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Wednesday, May 28, 2008
Thomas Sowell :: Townhall.com Columnist
The Bullet Counters
by Thomas Sowell
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"Killing an Unarmed Man." That is how the front-page headline in the New York Times characterized an incident in which a man tried to run over a policeman with his car and was shot by three policemen on the scene, including his intended victim.

An automobile is a deadly weapon. If you are killed by an automobile, you are just as dead as if you had been shot through the heart.

A phrase like "an unarmed man" makes a talking point-- as if matters of life and death should be discussed in terms of how you can spin a talking point.

The biggest and most common talking point when the police fire at someone is counting how many bullets they fired. There are politicians, media people and-- above all-- community activists who can work themselves into a rage over how many bullets were fired.

If we stop and think-- which of course the demagogues hope we will never do-- it is hard to see any moral difference between killing someone with one bullet or with dozens of bullets.

People who have never fired a gun in their lives say that they cannot understand why the police fired so many bullets. If it is something that they have never experienced, there is of course no reason why they should be expected to understand.

But, even after confessing their ignorance, such people often proceed to spout off, just as if they knew what they were talking about.

It is very easy for a pistol shot to miss, even in the safety and calm of a firing range, much less in a desperate situation where a decision must be made in a split second that can cost you your life or end someone else's life.

In a life-and-death situation, nobody counts how many bullets he is firing, much less how many bullets others are firing. It is not like a western movie, where the hero whips out his six-shooter, fires one time, and the villain drops dead.

A factual study of more than 200 real life incidents where the police fired their guns found that most of the shots missed.

Even at a distance as close as six feet, just over half the shots missed. This may be far less surprising to people who have actually fired pistols than to people who have not.

Not only can someone who is shooting a pistol for real not know beforehand whether or not his shots will hit the person who poses a danger, often it is not clear afterwards whether the shot hit anybody, depending on where it hit.

Nor does even a clear hit always render the wounded person harmless. When your life is on the line, you keep on firing until you are damn sure it is safe to stop.

Only afterwards does anybody count how many shots were fired. That is when the editorial office heroes give vent to their righteous indignation and their ignorant assumption that better "training" or better "rules" can solve the problem.

Such people seem to have no sense of the tragedy of the human condition, that there are times when decisions have to be made and acted upon immediately, whether or not we know as much as we would like to know or can carry out our decisions as perfectly as we wish we could.

People who are full of excuses for criminals-- bad childhood, unemployment, unfair world-- sit in the safety and comfort of their editorial offices and presume policemen to be guilty until proved innocent.

And they concoct clever headlines about killing an "unarmed" person, as if someone trying to run you over with a car poses no danger.

Where the person killed is black, as in the present case, that settles it, as far as the politically correct commentators are concerned, even though two of the three policemen who shot him are also black.

Not only do the people who put their lives on the line to protect the rest of us deserve better, we all deserve better than to have our own security undermined by those who undermine law enforcement.

The police themselves can back off on law enforcement when irresponsible charges can ruin their careers and their lives. No one pays a higher price for that than low-income minority communities where crime flourishes.

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Thomas Sowell is a senior fellow at the Hoover Institute and author of The Housing Boom and Bust.
 
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Best. Column. Ever.
I would LOVE to see a far leftist try to refute this column. It's perfect.

I seem to recall a statistic

that during the Vietnam War, a couple thousand or so rounds of ammo were expended for every dead enemy soldier.

A gunfight's a whole different animal from shooting at paper targets at the range.


Whats the difference?
If you are killed by a stone, a car, or a gun you are still dead a long time. The reason the news counts the bullets is sensationalism. As the old adage says" if it bleeds it leads". peace and well being doesn't sell papers or commercial time. Bloody, filthy, unmitigated crime does. People's love for blood and the fall of the crimefighters are what will make money for the newshounds.Normal life is boring.

Bullet Counters
This column put me in mind of how phony all the TV cops & Hollywood superstars seemed on 9/12. The true heroes put their lives on the line every day. No fame or fortune.
Journalists are even farther down the 'courage' chain. They imagine themselves of 'Wood-stein' calibre, when all that is required of them is: "Just the facts, M'am."

You fire until . . .
. . . the threat stops. This is something the media and gun ignorant general public fail to understand (or wilfully ignore). They also fail (or refuse) to understand that if you have a reason to shoot someone you have reason to kill them, no matter how many bullets it takes. I know personally (as the responding prosecutor) of one officer who shot a knife wielding man hitting him five times. The man fell FORWARD, after taking four 10mm bullets in the chest and one in the leg. He was not blown backward off his feet like you see on TV.

disasterbabe
Sorry, off topic. I could not post on the other.

disasterbabe
Location: WA

Reply # 263
Date: May 27, 2008 - 10:06 PM EST
"Subject: Oh, I forgot
I would really like to respond to your...

How did a Minnesotan like you end up conservative?"

~~~

Actually, there are more than a few Minnesotan conservatives on TH, and of course, a few that are not. Pretty much like many other States.

Some of them are quite entertaining, such as one who may be your soul-mate, one mrbmrb.

Please engage mrbmrb in dialogue, when you next see his 'Nom de Plume'.
I am sure you will be enlightened.

Rats
(and mice)

It doesn't matter how many
times the cops shot this guy the race baiters would still have complained. They would have complained that the cops had damaged his van if they had not shot and simply let him run over the one cop.

Another Excellent Column ! *****

It is always difficult to impossible to add any significant relevant information to any Dr. Sowell column.

He lays it everything out in meticulous detail, and in easy to understand words.

Well done Sir !

Reminds me...

There was a story sometime back (can't remember exact details), where some thug murdered a young Cop at a routine traffic stop.

Several police caught up to him a short time later and managed to fire about 150 rounds of ammo, and succeeded in delivering belated justice.

The usual suspects, the media, demanded to know why they fired so many rounds.

As I recall, the police spokesman replied, "It was all the ammo we had."

Simply poetic !


We don't want you to know.
Most officers don't want their family and friends to know the evils that are out there. We do our jobs and, God willing, we go home in one piece. That's all that matters. The press chooses ignorance. They're all waiting for their 1968 Democratic Convention. They wait for it and in the meantime, invent whatever they can. Men like Rev's Jackson and Sharpton rile up the masses and the press covers them with unmasked adoration.
By the way Dr. Sowell, I'm sure you are aware that according to Rev. Jackson, there are no black officers. They wear blue. So they are all blue along with the rest of us. He discounts their race for expediencies sake. How's that for equality.
Good cops are more numerous than the bad ones. Remember ladies and gentleman, we go where most won't. We do what most won't. We don't want adoration or even acknowledgement. We just want to go home to our loved ones.

More of the same
Here in the Carolinas, everyone is talking about a case in Charlotte a few days ago where an 18 year old black guy was shot and killed when he pulled a gun during an arrest and all the community activists are demanding an investigation. Just one of many recent situations in the country as a whole illustrative of Mr. Sowell's contentions. If the perpetrators had not pulled the guns, they would not have been shot, but it makes for ever so much better drama if the complainers can hollar at police for doing their duty.

The Edman
The Edman
Location: IL

Reply # 11
Date: May 28, 2008 - 2:46 AM EST Subject: We don't want you to know.
Most officers don't want their family and friends to know the evils that are out there. We do our jobs and, God willing, we go home in one piece. That's all that matters. The press chooses ignorance. They're all waiting for their 1968 Democratic Convention. They wait for it and in the meantime, invent whatever they can. Men like Rev's Jackson and Sharpton rile up the masses and the press covers them with unmasked adoration.
By the way Dr. Sowell, I'm sure you are aware that according to Rev. Jackson, there are no black officers. They wear blue. So they are all blue along with the rest of us. He discounts their race for expediencies sake. How's that for equality.
Good cops are more numerous than the bad ones. Remember ladies and gentleman, we go where most won't. We do what most won't. We don't want adoration or even acknowledgement. We just want to go home to our loved ones.
~~~

Thank you sir or madam for your Civilian Police Service! The majority on TH would also salute you!

unarmed man
Mr. Sowell, I agree with you about most things but you are dead wrong about cops. If you want to scare yourself silly, spend some time with a group of cops in a social environment. They are, to a man, obsessed with being vicious. There was a time when a gun was the last resort, now, probably because of too much television and Dirty Harry, every cop I meet is itching for a chance to blow someone away. If you question one of them, they tell you, "You don't know what it's like out there." Well, I live out there, without a badge or a gun or backup so I do know what it's like. Given a choice I'd prefer to be in a phone booth with two rabid doberman pincers than in the same block with the average cop. I also own several handguns and practice with them frequently so I know what is required to hit a target. I also know that emptying a gun into a vehicle when you have no idea who or what might be inside or who or what might be just beyond it is bad.

The Edman
The Edman
Location: IL

Reply # 11
Date: May 28, 2008 - 2:46 AM EST Subject: We don't want you to know.

~~~~

I have just the barest inkling of your job.

I had several occasions to Walk Shore Patrol, while in the Navy, in the early 60's.

I know my job was not as dangerous as USA Police work, but still, when there are two men, unarmed except for a short stick, and you face a bar full of drunks, on the verge of riot, it very unsettling. Scared? You bet! Show it? NO WAY!

Two men would have small chance against a mob.

You immediately TAKE CHARGE, and control the situation. Attitude is everything at that instant.

Again, I salute you.



I had the occasion to Walk Shore Patrol, while in the Navy, in the early 60's.

Important Lesson in Liberalism
I learned an important lesson in liberalism several years ago.

The family's name was Goldmark.
The Perp's name was David Louis Rice.

The Family was a prominant Seattle liberal family who suffered a home invasion.

They did as any good liberal would do and cooperated to the fullest with thier attacker. In the end they cooperated when he killed them all.

How can you expect someone who will cooperate in their own demise to ever understand the concept of "Shoot until you don't have to anymore!"

They don't get it because they are incapabale of doing so.

just my thoughts

jd

Fred Reed on Cops "Striking"...
http://www.fredoneverything.net/yyProblems.shtml

Fred also has a number of other columns about the reeality of police work.

Bullets & Race Baiters, Oh My!
Okay Folks, I'm gonna ask a rhetorical question, you don't have to answer, remember it's rhetorical and we all know the answer.
So, here goes; Who along with the victim's fiance is filing a multi-gazillion dollar lawsuit against the state of New York for excessive force?
Hint Hint, he retorted, there was no justice so there can be no peace until full retribution is achieved.
Unbelievable, and the coverage and the mileage they the MSM is going to get out of this is shameful.
You'll hear the Race Baiters espound at length about this incident, being one of the reason's why there is that idiotic "No Snitch" campaign going on in the "Hood".
I shudder to think what would've happened if the driver of that car had achieved his goal and some how gotten away.

Bonnie & Clyde
Can you imagine the hype that today's media would put out about how Bonnie & Clyde came to their end.

"Police gunned down young couple with machine guns, while they were taking a leisurely ride down a country road."

And what will happen if
some looney court says:
1) tell them you are police
2) tell them you are armed
3) tell them to lay down their weapons and come out with their hands up
4) fire ONCE
5) ask if they are okay
6) ask if they will come out now
7) fire ONCE more
8) ask if they are STILL okay
9) ask if they will come out NOW
10) repeat 5-10 until perp comes out.

Times leadership
I think that the heads of the NYT have much bigger things going on in their heads than simply attacking the Second Amendment when they run with headlines like this. I think that they know conservatives will react with the contempt shown in this forum and they hope that it creates division among the people. Gun education and awareness should be a part of growing up. I'm not sure of the best way to address the issue, but I see it as a definite problem.

Take cover
When shooting starts outside your window, drop to the floor crawl away to get as many walls as you can between you and the shooting. Whether it is a police shootout or a gangs shooting or folks driving by protect yourself.
The papers and TV will tell you a sensational story tomorrow or on the nightly news if its significant. Otherwise its just another day in paradise too normal for telling.
Another reason I left CA for a small town in IA.

My tuppance worth.
A young lady of my acquaintance has a brother on the Job in NYC. Fifteen years and still on a beat. The guy's decorated but has a little problem with authority figures. She says it's an Irish thing.

He doesn't remember emptying his Glock TWICE and slamming in the THIRD magazine while body-shielding two wounded officers who'd responded to a 911 "ambush call". THAT you'll never hear about from Sharpton.

I recall about 15 years ago after another shooting in the City some smart a$$ reporter went to the Police Academy to see what kind of training these "thugs with badges get". They put him in a Hogan's Alley. Yikes! He shot more civilians than any cadet on record and in record time. Then in another sim he was trying to detain an "unarmed" suspect and got "shot" also in record time.

He came out flowing with praise for cops and got reassigned to covering flower shows.

-Ray
NRA Life Member

Mayor Miller
Our socialist mayor is now trying to ban gun clubs and firing ranges in Toronto, pretending it is going to solve the problem of illegal Jamaican gun owning drug lords killing everyone that gets between them and their intended target. The Mayor is far more frightened of Blacks than he is of guns, but he thinks by punishing all the innocent people that he will make the guilty people leave him alone. Everyone asks him why not arrest the criminals and keep them in jail, and he keeps on saying guns are scary, guns are dangerous, we must banish even pictures of guns from our city, but not the criminals because they are Victims of Exclusion and if we make them feel Loved, they will stop killing everyone in sight.

There is nothing to be done with a man like that. Well there is one thing.

Hmmmm....
It sounds like a suicide to me.

Police shooting
To those in haste to attack the police please remember that an automobile is a deadly weapon. If you don't believe that read the statistics on the number of automobile fatalities in this country each year. During the Korean and Vietnam wars, the ones I am most familiar with, we lost more than 40,000 people a year to road deaths, numbers far higher than combat casualties.

DRUGS & GUNS
At the heart of Police shootings are the remarkable proliferation of drugs and guns in recent years. Meth is all over the country now and it induces users to do the most incredibly stupid things. And if that user has a gun? Watch out.

Police officers are in more mortal danger than ever before. Naturally, they take this knowledge out on the street with them and are generally in no mood to take threats to their lives lightly.

Trying to convince complete morons like WILLIE B and the utter buffoons at the NY Times of the dangers that police face routinely is useless.

Willie B thinks he knows what it takes to hit a target - like shooting at an utterly harmless piece of paper is comparable to getting into a shootout with someone who is firing the first shot at you with a mac 10 or shotgun. Willie is in his own little world and simply hasn't the intelligence to separate macho, blowing off steam type of talk from reality.

The Times pin heads are just gutless worms who follow the script of the editors and Publisher. You won't find a gonad among

Usually I would agree
However, in this instance I cannot. If the perp had emptied his weapon into the cop, he would have been charged with murder. The same should hold for the cops.

This video shows Dr. Sowell's points
http://youtube.com/watch?v=wMNRUmmNwHw

Check out the above youtube addy to see a video that shows what Dr. Sowell is talking about.

-Cop pepper sprays criminal to no effect
-Cop misses a shot at less than 2 feet
-Cop shoots criminal in gut
-The criminal proceeds to beat the cop to a pulp with mace in his eyes and a bullet in his gut.


It is complete fallacy...
...that police are constantly in mortal danger. They do not even make it into the top 10 of dangerous jobs in America. I don't see people fawning over power company linemen, or commercial fisherman, both of which are in far greater danger of death or injury than police.

Mr. Sowell is my favorite columnist at TH. But, in this article he fails to address the important question. Why do so many people, in and out of the media, have such a negative view of the police? The answer to that question is the heart of Mr. Sowell's lament. Too bad he avoids the instructive truth.

MEDIA globally, is slanted
we have been reading propaganda for a long time

So let's do something about it, Dr. Sowell, instead of capitalizing on articles stating the problem.

Let us know the action we should take.
I'm ready to join forces.

Use your captive audience for demonstrating change for good. Here's another opportunity.

Be a leader! Let's go.

any life taken by any means, unnatural
is sinful.

Life is precious. It should be cherished.
Glorify God by doing so.

Thank you, Edman #21
For being one of our good ones.

I pray for you often.

sincere?
Let's test the judges and editorial writers sincerity.

Drag them with you and put them in front of the car that is aiming to run them over. See if they respond:

1. Don't shoot! Don't Shoot! He's unarmed
or
2. Fire! Hurry! He is still coming after me!

These judges and commentators are so dishonest. The people should pass a law to make it part of the Judges duty to live in the police's world if they rule against them.

I think they could call it sensitivity training

What?
Debbie, if you kill someone in self defense, you should be charged with murder?

AudiR10, I thought Canadians had given up their right to keep and bear arms. Am I mistaken?

Ratas, I believe the case you mention happened in Florida last year.

I grew up respecting...
the law and all those who enforce it. They have a very difficult job and it is becoming even more difficult these days. It seems those who perpetrate crimes have more rights than those they victimize.

A deadly weapon can be anything. When someone is intent on killing they will use whatever they can and their targets are just as dead.

Guns also save lives but we never hear about those stories. Bad people exist in every profession and every walk of life. Criminals cannot be disarmed through laws, they don't get their guns retail.

Disarming law abiding citizen and causing people to doubt and question law enforcement is the goal of those who would be our masters. Their intention is control, not saving lives.

There seems to be plenty of people willing to go along and contribute to their own demise.

Dr Sowell keep shining your light
Dr Sowell wrote: "When your life is on the line, you keep on firing until you are damn sure it is safe to stop."

Many years ago several policeman who were under fire from criminals left their cover and were killed.

An expert who investigated this phenomena concluded that "officers in a cost cutting effort were trained to immediately pick up their brass from the expended cartridges thus exposing themselves during the stress and fear they were experiencing."

Liberal 'panty waists' whose greatest terror they have faced was their 'latte' being not just right - can not understand the fear and terror of being shot at by vicious criminals.

Liberals should 'count the ways' they are destroying this country instead of the bullets these brave men and women are expending trying to return home to their families after being attacked!!!!!!!!

Pretty sad...
But I'm not sure I buy all the bunk about rabbid police officers.

I live in Indianapolis, IN and I think our police officers and great. I have had numerous occassions to phone them and they always respond promptly and are polite, helpful and (in the case where my mother died at home) kind and caring.

I visited my sister in Sacramento a few months ago. One of her neighbors had an all night party that was very loud and disruptive. My sister was sick undergoing treatment for cancer. I told her she should call the police. She said it wouldn't help because they wouldn't respond. I thought that was pathetic. Where I live, they come in about 10 minutes even if it is just about disturbing the peace.

I will definately stay in Indianapolis.

Nellie...
David slew Goliath. God said David was a man after his own heart. There is only one way to deal with evil. Complete and utter destruction.

Nellie
obviously disagrees.

Next time you need help, call an ACLU lawyer then.

No police wasn't in the
top 10, it was 11th. I think your post is disingenuopus.

http://menstuff.org/issues/byissue/dangerousjobs.htm

Liberals are Devoid of Reality
Liberals who have only shown their bravery with others lives - always attack the process which the brave use to defend them!!

Liberals only 'fix' that which is working and have no clue how to 'fix' anything broken!!

Almost 20,000 forcible rapes in America last year.

Liberals theorize that reducing crime means banning or reducing inanimate objects i.e. weapons is the answer.

What will liberals theorize to stop rape?


Solution...
Full Auto Uzzies. All the rounds are gone in a few seconds and the criminal is swiss cheese. Next Case!

Been there and done that
As a former deputy sheriff, I can tell you that once the deadly threat is recognized, that you can not take your eyes off of it. The adrenelin starts pumping and all fine motor skills are gone despite all your many hours of practice. Things run in slow motion. You have tunnel vision. You don't hear things. You are fumbling to get your service revolver out of the holster and you can't do it. When you finally do manage to get it out, you don't look at the sights because your entire attention is focused on the threat to your life! It's difficult to shoot accurately when you don't concentrate on the sights and a handgun is difficult to shoot in any case because of the short sight radius. You most certainly do not and can not count how many shots you fire or don't fire. You shoot until the thing is empty that's how many rounds you fire.

It's always easy for the Monday morning quater backs to tell you how you could have won the game and after a shooting they always come out with their expert diatribes.

The simple truth is that every time you put on a uniform, you IMMEDIATELY become a target for every nut case in our society and there are plenty of them out there. The mere sight of a uniform and a badge is enough to set some people off.
As a law enforcement officer, I was always taught and always TRIED to be courteous and at least civil, but I learned very quickly that some people only respond to superior force and the quicker it is applied, the less I was likely to bleed or die. There are few things like carrying your fellow officers to their graves to make you understand that except for the grace of God, it could have easliy been me in that casket. That is what counts.

Count the bullets? Hell no! Count dead bad guys? Hell yes.

The Edman and Law Enforcement Officers
Thank you for your service to your communities and our country!!

May God Bless you and protect you as you protect us!!

The same Liberals who despise you and what you represent will run to you for protection when threatened - they have no honor - do not comprehend duty and 'spit' on those who do.

A salute to Police Officers - Fire Fighters - EMT technicians and especially the American Soldier - God Bless and Protect all of you!!

Debbie's response
in reply #28, is that of a typical Liberal. Just plain stupid!!

Black policemen...
Of course the "real black folks" say the black cop is just acting white.

Black Prince et al
Thank you sir for your service and bravery!!

A very good post - clear and precise.


Not all law enforcement people are good
The case has been made that some law enforcement is beyond necessary. As a former deputy sheriff, I agree. I quit law enforcement when it became more like the military than civilain work.

After 9/11 the Federal Government pumped a LOT of money into local police operations AND they made THEIR TRAINING MANDATORY. This is to get around the Possee Comotadus law. Look at police today and see all the black uniforms, military type weapoms and tacticts. They are DANGEROUS to our democracy. They are dangerous to you and your family. Revisit Waco to see what they are trained to do and what they will do. Look at Ruby Ridge and Randy Weaver to see what they are trained to do and what they will do.

Any time I was first responder to a break in and there was the possibility that the perp was still inside, I MUCH MORE feared the arrival of the local cops in the black uniforms who would shoot me in the back than I feared the guy who might inside with a crow bar. If you have any brains, you should fear them too.

There are still a lot of good people in law enforcement at the local level, but once the Feds get involved in your loacl law enforcement department, you better look out!!!

Question
Was it a New York policeman?Damn,I am sure sorry the person MISSED...Many policemen are merely "Murders" with a badge.I cry for society and it's people,not the police.

vic #7
Some of these people would complain that the cop didn't give his gun to the criminal.

Some people say that the Militia part of the Second Amendment of the Constitution refers only to flintlock rifles because that was all that was available at the time the Constitution was written. These people are incorrect, because at the time when our Militiamen had flintlocks, that is what the enemy had, state-of-the-art weapons. When we are attacked now by terrorists, the enemy carries fully-automatic, AK47’s - brought into the United States by the embassies and UN delegations of terrorist countries - real assault rifles used by the enemy military. Since our Militiamen are expected to stop the enemy with their own weapons, because the Regulars are not on the scene yet and the Militiamen are, our Militiamen should own weapons that are the equivalent of the enemy’s – State-0f-The-Art. Our Militiamen, law-abiding adult Americans, should all have fully-automatic personal weapons constantly accessible to them, just as the Swiss Militiamen do. This is what our Founding Fathers require for us in the Second Amendment of the Constitution. The Federal Firearms Act of 1934, and all other laws prohibiting our Militiamen from having state-of-the-art weapons are unconstitutional.

As One From Combat ...
I can tell you that most people get excited and miss when shooting. I can remember one man who emptied his 20-shot magazine directly up and still couldn't understand why he didn't hit his target.

I was told, and I agree, that only 10% of the people are cool enough in combat to aim correctly. They think they are aiming but they don't. Also, when they are trying to duck and cover or get out of the way of the attacker, they can only snap shoot which also means the bullets may not get close to the target.

Too many people watch the hero in movies and insist everyone should be able to do the same. I'm surprised the police are able to hit as often as they do. It indicated a lot of training and cool manner under fire. Hurrah for the police in this situation as well as others. Until the reporters, and other nay-sayers, are in the same situation, they chould keep their mouths shut.

Excellent as usual
And I see the libs are out in force crying about harming those poor criminals, and wondering why the rest of us resist letting them rule the world.

disagree
1. Usually I agree with Dr. Sowell's opinions. In this case he is correct. But expanding this incident to cover all police shootings is incorrect. New York City has settled some lawsuits for irresponsible police shootings of innocent people. The right to carry and use a firearm also carries the responsibility to do so correctly. Although I loathe racemongers (and remember Tawana Brawley case years ago), each case is different. Shooting 50 bullets into a car simply on the belief that the occupants had firearms [they didn't] is not Justice and not Law. At the least, police officers should have been dismissed for showing bad judgment. Better is to be imprisoned for manslaughter; there was no return fire [no guns in the car. One man was illegally killed by the police and the family's lawsuit is proper. 2.All cases cannot be evaluated on one scale; there are significant differences. In the car trying to run down the police officer there was definite criminal action and the shooting was justified. 3.In the Queen's nightclub parking lot killing there was suspicion. And suspicion is insufficient reason to start shooting. 4.Having lived in NYC, I do not always believe that the police are justified in killing. In the past there have other illegal killings of innocent men by the NYC police.5.When police commit crimes they should be punished like other criminals and lawbreakers. A badge is not a license to kill people. 6.Sometimes the police are wrong and must be accountable for their actions. 7. Since police carry weapons and have the right to use them, then when they act wrongfully they should be punished. After all,the people they shot are already dead or injured. The innocent are dead and the guilty are alive. 8.The families of the innocents are entitled to monetary reparations if the killers are set free. That is limited Justice. And Justice is the ultimate purpose for laws.

Black Prince:
You are certainly correct about all of it. Some people don't get that excited but most do in such a situation. Personally, I agree with you - you stop shooting only when the gun is empty. Then you reload and do it again if your target is still moving. If someone doesn't like that fact, they can stand in front of you the next time you get into that situation. Then, from behind some cover, you can take your time.

Thanks for your time and efforts.

Ron--reply #51
I completely agree Ron. As a rural deputy sheriff, I can't tell you how many times I was assisted by local people who were armed. There was a state prison in our county and there was an escape from it about once a year. Here I am out there by myself, sometimes at night, looking around in barns and chicken houses for someone VERY desparate to get away. It was always comforting to have the guy who owned the place to be armed with his shotgun and cover my back.

Any law enforcement officer who belives that he or she ought to be armed with weapons and you should not be is a law enforcement officer you should FEAR!!!

A company developed Mace.
It worked. It could immobilize criminals. The government banned Mace (I don't know why, but they did). The people and the Police were stuck with using pepper spray. It doesn't work.

All the examples in post #49 were carried out by the Clinoid liberals.

Marion
You might start using some of that "Resistance" to stop the millions coming over the border.You have no power,beyond your front door.Read a law book.PLEASE...Resist allowing them to run the world,is a statement of "Insanity".It does not even qualify as "Wishful Thinking".SORRY!!!

Ron
I agree and have posted such on many occasions. At the time the 2nd amendment was written civilians owned every type of weapon that the military had, including canon.

As for the posters who talk about accuracy and the lack thereof when getting into combat shooting circumstances that is what practice is supposed to be for. Although shooting at paper targets is not the same thing and neither is the "pop up" targets, the theory is that if you shoot thousands of rounds a year in practice and get to the point where the shooting action is a "muscle memory" then when you get into combat shooting eventhough you are shooting without thinking about it, your muscleas are doing that for you.

Of course, how many people shoot thousands of rounds a year. I used to but not any more.

Willie....
Where in the world do you live where all your cops are raving lunatics. I know many cops and they are all great people.

Shootout here
There was recently a shootout at a bank near where I lived. One of my friends works there and told me about it.

There was an off-duty police officer there as a guard when the felon came in to hold up the place. In the center of the main lobby is a post. The guard was in a room to the left used for a kitchen.

The felon told everyone to get their hands up. The guard jumped into the doorway with his revolver in both hands. He fired six shots as fast as he could in the direction of the felon, who was trying to hide behind the post. The felon fired one round back. The guard leaped back out of sight, reloaded and did it again as the felon fired a second time. Again the guard reloaded. He fired once or twice more before the felon's gun jammed and he gave up.

My friend was plastered against the wall along with two other women.

Results? The felon was unhurt. The guard was unhurt. One woman in a closed office had been hit in the leg by a bullet that came through the wall, fired by the guard.

The guard commented that he was an expert shot on the range. He was certain that he was aiming at the felon but had missed him widely. The guard practiced regularly.

It is as Black Prince says. When you are getting shot at, you shoot fast and hope one hits your target.

Hello insightingtruth
In your post #29 you state:

"Subject: It is complete fallacy...
...that police are constantly in mortal danger. They do not even make it into the top 10 of dangerous jobs in America. I don't see people fawning over power company linemen, or commercial fisherman, both of which are in far greater danger of death or injury than police."

In terms of risk management the occupations you use as examples are able to better control the elements of risk by developing procedures to reduce that risk and thus mitigate the probability of serious injury. If a hurricane is brewing no one would require or expect a commercial fisherman to put out to sea in his boat to fish. The cops and emergency workers would be expected to go out in those conditions. The Coast Guard would be expected to go out in heavy seas to rescue the dumb commercial fisherman who was not wise enough to stay in port.

In a traffic stop or a bar fight you can't always tell immediately where the hazard is going to come from. You can assess the situation and address the immediate risk. How do you know the the guy in the back seat doesn't have an Uzi?

Nice try but your examples are weak. The danger to the cops is real.

Tibby

Muscle Memory
Vic:

Muscle Memory is when you do something without thinking about it due to extended practice first. When you are being shot at, muscle memory doesn't normally work because you are too busy trying to keep from being hit to give muscle memory time to do what it is supposed to do.

Some people can do it. Most cannot. And I don't look down on those who can't. They do their best.

a propos....
"We sleep peacefully in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence upon those who would do us harm."

bullits count
As far as I'm concerned,if I was ever in the situation of extreme danger to my life, the only worry I would have is if I ran out of ammo before the S O B was dead.

Off the streets!
THis is going to sound terrible but I'm always a little relieved to hear that a bad guy has been killed by the police. That way the courts will not have to opportunity to let him back on the streets to do it again.

I don't believe every person is capable of changing or repenting.

The Bullet Counters
Dear Thomas Sowell, I would very much like to meet you one day and shake your hand. You are gifted by our creator with much wisdom and insight on all subjects and I look forward to reading your columns every day. May God continue to pour out his blessings on you and your family. You are truly a great American.

Best Regards,
David in Lucas TX

tibby:
If "risk management" is so easy for the professions I cite why are there more deaths and injuries?

Nice try but your logic is faulty.

Muscle memory
It's great for playing a guitar. I can play things that I don't know the music for or the notes, but my fingers know where those notes are. But when I'm playing my guitar, there usually isn't somebody trying to kill me or bullets whizzing past my ears, so muscle memory works. Once the adrelinin starts pumping, all of that sort of thing stopps working and the survival instinct takes over.

I'd like to see anyone play a musical instrument while their system was pumped full of adrelinin. If it sounds at all, it ain't gonna sound good no it ain't!!

The Liberals Pacifist posters .
The Liberal Anti War Pacifist posters "Damning Sowells thoughts and Police are the exact same anti War Liberals Damning America in this War on terrorism .
These are the SAME HUMAN RIGHTS CROWD THAT SAID LEAVE SADDAM ALONE ... WHO MURDERED , TORCHED , RAPPED AND GASED 2. 3 Million of his own .
That is also the same Liberal crowd that same America was the reason for 9/11 ? If they would have said Hollywood Liberals that show lots of Skin to Moslems(A SIN TO THEM ) and make anti America movies and that America is bad that could be a reason AL QUADA HATES US .
When a man is shooting at you to kill you in War on on the Street or is trying to kill you with his 2 Ton SUV ........ You kill or be killed .
Liberals are a far worse enemy to Police and WAR ON TERRORISM than the Criminal population .We know what do with Criminals ...... The world will never know what to do with moronic INSANE anti war Liberals .

How to not get shot by the cops:
Step 1: Don't break the freakin' law!
Step 2: If a cop says "Stop!", then freakin' STOP, REGARDLESS of whether you think you've commited a crime or not!
Step 3: If a cop says "Get your hands in the air!", GET YOUR FREAKIN' HANDS IN THE AIR, REGARDLESS of whether you think you've broken the law.

There you have it. Follow those 3 steps, and you are guaranteed NOT to get shot by the cops. Fail to follow any of those 3 steps, then you will receive NO sympathy from me, or any other SANE person.

Nuff said.

Muscle Memory
Believing that lots of training will set a "muscle memory" that will allow police to have one shot kills is like believing that every movie is real to life. Sorry, folks, movies are fiction - even when depicted as "documentaries". Even most liberals know that you can't do what movie heros can do.

For instance, one of the Dalton gang was shot fourteen times in one fight - and lived. If he'd have been in a movie, he'd have died on the first shot. Or the second if the producers wanted to make it exciting for the hero.

Police gone wild...
Virtually every time a cop shoots a citizen in a vehicle the official story is that the citizen was trying to run over the cop.

It's become the motor vehicle "throw down" story of choice for cops involved in questionable shootings.

Because police tactics once considered extreme and brutal are used somewhat routinely these days, it makes it increasingly difficult to give cops the benefit of the doubt when close cases arise.

By adding his voice to those determined to justify virtually anything cops do on the streets, Sowell helps foster what is emerging in America as a third-world style police state.











Auto Control
Clearly an automobile can be a lethal weapon. And the Second Amendment does not protect the right of citizens to own automobiles. Therefore, there should be Automobile-Control laws.

Auto dealers should have the same responsibilities that gun dealers have. Auto purchasers must have a several-day waiting period before taking possession of their autos. During that time, auto dealers must perform thorough background checks, ensuring that the purchaser does not have a criminal record or any mental problems.

You might say that the car is necessary for daily life, but that is why feet, bicycles, taxis, busses, trains, and planes exist. Or as a last resort, family, friends and neighbors, though that might involve a certain amount of gratitude; perhaps the government might develop a no-thanks-necessary welfare-type program for criminals in need of transportation aid.

Thankfully, the government already determines that we have minimal driving skills before we can drive.

I can't believe some Caring Liberal hasn't thought of this, perhaps someone with experience, like Teddy Kennedy, one of our few legislators who actually HAS killed a human with a car.

Once we have these laws in place, perhaps the press will at least investigate an incident such as the one Dr. Sowell describes. With these laws in place, even the press and the libs will realize that cars actually DO present a danger.

Hello insightingtruth
Reply to your post # 69

The reason there are more deaths and injuries in those professions is because the risk management procedures are ignored in most of those accidents.

Injuries from a fall can be fatal. A bullet entering a cop may do far more damage than a typical industrial accident.

I study the field of risk management. I have dead friends because they didn't follow safety procedures. It was their choice. A cop doesn't always have the luxury of saying no. The public would go ballistic if cops did say no.

The logic is not flawed. Risk management is not easy because the procedures are often ignored by those who are in those occupations. Culture influences workers to ignore procedure. If you follow the procedure you are often viewed as a "wuss".

Your characterization of risk management as easy demonstrates a lack of knowledge in the field. Stick to a topic you understand.

Tibby

Training
We used to think we had an advantage in Germany if the Soviets came over the border. 1. We had more sophisticated tanks, even though we were outnumbered at least 4 to 1. 2. We had better gunners. Our gunners usually fired upwards of 200 105 mm rounds per year. The Soviet gunners were lucky if they got 12.
In spite of that, we new all about the pucker factor. The only thing that will diminish that is lots and lots of rounds down range, and that is still not going to make it easy.
I used to teach my wife to back against a wall, sit down, hold the gun out over her knees, and pull the trigger until it clicked empty. She wasn't the "expert" shot I was, hadn't had the millions of rounds I fired, both in practice and competition (never in combat), and I would have done the same thing. And hoped I had more ammo. Dr. Sowell is dead right in this instance. The New York Times, is, as usual, its Anti-American self.

Polly:
I've always said that if the liberals REALLY wanted to protect us, they should ban all vehicles. After all, far more of us are killed or injured by cars every year than by guns/bullets.

Of course, they should also ban football. It has more injuries than any other profession per person. Especially if you consider a bruise as an injury. Every pro player expects to get at least one serious injury during his few years of playing. Shouldn't the liberals be protecting them too?

Yeah, ya really gotta laugh

A couple of times, when discussing police shootings with those of the other ideological persuasion, I've had them ask me, in all seriousness, a couple of things:

1. Why didn't the cop just shoot the gun out of his hand?

2. Why didn't he just "wing" the guy, and end the gunfight?



What can you say to that?

Waaaaay too many Hollyweird movies.


Riders
All good posts to a great article. Are there 'bad' cops out there? Of course and as we find them they should be stripped of their badges but to paint all cops as bad is simply asinine.
To those who think the cops are triggerhappy, I suggest the following. My daughter and son-in-law are cops and my wife and I ride with them on occasion. Anyone can and believe me, you get a whole new outlook on their job.
To those who are cops, I salute you and am grateful for he service you do. Your job isn't easy and the armchair quarterbacks are everywhere (always after the fact though). As one poster said, if you think the cops are bad, call the ACLU the next time someone is trying to break into your house or cause you or your family harm. I'm sure you will be pleased with the results.

beowulfe post # 72
I am sometimes stopped by law enforcement while driving. As an ex-law dog, I always do exactly as you suggest simply because it is what a good citizen should, and is required by the law, to do. Once the officer determines that you are who you say you are and that there is no outstanding warrants for your arrest, they usually, and they are trained to and OUGHT to, thank you for your cooperation and call you by your name that they got from your ID as a personal thank you. If they have time, they will usually give you some short explaination for why they are on the road block, or why they stopped you.

Certainly, I was trained to do that and always did when time allowed. I have my status as a veteran on my Georgia drivers license. THAT usually lets the officer know that I am a disciplined person, can and will follow orders, understand authority, have also served my country in uniform, and that he/she has nothing to fear from me.

But I can tell you from experience, that you can tell almost instantly when the person you stop is going to give you attitude and the sad truth is that MOST young people today are going to do it. Not all of them of course, but MOST are. As law dogs,we are just doing the job the public have elected politicians to tell us to do. Our job should not have any more attitude in it than yours, but it does. That makes many of us just a little short when anybody starts in with the attitude crap. I'm just doing my job and you are going to follow the lawful orders that I give you or you are going to jail and I can and will use all lawful force, including deadly force, to insure that you do. You have the right to remain silent. You have the right to an attorney. If you can not afford one, the court will appoint one for you. Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. But that is the extent of your rights after you have been told that you are under arrest. Your rights are LIMITED and so are mine as a law dog.


part 2
If you don't want to hear all of that, just do as I tell you and we'll both have a nice day. I don't have any options. I've been instructed and trained what to do and I'll do it if it kills me and it may do exactly that. It may kill you too if you don't try to do the right thing and the attitude isn't going to help you any then.

Some folks need killin'
Shoot 'em to the ground.

The Bullet Counters
I've been a Firearm Instructor for more than 35 years, and have been involved in two armed confrontations myself, and I can vouch for everything Dr. Sowel has said. In the adrenaline-stoked heat of an attack, a person's vision, hearing, and sense of space-time are all distorted. NO ONE knows how many shots they fired.

Then again, the New York Times and their brethren love to report the misuse of guns by psychotic killers and street thugs. But they have made a habit of either carefully hiding any legitimate use of a gun for self-defense, or worse, demonizing both police and civilians as "trigger-happy" or "vigilantes" in their coverage.

John Caile SDItraining.net

BrianR
writes, "Waaaaay too many Hollyweird movies."

That is exactly correct. I know way too many people who get most of their information from hollyweird. Since they spent far more time watching tv shows and movies then they ever spent in a classroom or reading nonfiction books, it is understandable that they fall back on what they saw on tv as the 'facts',

When I was growing up the Pink Panther cartoon was big. One of his stunts was to step out of the crashing plane right before it hit the ground to avoid injury. I can remember many many arguments with people over whether that was possible. I still like to use it to test people some times. Ask someone some time whether they think it is possible to leap from a crashing plane before it hits the ground. If they think it possible, you have found a hopeless liberal. If they hesitate before saying they doubt it is possible, you have the typical person. If they hesitate not at all but, dismiss it as sheer nonsense, you have found a conservative or the rare liberal scientist.

Shot in a Car
We live in a world of cars with tinted windows. It is very difficult to see into a car with tinted windows from the front even in daylight. At night it is impossible, so I can see where an officer would feel threatened by a non-complying suspect in a car with tinted windows. That is why, if stopped by the police, I roll ALL of my windows down so the officer can see into my car; for my safety as well as the officers'. Trust me, the officers APPRECIATE this.

post # 81
Is a perfect example of what I mean by "attitude." That person is going to give you trouble. That person isn't going to follow instructions. That person is going to resist arrest and that person is going to have to be forced into hand cuffs. You have to protect yourself from these people. They can put your eye out fighting and as a law enforcement officer, you don't have to take that crap.

So bring on the attitude, but don't be surprised when you get some rough treatment when you do. I am not paid to take your crap and I'm not going to do it. You are going to follow the law and my instructions, or you are going to have to explain your actions to a judge in a court of law. I'll make that as easy to do as you allow me to. It can be civil or it can be nasty; it's all up to you because I don't have any choice.

I'd RATHER not have to arrest you in the first place and if you are even half way cooperative, I won't do it. It's a lot of trouble. I'll even take a certain amount of your attitude and not arrest you until you cross the line, but once you get your mouth ahead of your butt, you butt is all mine then.

Just do right and we'll all get along fine. I am there to help, assist, and protect you and I will do that if you let me. But I'm not there for you to curse and I will not stand for it.

Sowell an Uncle Tom?
NY2VaGirl

You are so typical of the mentality that automatically hates cops regardless of what they do or don't do. Your criticism was Dr. Sowell actually proves the fact that you refer to him as "a Tommin' Negro". Being that you probably have an IQ lower than a piece of wilted okra, I would expect you to have any appreciation of Dr. Sowell's opinions or analyses. If you read even half of what I read in the mainstream media on the Bell shooting, you would have known that there was probable cause for the cops to investigate further, and that one of the officers was nearly mowed down by the automobile Bell and his posse were driving. So NY2VAGIRL, you just keep on marching to the orders of Rev. Al and all those "black interlopers" whose greatest achievement in life is mugging in front of a camera and spewing the same old trash that does no one any good--black or white.

Perry White
Your vision has clearly been clouded by your newspaper background.

Question for Joycey...
Joycey writes: "I'm always a little relieved to hear that a bad guy has been killed by the police. That way the courts will not have to opportunity to let him back on the streets to do it again."

PW: Just curious. Does it matter to you at all whether the "bad guy" was actually guilty of something?

Or is anyone the police shoot a bad guy by definition?

NY2VAGIRL
Go back to Daily Kos where your trash talk will be vigorously lauded.

Though your post was flag-worthy, I hope it will remain on display so that you may be known for your "wisdom."

45caliber
I did not mean to emply that I looked down on people who don't practice or who are not capable of accuracy during a combat shoot.

Polly...
My vision has been informed by my newspaper background.

There would be complaints...
...in any situation. Let's say the cop who had the car coming at him shot only once and got the driver right between the eyes killing him instantly. Imagine the headlines..."Cop assassinates unarmed black man". The only winner in this situation is the media. They get to sensationalize a story and sell subscriptions.

Perry White
Clouded.

For instance, Superman would never have had to shoot the guy trying to run him down. You got spoiled.

Mortals have fewer options.

Same basic question for Ted...
Does it matter at to you if the driver was actually guilty of something or whether the cop's version of events was true?

Perry debates the extremes
Tell me, Perry, how often does an officer shoot and kill someone trying to run over them with a car, let alone shoot one who is innocent? You ASSUME he is innocent based on what? That cops are liars, especially when it comes to being attacked by a car? Chances are that you have maybe one incident at best to "prove" your assumption.

If this was as you assume, then it should be fully investigated. Problem is there seems to be no witnesses who will back your claim. Debating at the extremes is always the weakest of arguments. Try using common sense and keeping your cop conspiracies in reality.

PW
How can you tell if his story was true? Would you rather he didn't shoot and we lose a cop? At least that way we find out the truth right? I would rather take my chances on losing someone driving towards a cop than losing the cop. See, this is the liberal attitude, convict our armed persons any way possible. Our marines are being strung up by the likes of Murtha without being guilty. We don't give our protectors the benefit of the doubt and that is where we are going wrong these days.

Perry White:
Have you ever ridden shifts with your local law enforcement agencies? I suspect not.As a former Deputy Sheriff, I can attest to the fact that the biggest complainers about police actions, are those who know the least about the job. And yes, I have been in few situations that one could claim were dangerous, and requitrd the use of all levels of force.

Dear InsightingTruth
"It is complete fallacy that police are constantly in mortal danger. They do not even make it into the top 10 of dangerous jobs in America. I don't see people fawning over power company linemen, or commercial fisherman, both of which are in far greater danger of death or injury than police."

Electricity and Weather do not have 1) Malice, 2) Intent, or 3) Thought.
They are things, events, they occur and that's that.
Your comparison is erroneous and not to be taken seriously!

Police are facing not only danger, but intentional danger. Sometimes it is spur of the moment, other times it is planned out. But regardless, not having the capacity to read minds, every encounter a police officer has with the public is potentially deadly. You know you are harmless, he doesn't. And if he approaches every situation believing it is harmless, his (or her) life expectancy is going to get short in a hurry.

Just because there are more dangerous jobs doesn't mean that police aren't in mortal danger every day, that is a non sequitur and a conclusion worthy of deaf frogs.

"But, in this article he fails to address the important question. Why do so many people, in and out of the media, have such a negative view of the police?"

Because they are liberals and hate any limits placed upon them and anyone who will enforce them. They are mostly college campus protesters from the '60s and remember it was the police who tried to maintain order when they were infighting chaos. Face it, most liberals only like police or military when it is fashionable to do so and go back to hating them as soon as the coast is clear. (We're seeing the spitters et. al. coming out even now.)

In short, it is because of Media Bias!

jd

Justa thought here reply to No.19

Outstanding piece you wrote, but scary too.

I suppose now that you have written it so well, some ACLU clown will carry it all the way to the supreme court.

I can't resist repeating your piece, "Justa thought", so here goes.

""And what will happen if
some looney court says:
1) tell them you are police
2) tell them you are armed
3) tell them to lay down their weapons and come out with their hands up
4) fire ONCE
5) ask if they are okay
6) ask if they will come out now
7) fire ONCE more
8) ask if they are STILL okay
9) ask if they will come out NOW
10) repeat 5-10 until perp comes out.""

Thanks for the piece. Here's no 11)

11) go to the funerals of those involved.
12) Oh, what the H3ll, it makes good news copy.

.
.

Thank you, local, loyal lefties...
...showing up as expected and, predictably, villifiying the police community and taking sides with the criminal community. Thanks, again, for showing us your true colors.

CKHustler, drwings...
Generally it's a good idea to read a post before attacking it.

drwings, my point is that virtually every police shooting of a "suspect" in a vehicle is explained as an act of self-defense, but numerous documented instances of police misconduct at least raise questions about the veracity of police reports in these instances.

What WillieB, valhalla, insightfultruth and BlackPrince said in their posts rings true.

To CKHustler: Murtha was a Marine and is a respected friend of the military community.

Marines who blithely kill innocent civilians should be "strung up."

Of course it comes as no surprise to find authoritarians backing the authorities no matter what. It's just a slight deviation from the my country right or wrong mantra.







RE: the NY Slimes et al
Most liberal papers (you can count conservative papers on one hand) have turned the front page over to the editorial writers. The idiotorial writers at the Slimes slant so far left they make Trotsky look like Reagan.

I recall in 1988 that a young blonde Italian woman from NJ was shot to pieces in public in broad daylight by at least six cops! WHY was there no outrage? Hmmm. Because she was white? From North Jersey?

She was flagged by a street cop and she got flustered and drove off. He immediately began SHOOTING AT A MOVING CAR ON A CROWDED STREET UNDER AN ELEVATED SUBWAY LINE!!!! THAT made him an idiot right there. NO threat to him to justify shooting so he calls in "Officer needs assistance shots fired!" Then THREE cruiser chase her uptown till she crashes into a pillar in Harlem.

By this time she's so dazed she has NO IDEA what's going on so she reaches for her purse looking for her license and I.D. With NO order to freeze and no warning she is then shot (HIT) thirteen times while seated at the wheel in front of 100 eyewitnesses. One cop, a woman, said "The (rhymes with witch) is still moving! Shoot her some more!"

They TRIED to float the idea that ANY white woman from Jersey is only driving uptown looking for drugs. First of all are there no drugs in Jersey? Then the toxicology report showed clean for drugs AND alcohol. The cops were NOT disciplined except for the nimrod who started it all who got a short suspension.

This got about 5 column inches in the NY press and 30 seconds on the TV news. Sharpton can bite me!!!!!

-Ray
NRA Life Member

Dead Man's 10 seconds!
They call it the Dead Man's Ten Seconds. That's the time a mortally wounded assailant has to gut you unless he takes a round to the medulla oblongata.

I had a chance to speak with Massad Ayoob who is the training officer for the NH State Police. By now he may have taken a well-deserved retirement. He often appears as an expert witness when a licensed or otherwise legitimate gun owner (not all states have licensing requirements) has been hauled into court.

In most cases some weasel of a DA is out to "make an example of these vigilantes". He often had to explain to a jury that a knife wielder if shot from up to 20 ft. away can still rush you and see what you ate for lunch. Most of the time it works unless he has to face an all black jury and the scrote was black and the intended victim was white and the local "Sharpton clone" was pouring gasoline on the proceedings.

-Ray
NRA Life Member

Body Counters
Another fun statistic for Iraq is counting the dead Americans and dead Iraqis. And who are the Iraqis : combatants or civilians? My guess is combatants. Isn't that a GOOD thing?

Perry White writes:
To CKHustler: Murtha was a Marine and is a respected friend of the military community.

Marines who blithely kill innocent civilians should be "strung up."

Except the Haditha Marines were exonerated, and it was found that there was undue command influence in use. Additionally, Murtha has NEVER apologized for his comment, and now faces a libel and slander lawsuit. He's as much a backstabber as is John "Rice in the Butt" Kerry.

Charlie...
If Iraqi troops were occupying America, would you be a citizen or a combatant?

Lumberjack 7392 writes...
"Have you ever ridden shifts with your local law enforcement agencies? I suspect not.As a former Deputy Sheriff, I can attest to the fact that the biggest complainers about police actions, are those who know the least about the job...

PW: I know as much about police work as anybody posting on TH, including Sowell.

The Law
I have a friend who ALWAYS assumes The Law is guilty until it is proven otherwise. She was a social worker in a boys' reformatory for a short time and there formed her negative attitude toward The Law.

Not having her experience, I tend to side with The Law until it is proven otherwise. It just seems the safer choice if I ever want protection myself.

As John Kerry pointed out, if you choose to remain ignorant, you might end up in Iraq. I'm sure he would add "in law enforcement" if questioned further. It's the mindset.

I didn't vote for John Kerry. His attitude toward those who protect us in just one of the reasons.

The police are clearly wrong....
I remember one time, on a TV show, in this situation the police officer was able to do 3 flips out of the way of the car and shoot the tires out without breaking a sweat, then break open the window while the car was moving and pull the driver out of the vehicle. Clearly that's what the cops in real life should have done.


Disclaimer - this post was sarcastic

Perry White writes:
Subject: Lumberjack 7392 writes...
"Have you ever ridden shifts with your local law enforcement agencies? I suspect not.As a former Deputy Sheriff, I can attest to the fact that the biggest complainers about police actions, are those who know the least about the job...

PW: I know as much about police work as anybody posting on TH, including Sowell.

I suspect Sowell knows a whole lot more about than you do, which in your case is less than nothing.

BTW, you did NOT answer the question. Nice attempt at deflection.

Perry White at #108 wrote:
"If Iraqi troops were occupying America, would you be a citizen or a combatant?"

Though not directed to me, I'll answer that:

If, God forbid, America were some day ruled by three homocidal thug maniacs like Saddam, Uday, and Qusay (sp?) and Iraqis came over and liberated me, then hung around to help maintain and restore order while allowing free elections and helping to rebuild infrastructure and schools, I'd be forever grateful. And I would never denigrate the sacrifices made on my behalf by referring to them as "occupiers" rather than the liberators they are.

If you choose to live under Saddam-like thugs in perpetuity rather than allow a foreign power to assist you in freeing yourself, that's your masochistic call.

Your language ("occupying") and moral relativism, implicitly comparing what the US is doing in Iraq with the occupations of Norway, France, et al in WW2, are sickening.

COMBAT AND ACCURACY
During an incident I witnessed in Nam I can attest to the point that Mr. Sowell is making. It had to do with a group of marines, about 50 moving up a hill to take an entrenched machine gun emplacement out of action. It was incredible what they did that day, their demeanor, their willingness and the combat expertise of their resolve. They not only advanced in a rapid manor but did so with out a casualty among them, this was amazing since the enemy fired almost continually and yet failed to hit one of these men moving into the line of fire. It was a stunning display of courage and also how hard and tough these men dedicated men were. Everyone of them deserved a medal.

The act of combat makes for confusion but the results are never certain untill the dust clears and the bodies are counted.

Dead Man's 10 Seconds
This depends upon the person shot. Some people will immediately go down; others will last longer even after being shot through the heart.

However, this is a known fact. That's why I like something like a .45 caliber gun. The bullet will knock them down, regardless of where they are hit, and it gives them time to realize either that they are hurt or they are dead. Most smaller calibers aren't as good.

A policeman in NY City did a thirty year investigation of "One Shot Kills". His info was interesting. The .45 had a 96.5% chance of stopping them instantly if you hit a vital part. A .44 magnum had a 96.4% chance. The next one down was a .357, with an 87% chance. The bottom was a .22 with a 33% chance and a .25 with a 34% chance. A .380 wasn't much better. A 9 mm or a .38 Special had about a 58% chance. Keep that in mind when selecting a gun for protection.

Lumberjack 7392
I'm sure it's a big mistake to take the bait, nonetheless:

I've been on several ride-alongs.

Beyond that, my father was a noted homicide detective who spent the last few years of his 30-year police career as head of the internal affairs department.

He was engaged in two shootouts in the course of his career, and over the years two of his closest friends were shot in the line of duty, one fatally.

My father viewed "badge-heavy" cops who abused their authority and power on a par with ordinary criminals.

For the past two years, I've been doing research for a book/film project focused on the devolution of federal criminal justice system.

Where Is the Outcry Against....
....... auto mfgr's producing deadly weapons?
The anti-gun crown never fail to blame any gun-related death on the gun, rather than the criminal using it. So. one can only wonder why there is no "anti-automobile" crown loudly protesting the so-called "evils" of that horrible weapon---- the car!

killer
NOBODY will cry for you when you are gone.

P.W.


Murtha is a former marine: so what?
Benedict Arnold was a great general as proven by feats at Fort Ticonderoga, Lake Champlain and at Saratoga. Do these actions excuse his later actions? His becoming a traitor is in no way mitigated by his earlier triumphs.
Since being in Congress, Murtha's conduct has been terrible, from his involvement in the ABSCAM incident, in which he just barely avoided prosecution, to his recent undermining of our country and our military.
Does his prior service shield him from being castigated, as is deserved?
No.

I usually agree with dr. sowell
In the instance that Dr. Sowell is referring to, I must disagree with his characterization of the incident. In the Queens, NY shooting the people who were shot, including the young man that was killed WERE unarmed, and no one ever contended that the man attempted to run over the cops with his car. From everything I have read, the cops claimed that one man was arguing with another man, told his friend to get him his gun, and the cops saw the man in the car reach for something. They then opened fire on the suspicion that the man was going to retrieve a gun and managed to kill one and injure two others. There is a serious dispute about whether the officers even identified themsleves before firing on the men.

Further
The cops were tried by a judge who decided that the fact that the men who were shot had criminal records, their testimony was not credible. There was also an insinuation that their criminal records were somehow a justification of the shootings, even though tye cops had no knowledge of that when the shooting occured. How is that just?

We all know that cops have a tough job, and that it is often thankless; but that fact does not mean that cops are always right. We have had a tendency to deify the cops and are reluctant to call them on their mistakes, but this should not be one of those times. What does it say about us when we allow the very symbols of authority to abuse that authority, and then make excuses for their bad behavior? And how do we teach our children to have respect for the law when we allow or policemen, the very embodiment of the law, to brek the law and go unpunished?

Canadian right to bear arms
Here in Ontario, the handgun has been outlawed since the 1930s, which does not mean that you cannot buy one on every street corner in town, or that every Black man over the age of 14 has one stuck in his waistband. It only means that law abiding citizens do not have them. Today, for example, a high school in Scarborough (for a change) was on lockdown because a twentysomething was shot to pieces by law abiding Victims of Exclusion right outside the doors. Not long ago there was a gunfight taking place during daylight hours across a busy main street. One gunfighter was in front of my doctor's office; the other three were firing from the front of the subway station.

Long guns and rifles are not outlawed but you are supposed to register them in our $1.5 billion gun registry (which hardly anybody does and nobody can find anything in it anyway.) You are also supposed to have them locked in a safe, store the ammunition separately, and be totally responsible for anyone who breaks into your house and steals them.

Too close
I am a three tour combat infantry Vietnam veteran; I suspect I have fired up a good portion of a million rounds. While clerking around midnight,two perps came in; both were armed with 30-shot TEC-9's; I emptied out the register (like the company says) which triggered the silent alarm and and went back to the cooler as ordered, when the first perp told the second, "Waste his @ss, we don't need no witnesses." At that, I pulled my .44 Charter arms and shot him at point blank range, dropping him like in the movies. The second perp opened fire, emptying the full magazine - thirty shots at less than 20 feet - all missed me completely. I took two shots and the police was able to pick him up at the ER later. Was I calm and collected? No. It took me three tries to light a cigaret; I was shaking so much. Lessons learned: The police arrived almost twenty minutes later (one unit)- we're on our own out here. Despite having it all on tape, they spent six hours interrogating ME why I opened fire. Upshot, I was fired by the chain even though the video picked up his voice telling his accomplice to kill me - clerks are expendable. The lightly wounded thug received six months probation for attempted robbery instead of murder because his partner lived. He was not charged with attempted murder, despite firing 30 rounds ar me. The one I put in the hospital was also a juvenile, (his surgies and stay entirely paid for by the county) whose family promptly sued me for pain and suffering and diminished capacity (minus one lung and a spleen. They actually found some waste of skin judge to accept the case; it was not until appeal the case was thrown out.

Truth doesn't sell.
If the newspapers can create a big hoopla and get everyone all stirred up they probably sell more newspapers. So it's in their best interest to make everyone angry. Like some one said earlier sensationalize. They don't really care. It's all about getting a big story and money.

I stand corrected
In an earlier post i stated that Mr. Bell did not strike the oficer with his car, but I was mistaken. It is a matter of record that Mr. Bell's car did strike one of the officers.

That said, since many want to focus on the NYT angle, I have found several articles about this case at the New York Daily News that should be of interest. The first (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2008/05/20/2008-05-20_nypd_slaps_7_cops_involved_in_bell_shoot.html) details the charges the NYPD has lodged against these "innocent" officers, the next is a commentary (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2008/04/25/2008-04-25_sean_bell_verdict_sticks_to_script.html) that explains the frustration of blacks and latinos to this verdict, and the last (http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/2008/04/27/2008-04-27_preventing_another_bell_tragedy.html?page=1) gives some ideas on how to avoid this type of situation again.

BTW, did any of you realize that some of the cops involved in the Bell shooting had been drinking in the club prior to the shooting, but were not required to take a sobriety test of any kind after the shooting? Sound like a good police policy to you?

Dave:

I'm sorry to hear about your problems but it doesn't really surprise me. I'm glad you came through it okay. I'm surprised that the initial jury didn't find for you.

But the big problem here was that you almost deprived a lawyer from getting big bucks for defending them in court. And you deprived a court and prosecutor as well.

Again, I'm glad you came through all right. I just can't give you any idea of where you could live that would have made any difference, even here in Texas.

Ask no questions, just do it

At first I was listing the names of the “Stupids” who were posting here, but then I thought that if they were as stupid as they posted, they would know who they were.

I want to see each of you in the long line in the morning volunteering for the Police Force. It’s not that I want to live anywhere that is guarded by the likes of you, or the likes of me, I just want you to see how the real world works.

I want each and every driver of a runaway car to be dead by the time the wheels stop turning. I want each and every person who physically attacks a Policeman, to be dead immediately. We won’t miss anything of value.

I want them dead just because they deserve it, but from the other side, I don’t want a policeman injured, and I don’t want to pay the tax money that would be spent to help that injured police. And certainly not one penny for the injury of the criminal who was injured but not killed, as he should have been.

When defending oneself...
..with a firearm, it takes more than one bullet to get the job done.

As I had written about in response to a Mike Adams article a few weeks ago, I missed a north Vietnamese soldier with a .45 cal. Colt automatic 6 times before hitting him with number 7 which was the last bullet in the weapon.

I had broken a rule and was more than an arm's length away from my machine gun. It was but a few minutes after a particularly vicious, very close-in firefight, and I was filling my canteens in a nearby stream. Because I was away from my gun, I had to go with my pistol. He had walked up on me while carrying an AK-47, but he was looking over at my buddies nearby, apparently not yet realizing they were Americans.

It was an NVA basecamp we just took, and he was obviously just coming home to check out the ruckus. His rifle was slung over his shoulder.

Because of the situation, it was pure panic shooting, but I finally hit him. I shot him in the leg, and when he slowly started to sit up and move his rifle in my direction (I didn't have another magazine), a buddy of mine lit him up with a burst (20 rounds) from his M-16.

Thank you again, Ernie!

In Vietnam, we always fired away at the enemy using lots of ammo until we were absolutely certain the threat had ended. Lighting a cigarette afterward was near impossible due to the shaking.

If we had the chance, we would put another burst in a downed NVA just for insurance. In fact, that's what we called that death preventative - "gettin' insurance".

Those reporter-kids drawing paychecks for those liberal rags have no idea what it's like to face death, and then defend yourself, let alone others.

The viciousness of street predators is almost beyond measure these days, and they need to be put down if they resist arrest, with all the bullets necessary.

Just as dead
Years ago I was ostracized at work because I said the 14 year old boy who was shot and killed by a police officer paid the price for his stupidity. The boy fired from cover, from the dark, in the middle of the night. It was an ambush for who knows what reason. The officer did not know the shooter was a 14 year old boy and I'm glad he didn't. Had he known his hesitation would probably have cost him his life. Responsibility for the boy with the gun belonged with the parents not the officer the boy tried to kill. The lament was that he was just a 14 year old boy. Does the age of the shooter make the officer any less dead? My pity was, and is, for the officer. He was devastated when he learned the shooter was a juvenile. The devastated parents, not so much.

none
My thoughts coming from your keyboard. Well said and thanks.

Dave
It's beyond regrettable what happened to you, and evidence of how our society has decayed in the past couple of decades.

I'm with Jim from California. If we want to end the madness of street predators terrorizing us, we must empty magazines into them until the threats are permanently over. Making the price of crime just too high will make even the dumbest predator think twice.

Then again, the communities of "right-brained" people think the opposite and will always prosecute those who would defend themselves. They light candles in the street for their dead predator homies, and want to imprison those who brought them down. That's why you can buy large homes in Detroit as 1950 prices.

Fire away. It's better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

Thanks,
Pro, ammo is expendable, your people are not.
Perps and enemy are.

Guns and Speaking
I think if you don't own a gun, you shouldn't be able to exercise those rights of speech in Amendment 1. I'm tired of the press, the MSM specifically which has been nothing but a leftis propaganda organization for 45 or more years.


The Pro from Dover / none
ditto.

Sovereign Nation, thanks for the story. I often think of the old adage, "old enough to do the crime, you're old enough to do the time".

I know many cops, a couple have had to bust a cap at a perp, one didn't feel great about taking a life, he knew the punk (which he was), but he was fair warned and armed with a shotgun.


Flagwaver
I am surprised that no one responded to your earlier post, especially the tidbit regarding the police being involved in drinking prior to the shooting. The fact is, none of us posting here (nor Sowell) was there so we actually don't know what really happened.

Guzman, known as "the criminal" on this thread, stated that no one identified themselves prior to the shooting and they (victims) thought the police were hijackers.

Civilian and police witnessess nearby also stated that they did not hear anyone identify themselves as police prior to screaming commands at the victims.

Det. Isnora said he did indentify himself as an officer first and shot after he thought Guzman was going for a gun (never found).

I have two questions:
(1) If the police felt that a Guzman either had a gun or was getting a gun out of the car, why did they not stop the group BEFORE getting in the car. The officers could have then searched each individual and the car for weapons in a safer environment. Visibility by police into the car at night was definitely hindered by the darkness.

(2) Officer Michael Oliver emptied a full mag in his 9mm, reloaded, and emptied another mag. Why was a second mag necessary? Between reloading, he could not tell that no danger existed?

I understand the complexity involved with police work and respect all who decide to enter into the public safety arena (including fire personnel). But it does take a special breed to properly control the authority possessed when wearing the badge and gun. Some are not mentally able to handle decisions that can mean life or death for self or for others. When situations occur that clearly show a lack of decision making skills (particularly involving a fatal shooting), adequate disciplinary action (including legal) must be invoked.


Sovereign Nation
Another story for you.

Two 50+ people were sitting at home about ten one night after one's brother had just left. When there was a knock on the door, the man answered, thinking it was the brother. Three men with ski masks were there.

One immediately shot him with a .22 rifle and he fell. Two of the men ran off. The one with the rifle ran into the house after the wife who ran down the hall to her bedroom. She got a pistol and shot at the man chasing her who stopped and began to fire at her.

The wounded husband crawled to his chair and got a pistol of his own. He crawled to the hall then. Between him and his wife, they killed the attacker, a 14 year old boy.

He and two of his friends were having a sleep over. He decided it might be fun to rob someone and they had agreed. But he fired the moment he saw the man. They ran.

His parents sued. Their argument was that the boy was only 14. They were over 50 and their lives were almost over anyway. The boy had his whole life in front of him. So they shouldn't have shot the boy and should have allowed him to kill them. Needless to say, it was thrown out of court.

It's a sorry world...
...when a man like Dave has to defended himself in court in front of the likes of the perps 'parents'.
Those parents, and the perp should be paying restitution to HIM and the county's taxpayers who footed the bill for said perps' hospitialization.
Apparently, anyone can be a 'judge', God help us all.

Same Mistakes
I would expect better for Mr. Sowell since he should be more on the libertarian side of freedom, but somehow he makes the one fundamental mistake most people make when it comes to freedom. The assumption that "Only the bad guys have run ins with the law so as law abiding citizens whatever happens to these criminals it's ok."

Or is it just that they're lousy shots?
--
Observes Dr. Sowell:

"A factual study of more than 200 real life incidents where the police fired their guns found that most of the shots missed."


A physician who spends enough years covering the Emergency Department (particularly on night shifts) gets to know the local and state police pretty well. Like the uniformed EMTs, we get to be considered something more than the mere taxpaying "civilians" (for whom the police have nothing but contempt), and while they're sipping our coffee - between trips to the Emergency Department's clean and welcoming rest rooms and using our "Dial 9 to get out" telephones - they shoot the breeze with the nurses, the technicians, and the docs.

I don't know how it is in Texas and suchlike portions of Flyover Country, but in rural Kansas and in rural New Jersey (whence I draw my personal experience), the policemen I've met were emphatically *NOT* members of what is called "the gun culture."

They carried firearms, sure, and they qualified (per departmental regulations) with their handguns and riot guns, but they tended not to be knowledgeable about firearms in general, and the overwhelming majority (even in the post-Vietnam years) were not combat-experienced veterans.

They weren't handy with guns. They didn't like 'em, weren't really comfortable around them, and knew them only as means with which to enforce the law.

Intimidation factors, not instruments with which they needed to be skilled or genuinely practiced.

The sad fact is that a great many cops are at best merely uniformed bullies working for protected civil service paychecks and overstuffed civil service pensions.

Get to know them well enough - as an accepted "insider" - and you'll understand quite well why their shooting incidents tend to involve lead flying all to hellangone over the place.

They really don't know any better, and aren't inclined to learn.

--

Concealed carry?
Sowell unwittingly undercuts the argument for civilians carrying guns. He particularly undercuts the recent arguments that if one or a few people had guns in the classroom in Virginia then everything would have been all right, or same in the churches in Colorado.

According to Sowell, most bullets miss their targets. But they might not miss hitting other people, unless the gunman has made sure there is no one around him.

Sowell also undercuts the "training" meme that gun carry enthusiasts put out, i.e., everybody is taught and trained how to use a gun and therefore civilians with guns are safe.

Sowell's article substantiates one of his prime themes, that there are always trade-offs. In this case he substantiates that there are trade offs to the concealed carry laws.

Max Wrote:
"Some folks need killin'
Shoot 'em to the ground."

Some people have strange beliefs. I only believe that it is correct to take a life in order to either save your own or someone else.
I wonder how some folks posting here seem to be so cavalier about the loss of life.

Sowell's unilateral discussion does not leave any room for the possibility that Bell and his friends were only out to celebrate a night of fun before Bell's wedding scheduled for later the day of the shooting. In Sowell's column, Bell is only identified as a criminal whose intentions were to inflict harm on one of New York's finest. However, he fails to explain for what purpose did these three guys have to run over a police officer? They had no weapons nor drugs in the car. They had not committed a crime that night (nor had outstanding warrants)and had no reason to flee from the law. No prior communication occurred with the officers prior to the shooting other than unheard commands being shouted to people in a car with the windows rolled up.

What makes Guzman's statement that they thought the officers (dressed in street clothes) were thugs trying to kill them a lie? Just in the case of the 1999 killing of Amadou Diallo, cops make bad decisions.

What makes Sowell think that absolutely the police were not at fault in this situation? I would not say without hearing all the testimony who is guilty of what but it sure does not appear as easily determined as Sowell makes it to be. He wasn't there and should have written his column using conjecture rather than his idea of the hard facts.

Proud Liberal at #139 wrote:
"Sowell unwittingly undercuts the argument for civilians carrying guns. He particularly undercuts the recent arguments that if one or a few people had guns in the classroom in Virginia then everything would have been all right, or same in the churches in Colorado."

To reiterate: "if one or a few people had guns in the classroom in Virginia then everything would have been all right,"

Whoever said that? The point is, if people had been armed, at least they would have had a chance to defend themselves.

If people had been shooting back at him, perhaps he might not have killed dozens, even if they hadn't killed him outright.

Not being shot at, his aim was very calm and steady, and the results were devestating.


If one person had been accidentally killed by a stray bullet at the horrendous Virginia Tech killings, while taking down the killer after he'd killed only one or two others, would that have been worse than the 30+ who died in the "victim disarmament zone" the college had decreed?

Apparently, you want people to be defenseless sheep, calmly waiting around to be slaughtered.

Totalitarians love your type of lunacy.


Farmer's Wife: you're right
The problem with your example is, humans are precious. God created them, remember?

Evil should be enhialated. You need to learn to identify just what evil is, though.

God did not endorse David's killing Goliath. He taught David that he could overcome evil [at any size] once he knew God. That is the point.

Sowell oversimplified this time
Sowell is one my heroes. I buy his books and read his columns. But this time he biffed it by oversimplifying a complex subject. Unfortunately, in the process, he allowed proud liberal to make some valid talking points.
Similarly, Supreme Court justices Byron White and Antonin Scalia, both good and bright men, never met a conviction they didn't like, REGARDLESS of the facts.
Sowell speaks as if he didn't own, and had never shot, a gun.
In contrast, I have fired countless thousands of rounds, and recently succeeded in obtaining a concealed carry permit.
I also have a friend who was a police officer for nine years, and another friend who has been a national rifle champion, and trained snipers in the military, and SWAT teams in civilian life. They would disagree with Sowell's over-simplification.
The good news is that there are a lot more good cops than bad cops.
The bad news is that, like doctors, they don't keep their own house clean. In other words the good ones virtually never rat out the bad ones. The "Serpico" type is an all but nonexistent anomaly.
Cops receive ten times the training we got in concealed carry class. When a person fires 31 rounds at an unarmed person, he has to stop and reload at least once. That makes it hard for me to be as thrilled as Sowell with his "defensive" performance.
I'm no "liberal". I lean libertarian, and I hate socialism. But before you get all mushy for the boys in blue, you might want to read an experienced police officer's view of the situation in "Arrest-Proof Yourself: An Ex-Cop Reveals How Easy It Is for Anyone to Get Arrested, How Even a Single Arrest Could Ruin Your Life, and What to Do If the Police Get in Your Face", by Dale C. Carson, Wes Denham (ISBN-10: 1556526377, ISBN-13: 978-1556526374).
Every situation needs to be judged by the facts and the law in accordance with due process and the rules of evidence.

Lionheart wrote:
"Sowell's unilateral discussion does not leave any room for the possibility that Bell and his friends were only out to celebrate a night of fun before Bell's wedding scheduled for later the day of the shooting. In Sowell's column, Bell is only identified as a criminal whose intentions were to inflict harm on one of New York's finest. However, he fails to explain for what purpose did these three guys have to run over a police officer?"

Regarding your first sentence -- how would the police defending themselves possibly know that? All they knew was that somebody was trying to run over an officer -- they had every right to defend themselves at that point with deadly force.

Secondly, Sowell only uses the NTY headline to demonstrate how the media misrepresent certain issues to distort reality. NOWHERE in the story does he call the driver a criminal (your term), nor does he claim that there were drugs or weapons in the car. How, exactly, did YOU arrive at those conclusions about what Dr. Sowell had written, unless, perhaps, you were predisposed to a certain veiwpoint?

Get a grip.

Gideon at #143 wrote:
"Sowell speaks as if he didn't own, and had never shot, a gun. In contrast, I have fired countless thousands of rounds, and recently succeeded in obtaining a concealed carry permit."

Dr. Sowell is a former Marine who serve in Korea, as I recall. I believe he's fired a firearm or two.

proper behavior
This thread rightly is full of support for police officers. However not all police officers are entitled to the support. Sometimes police officers make mistakes, some police are crooked, some police are psychologically unfit, and some police are criminals.

Police who do their jobs properly deserve respect but those who do not do not. When a police officer is involved in a shooting there is an investigation to determine whether the shooting was justified. Internal punishment can be given by the police department or the police can be charged and have a jury trial.

Simple involvement in a shooting does not automatically mean that the police are right; some times they are wrong, sometimes they are the criminals. Then they should be punished like any other criminals.

Civil suits against the city and police are justified when it can be proven that the police acted improperly and/or illegally.

This is part of the American system of Justice: no person is above the Law, not even the Law Enforcers.

Some cities, including NYC, have had to pay damages to families of innocent persons killed or wounded by police.

So, review of incidents involving police injuring and killing people is necessary. Internal Affairs departments are necessary: police must police themselves, and when they don't, then the DA must file charges for a jury trial. The police are not above the law simply because they enforce it. Neither are DA's (see Duke lacrosse case) or judges.

Anyone interested in the history of police criminal behavior can look at the Mississippi murders of 3 civil rights workers in 1960's by Sheriffs, 1968 Chicago Police Riot, and Rodney King case in LA.

So the police must be observed and prosecuted just like any other part of American Society when they commit improper or criminal acts.

No person is above the Law.

Valhalla at #146
I think we all agree that police, like all other humans, have their good apples and bad apples. Nobody is claiming that they are all saints, nor is anybody claiming that they are above the law themselves. Any time shots are fired, there should be an objective investigation, in my opinion.

I've known many good, thoughtful police officers. And I've known a few I wouldn't pee on if they were on fire.

That said, it seems from the comments that there are some here, in contradistinction to your initial comment, who automatically believe all police are thugs with badges, guns, and authority, preying on helpless citizens or, perhaps more properly, subjects.

From what I've read, the officers in the case Dr. Sowell uses to introduce his commentary acted reasonably. A tragedy? Of course. Damn shame. But life is full of perils, and nobody was holding a gun to that driver's head ordering him to try to run down the officer.

Number of Bullets Fired
A more important question than the number fired is "where did the bullets that did not hit the suspect end up." There is an important concept called backdrop. Police should not severely risk the lives of bystanders. 4000 bullets fired into a brick wall? Fine. 2 shots fired into a crowded street? Not fine.

Some Truth . . .
Everyone should be forced to be a "cop for a day." How many lies and how many insults are directed their way per 24 hours? They drive around for hours and almost every call they get tells them someone is hurt or dead and on a good day, it's just a stolen thing. Then they get to fill out hours of paperwork for doing their job. And every move they make is scrutinized by criminal and jurist alike. All for just wanting to get home to the wife and kids in one piece. And if they make one human mistake they could be dead or--best case--the criminal presumed innocent walks to terrorize again. They're not "cops" as much as soldiers in a war waged by tolerance and excuses for freedom--the same freedom denied to law abiding citizens who live in fear for their lives . . . just like the cops.

Geee...
Why do only the craziest right-wing nuts ever bother to post on these things? OH wait, its a Sowell article.

Lion
There was a story of a man who went to the zoo and a Lion escaped. The lion attacked a child and the man killed the lion with a large rock. The next day a liberal reporter wrote a column in the paper which stated that an African immigrant was murdered by a white man when he was attempting to eat lunch. A car is indeed a weapon. It is always a problem when a black is killed even in cases of self defense. Counting bullets and attempting to identify that as proof of excessive force is a specious argunment.

Sue the concealed carry?
Can a citizen who was accidently hit when a concealed carry was using a gun to save his own life sue the concealed carry?

Nick at #150
Ah, the typical lib response -- insult.

And nary a consonant nor a vowel to try to refute anything.

How does it feel to go through life feeling superior yet unable to even respond?

Proud Liberal wrote at #152
"Can a citizen who was accidently hit when a concealed carry was using a gun to save his own life sue the concealed carry?"

What about holding the criminal from whom the law abiding, concealed carry citizen is defending himself or herself responsible? Is that so wrong?

Christheprofessor
You said: "NOWHERE in the story does he call the driver a criminal (your term), nor does he claim that there were drugs or weapons in the car."

Below is what Sowell said which indicates that he viewed the young men shot as criminals:

"People who are full of excuses for criminals-- bad childhood, unemployment, unfair world-- sit in the safety and comfort of their editorial offices and presume policemen to be guilty until proved innocent."

You missed the point of the post about drugs ad weapons in the car which was only mentioned to question why Bell felt he would have to run over the officer in the first place. You are correct in stating that officers have the right to protect themselves in such situations but usually perps who attempt to flee at any cost (including runnig over a cop) do so due to avoid impending charges or were actually caught in the act of committing a crime. As you stated, Sowell did not give any reasons for such an action and yet, wrote his column as if those guys were criminals who needed to be shot. I would think that the question regarding the reason Bell would hit a policeman with his vehicle is very important in determining whose version of what happened that night is closer to the truth. Guzman claims Bell did not move the vehicle until guns were drawn in their direction and shots rang out immediately thereafter. You may want to check out both versions of the incident before you criticize someone, ok?


Sorry guys
I know you cops out there have to deal with the scum of the earth out the sometimes.My grandfather was in law enforcement,so I heard a few stories growing up.This was back during prohibition,so he was mostly busting stills.Sad to say he wasn't in it for any high or noble purpose,but just what loot they could cart off after a raid.His own words"I damn near cried when Prohibition ended,cause I couldn't get the good stuff anymore" still resound.Now after the facts have came out in the Kathryn Johnson case here in Georgia,it's going to take some major P.R.to really get the civilians totally back on your side.When LEOs act like the very ones we want protection from,it's going to be very scary for all.

Tomorrow without fail

valhalla Location: MI
Reply # 9
Date: May 28, 2008 - 7:32 PM EST
Subject: proper behavior
This thread rightly is full of support for police officers. However not all police officers are entitled to the support.

==========

So you will be in line to become a policeman early tomorrow, right?

If you can do better, have at it.

Brujo said:
"It is always a problem when a black is killed even in cases of self defense. Counting bullets and attempting to identify that as proof of excessive force is a specious argunment."

I would think that it is questionable anytime that an officer unloads a 9mm on unarmed citizens (black, white, brown, polka dot blue), reloads, and unloads a second magazine for a total of 31 shots. You don't question whether or not when he reloaded that he may have noticed no return fire or movement in the vehicle? The first mag, yeah maybe in an extreme situation, but the second? And what does black have to do with it? Two of the cops were also black. You need to read the articles on what happened that night.

Vietman
If I recall correctly,it was 57,000 rounds per enemy soldier killed.So much for rock n' roll.

Lionhaart at #155
With all due respect, I believe Dr. Sowell had 13 paragraphs between the introductory paragraph, the only one in which he mentioned that one incident, and the paragraph to which you refer. No sale.

You are making something out of nothing. As I wrote, Dr. Sowell only used this case as an introduction to the larger issue of media bias (in this case, police-wrong).

I don't have to review the case, as Dr. Sowell's points have little to nothing to do with that particular case other than the misleading headline.

You might want to learn to stay on topic, mmKay?

tibby:
Police also follow risk management procedures, or don't, to their own detriment. Are police and firefighters who fail to follow prescribed procedures not equally culpable for their injuries as, say, fishermen?

tibby: "The reason there are more deaths and injuries in those professions is because the risk management procedures are ignored in most of those accidents."
IT: No. The reason there are more deaths and injuries in those jobs, is because those jobs are more dangerous.

tibby: "Injuries from a fall can be fatal. A bullet entering a cop may do far more damage than a typical industrial accident."
IT: Maybe, maybe not! A bullet that only grazes one's earlobe does not compare to a fall from a two hundred foot high-tension line support tower.

tibby: "I study the field of risk management."
IT: I respectfully suggest more study time!

tibby: "A cop doesn't always have the luxury of saying no."
IT: Cops say no all the time. Many cops followed "procedures" and waited until the Columbine killers finished their grisly work, and themselves, before risking their precious little uniformed booties!

tibby: "Your characterization of risk management as easy demonstrates a lack of knowledge in the field."
IT: It was not I who said risk management was easy in the professions I cited. You implied it in your post.

tibby: "Stick to a topic you understand."
IT: I will if you will.

There is no argument here tibby; your overly simplistic view is insufficiently nuanced for real world application. You have much to learn Grasshopper!

Proud? "Liberal"
I do not have an answer to your HYPOTHETICAL question.
Posting leagal advice here just may not be the wisest thing to do anyway.

Would you rather be killed or risk litigation?

Why?
I watched part of a shoot out on TV where I knew those police well and I knew how well they could shoot because we often "Shot for quarters".
Some of the quarters in my bag had been pushed back and forth across a shooting bench so many times they were worn thin.

I am amazed at one series of missed shots.
But then again everything affects bullet flight.
Your stance, Your grip, your breathing, angle target is from level, heart racing from excitement, etc.
Probably etc., has the most to do with missing.

Anyone here who would have only fired one shot and let the guy kill him if he missed?

Christheprofessor
With all do respect as well, we'll have to agree to disagree on the topic of this issue. It seems to me that Sowell is concentrating most of his efforts on the idea that people should not be concerned about the number of bullets fired, hence the title "The Bullet Counters". He tries to steer us away somewhat from the Bell case but the entire column still points to this tragedy when you read it. BTW, most of us on this thread agree that there are more good cops than bad ones. However, sometimes the emotional strain becomes too much and cops are not supermen. They experience anger, frustration, and other negative emotions just like we do. Self-control is very important in their professions because they do have guns and an error in judgment can cost lives. Those such cops must be removed from service and face legal action if warranted.

Subject is required
GEEZE these discussions go to hell as soon as the understanding, compromising, kind hearted, compasionate, liberals show up don't they?

Here is news liberals:I don't need and will not seek your permission to blow away ANYBODY that threatens me or my family or friends. If you don't like that, tell somebody who cares.

re: tomorrow without fail - 157
So are you implying that no one can ever criticize anything that a police officer does unless that person should take the job?

My statement was that not every police officer acts properly and therefore is not entitled to support, or respect.

If you really believe that EVERY police officer is without fault then you evidently do not live in the Real World.

Did you ever read the news about some police officers being arrested and convicted for criminal activities? Do you know about the history of police brutality or illegal killings? They resulted in cities paying lawsuits or PO's being sent to prison.

My statement was that there are some LEO's who are not fit PO's. Do you dispute that?

To answer your snide question: even if I tried to become a LEO now I would be rejected. No, not because of my bio but rather one that would disqualify me for most jobs. It is called age.

Yet like other citizens I do have the right to express myself, and question and criticize the authorities, including POTUS.

LionHeart at #164
Fine.

But Dr. Sowell's article wasn't about that case. It was about media bias.....

Go PENS!

Black Prince
I feel the same way if somebody intends to harm my family, friends or me. I have no problem with that at all. But this is not what the topic is about or did I miss something?

Jaydee:
Jaydee: "Electricity and Weather do not have 1) Malice, 2) Intent, or 3) Thought.
IT: True, but irrelevant. Electricity and weather cannot be reasoned with, and have no fear of armed men. So?

Jaydee: "Your comparison is erroneous and not to be taken seriously!"
IT: The relative danger inherent in each profession is just a fact. It contains no error, so it cannot be erroneous. Whether you view the facts as serious or not is up to you.

Jaydee: "Police are facing not only danger, but intentional danger."
IT: Again, so what? Danger is both quantitative, and qualitative no matter the source.

Jaydee: "Just because there are more dangerous jobs doesn't mean that police aren't in mortal danger every day,..."
IT: Some cops go through their entire careers without drawing their weapon. I've yet to meet a career roofer without scars from hot tar.

Jaydee: "...that is a non sequitur and a conclusion worthy of deaf frogs."
IT: I find no fallacies in my arguments, but plenty in yours. Do frogs, even have ears?

IT(in 1st post): "But, in this article he fails to address the important question. Why do so many people, in and out of the media, have such a negative view of the police?"

Jaydee's attempt to answer (#99) is too long to re-post.
IT: Suffice to say his answer completely missed the point. The short answer is this: Police were once respected as peacekeepers, but in our increasingly un-free society they have become regulation enforcers. Regulation enforcers have always been feared and despised. It has nothing to do with media bias.
The media is generally bias in favor of the police. Journalists get their stories straight from police spokespersons. They tend only to question police statements when public outcry demands they take a second look. Ruby Ridge, Waco, Nifong, the Morman sect kidnappings in TX, are just 4 examples. The list is endless.


RE 165
Since when is questioning and criticizing decisions and actions of the authorities, including up to POTUS, restricted to only "liberals"? Are conservatives supposed to keep their mouths shut and just obey and support whatever the authorities tell us how to think and act?

The history of Conservatives is to conserve the values and principles of the American Republic and to show our adherence to them by acting within the Law, and requiring the law enforcers at all levels of government also to obey the Law. Just having a government position or some badge does not mean that that person does not have to obey the same laws as ordinary citizens. When authorities are incompetent, corrupt, or criminal they should receive the proper punishment: dismissal, retirement,
reduced work, prison, civil lawsuits, etc.

Actually this more a Conservative position than a Liberal one.

Secondly, stating that you will blow away anyone that (in your mind) threatens you, your family, or your friends is simply ludicrous. Since you live in a Society you also are constrained by the Laws of the community (local, state, federal) and will have to prove that your actions were not criminal ones. If you cannot then the Big House awaits you.

So, in essence you are taking a Liberal position: you can do anything that you believe is right without having to justify yourself or be punished for it.

How Liberal!

Perry, a lib/lefty dreamer
CKHustler, drwings...
Generally it's a good idea to read a post before attacking it.

drwings, my point is that virtually every police shooting of a "suspect" in a vehicle is explained as an act of self-defense, but numerous documented instances of police misconduct at least raise questions about the veracity of police reports in these instances.

What WillieB, valhalla, insightfultruth and BlackPrince said in their posts rings true.

To CKHustler: Murtha was a Marine and is a respected friend of the military community.
____________________________________

No, Whitey, Murtha is not respected friend of the military community: There were a couple of polls taken in connection with Murtha's accusation of murder in the Haditha (???) incident, and the military most definitely does not consider Murtha anything but the lib/lefty prostitute that he is, certainly not a respected friend of theirs.

Insighting Truth: right on point!
"The short answer is this: Police were once respected as peacekeepers, but in our increasingly un-free society they have become regulation enforcers. Regulation enforcers have always been feared and despised."
Dead on point!

"The media is generally biased in favor of the police."
An over-simplification. Media, like the judges, cops and the rest of the "establishment" serve inherently evil and inevitably corrupting One-Ring (political) Power.
Actually the media and law enforcement have a symbiotic relationship: the media wants column inches and sound bytes to generate ratings, and, thereby, money; and "reload multiple times and fire 31 rounds (150 rounds in one case) into an unarmed person" law enforcement wants to facilitate convictions by polluting the jury pool by convicting accused persons in the press via selective sound bytes, leaks and omissions.
It makes no difference whether "liberals" disregard the Bill of Rights for "liberal" reasons (socialism, "welfare, etc), or whether "conservatives" disregard the Bill of Rights for "conservative" reasons (crime control, national "security", etc). The result is the same: erosion and destruction of individual rights and a traditional social culture based on "Golden-Rule" morality ("ethic of reciprocity", for our atheist friends).

By the way, Christheprofessor, if Sowell is a vet, that just makes him that much bigger of a hero in my eyes. But it doesn't justify his over-simplification of a very difficult and complex subject. If you took offense, Christprofessor, I would apologize, because, I assure you, I meant none. It's just that, as a serious truth-seeker, I don't have much patience for spin, gloss or shortcuts when it comes to life and death and the Bill of Rights. Even when it comes from one of my heroes.

Yes, a perfect write up, but . . . .?
Mr Sowell, does so well righting these kinds of stories! However, while completely ignoring what causes more and more lawlessness all over America, including more and more, no respect for security officers!

Yes, America today is typical of all previous Empires, while wasting trillions upon trillions creating more and more war making garbage, Hittler style, even borrowing money from, mind you, Communist Chinas to fund such, while less and less attention being paid to train millions more policeman that are sorely needed, and truly train them well and also pay them well.

Yes, more and more electronics are being installed just about everywhere, at staggering costs for the Nation, and yet they are the best to create more and more lawlessness. Yes, it takes flesh and blood to teach honesty etc.! Yes, less and less truly qualified individuals will ever want to become part of the police force. Respect is less and less so, because more and more join the police force that should not be the case.


myopine at #170
Yep, that's the one. Thanks for the link.

I've said for years that if it's a pride of lions, a gaggle of geese, and a pod of whales, it should be a treason of journalists.

/not to mention a whine of graduate students

Gideon at #173
No need to apoligize, I took no offense (thank you, though).

I was just pointing out that Dr. Sowell, having been a Marine, is undoubtedly very familiar with firearms, so he is not speaking "as if he didn't own, and had never shot, a gun."

Overlooked "marketing" point
Attention all lovers of individual freedom:
Police injustice DOES happen, and not all that infrequently. ALL intellectually honest individuals will HASTEN to admit that. Even "liberals", as insufferably ignorant of history and economics as they are, know that.
So when so-called "conservatives" pretend, or otherwise infer, that all police actions are always justified, they damage the cause of freedom in the eyes of ignorant socialists who might otherwise be open to at least some of what so-called "conservatives" have to say.
Now if any of you apologists for injustice who are content to allow the bad police apples to remain in the law enforcement barrel want to drop the spin, gloss and intellectual shortcuts and get down to the nitty gritty of specific U.S. Supreme Court cases, I'm your man.
You might want to start by comparing the truth of Hepburn v. Griswold 75 U.S. (8 Wallace) 606 (Feb 7, 1870) with the revisionist-history lies of the Grant-packed majority in Legal Tender Cases (Knox v. Lee, Parker v. Davis), 79 U.S. (12 Wallace) 457 (1870) and Juilliard v. Greenman, 110 U.S. 421 (1884).
You might also want to read Bradley v. Fisher, 80 U.S. (13 Wallace) 335 (April 8, 1872),
Pierson v. Ray, 386 U.S. 547 (1967), and
Stump v. Sparkman, 435 U.S. 349 (1978), where the Supremes granted judges absolute immunity for even the malicious misuse of their powers of office.
You might want to read Mireles v. Waco, 502 U.S. 9 (1991), where even Antonin Scalia, whose judicial philosophy I admire, joined the majority in deciding that it's OK for a judge to order the police, forcibly and with excessive force, to seize and bring an accused person into the courtroom when he failed to appear for the calling of the calendar.
Like it or not, Dr. Sowell (as much as I admire him), from an intellectually honest point of view at least, DID engage in unacceptable over-simplification.

Proud Liberal, LionHeart, valhalla
PL: per your message #139. I see. It is better to be shot and let students be shot than risk accidently harming someone by shooting back at an attacker. I will keep that in mind - right up to the point where someone starts shooting at me.

LH: Am I missing something here? I was thinking we were talking about a single man shot for trying to run down a police officer. All of a sudden we are talking about something else. Are they the same thing? Or did you read wrong? Or is there some other reason for bringing this up?

PL: #152. You can sue for any reason you want if you find a lawyer greedy enough to take your case. That does not mean you will always win, however.

V: #156. I will not respect an officer who has proven that he is not worthy of it. I do respect any officer who has not proven he is bad. From what you are writing it seems that you will not respect any officer since a few are bad unless he proves he is a good one. Is that true?

Speak up, Doc
As one of the most respected black academics in the country, Thomas Sowell can almost DEMAND time on various venues where voices like his are seldom heard. He would do more good in a single appearance on these shows than 6 months hiding out on the pages of Town Hall. JMNVHO.

45 caliber( #178)
The story is basically based on the facts of the Sean Bell shooting. It has been reported that after an argument between Bell's party and another group of men the cops approached Bell's car with guns drawn w/o identifying themselves as police. Bell seemed to be trying to get out of the situation and his car hot one of the officers, who then opened fire on the car. I have links in one of my earlier posts (#124) that you can cut and paste to see articles and columns abut the case from the New York Daily news.

Police: no obligation to protect you
Proud Liberal, LionHeart, valhalla:
If you would Google "police can't be sued for failure to protect", you would find: "Three women sued the District of Columbia for failing to protect them, but D.C.'s highest court exonerated the District and its police, saying that it is a "fundamental principle of American law that a government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any individual citizen." [Warren v. District of Columbia, 444 A.2d 1 (D.C. Ct. of Ap., 1981)] There are many similar cases with results to the same effect. See, e.g., Riss v. City of New York, 22 N.Y.2d 579, 293 NYS2d 897, 240 N.E.2d 860 (N.Y. Ct. of Ap. 1958); Keane v. City of Chicago, 98 Ill. App.2d 460, 240 N.E.2d 321 (1968); Morgan v. District of Columbia, 468 A.2d 1306 (D.C. Ct. of Ap. 1983); Calogrides v. City of Mobile, 475 So.2d 560 (S.Ct. A;a. 1985); Morris v. Musser, 478 A.2d 937 (1984); Davidson v. City of Westminster, 32 C.3d 197, 185 Cal.Rptr. 252, 649 P.2d 894 (S.Ct. Cal. 1982); Chapman v. City of Philadelphia, 434 A.2d 753 (Sup.Ct. Penn. 1981); Weutrich v. Delia, 155 N.J. Super 324, 326, 382 A.2d 929, 930 (1978); Sapp v. City of Tallahassee, 348 So.2d 363 (Fla.Ct. of Ap. 1977); Simpson's Food Fair v. Evansville, 272 N.E. 2d 871 (Ind.Ct. of Ap.); Silver v. City of Minneapolis, 170 N.W.2d 206 (S.Ct. Minn. 1969) and Bowers v. DeVito, 686 F.2d 61 (7th Cir. 1982).
So, since your Big Brother, nanny-state police force is under no obligation to protect the individual, if you don't mind, I will ignore your ignorant anti-gun opinions, and preserve my absolute universal moral right to try to preserve my existence by defending myself against attacks by others. The 2nd Amendment, which all ignorant anti-gunners hate, has formalized that right, even if the aggressor is "government" acting in clear violation of the social contract.

Pro from dover
I was there too and I had a Sgt who told us that full auto was only for certain times and would actually kick @$$ if he found your weapon on anything but single stroke. He had us on range about once a month. Wasn't an actual range, just some targets set up at different ranges. He valued accuracy over quantity.

Three round busts
Are a LOT more effective. The new M-16 has a burst setting and semi-auto. I think they deleted the "rock & roll" setting. Too much waste of ammo.

My cousin trained on a number of weapons in the early Sixties including the M-14 and the old "greasegun". His Sgt. would barely caress the trigger on the greaser and send 3-5 round into a tight cluster the size of your palm from 20 yards. THAT was effective use of an automatic weapon.

He'd learned to control a full auto that precisely in Korea. You did NOT waste a round there if avoidable. Too many Chinese "volunteers" on the other side.

-Ray
NRA Life Member

Attempted 187 by Car.
Prof. Dr. Sowell: Bless you for your wisdom shared, but have we forgotten that the NYTimes is the propaganda arm of the Leftist Secular Progressives, or am I missing something? My agreement with good Milo and Brian should be understood. Keep up your good work, y'all. Blessings, Sincerely, Bob

"Liberals" need to read - Part 1
For the benefit of ignorant anti-gunners, AND for Dr. Sowell, I did a little more legal research.
In the U.S. Supreme Court case of DeShaney v. Winnebago Cty. DSS, 489 U.S. 189 (1989), the majority said: "NOTHING IN THE LANGUAGE OF THE DUE PROCESS CLAUSE ITSELF REQUIRES THE STATE TO PROTECT THE LIFE, LIBERTY, AND PROPERTY OF ITS CITIZENS AGAINST INVASION BY PRIVATE ACTORS. The Clause is phrased as a limitation on the State's power to act, not as a guarantee of certain minimal levels of safety and security. It forbids the State itself to deprive individuals of life, liberty, or property without "due process of law," but its language cannot fairly be extended to impose an affirmative obligation on the State to ensure that those interests do not come to harm through other means. Nor does history support such an expansive reading of the constitutional text. [489 U.S. 189, 196] Like its counterpart in the Fifth Amendment, the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment was intended to prevent government "from abusing [its] power, or employing it as an instrument of oppression," Davidson v. Cannon, supra, at 348; see also Daniels v. Williams, supra, at 331 ("`"to secure the individual from the arbitrary exercise of the powers of government,"'" and "to prevent governmental power from being `used for purposes of oppression'") (internal citations omitted); Parratt v. Taylor, 451 U.S. 527, 549 (1981) (Powell, J., concurring in result) (to prevent the "affirmative abuse of power"). ITS PURPOSE WAS TO PROTECT THE PEOPLE FROM THE STATE, NOT TO ENSURE THAT THE STATE PROTECTED THEM FROM EACH OTHER. The Framers were content to leave the extent of governmental obligation in the latter area to the democratic political processes."

"Liberals" need to read - Part 2
Implying, as IMHO Dr. Sowell did, that the brave, selfless, and glorious boys in blue are out there on the street just busting their guts to protect us, when they are actually mostly enforcing Big-Brother nanny-state regulations (regardless of their constitutional validity), among other things, undermines our 2nd Amendment right to defend ourselves.
If more people would bother to keep up with Supreme Court decisions, there wouldn't be such widespread ignorance and misunderstanding of how the legal "system" works in administering the law (and, hopefully, justice). For example, contrary to conventional wisdom and overwhelming public opinion (especially “liberal”) to this day, there is NO constitutional right to vote, see, e.g., Minor v. Happersett, 88 U.S. 162 (1874).
What really gets my goat is when anti-gun liars (IMHO “lying” includes causing people to believe anything other than the WHOLE truth), especially professional deceivers like little Chuckie Schumer and his anti-individual-freedom “globalist” fascist buddies, deliberately withhold from the public the crucial tidbit of information that law enforcement officers have NO legal obligation whatsoever to protect the individual from the criminal behavior of private actors, BUT AT THE SAME TIME want to deprive the individual of the right and ability to defend himself from criminal behavior by private actors. You see, little Chuckie doesn’t want you to be able to defend yourself, but, AT THE SAME TIME, neither does he want to cost the taxpayers lots more money by passing a law creating an affirmative obligation on the part of law enforcement to either protect the individual, or be sued for failure to do so. In circles of people with IQs higher than their finger-and-toe totals, this is called a “Catch 22”, and is anathema to both intellectual honesty and individual freedom.

gun use
excellent article
How about one explaining the importance of respecting facts?
Regards;

My wife
used to be amazed at the many warnings instead of tickets i got when stopped for speeding. I explained that i treated the officers with the attitude i knew i was speeding and they were just doing their job, nothing personal either way. This acceptance is such a relief to an officer doing traffic control, he finds himself cutting you a break before he realizes it. Reading the posts by Black Prince and other LE personnel, i can see i was on the right track.

Bat Masterson was asked in his later life (as a sportscaster) how he did so well in shootouts. He said I always took that extra half second to line up the sights. Not many can do it. The ones who can often become legends.

Frank Serpico's view
Former deputy sheriff, Black Prince wrote, "The case has been made that some law enforcement is beyond necessary. As a former deputy sheriff, I agree. I quit law enforcement when it became more like the military than civilain work."
That agrees with my friend who served nine years on the Phoenix police force and then quit.
Thanks, Black Prince, for your service!
On his website, heroic whistleblower cop, Frank Serpico, wrote: "I am especially grateful to those Police Officers of good moral character, my heroes, all of you, who have written to me from all over the country and all over the world telling me of your struggle with a corrupt system of justice, or rather with your superiors who corrupt our system of justice. You are the very fiber that holds our system of justice together, the hope of the down trodden. Some people don’t want to believe what some good honest Police Officers are subjected to and have to endure at the hands of their corrupt colleagues who are oftentimes in positions of leadership."
I think the key is to ALWAYS treat the street cops courteously. Don't lie if you were speeding. Thank them for giving you the ticket, if you deserve it.
But NEVER trust the system — "government" is a dangerous servant and a fearful master — and NEVER forget the hugeness of the systemic corruption problem which spawns the "reload multiple times and fire dozens of rounds into the ‘contact’"