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Tuesday, April 01, 2008
Thomas Sowell :: Townhall.com Columnist
Irony in Wall Street
by Thomas Sowell
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There was a real irony in the recent intervention by the Federal Reserve System to provide the money that enabled the firm of JPMorgan Chase to buy Bear Stearns before it went bankrupt. The point was to try to prevent a domino effect of panic in the financial markets that could lead to a downturn in the economy.

The irony is that it was almost exactly a hundred years ago -- 1907, to be exact -- that the original J.P. Morgan arranged a bailout of a troubled financial institution for the same purpose of preventing a panic that could end up with the whole economy declining.

The difference is that J.P. Morgan and his fellow bankers used their own money, while the Federal Reserve System used their power to create money.

What that means is that the value of your money and my money -- all Federal Reserve Notes -- goes down when more Federal Reserve Notes are issued to subsidize the purchase of Bear Stearns by JPMorgan Chase.

It wasn't really a bailout because the stockholders of Bear Stearns lost their shirts. But the firm of JPMorgan Chase got money from the government to seal the deal.

In other words, we all paid to keep Bear Stearns out of bankruptcy, whether we all realize it or not. Whether that was better than the alternative is a separate question -- and one whose answer may never be known.

But the big difference between this year's rescue to stabilize the financial markets and that 101 years ago is that this year's government rescue leads to demands that still more rescues -- including real bailouts -- should be extended to homeowners and others.

Back in 1907, nobody could demand that the original J.P. Morgan bail out more people with his own money. But whatever the government does sets a precedent and causes more special interests to demand that they get the same treatment.

There is another irony in this situation. There was no Federal Reserve System in 1907. That is why Wall Street bankers like J.P. Morgan had to do their own heavy lifting with their own money.

Somehow that did not sit right with the Progressives of that era who, like today's liberals, seemed to think that things should not be left to the market when the government can step in and make everything right.

Such thinking led in 1914 to the creation of the Federal Reserve System.

Unlike other countries, the United States had gotten along for generations without a central government bank. But President Woodrow Wilson thought that the monetary system of the country was too important to let private bankers play such a large role as J.P. Morgan had played in 1907.

Describing the Federal Reserve System created during his administration, Woodrow Wilson said: "It provides a currency which expands as it is needed and contracts when it is not needed."

The power to expand and contract the currency was "put into the hands of a public board of disinterested officers of the Government itself."

Their task was to prevent financial panics, bank failures and a catastrophic contraction of demand. It sounded wonderful -- and such sounds count for a lot in politics.

In reality, however, the biggest financial panic in American history occurred under the Federal Reserve System in 1929, followed by thousands of bank failures and an unprecedented contraction of the money supply by one-third during the Great Depression of the 1930s.

There is no question that the people who run the Federal Reserve System today are a lot more knowledgeable about economics than those who ran it back in the days of the Great Depression. Indeed, the average student who has passed Economics 1 today is probably more knowledgeable than those who ran the Federal Reserve System back during the Great Depression.

Being a disinterested government official does not mean that you know what you are doing. That fact gets left out of the equation in a lot of proposals for new government programs.

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About The Author
Thomas Sowell is a senior fellow at the Hoover Institute and author of The Housing Boom and Bust.
 
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Do we need it?
Could the country function without the Federal Reserve? Powerful question, thanks for raising it, Dr. Sowell.

Road to Financial Ruin
Unfortunately, most students of the liberal arts, including economics majors, will never be exposed to the brilliance that is Thomas Sowell. It took me 30 years of learning to ponder the question "what would happen if there were no longer a fiat money system?" The road to financial ruin is paved with pieces of paper with pictures of former U.S. presidents. As the dollar plummets, we should replace Washington's picture with that of FDR. In Economicmakebelieveville, the solution to our problems is printing more money. Yeah, that's the ticket.

Federal Reserve
An exceptionally poor column.
Just criticism, no suggestions.
It would be difficult to tell from this column concerning the Federal Reserve system, if Dr Sowell understood the system, or not.


the Fed
before the Fed, everything was peaches 'n cream in the USA. We never had a panic, recession, depression or nary a bank run.

He may have said this
Mr Sowell:

"Describing the Federal Reserve System created during his administration, Woodrow Wilson said:

"It provides a currency which expands as it is needed and contracts when it is not needed."
-------
He also said this later, concerning his aide:

"I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country.
A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit.
Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation,
therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men.
We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely
controlled and dominated governments in the civilized world.
No longer a government by free opinion, no longer a government by
conviction and the vote of the majority, but a government by
the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men."

SOURCE: his book, The New Freedom: A Call For the Emancipation of the Generous Energies of a People, chapter 8

"If there are men in this country big enough to own the government of the United States, they are going to own it."
Woodrow Wilson


"The government, which was designed for the people, has got into the hands of the bosses and their employers, the special interests. An invisible empire has been set up above the forms of democracy."
Woodrow Wilson




For me, I agree with Andrew Jackson.
And I do not trust anyone who cannot see the bankers as he and Jefferson, Lincoln, Garfield seen them.

(A central bank) is "a curse to a republic; inasmuch as it is calculated to raise around the administration a moneyed aristocracy dangerous to the liberties of the country." - Andrew Jackson

The authority of ignorance
Much as many people in this country, I really haven't a clue about the fed and monetary policy.

I just wonder if in 2008, any of the Wall Street Wonders would put up his own money for the good of the nation. Second question, who has that kind of money anyway?

Just askin'.

It did from 1776 to 1913
DocJ writes: 12:16 AM
Do we need it?
Could the country function without the Federal Reserve?
----------
quote:
Owen-Glass Federal Reserve Act
1913
In 1913, the Democrats controlled both houses of Congress and crafted a regional, rather than fully centralized, approach to banking reform. Carter Glass of Virginia headed matters in the House and Robert L. Owen of Oklahoma did so in the Senate. The final legislation created 12 Federal Reserve Banks* that would act as central banks for all national banks and other member state institutions. The Banks would not be federal bodies, but private ones owned by the member banks. A Federal Reserve Board was formed to oversee the system and establish policy. Members of the Board would be appointed by the president, providing a considerable measure of federal direction over the system.

A new form of currency was created—the Federal Reserve Note—as a means to solve the problem of inelasticity. The notes were to be backed by commercial credit and reserves of gold of at least 40 percent of the amount of the notes issued.
--------
My only problem with the FED is its a private corporation, yet handed the Constitutional power to issue and value the money supply for the nation.

Against this:
Section 8. The Congress shall have power to..
To coin money, regulate the value thereof, ...
(Not a private corporation as the FED is.)

This is in direct conflict with the US Constitution, how the 1st and 2nd Banks of America were established also.

Because now, there is no gold backing at all for the Federal Reserve Notes and they are printed off 24/7 and with each one printed, inflation increases.

Its also the sole reason behind the 1040 and the IRS as it has become today.

Businessmen are in charge of the nation's economy, and as far as I am concerned its illegal, regardless of Owen-Glass Federal Reserve Act.
My opinion, anyway.



Brother can you spare $1.20
I have been warning repeatedly that this bailout was another step in conversion to pure Communism. I don’t know how long ago it was that Dr. Sowell wrote this column but things have moved on from there. The Bush administration has now proposed “the most sweeping” increase in federal regulations for the banking industry since the great depression.

This is exactly what we did NOT need; more regulation. This is just like the Enron debacle. What we needed was to enforce the existing law and what he got was grandstanding political assh*les like Spitzer and now another bevy of counter-productive regulations. This is one more indictment of Bush and a sure sign of Republican liberalism.

….and what to the Dems say? That it doesn’t go far enough. I guess their plan will be to nationalize the banking industry and “give everyone a free home”. The new song for 2008 will be “Brother Can You Spare $1.20” (a dime in 2007 dollars).

corporate welfare
Sowell is one of the few on the right who actually is consistent. Most conservatives wail and moan when the government helps individuals but sit silent when subsidies go to the "big boys". All of which reminds me of the song Tom Paxton whote after the Chrysler bailout:

Since the first amphibian crawled out of the slime,
We've been struggling in an unrelenting climb.
We were hardly up and walking
Before money started talking,
And it's said that failure is an awful crime.
It's been that way a millenium or two;
Now it seems there is a different point of view.
If you're a corporate Titanic
And your failure is gigantic,
Down in Congress there's a safety net for you.

I am changing my name to Chrysler,
I am going down to Washington D.C.
I will tell some power broker,
"What you did for Iacocca
Would be perfectly acceptable to me."
I am changing my name to Chrysler,
I am leaving for that great receiving line.
When they hand a million grand out,
I'll be standing with my hand out,
Yes sir, I'll get mine

Money
I am not qualified to discuss this one. Therefore, I will digest what Doctor Sowell has said, read the comments and try to learn something. I hope the trolls and moonbats keep quiet as am sure they are as ignorant as I on this subject.

Talent Scout is a liberal
talent scout: "If there are men in this country big enough to own the government of the United States, they are going to own it."
Woodrow Wilson

"The government, which was designed for the people, has got into the hands of the bosses and their employers, the special interests. An invisible empire has been set up above the forms of democracy."
Woodrow Wilson
----------------------
Best argument for progressive taxation -- and in particular, the estate tax -- you could make.

Why wait?
Some on the Left are such wimps. Why wait until you're dead to take the money away from you?

Think what we could do with the billions tied up in the greedy hands of the Ford, Rockefeller, Kennedy and Carnegie Foundations; in the obscenely large endowments of places like Harvard and Yale that are training grounds of the rich who run this country; in Bill Gates and Warren Buffett's hands, or the hands of the creatures in Hollywood who go out to buy mansions, private jets and live in the lap of luxury while the ordinary working people suffer with higher prices for bread.

And here comes an equivocator like Beastie who wants to wait for the malefactors of great wealth to die before we rip their ill gotten gains away from their grasping fingers.

I say take it now. I want to see pampered poodles like Barbra Streisand have to do her own shopping with money she earns at monimum wage cleaning toilets. I want to see the so called "Stars" up close and personal without their lackeys and entourage. What does Oprah do with all her ill gotten gains except try to steer the country to elect a race hustler and bribe taker to the presidency?

Com on, you Progessives, why the measly baby steps? Why not go for the gusto?

Peace, bread and land!

Laborlawyer
Didn't Chrysler pay that money back?

The Fed is here...
to stay. I do not see a way to kill the beast. Given that I am right the best we can hope for is for Congress to set limits on the FED and require complete openness of all their proceedings.

It appears the FED's main concern is keeping inflation at a low level. But how is inflation calculated? Congress needs to establish a measure for calculating inflation and then set a limit for the FED. If inflation is more than 1% or less than minus 1% the FED can take measures.

Congress should demand by law that the FED maintains the purchasing power of the dollar. Pick a base year and demand that the dollar maintain or better the purchasing power of the base year. After all if the FED can control inflation they can also maintain the value of the dollar.

If the value of the dollar were not in free fall many older people, with money in CDs and interest bearing accounts would not be in danger of becoming wards of the state. A monetary system that does not ensure the value of the money and apply some control over inflation is just not a monetary system.

Disinterested Government Official
This statement is utterly false.

First, the Federal Reserve is NOT the government. It is a private organization of unelected people who dictate our nations currency supply.

Second, they are from disinterested. The Federal Reserve is comprised of bankers and financiers who have a direct interest in the economic state of the country.

Why did JP Morgan get such a sweet deal from the Federal Reserve? Because they ARE the Federal Reserve (well, a member of it). This is a vile and corrupt institution that needs to be abolished as soon as possible, but our current administration is proposing giving them even more power and control.

Concerned Americans need to write to their congressmen and demand that this proposal is soundly rejected before we sell our entire nation to a handful of ultra wealthy men. We need to return this country to its real owners: the people.

Dr. Sowell
You are the greatest. "Being a disinterested government official doesn't mean you know what you are doing". The bed rock difference between liberal and conservative thinking.

Ah, the circle is made complete.
The irony, Mr. Sowell, is greater than the history of the Federal Reserve. Wasn't in 2004 President Bush, the Compassionate Conservative, made a speech in which he envisioned every family in America to have their own home?

Now, some four years later, his compassion is coming home to roost on those taxpayers who exercised fiscal restraint amidst a federally subsidized sea of easing interest rates and intrest only loans. The idea may have been good, but Ronald Reagan said it best when he quipped the most dangerous words; "I'm from the federal government and I'm here to help."

Those who could not afford their own house all of a sudden found themselves with four walls for which the rest of us may now end up paying.

This is the height of the sort of economic redistribution envisioned by Woodrow Wilson and the progressives/liberals who followed him. And it is nonsense! The idea of a compassionate conservatism that feeds off the backs of its responsible citizens means that our country is headed for financial ruin. Get ready to be buying your gas in Chinese Yuan.

Deacon:
Please define inflation.

The book can never
replace judgement. Trying to make rules for every decision and going by the "book" is a guarantee of inequity and unintended results. Unforeseen events always occur for which any rules are counter-productive. Further attempts at correction, over time, always lead to to situations like our current income tax regulations. No one undstands them and they can not be applied fairly or even consistently. Laws should contain a sunset clause and indeed, its looking more and more like time to pretty much start over.

As a matter of fact, Knee-jerk
I'm buying yuan with my dollars as we write. First time in my life i'm bearish on America, and i am. I've played enough poker to know one must play the cards, not wishful thoughts.

Deacon
Having congress determine "inflation" would be the worst possible thing we could do as long as other laws are tied to the inflation rate.

In addition, one can not determine a fixed measure of inflation because the things people buy change from year to year. 100 years ago buggy whips may have been a market item included in the "inflation basket" whereas today almost no one buys buggy whips.

I would prefer that they establish several targeted inflation measures that are tailored to specific items. For example, if we are going to base SS payments on inflation the basket should be made up primarily of food, health care, and utilities.

Solutions require knowledge
Since 1969 ,I have in my bookcase a copy of " WHY GOLD" ,40-odd pages of the step-by-step conditions and procedures that late cave-man gradually developed that allowed him to live and flourish among other primitave humans. Some dug for food,some fished,some hunted,some herded animals,etc , but they had a successful if loose community,,,and the system of barter,and science of storage/saving that allowed the more intelligent to survive all seasons. Thieves might exist,but never grow old. Exchange of goods and services made mass survival possible.
For more than 3000 years ther has been international trade over enormous distances.Honest trader got rich,scoundrals was avoided, and thieves were killed,,,but trade grew century by century. Since approx 1200 AD writing/numbers was common enough to rapidly increase the survival of masses ,,, but rewards and punishment (death to thieves) was part of the system of survival. EVERY honest trader and thief had a REPUTATION . Banking and commercial banking developed in recent centuries and the use of silver and gold was the ONLY , I repeat, ONLY , thing that made it possible. Sowell, among others, knows this detailed history of how we got to today. But our paper 'money' allows honest accounting and evaluation to be ignored.
Bottom line for my letter is::: Begin at the beginning by finding a copy of :
WHY GOLD , pub 1968 or 69 by American Institute for Economic Research, AIER , Great Barrington, Mass. Honesty requires me to add----- AIER probably would NOT re-issue the exact same booklet today,,,,, it is not politically-correct in original. I love AIER reports today, but the 1968 item was a masterpiece. Please get yourselves a copy,,,,NO ONE has ever put out a more valuable basic book on money and banking.
Hal Lewis Jr, Petal,Miss.

It's interesting
I always know when I come to the comments section of an article like this, I will find ration-thinking true-blooded conservatives. And I notice the complete lack of the moron echo-chamber diddo-heads that make up the bulk of Townhall.com's posters.

It is obvious that the REAL issues are not the least bit interesting to them. And Bush is their hero...

Thanks T.S. I am praying for our country, but am losing faith.

Savage99
Good comment. I find myself in agreement with you to an extent. Perhaps I am still too naive and believe that America needs our support. Wrong thinking government has gotten us into this mess, for which I can only claim responsibilty since 1973. But maybe it is time for a return to truly American values of hard work and fiscal responsibility, and vote the bastards out of office!

Wall St Bail-Out Has Strings Attached
Since last month Wall St investment banks became wards of the state. Ben Bernecke agreed to take over $29 billion of Bear Stearns debt if JP Morgen could buy the failing investment bank. Morgen agreed to take on the $1 billion of debt if it could buy Stearns for $2 a share (or a paltry $150 million). What a deal! JP Morgen assumes no liabilities other than the $1 billion -the Treasury just prints another $29 billion in new money or uses $29 billion of its $400 billion cash reserves. It doesn't matter, the taxpayers foot the bill in either case. Now the taxpayers own $29 billion in unlcollaterized mortgage securities! Oh Happy Day! JP Morgan, on the other hand owns Stearns $1.7 billion Wall St banking house, and made an instant $4 billion due to Stearns asset appreciations after the sale. Morgan's CEO is obviously laughing all the way to the bank.

Since the taxpayer's are footing the bill, Paulson announced 200 new pages in regulations that will govern investment banking, real estate, and insurance underwriting. Rep Barney Frank, of course is delighted and already says that Paulson's 200 pages are not near enough. The jackals now circle the $13 trillion investment banking market and lick thier chops.

economics the dismal science
I know it's boring, but some of these comments...wow.

1. Inflation (monetary) is an increase in the money supply. It is what Sowell means when he speaks of the govn't creating money to bail out banks. It makes our money worth less in the form of price inflation for goods/services. More money is chasing the same amount of goods/services, hence prices go up. Rising prices do not cause inflation, they are the consequence of it. Hence there is no need for a Fed to "moderate inflation" by tinkering with things. They created it! Lowering rates to spur economic activity causes imbalances in capital flow and hence things like the housing bubble. It sends the wrong message to society and we get malinvestments.

2. Felk, Sowell's "solution" is to get rid of the federal reserve. Perhaps it was so obvious he didn't feel the need to say it explicitly.


Among rep. candidates
Which presidential candidate was it that regularly spoke against the government? Who was it that has spoken against unsound currency for 30+ years? Who was it that warned us the most against government intervention in the economy will further bring down the economy? Some kook named Ron Paul.....and he's the answer to one more question...

As the chickens come home to roost, who was the only candidate that will be able to say "I told you so?"

Food Stamp Use at Record Pace

Food Stamp Use at Record Pace as Jobs Vanish

How bad will this get?

NYT-Driven by a painful mix of layoffs and rising food and fuel prices, the number of Americans receiving food stamps is projected to reach 28 million in the coming year, the highest level since the aid program began in the 1960s.

The number of recipients, who must have near-poverty incomes to qualify for benefits averaging $100 a month per family member, has fluctuated over the years along with economic conditions, eligibility rules, enlistment drives and natural disasters like Hurricane Katrina, which led to a spike in the South.

But recent rises in many states appear to be resulting mainly from the economic slowdown, officials and experts say, as well as inflation in prices of basic goods that leave more families feeling pinched. Citing expected growth in unemployment, the Congressional Budget Office this month projected a continued increase in the monthly number of recipients in the next fiscal year, starting Oct. 1 — to 28 million, up from 27.8 million in 2008, and 26.5 million in 2007.

READ MORE

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/food-stamp-use-at- record-pace-as-jobs-vanish

Mr. Banana Grabber
Thank you for the analysis, and the word "malinvestments" is wonderful.

Thanks MrBannanaGrabber:
Your post is perfect. Let's see if the rest of the posters here ignore you, as they always to me, when I post the same information.

Grandpa 7
There isn't a chance we will ever go back to the Gold Standard. There isn't enough gold in the world to back our current assets balance sheet. We would see an instant assest depreciation and Gold would sky rocket to 4 or 5 thousand dollars an ounce. That is, we would be in the same boat Nixon found himself in 1970 when banks around the world began to demand payment in Gold for thier dollar denominated treasury notes.

Floating currencies do have thier problems. However, in both cases (gold or dollars) the Federal goverment becomes the sole arbiter of currency stability. What got Johnson and Nixon in trouble was a hyper Federal Goverment (The Great Society and Vietnam); the same holds true for Bush (Compassionate Conservatism and the War on Terror). Since 2001, the Fed has increased spending a whopping $1 trillion dollars. Despite increased revenues from his 2003 tax cuts, the Fed continues to run large defeicits mainly due to increased domestic spending.

It all comes down to the Beltway spending beyond its means. Now Obama/Clinton want a bail out for Homeowners. And people wonder why the dollar is in free-fall.

Scratch that
"malinvestments" - priceless!

Savage
Keep playing poker. After all, we don't have a single candidate this cycle that has given a single meaningful speech concerning how to strengthen the dollar. Combine this with the Fed's continued actions on bailouts and printing money, loaning huge amounts to banks to back mortgages at interest rates the the Euro banks refuse to match (causing investors to sell their dollars and invest in currencies that provide better returns), our trade deficits, and then our projected 2009 budget deficit (well over $500 billion), and the dollar has nowhere to go but down. Where it keeps going. I have a bunch of Euro's. When I got them, 90 cents would buy one of them, today, it takes 157 cents (about 5 years). I'm no economic genius, but that's the reality.

And we can still buy foreign currency...
... and remain patriotic if we toss out the bums who want us to pay for their redistribution schemes. Sometimes I feel caught in an eternal Ponzi Scheme with federal programs.

TRUTH
The word "Disinterested" means somewhat interested.It does not mean uninterested.Therefore, for anyone to assume, that these members were not "in it to win it",is naive.In 1907 President Roosevelt at the Behest of J.P.Morgan allowed U.S. Steel to purchase Tennessee Coal&Iron.No anti-trust action was taken against U.S.Steel.This would cause a rift between Roosevelt and his once close friend William Howard Taft.These events were avoidable but the "Bankers" used the cover of the "Progressives" to put the government in their hands.The major "Reforms" which grew out of this incident were the Federal Trade Commission and The Clayton Antitrust Act.Both of these entities received powers similar to those given to the "FED" by Mr.Paulson on Monday.Monitor business,notify it when it is about to get into trouble with government and prosecute bad business practices.Prosecution by the "FED" means withhold credit.Concentration or monopoly is not to be addressed this time.If the American government gave all FED notes back to the "FED" and created it's own currency,the "FED" would have no reason to exist.In that this has not, nor will it be done,tells me something,that is more than IRONIC!

JPK
A slight correctin to your post of 9:13 AM -- replace "Fed" with "federal government" in this sentence: "Since 2001, the Fed has increased spending a whopping $1 trillion dollars. Despite increased revenues from his 2003 tax cuts, the Fed continues to run large defeicits mainly due to increased domestic spending."

Also, your post of 9:01 AM describes the situation so well and concisely, the best I've seen so far. Excellent!

Mr Banna
Your good post left out one phrase. It should have read "an increase in the money supply relative to the supply of goods and services." You get at this idea in the next few sentences, so you obviously just mis-typed. One way to look at ths problem is that the increase in the money supply should be equal to the increase in the GDP plus the increse in population. This makes the increase in money supply roughly equal to the increase in money demand. Of course, there are problems with implementing this policy -- what is money in this era of credit cards, etc.? -- but it's still a good guide.

As for Bear, the proper model for the transaction is probably what happened when Hayden Stone collapsed in the early 1970s. The buying firm, CBWL, got the going business. The debt and the "bad" stuff got left behind in another entity, HS Equities, which was left with the original partners of Hayden Stone. This required no government intervention.

Maybe we can't replicate this transaction today, but there has to be a way to get close enough to it so that we don't have to have We The People on the hook for the mess.

I'm always amazed and disheartened when something fails and is then bailed out because it's "Too Big To Fail." If it's Too Big To Fail, it should be broken into pieces small enough so they aren't Too Big To Fail -- failure is part of the capitalist system and sends valuable information to and through the system.

Barry

Killer
I'm not clear on what you are saying. Teddy Roosevelt was a member of the Progressive Party, therefore, he would not be adverse to the notion that Big Government could solve most problems. Does "disinterest" involve not meddling?

Vic writes:
'I would prefer that they establish several targeted inflation measures that are tailored to specific items. For example, if we are going to base SS payments on inflation the basket should be made up primarily of food, health care, and utilities.'

I think we basically agree. The point I wanted to make was Congress, who we do elect, needs to control the entity that controls the money. Maybe the job of monetary control has gotten so big that even the founding fathers would compromise but I think they would insist that Congress should control the FED. Let the FED do the grunt work and present their case to Congress.

The content of the basket is something that will change over time. We have many more choices now than our grand parents had in the early 1900s. So the basket should try to approximate what a single person would need to feed themselves for a specific period of time. Also, energy costs need to be included. But including basket items that our government has a large hand in would be self defeating.

Knee
Mr. Roosevelt was what we call in POLITE circles, a"Progressive" in name only.He championed some progressives ideas,but he was for the most part a Conservative.The word "Disinterested", is defined by the degree of one's involvement.

Calling All American Business Owners
How is it that an Elect Few are chosen to be bailed out for Poor Business Decisions. As a business owner in the USA, if I make bad business decisions and i end up bankrupt no one but no one bails me out!!! How do i get to be part of the elect few??? I would love to be able to take more risks and not be concerned about the outcome, because the Good Ole Tax Payer will Bail me Out!!! Let them Fail and Fall!!! This is America someone will step up and provide the service. Take a look at the History of Business in America. Woolworth couldnt keep it together and we now have Walmart. So let the chips fall where they may fall!

Bubba
A good book to read on monetary policy is Milton Friedman's "Money Mischief".

For example, the book describes how money was instituted after the War for Independence. Before and during the War for Independence, we had the bank notes, paper money, known as Continentals. Wild inflationary policy made them worthless. After the war, Secretary of the Treasury Hamilton set us up on a bimetal system (which was gold and silver). The government practiced "free coinage" of gold and silver, meaning that if you had a handful of these metals, you could take them to the mint and have them made into coins for no charge.

Friedman recounts the history of the U.S. on the bi-metal system, the Gold Standard, and the Federal Reserve.

Some of it is a bit technical, but overall very educating.

Overall Good Article/Comments
I felt a common thread pulling throughout the article and comments and that is NO ONE with a brain is happy with the way things are today. Great comments on interest, the sunset clause, and the FED, I really can't add much at this late a juncture, but... My issue is that it seems to be more and more the norm that the majority of us are at odds with our gov't (no matter who is in charge) and yet they do not seem to heed our calls. I am not proposing an overthrow of our current system, but I do feel that it is a sad day when the gov't does not fear its citizens... This is just another example of the Richers f***ing the people who made it possible for them to be where they are.

Simple (and relevant) Example
"The Cuno government supported the idle population of Germany's industrial heartland with federal cash grants-in-aid. In effect, passive resistance was financed by authorizing the indiscriminate printing of money. The result was to open the floodgates of uncontrolled inflation. Between early January and November 15, 1923, when inflation finally was brought under control, the German mark in relation to the U.S. dollar fell from an already unprecedented 18,000 to the dollar to an astronomical 4.2 trillion. The social and economic consequences of state-sponsored inflation were enormous and disastrous. Tax collections (and government budgets) became meaningless as money lost its value by the hour. Worse, lifetime savings vanished overnight, while economic life was reduced to barter."

http://www.missouriwestern.edu/orgs/germanclub/inflation2. html

Get use to it America !
Like it or Not and I don't !

America has become slowly but surly a Socialist Nation !
When you ad in Government controlled energy and green house carbon credit taxes .Double Welfare .... RAISE Corp tax now at 35 % second highest in the world , ad taxes to all those that earn above $75,000.00 a year , do away with Capital gains and investment tax credits and take over our heath care you have Russia today and our new president or Comrade Oboma !

ucanthandletruth
"My issue is that it seems to be more and more the norm that the majority of us are at odds with our gov't (no matter who is in charge) and yet they do not seem to heed our calls."

And now you come to the heart of the Ron Paul Revolution. He tapped into this discontent and offered solid conservative and constitutional solutions to the problem (rather than Obama's empty rhetoric). The revolution is not dead. It is still very much alive as Republican delegates who support Ron Paul are working around the country to get the Republican platform back to truly conservative principles.

We do not need to overthrow our government, but we do need to return to constitutional law and sound fiscal policies. We need to elect congressmen who truly believe that they are in Washington to represent the people and work for the good of their country.

zapdoodat
"the Fed
before the Fed, everything was peaches 'n cream in the USA. We never had a panic, recession, depression or nary a bank run."

Ah yes, the tired old statist argument that comprises of 'since we're not living in a perfect utopia, we must demand govt. interference to help the little guy/children/minority/homosexual/whatever.'

Please come up with something new.

ECONOMIC ESPIONAGE
Typical of our Washington impacted yam. The rich get richer, the middle class and poor get poorer. This decision is a disaster. Gluttony is a sin and most foreclosures seem to be stemming from gluttony. Call it internal espionage.

So we have two fronts of espionage. Energy policy and pricing using global market factors. I believe a measure of economic autonomy is in order before we go the way of the USSR. Congratulations Mr. President. Call Gore and Kerry and thank them for being so left to allow you to get the White House. Be glad you are counting on history to write your legacy for your constituents now would rank you somewhere near Carter.

IRONY
The "FED" stopped monitoring M3 almost 7 years ago.Now the Government is asking them to re-institute this task.M3 covers derivatives.IF, they did not field comfortable, with the monitoring "TOOLS" they had 7 years ago,what changed?I really "HOPE" this works. Ucanthandlethetruth,and yet Americans go to work and pay taxes,to a government, that does not listen.Do we matter?MAYBE...

Why Congress Should Control Currency
Earlier it was questioned why congress should be allowed to control our currency. The answer is simple: they answer directly to the American people. They are elected officials, and their meetings are public.

Contrast this with the Federal Reserve. They are a group of unelected people who answer to no one, and their meetings are conducted in secret.

Having congress issue currency is a far better solution, even with the potential problems, than trusting our currency to an unelected, private board. Further, the original gold and silver standard (only gold and silver were to be used as legal tender) would restrict congress's ability to generate new money thereby forcing them to a stricter fiscal policy. In other words, they can't just print new money to cover deficit spending. While this presents other obstacles, it keeps the system honest and transparent.

No problem is insurmountable if there is honesty, integrity and justice, but once we allow dishonesty and corruption to go unchecked, there is no end to the destruction it can cause.

Chrysler bailout
I have periodically heard people complain about the Chrysler bailout. Funny, but it is one of the few such initiatives that I can think of that actually worked. Chrysler paid it all back - and ahead of schedule.

Pick another example that actually supports your point. God knows the government has made things worse plenty of times. Remember Reagan's "the most frightening words, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help you.'"


Which is worse, inflation or recession?
He aint heavy, he’s my Fed Chairman. Allan Greenspan’s recent book was as much a tutorial in economics as it was an autobiography. In reading it, I came away with the notion that he and Volker were two men who came closest to embodiment of Wilson’s “disinterested government official”, if minimizing wild swings in money supply is your objective. Even if it’s merely a lofty ideal, having an institution that doesn’t need to wait for a bill to make its way through committee before action happens is a better way to respond to a dynamic market place.

I’m as much a free market man as anyone here, including Dr. Sowell. And whether or not you think he implied it or actually wanted to see him to write it, the abolishment of the Federal Reserve System was not the subject of the above article. It was about irony. The kind of insult about what government can and can’t do well.

I too would like to have known if a Bear Sterns bankruptcy would have caused further inordinate downward pressure on the money supply and credit markets, essentially one in the same if you’ve read Basic Economics.

Since Fed injection of money is more immediately corrosive on savings and value of the dollar, it would have been better to wait and see if letting one perpetrator hang for their fancifully mortgage backed security dalliances had caused a dead cat bounce in the overall economy?

Khomar & killer
Intersting comment Khomar, I never really ever looked at Ron Paul, but you've given me enough motivation to google him tonite. As for you killer, "and yet Americans go to work and pay taxes,to a government, that does not listen.Do we matter?MAYBE..." duh, we still need to pay our bills (btw the cost of living in this country is PREPOSTEROUS) and if you don't pay taxes you go to jail (even if you're at issue with how your money is spent), ask mr Gotti or Blade, damn, I meant wesley snipes. The gov't needs us more than we need them, my opinion, or at least my experience. They have just been really good over the last 50-70 or so years in helping a large majority of people to forget that. All gov't needs to do is focus on education (#1 priority in a country that wants to have a vibrant democracy), security (within the scope of public will), some social programs (ss, wf, mc can all be boons if done right), and serve as a safety net for the PEOPLE not businesses if sh*t hits the fan (a la the FDR). There are some other things but not too many.

Re: Beastie Boy @ 5:49 a.m.
Beastie Boy (re: Woodrow Wilson’s concern about powerful men in the U.S.):

“Best argument for progressive taxation -- and in particular, the estate tax -- you could make.”

Another great example of fallacious liberal thinking. Even if we assume that Wilson’s sentiments from the early 20th century are still true today, how exactly does it help us to take money away from the most productive people in society and place it in the hands of the government? Contrary to popular liberal belief, the government is not some nebulous, all-knowing, wise entity that instinctively knows what’s best for everyone. Instead it consists of fallible people, each with their own personal agendas, some greedy for power or money, and some who mean well but don’t have a clue. Worse yet there’s something terribly wrong with society when liberals like Beastie Boy believe it is within their rights to simply take the fruits of others’ labor to redistribute as they please. This is the type of thinking that the brilliant economist Dr. Sowell has tirelessly railed against. Looks like we need him more than ever.

zapdoodat
Thanks for the attack on strawmen.

Prior to the Fed, the US had a silly "state banking system", which also created an inflationary pyramid, but built on private banks.

At very few periods did the US have a free market banking system.

A more fair comparison would be the current regulated banking system tot he free system of Scotland prior to the imposition of the Bank of England.

Then again, it doesn't allow anyone to say that any 19th century panics in the US were the fault of "capitalism".

Biggest lie of the entire issue
We cannot have a Gold Standard, a total lie.

"Put down all banks, admit none but a metallic circulation that will take its proper level with the like circulation in other countries,..." --Thomas Jefferson to Charles Pinckney, 1820. ME 15:280

Nothing has changed in this wisdom or truth.

Lets say, ok remove gold and silver backing, that still does not give a private group of bankers the right to control the entire economy of America as we now have it.

This power is the DUTY of the US Congress alone under the law of the land.

When the Fed was created, it did not have the power it does today, but over the years it has gained complete control over all money issues and getting more and more powerful, as we now see with Paulson and the President telling us all how it is going to be, more power to the bankers, not the people.

"Certainly no nation ever before abandoned to the avarice and jugglings of private individuals to regulate according to their own interests, the quantum of circulating medium for the nation -- to inflate, by deluges of paper, the nominal prices of property, and then to buy up that property at 1s. in the pound, having first withdrawn the floating medium which might endanger a competition in purchase. Yet this is what has been done, and will be done, unless stayed by the protecting hand of the legislature. The evil has been produced by the error of their sanction of this ruinous machinery of banks; and justice, wisdom, duty, all require that they should interpose and arrest it before the schemes of plunder and spoilation desolate the country." --Thomas Jefferson to William C. Rives, 1819. ME 15:232

I resent the idea a few men have the right to enrich themselves simply because they own the printing presses.

I wish Andrew Jackson was President, today.

CW

Re: Beastie Boy @ 5:49 a.m.
Beastie Boy (re: Woodrow Wilson’s concern about powerful men in the U.S.):

“Best argument for progressive taxation -- and in particular, the estate tax -- you could make.”
------

CW writes: 11:03 AM
Another great example of fallacious liberal thinking.
-------

CW, you must think like a crook to understand both bankers and liberals

Excellent Column
Sowell nailed it on the head once again. The criticism that he failed to offer alternatives is off-base. It is not up to a columnist to correct the ills of the world. Sometimes it is enough to point them out to the people and let them have at the problem. The Feds endless tinkering has indeed contributed to the current monetary "crisis," and its proposed solution is yet more tinkering. When a dog chases its tail, it is a relatively harmless endeavor. I wish I could say the same about the Federal Reserve actions.

It's too bad the conservative party has
devolved into & become synonymous with the party concerned with gays, abortions & re-instituting prayer in school.

As we all know, "prayer" is not going to help our failing economy in the least. I challenge any of you to pray right now for our economy. We all know it's a bogus, superfluous action. And acceptance of gays & safe, legal abortiona have zero to do with economic health.

Now, the U.S. has NO PARTY concerned with maintaining a strong economy. Republicans presidents hatch schemes to simply "print more money" to bailout the failing housing market, ignoring possible consequences (this sounds like Iraq; invade first, think of consequences & the 2 trillion dollar debt later....)


Greg in Cali
America has a "DEBT" based economy.This means, that your money supply is increased through debt.When those "Geniuses" on wall street, started "Marking to Market" they expanded your economy beyond the money supply range.In simple terms,you did not have enough money to go round.Just print more money the unlearned cried.NO!The valueless currency will cause inflation because it has no method of assigning value.Supply and demand works in our attempt to create value but we need an entity(Service or Product).They tried to slip by the unlearned approach and the economy seized up.Banks don't like valueless instruments,no matter whose books there on.The failure of "Bear",would not have hurt this economy.But, the "FEARS" which travel with these type events, might have.That is the "ILLNESS" which needs the Medicine!There is more to COME...

Govt. control of $$
The government always had control of the money. They always made money because of that. It is called seniorage. That is the profit derived from lending out the COINAGE of the mints of the United States and the difference between the commodity value of the precious metals and the face value of the coin.
Our government let go of that system because it restricted financiers in ways that are all too apparent today. You can't play games with real money because there isn't enough of it. The financiers needed a way to expand the money supply outside of the constraints of a limited supply of gold and silver even though fractional reserve banking was a part of that old system. But if you have to deliver real gold and silver coin for redemption then you'd better have a very much higher reserve than if you only have to call the Fed and ask them to start up the presses to satisfy depositor demands for cash.
So the system is set up explicitly so that financiers can GAMBLE and have the FED back them up in a pinch. It has always....or since 1913.... been so.

Mental illness

NO, not talent scout, but Woodrow Wilson.
Take not of these ", they actually mean something.


talent scout: "If there are men in this country big enough to own the government of the United States, they are going to own it."
Woodrow Wilson

"The government, which was designed for the people, has got into the hands of the bosses and their employers, the special interests. An invisible empire has been set up above the forms of democracy."
Woodrow Wilson
----------------------

Beastie Boy writes: 5:49 AM
Talent Scout is a liberal
Best argument for progressive taxation -- and in particular, the estate tax -- you could make.

-------

ts:
I would love to see you explain that notion, not that I believe there is a cure for such incredible ignorance, such that is sustained intentionally anyway with the disease of willful dumbness.

There is no good argument for progressive tax to begin with, let alone in what Wilson was talking about.

Try to stay out of topics like this unless you come to read and learn something.


For what it`s worth...
Disinterested means uninvolved. It is hard to imagine any scenario where men wealthy and influential enough to be selected to the Federal Reserve Board of Governors would be personally "uninvolved" in the decisions affecting currency.

Ron Paul is the only candidate who seems to understand and apply the Constitution to this and other serious matters. He is very much in tune with the founders, yet apparently he is not in tune with many voters. He consistently received around 5% of the vote where he ran.

Can the American people be this dumb? Maybe self-government won`t work.






















Where you ever get this idea from?
para_dimz writes: T 11:29 AM
Govt. control of $$
The government always had control of the money. They always made money because of that. It is called seniorage. That is the profit derived from lending out the COINAGE of the mints of the United States and the difference between the commodity value of the precious metals and the face value of the coin.
---------

This is simply not true.

The Federal Government never had control over the money as the bankers have today
Nor any control over the economy, which was effected only by the nation as a whole by their labors, not the governments meddling as today.

No such thing as interest bearing coins or paper money
Until the rip off artists in banking gained control over the nations economy.
They are scam artists in every sense of the word.

This is strictly an invention of the greedy bankers, interest bearing fiat paper.
Its better than counterfeiting, and more deceitful.


Back then the government was actually what it was set up to be, the servant, not the business operation it is today.



They never seen the Mint as a business venture but as a public service.

"Any person could bring gold or silver bullion and have it coined free of charge or for a nominal fee and exchange it immediately for equivalent value of coin."

The Mint was not a business venture, no more than Printing Stamps was a business, it was service.



Will:
Your comments regarding the Constitution Party are accurate. The Constitution Party is not concerned with The Constitution. The name is a perfect example of a misnomer.

With all its warts, it is the Libertarian Party that most closely followes The U.S. Constitution. They also come closest to being representative of the ideals expressed by The Framers.

The American people...
...are not dumb. At least they are no dumber than other people. The American people are intentionally made ignorant by means of government schools. If you want to begin changing the fortunes of America, start by eliminating government control of schools.

salty
I am not sure that a real determination can be made regarding Ron Paul. The problem is that most people did not get much exposure to Ron Paul at all as he received far less media time than any other candidate, and a lot of that was negative in nature. Nearly every time he was introduced, he was called a "long shot" or a "fringe candidate". The media in the United States is now currently owned by only six companies, and if they don't want a candidate to get exposure, they won't.

The other problem is that Ron Paul's ideas run contrary to the current direction of our government and the media outlets. They profess their doctrine nearly 24/7 in countless ways. In order for people to grasp some of Ron Paul's ideas, you first have to get past the programming that they have been conditioned with. I find it amazing, for example, that preemptive warfare has become a de facto standard in our culture where only a few decades ago it would have been unthinkable. The philosophy used to be "do not start a fight, but be sure you finish it", but it is now "hit them before they can hit us".

It was not until I was forced to step away from media exposure for a while that I was able to see that I too was being misled. For those of you who do not believe me, I challenge you to not watch any media for a month and read the Bible or other books of wisdom from another age. Then come back and look around and let me know what you see.

Khomar:
Good post, good challenge, do you think anyone will take the dare?

Talent Scout:
You said:

“Until the rip off artists in banking gained control over the nations economy.
They are scam artists in every sense of the word.

This is strictly an invention of the greedy bankers…”


I don’t really understand your overly hostile attitude towards bankers. Bankers provide a useful service by making it possible for people to own homes and cars and to start and grow businesses, etc. Like everyone else, including you and me, they want to make money. Are some greedy – yes, but there are greedy people in all businesses (including the church, as we see from the good Rev. Wright’s profiteering).

I worked in banking as an analyst for many years. It can be a VERY risky business and it’s susceptible to economic downturns and the target of much regulation.

I wish you would explain your angry attitude and I’d be curious to know what business you’re in where apparently no greed exists. I don’t mean to sound sniffy – I’m sincerely curious.

Excellent point Khomar
Turn off the tv
Begin to read wisdom of the past ages.

Every day read one of the documents from such sits as this and get a good grasp of history and how western civilization developed slowly but soundly.

Brave and courageous men who laid their lives on the line to bring the Liberty this Nation ONCE had, but no longer.

Just one a day, like a vitamin for the soul.

A TREASURY OF PRIMARY DOCUMENTS
Primary Source Documents Pertaining to Early American History
http://www.constitution.org/primarysources/primarysources.h tml






I don't think Sowell
is advocating for the elimination of the Federal Reserve. It is more like what if reminiscing. What if it had been left in private hands? But, they are here and here to stay.

He did not even mention the recent Fed actions. Perhaps his reference to government officials not always knowing what they are doing is related to that. Bernanke has raised a lot of economic eyebrows recently by opening the discount window to non commerical bank financial intermediaries. In essence, he is injecting liquidity into the financial system without increasing the money supply. The results remain to be seen. It could prove a very valuable tool. James Hamilton has written a lot lately about this on econbrowser.

It has been a dichotomy in the past when the financial system may need liquidity but, the overall economy does not.

will
Is there NO topic discussed on TH in which you will not drag out the homosexuals? You really seem to be obsessed with this topic. You better watch out or some of us will start to think you are gay.

CW
ts:
Let me say this first.
Do not impute to me an attitude that compares anger as only from an evil, and not from anger at evil.
I am no more angry than Jefferson,Madison or Lincoln was, when pointing out the evil of paper money
-------

CW writes:
I don’t really understand your overly hostile attitude towards bankers.

.........
I wish you would explain your angry attitude and I’d be curious to know what business you’re in where apparently no greed exists. I don’t mean to sound sniffy – I’m sincerely curious.
--------
ts:
When I show my wrath against bankers, it is not meant for a single man ever born, especially the honest and hard working people employed by banks.

My anger is reserved and focused on the System of fiat paper that was dreamed up by Crooks in the banking world.

People like Rothchild, Rockefeller, Morgan etc.

I am angry at the system, not men, even the likes of the crooks I mention above.
I am angry over the theft of the labors by this system that was born in deceit and avarice.

Its the system, its illegal as this Nation was Founded.
NO private business has the right to control this nations finances.
It is anti-American and unConstitutional

Hitchiker
Do you understand the statement"He is injecting liquidity, without increasing the money supply"?Please explain!

CVN65
You beat me to the punch. I saw the name "Will" and thought to myself, "There is absolutely no possible way he can read an article about the federal reserve and respond with some type of homosexual comment." Guess I was wrong.

...and the streak remains intact!!....4976 straight responses using the word "gay" or "homosexual"!!

Not even Hamilton was for fiat paper
Even if he was for a central bank.

Everyone of the Founders purposely made sure Article 1, Section 10, Clause 1 was every bit as much a part of the United States Government as the Presidency, the US Congress, Senate and Judicial System.

This means what it says:

Article I

Section 1. All legislative powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives.

Section 8. The Congress shall have power
Clause 5. To coin money, regulate the value thereof (not bankers)

Section 10. Clause 1.
No state shall make anything but gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debts....(not fiat paper)

Khomar
Not sure I fully subscribe to the media conspiracy theory. Most conspiracies fall apart as the participants are too inept to keep them together. Dr. Paul, with all his qualities, is a bit short on personal charisma and more importantly, his constant reference to the Constitution is too remote for most Americans who have never read it.

I believe most people are fat, dumb, and happy. They have a vague acquaintance with world and national affairs but don`t bother to focus until the wolf is at the door..when it`s too late. Americans want an easy and immediate fix and they want to get back to watching "Idol". That`s why liberal panaceas of soaking the rich and rebate checks are more appealing than ideas which will actually make us prosperous again but take longer.

Draconian ideas like staying out of debt, letting the world solve its own problems, working to become self-sufficient, saving for an emergency...these are so foreign to today`s adults that when Dr. Paul speaks of them, he is accused of wearing a tinfoil hat.

He is unquestionably right and they totally lost. Problem is they are going to take us down with them.

killer
Beg to differ about TR. He was one of the original Progressives. He was one of the originals at doing what they thought good, regardless of any Constitutional qualms anyone might have had. I don't find TR very "conservative" at all. He seems to have had a lot of faith in the power of government to do good. I don't think that is a very conservative notion at all. TR's record I think is very mixed.

The modern "Progressive" claimants, having made the term "liberal" one of foul derision, have latched on to the term "Progressive" to try to harken back to the supposed "good works" of the original bunch. I don't think this bunch are up to wiping TR's boots.

Once again I urge the readers to look into Pournelle's Political Axes as a common base to promote meaningful dialog. Information can be found http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pournelle_chart
and
http://www.baen.com/chapters/axes.htm

Both are short reads. The notion is that all political positions can be uniquely charted using 2 axis: Attitude toward government (Is thte government the greatest good or evil?) and rationalism (Do all social problems have findable solutions?)

Constitution allows fiat money
Talent scout:

Art. 1, Sec. 8, cl. 5, which you quote, doesn't say that Congress may create and regulate the value of only gold and silver coins. It simply says that Congress may "coin money" -- which could be iron slugs -- and "regulate the value" of what it coins.

Art. 1, Sec. 10, cl. 1 prohibits the STATES from creating any money other than gold or silver coin.

Taken together, these clauses grant Congress the exclusive right to create fiat money.

This is one of the problems
killer writes: 1:07 PM
Hitchiker
Do you understand the statement"He is injecting liquidity, without increasing the money supply"?Please explain!
----------

Because the bankers have devised their own language, meant to hide the truth and not to reveal the truth, many are confused like Hitchhiker.

Cash money is also called liquidity, so why not call it what it is?
Well, cause truth is not what bankers who devised this rip off scam of fiat paper are about.

Hitchhiker, cash money is the liquidity the bankers speak of, but with this intentional confusion.

Bubble is inflation.
Interest is Usury.
Discount Window is Loans.
Securities Asset is a Government Promise to pay.
A Bond is a Check
Debt is an IOU
Commercial Bank Deposits are Liabilities owed back to the Fed
Reserves assets are the 10 percent of actual cash on hand that enables 90 percent of loans.

A process that repeats itself.
What was a loan on Friday comes back on monday as a deposit.
The deposit is reclassified as a reserve and 90 percent of that is available for loans.
So 1 million fiat dollars gives birth to 900,000 in new loans.

Confused?
You are meant to be confused by this scam
Its all so confusing, I may be confused myself trying to type this scam out.

Wrong
GG-AZ writes: Tuesday, April, 01, 2008 1:45 PM
Constitution allows fiat money
Talent scout:

Art. 1, Sec. 8, cl. 5, which you quote, doesn't say that Congress may create and regulate the value of only gold and silver coins. It simply says that Congress may "coin money" -- which could be iron slugs -- and "regulate the value" of what it coins.

Art. 1, Sec. 10, cl. 1 prohibits the STATES from creating any money other than gold or silver coin.

Taken together, these clauses grant Congress the exclusive right to create fiat money
------------
The Coinage Act of 1792 is explicit.
And the fact is, its Called the MINT Act for a reason.
To make sure NO ONE thought they were for PRINTING PRESSES.

n 1791, Alexander Hamilton suggested the establishment of a national currency. Congress enacted this legislation following his recommendations the following year. It established gold and silver as the monetary standards of the United States with the gold standard regulated at 15 times the value of silver. The dollar was established as the basic monetary unit, and the act also allowed for the creation of a national mint.

Coinage Act (1792)

From: United States Statutes at Large, 2nd Cong., Sess. I., p. 246-251
April 2, 1792

AN ACT

Establishing a Mint, and regulating the Coins of the United States.

Section 1. Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, and it is hereby enacted and declared, That a mint for the purpose of a national coinage be, and the same is established; to be situate and carried on at the seat of the government of the United States, for the time being: And that for the well conducting of the business of the said mint, there shall be the following officers and persons, namely,--a Director, an Assayer, a Chief Coiner, an Engraver, a Treasurer.


Bankers set up the printing presses, not the Founders.

Inflation
There seems to be a great deal of misunderstanding about the nature of inflation and the money supply.

Inflation is a increase in the general price level throughout the economy. It occurs not when the money supply increases, but rather when the money supply increases relatively more (or decreases relatively less) than real production in the economy.

In reality, not all prices rise equally, as dynamic changes in the economy (from new technology, weather conditions, new resource discoveries, etc.) cause the relative prices of some goods and services to rise, and others to fall.

There are technical difficulties in measuring overall inflation, relating to the weight given to different goods and services in the calculation (which also change from period to period). The CPI is a "Laspeyres" index, which tends to overstate the true level of inflation. For a good discussion, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_index.

The most meaningful inflation measure for ordinary people in the US is the Implicit Price Deflator for Personal Consumption Expenditures, reported by the Bureau of Economic Analysis (www.bea.gov). This measure is currently used by the Fed. (See http://www.federalreserve.gov/ boarddocs/hh/2000/February/ReportSection1.htm, especially Note 1.)

Will
'As we all know, "prayer" is not going to help our failing economy in the least. I challenge any of you to pray right now for our economy. We all know it's a bogus, superfluous action. And acceptance of gays & safe, legal abortiona have zero to do with economic health."

First I am sorry you have no faith. In the words of the late Cardinal Fulton J. Sheen, "Atheists have no invisible means of support." It must be difficult for you. "We all know" no such thing.

To say that, "safe, legal abortiona have zero to do with economic health" is to express simple thoughtlessness on your part. Do you think the 40 to 50 million killed would not have been consumers and producers, ie., that they would have had no impact on the economy? Do you think the big money/big business of abortion providers have no impact on the economy and for the matter, the economics of health care? Further, do you think there is an impact on the illegal immigration problem? Think about it a minute. Isn't one of the amnesty-advocate's claims that we need these illegal workers?

Life and death do not exist in a vacuum. It is a mistake to try to put things in their own little boxes and pretend they have no effect on other things and no effect on your life. I have long thought the attempt to separate "fiscal" and "cultural" issues reckless and prone to obscure important properties. "I'm a fiscal conservative but a cultural liberal" and such is nonsense; they are related and interact.

For reference, read Dr. Sowell's Advanced Economics and learn about 2nd order effects.

Gold, inflation and deflation.
While inflation is not great, the US economy seems to work well with a low and relatively stable rate of inflation.

Deflation is the opposite of inflation -- i.e. a decrease in the general price level. In a growing economy, it will occur when the real economy (i.e. production of goods and services) grows faster then that money supply.

Deflation is very destructive. It virtually eliminates credit, as during a deflationary period real interest rates may be negative -- meaning that simply holding cash (or gold) is more profitable than lending money.

Returning to a gold standard is no solution. Historically, a large increase in the supply of gold -- such as a major new discovery -- has led to inflation under a gold standard (e.g.the very high prices during gold rushes in California and Alaska.). Currently, however, it seems unlikely that the gold supply will grow as fast as either the US economy or the global economy. There is only so much gold that can be mined economically at the present time.

Thus, return to a gold standard would result in deflation, which in turn would result in massive economic dislocation.


Good article and posts!
This isn’t a Dim/Rep issue; it’s about corruption that continually wheedles away at finding weakness in what stabilizes the monetary system thereby fleecing good people via greed and ignorance. Combine this with decades of windfalls, success, a government eventually out of control in its stampede towards big money and an ignorant public with a short memory that doesn’t care as long as it perceives life is good and you get the perfect corruption storm.

It’s why no amount of regulation will ever stop the cycle; only alter slightly the frequency of occurrence.
Playing the little Dutch boy will only result in the dike bursting but then again that’s a good thing now and then to mature and reeducate people as too why it’s so important living within your means and to not hold so much contempt for neighbors.

I’d love to see a bimetal monetary system again but that’ll never happen unless the government is rendered into a smoking hole in the ground, which might just happen the way we’re going.

Sir Michael
Do you know the story about the Term "Muckraker"?Reading that story will lend insight into Mr.Roosevelt and his PROGRESSIVISM.This movement was an attempt by many factions to bring government back to the people.Party politics and the powerful, had taken government and the needs of the people had been abandoned.What started as "Populism" with the farmers would expand and become "Progressivism.It would progress from women to blacks,to labor.Roosevelt did help bring about a better working environment; with fewer hours,compensation for injury,and some increases of wages.Changing the way U.S. Senators were elected,changing local government,women suffrage were all key issues.Wisconsin Governor LaFollette was the true example of Progressivism.

Talent Scout you're quite right
But the progressives of that era probably inflicted more damage on this country than any foreign enemy ever has. Those progressives codified and amended our constitution to make senators directly elected rather than appointed by the states. The idea was that senators were the state government's representatives in the federal government...toss that out the window and in comes the unfunded mandate. Next they give us the income tax that too was by amendment. And yes they created the federal reserve system which is in violation of the constitution but that bunch of democrats could care less about the constitution as we saw by what they amended into the document. There was even speculation that the income tax amendment wasn't even ratified just proclaimed ratified which would be typical of Democrats. After all look at the Obama camp he seems to have a problem with voters well voting.

killer
writes, "Do you understand the statement"He is injecting liquidity, without increasing the money supply"?Please explain"

I understand it, do you? Here is a good link.

http://www.econweekly.com/2008/03/how-fed-took-money-out-of -monetary.html

Anyone not familiar with Fed actions may still have questions but, that is a very good summary linked to by JDH from econbrowser.


Can any man

Show me an Act of Congress and Due Process of Law that has changed this Constitutional Money?

It would help me accept the bankers now have the right over us all if one could show me when and where Congress ever Amended or Abolished this Law of the Land.




Coinage Act (1792)

From: United States Statutes at Large, 2nd Cong., Sess. I., p. 246-251
April 2, 1792

AN ACT

Establishing a Mint, and regulating the Coins of the United States.

Section 1. Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, and it is hereby enacted and declared, That a mint for the purpose of a national coinage be, and the same is established; to be situate and carried on at the seat of the government of the United States, for the time being: And that for the well conducting of the business of the said mint, there shall be the following officers and persons, namely,--a Director, an Assayer, a Chief Coiner, an Engraver, a Treasurer.

Legal tender
Talent scout:

The fact that Congress chose to adopt metallic coins in the early Republic does not mean that Congress lacked power to adopt paper money.

The First Bank of the United States issued bank notes -- paper money -- in 1791.

Constitutionally, this was a close call historically. The Supreme Court first came down on your side in 1870, then reversed itself a few years later. For a brief discussion, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_tender_cases.

Further, even if paper money was prohibited, Congress was not restricted to coining money out of gold and/or silver, though the states were. By negative implication, the most reasonable interpretation is that Congress could coin money out of iron, tin, lead, or another metal of little intrinsic value -- and then regulate its power by fiat.

So we'd have intrinsically worthless coins instead of intrinsically worthless paper. This isn't a big difference to me.

talent scout
You can find the U.S. Supreme Court case of Juillard v. Greenman, 110 U.S. 421 (1884) at the address below. It explains the Constitutional basis for paper money.

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&v ol=110&invol=421

Inflation Calculator is all we need
GG-AZ writes: 2:02 PM
Gold, inflation and deflation.
While inflation is not great, the US economy seems to work well with a low and relatively stable rate of inflation.
---------
Sorry, but this tells all men all they need to know about the difference in a Gold Standard and fiat paper.

Purchasing Power increases under a Gold Standard, regardless what the gold supply is.

http://www.westegg.com/inflation/infl.cgi
What cost $1.00 in 1800 would cost $0.58 in 1913

Now look at what has happened to the inflating fiat paper to purchasing power, we have lost like really really big time.

What cost $1.00 in 1913 would cost $21.23 in 2007.

Try it yourself

killer
A number of the things you cite I don't consider "a good thing." An easy example is the direct election of Senators, which was done Constitutionally.

Some other things you mention I question the Constitutionality of, regardless of whether they were "good" or "bad." That TR didn't seem to be concerned about the Constitutionality questions, and seems to have been the 1st President that really had that disregard, I consider very much a bad thing. Unfortunately his successors generally seem to have the same disregard.

He was very good on some things like National Defense and such. He did win the Noble Peace Prize for his part in negotiating the end of the Sino-Soviet war. (That Peace Prize seems to have been an appropriate award, unlike modern political "statements" that awarded Yasser Araphat and Al Gore.)

That is what I meant when I said I think TR was vey much a mixed bag.

TR was very much better than the current bunch of "Progressives." But that is not saying much.

Thanks for showing this
GG-AZ writes: Tuesday, April, 01, 2008 2:22 PM
talent scout
You can find the U.S. Supreme Court case of Juillard v. Greenman, 110 U.S. 421 (1884) at the address below. It explains the Constitutional basis for paper money.

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&v ol=110&invol=421
---------

Now show me in the Constitution where the Supreme Court is given the power to Amend the US Constitution, and ya got me along for the ride into this red herring case.

killer and talent scout
The term liquidity merely refers to how easily an asset is sold. Cash is as liquid as it gets, real estate is relatively illiquid as it requires time and expense to sell. Say a person has millions tied up in relatively illiquid investments. This same person has a short term need for cash and finds it economically advantageous to borrow money even if the cost is somewhat higher than the return earned on the assets if the time or expense or selling the assets would make the cost higher than the cost of borrowing. A simpler analogy is: would you sell a family owned company generating annual income sufficient to allow 50 people to raise families in order to pay off a debt amounting to 10% of the value of the company? No, you borrow the money and pay it back out of the income stream of the company if you want to keep it a going enterprise.

talent scout
writes, "Bubble is inflation.
Interest is Usury.
Discount Window is Loans.
Securities Asset is a Government Promise to pay.
A Bond is a Check
Debt is an IOU
Commercial Bank Deposits are Liabilities owed back to the Fed
Reserves assets are the 10 percent of actual cash on hand that enables 90 percent of loans."

A bubble is a psychological term. It refers to the belief by some that the assets are overvalued.

Interest is the time value of money. Would you loan money at 0 interest? Is $100 one year from now worth the same as $100 today? Inflation is closely linked with interest rates. This is certainly not the forum to discuss this. It is more like many credit hours of college coursework.

The discount is loans. Good there.

US Treasury securities are the government's promise to pay just like corporate bonds are the corporations promise to pay just like that car loan is your promise to pay. They are all assets to the lender and liabilities to the borrower.

Commercial bank deposits are liabilities of banks owed to the depositers. Whose money is it? Reserves are the portion required by banks to keep on deposit at the Federal Reserve. The balance is what they loan out or invest in other assets.

Hope this helps. I kinda doubt it.

Wrong again
GG-AZ writes: 2:15 PM
Legal tender
Talent scout:

The fact that Congress chose to adopt metallic coins in the early Republic does not mean that Congress lacked power to adopt paper money.

The First Bank of the United States issued bank notes -- paper money -- in 1791.
---------
Never has been unbacked fiat paper money until 1971, and who needs it pointed out the economic disaster of this country has fallen into today from that crime?
All those paper issues were GOLD BACKED CERTIFICATES.

Crime? YES
He has no authority to by-pass the US Congress to amend the USC.


How could it help?
Hitchhiker writes: 2:46 PM
talent scout
writes, "Bubble is inflation.
Interest is Usury.
Discount Window is Loans.
Securities Asset is a Government Promise to pay.
A Bond is a Check
Debt is an IOU
Commercial Bank Deposits are Liabilities owed back to the Fed
Reserves assets are the 10 percent of actual cash on hand that enables 90 percent of loans."

A bubble is a psychological term. It refers to the belief by some that the assets are overvalued.
blah blah blah

Hope this helps. I kinda doubt it.
----------

When you have said nothing to help?

Word games, beating around the bush
Hitchhiker writes:

A bubble is a psychological term. It refers to the belief by some that the assets are overvalued
----
Call it anything and for whatever reason best suits you, word games or psychology.
Its Inflation

Ever try to speak plain English?
Your communications skills will rise.

Well
I did define the terms you so casually throw around. If you didn't find it helpful, there is not much I can do about it. If all you hear is Charlie Brown's parents, blah blah blah, then I suppose I will stop talking.

GG-AZ
Surely you understand the difference in a gold Backed Certificate and a piece of paper that has nothing of value behind it.

I am positive you do, so why bring up what happened in 1884 when there is no argument about Gold Certificates to begin with?

I am speaking expressing about the unbacked funny money of the Federal Reserve System, not Gold Currency.

You define?
Hitchhiker writes: 3:08 PM
Well
I did define the terms you so casually throw around. If you didn't find it helpful, there is not much I can do about it. If all you hear is Charlie Brown's parents, blah blah blah, then I suppose I will stop talking.
----------
LOL!

You define nothing son.
You play games is all

Let give this some time
GG-AZ writes: 2:15 PM
Legal tender
Talent scout:

The fact that Congress chose to adopt metallic coins in the early Republic does not mean that Congress lacked power to adopt paper money.
------
ts:
It means they outlawed fiat paper though

----------
GG-AZ writes:
The First Bank of the United States issued bank notes -- paper money -- in 1791.
----
ts:
All Gold and Silver Certificates.
They did not believe counterfeiting paper fiat "money" as the FED does.

------------
GG-AZ writes:
Constitutionally, this was a close call historically. The Supreme Court first came down on your side in 1870, then reversed itself a few years later. For a brief discussion, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_tender_cases.
--------
ts:
Different subject.
They were deciding issues over Gold Back Paper Currency.
Not Federal Reserve worthless fiat paper.
Should be clear on this by now.
---------
GG-AZ writes:
Further, even if paper money was prohibited, Congress was not restricted to coining money out of gold and/or silver, though the states were. By negative implication, the most reasonable interpretation is that Congress could coin money out of iron, tin, lead, or another metal of little intrinsic value -- and then regulate its power by fiat.
---------
ts:
You not understand the difference in Gold and fiat paper yet?
You not understand the difference in Gold Certificates and unbacked fiat paper?
This is the problem in our communications.

------
GG-AZ writes:

So we'd have intrinsically worthless coins instead of intrinsically worthless paper. This isn't a big difference to me.
---------

If granny had a beard, she might be granpa.
We can play if all day long, but the US Constitution is absolute in its language.
Only Gold or Silver for payment of debt.
Not even copper or nickle cause State debts was more than 3 cents

talent scout
Just call me when you need help programming your vcr grandpa.

What are the statistics?
Before we start to aggressively pursue a bailout by the Government for these "homeowners" from their mortgages before they default, I think we should take a close look at the statistics. For example:

1. Just what is the nationwide percentage of mortgages currently in foreclosure? I'll bet less than 3% nationwide. There are areas in real trouble, like Michigan and Florida, but what is the nationwide situation?

2. What is the avergae age of these mortgages in foreclosure or even in 90 day plus default? I'll bet most are mortgages written later than 2006. In addition, I think it would be surprising to know how many never had a single payment made!

3. How many of the homes currently in foreclosure were un occupied, indicating speculator purchases? I understand that in some areas of Nevada, unoccupied homes in foreclosure top 30% of total foreclosures.

4. And, just why should a person walk away from a mortgage they are currently paying just because the price of the home drops below the original purchase price? My God, I hope these people are not in the market, that means the second any of their investments fall in value they would immediately sell - that would be a fainancial disaster. Prices of most homes will recover over time and you still have a roof over your head.

5. And, the last question; what is the estimated total value of current mortgages now in foreclosure and those mortgages in payment default in excess of 90 days? I beleive you will find that the investment bank write-offs taken to date far exceed the current value of all "troubled" and high risk mortgages. Anybody say, "padded reserves on balance sheets lead to future higher profits and significant tax savings".

We had really better understand the situation before we start asking the taxpayers to bailout a lot of greedy rich people, as well as a lot of simply stupid people who should not have been homeowners in the first place.

talent scout
Fractional reserve lending, the sort the Fed and every other bank does, was also done by the goldsmiths in the 1600s. All banks assume that all the depositors won't show up at once. Whether the currency is backed by gold or fiat, there's little chance everybody could get their gold at once.

You should be glad the currency is fiat,especially given the last 8 years, because China can't foreclose.

I have no vcr

Hitch hiker, I prefer reading, be good for you too.

Webster, from his first entrance into public life in 1812, gave great consideration to the subject of the currency, and in an elaborate speech on that subject, made in the senate in 1836, then sitting in this room, he said:

[110 U.S. 421, 455]

'Currency, in a large and perhaps just sense, includes not only gold and silver and bank bills, but bills of exchange also.

It may include all that adjusts exchanges and settles balances in the operations of trade and business; but if we understand by currency the legal money of the country, and that which constitutes a legal tender for debts, and is the standard measure of value, then undoubtedly nothing is included but gold and silver.

Most unquestionably there is no legal tender, and there can be no legal tender in this country, under the authority of this government or any other, but gold and silver, either the coinage of our own mints or foreign coins at rates regulated by congress.

This is a constitutional principle, perfectly plain and of the highest importance.

The states are expressly prohibited from making anything but gold and silver a legal tender in payment of debts; and although no such express prohibition is applied to congress, yet, as congress has no power granted to it in this respect but to coin money and to regulate the value of foreign coins, it clearly has no power to substitute paper or anything else for coin as a tender in payment of debts and in discharge of contracts.

... To overthrow it would shake the whole system.' 4 Webster's Works, 271.

U.S. Supreme Court
LEGAL TENDER CASES, 110 U.S. 421 (1884)

110 U.S. 421

'THE LEGAL-TENDER CASES.'

JUILLIARD
v.
GREENMAN.

March 3, 1884

Webster said:
"To overthrow it would shake the whole system"


Exactly what is has done today in departing from legal money and using FRN's.

talent scout - legal tender
The US Supreme Court has authority to interpret the Constitution, not amend it. In the Juilliard case that I cited, the question was "the power of [C]ongress to make the notes of the United States a legal tender in payment of private debts." That is paper money, by definition.

The Court cited the powers of Congress to lay and collect taxes, borrow money, regulate interstate and foreign commerce, and coin money, plus the Necessary and Proper Clause (as interpreted by C.J. Marshall in Marbury), and concluded that paper money was permissible.

You continue to be stuck on this idea of currency being backed by gold. I point out again that even under your interpretation, there is nothing in the Constitution stating that money "coined" by Congress has to be gold or silver.

Sure they can
koolhand writes: 5:16 PM
talent scout


You should be glad the currency is fiat,especially given the last 8 years, because China can't foreclose.
------

I read about this stuff all the time.
Its even called China's Nuclear Option.

Its horrible for the USA to be at the mercy of Communist Red China, don't you think?

quote:
So what have the Chinese reported to us recently that has American politicians, including Fed Chairman Ben S. Bernake, quacking in their shoes?

“China threatens 'nuclear option' of dollar sales”

“The Chinese government has begun a concerted campaign of economic threats against the United States, hinting that it may liquidate its vast holding of US treasuries if Washington imposes trade sanctions to force a Yuan revaluation.”

“…such action could trigger a dollar crash at a time when the US currency is already breaking down through historic support levels.”

“…Beijing had the power to set off a dollar collapse if it chooses to do so.”

"The words are alarming and unambiguous. This carries a clear political threat and could have very serious consequences at a time when the credit markets are already afraid of contagion from the subprime troubles…”

http://www.financialsense.com/fsu/editorials/vaughn/2007/08 20.html


talent scout - deflation
Your post demonstrated my point that the use of a gold standard would be expected to cause price deflation.

You seem to think that this is a good thing. It is not, for the reasons I explained. I'll try again.

There is a floor of zero (0%) on the nominal interest rate. No one will loan money at less than 0% interest, since it is less favorable than simply holding the cash.

In a deflationary period, if the rate of deflation is greater than the real interest rate, the nominal interest rate will have to be negative. The result is a wholesale breakdown in the system of credit and banking.


Harry was right
Government doesn't work.

GG
Are you claiming the United States ever had fiat paper money between 1791 and 1971?

We did have Gold or Silver Certificates as legal tender.
We never had unbacked fiat paper only.
Never.

GG-AZ writes: 5:35 PM
talent scout -

You continue to be stuck on this idea of currency being backed by gold. I point out again that even under your interpretation, there is nothing in the Constitution stating that money "coined" by Congress has to be gold or silver.
---------

ts:
I find stuck on this idea an odd choice of words.
Is it also proper to say I am stuck on any other part of the US Constitution if I also rely on it?

There is ONLY the COINAGE ACT THAT EXPLICITLY DEMANDS GOLD OR SILVER IS ALL!

Have you never read it?

It really is the LAW.

Never Changed
Never Amended
Never Abolished


Acts
Coinage Act, 1792 (The Mint Act)
By Congress

Sec. 19. And be it further enacted, That if any of the gold or silver coins which shall be struck or coined at the said mint shall be debased or made worse as to the proportion of fine gold or fine silver therein contained, or shall be of less weight or value than the same ought to be pursuant to the directions of this act, through the default or with the connivance of any of the officers or persons who shall be employed at the said mint, for the purpose of profit or gain, or otherwise with a fraudulent intent, and if any of the said officers or persons shall embezzle any of the metals which shall at any time be committed to their charge for the purpose of being coined, or any of the coins which shall be struck or coined at the said mint, every such officer or person who shall commit any or either of the said offences, shall be deemed guilty of felony, and shall suffer death.

A death sentence to not use explicit measure.

Stuck?
Damn right I am

Double speak
GG-AZ writes: Tuesday, April, 01, 2008 5:40 PM
talent scout - deflation
Your post demonstrated my point that the use of a gold standard would be expected to cause price deflation.

You seem to think that this is a good thing. It is not, for the reasons I explained. I'll try again.

.......

------------

No, I do not call the INCREASE IN Purchasing power as under the Gold Standard from 1800 to 1913 a "deflation".
That is the language of scams.

Fact is, the US Dollar bought TWICE the amount of GOODS in 1913 that it did in 1800.

Increase in purchasing power may be called "deflation" in your world, just not in mine.

A US Dollar is Defined
Under the Coinage Act of 1792.
It is a death sentence to change the specific amount of gold or silver in each coin.
From Eagles to Dollars.

Take note of all Federal Reserve Note's, they falsely print US Dollar on everyone of them, and is Fraud.

A US Dollar

Section 9 Coinage Act 1792

Dollars or Units--each to be of the value of a Spanish milled dollar as the same is now current, and to contain three hundred and seventy-one grains and four sixteenth parts of a grain of pure, or four hundred and sixteen grains of standard silver.

US Dollars are Silver.
Note printed unbacked fiat funny money as the Federal Reserve prints off 24/7, illegally but gets by with it in this age of hooligans in government.

talent scout
It's probably pointless to try to communicate with you.

You started this off with the incorrect assertion that paper money was prohibited by the US Constitution.

Now you've descended into reliance on the 1792 Mint Act, and asking me the irrelevant question of whether the US had "fiat paper money" between 1791 and 1971 (to which I honestly don't know the answer, nor care).

Obviously, the 1792 Mint Act would be implicitly repealed by subsequent, inconsistent statutes, such as those authorizing paper money and the creation of coins made out of copper, zinc, steel, etc. This is an elementary maxim of statutory interpretation. Now I admit that I'm assuming that the US Mint has statutory authority to create the present coinage -- I have better things to do with my time than to review the past 200-plus years of coinage statutes.

Regarding the "fiat paper money" question, maybe you have in mind a strange definition of "fiat paper money." The Juilliard case that I cited (and the other "Legal Tender" cases discussed therein) addressed the central issue, that being "the power of [C]ongress to make the notes of the United States a legal tender in payment of private debts."

My very brief research confirms that US dollars were convertible to gold until 1971, which seems to be your point. Or maybe your point is that the dollar is still worth 371 4/16 grains of pure silver.

Now if you're right, then every dollar bill is worth 371.25 grains of silver, which converts to about $12.75 at the current silver price of about $16.00/ounce.

You should be able to make a mint (pun intended) by cashing your life savings into paper dollars, presenting them to the government for conversion into silver, and then suing when the government refuses.

Good luck!

Well
GG-AZ writes: 7:09 PM
talent scout
It's probably pointless to try to communicate with you.
--------
ts:
It is pointless to try and justify fiat paper money to me, yes.
You nor any man can do that as I know what it is all about, fraud.

-------------
GG-AZ writes:
You started this off with the incorrect assertion that paper money was prohibited by the US Constitution.
---------
ts:
An out right lie.
I distinctly said FIAT PAPER "money".

----------
GG-AZ writes:
Now you've descended into reliance on the 1792 Mint Act, and asking me the irrelevant question of whether the US had "fiat paper money" between 1791 and 1971 (to which I honestly don't know the answer, nor care).
--------
ts:
Its the real problem here too, and your lack in understanding this present system of fraud.
The Constitution is dated 1791, it is relevant though, as is the Mint Act.

Unless you understand WHY fiat paper was OUTLAWED, then you will continue to not grasp how important the Mint Act was and is.

cont.



Hitchiker
When you say he provides liquidity without increasing the money supply,I know you are an American.By providing liquidity the "FED" is allowing held assets to escape current valuation.If, the assets being held, were allowed to find, their true value,the value would be much lower at this time.Eventually the value will be determined,the asset sold and money exchanged.In other words the credit being provided will become money at some point.I thought, I explained, that America has a "DEBT" based economy!No wonder they are "ROBBING" you all blind.

GG writes:
Obviously, the 1792 Mint Act would be implicitly repealed by subsequent, inconsistent statutes, such as those authorizing paper money and the creation of coins made out of copper, zinc, steel, etc. This is an elementary maxim of statutory interpretation. Now I admit that I'm assuming that the US Mint has statutory authority to create the present coinage -- I have better things to do with my time than to review the past 200-plus years of coinage statutes.
--------

ts:
You may or may not care, or be interested in this subject, but I and other Americans are, as New Hampshire.
And understand how important it is to having good faith in the money to pay debt, or increase wealth.




HB 1342-FN-A-LOCAL - AS INTRODUCED

2003 SESSION
STATE OF NEW HAMPSHIRE

In the Year of Our Lord Two Thousand Three

AN ACT establishing a new system of coinage for the state.

Be it Enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives in General Court convened:

1 Purpose. The United States Congress has relinquished its responsibilities that were delegated to it by New Hampshire and the other sovereign states. These delegated responsibilities are recorded in Article 1, Section 8, Clause 5 of the United States Constitution. The responsibilities the Federal government has relinquished are those of minting money and setting the value thereof. Currently the United States Congress has relinquished its minting responsibility by having delegated this responsibility to a foreign controlled power. Therefore, in this legislation New Hampshire is taking back its sovereign right to mint and set the value of our money to ensure that our money is lawful and is compliant with our constitutions. Other states are considering this same course of action.
http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/legislation/2003/HB1342.htm l





GG writes:
Regarding the "fiat paper money" question, maybe you have in mind a strange definition of "fiat paper money." The Juilliard case that I cited (and the other "Legal Tender" cases discussed therein) addressed the central issue, that being "the power of [C]ongress to make the notes of the United States a legal tender in payment of private debts."
------
ts:
No
Read it again, right from the beginning




THE LEGAL-TENDER CASES.'

JUILLIARD
v.
GREENMAN.

March 3, 1884

Juilliard, a citizen of New York, brought an action against Greenman, a citizen of Connecticut, in the circuit court of the United States for the Southern district of New York, alleging that the plaintiff sold and delivered to the defendant, at his special instance and request, 100 bales of cotton, of the value and for the agreed price of $5,122.90; .....

$22.50 in gold coin of the United States, 40 cents in silver coin of the United States, and two United States notes, one of the denomination of $5,000 and the other of the denomination of $100, of the description known as United States legal tender notes, purporting by recital thereon to be [110 U.S. 421, 422] legal tender, at their respective face values, for all debts, public and private, except duties on imports and interest on the public debt, and which, after having been presented for payment, and redeemed and paid in gold coin, since January 1, 1879, at the United States subtreasury in New York,

Note this last part, they were to be paid in gold

This is not about fiat unbacked paper.


"and redeemed and paid in gold coin, since January 1, 1879, at the United States subtreasury in New York"






Talent...heavy bloggings..I have a ?
This is your ol gimpy pal..elvis!
I really love all this heavy stuff between you and the other bloggers..all of you are head and shoulders above me !!
Maybe the Gvmnt. went to paper money because there was/is more trees to cut down and turn into money than there is GOLD IN THEM THAR MINES?
SMILE!
YOU guys keep talking FIAT geez when I was a kid...some guy drove a weird car down the street
and one of my buddies said "that is a FIAT..sure is ugly!"
Question: Didn't the economy go south under A. Jackson as President? That doesn't sound like a good thing?! Weigh in on that..would you?I have forgotten the reason!
Ohhhh, beastie boy thinks your liberal.....
HA,HA,HA, NEXT THING HE MAY SAY IS YOUR HEADING MITT'S CAMPAIGN FOR 2012...HA HA HA!Iam ...
roaring with laughter!
elvis

Talent Scout...record breaking day?
Hey, pal...I think you broke a record of blogs!
About 35 per second! ha ha ha I enjoyed the ride!
elvis

GG writes:
My very brief research confirms that US dollars were convertible to gold until 1971, which seems to be your point. Or maybe your point is that the dollar is still worth 371 4/16 grains of pure silver.
------

Right about 1971
Right about a US Dollar being Silver.

Federal Reserve Notes are not US Dollars, they are Federal Reserve Notes that represent the DEBT behind them.
They hold no value as Silver holds in an intrinsic value.

The Intrinsic value of the FRN's is zero.
The Law demand a US Dollar contain 371 4/16ths of pure Silver.
Therefore a FRN cannot possibly be a US Dollar.
And due to how it LOSES value by printing it, it cannot be set by Congress as the Constitution demands.

Nor can it be considered a US Dollar when it has NO Silver.

Its nothing but printed paper that represnts the debt its based in, and is not money but an INTEREST Bearing IOU to the Federal Reserve Banking System.

Please read one
It says on the front:

"This note is legal tender for all debts,public and private"

Now look here at a 1906 US Dollar Gold Certificate

http://tallahassee.kijiji.com/c-ViewAdLargeImage?AdId=30762 598&img=http://kijiji.ebayimg.com/i24/06/k/000/78/79/93e9_1 8.JPG?set_id=1C4000

Nothing about debt, cause it was REAL Money.












GG writes:
Now if you're right, then every dollar bill is worth 371.25 grains of silver, which converts to about $12.75 at the current silver price of about $16.00/ounce.
-------
ts:
Yes, that would be the case if we still had silver certificates.
But the FRN's are not silver backed certificates.
They are just printed paper with no backing, called money only by fiat, a decree, not a value as the US Dollar has and needs no decree.

Silver is REAL money.
-----------
GG writes:
You should be able to make a mint (pun intended) by cashing your life savings into paper dollars, presenting them to the government for conversion into silver, and then suing when the government refuses.
------
ts:
Smile now, I wish it were the case.
I might have a 100 bucks or so.

----
GG writes:
Good luck!

------
Yes sir, and thank you, and I wish the same for you


Snowing and cold outside today elvis
elvis writes: 8:28 PM
Talent Scout...record breaking day?
Hey, pal...I think you broke a record of blogs!
About 35 per second! ha ha ha I enjoyed the ride!
elvis
---------

35?
Let me go for a record, this subject is my hot spot, lol.

Been studying this stuff for 10 years now, due to how ignorant I felt and could not understand how prices keep going up.

I wanted to learn the system, but was much happier not learning, ignorance indeed was bliss.
Even if its makes you curious how things work.

Now I am like Wilson, an unhappy man in seeing who owns this country.

elvis, I would not mind helping Mitt, that is if he would let me teach him something about government and religion, ha ha........

Talent scout
I did a little research and determined -- in about 10-15 minutes -- that all US currency is backed by physical, metal coinage.

31 U.S.C. 5112(a)-(b) specifies the dimensions and composition of the following coins: half dollar, quarter, dime, nickel, penny. For example, a "nickel" (called a "5 cent coin") weighs 5 grams and is composed of an alloy of 75% copper and 25% nickel.

This definition is literally within the Constitutional grant of power to Congress to "coin Money" and "regulate the value thereof."

31 U.S.C. 5103 states: "United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues."

This makes Federal reserve notes legal tender, and also includes Federal reserve notes in the definition of "United States currency."

31 U.S.C. 5118(b) provides that: "A person lawfully holding United States coins and currency may present the coins and currency to the Secretary of the Treasury for exchange (dollar for dollar) for other United States coins and currency (other than gold and silver coins) that may be lawfully held."

Since Federal reserve notes are "currency," this means that you may present such notes to the Secretary of the Treasury and be paid in coin including half dollars, quarters, dimes, nickels and pennies.

Thus, by law, every Federal reserve note is "backed" by real, physical coins the size, composition, and value of which is set by Congress, as expressly permitted by the Constitution.

Sam
I really hope that you're kidding.

The U.S.C. is the United States Code, consisting of statutes (i.e. laws) duly passed by Congress. Pursuant to the Constitution itself, the laws passed by Congress are the supreme law of the land, as long as they don't violate the Constitution.

There is nothing in the statutes that I cited that would violate the Constitution. Currency is permissible under the Congressional power to incur debt. Coining money is permissible under the Constitutional power to, well, coin money.

The 1792 Coinage act was just another law passed by Congress, of no greater or lesser validity than the statutes that I cited above. It is not part of the Constitution. And, of course, since the statutes in 31 U.S.C. that I cited were passed after the 1792 Coinage act, they supersede that act (to the extent that they are inconsistent).

I don't know what part, if any, Thomas Jefferson played in the passage of the 1792 Coinage act. He was Secretary of State at the time, and it seems that this issue would more naturally fall to the Secretary of the Treasury (Alexander Hamilton). Jefferson certainly did not pass the act -- that was done by Congress -- and presumably it was not vetoed by President Washington.

But even if Jefferson himself drafted the Coinage act, it would carry no special significance. It would be just another act of Congress, which can be repealed by the act of any subsequent Congress (absent Presidential veto, of course).

Re the penny, it's not made of steel (though it was briefly in WWII). It was 95% copper, 5% zinc until 1982, and is now 97.5% zinc with 2.5% copper plating. This is permissible under 31 U.S.C. 5112(c), which allows the Secretary of the Treasury to set the copper and zinc composition of the penny.


GG, you just do not get it

Do you
-------
GG writes:

Since Federal reserve notes are "currency," this means that you may present such notes to the Secretary of the Treasury and be paid in coin including half dollars, quarters, dimes, nickels and pennies.
-----------
ts:
I see you still fail to understand who is issuing the "currency".
I see you still fail to understand who is setting its value, today.

All say Federal Reserve Note on every bill printed.

Can you point me to where in the Constitution the Bank was given the power to both issue and set value of their "currency"?

What is keeping you from seeing that Congress does neither today, as the US Constitution states in NO UNCERTAIN TERMS.
Article 1 Section 10, Clause 1

Never mentions taking the power from Congress and giving it to bankers.
Never mentions that bankers were to become a part of the US Federal Government.
No more than Walmart is mentioned.
Article 1 Section 8 Clause 5

It is clear, NO State could not pay off debts with anything BUT Gold and Silver.
So you are saying the USC is now become obsolete.

Or, you know when Congress changed this by an Amendment and Due Process.
And if not, then its still in force BUT IGNORED.

The National Debt is setting the Value of the FRN's, and not Congress or the Bank.
The printing press was never given the power over our economy, as it is today.
Unless you know something I don't, in which case show me.

I want Andrew Jackson back, he can explain it to you better.










Assigning Value
It’s been a while since killer announced his/her economic illiteracy back at 11:26 AM, It was a little while before that I stopped trading baseball cards, right before everyone else got out of that market. Whoever said those things had any value anyway? Oh yea, it was a bunch of aging boomers trying to hold onto their youth in the nineteen-nineties.

Value assignment is negotiated between traders.

Whoa yee howdy boy, the glass is half full, isn’t it killer ol-buddy. “America has a "DEBT" based economy. This means, that your money supply is increased through debt… [with] no method of assigning value”

I guess when you only half right, it could go either way, anytime. Too bad! Your ignorance leaves the rest of us to play the other side of the equation, charting assets for fun and profit.

Equation: the act or process of equating (to make equal). It’s a debt vs. asset calculation, pinhead.

If you want to own gold, buy some. Otherwise, leave the assignment of value to the buying and selling parties involved during any particular transaction at the time.

In the mean time, assign you own values and leave me to mine, thank you. I have dishes to do. Besides killer, you didn’t answer the question, inflation or recession?

talent scout, you’re a stud!


Talent..ha ha ha ha
Teach Mitt about religion? HA HA HA HA!
YOU HAVE A GREAT SENSE OF HUMOR...BUT I THINK SOME PEOPLE THINK IAM CRAZY TO SAY THAT!
Talent, that was some sense of HUMILITY you have shown here --your story about why you started to study THE MONEY WORLD!
I wish I could talk to Mitt in Person...many people who have met him and talked to him ...
say he's very down to earth and humble and that is not bad for a multi-millionaire! He strikes me
aa a person you, talent, could sit down and explain what you dont like about his positions
and decisions and he would listen and think about it! You know what question hardly ever gets asked in debates..WHY do you etc.? they ask
the What ...but seldom ask why?
As for religion..me and mitt are gonna wait until you pass on then we are gonna get you baptized in our church! Because that is the only way..we can do it! We figure if we grabbed you and tried to get you into the water now, we would lose a few teeth in the process..and Mitt said..No way, I gotta keep this pretty plastic smile! ha ha ha ha
your friend forever,
elvis

You have the answer right here
And still fail to see it.
---------


GG-AZ writes: 11:57 PM
Sam
I really hope that you're kidding.

The U.S.C. is the United States Code, consisting of statutes (i.e. laws) duly passed by Congress. Pursuant to the Constitution itself, the laws passed by Congress are the supreme law of the land, as long as they don't violate the Constitution.
-------

Its is not a pick and choose document.
We cannot give more credence to the 1st Amendment and deny all the rest of them and say we are a Constitutional Nation.

Well neither can we take one part of Article 1 but ignore the others.
Or take 9/10th and reject 1/10th and say we still go by it.

We cannot ignore the Amendment Process it requires for any change in the US Constitution, or we lie to ourselves and say we go by the Constitution.
We have had no such Amendment that changes anything in Article 1
Won't work trying to have it both ways.


from what I understand,
the Federal Reserve consists of PRIVATELY owned banks. These banks are allowed to print money for basically nothing and loan it back out at interest. Much of our debt is owed to these private banks. Indeed, much wealth and power are in the hands of a few. "The New World Order" by Pat Robertson goes into great detail concerning the Federal Reserve. It is very conspiracy oriented but makes for compelling reading. How else can anyone explain the destructive policies to this country on both sides of the aisle? It has to be deliberate.

The best thing about the Gold Standard
The thieves in the banking world cannot manipulate the economy of America.

Nor can Congress spend in deficits year after year and add to the National Debt to the tune of trillions of Dollars.

This is only possible with this flaky rip off scam of today.

Nor can bankers manipulate the politicians due to their power over the money supply.
Some thieves exist regardless, but the Gold Standard thins em down greatly.

Greg thanks, I blush easy though........lol

elvis
On a personal level, I know Mitt is a decent man, and is not my problem with him or John McCain.

I disagree with their politics, acts and deeds while in the Government.

As far as the Mormons baptizing me after I am dead, have at it, I plan on being above water and earth anyway.
heh heh, well it is my hope anyway.

Had a great friend in high school, a Mormon, I learned from him that Mormons have a very basic decency.
But as to religion?
Dear God, deliver me from Mormon Doctrine, lol.


durn it...talent
You would have to say DEAR GOD deliver me FROM MORMON DOCTRINE..your supposed to say TO mormon doctrine! hahahaha
I get tired easy...zzzzzzzzz time. good night talent and all you financial wizards!

elvis

Savage
"You are the greatest. "Being a disinterested government official doesn't mean you know what you are doing". THE BED ROCK DIFFERENCE BETWEEN
LIBERAL AND CONSERVATIVE THINKING."

Hmm. Let me see, what administration took this
momentous step.

Perhaps a more accurate statement would have been
"The bed rock difference between liberal and
conservative thinking is that the liberals will
bail out the little guy, the conservatives, the
big guys.

viruddh
Correction: the conservatives would've never let or helped the boat become flooded in the first place and would at least teach you how to swim.

*Republicans* on the other hand, fit your description, yes.

Most Republicans are hardly conservatives.

GG-AZ
The ONLY thing our money is backed by is the future productivity of your children and, of course, our trade defecit.

And the rest of the world doesn't seem to see us as very credit worthy anymore, either. Why is that?

The *metal* in your coins is worth nothing unless you need to make bolts to hold up your house.

If the government has nothing of *real* (versus FIAT) value, how are they going to honor your promissary notes?) They don't is the correct answer. They just devalue it when they can't afford to pay you. They decide that your $10 that you saved is now worth $6. Where can I get in on this action?!

Unless you can eat money, it will soon have no value whatsoever. Hmm, well, the paper does burn.

talent scout
OK, I give up on trying to educate you, which I was doing in good faith.

Would you happen to be one of those tax protesters who claim that they don't have to pay income tax because the word "income" isn't defined in the 16th Amendment?

Vindex
Y'all need to relax. We haven't had serious inflation for more than 15 years.

Money is backed by the assets of the government, which includes massive land holdings. In addition, it is backed by the government's power to tax, not only future income, but property as well.

Investors at home and abroad continue to recognize the debt of the US government as the safest and most secure investment available.

It is true that the dollar is down lately, for a variety of reasons. The principal two are probably: (1) uncertainty about the ultimate effect on the financial markets of the turmoil in the subprime mortgage market, leading more foreign investors to (temporarily) stay on the sidelines, and (2) concern about the potential negative economic effects of the protectionist and populist rhetoric of the Democratic candidates for President.

They say that economists predicted ten of the last two recessions. My impression is the you and talent scout have predicted ten of the last zero meltdowns of the US economy.

Well, you are so dumb
GG-AZ writes: 12:27 PM
talent scout
OK, I give up on trying to educate you, which I was doing in good faith.
---------

ts:
After all
At least you can see the handwriting on the wall, even if you do not know what it all means.
Your teaching is nothing that is unknown, its the blue suede shoe sales pitch of a siding salesman.
Go sell it to some other chump, I am not buying.

----------



GG-AZ writes:
Would you happen to be one of those tax protesters who claim that they don't have to pay income tax because the word "income" isn't defined in the 16th Amendment?
---------
ts:
No
Would you happen to be one of those scam artists who cannot make a living unless you find some scam to pull on the elderly?

You do not even know what the 16th Amendment was about anyway.

This is the sort of idiot thinking
That has given Americans the sub prime debacle,the 9 trillion "dollar" debt, rigged up to steal from the public by scam artists, liars, cheats.

Men who never made an honest dime in their lives but live off scamming the public.
Thieves, prosper like a bullrush in a swamp today, they grow green from the sludge of slime.

Like all this pure BS below
No serious inflation? What an idiot or just as I said, a scam artist full of bs

----------

GG-AZ writes: 12:35 PM
Vindex
Y'all need to relax. We haven't had serious inflation for more than 15 years.

Money is backed by the assets of the government, which includes massive land holdings. In addition, it is backed by the government's power to tax, not only future income, but property as well.

Investors at home and abroad continue to recognize the debt of the US government as the safest and most secure investment available.

It is true that the dollar is down lately, for a variety of reasons. The principal two are probably: (1) uncertainty about the ultimate effect on the financial markets of the turmoil in the subprime mortgage market, leading more foreign investors to (temporarily) stay on the sidelines, and (2) concern about the potential negative economic effects of the protectionist and populist rhetoric of the Democratic candidates for President.

They say that economists predicted ten of the last two recessions. My impression is the you and talent scout have predicted ten of the last zero meltdowns of the US economy.

Notice, GG addressed none of this TRUTH


He is here to support all the lying cockroaches who live off the back of working Americans by their slimy underhanded financial scams.
Just like their fathers, the worst thieves in the history of America, the Federal Reserve Banking Crooks.
Merchants of lies, scams and thievery


talent scout writes: Wednesday, April, 02, 2008 12:34 AM
GG, you just do not get it

Do you
-------
GG writes:

Since Federal reserve notes are "currency," this means that you may present such notes to the Secretary of the Treasury and be paid in coin including half dollars, quarters, dimes, nickels and pennies.
-----------
ts:
I see you still fail to understand who is issuing the "currency".
I see you still fail to understand who is setting its value, today.

All say Federal Reserve Note on every bill printed.

Can you point me to where in the Constitution the Bank was given the power to both issue and set value of their "currency"?

What is keeping you from seeing that Congress does neither today, as the US Constitution states in NO UNCERTAIN TERMS.
Article 1 Section 10, Clause 1

Never mentions taking the power from Congress and giving it to bankers.
Never mentions that bankers were to become a part of the US Federal Government.
No more than Walmart is mentioned.
Article 1 Section 8 Clause 5

It is clear, NO State could not pay off debts with anything BUT Gold and Silver.
So you are saying the USC is now become obsolete.

Or, you know when Congress changed this by an Amendment and Due Process.
And if not, then its still in force BUT IGNORED.

The National Debt is setting the Value of the FRN's, and not Congress or the Bank.
The printing press was never given the power over our economy, as it is today.
Unless you know something I don't, in which case show me.

I want Andrew Jackson back, he can explain it to you better.


The work of fiat paper
World wide famine, due to INFLATION.
The real cause of all the high costs of living in America and the driving force behind the policies that make food, shelter and utilities rise and rise.
Inflation of paper fiat money.
---------
http://wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=60480
Global food prices, based on United Nations records, rose 35 percent in the last year, escalating a trend that began in 2002. Since then, prices have risen 65 percent.

Shakespeare says it all
Shakespeare in Timon of Athens:

“Gold? Yellow, glittering, precious gold?
No, Gods, I am no idle votarist! ...
Thus much of this will make black white, foul fair,
Wrong right, base noble, old young, coward valiant.
... Why, this
Will lug your priests and servants from your sides,
Pluck stout men’s pillows from below their heads:
This yellow slave
Will knit and break religions, bless the accursed;

Make the hoar leprosy adored, place thieves
And give them title, knee and approbation
With senators on the bench: This is it
That makes the wappen’d widow wed again;

She, whom the spital-house and ulcerous sores
Would cast the gorge at, this embalms and spices
To the April day again. Come, damned earth,
Thou common whore of mankind, that put’st odds
Among the rout of nations.”



“O thou sweet king-killer, and dear divorce
‘Twixt natural son and sire! thou bright defiler
Of Hymen’s purest bed! thou valiant Mars!
Thou ever young, fresh, loved and delicate wooer,

Whose blush doth thaw the consecrated snow
That lies on Dian’s lap! Thou visible God!
That solder’st close impossibilities,
And makest them kiss! That speak’st with every tongue,

To every purpose! O thou touch of hearts!
Think, thy slave man rebels, and by thy virtue
Set them into confounding odds, that beasts
May have the world in empire!”

Our money system is America's problem
And the fiat paper we are forced to use illegally is not gold, it is fool's gold.

This money system was designed by crooks, thieves, scam artists, liars, cheats, and every disgusting word that can be uttered to the highest decibel to describe this crime against America.

Its Crime Bosses who run this system, not honest men.
Honest men who work in this system of crime, simply do not understand where the crime of it all is.

They are like the men of 1849 and the California Gold Rush.
But not knowing the difference in gold and fools gold.
Deciet is the base of our entire money system, born from the greed of men who love money more than country or God.

The Federal Reserve Banking System is Americas Problem, and the crooks who run it and support it.

We need a return to Constitutional Money, gold and silver.

John Adams visits this thread
"All the perplexities, confusion and distresses in America arise not from defects in the Constitution or Confederation, nor from want of honor or virtue, as much from downright IGNORANCE of the nature of coin, credit and circulation"

And is why bankers get rich off the labors of working Americans, who own this country today

Why is Gold money?
Gold, a soft shiny metal, was of no value to any farmer any herdsman or any man making things of value such as pots pans weapons and houses. Because of it's shiny surface that will not rust or tarnish it WAS worth something to the high preists for sacred objects and the to kings and other rulers for jewelry and ornaments. In other words it was worth NOTHING to 99.99 percent of humanity, but it had value because the aforementioned people AKA the government would accept it for payment of taxes. That is exactly why fiat money is worth something today. If it is worthless in your opinion, mail it to me.

FED Bail Out-the Fleecing of America
The philosophy behind the statement "What's good for General Motors is good for the country" has been taken to a stratospheric and dizzying new level by the bailout of a corrupt, greedy, inefficient and sinking Financial market,by the Federal Reserve-a non-accountable financial dictatorship developed and run by the moneyed interests of this country (and world- since they are globalists to the core) to control this nation's fiancial heritage- using U.S. tax payer dollars to finance their operations. So these crooks 'screw' us twice; 1st, by instigating, for profit, a system of loans and finances that was guaranteed and DOOMED to fail; and 2nd,by picking the pocket of the American people to make up for the losses that THEY have incurred by their own greed and ineptitude. This is what we have come down to in 21st century America- Capitalism for the Poor; Socialism for the Rich. Lincoln's government "of the people, by the people, and for the people" has "gone with the wind" and been replaced by a self-serving entrenched Oligarchy, taking care of its own interests 1st and foremost, and riding the backs of the vanishing American middle class to accomplish its purpose. Once they have succeeded in their primary mission, which is to wreck the U.S. economy into bankruptcy( NINE TRILLION dollars in debt, and rising quickly )and eliminate the American middle class, they will then turn over the keys to America as a banana republic franchise for the emerging European colossus.

Gold has been money, 5000 years

Of world history.
Bankers love it best of all, but hide their glut of it.


boone writes:
Why is Gold money?
blah blah blah
----------
If you do not know by now, you never will

Brer Fox , excellent post
And a Bullseye.
Many of us see it and are not as stupid as the politicians and bankers think we are

blue suede shoes? heh heh heh
Hey talent now your into my area..Blue Suede Shoe
smile.
Hey look folks..you are really educating me..
but could we get into something a little less...
intellect..like-- the HOW MUCH..GRAVITY WILL IT
TAKE TO PULL DOWN THE BUTTERFIES!?
ELVIS

Talent Scout
Nice work. You've helped lot's of folks with your posts, all of which are horrifyingly correct.

God Bless.

Avoid debt, avoid cash, hold gold or silver and real estate. Quickly convert your real estate deeds into allodial titles. Maybe it all crashes, maybe it doesn't, but at least you sleep on a soft pillow. And the government can't tax you out of your property...

Perdido
Your post is appreciated.
I have felt like its useless to say anything about this, at times.

Because of how deeply entrenched the present system is, in our lives and government, makes it hard to explain , not my position, but of the Founders themselves.

Sometimes I sit in awe of people like GG, who seem to understand some of this about fiat money, yet supports it anyway.
He must make his living off this system.


Nathan Mayer Rothschild Quote

"I care not what puppet is placed on
the throne of England to rule the Empire, ...
The man that controls Britain's money
supply controls the British Empire.
And I control the money supply."


This is the same sentiment of the Federal Reserve Bankers, they control the money supply here.


Anyone interested
Should read the exchanges of converstaion between Alan Greenspan and Congressman Ron Paul




Mr. GREENSPAN. I think you have to define what you mean by a ''free market.'' If you have a fiat currency, which is what everyone has in the world--

Dr. PAUL. That is not free market.

Mr. GREENSPAN. That is not free market. Central banks, of necessity, determine what the money supply is. If you are on a gold standard or other mechanism in which the central banks do not have discretion, then the system works automatically.

The reason there is very little support for the gold standard is the consequences of those types of market adjustments are not considered to be appropriate in the 20th and 21st century. I am one of the rare people who have still some nostalgic view about the old gold standard, as you know, but I must tell you, I am in a very small minority among my colleagues on that issue.


http://www.usagold.com/gildedopinion/greenspan-gold.html


Hey Talent Scout
Robert Frost said it even better than Shakespeare, predicting the downfall of our country to socialism and central-bank inflation thievery fifty years ago. It's an Easter poem yet, though probably not the Easter the founding fathers had in mind. Ron Paul forever!

The Bad Island--Easter
(Perhaps so called because it may have risen once)

That primitive head
So ambitiously vast,
Yet so rude in its art,
Is as easily read
For the woes of the past
As a clinical chart.
For one thing alone,
the success of the lip
So scornfully curled,
Has that tonnage of stone
Been brought in a ship
Halfway round the world.

They were days on that stone.
They gave it the wedge
Till it flaked from the ledge.
Then they gave it a face.
Then with tackle unknown
They stood it in place
On a cliff for a throne.
They gave it a face
Of what was it? Scorn
Of themselves as a race
For having been born?
And then having first
Been cajoled and coerced
Into being beruled?
By what stratagem
Was their cynical throng
So cozened and bullied
And jollied along?
Were they told they were free
And persuaded to see
Something in it for them?
Well the flourished and waxed
By executive guile,
By fraud and by force,
Or so for a while;
Until overtaxed
In nerve and resource
They started to wane.
They emptied the aisle
Except for a few
That can but be described
As a vile residue,
And garrulous too.
They were punished and bribed;
All was in vain,
Nothing would do.
Some mistake had been made
No book can explain,
Some change in the law
That nobody saw
Except as a gain.
But one thing is sure,
Whatever kultur
They were made to parade,
What heights of altrur-
ian thought to attain,
Not a trace of it's left
But the gospel of sharing,
And that has decayed
Into a belief
In being a thief
And persisting in theft
With cynical daring.




Crank Convention
As a trained economist, I love reading this thread: an amusement park for economic nonsense.

We've just finished the lowest-inflation 15-year period in more than half a century (http://www.gpoaccess.gov/eop/2008/B64.xls)

.....and all you cranks complain about hyperinflation conspiracies?

Huh?

What's next? Complaints about the Cubs winning too many World Series?


Wrong, as usual
Tommy gets it all wrong once again, unless this is a lame attempt at satire.

The Federal Reserve does not regulate anything. They expand and contract money supply. that's it. In 1929 the Fed could not do anything. The problem then was unregulated stock markets - no controls or regulatory oversight of whether the stock was fairly traded, or even if the companies traded were real. Today we have the problem of unregulated securities markets - same problem, same results - mass panic because the house of cards is falling. Bear Stearns is most likely the beginning of the problem, not the end. The cause was lack of regulation of whether the loans given in the market were real or not (that is, would they be repaid, or was it just stolen money)- it is obvious now that they were not. The Securities market (most accurately understood as a betting operation) bet wrong - they bet the loans were "real" that is, they would be repaid (interestingly, Goldman-Sachs reversed their bet last year and bet the loans were bad, and won big!). Las Vegas would have done much better at running this market - Las Vegas has odds makers (Wall Street does not) and the professionals always hedge their bets. Wall Street has been shown to be loaded with rank amateurs and total idiots. Paulsons recent solution for the market in general is to eliminate even the lax regulations that exist (to follow the British system, which, by the way, is in freefall with the Government actually buying the banks). The problem is that children and amatuers must have adult supervision and be regulated. Sowell is obviously an amatuer in this game. Someone should supervise his moronic "commentary."

Dan the Socialist
"In 1929 the Fed could not do anything. The problem then was unregulated stock markets - no controls or regulatory oversight of whether the stock was fairly traded, or even if the companies traded were real."

I think you're missing the problem in that the Fed's *response* to the crash was wrong. They tightened the money supply.

That, plus a number of other mistakes made by these governmental agencies that you have so much faith in, are what turned a minor downturn into a full-blown depression.


Dan: "Someone should supervise his moronic "commentary.""

What, and miss out on these moronic little comments from yourself?

Isn't it fun
when the criminals go to the criminals for evidence?

Do you think we EXPECT the feds to explain what they are doing to scam us? Haven't you been listening at all?

That's what I see as the problem. People like you are sheep. If the party says everything is great, YOU say everything is great. If the party says everything is bad (which they will as soon as the democrats take office) then YOU say everything is bad. And you write down THEIR sources to argue the position YOU never had on your own.

Ignorance, TomLibertard, it's a BAD thing.

I am a trained electronics engineer, that doesn't mean I can build a time machine.

My TRAINED economics professor, who just so happened to have worked on the FED advisory team, was manager of an extremely large bank (at the same time as teaching) DISAGREES with you and agrees with us.

So, tell us, why is your training better than HIS training? Because you happen to work for the government now? Exactly... job protection, fuels your lies. Just like GG-AZ.

Tha should have read
Isn't it funny how the criminals in government investigate themselves and always find themselves innocent.

Man, I wish I could do that!

Both TomLibtard and GG-AZ.gov love to site government sources to prove everything is peachy. Well, guess what, Bush has been telling us everything is peachy for years, yet reality tells an entirely different story.

Good one...
Vindex...calling me a "tard?" How old are you, 5?

If that's the best you can do, you got nothing.
Yawn.

You Uncovered the Conspiracy!!
and Yes, Vindex..all the government inflation data is wrong.

Prices have really doubled every single year. And the Bureau of Labor Statistics is part of the grand government-wide conspiracy to alter the inflation data just to trick you from learning of their master plan.

They are also hiding the Roswell aliens on the North American Union highway, along with the Halliburton Execs, the White House 9/11 inside job plans, the gun that killed Vince Foster, and the government tap into your phone.

Seriously, take off the tinfoil hat.

You are a moron sir
TomLibertarian writes: 12:35 AM
Crank Convention
As a trained economist, I love reading this thread: an amusement park for economic nonsense.

We've just finished the lowest-inflation 15-year period in more than half a century (http://www.gpoaccess.gov/eop/2008/B64.xls)

.....and all you cranks complain about hyperinflation conspiracies?

Huh?

What's next? Complaints about the Cubs winning too many World Series?
----------
Your mockery means nothing and has no effect except for one.
Proves you are a moron.

Better men than you have spoken on this same issue and their voice is still just as true today as when they spoke them.


"[The] Bank of the United States... is one of the most deadly hostility existing, against the principles and form of our Constitution... An institution like this, penetrating by its branches every part of the Union, acting by command and in phalanx, may, in a critical moment, upset the government. I deem no government safe which is under the vassalage of any self-constituted authorities, or any other authority than that of the nation, or its regular functionaries. What an obstruction could not this bank of the United States, with all its branch banks, be in time of war! It might dictate to us the peace we should accept, or withdraw its aids. Ought we then to give further growth to an institution so powerful, so hostile?" --Thomas Jefferson to Albert Gallatin, 1803. ME 10:437

TomLibertarian wears more tinfoil
On his head than can be found in Walmart.


Inflation is indicated by gold, the true money,
and described by Alan Greenspan as the best indicator of inflation.


US Congressional Record
Mr. GREENSPAN. I think the price of gold has, over the decades, been a generally usable indicator of what the level of inflation has been

Gold Eagles Minted in 1906 were worth $20 US Dollars.

That same Gold Eagle today sells for $960.00

All can tell the rate of inflation simply by watching how fast gold rises on world markets.
And it been booming the last 5 years

So Tom, take your bs and peddle it to GG of Arz.
He is a buyer.

Gold is all fiat papers judge, no matter if the contefeiters like it or not, its out of their control and why they hate gold as a standard, but love to hoard it.

"Because gold’s value is intrinsic, and its price governed absolutely (in the absence of market manipulation) by the economic forces of supply and demand, it is not subject, in an absolute sense, to participation, or abandonment, by any government or financial institution."


HA
You have to go back 100 years to find your evidence of hyperinflation?

So much namecalling....so that no one notices you have no evidence of any dangerous inflation in the last 25 years.

Thanks for playing, we have some lovely parting gifts at the door.

Oy -- gold?
namecalling, yes. Oy.

That's certain evidence that 1) the thread has deteriorated too far, and 2) the arguing principles have run out of arguments.

Gold is not a "true money". Nobody uses it that way any more. Nobody. It is merely a commodity. The price goes up, and the price goes down. Just like a barrel of crude. The price goes up.

And the price goes down (we may just need to wait a while).

Gold is one of those commodities that investors buy when they want to hedge their bets against the economy. A rising price in gold is NOT an indication of inflation. It's only an indication of how much (or little) faith the goldbugs have in the economy.

Right now, their faith is nearly non-existent. Once their faith is restored (and it will be sooner or later), the price of gold will plummet like a gold-plated brick.

That Being Said --
-- it doesn't mean that having a government sponsored Central Bank is a good idea.

"[The] Bank of the United States... is one of the most deadly hostility existing, against the principles and form of our Constitution."

See, that's very true. The Central Bank is probably not Constitutional, although I haven't heard any arguments for against it on Constitutional grounds, so given my ignorance, I will not comment there.

But I have heard any number of Free Market alternatives to a Central Bank. Using a commodity like gold is one of many choices.

Gold has too many practical uses other than money. It *is* subject to inflation, such as when the Spanish brought back all that gold from the New World. Suppose we find another Comstock Lode? Suppose Egypt decides to melt down all their ancient Pharoah treasure to finance some mega-project? Suppose the US opens up Fort Knox to pay down its debt?

In a nutshell, I agree that the Fed is a bad idea. But a gold standard isn't a good solution either. (google "free market alternative central bank", click "I'm Feeling Lucky")

Off subject, but
Okay the Fed is bailing out Bear Stearns, and Congress is trying to figure out how bail out the subprime lenders and the subprime borowers.

How is it that folks like me who go to work on a regular basis, pay our taxes, and aren't up to our eyeballs in debt are expected to pay for the chislers, crooks, and those too stupid to pay their bills?
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