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Tuesday, February 19, 2008
Thomas Sowell :: Townhall.com Columnist
'Supporting the Troops'
by Thomas Sowell
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The Berkeley city council has made national news by telling Marine Corps recruiters that they are unwelcome in that bastion of the academic left.

It is a shame that Berkeley is not on some island in the South Pacific, because then they could be given their independence and left to defend themselves.

As it is, members of our armed forces who put their lives on the line to defend America are also defending people like too many in Berkeley for whom the very word America, and the American flag, bring only sneers.

Unfortunately, Berkeley is not unique. A professor at Harvard who put an American flag on his car after 9-11 provoked looks of astonishment from his colleagues. They wondered what was wrong with him.

All across the country, there are professors who push for keeping military recruiters off campus and for banning ROTC. Apparently if they don't like the military, then other people -- such as students -- should not be allowed to make up their own minds whether they want to join or not.

Liberals in general, and academics in particular, like to boast of their open-mindedness and acceptance of non-conformity. But they mean not conforming to the norms of society at large.

They have little or no tolerance to those who do not conform to the norms of academic political correctness. Nowhere else in America is free speech so restricted as on academic campuses with speech codes.

In Berkeley, as elsewhere, the left has learned to cloak their anti-military intolerance with the magic words, "We support the troops." The liberal media use the same line when they undermine the military.

In this, as in other things, the flagship of the media is the New York Times. Unsubstantiated charges against American troops in Iraq are front page news but incredible acts of heroism in battle are seldom reported there, if at all.

Although things go wrong in every war, things that went wrong in Iraq -- whether large or small -- have been front page news in the New York Times. But when the military surge was followed by things going right, the Iraq war was suddenly no longer front page news.

Back during the Vietnam war, the media criticized the American military for their emphasis on enemy casualties or "body count." Today the media have been fixated on American body count.

What has been accomplished by the troops who lost their lives in battle has been of no interest to those who claim to be "supporting the troops."

That thousands of Iraqis who fled the country during the height of the violence and turmoil are now returning is no big deal to the media.

Those in the military who made this possible by putting their own lives on the line are not heroes to the media. Indeed, one of the consistent patterns in the liberal media has been to depict the troops not as heroes but as victims.

The financial problems of some reservists who were called away from their civilian jobs were front page news in the New York Times. So were sorrowful goodbyes from family and friends.

All these things made the troops victims. So does body count.

Just last month, the New York Times found yet another way to portray the troops as victims. They ran a very long article, beginning on the front page of the January 13th issue, about killings in the United States by combat veterans returning from Iraq and Afghanistan.

"In many of those cases," it said, "combat trauma and the stress of deployment" were among the factors which "appear to have set the stage for a tragedy that was part destruction, part self-destruction."

As with so many other things said by liberals, the big question that was not asked was: Compared to what?

As the New York Post reported a couple of days later, the murder rate among returning military combat veterans is one-fifth that of civilians in the same age brackets.

So much for "supporting the troops" by depicting them as victims.

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About The Author
Thomas Sowell is a senior fellow at the Hoover Institute and author of The Housing Boom and Bust.
 
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NYT Would Sell Out Their Mother
If it hurt conservatives in general, and Gw (who is not really that conservative) and the Boys, in particular. It seems to me, they have lost touch with reality. If they had their way, America would be under Sharia Law, by now , and they would, probably, have been executed, with most of their liberal conspir... I mean, cohorts.

I'm sorry but
it is impossible to support the troops without supporting what they are doing as well. If you support the troops, you support their mission and honor their sacrifices. It doesn't take a college education to figure that out. In fact it takes at least a masters degree to find a way to dissemble like this.

Save the Rain Forest!!
Stop reading the New York Times. It is environmentally unsound to read the Times. The amount of trees destroyed for this newspaper is unacceptable. Reduce your carbon output and footprint. Think about the power needed to print the paper, as well as what the arsenic and color in the ads does to the ground water. Also, the carbon monoxide created by the delivery trucks. Beware, it also turns you against your country and your mind to mush.

Thank you Dr Sowell
Scotty; ITA

I liked the sign in the photo that accompanied this article.

Berkeley Council
-the Few
-the Proud
-the Insane

Heaven is near
NY Times and MSM hatred of GW and the Iraq war know no bounds. With the election of BO I'm sure that nurvanna will be at hand. Think of the great change that will occur with the Islamic world becoming our bestest buds and BO making sure everyone with any malady whatsoever is treated at the Mayo clinic. Truly heaven on earth is very near and you can read all about it in NY Times. They won't have to dig up the worst stories they can find about our troops because we'll be invading Pakistan on BO's orders. Then they can report some heroic deeds indeed!

Wanna build a fence?
Build one around Berkley and quarantine them from the rest of the country. No trade, no protection, no Federal support. Their chief source of income would be charging admission, much like the zoo, from curious folks who wish to view their behavior from behind the fence.


Military in Berkeley
Presumably anyone smart enough to get into UC Berkeley is smart enough to locate the downtown recruiting office if he or she wants to join up. Giving the military an on-campus presence has nothing to do with providing convenience to students. Conservatives complain that putting gay characters in TV sit-coms is part of an agenda to "normalize" homosexuality. How about putting the military on campuses is part of an agenda to normalize the military, normalize war?

You people who scream and faint at the thought that free dental care might be provided to the children of the poor are the first to demand more and more and more benefits for the military. Google "military pay". Google "recruitment retention bonus". In addition to base pay we are paying extra for meals, housing, hardship duty, hazardous duty, even for knowing a foreign language (up to $12K a year extra for foreign language proficiency). As for recruitment and retention bonuses, the Pentagon spent over $1 billion (with a B) just in 2006, payola to lure people in and then get them to keep doing a job they volunteered for (on condition, of course, of being paid extremely well. Not to mention lifetime medical care, life insurance, and many more perks of the job.) Money talks; ideology walks.

I can hear it now: "This is little enough for those who are defending us". Baloney. I know a man who receives full military disability, free medical care, and life insurance, and got a $50K no-questions-asked allowance to remodel his apartment. His disability is multiple sclerosis, not service connected. His service: one year in Paris, France. His job in the military: dentist. He brags that the only combat he ever saw was on the ski slopes of Switzerland.

I applaud Berkeley for excluding these mercenaries from campus. They don't belong there.

Excluding Recruiters
I assume Berkeley receives tax dollars. If so, then they have no right denying the government access to the campus. If allowed, then any group that is not in favor with the university elite can be excluded. Oh, wait. That is already happening to conservatives.

Isn't it interesting that circulation is down at the NY Times. Layoffs in the news industry all around us. What could possibly be the reason? How about people understanding they are reading the American version of Pravda. Remember the old TASS news agency? Censored news about the West. Always depicting the USA in unfavorable terms so they could fool the masses. I don't see a difference between them and the NY Times, Wash Post, LA Times etc. etc.

Dr. Sowell, everyone needs to follow the advice of your colleague Walter Williams. He has a saying that goes something like "The only sound a university president understands is the sound of a wallet snapping shut". Stop sending money to your alma maters! You are supporting a left wing system that is anti-american. It is not the university you remember!

USMC in Purgatory aka Berkeley, PRep.
There are sayings and truisms about what happens when good people stand by and do nothing. This is so true in this particular case. This version of insanity in Berkeley has been allowed to fester and spread, and now it has taken a path no one ever conceived.

And to think these people boast of their educational (enlightened) background. The lesson is, educated does not mean anything, for someone to understand, one must learn, and therein lies the difference.

Actually, I hope the people's commissars who run the City Of Berkeley, continue to find other ways to be stupid. It serves as an example to all of the rest of us, what not to do. If you can't teach your children what is right, then by all means show them what is wrong, what better example than this.

Correction
Sorry, I confused Cal-Berkeley with the city Berkeley. However, the arguments remain the same.

Lilly. Are your serious? Mercenaries? I can only assume your view of the military is held by many on the Left. So when Democrats say the support the troops what you are really saying is: "We have to say this to fool everyone or we would be run out of office".

NY Times & War Deaths
From the AP, "As of Saturday, Feb. 16, 2008, at least 3,961 members of the U.S. military have died since the beginning of the Iraq war in March 2003, according to an Associated Press count. The figure includes eight military civilians. At least 3,225 died as a result of hostile action, according to the military's numbers." It seems to me far too often that the radical left,including the NY TIMES, and democrat leadership use these totals as a means just to stir resentment of the republicans and those who support the war. I say this because in a time of relative peace the democrats cut the military budget drastically, including benefits to military men and their families, and attempted to block the military's ability to vote during the 2000 election, i.e absentee ballots. Their concern now, when they weren't concerned before, seems disingenuous. Preventing recruitment on college campuses both before & during the war, Operation pink in Berkeley, constant defeatist attitudes while our military is engaged in combat, just to name a few. To me, their concern is politically motivated. Why? Let's look at some other numbers.From 2003 to 2006, there were 5,552,254 violent crimes committed in the US. During that time, there were 66,450 murders, 375,774 rapes and 3,429,484 aggravated assaults.
From 2003 to 2006, the NHTSA reported vehicular deaths totalling approximately 171,652. Of that number, approximately 67,200 were caused by drunk driving.
From 2003 to 2006, there were 212 law enforcement officers feloniously killed in the US.The men and women of the military are now on the front lines fighting islamic fanatics bent on our destruction. For those who died, they did so protecting our country and taking the fight to the enemy. They did so with honor.
I would suggest that the dems and the media focus on solving some problems at home, so that when our brave men and women come home, they are not needlessly killed in our cities or on our streets.



-lilly
If Berkeley takes fed $ ......
of course that can be fixed. ;)

Berkeley, Left-Wing Minions & Lilly
For some time now I've listened to these cretins criticize our military and other than the obvious argument that they move to a better continent they don't. These fair weather Americans-I call them, continue to point out the faults of our great nation, I have to admire their consistency, they continue to stay here and won't ever leave, but every now and then I envision some of these left-wing minions especially people like "LILLY" in odd places like Iran, Sudan or Somalia, I would give anything to observe "LILLY" living in Iran and criticizing Ahamadinejad or Hassan Nasrallah or just posting on a comparable website like Townhall, her displeasure in their recruitment policies at college campuses. I would love to be a fly on the wall when she googled Hezbollah military pay that would make my day.

Lilly...
You do know that all it takes to get into Berkeley U is just one interview. If you say yuo hate America and have excellent flag-burning skills then you are in.

And don't go off on a limb about health care. No one is buying what you are hucking.

Thomas Sowell is Clueless
The troops in Iraq are victims in two ways that the media has been quick to point out. The lessons learned have come from the Vietnam War, but have not been applied by the right-wing and neocon policy makers and war mongers. First lesson, the policy makers should not get us involved in needless conflicts in which US survival is not directly involved. Second, should we get involved in such a conflict, there should be a quick exit strategy. Wars should be fought quickly, in and out, to minimize casualties and deaths. The longer we stay in a conflict with no end in sight and no certainty of victory, the more demoralizing it is on the troops. The world’s oldest military treatise, The Art of War by Sun Tzu, makes this abundantly clear. The media is just giving us the rates of desertion, suicide, family abuse, and criminality of the returning troops as indicators of troop morale. So yes, Thomas Sowell, “support the troops,” but hold those who sent them to war and are clueless as to what to do next, accountable. Chaka Z.


To Cyclist
If a state-funded university "has no right to deny government access to the campus", then theoretically that government can decide to take over the Chemistry Department and convert its use to making bombs. Or take over the Biology Department and change "evolution" to "Book of Genesis". Or take over the Administration Office and decide to omit applicants of a given race.

Townhall is interesting tonight. There's one thread saying that the military should not be subject to United States law and another one saying that the government should be free to commandeer a university and divert its purpose. You people were born too late and in the wrong place. Try Germany circa 1938.

Reply to Cyclist
Yes, mercenaries. I stand by that. 1) We are being used by other nations that don't want to risk their own young men. What we get for it depends on the political makeup of the US at the moment since here we use "the glory of war" for political advantage, and other countries know this very well. I remember a TV program during the First Gulf War that showed wealthy Kuwaitis literally sitting out the war in the cafes of Europe, letting Americans fight for their country---for them. They're not stupid.

2) We are compensating our volunteer military with salary, perks, bonuses, and benefits far beyond any pay scale I have ever heard of. Do some googling and take notes. The American public is not being informed about the actual cost of our military. We start by paying a salary to the high school kid who signs up but wants to graduate; he gets paid per month. The options for getting recruitment bonuses is too long and complex to fit here, look it up yourself. Retention, same thing. Meanwhile we pay them extra for EVERYTHING. A soldier volunteers to be a soldier but gets paid extra for going where it's dangerous, for handling dangerous materials, for parachuting out of an airplane. My husband, who was drafted out of college in WWII, got paid $20 a month. So did his brother, a Navy CPO who got blown off the bridge when his ship was torpedoed. No extra hazard pay. My uncle didn't get hazard pay to hold a radio tower in the South Pacific jungle, alone because everybody else was dead, for so long that he came back crazy and spent the rest of his life in a VA hospital. Military service was not so luxurious then.

My hat's off to the bravest
I want to start by saying that the men and women that volunteer are my heroes. My son is one and listening to him there doesn't seem to be many that have this feeling of disillusionment that Chaka refers to. He seems like the type that would stand by and watch his neighbor being robbed because it's not his problem. And most of our wars should not have been fought because they took too long. Lilly is another issue entirely. She knows a guy (probably knows a guy that knows a guy that is married to a girl that works with a guy that heard of someone) that is getting all of these perks while everyone in her family had to actually fight. I assume everyone but we don't know about her husband except he was drafted. He could have been the soldier that Gen. Patton slapped. It seems, however, that she has not heard of the many service families receiving food stamps to get by since she thinks they're just getting rich. My son, evidently, got into the wrong branch because he will be only be getting extra pay while deployed. Not for EVERYTHING. He has had the chances for money, however. He passed up a request to apply to West Point because he said he can't lead until he has seen what the ground soldier has gone through. We need more of them and fewer of the whiny, "I-could-plan-it-better", complainers back home. By the way, you might want to know that there were around 7,500 military died during the Clinton years compared to the approx. 10,000 under GWB while we have been fighting a real war for a good reason.
http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RL32492.pdf

chaka zulu
How long have you had your head in the sand?

Our survival & that of the west is indeed why we are fighting.
The intent of muslims is to rule the world, just as they have stated, and teaching their first graders the importance of that goal.

The MSM & socialists party hacks are playing a very very dirty game of politics.
And, they rely on morons like you.

So America's # 1 Air Thief, 'Lilly'
... leader of T-H's subversive and frequently treasonous un-and-anti-Americans, is old enough to have in-laws who served in WW-II.

Thank G-d for that and that her malignant mouth and the rest of her'll soon be mostly methane.

And that the air she is presently stealing will be available for an actual American.

Does Bush care about the troops?

Bureaucrats’ “Gross Mismanagement” Blamed For Hundreds Of Marines’ Deaths

Does Bush care about the troops?

HP-Hundreds of U.S. Marines have been killed or injured by roadside bombs in Iraq because Marine Corps bureaucrats refused an urgent request in 2005 from battlefield commanders for blast-resistant vehicles, an internal military study concludes.

The study, written by a civilian Marine Corps official and obtained by The Associated Press, accuses the service of “gross mismanagement” that delayed deliveries of the mine-resistant, ambush-protected trucks for more than two years.

Cost was a driving factor in the decision to turn down the request for the so-called MRAPs, according to the study. Stateside authorities saw the hulking vehicles, which can cost as much as a $1 million each, as a financial threat to programs aimed at developing lighter vehicles that were years from being fielded.

READ MORE

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/bureaucrats-gross- mismanagement-blamed-for-hundreds-of-marines-deaths



Black & White Brian at 6:01

What you said !!!!!!!

War is an ugly thing, but not the uglies
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.

My Dear Lilly,
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."

A message for you and the Berkley City Council from John Stuart Mill.Be sure to pass it on to them.

The Joy of doing something Big

I think the troops are brave, dedicated and admireably courageous and they love doing something this big and this meaningful.

We can help them, support them and take joy in their accomplishments. Thank God we at least have the ability to tell of their successes.

Silly lilly tips her hand
And unknowingly informs us she's not only an anti-American but hates another group of people.

In his/her "Reply to Cyclist" post he/she states:

"We are being used by other nations that don't want to risk their own young men."

What nation could that be? Could he/she be more specific? Maybe it's the JEWS, lilly? Damn those NeoCons!

Lilly's ranting
Keep on task and stay on focus.

Dr Sowell's post is about the Berkeley city council's attempt to keep Marine recruiters off campus and not about what you might have been told by a dentist who might have been in the military or what other demographic needs dental care or any of the other silly rants you make.

As you have pointed out money allocated for one purpose can always be spent elsewhere. Thankfully some members of Congress are have recognized that recent "earmarks" to Berekely can be spent elsewhere are on the path to redirecting them.

Berkeley Fascists
These are the fascisti you and Jonah Goldberg have spoke of lately. Berkeley sounds like the "American Protective League" that I have been reading about under Woodrow Wilson (D) in Jonah's article.

The progressive liberal fascists have crept into every facet of life here in America from art to education to local communities and stomped on freedom. (I'd say they still are and have learned their lessons well from Stalin and Hitler).

We should(Congress) should cut off funds immediately to the University and the city of Berkeley and any other place that practice this sort of gag on freedoms.

Lilly

Lilly is going into the weeds of getting other Nations to stand up and carry their responsabilities. It is frustrating to be sure. I actually agree that in the right venue, that should be an ongoing conversation. It just isn't pertinant to this article. Nor frankly were mine.

(tr)
The last retreat of a liberal, name calling , I see . Dr Sowell is in good company with Doctor Rice and General Powell in being accused of being Uncle Tom's,, house slaves, or the subhect of Oliphnat's cartoond.

I think Lilly
is a TH plant to elicit passion from their readers. Her remarks are so over the top and so outrageous, she is laughable.

She can't possibly be for real.

Name calling
The only retreat of a liberal.

It must be terrible to be
a liberal, callow, self hating, not having any core beliefs that you would be willing to fight and die for.

Save a tree or an owl or a whale but work hard to have the "right" to murder a child in the womb.

Not have the guts to defend your country or even to recognize the danger that islamos pose to it, but then have the temerity to say you support the troops while attempting to ban them from an American city and decry the benefits afforded them for putting their lives on the line for the rest of us.

Do you think the troops appreciate you, are you THAT naive?
They despise you, but they defend you because THEY love this country.

We pay them as well as we can because there is no other way to say, thank you.


fascists
The Marine detachment CO should have responded as an American general did in another war, in another place , in another time, when he was surround by another group of fascists and asked to surrender.
"Nuts"

To Lilly
Lilly, you are the maggot that feeds on the flesh.You disseminate rubbish. I belong to a Veterans of Foreign Wars Post.

I know of many vets that have to fight to get "bennies", as you would call them.

In the service you get a pay salary

Yes, you get "extra" pay for hazardous work.

Not all military do the same job with the same risks.
Combat pay is extra. (combat being the operative word)
Jumping out of a plane is extra. ( jump from a good plane?)

Won't take the time and space to answer all your junk.

As for your being a maggot, You are being protected by the same people you despise.
When massive floods or what ever hits, the National Guard is there.(if the governor asks, N.O.?)
If they weren't, you'd be the first to scream for help.
They, and the regular Army (etc.) Protect us from adversaries.

And yes they get paid for it.

As a PROUD veteran of Viet Nam, you and your ilk make me sick to be in the same country as you.
Do move to a better place if you don't like it here. ( Moscow ?)


berkley is smart
Think about how smart Berkley really is?

These cowards, yes Lily, are trying save their own hide and also take the moral high ground.

Once the federal government announced that they would try to ban federal funds from their city they scattered and changed their tune.

Boy, you talk about weak!

When the going gets tough, look for Berkley and those of their ilk to surrender first.


(tr) writes:
"yeah, i called him by his name."

Oh really?

Didn't know Dr. Sowell was your relative.

Liberal...

(tr)
The present conflict you don't like. OK.

Do you think the Chinese are spending Billions of dollars on military hardware for nothing? You my friend (sic) are the naive one.


To TH readers
I am sorry to have gotten caught up in the moment. Got off topic.

tr
have a nice day I would call you a pus but that might upset your PETA buddies. But we will save you from the (pus). Maybe thats your problem you arent getting any (pus) but dont harm the (pus)(tr)

Disgusting Lilly
"You people were born too late and in the wrong place. Try Germany circa 1938."


You and your degenerate, pampered, spoiled butt know NOTHING about 1938 Germany. You know NOTHING about 1938 Russia. The reason I can say this confidently is because the Nazi and Communist foes America and its freedom-loving allies fought and defeated, the same foes who imprisoned my dad and slaughtered all of his high school classmates, were exactly like you - intolerant, narrow minded, ignorant, cruel and vicious. Reading your excruciatingly uninformed rantings daily reminds me that the wrong people died in Hitler's concentration camps.

(tr)
No, thanks to congress, both Dems and repubs for their spending. The "war" should be somewhat paid for by the Iraq government, at least in part. I have always felt that.

Robert, aka "Frobusto"
Re: "Thissupport actually cost lives" (sic)

You forgot to say it is all Bush's fault - but I'm sure we only have to wait for one of your many follow-up rants.

(tr)
Unbelievable...

Check out your subject line in your 8:20 post (while it's still here) and then ponder why you are always getting booted from Townhall.

Grow up, for gawd's sake, would you?!

tr
No thank you Im straight

Primus54
Dont worry Ive been called worst by GAY LIBS before. This person wantr last long on TH

(tr)
The word Nazi literally translated means:"National Socialist Party". People like you love to depict Hitler as some far right wing extremist but socialism is not a conservative idea. It is, in fact, a liberal (failed) ideal that exists to this day in the democrat party. If words are to mean anything than Hitler was a liberal. However, as with everything else, words and history and reality are irrelevant to you liberals.

for lilly
Lilly writes: "I can hear it now: 'This is little enough for those who are defending us'. Baloney. I know a man who receives full military disability, free medical care, and life insurance, and got a $50K no-questions-asked allowance to remodel his apartment."

Well, here are some others for you. This website is a memorial listing the American women who have been killed in action in Iraq:

http://tinyurl.com/2o44ts

Tell me, how much are the lives of these female, uh, "mercenaries" (as you put it) worth? Do you think these women were overpaid before they were blown to bits by enemy IEDs and mortars, some at the ripe old age of 20?

hey lilly
Why don't YOU pay for dental care for the 'poor'?

Because you want to be 'compassionate' with other peoples money and labors. We call that theft.

You do know that in Britain the 'do it at home dental kits' are becoming quite popular. But hey just because rationing and lowered quality is what happens EACH AND EVERY TIME it is implemented elsewhere doesn't mean it won't work out great here right?

Leftists are reality-deniers.

for lilly
lilly claims: "If a state-funded university 'has no right to deny government access to the campus', then theoretically that government can decide to take over the Chemistry Department and convert its use to making bombs."

You do understand the difference between the verbs "access" and "control," right?

For the Government to have "access" means that they are not *excluded* from campuses. It doesn't mean that they in any way *control* what is happening on those campuses.

Do you think that giving the Muslim Students Association "access" to a college campus equates to Muslims "taking over" the college campus?

Give me a break, Lilly. Sometimes your arguments make sense, but evidently you're not having a good day today.



Liberals
You can't debate with a liberal as they do not have the intelligence. All they can do is spout rhetoric and call you names. They ruined the school system in America with their social promotion system. That is why we have High School Graduates who can not read and College Graduates who can not do simple arithmetic. It's even worse for young black men, because when they attempt to educate themselves, they are called Uncle Tom or told that they are acting WHITE.
I think Thomas Sowell is one of the most intelligent individuals I have had the pleasure of reading. He is the perfect role model not just for young Black men, but all men!

chuck
We can only wish - but as a "veteran" of Townhall, I can tell you that "tr" is just the 20th or so reincarnation of this jackass's handle - he's been booted so many times.

I predict his posts will disappear soon - but he will return with some other variation before the sun sets.

Robert
Wobbie whats up you must be slippin because before this statement you are always stating
4000 troop deaths. It must make you proud to braodcast the deaths of people you CLAIM TO SUPPORT.

I think all the DEMS in the Clinton Administration
claimed that SADAAM had WMDS also.

Why dont you put up that link

for chaka zulu
chaka zulu claims: "Wars should be fought quickly, in and out, to minimize casualties and deaths."

In practice, that would mean that the U.S. cannot fight guerrilla wars or counterinsurgency wars at all.

Because historically, irregular wars have taken an average of NINE YEARS to win. They are not quick and easy. They are slow, difficult, and ugly.

So our military would be useless, unless we can find another enemy with large massed tank divisions to fight in set-piece battles. Given who our strategic enemies are these days, that's highly unlikely.

Thus, faced with a threat in the form of an irregular force (insurgency, guerrillas, state-sponsored terrorists), your response to such a threat would be--WHAT, exactly? You just effectively ruled out military action, so what is left but surrender?

lilly
I served for 20 years in the military, and was making approximately 30K per year when I retired, which is a lot less than a lot of people make (I'm sure less than you)...

I do not have guaranteed life insurance, I would have had to pay A LOT for the Survivor Benefit Plan.

Please take your spew somewhere else...

Chuck
This is chuck also just hope we dont get mixed up in our debates Will have to remember that you are the Chuck with the Cap (C)

Robert, aka "Frobusto"
Thanks for being predictable!

It only took you one more post to blame President Bush.

Keep parroting away, Lefty.

Bopert


Clinton was screaming WMD.

But, I guess you forgot.

Primus54
What were some of the other call signs for (tr)
havent seen this one to much

for (tr)
(tr),
Hitler was *NOT* a "conservative." He was a far-right-wing radical.

He abolished all parties except the National Socialist Party. Including the conservative Catholic Center Party.

To call Hitler a "conservative" because he was right-wing, is like me calling Communists "liberals" because they were left-wing.

You wouldn't like to be associated with Communists. Don't try guilt by association on us conservatives either.

(tr)
Listen up schmuck. "Intellectual" does not translate to "liberal" (as demonstrated by your many posts). How exactly is it that a National Socialist Party isn't socialist? Oh wait, I know, it's when words don't mean anything. You are way out of your league here dude. You actually make Robert sound sensible, and that is saying a lot!

Wow! That was fast!
(tr) got dumped quickly today! Way to go Chris!

You paying attention, Frobusto?

chuck
Several variations of "TreasonousRepugs".

Didn't take him long today to get the ouster.

To paraphrase the movie...
"A few good men," those at UC Berkeley (and even within the city as well) live under the cloak of safety and security and protection offered by the United State military, whether they are stationed domestically or on foreign soil. Every person, man or woman, in any military branch, regardless of where they serve, is owed a debt of gratitude by every person living free in the USA. These people deserve recognition and honor, not ridicule and grief.

Wouldn't it be nice to banish entities like UC Berkeley, along with Silly Lilly, who carelessly toss around terms like "mercenary?" The best paragraph in this article is the 2nd one. Too bad indeed that we can't get the university, along with leftists like Lilly, sent to some island where they could fend for themselves, unfettered by the protection of the U.S. military. Or better yet, haul their collective patooties over to Cuba and let's see how far their rights to freedom of speech get them there.

I don't see anyone on the left voluntarily sacrificing their American rights to anything for the leftie causes they supposedly believe in -- not freedom of speech, freedom to demonstrate, freedom to pursue happiness in any mode they wish. All they do is crank up their mouths and run them, and they let the venom spew forth uncontained. They ARE protected by the U.S. military -- but do they deserve it? Not in my book.

Ahhh, would that there WERE such an island.

Saying you support the troops....
...but you don't support the war is like saying you like the Yankees, but hate baseball. It's just typical BS from a lib that sounds "enlightened".

for chuck
chuck writes: "It must make you proud to braodcast the deaths of people you CLAIM TO SUPPORT."

Let me explain it to you one more time:

All Americans should be outraged at how Bush and Rumsfeld sent an undermanned, underequipped force into a country the size of California with a population of 26 million people, and then refused to even consider the possibility of an insurgency war until too late. They combined that with restrictive rules of engagement that enabled the enemy to fortify mosques and other civilian installations, while our troops couldn't do a damn thing about it until *after* they had already been fired upon.

By the time Rumsfeld was fired, America had taken more casualties than we needed to, and the war had gone on longer than it needed to.

I keep wondering how much lower our casualties could have been if we had leaders who had fought the war properly--or else not fought it at all.

Do you think we can truthfully tell our men and women in uniform that the leadership they had was worthy of the task?

Vets
Primus54 - Nam65-66 - Sgt Relic

Welcome home

US Army

5/2 ADA Battalion D battery track 142

M-42 "dusters"

Twin 40mm

Frobusto, aka "Fraud" Robert
Re: Your 8:55 AM

What have you been drinking this morning?

I know it is difficult for Leftists to write coherently and stay on subject, but could you perhaps re-read (or read for the first time) Dr. Sowell's article - and at least TRY to stay on topic???

Robert
If The Scud Meister or MR GLOBULL Warming would have been POTUS we would still be here wondering what to do about 9/11 incident.

I think if you ask the IRANIANS they would tell you that SADDAMS WMDs were for real or as you put it (crossed that line), even the KURDS got a tastes of some WMDs

Why dont to put up that LINK

The best honor for our troops....
...is to win the war. Plain and simple. Wherever these muslim lunatics are, kill 'em all and let allah pass out the virgins. Otherwise it will be an endless cycle of whack-a-mole after a few thousand innocent civilians are killed somewhere by terrorists.

Rick C
Thanks for the kudos, but undeserved in my case - not a Vet myself.

Many, many years ago I suffered from the mental disorder known as "liberalism" so did not volunteer when I had the chance - a regrettable decision.

Fortunately, I eventually outgrew this adolescent condition and joined conservative sanity - and unlike our liberal friends, I support our troops AND their mission.

Thank you for your service to this great nation.

You keep battling our enemies abroad and we'll try to do the same with the enemies within our midst here at home.

SteveL
Do you think that we could have told the men in uniform DURING WWII (NORMANDY) the leadership that they had was worthy of that task also.

Thousands of men died before they even put one foot on the beeches. But we Prevailed. Not like today were people in our government want to become armchair GENERALS and make our troops SURRENDER AND RETREAT from what? (WINNING)

War has never been ran perfectly because what happens on the ground always dictates the outcome. No one can ever dictate how the outcome of a WAR will be, not even the PRESIDENT

I do blame BUSH for not making adjustments during this WAR but as a VET of 22 years I have seen the GOOD,the BAD and the UGLY of WARS myself and no one is PERFECT. We are all human and humans are ept to make mistakes.


Operation Pink=Pinkos
Does no one remember that the name, "Pinko" was given to those who were Communists or Commies? What a clever way Operation Pink tells those who are in the know who they really are. They've been around since the 50s and since Mother Russia has fallen, they are here among us again.
Operation Pink = Pinkos = Commies

Robert
As someone who claims a commission and being an active duty member of the armed forces - don't you DARE presume to lecture ANYONE on "honor".

Your thousands of traitorous and dishonorable comments about your alleged Commander-in-Chief on these threads disqualify you from having the slightest clue about "honor".

Lilly
How dare you, somehow I get the picture of you
standing outside where incoming troops arrive from Viet Nam, waiting to spit on them and call them baby killers. You and your ilk (educated fools for the most part, and useful idiots for the other part..see Gen. Giap since you are so expert at googling) are beneath contempt. Two of my sons enlisted in the U.S. Navy in the late 80's, the elder spent 5 yrs. active duty; and the other 9 years submarine service. While he
was active duty he didn't have enough money to support his family and had to apply for FOOD
STAMPS something this conservative family finds humiliating. But the impeached perjured pervert made sure that the military got its support cut so he could buy votes from those who will NOT work. My boys EARNED everything they ever received from the military, what have you ever done for your country in your 80 odd years except
slam it. And you are old enough to remember WW2 or are were those men mercenaries also. My eldest grandson is Navy enlisted, he's no mercenary and hopes to become a Navy medic with the Marines. Another grandson expects to enlist
in the nest year. As far as I'm concerned most of academia is nothing but a gaggle of educated fools who would be among the first to cry for help if the war comes here. And they are collaborators, you do remember what the French did to women who were collaborators, shaved their
heads. If you were among my kids teachers, and they told me of your drivel, you can bet you and I would butt heads..teachers had to earn my respect before they got any support.

lilly:
You wrote, "We are compensating our volunteer military with salary, perks, bonuses, and benefits far beyond any pay scale I have ever heard of." and other similar comments.

Having been in the military, I can say that if its pay is as good as you make it out to be, the armed forces wouldn't HAVE to recruit; they'd have to WEED OUT. In fact, you'd probably be in one of them yourself.

for chuck
chuck writes: "Do you think that we could have told the men in uniform DURING WWII (NORMANDY) the leadership that they had was worthy of that task also."

Yes I do.
The invasion of Normandy was:

a) Part of a grand strategy that was, for the most part, right on target. We invaded France and from there pushed into Germany. We didn't invade Spain, for example, even though it was a Fascist country too.

b) The right strategic move to make at the right time (as opposed to the invasion of Italy from North Africa, which was a waste of time and got Mark Clark bogged down in Italy)

c) Undertaken with the biggest, best equipped force the U.S. could possibly field. During WW2, we started from an almost nonexistent army in December 1941; and by the time of Normandy, we had over 12 million men and women serving in the military. FDR had put the nation on a war footing to support the troops. Unlike Bush, he did NOT tell Americans to go out and shop, hug their children, and ignore the war.

I'm really surprised you brought up Normandy. Had you brought up the Mark Clark campaign, you would have had a MUCH better analogy to the mess in Iraq.

We had some great generals in WW2. But Mark Clark wasn't one of them.

Liberals
If these same liberals really knew the history of WWII's battle's, they would not be talking about the "mistakes" in this war.

Not all battle's happen the way you want or plan them to. Watch the History channel or the Military channel some time.

If these people were back in WWII, the war in the Pacific would have scared their pants off. The fight for the islands cost 2000 to 3500 dead (or more ) for one island. Guadalcanal - Siapan - Okinawa - Kajaleane (sic).

It is sad to lose people in war. We have lost near 4000 in 4yrs. Wait till the real war gets started when you pull out of this one.


Dr. Sowell
750,000 innocent Iraqis,who never asked for American intervention are now DEAD.Do you think, that they support our TROOPS?I will not wait for the answer...

Primus54/SteveL/Chuck
Liberals are living proof that God has a sense of Humor.

tr
But you LIBS sure wanted to let Sheik Mohammed go
free by wanting him to have the same rights as American Citizens do.

I notice that your Lib Polititians over in Pakistan making sure that the SOCIALIST Party Wins. Do you think they are there to find OBL.
Hell they cant even get the voting rights in this country right what are they doing over there
I Pity Pakistan if they are listening to this DO NOTHING DEM LED CONGRESS. Maybe they are there to give OBL some more of you LIBS talking points that OBL seems to use on every American election. Hell they may even know where OBL is since he is there buddy. Wouldnt put that by them also.

Its funny how you LIBS are screaming that Bush is always interferring with other countries political situations but you have all those DEMS
over there to do what. I think we seen what Carter has done to South America and their corruption in those countries. Hell Carter presided over election that people have claimed were corrupt but that still doesnt stop you LIBS from trying to SOCIALISE the rest of the FREE WORLD


"killer"
A little less koolaid, Moonbat.

(tr???

quoting you :

"what an idiot you are. in case you hadn't noticed the ringleader of the 9/11 "incident" runs free with bush inc. at the healm."

What is a healm? It is a stem.
I'm guessing you meant helm.

But accuracy does not seem to be a strong point of yours.

They're not that dumb/ usual bias though
I have to admit, not allowing military recruiters on college campuses is a bit tyrannical. Clearly the students at Berkley are not dumb enough to join the military under the current pointless, mindless circumstances in the Middle East. My guess is that this sort of activity is more of the exception, than the rule. Sowell’s columns are increasingly becoming more similar to Fox News punditry. Sowell states, “It is a shame that Berkeley is not on some island in the South Pacific, because then they could be given their independence and left to defend themselves.” This rhetoric sounds very similar to Bill O’reilly’s comments about San Francisco’s stance on this same subject matter a while ago. I mean, come on Sowell, be a little bit more original.

Sowell continues his usual bias and cliché smear of liberals by criticizing media outlets like the New York Times for its reporting of the war, while blatantly ignoring the political buffoonery, and incompetence that has taken place in our countries top office in executing the war. It’s a shame a man with the credentials of Sowell has become nothing more than just another unoriginal lap dog for the GOP.

killer: Oh Pa-lease! THEY DO!

But then, we know that "killer" and the other luntic libs are just more examples of what Dr. Rossiter is talking about in his book,

"The Liberal Mind: The Psychological Causes of Political Madness." ...

Dr. Rossiter explains why liberals are clinically nuts, and liberal ideology is mental disorder.


Lilly....
you are such an ignorant cluck.

The recruiting office in Berkeley was not on campus and no office was planned there. The office is in the city close to the campus.

Your hatred of the men and women who put their lives at risk is pathological. It would be interesting to get a peek at your shrink's notes.

The profession of arms is an honorable and ancient one. You are now enjoying the fruits of the sacrifices of our brave men and women in uniform. Whatever they earn in their dangerous profession is too little. Your story of the disabled dentist may be true, but like the rest of your drivel, I doubt it.

You are such a despicable person to denigrate our service members. You should read this book: Because They Hate, by Brigitte Gabriel, St. Matrin's Press. This woman, now an American citizen, was a Christian Arab in southern Lebanon. She and her family lived in a bomb shelter for SEVEN (7) YEARS while Muslims shelled and rocketed their small Christian village. I think even you will understand the mortal danger to our country by radical Muslims and the useful idiots like you.

lilly fallacies
First, you can't compare the incomparable. Yes, when we had a draft, the military did not *have* to pay for recruitment and retention. Indeed, now that we don't have a draft, they do. The difference is between involuntary and voluntary transactions, and a matter of basic economics. If you don't understand it, then there are a lot of good books out there to read up on it. If you do, then I fail to see your point. Are you then, making an argument against the free market or against the draft? If so, then you need to be explicit about it and focus your argument there.

And secondly, you need to try to make a reasoned argument. A case in point is when you offered your example of the dentist serving in Paris as an argument against the military paying their employees too much. But the problem is that you can infer nothing (or, alternatively, you can infer anything) from a sample of one, i.e. that line of the reasoning is fallacious. Again, I won't offer a bibliography, but you can simply look under Logic or Statistics at your local library or bookstore for helpful resources.

If you always sit at home or in the office wondering why people at TH characterize your postings as "rants", then the reasons outlined above may be of some help to you.

Anthony Thomas
Why don't you just start a blog and provide links instead of wasting so much time re-typing the same message over and over?

According to you, Fox News is nothing but a right-wing shill and all Townhall columnists mere tools of same. I swear I've read the same swill on Malkin & Coulter colums.

I'm sure you believe the NYT is a bastion of "fair and balanced" reporting.

Go make some candy and leave political discourse to the adults.

Robert/SteveL
Im not a big fan of Rummies but I think his downfall was that he was put into a REBUILDING Mode and he damn sure wasnt any good at that.


You might want to refresh my mind but I never heard this PRESIDENT state anything about go shopping and hugging your children. I saw him on the TUBE telling Americans and the World that this is going to be a long and hard fought Battle. So you need to have patience and support your troops, I think that is where the phrase of SUPPORT THE TROOPS came out of.


The problem is that you LIBS tried to use that phrase to stop the WAR and funding of it and it backfired on you.

Chuck writes
"I think Thomas Sowell is one of the most intelligent individuals I have had the pleasure of reading. He is the perfect role model not just for young Black men, but all men"

I've been reading Thomas Sowell's columns since 94. Like you I find him a very intelligent read and a former Marine to boot. This column was one of his best yet and have read a few that are right up there. It's a shame that the minority community treats him with such disdain. If only they could understand what he was talking about instead of villifying him.

Dust off the Constitution
IMO, its time to dust off the Constitution and start prosecuting the traitors who are giving "Aid and Comfort" to our enemies in time of war.


Anthony Thomas
Fox News and Rush seem to blackmail the moral thinking Conservative into their sphere of influence. Fox and Rush control the message and have no checks. Rush can say anything crazy he wants and no one can stop him. Code Pink represents maybe 1% of Berkley and .00001% of the democrat party and the Right turns them into main spokesmen for dems. Why don't we support our troops the old fashioned way, with national sacrifice and not grand tax cuts for rich people?

facts vs opinions


After googling "750,000 Iraqis died" and other variayions, I can only come to the conclusion that many can not tell the difference between displaced and killed.

No surprise
"Unsubstantiated charges against American troops in Iraq are front page news but incredible acts of heroism in battle are seldom reported there, if at all."

This shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. Liberals focus on the negative, for the most part. They focus on things they can complain about, they try to make everything into a Hollywood movie, everything is drama.

"That thousands of Iraqis who fled the country during the height of the violence and turmoil are now returning is no big deal to the media."

No, of course it's no big deal to the media. They've already done their "drive by", spitting out bad news and partial truths, and God forbid they return to correct any mistakes or tell any other side of a story.

Keep these awesome articles coming Mr. Sowell, we love you for it!

A little perspective please.......
There were 39 combat related killings in Iraq in January.

In the fair city of Detroit there were 35 murders in the month of January.


That's just one American city, about as deadly as the entire war-torn country of Iraq .



The libs treat Sowell....
...with disdain simply because he disagrees with liberals. Disagreeing with liberals is now called "hate speech". It's pretty simple to commit this kind of "hate speech" because all you have to do is "cite facts". I agree M-O-4, we don't hear enough about procecuting traitors like we should. We can start with the lawyers that want to defend the terrorists at Gitmo.

Taft
"Fox and Rush control the message and have no checks."

They control what message? No "message" can be controlled, that's just plain silly nonsense. You make it seem like they have magical powers to control the minds of others.

A message is received by it's audience and can be taken in a variety of ways, no one can force you to think a certain way or to agree with a certain opinion or political philosophy.

"Rush can say anything crazy he wants and no one can stop him."

Well, yeah, and so can you. It's called "freedom of speech". Or do you think freedom of speech should only be given to the New York Times and those that agree with YOU?

"Code Pink represents maybe 1% of Berkley and .00001% of the democrat party and the Right turns them into main spokesmen for dems." It must be nice to have statistical facts at your disposal. I wonder where you come up with those? The fact is that Code Pink and their ilk have ideas and beliefs that are held by a lot of liberals. How many? I have no idea, and won't come up with fake percentages to try and make my argument more sound.

Anne
How many people in Detroit lost limbs or have brain injuries?

To all good folks writing comments~
So much anger,so much name calling!Thank heaven
Jorge Bush was a "uniter" and not a "divider"!!!
Imagine how awful this would all be had we not
been united!!!(tongue in cheek)Our family is very
military going back generations,said with pride.
We are a mix of liberal and conservative and we
disagree on many points...except one...that unless we stop the fighting with each other,we are sunk as a country.You have your agenda,I have
mine and together we have a bigger agenda...us and our future...how about some concentration on
the future of this great country?Combine all the
fine minds and develop solutions.Hope springs eternal...but even hope needs some help in the
form of cooperation between the folks it benefits!

chuck - about "Robert"
Don't be fooled by "Robert" and his self-professed knowledge of history.

He claims to be an active duty Naval Captain, but just a couple of weeks back, he referred to the Supreme Court using the acronym "USSC".

Now, as any REAL military officer would tell you, the use of acronyms occurs in nearly all discourse - and the correct acronym for the Supreme Court is "SCOTUS".

If that weren't enough evidence of this fraud's bona fides, just read his grammar and check his spelling. Can you imagine a career Naval officer displaying such poor skills?

Nope, "Robert" is just a far left-wing shill posing as something his fantasies wish were true, but doesn't have the gonads to admit - he's too deep in his obfuscations.

To quote an old cliche', "if it walks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck..."

Liberals are abject cowards
Robert writes: Tuesday, February, 19, 2008 8:56 AM
A President is responsible
...for the acts of his/ her administration

Robert

Didn't your boy Bubba blame Janet Reno for Waco? Craig livingstone for the 900 FBI files? The VRWC for Vince Foster? The media for the Hillary Care fiasco? This could go on all day

Taft: another luntic lib added to the

list of examples of what Dr. Rossiter talks about in his book:

"The Liberal Mind: The Psychological Causes of Political Madness." ...

"... why liberals are clinically nuts, and liberal ideology is mental disorder."

GEE Taft, I don't know... Look it up!!!!!





tr or tr( or {tr}

In a word NO.

You call names, berate and demean others.

Taft
"How many people in Detroit lost limbs or have brain injuries?"

You've got to be kidding, Taft.

Seriously.

You're now going to start categorizing the "type" of killings? You're saying that it's acceptable if more killings occur in Detroit as long as they're a certain type, versus the ones our heroes in uniform endure in a foreign country, fighting those that want to kill Americans? Fighting against those that, if given the chance, would kill you in a heartbeat, and your family, and your friends?

I'll give you a minute to think about how that sounds.

Liberty Dave
How many members does Code Pink have? Divid that by the population Berkeley and see what you get, probably less than 1%. Have you heard one democrat complain about giving the troops the needed medical treatment they need or the armor and guns they need? No, dems support our troops, period.

Also the difference between me and Rush and opinions is you and everyone here can criticize them and show them for what they are.

(tr
It takes a sick mind, like yours, to even come up with the idea of googling something like that.

You're pathetic.

academics
The so called academics use flowery words and try and pass themselves off as educated. For some it works and far too often.

Reality is just the fact that we have a standing military, whether they are deployed or not, keeps many a wolf at bay.

Reality is the military also delivers more humanitarian aid and relief than the Peace Corps, Red Cross, International Red Cross, and the UN combined.

Hope the hippies have enough money to sustain Berkeley because there is and will be an economic backlash to this.

Tea Party
Hats' off to you and your family! This article and responses etch in stone. Highly educated does not mean you are smart.

I have an idea for (tr's new screen

name when he gets banned again..... How about:





================================================
Too bad that with (tr's drug fried dead brain he won't get it, but the rest of us do... Ha Ha















Robert - The Know It All Of History
Robert offers a retrospective truth, "It MIGHT could have been such a war had two things happened which did not happen ...first there was a competent political strategery including retention of the Iraqi army as a stabilizing force and two enough American assets to ensure domestic order which a new domestic regime was "stabilized"...and I should add three ...some clue of what that regime would look like."

Nice. As in any battle, if everyone knew the future, it would never be fought. It is nice that you are so wise to know all in advance. However, do not expect a call from anyone to have you lead them anywhere because of this brilliant post-mortem. Even idiots can predict the past.

Silly nonsense.

To c.zuzu


chaka zulu is Black Socialist .. Just {another} brother or sister doing the African thing .
Well Africa has been murdering each other for Thousands of years !

First lesson, the policy makers should not get us involved in needless conflicts in which US survival is not directly involved.

Wrong ( War ) has no bounderies Dummy and the common good is Democracy (energy) we "don't and won't make for ourselves ! I guess to walk to the welfare office right or the hate Conservatives clinic ?

Second, should we get involved in such a conflict, there should be a quick exit strategy.

(War) is not a 30 minute TV Show with Four brakes for Commercials and they all Lived happy for ever after taken from the OBOMA Play book !

The Art of War by Sun Tzu, makes this abundantly clear.
Wrong ( He said ) The enemy at your Back is a worse than the enemy you face on the battlefield !

The media is just giving us the rates of desertion, suicide, family abuse, and criminality of the returning troops as indicators of troop morale.

( Lies and agenda driven )More Blacks have been ''MURDERED " in Detroit , Philla, LA and Baltimore than period of time than in Iraq and Afghanistan in the last 6 years ! WHERE'S YOUR MORAL OUTRAGE THERE AND THE MEDIA'S AS WELL ?

support the troops,” but hold those who sent them to war and are clueless as to what to do next, accountable.
Do you mean those Black City Mayors and City councils get our welfare fair checks and give it to the REAL VICTIMS !

US TAX PAYERS !
ReCon USMC BEEN THERE .
YOU HAVE NOT AFRO QUEEN

Taft
"No, dems support our troops, period."

I never said dems don't support our troops, and I personally don't like lumping everyone together in a group like that, because there are always exceptions. I know many liberals that support the troops.

I said that the ideology of Code Pink is shared by many liberals, and it is.

"Also the difference between me and Rush and opinions is you and everyone here can criticize them and show them for what they are."

I'm not sure what you mean by this exactly. This statement does nothing to defend the silly notion you put forth that Rush and Fox News are able to control the brains of others.