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Wednesday, November 19, 2008
Thomas Sowell :: Townhall.com Columnist
The Right To Win
by Thomas Sowell
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Among the many new "rights" being conjured out of thin air, a new one seems to be a "right" to win.

Americans have long had the right to put their candidates and their ideas to a vote. Now there seems to be a sense that your rights have been trampled on if you don't win.

Hillary Clinton's supporters were not merely disappointed, but outraged, when she lost the Democrats' nomination to Barack Obama. Some took it as a sign that, while racial barriers had come down, the "glass ceiling" holding down women was still in place.

Apparently, if you don't win, somebody has put up a barrier or a ceiling. The more obvious explanation of the nomination outcome was that Obama ran a better campaign than Hillary. There is not the slightest reason to doubt that she would have been the nominee if the votes in the primaries had come out her way.

As the election approached, pundits warned that, if Obama lost, there would be riots in the ghetto. We will never know. But since when does any candidate have a right to win any office, much less the White House?

The worst of all the reactions from people who act as if they have a right to win have come from gay activists in the wake of voter rejection of so-called "gay marriage," which is to say, redefining what marriage has meant for centuries.

Blacks and Mormons have been the main targets of the gay activists' anger. Seventy percent of blacks voted against gay marriage in California, so racial epithets were hurled at blacks in Los Angeles-- not in black neighborhoods, by the way.

Blacks who just happened to be driving through Westwood, near UCLA, were accosted in their cars and, in addition to being denounced, were warned, "You better watch your back."

Even blacks who were carrying signs in favor of gay marriage were denounced with racial epithets.

In Michigan, an evangelical church service was invaded and disrupted by gay activists, who also set off a fire alarm, because evangelicals had dared to exercise their right to express their opinions at the polls.

In Oakland, California, a mob gathered outside a Mormon temple in such numbers that officials shut down a nearby freeway exit for more than three hours.

In their midst was a San Francisco Supervisor who said "The Mormon church has had to rely on our tolerance in the past, to be able to express their beliefs." He added, "This is a huge mistake for them. It looks like they've forgotten some lessons."

Apparently Mormons don't have the same rights as other Americans, at least not if they don't vote the way gay activists want them to vote.

There was another gay activist mob gathered outside a Mormon temple in Orange County, California.

In the past, gay activists have disrupted Catholic services and their "gay pride" parades in San Francisco have crudely mocked nuns.

While demanding tolerance from others, gay activists apparently feel no need to show any themselves.

How did we get to this kind of situation?

With all the various groups who act as if they have a right to win, we got to the present situation over the years, going back to the 1960s, where the idea started gaining acceptance that people who felt aggrieved don't have to follow the rules or even the law.

"No justice, no peace!" was a slogan that found resonance.

Like so many slogans, it sounds good if you don't stop and think-- and awful if you do.

Almost by definition, everybody thinks their cause is just. Does that mean that nobody has to obey the rules? That is called anarchy.

Nobody is in favor of anarchy. But some people want everybody else to obey the rules, while they don't have to.

What they want is not decisive, however. It is what other people are willing to tolerate that determines how far any group can go.

When the majority of the people become like sheep, who will tolerate intolerance rather than make a fuss, then there is no limit to how far any group will go.

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Thomas Sowell is a senior fellow at the Hoover Institute and author of The Housing Boom and Bust.
 
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First
First!

What's the point
Why have elections and ballot initiatives? I always thought it was to determine how most people feel about a person or idea. It seems that some feel it is supposed to be a public affirmation of how they feel. If it turns out that most of the public don't agree then its tantrum time. I've even been reading articles that seem to think that black Americans should be willing to stand behind the gay movement because they supposedly share some bond of oppression. I hardly think comparing sub-human treatment with having to settle for a civil union instead of a marraige is comparable. Its time to stop acting like children

Okay, its time for me to act like a child. Did they really tell someone to "watch their backs"? OOOoooo.

Speaking of the "Obama Riots" Threat...
...is a liberal form of racism. When "Do the Right Thing" was about to come out, leftist columnist Joe Klein predicted Black riots. Of course there was not even a reaction in a few theatres equal to the scattered incidents following the release of "The Warriors" and "Boulevard Nights." It was just Joe suggesting that Blacks can't control themselves.

Note that none of the marching, misbehaving, and violence of the anti-Prop 8 crowd was seen PRIOR to the election, which dovetails with Dr. Sowell's point. After no Democratic attempt to persuade, we have to suffer childish refusals to face electoral results with which they disagree.

And why aren't they protesting Obama, who claims to have been against gay marriage, too? (Answer: Because the left knows full well that Obama is pro gay-marriage, as Michelle Obama implied many times: Leftists simply don't hold their candidates to a standard of truth. Elections are more like games to them than democratic process.)

Thank you, Dr. Sowell
Whenever Dr. Sowell writes about a subject, it is concise, it is thought provoking and his arguements are logical and unasailable. When you read about his criticism of these gay riots, you can almost hear their arguments cracking and failing. Of course, the gay activists don't want to hear commonsense arguements, they simply wnat you to love them and every hairbrained scheme they advocate.

Why does the Government define marriage?
Why can't the Government get completely out of the "marriage" business and give it back to churches, where it started. (Separation of Church and State) The Government should only issue civil union contracts, not marriage licenses. Churches could issue Marriage Licenses, but they would have no legal significance, only religious. Simply do a "search and replace" in all civil laws and replace "marriage" with "civil union."

Down with Machiavellian Misnomers!
Now is an excellent time to abandon the highjack of the perfectly good word "gay", and call them (correctly): homosexuals. There is nothing gay about these sullen mopes.

By the way, let's put "red" back where it belongs; on the lefties. Conservatives are "true blue".

Because Government Prefers Marriage
Since you can't bring same sex unions UP to the level of marriage, now you want to bring heterosexual marriages DOWN to the level of civil unions. No thanks. As the arbitor of societal ideals, your government PREFERS marriage. That's why it is in the marriage business. Since stability, harmony and reproduction are essential to an enduring society the preference for heterosexual marriage is inevitable. Of course it's only been that way for a few thousand years...maybe it's time to get used to the idea!

Let's not leave out...
...the no physical reaction of Christians(in the case of the church invasion).Since when have Christians been pacifists?I cannot understand why that church invasion in Michigan did not result in broken noses and bloodshed.Were there no men in that congregation?If you were a homosexual activist,wouldn't you think twice before you invaded someone's church to disrupt the services,if it meant you would have to bleed for your opinion?Why did the homosexual activists avoid the Black community?Isn't it obvious?

Diss me,I'll diss you back.

Definition
It seems marriage itself needs to be defined as a union of two people who have the physical capability to reproduce offspring.
For gays, they should find a new word for what they want to call their union.
I know that hooking up two batteries doesn't work + to + or - to -; just + to - works.
Is some vegtable farmer going to want to call potatoes tomatoes because he can get a better price next? I mean they are both vegtables, so what's the problem.
If I ask someone if they're married, in mixed company, I'd prefer not to have to ask the obvious follow up; (who's the lucky gal or guy)?

Thank You Thomas Sowell
Thank you for this insightful piece. Somehow popular culture has twisted reality to the point that any mainstream institution can be savagely attacked using outdated stereotypes and Hollywood imagery. The established cultural instituions of America are now so de-clawed that they cannot even defend themselves from outright violence. The outrageous hypocrisy of the gay-rights movement is that they seek to squelch the very free speech rights they tout! I am afraid that this is yet another manifestation of the entitlement mentality. The happy partner in all of this is the MSM, no longer able to honestly identify violence and lawlessness (unless it is committed by white heterosexual southern males).

Old MacDonald Record
When my sister was small, she had a Little Golden Record of Old MacDonald Had a Farm that she loved obsessively. One day, as was common in those days,we had a power outage. Sis started demanding *I wanna hear my Old MacDonald Record.* Mama explained to her that the power was out and the record player would not work without power. Sis listened quietly, and when Mama stopped talking, she repeated, *I wanna hear my Old MacDonald Record.*

To this day, when people obsessively demand what they have already been told they cannot have, we refer to that as wanting to hear their Old MacDonald Record.

Of course in our household we did not riot when our parents said No. (This was commonplace, apparently; Saturday I was at IKEA and somebodys child was screaming for some goodie Mama had refused to buy her. Everyone in the elevator agreed that in their families growing up, the answer would have been *If you dont stop that, I will give you something to cry about.* It is time for the country to give those rioting homosexuals something to cry about.)

Defining Winning
Dear Dr. Sowell,

Compare the Republican idea of marriage with the Democrats: Republicans have certain conjoining issues, even though there are serious differences. The Democrats? Not many unifying themes. Winning was the Dems' only goal, Howard Dean's raison d'etre. After that? Civil disunion. Couldn't call it marriage. So while Parker is trying to toss the Palin voters overboard, the Dems are untying the knots to their own wedding tresses.

Not in celebration, though - (might even say they've developed "honeymoon cystitis" without even having consumated the marriage.) The Dems call what they have "marriage," but it's really better defined as a "civil union." Except that it isn't civil.

What they have is a divorce that they don't even know is underway.

AudiR10
You said it right, Where were the men is a good question & i would add, where were police or National Guard?

A few well placed shots would have given these mental cases something to think about.

If the government won't defend freedom of speech & allow militants to harm other people or thier property, then thet are inviting vigilantism.

Winners & Losers
What Dr Sowell is addressing is the confusion, mostly on the part of the left between rights and privileges. A privilege is an unconditioned license to do something, whereas a right is linkeed to a concommitant responsibility. For example, the freedom of speech is limited by the responsibility to speak truthfully. Slander and libel are still criminal offenses. The idea that participation in the political process, which by definition is a binary choice, is a garauntee of success is irrational.

Underlying problem
We are getting angrier and angrier for a reason. We have degenerated from a republic into a democracy and put far too many decisions to a majority vote. Most of these decisions should have been left to individuals, but now, too much is riding on every election, and losing one means to lose a lot.

For example, why should my children have to march in lockstep with all other children in a government monopoly school? I have to argue with my neighbor over what will be taught instead of using a voucher and buying approximately what I want.

When a "right" is not right it is not
... a Right, it's an imposition.

As Doctor Sowell, it goes without saying, knows only too darned well, a Right comes to a man only from his Creator -- and neither takes from nor imposes upon any other man.

But don't waste your time suggesting so to any of the FasciSSocialist Derangement Syndrome suffering Saul Alinsky Stalinists, tongue-chewin' babblin' idiot junkies, pathologically-envious and/or greedy and/or crypto-fascistic fanatics who comprise the modern "Democratic" party and its base.

None of that shower gets right what's "right."

Right?

Brian Richard Allen
Los Angeles - CalifUBAMAcated 90028

Nazi blueprint
In Hitler's book "Mein Kampf" he stressed that "Might makes right".
One of his tactics was to get in his oppositions face with threats of physical violence.
The violent survive and rule the passive.
Energy and raw force triumph over logic and reason.
These are the rules of the gay rights protesters. Vote our way or suffer our wrath.
As far back as 20 years ago I had read that Mein Kampf was being used as a textbook by the gay rights groups to learn how to effectively protest. Look at the actions of "Act Up".
There is very little difference between them and the Nazi Brownshirts.

Notice how most of the media continues to praise the protesters for their passion and devotion to their cause. If any Christian or conservative group did anything like this it would be universally condemned. Including by Christian media.

Proud
I'm proud of the Mormon Church for their steadfast position on marriage and the support given to Prop 8. As a non-Mormon, I am motivated to make a contribution.

The main stream Protestant denominations that opposed Prop 8 are just like the MSM. They continue to lose membership and with a finger up their nose can't figure out why. I prefer to let them continue their demise but fear that just like the Big 3 auto companies they will try to get a federal bailout.

Opportunity
Gays bashing black people. Gays bashing people who exercised their right to vote. Gays bashing Christians-many of whom voted for marriage but a president who promotes abortion. Yes, this is bad.

But it is also an opportunity to divide coalitions held together by their opposition to conservatives. We do a very good job of assessing the situation. Now it is time to wonk their noses.

CHECK OUT HOW THE MEDIA ELECTED OBAMA

http://howobamagotelected.com


CHECK OUT HOW OBAMA WON!

http://howobamagotelected.com

The media elected Obama with their everybody should vote it's your duty.

No one should vote that doesn't care or know anything about politics.

"USEFUL IDIOTS"
Anytime the left assembles there is something much more sinister than their veneer.
Check where these people work?
How many do not work?
Who is funding the protest?
Who are the leaders?
Leaders ties to Communist or hard left orgs.?
Just a few questions. This is an "old" game plan. They want "fairness" without an election.

Couple of Facts!
Fact One:

You cannot take from someone, something they have never possessed!

Fact Two:

Separation of Church and State is NOT found in the constitution!

So, simply put, no on has had anything taken from them as a result of Prop 8. Sorry, but Gay Marriage has NEVER existed before.

Not even the Sacared Army of Theebes sought to be married (couple of thousand years ago gang) but now someone suddenly decides they want a NEW thing and to say, "No, we're not changing things just for you." Somehow "takes" rights away?

NOT!

Add;

Congress shall pass no law respecting an establishment of Religion, NOR LIMITING THE FREE EXERCISE THEREOF.

It doesn't say any establishment of religion.
It doesn't say the establishment of religion.

What it does say, in effect, is Congress doesn't get to pick a religion. However, Congress also doesn't get to pick on a religion either.

That is a far cry from a Separation.

Perhaps this separation thing is penciled into your copy of the constitution, but I cannot find it in mine.

The Right to Win
Another example of the intolerance of the tolerant!

how tiresome
Following the prop 8 vote there were large scale almost entirely peaceful protests. This is not surprising since prop 8 is clearly just a kind of battle of the bulge of discrimination on the way to same-sex marriage.

It is amusing the way that conservatives have tried to justify their rather unjustifiable position on the fact that there have been a few people who went to far during those protests. Obviously not on the scale of some blacks in protesting during the civil rights era, or for that matter some anti-abortion protesters.

The idea that this represents anarchy is such idiocy that it is a safe bet the argument is being made to cover the bankruptcy of their position.

Do any of the readers who are outraged by the anarchy of same-sex supporters also think that the anti-abortion cause has been shown to be illegitimate because of vandalism, and even murder by some on the anti-abortion cause?

I thought not.

Clinton didn't "lose" the nomination
... it was stolen.

If Obama had won fair and square, Hillary's supporters would have been disappointed, and then moved on. We were and remain outraged because obama violated party rules and abused the caucus system to engineer bogus wins, and the Dem party not only looked the other way, it rewarded him with superdelegate votes that went against the popular primary vote.

Case in point (one of many): Hillary trounced Obama nearly 3 to 1 in the West Virginia primary vote, yet nearly all of West VA's superdelegates chose to endorse Obama, so that the candidates ended up nearly equal in the overall WVa delegate count. And it was the same story -- or worse -- in many other states.

Obama did NOT run a better campaign than Hillary; he ran a dirty campaign that the party embraced. Hillary DID win the primary vote, but the Dem party refused to honor it.

Is there a glass ceiling? You betcha!

Baseball
10-12 years after I played my last Little League Game, I went to see my little brother play:

1. They hit either of a tee or The Coach pitched to his team. No Strategery or Teamwork.

2, EVERY inning EVERYONE batted. Outs were not tallied, all 9 players bat and results are tallied.

3. On a ball hit to the outfield, once a player caught it, if he fired it straight into the ground the runners had to stop at the next base. Why have outfielders at all? Why not just say when the ball stops rolling, you stop running.

Where is the joy of competition? What about The PRIDE & SELF ESTEEM that comes from rising above others through hard work, sacrifice and team work? WHERE is the lesson that EVERYONE loses on occasion in Life, Sports, Love, Finance, etc? This kind of pacifistic, feel good, effeminate, NONSENSE does INCALCULABLE harm to youngsters at an age when they are BIOLOGICALLY geared to learning lessons that will serve them WELL throughout life IF they are applied!

tolerance
"tolerance" is a word that has been abused and beaten out of shape by the sniveling "interest groups" we know and loathe so well. If I tolerate someone, or some thing, it really means I do not attempt to change or damage, remove or improve the person or thing. Tolerance in this context really means "leaving it alone". The misuse of the word can be clearly seen in the sentence " You must be tolerant." If I must be tolerant I must tolerate intolerance. I must tolerate murder, rape and pillage. In fact, it is impossible to "be tolerant" the word usage is simply insupportable. The shrieking homosexuals prove the point. They do not tolerate, they seek to dominate. Allowing the word "tolerance" to be abused and deformed by people such as these is mere weakness. Accepting the redefinition of words by those who seek power over you is accepting the enemy's terms of battle. This is an error with lasting and evil consequences.

Dr. Sowell's article....
...also accurately describes the beliefs of criminals.

I work in the criminal justice system, and when evaluating a street predator, I know I will soon hear how he (or she) is put-upon, denied his (or her) "rights", abused and unrecognized as a human being, and how the system treats them unfairly. These angrily delivered statements come from people who have used and/or abused others while indulging in every whim their impulses demand.

Those who claim themselves "victim" the most, victimize others the most.

Another great article, Dr. Sowell. You're a national treasure.

Tolerance
Tolerance seems to be a one-way street for those who have shouted about it the loudest. Now it is clear who the HATE crowd is. Their attacks on Christians and churches are hate crimes and need to be prosecuted like any other hate crimes. Their bitter hatred toward any who disagree with them shows who they really are. Railing against God will not give them what they want.

follow your own example
I have been reading a stream of comments on townhall.com about how Obama isn't really president because ACORN stole the election in 27 states, or because he's a Kenyan, or a communist, or the anti-christ. People are buying guns to defend themselves against the Obama dictatorship. One poster even suggested a military coup. (I forget which column, because I'd love to quote it.) Well you know what, OBAMA WON AND WILL BE THE NEXT PRESIDENT!!! Your guy lost! Deal with it!

Social Sickness
Marriage is and always will be the joining of one man and one woman for meaningful purpose.
Homosexuals want heteosexuals to bless their abnormal human behavior with socially accepted sick relationships. I say no way!
If homosexuals want to live together and practice abnormal sex so be it. Just keep it to themselves!

The Right To Win
Dr. Sowell states: "As the election approached, pundits warned that, if Obama lost, there would be riots in the ghetto."

Could this be a reason B.O. got elected? By a minority (probably the "undecided" and "fence-sitters") who were voting for Hussein due to fear of riots? If that was a factor and if that factor was sufficient to win then democracy has taken another blow.

Their disgusting practices aside I’m most concerned about legitimizing deviant behavior that will undermine the sanctity of marriage. Same sex unions should not be allowed to raise children and poison those little darlings with a totally unnatural, unhealthy lifestyle and mindset. You tinker with the basic traditional family unit and all kinds of negative consequences ensue, especially when children are involved. These consequences can take years to manifest themselves and then it is too late to undo the damage. Society already has too many pressures on it that threatens its dissolution. Let’s not add oil to the fire.

If the police cannot or will not protect citizens rights from harassment from these ridiculous deviants then it's time to ratchet things up with a little gleeful “pushback”. They have once again crossed the line of indecency, this time physically. A little terror in their perverted lives will do them good.

No on Prop 8 Cowards
I have noticed that the No on Prop 8 mob are not acting totally out of emotion. They are smart enough not to protest at any AME churches in Compton or Watts, nor have they chosen to protest at any Muslim Mosques, although the majority of Muslims voted for Prop 8.

Care to guess why?

RE: follow your own example (Reply #2)
"Buying guns to defend [oneself] against the Obama dictatorship" is a peaceful, lawful, and prudent way to deal with Obama's victory.

sjpatejak
Of course Obama won. Anyone who suggests a military coup is a kook and should be dismissed out of hand. And ACORN did not win the election for Obama, McCain lost the election because he is a liberal. Having said that we need to get a handle on voter fraud, Minnesota is a prime example.

I would like to ask, are you over 2000 when Bush beat Gore or are you still think the election was 'stolen'?

It's interesting how this marriage
legality is being sought after by homosexuals when heterosexual marriages are falling by the way side. Makes one wonder what the importance of it is to homosexuals, or perhaps it's just one of those childish reactions where one kid is screaming about another kid having something they don't have.

Personally I could care less about homosexuals and what they do. I don't know any, they don't hang with me since I'm not one. I'm certainly not afraid of them. If one came into my personal space with a threat, I'd have to respond the same as I would to a heterosexual who theatened me.

Now an illegal homosexual, that's another story, lmfao.

Where were the police?
LD35 asked in a post above where the police or national guard were during the church invasion. I don't know about that one, but when the rioters were molesting and accosting people in Los Angeles, the police were present. Their over-the-radio communications were clear -- they were in support of the rioters. If the same comments had been made about any group other than the Mormons, the investigations would be extensive, and the firings would have already begun. Such is the modern LAPD.

Bredette
If there was no governmental 'sanction,' approval, licensing, etc. of marriage, would you be able to claim a spouse as a deduction in your tax filing?

Let me explain....
Don't do as I do...do as I say do!!

BTW, from whence do we get our "rights"?

Mormons
One thing that seems to not penetrate the consciousness of many liberals regarding Mormons is that of any modern-day religion in this country the MORMONS have been persecuted the most. Gays try to state that there is a bond of oppression between gays and blacks, but fail to mention that Mormons have been oppressed just as much (if not more) than blacks. Mormons have been beaten, killed, and raped since the beginning. Mormons are the only faith that have had an extermination order placed upon them. What it boils down to is everyone at one time or another has felt oppressed. That doesn't give anyone the right to throw a national tantrum. Prop 8 passed and it's not the blacks fault, the Mormons fault, or the Catholics fault. It was Americans, Californians, that passed the proposition.

Nam65-66 , My compatriot!


Location: NY
Reply # 8
Date: Nov 19, 2008 - 4:41 AM EST Let's not leave out...
...the no physical reaction of Christians (in the case of the church invasion). Since when have Christians been pacifists? I cannot understand why that church invasion in Michigan did not result in broken noses and bloodshed. Were there no men in that congregation? If you were a homosexual activist, wouldn't you think twice before you invaded someone's church to disrupt the services, if it meant you would have to bleed for your opinion? Why did the homosexual activists avoid the Black community? Isn't it obvious?

Diss me,I'll diss you back.

~~~
I too had similar thoughts. My nose might have been one of those broken, had I been there, but I would NOT have sitten idly by!

I noticed that you leave a reasoned comment on some columns but do not return. Should you re-visit this one, please let me say I admire you, and for your service to our Country, I honor you! Yes, you have given a few clues.

You are my Kind of Man!

I would follow you anywhere and support you to the end!

So, are you running for any federal office?

If so, my email is rattusamericansis@yahoo.com

Please contact me anyway, if you feel like it



I am The RAT.

Obama ran a better campaign than Hillary

Not at all. I have nothing against Obama, and I understand why the millions who voted for him because he was black.

I'll bet you a $1,000,000 that more people voted for OBamBam because he is black, than voted against him because he is black.

If OBamBam was exactly the same man with exactly the same thoughts and ideas and the same experiences, but his skin was white = = =

I have hoped for a Black man as President, but not this one.

=====

Did you notice that when people talk about the population as a whole, it is always we are one, we all the same, one country indivisible.

But when they talk about how to win an election, they talk about the Black vote, the Mexican vote, the votes of Jews, and the votes of each and every separate group they can describe.

=========

One of my Gems says

When people say the US is “…one nation, indivisible …” consider the few similarities and the many differences between the Maine lobster trapper and his home and way of life, with the cowboy in Montana, and with the people who live on the mountain-side above Beverly Hills in Southern California!
_______________________________
Not major differences that would make the people incompatible and contentious, but a shade of difference, that adds character and interest to both the people and their land.
_______________________________
The US is “… one nation, indivisible … ”
with many differences!

Read our Constitution?
Have any of these people claiming they have a "right" read our Constitution to find out if they really do have a right? NO! But that makes no difference to them, they have a right! Well, you can take your rights for a long walk on a short pier!

AudiR10 , Kind Lady...


Location: AL
Reply # 11
Date: Nov 19, 2008 - 6:24 AM EST Subject: Old MacDonald Record
When my sister was small, she had a Little Golden Record of Old MacDonald Had a Farm that she loved obsessively. One day, as was common in those days,we had a power outage. Sis started demanding *I wanna hear my Old MacDonald Record.* Mama explained to her that the power was out and the record player would not work without power. Sis listened quietly, and when Mama stopped talking, she repeated, *I wanna hear my Old MacDonald Record.*


~~~
AudiR10,
Everything you write is a treasure! I love it. I am an old style family man. I have seen much of what you talk about, but never tolerated it. Please do not lump us into one foul group.

We are still out there, and WE WILL SURVIVE!

True men exist and we always will!

Kind lady, I hope my words do not offend. I merely wish to convey that there ARE MEN out here, that agree with you.


The Foul Rat.

Douglas got it right
My LDS friends who used to stop by are now off the street because the church sent them home. Too dangerous. Protesting against the out come of a legal election is so alien to me. These people have given up a fundamental citizen responsibility -abide with the majority vote and try again next time. Try to win with reason - not terrorism. These people will earn everything that will come their way.

sjpatejak You be A**, yep you are.
sjpatejak
Location: DC
Reply # 31
Date: Nov 19, 2008 - 10:30 AM EST Subject: follow your own example
I have been reading a stream of comments on townhall.com about how Obama isn't really president because ACORN stole the election in 27 states, or because he's a Kenyan, or a communist, or the anti-christ. People are buying guns to defend themselves against the Obama dictatorship. One poster even suggested a military coup. (I forget which column, because I'd love to quote it.) Well you know what, OBAMA WON AND WILL BE THE NEXT PRESIDENT!!! Your guy lost! Deal with it!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You are a hateful creep.

You are either on Welfare or you are a total idiot. Our once great country is going into the dumpster.

This ,Country nor any other Country cannot survive by stealing from those who have jobs, and giving to parasites who are too lazy to work.

I think I nailed you. I also think you will be amongst the first at the 'Bread Lines'

Yes. You are an A**

Words have meaning
Demanding "Marriage" apply to a homosexual couple is, among other things, to demand the redefinition of a long established word and the destruction of it's true meaning. Words do have meaning. I for one would like one BACK. I want "gay" to mean what it has meant for centuries - happy, exuberant, merry. No more will I EVER refer to homosexuals as "gay" in any context. If someone uses it in that context I will correct them. It's time we all started using the word "homosexual" in all contexts that involve homosexuals. The word has clear meaning. The word "gay" has been removed from normal, decent people's vocabulary and I want it BACK! I intend to take it back - because homosexuals are simply not gay.

Mr. Sowell's BIG MISTAKE
Nobody is in favor of anarchy. Oh Mr. Sowell YES THEY ARE!

Each step in the dismemberment of US society leads to a preconcluded outcome. Total anarchy: churches demonized, gay marriage equated with traditional marriage, subprime loan massive financial disruptions, enforced international trade disadvantages, rise and mainstreaming of the Ayers & Co. (you are a fool, therefore you owe us your treasure) - oh yes there are some people who certainly are in favor of anarchy in order to advance their agenda.

As soon as the glue is pulled out of this society and Uncle Sam is taunted as a brave soldier with empty pockets you damn well will believe that somebody is in favor of anarchy.

Anarchy is a tool for other agendas, as we are finding out. Clintons, Schumer, Obama, all got/get dirty money from internationals and/or Wall St. scum.

After this Punch and Judy election, it is all kissy and make up between Obama and the Clintons. They're seeing which one pulls out the rug or when to disappear when the whole economy collapses and let the other take the fall.

But I wouldn't say that nobody wants anarchy. Listen to sweet-talking William Ayers. "Yes We Can"!!!

The Right to Win
Hurrah for Thomas Sowell. Thank you sir! You always write a good article. I did not vote for Obama but now that he is president, I stand behind him 100%, that is unless he starts going against the constitution. BUT I will not ly in the street kicking and screaming, like the Gay Rights are doing. We all voted...and that is that! There is already a partnership law, what's the big deal? And some of you that have written in should be ashamed of yourselves with all the name calling!!!
BeeWell

Right to Win
The absolute "RIGHT TO WIN" is the first step towards anarchy and then it is very closely followed by DICTATORSHIP as practised by Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Castro et al.

In a Republic such as ours there will be winners and there will be losers. One great mark of USA is that after an election or a referandum we all come together and progress forward.

Those LOSERS who feel that their "RIGHT TO WIN" had been violated are anarchists.

It is Constitutional
Given the 9th and 10th Amendments, States can do most whatever they want. The US Constitution is mainly targeted at the Federal level, not the State level. Personally, I'm not giddy to have my State government deal with the idea of marriage one way or the other. It's clear the Federal level has no authority to have any say on the marraige issue at all, such as demand lisences issued in one state (for anything) be accepted in any other. If Cali wants to ban it, go for it, I don't agree myself as I don't see it as a legitimate voter initiative, but cest la vie. Gays can move from Cali to another state more welcoming to obtain their economic benefit.

Screwtape
I won't be over the 2000 election until Jan. 20:)

Ratas y Ratones: Palos y piedros. I hope Obama bails out your employer and lets you keep you job.

Ratasy
From what I remember about the invasion of the church in Michigan, it was all females doing the disrupting. The Christian men were too much the gentlemen and did not want to attack the females. Unfortunately the good guys (us) are sooner or later have to attack and physically harm some folks. ESPECIALLY if any of them pull a fool stunt like that again in any church. Remember they started it in my mind when that A-hole knocked the little old lady's cross out of her hand. That "man" should be whipped.

Radical Moslims Beat Women with Switches
Hillary Rodham Clinton should be thrilled that she didn't get elected at a time when Al-Zawahri is extremely angry at Obama because he believes that Obama turned against the Islamic radical leaders after election, although, the same radical leaders and followers were on video cheering for their man before election - At least, Obama won't be beaten with a switch, but a female President would have to bump up security to keep those radicals from using their form of punishment - they beat their women with a switch for disagreeing with them - Heck, we don't even have the right to spank kids in our country when they do some thing wrong because the far left wants to throw us in jail for discipling them, but the far left liberals know what's best for everyone.

No loosers???
I picture John Elway passing to Rod Smith; the Federal Government intercepts, takes control of the ball and mandates, “We now own all footballs, football games and players. Hereon all games will be played knowing both teams will always win. Never again will there be a loosing team.”

To Justin and others that a misinformed
In california gay have a right to "join together" in a civil ceremony that gives them the 100% same financial rights as marriage.
That way, they don't infringe on my right to worship in a church. You see, the bible doesn't condone same sex marriage and to require a pastor to marry same sex partners would be against the "word" therefore, any pastor giving in to that would be against the bible and would null Christianity. Gays have their right, it is just called something different. They need to "get over it" a rose by any other name is still a rose.

Difference?
Whats the difference between the protesters to a democratically voted result and the pirates from Somalia who are hijacking ships in the Gulf of Aden? In my humble opinion --NONE.

The Extremists are too Fascist for me
These actions by the fringe elements (much more evident on the left) worry me more than anything else. It is PURE fascism. I am tired of poeple who think their opinion is the only one that matters. Worse, are these leftists who preach tolerance but show none - they do not even denounce those who engage in this behavior. It is Fascism pure and simple and if we the people don't do something about it (non-violently, of course) it will be moving into our towns as well. This country was founded upon debate and free expression of ideas, let's get back to that. Neither side has a monopoly on "right" and "wrong". Honor the Democratic process and accept the defeat - I don't see riots in the streets from Conservatives or Republicans over Obama's victory.

Bhelmet
The people of California and Florida and another state I cannot remember, DID DO SOMETHING. They voted it down. But the gay gestapo wont accept anything but what THEY want. Regardless of a vote. What if republicans refused to accept the presidential vote and decided to protest and destroy things and peoples businesses because the vote did not go their way. There so many issues that have polarized this country, I fear we are in for some sort of violent spasam. Thats why I have stocked up on ammo.

Reply to Kerijay - how Obama got elected
This video reveals a real problem for Republican politicians whom the many factions of the media have successfully branded as totally corrupt, smear mongers or just plain dumb.

MSM headlines scream negatives on corrupt Republicans and barely mention corrupt Democrats; people don't look for more information and as a result, many still think the Congress is controlled by Republicans and keep voting in more and more Democrats.

The Daily Show, SNL and most comedians follow suit, the misinformation is perpetuated into talking points and it's impossible to argue against them.

The feeling of these people is: if something is on Fox or talk radio, it must be a lie or smear as it is not seen it on CNN, NYT, MSNBC, NBC, LA Times, etc. My liberal friends simply do not believe anything unless they also see it on at least one of the MSM outlets.

If you say something bad about a Republican, it's okay, no questions asked. If you say something bad about a Democrat, then it must be a lie or smear by those nasty Republicans. This was obvious with the leftist media excoriating Palin on all fronts while being intolerant of anything negative against Obama or Biden.

How can we overcome this very serious problem?

Uncle B
Doing it through the vote is the way it SHOULD be. These morons have no respect for the Democratic process unless it goes their way. I hope it doesn't come down to having ammo, but we still have the right to protect ourselves. That is one of the best differences between Conservatives and Liberals - we Conservatives respect the Democratic process and take our defeats and learn from them. We will make our message stronger and improve upon it without the use of violence, destruction, or shout downs. Where is Obama, the great unifier, on all of this nonsense?

Please call your Congress members

Following the Constitution is part of winning fairly. It makes sense to ask for proof of Obama’s birth certificate. Have you read Obama’s two books? Have you read the reasoning offerred by respected columnist Janet Porter?

“The Constitution Still Matters”
Article 1: http://wnd.com/index.php?pageId=80710

“1 last chance to fight for our Constitution”
Article 2: http://wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=81307

Congress needs to defend the Constitution. If the president-elect has nothing to hide, he should produce his original birth certificate just as we citizens produce ours for driver’s licenses, passports and Social Security cards.

Joseph Farah thinks Obama is setting a bad example for America.
http://wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=81347

re: Jaydee
quote: "You cannot take from someone, something they have never possessed!"

You can very easily infringe upon a person's liberties, even if he were never allowed, by government or mob force, to exercise them. Using your statement on its face, you'd be telling slaves that since they were never free, they are not having anything "take[n] from" them. Not so.

quote: "Separation of Church and State is NOT found in the constitution!"

Actually, while the specific words are not, the concept IS. And, when you read the writings of James Madison and Thomas Jefferson, you realize that they were pretty adamant that there SHOULD be a separation. And, when you think about the purpose of government to protect individual liberty for ALL its citizens, there's an inherent equality among religions (or lack thereof) that's implicit.

quote: "So, simply put, no on has had anything taken from them as a result of Prop 8. Sorry, but Gay Marriage has NEVER existed before."

Technically, even using your own flawed argument, since gay marriage was allowed prior to Prop 8's passage, they did in fact have the right to government-recognized marriage contracts taken from them. But whether or not something has never been allowed before makes it neither good nor bad.

quote: "Congress shall pass no law respecting an establishment of Religion, NOR LIMITING THE FREE EXERCISE THEREOF.

What it does say, in effect, is Congress doesn't get to pick a religion. However, Congress also doesn't get to pick on a religion either."

I agree with a statement: the government should neither "pick on a religion": the rights of EVERY individual are to be protected by the government. But allowing government recognition of same-sex marriage contracts violates no rights of yours. You do NOT have the right not to have your religious sensibilities offended.

Susan
The MSM's credibility took a huge hit in this election cycle. Look at their ratings and circulation numbers. They are all down and facng serious financial repurcussions (ticks me off that GE got a bailout - they own NBC and MSNBC, in case you didn't know). We had a candidate with no message and no direction. He is barely a Republican, never mind a Conservative. With the numbers Bush has, it is a shock this race was even competitive (popular vote-wise). We need to form our own voices and get the word out in our small circles. If we do it in numbers, those small circles get awfully big. It is up to US.

re: Moonbat
quote: "What Dr Sowell is addressing is the confusion, mostly on the part of the left between rights and privileges. A privilege is an unconditioned license to do something, whereas a right is linkeed to a concommitant responsibility. For example, the freedom of speech is limited by the responsibility to speak truthfully. Slander and libel are still criminal offenses. The idea that participation in the political process, which by definition is a binary choice, is a garauntee of success is irrational."

Actually, you have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness so long as your liberties don't infringe upon those of another. You also have the right to your own property (which was considered for inclusion in the DoC but dropped from the final wording). Yes, slander and libel are criminal: they intrude upon the liberty and property of another; however, lying to your date about how much money you made or to your buddies about how good you were at basketball in high school do not infringe liberty and are not the business of the government.

And sorry, but the infringement of liberty has no monopoly on the left.

re: Walter
quote: ""tolerance" is a word that has been abused and beaten out of shape by the sniveling "interest groups" we know and loathe so well. If I tolerate someone, or some thing, it really means I do not attempt to change or damage, remove or improve the person or thing. Tolerance in this context really means "leaving it alone". The misuse of the word can be clearly seen in the sentence " You must be tolerant." If I must be tolerant I must tolerate intolerance. I must tolerate murder, rape and pillage. In fact, it is impossible to "be tolerant" the word usage is simply insupportable. The shrieking homosexuals prove the point. They do not tolerate, they seek to dominate. Allowing the word "tolerance" to be abused and deformed by people such as these is mere weakness. Accepting the redefinition of words by those who seek power over you is accepting the enemy's terms of battle. This is an error with lasting and evil consequences. "

I would submit that you must "tolerate" anything that does not infringe upon your liberties or the liberties of others. And because some gays are obviously deranged and out of hand (and intruding on the liberties of others) means nothing about all gay people, anymore than I, as a straight man, should have to answer for ingrates that beat up gay people (which I would also consider an infringement of liberty).

"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice." -- Barry Goldwater

Charlie:
Re: Machiavellian Misnomers

I think we should call them what they are, too. Only it should be "sodomites", and what they want is "sodomite marriage". "Homosexual" does not convey to the public at large what they are talking about. Once the polite veneer is stripped away, their argument collapses.

re: sedonaman
Why are you choosing to qualify them only by the type of sex they engage in? Also, do you consider all oral sex to be sodomy, as some laws in the US have over the years? If so, many heterosexual couples (or should I say "Vaginal Intercourse couples) have engaged in sodomy; actually, heterosexual couples can engage in anal sex as well. Should we label them that way also? And what about lesbians, if you don't consider oral sex to be sodomy?

One other consideration: one could be gay and also be celibate in a relationship, just as a heterosexual couple can be. What do you term them?

Seems to me, since "gay" is a common word used as a synonym for "homosexual", and the definition of "homosexual" is pretty clear (as is "heterosexual" or "straight", that there's no need to get sexually graphic in the description of anyone.

When Rights End???
Sowell's opinion talks about a "right to win" because people are protesting the passage of proposition 8 in California...huh? It is obvious that Sowell is appealing to unthinking, self-rightous dittoheads at best...Sowell forgets that the Constitution guarantees both the rights of assembly and free speech. Opponents protesting prop 8 passage are excercising THESE Rights. There is no condition in the Constitution that negates free speech/assembly because of a majority vote. Any argument that opponents should "just shut up and accept it" mocks the Constitution that all of you claim so strongly to uphold.

T. Sowell -Will we not Reap what we Sow?


Thomas Sowell writes: "Among the many new "rights" being conjured out of thin air, a new one seems to be a "right" to win."

This is an entirely predictable result of the emphasis on "personal affirmation" and “feelings”, and the minimization of "winning and losing", beginning now in Kindergarten. Will we not reap what we sow?


~~~


Thomas Sowell writes: "Now there seems to be a sense that your rights have been trampled on if you don't win."

This is an entirely predictable result of the politics of victimization. Those who practice it trade short-term and/or instant personal gratification for long-term societal stability. It could not be more self-centered, or short-sighted.


~~~


Thomas Sowell writes: "Hillary Clinton's supporters were not merely disappointed, but outraged, when she lost the Democrats' nomination to Barack Obama.”

Much of that so-called “outrage” is manufactured and then “hyped” by a compliant (complicit) news media. This kind of propaganda does have the (apparently desired) effect of causing genuine “outrage” among the unstable and the unhinged, who dutifully demonstrate their instability, playing the part of “useful idiots”.


Arjay
Protesting and dissent are fine and necessary. Disrupting commerce and bullying people are not. If you cannot see the difference then you are severely ignorant. They have every right to protest, but their methods are not protected. The will of the people was represented in the vote. That is ALL that matters.

T. Sowell - Much longer than *centuries*


Thomas Sowell writes: "The more obvious explanation of the nomination outcome was that Obama ran a better campaign than Hillary.”

It may be more “obvious”, but that doesn’t necessarily make it true. Hillary probably ran a better campaign, but Obama never even faced a serious challenge during his waltz into the presidency. The closest he ever came to answering straight questions from a non-fawning, non-apologetic interviewer was from Bill O’Reilly. The toughest questions from the rest of the news media amounted to little more than “can I have your autograph after you’re elected?”

The (no longer plausibly deniable) Leftist bias of the news media has succeeded in undermining “free and fair elections”, which destroys the confidence honest people have that their vote actually counts. Charades like what’s going on in the Franken-Coleman farce in Minnesota reinforces this sense of widespread vote-fraud. Leftists are more than content to destroy the public’s confidence in fair elections for their own short-term gain, because to a committed leftist, there is no higher authority than his or her own personal desire, and the ends always justifies the means, whatever the means must be.


~~~



Thomas Sowell writes: "The worst of all the reactions from people who act as if they have a right to win have come from gay activists in the wake of voter rejection of so-called "gay marriage," which is to say, redefining what marriage has meant for centuries.”

Much longer than mere *centuries*… it goes all the way back, to the beginning:

“Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.” (Genesis 2:24)


T. Sowell - Courage they do not have...


Thomas Sowell writes: "Seventy percent of blacks voted against gay marriage in California, so racial epithets were hurled at blacks in Los Angeles-- not in black neighborhoods, by the way.”

Of course not. They are like pack animals, and when the numbers are not on their side, what passes for “courage” among their ranks is in very short supply. Law-abiding citizens would do well to remember this, that for all of their bluster, for the most part they are just insecure people, acting out. Like most bullies, they will back down and run when confronted with any genuine opposition. At the local level, that will require community will.


~~~


Thomas Sowell writes: "Even blacks who were carrying signs in favor of gay marriage were denounced with racial epithets.”

Indiscriminate hostility, without cause or reason. Pure emotional furor over the seemingly insatiable desire of a tiny minority to flaunt their sin.


~~~


Thomas Sowell writes: "In Michigan, an evangelical church service was invaded and disrupted by gay activists, who also set off a fire alarm, because evangelicals had dared to exercise their right to express their opinions at the polls.”

Naturally. It requires no courage to attack a Christian, or someone who is perceived as a Christian. Let them try that stunt at a “black liberation theology” church, or at a radical Islamic mosque.

That would take courage.

Courage they don’t have.


~~~


Thomas Sowell writes: "In Oakland, California, a mob gathered outside a Mormon temple in such numbers that officials shut down a nearby freeway exit for more than three hours.”

Of course. It requires no courage to attack a Mormon, or someone who is perceived as a Mormon. Again, let them try that stunt at a “black liberation theology” church, or a Farrakhan rally, or at a radical Islamic mosque.

That would take courage.

Courage they do not have.


T. Sowell - It cannot be any other way.


Thomas Sowell writes: "While demanding tolerance from others, gay activists apparently feel no need to show any themselves.”

Radical homosexual activists are not shy about indulging in undeniable, specific and personal hypocrisy.


~~~


Thomas Sowell writes: "What they want is not decisive, however. It is what other people are willing to tolerate that determines how far any group can go.”

That is exactly right. All that is required is for good people to stand up and say “No”. Generally speaking, a de facto conspiracy of silence is necessary for evil to succeed. If even a small percentage of decent, law-abiding citizens in this country decided to put their foot down and say “no more”, many things would change for the better, and quickly.

Until that time, the incorrigible and the recalcitrant will continue making incremental gains and pushing the envelope.

“No” is a powerful word.

Just say “no”.


~~~


Thomas Sowell writes: "When the majority of the people become like sheep, who will tolerate intolerance rather than make a fuss, then there is no limit to how far any group will go.”

But remember, the majority of the so-called “activists” are nothing more than sheep as well, who will turn tail and run at the first sign of a sheep-dog. They have wandered away from the flock because it has been too long since anyone has told them “no”.

It is hardly different than a toddler testing his boundaries. If we don’t set any, if we give in to his every demand and desire, we will create a monster.

This is exactly what our country has done. And we will reap what we have sown. It cannot be any other way.

But we can take back our country and begin sowing a new crop today. It begins with saying “No” to the immoral, to the violent and to the lawless.

re: sedonaman, one more thng
Just because you or someone else finds a particular act distasteful or even immoral does not give you a right to impede on an individual's liberty to partake in it. You have NO right not to be offended.

You do have the right to your own opinion, and to free speech, a right with which you might try to persuade those with whom you disagree. You have the right to assembly, with which you might choose to gather together with others who feel as you do and multiply your voice.

arjay
"Sowell forgets that the Constitution guarantees both the rights of assembly and free speech. Opponents protesting prop 8 passage are excercising THESE Rights."

According to news reports, opponents of Prop 8 are also committing violence against those who supported it. Like a typical liberal, you seem to think the only people who have rights are the ones who agree with you.

re: Bhelmet
quote: "Protesting and dissent are fine and necessary. Disrupting commerce and bullying people are not. If you cannot see the difference then you are severely ignorant. They have every right to protest, but their methods are not protected."

I don't see where Arjay was saying that "disrupting commerce and bullying" were acceptable; I read his post as standing up for the right to protest a decision you see as wrong.

quote: "The will of the people was represented in the vote. That is ALL that matters."

Would you have said that if the vote had gone the other way? Or what if the "will of the people" was to allow polygamy? Or some law that infringes on YOUR liberty?

The purpose of the government is to protect liberty. I don't care if the vote is unanimous: if liberty is being infringed, then the law is unjust.

Semper
I respect and abide by the Democratic process. The people spoke and their will should be honored - no matter which way the vote goes. No liberties are being infringed upon. Nothing stops them from being together or getting the same advantages that heterosexual couples get. Please tell what liberty is being infringed upon. They are allowed to be gay, have sex, and form a union if they wish. Gay right issues are to be decided by the States and this one was so it MUST be honored.

I defended Arjay's stance on protesting saying it was right and necessary, but their methods are not. I never said they had no right to protest and I could care less if they do - I do oppose the methods.

Ken
I never advocated violence of any sort...that is illegal and wrong. However, Sowell and your compatriots on this site...are not merely referring to violence..they are talking about the protests in general. BTW...if you accept the notion that gays lost on prop 8 and should just get over it..why don't you tell the pro-lifers to just get over it. They lost over 25 years ago with roe v wade and they still don't shut up (including bombing abortion clinics and shooting doctors) if you want to talk violence, look at your own first

EVEN THOUGH
I believe the majority of Americans are 'intolerant' of criminal and radical behavior and violence, who suffers the 'consequences'? The Boarder Guards, who are now in prison? Police, who shoot criminals, then are suspended until investigated, with the high probability they will be charged with something themselves and face possible conviction? Our Military, fighting a war against terrorists, forced to hesitate defending themselves, risking being killed, because just maybe who they see as an enemy may not be, and they could be charged and convicted for shooting an innocent?
It's NOT that we AREN'T INTOLERANT. It's those whose 'job' it is to enforce our 'laws' have NO backup. They are between a rock and a hard place, their hands are 'tied', for 'Justice' in our Country today does not necessarily prevail.
It amazes me that anyone in our Country enters into 'law' enforcement or the Military. Why would anyone put their life on the line, only to turn around and be 'shot' by the system instead of, or as well as 'shot' by a criminal or enemy.

Constitutional "scholars" here
For those that think homosexuals have no equal protection under the Constitution, I refer you to "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Now, if you'd like to say that homosexuals are not people, or citizens of the US, I invite you to do so. But, since I'm pretty sure they are, then I would invite you, and Mr Sowell, to investigate the Supreme Court decision "Loving v Virginia".

If Mr Sowell would like to replace the word "gay" with the word "black" in his essay, he might see how far off base he truly is.

arjay
"why don't you tell the pro-lifers to just get over it. They lost over 25 years ago with roe v wade and they still don't shut up"

You're only proving my point. As Ronald Reagan said, "Liberals will defend to the death your right to agree with them." You talk a good game on the subject of "tolerance", but you're terribly intolerant of those who disagree with you.

Arjay
The bombings are wrong and they should never happen. I haven't heard of one since the '80's, but nonetheless it is very wrong. Way to justify your stance by pointing to other wrongs. If it is wrong for one side it is wrong for the others. The only violence I see today is on the left. They are the extreme, just like the abortion clinic bombings, but I hear no one on the left denouncing them. Both sides have made mistakes, but it only seems like one side has learned from them.

Jeff
"For those that think homosexuals have no equal protection under the Constitution, I refer you to "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.""

Would you please cite the section of the Constitution where those words are found?

Evidently you don't know the difference between the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence. Take a history class.

re: Bhelmet
I certainly don't agree with the methods that SOME protesters have used; I also don't agree with the methods that SOME protesters of, say, abortion have used. But some (didn't say you specifically) have used the out-of-control methods of a few as justification for the vote itself, and as a demerit on the entire gay community.

As to the vote itself, I'm neither gay nor live in CA, so I'm speaking only as the issue pertains to liberty. One statement you make is incorrect: gay couples do NOT "get[] the same advantages that heterosexual couples get": government recognition of the marriage contract confers certain benefits with regards to insurance, property, estates, visitation, etc.

Ask yourself this: say the "will of the people" passed a "Prop 8" that said only GAY marriages would be recognized by the state? Would you feel your liberties infringed upon?

Rights?
Rights are based on the law, but where do Laws come from? If as many Homosexuals avow there is no GOD, then what is the basis of law? If man is the source of law than as man changes the concept of laws and inherent rights are subject to change.

There lies the problem, if you believe that law is a product of the divine and immutable nature of GOD, then rights are what is ordained. Under these conditions there are rights and prohibitions and they are not the same. However if you believe that man is god and is the giver of rights, anything can be considered a right if enough people demand that "right".
As an example consider the following:

I have a right to be lazy!
GOD: then you will starve!
Liberal: Then I will tax others to feed you

I have a right to be ignorant
God: Then you will suffer a fools existence!
Liberal: Then I will ensure that you are not the only one, and dumb down schools.

I am gay and want what the others have!
God: Homosexuality is a sin like all other sins and must be resisted and overcome.
Liberal:Gay is OK, you are entitled to the same "rights" as others if you vote for me!

There can be no reasoning with a rabid mob of people that believe that the problem is not theirs but of our making, and demand us to change to accept perversity.

Bhelmet et al
First, I never said that people shouldn't protest roe v wade...if they feel abortion is wrong, they should and in fact must protest it.
I was merely stating the comparison of your arguments that "gays lost and should just shut up" to the roe v wade protests...so lets agree then that violence is wrong and peaceful protests against the passing of Prop 8 are just,acceptable, democratic and constitutional.....easy huh?

Semper Libertas
Well, I have to give Semper a lot of credit for putting up some pretty good posts in the never ending debate... here's my deal as a married guy living in an intensely gay area of San Diego:

1) The vast majority of people are supportive of gays living in peace, and with equivalent legal protections and rights. This is not a problem.

2) Gays apparently do not 'get' that because they are having a hissy fit over the massive re-definition of an ages-old GLOBAL institution, and are able to get away with it in an incredibly tolerant Western civilization, that this strikes the majority as behavior that is ridiculous and out-of-bounds. I don't care if gays get equal rights, that's fine, just call it something else, and stop whining.

3) My experience with Gays & Lesbians is simple. Most are head cases, narcissistic in the extreme, and tend to be obsessed with exactly 1 issue ... guess which one. Gays have done nothing but hurt themselves with outlandish, garish, ridiculous hedonistic public behaviour, and terrifically horrible assaults on others. This will result in nothing but a giant backlash. My Dad has known Gays since the 50's and thinks the current crowd is simply stupid... he contends they're actually ruining a good thing for themselves. I agree, you want divorce court, alimony, lifetime commitments to your idiot partner ... fine by me. JUST DO NOT CALL IT MARRIAGE ... and NO YOU DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO RE-DEFINE OUR LANGUAGE or this institution. You THINK you have this right as you've been brain-washed by 40 years of garbage liberalism, which by the way promotes the mass murder of the innocent and wrings its hands over the 'offing' of serial killers, and the discomfort of terrorists. Get your damn priorities straight, stop your foot stomping, and quit throwing a hissy-fit over your 'pet' issue.




re: Handrock
You're confusing the purpose of government, making it not just a defender of liberty but also a moral code.

The government can't force a person not to be lazy or not to be ignorant, nor should it. I think we might even agree as to the reaction government should have to those who choose one of those paths -- I'm not a big fan of having money confiscated from my paycheck to give to someone else who refuses to work to support himself.

But the government isn't around to prohibit "sin" either -- only to protect liberty. Some sins intrude on another's life or liberty and therefore the government has a role: murder, theft, physical violence come to mind. But other sins do not intrude on the liberty of another and therefore the government has no role: pride, sexual immorality, envy, and lust are examples.

If you want to believe that homosexuality is a "sin .. and must be resisted", that's your right. It is not your right, however, to use the force of the government to impose that belief on others.

LOSING IS THE OTHER SIDE
IN EVERY COMPETITIVE EVENT THERE IS A WINNER AND A LOSER. BEING A SORE LOSER IS NOTHING NEW.
YET WHAT IS NEW THE ARROGANCE OF THE LOSERS OF TODAY WITH DEMANDS, THREATS, AND ATTACKS UPON THE VICTORS. ESPECIALLY IN THE SPECIAL INTEREST GROUPS ASSOCIATED WITH THE LIBERAL DEMOCRAT MOVEMENTS.

Arjay - Grossly inappropriate analogy


Arjay writes: “BTW...if you accept the notion that gays lost on prop 8 and should just get over it..why don't you tell the pro-lifers to just get over it. They lost over 25 years ago with roe v wade and they still don't shut up”

Roe v. Wade was decided by a few judges, and the chief Justice among them admitting it was bad law:

“Internal Supreme Court memoranda surfaced in the Library of Congress in 1988, among the personal papers of Douglas and other Justices, showing the private discussions of the Justices on the case. Blackmun said of the majority decision he authored, "You will observe that I have concluded that the end of the first trimester is critical. This is arbitrary, but perhaps any other selected point, such as quickening or viability, is equally arbitrary."

“The assertion that the Supreme Court was making a legislative decision is often repeated by opponents of the Court's decision. The "viability" criterion, which Blackmun acknowledged was arbitrary, is still in effect, although the point of viability has changed as medical science has found ways to help premature babies survive." (http://tinyurl.com/6exlbn)


Harvard law professor Laurence Tribe (who opposes ANY limits on abortion): “One of the most curious things about Roe is that, behind its own verbal smokescreen, the substantive judgment on which it rests is nowhere to be found.“ Tribe is “recognized as one of the foremost liberal constitutional law experts …has argued before the U.S. Supreme Court 36 times.” (ibid)


The proper analogy here is that once again, a few judges overturned the will of the people, this time over the issue of gay marriage decided by the people in California. Except *this time* the people said “No”, and overturned the will of a minority of judges who were illegally attempting to legislate from the bench.

Arjay - That is not an honest comparison


Arjay writes: “(including bombing abortion clinics and shooting doctors) if you want to talk violence, look at your own first”


They are certainly not “my own”, and I reject any such acts of violence, no matter how well-intended the perpetrators may have convinced themselves to be. There are better, lawful ways of dismantling the abortion infrastructure in our nation without endangering the lives of those with whom we disagree.

Unless you are willing to be lumped together with the fanatics on your side, it is hypocritical to group everyone you oppose together with abortion clinic bombers. Either way, it is intellectually dishonest, and I think you know it.


re: Scott
So are you saying that there would be no protest if "the will of the people" resulted in a Constitutional Amendment decreeing abortion to be legal?

Semper Libertas - Why speculate?


Semper Libertas writes: "So are you saying that there would be no protest if "the will of the people" resulted in a Constitutional Amendment decreeing abortion to be legal?"


Why speculate about what might or might not happen, when we have a real-life contemporary example, relevant and in context, from which to examine?

“On the March 7, 2000 primary election, Proposition 22 was adopted by a vote of 61.4% to 38%, thus adding § 308.5 to the Family Code, largely replicating the 1977 enactment. The one-sentence code section explicitly defines the union of a man and a woman as the only valid or recognizable form of marriage in the State of California.” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_gay_marriage)


“On May 15, 2008, the Supreme Court of California overturned the state's ban on same-sex marriage in In re Marriage Cases. The four-to-three decision took effect on June 16, 2008.” (ibid)


When the Supreme Court of California saw fit to disgrace itself and overturn the expressed will of the people, were there mass protests nationwide?

Were Christians invading pagan temples and other dens of iniquity to express their displeasure and generally being disruptive to private and public gatherings? Were Christian “mobs” beating up little old ladies who supported the oligarchy of California justices?


Or is that behavior peculiar to the self-described “tolerant” Left?


Sowell in league of his own
I have read Thomas Sowell for years and I have never read a bad article from him, they have all been very good, very logical, and right on the money.

Sowell is one of the most knowledgeable individuals I have ever come across. People and this nation would be much better off by listening to Thomas Sowell rather than a nutcase like Obama.

Scott
I am glad you picked up on MY intellectual dishonesty by talking about clinic bombings (I could not have been more blatantly dishonest if I came right out and admittedit)however, I find it totally ironic that you call me on my dishonesty and do not even question the other posters on your side including Dr Sowell himself, who hi-lite a few isolated incidents and condemn all those opposed to prop 8...I guess for you intellectual honesty is based on which side of the argumnet you support.

Responder:
I am glad you have such a High opinion of yourself and your beliefs (Pride is one of the Deadly Sins)...As a liberal, I can tell you that my beliefs are rooted in a very strong principal...That all individuals are created equal and endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights among these life, liberty and the pursuit of property(happiness). You may have heard of this principal, afterall it is from the Declaration of Independence. This coupled with the Golden Rule of do unto others... makes for a pretty strong foundation to live ones life in peace and harmony with fellow human beings. Laws are to limit freedom to restrict individuals from doing real, recognizable harm to others such that it impedes on their inalienable rights - not to force your beliefs(or mine for that matter) into someone else's exercise of their rights. Prove to me that gay marriage will directly harm you or your marriage or society as a whole (not just undermine your religious/societal beliefs)and I will recognize the state's interest in promoting heterosexual marriage...otherwise, the state has no right in denying any individual the right to pursue their liberty and happiness.

Arjay: Responder...NY.
"not just undermining your religious/societal beliefs"...that's enough with the added vote of a majority of people from liberal Calif...you lost!!..plus it's "principle" not principal...I know I'm being tacky but just in case you want to use it in the future!!

a democarcy
To:Arjay

You are holding up the Declaration of Independence and a seminal tenet of Chrisianity, the Golden Rule, neither of which has anything to do with voting in a democracy.
With a democratic vote, there is a winner and a loser and the gay movement with its viewpoint lost. Now many gay people are behaving like tyrants, unable to accept or repectfully tolerate that others see the issue differently.

Arjay - spirit of honesty and good faith


Arjay writes: “I am glad you picked up on MY intellectual dishonesty by talking about clinic bombings (I could not have been more blatantly dishonest if I came right out and admitted it)”


I did, you were, and now you have. Admitting past errors is commendable, insofar as one is committed to repenting of them. If this is the case, then I appreciate your admission, and I hope that you will succeed in turning away from such impulses going forward.


~~~


Arjay writes: “however, I find it totally ironic that you call me on my dishonesty and do not even question the other posters on your side including Dr Sowell himself, who hi-lite a few isolated incidents and condemn all those opposed to prop 8...”

This is similar to a ‘bait-and-switch’. It is not possible for me (or anyone else) to hold every poster on either side of the debate accountable for his or her words. While this is a public forum, each “conversation” necessarily takes place between individuals, and it is generally within that limited scope that these discussions unfold.

I did in fact address many of Mr. Sowell’s comments directly (see posts 72, 74, 75 & 76). I have also addressed some of your comments directly (posts 93, 94 & 100), and some of Semper Libertas’ comments directly (post 96).

To the best of my ability, I am upholding my end of the “debate” in good faith, addressing the comments you present. There is nothing at all “totally ironic” about your implication that I should “question [all] the other posters on your side including Dr Sowell himself”, or that I have any obligation to do so. That is an impossible standard to meet, a tactic which is often employed by those on the Left, precisely because it is a standard which cannot be met.

And that is disingenuous. That is not engaging the debate in a spirit of honesty and good faith.

And again, I think you know it… or you should.


Arjay - No moral relativism…


Arjay writes: “I guess for you intellectual honesty is based on which side of the argumnet you support.”

Not at all. I frequently disagree with people on what you might call “my side” of the argument, but it is not reasonable to expect that I (or anyone else) must (or even could) analyze and respond to every post made in this Thread in order to validate my responses to you and to the others mentioned above.

What you are doing is essentially making an accusation of moral relativism, that my “honesty” is “relative to” or “contingent upon” which “side of the argument” I support, but that is a belief system to which I do not subscribe.

Honesty is based on truth, and truth is ultimately based on the Word of God as He has revealed it to us. His Word has been collected together in a book we commonly refer to as the Bible. The Word of God does not change, regardless of “which side of the argument” we support.

We would do well to consider what God has said on any given subject, and then choose to be on *His side*.


Arjay & Responder
The statement below is the crux of the whole problem, and supports Responders prior post re: how Conservatives and Liberals think (which was spot on in my opinion ... based on my 51 years of observation ... a.k.a. real life).

As for the statement 'not just undermine your religious/societal beliefs' ... wow Arjay, yeah, the entire GLOBES religious and societal beliefs just PALE in comparison to your desires. Also, the old argument 'howz it going to hurt you...' is THE single most over-used red herring of an argument during decades of liberal relativism that has proven beyond doubt that un-intended consequences DO happen, that each change brings demands for even more absurd change until absurdity becomes 'normal.' Maybe YOU won't be the one to call for the next absurdity, but it WILL happen. Molesters and NAMBLA will be up to bat next, and don't think it won't happen ... it's all 'relative' to a liberal ... remember.

BTW Arjay ... the state doesn't have an 'interest' in 'promoting' heterosexual marriage, THAT'S WHAT MARRIAGE IS, fool. It IS heterosexual ... apparently, you didn't get the memo and don't realize the only 'promoting' going on is coming from the Gay/Lesbian camp for a change in the fundamental implication of an event that has been going on for several millenia.

You can have all the rights. Call it something else. Got it yet?

From Arjay:
'Prove to me that gay marriage will directly harm you or your marriage or society as a whole (not just undermine your religious/societal beliefs)and I will recognize the state's interest in promoting heterosexual marriage'

re: Scott
Ok, you're right. There are no recorded instances of violence or intolerance outside abortion clinics, against anti-war protesters, or against gays. None, zero, zip, nada, nil.

More importantly, note that your analogy is not correct. Agree or not with the CA Supreme Court, its decision did NOT limit the right of straight couples to marry, nor did it limit anyone's liberties or civil rights. Prop 8 DID restrict the liberties of same-sex couples to have their marriage contracts recognized by the government. Thus your example is not analogous with the "will of the people" resulting in the end of government recognition of "traditional" marriage.

Apples and oranges, Scott.

re: Responder
You certainly have a caricature-ish vision of what "liberals" and "conservatives" are. Have you ever actually met anyone you would call a "liberal", like in "real life"? I'm a bit curious, because I know plenty of people who are what most people (including themselves) would call "liberal", and yet they don't display any of the traits you describe. They do tend to disagree with my free market capitalist beliefs a lot of the time, but then again so do my "conservative" friends.

I've met plenty of liberal sweethearts and conservative jerks, as well as vice-versa. Neither side has a monopoly on character. Reducing everyone who disagrees with you to such a simplistic cartoon is not conducive to intellectually honest debate.

allistar sinclair
I read your comments adressed to me with great amusement..you say my "actual harm" arguement is a red herring..when in fact it is the basis of our legal system when it comes to rights (yelling fire in a crowded theater could result in actual harm, like people being trampled to death....thus it is just and reasonably restricted despite our right to free speech)..in fact,the concept of a reasonable person anticipating harm provides a consistent and measureable test that prevents our laws from being arbitrary...(So obviously you are the real supporter of relative legislation-the whim of the majority as the basis)

In terms of global/historical tradition and belief...do we really need to again remind you that slavery (an institution that any decent, enlightend individual finds deplorable)was acceptable in the Bible as well as what you would define as the civilized world. It is not that slavery was good back when it was practiced and it has somehow changed to be bad. Slavery was and will always be evil...most of us are just more enlightened to that evil today. (Again, I present a consistent, principled opinion: you may argue historical relativity if you want.....afterall you are the relativist.)Most likely, within a few deacades Americans will wonder what the debate was about back in 2008..as these issues fade into irrelevancy with gays and heterosexuals living coequally.

So again, if gay marriage is a relative issue to you...majority say no today but yes tommorrow...thats your CHOICE. (Again, you are the relativist) Once again....I don't believe law should be based on arbitrary whim of the majority and the relativity of history.

Hmmm...it appears my liberal beliefs are less relative than yours...imagine that.

Scott
Sure it was a bait and switch and a relatively simple one...however, none of those posts you cited actually challenged Sowell on his premise or on his high lighting a few extremists as the foundation of his thesis. Similarly, you have never adressed my thesis that the fundamental right to free speech and assembly does not end despite a popular vote and that the excercise thereof is not whining and complaining.

And no, I do not apologize for using the bait and switch...and your arguement that you only have to adress the examples of intellectual dishonesty that "fit" your argument, or that you choose to address is intellectually dishonest when my entire point that you are debating is the intellectual dishonesty of Sowell and his supporters.

ARJAY
Your arguments symbolise to me everything that is wrong with contemporary liberalism. By your way of thinking, everyone who thinks they have a just cause, no matter how small a minority they exist in, should have their way, ie, the tail has the right to wag the dog.
PETA folks should be able to prevent anyone from eating meat, or owning a pet. They are a minority, but they believe their cause to be just.
Where would this kind of thinking lead us? Anarchy comes to mind. Arjay, you might want to give some thought to growing up.

and leading the pack from the 60s
is Chicago's neighborhood celebrity, Bill Ayers, with his infamous quote "guilty as hell and free as a bird" - with his only regret that they didn't do enough bombing!

I, too, have wondered what would have happened in Chicago the evening of November 4 had the election results been different. Over a million 'believers' would have felt justified in not accepting the will of the people and heaven only knows what might have happened.

It does get old being the 'grownup' all the time. Civilized society as we once knew it has disappeared from America.

Tarmangani - Post #2
It seems as if the will of the people is no longer applicable in America.

At least in Massachusetts, we have lost the right to even cast our vote - of course, the governor knew full well that, given the opportunity, the citizens would vote to overturn the JUDICIAL LAWMAKING that took place to allow same sex marriage in our state. Therefore, he just told the legislature that they should not allow the matter to be placed on the ballot for a vote.

GREAT SOCIALISTIC STATE, FOLKS - and this is just a little taste of what is to come in America - God help us all.

Charlie - Post #6
I agree completely with the abduction of a perfectly good word that used to be a sincere form of expressing happiness.

kerijay - FL
My husband and I are sickened to realize that our votes were negated by the likes of the folks in that video...howobamagotelected.com

There should be a darn test to qualify an individual to vote - and knowing who the dickens the leaders of the House and Senate are two wrong answers for disqualification!!!

God help us all - these are the future leaders of our country???????????????????????????

JB - VA
Hillary also won the Democrat primary in Massachusetts but the governor and Ted Kennedy and John Kerry came out soon thereafter for Obama. So much for consideration of the will of the people!

JB - VA
Of course, if the Dems hadn't sent busloads of "well, I might move to NH so let me vote in the primary" people, John McCain might not have won the NH primary...and conservatives might have had someone they could truly support and vote for...instead of voting against a socialist.

GeorgeTwin - MD
and don't forget the "everyone gets a red ribbon" in elementary contests now...no more blue ribbons...heaven forbid, someone might FEEL slighted.

You hit the nail on the head...self esteem is a very necessary ingredient in character development and the hippies who have taken over the education of our children are determined that a strong character is no longer needed in the "great society"

Semper Libertas - A punt?


Semper Libertas: “Ok, you're right. There are no recorded instances of violence or intolerance outside abortion clinics, against anti-war protesters, or against gays.”

What is that, a “punt”?

You punted?

No one argues that there has never been instances of violence outside of abortion clinics, against anti-war protesters, or against gays. That’s not the subject of our discussion, but it is an example of fallacious reasoning called a red-herring. If it was intentional, then it’s not even a punt. The intentional use of fallacious reasoning is capitulation.


~~~


Semper Libertas: “More importantly, note that your analogy is not correct.”

I maintain that it is correct, certainly for the purpose of showing that the substance of your proposition (that conservatives would respond to an Amendment legalizing abortion the same as radical Leftists have responded to Prop 8) is demonstrably false.


~~~


Semper Libertas: “Agree or not with the CA Supreme Court, its decision did NOT limit the right of straight couples to marry, nor did it limit anyone's liberties or civil rights.”

The implication of your statement is that a decision that does *not limit* something is acceptable, and a decision that *does limit* something warrants criminal behavior, but that is absurd on its face.

It is not possible to “limit” a “right” that does not in fact exist.


~~~


Semper Libertas: “Prop 8 DID restrict the liberties of same-sex couples to have their marriage contracts recognized by the government.”

So what? All kinds of so-called “liberties” are restricted for all kinds of reasons. Homosexuals do not have a God-given “right” to get married, and 4 out of 7 justices on the CA Supreme Court cannot make it one.

To remove any doubt that such judicial tyranny will NOT be tolerated, the good people of California amended their Constitution, so that the unfortunate proclivity for their justices to abuse their power on this subject was ended.


Arjay - standard for marriage is God's


Arjay writes: “So again, if gay marriage is a relative issue to you...majority say no today but yes tommorrow...thats your CHOICE.”


The majority said no yesterday, and the day before that, and the day before that. There has not been a day when the majority said “yes” to gay marriage, and to suggest otherwise is disingenuous. To suggest that such a day will ever come cannot be anything more than speculation, by definition.


~~~


Arjay writes: “Once again....I don't believe law should be based on arbitrary whim of the majority and the relativity of history.”


There is no evidence to suggest that the majority decided this issue on an “arbitrary whim”.

If you would prefer that such decisions are made by an unaccountable few who lawlessly violate the checks and balances of government to create new law out of whole cloth in order to suit the prevailing politically correct winds of the moment, that is a position one could hold.

But if one would advocate taking the power of government out of the hands of the people and turning it over to an oligarchy, be prepared to endure the consequences when tyrannical justices make decisions that *you* don’t like. Because sooner or later, you can be sure they will.

Marriage has been between a man and a woman for 6,000+ years (cf. Genesis 2:24). The standard is God’s, and there is nothing “relative” about it.


Arjay - I did not ask you to apologize…


Arjay writes: “Sure it was a bait and switch and a relatively simple one...”

How is anyone supposed to take you seriously, when you admit to serial intentional deceit and dishonesty, with malice aforethought?

That’s nothing I have done or could do, it is something only you could do to yourself. You have discredited yourself.


~~~


Arjay writes: “Similarly, you have never adressed my thesis that the fundamental right to free speech and assembly does not end despite a popular vote and that the excercise thereof is not whining and complaining.”


I don’t know anything about your “thesis”, formally stated or otherwise; a word search shows that the word “thesis” does not appear in this entire Thread until your post at 8:33pm. I can only respond to the things you have plainly written. Expecting someone to address thoughts in your head is a bit of a stretch, particularly considering your demonstrated willingness to engage in purposeful deceit.

No one has argued that anyone’s “fundamental right to free speech and assembly” has ended due to a popular vote, and you know it. That is another dishonest proposition, and another red-herring.

The problem occurs when the exercise of free speech and assembly violates OTHER peoples’ rights, or established law. For example, people have the right to assemble in church without the sanctity of their worship being violated by malcontents, and little old ladies have the right to peacefully object to gay marriage without being assaulted and battered by homosexual activists.

There was a time not so long ago when these points were self-evident, and did not need to be formally addressed…


~~~


Arjay writes: “And no, I do not apologize for using the bait and switch...”

I did not ask you to.

Your repeated admissions of intentional dishonesty are more than adequate for purposes of this discussion, and I am confident that anyone reading our exchanges here can reach their own conclusion.


"By any means necessary"
Someone familiar with Malcom X's statement, please comment on the following. I only have a passing familiarity with it. What was Malcom X saying when he said this? Was it a more positive statement of saying I will do whatever I have to do improve myself and my situation, like study hard or work out or whatever. Or, was he demanding his civil rights be recognized and advocating / threatening violence if they were not?

The reason I am asking is it seems to me whatever the original meaning there are many who use that phrase to justify immediately threaten violence (or who actually turn violent) if whatever they are demanding is not met. This kind of negative thinking may be justified if we are talking about protecting one's inalienable rights, but seems a bit overused.

The right to win?
Why not call this activity what it is- Domestic Terrorism?


re: Scott
quote: "No one argues that there has never been instances of violence outside of abortion clinics, against anti-war protesters, or against gays. That’s not the subject of our discussion, but it is an example of fallacious reasoning called a red-herring. If it was intentional, then it’s not even a punt. The intentional use of fallacious reasoning is capitulation."

No, your remarks were basically that "there's no need for speculation" because their was no wide-scale violent response to the CA Supreme Court ruling.

quote: "I maintain that it is correct, certainly for the purpose of showing that the substance of your proposition (that conservatives would respond to an Amendment legalizing abortion the same as radical Leftists have responded to Prop 8) is demonstrably false."

Well, it can't be "demonstrably false", since it has never been demonstrated -- there's never been such an amendment. If you really believe there would be no widespread protest -- and some violence -- in the face of such a decision, then we'll just have to agree to disagree on that.

quote: "The implication of your statement is that a decision that does *not limit* something is acceptable, and a decision that *does limit* something warrants criminal behavior, but that is absurd on its face."

I would say that any law or decision that limits the right to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness, seizes property, or promotes inequality before the law is wrong and, more importantly, unjust.

quote: "It is not possible to “limit” a “right” that does not in fact exist."

You don't have a "right" not to be taxed. Let's say that the "will of the people" resulted in no income taxes being collected on gay people. Since you don't have a "right" not to be taxed, your "rights" were not limited by such a law under your reasoning. Under my reasoning, this would be an unjust law.

re: Scott, cont.
quote: "So what? All kinds of so-called “liberties” are restricted for all kinds of reasons. Homosexuals do not have a God-given “right” to get married, and 4 out of 7 justices on the CA Supreme Court cannot make it one."

ALL people, gay or straight, have a "God-given 'right'" to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Our country is built on that, and the idea of equality before the law. I don't regard the restriction of liberties as a "So what?" issue, I consider that of the highest importance. The very purpose of government is to protect liberty.

"It is to secure our rights that we resort to government at all." -- Thomas Jefferson

quote: "To remove any doubt that such judicial tyranny will NOT be tolerated, the good people of California amended their Constitution, so that the unfortunate proclivity for their justices to abuse their power on this subject was ended."

So you're against "judicial tyranny", but in favor of tyranny of the majority.

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." -- Benjamin Franklin

re: Scott, conc.
And yes, overall I do believe that an expansion of equal protection under the law and individual liberty is a good thing, in all cases, so long as it doesn't intrude on the liberties of another. Same-sex marriage is just such an issue: it expands the advantages regarding taxes, estates, property, visitation, insurance, etc. that are related to government recognition of a marriage contract to ALL, not just a favored majority. It intrudes on the liberties of NOBODY. Homosexuality does offend some people, but there is no right not to be offended.

"Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. ..." -- Lord Acton

Hospital Visitation
Here is a falsehood if I ever heard one. "If my partner is sick and dieing in the hospital I won't be able to visit unless we are married."

Curious, I stopped at the admissions desk of our local hospital. The admission form lists 8 different types of relationships including "friend" and ends with "other".

Case closed on that false argument.


re: MB
There are certain situations where immediate family members are the only ones allowed, and some medical decisions that can only be made by immediate family members.

So: not a false argument, case not closed.

Life with one hand tied back
" A Error in Judgement, is soon followed by an error in practice"
Human Beings are universally subject to failure in varying degrees.. Many load their knapsacks with big rocks.
The coloring of judgement through a permeating(near total preoccupation with and performance of Homosexuality) places others at risk; as does other sociopathic behavior. Drunk driver, Pedophile, maniac, robber , wife -beater ETC..

Barry Franks is living proof...Evidence could show he was involved sexually on many fronts that directly impacted on America to the tune of BILLIONS and Billions And Billions of $....DIRECTLY RELATED TO HIS HOMOSEXUALITY. Call it what it is Deviancy.

re: Bill
Robbers, pedophiles, wife-beaters, and drunk drivers infringe on the liberties of others. Someone else's sex life, whether gay or straight, does not, and is none of your business. There are plenty of heterosexual practices that some would define as "deviancy"; that's fine, you're allowed to define it however you wish. Just don't use the force of government to define it for me.

Barney Frank is a clown, but it doesn't have anything to do with his homosexuality. The same types of situations could have occurred in heterosexual scenarios and would be no better nor worse. His problems are based on ideology and corruption. That he's also gay is extraneous.

RE: MB
Would you please list the exceptions. Why not fill out and sign a Medical Power of Attorney form and take the guess work out of it. I know this works as I was the one that let a person die according to his wishes while I was standing near his bed.

Semper Libertas
Still at it with your BS, huh? Where's your pal, Hunter?
As some 80% of Americans seem to know, all the "gay-marriage" BS has NOTHING to do with rights. Gays already have all the same rights, or can have, via civil union statutes.
This is about gay propaganda strategists using the police power of the state to try to own the word "marriage" strictly for propaganda purposes of brainwashing straights into viewing homosexuality as "normal", which it self-evidently is not.
This is about This is about gay propaganda strategists using the police power of the state to try to repress the speech of people who disagree with them as "hate" or "homophobia".
This is about gay propaganda strategists having no respect for the democratic process which overwhelmingly rejected their propaganda BS.
As far as I'm concerned, if they want to take to the streets like a bunch of spoiled brats, then let's go back to criminalizing homosexual behavior.
Tolerance? Don't make me laugh. Gay propaganda strategists don't know the meaning of the word.
The more gay activists want to behave like a bunch of spoiled-brat jerks, the more I start to suspect Moses and his Old Testament Jew Boys might have had it right about the Leviticus death penalty thing, and the more
I'm rooting for a big time backlash.

threat by SF supervisor
I find it interesting that this supervisor's magnanimity and tolerance are the foundation for why Mormons can be allowed to worship or exist......what chutzpah! what arrogance! and telling us that we apparently have forgotten some lessons? this guy is clueless.....had the mormons in Nauvoo in 1844 chosen to, we could have wiped out the mobs that came after us and drove us out......the Nauvoo legion, a 5000 man trained and authorized military force (by the state charter for nauvoo), would have decimated the mobs.....instead, we turned the other cheek and left--when we really did not have to.....our prophet told the other leaders to not retaliate and not engage.....believe me, supervisor, we do not need your permission whatsoever to be latter day saints and to enjoy our rights as US citizens...while we seek no conflict with anyone, and always want peace, you would be very unwise to assume that you have the power to interrupt our rights and faith....and should you try, likely you will suffer the same fate that Jackson county Missourians mobbers suffered immediately following the end of the civil war (the Prophet Joseph Smith prophesied in 1838, that the wrath of God hung over Jackson county and that eventually they would drink fourfold the cup of persecution that they unjustly inflicted on the LDS community) : Kansas Jayhawkers did not stop the warring and raiding following the end of the civil war....for two more years, these "jayhawkers" kept crossing the border and burning towns to the ground, and killing and raping, destroying farms, ranches and crops....be very careful supervisor man....you have apparently forgotten the devastating power of the earthquake that has visited your immoral and corrupt San Francisco......if I were you, I would move out of the bay area asap......

Demand Obama PROVE US born citizenship
Act NOW: Demand Obama PROVE He's A US Natural Born Citizen!

Isn't arguing about "Obama's horrendous policies and cabinet picks" a little PREMATURE & PRESUMPTUOUS? He's simply NOT QUALIFIED to be president because he is not a natural US born citizen; and if the GOP were SMART they'd focus on this and ONLY THIS NOW UNTIL RESOLVED!

worldnetdaily.com — Subject: the time for CONGRESSIONAL HEARINGS is NOW This may be the most important thing we can do in the next four years. Fight for freedom while we still have it. Please spread this message far and wide. Paste links below on TownHall.com and anywhere else you visit while blogging. Contact radio & TV stations... And remember, Goliath lost.

Get the latest updates on the Obama fake birth certificate cases:
http://moniquemonicat.wordpress.com/2008/11/10/%E2%80%A2-la test-update-on-obama-birth-certificate-case/

View Obama’s fake birth certificate:
http://moniquemonicat.wordpress.com/obama-proof-he-was-born -in-kenya-fake-birth-certificate/

Handrock
God didn't decide that I have to get my car inspected every two years. God didn't decide that I couldn't buy liquor until I was 21. God didn't decide that I can't eat on the subway. (Not in DC anyway.) Those are matters for Caesar. And so is whether two men or two women can pay taxes as a couple rather than two singles. If God sends them to hell that's his business. Down here on Earth civil matters are controlled by civil law.

Rights
We've got to get Thomas out front and expose the American people to him. Those like me, a white, middle class inner city teacher, cringe when liberals take advantage of blacks in their pursuit of power. Many like me are on a sense of mission to encourage the values that have ebabled people the world over to realize their God-given talents.I regret that a conservative black wasn't running for the Presidency so that I could actively campaign for him/her. It would have been a victory in countless ways. Speak at conventions, Thomas. Get your message out there!

Rights
Every morning I awake I look in the mirror and see a black American. I survived the Jim Crow laws of yesteryear by the grace of God and am truely thankful to live in America. But when I see the struggle my ancestors and my parents made into an excuse for sexual behavior, it makes me ill. Any gay or lesbian can walk into any place they wish and not be known to be gay or lesbian. They in essence have complete anonimity until they openly discuss their behavior. Yes, I voted to preserve traditional marriage and so did the majority of Americans, so if I am at odds with the rainbow community, so be it. But don't expect me to lie down and be accosted by you. You will be in for a rude awakening, because I'm not politically correct.

And ON THE OTHER SIDE ....
What also gets me is that if they do win, they immediately demand that you must join them in whatever it was they wanted as if the win justifies everything. "You MUST join us now that Obama has won! He's your President now so you MUST do as he wants!"

Somehow I'm also missing something. Why does a win mean that I now have to join in whatever they wanted? For instance, if the gays had won, did this mean that I MUST become gay too? Now that Obama won, does this mean that I MUST love to pay taxes so that others won't have to work?

I always thought a political win by someone you didn't like meant that you needed to continue to express your position. The opposition certainly did when they lost!!!

sjpatejak wrote:
"If God sends them to hell that's his business. Down here on Earth civil matters are controlled by civil law."

You are right. It is controlled by CIVIL law. So why aren't you willing to settle for a CIVIL union?

The Question still remains/Semper
My question still remains what is law based upon? Why is murder wrong if it is not a moral transgression? Why is polygamy wrong, or is it?Is it ok to marry your sister? And you can't use genetics as the reason. That would only apply to recessive genes that would be harmful.
Do you see what I am questioning?
I am seriously asking what you see as the basis for deciding what is enforceable.
I understand murder, theft, and some of the other laws that violate the rights of someone else. But without morality being a common theme what is the basis of the laws you propose?
The common theme is that we shouldn't force our sense of morality on others, but we do whenever we enact a law. Someones sence of morality is the basis of every law, so how do you define what is an acceptable law and what is beyond the bounds of goverment?

Equal protection under the law for all behavior?

sjpatejak
No of course GOD didn't. That wasn't even remotely what I was suggesting. But since you brought those laws up, who did decide that they should be laws and based on what?

The question remains, there will always be laws, if not based on morality what then will they be based on? Your idea of right and wrong? Mine or Thomas Sowells?
In order to decide what is permissible in this or any society you have to have a basis for your laws. What then should ours be based on since there are so many liberals opposed to Christian ethics?
Is everything permissible?

re: Gideon
quote: "all the "gay-marriage" BS has NOTHING to do with rights. Gays already have all the same rights, or can have, via civil union statutes."

Actually, most states don't have civil union laws. And do you know any gay people? The ones I know, the marriage thing has EVERYTHING to do with rights.

quote: "This is about gay propaganda strategists using the police power of the state to try to own the word "marriage" strictly for propaganda purposes..."

There's no "ownership" involved of anything. They are simply seeking the SAME recognition of their marriage contracts that straight couples get for theirs. There's no "police state" involved -- the rights or liberties of NO ONE else is infringed upon.

quote: "This is about gay propaganda strategists using the police power of the state to try to repress the speech of people who disagree with them as "hate" or "homophobia"."

If laws are passed abridging the right of free speech, then I'll certainly protest them. However, you do NOT have a right not to be offended. You don't have a right not to be called names. You don't have a right not to have your feelings hurt. Sorry, I'll fight for your right to pursue happiness and everyone else's; however, neither you nor anyone else has the right to BE happy.

quote: "having no respect for the democratic process which overwhelmingly rejected their propaganda BS."

So how would YOU react if the "democratic process" resulting in, say, the government no longer recognizing "traditional" marriage and ONLY recognizing same-sex marriage?

BTW, I'm not condoning in the least the crazies who are being violent or infringing on the liberties of others. But peaceful protest is certainly protected, and the vast majority of the protests have NOT been the violent ones.

re: 45caliber
quote: "You are right. It is controlled by CIVIL law. So why aren't you willing to settle for a CIVIL union?"

Are YOU willing to "settle for a civil union"? Actually, I am, and I'm straight. If I get married, the true sanctity of my union will be before God, as exercised in my church. The government recognition of it will be for contractual purposes, and I'm fine with the government only issuing "civil unions" to ALL couples. That would take some of the emotion out of this, since it is the word "marriage" that seems to get so many folks' panties in a bunch.

re: Handrock
quote: "My question still remains what is law based upon? Why is murder wrong if it is not a moral transgression? Why is polygamy wrong, or is it?Is it ok to marry your sister? And you can't use genetics as the reason. That would only apply to recessive genes that would be harmful."

The purpose of government is to protect individual liberty -- to protect our rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. To protect our property rights and rights of self.

Personally, I don't see why polygamy is anyone's business, so long as the participants are all consenting adults, but that's another matter altogether, and if you're going to use the morality argument on that one, then you're going to have to explain the Old Testament patriarchs who practiced it.

re: Handrock, cont.
quote: "Do you see what I am questioning?
I am seriously asking what you see as the basis for deciding what is enforceable.
I understand murder, theft, and some of the other laws that violate the rights of someone else. But without morality being a common theme what is the basis of the laws you propose?"

Again, the basis is protecting each individual's liberty, protecting equality before the law. Whether or not you lie to your wife is not my business, nor the government's. Whether or not you beat her is. Both are immoral.

quote: "The common theme is that we shouldn't force our sense of morality on others, but we do whenever we enact a law. Someones sence of morality is the basis of every law, so how do you define what is an acceptable law and what is beyond the bounds of goverment?"

You aren't forcing any morality on anyone when you enact laws that protect liberty. We are then each able to act according to our own moral code so long as we don't infringe upon the liberty of others.

The problem is that when you start saying you want the government to enforce a moral code, whose moral code do you enforce?

Nowhere in the DoC or the Constitution is morality mentioned as a function of government.

quote: "Equal protection under the law for all behavior?"

All behavior that doesn't infringe upon the liberties of another, yes.

If you find a particular behavior distasteful or immoral, you have every right to try to persuade someone not to partake in it. You have every right to join together with other like-minded people and increase your voice. But you have no right to impose your morality on me, even if a majority of people agree.

re: Handrock, conc.
quote: "The question remains, there will always be laws, if not based on morality what then will they be based on? Your idea of right and wrong? Mine or Thomas Sowells?"

See, you describe your own problem. If laws are not based on protecting each person's equality before the law and his liberties, then whose morality should they be based on? Christian morality? If so, then whose interpretation of it. Should all immoral acts be outlawed? If so, you're basically calling for a police state to make sure nobody lies about how much many they make, or lies to their wife about where they were last night. We'd better ban all but missionary position sex between married couples seeking to procreate. We'll have to ban all cursing. And, we'll need thought police to ensure nobody "has lust in his heart".

If we're going to enforce strict Old Testament law, the Department of Agriculture will be HUGE, to ensure the planting and harvesting instructions in the Torah are followed to the letter. And so on.

Morality is between you and God, not you and government.

The Right To Win
The great majority of Americans forget or are unaware of the principles this country was founded on. Read the writings of our forefathers and you will find that all warned that when we wandered from those foundations we would evaporate as a country.

"Nobody is in favor of anarchy. But some people want everybody else to obey the rules, while they don't have to." - Sounds dreadfully like the politicians in Washington!!

re: Norman
I agree 100%. The Federalist Papers and Declaration of Independence are still appropriate today. And for that matter, Wealth of Nations is still right on as well, although I will admit to preferring the abridged PJ O'Rourke version :D

Get ready for the new mob rule
For the first time we have a president who is trained in the use of mobs to influence decision making and has no hesitancy to use them. Just as 100's of protesters on their front lawns forced recalitrant bank presidents to make whatever number of bad home loans ACORN thought appropriate, millions of Obama supporters are being organized right now to descend on congresss or on individual congressman's home offices and homes should they dare vote against any proposal the fuhrer/president has decreed. I know. I get the emails, because I signed up to help in his campaign. Company presidents or board members that do not bend swiftly to his will shall receive the same treatment. They, their wives, their children, none will be safe from attack should they not submit and submit quickly.

Response to Tarmangani
It is not the purpose of ballot initiatives to give the majority absolute control over minorities. I doubt you would consider an initiative fair that stated that Jews and homosexuals should be rounded up and gassed to death, but that is effectively what happened in Germany sixty years ago when the 'National Socialist' (i.e. Nazi) Party was elected to power.

In this country we recognize the possibility that there can be a 'tyranny of the majority', so we have the courts to resolve unjust initiatives. The courts will decide if gay marriage prohibitions fit this definition.

Anti-miscegenation law, anti-sodomy law
The 18th Amendment to the U.S. constitution, etc., etc. - all are examples of miscarriages of justice that were subsequently overturned in more enlightened times.

Is every public protest by an aggrieved group now defined as a 'childish tantrum'? Is there no right to public protest of any issue? What are the chances there would ever be equal rights for any minority if they didn't put up a fight about it - and in this case a non-violent fight?

Nation will rise against nation
people group against people group.

Things are moving along swimmingly.

Semper
We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge or gallantry would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution is designed only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for any other.
John Adams
US diplomat & politician (1735 - 1826)


What you are speaking of has never existed nor will it ever exist. It has a wonderful ring to it though, but with some thought and perspective the folly becomes evident. What you are advocating is a world without constraints on personal behavior, unless it immediately infringes of your "liberty". Vulgarity, lascivious behavior, drug abuse, bestiality, prostitution, untamed greed, would all run rampant in your society.


You seem to not understand what I am asking you. If there is no moral constraint, and I understand that it is not the place of the government to instill morals, what then would you base your laws on. Liberty is too vague a definition. Can I run around calling people racial epithets, showing my genitals? That might bother you, but not everyone else.

Your solution is the same as saying let everyone work and that will end poverty.

re: Handrock
Are you saying that "Vulgarity, lascivious behavior, drug abuse... prostitution, [and] untamed greed" aren't already pretty common? As for bestiality, well, the animal isn't exactly a consenting adult so that's not a good example. Also, I don't recall there being any laws ever against "greed"; are you advocating thusly? Laws against vulgarity in the privacy of one's home -- favor those?

Showing your genitals in public is a different thing. However, walking around naked in your own house is none of anyone's business, including the government. Using racial epithets is covered by free speech, just as the coarse use of epithets against gays is on this threat. Any business owner, of course, can choose to throw you out for using them, and you might get punched in the nose. And, in the public square, there is of course a little more recourse.

My "solution" is the same as saying that it isn't the government's job to tell businesses what to do either, so long as they are not using fraud or coercion. Government shouldn't get in the way of consenting adults engaging in commerce. I'm a free market capitalist all the way around; my philosophy is consistent.

Handrock: One Last Thing
Your quote from John Adams says nothing to bolster your point. I'm not advocating immorality. But to believe that the government can spread morality is pure folly, and the first sentence of your John Adams quote says as much.

I also like another Adams quote: "The only maxim of a free government ought to be to trust no man living with power to endanger the public liberty."

And with that, I'm off for the weekend.

Semper
"Are you saying that "Vulgarity, lascivious behavior, drug abuse... prostitution, [and] untamed greed" aren't already pretty common? "

You are exactly correct, but that hasn't always been the case.
Free market capitalism is fine, from my point of view it will only work with a moral people.
I find it interesting that (and I am not suggesting that you are one) atheists always bring up some arcane law from the old Testament, generally something from Leviticus or Exodus to discredit Christian morality. It only demonstrates their ignorance of the concept of Grace and the meaning of the price Christ paid for us. As Paul said:
1 Cor 6:12, All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be mastered by anything.

We are not bound by the arcane aspect of the law, but we must live life to the benefit of others. In my opinion the Amish are a great example of Christianity, though I do have differences of opinion about some of their beliefs.

You may think that free market capitalism is the path, and that others morality is of little concern. I see it as a powerful ship set sail without a rudder or compass.

Marxism would probably work except for the lack of morality adopted by the Communists.

Excellent article.
Nicely said Tom.

-M

Ah, the Perfumed-Scent of Reason
wafting through the haze of ignorance, intellectual relativism and confusion? Or, is it another perspicacious column from the laser-sharp pen(or keyboard) of Dr. Sowell?

Right to Win?
Although I can agree with you on the Prop 8 part, I think you're wrong about Hillary. The thing that outraged Hillary supporters was that Hillary actually won the populart vote but Obama was awarded more super delegates. It seems that in the party of "democracy" all delegates may be equal but some delegates are more equal than others eh?

Animal Farm
As the agenda of the left has become more and more the agenda of America it has been shown for what it is.

Anti-democratic and anti-tolerance. The 'creation' of 'rights' without basis has created the sense of entitlement that pervades the politics of America.

American's cannot see the difference between equal opportunity and equal outcomes.

The debasement of the concept of rights has created, as Dr. Sowell points out, the expectation that any special group will succeed regardless of its ability to do so.

He points out that some in the gay community feel that they have a set of rights that supersede those that are actually enshrined in the constitution. In this case freedom of religion.

But the underlaying principle by which those members of the gay community base their case is the false assumption that one set of rights is or can be superior to some other set of rights.

To solve this we need only apply the law, and when demonstrations become non-peaceful, read the riot act and arrest anyone who does not disburse in the period required.

If I were attacked by anyone as I participated in a lawful demonstration that person could be assured of a charge of assault and a civil lawsuit.

The reason this isn't done, is because the left has hijacked the Constitution. We now live in an America where "four legs are good but two legs are better."

Cheers,

Bloefeld

Boone
I believe you are onto exactly how this country is about to be ruled.

Democracy is going to be disposed of and the "will of the people" will be replaced by "mob rule." This is clearly stated in the Obama play-book "Rules for Radicals" by Saul Alinksy.

The Communist take-over of the United States is too near to complete. And too many American's can not see it for what it is. Busy as they are waiting for the 'free' money the President Elect has promised them.

Thank you for your keen and insightful observations.

We will probably meet in some "re-education" camp in the next couple of years.

Cheers,

Bloefeld

Americans using the MSM for fuel
are ignorant, intolerant and have no idea what having humility means. Winning is paramount even if you have to lie or weight the real evidence as does the liberal media.

I like Jim Croce's take on not always coming out on top.

"Oh, sometimes skies are cloudy
And sometimes skies are blue
And sometimes they say that you eat the bear
But sometimes the bear eats you
And sometimes I feel like I should go
Far far away and hide
'Cause I keep a waitin' for my ship to come in
And all that ever comes is the tide."


Dr. Sowell's Nov 19th Article
I would like to ask why this website indicates comments as being offensive through the use of flags? Cogent, beautifully written comments that contain nothing but ideas, (certainly not epithets)are, time and again, "flagged."

Who determines that these comments are offensive, and how is that determination reached? Obviously, the reason is because these comments present a view that differs from that of someone who does not agree with the ideas expressed? WHO IS THAT PERSON?

I would appreciate an explanation, because I find this practice offensive. People have the right to proffer appropriately written comments without being negatively labeled.

What is Wrong
with homosexual lifestyles? The answer is simple: It is a perversion of our design as humans. We were designed to be attracted to the opposite sex, to form a permanent union with our selected mate, reproduce children, and rear them in a whole family with a male and female parent. If we study objectively the emotional, social, and spiritual development of children, we will find that the disruption of these basic developmental influences cause many and varied personality disorders.

I worked in a mechanic shop with a man who used his hand instead of a hammer to hit parts to remove them. He got away with it for years. One day, he hit a brake part with the heel of his hand, and broke the bones. His hand got worse and worse as he broke it repeatedly. Finally, he could barely work at all. You see, his hand was not designed to be a hammer. Get the message?

Civil rights versus perceived rights
To everyone getting in a tiff over the "rights" taken away by Proposition 8, the only "right" taken away was the "right" to marry. Same sex partners do not have the "right" to marry no more than I have the "right" to enter into a domestic partnership (as I am neither over the age of 62 nor of the same sex as my husband). If the California supreme court were to say it was legal for me to enter into a domestic partnership and then the people passed a ballot initiative stating that "only domestic partnerships between same sex or over age 62 couples will be valid and recognized in the state of California" I wouldn't care in the least and I certainly wouldn't hold a protest about it. Someone please read California Family Code 297.5 which states "Registered domestic partners shall have the same rights, protections, and benefits, and shall be subject to the same responsibilities, obligations, and duties under law, whether they derive from statutes, administrative regulations, court rules, government policies, common law, or any other provisions or sources of law, as are granted to and imposed upon spouses." I fail to see how this denies ANY benefits to domestic partnerships. So let's make it clear that this is NOT about civil rights, it is about the definition of a word.

RE: gene
gene wrote: "What are the chances there would ever be equal rights for any minority if they didn't put up a fight about it - and in this case a non-violent fight?"

Gene, how is this a "non-violent fight"? I fail to see how death threats, harassing old ladies, and assaulting prayer groups both physically and sexually is "non-violent". I find the comparison of these protests with Martin Luther King Jr. to be despicable. I don't remember Dr. King standing in front of someone's house of worship with a sign reading "WHITE SCUM!" but that didn’t stop the 2000 protestors in front of our temple in LA. I also don't recall the good Doctor ever scrawling on private property or yelling obscenities or stealing personal property, but the "No on 8" crowd has done all of this.

I would never claim that this is the attitude of the homosexual community as a whole, but the fact that nothing has been said to denounce the violent actions of some says pages about the many.

RE: Semper Libertas
I completely advocate removing the governmental right to define or perform marriage. Perhaps California should put that on the ballot. That way, the government can stop stepping into the business of religious institutions like the church in Connecticut that refused to bless a same sex marriage, was sued by the couple, and lost because of Connecticut's judicially imposed laws. How is that allowing religious freedom?

As for there not being amendments regarding abortion, may I point you to Colorado Amendment 48, just rejected by over 70% of voters, that would have defined life as beginning at the moment of conception (and thus protected what I view as the rights of a human to live). There were no pro-life protestors shouting hateful comments at passerby in Colorado, nor any violence done towards pro-choice voters.

I’m sorry, but all these actions by the homosexual community just make me scared about the safety of my family in the face of these "non-violent" protestors when this issue comes to my neck of the woods. Do I have the right to "NOT be offended" as you have so often stated? No. But I have the right to live my life without fear of bodily harm. I do believe death threats are still illegal in this country.

This Point Defines Liberals As Well

"When the majority of the people become like sheep, who will tolerate intolerance rather than make a fuss, then there is no limit to how far any group will go."


We have not rightfully responded to "make a fuss" on any of the dozens of issues save one, the Shamnesty bill. With no leadership other than our own voices we crashed the Senate phone system to deny Congress and the Executive branch...where are those voices now!? Speak UP!

Beth/Bloefeld
Beth,

Well written and reasoned!

Bloefeld,

Pure Democracy is mob rule, we actually live in a Democratic Republic. The founding Fathers had studied past form of government and knew that Democracy is a fire the consumes everything. But in order to garner more votes the form of government has been changed into a form more resembling a pure Democracy.
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