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Wednesday, April 29, 2009
Thomas Sowell :: Townhall.com Columnist
The Housing Boom and Bust
by Thomas Sowell
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In the spirit of bipartisanship, my newest book-- "The Housing Boom and Bust"-- shows how both Democrats and Republicans ruined both the housing markets and the financial markets.

Like so many disasters, the current economic crisis grew out of policies based on good intentions and mushy thinking.

For far too long, too many people have regarded home ownership as "a good thing." It is certainly true that home ownership has its benefits. But, like everything else, it also has its costs and its risks.

Weighing such trade-offs is something that each individual and each family can do for themselves. It is when such decisions are made by politicians-- of whatever party-- that trade-offs tend to vanish into thin air, replaced by pursuit of a "good thing."

Beginning in the 1990s, getting a higher proportion of the American population to become homeowners became the political holy grail of government housing policies. Increasing home ownership among minorities and other people of low or moderate incomes was also part of this political crusade.

Because banks are regulated by various agencies of the federal government, it was easy to pressure them to lend to people that they would not otherwise lend to-- namely, people with lower incomes, poorer credit ratings and little or no money for a conventional down payment of 20 percent of the price of a house.

Such people were referred to politically as "the underserved population"-- as if politicians know who should and who shouldn't get mortgages better than people who have spent their careers making mortgage-lending decisions.

But, in politics, power trumps knowledge. Banks whose mortgage loan approval rates for "the underserved population" did not match the prevailing preconceptions found that they could not get government regulatory agencies to approve their business decisions on opening new branches or enlarging their financial operations, the way competing banks did when those competing banks met the lending quotas set by the government.

If meeting those quotas required lowering the standards for granting mortgage loans, that was often considered a lesser evil than having government regulators stalling or vetoing the business decisions necessary for competing in the financial markets.

While Democrats spearheaded this crusade, Republicans joined in as well. The George W. Bush administration, for example, urged Congress to pass the American Dream Downpayment Initiative, which subsidized the down payments of prospective home buyers whose incomes were below a certain level.

Who could be against "the American dream" of home ownership or so mean-spirited as to ask how much it would cost the taxpayers or what risks it would create for the whole financial system? Certainly not most Democrats or Republicans in Congress or the White House.

The media were also part of this crusade for more home ownership, more widely available. If some segments of the population did not own homes as much as others, that just showed that there was something wrong with the mortgage lending process, as far as editorial office philosophers were concerned.

As the St. Louis Post-Dispatch put it, "lending institutions are being far more conservative than they have to be in determining the creditworthiness of minorities."

Later, disastrous default rates and foreclosure rates among "the underserved population" who had been given mortgage loans to satisfy government quotas suggest that the old-fashioned mortgage qualifications that had been pooh-poohed in editorial offices had more basis than the crusades of politicians and the press.

There are many other complications covered in "The Housing Boom and Bust." But behind all the complexities was a very simple fact: Monthly mortgage payments by millions of home buyers were what provided the money for the banks, the financial institutions that bought mortgages from the banks, and the Wall Street firms that created sophisticated securities based on those mortgages.

Riskier mortgage lending practices, imposed by government, were what set the stage for many mortgage payments to stop and thus for the financial disasters that followed. Political rhetoric, echoed in the media, seeks to obscure that painfully plain fact.

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About The Author
Thomas Sowell is a senior fellow at the Hoover Institute and author of The Housing Boom and Bust.
 
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self indulgence
This is all a perfect example of a pervasive attitude taking over America...I am entitled to it. People believe they have a "right" to things like healthcare and the "american dream of home ownership" even if it cant be payed for.

It is not self indulgence...
...it is simply living.Everyone has to have a place to live,even if it just a cave.The rest is variables.Children?Schools? Neighborhood?Work place? Climate? Taxes? City living? Suburban living? Country living? Income? All these things contribute to supply and demand,which,to my knowledge,has not been outlawed yet.In my long lifetime,things like these are vastly better than they used to be.People who long for the old days have probably not lived in the old days.

This geezer will take today,thank you very much.

Encouraging Speculation.
I think another factor in the housing fiasco was the change in the tax structure allowing people to take a tax free capital gain after two years of home ownership. The old rollover rule said there was no tax as long as a home of equal or greater value was purchased to replace the sold property. When the tax law changed and a couple could make a half million dollars on a sale and pay no income tax that pushed a lot of money into speculating on real estate.

That increased speculation tied to cheap a money policy by the Fed and pressure from the government to make loans to poor people ended up badly. Now we get to pay for the stupidity.

That's just it
"All these things contribute to supply and demand..."

When markets are left alone to operate properly, supply and demand prevents disasters like this from happening in the first place. But when government interferes either, as Dr. Sowell explains, by interfering with the lending criteria used by lenders or by dumping way too much liquidity in the market (without which the abuse of CDS instruments and the like cannot happen) or creating an irrational market for such instruments by giving a false seal of approval to them (as Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac did), the market cannot function properly and the pricing signals that ordinarily prevent irresponsible decision making become so distorted that they are useless.

Make no mistake, there were certainly ample examples of self-indulgent borrowers and "greedy" lenders out to make a quick buck, but self-indulgence and greed ALWAYS exist and are normally controlled by the market. Until government interferes (and fails miserably as it always does when it interferes in the economy) the disaster cannot occur.

Government failure is to blame for this mess ... as has been the case with nearly every financial crisis since 1819.

TruLib
That one-time exemption has been around for many years and is there for when people get old and want to step down in housing to something more manageable. It has nothing to do with the housing bubble.

Credit Cards: the House of Cards
Dear Mr. Sowell,
The Republican-inspired legislation to bail out the credit card industry - (the legislation that made it nearly impossible to declare bankruptcy on credit card debt) - set the stage for the collapse.

Instead of letting the credit industry fall under it's own crushing weight, they bailed 'em out. The industry made the bad loans, with no pushing from the government. How many of us got weekly or even daily sales pitches in the mail for this card or that card? And when people took them up on their offers, but couldn't pay them back?

Well, after the legislation that made default impossible, people took out home equity loans to pay off their cards, and did loan consolidation deals that bundled their cards into their mortgages. Right. up. to. the. max.

So when they maxed out and the home prices dropped? They owed more than the properties were now worth.

Why the crash? In part because investors bought tons of properties on what amounted to a pre-Great Depression margin (no money down.) It's a repeat of the late 1980s: anyone who watched the 1990s recession, everybody expecting perpetual profits from real estate over-building, and didn't see this coming needs a legal guardian.

What happened was nothing more nor less than a margin call. And it happened that this time, unlike 1929, the margins weren't in stocks, but in real estate.

Both parties did this one. Neither party has an answer - and the medical depression we're about to hit is a wall (yes, indeed, that's another overpriced, over-invested commodity.) The failure of our medical system will make the housing/bank failures look like a speedbump.

That's what happens when investors expect too many gains for inferior products.

Greed and self-indulgence
Greed and self-indulgence are the problem, i.e., the greed and indulgence of politicians and their clients for political power and unearned wealth. Market excesses are self-correcting. Government excesses are not. Market forces tend away from monopoly. Government forces tend towards monopoly (dictatorship).

The Founders recognized this and sought to set up a system of checks and balances and constitutionally limited government. Over time, the statists have chipped away at the restraining dyke until now it has been breached. The system is broken and the rule of law is breaking down. Without it, the market system will not long survive.

We are sliding at an accelerating rate into anarchy and arbitrary dictatorship, the United States of Zimbabwe. BO's mindset is essentially identical to Mugabe's. Just wait till the food shortages hit.

Goober Bush
George Bush was president for the 8 years leading up to the housing failure. Both Sec.of Commerce and the Treasury are cabinet positions, reporting directly to Goober and they allowed liar loans and exotic loans.
Why didn't Goober put a stop to these loans?
The buck stopped w/him, he passed it onto to 'Murica.

ACORN and Obama
Don't forget the part that Barack Obama played when as a lawyer, a community organizer, and a trainer for ACORN he sued Citibank to force it to make bad loans.

http://www.mediacircus.com/2008/10/obama-sued-citibank-unde r-cra-to-force-it-to-make-bad-loans/

Obama, ACORN Pressured Banks to Make Unsafe Subprime Loans
http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_092908/content/ 01125108.guest.html

And this article from the winter of 2000
'The Trillion-Dollar Bank Shakedown That Bodes Ill for Cities' by Howard Husock

http://www.city-journal.org/html/10_1_the_trillion_dollar.h tml


The blame belongs to government
Dr. Sowell is correct blaming our social-engineering politicians, for the financial crisis. However, being an ex-banker, I'm more likely to think politicians had devious motives for their actions.

I left banking 30 years ago when most banks kept the loans they wrote. Our lives depended upon repayment of mortgages. Risky loans were a real threat to our survival and to the security of other folks money. If we averaged 7% on our mortgage portfolio, we were comfortable paying 4% - 5% to our depositors. The 2% spread paid our salaries and all other operating expenses. One dared not make risky loans to offset this critical spread. Every banker was well aware of risks and it's threats.

The politicians responsible for Freddie, Fannie and The Community Reinvestment Act had to know the critical threat of risk to a banks survival. Those like Barney Franks, although misguided, are clearly not stupid. It seems more likely they wanted banks to fail so government could intervene.

If nothing else, this financial crisis highlights the dangers of government intervention into free markets. Left alone, bankers would never have allowed such a disaster.

Redsands, you are right.
Liberal government hates business, because business has much more power under our Constitution.

Nobody was up on the Hill trying to do something noble (not any of those who backed this crap, anyway). They sold that to the public and the media, a deliberate misinformation campaign as an excuse to take more power. Bush was just a moron about giving it his stamp of approval. (Bush was honest, but stupid. Now, we have a Prez who is both stupid AND morbidly dishonest.)

Right Again
Once again Dr Sowell has hit the nail on the head. Washington's politicians allowed this mess to happen. They meddle in the private sector and invariably screw it up. They then come up with these various rescue schemes to cover up their complicity. Once again the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
What makes it even more scary is the fact that they are getting ready to do it again with their universal health care plans. It has been said that people generally get the government they deserve. Through our ignorance I am afraid this is what is coming to pass.

An Old Quote
"You can ignore the operation of the free market,
But you will not be able to ignore the CONSEQUENCES of ignoring the free market."

Too bad the whole country (and world) are going to suffer for the stupidity and arrogance in Washington, D.C. (And yeah, yeah, leftrolls, to date that includes bothe the Wimpublicans and the RATs. But it's the RAT party that really manufactured this bust. And it's the RATs - with total control of congress and the white house - who will own it in the end.)

And yes, redsand, you are 100% correct.

dangle a carrot long enough...
and even the most skittish will take a chance and bite. There were many folks who knew deep down that buying a house was not within their means but they finally fell for it because home ownership is something everyone desires and the temptation become too great.

Now what do they have? What benefit did they derive from the "good intentions" of politicians meddling where they had no business. Just another example of how liberal (by both parties) social engineering winds up making things worse for those it was supposed to be helping, just as welfare actually keeps people down.

The idea that self motivation and initiative, not to mention hard work aren't necessary to reap the rewards of something better has led us to this time when half the population pays no income tax and the others half is forced to make up the difference.

A government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take everything you have.

The freedom to succeed or fail on your own merit is what made this nation great.

Nam65-66
Everyone has to have a place to live? ONLY if they can afford it!

Recent Letter from Fannie Mae
Over the weekend my husband and I received a letter from Fannie Mae informing us that under President Obama’s new housing programs we qualify for a 4% loan with no down payment, no credit check and no paperwork required. I was stunned to say the least. I kid you not. I kept the letter to send copies to people I know who couldn’t believe it either.

Jim's faulty history
"The Republican-inspired legislation to bail out the credit card industry..."

...is pure liberal fiction. To the contrary, the legislation of which you speak undid the liberal intervention that made it almost impossible for creditors to collect from debtors even when there was NO REASON that they couldn't satisfy their obligations. This notion that people should be protected from their own poor decision-making at the expense of those who provided them a servuce in the first place is a HUGE part of the problem. It wasn't the credit card companies (who largely created the terms long before government intervention based on market conditions) but GOVERNMENT that cerated that problem.

"How many of us got weekly or even daily sales pitches ... but couldn't pay them back?"

Very, very few.

"Well, after the legislation that made default impossible, people took out home equity loans..."

The connection is pure delusion. To teh contrary, the expansion of home equity lending (cdreating liquidity from equity) long preceded the bankruptcy legislation and the problem in real estate lending (driven by excess liquidity) came long after.

"Why the crash?"

Excess liquidity followed by excess tightening - the cause of every boom and bust cycle (and bubble burst). The only thing different from the Depression-era was the asset-type in which people malinvested.

"It's a repeat of the late 1980s..."

Actually, you found the one period that it was NOT like. Asset values were not significantly distorted at that point. Unlike most recessions, that one was caused by the economic uncertainty resulting from the invasion of Kuwait.

"What happened was nothing more nor less than a margin call."

Uh, no.

"Both parties did this one."

A lonely truth sadly followed by an absurd comment about medicine.

unintended consequences
Dr Sowell has said it time and time again, its the unintended consequences of a decision that get us in trouble. There is nothing wrong with wanting everyone to own a home but when you bend the system to make that happen rather then make sure people can afford homes, there will be the unintended consequences like we are currently dealing with.

President Pong Will Only Make It Worse
If you think government screwed up real estate and the financial system, just wait until you see what it does to health care, education, and social security.

This is all going to end badly, especially for future generations. The irony is, the majority of those under 40 support the fool!

F1etch
First of all, I am for the free market, not for forced inoculations (can you say "Gardasil?") that schoolgirls have been forced to take - by one Texas governor, for example. That's nothing short of Socialism, and you know it! Sounds like you're a pharmaceutical lobbyist, friend. Your response reminds me of the tobacco lobby's response to the claims that tobacco causes cancer: disinformation.

The legislation to stop bankruptcy vis-a-vis credit cards was largely bipartisan, but Republican inspired. The credit card industry should have been left to deal with free-market forces. The lesson that should have been learned: don't lend to people who can't pay the loan back.

The connection between home equity loans and credit card loans became a problem when people couldn't pay back BOTH sets of loans. It didn't have to be a steady progression - it didn't matter if the home equity loans grew before the credit card legislation. It is NOT pure delusion. A point I didn't make - but should have - is that people sometimes also paid their home loans with credit cards when things got tight.

The free market, left alone, would have let both sets of lenders fail. Credit card lenders are like viruses: they both learn not to kill the hose (eventually.)

You ever notice how bankers aren't the bravest bunch? That they cowtowed to the ACORNS and other liberal pressure groups? That's where Dr. Sowell is absolutely on-target.

The late 80s were a period of overbuilding - particularly in Houston. Too much expansion created a buyer's market without the buyers. However, there wasn't a huge government knee-jerk reaction (compared to now.) That's the chief difference between the recessions.

Who is responsible for putting the
idea in their little politician heads. Why did they believe buying is better for the poor than renting? Were they talking to financial experts. Much info needs to be weighed before making a decision as to whether you should buy or rent. For any family. Why do we vote for fools to run our country. If only Sowell would run for office. We could be assured of having at least one politician with a brain.

Jim
Giant knee jerk reaction?????? That's what you think this is??????? How about taking advantage of a staged crisis!!!!!! Using a crisis to further your socialist/fascist agenda.

F1etch: Margin Call
The margin call at the beginning of the Great Depression was a grave aspect of the depression. It is true that restrictions in lending contributed to the fall, and the failure of investors to meet the margin call. "Excess liquidity followed by excess tightening." I don't disagree.

This time around, we also were burdened with greatly increased energy costs. The average family was paying somewhere in the neighborhood of $100 a month more in energy expenditures. Which is why it is bizarre that the current administration wants a cap 'n trade, because this tax will kill the economy just as quickly, perhaps more.

As far as a medical depression goes: I know what I'm talking about there. Medical costs have risen disporportionate to GDP. The medical dollar is vastly overinflated, worth about 30 cents on the dollar - and a great deal of this is pharmaceutical inflation. Doctors and the pharmaceuticals prescribe dangerous, useless crap - like statins - that statistically are no more advantageous than a baby aspirin, but with far deadlier consequences, some of which include the instigation of a muscle-wasting gene called Atrogen I, another of which (is more common) is high BP. I know what I'm talking about. As far as efficacy goes, the pharmas have used flawed stats to market this crap. If you knew abything about NNTs, you wouldn't be so quick to throw monkey merde.

But obviously, you don't know anything anout NNTs. Shoot, you probaly never heard of TGN 1412! Why am I bothering to respond to someone as ill-informed as you?

some truth, but still way off.
Sowell is right that the government equated more home ownership with better home ownership, even though that is not always the case. But he continues to push the canard that the push for more mortages was driven by pressure on the regulated market, when the reality is that bad loans were made most consistently were regulation was the least heavy.

This seems to be just another example of someone who only has a hammer (regulation is bad in Sowell's case) finding everything to be like a nail.

Catfish Keith
I think "W" was afraid of the term "racist". I'm sure you've seen Maxine in action. According to her the only people that wanted to take a good look into Fannie and Freddie were racists. She must have had some fine pickings.

Dems & repubs
Did you notice that Dr.Sowell blamed both parties.When is the last time you heard a liberal say that the dems as well as the repubs were to blame.This is all Bushes fault.Partially true,but remember Bush was NOT A CONSERVATIVE

FMFM
Fannie Mae and Freddie Mack awarded more than 70% of homeloans - being parastatals they were run like congress wanted and Congress didn't even need to pressure them into 'breaking' all the rules of lending money. Being such large lenders in such good times made it even harder for the small guys (read banks) in the industry to do anything but follow suit.


Joycey
I am anything but a Socialist/Fascist.
I am purely free-market. The Socialism you'll get from Obama is what you deserve if you keep burying your head in the sand. The Socialism started with Social Security, but was greatly expanded by Johnson/Nixon/Bush/Reagan/Clinton/ Bush. Medicare and the AARP will eventually break this country.

If you want Socialism/Fascism, look at the Gardasil Experiment. Some states tried to force 9-year olds to take Gardasil - a vaccine for STDs. And they said: "if you don't take the shots, you cannot attend public schools."

And you talk Socialism?

You don't have a bloody clue. It's because of Socialism that we'e going to have a medical system depression. If the pharmaceuticals and the AARP didn't run the House and Senate, we might have a chance to avoid it. But big-business Socialism and AARP pressure tactics will ensure that we keep spending more than we have.


Federal power is the problem
Federal government intervention into the housing market to attain the anti-Constitutional liberal philosophy of equal outcomes (home ownership for all) without equal responsibility (ability to actually afford and pay for a home), was the initial catalyst for the credit bubble. Government regulations approved the banks using Credit Default Swaps to “insure” the risk of these mortgages and free up risk capital to make more high risk mortgage loans to the “underserved”. From Econ 101, the huge increase in demand for housing exceeded supply, prices went up, home “values” increased creating “equity” in existing homes that could also be leveraged. Developers increased the supply of houses to a speculative level, increasing the demand for everything from the nails to bed sheets. High risk borrowers began to default (no surprise), the credit bubble burst, demand for homes and everything that goes in them dried up and the value of everything plummeted (Econ 101). Government intervention launched the credit bubble, permitted credit default swaps to be used to expand the availability of credit, and blocked actions on warnings about problems at Fannie/Freddie. BUT HERE IS THE REAL PROBLEM: the President and his ilk are using the economic crisis to vastly expand the control of the Federal Government at the expense of individual liberty and states’ rights guaranteed under the Constitution. Congress has gone way beyond the limited legislative powers of Article 1, giving Geitner and the President powers beyond the limited powers in Article 2. As Thomas Jefferson warned, “I consider the foundation of the Constitution as laid on this ground that ‘all powers not delegated to the United States, by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states or to the people.’ To take a single step beyond the boundaries thus specially drawn around the powers of Congress, is to take possession of a boundless field of power, not longer susceptible of any definition.”

Jim you are absolutely right...
about the drug crap going on. Doctors don't diagnose anymore, they just go by protocol, which seems to be nation wide.

My husband suffers the consequences of taking statins for way too long. He went from an energetic vibrant man to having to resort to walking with a cane and the depression that came with it was almost totally debilitating. He finally quit the statins and the rat poison. His doctor was so mad that he "fired" my husband via registered letter, as his patient after 12 years of slowly killing him.

We were witnesses to that doctor being paid off by a pharma rep, slipping a plain brown envelope in the doctor's lab coat pocket.


Lon
"That does not compute." Banks had regulations for self preservation but were forced to ignore them by the government. Is it starting to make sense to you? All of your "greed" propaganda is incorrect.

Tax Law Change
As mentioned above, there was also a tax law change in 1997 that helped exacerbate the housing bubble -- a $250,000 exemption on capital gains associated with the sale of a house. If you look at housing market indices, the sharp rise followed very soon thereafter.

Additionally, some of the worst bubbles occurred in places like Florida and California, where there are government restrictions on land use. Intelligent people can debate whether or not those are good things, but it is not debatable that if you restrict the amount of land that can be used for housing, you will increase the price of housing.

Joycey
Teh other part of the medical-sector depression comes from the health insurance industry. I don't blame insurance companies: they are in the business of making money. They are not in the business of insuring your health.

However, they invest a portion of their income, just as they should. And with very little to invest in that's profitable, they're forced to deal primarily with income/expenditure tables. To remain profitable, they have to put out less than they take in.

The problem is, insurance companies are getting squeezed: more demands from an increasingly demanding public, a public that won't do what real conservatives ought to do: take charge of one's own health care. Not medical care: healthcare. As Dr. Sowell stated so eloquently in one of his recent columns.

There's no doubt that our medical system is great for some things. Emergency medicine, for one thing. But we encourage people to become slaves to prescription drugs - your doctor is one of them, more than likely - and a slave is a slave is a slave.

Jim
"The lesson that should have been learned: don't lend to people who can't pay the loan back."

Banks managed to do just that for hundreds of years until the government stepped in and replaced sound lending practices with do-good social engineering.

Why do liberals place all of the responsibility on the lenders and not on the borrowers? Shouldn't the REAL lesson to be learned be: Don't borrow and spend more than you can afford to pay back (a lesson this administration would do well to learn, and one that most of us learned as children)?

Once again, the left seeks to absolve the irresponsible of their stupid decisions. I've had any number of credit cards for 20-odd years and somehow I've managed to never pay a dime in finance charges.

I have a simple formula: I don't purchase more than I can afford to write a check for at the end of the month.


Jim
I wasn't calling you anything. I was pointing out that you were using the wrong terminology to explain OBAMA's actions. It wasn't a knee jerk reaction. It was purposeful use of government to overstep it's boundaries. The people are afraid just like they were during the GREAT depression. The government overstepped then and is overstepping now. ON PURPOSE. OBAMA is going to "remake" America. He hates traditional America. He hates the free market. We are to be CHANGED. Into a communist's Utopia. He is a fool with an agenda.

Change has become a very funny word
Thanks to Obama and all those who think as he does.

Change the world
Change America
Change old values for new (which are not new).

Congress thought they could change the Laws of Nature.

Obama thinks he can change the laws of nature.
Democrats in general and many republicans think they can change the laws of nature and its hilarious to watch them make fools of themselves.

Utter contemptible fools.

Because they do not like the laws of nature, they go about wasting the production of those obeying the laws of nature.

When genuine fools are in authority, the people will suffer the affliction of the fools.

This is the problem in DC, its run by fools, idiots, morons, thieves, crooks and low life's.

Yet they are given praise by the dimwits in the media.

The Laws of Nature when transgressed against extract justice anyway and no man can stop it.

"by the sweat of the brow shall a man earn his bread"

All who try and get around this law, do so by criminal agendas.

Congress is filled with crime

Doctors and drugs
I'm 62. My mother was a hypochondriac and took medicine by the handfulls. My doctor can't really understand why I don't do the same thing. He has accepted, however, that I will take it IF NEEDED and will quit when I don't feel I need it any longer. So he doesn't push pills on my any longer. If he does suggest something, he has to explain why it is needed and for how long before I will consider it.

Everyone should do the same thing. Your doctor isn't responsible for your health; you are.

I wonder how much Section 8 has to do
with this mess. Section 8 housing has messed with the market, raising the rents in depressed areas far above what the market would bear without such tampering. That, in turn, has made ownership in those areas more attractive to "absentee landlords" who choose not to live where they own rental property. Chances are (at least in my opinion) the demand for buying up such properties for investment would not be so great if not for Section 8. If the demand were down, the prices would go down, too, and with more reasonable prices available, it is entirely possible that those who live in such areas would have been in a far better position to buy the available houses than they are with the market being skewed by Section 8.

Farmer's Wife
I'm sorry to hear it; I've heard lots of stories like that. Statins are going to be the next Mesothelioma for trial lawyers, frankly - (Or Vioxx)-(or Gardasil.)

You're right, as far as medical doctors becoming little more than Pez dispensers.

I saw something that made my conservative blood boil, too: my stepmother had a femoral neck fracture. Her family doc took the X-ray. She was sent to the Orthopod, who looked at the X-ray. Medicare was billed $900 for the look-see. They paid $450. Supplemental insurance paid $70. For a 10-minute office visit! And they didn't even take the X-rays!

There's your $900 toilet seats, reincarnated under a different set of tragic government mis-expenditures. And guess what? The government wasn't interested.

Back in the old days, Gingrich laid the hammer down on PT/OT. That was partly because they charged things like this: $15,000 for three months of ineffectual treatment in a Nursing Home, some of which consisted of poking
their heads in the door and asking:
"Mrs. so-and-so, would you like treatment today?"
"No, I don't believe so."
Ka-ching! Billed as an outcall, still paid because "patient refused care." Or was "uncooperative."

That's why PTs and OTs joked about "the $100 dollar walk." That's where they walk your Ma or Pa or Grandpa or Gramma down the hall and hit the "cash receive" button. Ka-ching! $100. Instant prize money!

We need Gingrich back. We are being robbed blind and bankrupt.


Throw The Book At Them !!
Dr. Sowell: Well the Specter move is giving Republicans some Hope and Change they can start to believe in. Now if you can make it mandatory that all Liberals must read your book, maybe they will start forcing out the "WAXMANS",(D-CA)types, that have made their lives so miserable with their "Good Intentions" and "Punitive Taxation" to pay for all of this crap! Well that's probably just wishful thinking because
Liberals think Obama One flying over NY and people runnig out into the streets in fear, was really funny!

Some additional information

Jim said:

"The lesson that should have been learned: don't lend to people who can't pay the loan back."
======================
Rock Strongo replies:
Banks managed to do just that for hundreds of years until the government stepped in and replaced sound lending practices with do-good social engineering
======================

As one who has studied financial crisis in American history, the culprits as you mention are the banks themselves.

The banks did not cause trouble by lending to people who could not repay, the banks loaned out more money than they could cover and crashed.

The culprits for all financial panics and depressions are inspired by the crooks who set bank policies.
And they never get the blame due.

Fractional Banking and Counterfeiting BY banks is the spider that creates the web.

Instead of cleaning spider webs, we need to kill the spider.
Bankers are the spiders who have weaved all the financial webs of every single problem in our economy since 1807

Rock Strongo
You got a point.

Borrowers have responsibility/culpability, too. Like the college kid who has cards shoved under his/her nose, even before graduation. Why not have it all, now?

I agree with you.

There's a useful image from One Flew over the Cuckoo's Nest (cruel, maybe:)
McMurphy tosses two pieces of food tied together by a sting, and the greedy gulls grab it and fly off, intertwined, neither one letting go.
"To death do them part," McMurphy says.

It's a useful analogy.

Exactly Jim...
It is very scary when your doctor becomes your dictator. We wrote this doc a very nice letter asking him to please let my husband participate in his own care. Saying that quality of life outweighs quantity. He didn't even have the decency to respond, and that after 12 years of my husband doing and taking everything he said as gospel.

BTW, after getting off all the poison, my husband is improving and feeling better than he has in years. The doctor said he would be dead in 6 months, 3 years ago.

Jim
I have nothing against prescription drugs. Some are used wisely and save lives. I'm sure there are dishonest doctors that have used some medicines to excess for profit. But we will always have people that use anything for dishonest gain. Both the free market and controlled markets are susceptible to dishonesty. In the capitalist system there are checks and balances. The word gets around if a doctor is dishonest in a capitalist system. It will not in a socialist system.

Talent Scout
That's also a great point: what you're describing - in physical terms - is like a man who borrows money to purchase a house. Then he borrows money for a second one, even though he doesn't have any equity in the first one. And another, and another.

Banks did the same thing, in a sense re-selling the same assets. And they got caught with out the ability - as you said - to cover.

That's also called a "margin call," a term someone earlier derided. Thanks for helping make the point.

Responses to Jim - 1
I didn’t make any general statements about your views regarding socialism; nevertheless, your stance with regard to bankruptcy legislation is completely at odds with the statement that you are “purely free market”. An essential component of the free market is integrity of contract. That the Left (who, contrary to your assertion, opposed the bill and voted against it 2-1) had instituted easier abandonment of one’s responsibilities was the deviation from the free market. BTW, I have absolutely no idea what is behind the non sequitur about inoculations…

“The connection between home equity loans and credit card loans…” is largely fictional (and, to the extent that it was not, was in no way the problem). The lending criteria in the home equity line arena remained stricter than in the loan initiation business. The excess liquidity flooded into the marketplace (and then withdrawn) as in the case of the Depression CREATED the problem. That people sometimes have paid other bills with more expensive credit has always been the case (and is problematic for them). It had NOTHING to do with the cause of the current financial crisis.

“The free market left alone” would never have allowed the massive malinvestments to occur in the first place. Your assessment of the economic consequences is completely wrong.


”[Bankers kowtowed] to the ACORNS and other liberal pressure groups…”

No. The REGULATORS kowtowed to these groups, which is the point that Dr. Sowell has been making.

“The late 80s were a period of overbuilding - particularly in Houston.”

This is a common misconception. Yes, there was overbuilding in Houston. There is ALWAYS some location where this phenomenon is occurring. It was NOT, as you suggest, an economy-wide problem nor was it in any way similar to the Fed-induced problems (exacerbated by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac) that created this crisis.

Joycey
The pharmaceutical lobby already runs Washington. They already write the healthcare laws. It's the allopath's system, and they're ruining it. It isn't a matter of a good physician here, and a bad one there: most doctors are deep in the pockets of the pharmaceuticals, or statins wouldn't be prescribed - not a 100th of the time!

If you break a leg, see your doctor; if you have type II diabetes, or high BP, you have personal measures you can take. But it's not wise to trust these guys. Not now. Vioxx should tell you something, shouldn't it?

By the way, would you like to participate in a human trial? Look up TGN 1412. You would be fortunate to be the recipient of the placebo.


Responses to Jim - 2
“The margin call at the beginning of the Great Depression was a grave aspect of the depression.”

To the contrary, the margin call was essentially a non-event (or rather a perfectly normal one) until the Fed, which had drastically increased liquidity in the preceding boom years, drastically cut back liquidity, making the meeting of those margin calls all but impossible. This was particularly the case when unit banking laws caused bank failures and access to funds became even more difficult.

The “greatly increased energy costs” are an economic red herring. It is an economic impossibility for the relative market for any individual commodity in the long run to drive asset bubbles such as the one that just burst. The underlying cause must always be monetary. If energy were less expensive, then, by definition, consumers would expend more of their resources elsewhere and the economic equilibrium would simply be different.

That medical costs have risen to a greater percentage of GDP is irrelevant and is an indication that a) prosperity leads to a desire for more medical care and b) the government-distortions of the medical marketplace drive prices even higher (largely by placing intermediaries between buyer and seller distorting market incentives). Any knowledge, or lack thereof, of statins, NNTs or TGN 1412 is utterly and completely irrelevant to a discussion of economic forces (about which I am fully versed). As it happens, I AM familiar with statins and NNTs (due to my own health issues) but then I am not foolish enough to pretend that any lack of knowledge about those things has ANY bearing whatsoever n the issues under discussion or that knowledge of these subjects gives one any economic insight.

talent scout
I must disagree.

"As one who has studied financial crisis in American history, the culprits as you mention are the banks themselves."

In each case when the banks have loaned out more than they could cover, it was the governmentally created system that was the culprit. Even before the central bank put fractional reserve banking in place, the government involvement was the key factor - all the way back to the panic of 1819 when the government manipulated banking laws so that banks would invest in government paper.

Certainly bankers have been instrumental in creating these banking regulations (and - you are correct - share the balme to that extent) but in the absence of governmental intervention, they lack the tools to engage in these practices at least as a group. Individual banks would still act irresponsibly, but the entire financial sector would not be affected.

Perhaps it seems mere semantics, but I think it is important to note that it is primarily a GOVERNMENT failure.

Joycey, it is not just...
a matter of a dishonest doctor. The fact is that out of dozens of cardiologists in our area, not one will take my husband as a patient. He is marked as rogue, because of his refusal to take any more statin drugs.

Doctors are all on the same page and they try to fit everyone in the same little box according to protocol, no diagnosis or judgment based on the case of each individual.

I experienced the same attitude by my oncologist after having breast cancer. Basically if I refused to take Tamoxifen, he wouldn't monitor my care. I took it because it was either that or I was on my own. I still hold my breath that I won't suffer any of the worse side effects of taking it.

BTW, AARP won't cover me now because I have continued to have annual exams by the oncologist along with annual mammograms and have been clear for over 6 years, but they call it ongoing treatment for breast cancer.

They are all in the same bucket and any patient that falls out of line, is put out to pasture.

selfevident =selfimpotant
Only 5% of homes that were transfered to underqualified buyers were foreclosed. The Problem was that the PAPER was sold over and over, hiding the toxic, contaminating the 95% of the good.
I havent read Mr. Sowell's book but I get the thesis that large portions of congress and many many lobbyists (largely unnoticed these days) did initiate and benefit from the housing bubble. Placing the time of the origin of this financial structure in the nineties doesnt make sense as housing is one of the fundamental three - food, clothing, housing- of human NEEDS and goes back a long long way. What CAN be documented is that more ownership of residences greatly improves the chances of neighborhood stability, values, scholastic success, reduced crime, generally benefiting every one every where. If that be liberal so be it.
Any federal support, money or policy, is pro-business first and people second. The business of home selling screwed the pooch, not the policy that regulated it. Just because you can doenst mean that you should.

Unfortunately too many people took sides on the issue before the real story emerged. Unfortunately most of them will have selective amnesia when it comes time reconcile their ideology with their political vote in the the future.
Unfortunately most of the money stolen from the
people-then and now- will never come back.
Unfortunately most of those involved in the mortgage business scams will get away with criminal acts and not be punished.
Unfortunately what could have been America's greatest shining moment in the sun, was prostituted to the 'what about me?' generation.

Unfortunately- we get the government we deserve.



Jim
I think you are getting carried away. Pharma is not perfect. But disease is what it is. What about my friends daughter that just came down with MS at age 19. If pharma can add a few years to her comfort isn't that a good thing?

F1etch
I SAID: the free market left alone would have kept this thing from spiralling out of control. That includes all forms of lending. The lenders who sell credit cards are backed by banks - just like the money that Payday-type lenders use is borrowed from banks themselves.

As far as regulators go: Bankers never have been considered terribly brave, and they tend to do what they're told by regulators. If you look at what banks are doing to Appraisors - they used to drive them to make higher appraisals - and now they're requiring follow-ups, because they don't trust the appraisals...
they tried to corrupt the apparaisal processes, and now they don't trust those they tried to co-opt. My advice: stick with small, local banks that know their own communities, not megaliths who invent useless, dangerous financial "products."

Talent Scout made some useful comments on the subject. Banking products - products - helped create the mess.

I know several bankruptcy lawyers. Most agree with my perspective on credit cards, and the link between home loan failures and credit card debt - they see the numbers. A dollar taken out of a bucket is a dollar taken out of a bucket, no matter which order you take one out.

Barney Frank and Chris Dodd helped create the mess, but predatory lenders didn't help. (Wait until cap'n trade hits, and people can't pay their mortgages, and a new wave of bankruptcies hit the fan.)

But no: medical spending isn't a non sequitur.
It's part of a progression of failures, inspired by a nation that thinks it's entitled to anything and everything. Fair blame all round.

Farmer's wife
I do not see how pharma is to blame. If doctors think a certain drug is the best they have to offer and you do not obey them why should they want to see you. They have nothing else to offer. I'm sorry that you have had to deal with breast cancer. My sister is going through the ordeal now. I think I would also see a holistic doctor to have all my bases covered as far as proper nutrition and exercise goes. Holistic doctors will see you. My aunt had an inoperable cancerous tumor on her spine. Her only choice was chemo and radiation. She did both and went to a holistic doctor. She juiced every meal for months. She is now cancer free. The tumor dissappeared. She has been tested and shows no signs of cancer. God be praised.

F1etch
"No. The REGULATORS kowtowed to these groups, which is the point that Dr. Sowell has been making."

Sorry but I have to disagree here slightly. These well organized liberal groups did pressure the banks as well as politicians and regulators. I don't think you get the complete picture of how they operate, and that it has been in the works and planning since the 70's. they start at a legislative level, then move to a regulator level, then move to the banks. It is a three prong attack and it has worked. Also one must couple stupid court decisions, and leftist media factors in as well. For banks, it comes down to what is more cost effective. Give in to the groups, or try to spend enormous amounts of resources countering the groups. It is about the bottom line. Bad publicity is akin to a lie. It gets half way around the world before the truth ever gets out of bed, and good luck undoing it. You see it here everyday on these blogs.

gov't is to do what?
The very people who profess less govt is best are now pointing the finger at govt neglect in regulating banking.
The dirty secret is that that when politicians need money they go where Willy Lomax went, to the banks, because that is where the money is.
Pay for play is the crime here.

Absolutely Disgusting
Tom Sowell is right on the money as usual. Read Bill Steigerwald's column from yesterday where he interiews someone from the Ludwig Von Mises School of Economics (aka Austrian School).

He nails it right on about the Fed and how their cheap money enabled all of the players in this fiasco, all acting on the belief everything was backed with the full faith and credit of the federal government.

So now the same crew that gave us "affordable housing" has moved on and after blaming capitalism and free markets for the debacle, now have their sights on providing us with "affordable health care" and "affordable clean energy" all to save the planet.

Who in the heck is going to save us from them?

No$
I was raised with the phrase, "Let the buyer beware." My parents and schools taught me to protect myself and be skeptical of everyone. Who is to blame those that take advantage or those that allow themselves to be taken advantage of.

Joycey
I am very familiar with MS. And some of the research the pharmaceuticals have done is terrific. Some of it.

They claim that they have to make profits at everyone's expense - like from statins - in order to pay for MS research. Last I saw, MS medicine - and medicines for less-common diseases - weren't any cheaper. And when trial lawyers get ahold of statins - which they eventually will - then the pharmaceuticals will go bankrupt. So how does that help your friend's daughter?

I think good work should be rewarded, but shoddy, fraudulent work (VIOXX?) should not be given patents and made insanely profitable and paid for by Medicare.

You're missing the point.




I know F1etch
This is where you let the spider go on and continue weaving its web.
========================
F1etch writes:

Perhaps it seems mere semantics, but I think it is important to note that it is primarily a GOVERNMENT failure.
=======================
Wrong
The Government had never been in the Banking Business until the creation of the FED.

Since the creation of the FED it has become a Government produced problem.
On that part of blame I agree with you.

But the Bank are the instigators of the plan that made banking the BUSINESS partner of Government today.

Under the US Constitution this IS a CRIME

Dr. Sowell
I also have to disagree slightly with you. Another problem with this lending mess is the entitlement mentality that is pervading our culture, and I don't mean welfare. I mean far too many in our society think they are entitled to everything under the sun and not required to put forth the effort to get it.

For a working man, 20% down on the value of a house is a lot, especially if wages and culture do not keep up with living expectations. Most people, at one time, 20% down or not, would have done any and everything to make that mortgage payment. It usually came first and foremost before all other debts, and household consumption was adjusted to meet it. Not anymore. People think they are entitled to that house, and that living standards within the home should not have to be adjusted to meet it.

Another aspect is the country has forgotten "Let the Buyer Beware", which isn't just a testament to keep from getting ripped off. It is also a testament to knowing what it is exactly that you have purchased and gotten yourself into.

Mark to Market
Sowell makes many excellent points, probably the best being about good intentions and mushy thinking. A comprehensive treatment of this topic would cover several volumes so it's not surprising that he left something out, specifically the function of the mark to market rules. In the fallout of the Enron meltdown, which was a precursor to what happened last fall, Congress passed legislation(Sarbanes-Oxley if I'm not mistaken) that required financial institutions to value financial assets on their balance sheets at current market resale value instead of discounted cash flow value. As underlying mortgages became harder to value, due to defaults and the twisted paper trail from MBS to real estate, the market for these instruments evaporated, leaving banks with cash flow, but insufficient assets to meet their resreve requirements. Because those requirements were not met, banks couldn't lend, and the credit market froze.

Talent Scout
"But the Bank are the instigators of the plan that made banking the BUSINESS partner of Government today."

Not totally. You forget about those all powerful committees and the deals that they make. Remember for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. the government has gotten far too deep into the business of business.

Joycey, all I am saying is...
that doctors no longer look at individuals. There is a national protocol for almost everything. Out of fear of being sued, doctors no longer are willing to allow a patient to participate in their care.

Read up on statin drugs and you will begin to wonder why doctors aren't listening to patients like my husband. There are other ways of treating cholesterol but they don't involve prescription drugs. Big pharma pays doctors to prescribe their particular concoction and it is downhill from there.

Don't you think that the Hippocratic oath would require a doctor to continue monitoring a person's health in the interest of information that the patient could consider when deciding whether or not the risk of other worse side effects were worth sacrificing quality of life?

Moonbat Exterminator
You are correct. Well said!

America has separation
Between Business and Government, under the Law of the Land.
The US Constitution.

NO WAY is it lawful for the Government to be in the banking Business. OR ANY Business.

There was a separation between the market and government up and til the creation of the central bank, the FED.

Without the FED, there would not have been the expansion of Government into all the hundreds and hundreds of areas the Constitution barred the Federal Government from being part of.

The BANK is the source for Government EXPANSION and SOCIALISM.
Both illegal under the US Constitution.

Lolo
Fair enough. Your assessment of the three-pronged attack is quite good. My only clasrification would be that, in the absence of the power of legislators/regulators/courts (all facets of the state) to impose their will on them, the banks have no ncentive to give in to the pressure of such groups.

When a business (it ain't just the banks) is faced with external pressure from unions, issue activists, etc., they only respond in what they perceive to be their own interests. Often they concede some point to the activists in an effort to forestall an even greater intervention by those legislators/regulators at some point in the future. Thus, without the power of the state available as a bludgeon, no one would give in to such pressure.

Avoiding bad publicity is certainly an inentive to these organization, but would only be a threat to the extent that paying to make the publicity goes away costs more than caving into the demands (and that - with the notable exception of settling court cases - is rarely the case). Customer demand for change (even in the labor market) is a fundamental aspect of the free market system. It is only when the state gets involved that the market is incapable of dealing with the issues.

Joycey
If doctors can't be relied upon to evaluate an NNT, then are you supposed to? Look up statins NNT. That is, Numbers Needed to Treat. It will shock you - (or it should.)

Actually, "buyer beware" is what I'm saying. You obviously have NOT read what Farmer's Wife has been posting. Farmer's Wife (her husband) is being penalized for practicing caveat emptor.

I know several women who wouldn't take HRT. They were told that if they didn't take it, they were "stupid." But they didn't get breast cancer, unlike many women who, unfortunately, listened to their doctor's advice.

Then there's the biphosphonates. They increase the danger of serious infection in the jaw, particularly with tooth extraction. (Will Sally Field tell you about THAT during a commercial break on Oprah?)

Trusting medicine these days is exactly parallel with the old lie:

"Trust me; I'm with the government; I'm here to help you."


Government Narcissism
Every time the power mongers in Government have an epiphany the people suffer with irrational legislation.

Governments deciding to dictate to free enterprizes systems always leads to disaster.

This time the disaster is greater than most. It has not only collapsed the world financial system, it brought Obama to the Presidency.

I did not forget Lolo
Just so much to this, it would take several books to cover it all


Talent Scout wrote:
"But the Bank are the instigators of the plan that made banking the BUSINESS partner of Government today."
=======================
Lolo1 writes:- 11:29
Not totally. You forget about those all powerful committees and the deals that they make. Remember for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. the government has gotten far too deep into the business of business.
=======================

Its a dance that took two, but one was the instigator and asked for the dance.

The banks asked for the partnership with government and because they had the money, and that is what the politicians live for, they agreed to dance together.

The Bankers instigated the Partnership and the Politicians ignored the Constitution.

Have you ever read this book Lolo?

I recommend it, its just very well researched.

The Creature from Jekyll Island : A Second Look at the Federal Reserve
by G. Edward Griffin

http://www.amazon.com/Creature-Jekyll-Island-Federal-Reserv e/dp/0912986212

talent scout corrections
"Wrong ... The Government had never been in the Banking Business until the creation of the FED."

Wrong. The Fed is not even the first national bank (it is the FOURTH) and the government has been in the banking business since AT LEAST Marbury v. Madison (1803). Still, that was never the only way that government could interfere with the financial sector and it was the state that famously created the Panic of 1819 by flooding the market with government bonds (to pay for the War of 1812) and then creating an environment where the banks were initially forced to buy them and then removing the link between bank notes and gold.

"But the Bank are the instigators of the plan that made banking the BUSINESS partner of Government today."

No. SPECIFIC bankers were responsible for that unholy marriage. Again, in the absence of the willingness on the part of government to interfere (dating all the way back to Hamilton), no such entity could come into existence.

And while the US Constitution grants no power to the government to create such an entity (rendering it unconstitutional, not a "crime" in the legal sense), The Bank of North America preceded the Constitution and Marbury v. Madison affirmed the constitutionality of the First Bank of the United States (chartered 1791). One may disagree with their ruling (I do) but that was what settled the issue.

Liberals always assume a STATIC model
The liberal mind never seems to be able to comprehend more than one variable at a time.

In the case of the mortgage crisis I completely agree that higher home ownership is a good thing. When people own their home they also take more of an interest in their neighborhoods. Crime goes down. Property values are stabilized. Many good things happen. But the policies that were created to increase home ownership were wrong.

When the government cause an unnatural increase in the number of people buying homes that caused the law of supply and demand to go into effect and home prices increased. This in turn brought investors out of the woodwork and they bought homes. This increased the prices even more and the cycle keep repeating it's self until there was a full blown bubble.
And all bubbles will burst.
Then the investors bailed out causing prices to plummet.

What myself and nobody else knew is that a few people defaulting on their mortgages would bring down the entire stock market.

Banking products etc.
I was sold a flexible rate mortgage about 7 years ago. I quickly converted to a fixed-rate loan - at a point when the interest rates were getting near the bottom. My banker advised against getting a fixed rate loan, maintaining that the rates were going to stay low for the forseeable future.

I told him: "There's either going to be inflation, or money is going to be impossible to borrow in several years. I don't want to wait for either one."

I was right: a professional lender was wrong.

Bankers aren't generally considered visionaries. And as Dr. Sowell commented:
"it was easier to pressure them to lend to people they would not otherwise lend to." And banks capitulated.

If you want to know where things are headed, in general, watch television advertisements. At the time the credit card default debacle became law, consolidation loans ("for your credit cards and other debts") were all over the place.

Just like ads for broken gold jewelry. You can see where things are heading by watching the ads. These days, probably the best investment is in the divisions of the companies that make personal lubricants.

And that's what banks have become, more or less. A personal lubricant for the government.


THINK FUNCTION F1etch
You are 100 percent wrong to compare the function of the former banks TO THE FED.
Nothing close to compare in their FUNCTIONS.
ok?
=======================
F1etch Location: PA
Reply # 1
Date: Apr 29, 2009 - 11:45 AM EST
talent scout corrections
"Wrong ... The Government had never been in the Banking Business until the creation of the FED."

Wrong. The Fed is not even the first national bank (it is the FOURTH) and the government has been in the banking business since AT LEAST Marbury v. Madison (1803).
====================
The 1st bank never issued currency.
All currency the Federal Government used was from the MINT.
Not the PRINTING PRESS.

The 1st bank was set up to handle strictly Government deposits and debits.

Some commercial dealings was allowed for those banks.

BUT NONE OF THEM WERE GIVEN THE POWER OVER THE ECONOMY AND THE PRINTING OF "MONEY" AS THE FED HAS TODAY.

So you are still 100 percent wrong

Jim: unsecured debt
Your debates here make some good points but I have a question for you. I was under the impression that credit card debt was unsecured debt. Why would a home owner take out a home equity loan (whose default could cost them their house) to pay off credit card debt which can not produce a lien on their home? Did the bankruptcy law change the status of credit card debt?


Moonbat Exterminator
You're pretty close. Mark to market (begun in 1993 - FAS 115) was created before Sarbanes-Oxley (which has had devastating long-term economic effects but was not a direct cause of this disaster) and, as originally conceived was NOT a problem. It is how it was interpreted and implemented that was a problem.

The basic idea behind mark to market is that assets should be valued at what they are really worth, not at some arbitrary purchase price long out of date. The failure to revalue assets was causing its own problems. In a normal economy, this change was unequivocally good.

The problem was that the Federal Accounting Standards Board (FASB) decided that, if there is no active market, then such assets must be written off completely. This was the case even if a bank held mortgage-backed securities that were not only not in default but were generating a steady revenue stream (capturing this stream is called mark to model). In at least one case (Provident Bank, though there are certainly others), reserves vanished because instead of having to write down $70 million (a swag) to reflect the real value of the assets, FASB required a more than $300 million write-off and the bank had to seek a partner.

simplistic answer
"When markets are left alone to operate properly, supply and demand prevents disasters like this from happening in the first place"

this has been proven to be false over and over again.

all markets are constructed for somebody's benefit. And the somebodies that have historically benefited from the big markets are a small number of people, not most American families.

I made a mistake in presuming that the self-interests of organizations, specifically banks and others, were such as that they were best capable of protecting their own shareholders and their equity in the firms," Mr. Greenspan said.

Referring to his free-market ideology, Mr. Greenspan added: "I have found a flaw. I don't know how significant or permanent it is. But I have been very distressed by that fact."

Greed, herd mentality and lies take easily over when human beings can make vast amounts of money by selling questionable products without being held accountable for the consequences. The average banker joe will take the money and run. The market is always shaped by the decisions of human beings: greedy and sinful human beings to be precise.



Anyone who compares
All the banks in America before the creation of the FED does not have a clue what they are talking about, PERIOD.

There is no comparison to the functions of any Bank in America to the monstrosity the FED has become today.

AND NO IT IS NOT CONSTITUTIONAL.

If it is not Constituional, it is ILLEGAL! period!

Constitution demands Congress control the issue of money and its value and limited to its income from the legal methods of taxation.
Which the present graduated tax on all labor, salary,tips is ILLEGAL TAXATION.
That is Marxism, not US Constitutional Law

talent scout
Yes, I am familiar with both the value and the errors of "The Creature from Jekyll Island" which is insightful but gets a lot of things wrong. A much better analysis can be found in the works of Murray Rothbard, notably "What Has teh Fed Done to Our Money?", "The Mystery of Banking" and "A History of Money and Banking in the United States".

"Its a dance that took two, but one was the instigator and asked for the dance."

Yes, and, again, the government (since Hamilton) had been relentlessly seeking a dance partner since the country was founded.

The functional distinction is a false one (and one of the problems with the book you cite) for a couple of reasons. First of all the ability to issue such currency dates, again, at least as far back as the National Currency Act of 1863 (just a half-century before the Fed came into existence. More importantly, however, the ability fo the federal government to manipulate the money supply LONG predates the existence of the Fed. THAT is the key power that the state uses to cause the problems in the first place. The Fed as it now exists is nothing more than the latest MECHANISM for carrying out this activity.

Date: Apr 29, 2009 - 11:45 AM EST
talent scout corrections
"Wrong ... The Government had never been in the Banking Business until the creation of the FED."

So you are still 100 percent wrong.

You might also consider "A Monetary History of the United States" by Milton Friedman and Rothbard's "The Panic of 1819" - which should quickly dispell the notion that governmental intervention wasn't the key economic problem long before the Fed came to be.

one last point
Nominal cost is literally how much cash you take out of your wallet and hand over for something. The real cost of something is its out-of-pocket cost plus all the implicit and hidden costs of getting and using it. For the whole free market system to work as advertised, nominal costs and real costs must be equal. There’s just one problem: they’re not. For example, the nominal cost, to you, of driving your car down 1 mile of road includes the cost of 1) the fuel burned, 2) the maintenance to your car and 3) a small amount of wear and tear on your car. In addition, the real cost includes the 4) the cost of road maintenance, 5) the cost of the air, noise, land and water pollution created by your vehicle, 6) the opportunity cost of not using the land under the road for something else, 7) the administrative cost of maintaining and policing the road, and a fraction of the cost of building the road in the first place. Costs 4 through 8 are paid by society. For the market to remain efficient, the tax on cars and gas would have to cover these expenses. It doesn’t. The same analysis applies to all sorts of things, including practically everything imported from China, everything that creates pollution, everything that uses a limited resource, and everything that relies on society’s infrastructure.


christianlib's historical inaccuracy
"When markets are left alone to operate properly, supply and demand prevents disasters like this from happening in the first place"

This has proven unequivocally true over and over again. In fact, no example exists where such is not demonstrably the case. The tulip craze, the economic panics, the Great Depression and even the current crisis can all be solidly laid at the feet of the state and NOT some "market failure".

Markets are not "constructed". They exist whenever two individals choose to engage in exchange. Markets exist only for mutual benefit. "Construction" requires the imposition of an external force and that always measn government. Such construction has always proved to be a failure. That some have relied upon the state to benefit themselves rather than "most American families" demonstrates nothing more than the inappropriateness of any governmental intervention at all - as, ultimately, that is all that such intervention accomplishes.

That Greenspan was ultimately the chief architect of the current disaster (with his manipulation of the money supply) renders him perhaps the worst possible source of an explanation for what actually happened. Greenspan has NEVER been a real "free market ideologue", but an interventuionist central banker - the very issue that caused the falling out with Ayn Rand (who fools keep trying to link his failed policies with).

Greed has always existed and is kept in check by ordinary market forces. It is only when government intervenes (such as dumping so much liquidty into the marketplace that investors seek new and riskier places to put it) that it becomes a systemic problem.

interesting interview
Most other economists rolled their eyes when Nouriel Roubini warned in a September 2006 speech to the International Monetary Fund that the global bubble was going to burst. They nicknamed him "Dr. Doom"—and then the hard times hit. As finance ministers and central bankers from the world's major economic powers gather in Washington this weekend, they might consider listening to what Roubini has to say now. The New York University professor told NEWSWEEK's Lally Weymouth why he sees more trouble ahead and what the recovery will look like. Excerpts:

http://www.newsweek.com/id/195053

F1etch
Thanks for the further explanation. The best part of this thread is the synergism of ideas that occurs here.

Norman
The laws forced some people to take Chapter 13 (which means that lenders will get some degree of compensation, instead of Chapter 7, which is usually reserved for unsecured debt, which includes medical debt and credit card debt.

However, people making over a certain income cannot use Chapter 7, and may have to use Chapter 13. (That bankruptcy plan can fail, too.)

Some people who don't want to engage in ANY bankruptcy at all are the ones who consolidated their loans. Particularly higher earners who live in nice neighborhoods and send their kids to private schools. Putting higher-interest credit card debt in consolidation loans made sense, if you were did not intend to declare bankruptcy, or if you had to settle for Chapter 13.

Right now, the number of filers is far greater than what they expected, just as the law in 2005 drove hordes of people into a rush for bankruptcy protection. That rush didn't help the current economic situation, and helped devalue the real estate market - as well as certain financial products.


Sorry about the caps F1etch
Not yelling even if it looks like it.
Just emphasizing the difference in all former banks to the FED.

The FED stands alone in how it functions.
Nothing like it in American History, as it was illegal and planned against this very thing from happening.

But all the road blocks to a central bank placed in the Constitution by the Founders have been gone over, under, around and through.


Jim, I fell for that too...
I took HRT at the insistence of my OBGYN and within 2years had breast cancer. BTW, there was no family history of breast cancer. My oncologist told me that Prempro was the culprit.

ChristianLib...
You are right. And if you look at how things are priced or valued, you see all kinds of hidden costs. There are also risks with any purchase. Risk can be shared by the provider via contract or tort and also by impact on reputation. But ultimately the risk at first level is borne by the consumer. Everytime government gets involved, it creates a distortion in the market. Inflation is generally bad, but if it is constant and predictable, then we can make rational decisions to eliminate or minimize the impact of inflation. The same is true for government regulation. You can argue whether it is good or bad, but people in the market place will figure out how to react to it. The problem with government intervention isn't the intervention as much as the unpredictability. One year Reagan is elected. Then another year Clinton is elected. Then the republicans control congress. Then Bush is elected. Then the democrats control congress. Then Obama is elected. Everytime political power shifts, government intervention in the market changes. And this creates an uncertainty that inhibits the free market more than the regulations themselves. It also creates winners and losers that has no relation to market value by creating an evironment for political gaming of the system.

More government doesn't seem to be the answer. Conservatives wail over Obama and the democratic congress. But liberals wailed over Bush and if/when republicans regain control of the White House and/or the Congress, expect liberals to begin wailing again. If government power was constrained as the constitution was supposed to do, then it wouldn't matter nearly as much whether dems or reps were in power. Neither would be allowed to intervene in our lives or the marketplace enough to create the uncertainty that hurts us all.

Good topic to kick up and look over
So I appreciate the banter with you F1etch


talent scout wrote: corrections
"Wrong ... The Government had never been in the Banking Business until the creation of the FED."

So you are still 100 percent wrong.
=======================
F1etch writes:
You might also consider "A Monetary History of the United States" by Milton Friedman and Rothbard's "The Panic of 1819" - which should quickly dispell the notion that governmental intervention wasn't the key economic problem long before the Fed came to be.
=======================

Lets do that, and I will show the reason the subject of the bank ever came up for the Government to do anything was because of the Crooks in Banking that has scammed the people

fletch
again, in a perfect world you economic philosphy might work, but it has never ever worked in the real world.

i respect your idealism but distrust your fanaticism.

let me put it this way, if, in fact, your economic fantasy world was as perfect and as ideal as you believe, every country in the world would be clamoring to use the austrian school model.

in other words, if your free market utopia worked then the free market would be using it.it would simply swamp all other economic theories and push them aside with its excellence and profits. yet, it remains obscure and unheeded.

can't you see the internal contradiction?

talent scout
The government was in the business of banking well before the Fed. Alexander Hamilton (a founding father, but an enemy at the same time) founded the First Bank of America, which was the precursor to the Fed. This led to the 1812 financial problems after the bank was shuttered in 1811 by Madison (who made the mistake of putting it back in place in 1816). Both of these banks operated in the same manner as the Federal Reserve, printing currency for government expenditures and their pseudo-private nature.

Also, government is frequently at fault for pre Federal Reserve financial problems, a big one was the fallout from the Coinage Act of 1873. This made all the silver held by banks and all currency backed by silver effectively worthless. It was the same effect as the CDS turning worthless. If it wasn't for government deciding, quite arbitrarily, that silver was not permitted to back bank notes, the problems wouldn't have persisted (among other things like government chartering of the Northern Pacific Railroad, which put a major bank out of business).

Nice try, ts
"All the banks in America before the creation of the FED does not have a clue what they are talking about, PERIOD."

Rothbard was the premier authority on banking hsitory in the United States (and the economic consequences of monetary policy). I have been an economist in the fainancial services industry, a researcher and amateur economic historian for 25 years (hence that list of reference material). The assertion that the government lacked the ability to cause the problems that it does before the Fed came into being is factually inaccurate.

"AND NO IT IS NOT CONSTITUTIONAL."

I did not say that it was. I said that SCOTUS ruled it so back in 1803 which is an historical fact.

The Constitution does NOT "demand[] Congress control the issue of money and its value". This one of the fallacies of "Jeckyl Island". The Constitution gives the POWER to coin and regulate the value of money, which is not the same thing. In fact, private banking and the issuance of money drawn on gold reserves was well-established and entirely permissable both before and after the document was created.

Further, so long as the 16th Amendment is affixed to the Constitution (a discussion of whether or not it was ratified properly is of no value at this point), income taxation, regardless of method, is Constitutional.

It is how that taxation is applied and spent that determines to what extent it is socialism.

F1etch you write:
talent scout
Yes, I am familiar with both the value and the errors of "The Creature from Jekyll Island" which is insightful but gets a lot of things wrong.
=====================

I would like to know of what he got wrong.

Nothing in that book is wrong as to its information about the FED and the bankers who scammed the Government with the aide of their hired hands in Government.

So name for me just one thing wrong in that book, if you will.

Lets see what you are claiming if its material to its main goal, discovery.

Nice try, christianlib
"in a perfect world you economic philosphy might work, but it has never ever worked in the real world."

As usual, you are completely wrong. In every instance that the free market has been permitted to operate, the results have been universally superior to those under government intervention. In fact, the chief reason that the US has performed so much better economically than the rest of the world is that it has been less eager (until recently) to embarce such interventions. THAT is the "real world".

"if, in fact, your economic fantasy world was as perfect and as ideal as you believe, every country in the world would be clamoring to use the austrian school model."

The statement is absurd on its face. Quite the contrary, the desire of individuals to accrue power to themselves has not vanished and people in government do not, as a rule, undertake measures that would diminish that power. No matter how obvious their screw-ups (the current crisis, for example), the only solutions they are interested in implementing are those consistent with continued government power (even though they have failed in every case).

In other words, the free market does not prevail because a) the state has every incentive to retain its power and b) it has been so successful in convincing the gullible that their own failures are really those of the marketplace.

The only contradiction is the absurd noton that governments, filled with people acting in their own interests, would abandon what preserves their power in favor of what ACTUALLY WORKS. It is one thing not to have any illusions that governments will willingly adopt what works; it is the height of lunacy to believe that what works would be adopted solely on the basis of its efficacy.

I had said, the FED is illegal
"AND NO IT IS NOT CONSTITUTIONAL."


=======================
F1etch writes:
I did not say that it was. I said that SCOTUS ruled it so back in 1803 which is an historical fact.
======================
No they did not.
name the case and prove it.
Just putting up the SC and 1803 does nothing to prove you understand what happened.


F1etch writes:
The Constitution does NOT "demand[] Congress control the issue of money and its value".
=======================
100 percent incorrect.

HERE!

Section 10. No state shall ..... make anything but gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debts;

=======================
The Federal Government never produced any money, they were recievers of money from the States.
So the States were required to pay their tax debt in either gold or silver.
There is is as plain as can be said.

Article 1

Section 10. No state shall ..... make anything but gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debts;
=======================

Then this F1etch is just as clear.

Article I

Section 1. All legislative powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives.

Section 8. The Congress shall have power to......

Clause 5

To coin money, regulate the value thereof,

NOT BANKERS AS THE FED DOES TODAY, BUT CONGRESS

talent scout
I've got to leave shortly. It isn't that it hasn't been worthwhile and don't worry about the caps; I get it.

There is much to be said for "The Creature from Jekyll Island". It was among the first books about the Fed that I read, followed by Rothbard's "The Case Against the Fed". Griffin, in his zeal to make numerous perfectly legitimate complainst against the Fed makes his case far more conspiratorial than it actually was and overstates the Constitutional problems with the Fed as it came into existence. It also misses a few key points about the nature of monetary manipulation (which has been going on for millenia - not just the last century).

Certainly the bankers involved in the creation of the Fed were acting in their own interests at the expense of everyone else but so, too, was the government which knew exactly what it was doing and why - to greatly facilitate the expansionist monetay policies that all governments are so eager to employ. It makes far more sense to blame the individuals involved and the government that benefited directly rather than the countless individuals in the industry as a whole who did not so benefit and were not directly involved.

Hope that helps. back when I can be.

Where we have gone wrong
Leaving the Principles the States Ratified into the Law of the Land as found and changing the US Constitution by-passing the Amendment Process to grant the power of Congress to COIN MONEY, (not print "money")

As long as we do not have an Amendment that changes anything in Article 1 of the uS Constition, it is still the law even if its IGNORED UNLAWFULLY AS IT IS TODAY.

Article I

Section 1. All legislative powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives.

Section 8. The Congress shall have power to.........To coin money, regulate the value thereof
=======================\
The word ALL means ALL, in total, summed up to exclude private bankers as the FED is.
Limited to the DUTY of Congress ALONE

jim
very good insight on the banker's view of his own business. Short sighted, income focused, and inclined to protect the status quo - until they dont.
Much of the present banking nonsense might have been avoided if Paulson and the Congress last fall had realized that banks are in the business of lending money. Now they have too much money (govt supplied) and have no need to lend it.
Stupid doesnt begin to describe that Treas Sec actions.

Marxists running the show now
The Free Enterprise American economic system is kaput, and has been for some time. Our previous faux 'conservative' President DOUBLED the National Debt during his eight years in office; and then, as a parting gesture before leaving office, 'torpedoed' the candidacy of the faux 'conservative' candidate that was about to replace him by the passage of the 700 Billion dollar "TARP" giveaway program ( aka, Robin Hood in Reverse, or, Socialism for the Rich, Capitalism for the Poor). Our current figurehead Marxist President was elected by being photogenic, smiling a whole bunch, and saying as little as possible that could be later quoted and come back to haunt him. The Marxist clique that is in power now will certainly not waste the opportunity presented by this 'economic crisis', but are moving forward on all fronts to gain total control of the economy, the remaining viable manufacturing interests in the U.S., and the U.S. banks. And if it just happens that they sink what remains of the U.S. economy by their wasteful, uncontrolled and irresponsible spending, so much the better for them. The demise of the U.S. economy would give them justification they need for total State control. Wake up, America.

One last before I go
“name the case and prove it.”

Marbury v. Madison. Look it up.

The federal government has the POWER to coin and regulate the value of money and that power is further denied to the several States but is NOT denied to the People (even bankers) who did so both before and after the Constitution was penned without problem. None of the selections you have provided alter or undermine that in any way.

Talent Scout and F1etch
Not news to you, I'm sure, but when interest rates were lowered, real estate prices went up. In other words, the total cost of the end of the life of the loan went up to the time just prior to the increase in property value.
And people taking out loans sometimes don't crunch numbers (though they should when they're negotiating the price.)

This is something that happened in a service industry: a certain insurance conglomerate promised that participants in this "access" program would increase the participating professionals' business by 30%.
The card holders - the clients - would get a 25% discount. Sounds great, right? That would mean a net increase of 5%, or that's how it appeared.

Here's how it worked out:
If you already had 20 clients and charged $50 a session, you would make $1000. If you added 6 clients (almost the 30%) you'd make 37.50 a session for those 6 clients. you'd make $225. OK that's an increase. You'd make $1225. OK, if you stop there. Call it gravy.

But then the company wants you to see more of their clients, and you see 13 at the discount (your max is 26) That's $487.50 for the discounted rates, and $650 for the regular clients. Together, it makes $1137.50 for 26 sessions. You're still making $137.5 more than you were. How can that be bad?

But then the company wants you to see ONLY their folks (which happened.) That means you see 26 clients for $975. You work more, get paid less. Great deal! For people who can't use a simple calculator. This is an imperfect analogy, I admit.

Thanks, Federal Reserve! Ya made a big, juicy, overpriced bubble, and you caused it to burst! Can we all agree on that?



Wrong
Justin writes: - 12:29 PM EST
talent scout
The government was in the business of banking well before the Fed. Alexander Hamilton (a founding father, but an enemy at the same time) founded the First Bank of America.
=======================

One hundred percent wrong.
Read my comments to F1etch about this mis-understanding.

The Bank back then was not a part of the Market Economy, nor did it control or print off its own paper as the FED does today.

No, those banks were needed by the Federal Government for the same reason you and I need a bank today.

For our deposits and debits.
Collections and payments.
NONE of those Banks functioned in any manner as the FED does today.

The FED today has usurped the Power of Congress over to themselves.

If we did not have this Bank, the FED, we would not have had all the Government Expansion and the Socialist Government we have today.
Nor would we have an UNPAYABLE NATIONAL DEBT.
As we do today

Liberals always assume a STATIC model
The liberal mind never seems to be able to comprehend more than one variable at a time.

In the case of the mortgage crisis I completely agree that higher home ownership is a good thing. When people own their home they also take more of an interest in their neighborhoods. Crime goes down. Property values are stabilized. Many good things happen. But the policies that were created to increase home ownership were wrong.

When the government cause an unnatural increase in the number of people buying homes that caused the law of supply and demand to go into effect and home prices increased. This in turn brought investors out of the woodwork and they bought homes. This increased the prices even more and the cycle keep repeating it's self until there was a full blown bubble.
And all bubbles will burst.
Then the investors bailed out causing prices to plummet.

What myself and nobody else knew is that a few people defaulting on their mortgages would bring down the entire stock market.

WHAT IN THE WORLD YOU TALKING ABOUT?
F1etch Location: PA
Reply # 3
Date: Apr 29, 2009 - 12:56 PM EST
One last before I go
“name the case and prove it.”

Marbury v. Madison. Look it up
======================
I know this case forwards and backwards.

And it has NOTHING TO DO WITH BANKING OR MONEY.

What are you talking about?

The SC did not create the FED!
You have gone so far off track you leave me stunned F1etch

Ok, I understand this is your opinion
I had thought you meant there were errors in the book.
=====================

F1etch writes:

There is much to be said for "The Creature from Jekyll Island". It was among the first books about the Fed that I read, followed by Rothbard's "The Case Against the Fed". Griffin, in his zeal to make numerous perfectly legitimate complainst against the Fed makes his case far more conspiratorial than it actually was and overstates the Constitutional problems with the Fed as it came into existence.
======================
I see it as he wrote it.
It did come into existence by a conspiracy.
That is a fact

Sowell hit the nail on the head!
Most of these loans were made in the lower to lower middle end of most housing markets. This is the foundation upon which the rest of the market relies. When the lower end of the market is healthy the entire market gets a boost. When to foundation cracks the upper end of the market crashes. These things are cyclical when left on their own and DISASTEROUS when government intervenes as it did here. Unfortunately this time around the "fix" is higher limits on government guaranteed loans (VA/FHA) that require only 3.5% down and the seller may pay all costs. Desperate homeowners will do this even if they need to inflate the sale price to cover these costs. The result? Plenty of people as homeowners, without much equity, in a government insured loan. Much of the same as before. It is risky at best. The downside to a conservative---- gubmint owned mortgages means gubmint owned homes to go along with gubmint owned banks. Gubmint HAS GOT TO GET OUT OF REAL ESTATE AND REAL ESTATE LENDING!

Point the finger of blame where it belongs---GOVERNMENT. It never met a "problem" that it couldn't make worse. Wall street, main street, and all the others simply built on the recklessness of it all. They were hardly the cause of this crash.

I know because I was there...
I worked for a mortgage servicer for 17 years. Thirteen yrs in, WaMu (more a savings and loan than a bank; unexperienced in mortgage lending or servicing; they wanted to get in on the real estate boom then going on; literally had a 'Five Yr Plan' for takeovers) bot our industry-lauded and efficient company and blitzkieged us, sweeping our good practices off the table. Forced multiculturalism contributed to morale destruction. Lending practices changed to suit the ideology begun by Community Reinvestment Act proponents. If anyone tried to question the demise of good, well-proven standards, they were literally told, "If you don't like the way we do things, LEAVE!" They outsourced many depts' jobs to India & Mexico and laid off hundreds (all while getting tax breaks from our city on claims they'd HIRE MORE locals - HA!); I survived for 5 yrs before forced out. Those who remain (now under JP Morgan Chase, since WaMu's stock deservedly tanked) are those who went along, were willing to bully resistors, benefited personally...
IDEOLOGY HAS CONSEQUENCES!

The first order of business after
we assume the majority in 2012 is to get rid of the FED and the next order of business is to get rid of the NEA, the Department of education and all government unions. Then get rid of the IRS and enact the Fair Tax. Within two years we will again be a thriving productive society. The great thing is we save billions of dollars while shrinking the size of government by getting rid of the dead wood.

Government is NOT the solution;
Government is the PROBLEM.

F1etch speaks sense
...been reading your posts and agree with your sensible approach - backing up your views with historical not hysterical foundings.

The reason that free markets succeed and capitalisms fails is that in free markets every one participates and wins. In capitalism the investor class takes advantage of the consumer and usually wins even when the markets collapse.
Just a simple observation and will be debated I am sure but I think the distinction is valid - there is a difference between free amrkets and capitalism. They are not the same but some tend to defend them as equals in application and morality.

P.S.
There's been COLLUSION between Big Government AND Big Corporations in lowering lending practices, causing much higher risk, and that's cost US ALL - BIG TIME.

You disappoint me, Mr. Sowell
Not a mention of the Fed. The culprit behind every recession since 1913.

Christianlib
I have always stood in awed wonder at people's ability to -believe-, truly and deep down, that government bureaucrats somehow have a better, wiser way to allocate the funds that an individual or company earns than the individual or company that actually earned it.

These same people see the supply and demand information that is constantly updating price as a chaotic system whose 'correct' functioning is some kind of weird coincidence. Yet, some bureaucrat in Washington could know all of that data in real time and allocate resources accordingly.

No matter how often and how convincingly the free-market price system dramatically outperforms centralized control, nothing can shake this faith. Even though the evidence is right under one's nose; the double digit unemployment and low standard of living common in socialized economies; the fact that even within this country, those industries least regulated (consumer electronics and computer/networking, for example) tend to be by far the most innovative and best adapted at helping even the poor gain access -- have you met a poor person recently without a cell phone and a tv who actually had a living space at all?

Look, which is more efficient and at lower overall cost for a given weight of freight: the US Post Office or UPS/Fedex?


Me and F1etch
Have some history, he very often uses facts that are irrelevant to the discussion though.

======================

No$ writes: - 1:28 PM EST
F1etch speaks sense
========================

Yes, and because he will not pay attention to the information I am giving, the FED will continue to steal the riches of America and own it, as they do today.

The bankers run the world governments in all financial matters.

And the bankers do not really care about principles or law, they love money over everything in the universe.

(speaking of the men who own the FED,the IMF, World Bank, not just bankers of local business)

So they will continue to make money hand over fist and enrich themselves at our destruction because F1etch makes so much "sense".

Farmer's wife, have your husband check
out chelation therapy. He probably needs intravenous therapy, not oral as the oral only gets about 5% into the blood stream. Dr. Atkins of the diet fame was a cardiologist and his treatment of a former coworker with chelation and low-dose tetracycline cleared his cholestorol and plaque (the real culprit) to such a degree that they went around the hospital showing the before and after measurements to everyone's delight and surprise.

The tetracycline is because the plaque forms around a small bacteria and having been in the body for a long time, your natural immune system does not kill it.

Any doctor that prescribes a statin for cholestorol, should be fired immediately and told to find another profession.

Serene1
Thank you for your real world story. Such first person experience matters more to me than all of the political posturing we get in the news these days.
When next I get to vote or choose my policy makers I will remember your story and know that 'all politics is local' and that good intentions gone wrong is a form of evil too.
In my company there is a trend toward diversity also. It is a big alarm to me because it means that change may come just for the sake of change and not for the best of the people in the company and its customers. Diversity planning is code for minority promotions. Witness the Connecticut firefighters problems.
Were I a recognized protected class I would resist such planned disruptions of good business practices. But I doubt that any will have the moral back bone to resist the money.

This country and western song
Tells a lot if one listens to its meaning.

John Rich - Shutting Down Detroit

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoIXxFSq7og

"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issuance of their currency, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered." -

-- Thomas Jefferson

We have allowed it today and is the source of all our financial problems and government expansion into hundreds of fields they once were barred from, when we followed the Constitution.

But because we have "sensible" people like F1etch, the FED will continue to rape America.

By the way, the FED has made out no matter what has happened to all the rest of us in this latest banking caused disaster.

federal reserve
The federal reserve played a big part in this whole fiasco. THe fed kept the interest rates extremely low instead of letting them move up and down in the free market.

This policy lead to too many people taking out loans since the money very inexpensive to borrow. This compounded the issue giving loans to people that did not meet the requirements for a mortgage loan.

Pheebor
You are absolutely right! What we fail to understand is HOW libs see people. Libs see all people as greedy, ignorant and uncultured. They see success as only ocurring because someone took more then they should have so the "injustice" must be corrected. Since they have no moral authority to right the wrongs, libs seek the power of a strong government to "level the playing field". In other words bring everyone down rather then expect everyone to be better.

Sowell
Good post. I may have to get that book to read.

For everyone else, I have written a post on this on my blog. I went a bit more indepth than Sowell did here and covered derivatives, which will be the ruin of us all.

Rich Not wealthy, Thank you
for the info. He has been on oral chelation for about 3 years. We have no providers in our area for IV. You are right about doctors prescribing statins. I was put on them too, no heart problems at all and guess what, if you take statins your health insurance premiums are higher, just for taking them even if no heart disease has been diagnosed.

talent scout & F1etch..
are not mutually exclusive.
My words: " In capitalism the investor class takes advantage of the consumer and usually wins even when the markets collapse. "
So, when the markets are running well no one cares so much. When every thing goes south, its the FED at fault.
Trouble is there is no way to test this theory out to satisfaction.
Get rid of the Fed and maybe the markets dont run so well for anyone, then what.
Oh, and did anyone consider that most of the world's wealth is not here in the US but spread all over the map?
So dumping the FED may put the US into a considerable disadvantage as the foreign investments, private and govt, might stop all together.
Just sayin'.

An overlooked factor
I have mentioned this before, but it bears repeating. I have heard almost no one expound on local government and how it has contributed to the defaulted mortgages.

My husband and I bought a 100-year old home in a suburban neighborhood in Indianapolis. It was a deteriorated property that was a neighborhood eye sore. We both worked our tails off for 8 years to restore this historic property. During that time, our property taxes shot up from $800 a year to over $3,200 a year. It would be even higher, but now the state has implemented some tax relief , but even that could be easily destroyed by the next administration.

During the housing boom, every vacant field was turned into a subdivision bursting with houses. At a time when more and more houses were being built, the overall tax burden on property should have declined, but runaway government spending caused huge increases. I did a little research on this, and discovered that even homes built by Habitat for Humanity were lost by their owners because of out of control property taxes.

When people purchase a new home, they set their budgets for the house payment they can afford at the time they purchase. No one plans for a 400% increase in taxes in just 8 years, and most households cannot afford it. This is criminal!

I think in many cases, local governments looked at people who were refinancing at low interest rates and decided everyone could afford to pay more in property taxes. What people get from the right hand, government always takes away with the left hand.

At one point, Indiana had the highest default in the nation on home mortgages. With every tax increase, citizens warned a huge mortgage default would occur, but the politicians did not listen. They wanted what they wanted.

There needs to be more said about this. Local governments are culpable in this mess and they should be held accountable

Correction
I meant to say our home is in an urban (not suburban) neighborhood. It's in an old part of downtown Indianapolis where some restoration is taking place.

Sorry sir, this is not correct
Justin writes: - 12:29 PM EST
talent scout
The government was in the business of banking well before the Fed. Alexander Hamilton (a founding father, but an enemy at the same time) founded the First Bank of America, which was the precursor to the Fed.
=======================
Wrong
That bank has zero comparison to the FED.
None, not a single thing other than the name of "bank".

=======================

Justin writes:
This led to the 1812 financial problems after the bank was shuttered in 1811 by Madison (who made the mistake of putting it back in place in 1816). Both of these banks operated in the same manner as the Federal Reserve, printing currency for government expenditures and their pseudo-private nature.
=======================

The Bank Panics of those days were caused by banks loaning out more money that was gold backed certificates than they could pay out when the owner of those certificates came for the gold.

The bank had no gold but had put out gold certificates anyway, as if they did have gold in their vaults.

Once the people who owned those certificates came for the gold that did not exist in the bank vaults, the banks simply closed their doors.

That is known as the Banking Panics, caused by banks.

Not the Government.
There is no comparison to the functions of the FED to any former bank in America.

Hamilton himself would not have allowed such a bank as the FED.

The Principles Of The Federal Reserve System. I. Centralization Of Reserves

http://chestofbooks.com/finance/banking/Organized-Banking/C hapter-XIII-The-Principles-Of-The-Federal-Reserve-System.ht ml

Listen folks
The FED tells the Government what is what as to the money supply.

The FED tells the Government what the value of their Bank Notes are.

This Government does not even have the power to Audit the FED.

Let alone tell the FED how to operate its central controls over the nations Economy.
Bankers run the Federal Government at the direction of the FED.
Not vice versa.

If people would stop thinking the FED is about doing good for the country and get their eyes opened that it is a private business the has a complete MONOPOLY over our Government and our Economy.

The FED has NEVER been audited, never and Ron Paul now has 89 signatures to pass a LAW to force these thieves to open their books.
28 signatures back in March, now up to 89 or 90.
======================

Ron Paul: Audit the Federal Reserve!

By tmartin • March 4, 2009
Ron Paul’s bill to audit the Federal Reserve continues to gain momentum. Last week’s announcement quickly became one of the most popular articles here at RonPaul.com, and H.R. 1207

http://www.ronpaul.com/2009-03-04/ron-paul-audit-the-federa l-reserve/

I do not care what people think about Ron Paul, on banking there is none better

Justin wrote
Both of these banks operated in the same manner as the Federal Reserve, printing currency for government expenditures and their pseudo-private nature.
========================

There had never been a single fiat paper bank note used by the Government in America until the FED.

The Government as Founded in 1789-91

Economic Warfare
Is all about who controls the issue of money and its value.

European Bankers began to fight against the American Colonies who were using their own money, the Continental.

They had to destroy the Continental before they could step in and take control over the Colonies money supply.

This is the essence of all one needs to know of the problems with banking and money.

Banks war against any Government that wants to control their own money supply.

What the banks do for interest can be done by the Government interest free.

The bankers had Lincoln’s government over a barrel.

The bankers were willing to lend only under circumstances that amounted to extortion, involving staggering interest rates of 24 to 36 percent.

Taylor said:



“Just get Congress to pass a bill authorizing the printing of full legal tender treasury notes . . . and pay your soldiers with them and go ahead and win your war with them also. If you make them full legal tender . . . they will have the full sanction of the government and be just as good as any money; as Congress is given that express right by the Constitution.”

Good read:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=13118

We do not need the FED.

When---
When a bunch of us were younger we would sometimes see some hippy dude with a sign that said "the end is near" , and we would laugh at him. If we saw him today with that sign, we might not laugh. The fiat money, spineless politicians, illegals, big pharma, common thieves "taxes for the left wing", and of course the inflation will come around soon enough. What then and what next??

To prove what I am saying about the FED
Read this

quote Newt Gringrich:

Two Historic Bureaucratic Power Grabs
In these first 100 days, the Obama Administration has achieved two historic bureaucratic power grabs:

* President Obama has transformed the Federal Reserve and the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC) into giant engines of unsupervised spending. Together, they've spent the equivalent of the entire federal budget for 2007, without having to disclose where the money went.

* Just two weeks ago, the President presided over an unprecedented bureaucratic power grab when his Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) ruled that greenhouse gases pose a threat to public health. This seemingly innocuous decision opens the door to wholesale regulation of American life by government. The threat is so great that politicians and activists are using the specter of an out-of-control EPA to force Congress to pass a $1 trillion to $2 trillion energy tax in the form of cap-and-trade legislation.


unconvicted felons frank and dodd said:
about government-run fannie mae and freddie mac:

fwank: "The more people, in my judgment, exaggerate a threat of safety and soundness, the more people conjure up the possibility of serious financial losses to the Treasury, which I do not see. I think we see entities that are fundamentally sound financially and withstand some of the disaster scenarios..."

dodd: "I, just briefly will say, Mr. Chairman, obviously, like most of us here, this is one of the great success stories of all time."

Dr. Sowell
Once again an excellent column. This is always the case when the gov. gets involved. I think they mean well, but they distort the system so bad that it crashes. This new admn. though is diffrent, as the are grabing power for the sake of the power over peoples lives. The trinity of Energy, Health, and Ed.. This is what scares me.
Kirk

F1etch
Just a note to say I enjoy your comments and respect your obvious knowledge of economics and economic history. I get so tired of educating, it is fun to absorb is for a change. I think some of the confusion stems from folks who believe themselves to be right or left, but are not libertarian, or economist enough to understand what is free market and what is yet another government intrusion. Maybe Uncle Milt has access to the internet.

Looking for "a"
Calling all THers:

I am looking for "a" so if you see him posting anywhere please tell him I have a response to him on Brent Bozell's current column. We are trying to set up a little get together and I don't want him weaseling out of it.

Thanks

Sure Tom, Leave Out the BIG ONE
THE AMERICAN DREAM DOWN PAYMENT ACT of 2003 BUSH AND THE LOCK-STEPPED REPUBLICANS RAMMED THROUGH.
http://www.hud.gov/news/release.cfm?content=pr03-140.cfm

Bush at signing..
"This legislation will authorize $200 million per year in down payment assistance to at least 40,000 low-income families."
http://www.americandreamdownpaymentassistance.com/whsp12162 003.cfm

"The volume of subprime loans tripled from 2002 to 2006."(page 13)
The Office of Federal Housing Enterprise Oversight (OFHEO) NOVEMBER 2007 REPORT.
http://www.ofheo.gov/medi/pdf/OFHEOPARNovember2007508.pdf

Housing boom and bust.
Yes, yes, good intentions abounded on all sides. The Dems pushed easier home ownership as a matter of social justice. The Repubs wanted more home ownership to promote social responsibility (owners generally being more responsible and caring of their abodes and neighborhood than renters). Both sides also saw political gains for themselves. However, there's that pesky proverb that "the road to hell is paved with good intentions," and that's where we are now. Time for change with which we can "live long and prosper."

Dr. Sowell is right, nothing new there
...but you folks are missing the point, generally. Let these three people enlighten...

"No matter how paranoid or conspiracy-minded you are, what the government is actually doing is worse than you imagine." - William Blum

"My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government." Thomas Jefferson

“A government big enough to give you everything you want is strong enough to take everything you have.” Thomas Jefferson

“Government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem.” Ronald Reagan

If it isn't obvious, now, then you will eventually choke on your statist theology.

Nice article!
As a culture, we really need to reevaluate our slavish aspiration to become an "ownership society."

What is so wrong with affordable rent-controlled living in a comfortable urban setting, where work, goods and services are a bike or bus ride away?

Nothing.

IMHO, the dream of suburbia is to blame for this mess, and it's time to adjust that dream to the reality of a planet with 6 (?) billion people living on it.

Blaming Bush is Absurd
GW Bush never had the political capital to do anything about Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae. These organizations were embedded in the Democrat political machine. Any attempt to reform them in a meaningful way would have been met with charges of racism. And, let's face it, when Democrats charge racism agains a Republican, the verdict is always Guilty. The media would see to that.

Who Could/Can Afford a House Anyway???
My wife and I were contemplating buying a house in 2003 when we lived in Hawaii. A 2,000 square foot home in a "dubious" location would've cost us over $450,000. We both worked and still couldn't afford it... well, unless we'd have taken a subprime loan. I talked to plenty of mortgage lenders willing to make us a loan, but after the mortgage, loan to cover the downpayment, utilities, food, car, car insurance, gas, etc (you get the point), there was no way we could afford it. A friend told me to get a 5-year ARM that would effectively cut the monthly cost, but it sounded speculative to me. Anyway, we decided against buying because it would've put us in a precarious predicament if one of us lost a job or some event caused undue financial stress. My point is that some folks aren't supposed to own a house I guess... that's me for now until I can scrape up the 20% for a downpayment. A house isn't promised to everyone. That's why it's the American Dream - dreams take hard work and dedication to receive vice a gimmick of the state.

What is the default mix?
If you listen carefully, people who are behind in their payments fall into several categories.
There must be a banker out there somewhere who knows what the mix is. Its important in assigning blame.
1. People who are in default because they lost their jobs
2. People who are in default because they were given credit they probably didn't deserved because of low income
3. People who falsified finanancial statements
to get loans. These are typically flippers.
4. People who are walking away because their house is worth less than the mortgage
5. (a new group) people who are in default specifically to get government assistance
What is the percentage of each group?

Freddie and Fannie
Dr. Sowell's article doesn't mention Freddie and Fannie specifically but it is those government controlled financial instituions that primarily took the risk from the lenders and bought the bad mortgages.
Also, knowing the risk would be bourne primarily by Freddie and Fannie, the workers involved in the home buying business were only to happy (greedy) to make a fortune collecting points and fees.
Would the government please stay out of our business!!! They couldn't even manage a hotdog stand!!

Selling mortgages
A few years back I started smelling a rat when my mortgage was sold repeatedly to banks 1500 miles or more away from where I live.

I commented to my family at the time that a bank had no incentive to be careful about lending because it had a guaranteed return when another institution bought that bank's mortgages wholesale. If I could smell that rat, why couldn't the so-called financial experts of both parties?


Thank you Talent Scout
for the link:

http://www.ronpaul.com/2009-03-04/ron-paul-audit-the-federa l-reserve/

I have contacted my rep. This needs to happen.

Any Fool could see.
I'm not a financial genius, but it was obvious to me several years ago that a crisis was approaching; and I question why our political leadership did not see it or just ignored it.

When the “Affordability Index” drops from 34% of those in a home who can afford the mortgage, to 14%, in a relatively short period of time, there’s a really big problem.

Both political parties deserve to forfeit all their incomes “earned” during this period (between the above 34% and 14%). If they had any honesty, or integrity, they would do it voluntarily, just as they expected those receiving those large AIG bonuses were asked to do.

If we want America to survive as the greatest, and freest nation, on this earth (and I hope you do too), we had better reign in our corrupt political politicians (Parties) by becoming more knowledgeable on what their morals and values are based before we elect them to Office. This must start at the local levels and work its way up to the top.

Most who read this post will ignore it and go on as usual-basing their votes on the political fliers that come around the week before an election.

Hopefully, some of us will start researching who these candidates are, and for what they truly stand.

Affordable Housing To Whom
I've been saying it till I'm blue in the face, to the point now, I've changed races.
Instead of being a Black Man I'm now a Blue Man or like Curtis Mayfield once said "we people who are darker than blue".
The reason for my slight change in pigment is because I've been saying it for some time now, anytime you hear the liberal mantra-"WE LIVE IN THE RICHEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD BUT" is usually followed by either there's no reason why a mother with eight kids with no visible means of income can afford a $450,000.00 home or a Senator from Connecticut gets this sweetheart deal from Nationwide Mortgage Company.
I tried to get the same deal from Nationwide with a two income household, and they kindly asked me to leave the premises, but not before requesting the names of my great, great, great, grandchildren, fingerprinting, a DNA, Stool and Urine sample, twenty-two forms of Identification, my Ancestors maiden names and also the maiden names of my wife, her ex-husband's wife and the names of all of my wife's and my friends going back to kindergarten, and the piece de resistance, would I consent to be waterboarded.
When I mentioned the fact that I'm a veteran it was quickly followed by a terse "AND", however if I were to have this certain Senator from Connecticut write a letter on my behalf and my wife started taking fertility drugs and bore ten kids by her migrant lover Raoul who came a cross the border yesterday, I too would get a sweetheart deal.

redsand 7:55
Precisely. Now when the fed gets into the mortgage business it destroys the local banking economy by effectively moving the responsibility of repayment out of town. Without a local institution to care what happens in it's own back yard only poverty can result.

NEXT TEST WILL BE "GENERAL MOTORS"
Wait till everybody gets a load of General "Government" Motors. By the time the world's most green, politically-correct, Al Gore designed cars roll off of the assembly line they'll be so expensive the taxpayers will have to subsidize each and every one in order to make them competitive in the marketplace. That's assuming they don't do away with the engine concept entirely and install pedals. Then even a subsidy won't help. Get ready to grab those ankles, taxpayers!

You always get to the real problem!

This makes sense to me now. Why the government would bail the banks out. Still do not agree
that they should.
The government used coercion to cause the banks to conform to their desires.
What a sorry mess.
Like everything else they touch (Government) it turns to fizzle dust!

Centered
Mr Sowell,

Thank you for the putting this issue in perspective.

Your reasoned analysis is appreciated.



Ding Ding Ding!!
Thank you Thomas Sowell.

This is the type of journalism information Americans need access to.
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