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Wednesday, June 24, 2009
Thomas Sowell :: Townhall.com Columnist
Another "Good Thing"
by Thomas Sowell
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Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


Even if the "stimulus" package doesn't seem to be doing much to stimulate the economy, it is certainly stimulating many potential recipients of government money to start lining up at the trough. All you need is something that sounds like a "good thing" and the ability to sell the idea.

A perennial "good thing" is education. So it is not surprising that leaders of the Association of Public and Land Grant Universities have come out with an assertion that "the U.S. should set a goal of college degrees for at least 55 percent of its young adults by 2025."

Nothing is easier in politics than setting some arbitrary goal-- preferably based on numbers-- and go after it, in utter disregard of the costs or the repercussions. That is how we got into the housing boom and bust, by mindlessly pursuing ever-higher statistics of home ownership. The same political game can be played by making ever higher miles per gallon the goal for automobiles, ever more "open space," ever more-- you name it.

Sometimes these open-ended political crusades can be given some semblance of rationality by referring to other countries that have bigger numbers in whatever is the goal du jour.

The representatives of the Association of Public and Land Grant Universities point to the fact that, in countries like Canada, Korea and Japan, "more than 50 percent of young adults hold college degrees" while only 41 percent do in the United States.

No reason is given why one of these numbers is better than another. Apparently the implicit assumption is that education is a "good thing" that it is always better to have more of. But, if that is the case, why 55 percent rather than 75 percent, 95 percent or 100 percent?

Even food is not a "good thing" categorically, without limit. We can't live without it but, beyond some point, it causes obesity and shortens our lives.

A certain amount of education is undoubtedly very beneficial for some people but, at some point, enough is enough, even for geniuses. For each individual, depending on that individual's interests and dedication as well as ability, the time comes to leave the classroom and go out into the real world.

It is not just dummies who reach the point when it makes sense for them to "drop out" of education. Michael Dell of Dell computers and Bill Gates of Microsoft both dropped out of college, and neither of them seems to be doing badly.

Given the composition of the population as it is-- which is always what we have to start with-- what evidence is there that too few or too many are going to college?

As someone who spent years teaching at colleges and universities for students who ranked in the country's top 10 percent, I nevertheless encountered many students whose interest in intellectual matters was less than overwhelming, to put it charitably.

Many were bright enough but often gave the impression that they would rather be somewhere else, doing something else. Some of their teachers also thought that they should be somewhere else, doing something else.

During my first semester of teaching, my grading standards caused most students like that to transfer out by the second semester. Teaching the other students during the second semester was a sheer joy and I continued to get letters from them over the years, even after I had moved on to other institutions. In other words, the departure of the dead wood made the class better.

Far weightier evidence than anecdotal personal experiences, however, are the statistics on how many students actually graduate.

The American Enterprise Institute, a Washington think-tank, has recently published statistics on what percent of a given college's students manage to graduate in the course of six years.

There are colleges where at least four-fifths of the students graduate in that time and other colleges where at least four-fifths of the students fail to graduate in that time.

Considering the enormous costs of maintaining a student in college-- whether that cost is paid by parents, the taxpayers, or the students themselves-- an open-ended call for "more" seems like too many other open-ended commitments that have run up record national debts without any corresponding benefits.

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About The Author
Thomas Sowell is a senior fellow at the Hoover Institute and author of The Housing Boom and Bust.
 
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Once again, Dr. Sowell
You nailed it! I believe this quote is attributable to Thomas Wolfe 'We must respect both our philosophers and our plumbers, or neither our theories nor our pipes will hold water!' When asked why he didn't go further with his education, my husband (BS in Elec. Engineering) stated that was all he needed to succeed. We own a highly successful small business (we support 4 other families and two singles) with his education and my AA in Business. Not everyone is cut out for college and throwing more money at public education is not going to solve the problem. Anything that is free diminishes in value. I think everyone ought to be responsible for their own education and if big government wants to fund it let the money follow the child, be it regular public school, magnet or even home school. Bigger and more are not necessarily "Good things" A lot of the time, smaller and less is the answer.

The purpose of
shoveling money to "education" has nothing to do with exposing the students to intellectual stimulation or making them more productive as citizens. If the nation spends $500 billion on education and the government adds another $50 billion it just means we're spending $550 billion. There's no increase in knowledge or productivity.

The largest single source of funding for the Left has been the socialist education bureaucracy. For years increases in education funding has meant more money for Democraps. It's no surprise they wish to enlarge this pipeline. A secondary but important use of the system is as indoctrination of the young.

The only mystery is why Reps. haven't figured this out and continue to cut their own throats by supporting increases in funding to the bloated corrupt socialist system. They really are the stupid party.

disgruntled: Value of education
I am not sure that you understand either the purpose of Dr. Sowell's article, or the comment I posted. A College Education should be for a purpose – not a goal in itself.

The “government” has set a goal to have 55% of the “children” graduate from college. Will the attainment of a college degree, in an arena of little or no demand, help that “child” succeed?

It seems to me that you were able and willing to give your child everything he needed. As a parent, this was a truly laudable action.

However, what the current administration will propose is not to have a parent decide that they wish to have their child attend college… to further broaden the child’s experience and general knowledge; but that all of us should pay (taxes) for un-needed and un-productive “education” for the sake of meeting the stated goal.

Value of education
Let me disagree with the good professor and the BS in Mechanical Engineering commenter. My son was diagnosed with a rather severe memory learning disability while in grammer school. In a nutshell, he didn't process information by reading because his memory sensors didn't work like they were supposed to. He was plenty bright, and excelled in woodworking, still we thought the experience of a liberal arts education would be valuable to him as an adult. We sent him to a good preparatory high school from which he was accepted at a good (large and private) urban college from which he graduated in four years with the assistance of note takers for lecture courses. Fast forward to 10 years out of college, he is happily married to a high achieving professional woman and he is quite fulfilled in his work as a property manager and all purpose handy man. He is maybe one of only a handful of such in that job category with a college degree. He has a lively interest in current affairs, and I believe he is able to communicate and interface with his upscale clients by means of his college education. In other words the college experience allowed him to become a more well rounded and interesting and interested individual than in the absence of same. While Dr Sowell has his point, not everyone is cut out to be a potential scholar. That doesn't mean those individuals who are not cannot benefit from being exposed to intellectuals, history, social sciences and the like.

Great column
Great column. Even if unlimited education were economically feasible--if it were possible for everyone to go to school their whole lives and become well-versed in field after field after field--the time comes when we must apply that knowledge and contribute to the world. When a sponge absorbs all it can absorb, it's time to squeeze some out and put the sponge to use, not keep dousing it.

I have levied restrictions on tuition
Thanks Dr. Sowell – your articles are truly meaningful and inspiring.
My education level is a BS in Mechanical Engineering

My son (17) and I have been having significant and sometimes heated discussions about college (major) choices. My son is gifted in music, and has the potential to do well in performance. However, when it comes to post high-school education, I have serious qualms about him taking a “music” or “arts” major. He is actually allowed to sign up for any major he wants… but I have levied restrictions on majors for which I will pay tuition costs.

He knows that in order to receive financial support from me, he must select a major that focuses on the math and sciences, or provides him with an in-demand trade skill (e.g., state education certificate, MBA, computer technology, etc.). I have placed these restrictions on his major choice – not to force him to choose something he doesn’t want to do… but with the belief that even if he never works in the field of his major, his education will demonstrate the ability to compile a skill set meaningful to employers.

I have never worked as a mechanical engineer. But, my education (knowledge base) has allowed me to obtain employment and succeed in career and life.

Better options than college
The traditional bachelors degree is a tremendous waste of time and money. After four years of study and tens of thousands of dollars, you are qualified for an entry level job in your field. Most graduate degrees assume you did nothing in your undergrad, other than develop some basic work ethic and writing ability. The future is 12-month graduate school programs (like exec MBA), full-time (40 hr/week) instructor led courses in specific subjects, and self-study certifications, all combined with relevant experience or internships, resulting in a portfolio that you can show employers.

Let's spend for the sake of spending!
Yeah...let's continue to spend more taxpayer money so more kids can go to college and spend not four years, but five, six or more years getting drunk, stripping on youtube and having a blast.

Tell Your Senators "No" on S909
Dear Senator:
Re: The Matthew Shepard Hate Crimes Prevention Act (S909)
I urge you to vote "No" on this pending Act for the following main reasons:
1) It Is an Assault on Liberty of Conscience. - In free countries, criminal acts are punished—not beliefs or views. The proposed hate crimes bill would result in two convictions—one for the criminal act, and another for the beliefs or thoughts behind it. This is a road to "thought crime" tyranny that is unfolding already in Europe and Canada.
2) It Is Not Needed. - Every state legal code already protects men and women, whatever their "actual or perceived … sexual orientation," against criminal assault. There is no hate-crime "epidemic" in America. The FBI reports that so-called hate crimes, which are difficult to identify because only God can know the human heart, are a tiny fraction of all crimes.
3) It Puts Pastors At Risk For Prosecution. - Anyone, including pastors, can be accused of creating a "climate of hate" that leads to violence—merely for speaking biblical truth. Under Pennsylvania’s hate crimes law, 11 Christians were arrested and jailed in 2004 for preaching the gospel at a Philadelphia homosexual street festival. Rep. Louie Gohmert (R-Texas), a former judge, said that under this federal bill, clergymen and others could be charged with encouraging or inducing a "hate crime" if they preach against homosexuality.
4) It Writes Inequality Into the Law. - The hate crimes bill before the Senate gives special legal protection to persons who are lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgendered by making crimes against them more heavily punished than the same crime against a child, a pregnant woman, or the elderly.
Therefore, I recommend that you vote "No", on S.909.

How it works
something that marginally improves your quality of life costs a dollar. The govt decides that it's worth so much that they will help pay for it. Say they kick in a dollar. The people who sold it to you before the govt intervention knew that you were willing to pay a dollar for it and are guaranteed that much already due to the intervention. they kick the price up to a dollar and a half. Then the govt decides that this thing is so valuable that they will kick in another......You get it.

Something's Fishy
Back when I was employed & before I was run out two yrs ago, my long-time company was bought & the new employer started outsourcing our jobs to India. We heard that a HIGH percentage of Indians were college grads (I think it's 'free' there), BUT NO JOBS for them. U.S. co's gave them low pay but lovely work 'campuses.' Who hasn't called cable or other co & spoken with someone in Bombay? Yeah...
Several yrs ago increasing ads appeared for more & more 'colleges' springing up like mushrooms & seductions that "you'll make a $Million more with a degree!" 100X a day I hear pundits of all kinds speak of college funds, a budget must item for 'good' parents or you don't love your kiddies! NOW, JUST HOW MANY poor saps are up to their necks in college debt / graduate to find few jobs or pay well below what they'd expected / are postponing marriage and/or children due to debt / degrees are in Black or Women's Studies - worthless toward real world employment? Have you priced a Training Course (like Medical Assistant or Truck Driver) lately? Ridiculous. (Those costs have been driven up by 'demand.')

I believe it's a conspiracy by leftists TO FUND THEIR BUDDIES - leftist professors/administrators who contribute to societal ignorance. Have you any idea how well-paid professors are these days? How well endowed universities are but still getting govt funding? (reminds one of PBS tv) Loans are protected; rates can be raised, often subject to 'first in line for payoffs' (no restructuring, no putting under bankruptcy) if you default. The govt will not be sympathetic.
Affirmative action skews entry; no matter how hard you work to deserve it that's not how it works now. Innovators should take us back to apprenticeships - But I forgot, there's so much required licensing, regulation, & lawsuits now. HS's bring back Tech Ed - no funding for THAT! AARGH!

No Birth Certificcate / No Peace!
The drum beat is heating up for Obama to prove - once and for all - that he IS a NATURAL BORN US CITIZEN.

Watch and listen as more and more average Americans debate the unanswered questions about the FAKE POTUS citizenship status ...

go here ...

http://www.ketknbc.com/news/politics/ktbbs-question-day-is- there-enough-proof-president-obama-a-us-citizen

Where's the Birth Certificate?

Where's his college records?

Where's his passport records?

If you are a witness to Obama's birth, then YOU can make an EASY $10,000 by going here ...

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId= 101892

WHERE'S THE BIRTH CERTIFICATE?

USPatriot56

The Millionaire Next Door
The two authors studied the attitudes and backgrounds of hundreds of millionaires and discovered that most of them do not have a college education, own their own businesses, and did not inherit their wealth.

It seems that the more education one has the more likely one will be poor, or not very wealthy.






Enslavement by Degrees
I'm surprised Dr. Sowell hasn't mentioned the supply & demand aspect of degrees, either.

Reminds me of what a dear friend born & raised in south Korea told me: in the late '80's PhD's drove taxicabs in Seoul because they far outnumbered the actual jobs in their fields.

Yes, these slogans are all about growing empires & acquiring power. Kind of like the yammering about increasing voter turnout without really motivating the electorate to inform themselves & participate (or even ensuring the voters are eligible & only vote once).

The priests of the Anthrogenic CO2 Induced Climate Change dogma have concocted totally arbitrary emissions reduction goals expressed as CO2 emission in some prior year. They do not express their goals in terms of what the science says is the optimum or maximum atmospheric CO2 concentration or temperature (or how you measure & express them) because the science wasn't really done & therefore the bought-off PhD's & their masters can't tell us what those numbers might be or base policy on them.

Sorry NotMyPrez
Sorry, your mistake is your assumption that "A transcript or letter of completion from your nursing education program." equals a degree.

Since we discussed this yesterday, when I saw my friend the newly-minted RN, I confirmed with him the basics of what I said.

A "nursing education program" does not necessarily produce a degree. Passing your Boards is the *real* requirement, not getting a degree. There are a number of such programs around here that are specialized schools, not colleges.

No "grandfathering" required.

Burglaries in England
Many suggest that the behavior describe in your excellent article can be attributed to British "gun laws" and the prohibition of all firearms by private citizens. Hence burglars or other force entrants have nothing serious to fear when they break into home, something often do knowing the occupants will see them.

It is now know that during WWII the Japanese never considered invading America as they knew, in addition to the military most of the citizens would bear arms of some kind constituting an additional very serious adversary.

Please recall a few years ago when muggings and assault were so frequent in Florida. The authorities urged women to go to local police stations or other approved place, learn the proper use of hand guns, get one and carry it. The effect with this knowledge "going public" dramatically decreased at least that type of crime.

Of course the anti-gun people, like parents spanking (oops) an errant child, are doing it for our good; there couldn't be any more sinister motive, could there?

Thanks for considering this post.
Butch

Common Sense
Sowell's common sense is always refreshing. College education is not an inalienable right, or a right determined by our Constitution. The opportunity for college should be there for all if they're intellectually qualified... but it should come with hard work and sacrifice and is solely the responsiblity of the individual.

Cheers,
Jason
http://patriotsmind.com

Monument
I'd like to erect a monument or historical marker at our President's place of birth similar to what has been done to the other Presidents. Can anyone direct me to where it is?

Our elected officials...
...all have great educations and they're still intellectually challenged. They seem to ignore the lessons of history, don't seem to learn from the mistakes of others, or from their own.

There's more to it then just getting a degree. How about some intellectual honesty, elbow grease, and not insisting on a repeat of the same failed policies...like health care. Wherever national health care has been implemented it has become more expensive with less available care.

Good article
What can a country say when it graduates only 60% of its high school students? Not much.... It is happening now in the USA. Shameful!

Another Set Aside!
That's what this is just another set aside, How much you want to bet this is done in the name of "Diversity". There is a poll or survey somewhere that says minority graduations are down, if you're not into polls and surveys, just go to a commencement and count the Black Faces. As for Hispanics that'll be a little tougher.
Then again counting the Black Faces, among them will be African, East and West Indian students which breaks it down even further.
At historically all Black Universities the situation is dire more Black Women graduate than men up to four or five to one in some cases but the drop out rate is still high.
There is stat I just found out about that I consider troubling, white men who attend historically Black Schools graduate at a higher rate than Black Men attending the same school.
It's kinda tough to focus when you're backing that butt up and partying I guess.

To Fantasy Control inTX

Playing with the sulfur? Methinks he's been sniffing the sulfur.

Obama is suppose to be a smart feller but if he keeps playing with it he'll end up being just a fart smeller.

To Soliton in MI
One last thing:

I never responded to your comment about living in the past.

I was fortunate enough to retire in September of last year at the ripe old age of 53 thanks to shrewd investments & stock options (and cashing out before the stock market crashed last year!)
So yes, In retrospect I am living in the past;
a very recent past. But I'm not that out of touch yet. As a now self employed consultant in the field of satellite communications systems, I still attend the various trade shows and seminars to stay in touch with my colleagues and discuss the many issues that impact our field.

Excellent Essay, Dr. Sowell!!
I recently read a comment here on TH addressing the Percentage of High School Graduates going onto College.. This individual opined that, as I recall, "Only 15-20 percent" of these young folks should be ALLOWED entry or words to that effect.. I'm not certain I would agree with that percentage, but I do emphatically agree that FAR TOO MANY do end up *in the wrong place at the wrong time*. I truly believe, and have seen first hand, that Trade School Education(s) may be just the Preferred Course of Study for some Younger Folk..

time with your "Gems."


Richard Location: CA
Reply # 123
Date: Jun 24, 2009 - 11:06 PM EST
OK Jim...
Here's a reply. You took some time with your "Gems." The problem? They have nothing to do with the "thread," which is "supposed" to be full of comments, and counter-comments about Mr. Sowell's article.
============

Me: I have hundreds of them on my Web Site, travel-tidbits.com, some of them are 50 years old.

Make a count of the Replies in any day on TH, and let me know how many are about the “thread.”

=======

You: I'll say this. I've got a hunch your "Sweetie" is still sweet on you.

Me: I sure hope so, the sign on her “office door” says, “Now the Angels have a Role Model.”



55 percent college degreed means.....
That college degrees become what high school used to be. The general population didn't get smarter by decree. In many high schools every student must take a class called calculus to graduate. Notice I said "a class CALLED Calculus". Do you know what they TEACH in that class? 8th grade math.

OK Jim...
Here's a reply. You took some time with your "Gems." The problem? They have nothing to do with the "thread," which is "supposed" to be full of comments, and counter-comments about Mr. Sowell's article.

I'll say this. I've got a hunch your "Sweetie" is still sweet on you.

Lost all respect for Higher Education
I have lost all respect for Higher Education. I spent 20 years in higher education swimming upstream against such things as this. I was not very popular, but I kept doing what I thought was right. I made very few dents in this crazy march of higher education to create an even bigger empire! In the state I worked there were several good and well funded "A" educational programs. But not at the University I worked. I thought it a great waste of taxpayers money to start another "A" program at my University duplicating existing programs. I was told I was not loyal to "my" University. I told them I was paid by the state taxpayers by not "my" university and thus my loyalty was to these taxpayers. Needless to say, I had to find a position at another University. So much for freedom of speech and doing the right things right!

Everyone Ready For July 4th Rally?
Is Everyone Ready For July 4th Rally?
Bigger and better organized than the April 15th Tax Day Tea Protest Rallies all across America, another round of tea is scheduled for July 4th. Find out when and where your local rally is, make your posters, bring your friends and families.

The Silent Majority needs to start speaking loudly and stomp it's mighty boot down. Our leaders have forgotten that they answer to US, not the other way around. July 4th seems an appropriate day to declare our independence, again. Americans need to speak up now, while they still can.

Absolute Necessity
All of our young people need to attend college, how else are they going to learn to read, write and do simple math?

Ooops - NOT LIBERALS
I goofed - had libersls on my mind.

Schools should get no help unless half the staff are conservative - half already are liberals.

Sorry for th gaff

Univerisities ?
I should think professions like engineering, science, architecture, etc are pretty good bets for having useful, interested students.

I have no numbers, but I'd think the majority of disinterested kids are in Business and law - because those kids are looking for money and only learn what they absolutely must to get a degree.

Then there are the teachers.

If our universities weren't overwhelmingly left wing - especially in liberal arts (courses which teachers must take - English 101, for example), then I'd give this category a high five, hoping they would add to the education and values of our country.

However, the courses are so left-wing that the young students and indoctrinated. And - the problem is - most are too young and innocent of a good background to know the difference, to know they are being used to subvert our country.

There are still many good teachers who have some idea of what our constitution says and means.

There are many more who are idealogues (to the left) and want to "teach" their trash.

Aside from things that ought to be taught by parents, I woud have no objection to a (truthful) discussion of left wing policies along with a fair discussion of constitutional policies.

Our constitution can hold its own when truth is the tool.

We need to stop assisting left wing schools until they at least have half their staff as liberals.

notyerprez
yer girlfriend may beg to differ, but a "college degree," to most, means a degree from a four year school.

Central Ohio Technical College,
Associate Degree, Registered Nurse
Technology Program
1179 University Drive
Newark, OH 43055-1767
(740) 366-9285
Approval Status: FULL

Nothing wrong with an AA. It's a degree. It comes from a college. It's sort of like Dr. Jill Biden calling herself Doctor. The word means something. As does "college degree."

What do you think?


jim Location: CA
Reply # 25
Date: Jun 24, 2009 - 2:53 PM EST
=============

I guess I must write something nasty to get a response.

NBC wonders about Obama's birth!
Little by little, with the help of WND, Dr. Orly Taitz, and millions of regular Americans the unanswered questions about where Obama's birth are beginning to emerge on MSM outlets like NBC affiliate KTBB in EAST TEXAS.

Watch and listen as KTBB listeners wonder aloud if Obama is really a NATURAL BORN US CITIZEN or a common fraud.

go here ...

http://www.ketknbc.com/news/politics/ktbbs-question-day-is- there-enough-proof-president-obama-a-us-citizen

Where's the birth certificate?

USPatriot56

Sir Michael,
Ok, since I'm not the nurse in the family, I read your post to my girlfriend, and she begs to differ.

Looking at the application to become a licensed RN in the state of Ohio, one of the items required is "A transcript or letter of completion from your nursing education program." In other words, your degree. There are some older nurses that were grandfathered in before this requirement, but they would not be able to take their grandfathered license from Ohio and go to any other state. Conversely, anyone from another state that has grandfathered licenses would not be able to go to Ohio and get an Ohio license.
This is directly from a licensed traveling RN, who has to be able to show her degree and transcripts to a variety of states that she might want to travel to. The other people who wear scrubs at hospitals and have no degree are nurse's aids, housekeeping, etc.

if only...
more people would approach life with Sowell's rational thinking. And, I wish that just a few of them would run for public office.

Terry in Georgia...
..greetings from a fellow Georgian...

" I'm a ramblin' wreck from Georgia Tech and a h*lluva engineer...

...a h*lluva, h*lluva, h*lluva engineer...

...like all of my jolly good fellows, I drink my whiskey clear...

I'm a ramblin" wreck from Gerogia Tech and a h*lluva an engineer...

Well, I wish I had a daughter, sir, I'd dres her is White and Gold...

...and put her on the campus, sir, to cheer the brave and bold...

...but if I ahad a son, sir, I'll tell you what he'd do...

...he'd yell "TO H*LL WITH GEORGIA" like his daddy used to do...

Well, I wish I had a barrel of rum and of sugar three thousand pounds, a college bell to put it in and a clapper to stir it around....

...I'd drink to all the good fellows, who come from far and near...

I'm a ramblin', gamblin', h*lluva engineer...

--------

Number one conference 3 or last 4 years in NFL draftees? ACC

Nummber of Tech alumni who have been to the moon? Four.

Number of UGA grads (or any other SEC "institution" who have been to the moon? Zero.

"The only good "dawg" is a dead "dawg"!

Pop quiz...what does a UGa grad call a Tech grad twenty years after graduation?

Answer....BOSS!!!

Go Jackets...

Your Obedient Servant,

George Washington

P.S. I guess you know who the Heisman trophy is named for...
















Soliton in MI

>I think you underestimate the training and capabilities of american trained engineers-I find no difference in performance or training in basics. Maybe you should've been more discerning in your interviews.<

I am not knocking American trained engineers (I'm one myself.) On paper, most foreign born engineers go through a more rigorous math, chemistry & physics curriculum than a lot of American colleges require. Does that make them better engineers? Interestingly, no. In my experience, American trained engineers are more imaginative & innovative and willing to take risks. I value those characteristics more than what one's transcripts says. So I'll with on that point but for the reasons I've indicated above.


>Yeah, but the topic was seemingly innovation and product development, hence R&D. I make no claim engineers in testing and production.<

Ditto

>Actually, I understand the inner workings quite well. You seem to be living in the past.<

As much as possible, I stayed away from management and preferred the lab environment so I'll cede that point to you. But do not discount the fact that American colleges & universities are not turning out enough engineers & scientists.

Why, what liberalism has done to our educational system, it's a wonder that kids today even go into the science and engineering professions.


>As far as the " liberal mind set" you allude to--an interesting comment, I've never been accused of that before!<

My dear colleague, I am not accusing you of having a liberal mind set. Only to be mindful and aware so as not to fall into the liberal mind set of seeking easy answers to complex issues.

On the surface, what you say is seemingly true but there's more to it than companies just wanting skilled but cheap labor.

What's driving this trend? Therein lays the real answers.

Want and EASY $10,000?
Come on all you Obama lovers! Step up to the plate. Surely ONE of you, somewhere on this planet can prove that Obama is who he says he is .... because he can't ... or won't ... hmmmm I wonder why ...

NEWS Flash ....

Want $10,000?
WASHINGTON – WND Editor and Chief Executive Officer Joseph Farah is offering a $10,000 reward to anyone who can prove he or she was present at the birth of Barack Obama – and he's asking Americans to donate to the cause in hopes of raising the bounty to an irresistible amount.

Go here and make an easy $10,000 ...

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId= 101892

WHERE"S THE BIRTH CERTIFICATE?

USPatriot56

Talking About Exercises
In futility, your article really pointed that out! I just received an email from Move America Forward about the Troopathon. The list of well known Celebrities was bursting at the seems. I couldn't help but notice that the Yale Graduates were there, but the Harvard Graduates, especially the one in the White House and Commander In Chief were not on the Celeb' list to support the Troops. I also noticed none of the Celebs were African Americans. Perhaps you are right, more education "without any corresponding benefits".

Robert in CA
Having hired engineers and scientitsts (both foreign trained and domestic)and evaluated them as a manager, I think you underestimate the training and capabilities of american trained engineers-I find no difference in performance or training in basics. Maybe you should've been more discerning in your interviews.


>All the really cool jobs in engineering are >not necessarily in R&D. That's just hyperbole >about what one can or should do with an >engineering degree. Not all engineers work in >R&D.

Yeah, but the topic was seemingly innovation and product development, hence R&D. I make no claim engineers in testing and production.


>You comment about U.S. businesses wanting low >payed engineers is rather disingenuous and >shows a lack of understanding of why U.S. >companies hire so many foreign born engineers.

Actually, I understand the inner workings quite well. You seem to be living in the past.


As far as the " liberal mind set" you allude to--an interesting comment, I've never been accused of that before!

To Retired Geek in VA

Yes we do.

Here's a few for you:

Diode rectifier: aka, diode "rectum fryer."
Black box input/output: "gozinto/gozoutta"

And of course, all electronic devices all filled with smoke. If you let the smoke out, they stop working!

Cheers

close parentheses
x2

My Outrage when funding was eliminated

Our children are being destroyed, especially black children and 'All For the Common Good'.

Democrats NOT ONLY inserted pork into the budget, they want to REMOVE the funding for parents to be able to enroll their children in the International School in Washington, DC.

This school has proven that any child can succeed in that school - ghetto children, children from broken homes etc.

How dare those cruel, mean spirited Liberals, deny a child a chance to break free from poverty and leave the Government projects.

HOW DARE THEY!!

Those children's parents cannot afford the Sidwell Friends Academy.

Democrats and Liberals wanting to keep these children from a chance of breaking free and becoming successful is a disgrace and an outrage!!

Liberals and Democrats are some of the most cruel and mean spirited people on the Planet, when they are trying to tear down everything good in America and install Obamunism.

We should all remember
the masters of the universe who caused the credit crunch and housing collapse were mostly college-eduated Dimwits:

Most of the people who brought about the housing collapse and developing the credit crunch of 2007 were Democrats (even the Wall Streeters, who are too often associated with the Republicans):

AIG’s Joseph Cassano donated exclusively to Democrats.

Countrywide’s Angelo Mozillo is a Democrat who gave sweetheart loan deals to Democratic Senator Chris Dodd (CT), chair of Senate Banking Committee, and Democratic Senator Kent Conrad (ND) chair of the Senate Budget Committee, and a Barack Hussein Obama campaign aid, Jim Johnson, left his position for being a “friend of Angelo.”

Fannie Mae ‘s (created by President Johnson and Democrats to help low-income debtors buy houses) Frank Raines is a Democrat who received $20,000,000 in bonuses alone from Fannie Mae and then moved on the be an economic adviser to Barack Hussein Obama’s campaign.

Fannie Mae’s Daniel Mudd, a Republican appointee in 2005 to replace Frank Raines, claimed in a video in 2005 that Democrats were his “family,” especially Barack Obama.
Bear Stearn’s Jim Cramer is/was a life-long Democrat.

Blame placed on Republicans and/or conservatives for Wall Street’s financial problems were mostly generated by Democratic Party members and

Democratic banking regulations: Freddie Mac (President FDR and the Democratic Congress of 1938), Fannie Mae, and the Community Redevelopment Acts of 1977 (President Carter and a Democratic Congress) and 1992 (President Clinton and a Democratic Congress).

I would never say that both political parties’ representatives did not do their utmost to damage American Financial institutions over a long period of time, but people should know the individuals mentioned above are all Dems.


Dang!
Another post off in the ether.

1. Larry Ellison. (cf. Gates, & Dell.

2. Shoot the spam plastering troll from Louisiana.

3. Just committed to 100K over the next four years so my kid can get a degree from Gallatin school of individualized study at NYU.

4. Paul Thomas Anderson, ("Boogie Nights," "Magnolia," "There Will be Blood" dropped out of NYU after two days.

5. His choice, my choice...the next eight years of indebtedness to Wells Fargo, anyway..., not yours, or the federal government's.

N'cest pas?

Robert from CA

I have the same issue with writing.

I have spent almost my entire life communicating with machines, rather than humans.

Someone complained about my 'Lack of Polish' in English grammar and I posted some of my software routines and asked them if the syntax was correct.

Anyway, usually these are the same people that think a 'Common Language' in America is not necessary.

I said to a Liberal one day: "Just think, I am one of the ones that you have to depend on to write and operate your communication systems - that should make you sleep good tonight."

Us technical geeks have to stick together.

PS

To the English teachers in this forum:
Please don't think less of me because of a few
grammatical errors in anything I've posted thus far. I write what I'm thinking at the moment and don't always proof read what I write before posting it.

I've written many technical papers and documents over the course of my career and I assure you that I am proficient at writing in a clear, coherent and concise way. If only this thing doggone think used Microsoft Word...

ILuvSnoopy
I don't know how charter schools operate in other places,but I believe they have oversite just like the other schools.

One charter school in Augusta almost always ranks among the highest ,academically, in the state. They only take students who want to learn,as opposed to the government schools who must accept everyone.

If unions start meddling with the curriculum and teachers,the charter schools will be no better than the mediocre government schools.

obama is all about giving away

the money of his opponents to his supporters.

obama is having a grand old time spending and giving away our money.

The most galling thing is that he is not even an American citizen.

the American people electing a foreigner to serve as POTUS without even knowing they did so is the best argument I have seen for limiting the franchise.

roy Jun 24, 2009 - 8:27 AM EST
"training produces manageable "citizens" - useful idiots.

education is liberating, and does not cost anything except the time and attention of the student."

"Does not cost anything" eh? Tell my wallet that after paying off the student loans.

Your other statements may be accurate regarding training=useful idiots and education=liberation, unfortunatly they refer to the Platonic ideal and not what they generally refer to in today's world. Most "education" in colleges seems to be training in how to think "progressively"

NavyBrat
There are several teams I want to see lose every week, PSU, Michigan, Ohio State, Notre Dame, any team playing the Longhorns, and of course any team playing SFA.

Out of One, Many -> Liberal Goal

E Pluribus Unum describes an action: Many uniting into one. An accurate translation of the motto is "Out of many, one".

Liberals have redefined our 'Motto' to - 'Out of One, many'.

The basic reason America was formed, was that any member of the Human Race could find a place to live in Freedom, worship without fear of recrimination, pursue self determination and the pursuit of Life and the pursuit of personal happiness.

The notion that the 'assimilation' of all races and creeds would bring a 'conformity' to these goals set forth by our 'Founding Fathers', has made Liberals insane with rage.

Conformity to these goals becomes Anathema to Liberals, or cursed and devoted to evil.

Diversity to a Liberal, is NOT the assimilation of diversity into the common purpose of becoming 'One out of Many', but rather the fracturing and splintering of Unity into incoherence, without clarity or purpose.

Barack Obama is the Liberal Messiah of this cause.

It has been said
education starts after public school.

Instead fo college, lets get kids out of school 50% faster . . . like, at the end of the 8th grade.

Terry in GA:
"All Universities should be shutdown...
...except those that have football teams. In the Southeastern Conference."

For someone from Bulldog country, you have uncommon clarity of thinking. This UT Vols fan agrees WHOLEHEARTEDLY with you!!!

PS. I think we kinda need to keep the Big 10, too. Ohio State is my 2nd favorite team, & I love seeing them throttle Michigan lately.

Robert from CA et al

Robert wrote: "A college degree is no guarantee of success and it is no substitute for motivation and desire."

Great insight!

Congratulations on your success and tenacity!

Self determination, motivation and desire IS a guarantee of success, or at least great personal satisfaction.

Terry in GA:
"All Universities should be shutdown...
...except those that have football teams. In the Southeastern Conference."

For someone from Bulldog country, you have uncommon clarity of thinking (hehehehe). This UT Vol fan agrees WHOLEHEARTEDLY with you!!!

PS. You kinda have to leave the Big 10 in there, too. Ohio State is my 2nd favorite team.

Writing Gems, just for fun

=========================
The eye can see and The heart can love, What the word cannot describe.
=========================
You must demand some reasonable association between effort and excitement.
=========================
When my Sweetie complained about my narrow taste in food, politics, books, etc., I just reminded her of my extremely narrow taste in Women.
=========================
Wouldn't you rather trust everyone all of the time and be wrong once in a while, than trust no one at any time, and be right once in a while.
=========================
Your spirit of adventure will be modified by your gumption for walking.
=========================
A picture is worth a thousand words. A visit is worth a thousand pictures. The video is priceless.
=========================
A vacation is not a destination, it's the Journey. Turn here, explore there, relax and enjoy.
=========================
Alzheimer's is the disease where the caretaker suffers more than the patient.
=========================
The best diagnosis for my problem is “Eightyitis.”
=========================
THE RIGHTS, THE DUTIES, AND THE PRIVILEGES PROTECTED AND GUARANTEED BY THIS SOCIETY, DO NOT (AND MUST NEVER) INCLUDE THE RIGHT TO DESTROY THIS SOCIETY!
=========================
The shopping rule was; “If my Sweetie wants it, I will buy it.
=========================
There's nothing more beautiful than a beautiful lady. The less the clothes, the more the beauty.
=========================
At some places we keep taking pictures because it is so beautiful. At other places, because it is so terrible
=========================
Curiosity as to how people live and work, is just as intelligent as the curiosity that leads to the study of the contents of an art museum.
=========================

Four-Year College is Overrated
Expanding opportunities for professional licenses in community college programs might be a worthy expansion of education spending. However, we don't need a growing army of majors in Art, Chick Studies, Gay Studies or any of the other fairly worthless degree programs offered at many universities. Too many people are getting into college with dubious credentials and graduating with worthless degrees. We need to teach young people to work smarter rather than subject themselves to years of mind-numbing indoctrination in Leftist values.

edgycater.blogspot.com

Colleged Degrees ARE Over rated
FWIW:

I graduated from an inner-city high school where everyone was inculcated with goals that did not include higher education [college].

Not being satisfied with pumping gas for a living, I enlisted in the Navy 3 months after graduating from HS.

I scored the 4th highest score on the basic aptitude test and was shipped of to the Navy
A school for electronics training.

During my last year of active duty, I took night classes at the local Jr. College. Upon being released from active duty, I enrolled in a Jr. college in my home town where I earned an AS degree in electronics with a 3.8 grade average.

After getting a job with my AS degree and working for about a year, I quit and enrolled in a local state University where I majored in EE and minored in applied math and graduated in 2 years later.

Those who say college isn't for everyone are quite correct. It took a little growing up
and an extended "site seeing tour" for me to realize that in order to pursue a career that I had the talent and passion for, I needed a college degree.

I have met many people who have never attend college per se but have gone to a trade school or receive occupational training who are just as successful as anyone in their own right as anyone who did go to college.

A college degree is no guarantee of success and it is no substitute for motivation and desire.

What's needed in this country is a 2-track system. One for those who are truly college material and one for those who simply want to learn an occupation.

Equality should be about opportunity and not outcome. Liberals place far to much emphasis on outcome with the net result of equally stupid people.

How else do you explain people who voted for Obama (or Barack 'The Merciful' Skyhook Obama as I affectionate like to call him.)

Cheers



Want $10,000?
WASHINGTON – WND Editor and Chief Executive Officer Joseph Farah is offering a $10,000 reward to anyone who can prove he or she was present at the birth of Barack Obama – and he's asking Americans to donate to the cause in hopes of raising the bounty to an irresistible amount.

Go here and make an easy $10,000 ...

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId= 101892

WHERE"S THE BIRTH CERTIFICATE?

USPatriot56

The best way to do college
in my not-so-humble-opinion is like my brother Bob did at Akron U. when he was becoming an electical (power) engineer. After the basic "required" courses (read english lit and such) he started a co-op program in which he worked one semester and went to school the next, year round. He had hands-on experience with what he was learning in school and also making money in which he paid for school. When he graduated, he had an education with experience and a work history.

He has never had a problem with employment and is a Professional Engineer.

More of the "education" system should do these types of programs, and could if they wanted to. I would guess that they would have to give up too much authority and control of the students to do this. OTOH, the "education" schools do something similar, except the "student teachers" are slave labor and are graded on their work. Of course, the dimmmest bulbs I ever knew were ed majors, though I have know a few bright dedicated teachers to prove the rule.

Part of this
is the great debate about what "education" is and for. Is it traing for a job? Is it to enlighten the individual generally so he/she may be a good productive citizen with some foundation of knowledge to cope with the world and have some basis of judgement? Some of both? To those the come down firmly on one "side" the answers to education questions are obvious and the other side is insane, and vice-versa.

IMNSHO, education should be both. The later is unfortunately given short shrift as liberal indoctrination has taken over much of what is called "education" these days.

We need both able people in the workforce and citizen educated in civics, history, and basic math and science. The lack of knowledge and understanding of our system of government and our nation's history by the electorate is appalling. This is readily apparent when you look at comments about the Elctoral College or hear how the President did this or will do that and why didn't the President fix something, when none of the things discussed are in his power. Without basic math and science skills, you get suckers for every pseudo-scientific argument going, like global warming.

We need an educated citizen, and with the pace of change in the modern world, there is some basis to "life-long learning" as an educational philosophy for employment.

All Universities should be shutdown...
...except those that have football teams. In the Southeastern Conference.

Other than that, I can't see much purpose in keeping these Universities around.

Re: Rush!!!
This is one big bilge, the Porkulus Bill is one big lie after another and for anyone who thought that it was meant to work you were and still are drinking Kool-ade!!! This was nothing more than a great big spending bill for the liberals who wanted 30 yrs of pork piled on at one time!!! This is a crock and for anyone who has half a brain would and should be figure this out!!!

High School Diploma
Once upon a time a high school diploma actually meant something. It meant that the person holding it knew more that the present day college graduate. People respected the diploma and many businesses required one in order to obtain a position in the company.
Caring, loving, compassionate Liberals thought this was mean and deprived those without diplomas equal jobs. They pushed through the policies that ended up in illiterate, ignorant, unmotivated people getting a high school diploma. The result destroyed the value of one. As a result, business now require college degrees to obtain a position. The Left are now working on destroying what little value these have.
Get these Marxist out of our schools, jobs, government. . . . Since we are at it, get these anti-American Marxist out of our country.

When Warren Buffett Speaks

Everyone should listen, but no one in Washington does.

He just said that the economy is in shambles and that there is no sight of recovery in sight.

No one is driving the GM-made car over the cliff.

J. Howard @ 10:05
The reference to T. Boone Pickens and his energy plan seems to be off-thread, but, since you brought it up: while there is something to be said for exploring all alternative sources for energy, there is evidence Mr. Pickens may not be quite so altruistic. He stands to make a lot of money off his plan, and he has pulled some shenanigans with the Texas legislature and Texas law to get himself some favorable treatment. Apparently, he is after water and eminent domain. Run a Google search on him and his water district in Roberts County. He's got enough money to hire the best PR firms.

Supply > Demand
From what I can see, everyone (with a few exceptions) who wants and is qualified to get a college degree, has or will have one. Where are the un-served/underserved students?

The men who built my house (I'm not sexist--there simply weren't any women) seemed to be doing what they wanted to do. Of those I spoke to, none said, "I was denied a college education." However, many wanted to climb the hierarchy of their profession, leading to business ownership or becoming independent homebuilders.

In the end, I believe the people who WANT to go to college DO go; sometimes after high school and sometimes (like me), later in life. The people who truly need an education are the ones believing we would be a better nation if we had more diplomas.

Rockymtnrick, MA, BSEE

Theater Of The Absurd...
Mass. is housing
homeless in motels
Costing tax payers around $2 million
per month
Updated: Wednesday, 24 Jun 2009, 9:24 AM EDT
Published : Wednesday, 24 Jun 2009, 9:15 AM EDT

Bruce Morin
MASSACHUSETTS (WPRI) - A record number of families are being put up in motels in Massachusetts. High unemployment and the rising number of home foreclosures is the reason the state is taking this action.

Housing Massachusetts’ homeless is costing tax payers around $2 million per month. It costs an average of $85 per night to have families, including nearly 1000 children, stay in motels.

The Interagency Council on Housing and Homelessness admits that the use of motels for the homeless is not ideal, but is the best that can be done at this time.

Homeless advocates are worried that families are not getting the support of shelters with living rooms, kitchens, and play areas.

Where's The Exit Strategy?

On the Federal Reserve?

On both wars?

On Cap-n-Tax?

On ObamaCare, whose namesake has suggested that he would create a Solomonic Board will determine what quanity and how often?

Obama has even evolved on mandates that you MUST buy their own insurance plan.

Economics, my dear, ECONOMICS!

Anyone with an interest in the Physical
sciences (and the gray matter to back that interest up) should be encouraged to attend college--the social sciences are another
consideration.
Having controlled the academic community since the 60s, Political leftists reject the morality and wisdom derived from religion and Greek philosophy: a rejection that has
directly or indirectly encouraged out-of-wedlock births, welfare dependence, uncontrolled spending, the erosion of
the constitution, and a form of naive pacifism In spite of their numerous failures to "make all ment equal" (the basic goal of all Marxists), they pursue one folly after another with egotistical bragadocia.
Any one accurately describing these naked emperors is accused of being ant-intellectual, but a more proper term would be pro-common-sense

A degree!
Uncle Tommy,I believe everyone should get a college degree so they can stand in the unemployment line with all the other unemployed whose jobs have been outsourced to 3rd World Countries!

In addition
In my experience, skilled tradesmen such as electricians and plumbers, for example, make more money that college grads with random degrees in English or Philosophy do. That's especially true when the tradesmen are self-employed, and even more especially true when the college grads attended J. Random U. On top of that, the tradesmen aren't saddled with tens of thousands of dollars of college loan debt.

Yes, we need engineers, and yes, the only place to learn engineering is in college, but overall, we need less people with degrees and more people with skills.

Actually NotMyPrez
A college degree is not required in Ohio to become a Registered Nurse. I specify Ohio becasue I don't know how universal this is. While earning a Bachelor's Degree with the Registered Nurse certification is common, it is not a requirement for the RN. Licensed Practical Nurse is often earned with an Associate Degree, but this was also not a requirement the last I heard. There is a "pendelum swing" type of changes historically around here in the medical field - first wanting all RNs and advertising a "more professional staff" and then wanting to reduce costs and so returning to hiring LPNs. It is not uncommon to know LPNs working to become RNs and for RNs to seek the Bachelor Degree. It is also not uncommon to know of nurses out the the medical field.

I have heard about a nursing shortage over various periods of time, but I note that these tend to be "hire only RN" periods. Also, it seems many RNs are not working as nurses, even if they are still in a "medical" field, like "Quality Care" or some such thing.

Balanced Mind Not So...
Balanced.

Study of literature and history "useless" and "retarded"? Seems a tad narrow-minded. Are you really an engineer? Or just one of those "company computer guys" we've all had the unfortunate experience of working with?

Obama Seriously Disturbed
We need to make sure that bloggers like this guy are showcased, as he puts a daily beatdown on Obama and the Dems. http://www.theblacksphere.net! FUNNY, satirical writing of the highest order.

Another point of view
As a retired community college instructor in NoCarolina, I have been a staunch advocate of community colleges. It is a great place to learn to go to college at an affordable price. I always encouraged my students to take the "college transferable" courses,live at home, keep your part-time job, if you have one and transfer at the end of the sophomore year. Many find a career path to begin and others either transfer or decide that a 2 yr. degree is adequate for the time being. It is my opinion that many students in 4 year colleges and universities accrue massive student loan debt and thus delay entering the workforce and repayment of the loans by going on to graduate school.

Reply to reply #22
As a recently retired Sr. Staff Engineer who's
been in a position to interview and hire new engineers, I've found that most foreign born engineers have better training in the fundamentals of science than most colleges in the U.S. There are exceptions though (e.g., Cal-Tech, MIT, etc.)

All the really cool jobs in engineering are not necessarily in R&D. That's just hyperbole about what one can or should do with an engineering degree. Not all engineers work in R&D. That's a fact.

You comment about U.S. businesses wanting low payed engineers is rather disingenuous and shows a lack of understanding of why U.S. companies hire so many foreign born engineers.

However, given the liberal mind-set that's prevalent today and how they are so easily pacified with simple answers, I can understand how and why you made your comments.



APLGU not altogether wrong.
The Association of Public and Land Grant Universities ("APLGU") isn't necessarily altogether wrong on the number of college grads America needs. APLGU went way wrong in the way picked its magic number.

Instead of asking the questions "What skill sets do (or, maybe better still, should) a college degree evidence?" and "How many people possessing those skill sets does American society need?," APLGU asked the question "How many kids in other countries graduate from college?"

APLGU, too, has a big dog in the fight. As gross numbers of college age students decline, the only way APLGU member institutions can continue growing their administrative and faculty budgets is by increasing the percentages of American students attending its colleges. For this reason, alone, APLGU's assertions should be taken by everyone, especially by government, with a huge grain of salt.

Probably the easiest way to attain a blind numeric goal such as 55 percent ought to have college degrees is to continue deflating what it means to have a college degree. It's easy to increase the granting of baccalaureate degrees in pursuits that didn't require a bachelors degree in the past.

The basics
Just come out of high school with reading, writing, speaking and math apptitude.

Read, read, read.

You will get more intelligent. You will learn how to THINK.

Go to college with a slight clue as to what you want to do or be.

I hate goverment programs where something is to be accomplished by 2025. Who cares.

Dr. Sowell says II ...
The above approach would deliver the best results because it would involve the people at the lowest level in making educational decisions and it would fill real need in society. The involvement of government would necessarily be minimized by removing it from funding beyond eighth grade. The decisions about high school would be made by the student and parents and advanced degrees would be funded by need coming from industry and independent societies representing different disciplines that benefit our society.

The impact on society would be a much smaller high school and a greatly reduced College system which overall would reduce the cost of education drastically. And therein lays the problem. The government would fight it, the Teachers union would fight it, the existing High Schools would fight it and the existing Colleges would fight it.

Dr. Sowell says ....
'Given the composition of the population as it is-- which is always what we have to start with-- what evidence is there that too few or too many are going to college?'

Much the same could be said about high school education. How many students are in high school just to occupy a seat. It seems to me that we spend too much money and time on education. If education is beneficial for society then just enough education should be provided by society. In my opinion the education provided by society should stop at grade 8. By then you should have mastered reading, writing, and basic math and geometry. You have the tools then to participate in society as an educated person and you should be able to determine whether advanced education is beneficial or desirable for you.

If you determine that advanced education is in your best interest then high school takes you to the next level. High school should be funded by tuition paid by the students or their family. This keeps the family motivated in making sure the student is indeed benefiting from higher education. As Dr. Sowell indicated the level of education rose when the dead wood was removed so can you imagine how high school education could be improved? In fact high school could be condensed into a two year program leaving the last two years open to receive education meriting a BA degree rather than a high school diploma.

After the new high school the brightest and the best students could be offered scholarships and grants to pursue college level advanced degrees in targeted areas of interest. These areas would be determined by the need to have highly educated people in specific areas of application. These areas could be in the sciences, in education or in public service.


Recon-USMC
Although I agree with most of your post, there is one bit of misinformation.

"You don't have to be a College Grad to be a Nurse Doo Doo ."

Yes, there are some lower levels of nursing that don't require a degree, a registered nurse does have a college degree.

To I luvsnoopy @ 11:00 am
Obviously, government does not want Charters to produce any students that are superior to their indoctrination centers. They will eventually take over the Charters to ensure this doesn't happen. They gave up for now on the homeschoolers, but that doesn't mean they have forgotten. They NEVER give up. They will chip away at that method of education and succeed even if it takes 50 years. It's that kind of patience and persistence that has created the nightmare we are experiencing today.

'Collage' is a 'waist' of time ..
I think it would be more relevant if we pushed towards technical colleges; or for brandng purposes, call it "Focused Higher Learning".

Why on earth does a student need to know French History or some other retarded subject to become a engineer. In other words, half the time spent for a 4 year degree, is spent on things that have no relevance at all to the area they plan to go into. The companies/colleges say its to make them more 'well rounded'; i say its to make their check book more 'well rounded'

In My case, I enjoyed science and math areas (engineering degree), but hated English Lit. and Liberal Art areas. Yet i had to spend half my time in theses useless disciplines.

To I luvsnoopy @ 11:00 am
Obviously, government does not want Charters to produce any students that are superior to their indoctrination centers. They will eventually take over the Charters to ensure this doesn't happen. They gave up for now on the homeschoolers, but that doesn't mean they have forgotten. They NEVER give up. They will chip away at that method of education and succeed even if it takes 50 years. It's that kind of patience and persistence that has created the nightmare we are experiencing today.

Sign the Petition
To stop cap and trade

http://www.americansolutions.com/

Unions Not Good for Charters
Rowly,

Thank you for your comments about the unionizataion of charter schools. It would be interesting to track these charter schools to see if the schools are of the same quality four-five years down the road.

The more the government interferes with charter schools, the less effective and innovative they become. I have been affliated with a charter as an employee and parent since 2001. The charter school supports homeschooling families. Over the years, there have been more and more restrictions on what the parents can and cannot do because of greater restrictions coming from state. Some parents have left to become independent homeschoolers out of frustration at the government interference. This interference is why they joined the charter movement in the first place.

I do not believe in a charter system without oversight. Schools need to meet academic standards, budgetary criteria, etc. The problem is the oversight tends to move beyond general oversight to interference in what is taught and how it is taught thus pushing the charter to be less innovative.

While I support the charter movement, there needs to be a balance between oversight and freedom. Until that balance is created, charter schools will not be able to achieve their full potential as an alternative to the traditional public school system.

Education
I went in the military after high school. My tests, per my teachers , said I should have gone on to college. My efforts did not earn me a single bit of assistance (financial, etc) nor did I deserve it. In the military, I became an electronic technician. I liked it, but was overwhelmed by it and the techie gurus I was surrounded by. I completed my service and, once in the civilian world, got lucky and hired by IBM to work in the computer field. I was in night college and could not complete my studies, but my on the job training where I was too busy to get bored, led to a productive, happy and moderately prosperous career in computer technololgy that lasted for almost 50 years.
Not all of us are suited for college and only about 15% of careers require a degree. I offer the challenge that you would not be able to tell which of my co workers did not finish college and which had advanced degrees.
The secret to success is within us. Education is what helps us to advance, with or without degrees. OJT is perfect for those of us too itchy to sit in class and get no hands on.

Hard work
Hard work will get you anything a college degree can. The problem is too many kids want the rewards without the work.

Just to make more degrees more
worthless.

Colleges are being turned into trade schools for people who want the *panache* of a degree but would never in h*ll survive a 1950's liberal arts ed. in any US institution of higher learning then.

My little college gives *degrees* in x-ray and dental technician, nursery school aid, childcare attending, and everything except carpentry and auto mechanic. These degrees belong in trade and vocational schools for certifications.

When I took Shakespeare in 1959, we read a play a week--15 plays, but when I teach Shakespeare today we do 5, and barely.

In my novel course, we read a novel a week--big tomes like Tom Jones and The Brothers Karamazov. Today, students take short story courses and read half a dozen in 15 weeks.

I actually like teaching on the college level (because I have no pub. school admin, telling me what I can and cannot say and fill in this form in triplicate), but I just completed a course required for Eng. majors in grammar and sentence structure. These were skills I had in 2nd-8th grade, before *leftist ed.* claimed teaching the basics of Eng. was boring and made those skills obsolete, so students could be creative and have more *fun.*

In senior high school Eng., when we were writing sample college essays for applications and they didn't know a noun from their proverbial elbow, I'd ask--Are you having fun yet?

College or Not
It is unfortunate that high schools have dropped most industrial arts classes. Those living in agricultural communities fair much better in that kids can participate in FFA. While attending high school young men and women need to learn a skill that they can use to support themselves. High schools do not do provided that kind of education any longer. Sad..
jimk

Does Anyone Realize...

that on Friday there will be a vote on cap-n-tax, which (if passed) will result in an average of $10,000 per school?

Talk about ridiculous
My father's wife (stepmother), got a masters degree from boston university on whether Virginia Wolff represented the feminists of her age. Her conclusion was "no", she was just a suicidal lesbian who had trouble with her identity. For that she was given a masters degree, which she flounts regularly. Guess who she voted for. By the way she never works, cleans or much of anything except give her opinion.

Too bad Dr. Sowell...
...doesn't occupy the White House.

Numerous posters here have nailed this issue squarely.

I will offer a personal anecdote.

My ex-wife works for the Florida legislature. Specifically, she works for an arm of the legislature theoretically intended to evaluate the intent and effect of legislation being considered or already passed into law.

Although far from stupid, my ex is hardly a rocket scientist. Her SAT score was in the high 900's. To her credit, she persisted in college and obtained a Master's degree from FSU in Geography.

Social interaction with her co-workers revealed to me that her associates in Florida state government virtually all held Masters and Doctorates from FSU. These degrees were variously held in such "fields" as Psychology, Urban Planning, Literature, and Women's Studies, among others. Conspicuously absent were examples of state employees with degrees in more demanding fields such as Public Accounting, Management, or Mathematics.

There is not enough room on this bulletin board to describe to you the extent of the intellectual shallowness of these persons, which became blindingly obvious once one engaged them in conversation.

These folks, however, operate in a high-order mutual admiration society, having reached a consensus that they are all geniuses.

The 1430 I scored on the SAT barely got me through Georgia Tech, where I saw quite a number of actual geniuses flunk out.

I could rant for hours but I will close by reminding all of the root-word definition of the word "sophomore".

Your Obedient Servant,

George Washington


College for all?
I didn't even finish the seventh grade, but I and my wife of 49 years raised four children and now have eight Grandchildren and two Great Grandchildren.

I had a General Sheet Metal shop for nineteen years, that's when a Sheet mMetal Worker was a Sheet Metal Worker, not a duct tape and foam duct butcher.

My point is, not everyone is college material, nor is everyone a High School nessesity.

What you have in you and the way that you were brought up with firm guidence from your parents along with some required disipline such as a good old-fashion whippin and common cence will make you what you will be in later life.

When you see a harried mother leading one or two screaming brats down Walmart isles, you know where the failer starts and it proceeds from there in there later lives.

The parents have let their kids down for dealing with their later lives.

Please excuse the spelling, English was not my favorite class, but Mathmatics was always my favorite and still is.

A gold star for all
,If a college degree is so important then why don't we follow the model set by lower school educational system. Send them to college for 4 years, socially promote them, then shove them out the door with a "sheepskin". That should help their self-esteem.

Then these college graduates will qualified to be liberals.

The real education that is needed is work ethic.

Tibby

RJBJr
While you are correct about how superficial traits can aid in financial success, studies show that college grads make a higher lifetime income on average than non-grads.

Besides, education is not just about financial success, but also about expanding your mind and bettering your life and your world. It can also develop self-discipline and the capacity to accept criticism.

That said, I agree with Sowell that many have no need of college, and others lack the ability to benefit from higher education.

Unstimulating
Obama has no real hope, except that people believe his fuzzy math. NO jobs created or SAVED, and deficits into the stratosphere! For a refreshing dose of Obama-bashing, go here http://www.theblacksphere.net! You will laugh your butt off!

James
I agree but good luck getting enrollment driven colleges to have - or especially, enforce- standards. Same goes for the government. Accountability? Nah!

education waste
The reason that there are so many jobs that require a college education of some kind is that the high school diploma has been rendered worthless.

there are countless instances where students are passed on and are graduated without being able to read or write. Businesses need to know that the new hires are reasonably literate and have to resort to college degrees to assure a minimal level of literacy.

If public education would do its job, there would be little need for everyone to go to college or require a college degree.

educaion
My daughter, an Afghanistan campaign veteran, is trying to make her way through a university on the g.I. Bill. It is tough but she is making A's. Yes, both she and I could use some more money, but wasting education money on those who will probably party their way into expulsion the 1st. semester will not be money well spent. There should be standards for the assistance.

Saving Money
I am not a fan of T. Boone Pickens, but he has attempted to promote a program for use of natural gas that should be adopted NOW! Fleets of motorized vehicles that return to the same location each day can be converted from burning diesel fuel to burning natural gas economically NOW! These fleets include those of governments from small neighborhood police forces to the United States Army.

Today, the cost of natural gas is less than $5/mcf. That equates to $.70/gal compared to $1.75/gal wholesale price for diesel before road taxes ($2.50 retail). Even when crude soared to $170/bbl last summer, natural gas was a huge bargain when purchasing energy. Such savings will soon pay for the conversions of fleets of garbage trucks, city buses, and police cars to the use of natural gas, and the cost of establishing required service stations.

Our Federal government has made noises about reduced crude oil imports for 40 years while increasing those imports almost every year. The domestic reserves of natural gas are huge and increasing. This one step of requiring government fleets to use natural gas would accomplish more toward this noble cause than the CAFÉ standards that some say have crippled the domestic automotive industry. Because natural gas burns so much cleaner than diesel, the emissions from the vehicles is significantly improved. Maintenance costs of vehicles will be less. Forcing governments to save money, reducing the importation of crude oil from our enemies and cleaning up the environment are remarkable pluses from potential legislation.

Please promote Pickens and his plan.



Pros & Cons of College:
I started in college as a history major in the fall of '97. During the time I was in school, I worked in a restaurant as a waiter & made REALLY good money. After 2 1/2 yrs in school (summer sessions, too) I decided that I'd work & make money instead of toiling away in school. I worked as a waiter for 4 years & then decided to start cooking.

This was a monumental decision for me. Not having been able to join the service due to surgery, my intro to the professional fine dining kitchen was much like the opening scene from Full Metal Jacket. I worked for a psycho Italian coke head, alkie chef. I've been grabbed by the collar, been mother f-ed up & down, you name it, it's happened to me. 200 reservations on a Saturday night, cranking out food for about 80 people per 20 minutes, will make a grownup out of anyone.The objective is to keep putting the food out correctly, no matter HOW BAD the chef is yelling, or no matter HOW far behind in the tickets you are. Many simply fold under pressure like that. I almost folded in the beginning, but I prevailed. Eventually, I became a sous chef & responsible for ordering & basically acting like a senior chief for my chef/officer. Lessons in overcoming adversity, like the ones I learned, aren't learned in any classroom, either in college or in culinary school.

All the hard scrap lessons I learned in the kitchen enabled me to see the benefits of completing my degree. I've since finished it, & now work in an office & actually have a life. It's nice to not have to work 10-12 hrs, nights, weekends, & holidays. I wouldn't trade my cooking experiences for all the whiskey in Ireland, but I also see how hard it is in the world without a degree.

For a REALLY good insight into the dank world of the professional fine dining kitchen, read "Kitchen Confidential" & "The Nasty Bits" both by Anthony Bourdain. If you HAVE read it, you know I speak the truth.

Putting the horse before the buggy
A few points come to mind here. First, as a society, the goal of producing "more college graduates" is noble. Nobody is arguing that education is a bad thing. Rather, the issue seems to be that as a society, we tend to equate an "education" with a "college diploma," which may or may not achieve the desired results of a more productive society.

This could have something to do with the fact that colleges are not charitiable oranizations. At the end of the day, they are institutions, who are in the business of making a profit. Who better to persuade a young mind (or his/her parents) that a degree in sociology is going to open up endless doors.

There is nothing wrong with having knowledge. But when push comes to shove, will such "knowledge" result in the ability to produce something that is needed or generate an income?

Another fallacy is that we as a society tend to equate "intelligence" with earning a degree, or vice versa.In some cases, this is probably true. In many others, probably not! I know Dr. Sowell could do a piece on how this is an incorrect assumption, and has even eluded to here in this piece.

Perhaps more relevant is the fact that many large school districts around this country have abysmal graduation high school rates. The LAUSD in Los Angeles, CA has a graduation rate hovering around 50%.

If we want to send more kids to college, shouldn't be making sure more kids are finishing high school?

Viewed from this perspective, it seems the goal was overly ambitious on the part of our government. The goal of a high school diploma for at least, or say 85 percent of young adults( in certain districts) by 2025, would seem more logical.

Governnemt schools
The educational problems in our colleges and universities pall compared to what is happening in our elementary and high schools.
Without the ability to speak, write, think or add 2+2 an enormous number of young people are not prepared to live in our society - third world country maybe but our country! But then we are alowly becoming a third world country!

Good Thing
It's obvious to me that our educational system, especially at the college level, has become a big business that encourages more participation so more money can be made. I agree that college isn't for everyone, but, the 'piece of paper' has become the standard for getting a job and for keeping employers from being sued for discrimination. So, just like Washington, the system is set up to reward the administrators, more than the students, and because the standards have been so watered down, more people graduating would only mean the standards were lowered even more.

Evie
I agree. Too many colleges are simply competing for enrollment in order to stay afloat. Because of this, admission standards are lowered and too many students are "talked into" going to college, even though they don't want to - and it may not even be the best choice for them.

Unions & Charter Schools

As the Obama administration pushes for more charter schools, a teachers' union is pushing for a bigger role in them.

It's a new development for the charter school movement, a small but growing _ and controversial _ effort to create new, more autonomous public schools, usually in cities where traditional schools have failed.

On Tuesday in New York, the United Federation of Teachers expects to formalize a contract with teachers at Green Dot New York Charter School in the Bronx, a high school run by Green Dot, a nonprofit group that operates charter schools. Ten other New York charter schools are unionized.

And last week in Chicago, teachers voted to unionize three Chicago International Charter School campuses run by Civitas, a Chicago-based nonprofit organization.



Emphasize Science at an Earlier Age
On this thread many have noted the increasing dependence on foreign talent for math and science related jobs in the US. Unfortunately, few are looking back far enough along the educational spectrum to realize the problem begins in kindergarten. The advent of No Child Left Untested has exacerbated the problem. Because testing focuses primarily on reading writing and math, not only have PE, art, and music been pushed to the back burner so have science and history. Talk to an elementary teacher and ask how much time he/she spends on science. One would be appalled to find out how little. Kids are not going to be enticed into fields in which they have little exposure. Even former President Bush did not appear to understand the concept of early exposure. He talked about improving science education at the secondary level. That is too late. Science needs to be emphasized early and often. Until the K-6 education system is revamped to that reality, the US will continue to import its science oriented workers from other countries.

College for everyone????
My Dad was a very successful man who had only an elementary school education. He once said of "higher" education that too many people were educated beyond the limits of their intelligence. Two of my three children are extremely successful people, each with a business of his/her own. One had two years of college, the other had none. The third one graduated from the United States Merchant Marine Academy. He, too, is very successful. We need plumbers, electricians, locksmiths, etc. Not everyone wants to, or should, go to college. Enough of this nonsense.

Robert, Post #17
Great story. Accurate in every way.

COLLEGE DEGREE GOALS?
Puting the cart before the horse?
Shouldn't the goal of a much higher percentage of public high school diploma graduates come first?
Guess not, just look at the statistics for public high school diploma graduates in Washington D.C.
But then, a person with absolutely NO EXECUTIVE EXPERIENCE can end up living in our White House and sitting in our OVAL OFFICE because he has a piece of paper confirming college graduation and a boatload of money from backers.
Then there's congress, corrupt career politicians with college degrees, whose only experience and only goals are getting re-elected and gaining power.
Government controlled by College degreed graduates destroying an entire Nation of
honest, Patriotic and hard-working Americans, whose primary concern is FREEDOM and LIBERTY for themselves and their children, with the 'pursuit' of higher education following.

Dr. Sowell, Very good, next take on
Pre-kindergarten as it has been shown that US kids are equal to other nations until about 5th grade. This means that the longer our kids are in school, the farther behind they get. So, the leftist plan is to start them earlier so that they can be more brainwashed or braindead sooner. Then with forced college they can become good little obamabots just like the NEA wants.

Sara C
I don't think you can generalize like that. My experience has been the opposite, the girls had focus and my son was adrift. It happens in almost every family.

Dr. Sowell
Great Article...While reading your column, I was reminded of the movie "Caddyshack" when Danny Newnan couldn't decide weather or not to go to college and Judge Smales classic reply was "Well the world needs ditchdiggers to"


Good Point
Rarely do I find myself agreeing with Dr. Sowell, but here he makes a good point except about miles per gallon. People create these often self-serving societal targets without looking at the cost and deeper implications. Not every kid is cut our for college and not every kid can even do high school graduation level work.

We do these kids a disservice when we force them through some sausage grinder of an education program because that is what is required to meet a graduation rate target.

You can have 100% of students attending college if you make it free and lower the standards.

College Degrees are not all equal
There are lots of liberal arts degrees that are not worth the paper they are printed on. They are just four years of learning about something that will produce nothing, help no one and not advance society one inch. They teach nothing that is really useful to society.
We DO need electricians, carpenters, plumbers, roofers, brickmasons appliance repairmen and auto mechanics. Ok, with the bad economy maybe we don't need as many as we did since there are lots of empty houses now, but America seems to have degraded trades in favor of getting a college degree even though you can make a good living in the trades. We do need nurses and engineers which require degrees and we need to kill off about half of all lawyers to reduce the cost of medidical care and goods and services. Tort reform would make a lot of things more affordable.

Robert 4:15
Robert is dead-on and spot-on!

People steadily complain about the foreign talent that is brought in to do the jobs that require strong mathematical and/or scientific skills. And the complaints are almost always the same: "Big companies are looking for sources of cheaper labor." Which is total BS.

These companies are looking for labor - period. In my industry, we are continually taking on more and more engineers from India. Not because the companies just have an affection for Indians, or really want to jump through all the hoops they have to for visa requirements and such that 'might' save them a dollar or two, but it's because we don't have enough Americans with strong enough mathematical skills to perform the jobs.

So we pay an Indian $50.00 an hour to program, when the job could be done by an American high school grad -- if he just had the logic and mathematical aptitude for it.

It's a damn shame. We spend so much money on education and unless you live in the middle of nowwhere, you can't throw a baseball, pick it up and throw it again -- without hitting some 'school' of sorts. Yet we have to go looking around the rest of the world for our engineers, scientists and doctors. Amazing.

definitions
please, it is not so much education as it is training. it is hard to over estimate the importance of the difference.

training produces manageable "citizens" - useful idiots.

education is liberating, and does not cost anything except the time and attention of the student.

teachers either train, or they assist. your second semester students welcomed your assistance.

Capitalist Reward System
It's not education that correlates with financial success in our form of Capitalism.

It's more important to be tall.
It's more important to be in the right group.
It's most important to be able to sell things rather than to be able to create things.
It's more important to be a "corporate politician" than to be competent.

college
I wish you were teaching at Eastern Kentucky University. If you were I would take your class.

Brainwashed Idiots
Apparently, not enough students are sufficiently brainwashed by the completion of high school and need to continue their brainwashing.

For those that drop out while still in high school, the powers that be have Serve America to continue their brainwashing.

Justin--
Excellent comments.

not enough native engineers/scientists?
Wrong headed notion--there are more than enough. What's lacking are the truly cool jobs in R and D, which are very competitive to get.
What US businesses really like are low payed engineers-hence the job attrition to other countries or the emphasis on hiring fresh grads. This is not a critiscism, but a statement of fact.

Frank you are so right.
I think maturity is more of a issue with young woman than young men. Being a mother of a 23 year old male who is responsible, mature and graduated with an engineering degree in December, who has now has moved to Dallas to become a math teacher,the difference between him and his older female cousins is staggering. They have all been drama queens, very inmature, and have taken several years longer than my son to get on with their life. One of them is 25 and still sponging off her parents.

GOOD THING
Right on! We have PHD's all over the place but can't find a GOOD plumber or electrician!!

Definitins Please
The APLGU needs to understand that it has to define what a college education is. Does it mean holding a piece of paper from an organization defined as a university? In that case, I can argue that some 60% of that 50% in Canada is holding onto worthless paper.

Examine my alma mater's catalog:

http://www.catalog.sdes.ucf.edu/archive/0809/UCFUGRDCatalog 0809.pdf

While UCF isn't as bad as some other colleges, you can find a huge number of degree programs that either have no economic value nor are they even necessary as classes.

Take Anthropology, it falls into the category of minimal economic value, but it is one of those classes that I don't particularly object to, so long as those taking it do so on their own dime (which isn't a possibility as UCF uses taxpayer money) for personal interest.

Others, like Business Administration (accounting and economics for brain-deads), public administration or event management are entirely pointless.

What does holding a degree even mean? Is the APLGU lumping people with degrees in Optics (a VERY hard science) with people with degrees in Marketing (something that anyone can do with a $20 do it yourself book from Borders)?

The question is what KINDS of degrees are needed? Can government even identify what is necessary, identify who is both interested and capable and then carry out the education? Not really. Our education system is flawed becuase from K-12 it is built as a one size fits all mechanism when clearly individuals will ever have any use for geometry. We should privatize the education system, that way students can actually get a personalized education with viable skills for the future, not some inane self-building exercise on the taxpayer dime.

Hard Amerrica .. Soft America
Michael Barone wrote a book in 2003, titled Hard America .. Soft America. In it he made the point that, with some notable exceptions, America produced lousy 18yr olds but really good 30 somethings.

His premise was that our kids grow up soft .. coddled in a socialized Soft America, lacking accountability. Then, they enter the crucible of results-oriented, mostly capitalistic Hard America, and are faced with accountability. Some sink, but most kids 'grow up', take their responsibilities seriously and prosper.

As our mixed economy tilts more towards Socialism, there are fewer instances of results-oriented, capitalistic Hard America.

Result: fewer Americans will 'grow up' .. we will see a generation of whiny, bromide-spouting 30-somethings, with 'fluffy' college degrees. Lacking the work-ethic that makes Americans prosper, they will create an America that is made up of Parasites -OR- Slaves.

Oh, there will be a third class: The 'smart' ones will become leaders, making the laws that skim off-the-top as they siphon wealth from the few productive Slaves that remain to a growing class of Parasites.

25 is new 18
Another reason there is such a push towards more people into college is that our K-12 schools are doing such a dismal job. Coming out of HS you do not have the same level of education as in generations past.

As many people have pointed out, there are many good useful jobs that do not require a college degree.

As someone said to me, 25 is the new 18. In generations past, someone coming out of HS at 18 was educated and mature enough to produce for society. Today we are luck if they are educated and mature enough by the time they are 25.

Amen ...
... is just about the only comment I need to make about this piece by Dr. Sowell.


Oh, except to add my echo to several comments about Sky Pete's post. I could write a long essay about his issues, but it should suffice to observe that he just hasn't got a clue.

The Diff:
A woman in a hot air balloon realized she was lost. She lowered her altitude and spotted a man in a boat below. She shouted to him,

"Excuse me, can you help me? I promised a friend I would meet him an hour ago, but I don't know where I am."

The man consulted his portable GPS and replied, "You're in a hot air balloon, approximately 30 feet above ground elevation of 2,346 feet above sea level. You are at 31 degrees, 14.97 minutes north latitude and 100 degrees, 49.09 minutes west longitude.

"She rolled her eyes and said, "You must be a Republican."


"I am," replied the man. "How did you know?"

"Well," answered the balloonist, "everything you told me is technically correct. But I have no idea what to do with your information, and I'm still lost. Frankly, you've not been much help to me."

The man smiled and responded, "You must be an Obama Democrat."

"I am," replied the balloonist. "How did you know?"

"Well," said the man, "you don't know where you are or where you are going. You've risen to where you are, due to a large quantity of hot air. You made a promise you have no idea how to keep, and you expect me to solve your problem. You're in exactly the same position you were in before we met, but somehow, now it's my fault."


Yes, Dr. Sowell, let's do the math
With the average worker changing their field 3 to 5 times during their working career (and likely going up as the economy goes down) and the cost of a degree definitely going up, up, up, there has to be a point at which the average person has to say a non-specific college degree is simply too much.
And let's face it, the big degree-hunt started in the 60's, with people wanting to maintain a college draft deferment.
Today vocational training, certificate programs and Associate's degrees in technical fields make a lot more sense than liberal art's degrees that lead to a great job in burger flipping.

Sky Pete
Nowhere does Dr. Sowell say we have too much education. Nowhere does he suggest that less education is desirable. Nice way to twist the argument so you can appear to know what you're talking about, however.

What Dr. Sowell does point out is that once again some organization has come out with an idea that they wish to translate into government policy. That government policy would cost us money. Dr. Sowell would simply ask that they justify their numbers. He implies that the Association of Public and Land Grant Universities has come up with their proposal out of purely selfish motives, namely to increase the number of students paying them huge sums of money.

Look at the increase in tuition that accompanies every increase in federal spending for higher education. Look at the balance sheets of most colleges and universities. Look at the pathetic education that is to be had at most colleges and universities - the watered down academics, the grade inflation, the "left-handed, underwater basket weaving" type courses that infest college catalogs and prove Dr. Sowell wrong on that basis. You can't.

Social Engineering
Sowell highlights another classic example of the intelligentsia contemplating another social engineering project to make the world a better place. No doubt they justify this to themselves along the lines of 'everyone will benefit' from more people having higher education. Classic. Fill in the blank with the social engineering project du jour: 'improving' the environment, preventing teen pregnancy, etc.

The arrogance of social engineering is repulsive and antithetical to freedom, being at the heart of statism.

This is what democracy allows to happen over time. The Founding Fathers expressly omitted 'democracy' from the Constitution and Declaration of Independence for very well thought-through reasons. They knew democracy had historically devolved into tyranny of the majority and ultimate destruction of freedom. It's the real reason why the Roman Empire eventually fell... devolving from a true Republic into a democracy and then on predictably downward into a dictatorship/autocracy.

That is why our Founding Fathers always used the expression 'Republic' and set us on the initial course for the rule of law, rather than the tyranny of the majority and special interests.

Benjamin Franklin was asked as he departed the Constitutional Convention of 1787 “Well, Doctor, what have we got—a Republic or a Monarchy?”... he responded, “A Republic, if you can keep it.”

This my friends is why America, and the rest on the path of 'Democracy' is ever-more mired in corruption, social-engineering, and infringement of individual rights. Until we fully restore the Republic, ours will be the same downward spiral of the Roman Empire.

The rule of law and unequivocal protection of individual rights are required to maintain freedom. Until that can be fully understood & re-achieved, expect more of the same until freedom dies a death of a thousand little cuts.

Let The Mob Run The Government

Liberals are complete idiots when it comes to economics.

So, some will give their money! HA!

Yes, that will pay for the ~800,000 doctors to treat ~305mn people and the untold amount of money that doctors have to pay for med-mal insurance.

No country will loan us money, gold is at a premium, and ink for the Federal Reserve is running low.

Personally, I know of several doctors, who will set up practice in other countries or medical ships. Heck! I know of a private clinic in a posh area of Southern Mexico where US doctors have clinics because the treatments, which have been prove successful, have been denied by the FDA.

And, now we are supposed to believe that ObamaCare will pay when the CBO, "Pay-Go", and nonparisan think tanks say that it will not.

Read about the "Slow Burn Theory" by Catherine Austin Fitts, who predicts that on a 1 to 10 scale as to whether we will experience another Great Depression is a low 3.

Try reading Gerald Celente.

And, peruse http://www.williamhenry.net/

Both Parties are corrupt and have acted unconstitutionally.

Let the Mob run the government because it will do so effectively and let the government run the Mob because it will f*ck everything up.

When New Hampshire wants to cut taxes across the board and Vermont wants to seceed, you have to wonder whatever happened to the Southern Strategy.

The Republic of Texas, anyone?

What type of college degree?
I knew one gal long ago that in High School, she excelled at Germany. Then in Jr. College, once again she excelled. On to get her bachelor’s degree in German with Honors. And without even applying, a space was available in the Graduate school for her Master’s Degree. Only trouble was, she didn’t want to teach German, nor work as a Professional High Tech translator. At the age of 23, she had the degree, but no idea of what she wanted to do with it. I have known others that got the degree in something that they liked, only to find out that the job market wasn’t what they thought that it should be. Another guy dropped out of High School to work with his dad, building custom cabinets. I ran into him years later and he was still doing just that. Building custom cabinets and living in a large home in California, while those that he attended H.S. with were still struggling with their life’s.

A College degree might be needed to become a C.P.A., but it is useless to operate a Backhoe! Only by sitting in one, working with it for months, can you start to learn how to operate it. And once you tip it over, you learn even more.



What Type of Education

The problem as I see it (coming from an engineering background) is that the emphasis will be placed on the easy to get degrees
and not the much harder degrees like science & engineering that requires real intelligence.

Everyone loves their Blackberries, iphones, flat screen TV's and other engineering marvels. But outside of the science & engineering fields, no one considers the real genius and know-how to conceptualize, design and build these devices.

Sadly, our society glamorizes athletes, movie stars, rock stars and rappers and unfortunately, most American kids want to be on of the previously mentioned. They've been socialized to only want to do what's easy.
To most American kids today, math & science is like sunlight to a vampire.

It's no small wonder that most of the engineers & scientists in America today are not native born Americans. Why do what's hard
when liberal socialist policies rewards ignorance & laziness and removes any social stigma from being that way.

Might I remind Sky Pete
Might I remind Sky Pete that the greatest inventions ever were not done by College Grads . Lights , Phones , The Radio , The Plane, Train or a great President named Lincoln .
What is left out of your mindless B/S .
IS : America ''needs "" more America skilled workers . You don't need to be College Grad to serve our Country honorably so leftist like you can spew your crap .
No College grads want to pick up Garbage ,be Mechanics , Cops or Carpenters ,Roofers ,Electricians , Lay Bricks do Plumbing essential area's America needs badly .
You don't have to be a College Grad to be a Nurse Doo Doo .
Your "Education " was a failure obviously .
No common sense and your are blinded to basic simple reality .
You sounds like your a Socialism professor at UVA , Tech , URI or William and Mary .
My own Daughter came back home after 5 years from UVA with a Masters Degree in English Totally brained washed and a Obama supporter and can't find a Job .
If I had known this was going to ruin her I never would have sent her to $$$$$$$ UVA but of course I graduated from there as did her mother and we are Conservatives ...... It was a Conservative College back in my day ....... plus I have worked hard to be quite successful most College Professors or Students have never done .
They like you are into Theory never Facts .

Dr. SowelI: I enjoy what you write
Sky Pete Location: VA
Only Here:
Would less education be viewed as desirable
____________________________________________

First-Dr. Sowell, the articles you have authored that I have had the good fortune to read is like a breath of fresh air in a slaughter house.

2nd--Sky Pete--as we move ever closer to a fascist country under the leadership of the "anointed one" with government control of every major industry from manufacturing to womb to the tomb health care we will not have to worry about foreigners streaming into our country as they will go to countries that will be able to pay them what they are worth. Likewise with our brightest and best. As a former educator where the curriculum was intense and extremely fast paced and condensed, if a student either did not possess the will or the capacity to learn he was attrited without empathy or compassion. We could only have those that mastered the knowledge passing and working in the field where those skill were needed. With greater than a 50% attrition I'm sure someone would say the system wasn't fair. Hogwash.

As to your comment about more college graduates being a good thing. Have you looked at the numbers going to college that are enrolled in hard science and engineering compared to field related to government employment or other live off of taxes programs. That should open your eyes as to the reason foreign employee's are coming right now. We just don't have sufficient numbers of people qualified or interested in pursuing Hard education that requires the ability to think in a logical and critical way

Sky Pete, are you really interested in
an answer, or are you here to disrupt the thread?

No sense or nonsense
Sky Pete,
Your arrogance is based on your ignorance. If you'd been around any university, you'd know how on target Dr. Sowell's comments are.

If you look at the world we live in, most people don't need a college degree to do their jobs. And there are many college graduates who cannot find work. We are and have been over educating our people. Many young people are going deeply into debt because they been told that college is a way to a better life. When they graduate, they find this isn't always true.

We have too many going to college-not too few. Our lack of highly trained technical people isn't a result of too few people going to college. It's a result of a scientfically illiterate society where students want to take the easy courses. Science and math are hard.

Only Here:
Would less education be viewed as desirable

Expanding the number of college educated adults an anathema to American culture. Only Here !

Reasons we need to increase # of US college grads.:

1) Our hi-tech industries would employee less foreign graduates to do the work. If Microsoft and Cisco did not have a steady stream of foreign workers they would collapse. More and More of our top engineers originated in Asia.

2) We have a nurse shortage... nurses and doctors are coming in from foreign countries

3) When the Health Reform Bill is enacted and more people have access to health care the influx of new doctors will be from India.

Dr Sowell you call yourself an academic and then promote the minimum amount of education to get by ?

It baffles me... And I didn't require a paper from a conservative think tank to figure it out.

Dr. Sowell,
as usual, raises extremely good questions. I envy his students. A couple of questions occur to me. If our K thru HS education was adequate, maybe the electorate would not have been so foolish as to elect Obama. And maybe our K thru HS education would be greatly improved if the relatively small percentage of disruptive students, who clearly aren't there to learn, where simply thrown out of school.

Something smells
America has long had one of the strongest economies in the world, and is the sole superpower.

I'd say the educational mix is just about right. But that won't keep obama from performing a massive experiment with our economy. He's like a kid with a new chemistry set, and methinks that perhaps he's been playing with the sulfur.

Good points, Dr. Sowell, as usual
But I'm concerned about the education all students are getting whether they graduate or not for the billions of our money that is being confiscated. Oblaba made it clear that a smooth, cool empty suit idealogue can organize them like lemmings and take over the most powerful country of the world without a clue as how to run it.

So the indoctrination centers should be a major target of shutting off government money if they don't offer diversity to the constant lib crap they're inundated with when we take over 2010.
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