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Tuesday, March 11, 2008
Thomas Sowell :: Townhall.com Columnist
The Costs of Crime
by Thomas Sowell
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For more than two centuries, the political left has been preoccupied with the fate of criminals, often while ignoring or downplaying the fate of the victims of those criminals.

So it is hardly surprising that a recent New York Times editorial has returned to a familiar theme among those on the left, on both sides of the Atlantic, with its lament that "incarceration rates have continued to rise while crime rates have fallen."

Back in 1997, New York Times writer Fox Butterfield expressed the same lament under the headline, "Crime Keeps on Falling, But Prisons Keep on Filling." Then, as now, liberals seemed to find it puzzling that crime rates go down when more criminals are put behind bars.

Nor is it surprising that the left uses an old and irrelevant comparison -- between the cost of keeping a criminal behind bars versus the cost of higher education. According to the Times, "Vermont, Connecticut, Delaware, Michigan, and Oregon devote as much or more to corrections as they do to higher education."

The relevant comparison would be between the cost of keeping a criminal behind bars and the cost of letting him loose in society. But neither the New York Times nor others on the left show any interest in that comparison.

In Britain, the total cost of the prison system per year was found to be £1.9 billion, while the financial cost alone of the crimes committed per year by criminals was estimated at £60 billion.

The big difference between the two kinds of costs is not just in their amounts. The cost of locking up criminals has to be paid out of government budgets that politicians would prefer to spend on giveaway programs that are more likely to get them re-elected. But the far higher costs of letting criminals loose is paid by the general public in both money and in being subjected to violence.

The net result is that both politicians and ideologues of the left are forever pushing "alternatives to incarceration." These include programs with lovely names like "community supervision" and high-tech stuff like electronic devices to keep track of released criminals' locations.

Just how do you "supervise" a criminal who is turned loose in the community? Assigning someone to be with him, one on one and 24/7, would probably be a lot more expensive than locking him up.

But of course no one is proposing any such thing. Having the released criminal reporting to some official from time to time may be enough to allow the soothing word "supervision" to be used. But it hardly restricts what a criminal does with the other nine-tenths of his time when he is not reporting.

Electronic devices work only when they are being used. Even when they are being used 24/7, they tell you only where the criminal is, not what he is doing.

Those released criminals who don't even want that much restriction can of course remove the device and become an escapee, with far less trouble or risk than is required to escape from prison.

One of the most insidious aspects of "alternatives to incarceration" programs is that those who control such programs often control also the statistical and other information that would be needed to assess the actual consequences of these programs.

They not only control what information is released but to whom it will be released.

When officials whose careers are on the line can choose between researchers who view incarceration as being "mean-spirited" toward criminals and other researchers who are much less sympathetic to criminals, who do you think is going to get access to the data?

A study of the treatment of criminals in Britain -- "A Land Fit for Criminals" by David Fraser -- has several chapters on the games that are played with statistics, in order to make "alternatives to incarceration" programs look successful, even when they are failing abysmally, with tragic results for the public.

Britain has gone much further down the road that the New York Times is urging us to follow. In the process, Britain has gone from being one of the most law-abiding nations on earth to overtaking the United States in most categories of crime.

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About The Author
Thomas Sowell is a senior fellow at the Hoover Institute and author of The Housing Boom and Bust.
 
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All It Takes Is Once
Thank you again Dr. Sowell for showing how statistics and economic figures should be properly evaluated. It baffles me why individuals make it their life mission to keep rotten people on the streets. This should be an area where Republicans and Democrats have much agreement.

Have you ever returned to your home only to find someone has broken in, stolen valuables, and trashed the place? Then you find out they found a key to one of your cars and it is gone. In fact, they used it to haul off everything. The feeling at that precise moment is not one of compassion and understanding with a hope that the person won't do it again. The feeling is one of outrage and wanting to put whoever did it in jail - for a long time. And this is just a robbery. I can't imagine the feelings of being raped, having a family member murdered, and all the other heinous crimes committed against people.

I have always maintained that if juries could actually witness the crimes committed, they would have much less compassion on the misguided good person that just had a bad day (or rough childhood) that is sitting before them in a suit and tie. Maybe I'm the one that doesn't understand, but I'm all in favor of building as much jail space as is needed to accommodate all those that work so hard to live there.

Flimsy Rampart
I was recently privileged to here Jonathan Rosenberg, Senior Vice President, Product Management and Marketing for Google talk about their vision for the future that inspires the company. It’s not about HIPPOS protecting their part of the watering hole.

It’s about which combined data sets best foretell eventual outcomes. When analyzing efficient uses for limited resources that have alternative uses, Google relies solely on stored data to determine what action, product or policy will succeed.

The future belongs to proven medians that demonstrate beneficial outcomes. Perpetually entrenching ones self within cherry picked statistics will not maintain whatever moat or drawbridge you’ve constructed. Once that flimsy rampart is breached with data sets available to everyone, you’ll have no where to hide, whoever you are.


Why do they think crime is falling?
"incarceration rates have continued to rise while crime rates have fallen"

It seems obvoius to me the reason crime goes down is because more of those who commit crimes are behind bars and serving longer sentences.

Why those on the left can't see the obvious puzzles me.

People on the left have a vested
interest in these non-encarceration programs. The alternatives that are always proposed are more "give-away" programs. Remember "midnight basketball" during the Klinton years.

They always seek those things that advance the cause of socialism no matter how they are proven to not work.

The Cost Of Crime
We as a nation continue to be inundated with the criminal element, and one thing's for sure, it's unstoppable. It's not a question of why it happens but when, and we as Americans need to focus more on putting criminals behind bars and throwing away the key, than rehabilitation.
We've had this "hollywood" approach to dealing with criminal behavior where the rights of the criminal trump the rights of the victim, and we're scarred for life on this one.
Our prison's have become country clubs for criminals to the point where entertainment is geared towards the system. You have artist who play concerts in prison on a regular basis-it's a badge of honor for an entire generation.
My solution is, we have all this land in the desert going to waste lets build us some bare bones prisons, and by that I mean heavy on the iron and concrete we have to stop this politically correct approach to incarceration-more fans less air-conditioning, and rewire the fans to the slowest possible energy conserving speed imaginable.
So, you want to be a career criminal let's put you idiot butt in the desert, and finally, I think floggings should make a serious comeback.

Crime
Can't wait until the trolls get onn this.

Well, it is 4:06 AM. better get some sleep. I swobby on patrol?


War on Drugs
One way to reduce crime would be to stop the completely failed and outrageously expensive war on drugs. Just leave drug users alone--unless they're driving or making a nuisance of themselves. On other words, treat other drugs just like we treat alcohol. We don't see turf wars and drive-by shootings involving alcohol today, but they did happen in the 1920s, when alcohol was illegal. Alcohol prohibition didn't stop alcohol use; drug prohibition doesn't stop drug use. But a much more significant way that the drug war increases crime is by imprisoning drug using losers who are not violent. This causes prison overcrowding, and, hence, early release of truly violent thugs. In addition, because drug arrests are easier and safer for cops than arresting truly dangerous people, the courts are plugged up with drug cases. Overwhelmed district attorneys therefore have neither the time nor the manpower to prosecute all the real criminals who come through the courts, so they plea bargain. Murder becomes manslaughter, rape becomes simple assault, GTA becomes larceny. Twenty-five to life becomes three to five with time off for good behavior and these vicious thugs are released to prey on us some more. All because we can't leave alone some loser who wants to waste his life doing bong hits in front of the television.

Crime is Big Business
There are many, many people that make their living off of crime. I am not speaking of criminals in the traditional sense but of all those in the business of enforcement, prosecution, defense and encarceration. There is an entire industry built on 'crime' and real efforts to diminish criminal behavior would adversely affect all those that work in the industry.

A classic line in a movie by an FBI agent 'thank God for murderers, rapists and thieves. Those people are putting my kids through college'. Add the people thinking that way to the people that see all criminals as victims and you have a block that will thwart real efforts to put criminals out of business.

To: Greg the Californian
What the he** does this have to to with the topic at hand? Did you read the same article I did?

Criminal minds
can be educated or not. If kids learn that it is easy to steal from a store or take the little kids' money they will continue with that mindset until they face consequences serious enough to deter them. More education just means a smarter, white collar criminal. They need to be treated the same when caught. The smarter criminal might be less apt to repeat if Bubba was his cell mate instead of a private cell at club fed. The less intellegent criminal is more likely to get caught and, if we stick to three strikes and you're out, they will soon be removed from society. Maybe this would be a good reason to establish relations with Cuba now. Maybe a citizen's exchange program.

The Disconnect
There is a fundamental disconnect in our society about the motivations of the average criminal. "Progressives" believe that poverty, deprivation, and lack of self-esteem are what cause criminal behavior. Unfortunately, this isn't entirely correct.

If this were true 100% of the time, or even most of the time, practically every poor person would be a criminal. In fact, most poor people are no more dishonest than anyone else. Rather, a small percentage of the population engages in criminal activity, generally repetitively. As a rule, this segment does not think in terms of long-range planning, but rather in terms of immediate gratification. As for "low self-esteem", they are mostly colossal egoists who believe themselves to be superior. (A good portrait of this mindset can be found in Tom Wolfe's "Mau-Mauing The Flak Catchers".) They do what they do because it's both profitable, and (in their minds) fun. "alternatives to incarceration" simply confirm them in their beliefs- they see them as perks, not a chance to change their lives. Because they don't want to change.

This is probably why "rehabilitation" doesn't work on them. As we used to say in the crime lab, it's hard to rehabilitate someone who was never "habilitated" in the first place.


cheers

eon

Crime will be the Major problem unitl. .
we incarcerate ALL the biggest criminals -- we need to start with the entire Congress of the United States and work down the chain. Next would be most of the Judicial Branch followed by a large share of the Administrative branch at all levels of government - local, state and federal. Then elect people who respect the Constitution and govern us strictly under it. The Constitution is NOT a list of Permissions it is a list of LIMITATIONS on the government -- when the biggest crooks can ignore its limitations openly, blatantly, with impunity AND practically thumb their noses at it,we end up as the lawless society we have become!

Results without Effort
As I have said before, the really big motivation for most crime is the overwhelming mindset that they are ENTITLED. Lefties and those misguided churchmen who do not understand that times have changed continue to pound away at the axiom that people GOTTARIGHT to things that must be produced and provided by either hard work or by others, and they forget to specify BY WHAT MEANS these RIGHTS are to be obtained. A thug who has been told that hes GOTTARIGHT to material goodies has no problem hitting you over the head and taking them from you, or looting your store, or robbing your home. They believe that you only had it in the first place because you were *more fortunate* and all they are doing is evening out the *fortune.*

Generation GrabbyBaby believes it is entitled to everything it wants, the instant it wants it. Therefore, it is entitled to rape you if you have the gall to say no; it is entitled to your car if it needs a ride; it is entitled to your iPod if nobody gave it one. And the lefties tell them (and us) that if we did not have the gall to have nice things in the first place, GrabbyBaby would not have hit us over the head and taken them. If we had not been so rude as to say NO, GrabbyBaby would not have raped us. And if we had allowed him to rape us, he would probably not have killed us.

Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind. Teach your kids that they are entitled to lose weight without diet and exercise, get high grades without learning anything, be promoted without putting in the hours or the work necessary (YOUARACIST! ANTI-FAMILY! ANTI-CHILD!) -- and that rich people are evil, and made their money on the backs of the proles, and you fit them for a life of crime.

Thanks TruLib!

What would we do without you "everything-is-a-big-business-conspiracy" trolls!? What makes you conspiracy nuts so fun is that you really seem to believe your incoherencies.

Okay, let's take a stroll down Looney Tunes Lane and see what life looks like when viewed from behind the diseased mind of a true liberal:

- Undertakers are responsible for death.
- Medical doctors are responsible for illness.
- Teachers are responsible for ignorance.
- Home builders are responsible for homelessness.
- Banks are responsible for poverty.
- Deodorant manufacturers are to blame for B.O.
- Farmers are responsible for hunger.
- Entertainers are responsible for boredom.
- Clothing manufacturers are responsible for cold weather.

And of course:

- The military makes us less secure.
- Pharmaceutical firms poison us.

And,

- Conservativism is responsible for enslaving people.
- Liberalism is responsible for preserving individual liberty.

Love you trolls!

Doug writes:
We don't see turf wars and drive-by shootings involving alcohol today, but they did happen in the 1920s, when alcohol was illegal. Alcohol prohibition didn't stop alcohol use; drug prohibition doesn't stop drug use.

More people are killed every year in this country by drunk drivers than by all the gang wars in the 20s. If you think cracking down on drugs doesn't prevent rampant drug use then there is no convincing you. Every country where drug use was legalized it took off. Then the libs have another class of loosers for the working people to take care of.

TruLib
You take your views on crime and punishment from Hollywood movies? No wonder you are 180 degrees off track.

audi
excellent summary!

There have been times of much greater poverty with lower crime rates, so the left can't depend on that excuse. The main cause of increasing / decreasing crime is what the society at large is willing to put up with. When it becomes the #1 issue in elections and people demand results (rather than "he talks nicely but his shirt is the wrong colour so I can't vote for him" popularity contests that show that the matter isn't serious enough for everyone) then things get done.

There was another thread a short time ago (I think it was Jonah's) where a similarity between the moral basis for Wilberforce's anti-slave movement used similar tactics to Rudi's "broken windows" approach to crime: once the populous agrees that a behavior (crime, wanton behavior, slavery) is out-of-the-ordinary and wrong, they adjust accordingly. Getting them to recognize is usually the hard part. That's why Audi's comments seem so right to me.

Liberty Tree
You write

-Teachers are responsible for ignorance.

and

-Entertainers are responsible for boredom.

While I understand that (in context) you are being ironic, unfortunately, I believe you may have accidentally made two true statements here. Have you seen the results of the public education system? Or watched an awards show?

AudiR10
Fantastic post. You hit the nail on the head and burried it on the first swing.

The trouble with rights is responsibility. Yes, I have a right to own a house (which I, as yet, do not). But to own that house I have to take responsibility to pay for it (Mortgage, taxes, insurance, etc.). If I fulfill that responsibility, no one on Earth has the authority to take it from me. But if I fail in that responsibility, I give up my right. The rights in the Constitution work the same way. The Second Ammendment is a good example. I have a right to own a gun. However, to exercise that right, I need (a) to pay the money required to purchase that gun or have it given to me as a gift and (b) to use that gun responsibly. If -- and only if -- I use it to commit a crime, I should (a) lose a whole bunch of other rights, and (b) lose the right to keep and bear arms.

Failing to act responsibly with the rights you have can mean having them taken away.

Crime and Rehab
Years ago in a WSJ article, Irving Kristol stated that nothing warms as much the hearts of parole officers as the news that their parolee is getting married. I believe Dr. Sowell should investigate the rehabilitating power of marriage.

Vision if the Anointed
I’m sorry Mr/Mrs $..., I may have been a little bit too obtuse? Let me make it plain for enough for you.

There are lies, big lies and then statistics. The net makes information (data) easily available to the many so that it’s now harder for a few troglodyte bureaucrats to hide behind numbers cooked up to support their claims of success.

Dr. Sowell has yet again pointed out above another Vision if the Anointed. It will be increasing more difficult, if not impossible, for socialists to use numbers repositioned for a favorable argument when framing their assertions. They will be forced to use even more emotional appeals over sustentative outcomes to bolster their positions.

I don’t much care for Barrack Obama or Hugo Chavez for the same reason liberals do.


Talk about the cost of crime.....
what about the illegal aliens? These are true criminals. They entered our country illegally. While here they have to commit crimes to work and live here. A good number of them flat enter into a life of crime. My point is money. It costs the state of Maryland about $30,000 a year per inllegal to keep them here. So would it be more financially sound to keep them here and support them or would it be more sound to deport them.

Crime and economics
Sowell is right as usual, but perhaps he should emphasize the basic point that most behavior is a question of incentives. If the benefits of committing crime outweigh the costs, you will get more of it, and vice versa. Penalties need to be increased to take into count not just the crime, but the probability of actually being caught, convicted, and punished.
]
For example, if a given crime nets $1,000 on average and there is only a 1% chance of being apprehended, convicted, and punished, the penalty would need to be AT LEAST $1,000 ÷ .01 = $100,000. I would double or triple it in order to provide a strong disincentive rather than leave it a break-even proposition. While numerical values may not always be easy to determine, the principle still holds, even if approximated.

Restitution to victims is a must as well, and criminals should be forced to work while imprisoned to pay not only for their keep, but to compensate the victims.

roadkill58,
Rampant drug use already exists in this country. Users care not whether it's legal. As for legalization increasing use, ask yourself this: Of all the people you kno who abstain from crack, how many will tell you that the reason they abstain is because it's illegal? If it were legal, addicts could support their habits by begging, just like winos do. Wino beggars can be annoying, but they're not dangerous. A junkie in need of a fix is extremely dangerous, because the only way to get his fix is to resort to any means to steal the money to pay the artificially high price caused by prohibition. And one more thing: You haven't done your homework. In the Netherlands, where pot is legal, a lower percentage of the population lights up than in America, where it's not. And in case you're wondering, I do not use any drugs, prescription or otherwise.

Crime
As far as I am concerned prison is not for rehibilatation but to keep people who can't handle FREEDOM away from the rest of us. The cost of jailing them is cheaper than the cost to society for their crimes. Three strikes and you are OUT of SOCIETY!!!

Misleading article
This disappointing article misleads readers in a several ways.

First of all, it fails in both the narrative and statistics to distinguish between violent crimes versus non-violent crimes. As for violent crimes and property crimes – have at it – lock ‘em up. As I’m typing, I have a sign on the lawn for a $1,000 reward for info on vandals who beat the windows out of my wife’s car. Nothing was stolen, just vandalism. No sympathy. Also, no sympathy for the drunk that crossed the median and decapitated my cousin enroute to get her 5 yr old daughter from daycare.

I DO have sympathy for a friend sitting in front of his own house smokin’ a joint – followed by a year in jail for smokin’. The only violence ever displayed by a casual weed user was the manner in which they dived into munchies. Yet, the costs of incarceration for a murderer vice weed user are all balled up in the total. Just like the other misleading statistics on the rising crime rates.

Stop the senseless incarceration of non-violent crimes and it will free up the courts for the important stuff. Likewise, time, energy and resources can be focused on the ones that really deserve it.

stiritup50
I think you are confounding non-violent with victimless crimes. A white-collar embezzler is non-violent but can rob countless retirees of their incomes in their golden years.

I've always found it odd (to say the least) that as a society, we'll use powerful psychotropic drugs on children who act up (rather than apply discipline) and yet a professional adult can't smoke a joint in the privacy of his or her own home on a Saturday night.

Prison Management is Profitable
If you don’t think it’s a HUGE money making industry, just research the privatization of prison operations. These prison management companies have plenty of incentive to fill the prisons, build new ones so they can manage them, send non-violent weed users across the nation to less crowded prisons – even Hawaii exports prisoners to the mainland.

It’s even prevalent with local city/county jails that have become so large they are nothing less than small prisons in the way the inmate population divides into gangs.

The prison management industry has lobbyists that insist on the most insane laws that insure their longevity and continued money making scams…you know, save money here, save money there, … Let’s see,…how many cots can we put in the hallways…cut the meals in half,… Incarceration doesn’t have to be inhumane. Maricopa Joe…what a joke.

Legalizing drugs
There are economic benefits to legalizing drugs as well as the social benefits.

1. We destroy the black market (the main reason this will never happen). By doing this we get the profits out of the hands of the "bad" guys, we regulate the quality as well as the sale of the product. We tax the sale of the product, and those who profit from the sale pay income taxes as well.
2. It becomes easier to control underage use. While regulating the sale of alcohal does not eliminate underage drinking, it makes it harder. A kid wanting drugs is buying from soemone already breaking the law, they don't care if the kid is underage, but someone selling legitimately who have a responsibility not to sell to underage users, as well as a consequence if caught.
3. We free up prison space.

Prohibition doesn't work. It didn't work in the '20's and it isn't working now.

More Laws means...more crimes
The problem with rising crime rates is that everything we do nowadays has become a crime – yelling at someone is no longer free speech…it’s a terroristic threat that upon conviction gets you placed on a “no fly” list for airlines…or it could possibly be called hate speech depending on how the law is written…

And to really lock it in…they (legislators) take away the judge’s ability to exercise any discretion to distinguish what punishment should be doled out by attaching mandatory minimum sentences…another travesty of justice. Does the weed smoker deserve to get gang raped? Child molesters, yeah, murderers, rapists, hell yes! The guy who lost his job, can’t pay his alimony…hell no!

Great posts by AudiR10 & C_Miner
How about the role of religious authorities who promote "Social Justice" and "Liberation Theology?"

At times, it sounds like Hillary saying, "We will have to take things from them" (those who are well-off).

In fact, it seems as though some in the religious community have replaced one of the 10 Commandments ("Thou shall not covet...") with one of the Seven Deadly Sins (Envy).

What ever happened to "My kingdom is not of this world?"

Mandatory Minimums...last post
Example of an insane mandatory minimum law:

At first blush, a law that provides for a mandatory minimum prison sentence for anyone who possesses a deadly weapon during the commission of a crime will go to prison for 25 years to life… sounds like a good idea.

But, one size law does NOT fit all. Especially in the case of the man who was stealing underwear and used a knife to cut the price tags off before stealing them. He was convicted and sentenced under an insane mandatory minimum law...use of a deadly weapon...during the commission of a crime. Whack him for stealing...but 25 years???? Actually, the prosecutoral abuse in such cases is another story...

Judges cannot consider that the real intent of the law was to curb the "stop and rob" cases in the inner-cities and not a scenario like this.

No, I’m not condoning theft…but in this case... My point is that the judge could not consider ANYTHING less than the mandatory minimum…regardless of the circumstances. The only thing in his favor was that he could give a MINIMUM. When people like Bill O’Reilly campaign for mandatory minimums, they just show their absolute ignorance.

People in positions of power should be dealt with individually if they are not doing the right thing. For those who have integrity and a few smarts to discern the true meaning of a law...we ought to give them the capability to make the decision.

See Families Against Mandatory Minimums

Soap box is closed.

victimless vs non-violent
christheprofessor...

not so much confused ... you're right... I just get passionate about this issue...

Incarcerations rise as crime rates fall.
Only to a moronic lefty winger (but I repeat myself) is that headline a surprise.

To those of us with a brain (read: NOT left wing), the link between the threat of punnishment for doing wrong and people doing less wrong is plainly obvious.

Or, put differently, as Thomas Sowell once said himself: "Minimizing the consequences of folly maximizes the amount of folly."

Liberals, crime and tragedy...

Yes, the deficiency of common sense among liberals is truly mind-boggling. They simply are incapable of equating action A with outcome B.

Any one who watches programs like American Justice or Cold Case Files knows all too well the tragedy of the liberal impact on our judicial system. Having watched such programs regularly, I simply cannot count how many real cases I’ve seen where people (women and children especially) have been horrifically assaulted or murdered by someone who should have been in prison. In most of these cases the killer has had a prior history of violent, criminal behavior – sending us a warning that they needed to be locked up for good.

Does anyone really believe that someone who gets enjoyment from hurting other people can be rehabilitated? What sane person thinks it’s a good idea to ever release such predators back into society? The answer is that liberals do. Here’s their thinking: any AVERAGE person can sympathize with the victims, but it takes a really SPECIAL and GENEROUS person (i.e. a liberal) to sympathize with the criminals. Yes unfortunately, just as liberals are generous with other people’s money, so are they generous with other people’s lives.

Matt Shepard
When Matthew Shepard was murdered, liberals cried about how we need a hate crimes law.

I wonder how many of those liberals will call for the early release of his murderers on the basis of showing compassion.

Roadkill58

Politicians are legal criminals
Politicans, especially the Democrats, are supported by criminals. Their agenda include allowing felons to vote on the grounds that states "descriminate" against felons. The black caucus signed a letter to Govenor Blanco (now ex-govenor) to pardon the Jena 6 because apparently beating a white kid for being white is not a crime in their eyes. I would encourage my fellow conservatives to invest in some sort of firearm because as John Lott shows, it pays for itself many times over.

Re: dbz77 @ 11:13 AM

“I wonder how many of those liberals will call for the early release of [Matthew Shepard’s] murderers on the basis of showing compassion.”

They won’t because, you see, they have their pet crimes (although they’ll still march around with picket signs if these guys ever go to execution). That’s what Hate-Crime legislation is all about, stiffer penalties for the crimes that most offend liberals. If Matthew Shepard had been savagely beaten and killed for his wallet, that would have somehow been less bad in their minds.

I saw a documentary on Shepard’s case on American Justice. It included an interview with Shepard’s mother that was one of the most heartbreaking interviews I’ve seen. She is an active proponent of Hate-Crime laws. While she has my deepest sympathy, I strongly disagree with trying to legislate and criminalize the way people think – rather than the way they behave.

It seems that every day I read or hear about another young woman who is abducted, assaulted, tortured and murdered – just for someone’s pleasure. These types of crimes happen far more frequently than your typical ‘hate crimes,’ but somehow these crimes are given second-tier status because they are not motivated by bigotry – which apparently is the crime that trumps all others in the minds of liberals.


Crime Reduction
If this society wanted to reduce crime to negligible amounts it could. It's like traffic laws, if a driver knew that if he got caught speeding he would face suspension of his driver license for one year, pay a thousand dollar fine, and serve thirty days in jail, how many speeders would be on our highways? State, county, and city budgets are based on traffic fines. For example a county will project that 400,000 dollars of their budget for the year will be paid by traffic fines and let's their police departments know the value of writing traffic tickets, the pay for their jobs depend of it. So traffic tickets are for revenue not for enforcement of traffic laws.
Our society could reduce crime considerably in this country by holding law breakers accountable for their crimes, but then where would lawyers, judges, prison systems, and other sundry and various law enforcement personnel and facilitites get their jobs from.

Nietzsche's individual will
Liberal anthropology is derived from Nietzsche: it affirms the sovereignty of the individual will, that the INDIVIDUAL WILL IS THE HIGHEST AND BEST VALUE, and asserts that the individual will is the ARBITER OF ALL VALUE. Within society, all individual wills are considered of equal value, validity, and worth, and there is no principle (e.g., God) by which to discern among them. Society is then a contest of a will to power, of asserting one's preferences over those of others.

On the ‘ANARCHO’ side, this translates into affirmation of the individual will over such traditional values as private property, public order, and EVEN HUMAN LIFE. If a crime of violence is committed, a conviction may be sustained, but a LONG INCARCERATION IS VIEWED WITH SUSPICION, as the imposition of a collective will over and above the highest good – the individual will that committed the crime. It is not legitimate within a liberal community to assert the communal will over (and) against an individual will (unless, of course, that individual human will contests the über principle of liberalism itself).

When you have a society that is run like an anarchy in which long incarceration is viewed with suspicion and as the imposition of a collective will over and above the highest good – the individual will that ACTUALLY COMMITTED A CRIME, how can you expect other than what we have?

Elizabeth Shoaf
Have any of you ever heard of Elizabeth Shoaf?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23518089/

Elizabeth Shoaf described the horror she endured with an air of calm that is
hard to imagine in an adult, let alone a teenage girl.

Just 17 months ago and at the age of 14, Elizabeth was abducted on her way
home from school in Lugoff, S.C., by a man dressed in combat fatigues who
claimed to be a police officer.

He handcuffed her, told her she was under arrest, and led her deep into the
woods, where he stripped her naked and chained her in a cramped and dank
"bunker" he had dug into the ground next to his trailer home. Several times
a day for 10 days, he raped her.


I wonder whom those "liberals" would show compassion to.

re: sedonaman
It shouldn't shock anybody here that Nietzsche died in an insane asylum. Does make one question the basic premise of his philosophies does it not?

Re: dbz77 and Elizabeth Shoaf
Not surprisingly Elizabeth Shoaf was not this guy’s first victim:

“Authorities had been looking for Filyaw, who was suspected of a sexual assault against a 12-year-old relative for months.”

Suppose for a moment that Filyaw had been caught and convicted for his assault on the 12-year old. Here’s how it would have played out: Defense attorney’s, with help from the ACLU types, would argue that this was his first offense (and probably it wasn’t – just the first time he’d been caught). He would have been given a relatively minor punishment, anywhere from probation to a few years in jail. Then what? He would have been released again to commit exactly the type of crime for which he was just apprehended.

Once again I would ask any libs out there: Do you see any problem with EVER releasing this guy back into society when he clearly is driven to harm young girls for his own pleasure? Is there even one of you who will take a stand and agree that people like him should be locked up forever?

Hmmm the headline shocks
Anybody who is even remotely familiar with the pathology of violent crime knows that 80 percent of violent crime is committed by a about 2 percent of the population. These are repeat offenders and with longer prison sentences and stiffer penalties for repeat offenses these bozo's are in jail so guess what violent crime falls.

The fact is that you lock the criminal up or execute him, violent crime decreases because you have one less violent criminal preying on the law abiding population.

Look at me, I'm pro choice
Let's give the cons a choice....incarceration or amputation of a hand.

There's more, dbz77
When I googled the Elizabeth Shoaf case, the article mentioned another recent abduction. Looking into that I found, not surprisingly, yet another convicted rapist set free to continue his predatory ways:

“Kenneth G. Hinson, a previously convicted rapist, was arrested today on charges of what else? Rape. He was arrested on charges of assaulting two 17 year old girls. Hinson had been previously convicted of raping a 12-year-old girl in 1991. Once again another case of giving the benefit of the doubt to the criminal and endangering the publics safety.”
In 1991, Hinson was convicted of raping a 12-year-old girl. He was released from prison in 2000 after serving nine years of a 20-year sentence, a decision state Attorney General Henry McMaster blasted Friday.
“This man was sentenced to 20 years. Had that 20 years meant 20 years, he’d still be in jail now, and this wouldn’t have happened,” McMaster told Fox News.
McMaster also chided a judge’s decision to not place Hinson in a program for sexually violent predators.
Just before Hinson’s release, a review committee recommended that he be committed indefinitely to a Department of Mental Health facility for treatment, but Circuit Judge Edward Cottingham rejected the recommendation, saying prosecutors failed to show Hinson would likely offend again.
(http://missingexploited.com/2006/03/17/kenneth-g-hinson-arrested-again-on-rape-charges-in-south-carolina/)

This is just one of thousands of similar cases. I could go on but it’s too depressing.

Matt Shepherd is a poor example
Of social injustice. As I recall it took less than 40 minutes for an all white, christian and probably heterosexual church going jury to find the defendants guilty. They were sentenced to death except for the one who turned evidence. He got life with no parole.

The SAME scenario played out in TX when that poor guy was dragged to death behind a pickup. Another all white and all male jury handed the same decision down in short order.

To hear the libs rewrite history these towns were full of yokels yukking it up over the gay guy and the black guy who got lynched.

-Ray

Bring Back the Death Penalty
Nine complete dirtbags got a pass on multiple murders by the libtards in New Jersey. And to anyone who thinks the death penalty (or any other harsh, physically painful penalty doesn't work) why don't you go and punch a mafia soldier in the mouth. Or maybe go to one of the local Dons' hangouts and try a stickup. How come nobody will do that?

Death by torture is an adequate penalty for rape or murder.

CW
writes, "but Circuit Judge Edward Cottingham rejected the recommendation, saying prosecutors failed to show Hinson would likely offend again"

Liberal judge. O'Reilly was railing about a similar situation years ago. This lends support to mandatory minimum sentences but, it shouldn't. We don't need one size fits all justice, we simply need conservative judges.

I think we need only two broad classes of crimes. Violent and non violent. Violent criminals should stay locked up. Non violent criminals should be given three chances and stay locked up.

A victimless crime is an oxymoron. How can there be a crime if there is no victim? Society does not count unless you are a flaming lib in which case society is the only victim that counts.

I love reading lock em up conservatives when it comes to drugs. All of a sudden, they get all liberal and start talking about costs to society and preventing people from harming themselves and all types of nonsense. I have to side with those wanting to end the drug war. Let's concentrate on the criminals and the crime rate that is decreasing might decrease a whole lot more.

Growing a plant in your back yard and smoking the dried flowers should not be a crime. Gunning down innocent bystanders in a gang war over dealing territory is one.

Maybe Liberals are Insane
Liberals promote victimology but have little empathy for victims of crime - only empathy for thugs.

Liberals oppose the death penalty because it is "cruel and inhumane" - yet drilling a hole in babies head and sucking out its brains is championed as a "right".

Liberals are against anyone trying to defend themselves - yet rail against police and the military who dedicate their lives to defending us.

Liberals destroy families by requiring removing the father before poor mothers can draw "benefits" from their socialistic programs.

Liberal Judges release criminals into the community yet themselves live in guarded affluent neighborhoods.

Liberals envision a tranquil world if only there theories were forced upon us - yet their theories bring nothing but despair and more crime.

Retired Geek
Good post!

Liberals ARE insane
But you make the common mistake, Retired Geek, that Sowell made in his "Anointed" book and conservatives consistently make, which is excluding yourselves from the human race. The truth is that ALL human beings are insane, not just liberals. So, I welcome you back into the human race, Retired Geek. You've been away too long.

I agree about drug crimes
I am all for harsh treatment of criminals, particularly career criminals and violent criminals. I think they should make prisons genuinely non-enjoyable - that guy in Arizona who puts prisoners in tents in the desert and feeds them peanut butter sandwiches has the right idea. I agree, however, that someone who wants to smoke a joint in his own house is a different case.

I think they should either legalize marijuana or turn possession into a misdemeanor. If someone is idiotic enough to drive while stoned, prosecute them the same way you do a drunk driver. If they steal to support their dope habit, prosecute them for stealing.

Hate crimes
I don't have a problem with the idea of hate crimes. The problem is that the proponants of this thinking start at the most extreme crimes. I don't understand how a racially motivated murder is any worse then any other murder. In either case the punishment should be the most extreme. On the other hand there is a big difference between vandalism and the KKK burning a cross in a black families front yard, or painting a swastika on synagogue. These are clearly hate crimes and should be punished differently.

Crime and education
Dr. Sowell is right when he says that it is a meaningless comparison liberals make when they compare the cost of incarcerating someone with the cost of higher education. The implication liberals make is that given a choice, the typical criminal would be happy to give up his life of crime if only given the opportunity of better education. BALONEY! If your typical criminal cared so much about his education as liberals seem to imply, he in all likelihood would not BE a crimina1 in the first place. Liberals talk about education as though it's a commodity you can give someone as easily as you can give them a television set or a welfare check. Again, it shows the delusional nature of their thinking: an education takes the active participation of the one being educated. I'd like any liberal out there to tell me how you FORCE someone to learn who doesn't want to. Crime is the direct by-product of a mentality that instant gratification is your right, and that if someone won't GIVE you something you've been taught you have the right to expect, then you therefore are justified in TAKING it. Why do men use date-rape drugs? Because of a mentality that they're ENTITLED to sex, and if the woman they seek it from won't provide it voluntarily, they figure they have the right to get it from her by whatever means. Every society has its share of people who would rather live off the labor of someone else rather than their own. The problem with our society is that it's providing much too much encouragement of that mentality.

Crimes that need punishment
The fact that our punishments have been reduced to levying fines and incarcerating individuals is quite depressing. They give us very few scenarios under which we can convert petty criminals into productive members of society. In fact, a lot of the time a hefty fine or a stint in jail converts a petty criminal into a career criminal, ruining any chance of ever having worthwhile credit, home ownership, or an honest job.

I think things like DUI and drug possession are very serious offenses, and they shouldn't be ignored by the wealthy on the one hand and crippling to the poor on the other. They shouldn't create hardened criminals either. So what about alternatives?

Punishments such as prison labor, caning, and public humiliation work in many cases. I think these should be presented as alternatives that convicts could choose over incarceration in cases where meaningful reform is possible. I think t a very public whuppin' is a far more appropriate punishment for something like a DUI than a stint in prison or a slap on the wrist.

Heck, even with severe criminal cases I could see choice-based alternatives creating better outcomes in the criminal justice system. Instead of a Death Sentence vs. Life In Prison dichotomy, how about a Death Sentence that one could opt out of for Life In Prison + 20 year labor where the proceeds from that labor are given as reparations to the survivors of the victim?

I think we've allowed ourselves to be trapped into a very narrow line of thinking due to self-serving lawyers on the bar, bench, and aisles of Congress.

Hitchhiker:

Your post came at an interesting time because with the Elliot Spitzer situation I was debating, in my own mind, the criminalization of things like prostitution, and I think the drug question is similar.

What went through my mind was a TV show I watched with my two teenage sons the other night (it was the sitcom ‘Frazier’). The same commercial for some chat line kept repeating with some scantily-clad, busty young girls suggestively twirling the phone cord while talking away on their beds. What they were REALLY trying to sell was pretty clear, and I wondered what my sons were thinking (they didn’t have a whole lot of time though, thanks to the fast forward button!), and what message this sends to them about girls, sex and relationships. My gut instinct tells me that it’s not a good thing – not for them, not for the girls and not for society at large.

This was in my mind as I considered the Spitzer situation. Society instinctually seems to understand that certain behaviors, while they seem relatively harmless from a peephole view, are bad for society because they lower people to some base element. Instead we should be continually striving to elevate ourselves above the base because ultimately this leads to a richer life and a better society.

So while I agree that certain drug use, and ‘victimless crimes’ like prostitution should be of the lowest priority, I am not willing to give up on trying to control them.

clowns
"Several times
a day for 10 days, he raped her.

I wonder whom those "liberals" would show compassion to."

"Liberals promote victimology but have little empathy for victims of crime - only empathy for thugs."

What nonsense. You're the ones who wouldn't spare one dime from your wallet to give the victim counseling or free medical care. After all, that would be *socialist*. Boo!!

Us "liberals" have a law up here that jails dangerous offenders indefinitely. That is not a conservative law where I live. Your strawmen and generalizations only point to your narrow mind.

"Is there even one of you who will take a stand and agree that people like him should be locked up forever?"

Yes. What a foolish ultimatum.

"I wonder how many of those liberals will call for the early release of [Matthew Shepard’s] murderers on the basis of showing compassion.”

Please, stop being so stupid. How many Mike Hukabee's will call for the early release of a *serial rapist*??

The stupidity and clownish views here are overwhelming.






They are insane
Liberal society refuses to lock up criminals and at the same time attempt to prevent the rest of us from defending ourselves.

Ever since DC banned handguns their crime and murder rate has been off the chart! However, Texas passed a concealed carry and their crime and murder rate significantly dropped....

"Between 1995 and 2004, handgun murders in Texas dropped by 18 percent. Gun owners proved to be much less likely than their peers to be arrested for non-violent crimes and violent crimes, including murder. And even though Texas (in 2004) had a population three million larger than when the bill was passed, the overall crime rate was lower in 2004-5,032 crimes per 100,000 Texans, as opposed to 5,478 crimes per 100,000."
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Concealed+carry+law+and+crim e+in+Texas-a0144563309

Crime doesn't pay?
Last September, a Utah man was stopped for driving 61 mph in a 40 mph zone.He argued about his speed and refused to sign the citation, and after he refused to put his hands behind his back, the highway patrolman shocked him with a taser. When he did not turn over on his stomach fast enough, he was shocked again. He did plead guilty and paid his fine in January--and filed a suit against the patrolman for "violating his civil rights". The patrolman was exonerated of criminal conduct by both county attorney general and the Utah Highway Patrol. Yesterday, the state Attorney General's office announced that the criminal would be paid $40,000.

You may have seen the shocking incident on YouTube.

"Criminals" are the true victims.
What Sowell fails to recognize is that when someone decides to engage in criminal behavior, that decision is actually society's fault.

Criminal acts are committed by victims of social abuse, and it is entirely improper to blame a helpless victim for their actions. Instead, the real cause of the criminal activity needs to be examined.

Society has an explicit obligation to ensure that every one of its members are happy, and too often we fail in our duty to guarantee that every citizen is as happy and materially rewarded as they feel they should be. Since the failing is due to our own lack of compassion, it is only proper that society pay the price whenever a misfit goes astray.

If a robbery, rape, or murder occurs, it is only a sign of our collective failure. We should not seek to punish the victim who was forced to commit a crime, but rather we should consider the damage caused by the poor soul as a sign that we need to try harder to make all citizens feel good about themselves. Thus, we should not seek to penalize the hapless criminal, instead we should thank them for punishing us for allowing them to go astray. Without their effort, we might otherwise become callous to the needs of the downtrodden among us.


criminals and the nytimes
As the nytimes is so concerned about these criminals, why doesn't the nytimes offer to take all of New York's criminals and add them to their payroll.

There are a number of positive outcomes possible here:

1. The reduction in prison poopulation.
2. Providing employment for those criminals released from prison.
3. When the criminals decide it's time once again to commit a crime, all they must do is find a non-criminal employee (though that may be more difficult than the nytimes will admit). Or, they will have immediate access to expensive equipment available for sale to pawn shops or fences. Just think, if enough equipment is stolen, and the nytimes must curtail their publications, there will be a major improvement in the quality of the news in this country.
4. With the current quality of the integrity of what the nytimes calls news, these new criminals may actually improve the quality of the output of the nytimes.
5. When a new crime is committed on the streets of New York, the police will have a significant percent of their suspects in one location.
6. With a large portion of crimes being committed within the confines of the nytimes, "street level" crimes should be substantially reduced.
7. When arrested, these career criminals will have a built-in alibi or access to the nytimes legal staff.

Once the nytimes has proven the viability of this concept, it could be quickly taken up and implemented by other "news" organizations.

Shefalai: Good idea about bad drivers
I personally think that bad driving is a high crime. Witness the unnecessary carnage on our highways. Unnecessary because it would so easy to save these millions of lives lost a year. A crime to drive badly because this is a choice people make.

I'm in favor of laws that would make it a severe crime to change lanes except to enter or exit a street; laws to bring down the maximum speed limit to 50 miles an hour on highways and 25 miles an hour on city streets. Also, people could not get learners permits to drive until they are 25 years old.

Wouldn't it be worth it to drastically, and I mean DRASTICALLY, cut the damage and pain caused to families by poor driving?

Surely poor driving costs Americans more money that all other crimes that Sowell might consider. More pain and suffering as well.

So, let's rationally attack the biggest problem we have and one that is accessible to solution.

Punishment
I first want to thank Dr. Sowell, I have learned many things from him.
When I was young my teacher net over to pick up an eraser. I promptly shot her in the rear with a "spitwad". I respected that teacher and learned more from her than I have anyone in my lifetime - but boys being boys. She escorted me to the Principal who spanked me with a paddle and then escorted me back to the classroom. Still sobbing I was made to apologize to the teacher and my classmates for the disruption and disrespect I had shown. The Principal drove me home that afternoon delivering me to my Father who promptly spanked me again. Then holding me in his lap I had to kiss him on the cheek and tell him I loved him - "worse than the spanking". He then delivered me to my mother and I knew what was next. She asked "what was your purpose in doing this?" "what did you accomplish?" Two questions she always asked, I always dreaded these questions because she could probe my mind like no other. Well, I got through the day but you can believe I never did that again!!!

Re: angryflower

“What nonsense. You're the ones who wouldn't spare one dime from your wallet to give the victim counseling or free medical care. After all, that would be *socialist*. Boo!!”

My, what an angry flower you are (at least you are angry, I don’t know about the flower part).

Conservatives are every bit as generous, if not more so, than liberals, so regurgitating liberal propaganda won’t help you here. Moreover, conservatives are trying to prevent people from becoming victims in the first place. But that kind of logic would be foreign to you.

To Proud Liberal
Insanity can be defined many ways. My view is that "sane people do not define reality as to what is in their minds - the only reality insane people have is what IS in their minds". Liberals are confused and distraught by facts that disagree with their minds view. I do agree that the human race has always been "infected" by those sub-humans whom pillage and rape society. There is nothing new under the sun. The real measure of us is how we deal with those thugs. Superficial compassion for thugs and no empathy for the victims, is in my view INSANE!! Liberal policies have a devastating effect on the poor and helpless. I remember a large athletic blackman in Philadelphia who organized a group of men to patrol the streets carrying baseball bats to drive out the drugdealers and pimps from his neighborhood. He was castigated by the press and demeaned by the liberals - his response was "I am speaking a language these thugs understand". I wish there were more like him.

Loyal Democrat
LOL

I see you are still in fine form...

Retired Geek
re: your school misbehavior....I'm sure a time-out, or no punishment at all would have been much more effective ("children must be free to express themselves").

Seriously, I grew up in Texas and I can definitely relate to your story. The vice-principal kept a hand-crafted "board of education" in his office that wasn't just for display purposes. But it kept the trouble down to only very minor disturbances.

My kids now go to school in MD (a "progressive" education system) and when I hear some of the things that go in their school it makes me shake my head.

Loyal democrat---
When a member of "your" family or your entire family is summarily beaten, robbed, tortured, raped and executed...get back to me on when you're inviting their murderer's to live with you. Go do a 24/7 prison ministry if your so compassionate for murderers. Try telling the 2 college girls families that were just murdered, how they are to blame for the killers murdering their young daughters.

'Justce', the liberal way.
Mark Hulett, 34, admitted in open court that he repeatedly and brutally raped a girl over a 4 year period, beginning when the girl was only 6-years-old. Vermont judge Edward Cashman, after hearing the graphic details of the horrible crimes that monster committed, sentenced the man to just 60 days in prison!

Andrew James had just been convicted of molesting a 4-year-old boy, and Vermont judge David Howard decided that the appropriate "punnishment" was just probation!

According to the left wing, it is the PERPETRATOR of the crimes who is the victim, and that they shouldn't suffer from the consequences of their horrible behavior.

Sound familiar? The entire left wing ideology is based upon removing consequences of folly.

Drop out of high school, and can't get a job? No problem, Democrats will hand you money to do nothing.

Sleep with everything with a heartbeat, and get knocked up? No problem, Democrats will give you a free abortion.

Commit every crime under the sun, then get caught by the cops? No problem, left wing judges will just toss you right back out on the street.

Who needs consequences when you can just elect Democrats to eliminate them for you?

"The Criminal Industrial Complex"...

One must consider the $ Billions spent on video-cameras and recorders by Hospitals, Retail, Police/Government, Schools, homes, etc. These Cameras are manned 24/7 in most cases. There are a million + security people being paid in addition to local police.

Add Car Alarms and anti-theft devices. Bars welded across every business and many homes in every major city ghetto.

Now add Insurance premiums for Home, auto, and business, for theft and violence. Add liability insurance for victims of crimes. Hospital bills and the psychological costs.

Crime costs an untold fortune. And the Democrats profit at every single stage of the game.

catscratch
It's satire.....but don't feel too bad, you're not the first to take the bait on one of LD's posts.

I actually think it's funny (or a little scary) that even the most over-the-top extreme lib satire is often confused as actual liberal thought.

Loyal Democrat: You say it so well
Here I am sputtering inarticulately day after day, trying to educate the conservatives on this site as to their true humanity and the obligations, thereupon, of right action, and you come along and say it so well, so blithely.

Truly, when we elevate the exigencies of The State above our own spiritual path in service to mankind we have lost our way, perhaps forever. Bless you.

Icedog
It may be satire but there are people who actually think that way, that's what scares me.

Loyal Democrat: You say it so well
Here I am sputtering inarticulately day after day, trying to educate the conservatives on this site as to their true humanity and the obligations, thereupon, of right action, and you come along and say it so well, so blithely.

Truly, when we elevate the exigencies of The State above our own spiritual path in service to mankind we have lost our way, perhaps forever. Bless you.

Crime and punishment
One thing I admired about the Taliban when they were in power was their public execution of drug dealers.

For those who posted in favor of making drugs legal, I would say that this would only encourage more drug use (and of harder substances), compound the problem that we already have with drunk driving, and add to the decay of our society. Thinking that legalizing drugs would turn violent drug-users into simple pan-handling stoners is absurd.


Gang Problems and Parents
Recently the local school had some gangs fighting between classes. It was "recruitment day" at the high school and the gangs were trying to impress the other kids with how good they were. The third time they started fighting the principal called the police and had them arrested.

One set of parents went to the school board. Their son should not have been arrested. He was only defending him self and his friends when they were attacked. Further, he NEEDED to belong to a gang since there were people out to get him and he needed help to defend himself when he was attacked. The school board made the principal appologize and promise to never do it again.

Costs of Crime
About ten or fifteen years ago I saw a report that stated that the average burglar did about $300,000 in thefts and damages a year. Of course he got a lot less than this when he fenced what he had stolen. It costs about $25,000 a year to keep him locked up. Since then, things have gone up. Take your pick.

Here in Texas they have just decided to send all drug crimnals to rehap for a couple of months rather than jail. It will save tons of jail space and costs! However, I've never seen rehab work unless the person wants it to. Further, there are a number of companies lining up to do the rehab for nominal fees of $5,000 plus when many companies do the same thing for less than a thousand.

Best laugh I've had in ages
Thank you, Loyal Democrat, for giving me a spot of levity and joy in an otherwise dreary topic.

Just a Serious Question
Is it me, or maybe our ever-present media, but there seems to be an acceleration of violent crimes against the very innocent recently? It also appears that those involved are always young males in their twenties. There appears to be a pattern of either mass killings or the murder, and possible rape, of young college age women.

These killers appear to be frustrated losers or mentally unstable individuals who are trying to prove their masculinity or importance by these violent acts. Some take their own lives, but there appear to be more killers basking in the publicity they receive. Many have years of un-treated mental illness, while others are mimicing the "gangsta" profile.

I am concerned that all of those HDAD prescription drugs being given to young boys to calm them down are beginning to show their long term impact on our society. I also believe, the next thing we are going to see are the long term effects of statins as people taking them for 15-20 years begin to realize mental and muscular degeneration problems.

Anybody else have any ideas of just what is going on?

Justice: the Liberal Way
beawulfe: I've another example for you. Two boys raped a girl in the unheated stairwell of a school in Minnesota a couple of years ago during class. The judge ruled that the girl had invited the rape since she was dressed sexily. She was wearing long johns, blue jeans, a shirt, and a sweater. When that was pointed out, he said it didn't matter; she was pretty. The boys were released without charges since it was the girl's fault.

The last I heard the people were trying to get rid of the judge. But he was appointed for life. I don't know if they got rid of him or not.

RE: 45caliber
"One set of parents went to the school board. Their son should not have been arrested. He was only defending him self and his friends when they were attacked. Further, he NEEDED to belong to a gang since there were people out to get him and he needed help to defend himself when he was attacked. The school board made the principal appologize and promise to never do it again."

I'm betting these very same nitwits would be the first to sue the city for failing to keep their kids safe when they end up blowing each other away over some silly gang turf squabble, too.

Crime violence
old progrmr:

The number of crimes is down. But the VIOLENCE of the crimes is way up! Even the older prisoners in the pens are afraid of the younger ones. The liberals keep quoting the lower number of crimes as a way to say that crime is under control and you don't need to worry. But the older prisoners say the reason it is down is because the normal criminals are afraid to do anything when gang members might be around. And the gang members believe that killing is the best way to go. I don't say that the ones doing the multiple killings lately are gang related but there are a lot of crazies out there too. One some years ago when captured said, "Did I break the record? I want to be famous too!"

RE: beowulfe
Personally I was annoyed that the principal didn't call the police the FIRST time they started fighting all over the school.

Angryflower
The views you see as clownish and foolish are called thus because they don't agree with the liberal vision.

Take the idea of "deadly weapons". There are none. Only deadly people that use weapons in their intent to kill or do harm.

A butcher knife in the hand of a chef is a tool. In the hand of criminal it is a deadly weapon.

Apply above sentiment to baseball bats, hatchets, drills, nail guns, screw drivers, bows and arrows, fencing epee's, dynamite, tnt, guns, etc.

They are tools. What the individual does with the tool matters.

That is individual responsibility, a major component of conservative thought.

Don't blame "deadly weapons."

Life without parole
This is a pile of crap.Twenty years down the road some governor would commute the sentence.If there is any chance they would be innocent,give them life if not fry them in a year

And yet another for you:
Vith Ly had been convicted of raping someone in 1990. After his final appeal in 1991 was turned down, no one told him he had to report to prison. Between all of the charges he had been convicted of, he was sentenced to over 20 years in prison. He had been again arrested in 1997 and 2001 for domestic abuse charges, yet still was not put in prison. He was again arrested in 2007 when, at a traffic stop, the cop ran a background check and found he failed to register as a sex offender as required by law.

Judge Hiller Zobel heard all this, and decided that this man's punnishment should be NO prison time whatsoever. He ruled that the man should be given credit for "time served while free", even on the NEW charges of failing to register as a sex offender.

Criminal minds
If any of you out there believe that the poor criminals are being mistreated, get a job as a prison guard and hold it for one year. Any state in the country will be GLAD to hire you! They can't get enough guards as it is. Then simply observe them in your daily work. If you don't fall in love with one of them quickly (many guards do, unfortunately, even if they are married) you will soon learn how they think. And none of them think like most of us to. By the time you finish your year (ususally your first month), I can promice that you won't feel sorry for any of them again.

And don't believe they are mistreated. Many love it in jail. As one said, "Why should I want out? I get three meals a day, a place to sleep, free clothes, a ho in the next bed, and I have you guards to wait on me!" And they don't have to think.

Most believe that everyone commits crimes on a daily basis, including you. You just haven't been caught yet. I had some tell me that. So they are just as good as everyone else; they are just unlucky. But next time they will do it smarter. Most are also con men. If you are cynical, like me, no problem. But if you believe their talk, you'll end up there too. One told a friend of mine years ago while they still allowed guards to access prisoner files that he was innocent. He was standing on a corner cleaning his fingernails with a knife when someone came along, stumbled and fell on the knife. My friend looked it up with the idea of helping an innocent man get freed. The victim fell on that knife over thirty times with at least four or five times straight through the heart. My friend no longer listens to their excuses.

Proud Liberal
Terrific idea! We can devote all our law enforcement resources toward absolute, 100% compliance with traffic laws. Police can spend their time monitoring redlights and on speed traps, knowing that sooner or later, people will stop speeding and slipping through red lights and stop signs if the penalties are draconian enough. Reduce limits to 40 on the main roads and 20 on all others.

As a matter of fact, let's mandate zero tolerance for speeding - 1 mph over the limit gets you a ticket and $1000 fine. If you repeat the offense, you go to jail. Three strikes you're out. No seat belt fastened, you've bought yourself a felony rap.

This is a true win/win for everyone. If it saves one more life it's worth it. People and society will be much safer. Insurance premiums will go down for everyone. The prisons can be full of traffic violators so the corrections industry can keep its business rolling. Cops will be happy - their arrest records and efficiency stats will soar and it's a lot easier to arrest a suburban little league dad for speeding than a violent criminal. Who will need lawyers because this is so objective, you can't argue with radar traps on every road, traffic cameras at every corner. Less gas will be used as a result of the slower speeds. And the predators and violent criminals who can be paroled to make room for the traffic felons will be free as wolves to ply their various trades. Sure, there may be more rapes, murders, armed robberies, serial killers. But overall, less people will probably die or be injured and society will benefit overall.

Is this a good idea or what?

beowulfe
"Andrew James had just been convicted of molesting a 4-year-old boy, and Vermont judge David Howard decided that the appropriate "punnishment" was just probation!"

Would you like to know who appointed the Vermont Judge Edward Cashman? It was the Republican governor, Richard Snelling.

I'm sure what you'll now say is that Richard Snelling and Judge Edward Cashman couldn't have been real Republicans, they must have been RINO's.

You see, your posts make it evident that you want to live in a fantasy world where the liberals' views are always wrong and the conservatives' views are always right. That way you don't need to ever do some serious debating or analyzing. You can simply believe that when something goes wrong, it must be the liberals' fault.

You need to wise up.

Re: Loyal Democrat
I hope this was satire. Anyway, there is a man on death row here in Texas who claims all this. He said it wasn't his fault that he shot his victim. He asked her to give her new car to him. When she refused, he had to shoot her so it was her fault. After all, he asked nicely and he deserved it. Another boy, not on death row unfortnately, kidnapped a teacher and drove her to the country and shot her. He said he had to shoot her since the car was his birthday present. If he hadn't shot her, she would have reported it stolen and the police would have taken his birthday present away from him.

Loyal Democrat
Exactly! This is the pablum the left feeds the public, but like everything they say, this is not the real reason they whine for the criminals.

The fact is that the revolving door justice system keeps them on the gravy train. When a criminal is in jail, he's not creating a case that the lib lawyers can make money on. If they aren't the high end lawyers being paid by the client or the mandated court appointment fees, there's the low end public defenders employed by the state.

Why no concern for the victim? How are they going to make any money off them? They're hardly a part of the money equation. What good are they?

For libs, this is simply business as usual.

Judge Cashman
It makes no difference who appointed this judge. He was wrong on this case. Most of the Judges who render judgments on these controversial cases are liberal judges who are soft on crime. Liberal judges are liberal judges no matter who appoints them.

We want judges to put sentences on these people that are fit for the crime. Rapists, pedophiles, etc. who do short time or are paroled to go do it again must not be let loose on our society.

Give any of these predators 20 years and make them serve 20 damn years. Make a life sentence mean that, a lift sentence. A life sentence which let a killer out in 30 years or less is not a life sentence. Either lock them up for life or execute them. Either way make sure they do not kill again.

It does not matter to me who appoints these idiots. If there record is that of being soft on criminals the do not put them on a higher bench.

RE: jax33
We had a man on death row for torture, rape, and murder. The governor commuted his sentence to life. He was out in a month for "time served". During the next six months it is estimated that he raped and tortured to death over fifty women before they caught him again. He was again sentenced to death. He commented when he went in, "I'm not worried. They will let me out again."

He was executed about a year and a half ago. I cheered.

syler
"Would you like to know who appointed the Vermont Judge Edward Cashman? It was the Republican governor, Richard Snelling.

I'm sure what you'll now say is that Richard Snelling and Judge Edward Cashman couldn't have been real Republicans, they must have been RINO's."

Vermont Republican. Nuff said.

"You see, your posts make it evident that you want to live in a fantasy world where the liberals' views are always wrong and the conservatives' views are always right."

Nope, but it is a pretty safe assumption, all else being equal.

"That way you don't need to ever do some serious debating or analyzing."

Says someone from the wing who shuts down debate by accusing the other side of "racism", or "bigotry", or "hating science".

"You can simply believe that when something goes wrong, it must be the liberals' fault."

Most of the time it is.

"You need to wise up."

You need to follow your own advice.

Insane generalizations
Thomas Sowell: " For more than two centuries, the political left has been preoccupied with the fate of criminals, often while ignoring or downplaying the fate of the victims of those criminals."

AudiR10: "And the lefties tell them (and us) that if we did not have the gall to have nice things in the first place, GrabbyBaby would not have hit us over the head and taken them."

beowulfe: "To those of us with a brain (read: NOT left wing), the link between the threat of punnishment for doing wrong and people doing less wrong is plainly obvious."

CW: "Yes, the deficiency of common sense among liberals is truly mind-boggling. They simply are incapable of equating action A with outcome B."

etc...

Stop! I can't take it anymore! My stomach hurts from laughing so much!

Your generalizations are just so insane. You honestly believe that all the world's evil comes from liberals and that conservatives are angels sent from heaven, don't you? Go ahead, live in your fantasy world while the rest of us try to deal with reality.

45cal
LD is a superb satirist, but more often than not, he's actually making the libs' case.

It isn't a stretch for them to make the case that the victim deserved to die and then make the case that the perp doesn't.

It's judicial jujitsu or legal whoremongering, whatever you prefer.

Another classic example of bad judges
There was a fifteen year old girl who was raped and stabbed to death. Beside her was a dead three year old she was baby sitting. The fifteen year old lived long enough to identify her killer. The police found him in his apartment trying to wash off her blood.

His defense in court? "I beat and raped a twelve year old. The judge gave me a suspended sentence so I didn't know it was a crime to rape and kill people."

Sad post, beowulfe.
beowulfe, you proved my point. You like to put everyone into neat little categories that make it easy for you to dismiss their ideas without having to do some serious thinking.

When did I ever call you a racist, bigot or science-phobic? I didn't. But, your naive mind wants to lump all liberals together. If you meet one liberal that has some far-flung ideas, then you assume that all liberals are like that.

Should I assume that all conservatives like to hang out in the men's bathroom with their legs spread out too far and their left hand waving under the stall? If I was as naive as you, I guess I would.

loyal democrat and angry flower
you posted: oh never mind --it's already been disregarded

Perfect Legal System
When you really get down to it, we have the most perfect legal system in the world. A criminal commits a crime. The police generally has him in a week or less. He gets a lawyer or one is appointed for him. It takes about two years before he is sentenced to prison. If he can make bail, he can generally do several more crimes during that time, which requires more trials. The trials keep the lawyers, the prosecutors, and the judges busy - and paid well. (Jurists are supposed to be proud of doing their part for almost free.) When he gets to prison, he gets out again in a short time on parole and starts the whole thing over again.

No wonder the lawyers are upset when one is shot by a citizen! The citizen just got rid of a large portion of their income! This legal system is perfect - for the lawyers!

beowulfe
Beautiful - especially the last thought. Why do the libs insist on identifying republicanism with conservatism. There are plenty of libs in the GOP which is one conservatism's major annoyances with the GOP.

Satire
I do not appreciate those of you who use so called satire to get responses from people.

There are enough actual liberals out there to stir the pot without you adding to the mix. How about pure honest debate without the game playing.

Just say what you mean and mean what you say. Us simple folk do not need the headach of tryig to determine what is so called satire and what is not.




syler
I don't believe everything that is bad is liberal.

I do know that a lot of liberal initiatives fall under the "Law of Unintended Consequences." See "New Deal" and Great Society" for a myriad of examples.

I don't believe that everything that calls itself or is blamed on conservatives comes from heaven.

I do know that the individual is responsible for his actions.

I also know that if you break the law, you suffer the consequences.

Conversely, if you don't like a particular law, petition to have it changed. If you want the Constitution changed, follow the process to do that.

Dear 45 caliber
The real criminal was the person who allowed this animal his freedom. What happened to him? I can guaran-damn-tee...nothing.
When will we hold these looney leftists responsible for their acts? Why hell, liberals want felons to have the right to vote.
If we were to get rid of all liberals in this country, crime would be down 50% OVERNIGHT!

Thomas Sowell was soooo right when he said that only a liberal would complain about the jails and prisons being full while citing that crime is down and not see the parallel.

Icedog
Almost every state's crime rate dropped during the same period, even ones without a concealed handgun law. You're simplifying the rules of economics if you attribute the drop in crime in Texas to concealed handgun laws.

45cal
"No wonder the lawyers are upset when one is shot by a citizen! The citizen just got rid of a large portion of their income! This legal system is perfect - for the lawyers!"

Or executed. We should have pay per view executions. I wonder if the libs would change their minds on executions if they were a successful form of entertainment and produced whole new sources of public revenue?

Gunnysez
'Thomas Sowell was soooo right when he said that only a liberal would complain about the jails and prisons being full while citing that crime is down and not see the parallel.'

I'm sure that Sowell doesn't mean they don't see it. Rather, there's no stupidity the libs won't try to float in order to create an alternative universe. Gulling enough people with there lies is the the coin of they're trade.

How Many Americans Can Liberalism Kill?
I believe, that given time and opportunity, liberals will embrace what ever form of government that gives them total control over all aspects of other peoples lives. In our day and age that is usually Communism.

What baffles me is that once liberals have achieved their communist nirvana, all the criminals that they work so vigorously to put back on the streets will be rounded up and either summarily executed, or incarcerated without benefit of trial or jury.

Liberals are unabashed apologists for countries like Cuba, North Korea and Venezuela where an accused person has no rights at all. Behavior, legal or not, that is not condoned by the state is punished without the slightest thought to compassion or fair play. Fidel Castro, Kim Jong Il and Hugo Chavez were all liberals at one time or another. So were Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Joseph Stalin, Mao Tse-Tung and countless liberal political murders.

Liberalism is a wicked and deceitful ideology. It targets traditional values and human decency in order to advance its deadly agenda. If that means putting criminals back on the streets to assault the citizens, well as far as liberalism is concerned, the end justifies the means.

Liberalism, where ever and however it is practiced is intolerant, malicious, selfish and eventually ... deadly.


CalVRWC
Interesting that you would bring up the Taliban in regards to drug policy enforcement. You're right, they executed drug dealers. But that's only part of the story. Those dealers executed were only responsible for about 5% of the opiates coming out of Afghanistan. The other 95%? That was coming from the Taliban and their buddies. The illegal drug trade was, and is, funding both the Taliban and the terrorist organizations they were harboring. The illegal drug business also funds the FARC in Columbia and the drug lords sending all those 'mules' across our southern border. Now you legalize those drugs, regulate and tax them, and have say, Phillip Morris involved in the business, and the Taliban might not be getting those funds. You might actually be able to make an argument that the War on Drugs helps to fund our enemies in the War on Terror.

Doug...
"And one more thing: You haven't done your homework. In the Netherlands, where pot is legal, a lower percentage of the population lights up than in America, where it's not."

Doug: Try looking more deeply into the statistics. Your statement is akin to someone reading the first paragraph of a story and then spouting off claiming to know all the details.

While you may think that use is lower in the Netherlands than in the US, here are the internals to your claim:

"Drug abuse has increased in the Netherlands. From 1984 to 1996, marijuana use among 18-25 year olds in Holland increased twofold. Since legalization of marijuana, heroin addiction levels in Holland have tripled and perhaps even quadrupled by some estimates."


Adman...
"There are economic benefits to legalizing drugs as well as the social benefits."

I'm not certain what you are pertaining to with your statements, though I recognize that you're just as guilty of not really finding anything factual to back up your debunked claims:

The increasing use of marijuana is responsible for more than increased crime. It has widespread social implications as well. The head of Holland’s best-known drug abuse rehabilitation center has described what the new drug culture has created: The strong form of marijuana that most of the young people smoke, he says, produces “a chronically passive individual—someone who is lazy, who doesn’t want to take initiatives, doesn’t want to be active—the kid who’d prefer to lie in bed with a joint in the morning rather than getting up and doing something.”

We're having enough trouble with unmotivated children who would prefer to sit in front of the xbox all day rather than getting out and really doing something productive with their lives (but then again, look at their parent(s), they just pacify their children instead of really interacting, teaching, and raising them). Gee, let's throw legal drugs in the mix, what's the result? Children addicted to chemicals in addition to video signals. Just what this country needs.






tunneler
You mention digging deeper into the statistics, and from what I can find, that '18-25 year olds' statistic is the only one I can find that shows negative results of the NED drug policy vs. ours. What I can't seem to find is what the USA's rate was during that same time. Or what the overall numbers are. The numbers I find seem to show almost 2-1 usage rates (US 2- NED 1), in both lifetime and past month usage stats for marijuana and almost 3-1 when it comes to heroin. If you could direct me to your source, I would love to take a look at it. As far as the social ills that you describe, is it any different now? Kids are getting their hands on drugs much more easily than they are liquor, which I would find difficult to argue has any social benefits either. Maybe if we regulated drugs the way we do liquor we actually stand a chance of keeping this stuff out of kids’ hands. Let me make it clear, drugs are BAD. But so is our current drug policy which puts money in the hands of smugglers and terrorists instead of doing what it’s supposed to, keep kids off drugs.

Bobaz
"What baffles me is that once liberals have achieved their communist nirvana, all the criminals that they work so vigorously to put back on the streets will be rounded up and either summarily executed, or incarcerated without benefit of trial or jury."

You are dead wrong. If you look at the history of Communism, unconfined to anyone country, the one group that was truly looked upon with favor under that system was the criminal classes. They could always be depended on to carry out the most brutal measures without the slightest pang of conscious and therefore were very useful.

These are truly the type of people communists can do business with.

Liberals
It's amazing how well you posters on here understand the liberal mindset. I mean, we ARE insane/delusional/liar/cheats/commies. You're exactly right! All the time! (probably what your parents kept telling you growing up, eh?)

By the way, boards such as this are very productive. You guys come in here and share all your great ideas, pat each other on the back, and tell each other "liberalism causes everything wrong in the world." Doesn't it ever occur to you: Geez, we controlled the House, Senate, and POTUS for 6 years and all we got was a lousy war and some tax cuts (didn't even get a t-shirt!).

After reading how much Spitzer
pays for prostitutes,It's obvious to me why It's illegal.There's a fortune to be made from its prohibition.It's the same deal with drug prohibition.Gangs and criminals are reaping outrageous profits which wouldn't exist if drugs were legal.It's also so wrong that the CIA can set up cocaine dealers to fund Contra rebels in Nicaragua.The drugs are everywhere,kids grow up around it.The way things are ,people that get caught don't stand a chance and those that do not can run for and be elected President of the United States.

Grubby, An Astute Observer
Grubby, you are absolutely right. Nicely done.

CW
writes, "So while I agree that certain drug use, and ‘victimless crimes’ like prostitution should be of the lowest priority, I am not willing to give up on trying to control them."

I am not either. I prefer for such things to remain social mores and not criminal statutes. I think Spitzer should be hounded from office, forced to resign in disgrace and slither away but, I do not think he should be incarcerated for his behavior.

Those Who Support Early Release
I see these ACLU types who claim that incarceration terms are to long and therefor cruel. Well then the those who are released early should stay in the homes of supporters of early release.

When this happens I'll agree with them.

The Great Patriot
I think you misspelled your name. Should be "Grate" I think. And unfortunately, you're right. Today's "Republican" politician's have been beaten down so badly, they have morphed into Dems pandering to get the vote through "compassion" and "fairness" at the expense of "frugality" and "justice" all in the supposed attempt at saving that one baby in the bath water. So we "compassionately" filter out the unfortunate while handing towels to the recalcitrants asking them to dry themselves off and please don't get wet again. And then we demand a Congressional investigation on waterboarding just in case that was how they got wet. Not by their own sociopathic actions but because of waht someone else did to them when they were babies. . . in bath water.

To Loyal Democrat
Oh, who could say it better?

You missed something this time, though. Didn't you intend to add something about imprisoning the so-called "victims"?

crime
As a peace officer for 18+ years and a former narcotics detective. In my expirience the simple fact of LAZYNESS dominates the criminal element. Everyone is expecting a handout. They want things in the quick and easy way. Hard work and pride doesn't exist. It's always a handout. If there is no handout, the criminal element will just "take it" from honest people. I see rampant use of marijuana and a care free attitude. Money is spent on cars, shoes, and appearance. There is no pride and compassion.

BPDnarc
I guess it's hard to keep a job while pot makes people too lazy to work. Have to steal and kill to survive. Damn those potheads!

/idiot

The problem
is one of morality, its not education, criminals are immoral people who practice their immorality to great degrees than law-abiding people. They are only acting out of self-interest and believe they are entitled to whatever they want. They need to be locked up because they choose not to act in a civil manner. They choose their behavoir. As for they liberal that cry and coddle criminals, they are just certifiable, these fruitcakes are the same ones that cry and want to understand and hold hands with terrorist.

There used to be a time when
my rights ended where yours began. In other words, as long as my behavior didn't impinge on your rights (e.g, blast my stereo while you were trying to sleep) or put somebody else in danger, we had free rein to do as we pleased.

If I chose to get drunk on a Saturday night (in the safety of my own home), I was okay. But if I had a bong-hit -- well, now, I'm deserving of prison time.

Is that a cigarette?

Is that a shot?

Is that a Big Mac?

/meanwhile, your unruly child will be forced to eat psychotropic drugs, whether or not you want it -- the school nurse recommended it, and if you don't comply, you will be prosecuted for child endangerment...

Pro-druggies say:
"I DO have sympathy for a friend sitting in front of his own house smokin’ a joint – followed by a year in jail for smokin’. The only violence ever displayed by a casual weed user was the manner in which they dived into munchies. Yet, the costs of incarceration for a murderer vice weed user are all balled up in the total. Just like the other misleading statistics on the rising crime rates."

Quit making up statistics. Who gets a year for smoking a joint? Who gets arrested in their home unless they're a dealer? And what about the other drugs? What about people who drive on them? People don't just do drugs in the safety of their own homes. They go out and sometimes kill people while they're just being a "harmless" drug user.

CT
"And what about the other drugs?"
- You mean, like, alcohol and prescription medications

"What about people who drive on them? People don't just do drugs( drink ) in the safety of their own homes. They go out and sometimes kill people while they're just being a "harmless" drug user ( drunk drivers ) ."

No statistics necessary. Alcohol legal, drugs not. Prohibition didn't work with alcohol and, unfortunately, hasn't worked with drugs. So let's stop shipping money to the Taliban, FARC, and Mexican druglords and get serious about addressing the real issue of addiction and drug abuse. Alcohol, drugs, gambling, prostitution, all of these things drive people to their worst and ruin lives, there is no arguing there. But making all of them illegal didn't work, so why some but not others. If you're really honest about personal responsibility, let people make their own choices as long as it doesn't invade your home and your life. Once it crosses that line, whatever they're addicted too, have at'em.

It goes beyond the alternatives
One day felon's will be allow to vote. The Democrats one day will see to that. It's not without good reason that the Democrats cares so much about those behind bars. To the Democrats, those are potential voters who will remember the day, when they will be able to vote in elections, and pay back the Democrats for being there for them. Those who have fallen victim to those behind bars aren't much of a concern to the Democrats, because they can't vote anymore due to the fact their not with us anymore, so why should the Democrats show any interest at all in the victims of these felons. Democrats don't look at felons, the way other American's do. Instead they see an untapped source of voters, who could be persuaded to vote the Democrat way, if the Democrats keep pushing for the felons right to vote one day.

One exeception
There is one group of people who the liberals see as true criminals (other than conservatives and republicans in general). These people are more dispicable than any ax-murderer, and that would be tax-evaders.

But
1 in 100 Americans are behind bars. Does this sound like a solution? It sounds like a major Social Problem! When that many Americans are being housed in Jails/Prisons, we Americans need to wake up and make some major changes to the direction our Society is moving!! We need to return to a more absolute society. The if it feels good do it mentality has bred this total disregard for laws and doing what is right. We Need to move closer to God, but all we are doing is running as fast as we can the other way! Religion is too restrictive, too absolute, too judgemental, etc etc Well when a society drops the Moral Compass Religion provides this is exactly what you get! So guess Americans just wants to keep on paying 30k annually to house these folks instead of putting Bible and Pray back in Schools. More Power Too You!

Florida
So if most of America converts to Islam, the crime rate will plummet.
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