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Tuesday, July 29, 2008
Thomas Sowell :: Townhall.com Columnist
Random Thoughts
by Thomas Sowell
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Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


Random thoughts on the passing scene:

Government bailouts are like potato chips: You can't stop with just one.

Anyone who is honest with himself and with others knows that there is not a snow ball's chance in hell to have an honest dialogue about race.

I wonder what radical feminists make of the fact that it was men who created the rule of "women and children first" when it came to rescuing people from life-threatening emergencies.

Barack Obama's motto "Change you can believe in" has acquired a new meaning-- changing his positions is the only thing you can believe in. His campaign began with a huge change in the image he projects, compared to what he was doing for 20 years before.

Despite the New York Yankees' awesome record over the years, no one has ever made 3,000 hits in his career as a Yankee, nor has any pitcher ever had 300 lifetime victories with the Yankees. Despite their well-deserved reputation as "the Bronx Bombers," there is only one Yankee among the top ten career homerun hitters.

After getting DVDs of old "Perry Mason" TV programs and old "Law & Order" programs, I found myself watching far more of the "Perry Mason" series. The difference is that too many "Law & Order" programs tried to raise my consciousness on social issues, as if that is their role or their competence.

What is amazing this year is how many people have bought the fundamentally childish notion that, if you don't like the way things are going, the answer is to write a blank check for generic "change," empowering someone chosen not on the basis of any track record but on the basis of his skill with words.

With all the big-name entertainers who have put on shows in prisons, why have so few put on shows for our troops in Iraq?

To me, the phrase "glass ceiling" is an insult to my intelligence. What does the word "glass" mean, in this context, except that you can't see it? Yet I am supposed to believe it without evidence because, otherwise, I will be considered a bad person and called names.

When New York Times writer Linda Greenhouse recently declared the 1987 confirmation hearings for Judge Robert Bork "both fair and profound," it was as close to a declaration of moral bankruptcy as possible. Those hearings were a triumph of character assassination by politicians with no character of their own. The country is still paying the price, as potential judicial nominees decline to be nominated and then smeared on nationwide television.

Some of the most emotionally powerful words are undefined, such as "social justice," "a living wage," "price gouging" or a "fragile" environment, for example. Such terms are especially valuable to politicians during an election year, for these terms can attract the votes of people who mean very different-- and even mutually contradictory-- things when they use these words.

It may not be possible to have machines call balls and strikes in baseball, since the vertical strike zone depends on the height of each batter. But a machine can tell whether any part of the ball passed over any part of the plate, so that umpires won't be able to call their own "wide strikes" any more.

It is hard to get the supporters of Barack Obama to give a coherent reason for their support. The basis for their support seems to be guilt, gullibility or-- in the case of some conservatives-- a hatred of John McCain.

It is heart-warming to see the Williams sisters maturing as people. They made tennis history from the beginning but they had a lot to learn about human relations-- and now they seem to have learned it.

How many in the media have expressed half as much outrage about the beheading of innocent people by terrorists in Iraq as they have about the captured terrorists held at Guantanamo not being treated as nicely as they think they should be?

Although most of the mainstream media are still swooning over Barack Obama, a few critics are calling the things he advocates "naive." But that assumes that he is trying to solve the country's problems. If he is trying to solve his own problem of getting elected, then he is telling the voters just what they want to hear. That is not naive but shrewd and cynical.

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About The Author
Thomas Sowell is a senior fellow at the Hoover Institute and author of The Housing Boom and Bust.
 
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Some folks can
hear it quack and see it waddle and still think the duck is a swan. Go figure.....

Other random thoughts
The Indians storm back and win the pennant, Bob Barr stuns everyone, winning POTUS by a landslide, the MSM begins objective reporting, illegal aliens are deported on a massive scale, John McCain becomes conservative, commercials are less than 30 seconds on TV, Northwestern wins the NCAA football championship, and Roe vs. Wade is overturned, and, most important of all, voters DO NOT believe what they hear, but actually research the candidates records on a massive scale! Wish we could see more of that LAST random thought.

Random Thoughts
It is my fortune that you have been recommended to me and I am grateful. I am proud to be in the company of a fellow American citizen such as yourself. Who knows? Maybe, someday I will have the opportunity to shake your hand. You have hit the nail on the head, once again, and I look forward to the next time you pound your point home.
Sincerely,
Lois E. Sprague
New Orleans, LA
morning40oz@yahoo.com

Just the Facts
AS Joe Friday used to say, "Just give me the facts, lady." In the old days opinions were relegated to the editorial pages of newspapers and facts were what was supposed to be in the rest of the newspaper. Baseball had its heroes and its bums, but the long ball hitters and pitchers didn't need chemical substances to "enhance" their performances. Usually the facts reflected in the statistics compiled on home runs, strikeouts, and earned run averages told the story of who was performing and who wasn't. Today, everything is hollow and hyped, especially politics. When an untried, callow and feckless Chicago politician like Obama can capture the nomination of a major political party for the presidency just on his rhetorical skills and his mindless mantra of "Change you can believe in," speaks volumes of how uneducated, guillable, and blind so many of my fellow Americans are. Not that the Republicans are much better. At least Ron Paul was the genuine article. But looked what happened to him. God save us. Phil

Thomas Sowell for President!!
.

Why?
I'm just a dumb blonde white woman but I want to know WHY we can't have an honest discussion about race? Why is it so important? Or...if it IS so important, why can't we talk about it honestly?? Maybe it's just politicians and reporters who can't talk honestly about anything at all. I couldn't care less what color your skin is....as long as you tell me the TRUTH. I like you, Mr. Sowell. So far, I even respect you. More people like you...maybe more honest dialog.

When I Was A Kid

I remember Raymond Burr coming to visit my aunt on a fairly regular basis. To this day, I can't watch a Perry Mason re-run without simply seeing the man, although he was quite an accomplished actor.

I like Law and Order, but I see your point.

I agree with Rush Limbaugh, however. If you want to improve your general sense of well-being, simply turn off your TV for a week or two. For me (except for an odd re-run of Matlock or Mason,) it has been most efficacious for closing in on fifteen years.

Conservatives for Obama?
Not many conservatives who dislike McCain are "supporters of Barack Obama", and we certainly don't lack "a coherent reason" for opposing McCain. To the contrary, I've found that McCain supporters cannot answer my specific arguments about why a McCain presidency would be worse for conservatism, and therefore the country, than an Obama presidency. I'm never nasty or derogatory and I try to be fair-minded. I just want to have a debate (not tonight, though). Part of me hopes someone can convince me I'm wrong and I really should vote for McCain rather than a third party candidate.

And I repeat - - - - -
I have talked to many people over the decades, and have found that when you get to the bottom line, no one really hates another person because of color, race, gender, creed, or anything like that. Those factors are the identifiers, and what you do next depends on your past experience with such a person, or what you just read in the paper, or heard on the news.

Just the other day I said to a Back man, a Pharmacist, “Do you know what I would do if I saw three big black men coming towards me on a dark street?”

He said, “You would cross the street.” I said, “No, I would say, Good evening Michael Jordan, glad to meet you Magic Johnson, I loved your show Bill Cosby.” He cheered my comment, and roared with laughter.

I don’t care what business or service you provide, I doubt very much that you would refuse service to those three men.

I have used that story with several black people, and not one person complained, they each and every one cheered and as one lady said, “If everyone had that opinion, we would have no more problem.”

You do not command respect, you earn it. If most of the stories in the paper tell about black gang members killing people, the Black community must correct that problem, the white community can’t do it.

As you can imagine, this could on for 50 pages at least, but I have carefully watched, asked, and talked abut this for many years.

Karen
I think Sowell meant that not everyone wants to be honest in a discussion about race. He often refers to "race hustlers" like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton, and such people always come from the Left. Why would the Left want to have an honest discussion about race? For the same reason they have no incentive to teach our children properly in public schools: the current situation works great for them! It gives an ideology that should be an extreme fringe, largely confined to the dustbin of history, a fighting chance to win elections. If blacks, en masse, dropped the victimhood excuses, they'd probably divide along ideological lines similar to whites. If that happens and Democrats no longer win 90-95% of the black vote in every election, Democrats would have almost no chance to win another presidential election - or control of Congress - for decades.

Speaking of Consciousness Raising
I like to watch the various nature, science and history programs that come on cable.

However, like Law & Order, occasionally they start getting into "Consciousness Raising," and I find I have to change the channel.

It seems you can't have a nature show that doesn't whine about how all the animals are dying off from the incursion of human habitation, or a science show that doesn't scream how maybe we might all DIE in one or another man-made cataclysm, or a history show that ...

... well, I can't complain much about the history shows. I suppose since the show is ABOUT humans they can't whine how everything is humans' fault.

But I've always been bad at history, so maybe I'm just missing it.

Jim from California...
Amen to your assesment. I am in my late 50s, grew up in Philadelphia during the 60s.
I was a police officer there for 10 years. I was brought up by the Golden rule. In most cases it was reciprocated.
I had a Black partner for a number of years and we would discuss the race issue into the night.
We we not far apart in our beliefs and he was older and grew up in the south.
He agreed that the race baiters(Jesse and Al and their ilk) were perpetuating the victim mentality which created an animus and distrust by blacks towards whites, police, and government in general.
Thing is most every white person that I know wants to see Blacks succeed. Their is no denying the hardships that their forebearers endured. But an agenda driven, self-gratifying group of self-appointed Black leaders such as the afformentioned perpetuate divisivness and mistrust.
No white person alive today is responsible for what happened to Blacks 100 years ago.
That is why affirmative action(reverse discrimation)and double standards will only create a new generation of disenfranchised leading to an unending cycle of animus.

A Reason For Lestat
I'd hate for this to boil down to a "lesser of the two evils" argument because I support McCain in spite of his "middle of the road" positions that rile hard line conservatives. A vote for a third party candidate would water down the McCain vote and greatly help Obama get elected. Obama equals Marxism or at least Socialism, neither of which will tolerate conservatism or capitalism. Remember that votes going to Ross Perot instead of George H.W. Bush got Bill Clinton elected. That wasn't exactly good for conservatism. The country, the Supreme Court, the military, to name a few are still feeling the effects of that even after 8 years of a Republican administration. So as far as conservatives are concerned, a vote for a third party candidate is a vote for Obama.
You don't want to have to live with that. McCain will make good choices for ALL Americans. Don't throw your vote away.

Lestat
Re voting for a third party candidate: You can be sure that candidate won't be elected, which means you would be deliberately throwing away an important opportunity. Meanwhile, McCain receives one less vote and Obama is one vote closer to the presidency of the greatest and most powerful nation on the planet.

Why does that matter, beyond the fact that Obama has no useful qualifications and is a far left liberal? Three little words: Supreme Court nominations. The average age of the Court is now 68, and it is almost certain that at least one judge will resign, or die of old age, in the next four years. No one believes that Obama and McCain would select similar nominees, and I can assure you that Obama's will all be far left activists of the Ginsburg type, or worse. This does matter, very much, and will for a long time to come.

Race Discussion
What is the meaning of an "honest" race discussion?

Dr. Sowell, no real conservative
supports the Vomit even though they will not vote for McLame.

Standard McLame reply
Voting for McLame because he is not as far left as O’Vomit is just like congress called it a budget cut just because they didn’t raise the spending as much as they wanted or planned.

A negative is still a negative and I have held my nose and pulled the lever for the last time with Bush. I did just like I had done in every election since Reagan. I held my nose and voted for the lesser of the evils, or as I used to say at the time, I voted against Kerry, I did not vote FOR Bush.

Voting for McLame because you think he will appoint originalist judges is wishful thinking and runs contrary to his record which is NOT originalist.

All that this has got us is the Republicrats drifting further and further to the left. They are in search of that mythical independent voter who doesn't make up his mind until 2 minutes before voting. In other words, they are chasing a chimera and will lose more than they gain. As long as we reward them for this bad behavior they will continue to chase liberal votes by moving further to the left.

As the Republicans drift further to the left taking some of the Commiecrats issues for their own, the Commiecrats will drift further to the left. It becomes an endless cycle of moving further into socialism. What we will ultimately wind up with is a “Stalin” running against a “Mao” and being asked to vote for Stalin because he’ll kill fewer millions than Mao.

People, if you vote for someone who has continually stabbed you in the back, then you deserve every backstab you get.

Would Obama force Co-ed bathrooms in US
Greetings. I do not know how much you keep up on legislative happenings, but people in the state of Colorado need your help. It is now legal and expected, for men to use womens' restrooms and vice versa. Recently a law was passed in Colorado, despite major outcries from residents against this law.
SB 200: The Bathroom Bill: Colorado recently enacted SB 200, a law that opens "public accommodations" - including public restrooms - to members of the opposite sex. In the name of protecting trans-gendered individuals from discrimination, Colorado has paved the way for sexual predators to take advantage of the confusion caused by this law - and endanger women and children. Read the bill in its entirety below.

http://www.leg.state.co.us/clics/clics2008a/csl.nsf/fsbillc ont3/BD7A295EB6F4460E872573F5005D0148?open&file=200_enr.pdf
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200703/tim-gill
http://americansfortruth.com/news/millionnaire-homosexual-t om-gill-commits-more-than-200-million-to-pro-gay-foundation s-political-campaigns.html
http://www.citizenlink.org/CLtopstories/A000007580.cfm?eafr ef=1

People in Colorado are nuts..
It's like the anti smoking law in Nevada. Never thought my cowboy brethren would put up with it. As far as an honest discussion about race... a good start would be how welfare has destroyed the black family better than any Jim Crow law.
As far as Mclame..there's a lot of bad with his good. And the MSM will crucify him, without mercy (cause he beat their "little precious". And what about another Rodney King uprising if Obamamama loses? How's that for a race discussion?

An honest discussion about race
I am white. So I cannot be listened to in a discussion on race. Nevertheless, the reasons there cannot be an honest discussion about race has changed. In my lifetime the reason went from - because whites were not willing - to because blacks are not willing.

Colorado was SOLD OUT to activists
People in CO aren't nuts! It was Gov. Ritter and the state legislators who were bought out by some guy, TIM GILL, who pours multi millions of dollars in elections in states he wants to force his agenda in. Check out the sites listed. Colorado residents DON'T EVEN HAVE A SAY in this one. They put the law into effect immediately and without recourse, just so residents in Colorado COULD NOT VOTE on the issue. May 28, 2008, SB200 was FORCED down the throats of Colorodoans. Now, we just get to be fined, possibly jailed, if we do something that may be construed as discriminatory. OH and off course us females now get to have men in our bathrooms.
Can't wait for the DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL CONVENTION next month. Suppose TIM GILL is financing his agenda there as well?

Vic
Normally I tend to agree with much of what you post and I would like to see the Republicans get a "time out" until they can grow up again. I have taken enough and finally switched parties to Libertarian.

If it wasn't for the fact that we could be saddled with BHO I would think this was an ideal time. Anyone that has read the "Left Behind" series might be feeling a bit uneasy. He is more of a globalist than an American. We embarass him by not being bi-lingual, other countries will scold us for wanting to eat, drive and heat our houses as we please and recently we have not perfected our country and we torture people. Now he is trying to ram through the Global Poverty Act which will all but subjugate us to the UN and cost us $840 billion over the next 13 years.

No other candidate has ever frightened me like this one and that is unfortunate since I believe the country is ripe for breaking out of the "good old boy" template for POTUS. It is just too bad that BHO, if elected, could set the progress back by leaving a bad taste in people mouths after they see what they really elected.

To the nose-holding Republicans...
...I have been voting (small "c" conservative)since 1956,when I turned 21,and I have never "held my nose" to vote for any person,and I am not going to start now at my advanced age.Our vote does belong to us,not a political party.The political party OWES us a candidate we can support(not a perfect one),and I don't vote against people,I vote FOR people.If you have to "hold your nose and vote",be prepared to hold your nose in 2012,2016,etc.,because the OTHER party is so bad.That's the trick bag you get into when you "hold your nose".

I remember in 1988 when H.W.Bush was running for the White House.He promised Republicans to cut taxes ("Read my lips,no new taxes",so we voted for him.Then in order to get cooperation from from a Democrat Congress,he raised taxes.The arrogant SOB then gave an interview to a TV newsman in 1992,and made the statement"Read my hips,no new taxes".The two of them then had a good laugh at our expense.

As we now know ,it costs him the '92 election and we got Clinton for two terms.I didn't vote for anyone in '92,and I haven't regretted it since.His son never made that mistake,and was elected to two terms.

So go ahead and hold your noses,and live with the results.

McCain? No thank you.

Brilliant Mind
Mr. Sowell, you have tapped in to what some of us who were born in the twenties, and have lived through and seen everything possible of political rhetoric in this lifetime, wholeheartedly agree with your assessment of what has happened to our beloved country with this presidential election cycle. I assess the current mainstream media as anti American by blaming us for all the ills in the world, and excusing the terrorists and those who are basically jealous of what we have achieved in this nation, by a spirit of hate and animosity that cries out for sanity and reason. I fear for our future, and pray that God will answer the prayers of those of us who believe in love and goodwill, and put a STOP sign in front of us before we destroy integrity and honor!

Pogo Was Right
My parents raised me with certain values that they considered important to my well being and to the well being of the country. They made it very clear that there were certain behaviors that were wrong. These included being someone who lied, cheated, backstabbed his fellow citizens, acted selfishly, was lazy, arrogant, two faced and/or false, and stole from others. Above all they taught me not to think of myself first..to always place the welfare of others ahead of my own welfare. And I assume, since all my friends in the small town in Maine that I grew up in, were brought up the same way, that a majority of american citizens were raised the same way.

Therefore, it is a great wonder to me that all of us rightly raised citizens of this great country continue to vote into office, at both the national level and the state and local level, people with all these negative traits. I have known of few politicians in my life time, with the exception of DDE and HST that did not exhibit lying, cheating, arrogance, selflishness, and stealing. We continually elect the lowest form of citizen to our public offices. And then we wonder why the system is not working. I will tell you why---because the politicians will do anything--anything-- to get elected and then to stay in office.

Politicians do more harm to the ordinary citizen than they do good.

I hold the farmers, loggers, and fishermen of Maine in higher regard than any politician. This is more than cynicism, it is downright disgust.

The only good elected politician is one who did not want the job in the first place.

Amen Brother!
Wow! Putting that much common sense truth in one article is almost overload.... almost. Watch your back though, pretty soon you will be accused of everything from unsolicited groping to being mentally unstable. Keep it up, we'll have your back!

Reasons to vote 3rd party.
My reasons:
1. Six children, 1 grandchild.
I want better for them. Obama & McCain are representative of all that is wrong with our world. Right now Bob Barr is the better choice.

Women and Children First
*I wonder what radical feminists make of the fact that it was men who created the rule of "women and children first" when it came to rescuing people from life-threatening emergencies. *

Judging by the way men and boys will use their knees and elbows to knock women and children down to get the last seat on the subway, I would venture a guess that in the olden days men instituted that rule for the same reason they would save their iPod, their Wii or their laptop today -- because men take good care of their property. Today when men no longer assert that kind of ownership over women, they no longer feel it necessary to care for them.


Keep thinking
Telling people only what they want to hear. Hm, that sounds like what Republicans did. They told the nation that you could have your taxes cut but forgot to mention that this would require a cut in government services. They told people that a program they love Social Security was broke and they wanted to save it. But what they proposed did not address insolvency at all and in fact would have made it worse. People were smarter and it sank like a rock. After 911 our president told us to put a flag on our lawn, and go shopping and leave the sacrificing to someone else and the paying for our war to the next generation. He told us we could reach energy independence by buying bigger SUV's.

Conservatives told us that the thing they loved about Ronald Reagan was his inspiring optomism about America and the fact that he was a Washington outsider. But they attack Obama for having these same qualities.

Not once did Sowells thoughts turn to McCain and the kind of President he would be. Best not to have unpleasant thoughts.

Keep Thinking Part II
Law and Order had been the most successful franchise in the history of TV. But I can understand why a conservative would be so much more confortable in the simplistic leave it to Beaver era that gave us Perry Mason. Everything was simple and easy then Good vs. Evil and good wins. Why cloud the mind with complexities.

DR. SOWELL, MRS. PADDY, KAREN, JIM,
OTHERS.


Dr. Sowell: Outstanding as always. Right on target as always.

Mrs. Paddy: Amen! Your post @ 1:26 a.m.

Karen: Excellent post, 1:30 a.m. Race must be transcended. Not easy! And "honest" dialogue almost impossible. More to do with "class", actually.

Jim: Another excellent post @ 1:50 a.m. Well said.

Larky: Excellent, excellent and excellent. 5:15 a.m. post. Every word true and dead center on target. Many thanks.

Vic: My vote is AGAINST Obama, who is supported by the most radical, left-wing bunch of traitors in this nation.

You want Moveon in the White House?

You want George Soros in the White House?

You want Keith Olbermann as Press Secretary to the President?

You want Harry Belafonte and Danny Glover and any other left-wing, American hating radical you can name visiting Michelle and Barack? You know, stopping by for a chat, attend a party, that sort of thing.

Good. Then stay home or vote for a hopeless third party candidate. You might as well vote for Robert or Hal. If you do so, you'll be seeing alot of those radicals listed above for the next four OR eight years.

My vote goes AGAINST Obama and FOR McCain.


Latest Random Thought.
I enjoy the random thoughts you write they are as usual right on the money. For what it's worth concerning your comments about the Williams sisters I agree. I really know very little about them but they seem to be a real class act, a breath of fresh air. They quietly do their job very well. I don't really follow sports personalities much.

jmo51
Did we read the same article?

Oprah
A little off-topic,but I'd just like to comment here, I wonder how we can be considered such a racist country when Oprah is one of the richest, most powerful voices in the country? She didn't get there because all blacks (13% of the population) love her.

I do have the highest respect for Dr. Sowell, not only his economics opinion but his well-earned wisdom. Why is it the most economists - those who understand best how capitalism works - are conservative, politically?

Random Thoughts
The ancient method of interaction between
people was mutually-earned respect. Thank
you for being respectable with your views
and logic.

aneagle

JMO51
Typical lib. Seems to think the economy is a zero sum game. By all means don't bother with facts. Kennedy and Reagan both proved you can cut taxes and raise the tax revenue. Also hearing problems. You can only hear what the DailyDose says. Bush said we should not let the terrorists disrupt our lives. Go shopping or do what you would normally do. This usually has to be explained to liberals. The SUV comment? Geez, you are a funny guy.

DO NOT, in any way, compare Reagan with Barry Insane. Reagan had principles and core convictions. Oblivious measures the public wind more often than Clinton did.

I kind of pictured you for a Leave it to Beaver person instead of Perry Mason. Since that is how you define the era that must be your preference. If you want to get modern then Law in Order is yesterday's news. CSI is more interesting and actually uses facts in their investigations.

We'll keep thinking. You can read TH or just go to the Kos to see what you are supposed to think.

T.C.
My thoughts also.

JMO51
writes:
"He told us we could reach energy independence by buying bigger SUV's."

He told us that the LOSER libsquirts would vote down drilling for oil, and he was correct! He told us that the libsquirts would lie thru their collective teeth, and he was correct. He told us that blithering morons walked the face of the earth, and he was correct! You're here!


Honest racial dialogue possible?
It is my opinion that most of the problem with racial dialogue is that it's not about race at all. but about the racial politics of victimization and/or ghetto culture. The chronic use of race as a weapon or a shield is the problem.

I love reading these!
Thanks for your random thoughts sir!

I wish mine were half as insightful!

discoduck
jmo51 is like robert or hal or will, they dont have to read the article they have a pre packaged response they throw in if it fits or not. Its along the lines of Dems = good Rep = evil, oh sorry , they dont believe in evil, Rep = bad

I Disagree
The Great One wrote:"It may not be possible to have machines call balls and strikes in baseball, since the vertical strike zone depends on the height of each batter." Not discussed - the width of each batter. But I submit (that's legalistic talk and on a higher plain) that a computer system could measure the height of each player and adjust accordingly. However, it would still leave undone the fact that some batters crouch more than others - and currently, umpires give that to batters. Poor pitchers. And when push comes to shove --- whoops, that's basketball. Another, but right on:"supporters of Barack Obama [cannot] give a coherent reason for their support." It is nearly 100% attributable to the MSM, otherwise Obamamama would be still unknown and Hillary would be headed for coronation. And I agree, guilt and gullibility is, along with yellow brick road goals, still trying to fulfill the 1960s dreams.

Sowell correctly points out
that 0blahma is NOT naif***, as he is not trying to SOLVE the US' problems, but to eliminate the US as a nation--just as Trudeau and Mulroney attempted to do to Canada!

***As I happen to be fluent in French (both Parisien and Montréalois versions), point out that this is the technically correct word--"naive" is the feminine version thereof.

Those of you who do not like
McCain should consider the big picture.
Forget barr or anyone else who can't be elected, you're wasting your time and your vote which good people died to protect.

With Mccain we know where he comes from, we know he's a patriot from a family of patriots, we know he has genuine character and love of country...we simply disagree on certain issues and we should also wake up to the fact that a "real" conservative as defined by el rushbo can never be elected in this country...period!

We also know that politics is a corrupt business, none of us could get elected to a city council seat without selling our soul to someone in either party.
SO, just where did this clown obama come from? Who owns him? Someone sure as hell does and that person or group does not have this countries best interest at heart.

We all see these pols as stupid, "how could they not see that" we say.
Why won't the dems privatize SS when any fool can see and the SS administration tells us it cannot pay full benefits past 2042. Why not drill, it's OUR oil, why not build nuke plants etc etc.

Because to do so would lessen their power over us, everything obambi wants to do lessens our freedoms and increases their power over us, anyone with half a brain sees it. So vote for barr or stay at home, but remember you asked for it.

Honest Dialogue
Increasingly, I think it's impossible to have an honest dialogue about anything. The only time people are really honest is when they're behind the wheel of a car, laying on their horn and cursing the day you were born.

Lestat
Why is McCain not worse Obama?

To sum it up simply, "Second Amendment".

I'm a grudging McCain supporter, not an enthusiastic one. I'm perfectly serious when I say that the only McCain badge I'd display would be printed on a clothespin.

But I made the Perot mistake and got 8 years of Clinton for it. Never again.

Tarmangani/TC
There is always an O'Bama on the other side and if we continue giving our vote to just any idiot who is not the O'Vomit of the day we will continue to get more idiots.

Presidency ticket
Dr. Sowell and Chuck Norris, Presidency ticket. You got my vote...two or three times if it were possible. Would need to get some tips from the Dems about that, though. I'm still locked into the one person, one vote thing, you know, for registered live people. Still, it's not too late for change, ey?

Honest Discussion
The reason we can’t have an “honest” discussion about race is that if everyone were honest about it there would be no discussion. In other words, there would be no need to discuss it because the subject would not come up. A person’s race would have no bearing on anything.

Based on that little bit of wisdom you can bet that anytime someone wants to discuss race they are a con artist looking for a fast buck.

Sowell's quandry
Sowell must be in a bit of a fix - ask him ten, even five years ago if he would live to see a black president and he would probably have laughed. The chances were slim to zero. And now the favourite to win in November is black - only, as was always more than likely, a Democrat. The wait for a black Republican candidate is about as long as it was in 1900. So he must be in a quandry - he is intelligent enough to admit (surely) that Obama is a formidable candidate, that this talk of Obama the communist or Muslim is ridiculous, and that the policy differences between the two candidates are unlikely to result in ful-scale revolution. But he can't - he has to keep sustaining the bottom-feeders that make up his Townhall audience. So as a result he actively campaigns against the first genuine black presidential contender, disparages him and his campaign, and acts like he would rather not see a black president. As a result I have lost some respect for him - if he were being honest with us all, he would admit that he would love to see a black president.

Honesty? Critical Bill, Ky
A tip on the proper use of outhouses. Keep in mind that the butt goes down, head up. The view is much better that way.

I'm voting for McCain
I'm as displeased as anyone that McCain is the nominee. But the presidency is too important for we conservatives to vent our anger. I too am not convinced that McCain's judicial nominees will be good originalists- but they will be a damn site better than Obama's. If he is elected, with a majority in congress, they will blow any liberal hack thru and not apologize for it. The RINOs will not have the stones, nor the fawning treatment of the MSM, to obstruct as the Dems have.
I submit to you all that we start now with congress. Find good conservatives to put up against the Dims and RINO's. Start the campaign today, and vote with your dollars before you enter the booth in the primary.
It CAN get worse! You have to ask yourself, is this (the presidency) the hill you want to die on?

Honesty requires comedy or children...
The only hoenst comment about race I have ever seen was in the show "Avenue Q", which I suspect no-one here has seen because it's adult-rated muppets, inlcuding homosexual muppets. Anyway, the show includes the most honest song I have heard and the most honest comment aboubt race. The song is entitled "Everyone's a little bit racist". If people admitted that to begin with we would have a far more open discussion, but we can't admit it because, well, we can't.

I also mention children and honesty, because in considering this post I was reminded of a recent news story. An 8 year-old had stolen his grandmother's car and gone on a bit of a demolition derby. He was interviewed after the police had caught up with him, and in the interview he was asked why he did bad things. His response was "because doing bad things is fun". Cue much outrage, blame and soul-searching in the media... but it was one of the first honest comments in the crime debate that I've ever heard.

Drugs are the same - the main reason people do drugs isn't because of broken homes, because of rebellion or because of socio-economic factors. The main reason people do drugs is because doing drugs is fun. But again, you can't dare say anything like that in public because to do so would be career suicide.

So there fore the chances of honest debate about any of these ills in our sciety - racism, crime and drugs - are zero point zero. Because if Sowell thinks Republicans would say those things where Democrats wouldn't, he is crazy.

Shimo
Shameful though it is, I am only able to converse in English. So if you would care to re-post in a language I can understand, perhaps you will get your point across a bit better.
cheers!

Random responses...
"Anyone who is honest with himself and with others knows that there is not a snow ball's chance in hell to have an honest dialogue about race."

That's because you can't have a dialogue about race without inviting some racists. If no one asks David Duke to attend, you just have a monologue.

"I found myself watching far more of the "Perry Mason" series. The difference is that too many "Law & Order" programs ..."

Come on... the REAL difference is that TV defense attorneys were the heroes 40-odd years ago. Today's TV dramas make the prosecutors and cops the heroes (defense attorneys are at best sleazy cruds who get the obviously-guilty "perps" off on a technicality). It's part of the bleak longing for fascism that's overtaken our culture.

Random Thoughts
I agree that we may never have an honest discussion on race. Many people on both sides are unwilling to admit to their true feelings about people outside their own race.

I think it can be discussed on a one-on-one basis but not in the media. The media doesn't want people to come together and speak honestly on race, they are only concerned with "gotcha" moments.

I have regular conversations about race with people outside my race and it gives me insight to what others really feel. That is the only way things will get better.

By the way, CriticalBill is more on target with his assessments than the other posts I've read on this article. It must be that KY water (I'm from Louisville) that makes these great minds think alike;-)

Dr.Sowell
The unsophisticated don't understand how pathetic you are,so I will explain it to them.Adam Smith,Veblen and Ricardo would not write such "Foolishness" in the wake of such great opportunity.Many people think of you as a great Economist,not I of course,but some.However,as "US" are facing one of our greatest economic challenges,you have nothing to contribute.This abandonment has no place in the life of a "Scholar".I am always disappointed by your "Cowardice"!

Dr Sowell
Can you be elected "Father of our Country?"

Someone needs to replace George Washington with that title and you are one of the very very very few qualified to hold the distinction.

Thanks for the great dose of common sense today!

Mr. Sowell..
Your random thoughts are very similiar to my...Oh, that's kinda scary.

Some things are very plainly seen if one is disposed to seeing them. You speak truth, and not many are able to handle that.

Keep on rolling.

Godspeed!

Critical Dummy
writes:
"The only hoenst comment about race I have ever seen was in the show "Avenue Q", which I suspect no-one here has seen because it's adult-rated muppets, inlcuding homosexual muppets."

Now why doesn't that surprise me at all. You watch adult rated muppets! That pretty much explains why your a mental case!

RealBlackMan
do you watch adult-rated muppets too? If you think Critical Dummy is insightful, you must be from England also!

My own random thoughts
Politicians who claim an interest in "Social Justice" are rarely interested in Justice at all. The same is true in "fairness", "equality", "tollerance" and "Diversity."

Beware politicians who claim to promote "Change." Any new official would be a change. Change is not always good and Change for the sake of "Change" is universally bad (with the rare "blind squirrel" exception).

Never believe what a politician says on the campaign trail. This advice should be followed universally and without exception. An honest man will never get elected. Ever. They will all tell you what they think you want to hear ("read my lips...") and, when they take office, do whatever the heck they wanted to in the first place. In the unlikely, but not altogether impossible, event that they say something that they really believe, it's just as easy to check their record as to listen to them prattle.

Those things said in private are far more representative of a politician's real views than anything he ever says in public. Hence the flack over Obama's "bitter...cling[y]" Americans speech and the desire of Jesse Jackson to emasculate Barack Hus-Change Obama.

Scrolling list of suicide bomber victims
Where is the detailed list of thousands of names of the innocent killed by suicide bombers in cafes, markets, religious pilgrimages, all the easy-to-reach, public places where men and women, boys and girls, and infants are slaughtered regularly?

We need to play those lists and show those photos all day every day to remind those of short attention span exactly what we are up against right now.

And, by the way, the next time someone throws The Crusades at you, remind whoever it is that The Crusades, however much they went off track, began as an attempt to reclaim Europe from Muslim forces, which reached across northern Africa and up halfway across France within 100 years of the death of the Prophet. The same forces, defeated at Tours and eventually expelled, returned again later, to be driven back, yet again, in the 17th century, with the defeat of the Ottomans. What we are witnessing is the continuation of that campaign to rule the world that has been a component of Islam from the very beginning.

Why doesn't that never-ceasing onslaught, with its constant toll of obliterated by-standers, provoke the outrage and condemnation of the world.

A complete mystery to me.

Charles
it is a mystery to most common sense folks.

ssgt
Sticks and stones..........

@ex-wyomingite
Great post as always.
I disagree that we are all a little racist though. Me and most black people I know do not feel we are better because we are black. Actually we have been programmed to believe we are worse because of it.

I think an honest conversation on race is the first step to healing the racial divide in America. You cannot fix a problem that you will not face head on. What say you?

"Holding your Nose while Voting"
Vic (and others who believe that way):

In virtually every sport I can think of (except golf) there are two aspects to the sport: offense and defense. A team with a good offense still needs to play defense to be able to win.

Not everyone likes to play defense, but when the time comes and it is your turn to dive for the line drive, or make the hard hit on the running back, or protect the goalie, you need to come through. In this election, I agree that many Republicans are not enamored of John McCain. However, we need to prevent the other team (Democrats) from scoring (winning the White House), because not only would we lose this game, but with the Democrats in control of both houses of Congress, and at least 2 Supreme Court justices coming up for retirement during the next presidential term, we wouldn't be able to get on the field for a long time.

Many people have never really participated in a team sport, and don't really comprend the concept of "taking one for the team". But we really need this one moreso than most. Unless you want Obama, Reid, and Pelosi running the country, and a couple more Justices like Ruth Baeder-Meinhoff (oops, Ginzburg) on the SCOTUS, do all you can to get McCain elected.

Oh, I forgot one random thought.
Beware the well-spoken, but vague, politician. Many of the greatest evils of the modern era have been perpetrated by well-spoken politicians.

Replies...
RealBlackMan - maybe there is something in the water here but as one of those pesky immigrants (so beloved of the Townhall faithfull) I can't really give it credit! Anyway, thanks for your comment... go Cards.
SSGT - Well, to each their own. And by the way, it's "you're a mental case" not "your a mental case". As in you are, not your possessive. I don't own a mental case. Capiche?
ex-Wyomingite - I'm not trying to achieve anything, just pointing out the same thing as you and the same thing that the esteemed Dr Sowell is trying to do. I don't see any answers from him. We are all slightly racist, and you seem to agree. Perhaps more accurately we are all slightly tribalist - we stick to what we know. I have no beef with a black president - on the contrary, and as you know, I will be delighted if Obama wins in November and if I could vote he would have mine, with bells on it. But I have no black friends, live in a city that is virtually segregated on race lines and live in an all-white suburb. I get nervous when I see gangs of black lads approaching me on the sidewalk. Does that make me raist? No, it probably makes me just very normal. the way I see it, everyone gets racism wrong, liberals and conservatives, only from my point of view liberals are a hell of a lot closer to getting it right. Good intentions may sometimes backfire but it's better to have good intentions than not. And I don't see too many good intentions from the right where race is concerned.

Critical Condition Speaks.

Everytime you think plants from Moveontraitors or The Daily "Hate America" Kos or Media "Goofy" Matters are gone, a new one comes along.

And each one is sicker than the last.

Enter CriticalBill.

However, the Obama supporting, "Rev" Wright nut jobs like CriticalCondition should surface more often. When Americans find out that people like CriticalCondition and Obama are thisclose, McCain will walk away with the election.

Sanity in the World
Mr. Sowell,
For a long time, you and John Leo have been my favorite columnists. He retired, and the world became a little less sane. I hope you share your thoughts for many more years. Obama is a socialist and an elitist--he will "take care" of us poor, ordinary people (regulate us,educate us, guide us to new heights of tolerance so that there is no longer a distinction even between male and female, give us everything we deserve--expensive free healthcare, a nice home, a rewarding job, and--yes-- freedom from worry). In exchange, we poor, ordinary people must be obedient--we must turn our heads the other way when we pass an abortion clinic (bloody business there), we must allow marriage to be reduced to nothingness (genderless), we must give up our right to defend ourselves, we must grovel to the rest of the world and hope they will like us, we must accept victimology as everyone's new doctrine, and we must silence all opposing voices on college campuses--conservative commencement speakers are definitely dangerous!
Yes, on second thought, I will vote for McCain.

This is a RECORDING !
Yet again .. This is a recording : Thomas Sowell's Common sense , complete understanding of Economics .(PHD ) Years of Timeless Visions and perspective to See the Bigger Picture in this World ...... while obviously blessed with the simple ABILITY to REASON makes ALL current Politicians look like First grade Dropouts Seriously needing to be Fired now . Due to years of Habitual Stupid MINDLESS Selfish behavior at tax payers expense .
This is also a recording .A lot different of course other than Sowell's past 40 years in residence .

The Usual Suspects.....
I see the usual suspects are condemning Dr. Sowell with their leftist rants. It is almost amusing to see them contort their responses into some elastic explanation of their counterpoints. I'm glad I don't live in their Bizarro world where common sense and lucid thoughts are forbidden.

Ex-Wyomingite
I read your post just for the hell of it.Now I know why this country is "Stuck" on "Stupid".If you have a brain and use it,corrections to your deficiencies should be easily made.But,most people lack the courage to change,especially when things are beneficial.A great philosopher once said;"I am smarter than all men,fore I know my own ignorance".I won't tell you his name,it wouldn't do any good.Those who are married to their own ignorance,rarely seek a divorce.May you enjoy many years of unhappiness!!!

WILLIAMS SISTERS
....."It is heart-warming to see the Williams sisters maturing as people. They made tennis history from the beginning but they had a lot to learn about human relations-- and now they seem to have learned it" ...

.....Don't forget that they had to overcome the attitudes instilled in them by their father who moved them to Compton, LA when the were very young to make them "ghetto tough" ...

.....Venus has really developed into a gracious and classy young lady over the years ...Serena lags somewhat behind but she has improved quite a bit from where she was in the beginning ...

.....I hope they both are able to compete in the upcoming Olympics and to bring the gold home to America .....COLOSSUS

Critical Bill
Critical ...yes
Makes sense.....No

Random Thought
As I read the notes I noticed a few things that seemed to stand out. Some bloggers seem to think that they can better convince folks of their point of view by name calling. It seems to be more prevelant on the liberal side, but some conservatives do it also. For my part, I stop reading the first time I see name calling in a comment. If you want to convince me of any thing, dont call me some derogatory name!
My view of U.S. history as I experienced it, only goes back to 1946. I remember my first grade class room shaking and rattling when the mine sweepers detonated mines just off the Northern California coast. I was very comfortable (felt safe in my home; trusted my doctor, banker, minister, neighbor, etc) then the sixties came along. At some point in the sixties our political leaders started listening to the socially progressive minority who had become very vocal. They also started sounding more and more socialistic, and seemed to want to give the government responsibility for people's bad decisions such as drug use, living beyond one's means, soft moral values, etc. Nearly everything that I hear liberals and consertives alike complain about today seem to stem from the socially progressive trend that started then.
God bless you Dr. Sowell and all of you fellow bloggers, and God bless America. May she survive the next four years.

Nam 65-66
"and I don't vote against people,I vote FOR people"
------------
Well said. The whole "elect McCain because we are scared of Obama" is nonsense. I can only respect McCain voters if they have valid reasons to vote for him. Fearing Obama is not a valid reason, but for some reason seems to be the drivig force behind McCain.

I say forget about the POTUS race this year. Focus on getting good conservatives back in congress. Get rid of Pelosi and Reid. Their 9% approval rating will drop again as Pelosi botched the offshore drilling that Bush is wanting. Open up the reserves she says. Did she ever stop to think that those reserves got full by drilling? Pour out the glass without a plan to refill it is not going to work Pelosi. Sheesh.

Sherry
A vote for McCain is a vote for disaster. Don't buy into the RW rovian muck that Obama is a socialist. His speeches and political bent are for basic capitalism. more so than what we have now. Bush, as we have seen again and again panders to big corporations and lets them act irresponsibly, then bails them out with our tax money. That is not capitalism. I think what has sunk McCain is his taking on Carl Rove, and his subsequent lose of dignity. His latest, Obama skips visiting troops and goes to the gym is humiliating.

SSGT @ 09:27 wrote
"RealBlackMan, do you watch adult-rated muppets too? If you think Critical Dummy is insightful, you must be from England also!"

Actually, rbm sounds more like a morOntarian than a Brit (after all, Britain did produce Maggie Thatcher).

COULDN'T HAVE BEEN PUT CLEARER
UNTIL I READ YOUR ARTICLE, NOT ONE PERSON BE HE WHITE, BLACK, YELLOW, GREEN, OR CHOOSE YOUR COLOR, HAS EVER BEEN HONEST ENOUGH TO GO ON RECORD AND STATE THE FACT THAT "THERE IS NOT A SNOW BALL'S CHANCE TO HAVE AN HONEST DIALOGUE ABOUT RACE". YOUR RANDOM THOUGHT IS IRREFUTABLE AND YOU ARE TO BE COMMENDED FOR STATING SAME.

Priceless
If you want to see what hand outs and feel good liberalism ultimately get you, read up on the Harper family from Extreme Home Makeover.

This is a RECORDING !
Yet again .. This is a recording : Thomas Sowell's Common sense , complete understanding of Economics .(PHD ) Years of Timeless Visions and perspective to See the Bigger Picture in this World ...... while obviously blessed with the simple ABILITY to REASON makes ALL current Politicians look like First grade Dropouts Seriously needing to be Fired now . Due to years of Habitual Stupid MINDLESS Selfish behavior at tax payers expense .
This is also a recording .A lot different of course other than Sowell's past 40 years in residence .

don't it make my brown eyes blue
I noticed as I scrolled down throug approx. 50 replies that not even supposedly like-minded people on a conservative website could have a civil discussion of race.
I'm also quite befuddled at Dr. Sowell's obvious hatred (jealousy?) for Obummer. Granted, he is the most liberal member of the Senate, but Dr. Sowell's vehemence smacks of something else besides just defending the conservative way of life.
Old conventional wisdom said you didn't discuss religion or politics in bars; maybe we should expand that to include abortion and race on the internet.

RealBlackMen
As you say: "You cannot fix a problem that you will not face head on."

So, when in the same breath you say: "I disagree that we are all a little racist though. Me and most black people I know do not feel we are better because we are black. Actually we have been programmed to believe we are worse because of it." I know that is not completely honest. While many blacks may indeed tear down their fellow brethern...Many, many black people do not like white people, in fact severely dislike bordering on hate and that is taught in much of the black community as well. In fact as highlighted by Rev. Wright and the entire BLT controversy, it is even taught in some black churches.

So, I think an honest conversation on race is the first step to healing the racial divide in America. What say you?

So, I say, be honest.

random thoughts of my own
1)Tolerance is the worst form of intolerance.

2)Obama is a moving target...changing his opinions daily. It's much harder to hit a moving target than one that is standing still. If you do manage to *hit the target* you risk being thought of as a racist.

3) Most technology doesn't improve our lives, it makes it more complicated.

4)All social justice is a method of removing God from the equation and making the govt/man the source of benevolence.


Nick in Northern Virginia
Voting 3rd party is defense

Williams Sisters Learn human relations?
Too bad they still have not figured out how to be gracious losers. When either of them loses, the opponent never outplayed them. Instead they weren't 100% for some reason real or made up to cover the fact that for whatever reason, someone just beat them. Yendis

Critical muppet lover
you're a maggot!

Is that better?

Critical muppet lover
or is
you're a mental midget working better for ya?


How to be a Liberal
How to be a Liberal is not easy .
Even though you are and American at Birth .
You have to be always talk about everything America has done or maybe done or possibly ever done questional or wrong .... While the Media swares it is the Truth coming from un-named resouces who heard ?
Now it gets even more difficult .You have to Blindly look at America's enemies with all their suicide innocent Iraq's and be heading while while praising morons like Nancy Polosi , Harry Reed and Oboma is the Second coming ... well just because .
You lastly know that now drilling for our own OIL no matter what it cost 250 Million Americans WHO CAN'T AFFORD $ 4.00 maybe $5.00 soon in gas is JUST .
Not you have passed the Stupid enough to be a Liberal test .
Con grads . Nah !

SSGT
In rare rhetorical form today, aren't we? Have you been taking those intelligence pills I keep reading about? I don't know if you can overdose on them, but in your case I think it is probably a risk worth taking.

Thanks to ex-Wyomingite for showing that some people on these threads are capable of debate rather than just name calling... and before anyone points out the irony of me saying that, yes, I am aware of it...

Must dash, moving on Thursday...

they are both vote whores
they are both vote whores

the proof is the holymen
they both will associate with sleaze if the sleaze will tell their gullible dupes to vote for him

the holymen and holywomen have a way of attracting people who cannot think for themselves, develop an original thought, or structure a sensible sentence (as seen in the commentary from "Christian" Ann Coulter's blogs)

Mr. Sowell, If I could speak to John McCain I would ask him to please avoid the holymen. I would tell him not to worry about the "agents of intolerance" or about Ann Coulter either. I would ask him to go back to being himself.

McCain would be a disaster?
A vote for Obama would be to vote to support more education, though the education system is failing to produce high school graduates who read. But Obama is for giving graduates our money to go to college. In effect pay raises for professors who don't teach. His other fix for education is to start kids sooner. Let's get them in a failing system earlier.

A vote for Obama is a vote for health care for all. Given that Medicaid and Medical forced doctors out and patients into emergancy rooms because the doctors could no longer afford to pay their staffs on what Medicaid doled out, this should be an excellant adventure.

The Obama approach to foreign policy. Talk to them. This is the Clinton model. The results of which Arafat slapped him down and we have Hesbulah and Hamas running amuck versus our not having to put up with Sadam Hussein reveling in the deaths of children by suicide bombers.

The Obama energy policy, global warming will present us with ample opportunity to get solar energy and he will cause the wind to blow to keep a constant supply for the thousands of wind generators it will take to supply Chicago alone.

Sorry slipped into a bit of sarcasm. I mean no disrespect.

Random Thoughts..Honest Dialogue on race
Kudos to you again Dr.Sowell! However we could have an honest dialogue on race,but the majority of blacks are stuck in the "spin" cycle of racism that happened 40-50 years ago. Of course, there are a few "random" incidents today, but blacks for the most part are looking for any excuse to label anything and anybody a racist, just because of some idiot behavior, which could have been perpetrated against another ethnicity, but no one calls it racism...why? Anyway American-blacks think Obama is their messaiah...well he's not my messiah,(even tho' I am Black/Native American) I'll glady wait for the REAL one to come back on Judgement Day...in the meantime, I'll vote for McLame,since they kicked Romney out of the race.

Mother of 4
I did the same thing as you in 1992, although a little differently: instead of voting for Perot that year (although I did in 1996), I decided I didn't like any of the candidates on the ballot, so I cast a write-in vote for president - for Jeanne Kirkpatrick. While I'm not going to say I regret voting in a way that helped a Democrat into the White House, that doesn't mean I have to repeat it, either. As dissatisfied as I was with George H.W. Bush at the time, in looking back, it's hard for me to see how this country could POSSIBLY have been worse off even with a RINO Republican in the White House than Bill Clinton. In fact, if Clinton had been defeated that year, the nation would not be troubled by Hillary now - and the World Trade Center may very well still be standing to this day.

By the way, for any conservatives out there who won't vote for McCain this year under any circumstances who think that after a few years of an Obama presidency will produce another 1980 and 1994 election result, I'll ask the question: can you name ANY program, agency, institution, etc. that Carter and Clinton foisted on the nation during their presidencies that subsequent Republican presidents, even with Republican-controlled Congresses behind them, have been able to undo or repeal? Jimmy Carter gave away the Panama Canal; have 3 successive Republican presidents been able to get it back? Once liberal policies get enacted, they've proven to have maddening survival power.

In fact, I'll give you the acid test of this principle. At least until Election Day, plenty of same-sex marriages are going to be performed in California. Even if the initiative on that state's ballot to stop this practice passes and is allowed to stand