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Tuesday, June 24, 2008
Thomas Sowell :: Townhall.com Columnist
The Imitators
by Thomas Sowell
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Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


If anyone suggested that Tiger Woods should try to be more like other golfers, people would question the sanity of whoever made that suggestion.

Why should Tiger Woods try to be more like Phil Mickelson? If Tiger turned around and tried to golf left-handed, like Mickelson, he probably wouldn't be as good as Mickelson, much less as good as he is golfing the way he does right-handed.

Yet there are those who think that the United States should follow policies more like those in Europe, often with no stronger reason than the fact that Europeans follow such policies. For some Americans, it is considered chic to be like Europeans.

If Europeans have higher minimum wage laws and more welfare state benefits, then we should have higher minimum wage laws and more welfare state benefits, according to such people. If Europeans restrict pharmaceutical companies' patents and profits, then we should do the same.

Some Justices of the U.S. Supreme Court even seem to think that they should incorporate ideas from European laws in interpreting American laws.

Before we start imitating someone, we should first find out whether the results that they get are better than the results that we get. Across a very wide spectrum, the United States has been doing better than Europe for a very long time.

By comparison with most of the rest of the world, Europe is doing fine. But they are like Phil Mickelson, not Tiger Woods.

Minimum wage laws have the same effects in Europe as they have had in other places around the world. They price many low-skilled and inexperienced workers out of a job.

Because minimum wage laws are more generous in Europe than in the United States, they lead to chronically higher rates of unemployment in general and longer periods of unemployment than in the United States-- but especially among younger, less experienced and less skilled workers.

Unemployment rates of 20 percent or more for young workers are common in a number of European countries. Among workers who are both younger and minority workers, such as young Muslims in France, unemployment rates are estimated at about 40 percent.

The American minimum wage laws do enough damage without our imitating European minimum wage laws. The last year in which the black unemployment rate was lower than the white unemployment rate in the United States was 1930.

The next year, the first federal minimum wage law, the Davis-Bacon Act, was passed. One of its sponsors explicitly stated that the purpose was to keep blacks from taking jobs from whites.

No one says things like that any more-- which is a shame, because the effect of a minimum wage law does not depend on what anybody says. Blacks in general, and younger blacks in particular, are the biggest losers from such laws, just as younger and minority workers are in Europe.

Those Americans who are pushing us toward the kinds of policies that Europeans impose on pharmaceutical companies show not the slightest interest in what the consequences of such laws have been.

One consequence is that even European pharmaceutical companies do much of their research and development of new medications in the United States, in order to take advantage of American patent protections and freedom from price controls.

These are the very policies that the European imitators want us to change.

It is not a coincidence that such a high proportion of the major pharmaceutical drugs are developed in the United States. If we kill the goose that lays the golden egg, as the Europeans have done, both we and the Europeans-- as well as the rest of the world -- will be worse off, because there are few other places for such medications to be developed.

There are a lot of diseases still waiting for a cure, or even for relief for those suffering from those diseases. People stricken with these diseases will pay the price for blind imitation of Europe.

The United States leads the world in too many areas for us to start imitating those who are trailing behind.

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Thomas Sowell is a senior fellow at the Hoover Institute and author of The Housing Boom and Bust.
 
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ying and yang
Everything in life seeks balance. On the left we have the feminine side, governed by emotion, good intentions and feelings. Nothing wrong with this as long as it stays balanced with the masculine side, logic physical strength and results side. Right now our country is way out of balance. We have people on the right trying to act like people on the left. We have lost our sense of balance. Our country is just like a dysfunctional marriage. Unless we regain our balance we will end up like Europe. Take the environment for example, we have the don’t drill, farm, cut, walk, enjoy anything or anywhere, that’s the left’s view. On the right, “get’er done” drill everywhere, farm any place, clear cut the forest, damn the speckled rat. The results of being of balance, too many on the right trying to act like the left, we have high gas prices, just like Europe, high food prices, and soon high unemployment, just like Europe. And coming soon universal health care, JUST LIKE EUROPE. Interesting work Europe, your rope? Just enough ur rope to hang yourself?
Balance is the key, just enough right mixed with just enough left.

Dear Dr. Sowell
Will you please explain this to Jonah Goldberg and other supposed defenders of capitalism? He seems to think that the value of our freedom lies in its status as a tradition, and that if we abandon it, we'll simply end up a bunch of silly cappuccino sippers like the Europeans, no harm done.

"If we kill the goose that lays the golden egg, as the Europeans have done, both we and the Europeans-- as well as the rest of the world -- will be worse off, because there are few other places for such medications to be developed."

Also:
"For [delete: 'some Americans,' add: 'liberals,'] it is considered chic to be like Europeans."

There, I fixed that for you.

Europa
As usual my good friend you are right on target. Too bad the U.S. congress is so stupid it can't help but buy into such nonsense. Keep up the good work. Your thinking is like a breath of fresh air in a smog ladden media. Best regards, Arrow.

Much material: small substance:
*1) All medical decisions should be between
Doctor and patient;
*2 Any and all material injested by any citizen should be by his own choosing;
*3 No government agent or doctor should have the authority to deny any drug or medicine to any individual;
*4 Government should only establish standardization of product; not what will be available or used;
*5 No minimum or maximum wage to be paid or dosage of any drug to be taken should be imposed by government.
*6 Recommendations and reporting of averages and results is a ligitimate government function;
*6 Education and warning should be offered to interested parties in regard to products approved or not approved, but prohibition is not a legitimate government function (as evidenced by the failure of prohibition of alcohol and other drugs provoking mass murder).

The Blackbird
now why did you have to go make a nice gesture.

i was prepared to ignore your comment and then you showed yourself to be a man of character.

apology accepted.

Christian Lib I apologize
for the abortion comment. It was uncalled for.

Mr. Donahue
Hey Christian Lib! Put your brain in gear before running your mouth.
Read my response to Perry White

BTW If you are a veteran as I am I salute you and thank you for your service. If not the salute will be the Pro-Abortion one finger salute of love.

What's wrong with Phil Mickelson?
Dr. Sowell's main point is valid, but using Phil and Tiger as examples seems to be an unintended backhand shot at Phil.

Hillary delenda est.

ralph
i have a red letter bible and you might be interested in checking out the entire movement called "red letter christians" at the following link.

http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?action=about_us.redletterchri stians

to your specific charges that God and his son never intended for societies to help the poor from a governmental perspective i challenge you to show me one verse of scripture that forbids a culture or govenment from doing so.

i come from a family of baptist preachers and we have had discussions on this issue and they are astounded by this piece of conservative philosophy.

ask any clergy you wish if they think that the church should not encourage government to help those in need, i dare say you will find very few who will agree with your point of view.

what is interesting to me is that some conservatives are rabid about government addressing their moral issues i.e. abortion (by the way i am pro-life) the shiavo case, homosexuality and even war, but when asked to help the poor they claim they are being forced at gunpoint to do something that is anti-american.

i don't buy it.

i do not believe the war in iraq has made us safer or was a moral just war.
never-the-less as an american i know we are in this together so continue to support my country even when i disagree with present policies.


lilys
first thank you for your civil response and friendly manner.

i am puzzled though as you say this

"But your ideas of what succeeds and what leads to a "fair" society have been around for milennia."

i am a small business owner and an elected school board member, so i believe i have a pretty good handle on what is important in regards to our country and culture.

its interesting you should bring up our early history as my beliefs on community service are grounded in the american experience.

from my perspective we have always been of two minds in this country.

on one hand we value individual achievment and as an owner and employer i am living proof that those values are alive and well.

on the other hand, early americans were also community minded.
they built churches, schools and even barns together.
it was a community effort to improve society.

these values are not mutually exclusive.

when we allow the least among us to suffer because of our adherence to an interpretation of economics that says "the market sets the wage" then we are not acting in the best spirit of our country.

i will spend more time talking about the religious aspects of this in another post but the teachings of Jesus Christ should also influence our economics to certain degree.

once again thanks for your reasoned and civil response.

Yo Mr. Winkle 'er White
Cont.

For example what Air Force units did you serve in? Squadrons, Wings, etc? When did you serve and and where (bases)? Were you a flying status officer or an administrative type? If you were a pilot what type of aircraft were you qualified to fly? Did you receive any medals for valor? I'm not asking you to breach classified information to answer.

You mentioned you were a vice president for several energy companies. Could you elaborate by listing their names and when you served in that capacity?

What are the names of the corporations and not-for-profit organizations where you served on the board of directors and when did you serve?

When did you attend Colgate and Central Michigan Universities and when did you graduate?

Answers to these questions would be very helpful to me to determine who is lying and who is telling the truth.

Bye Bye Blackbird

Mr. Donahue, when pinned down for specifics or facts, has the typical ward heeler habit of changing the subject, stretching the truth or outright lying. In this instance he whined that that his BIO was not a resume and that he was not applying for a job. Mr. White if you want to engage in a peeing contest over this issue go for it. I’m too old to engage in such juvenile (your word) activities.

BTW if you are a veteran as I am I salute you and thank you for your service. If not then the pro-abortion one finger salute would be appropriate.


Yo Mr. Perry Winkle 'er
excuse me White
you wrote:


"The Blackbird...
What you lack in reasoning skills, you more than make up for with your vivid, expansive, twisted imagination.

You have no idea how silly, juvenile, your last "response to Hal makes you look to us normal people."

Mr. Winkle 'er excuse me Mr. White you were very noble and courageous in sticking your nose into an issue that was none of your business. Apparently you did not read my reasonable request to Mr. Donahue asking him to be more specific than what his BIO revealed about him. Mr. Donahue has been complaining that TH posters have been telling lies about him and challenged them to go to his web page on Huffington Post for the truth about him. For your information I am inserting the request:

"Mr. Donahue. If the following is your biography, I'm sorry to say it doesn't do anything (for me) to refute the so called lies that you claim the TH posters are saying about you. It's too general."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/hal-donahue#blogger_bio


"Hal Donahue is a retired Lieutenant Colonel in the United States Air Force. He served throughout Europe, Asia and the Middle East, on the staff of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and with the British Royal Air Force. Following retirement, Mr. Donahue was employed as a vice president of several major energy companies. Mr. Donahue has served as a member of the board for several corporate and not for profit organizations. He now to devotes his time to assisting military veterans and working to elect veterans and supporters to all levels of political office. He and his wife of 30 years, Marg, reside in Scranton, PA and are the parents of three children. Mr. Donahue is a graduate of Colgate University with a BA in Economics and he received his MS in Administration from Central Michigan University."

To be continued.........

typo:
I meant to site 1880's.

forgive me.

It is my opinion that
this book ought to be required reading in all levels of education, beginning with the simplest of lessons.

Its title could have been, The Science of Spirituality; Science and Health, with Key to the Scriptures. by Mary Baker Eddy.

Read the testimonials of its students back in the 1980's and you come away with more than your dose of healing empowerment.

As you open your mind to ALL possibilities, what ever has been ailing you, simply falls away (into its 'native' nothingness).

All religions benefit by the healing power of this science.


Travis (of Nebraska)
I'm so glad you responded and I'd like to thank you for stating what I believed to be obvious.

Would you mind my adding to this conversation, what Americans are so apt to leave out? ie: A
Spititual element, so vitally important in the process of healing.

I have studied the Science of Christianity in depth now, for 27 years. I was not raised in this denomination. (So, as my ex used to say, "You can take the girl out of Catholisism, but ya can't take the Catholisism out of the girl.") It takes me longer to de program what's been instilled. In spite of this more difficult reprograming, I have experienced hundreds of complete healings from "lymes" all the way down to warts, vanishing in no time BECAUSE I changed (ratically) my base of thought, from focusing on the "dis-ease" TO focusing on the Truth about my spiritually powerful existance: I am the image and likeness of God; the Almighty, Omniscient, Omnipresent, Lord of All.

My question is this: Is Harvard ready to bring spirituality into the healing equation?

Why is that?
Joe Dez: "Even though the Europeans economy is second-rate"

The last time I checked, the euro was $1.45 USD. Seems they are doing something right, or we are doing something terribly wrong. The Brtish pound is around $2.00 now, too.



brohawk
As a medical doctor I must respond to your post. The reason that many drugs are available in europe and not here is due to the fact that the FDA requires long study times to help demonstrate a drug's safety. Of course a reasonable time table must be set. Drugs safe at even 10 years out may show side effects at fifteen years. If the FDA was not as rigorous you would have many more medications to cite as having possible serious long term side effects. Typical of those without an understanding of the process, you want drugs that MAY be safe(after less study time)but then cry foul if they are not later deemed totally safe.

Yo Christian Lib
The ideas that libs herald as "new" are really as old as the days of Plato and Aristotle who warned against their government's largess with taxpayer's money. They rightly said when someone gets something for nothing, that the nation will not survive. That principle is timeless. Yet libs see each tax increase and social program as a personal epiphany that has never been tried before.

As a Christian, it is important to read what Jesus said about giving. It is important to see the attitude Jesus is looking for. Get a red letter edition to make it easier. Jesus never taught the Robin Hood philosophy when giving, namely teaching us to forcibly take money from one person, ie. taxes and give it to anyone else. He wanted His followers to exhibit a giving attitude by requiring them to reach in their pockets and pull out cash or a checkbook and physically and personally give. Think about how much harder it is to do it this way. Also think about how much more blessed you feel doing it. This attitude Jesus sought from us is why the Rich Young Ruler was not able to bring himself to do as Jesus asked in order to follow Him. If you are interested in just "rendering unto Caesar what is Caesar's" through taxes, and having the government spend it on programs they choose, don't make the mistake of thinking you or they are doing God's work. There is no substitute for personal giving.

Christianlib
No, you are not evil. What's more, i doubt any great number of the hard core conservatives around here would say you are. Some would call you naive, or ignorant of how societies and cultures work, succeed, or fail. You seem to me a warm-hearted person who genuinely wants the greatest good for the greatest number. But we all know what the road to Hades is paved with. Unintended consequences resulting from well-intentioned "solutions" are so easy to find i won't bother to note any. But your ideas of what succeeds and what leads to a "fair" society have been around for milennia. When the Mayflower landed, the principle of fair and even distribution of assets was instituted. The colonists were immediately threatened with famine. Surprise! When the level of contribution made no difference in the level of distribution, there was very little to distribute. We have a vibrant country of opportunity, at the price of rewarding differing contribution. Often the individual rewards seem unfair. Why should a ballplayer make millions while a nurse or teacher makes far less. The world is not fair, and well-meaning attempts to make it fair succeed only to a point. Just where the point of reward for merit, luck, or good looks should be, and how much one should be left to suffer for sloth, stupidity, or misfortune is subject to profitable debate. Few care for chaos, anarchy, a totally unfettered market, or totalitarianism, so some form of govt which minimizes these factors seems like a good idea.

the blackbird
hal donohue is who is says he is.

i have seen his column and watched him or years.

know of what you speak before making accusations that are unfounded.

weownthenight
you tell hadley to stay away from negative people and then go on to demean and use negative connotations on aprox. 51 million americans who voted for that notorious liberal john kerry.

i am a liberal because of my religion.
i believe in the soul
i believe in faith and the power of prayer
i believe in john 3:16
i believe america is the greatest country in the history of the world
i believe in the power of postive thinking.
i believe in the sweet sound of a basketball swishing through a net.

to stereotype millions of americans who are liberal as if they all thought and acted alike is not what this country is about.

but then i am a liberal so i must be evil right?

reply to # 172
I take it from your comments that You agree with my overall asement of Government ineffectiveness in economic endevors.
We really need to put some clamps on runaway Government spending; only then will inflation & other ills come in control. My father used to say " inflation is nothing other than the cost of Government, Think about it!"

easy solution to all
i have the perfect solution to all of you who seem to be so bothered by my threads. dont read them... dont even try the constitution gives you this right, even mentions all of you by name. if you are bothered by the way i attract readers to my ideas stop reading them> see how eaily things can be decided if we are both reasonable. on the other hand if you do read them and see a question or two asked in them you might want to take the time to answer it. not required of course but would be nice and would show that you could posible have both halves of your brain instead of just one. just dont read this. oops sorry you already have.. well its your choice.

Nellie - 8:40 am
.
""'Alzheimers' is a myth
'Cancer' is a myth

'Diebetes' is a myth

I know this sounds radical. It is.

Its also true.""

OK, gal. Now you wrote something which is reasonably accurate. Stay out of politics and economics and stick with health. You are much closer to the truth there than in the others.

Now that you have the title and introduction done how about the first chapter. Start by explaining yourself.

Yes, I know something about the subject.

PS: They're not a myth. They're just misunderstood and improperly treated.
The use of words is critical to proper transmission of ideas whether right or wrong. Think, if possible, before using words.
.
.

Jackpine Savage/ Christianlib
"...Minimum wage is for one group of people.

Unskilled young workers who have no marketable skills yet. Yes there is a subset at the other end of retirees working part time, but most min wage workers are just starting out in the work force."

This is a lie. What about the challenged? What about those who really cannot do much more than a minimum wage job? They should starve or be beggars all thier life?

"Regardless of the scare tactics used by many on the left, there aren't "Millions of families" living off minimum wage. "

Oh really I can name names what are you talking about??? Study after study says there is. I will ask you again are the challenged and handicapped to be denied a living wage??? do tell yes or no

"..I made Minimum wage back when it was $2.25/hr and I lived on that for a total of 90 days, then I got this thing called a Raise. If you work longer than 90 days or 6 months max and you're still making minimum wage, it usually means you're not worth more than minimum wage."

Maybe back then because unions were around. Now you get a minimum wage and if you want a raise I will give you another minimum wage for after the first

"This is an unfortunate reality that many libs would like to airbrush away, but it remains a fact."

really supported by what???

"look up the history of "Minimum wage laws" it may open your eyes. :o)"

It did my question is what have you done with your live? What is your resume?

jackpine savage
i see you live in michigan near a national forest and i envy you except in the winter.
i grew up in the midwest in northern illinois and have spent much time in michigan.

here in the southwest many adults are surviving on minimum wage but are working two or three jobs to do it.

check out this study.

http://emlab.berkeley.edu/users/card/papers/minwage-unemp.p df

The Blackbird
"...your non-response to my reasonable request for more specific information regarding your BIO. "

Girl what are you talking about? You ignore all to play mouse??? LMAO

",,,You must have a very poor image of yourself or else you are afraid that some resourceful Town Hall blogger with good investigative skills will find out that none of your BIO has any basis of fact. "

Oh really??? any TH blogger can meet me for coffee any time and I repeatedly offered that..

"Your real name may not be Hal Donahue, although you are always boasting that you are the only one who uses his real name on Town Hall."

Oh no girl - Hal Donahue IS my real name


" Thank God that you are no longer an officer in the USAF(if you were ever one)leading our young men and women in harms way. "

Ahhh see I still am an officer in the Air Force albeit retired. Now you attack my service??? Little blackbird where did you serve and for how long?

"You Mr. Donahue are a phony, liar and a coward and I wouldn't hire you to be a janitor.
Please don't waste your time or mine responding to this post. You will ignored. "

Sorry girly, it is not mister it really is Lt. Col. and I am very tired of your ilk pretending I did not serve. I did and I served well. You want to denigrate my service feel free it reflects on you not me.

Christianlib
Minimum wage is for one group of people.

Unskilled young workers who have no marketable skills yet. Yes there is a subset at the other end of retirees working part time, but most min wage workers are just starting out in the work force.

Regardless of the scare tactics used by many on the left, there aren't "Millions of families" living off minimum wage. I made Minimum wage back when it was $2.25/hr and I lived on that for a total of 90 days, then I got this thing called a Raise. If you work longer than 90 days or 6 months max and you're still making minimum wage, it usually means you're not worth more than minimum wage.

This is an unfortunate reality that many libs would like to airbrush away, but it remains a fact.

look up the history of "Minimum wage laws" it may open your eyes. :o)


i have seen some posters
say if the minimum wage is a good thing why not raise to 50 or 100 dollars.

well common sense tells us that a wage must at least pay for food and shelter or it is worthless.

i could counter with then why not allow employers to pay 1 dollar an hour which was the case prior to the enactment of a minimum wage law.

it was passed along with child labor laws because people were being exploited by employers.

now someone will say it can't happen in 2008 but certainly some americans, who could least afford it, were exploited by lenders in the past few years and are now losing their houses.

the free market is not always free or honest.


hadley
let me welcome you from the left side of the aisle, so to speak.

i am sorry for your job loss but america is a wonderful country and i am sure you will find something new.

also you may look for job training programs or certificated programs at a community college.

there are good people here both conservative and liberal but there are also people on both sides who are haters who only come to insult each other.

stick with those who are positive and want to debate both sides of an issue.

good luck and you will be in my prayers.

Inflation is the WORD


Now I didn’t read every word posted here, but I did a seek, and found the word INFLATION, perhaps the most important word in the economics industry, is only mentioned twice in all these comments.

In 1955 I had an excellent job in the brand new computer industry that paid $500 a month, paid $16,500 for a brand new 4 bedroom house in a Los Angeles Suburb, had a nice car, Beautiful wife and two children, we had vacations, and all we could want.

Now that house would cost maybe $600,000, but I have been off the payroll since 1978, so I have no idea how much that job would pay today. My G’daughter works part time in a hamburger joint, and if she worked full time she would earn about 4 times what I was making in 1955 in that wonderful computer job, with one of the top companies in the USA. (That is why I “retired” at age 50, and we traveled the world.)

So don’t tell me all about the need for a min wage and a Soc Sec check that must be raised each year to keep up with inflation.

Inflation is when more money is available, and there are no more goods produced. So when the Soc Sec check is increased, that means there is more money, but since nothing more is produced, that is Inflation as defined.

Each dollar added to the National debt during WW II can now be paid off with eight cents.

So try your best to keep inflation in check, and the rest will take care of itself.

And by the way, I do like it when my Soc Sec check goes up a few dolars each Jan.


Hadley
""Thanks for the encouragement. Where I live there aren't 99 employers but I will keep looking. I already do save my money. It is a good thing I did.""


I live in a town of 300 surrounded by state forest. :o)
Just stay positive and don't let things get you down, the Nature abhors a vacuum so the one in your wallet will fill back up if you keep at it.

Good things come to those who wait, as long as they work their tails off while they're waiting. :o)



Not Euro minded
Hear This:
I don't want to be like the Europeans, that's why our forefathers left Europe and other areas.
America was once a Sovereign Nation. We had our own weights and measures. I liked that. I accustomed to using 1/2 inch wrench instead of some stupid liter wrench
I counldn't give a rat's behind for what the Europeans do. This is my country and I want it to stay that way. I donot want to belong to a Global Community nor use their type of money I am accustomed to the dollar (although it has been mutilated and devalued by The Fed. Reserve and all those IMF Bankers)
I believe in free trade but not at the expense of America. They (Europe) ought to desire our goods, not us desiring theirs just because it's Cheaper.
Phooey on the North Ameican Union. I think its time for Secession again if that comes.

weownthenight and jackpine
Thanks for the encouragement. Where I live there aren't 99 employers but I will keep looking. I already do save my money. It is a good thing I did.


Hadley
Welcome to Townhall. :o)

Regardless of what some of the "enlightened" among us may say, you'll find everyone here friendly and more than willing to discuss the topics with you.

Sorry to hear of your plight, I know it's little consolation, but I've been there, i know what you're talking about. What happened to you is another case of "Unintended Consequences" that our liberal friends conveniently airbrush from their reality.

Anyone with 2 working brain cells can understand that if something is more expensive, you will purchase less of it.

Keep your chin up hadley, there's a job out there for you, you just need to take the conservative path and actively seek it out. Maybe the job you're looking for is one you create yourself.

Mine was. :o)

Good luck.

To Hadley
Hadley let me clue you in. As an ol' war horse who has been there and done that, let me give some advice. Number one it is not the party per se, but the philosophy: smaller government, lower taxes and just plain old follow the Constitution. As far as getting a job get in front of someone, belly to belly as it were, and ask for a job twenty times a day. You have to get 99 no's before a yes rides by, so the sooner you get to that 99th the sooner you get that job. Now here is the really important part. Stay away from people who are negative, constantly telling you there is no way to succeed. Those are the liberals. Stay away from people who are constantly bashing this country. Those too are the liberals. Never put your future in some body else's hands. They are not going to look out for your well being. Instead it will be their own fanny in the numero uno position. Most of the time it will be the liberals taking from you under the guise of helping you. Never ever stop learning. Only the tax collector and the undertaker will never experience unemployment. And save! Save as though there is no tomorrow because believe me, if a company like GM can be in pension trouble any company can. AVOID LIBERALS LIKE THE PLAGUE.

new to Townhall and politics
I will vote in my first presidential election this year. I was going to vote for Hillary Clinton but since she lost to Barack Obama and so many of her supporters seem to think John McCain will be better I came here to learn more about his party.

All I know is that I lost my job at a small cafe because the owners could not afford all three of their employees when the minimum wage went up so they let me go because I was the newest employee. I have not been able to find another job because all the other small businesses in town are doing the same thing and a couple of them went out of business.

pee wee
you're right about the level of the discussion declining at these threads. But then again you take a large part of the blame as other respond to your idiocy.

But if it is beneath your vast intellect why aren't you with your fellow thinkers at moveon. I am sure there conversation will be far more compatible with the nonsense you post

But typical of the trolls, you show up at our party and complain about the punch

to "Mister Normal"
""PW: Because I've been to this dance before. The notion there's nothing new under the sun is particularly true at TH. ""

Exactly, Nothing New.

Typical scenario, Brain-dead liberal enters the converstion by slinging insults and setting up straw men. Conservatives reply in kind. Suddenly said conservatives are called racists, hate-mongers, nazis, and other "Enlightened liberal terms" by said liberal in his attempt to prove that all conservatives are evil.

It's called a self fulfilling prophesy. Pee Wee comes in here saying "Watch how all these evil conservatives will bash me" then starts the conversation by bashing conservatives.

If some idiot walks up to me and punches me in the nose, I'm not going to invite him to tea like pee wee seems to think we should, I'm punching him back.

But then what do I know? I'm just a bitter gun totin' redneck xenophobe. right perry?

What a twit.

pee wee
I guess you have no problem with the idle rich in europe who have many times the wealth of the working folks there. They have so much money they just live and not work. I suppose you have a plan to make them have more in common with the average european by taking away their wealth.

The Blackbird...
You ask a question. I answer it. Then you say you don't care what I think.

...not just that you don't care, mind you, but you don't give a rat's behind...

So there you have it. This is what I mean when I contrast The Blackbirds of the world to normal people.

Perry White! Who gives
a rats-rear-end what you think. You normal?
Ha! Ha!

hwm982xx...
"...Why doesn't (Perry White) just present his points and let it go at that, without hedging his input by knocking anyone else? "

PW: Because I've been to this dance before. The notion there's nothing new under the sun is particularly true at TH.

Liberal Comments
...Most comments from liberals use irrational and nasty stuff to make their points. It is almost universal. i.e.: 'Perry White Location: MO Reply # 177 Date: Jun 24, 2008 - 5:52 PM EST ""Now I expect to hear it, loud and abusive, from those "real Americans" who've persuaded themselveS.........."'
...Why doesn't he just present his points and let it go at that, without hedging his input by knocking anyone else?

The Blackbird...
What you lack in reasoning skills, you more than make up for with your vivid, expansive, twisted imagination.

You have no idea how silly, juvenile, your last response to Hal makes you look to us normal people.

Mr. Donahue! Thank you for
your non-response to my reasonable request for more specific information regarding your BIO. You directed me to the Huffington Post site to ascertain who has been lying and who has been telling the truth. You must have a very poor image of yourself or else you are afraid that some resourceful Town Hall blogger with good investigative skills will find out that none of your BIO has any basis of fact. Your real name may not be Hal Donahue, although you are always boasting that you are the only one who uses his real name on Town Hall. Thank God that you are no longer an officer in the USAF(if you were ever one)leading our young men and women in harms way.
You Mr. Donahue are a phony, liar and a coward and I wouldn't hire you to be a janitor.
Please don't waste your time or mine responding to this post. You will ignored.

What's so bad about Europe?
Englishmen accused of crimes have more safeguards protecting their rights than Americans.

Frenchmen wouldn't put up with a failed rogue president like Bush for a month, let alone eight years.

And the minimum wage DOES have its uses even if it thwarts the white-slaver impulses of most laze fair CEOs making a thousand times more per hour than their average line workers.

But Sowell's an important thinker because he understands the importance of preserving unfettered an economic system that works spectacularly for a teeny, tiny minority of the population...and leaves the rest to scramble for pennies that fall from the table.

Now I expect to hear it, loud and abusive, from those "real Americans" who've persuaded themselves the obscene wealth of the top one percent has absolutely no relationship to the abject poverty of the masses.

Christianlib of 11:21
A minimum wage prevents employers from hiring people to do jobs which are not worth an arbitrarily set wage. This may be common, or it may be, but it is true.

Here in Florida, and in DC, the de facto wage for a high school student at a fast food place is above the legal minimum wage. This makes any study of minimum wage useless. During periods when the minimum wage and/or welfare payments exceeded the pay for entry level jobs, my observation of the impact was enormous. If a janitor makes $5/hr, a secretary makes more, and data entry person makes more yet and a programmer more yet. If the janitor gets a raise to the secretary's pay, somehow, the secretary is soon making more again, and the increase bounces up the ladder. Do you seriously support the notion that increasing th eminimum wage to $100/hr would have no visible effect?

Minimum wages are doing .....
... just what they were designed to do.

They're keeping young uneducated minorities out of the work force.

If you read a history book written before the "PC age" yo9u would know that Minimum wages were part of a basic scheme of eugenics during the "New Deal" the minimum wages were actually promoted on the point that they kept unskilled "Undesirables" out of the work force.

Yet lefties call conservatives Fascists.

Who says politics can't be FUNNY?!

The Europeon Neo-Soviet's enslaved
..... are as different from Western-USA-descended Americans, from second and third-generation African-born former colonialists and from those New Zealanders and Australians whose ancestors' arrivals in Australasia predate World War Two as are pansies from horn toads.

Their raison d'être (little Cheese-eater Surrender Monkey lingo for yah there) and the driving energy of their EUranial is shadow-affective hesperophoba and their collective 'racism' (which also covers their morbid envy and consequential loathing of the America to which every one of them owes both his life and his every material asset -- and of all things American) is so ingrained into their psyches as to have become invisible to them all.

They are absolutely owned and operated and collectively controlled by their intellectually and morally insolvent political masters' exploitation and institutionalization, at Brussels and Strasbourg, of the insidious prejudices, hidden hatreds and repressed rage that motivates, fuels and drives them, every one.

That America's self-and-own-culture (totalitarian socialist) liberals are so attracted to dead and decadent Eurabia's for nine or more decades America-dependent degenerate dregs but illustrates how compelling that misery loves company.

It's Black and White!

Minimum Wage causes Unemployment
If kids could get first jobs at 4 or 5 bucks and hour they could be worth hiring. The Gov't could say that people under 20 were exempt from the FICA tax. It's a long time before they retire. Very, very few 16 or 17 year olds are worth 10 or 12 dollars an hour.

Bart and Minimum wage
What does minimum wage do? Temprarily gives entry level workers and increase but eventually just increases inflation and raises the average salary level. What does this accomplish..now we get to the real impact. As it drives up wages it pushes more and more people into higher income brackets increasing the tax rates on everyone including the entry level. It is an artificial feel good gimmick.

Cube Commander / SSGT
No way marijuana could cause something like MRCMRC. I think we are looking at some serious chemicals or simply a defective brain.

...selah...

Your Most Humble, etc.,,

George Washington

P.S. MDoggg called me an idiot today...made my day! Carry on...

Hal Donahue writes:
I am not applying for a job interview. Decide as you will realising I am far more forthright then most here.

For a Retired, Passed Over, REMF, Garritrooper, Southern Hating Bigot, Murtha As$ Kissing, Uber Liberal, Alleged Oil Company VP, Citer Of His Own Articles as Proof, Democratic Party Fanaticm maybe.

Great Article
I see as usual you have brought out the Liberals & "Consrevatives?" in force today.It certainly is disgraceful how most of the responses do not relate to the subject matter. Bye the way folks neither does this reply relate to Dr. Sowell's article but; to the humor of seeing all your drivel towards each other.

Your basic economics lesson concerning minimum wages has been missed by most respondance of the post. Perhaps they really don't care, please keep attempting to educate all of us of the realities of Government economic fallicies & failures.

The Blackbird
"..I sincerely hope
I haven't caused you an imposition by asking for more specifics regarding your BIO. It's always easier to back up the truth than try to fabricate facts to back up lies. Surely this shouldn't be a problem for you."

I provide FAR more personal info than almost everyone here. What next my tax receipts for the following years? Not a problem simply enough

"...As I said earlier your BIO is too general to help me draw any conclusions that you are the one being truthful."

I am not applying for a job interview. Decide as you will realising I am far more forthright then most here.

JMO51
I'm too lazy to go back through this entire thread for an exact quote, but it seems to me you wrote somewhere that you are a business owner?

If that is true, I assume you know the difference between "revenues" and "costs"?

I have been involved in restaurant and retail management for about 2/3rds of my working life, and I can assure that occasional price lowering ("Promotional Sales") can and do increase revenue enough to offset the percentage increase of costs of goods - thereby increasing profit dollars.

Somehow you seem to have missed something in your equation.

It does not logically follow that increased tax revenue automatically reduces deficits - UNLESS SPENDING ("Costs") remain static.

I'll put this in simple terms even a liberal can understand.

Assume you have $100 in revenue but have costs of $110. Now assume through lowering taxes, you generate $120 in revenue. Following this example, you should now have an additional $10 to apply to the deficit. This is what can happen in the real world with really big numbers.

However, if you decide to increase your spending from $110 to $125 - you have increased revenue, but are still generating new deficits.

This is what is happening - and it is the fault of BOTH the Dems and GOP who are drunkards spending OPM.

You have latched onto the wrong myth, JMO51.

Tax and Spend vs. Spend and Borrow
Which is more fiscally responsible.

Tax and Spend or Spend and Borrow (from China)

Mr. Donahue! I sincerely hope
I haven't caused you an imposition by asking for more specifics regarding your BIO. It's always easier to back up the truth than try to fabricate facts to back up lies. Surely this shouldn't be a problem for you.
You know I've been patiently waiting for responses to my very reasonable questions to help me decide who's lying and whose telling the truth. As I said earlier your BIO is too general to help me draw any conclusions that you are the one being truthful.

to the town drunk (aka Hal Donahue)
I usually don't waste my time posting to someone who has a negative IQ like yourself and the "Wonder Wodent", but since you decided to try your best to deride my remark with your alcohol induced wisdom I'll reply in kind.


LMAO (hic) Hal you're so funny LMAO (hic)
What you're doing is called PROJECTING hal, putting your faults onto others because your life is so screwed up it's the only way you have to increase your self esteem.

Thank you, the only thing that would make me feel better, would be for you to call me a Nazi like perry white does.

It must be Really Lonely being YOU.


Alaska, yes - Europe, no
The only reason to go to Europe is to offer help to those poor lost souls. It's bad enough that Hell is only a sideways move from Europe; can you imagine what it's like to have no hope of Heaven?

Jackpine Savage
LMAO, LMAO, LMAO OH STOP IT LOL GOSH YOU ARE SO FUNNY lmao

"...The first rule of liberalism, never admit mistakes, just blame Bush..."

you conservatives always seem to take one of your greatest weaknesses and blame liberals as having that weakness LMAO LOL too funny

GW #146
Now you went and let the cat out of the bag. If the green dimwits find out France does it we are never going to make any progress.

JMO51
explain record IRS revenues! Please, I can't wait to hear this one.

George has it Right
No wonder you were the father of our country. :o)

Liberals remind me of some people I know who are never happy unless they have smething to Bit** about.

In other words, they're happiest when they're miserable.

Maybe some day they'll grow up and realize even marx finally discovered marxism was a bad idea.

Oh wait, no they won't, they're Liberals! The first rule of liberalism, never admit mistakes, just blame Bush.

JMO51 writes:
Subject: Primus54
One myth is that lowering taxes raises revenues. If that were the case the Bush tax cuts would have lowered the deficit from the Clinton Years. Reagan lowered taxes and the deficits soared.

Mainly because there was no corresponding cuts in spending.

JMO51 I take exception
Taxes (government income) is a different animal from government spending. It is an observation that each time the federal tax rate was reduce the economy increased profitability and expanded. This expanded economy produced more tax income than the previous higher tax did. Now to the other side of the equation IF (BIG IF) the government kept expenses the same then you would see a decrease in the debt. But (big BUT) neither party seems to be able to limit expenditures. BTW expenses during the lastr 8 years include the 500 billion for Iraq that everyone complains about.

the Imitators (Thomas Sowell)
I do agree with Mr. Sowell -- for the most part. "Blind imitation" of European concepts and beliefs, just because it is 'chic' or 'cosmopolitan', is foolish. However, there are areas in European life from which even we Americans can learn a good lesson. One of these areas is higher education.

The notion that EVERYBODY is college material is simply wrong. As a college educator I know that a three-tiered education system, such as the one in Germany, would do wonders for the many young people in our country who neither have the desire nor the abilities to become "college educated." Since most American high school students have few options but attend some kind of college ( there are few trade schools; systematically set-up apprenticeship programs, and few schools specifically geared to particular fields of employment), many under-prepared highschool students struggle mightily in college and eventually drop out.

Another consequence of not having European-like education options is that a U.S.college education has become greatly devalued. Faced with ever more poorly prepared high school graduates, many colleges and universities have lowered academic standards and rigor. Add to that grade inflation geared to affording a college degree to even the most unlikely-to-succeed students, and it is no wonder that the value and meaning of a college degree has been diminished. On top of everything, the bizarre notion that equal opportunity should also go hand-in-hand with equal outcomes has further contributed to the erosion of the meaning of what it means to be a college graduate. I call it "egalitarianism run amok."

Finally, I recommend George Leef's article "Keep 'Em Out." His blunt assessment that not every individual can or should attend college is shared by many Americans, amongst them many educators.

Dr. Sylvia Wasson


Primus54
One myth is that lowering taxes raises revenues. If that were the case the Bush tax cuts would have lowered the deficit from the Clinton Years. Reagan lowered taxes and the deficits soared.

The question is not how low do you want your taxes? Thats a no brainer. The question is what do you want your government to do and how much will it cost to do it?

The claim is that Dems tax and spend. So what do Republicans do Spend and borrow?



Cube Commander....
...your 12:12 post just about sums it up.

We could all spend a million hours talking to liberals, to no avail.

They are, as you say, "just a miserable bunch".

You know, if you think about it, it is a perfect parallel for the Obama campaign. Everything has to be wrong, else no need to "change" everything.

Without their eternal pessimism, liberals would have no reason for existence.

Your Most Humble and Obedient Servant,

George Washington

christianlib writes:
i have yet to hear a liberal
say we should emulate europe.
that is a conservative myth.

now liberals are more open to new ideas than conservatives so i can see where some liberals would look at other countries and examine what might or might not work here but the idea that liberals want to be more like europeans is simply false.

Libs may not say it explicity, but they want what Europe has, higher taxes, government run health care, government controlled media, open borders, weak defense, and rampant unemployment.

The Grass Is Not Always Greener.

When a love affair or marriage falls apart,it is usually because one of the two has fallen out of love. There is usually a third person in the picture,though that's not my point.

The unhappy one starts finding fault and carping about everything they were happy about at one time. They see greener grass elsewhere.No longer do they appreciate their present circumstances.

Usually,after they go on to fulfill their dreams somewhere else,they soon are disillusioned and regret the change. Most times though,they find it is true that'you really CAN'T go home again.'

These people who cannot find anything about America to love,always see the grass as greener in other countries. Most times they will find,it is just a mirage.




george washington writes:
MRCMRC...
Regarding your post, "when you can write as well as Tiger Woods can golf",etc....

Thomas Sowell CAN write as well as Tiger Woods plays golf.

Selah...

Your Most Humble, etc.,

George Washington

Woods isn't doing much golfing these days.

i have yet to hear a liberal
say we should emulate europe.
that is a conservative myth.

now liberals are more open to new ideas than conservatives so i can see where some liberals would look at other countries and examine what might or might not work here but the idea that liberals want to be more like europeans is simply false.

hitchhiker
marx and engel--come on hitchhiker--- i respect you but that is going a little to far.

if you disagree with thier findings of fact then provide an alternative don't accuse them of being marxists.

here is a case study

http://emlab.berkeley.edu/users/card/papers/minwage-unemp.p df

MRCMRC...
Regarding your post, "when you can write as well as Tiger Woods can golf",etc....

Thomas Sowell CAN write as well as Tiger Woods plays golf.

Selah...

Your Most Humble, etc.,

George Washington

Sowell is Right !
Europe ''CREATED " most of the Worlds Problems that still exist today . They owned much of the Wealth of other Countries making them Slaves in 61 different Countries .
Remember America is a little over 300 years old and Europe is 3000 years old .
America had a British slave Tax before we kicked them out . European Stole their wealth . America Created our own Wealth . Look at Mexico , South America , Africa , Asia , India and Yes even Vietnam causing America to go there as well after the elite hated French stole and destroyed Nam .
The British in India created Pakistan . The Dutch in Africa's $$ Slavery to the world .
Europe became PACIFIST Countries after ww 1 and WW 2 .
So America bailed them out Twice, 4.3 Million death and wounded later costing America 6 Trillion dollars back then that would be 20 -22 trillion dollars now .
The Europeans plundered the worlds wealth .
America never once did and after winning 3 wars rebuilt those countries .We owned the Oil countries and never took a penny .
In fact 11 American Oil COs built all the Oil systems in the middle east since their owners were Camel Jockeys who very very primitive and lived in desert huts . The first Oil wells came out of America .
In Germany and Japans cases America $ built them more modern that our own factories.. While American CO. had to complete with Them unfairly and many Industries went broke .
There was no Europe until 20 years ago without America !
America is only 5 % of the world Population but exports 27 % of the world products . 73 % of all Miracle drugs have come from American drug countries . America has 6 of the top ten Drug co.s
The computer Industry all over the world ... AMERICAN CREATED . The Phone and Light Bulb .. American created ...... TV America created ....... Planes , Trains Cars and Trucks , Sky SCRAPPERS . American created .
Massive farm production ... America ...... The Line Production by Ford .
IN TRUTH EUROPE WILL BECOME RUSSIA'S BABY !


Funny how...
...whenever liberals are rhapsodizing about how wonderful France is, they forget to metion that she derives 70% of her electricity through nuclear generation, isn't it?

Selah...

Your Most Humble, etc.,

George Washington

Hal:
How's the Retired, Passed Over, REMF, Garritrooper, Southern Hating Bigot, Murtha As$ Kissing, Uber Liberal, Alleged Oil Company VP, Citer Of His Own Articles as Proof, Democratic Party Fanatic?

Minimum wage
Richt to privacy, it's my body, private4 contracts, taking w/o just compensation, Federalism, US Constitution, etc.

Under what section of the US Constitution does it give the Feds the right to tell a woman how much she can rent (sell) her body and time for when she is not even engaged in interstate commerce?

Under what principle can a State also involve itself? Apparently, I can donate my time (the most personal property I own) for free, but can't put my own value on it in trade unless it's zero or more than some minimum?

Don't bother - you won't find the authority anywhere.

Hal Donahue
Your 1:33 PM EST reply was "weak" - even by your own low standards... and that is being generous.


"LOL" & "LMAO" are © 2008, Hal Donahue
(Used without permission)


Funny how...
liberals love to talk about how great France is, but how they forget to mention that France generates 70% of her electricity with nuclear power, isn't it?

Your Most Humble, etc.

George Washington

In most of old Europe it
is not permissible to be different. The masses must pull together to support the whole. There is little spontaneity. Those who raise their heads, lose them.
Political correctness is Europe's safe answer to the vagaries of life. Everything and everybody must be made to conform and be spared the harsher realities. It is the state's duty to root out original thinkers and replace them with benign dullards.
Like some latter day Greek play these fops twitter and prate while somewhere behind the lisping chorus, violent men with intentions of conquest gather their robes and smile their secret smiles.
When young Americans admire and wish to emulate the mindless European neo-shuffle to the box cars we must as a nation be revolted; both by Europe's once-again descent into religious darkness and by our own potential 'Brown Shirt' army.

MRCMRC Mercy,Mercy!!
I have tried for days to read some of your posts,to no avail. It is impossible.In a forty line post,I should be able to read one or two. I have some advice for you. Unsolisted,of course.

Look at your keyboard,please. You have a 'shift' key.That will captalize words that need capital letters,such as beginning a sentence and proper nouns,such as names of persons and places.

Now,you see the long bar at the bottom of your keyboard? That is a space bar. Hit that a couple of times after three or four lines and it will make a paragraph.

I suspect you know all this,as sometimes your posts are at least decipherable,though they are never serious. I look forward to your next post to see if you have paid attention.

Your merciful servant,Rowly.

Liberals will never "Get it"
Liberals in this country constantly tell us we need to emulate europe.

OK, let's take a look.
In france, muslim immigrants along with other dark skinned races are "welcomed" into the country, then told they have to remain in their segregated ghettoes. If you're a brown skinned immigrant, forget trying to get a job, you don't qualify.

England, the country the libs constantly hold up as the model we need for our health care system is now debating on whether to treat certain patients like the Obese, Elderly, alcoholics, and drug users, because they don't have funds to treat everyone.

Then we can look back a little in time to some other european policies the libs want to quietly support, such as Eugenics.

Europe is slowly sliding into chaos, yet our liberal friends here still think we need to emulate them.

I was always taught to emulate Successful people, yet our lib friends would rather emulate the likes of Biggie Smalls instead of Bill Gates.

This just proves that most liberals in America suffer from Rectal-Cranial Inversion.

Minimum Wage Misers
Come on, why set the minimum wage at only $7.50/hr? Who can really live on that? I don't understand why the minimum wage supporters are so miserly. If raising the minimum wage has no negative effects on the employment of those receiving minimum wages, why not set it at $25 or $50, or, better yet, so that no one earns less than $100,000 per year. Gee, let's not be so niggardly that we would arbitrarily restrict the incomes of the least fortunate. If we can improve their lot by passing laws, at a minimum, we should set the minimum wage equal to somewhere around 110% of the average U. S. wage. Once we do that, let's really get serious and fix the big problems. Why not a law against cancer? Imagine how much misery we could so easily prevent by making a law against cancer?

Cube Commander
LMAO!!! HIC!!!!

That was too funny!

JMO51 writes:
"Your tax plan sounds great in OZ. But here in the real world it just is not that simple."
-----

Naw, JMO51. The problem is complicated people turning a simple solution into some kind of other-worldly problem that would take a million doctorate thesis to figure out.

There are only two ways to operate in the "black" within a government bureaucracy - raise revenues or lower spending.

History has so far taught us that lowering taxes raises revenue, but we don't yet know at what point on a graph the opposite becomes true.

As far as spending is concerned, the projected federal budget is to spend roughly $11,600 per person (not per taxpayer). That works out to almost $4,000 per month for a family of four. That comes out of our pockets whether paid directly to the IRS or through captured taxes when we buy goods and services.

That's just FEDERAL spending.

How much is enough?

On one thing we both agree - our tax codes are arcane in their complexity and need radical reforms.

Primus54
"...I just found it interesting that someone took the time to respectfully ask you for details that you didn't seem fit to answer."

Why would I provide even more personal information when all you "tough guys" LMAO hide yours

"..Your response is little more than your usual modus operandi - you know, when you post opinions as "facts", yet refuse to provide proof - calling upon your debater to "do the work" to disprove you."

Hey the first few times you folks had me scurrying round finding refs worked LOL. After a couple this old soldier says find your own.

"You wouldn't make it long as an attorney with that mindset - but it is uniquely you "

Why would I ever even consider being an attorney when I can do this LOL

No Bus Drivers???
I am dismayed to see the Nagin excuse that ‘the bus drivers couldn’t get to the buses’ still being used. Clearly, if you accept that it was the City of New Orleans and Mayor Nagins duty to have a disaster evacuation plan in place, then getting the bus drivers to the buses should have been a part of that plan. That it was not is not an excuse for the Mayor, it is failure on his part. If there was no way to insure that the drivers could get to the buses, then using those buses for evacuation was an inadequate plan. If there was no viable plan that Nagin could have had in place, then how was GWB supposed to do it? The truth is that the evacuation plan to use those buses should have been executed earlier when the drivers could have gotten to the buses. To not have a plan, to have a plan that was not viable or to fail to execute the plan within the timeframe necessary to make it viable are all failures on the part of the City of New Orleans and Mayor Nagin. So they reelected him.


SSGT
I would assume that even if they haven't legalized it, he has been growing it in his mother's basement, which MRCMRC calls home.

christianlib
Sorry, I saw the link in the next post. Exactly who I thought is was. I visit their website occasionally for a laugh at what some economists can torture data to come up with to support their preferred world view of Marx and Engel. It is quite amusing to see some educated folks so puffed up in their own self importance and wisdom, they actually think they can plan everything out for the rest of us.

One question. If the prevailing average wage for unskilled laborers has risen over time to about $6 hr, and the state or federal government has consistently raised the minimum wage to $6.25, is that solid evidence that government minimum wages have no effect on employment? If they move the target to whatever the market is, then, one would not find any adverse impact. So, why not make it $50. That would help out us poor folks even more.

Georgetwin
hey dude! Answer me a question, please.

Did they legalize dope smoking in MN? The reason I ask is, MRCMRC keeps sending these really funny posts, that make no sense at all. I think dude is high all the time. Just curious!

"...the best research..."
Note that this "best research" is never identified except. Are we all to take YOUR "expert" word for this nebulous "best research?"

"If the minimum wage were increased nationally to $7.25:
o 14.9 million workers would receive a raise,"
Note that the food and other expenses of those who are at the lowest pay scales, and can least afford it, would rise, possibly higher than their income gains. And since they have to pay higher taxes on the phantom income increase, they end up being worse off than before the raise.

"o 80% of those affected are adults age 20 or over, and
o 7.3 million children would see their parents income rise."

And how about those 20% that end up being let go and out of a job because the job they perform isn't worth the increase the small business owner must pay him or her?
Ah, there's the rub.

"The best recent research on the economic impact of the minimum wage shows positive effects without job loss."
Now you may be able to hoodwink yourself with the other figures, but this is a flat out lie.
And so is the rest of your undocumented and contrary to fact baloney.

Go try to sell your Marxist, socialist claptrap somewhere that you can find a gullible audience willing to swallow this phony nonsense.

Ssgt-Primus-CubeCommander-LJ7392-Others
I see The Fat Blowhard is into his usual act. Hating America, Dodging Questions, etc. With Europe QUICKLY becoming a Muslim Republic. Hal Drunkahue is hopeful that Omar The Tentmaker will set up shop in London. That way he won’t have to travel so far to get his clothes made. Also, Europeans drink more than Americans and YOU KNOW Drunkahue is down with that. Last but not least, BOHICA is not only a Foreign Policy in Europe it is a lifestyle. There is positively no doubt, Hal Drunkahue and Jimmy Carter would be MUCH happier in Europe.

ta dum
I guess we are allowed to have different purposes in mind when we spend our time writing these thrads. espeially me as my time is so very valuable. i have to teach so many , and they are all off to such poor starts. if you wish, take the time to count the number of responses i get for ny threads compared with anybody elses. . on balamce as that is my objective , ill take the misspelled words amd the lack of capitals. do you see any in this thread. . did anybody bother to try and answer my thopughts about the lies that have been spread about the use of muslim law in europe . i distinctly called three of dozems of you liars because you clained directly or indirectly that was being used , or in immineent danger of being used was muslim law. . i wiped out your nonsensical arguements nobody would touch it not even to acknowledge that it might be legitimate. why not? because you cant get by my spelling? bull? youd dont because you cant, and therefor ive done what i set out to do. and all without spel check.

christianlib
writes, "study after study has been done on mininum wage that show it has minimal effect on employment or higher wages. "

You then quote a study without citing it. What is the source. People like the Economic Policy Institute are always cooking up studies supposedly showing the benefits of state control. I am not surprised that the relatively modest increases we have seen have not been shown to have a statistically significant impact on employment but, what about the underlying theory to support it?

Let's look at this quote, "As stressed in the Card and Krueger book cited above, these studies reveal employment elasticities that hover about zero, i.e., they solidly reject the conventional hypothesis that any increase in the minimum wage leads to job losses among affected workers."

So, according to this, raising the minimum wage to $25 per hour would have no effect on employment. If you believe this, you need to stop, step back, and see if it passes the smell test.

more on minimum wage
Over 650 economists, including five Nobel Prize winners and six past presidents of the American Economics Association, recently signed a statement stating that federal and state minimum wage increases “can significantly improve the lives of low-income workers and their families, without the adverse effects that critics have claimed” (EPI 2006).

http://www.epi.org/content.cfm/bp178

Primus54
Your tax plan sounds great in OZ. But here in the real world it just is not that simple. A lot of what looks like tax cutting is in fact tax shifting. The Government lowers taxes by cutting funding to say parks. The parks need a budget to operate so they increase their enty fees and licenses.

If you fix the tax rate save a rainy day fund what do you do it your rainy day fund is not enough say in time of war. So you do what GWB did and you borrow from the Chinese and shift the burden to the next generation.

I think that what most people want is a good return on their investment in government in the form of services.

When conservatives talk about cutting spending what they really mean is cutting services bit they don't have the balls to tell the truth.

There are some people who believe in a minimalist government. A national defense based upon a modest foreign policy, no entitlements and few services. If you believe in that you probably supported Ron Paul the most ideologically consistent candidiate in either party this election season.

I don't agree with that I want a government that is efficient but more robust. That includes a NASA, FDA, FEMA, EPA, Etc. We will never agree on this point. It is a fundamental difference. That said it is fine for me to point our hypocracy in the form of those who favor smaller government except in the own district, or for corporate welfare.

I think most people want the following: a tax code they think is fair. A tax rate that gives them a good return on their investment in government. A government for the people and not dominated by special interests.

My own preference would be a simplier tax code. I am tired of spending so many hour preparing for the taxes on my business. I would like to put the tax accountants and estate planners out of business they are productive people let them find something else to do.



more facts on minimum wage
There is a growing view among economists that the minimum wage offers substantial benefits to low-wage workers without negative effect. Although there are still dissenters, the best recent research has shown that the job loss reported in earlier analyses does not, in fact, occur when the minimum wage is increased. There is little question that the overall impact of a minimum wage is positive, as the following facts make clear:

If the minimum wage were increased nationally to $7.25:
o 14.9 million workers would receive a raise,
o 80% of those affected are adults age 20 or over, and
o 7.3 million children would see their parents income rise.

Families with affected workers rely on those workers for over half of their earnings.

46% of all families with affected workers rely solely on the earnings from those workers.

Some minimum wage workers remain in low-wage jobs for substantial periods.

The best recent research on the economic impact of the minimum wage shows positive effects without job loss.

Even the research that suggests a negative labor market effect shows only a minimal impact that is more than offset by the higher wage levels.

The states that have adopted higher-than-federal minimum wages have seen low-wage workers’ incomes rise with no negative side-effects.


Just some thoughts
To everyone: it seems you are so busy criticizing every one, including the essayist, you glossed over the only real-life example of the danger of raising the minimum wage. hardthought's entry at 1009 am is short and to the point. Other liberal ideas could probably have similar examples showing their inherent danger to us and our economy.

Jim another example
of laws in Europe and how they effect US!. I worked for a large international company. They started cutting back and attempted to reduce staff globally on a consistent basis. When they tried it in Europe they were told you cant do that or your footprint will be permanently reduced AND we wont buy your product. So what did they do? Yep you guessed it they just cut more in the US!!!

On Drug Companies
What liberals tend to forget (or more likely, to ignorant to think about) are the number of drugs that hundreds of hours of research go into and millions of dollars go into that do not get approved. That is a lot of time and money they will never be able to recoup. The same liberals that complain about FDA approval are the same ones that want to sue, sue sue the drug companies in cases where drugs have killed or injured those taking them. In summary, liberals are a miserable bunch. Always looking for someone to blame.

The real World

I don’t know when I have read the comments on a TH column, where my response could be a thousand pages.

What nonsense, 80% of you have no idea what the world is about, and almost none of you have any idea what it is like to live in Europe.

I have visited patients in more than one European Hospital, and they are housed like in an Army Barracks, dozens in a room.

For those who would like to opt out of Soc Sec, that would mean that someone who would like an extra $10 to spend now, would opt out, and at retirement you would have to step over them lying in the street. The only thing more stupid than a Government program or regulation, is the stupidity of the citizens that made those things necessary.

Here’s a true story about Germany.

After the mechanic fixed our minor problem, I asked why he didn't hire more people, and make better use of his building.

His response, “If I hire the wrong person, the law makes it almost impossible to get rid of him.

Since I can't hire another 'me,' I have less problems if I just do it myself.”

Rather than rent to the wrong person, many apartments are left empty - one of Sweetie's Cousins had an unwanted tenant in an upstairs bedroom for 15 years, no way to get rid of him.

Too much government control explains at least some of the unemployment and housing problems in Germany.



JMO51
I'm responding to two of your posts.

As for tax rates and tax revenue, I am in favor of lowering all rates until the effect of tax reductions no longer causes tax revenues to increase. When that occurs, we will have discovered the ideal tax rate to sustain our government while allowing taxpayers to maximize their take-home pay and further increasing economic growth.

Whatever tax revenue is produced from this method IS the budget (less 2% for a "rainy day" fund) - and Congress should be constitutionally prevented from spending one dime over this budget.
-----

On the subject of minimum wage, I've yet to read a reasoned argument defending the setting of this arbitrary "magic number".

If we are going to have a minimum wage - why not set it at $25 per hour - or $50 per hour?

There IS a reason nobody proposes this idea - and it is the same reason there shouldn't be a minimum wage set by the government at all.

Butcher
Startin to get nasty huh?:
"You good ol boys are in rare form this morning. Attacking ol Hal that way, so what great contributions have any of you made.
SSGT said lets compare DD-214, you got one, I do and I'll tell you right now, It wont buy me a cup of coffee, does yours. if so where and I'l bring mine."
Mine got me a lifetime pass to any VFW in the country any time I choose to go hang out with you old phart Nam Vets. At least I consider 15 to 20 years my elders old pharts. 9 months in the Persian Gulf and various other tours in locations that I cannot specifically declare do to the sensative nature of the visits. 15 years, 7 months and 4 days worth of dashing around the world before med boarded out, old phart! : - )

Butcher
I don't know how long you've been blessing us with your company on these threads - but I suspect you've not yet come to really know the moveon.org crowd that frequents these columns.

Perhaps you missed my comments to JMO51 supporting your position - or did you consider them also "shock jock" entertainment?

C'mon, Butcher. You should treat a fellow Ohioan with a little more compassion early on!

Cheers.

Let's not forget
Not only did we bail the europeans out a couple of times from having to learn German, but because we continue to protect them with our european military bases to keep them from having to learn Russian, the europeans have chosen not to spend the percentage of their GDP on their own national security. The U.S. military presence in europe has saved them untold billions of euros in defense spending.

To Butcher
My intent was not to stereotype or insult anyone or their wardrobe. I used the term "cowboy" because our own mainstream media used it that way to belittle Reagan in his time and Bush Jr in his time and so did many non-Americans. To many outside America the term "cowboy" has come to represent Americans as low brow, uneducated etc. not classy and refined as many Europeans view themselves. This is unfortunate but true. Next time I'll use a better metaphor. By the way I like western fashion myself and wear it on occasion.

MRCMRC WRITES ?


MRCMRC
Location: MN
Reply # 26
when you can be as good a writer as mr woods is a golfer then feel free to write what you will,about him and what you imasgine
_____________________________________________________________
Wow your own personal Hate , Elitism , Arrogance is leftist "Typical black Liberation ... NAACP . Al Sharpton and Rev Wright B/S and Columbia UNI pure Crap !
You obviously know nothing about ''writing" Since Thomas Sowell has written 33 books and 27 were best sellers . You few words could NOT be sold if were paying $ 20.00 a book to take one home .
His Book on Economics has been though over 17 reprints and is one of the 8 best books on Economics ever written in America and it still sells for $ 34.00 many years later worth every penny .
His White Liberals and Black Rednecks was a best seller for 18 months . All historic facts and what $$ welfare has done terribly to blacks in America .Inslaved them !
Tiger Woods and Thomas Sowell have many things in Common .... They both have common sense are at the top of their games . work hard and are very humble men .
How would I know that ? Thomas Sowell sent me a personal birth day card when I turned 65 and I watched Tigers two hour Bio and have folowed him closely .
I had told Thomas Sowell in a email ... even thought I was a White Blue Eyed male I would wanted him to be my father meaning I would have been biracial . His guidance , ethics and values have guided me and many of my white and black friends to be devout Thomas Sowell fans .
Me .........I read most of Thomas Sowells books especially on Economics while coming from Nothing to great wealth as did Clarence Thomas (I know you hate him as well ) Since Clarence Thomas is a devout conservative .
Get over being Jealous MRCMRC ....YOU ARE EITHER SOWELL OR TIGER .....FEW ARE .



On minimum wages
The business that will only pay a worker the minimum wage will soon be looking for illegals to get workers at even a lower cost or pay workers under the table to avoid the FICA tax.

If they can they will take the job overseas or move their corporate headquarters to the to some Island. Before you know it you got lead in baby toys and poison in pet food.

facts part 2
Second, following the most recent increase legislated in 1996, the low-wage labor market performed better than it had in decades. The fact that the employment and earnings opportunities of low-wage workers grew so quickly following that increase continues to pose a daunting challenge to those who still maintain that minimum wage increases hurt their intended beneficiaries.

Recently, the Fiscal Policy Institute (FPI) released a study of the impact of higher minimum wages on small businesses4. Their analysis focuses on various outcomes for businesses with less than 50 employees, comparing these outcomes between states with minimum wages above the Federal level and those at the Federal level. If the theory that higher minimum wages hurt small businesses is correct, then we would expect there to be less growth in such enterprises in states with higher minimum wages. In fact, as shown in Figure 5, the opposite is the case.

• Between 1998 and 2001, the number of small business establishments grew twice as quickly in states with higher minimum wages (3.1% vs. 1.6%).
• Employment grew 1.5% more quickly in high minimum wage states.
• Annual and average payroll growth was also faster in higher minimum wage states."

http://www.epi.org/content.cfm/webfeatures_viewpoints_raisi ng_minimum_wage_2004

Primus54
It is not the business of the government whether people are lazy if they are not on the government dole. I was just making the point that laziness is not a providence of welfare queens. As to the wealthy I do worry about over accumulation of wealth in the hands of a small few through inheritance. Read my post on the estate tax.

So we agree capital gains should not be taxed at a rate that is lower than work. If that means we have to level them by having one go up a little and the other come down a little (Revenue neutral are you in favor of that.) Or are you just saying that you oppose taxes period.

Of course it is a benefit that middle income people own stock, I do. It is good for the country as well.

My point is that the middle class are often used as a rationale for a lower capital gains rate that primarily favors the investor class. This is just plain lying to the public.

But since we agree that capital gains should not be taxed at a lower rate than wages my second point is moot.


some facts
it is astounding to me that some conservatives like sowell base their conclusions on "feelings" rather than facts.

study after study has been done on mininum wage that show it has minimal effect on employment or higher wages.




"Despite the fact that contemporary economic research casts a long shadow of doubt on the contention that moderate minimum wage increases cause job losses, opponents still lead with this argument. This so-called “disemployment” argument is particularly difficult to maintain given two relatively recent developments in the history of minimum wages. First, the quality of empirical minimum wage research rose steeply over the last decade, due largely to economists’ ability to conduct pseudo-experiments3. Such experiments, rare in empirical economics, typically utilize the fact that numerous states (12 as of today) have raised their minimum wage above that of the federal level. This variation between states gives researchers a chance to isolate the impact of the wage change and test its impact on employment and other relevant outcomes. As stressed in the Card and Krueger book cited above, these studies reveal employment elasticities that hover about zero, i.e., they solidly reject the conventional hypothesis that any increase in the minimum wage leads to job losses among affected workers.


Hal Donahue writes:
"As far as my resume you have more than enough."
-----

Yes, Hal. You have responded exactly as predicted.

I just found it interesting that someone took the time to respectfully ask you for details that you didn't seem fit to answer.

Your response is little more than your usual modus operandi - you know, when you post opinions as "facts", yet refuse to provide proof - calling upon your debater to "do the work" to disprove you.

You wouldn't make it long as an attorney with that mindset - but it is uniquely you (and "Robert").

"LMAO" - © 2008, Hal Donahue

ckhuckster
No I am not. The Dems plan provided a 1 million dollar deduction before the estate tax kicked in. Beyond that it is a tax. Between estate planning and the cap, the mega wealthy do Ok. And don't buy the baloney that this is double taxation, much of want gets past the million dollar cap was never taxed in the first place.

My only point is that you don't have to be poor to be lazy.

Hard Thought
You post a nice simple irrefutable post. How the PC left can ignore simple facts baffles me. I do think reality is on the way. Its a heluva thing when i put my money into foreign businesses, but they are paying the price for their cultural and political decisions, and look much more stable over the next few years. We have been postponing payment for ours, but nemesis is one the way, and i look for a nasty shakeout. Neither of the candidates seems to have a clue.

Results?
"Before we start imitating someone, we should first find out whether the results that they get are better than the results that we get."

Even before that, we should determine whether what they're doing would be desirable public policy here, and then find out whether our Constitution allows us to do what they're doing.

Primus54
Haven't been there yet, but i will. I am out the door to visit my Mom for lunch. Where did i ever get the time to work full time before i retired? YOur kind offer is too good not to take advantage, to say nothing about what i might learn. In the meantime, i leave this very pleasant thread in the good hands of you and the usual crew of hard rock realists.

Butcher
Have you not read Hal at all? He simply will not debate, but rather uses lies to make his point. There is no use debating him.

Social Security
Well, I would like it if I could op out. Anyone else for it? It should be a safety measure for people who want it. I don't because I can handle my money better than the government can.

JMO51. So are you against people inheriting money? I just want a simple answer to that one.

Free Speech in Europe
Holocaust denial is a crime in many nations in Europe.

SSGT, Primus54, Tedmug
You good ol boys are in rare form this morning. Attacking ol Hal that way, so what great contributions have any of you made.
SSGT said lets compare DD-214, you got one, I do and I'll tell you right now, It wont buy me a cup of coffee, does yours. if so where and I'l bring mine.
Me I only served in Nam from 70-72, double tour. How long you serve in your war SSGT.
And Primus54, you sound like a night clubing piece of prime beef. Or are you a want a bee shock jock. Like Don Imustquit Imus, or can't get enough diet pills `What a Rush' Limbaugh. Oh I get it your a more of the In the stern from Howard Stern.
And tedmug of OH. go back to bed and sleep it off.

Yeah lets copy
the European model. Socialism and appeasment. That way they can spend all their resources and save US from the next dictator! Dont hold your breath.

Nellie - There is no illness in this
world that cannot be solved by what we eat. To bad my ex doesn't know that. He suffers from bi-polar disorder and thinks that all HE has to do is tell God to get rid of it...he's tried that several times and low and behold if he doesn't have an episode. So all he needed to do was change his DIET? You are NUTS...you are probably in need of either risperadol or geodon...please seek psychiatric help as soon as possible...there is a difference between faith and insanity and you are bordering on the second instead of the first...

If/When Sophie shows up
I left a response for you on Burt Pretelusky's thread from yesterday. I'm not gonna be around today as we are on vacation.

All my friends, please direct her to Burt's if she needs my response to her question. Thanks.

While we are on the subject of
the failing European style socialism, can someone tell me why FEMA is passing out "food vouchers" in Milwalkee?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,370482,00.html

They had to call in the riot police to take care of these "starving" crowds lineup to get the vouchers. From the photographs it looked like the biggest problem these starving people has was being overweight; morbidly so.

Lilys Reply # Butcher
I thank you for your wonderful rebuttal and comment.
Your word `sewer' was correct in reguards to discribing the shyster lawyers. And I am really good at being Nasty, but what I want is honest debate not personal attacks on someone who dis agrees with you.
Europe is not Paradise, nor is America. But we are pretty good at what we do so millions want what we have.
I agree that if someone else has a better way of doing it, I too will steal it for my use. Is that the way to grow, take the best and trash the rest.

JMO51
Wow... I've just GOT to respond to your 10:16 to "Butcher".
-----

JMO51: "I also think there are a lot of wealthy lazy people as well who are living off of trust funds. That is why I favor the estate tax."

Primus54: That's an incredible statement.

Please explain what business is it of yours or the government if there are "wealthy lazy people" who are living off trust funds?

Are these people living off the public dole?
-----

JMO51: "I also find it offensive to tax work at a higher rate than investment with a lower capital gains rate."

Primus54: Agreed.

Th tax on income should be lowered to the rate on capital gains - not the other way around as I suspect you meant it.

People invest money from income that has already been subject to taxes. Why do we need to penalize legitimate gains by taxing it again?
-----

JMO51: "And don't believe the baloney that most Americans have stock and so are benefiting,

Most working class americans own stock in the form of tax deferred pensions..."

Primus54: What difference does THAT make?

Most of these "tax deferred pensions" are in the form of self-directed 401ks and IRAs - meaning the owner gets to "play the market".

In what universe does that NOT benefit "most Americans"?


You, JMO51, seemed to have completely bought into the class-warfare argument that is one of the cornerstones of leftism.

Primus54
"Outside of national defense (US Military), can you name even one thing a government bureaucracy can do that is more efficient and at a lower cost than can be done in the private sector?"

I think JMO51 answered you quite well. As far as my resume you have more than enough. You just don't get it do you? It is about issues and competence not personal attacks any longer.

"I'm not interested in how you "feel" here - I am asking for a logic-based answer based upon tried and try results. "

Sure you are you frightened scared types are all emotion. But I am certainly glad I left a post what else would you guys have to do in my absence. Now about soon to be President Obama

Lilys
No one know the long term future. But with a fwe minor fixes social security can remain solvent for the next 40 years. Who know what will happen after that. We might have another baby boom. Social Security is a safety net. Most people also have private pensions or SEPs. I favor expanding opportunities for individuals to invest additional funds for retirement, but not by taking the funds our of FICA. I also favor raising lifting the cap.

Yes, that involves some income distribution but I am OK with that.

The pubiic seems to agree with me. The message to GWB was clear, don't mess with our social security.


Wilson54-Inferiority Complex
Cowboys are from Spain and the plains cattle raising Europe. Not just Texas, and we do not consider ourselves poor ol dummies.
It realy takes a special type of person to wear the western Ensomeble.
More Europeans like the American Western Wear than we do. It is comfortable, easy to wear and does the job. I've worn it my entire life and live in Ohio, from European parents.
Yeah I am just a 1st generation American.
So who is the stereotypist you or me?

Butcher
What do you mean you "thought". What you did was assume. I have nothing against careful evaluation of what works in other countries and using it here. I'll steal a good idea from anybody. An earlier poster mentioned the European system of "loser pays" in tort law. We desperately need it here, as crazy fees to shysters and professional sewers, sorry suers, are a huge drag on our economy. Another poster mentioned Napoleonic Law in France. The prosecutor, jury and judge can all be the same person. Our system is the best by far, but of course not perfect. And i shudder at the very thought of you carrying out your threat to really get nasty. But go ahead. Nasty seems to be your thing.

Butcher
It is all how you say it. We should not imitate anyone. But we also should not have to reinvent the wheel either. If other nations have confronted a problem that we share and found a solution why shouldn't we look to them as an example.

After WWI both we and the Russians raced to learn about rockets and other German weapons technology.

Should we have said, oh no we are great we won the war what can we learn from the losers?

That would have been stupid.

True innovators learn from others. They learn both what to do and what not to do. In war colleges students learn about battles, but they don't arrogantly operate on the assumption that the American Commander was always right and the enemy commander always wrong.

Sowell makes this a zero sum game when it has nuance.

Elitism
When it comes to elitism our own Democratic Party needs to straighten up its act. For a party that has generally portrayed itself as representing the "common man" it has come across as very elitist lately. It seems that not too long ago an incident arose where some Democrat political operatives were sent to a NASCAR race to drum up support for candidates and one or more of these politicos wondered if they would need vaccinations before honobbing with people that they perceive would frequent a NASCAR race. This is one of several incidents I can think of lately where Democrats have tried to appear common and elitist at the same time. This is usually known as trying to have it both ways and generally doesn't work very well.

Lilys
Mornin' Savage,

Did you ever email me? Or do you want to stay with "Lilys"?

Th procedure is very, very simple.

JMO51
Go to a Japanese hospital then tell me what you think about it. Almost all of the equipment and prectices are at least 10 years behind, most doctors try to get to go to the U.S. so they can learn the latest information but than can't use it because of the governmental regulatrions in Japan. And yes you do pay for it, will high taxes and high prices. If you want a transplant it is easier to fly to America and get one then in Japan.

Butcher
I have no tolerance for anyone who is sucking off of the system. That is why I favored Welfare Reform.

I think it is a good to invest in the next generation that is why I favor good schools and grants for college. It is a good investment as a country and will keep us competitive. I also think there are a lot of wealthy lazy people as well who are living off of trust funds. That is why I favor the estate tax.

I also find it offensive to tax work at a higher rate than investment with a lower capital gains rate.

And don't believe the baloney that most Americans have stock and so are benefiting,

Most working class americans own stock in the form of tax deferred pensions the real winners in our current system are trust fund babies.

I don't like Welfare and I don't like Corporate Welfare.

Minimum Wage Laws at their Simplest
I have a small business.

I have a budget of $20 an hour for labor.

Minimum wage is $5.00 an hour. I hire four workers.

Minimum wage law changes to $6.00 an hour.

My profit margin hasn't changed, my budget hasn't changed. The cost of labor has changed.

One worker gets laid off.

It really is that simple.

Curtal Friar
well, well, well. Good to see you! Its been a while. Hope everything is okay on your end!

Lilys Subject JMO51
What a change in direction you took, wow, some 180!
I though your against Imitating. Oh just Europe! South America and other Third World nations are okay to imitate.
Ah thats being Naughty

Inferiority Complex
I am sure most European nations have many good points not the least of which is centuries of history and culture for us to admire. I am however weary of this inferiority complex that so many Americans have developed lately that seems to go as follows: We Americans are a bunch of low brow cowboys(oh woe is us)and you Europeans are so refined, cultured, educated etc. I thought you liberals didn't believe in stereotyping. Both descriptions I mentioned above can equally fit some Americans and some Europeans. Also as some posters above indicated America's strength and ingenuity have benefitted Europe and the rest of the world many times over. Also as noted I don't see too many Americans emigrating to Europe whereas I am sure many of them are eager and willing to settle here. Is there room for improvement in America? Of course as I'm sure the same is true for Europe. Finally a comment on racism. I too have seen this hypocritical subtlety mentioned above where some Europeans will criticize our supposed racism while retaining their more subtle version of it. They will claim to be more tolerant and open minded towards people of other races and nationalities at the same time more silently bemoaning the fact that "some people don't know their place anymore".

JMO51 Reply # 74
JMO51; That is a really good reply. Social security is supposed to be just a safe guard, fail safe for Seniors who worked and saved.
On fortunately, it has been expanded to aide the lazy, the dependents of seniors who are just lazy.
Or people that really are lazy and lie about how unlazy they are.
State programs for lazy people, should be financed by that state, not the federal government.
If it was, thousands of lazy baby factories and their brats would not get free rides to college and better homes than minimum wage workers could afford.
All this free bee stuff came from Civil Rights laws that bleed us yearly out of Billions.

Hal Donahue
I smell the stink of rotten fish...

JM051
Your support of Social Security tarnishes all your other statements. If my FICA payments had gone into a real fund, like my GI insurance payments, i would OWN millions of dollars. The interest would pay far more than my SS payments and the money would be available as a legacy. Countries which have done this, like Chile and Australia are raking in the bucks, lowering taxes, and running their retirement program in the black. American SS is a demographic time bomb, a Ponzi scheme due to collapse. Legislators have been kicking the can down the road and our kids will pay the price. Notice those legislators' pensions are not part of SS.

Lilys Reply # 77 and all to others
Are you off your meds or just over wound on coffee this morning.
Your insulting and degrading at best. So who put a burr up yours.
Europe is a nice place to visit, and come from. My family came from Europe, where did your come from, under a rock.
Crawl back under it and respond only to the topic please, or I will get nasty.

svpallava Reply # 63
In response to that, Lower Taxes on Income.
Most Europeans pay 25-50% of income earned in taxes.

Ron, eltoro, Svpalava
Cogent points all. Thank you.

Primus and SSGT
A hearty good morning to ya both!

Primus54

Medicare= The government administraters medicare. It has a much lower administrative cost than private insurance companies. Is able to contain costs for negotiating on behalf of consumers. Most seniors report a high level of satisfaction with the system. That one is a slam dunk.

Social Security is a highly effective government program. It is doing what it was designed to do which is to provide a safety net for Seniors. It should not be seen as a replacement for private planning.

The government through its authrorities in my own state of New York have build great infrastructures. We have an excellent mass transit system. Nothing is purely governmental, the authorities use a mix of public and private sector contractors to maintain and deliver services. We also have a wonderful state park system.

The government does a lot of things right and does a lot of things wrong. I have friends and collegues with simular background some work in the public sector and some work in the private sector, all are dedicated professional who put in a good days work for their pay.

I don't favor government over the public sector. In fact some of my work involves convincing public sector leaders that they could improve efficiency and save money by using private sector contractors.

You have to get past the stereotypes that all corporations are efficient and all government entities are inefficient.

I don't like a command economy like the old USSR's and I don't favor 19th century US capitalism. (by the way given the choice between these two I would take 19th century hands down,)

The best is a market driven economy with reasonable regulations like the SEC, FDA, EPA, etc. and a safetys nets that both protect consumers and industry such as FDIC, Medicare and Social Security.

On healthcare I favor systems Like the Germany or Japanese system where the government sets the rules but the systems are private sector over Canada and the UK's.

Nellie
Good morning. There is a lot in what you say about diet. There are other powerful contributing factors, including mental state, but diet and the subconscious are the most neglected that we have some level of control over. It is nice to see you in your normal, positive attitude. You mostly come across as a good-hearted person, wanting to be part of the solution, not part of the problems. A lot of these posts can be pretty rough and unfair, and i have seen you react out of your higher self. If its any consolation, you are one of the very few left wingers i feel is posting here from a position of wanting to improve things. Your support of Obama is perfectly understandable. I also believe you will be sadly disillusioned if he is elected, but i hope i am wrong. I think either way, as a huge success, or disastrous failure, he will be better for the country than McCain. In the meantime, remember that applying the highest possible motivations to others can be amazingly true.

eltoro
Amen to your post. I've also traveled outside the U.S. extensively, and when the plane lands upon my return, I also want to kiss the ground.

Imitation, Best form of Flatery
Thomas Sowell and eltoro from MD; After WWII and with vast numbers of American troops and an occupation force in Germany, Austria, Italy and other places.
Europe began to pattern itself after American Law and ways. While retaining its core of rights and values.
Not everything they do is correct, but some of it has been proven to work and work well for everyone. Socialized Medicine of Europe is very much like our Social Security program for the elderly and our Welfare. This works very well no matter how much the wealthy portion of the GOP wants it gone.
As I read in your column, your entire gripe has been to thwart higher wages for meanial jobs. But if meanial jobs are all your offering then I and others want to live good. So pay up.
We cannot say we will pay lower wages to those and not to seasoned workers.
Hundreds of seasoned, trained professionals have lost their jobs, to under paid youngster and overseas desperates who will work for next to nothing, just to work. Why is this better than making you work you way to the top.
Because it is cheaper for the cheap skates that run things.

farmer's wife #46
There is one thing in France: They get 70% of their electricity from nuclear power, while our government prevented us from building a new nuclear power plant in 30 years.

tommy #50: The liberals want to be royalty, you know, kings, lords, born to rule regardless how inccompetent they are. They hate having to run for re-election, instead of having lifetime thrones. Remember what happened to France's royalty? That's 2 things for France.

JM051 #52: 1/3 of he price of everything here is the hundreds or thousands of taxes imposed by democ-rats. Replace all those taxes with a single proper tax for each level of government, and the price will drop dramatically.

Lilys
I scroll by all of them. They never say anything logical and all they do say is a repeat of the latest Democrap talking points.

Lilys
I came across something that MRCMRC wrote over the weekend and I could not stop laughing. All I could say to myself was, huh? huh? what? LOL
I guess his writings are his fools gold!

United Nations
Even more to be emulated than Europeans is any decision by the International Association of Dictators and Tyrants. Isn't this organization trying to be the biggest and best of all governments and therefore the best possible solution to any problem that can be reached by Europe and the rest of the world? http://www.poorgrandchildren.com

Nellie
"WE CERTAINLY DO NOT MIMICK EUROPE:

IT LOVES LIFE! IT RESPECTS THE KNOWLEDGE AND EXPERIENCE OF AGE. ART, CULTURE, ARCHITECTURE, T I M E, CUISINE, FAMILY, ARE ALL RATED HIGHEST IN IMPORTANCE THERE."

And this supposed hierarchy of priorities somehow makes European society superior to the United States? With all due respect, such highbrow assertions make you sound like a typical liberal elitist waxing in envy over canopies and ginger ale at a freshmen mixer.

The truth is that none of the social values you cite (and indeed most of us cherish) cannot exist without freedom and the economic and military strength to protect it from destruction. It may sound cliche, but the Europeans would all be speaking German right now were it not for the United States. I could go on and on about the various "good" U.S. intervention in tragedy and disease throughout the world has yielded, but I think you get my point.

We'll see how much good Europe's championing of "art and cuisine" and the like will do them when the radical muslims who have all but taken over start slitting throats and installing governments. Maybe the French can stop such a tragedy by lining the streets with melting Brie?

Vic,SSGT
Mrcmrc is unique. I see 3 general types of trolls. First, the provocateur, typified by Wobbie, Hal and Ellison, who try for recognition and engagement. Second, the shat and scat types like Kimberly. And then there is mrcmrc. His posts are virtually incoherent, but when anything recognizable appears, it almost always indicates total lack of comprehension of what he is talking about. He earlier took Dr. Sowell to task for suggesting Tiger Woods change his style. Sowell, of course, was first using Woods as an example, not actually giving him advice, and secondly, Sowell was using Woods as an example of when NOT to make a change. Of the 3 types, i prefer mrcmrc, he is easiest to scroll past. I am cursed with a high reading rate, and sometimes i read some troll's stuff when i'm scrolling around and don't realize whose stuff i am reading.

Dr. Sowell
Having been born in Europe, then immigrating to the US, then spending 3 years in the US military back in Europe, then traveling back extensively many times thereafter, I kiss the ground here every time I return. God Bless America.

Primus54
and the Punkster's failure to compare DD-214's with me on TH could be another indication as to why he has not answered these questions. After all, a DD-214 tells a lot about ones carreer.

If Europe is so great
Then why are a lot more Europeans seeking to emigrate to US than Yanks to Europe?

tax reform
We the people pay all taxes, and we are the sole ultimate source of all tax revenue. Regardless where government initially collects the money, all tax money ultimately comes from us, the people, even though business has to pay thousands or millions of dollars at one time, and get it back from us one dollar at a time.
Since we the people are the one and only source of all tax revenue:
There should be only one tax to collect all tax revenue.
It should be a single, simple, fair, direct, graduated, individual, full-income tax levied on living persons for each level of government: One Tax and Done.
The best thing that government can do to help the country, the people, and even government, is to repeal all of the many hundreds, or thousands of existing taxes, fees, and charges. These taxes are the federal deficit. These taxes are the high price of everything. These tax eliminations are spending cuts. Every tax that is eliminated is a tax that we the people no longer have to pay. These taxes are the difference between the price we pay for health care and everything else, and the price we would pay if these taxes were repealed. Eliminating these taxes will remove them from the price paid for everything by everyone, including government.
One Tax and Done will provide many benefits to all, even government:
One Tax and Done will end government-caused recessions because governments would cut off their only source of tax revenue.
One Tax and Done will stop reductions in tax revenue because people reduced their use of water, sewage, and other governmental services.
One Tax and Done will reduce the price paid for everything by one-third.
One Tax and Done would end the need for subsidies.

JMO51
I know this is probably a wasted exercise on you, but I'm going to ask anyway.

Outside of national defense (US Military), can you name even one thing a government bureaucracy can do that is more efficient and at a lower cost than can be done in the private sector?

I'm not interested in how you "feel" here - I am asking for a logic-based answer based upon tried and try results.

Europe
Many of our ancestors LEFT europe (small "e", no respect intended) for better opportunity and a better life which was denied them in the old world.

There is NO reason to model europe, but to avoid anything the europeans do... they're dead or dying fast.

Phooey on the elitists who think europe is a cool place, they just wanting to be the "new" aristocraps. Hang them all.

Nellie
Please move to Europe and stay there.

Hal Donahue Pt. 2



What are the names of the corporations and not-for-profit organizations where you served on the board of directors and when did you serve?

When did you attend Colgate and Central Michigan Universities and when did you graduate?

Answers to these questions would be very helpful to me to determine who is lying and who is telling the truth.

- Blackbird

my 2 cents
In the century just passed we saved Europe 4 times.

1) WWI
2) WWII
3) The Marshall Plan following WWII.
4) A nuclear shield between Europe and the USSR for about 40 years

Look at a map of the world from 250 years ago. America didn't even exist.

Today after just 231+ years we are the richest most powerful nation in history, and Europe is a joke. And they are committing demographic suicide at the same time the muslims are busy making many baby muslims.

The EU is a joke - failure even to mention in their constitution their Christian heritage, infant euthanasia, the list goes on and on.

We are supposed to look up to these people and imitate them? I know I am overstating the issue here but really .....

Hal Donahue Pt. 1
Over on the Prelutsky thread, "Blackbird" wrote the below - to which you didn't reply. Perhaps you missed it, but I know I and many others would love to read your answer:
-----
Mr Donahue
If the following is your biography, I'm sorry to say it doesn't do anything (for me) to refute the so called lies that you claim the TH posters are saying about you. It's too general.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/hal-donahue#blogger_bio

"Hal Donahue is a retired Lieutenant Colonel in the United States Air Force. He served throughout Europe, Asia and the Middle East, on the staff of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and with the British Royal Air Force. Following retirement, Mr. Donahue was employed as a vice president of several major energy companies. Mr. Donahue has served as a member of the board for several corporate and not for profit organizations. He now to devotes his time to assisting military veterans and working to elect veterans and supporters to all levels of political office. He and his wife of 30 years, Marg, reside in Scranton, PA and are the parents of three children. Mr. Donahue is a graduate of Colgate University with a BA in Economics and he received his MS in Administration from Central Michigan University."

For example what Air Force units did you serve in? Squadrons, Wings, etc? When did you serve and and where (bases)? Were you a flying status officer or an administrative type? If you were a pilot what type of aircraft were you qualified to fly? Did you receive any medals for valor? I'm not asking you to breach classified information to answer.

You mentioned you were a vice president for several energy companies. Could you elaborate by listing their names and when you served in that capacity?

Cont'd...

'Alzheimers' is a myth
'Cancer' is a myth

'Diebetes' is a myth

I know this sounds ratical. It is.

Its also true.

Learn more:

Science and Health, with Key to the Scriptures,
by Mary Baker Eddy

Food (good food), completely heals/reveals all of these illusions, for what they really are. Watch them fall away as naturally as the sun rises in the sky.






Europe is History
As I said in my first post, Europe is falling faster than Bill Klinton’s pants. France has tried to turn it around by electing a conservative (for them) president, but it is too late.

They have had too many years of socialism, too many open borders for welfare seeking Muslims, and too many corrupt politicians like the last set in the oil for food scam.

Once you have established the years of “free lunches” it is almost impossible to go back to TNSTAAFL.

Wild Wil
Nam is not one of those liberal types. He was trying to be sarcastic.

Vile Article
What is the premise here that American's are superior, that liberals are brie eating whimps. We are a great nation and in many areas we lead the worl