply wasn't that many people in the United States then to insist that there were millions of slaves then. I doubt if there were even as many as a hundred thousand at that time.

That's why I said there are probably as many slaves now as then. It is a lot easier to hide them now. We hear of some ever couple of weeks although they don't actually say so on the news. For instance, the couple who kept two women servants in New England. The family that took a black woman in Kentucky or Tennessee. The man who captured a young girl and hid her in a hole in his back yard. All were slaves.

Albania and area is considered the number 1 place in the world for prostitute buying and selling. Most are Russian, but many are from other countries including the United States.

GG-AZ, Sirrah
I have to agree with you as far as Muhammad being a false prophet; and the good works of many good English. Some things you say, though, are patently absurd. Here, for instance:

"Theologically, the Crusades were an importation of the Muslim concept of Jihad into Christianity." REPLY:

Absolutely not. --You continue: "Before the First Crusade, there was no concept in Christianity of earning salvation by fighting in a Holy War."

REPLY: --There is none at all; and neither __then__ was there. No Catholic teaching says we can earn salvation.

The granting of certain indulgences has nothing to do with salvation. It is release from Purgatory; and all the souls in Purgatory have already been saved by Christ. There is Purgatory, and there are indulgences which free the suffering souls.

Christians were promised by their pontiff the remittance of time in Purgatory, for the offering of their efforts & combat against the Saracen. I assure you as a Catholic; although the Crusades may seem to have failed in the mission to deliver the shrines of the Holy Land; every participant truly received the benefit of those indulgences; because the Church can grant them by the authority of Jesus Christ. They are NOT bogus in any way.



Islam on Earth
The word of the Muhammad when it came to others not of his faith was to chop off their heads. He figure that if they did not bow with him then they bow against him. It was better to kill them then take a chance that they would ride against him. That belief still is taught to the followers of Islam. Anyone who is not of the faithful will be killed and their lifestyles will be destoryed. It is not some will live in peace with their religion, they will not. All Americans will bow at the same time toward Mecca or have their heads chop off. Also all of your books and images will be burn. No if, or buts.
Sorry the truth comes out.
Steyn is right, Islam will destory your way of life, sooner or later your head will be chop off.

bye-bye Canada, UK

Mark Steyn and any intelligent person should do what this family has done: Put Canada and the UK behind dirty bathrooms on the list of places to visit. The pathetic Canadians and Brits are nuts, just plain nuts. Why go and contribute tourist dollars to fools like those?

When will another Enoch Powell rise up to organize the ejection of the mohammedans from what was a noble country until 20 years ago or so?

When will there be more brave people like the bishop of Calgary to defy the insane Canadian system of protection of freaks and mohammedans?

Islam no organized military threat?
Thousands of nuclear centrifuges in Iran spinning up death for the West. Iran, run by fanatics 100,000 times more insane and dangerous than any right-wing loon in the Bible Belt.

These monsters both deny that the Jewish Holocaust occurred AND are promising another Jewish Holocaust in the 21st century.

Leftists who can't see this simple truth have had their reasoning damaged by PC ideology.

If we allow the fanatics in Iran to have the bomb - humanity will enter into a dark phase of history which could very well lead to our extinction as a species.

Islam and liberal hypocrisy
listening to liberal rhetoric about religious conservatives would cause one to think that they pose a threat to establish a Taliban type of society. Christians, they aledge, would persecute gays, and ban abortion and pornography. Yet, the evidence (except for abortion) does not support their fears. However, shiria law as practiced in Islamic societies, actually does persecute gays and ban abortion and pornograph. And the punishment for these indiscretions is severe. Gays are thrown off roof tops. Abortion and pornography are prohibited. And heaven help those found engaging in such behavior. In addition, dress unappealing dress codes, dancing, sports, and music would be dramatically regulated. In short, the freedoms which liberals falsely claim that Christians want to take from them, are actually being taken from people who live in islamic societies. And yet we do not hear a single word of praise for the President's efforts to bring freedom to those living under shiria law and to keep us safe from its imposition upon us. They suffer from a Bush psychosis which causes them to forget their values as well as their interest in our national security. They fear President Bush more than they fear islamic rule. Thanks to liberalism, we are crumbling from within when we need to be our strongest.

Islamic imperative: nuclear war
Unlike Christianity, the Islamic faith believes the end times are something to long for because it will bring back the 12th imam. Futhermore, they believe that catastrophic human events-such as a nuclear war-can usher in the end times. The President of Iran has said as much. Shouldn't we attack them before they get their nukes?

It Takes A Village
'Deuteronomy tells us that "each human by his own sin is to be judged" and "do not punish children for the sins of their fathers." '

Unless you're black. Then 'lay it on me, man'!

'But radicalized Islam places little value on the individual, while holding up for supreme value the interests of the group, particularly their view of the group called Islam.'

It Takes a Village, Stupid.

Democrats are stupid brainwashed idiots
John McCain is the only cannidate that will fufill our presidents war on islam. What we need in these endtimes is a good strong coneretive anti-libaral, non-hippie who holds true to the word of our lord. I really hope WHEN McCain becomes president he lives up to the republican platform and ends abortion, criminalizes gay sex and marrage and stops de-regulashion. We need to invade andor nuke iran and all these terriorists before its too late. This is exacly what the bible pridected would happen if the world fell away from his word. Armogeddon is close at hand we must stop them as a global force and unite christians and live as the word would tell us. and wage war against the non-beilevers and democarats and libarals.

Stand up for god, fight for our country, stop islam and fagsfor our future of our familys, kill aborshion doctors!

Stop Obama "husain" satan
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