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Tuesday, August 19, 2008
Thomas Sowell :: Townhall.com Columnist
Georgia On Our Mind
by Thomas Sowell
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What is happening in the republic of Georgia is all too reminiscent of what happened back in 1956, when Russian tanks rolled into Hungary-- and the West did nothing.

An argument might well be made that, realistically, there was nothing the West could have done-- then or now-- that would have forced the Russians out.

But there was bitterness, then as now, that the West may have encouraged people to risk their lives, relying on us, when we knew from the outset that we were not about to risk armed conflict with a nuclear superpower over Hungary then or Georgia now.

The West has a long history of doing nothing, utilizing the United Nations, and before that the League of Nations, to create the illusion that they are doing something, when they make speeches and pass resolutions.

Neither speeches nor resolutions are going to make any difference to the Russians, to the Iranians or to any other belligerent nation. We know it, they know it and the world knows it.

Apparently Barack Obama doesn't yet know it, judging by his initial response to news of the Russian invasion of Georgia, which was to call on "both sides" to cease fire and then go to the U.N.

Later he changed his position to correspond to John McCain's more grown-up position that Russians have to pay a price if we expect them to change their behavior.

The real question is whether we can force the Russians to pay a serious price without ourselves paying a more serious price than we are prepared to pay. The Russians have already pointed out that the United States needs their cooperation on international problems.

These problems include the war on terrorism and perhaps the biggest problem of them all, Iran's movement toward building nuclear weapons that can be used either directly by Iran or-- more likely-- by turning some of these nuclear bombs over to terrorists whom Iran has been supplying with other weapons.

There are two problems: (1) What are we going to do? and (2) What are we going to say?

There are lots of things we can do, if we don't care about the repercussions-- but of course we do care. The only thing we have complete control over is what we say.

We have been saying far too much already, especially in proportion to what we were prepared to do. This is a problem that began long before this administration. Sometimes it has seemed as if our foreign policy is to speak loudly and carry a little stick.

American presidents, through several administrations, have been publicly commenting moralistically on the internal affairs of other countries around the world.

We have been criticizing friend and foe alike. Sometimes we have sounded like the world's nanny.

This has been more than a bad habit. Our nagging our friends and irritating our enemies has produced remarkably few benefits to anyone and much ill-will among countries whose cooperation we either have needed or will need.

Our butting into things that are none of our business has taken the form of actions as well as words. Extending NATO right up to the borders of Russia has been one of those feel-good actions, much like our feel-good moralizing to other countries.

Are we really prepared to go to war with Russia if they send troops into Latvia, a NATO member next door to them and thousands of miles away from us?

Some people seem to think that, if we had already included Georgia in NATO, Russia would not have attacked. But what if they attacked anyway? Would we have done any more than we are doing now?

Would that have protected Georgia or would our inaction have just brought the reliability of our protection of other NATO countries into question?

If anything, we ought to be thinking about pulling out of NATO ourselves. European countries already have the wealth to produce their own military defense. If they do not have the will, that is their problem. What American officials can do is keep their mouths shut if they don't intend to back up their words.

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About The Author
Thomas Sowell is a senior fellow at the Hoover Institute and author of The Housing Boom and Bust.
 
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I THINK THAT THE RUSSIANS
need to pay a price, though it is obvious that we can't, and won't, go to war over Georgia. However, it does not appear to me that there is anything the Russians can withhold from us. Even though we need their cooperation in foreign affairs, I can't think of a single example when they supported us. Maybe I just haven't been paying attention.

Good Ideas
Yes, if we really don't get any benefit for trying to be the world's cop let's let Europe take the lead and see what they can do. One question: Which european country scares Russia? Who would retaliate if they any european country? Maybe England. That's it.

There has only been one president stand up to Russia and that was President Reagan. He told the world what the soviets really were - the Evil Empire. Was he wrong? And then Reagan backed up his statements by deploying missiles in Europe and investing in the SDI. Does anyone think the Soviets weren't afrad of Reagan?

Obama said Security Council but Russia v
Obama said go to Security Council but Russia has a veto.
So how's he going to get so much as a verbal resolution out of the Security Concil?
I wish repports would have pushed him on that comment. Did he really not know Russia has veto power on the UN Security Council?

Why are we surprised?
We know that the Russians helped the former Iraqi government move their WMD into the Bek'ka Valley before we went into Iraq. We know they supplied the Iraqi Army with night vision equipment while our troops were entering Iraq. We know the Russians are more interested in the oil pipeline than the pro-Russian citizens of South Ossetia and we still play the game. How many promises will we break, how many times will we declare unity with people and then stand by and watch them die? You are correct, Mr. Sowell, why keep talking when our words are nothing more than sounding brass and a tinkling cymbal. Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open our mouths and remove all doubt.

Georga on our mind?
I think Georgia thought we should come running when she sneaked over the line and tried to grab a little more land. I think that was stupid to try against such a big and mean country like Russia. Russia is none too happy with the situation as it was let alone Georgia trying to grab a little more. Russia wanted a pretense and she got one from
Saakashiia and that was a bit stupid on his part.

Hungary 1956 and Georgia today
We said far too much, compared with what we were willing to do, in 1956. We could do the same in the present standoff with Georgia.

I think the worst thing McCain can do is what he seems to doing--rattling sabers. McCain has got the flag wavers, but he seems to be beating a horse which can't run any faster. Same with bringing up his POW past. He's wearing the flag out, and he's losing votes with every wave.

Experience is not what the election is about. McCain must take the paint off Obama's carefully constructed fraudulent image, and he's already late getting started.

Tough talk on Georgia will trap McCain, not elect him.

Well, this is a first.
I don't agree with the ever insightful Dr.

When we leave NATO it collapses. Then we're back to square one by letting Russia (Soviets) back in the mix.

That proposition is just not wise.

Russia, the big bear in the neighborhood
Ronald Reagan beat back Russia when President because he outspent them and exposed them as a paper tiger. Times have changed. Russia has the worlds largest oil reserves and are awash in money. We are going to have a tough time matching them in money this time. Watch out for Poland and other countries that border or are close to Russia. They can exert their might and the wimps in Europe will do nothing, waiting for the U.S. We will have no heart or will to confront Russia this time.

Georgia's lack of planning
The Georgians knew the Russians would come to the "aid" of the Ossetians if the Georgians attacked in force. The Georgians also know the land routes into South Ossetia depend on the Roki Tunnel, much like entrance into Afghanistan from Khazachstan depends on the Salang tunnel. So why were the Georgians unable to cause a great amount of damage to the Russian columns anywhere? no prior planning at the highest levels.

Do things on the cheap: massed rockets (122mm, 140mm) and RPGs in massed fires on road approaches; mines in the more easily traveled off-road areas; snipers to cause problems in columns and go after the logistics vehicles.

The Russian troops didn't cover themselves with glory the way they acted. It was no blitzkrieg or roll into Hungary or a replay of the Baghdad 500. Raise the costs in time delays, casualties, equipment losses and things get sticky on the political end, even if the West does nothing.

As for Hungary, Eisenhower was in the middle of his reelection campaign (fall 1956)and there was no common border with Hungary. Austria had been reunited earlier, but was made a "permanent neutral' as part of the deal. Think what the Russians would/could do if the US liberated Cuba. About the same as we could do for Georgia: not much.

Tonight I spent one hour with the moon
A very rare flower of which a name I do not recall showed itself in full bloom.

Before this year, I thought the bud which drooped like a zucchini flowerette for a short time was an awful disappointment. Then someone informed me that I was missing the event.

For some reason tonight, I remembered. Not really wanting to eject myself from bed, I took a moment to convince myself that tonight could be the night (and wouldn't that be worth it?).

So I scurried down the steps and out the door to my amazement, there she was! Fully opened with layers of plume & and fragrent as nothing I'd ever experienced before.

How precious life truly is. We miss it almost every time.


Cold War II
DR, Sowell is right about one thing here and that is the fact that there is very little that we can do that is substantive. Saying that we need Russia’s aid in stopping Iran from gaining nuclear weapons is like saying we need Russia’s aid in Russia quitting supplying them with nuclear technology. Russia since the advent of Putin has been the old Russia of the cold war. Aiding our enemies, dragging their heals in any international agreement that would benefit U.S. policy, and just generally being a pain in the *ss.

Yes, it seem that they wish to restart the cold war. We should oblige them.

As for NATO, what we should do is withdraw all of our troops from Europe and force them to handle more of their defense themselves. The main reason we can not do anything about this Russian invasion of Georgia is that we have no troops left to send.

The Left
Russia, Venezuela, China, Cuba and American Democrats are all left of center and everything left of center destroys like a cancer. Only when the true peace loving people of the world band together and stop trying to negotiate with "cancer" and kill it, can all the world be free.

Georgia on our Mind
The main reason(s) we do not send troops re Georgia is we do NOT have a willing mind AND are too light in the behind, bro Vic, the first reason being the overwhelming consideration. We have shot our wad for this "time" in our history re military adventures. The advice to Shut up by Thomas is quite germane, I think, always a good idea besides. It will take another little "boost" that will vastly eclipse 9/11 to get things going.

So how far do you let it go?
The question we need to ask is how far we allow the Russian soldiers to go. If Georgia is only the first conquest, a likely scenario, what nation will be next? My guess would be Ukraine or Poland. Perhaps the Slavic states will fall after that... then Germany? France? Italy and Spain?

Where will Russia draw the line? Where will we? While it is an unpleasant thought, the European theater has seen this sort of thing before - and human nature being what it is, and dictators being who they are, it is likely the European theater will again see invasion, war and bloodshed.

And why stop (or even start) with Europe when Russia could conquer us by taking over the Middle East and their oil fields? If you think they wouldn't or couldn't, it only requires someone willing to commit mass murder through the use of tactical nukes... something our dear 'friends' in Russia may be willing to do.

So the questions for the United States are "Where do we draw the line? How much is too much? When do we act?"

BS
I am reading an awful lot of rationalizing by people who should know better. The "Georgia Caused It" or "We caused it by championing NATO Membership" is BS of the worst sort.

History is replete with examples of this situation where some unfortunate small country has "nearby enemies and distant allies". The result is generally exactly what we see here. The smaller country gets invaded by its nearby enemy while its distant allies find themselves unwilling or unable to intervene.

Oh,Yes-the rationalizations against intervention being posted here is almost always seen too


NATO
I wish we would pull out of NATO. Pull out of the United Nations and give them two years to locate it's headquarters somewhere else. Bring our 40,000 troups and equipment back from Germany. Get our troops out of South Korea and all the other locations. This isn't "isolationism" it is common sense. Who do we think we are anyway? We blew away the opportunity to work with Russia because of our smukness.

I love my country, but I sure in hell do not love what my government is doing all around the world.

Pathetic NATO
NATO was organized to counter the Warsaw pact and it has outlived it's original purpose almost two decades before. NATO clerks have since been desperately seeking a justification for their existence. The "Gang-Bang" os Serbia was, for the most part, such a "test".
Yet this "test" still hasn't justified it's existence. Europe has 350 million rich people, it's time they get weened off the USA teats and invest their own blood and treasure towards their defense. We should have started a pull-out from NATO a long time ago. If we stay, they will get us involved into a shooting war with Russia on behalf of their energy interests. We should mind our own business and start drilling here and now!

Nellie
You are off topic but with the justification its a nice break to read of someone's pleasant experience. I have a Devil's Trumpet plant in my yard which has stunning blossoms, but only blooms at night.

Egon
Georgia is a European problem. If they are worried about Georgia, let them take the risk to commit their military might. After all, they are NATO members and don't need us to unite and take action under its auspices. Once those most threatened take action, we might well support their efforts with air power or the like. After the due consideration, and to the same level as the NATO members support us.

Great analysis from Sowell.
"Our butting into things that are none of our business has taken the form of actions as well as words. Extending NATO right up to the borders of Russia has been one of those feel-good actions, much like our feel-good moralizing to other countries".

"Sometimes we have sounded like the world's nanny".

So says Thomas Sowell.

And I agree.

This messianic fixation...this moralizing to other countries, and thinking we are the world's nanny, is the foreign equivalent of leftist intrusive government on domestic affairs.

And socalled "righties" are not to be confused with genuine conservatives on this issue.

For this moral preening, this messianic fixation and nanny-state mentality in arrogating unto ourselves the right to intrude into the affairs of others, whether in foreign or domestic affairs, is odious to genuine conservatives.

But it is right up the ally of chicken hawk neocons.

I am sure Thomas Sowell is going to get alot of negative email from the chicken hawks for this piece, but Sowell is right.


Pistol
You must be joking.."to the same level as the NATO members support us.." well, if Afghanistan is any measure of this, then yes, we should send some clerks to help in their bookeeping but NO combat support.

Georgia
I cannot fathom how a country that is generally recognized as sovereign and its political boundaries recognized internationally by all but a few can be considered to "antagonize" another nation by militarily acting within the confines of its own aforementioned legal borders.

60% percent of all Ossetians hold Russian citizenship. Russia uses this as pretext for both their continued involvement in the affairs of another country and as reason for a counter-invasion. This is akin to Mexico invading the Southwestern US and justifying it by citing that a large minority holds Mexican citizenship.

Bingo!
You hit the nail right on the head again, Dr. Sowell. Thanks.

Leave it alone.
If Brazil invaded Argentina and Russia went to war against Brazil how would America feel about that?
We would tell Russia to get the hell out the Americas and go mind your own business.

So why do we feel we have the right, even the obligation, to get involved with conflicts half a world away?

England's war guarantee to Poland caused World War II. Why are we passing out NATO war guarantees?
If we really are concerned about human suffering let's go invade the Sudan, let's invade Burma, let's invade Iraq. Wait, we are already there.
The point is we can't go invading every country that was a war going on or where there is government sponsored terrorism against it's own citizens or that of neighboring countries.

kudos, Dr. Sowell
As USA foreign policy I suggest: (1) We cannot and ought not try to be the world's 9-1-1. (2) Quit the UN and deport it. (If we were going to offer suggestion -- but, we'd be smart enough to not do so -- we'd recommend locating it in Haiti.) (3) Quit NATO. (4) Expand our ability to deploy troops and material rapidly while bringing home those now in Europe and Asia. (5) Protect and secure our borders. (6) Ally only to increase OUR national security. (7) Trade freely.

We are in deep doodoo for the next 4
years no matter who wins, we are the losers. Obama is a communist and McCain is an idiot that makes W look like a genius. Well, perhaps the global conflict that is sure to erupt soon will force us to fight those that would have us surrender to any and all comers and rediscover the America that our founders fought and died for. It will not be pretty, nice, or easy, but it may be the only way to preserve humanity.

Evil in the World
What can the West do to punish Russia, obviously nothing meaningful will happen as the article sites. We live in a world where Evil exists and we better wake up and take notice and get ready to defeat it like John McCain stated at the recent forum in California. Its been almost 7 Years since the Holocaust of September 11th and it feels like the People in this country have already forgotten about it. The MSM never wants to show the Videos of the Twin towers collapsing, but will report every bit of bad news coming out of Iraq and Afghanistan and do their utmost to avoid any Good news. This is Treasonous. Barack Hussien Obama if elected would never go to war ever, he has stated as much and that scares the Hell out me. Anyone who wants to be the President of this Country better not have any Illusions about what sort of World we live in. Mr. Obama just does posses the wisdom formed from Years of life experiences that John McCain has. We're living in very dangerous times and its not because of anything that the United States has done. On the whole the United States does far more Good around the World than any other 10 Countries combined and if you doubt this, then ask your self why do so many people from around the world want to be here in the United States???

US credibility isn't worth squat

Right after the Russians invaded Georgia and the West most notably the United States did nothing but offer lip service and a few blankets to placate the Georgians, I kept asking myself, "We publicly claim to be allied with Georgia, but we have done nothing to back up this claim."
Georgia is part of the old world and when someone from the outside comes in and says that they are an ally, Georgians don't need any fancy politicking, your word is your bond, period.
Now that the West has hung Georgia out to dry, our reputation has been irrevocably damaged. They will never believe us again no matter how much we swear to support them.
Georgians don't need Joe Biden to get off an aid flight with his Aviators glasses and striking a, "I'm the man pose." They need us to stop the Russians in their tracks.

Evil in the world
Correction - Mr. obama just does not posses the wisdom formed from Years of life experiences that john McCain has.

today's collum
Interesting; I've been saying the same thing for years; after l989 why do we need NATO ?. Also, by bringing all those eastern european countries into NATO, but excluding Russia, we were bound to creat future ( now ) enmity. Now we're dealiong withn a wealthy Russia, not a bankrupt one. warren Nickerson

good for goose/good for the gander.
South Ossetia fought a two year bloody civil war against Georgia(1991-1992), with the result being an autonomous region wherein a U.N.-brokered agreement in 1994 allowed for Russian and Georgian troops to maintain the fragile peace.

Not quite the same thing as our southern border.

It was Georgia who attacked some of these(Russian)troops in south Ossetia.

Now, I am no fan of the U.N.

But Bush sure had no problem utilizing the imprimatur of the U.N. when it came to "justifying" the war on Iraq(violations of U.N. resolutions).

So Russia has as much right to defend its troops in south Ossetia(sent there due to a U.N. mandate), as Bush had in going to war in Iraq based largely upon violations of U.N. resolutions.

That being said, Russia had a somewhat intemperate response(tho it is not like we didn't provoke her with military installations and pushing NATO right up to her border)...but it was Georgia who started this thing and which overplayed its hand.

Some neocons won't be happy unless we have a new Cold War.

NATO:
"nothing is more essential than that permanent, inveterate antipathies against particular nations, and passionate attachments for others, should be excluded; and that, in place of them, just and amicable feelings towards all should be cultivated"

"The great rule of conduct for us in regard to foreign nations is in extending our commercial relations, to have with them as little political connection as possible. "

George Washington, "Washington's Farewell Address" 1796

NATO was formed to oppose the Warsaw Pact. It has succeded and should now be disbanded. And we REALLY SHOULD listen to everything Washington said in his Address.

This is NOT 1956
Several things are different now.

Russia is not really a super power anymore.

It has nukes; but, so do lots of countries.

We don't need their help at the UN with regard to Iran; because, at some point we will probably have to go in, out of self-defense; and, the UN charter already allows for that. Help with sanctions will act as good will gestures on their part; but, ultimately Iran has shown it will ignore all sanctions anyway.

Russia's cooperation on the war-on-terror has been spotty at best. If we want that to change we need to prove to them that we won't back down. More importantly, they need us more than we need them.

Like most dictators, the only thing Vlad will respond to is strength.

If we back down, the world will back down. If we stand up, the world will stand up.
We have "humanitarian aid" solders on the ground. Did that happen in 56? No? mmm

So far, all the things Bush as threatened to do are things we can do. I don't believe he as made any promises we can't keep.

It may well be that Russia is stalling to see if we will keep our word.

If that is the case, then we must. I think GWB knows this.

Bush has not threatened economic sanctions. He knows it would be the EU who would have to bare the brunt of that sort of thing. He won't ask it of them unless there is no other way.

I think Vlad will leave Georgia (most of it anyway). I suspect he will try to stay in the two "breakaway" provinces. The peace accord with Georgia give him permission for that.

Whoever the next president is may have to continue to refuse Russia membership in things like the G8 until such time as they leave Georgia all together. That part may take awhile.

The price of freedom
"So why do we feel we have the right, even the obligation, to get involved with conflicts half a world away?"

One writer asks this question. It is a valid question. I will defer to the words of an English Parliamentarian: "The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing"

The Russians have us over a barrel, literally and figuratively. We have a energy policy that is a disaster in the making. We are not there yet but we are working hard to create that disaster. We are also involved with fighting an enemy that has no borders. It has no nation state to clearly identify. Our enemy has wrapped itself in the mantle of religion.

Are we prepared to stand up to Russia and risk alienating them and risk losing their help ? I don't think so. It is what should be done, but that takes a strong will. Right now America as a country lacks that will. We are afraid of losing. We have lost the winning attitude.

Diplomacy has no value unless it is backed up by strength. Words have no meaning unless they are backed up by action. I remember as a young man a president who in his inaugural address stated:

"Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, in order to assure the survival and the success of liberty."

That attitude if it exists today cowers in the face of poll numbers and focus groups.

If America will not do the job no one else will. That is reality. Freedom is not free. It never has been. It never will be.

Tibby

It Cuts Both Ways
We have depended on help from foreign nations before, and we WILL need their help again sooner or later. Pulling out when they need us more than we need them is short-sighted. Imagine a "Pearl Harbor" attack in a world of nuclear states allied with terrorists.

Excellent article!
NATO is a eunuch and anyone depending on it to "solve" this sort of aggression will see hell freeze over. Use them and we will be doing "nothing".

Hopefully, the invasion and destruction within Georgia will put a fire under the free world. I am not sure of what they can do as I am neither a political leader or in the military. But I truly believe that the result of doing absolutely nothing will be that we will watch the Ukraine, Poland and more being gobbled up under Putin's leadership. Worse yet, I think that Israel will go up in smoke.

We need McCain's leadership more than ever. He has the experience that comes with time and the circumstances offered in life. Who else has spent 5 years as a POW and has served his country in government for so many years? It certainly isn't Obama.

NATO
Leaving NATO is not the answer, but becoming a minority stake holder in NATO is viable position for us to take.

Pay our fair share and supply only our fair share of the troops and material is the way to make the point we are there only to help those that help themselves.

Georgia, NATO, and US Responsibility
I agree completely with Dr. Sowell's commentary. For what its worth I have posted a "blog" on the same subject pointing out the problem with the unconditional support NATO requires, in theory, from its members. Please type


"Law of the Bad Premise" into google and hit connect to the "Townhall" blog for my commentary

Mike Rulle

Also
"Are we really prepared to go to war with Russia if they send troops into Latvia, a NATO member next door to them and thousands of miles away from us? "

Yes we are. Our troops could crush Russia's like an aluminum can.

Our jets can shoot more accurately from further away than the Russians; and, we can stay in the air much longer.
We can wipe out whole Tank battalions from the air, easily (we did that in Iraq).

All out war in Georgia would destroy it. The measured approach we are taking now is probably better than that would be.

Still, if Russia starts trying to come up with pretexts to go into other countries, we should probably put large NATO contingents into them as a precaution. Overwhelming force is the surest way to prevent naked aggression.

The real reason Russia has a problem with Poland having a missile defense system is that it will make them much harder to invade.

I am now of the opinion that if it pisses Vlad and fiends off, it's probably a good idea.

Us being afraid of Russia would be like a polar bear being afraid of an ally cat.

sorry to repeat
Just click on Law of the Bad Premise above for my commentary on Gergia

Where is my Post?
I am still waiting to see my post...30" now

Georgid on my mind
Amen! Amen! We need to build our country so strong that nobody will mess with us. Let Europe take care of themselves. Were always stepping forward and then Europe spits in our face.

Democracy & Freedom
What is the nature of an individual who would allow a woman beaten into the street to lay there without confrontation of the husband's behavior.

Freedom, Democracy, Choice, Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. These are the foundations of this nation and its Democracy.

Every Democracy throughout this world ought be standing with Georgia in rebuke to Russia.

If Russia thinks itself bully enough to one nation, then who will be next?

You think this cannot happen? Then your abilities of observation, not words, are in need of serious realignment.

What kind of an American, a human being, are you that would sit by and allow someone to be beaten in the street while you do nothing.

What you're doing is so loud no one can hear what you're saying.

America has an accountability as a responsible nation to act, not only in the interest of Georgia and its Democracy, but in its own self-interest and precepts, and to all fledgling Democracies, to beat down the bullies in the neighborhood so that everyone else can live free.

Who is coward enough to argue this responsibility?

Let that person step forward and reveal his or her contempt for our nation and its foundations.

Let this individual reveal him or her self to the world about the nature of who he or she is in this life.

Let this person reveal that freedom & choice are not priority.

Let this person show his or her ANTI-AMERICAN self.

Excellent article!

NATO is a eunuch and anyone waiting for them to do something is wasting their time.

Russia will probably carry out its intentions whether we roar or not. My question is, what happens if Russia takes down the Ukraine, Poland, and, for fun, obliterates Israel.

We need John McCain as our next president. He has the experience that is needed.

Hole in the Logic
"Some people seem to think that, if we had already included Georgia in NATO, Russia would not have attacked. But what if they attacked anyway? Would we have done any more than we are doing now?"

The ever pragmatic Russians have only been agressive when it is not likely to cost them more than they are willing to pay. A war with NATO certainly tips the scales away from Russian incursion, while condemnation from apathetic or over extended Western nations obviously does not.

The Russians would then have to bet that NATO would not act to save one of its member nations. Were NATO to ignore an attack on one of their members it would instantly dissolve the organization. Could any of NATO's member nations afford to let that happen in the face of an aggressive Russia? Perhaps a few myopic Western European countries may weigh the cost of action against Russia and decline, but others would more likely understand the long term implications of inaction. In the end, NATO may be shaken, but it would hold together, and likely prevent a confrontation with Russia simply by being a credible threat.

Some people are questioning the necessity of NATO since the dissolution of the U.S.S.R. However, such questions, while debatable earlier, seem rather foolish to ask in light of Russia's recent move.

I do agree with Dr. Sowell on one point though. We (the U.S. and NATO) are ill prepared to back up our talk. We all need to rapidly increase our preparedness in the wake of recent events.

Georgis Sweet Georgia Part II,,,,,,,,,,,
ROYEE
Location: MI
Reply # 1
Date: Aug 19, 2008 - 10:07 AM EST Subject: Georgid on my mind
Amen! Amen! We need to build our country so strong that nobody will mess with us. Let Europe take care of themselves. Were always stepping forward and then Europe spits in our face.
...............................................
I agree in part with what you say, but to leave Europe to Defend its self is a bit Isolationist and wrong.
Europe is our Allies, even if we do not agree on everything. It is important that the EU stand firm with us and tell Russia you cannot say it was wrong for the US to invade Iraq and Aid Afghanistan and then say its okay for you.
I know that they okayed or rather said nothing about either but that is the gist.

Our attack in Iraq was just like Russia's in Chechyna and now. World comdenation must accompany any response from US. That is why we need to keep the White House and keep America Strong.

Georgia
Believe it! A friend who does biz with Russia claimed contraire to media reports, poor little Russia had to activate in retaliation to Georgia’s first step aggression.
To this I say, “Oh really. Georgia the aggressor? Kind of like an ant crawling up an elephants leg with rape on its mind.”
In thinking more on this, this cowgirl now adds: “Russia’s actions are akin to one putting on their chaps and spurs, simply to go out and gather the dairy cows.”
Good grief!

Yo Butcher
Iraq and Chechnya were completely different in their context. You really need to look into the reasons Russia went into Chechnya. Also, it is insulting to our own military's treatment of the Iraqi people during this theater of the WOT to compare with the Russian's incredible brutality of the Chechen people.

We cannot base our response on What ifs.
Kevin
Location: GA
Reply # 52
Date: Aug 19, 2008 - 10:19 AM EST Subject: Hole in the Logic
"Some people seem to think that, if we had already included Georgia in NATO, Russia would not have attacked. But what if they attacked anyway? Would we have done any more than we are doing now?"
................................................
What if the sky fell down, what if the world turned purple, What ifs are just that what if nothings.

Georgia is not a Nato Member but she was going to sell Oil, NG and other Petroleum Products to Europe and the US via a Trans Caucaus Pipe line which by-passed Russia. Nyet. Russia does not like it or will allow it if they can.

A Redlac from CA says Turkey is not our Ally and refused to allow the 4th INF to attack Iraq from the North, that was different. Turkey has odds with the Kurds of Northern Iraq and Western Turkey.

EU must see that this is a prelude to more Putin idealology and stop him in his tracks before he gets out of hand. Remember the Black Sea is an International Water Way, Not Russia's pond. Keruschev sent Missiles to Cuba, and did not stop until we sent out the Navy. EU sends supplies with Ukraine escorts, does Russia challenge and start WWIII or do they back down.

AND THEN THERE'S TEXAS HOLD 'EM

.....Card players know that when you bite off more than you can chew ...when you let your mouth overload your a** ...then the only option left is the Bluff ...the scenario would go like this:

...POTUS ...Mr. Putin, America has one thousand nuclear tipped warheads pointed at your country, if you don't pull out of Georgia I will give the order to fire those missles ...

...PUTIN ...If you try that I will order a counter attack that will destroy America ...

...POTUS ...Oh well! ...we all have to die sometime ...

...At this point PUTIN believes that he is dealing with a deranged madman ...does he call the bluff? .....COLOSSUS

Ah Another USC grad.....................
Ralph
Location: CA
Reply # 56
Date: Aug 19, 2008 - 10:36 AM EST Subject: Yo Butcher
Iraq and Chechnya were completely different in their context. You really need to look into the reasons Russia went into Chechnya.
...............................................
I know why Russia went into Chechnya and why we went into Iraq. What you need to reallize is that to a dictator like Putin 1+1=3 or 4. They do not kook at what is with rational eyes, they see simmilarities and say if they can we can. Period.

Chechnya was at first a want to be breakaway provence, Putin said `Nyet' enough of Russia breaking up!' Yes he said that, Russia to him is the old Imperial/CCCP Russia. Borders with POland the Baltics, Rummania and Turkey.

A major power that was to be reckoned with, because she could out number you. Yet why does it have less respect than Switzerland, Portugal or Denmark.

Because bullies have no respect and right now that is how the rest of the world sees America, as a bully, not as an Allie.

Don't provoke the Bear
I love Dr. Sowell, but no article on the South Ossetian War should be considered complete unless it mentions that 94% of South Ossetians voted for independence from Georgia, that they have sought international recognition, and that Georgia moved into South Ossetia first.

We cannot simplistically state that this is an act of agression by Russia against a peaceful nation. This is a complicated matter involving a conflict between two distinct people groups. Russia has a REAL vested interest in this region. We do not. We have ties to an arguably corrupt president of Georgia who thinks that US Dollars and support from the CIA means that you can provoke a conrontation with THE superpower of Eurasia.

We are already engaged in two wars where we fired the first shot (which I support), and we supported Israel's bombardment of Lebanon. We are in no position to moralize Russia's engagement in South Ossetia.

Limits of Soft Power
The Joffrey Ballet used to do a funny number about diplomats cwalled The Green Table. Somehow, shuttle diplomacy doesn't move Russian tanks. Obviously, pacifist Europe is vulnerable ro a big bear. Just because there are no bears in their manicured forests doesn't mean that history is over.
Obviously they need to build an effective deterrant military and Sarcozy is for it. Why not start by freeing NATO from the party circ uit in Brussels by moving the headquarters to Prague or Warsa, instead.
The international community is not doing anyone a service by pretending that countries that cannot defend themselves are viable. I think the self determination doctrine of Woodrow Wilson is going too far. WE are just creating predictable problems for the future with nonsense like independant Kosovo or Palesatine. Such weak actors need to forge alliances.
Finally, obviously Geporgia is not Israel which would have whooped the Russians pronto. The Georgian army ran.

We cant help Saakashvili right now...
This guy needs to chill out. He should not have began the offensive in Ossetia, without a back-up plan. Did he think he was capable of taking over these provinces without a Russian response? Seeing him run to safety was all too sad, he definitely wet himself.


Why should we help him at this point in time? He offers us nothing, and is a greasy politician at best accounts.

It is not our time for this engagement.

scooternyc
I have a couple of quotations for you before you go off to the nearest army recruiting center and enlist to be sent to the Eastern front to fight those bad ol' Russians on behalf of Georgia.

1. "So likewise, a passionate attachment of one Nation for another produces a variety of evils. Sympathy for the favorite Nation, facilitating the illusion of an imaginary common interest..."

From George Washington's Farewell Address to the American People.


2. "America does not go abroad in search of monsters to destroy. She is the well-wisher to freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own."

John Quincy Adams.

Not Sowell's Best
This is the first time I have ever seen Sowell make a misstep. His conclusion: "If anything, we ought to be thinking about pulling out of NATO ourselves. European countries already have the wealth to produce their own military defense. If they do not have the will, that is their problem." represents at best, stage two thinking [per Sowell's own standard].

Unfortunately, it would soon become OUR problem ... but only after it had escalated to a much worse problem ... like the belated reaction to Hitler's invasions! We wouldn't be whining about 4,000 lives lost then ... it would be millions!

Oil on my mind
Putin (once KGB always KGB) and his show of power should serve to emphasize how important it is for us to free ourselves from dependence on foreign oil. Russia can act with impunity because of her oil. But we don't have to play her game if we'd resurrect our old-time self-reliance and use our own resources. Dependence on oil-producing nations simply hamstrings the nations needed someone else's oil. Wake up, America...delvelop and use what we have...NOW!

housewar
No international power aside from Russia recognized that 94% "majority" that voted for S Ossetian independence. The referendum was highly controversial, and a counter-referendum was held in pro-Georgia areas of S Ossetia that produced opposite results.

The situation is infinitely more complicated than most commentators (including Dr. Sowell) are willing to treat it. However, it is fairly obvious that Russia takes much of the credit for escalating the conflict (via its invasion of Georgia proper, effectively taken the armed conflict into non-contested regions).

Hungary 1956
I lost relatives in Hungary in 1956. What the Hungarians were asking for then were supplies so they could continue the fight against the USSR. The same type of help we gave Berlin.

We could not see fit to do that because it was an internal problem for the USSR. We also prevented private groups from doing the same for fear of the USSR.

Russia is not the USSR. It has no claim to Georgia anymore than Mexico has claim to the US because it has a lot of citizens living here. What Georgia does within her own borders should be her problem, just as the War Between the States was ours.

Once started, the cause of war is of no consequence. The war takes on a life of its own to win or lose.

There is one thing that could be done to slow the Russian Bear; not attacking the tanks, not posting troops but destroying their one source of revenue the oil pipelines. While this will put Europe at a hardship, it would deny funds to Russia for a long time.

I do not claim that this would be a good idea, but would be effective.

As to NATO, that has been a paper tiger for years. The original NATO was much like the UN Security Council where nations were members without means. Now that those nations have means, they no longer aspire to be part of the US philosophy.

I think that we should be like parents who have grown children and cut the ties and be empty nesters. Available for help in times of dire need but mostly let the children run their own lives.

Re: Trueconservative
I would disagree with your point about pulling out of NATO. Primarily because NATO came into being to oppose the Warsaw Pact countries namely the Soviet Union. And it would appear that the bear has been resurrected so NATO now has a function again. The issue here is do the American people have the integrity to honor our agreements. Sadly, given the party in charge of Congress completely lacks any visible sign of integrity and they control the purse strings I would have to say it's extremely dubious.

Given that when Republicans were in charge they started out great but then devolved into Democrats I'm not sure just voting out the Democrats would solve our problem either. Basically, both parties have demonstrated that they lack the ability to run this country with courage, honesty and integrity. I would hope that there will come a party that does express those values but sadly it's not this election nor likely to be next election.

So Georgia will fall to communist domination followed by others including Poland. And San Fran Nan will have her communist state back so she can be happy....may be we can export her, Reid and Carter as triple ambassadors to the Russian communist empire.

Georgia - are we out of our minds
It appears that the Cyclist has forgotten that Truman started our policy of containment of Soviet power after the war and every President after him followed it, including Reagan. If Cyclist is interested in ancient history, he should read up on the early 1960's, when Kennedy went toe to toe over Soviet missiles in Cuba that were a clear threat to our security. Bravo for St. Reagan getting the timing right to be in the White House when the Soviets started to unravel after 70 years of cold war and their own mismanagement and corruption. When you win the race because the other guy trips, you should be little humble in victory. And the last guy in the relay race doesn't get to claim all the victory for himself.
Stalin put Ossetia in Georgia for reasons known only to him, a Georgian. Probably wanted to stick it to a rival from Ossetia, or make Georgia richer. Georgia started the recent fracas by sending troops into Ossetia without provocation and shooting civilians. Russia claims it was defending its citizens in Ossetia. This isn't a war we need to care about, but if we do we need to figure out why we back the country that started it. Britain and France were smart enough to stay out of our civil war, let's be smart enough to stay out of Georgia's. The Ossetians want to be part of Russia. We may think they're all insane, but let's let it be up to them, and not us.

Excellent article!

NATO is a eunuch and anyone waiting for them to do something is wasting their time.

Russia will probably carry out its intentions whether we roar or not. My question is, what happens if Russia takes down the Ukraine, Poland, and, for fun, obliterates Israel.

We need John McCain as our next president. He has the experience that is needed.

Had the exact same thought
While listening to all the pronouncements from politicians about this I was thinking about the Teddy Roosevelt walk softly and carry a big stick line. We should only include countries in NATO that we would actually be willing to go to war for. I couldn't tell you who was to blame in the Russia/Georgia conflict and frankly I don't really care. It wouldn't surprise many of us for Russia to do that sort of thing because they wanted to, this doesn't mean that this is what is going on though.

If you talk, talk, talk about everything, condemn things left and right but never DO anything then your words are empty. If you have a more measured approach and you rarely speak, but when you do you mean it and back it up with the full force of the powers that you command then you will be respected. That is the real problem we have atm, we are the lone superpower, but we are full of hotair. We denounce this and that and do diddly squat. We should keep our mouth shut unless something is actually worth doing something about, if it is then we say so and DO so.

my ancient opinion

As with most of my advice, it required implementation years ago, but is that because I am an old man, or because I am elderly and wise.

When the United Nations was founded I hoped their main function would be to determine hard and firm borders for countries, and enforce those borders.

I twice visited the UN Hq in Flushing Meadows in 1950, and asked that all immigration be stopped world-wide, and be replaced with Invitation. If you applied, and a nation ask you to come, you could, otherwise stay where you are and try to improve your home.

I said years ago that we should bring our troops home from the 100 stations in Germany alone, and the 100 other countries where they are stationed. In the 1980s, I met a four-Star General while visiting Germany, and amazingly enough, he agree with me.

Put them on our borders and make sure an uninvited does not come in, and deport all those who do not respect our border and our culture.

If by example we could show the rest of the world that this is the way to live, all would be better, in my ancient opinion.

my ancient opinion

As with most of my advice, it required implementation years ago, but is that because I am an old man, or because I am elderly and wise.

When the United Nations was founded I hoped their main function would be to determine hard and firm borders for countries, and enforce those borders.

I twice visited the UN Hq in Flushing Meadows in 1950, and asked that all immigration be stopped world-wide, and be replaced with Invitation. If you applied, and a nation ask you to come, you could, otherwise stay where you are and try to improve your home.

I said years ago that we should bring our troops home from the 100 stations in Germany alone, and the 100 other countries where they are stationed. In the 1980s, I met a four-Star General while visiting Germany, and amazingly enough, he agree with me.

Put them on our borders and make sure an uninvited does not come in, and deport all those who do not respect our border and our culture.

If by example we could show the rest of the world that this is the way to live, all would be better, in my ancient opinion.

sad but true.
Is the U.S. military to be sacrificed so that Israel or Georgia exists?

Only a fool would so assert.

We need to make a calculated, rational judgment on what constitutes our security interests.

And moronic musings by Bush, such as: "The survival of liberty in our land increasingly depends on the success of liberty in other lands", IS the problem.

For if that is the case, Mr. President, why not send our marines to liberate from oppression the citizens of Georgia, Darfur, or China?

Oh, we pick and choose whom to liberate, depending upon "conditions".

I see.

Utter crap.

The Reagan legacy of ending the Cold War, with its potential of ushering in a new relationship with our former adversaries, has been undone by G.W. Bush, whose crusade to extend NATO right into the face of Russia has caused Putin to think his nation is under siege, surrounded by states dedicated to a relic from the Cold War....which in fact is creating a new Cold War.

"Mission Accomplished", Mr. President!

I don't pretend to have answers
but I would like to ask a question.

What if all these countries around the world, even long standing democracies in Europe, really DON'T have the will or capacity to defend themselves? What if they fall to totalitarian governments? What if America ends up being the only free country on the planet? Would we stand much of a chance of remaining free?

Now, as with Hitler's Germany, if the rest of the world falls into the hands of dictators or religious fanatics, there will be no one but us to defend our land against the rest of the world.

That should sober up anyone thinking we can pretend we are Switzerland.

Environmentalists? - what about druggies
Wyomingite thinks that environmentalists have sapped our national strength? I didn't realize that Reagan and Bush are environmentalists. Wasn't it St. Reagan who moved us to an all-volunteer Army and no draft? Wasn't it St. Bush who has overextended our military resources and depleted our reserves so that we can't deal with problems elsewhere, or even defend our territory from a foreign attack? Bush has exposed our dirty secret: We don't have the military forces to engage in a major war. The whole world knows it, but we choose to ignore it. We certainly aren't in a position to aid Georgia, nor is there any reason to, except that old Cold Warriors feel cheated because we didn't bomb the Soviets out of existence and they want their grandchildren to put those old uniforms on again and have a real shootin' war.
Blessed are the peacemakers . . .

Solution
Bring back the DRAFT and build our MILITARY back to the strength it was before BILL(THE SCUD MEISTER) CLINTOON cut our military in half to cut the DEFICET.

We cannot stop any foreign power from doing anything they want when we as a NATION are devided so badly. Half of our country wants us to LOSE in IRAQ and the OTHER half wants us to WIN in IRAQ. When has it ever been that America wants to lose at anything, just look at the Olympics. We have lost our way and we will soon be other foriegn powers B!TCH soon because we have half this country who thinks that we are the BIG EVIL EMPIRE and should be put in our place.

Oh how we have forgotten 9/11. we will become a
defeated country one day mark my word. God Bless this country becuase no one else will.

Stylistic and grammatical comments
Stylistic and grammatical comments for smoother reading and better comprehension:
Par. 4: What is the antecedent of the two "they"?
Par. 5: Comma after "it".
Par. 6 & 7: Obama's position is the subject of both paragraphs, so they should be merged.
Par. 8 & 9: "Problems" is the topic of both, so the paragraphs should be merged.
Par. 10: "Problems" in this paragraph differ from those in the previous, so use another word.
Par. 12: Yet another "problem" but the same word.
Par. 13 & 14: the progressive tense is inappropriate: "comment" and "criticize" are inherently durative.
Par. 15 & 16: "Our" repeated unnecessarily.


I don't either.
If democracies around the world lack the will to protect and save themselves, then that in itself is an exercise in democratic governance, as odious as we may think it is.

They have chosen.

We in our Blessed Republic can no more compel citizens in other lands to act in a manner we deem to be responsible, than we can compel citizens in our own Republic to act in such a manner.

And were we to attempt to do so, it would simply embody the nanny-state mentality, whether applied domestically or on foreign affairs.

We are not the world's savior.

And I hasten to add it is a bit arrogant to think or imply citizens around the world are so clueless as to be unable to realize what is in their self interest...what is worth fighting for, and that we therefore must fight for them.

History repeats itself
The old version said:

"First they came for the Communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.
"Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.
"Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.
"Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant.
"Then they came for me, and by that time no one was left to speak up."
Regular readers of this paper, and many more besides, are familiar with this little poem. The author was Martin Niemöller, a German pastor imprisoned by Hitler from 1937 to 1945.
In 5 years we may say:
"First they came for the Georgians, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Georgian.
"Then they came for the Poles, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Pol.
"Then they came for the Slavic Nations, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't Slav.
"Then they came for the NATO, and I didn't speak up because I quit NATO because they said they didn’t like me.
"Then they came for me, and by that time no one was left to speak up."

If we are to be a force for good in the world, then we have to stand up to evil whenever and wherever it raises its head. That is the lesson that Ronald Regan tried to teach us. Obviously even conservatives didn’t learn. I cry for conservatism lost in the world.

Sowell, what happened to you?
"What is happening in the republic of Georgia is all too reminiscent of what happened back in 1956, when Russian tanks rolled into Hungary"

For heavens sakes.

Talk about screwing up a good chunk of your credibility Sowell.

Both regions in the disputed area voted overwhelmingly for separation from Georgia and had welcomed Russian troops as protectors from the Georgian military.

Did Hungary welcome Soviet troops Sowell?

David
No it was ST CLINTOON who cut our military in half to cut the deficet and make his party think he was doing an outstanding job while he was SCUDDING MONICA.

Or was it ST CLINTOON who sold our Nucleur SUB Technology to China, or was it ST CLINTOON and Madeline Albright doing the JIGGY with KIM IL SONG N KOREA and handing them the Nucleur technology on a hand shake.

David dont give me that crap about defending our territory from others its becuase of LIBS hating our military today why allot of this has happ-ened. If I was a foreign power and I had half of America on my side what do you think I would do. INVADE NOW becuase we know just by LIBS comments on here that you would surrender and then blame BUSH, hell some of you would probably join the foreign country that invades us just to get BUSH out of the white house.

Or was it ST CLINTOON who had several oportunities to take out OSAMA BIN LADEN but didnt have the time to leave the GOLF COURSE to give the CIA their orders to take him down before he went to see ST MONICA for his SCUDDING ORDERS

We can sit here and put blame on everyone involved but what good does that do to prevent another WORLD WAR?

Stylistic and grammatical comments
Stylistic and grammatical comments for smoother reading and better comprehension:
Par. 4: What is the antecedent of the two "they"?
Par. 5: Comma after "it".
Par. 6 & 7: Obama's position is the subject of both paragraphs, so they should be merged.
Par. 8 & 9: "Problems" is the topic of both, so the paragraphs should be merged.
Par. 10: "Problems" in this paragraph differ from those in the previous, so use another word.
Par. 12: Yet another "problem" but the same word.
Par. 13 & 14: the progressive tense is inappropriate: "comment" and "criticize" are inherently durative.
Par. 15 & 16: "Our" repeated unnecessarily.


Rick
Ronald Reagan negotiated with the Soviets.

He did not refuse to deal with them, like for instance Bush for most of his tenure has done regarding Iran.

Reagan managed to bring about the dissolution of the USSR, with alot of help from Pope John Paul and the labor movement in Poland, plus some help from the Saudis in flooding the world with oil and thereby driving down oil prices which the Soviets used to fund insurgency movements in the 3rd world.

What Bush has done is to undo Reagan's legacy.

Reagan: End of Cold War.

G.W. Bush: Resurrection of Cold War.

If you are so enamored of your rhetoric, no one is preventing you from enlisting in our armed services and hoping for the day you can take on the Russian bear.

Jerabab
Is the U.S. Military to be sacrificed so that Israel or Goergia exist.


WOW it is so heartfilling to see a LIB comment about our Millitary when all LIBS ever do is talk about how our Military are murderers and thugs,and baby killers. so why would you care if our miltary was sacrificed becuase I sure as HELL didnt here LIBS screaming when ST CLINTOON gutted our military.

Oh I forgot BUSH is the ENEMY/TERRORIST.

Please LIBS dont come on here now and talk CRAP about our poor military when all you have done during this Iraq War is bad mouth them.

FRED
Im a 22yr vet and I watched your ST CLINTOON dismantle our whole MILTARY just to make you LIBS happy that he could cut the deicet so please dont spout BS UNLESS YOU KNOW THE FACTS.

Cop of the world?
ScooterNVC [Democracy and Freedom #48] should remind us when the world appointed the US its policeman. And if we are the policemen of the world, why haven't we made any arrests in Burma, Darfur, Zimbabwe, Haiti, Uabekistan, and other places where "husbands are beating their wives in the street?" Seems like a lot of dereliction of duty, even before Georgia.

The DRAFT
ended long long before Reagan was president. It ended before I got out of the Navy in the 70s.

The fact is that we do NOT need the draft. We are currently above the authorized troop strength now. And YES Clinton along with Bush I cut the armed forces to the bone. They cut the authorized troop strength.

Grenada, Panama, and Nicaragua
Well Fred my memory serves me three time Reagan sent the military into battle all listed above. and to jerabaub I served two of my three sons are serving and I have 5 nephews serving. Any more liberal chickenhawk BS?

Fred
Please remind the class what ST CLINTOON did when American embassies where blown up and Americans killed, the USS cole was attacked, withdrawal of Somolia and Black hawk down, he let OSAMA BIN LADEN run free


Oh my bad dude HE ATTACKED AN ASPERIN FACTORY my bad sorry

Slow learners
It seems many people have difficulty assimilating Nature's harsh reality: "government" (actually the dominant members of the stupid-human pecking order struggle) is nothing more or less than an transnational "globalist" "good old boys" club who use the violent coercion-based police power of government and its military forces to steal the labor of their people and line their own personal pockets and secret Swiss bank accounts.
These Lex Luthors are collectivists and parasites by nature, because it is FAR easier to steal from a centralized "interdependent" economy where the individual is helpless and dependent upon the state, than it is to steal from a decentralized economy where the individual has survival skills and is self-sufficient.
All the BS about DEM and GOP is just that: camouflage, a ruse, a shell game, with "we the people" playing the role of hopelessly gullible yokels/rubes.
There is no need to "bring back the draft" until an end is put to U.S. involvement in the great "globalism" socialist experiment. In this information age of the internet, young men are not going to volunteer in large numbers to fight for a bunch of labor-stealing "good old boy" One-Ring government crooks.
Decentralization and self-sufficiency have always been the key. LAND is nature's means of production. And knowledge (of such as math, science and agriculture) is power. Why do you think our neo-feudalist money masters want public "education" to dumb everybody down? To facilitate individual freedom and prosperity? Or to cultivate collective "interdependent" helplessness?

Rick
What is so funny is to here LIBS all of a sudden acting like they care about the MILITARY.

I served 22 yrs and have 7 family members in the miltary today and you are not going to get the CHICKENHAWK LIBS to join the military becuase they think the military is the creator of all EVIL. So they are only spouting BS becuase they wouldnt waste their time defending this country and they know this to be true.

Sacraficing Tomorrow on Today's Alter!
Pull out of Nato! Withdraw our troups! Tell our allies their on their own! Defend ourselves only at our own borders! Let's abandon Israel, Tiawan, Poland, and why not, we've abandoned Texas, Arizona, New Mexico and California. There are over 30 documented cases of Mexican Military troups on our soverign soil. No, I'm not off topic! If we abandon foreign diplomacy, pull troups, then tell Russia what to do, they will look at our borders with Mexico and laugh.

You didn't answer the question
Charles Jerabab #86
The question was: "Is the US Military to be sacrificed so that Israel or Georgia exist?"

You didn't answer. Instead, you complained that many Americans know that our invasion of Iraq was based on lies. Then we won. Then we made a mess of the peace. And everyday came a fresh lie, or scandal, or incompetence.

But the question remains: Whether our military was gutted or not by Clinton, even if it was 10 times bigger than it is today, is it to be sacrificed for Israel or Georgia? If it's a poker game, and our military is all of our chips in the pot, is Georgia a strong enough hand to bet on?


Charles Amen
You are right if they hear someone say we need to stand up and do the right thing all they do is say sign up to serve because they think that is the scariest thing in the world. By the way my brother and father served as well.

Defending democracy
We might all try to remember too that Russia is as much a democracy as Georgia is. They may be corrupt, unstable, militaristic, and paranoid, but you could also say that about a lot of other democracies. The dispute in Ossetia isn't about defending democracy.


Fred
Reagan sent a few troops to Grenada for what, a couple of weeks?

Then we left.

It has been over five years now in Iraq.

And our Panama venture was what...a huge blaring of rock music to Noriega's tender ears?

I served also. Drafted in 1965, and miraculously did not end up in Vietnam.

Biggest chickhawks are the neocons...5-time-student-deferment Cheney, and the neocon think tank gurus like Wolfwitz and Perle...and G.W. ain't far behind with his family keeping him from the draft.

Georgia on my mind....
Thank you, Dr. Sowell
I am not a 'war enthusiast', but I do believe
that a stand against aggression and tyranny by
the United States and other nations is vitally important to deter those nations that would
invade others. I do not have the answer for
'peace in the world', but I know that it will never come about if those of us who are for
peace and freedom ...do nothing when challenged!!
Joan I. Fuller

Fred
You ask “when has Russia ever threatened Israel?”. Well back during the Arab-Israeli war in 1973-1974 we went to combat readiness, radio silence, and a flank bell to the IO because Russian pilots were flying the Arab Migs. This was in addition to supplying all the arms to the Arabs for the war.

DAVID
We didnt have a problem sacrificing our miltary for GERMANY TWICE, Korea, Fance, Italy, England hell all of europe, the question should be DO WE HAVE THE HEART and WILL TO DO WHATS RIGHT.
We have been the strength behind DEMOCRACY so do we stop now. Are we willing to sit back and watch all that we have done around the world for DEMOCRACY just get thrown into the GUTTER?

Now thats my question to you? What are we willing to sit back and let happen. I agree that other Nations need to try and defend themselves but when they run into a problem do we sit back and watch their destruction of FREEDOM of DEMOCRACY? If so we are no better than the RUSSIANS or any other DEMOCRATIC COUNTRY.

I recall your ST OBLAMA telling the GERMANS we are all in this together and should be walk hand in hand for freedom ansd DEMOCRACY . So is ST OBAMA LIEING AGAIN

Chickenhawks
Charles #95. I didn't serve 22 years, but I enlisted and served for three. That's three more than Cheney, Wolfowitz, and Rumsfeld combined. It's a mistake to claim that everyone in the military is a conservative. I'm fairly certain that many in my unit were moderates and liberals, maybe even environmentalists and vegans. I know some were gay. Some were even from California. They still did their duty, and didn't feel their patriotism depended on being conservative, or that only conservatives could be patriotic. By the way, thanks for your service.

Only in America
Yes, only in America can you give your opinion and not worry about your life, your job, nor your status. America was once a great nation and has little of that left. Seems the homosexuals, the so called minorities, and the elite rule and God is somewhere so far back he matters not. We are only as good as good we are and when we turn our backs on those of need, we, not they will pay a price. May God have mercy on you and this nation.

Jerabub
You say you served when drafted that makes you better than a former commander in chief (#42 if you are not sure to whom I allude) who ran away when he was supposed to serve and didn’t inhale; however your flippant attitude of armed conflict anywhere where service people died seems inconsistent for someone who served; but then you are a liberal and that is the same as insanity so I understand.

David
Im not on here saying that all Military is Conservatives. Hell I was a LIB when I was in the Military. Im saying that on TH all LIBS ive had debated always has something bad to say about our Great Military. My family members are all Moderate DEMS, they dont like to be called LIBS. They even have a problem with their own party when it comes to the military. Dont you think that all soldiers REPS or DEMS or LIBERTARIANS hear what is said about them, ie Our soldiers are acting like the KGB or the SS and are killing and murdering women and children. dont you think they dont hear the LIBS stating that they are WARMONGRELS and are bombing innocent women and children.

I was in NAM and let me tell you something, this Military will not come home like we did from NAM and have people throw bags of SH!T and P!SS at them and scream that they are a bunch of Baby Killers and scumbags becuase what our GOVERNMENT had them do. No one joins the Military just to go to WAR and if someone on hear stated that then I would tell them that I dont want them in my military at all.

We are a country that at this time is divided and if you dont think the rest of the World doesnt know that then you are mistaken.

Also thank you for your service.

...and to David
What in your service makes you better informed or more knowledgeable than those you mentioned? This is an argument I constantly hear from liberals who have served that those who have not served have no right to an opinion. I served so that everyone has a right to their opinion and the right to express it. You may not like Cheney, Wolfowitz, and Rumsfeld that is your right. I don’t like Clinton, Albright, or Obama but they have a right even though they didn’t serve to voice their opinion as misguided as it is without my claiming a moral superiority because I served. I truly believe they are all smarter than me, just not wiser ;)

Allies?
Dave M #16 (and all the others who call Georgia our ally):
Please remind the class, what treaties does the US have with Georgia that obligate us to defend it? We aren't distant allies, as you suggest. So instead of complaining about rationalizing, how about if you give us a realistic, rational plan for a solution to the situation in Ossetia and Georgia. Should we hope like baseballdoc (#58) that a deranged madman will push us into nuclear war?

jerabaub
Please tell me that you stated that GW wasnt drafted, he wasnt but he was in the military already, Are you serious or are you on that crack pipe again, GW was in the military when Nam was going on, now his Dad might have help keep him from going to Nam but he was in the military.

Hell even your LIB buddies on here will tell yoiu that.

By the way I like being a CHICKHAWK and enjoy women daily.

Im begginning to think you are only on here to start BS. I dont mind debating you but PLLLLEEEEAAAAASSSSEE get with the program. You are starting to really make me believe that all you LIBS do is LIE.

Rick
Just because I have no use for G.W. Bush does not mean I give Clinton a pass.

I am running away from nothing.

Clinton never mounted any strong retaliation for repeated Al Qaida provocations during the 90s.

Plus, the Kosovo war was obscene. It was fought on behalf of Muslim Albanians(some of whose leaders were radical Islamists), and against Christian Serbs.

Clinton was duped into it by Albright.

Having said that, Bush is a disaster.

A frat boy who got in over his head.

Iraq was a disaster, and his needlessly extending NATO to Russia's frontier may well resurrect what Reagan so assiduously worked to eliminate...the Cold War.

I can't stand either Clinton or Bush.

And on that note
of criticizing both Bush and Clinton, I will call it a day.

Sayonara.

Chickenhawks
Rick #108.
The subject was chickenhawks. I never said that those who haven't served have no right to an opinion. I also didn't mean to say it or imply it. Everybody has the right to voice their opinion. I was responding to Charles' assertion that all liberals are chickenhawks and won't serve in the military. He's wrong. Some famous chickenhawks are conservatives. And liberals serve in the miltary.

Sacraficing Tomorrow on Todays Alter
Pull out of Nato! Abandon our Allies! Take a 40 year step backwards on Foreign Policy! Pull our troops and talk nasty to Russia! Well that sounds great if it's 1981. Defend our own Borders??? We are not protectecting our allies in Texas and Arizona who are too often invaded by Mexican Military Troops. This is not a matter of knee-jerk, emotional realignment of foriegn policy, it's a matter of the hearts and souls of the American people being driven by money, gas, credit and self comsumption and the Russians and the Chineese and the Iranians all know that. They know we have a big military but our politicians are not leaders, their followers of polls and reelections campaigns. All the pulling out and teaching of leasons and big talk is worth nothing if you can't protect yourself yourself from the likes of drug lords from Mexico.

Dont we have enough problems???
I'm not sure what to say about this article. We need to make it clear that Russia's actions are completely unacceptable and they need to pullback, but I don't believe we should get engaged in the conflict unless Georgia requests it. We have our hands full already in battling Al Queada, Afgahnistan, Iran and those who would kill Americans without blinking. Do we really need to get involved in something that isn't related to American interests? I don't think so. Just because you have a big-stick doesn't mean you have to use it everytime someone try's to threaten your allies.

jerabaub
I cant stand either Clinton or Bush.

Wow something we both agree to, Im no big Bush fan I only get irritated when LIBS put the troops down for doing their Military duties as they took an oath to do.

Bush blew this war but like you stated with Clinton that he was mislead by Albright I could say Rumsfeld did the same to Bush

See we can agree to somethings

David
please read my 2:19 PM statement


Liberal patriots?
Charles #107,
You're welcome. I was responding to your #95 in which you said that liberals would never defend their country. I'm glad to see you recant that. We'd all be better off if we stopped trying to use labels to explain people.
I hope I haven't said anything bad about the military, except that they have been misused and ill-equiped in Iraq, and that's because of their political leadership.
I have participated in welcome home greetings at airports as military units return home from Iraq. It is a marked difference from the welcome home given to many Vietnam vets. I want to thank our troops for serving and recognize that the blame for fighting in a war based on lies rests with the men who told the lies, not the soldiers.
You served in Vietnam. Do you feel the war there was justified and unavoidable to protect the US? I believe McNamara and Johnson should have been sent to prison for the expensive lies they told us. Instead, ehey got pensions and book deals. All those names are on the Vietnam memorial wall because the nation let it happen. I don't think soldiers should die because of lies, or to force another country to give us their oil. Does that make me a liberal?

Georgia and the bear.
What is the good for nothing U.N. doing about this invasion of Georgia? Will they have enough back bone to tell Russia to stop their agression or face the consequences? Think not, since they all belong in the same bunch of greedy dictators fleecing the American taxpayers and when needed turn heads to the wrong side. Is time we get out of that group and tell them to go somewhere else with their political agenda. Enough is enough. We need real partners and real friends, not traitors in a den of thieves.
May the Almighty God send His army and wipe this agresor for good.

David
The word chicken hawk was created to demean those who supposedly were too afraid to serve in the military and (Chicken) and are eager to use those who are serving (Hawks) to enforce Americas will or protection (however you look at it) in the world. Any one who calls another chicken hawk is trying to stifle that persons’ opinion. Jerabub started this whole chicken hawk thing by telling me that “If you are so enamored of your rhetoric, no one is preventing you from enlisting in our armed services and hoping for the day you can take on the Russian bear.” Of course he didn’t know that almost everyone in my family has served or is serving and of course many caught the chicken hawk innuendo. Continued

David continued
The bottom line is we are not alone in the world and while in the short term it might seem easier to withdraw and let the rest of the world go to pot, the oceans that separate us from the rest of the world are no longer the barrier that they were even in WWII. When we have no allies left, everyone will be our enemies. A country that has patterned their constitution after ours and have applied to NATO for membership and if you look at the history Georgians have ALWAYS opposed Russia and have been dominated militarily since the early 1800’s. They know that they will never be able to protect their borders from Russia. They looked to us. If someone is being bullied, they look for a friend that can say to the bully, leave my friend alone and is strong enough to back it up. If we are to play a part in the world as the power that we are, we have to expect some to envy our strength, some to fear our strength and some to rely upon our strength. The wisdom is in knowing which of the above each other country is. The former are irrelevant, the second are those whom we should trust but verify, and the third group those we should assist when asked. To my knowledge Georgia has not asked for military assistance but Bush did put US military in Tblisi. Then Russia started talking cease fire.

Russia 1968 is back Bolder than ever .
When you listen to Russians on the blogs and calling into Radio talk shows or seeing them interviewed .
There is one commonality all of them share even though it is totally arrogant .
The Berlin walls coming down and Russia Basely going bankrupt .
And allowing their huge fleet to be rusted or turned in to scrap metal and losing control of all those Eastern European countries Embarrassed Russia terribly even their brain washed citizens acknowledged not just them Military leaders .
This time they have real Oil money unlike before and will go after all of those Eastern European countries And more than likely take over them as well .
The reason is simple Western Europe very weak as is NATO and is Married to Russian Oil and Natural Gas . That is why Germany and France made a fool out of Georgia saying Russia needs to stay there as a ''PEACE FORCE " ? PEACE FORCE .... THAT IS LIKE ALLOWING THE FOX TO GUARD THE HEN HOUSE .
America does not want WW 3 with Russia BUT my guess is Putin would like that since he hated it when Russia fell since he was the head of the KGB .
His goal is to return Russia to a Super Power anyway he can since he is a devout Marxist and Stain believer . Putin has something Russia has never had before .....It is first Money then real power in the hands of known Thugs sadly ..... I suspect sadly WE ARE BACK TO THE COLD WAR WITHOUT EUROPE'S HELP HIS TIME .

We could invade Mexico!
...and what would the Russians do? Nothing. {TACO} would be just as ineffectual as NATO, especially since Georgia has yet to be admitted. As to America's promises to come to some other countries' aid; which heads of state are so naive as to count on a single word of any treaty or promise from other politicians? Self-interest is the only reason a government does anything. At least Poland is smart enough to know that...and we are so dumb as to take them and all their baggage as extended family.
The wimpy usual suspects of Europe will not defend Georgia; or any other 'break-away.' They want fuel for their cars and gas for their furnaces. They know what happens to bad little rabbits when the Russian Bear starts growling. Let the stupid, bellicose Yanks do the heavy lifting as usual.

Bush looked deeply into Putin's eyes...and the coming Czar of all Europe and a large part of Asia, winked at him.

Sowell on Georgia
I, too, am concerned because this is all too similar to the invasion of Hungary in '56, and also because more nations than the US are want to shoot off their mouths and do nothing. However, two things concern me.

First, Russia is a nuclear power and wants to re-establish its old empire. A full military challange to it could have terrible consequences. We need to be sure that we can both sustain a military action against it--which the US certainly cannot do in its current condition--but also deal with a nuclear retaliation as well.

Second, I am concerned that we don't know enough about the other side. My understanding is, and if I'm wrong, I would welcome a fact-based correction, that the two areas invaded are ethnically Russian, consider themselves to be Russian, and would rather leave Georgia and become a part of Russia. Also, I heard the Russian ambassador to the UN say that they had intellegence to indicate that Georgia was embarking on an ethnic cleansing project againt the Russians in the enclaves. If either one of these is true let alone both, then maybe we should support the Russians.

I am going to reserve my opinion until I know more. >RRR

Facing facts
I venerate George Washington, but I don't think that his foreign policy wisdom applies to our current status in the world. We need to face facts:

(1) We live in an economically interdependent world. The collapse of international trade would send our economy into a depression. Our way of life requires that we remain engaged in the world and prevent serious trade disruptions.

(2) Our economy, and that of the entire world, is based on relatively cheap, abundant sources of coal, oil and natural gas. There is no realistic substitute for these energy resources, and their geographic distribution creates unavoidable political problems. Russia's move into Georgia appears likely to give it even greater control over Europe's energy supply. Any serious military or economic sanction against Russia would cause it to cut off Europe's energy, which would cause massive harm to our economy in two independent ways: (a) loss of foreign trade with Europe, and (b) an increase in world-wide energy prices

(3) "Energy independence," even if somehow achievable, will not end our vulnerability to the economic impact of destabilization in energy-rich areas, including Russia and the Caucasus. Unless we end free trade -- which would itself prompt a depression -- energy prices will continue to be set on an international market. It would be nice to develop additional US resources and thereby improve our trade balance, but this would not somehow insulate us from oil price fluctuations when supplies are threatened with disruption (whether from natural, political or military causes).

(continued)

Georgia On Our Mind
Mr. Sowell makes some excellent points, as usual. With Russia "speaking in a whisper and carrying the BIG stick" is absolutely the only thing they respect (based on fear instead of higher principles, unfortunately). It's genetic, I'm afraid. The point about shutting the h--l up unless we are able to back it up is right on too and goes along with the "walk your talk" adage.

Facing facts cont'd
(4) I think that Mark Steyn is correct in his analysis (in America Alone) that Russia is the "sick man of Europe," in a demographic death spiral from which it is unlikely to emerge. This is doubtless a tragedy, but when a nation chooses to abort 70% of its babies, it isn't going to have a future. It would be less disastrous if Russia went out with a whimper, rather than a bang, but the bang is much more likely. Expect more trouble from Russia as it lashes out at small, weak neighbors.

(5) We are the global hyperpower, and our power will increase, in relative terms, over the next 50 years, for demographic reasons alone. Our population will increase significantly (probably by about 1/3). The population of Japan, Germany, and Italy are already falling, while Britain and France will probably remain about flat. Expecting our advanced allies to shoulder a greater military burden is unrealistic.

Conclusions from these facts:

(1) Isolationism is not an option;

(2) We will continue to be the major military power. We shouldn't expect much help from our allies. That's fine. We should do the job, and ignore their whining.

(3) NATO is worth keeping, as a bulwark against Russia in the west. This will help divert Russia's attention south, which is not a good thing, but better than a move to the west.

(4) We need an international body like the UN. My personal opinion is that the UN is fundamentally flawed. I agree that we should withdraw, but I think we should set up a successor organization on our terms.

It's About Mexico "Stupid"
All my employee's earn the right to move up. Do well at the basics and I will support you with larger tasks, more responsibility and more $$$.
Look folks, Honestly! If Congress and POTUS can't protect our border with Mexico, If Mexican Military Troops and Drug runners can invade our soverign soil without consequences; If they send our Border guards to prison for protecting US citizens,,,,,, Then forget about Georgia, forget about foreign policy, it doesn't exist. Get our attention off the huge hole in our security right here at home, the loss of soverignty and the immoral policies we have with MEXICO by worring about Russia and Georgia. Until we handle the basic's, nothing else matters!!!!!! Not Russia, not Iraq, Iran, China. There is OIL IN MEXICO! Lots of it! JEEPER's doesn't anyone get this! We worry about NATO while our national secuity crumbles on our South border. IT's a big deal.

Russia is not a superpower
Russia's current population is 141 million, with a GDP of 1.3 to 2.1 trillion (using official exchange rates and purchasing power parity measures, respectively). The US has a population of 303 million, and an economy of about 13.8 trillion -- six to ten times that of Russia.

Russia's population is already declining at about 0.5% per year. By 2050, the UN projects that Russian population will be 108 million. That is a decline of about 23%.

The UN projects that US population will be 402 million in 2050, and increase of about 33%.

The UN projects that the population of the rest of the G8 (Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan and the UK), currently 425 million, will decrease to 412 million, a decrease of about 3%.

This is why I say that: (1) Russia is not a superpower and is in decline, and (2) US relative power will increase in the next 50 years.

JD IS CORRECT-
Yes , and to all the good conservatives out there, I hope that you read the Chuck Norris column here on Town Hall . I believe that we had best clean up our borders and illegal alien mess first and then worry about nato. If our borders remain like they are, what is next? I see the results since I live in a sanctuary city. I just wish that we had some hard core right wing America first leadership. Am I wrong?

We don't need reckless bluffing
“Sometimes it has seemed as if our foreign policy is to speak loudly and carry a little stick.”

Leave it to Dr. Sowell to sum the situation up perfectly.

The U.S. needs to choose its battles carefully. Even if the Bush administration believes that protecting Georgia is somehow vital to U.S. interests we still need a thoughtful plan and clever maneuvering, not reckless bluffing.

The last paragraph...
... is a perfect summation of the situation.
In the meantime, the West must be selective as to which dog we support in any fight. Saakashvili has shown himself to be an incompetent & a bully -- the very last character-type we want to stake our power & prestige on. If we are going to build regimes in Russia's backyard, treacherous rogues are probably not the best choice to lead up the government.

Hey Svara! Thank you
And, for some reason, (political correctness or otherwise) Most Americans don't see it. Bush will have a legacy and it will be a failed policy with MEXICO, not Iran.

Chickenhawk
Rick #14
I didn't call anyone in these forums a chickenhawk, I was responding to Charles' use of the term to describe all liberals, when it is well known that a famous chickenhawk occupies the office of Vice President. I don't think I have stifled Dick Cheney's chances to express his opinions by saying the chickenhawk label applies to him and other conservatives too.
Maybe it would be a good idea to try to carry on civil discourse here without using demeaning labels. Many who have posted here have managed to avoid them, and communicated quite well without them. Try it.

Nato
is a paper tiger with no bite other than with women and children as was proven in Africa when the troops sent there to protect the civillians actually raped and killed women and children. The murder of children is bad enough but raping them is calling for hanging.

Think before acting
Well, Jesus H Christ on a popsicle stick, maybe the Georgians should have thought about all this before they started a war with the Ossetians, killing 2000 Russian civilians and several dozen Russian soldiers. I am NOT sending my son to die in some crazy foreign war to "save" the Georgians from a Russian slapdown. And America would do very well to stop arming thuggish governments like the ersatz "democracy" in Georgia, and poking the Russian bear. How would you neo-cons like it if the Russians had armed the Mexicans? The best foreign policy is the one outlined by George Washington and Thomas Jefferson: Trade with all; ally with none.

Russia's ''near-abroad'' neighbors..
--
...have been seeking common cause - both economically and politically (which means "militarily") with the West, one important emotional stimulus being the aggressive posturing - and now the aggressive behavior - of a Russian government whose policies appear to recognize that Moscow hasn't got a whole helluva lot that's positive to offer these former satrapies.

I suspect that it might be a good idea to get Russia into NATO.

The North Atlantic Treaty Organization was *NOT* created to form a bulwark against Russia per se, but rather against the manifest violent aggressiveness of Soviet Communism, a political ideology not necessarily identical with the Russian people or their character any more than National Socialism is necessarily inseparable from the people of the Germanies.

Getting the Russians into NATO - integrating them into the military defensive structure of Western Civilization rather than allowing their governing goons -

((And all governments are made up of murdering, tyrannical, vicious goons, most emphatically including our own.))

- to encourage that longstanding xenophobia among the mujiki that is so much a constant in Russian history, thereby buttressing said goons' security in power on a base of paranoid neurotic sentiment fundamentally opposed to the average Russian citizen's rational self-interest but oh-so-very familiar as a residue of the old Communist Party's Rodina-worship.

Remember, to us it was World War II. To the Russians, it was (and continues to be) "The Great Patriotic War."

An enormous trauma, not lessened for the fact that huge numbers of the murders were inflicted upon them by their own Communist government goons.

Only an emotional as well as economic and political investment in the West - in NATO, perhaps - could assuage that trauma, and I don't think that American politicians (or the cookie-pushers of the State Department) fully grasp this sort of thing.

--

Hold on to your wallet, and your kids...
The leadership of this country can't stand it until they run their mouths and find a way to get involved in ALL global affairs, large and small. George W Bush has got to stick his nose in everything coming and going - or else. He's more concerned with the borders of other countries than his own. As long as there are sons, daughters, and checkbooks of American taxpayers close at hand - he's ready to use all three to place his face in EVERYBODY'S business, regardless of its relevance to our interests, or its location. Soldiers, listen-up, BEWARE! When he sticks you in some God-forsaken place - be careful and make sure you're kind and gentle while people are trying to kill you, or you'll be prosecuted when you come back. It's important you make GW look good to all within the international playground that he calls home. One World Order is just around the corner, whether we have to have another Cold War or not.

I bought a cap that says it all
I just found a baseball cap on Right Wing Stuff that says it all and had to buy it. The slogan on the cap says:

America: Saving Europe's A$$ Since 1917

I must admit that I am very tempted to book a trip to France and wear the cap on the streets of Paris.

I have always thought...
...that NATO was a good thing, that it brought many free nations together and bonded them with a common brotherhood of defense.

NATO is supposed to be a deterrent from Imperialism, from larger countries bullying others and taking away their sovereignty.

Therefore it is difficult for me to read an assessment such as this... my impression has always been that NATO peacekeepers are much more effective than U.N. peacekeepers - if only because they are usually soldiers who will shoot back if harassed.

However, be it money, troops or time... I would very much like to see other countries - particularly those of Europe - begin taking more of an interest in world peace. Only together can we achieve it... otherwise America will continue to peck away at problems a few at a time.

European nations other than the U.K. tend to sit back far too often and "let America take the lead". That sincerely bothers me.

We in America are a very rich, prosperous nation. However, so are many of the Western European nations. They too should be sharing of their time, treasure and talent to assist with the continued, ongoing security of all free nations.

That is sincerely how I feel about NATO... that it has GREAT potential.

The reality on the ground appears to be considerably different, however.

NATO
Why does Nato continue to exist? It has outlived its intended purpose. I am also distressed to see in today's news a U.S. destroyer arriving off the coast off Georgia. While the story says the ship has humanitarian supplies on board, this is hogwash. The Pentagon told them to take some of their own stores of supplies, and they would be re-supplied from a supply ship, presumably in the Med. This is little more than a provocation against Russia. Not smart George!

Sowell for Presidnet
Another great column.

Could Obama even get a security clearance based on his past and present associations?

P.S.
Judge Judy ges $45 million a year! There is something wrong with this picture.

Georgia Invasion and NATO
We certainly need a more coherent foreign policy and it gets a little old listening to Europe bash us while we care the lion's share of the burden in military defense. I wonder how many of their stupid social programs would crash if they had to shoulder the task of defending themselves and developing more military technology.

Diane

Is Sowell an non-interventionist?
I can't believe my eyes. Neocon Thomas Sowell is advocating getting out of NATO. He must be one of those dreaded non-interventionists.
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