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Wednesday, April 23, 2008
Thomas Sowell :: Townhall.com Columnist
The Economics of College: Part II
by Thomas Sowell
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Those who argue that the taxpayers should be forced to subsidize people who go to colleges and universities seldom bother to think beyond the notion that education is a Good Thing.

Some education is not only a good thing but a great thing. But, like most good things, there are limits to how much of it is good -- and how good compared to other uses of the resources required.

In other words, education is not a Good Thing categorically in unlimited amounts, for people of all levels of ability, interest and willingness to work.

Nor is there any obvious way to set an arbitrary limit. These are questions that no given individual can answer for a whole society.

The most we can do is confront individuals with the costs that their choices are imposing on others who want the same resources for other purposes, and are willing to pay for those resources.

Those who cannot bring themselves to face the tough choices that reality presents often seek escape to some kind of fairy godmother -- the government or, more realistically, the taxpayers.

When the idea of conscripting taxpayers to play the role of fairy godmother for some arbitrarily selected favorites of the intelligentsia, "the poor" are often used as human shields behind which to advance toward their goal.

What will happen to the poor if there are no government subsidies for college?

If this argument is meant seriously, rather than being simply a political talking point, then there can always be some means test used to decide who qualifies as poor and then subsidize just those people -- rather than the vastly larger number of other claimants for government largesse who advance toward the national treasury, using the poor as human shields.

Another option would be to allow students to sign enforceable contracts by which lenders would pay their college or university expenses in exchange for a given percentage of their future earnings.

That way, students would be issuing stocks to raise capital, the way corporations do, instead of being limited to borrowing money to be paid back in fixed amounts -- the latter being equivalent to issuing corporate bonds.

Not only would this get the conscripted taxpayers out of the picture, it would also make it unnecessary for parents to go into hock to put their children through college.

Still, the financially poorest student in the land could get money to go to college, with a good academic record and a promising career from which to pay dividends on the lender's investment.

More fundamentally, it would confront the prospective college student with the full costs of all the resources required for a college education.

Those who are not serious -- which includes a remarkably large number of students, even at good colleges -- would have to back off and go face the realities of the adult world in the job market. But not as many jobs would be able to require college degrees if such degrees were no longer so readily available at someone else's expense.

If individuals issuing stock in themselves sounds impossible, it has already been done. Boxers from poor families get trained and promoted at their managers' expense, in exchange for a share of their future earnings.

Even some college students have already gotten money to pay for college in exchange for a share of their future earnings. However, in the current atmosphere, where college is seen as a "right," there has been resentment at having to pay back more than was lent when the recipient's degree brings in large paychecks.

What is truly repugnant to some people about college students issuing stocks as well as bonds is that this not only takes the government out of the picture, it takes the intelligentsia out of the picture as prescribers of how other people ought to behave.

Reality can be hard to adjust to. The most we can do is see that the adjustments are made by those who get the benefits, instead of making the taxpayer the one who has to do all the adjusting.

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Thomas Sowell is a senior fellow at the Hoover Institute and author of The Housing Boom and Bust.
 
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Excellent
On to number III.

What Hitchhiker said!
Excellent, I concur!

Education subsidized
There is a usefulness in subsidizing education, but now that public schools have been hijacked by leftists with a subversive agenda which includes graduating students without mathematic skills, voucher education is the most effective method to give parents a realistic way to give their children the tools of learning and the skills to be independent, competent citizens without giveing up their integrity.
The reality is that free people in the United States are in a war with subversive leftists who have systematically dumbed down two generations and destroyed our cultural heritage. Destroy public education with voucher education. This is not about making points with eloquent arguments against intellectual swine but getting the job done for our children. Pull the plug on public education and go through those leftist bastards like crap through a goose. The harm they do is real.

Dividends
I wonder what percentage Dr. Sowell foresees as reasonable and doable. This is a new concept to me and my initial reaction is that it is a good idea. A lender might have to consider some immeasureables such as the appearance and personality of the student. Lets face it, attractive people earn more than mere mortals do.

This system would be fought against as actuaries would have to consider the overall acievement of groups in evaluating the risk of a single student. We can all imagine where that would go.

Still, it is an intriguing concept. What I really like is the lenders would likely charge a rate based on the field of study. Social science students would likely pay at a higher rate than engineers e.g. I guess dropouts would be bound for their earning lives too. This could really cause young people to be very serious, nothing wrong with that.

The Economics Of College Pt. II
Brilliant Dr. Sowell this would work especially well in the black community, the truly serious students would prosper knowing they would be fully subsidized for school, instead of worrying about paying off student loans, a portion of future income over a specific period would be a motivating incentive to do well, thus decreasing drop out rates.

An intriguing idea
The "percentage of future earnings" system would also increase the universities' interest in teaching legitimate subject matter that would contribute to the students' successes in their careers. As opposed to Womyn's Studies and similar garbage.

The current system rewards colleges for their alumni's career successes, but only indirectly and weakly as one component of college rankings. Under the proposed system, more success equals higher salaries and greater "dividends."

The downside might be that colleges may decline to offer certain majors because their graduates don't earn enough, and therefore will return insufficient "dividends," to make the departments worth their costs. Of course, those majors could be some of the fields that Prof. Sowell meant by "not as many jobs would be able to require college degrees." Perhaps technical schools or community colleges could fill the gap by providing the limited education these fields really require, rather than the current four-year degrees.

Extend and revise
I realize that my previous post may seem to confuse my use of the terms colleges and universities with Sowell's use of the term lenders, but many universities provide their own funds as financial assistance. If this system were to become as lucrative as I believe it would, then universities would want to cut out the third-party lenders and get an even bigger piece of the action.

Who should pay for college?
I went to college in 1969 as a white female without the funds to pay for the Univ. of Fla.. Relatively speaking, big colleges cost big bucks no matter when it was in history. I wanted to go so my parents co-signed my Federally Insured Loans. The loan repayment started 9 months after you last attended college.... whether you had graduated or not. The interest rate was 8% on the balance owed and it behooved you to pay it back as quickly as possible. 8% is a rather stiff rate by even today's standards and that was in 1969. I ended up $4,800 dollars in debt when I graduated. I quickly got my career started in the field of my degree. That job paid $8,600 per yr. before taxes. One can see that being in debt for that amount was sizeable for the wage I was earning. But within 3.5 yrs. I had paid it back and was debt free. Paying that loan off started building my good credit record/history. I have found that nothing makes one appreciate something more than when YOU have to paid for it yourself. Many kids today don't value the education they are offer for FREE. Their parents pay their ways, cover all their needs, cars and entertainment money and so on and the kids are spoiled and unappreciative. Most of them take those 6-7-8 yrs. to get a 4 yrs.degrees,or quit numerous times or completely. I think a lesson could be learned by these doting parents who allow the young adult to abuse their generousity. Parents should make the child pay for all or part of their college education and for the cars and condos and so forth. It would teach them the value of a dollar and show them how hard it is to earn that money. Without that financial safety net under them, they would be forced to apply themselves. It is the parents job to make sure their child learns these lessons and they do them a disservice when they don't. When they child grows older and matures, they will be so thankful for their parent's wisdom. Linda

What about
the glut on the market of English, Social Studies and History teachers in the schoolhouse market place during the Vietnam War when a student deferment was the "easy way out" from wearing a military uniform, and lots of graduates could not find work in their chosen fields?

No substitute

Great article Dr Sowell. There is no substitute for a student understanding the true costs and benefits of a college education.

ECO 101
The definition of economics defined, as usual, by Thomas Sowell!

Measuring character
"But not as many jobs would be able to require college degrees if such degrees were no longer so readily available at someone else's expense."

Most jobs requiring college degrees do not, in fact, require college degrees to perform those jobs. The requirement is there because it provides a means, however inadequate, of evaluating the prospective employee's potential willingness to work, perseverance, and dedication to the job. Good grades over a four-year period say more about the applicant's motivation than mediocre grades over a six-year period, and the fact that some college or other awarded the applicant a degree gives some assurance that said he/she at least didn’t get into TOO much trouble.

In our Politically Correct age, most questions that speak directly to the applicant's character are verboten, and resumes are useless in this regard given all the lying and exaggeration that so many of them contain. Hence the reliance upon college transcripts.

Good column, good posts, and a great idea from Dr. Sowell.

intelligentsia
The word is an oxymoron.

This is what I want!
I've lived and studied in Sweden and have learnt to appreciate their system. As a society they decided early on that anyone that wishes to go to university should be able to - no matter what background you come from. Therefore, higher education is free.

• All universities are open for those who meet the minimum scholarly requirements. Acceptance is based solely on grades.
• There are no tuition fees (not even for foreigners)
• All Swedish student get an allowance from the state for studying (limited to 6 years)
• All Swedish students are eligible for student loans as long as they keep passing 75% of their courses (limited to 6 years)

Everyone is free to decide whether they wish to spend the time and (future) money to pursue a degree. The state makes an investment in the “human capital” while at the same time making sure that everyone has equal opportunity. It’s a win-win.

The greatest system I've seen!
I've lived and studied in Sweden and have learnt to appreciate their system. As a society they decided early on that anyone that wishes to go to university should be able to - no matter what background you come from. Therefore, higher education is free.

• All universities are open for those who meet the minimum scholarly requirements. Acceptance is based solely on grades.
• There are no tuition fees (not even for foreigners)
• All Swedish student get an allowance from the state for studying (limited to 6 years)
• All Swedish students are eligible for student loans as long as they keep passing 75% of their courses (limited to 6 years)

Everyone is free to decide whether they wish to spend the time and (future) money to pursue a degree. The state makes an investment in the “human capital” while at the same time making sure that everyone has equal opportunity. It’s a win-win.

Pallekuling
Who pays for Sweden's system? Some heavenly entity or the taxpayer? Something tells me that it is the taxpayer. If it is, then it's not FREE. If the taxpayer is not footing the bill, well then it IS a great system.

Dr. Sowell's system
as described above would have worked quite well for me. My high school (and scholarships/bursaries resulting therefrom - given out on political and racist bases rather than achievement or merit) taught me that school is not like working life. I therefore didn't apply myself during the first kick at the cat in college, failed out, and worked for a year prior to trying again. On my "year off", I worked the green chain at a sawmill piling lumber, and decided I never wanted to have to work with my back again. I did much better my second time at college because I had seen the price.

PalleKuling
It sounds great, but there's a potential flaw. Lots of European countries track their students. That is, they put them onto the college track or else some other track. They do this fairly early in life (sometimes at age 11). I don't know about Sweden, but I know that other countries do it.

What that means is that if you aren't on the college track, you won't get in because you won't meet the minimum requirements.

And guess who gets tracked away from college? Poor people, of course.

If so, then Sweden's scheme is nothing but welfare for the rich.

elong
Its not the cost. Its staying in the system. Note that small qualification about passing grades? The percent of Swedes who graduate from "free" college is much lower, i bet, than the percentage of Americans that graduate from the PC afflicted american university system. Grade inflation, meaningless or dumbed down courses, etc. In Europe, a college degree means something. Here, as Mamadoc posted, it is often only a means of measuring willingness to be part of the system, rather than a lazy maverick.

Proper placement.

As Dr. Sowell's commentary so brilliantly illustrates... it's all about where you place the incentives.

This works not just for education, but for any and all other systems. Put the incetives in the right place, and human nature takes care of the rest.

Simply, the free market at its best.

But even though this is not rocket science, will anything like this ever be implemented?

Highly unlikely.

Liberals go after their own interests... and conservatives sit on their hands.

And most of us... we'll just keep falling for all those wonderful "freebies" from all those wonderful politicians.

Ain't it grand.


mamadoc
It took my husband 10 years to recieve his degree as he worked a full-time job with overtime hours and helped to raise our 4 children. I worked full time and paid for room and board and tuition without parental help. It took me 6 years and my grades were not what they could have been. I watched fellow students attend classes, study and party and receive great grades. There are only so many hours in the day and they had plenty of time to do very little. We worked hard to win our success. We were ready to work hard in the real world.

PalleKuling
What is the population of Sweden, and what is the tax rate?

It is not the job of the government of the United States, nor the tax payers, to fund education, especially beyond the basic level. A college/university education is not a right.

Yes, I have a college education, and my family and I worked hard to fund it.

There are many "students" who do not belong in college--they cannot read, write, do basic arithmetic, nor do they have the desire to improve. They are there because someone else is paying for it, and it beats working for a living.

I have an in-law
whose college was paid by her rich grandparents. She didn't care enough about it to graduate with a bachelor's degree. After she married and discovered that her husband didn't make enough to support her in the manner to which she had become accustomed, she went back to get get her bachelor's and masters degrees. Unfortunately, she is one who wants her career to be as a lifelong student. She never did any work using the masters degree. She never had any future earnings, so she would have taken money that would have been used by someone who deserved the helped.

Savage99
But even before the dumbing down of our schools, we Americans were still getting a higher percentage of people into college than European countries were. Why should that be, even if college over there is free? It's because of the European tracking system that I mentioned in my first post. If you're tracked at age 11 onto the vocational track, then you're not going to satisfy the minimum requirements for college because you haven't been trained for it.

It's strange. We capitalistic, evil Americans who supposedly are indifferent to the poor get more poor people into college than the socialistic, moral, sensitive-to-the-poor Europeans do. Plus, the "Economist" a few years back reported that here in America you can start at a community college and end up with a Ph.D., but that that sort of thing is much harder or even impossible in Europe.

Socialism has a long way to go before it is truly egalitarian.

Another Thought
Another thought that no one seems to be adressing. The Military will still put you through college unless something has drastically changed lately. It's a good way to get an education, serve your country and it's a really great way to see your liberal friends choke when you reccomend it for their children.

Once Again
Dr. Sowell is right.

Accountability
There should be howls of protest about the continuing increases in the cost of education - approximately double the COLA, I believe. Sure, we know the increases are caused by da gob-mint's hiking of education benefits. WHO is checking accountability in this area?

Most of what Dr. Sowell presents relates to personal accountability. Rather, the lack of it.

I used the GI Bill, and had no debt when I finished my education. But... the lefties have used the GI Bill experience as a wedge to push for universal education benefits - whether you have "earned" those benefits (military service) or not.

Where is the personal accountability when you get "free" benefits? And... why would somebody serve in the military to fund an education, when it is "free" to others?

Stupid Idea
Every problem has a solution that is simple, easy to understand...and wrong.

Sowell is proposing a ludicrous plan, ad those who think its "brilliant" should refer to the sentence above. Perhaps that is due to his misunderstanding of how financial aid works. He suggests that we means test financial aid and subsidize only the poor. We already do that. As everyone involved knows, financial aid involves a far too complex process of applying, verifying family resources, and then receving aid based on the family's ability to pay.

He is willing to retain the basic system as it stands. Why install a huge, new, cumbersome, discriminatory system on top of it? A system which will affect only the middle class who are too poor to pay themselves and not poor enough to qualify for other aid.

This is a typical conservative process: reserve the real benefits for the wealthy,throw a bone to the poor, and stick it to the middle class.

In addition, what Sowell is proposing is very close to the system in place in other countries that subsidize higher education with student loans. Studnet in those countries don't pay a percentage rate, they pay a proportion of thier income. The difference is that the payment is made to the government instead of private concerns. Most people involved in American higher educaiton woudl love to see that system in place.

Thus, the only difference between what now exists and Sowell's plan is that those who use the system will be, in effect, indentured to the companies that funded them. Those companies will be able to tell their indentured servants
where, when, how much, and in what field they must work.

An absurd idea.



Yo Jack
First of all use spellcheckn unless your grammatical errors are intended to distract from the illogical points made in the post.
As a member of the middle class, I don't feel stuck. I have the same opportunities to achieve whatever success I am willing to WORK for (and work is the opperative word). While those who have more money have more opportunity, that doesn't mean that you or anyone else can't have the same or similar opportunities. If this wasn't so, then how do you explain immigrants who come from other countries, not speaking english, and within 10 years being able to buy a house and have a decent income? It is amazing how those who were born in the greatest country in the history of the world fail to see the unbeleivable opportunity our country affords.

Who said anything about the investors making indentured servants out of the students. Besides, if this were a practice, only those students who are agreeable with this indenture would participate. If they don't like the terms of the contract, DON'T SIGN IT. The real "difference" is the left wants someone else to foot the bill with no accountability. Heck, everyone wants that. It is just not the right thing to do.

Jack
"Those companies will be able to tell their indentured servants where, when, how much, and in what field they must work.

An absurd idea."

I like it better than having a college counselor tell someone, "Oh, yes, American Studies is a great major," having the kid get a degree in it, with massive debt, only to find that he is unemployable.

"This is a typical conservative process: reserve the real benefits for the wealthy,throw a bone to the poor, and stick it to the middle class."

I think the gist of all of his remarks is that under his system, college would be a lot cheaper so it's not true that he would be sticking it to the middle class.

forcing economic reality
...would probably end woman's studies programs. Only a handful of wealthy debutants would waste their own money on such drivel

Funding schools
Finely someone who brings this subject up. I went into my public library a year or so ago and saw a chart that reflected 1/3 of the state of michigan budget goes to schools. (I am sure this does not include universities). I have 2 children in elementary school and they are forcing them to learn things that were taught when I was in high school.
They have brought inNew age thinking that says there is no such thing as maturity, you are what you are. So they go over deep, complex or many forms of math in a single lesson over and over with the thought that if they don't get it this time they will get it next. There is no building block structure where you understand one form of math then go to the next. The other subjects are just as bad. The projects that are given out, there is no way the child could even do 25% of the project alone. The parent plays such an important role in the project that the child just signs his name on the bottom and the teachers tout how advanced the students.

My children are bothon the honor role with straight a's and b's and they are asking us to bring them in to summer school for remedial training because State scores are low. ??? WTF

How about teaching in High School?
Just kidding. How about teaching people only what they need and/or want to learn in that pre-college time? No math past Algebra I is useful to 98 percent of the people on earth. We might as well go back to teaching everybody Greek, Latin and French so they can read Cicero etc in the original. We force people to stay in school until 18 and "graduate" them without teaching the basics of car repair, carpentry, cooking, sewing, gardening(AKA farming),plumbing or a dozen other things they actually need. Economics? Political history? Physical Education?????? For crying out loud at least 50 years ago we could most of us ( not me) run a quarter mile or so without falling down. I had to force my youngest child to drop out. Why would he want to? High school was the best place to meet chicks, score a little weed and plan which parties you were going to attend. If you didn't go to class, no problem - just stay until 10 AM so the school gets the money for the day and split.

interesting idea
At one point when money become tight in college because of family reasons, I looked into a proposal like the one Sowell suggests above, and was laughed at.

I have made enough money in my laugh that it would have been a good deal (and a better deal going forward) but one can see the point on the other end. Suppose I had decided to join the peace corps after college, since a portion of my income is going elsewhere anyway, why not? Would the investor have a say in whether I chose to try to become rich or to devote my life to good works? And of course were I to die young the investor would lose out entirely, would he have a say in what risky behavior I engaged in?

So this is an interesting proposal, but not a particularly serious one for dealing with the costs of education.

Fortunately in a representative democracy like ours, we have a system in place for making such decisions in a way that reflects the will of the people. So we do not have to worry about a single individiual deciding these things for everybody with everybody having no say.

JFP and Ralph
Ralph,

If the middle class isn't stuck right now, in terms of paying for college, then why are we having this discussion? If everything is just fine, why are people here complaining about the high cost of sending their kids to school?

You ask:"Who said anything about the investors making indentured servants out of the students?"
Duh? I did. The scenario you describe is appalling. You can only get money to attend college if you sign your life away to a corporate sponsor.






Yer bogus, Jack!
Markets work only if they are comprised of WILLING SELLERS and WILLING BUYERS in an atmosphere 100% devoid of coercion.
Your reference to Sowell's "misunderstanding of how financial aid works" implies that you know more about "how financial aid works" than Sowell, which I seriously doubt.
In any event, "money" (aka medium of exchange) itself is per se a stupid-human trick, manipulated by the clever to steal the labor of the ignorant and naive.
In theory, money functions as a lubricant for barter in market situations where A wants what B produces but B doesn't want what A produces, and B wants what C produces but C doesn't want what B produces, and C wants what A produces but C doesn't want what A produces.
When the medium of exchange is itself a voluntarily used (non-legal-tender) commodity (e.g. silver, gold, copper, nickel, iron, etc), individual freedom and reciprocal justice between man and man flourishes.
When the medium of exchange is a coercion-based (legal-tender), debt-based manipulation of inherently evil and inevitably corrupting One-Ring "law" specificially designed to protect usury, lenders and the lending industry, individual freedom and reciprocal justice between man and man are dangerously undermined.
The key thing about education is 1) information be freely accessible to all, and 2) the student is willing to take charge and accept responsibility for his own learning.
I pity the idiots who worry about the "value" of their houses expressed in monetary units. A house is what it is and does for your life what it does.

Errata - sorry
The phrase "C wants what A produces but C doesn't want what A produces" should have been "C wants what A produces but A doesn't want what C produces".
Apologies for my haste.

Sowell for president!
Just imagine how much more efficient we could be if only we had a president and government that understood and applied economics 101 to run the country instead of Political Pandering Correctness.

Gideon... I'm bogus?
First off, I have been involved with financial aid for 30 years or so. Yes, I know a good deal more than Sowell, especially if one considers what he has written here.

AS for teh rest, what a bunch of self-important slop.

A good pal, a district court judge,.....
...had an only child who he fully financed when she enrolled in college. She ended up failing the first year due to partying and the usual, "sex, drugs and rock and roll".

He then gave these conditions: Get a job, pay for the next year at a college that would accept her, achieve a 3.2 GPA or better, and then he would pay for the last 2 years of her BA degree.

She took a job at a grocery store and worked long hours to save for her next attempt at a college education. She pulled it off achieveing a 3.8 GPA on her dime.

Dad sprung for the last 2 years as promised. She went on to get a law degree paid for with loans, and legitimate and menial side jobs, and she's now a praticing attorney making a great living. Her loans have long been paid off -- early.

She was a fool to mess with her dad, a Korean war Air Force veteran who came from down-in-the-dirt-poor poverty. But she sure did learn some sound lessons for life!

College Racket
Universities have a sweet deal. They can continue to charge a high tuition rate and people still enroll! Some Universities are charging upwards of 40K per year. Without assistance that would put them in debt 160K.

Open up the market. Allow students the opportunity to learn where ever they want and have them test for the class or classes.

Break the monopoly and watch the costs drop.

End the welfare for the intelligensia and make them actually earn a living instead of on the backs of the taxpayers and students.

Sorry JFP, Forgot you.
You write: "I like it better than having a college counselor tell someone, "Oh, yes, American Studies is a great major," having the kid get a degree in it, with massive debt, only to find that he is unemployable"

Do you have any evidence to suggest this actually happens? I don't know of any evidence that suggests American Studies majors are unemployable. Do you think it wise to screw up the overall system, mainly populated by professionally directed students in order to satisfy your smarmy prejudice against the minuscule num,bers of students who pursue American studies?

Sowell is imagining that the cost would go down. There is no reason to assume that.

Once the government...
...gets its sticky fingers into something, it creates a constituency for more of same. Farm subsidies, college subsidies, Social Security, Medicare, etc.--no matter how counter-productive the government's involvement is. People forget about self-responsibility, they forget that the money has to come from somewhere and when it comes from the government it tends to be spent less efficiently and come with more and more regulative strings attached. They get locked into thinking that the way the government is doing it is the only way it could be done. They become immune to rational argument, as some of the responses reflect. I don't know what to do except keep talking common sense, as Sowell does here, and hope somehow it takes root.

Gideon
Actually markets work with all kinds of outside influences that affect pricing and demand and the like. In this country, as in all others, taxes are a compulsive force in most deals, but that does not mean the laws of supply and demand do not hold here. It just means there is a cost factor that effects where prices will wind up.

No place for the Fed
"The Military will still put you through college unless something has drastically changed lately. It's a good way to get an education, serve your country and it's a really great way to see your liberal friends choke when you recommend it for their children."

YES! I was able to go to school as an active duty Marine, because one of the tuition assistance program (they pay 75% up to a certain yearly cap).

In my case, I attended Park University's Camp Pendleton campus. The professors were knowledgeable business leaders who had real professions in the real world. I learned more about marketing and business than I could have from some tenured, ivory-tower marxist.

My professional life since leaving the Marine Corps has proven this to be true.

Yet another benefit was the existence of ACTUAL diversity of thought among my peers and professors. Even the liberal sociology professor I had encouraged dissent.

The federal government has NO PLACE WHATSOEVER in the education business. As a matter that is not SPECIFICALLY ENUMERATED in the Constitution (for those with a taxpayer-funded education, that is the document that governs the conduct of our federal government, not the states or the individuals), it should be left up to the states; or, better still the individual.

new school
What about a system such as they (at least used to) have in England (and maybe other European countries, i'm not sure), with the smartest kids attending the "Marxist, women-studies loving" universities, and the less academically inclined being funneled into trade schools?
Another question--how come a generation ago a person could get a well-paid job, with health insurance and pension and a couple of days off a year to spend with family, without a college degree?
oh and what do so many of the commenters on this site find so appalling about sociology, philosophy, foreign languages, etc? Your disdain for intellectual pursuits is way more rabid and mean-spirited than the left's alleged disdain for god, guns, gay-bashing.

Educational inefficiencies


Forty to fifty years ago I made sales call on the campus of many Universities, selling computers. (They still hadn’t seen one, so the first thing I had to do was educate them.)

I also visited hundreds of other organizations, and believe me the inefficiencies in the use of the education assets — buildings and personnel — was almost unbelievable.

If any corporation would be so lacking in care of the use of their property, they would be bankrupt. But the educational community just cries, “More money, more money!”

They told me that they didn’t hold classes at 8 in the morning, or at 8 at night, because the student didn’t want to attend at that time.

Well whoopee, what if after they got out of those educational cesspools, the person who would write their paycheck wanted them to work at those hours, what then?

Look around on a campus, you will find rooms and whole buildings that are used rarely, you will find so-called professors who teach a class a week. Maybe I should not say “teach,” I mean show up once a week.

The difference between education and training is immense. When I was teaching about computers 50 years ago, I had a couple of weeks to teach a room full of PhDs and graduate engineers, what a computer was, how it worked, and how to program it so you could solve your problem.

And don’t say I didn’t do my job right. I taught rooms full of NASA engineers on computers used to put the men on the moon and since they got there a back, I must have done my job right. Well, my students helped too.


For some reason, Sweden works


Years ago, during the couple of months I attended a university before I got bored out of my skull, one professor was always complaining about the USA. One day he came in with a smile and said, “I got a job in Sweden,” we never saw him again.

About 40 years later when Sweetie and I visited Sweden, we got off the subway at Stockholm University (don’t all tourists do that) and talked to some students about their political ideas. One man, who was getting his doctorate in economics, repeated time after time, “Do you realize how lucky you are to be living in America?” Yes, we truly do.

Often I conducted a Poll. One year the Swedish question was, “Since people who don’t work are provided all of the necessities and many of the frivolities of life by the Government, when are the people who work and pay taxes, going to get tired of paying to support that way of life?” About 25 answers were, “We are already sick of this mess and want to change it, a little.” All agreed that even if the most conservative political party in Sweden wins the election, not much will change.

On our second visit to Stockholm I spent part of one day trying to find where to take Sweetie for lunch the next day. I really did conduct a sidewalk survey, and I asked ladies I stopped on the street, lady clerks in a couple of stores, and including the ladies at Stockholm’s Post Office, and asked where they would go for lunch if they did not have to pay the bill.

The next day Sweetie selected the Grand Hotel, and it was fine. Stockholm is a lovely city, rather majestic.

While we were eating lunch in the Grand Hotel in Stockholm, a well dressed gentleman told us a joke — “In America you have Johnny Cash, Bob Hope, and President Reagan. In Sweden we have no cash, no hope, and Parliament.”


College Part II
This idea has been done in hospitals throughout the country for many years. If a nurse, physical therapist, or other health care professional wants to complete or get an advanced degree many large companies will pay for it provided their employee will work for them for a few years thus paying back the company. This is a brilliant idea that could easily be put to use in almost any area.

ella
Because most of us have taken these classes and found we were paying for fluff. Try taking economics,finance, accounting, computer science etc. You could sleep through Sociology and ace it.

Jack, ella
I'm not prejudiced against American Studies. I myself have a degree in another area of the humanities, philosophy. But my point was that there are fewer jobs in the humanities, plus (as I learned from bitter experience) those who do get the jobs tend to be those who come from wealthier backgrounds.

So, if you're the sort who needs financial help, and you major in American Studies or something similar, you're likely to end up unemployable. And that's why the "indentured servitude" might not be such a bad idea. At least you've got a guaranteed job when you get out.

Or, if you want a major in the humanities, major in a foreign language because they are much more likely to get you a job.

JFP
I don't think there are ANY jobs in "the humanities". But you are correct in that the job search strategies for liberals arts types have to be different than they are for professioanl types. Networking, which includes a healthy dose of "who you know" is critical.

For Liberal Arts majors, establishing a career path takes a bit longer, but the results are very, very close to what professional degree seekers experience.


I'd prefer...
...that every American have a solid education, including in 'the liberal arts.' I'd prefer that every American have the job skills necessary to thrive. I'd prefer that every American have health care when needed.
The question becomes: Do you cut off your nose to spite your face? By punishing the free-loaders & loafers, do we diminish overall social benefits... which may include getting a 'second-chance' in life, overcoming some bad luck, or not being born wealthy?
As JFK said, "Life is unfair."
Maybe the person destined to cure cancer needs some slack, not worrying from day-one in college about the costs society is shouldering if he chooses to read some literature.

Corporate Enlistment
Corporations could also sponsor students in return for guaranteed participation after graduation, in the same way the Military does with ROTC.

They could say "We'll pay for all or part of your college education if you agree to get a degree that would be useful to us, join our company after graduation and work for 5 or some number of years at an agreed-upon salary".

After the years were up, the person could stay with the corporation or go work somewhere else.

A crack in the Jack
Who said anything about "corporate sponsers" Jack? The term was "lender" and the lender would receive a percentage of the student's future income, wherever the source of the income should emanate. The fomer student could work for the government, private enterprise or become self-employed, for that matter. What is it you really don't like about Dr. Sowell's proposal? The accountability part? Or the fact that the student may have to understand the full value of his/her education and actually pay for it instead of getting a free ride on a large portion of it? Is that what really has your boxers in a bunch? Oh, the horror of reality.

Jack in the Ivory Tower Bean-stalk
Jack's "expertise" is a key part of the problem here. Since he is obviously associated with the university community, he has a vested interest in using his expertise to maintain the status quo. While Dr. Sowell's proposal has about as much a chance of going forward as Jack giving up his high paying bureacratic job, Jack's antipithy toward Dr. Sowell's ideas speaks volumes about the real problem in higher education today. Any idea that doesn't conform to the socialist agenda in the university community is comdemned outright as a "stupid idea"

Clutch wrote:
"Any idea that doesn't conform to the socialist agenda in the university community is comdemned outright as a "stupid idea""

Ah yes, eloquently written by Clutch. Thank you for the truth, finally.

What I see
What I see that I don't know how we can fix is the "cost" of college. I see that whenever any funding becomes available, they simply increase the tuition. This has been happening for some years greatly exceeding the cost of living increases year after year. When the funding drops, the tuition still increases. Or perhaps those were the "cuts" of the Federal budget type, which means the increase was not as much as the complainers wanted, I don't know. Meanwhile, I have visited a few universities I saw in my youth and the change, like many "public" institutions, was remarkable. A remarkable extravagance in spending money, that is. I suppose with all these Taj Mahals out there in need of future support, it will be difficult for a Free Market solution to actually do much about cutting costs. I can see that someone with a backbone could actually cut programs that don't "earn" enough and cut unendowed "chairs" and the like, but what can you do about all those "magnificent" (matter of opinion, they are often appalling to me) structures that need to be heated, lighted, and maintained? I am talking about State schools here. But even the "private" ones ...

With the economic data that tells us that a person with a college degree earns more than a person without one, are we not over a barrel? How can market forces "work" when they are all playing the same games?

Side note: I've noticed that endowment funds are all the rage for many institutions that "serve" the public these days. I have heard that Harvard has such a big endowment it does not actually need to charge any student any tuition at all. How can you fight that?

Oh, and BTW
For persons criticizing Dr. Sowell on the subject of universities today, etc., might I point out that he has been associated with Stanford University for many years? It seems to me that he just might have observed a few things and come to some conclusions about "higher educations."

About tracking
You are right about tracking in Europe. I think that both the French and the Germans do it. In Sweden though anyone who completes high school (theoretical OR vocational studies) are eligable for university. The fact is that even though university is "free" (yes - it's paid by taxes) and available to all - the percentage of the population that goes for a university education is still the same as in the US. So, while there were plenty of freeloaders (just like here) the system did not seem to be abused. Spending on higher education is between 2.2-3.1% (different sources) in Sweden compared to 2.6% in the US.

Enough now about Sweden! I just wanted to describe a country that made a commitment to higher education. There is a lot of areas I believe the government should stay out of. However, when it comes to securing the possibility for anyone who choses to get an education I think it makes both ethical and economic sense.

goyle
WHat you write reveals little awareness of how the system works.

For example, you write that "the student may have to understand the full value of his/her education and actually pay for it instead of getting a free ride on a large portion of it?"

Ths flies in the face of reality, given that the proportion that is a "free ride" has been declining for many years. Except in rare circusmtances, no one gets a free ride.

You ask who brought up "corporate sponsers"? Duh? I did. WHo else do you think is going to loan money to students to go to college? Would you loan a student money to go to college without insisting on a voice in what they studies and where they worked after school?

That brings us to what is wrong with Sowell's plan.

A) It will never happen. Period.
B) If it did, it would create chaos and a system of indentured servitude
C) Part of the system he describes, which provides a means test to provide grants money to low-income students, already exists.
D) It would create a complete dichotomy in education, with those families who could afford to pay the freight going to school and everybody else getting stiffed.

Your claim that I or anyone else is unreceptive to change as a matter of course is absurd. I have a lot of ideas as to how I would change things, most far more radical than Sowell's. It just happens that this particular idea is stupid

Say No to Loans
While writing my blog today, I turned to the columnists for inspiration and found this piece.

I come from a middle-class background, yet my family paid for my college. We were able to do this because we did without a lot of things and because I went to a college that was truly working to keep its costs down. (Grove City College)

There is a big difference in outlook between a graduate who is debt free and one who is saddled in loan debt. I was free to follow my peculiar dream of teaching in North Dakota. The low starting pay in that state would have made it impossible to pay off much student loan debt. Had I been in debt, I would have found a job in a state that paid quite a bit more.

Keeping costs down and avoiding loans make it possible for the graduate to follow his dreams rather than the dictates of his wallet. 10 years later, I'm still living my North Dakota dream and loving it.

Jack,
Your comments of
Thursday, April, 24, 2008 5:25 PM
to
goyle

are prima fascie evidence you don't have a clue how the free market and contract system works.

Your list is a series of non-sequiturs. I can understand how you would vehemently oppose such a system however. You would be off the public teat.

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