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Wednesday, February 06, 2008
Thomas Sowell :: Townhall.com Columnist
Economics, Anyone?
by Thomas Sowell
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The other day, a reader e-mailed me to ask for an explanation of the gold standard. He had heard it advocated in one of the political speeches.

Any responsible answer to his question would have taken more time than I could spare, but I looked through several introductory economics textbooks -- including my own, "Basic Economics" -- to try to find something that I could recommend that he read. Unfortunately, none of them covered the gold standard in any great detail.

Since then, however, I have gotten around to reading a recently published book titled "The Concise Encyclopedia of Economics," edited by David R. Henderson and published by the Liberty Fund in Indianapolis.

It had an article on the gold standard.

More important, it has articles on all sorts of other economic topics, from advertising to minimum wage laws and from pharmaceutical drugs to foreign aid.

Most of these articles are written by well-known economists and -- miracle of miracles -- they are written in plain English and can usually be understood by readers with no previous knowledge of economics.

An election year would be the perfect time to get a book like this, so that you can understand some of the economic issues being hotly debated.

However, if you have a favorite candidate, you should be warned that there is nothing like studying economics to make you disillusioned -- if not disgusted -- with your political hero.

If all the economic fallacies promoted by politicians were taken out of their speeches, many of those speeches would be cut in half, at least.

My own recently published book, "Economic Facts and Fallacies," deals with some of the most widely promoted fallacies. But no book can cover all the utter nonsense that politicians talk in an election year.

My hope is that "Economic Facts and Fallacies" will expose some of the worst fallacies and leave readers sufficiently skeptical that they will take other political "solutions" with a grain of salt and stop to think before they join a stampede.

Fallacies can sound very plausible if you don't stop to analyze what is being said and don't bother to check out the facts.

Some of the fallacies examined in various chapters of "Economic Facts and Fallacies" include the following:

1. Government programs are needed to create "affordable housing." (Actually, government intervention is what has made housing so unaffordable in places where even hovels are expensive.)

2. Employer discrimination is the main reason for differences in income between women and men. (Tons of evidence point in other directions.)

3. College tuition is going up so fast because of rising costs. (Only if you call voluntary increases in spending "rising costs.")

4. Foreign aid helps poor countries become more prosperous. (Only if you don't look at the evidence.)

5. The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer. (It all depends on whether you are talking about flesh and blood human beings or statistical brackets.)

"Economic Facts and Fallacies" is not just a demolition derby. It also brings out some facts that seldom get much attention in the media.

1. The poverty rate among black married couples has been in single digits since 1994.

2. The average income of the elderly is several times their earnings, and their wealth is far higher than among younger people.

3. Just as blacks are turned down for mortgage loans more often than whites, so whites are turned down more often than Asian Americans. (What does that do to racism as an all-purpose explanation?)

In any event, here are two books from which people with no background in economics can learn to protect themselves from the economic fallacies which abound in an election year.

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About The Author
Thomas Sowell is a senior fellow at the Hoover Institute and author of The Housing Boom and Bust.
 
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Sowell
I wish I could carry around a pocket Sowell or a pocket version of all his columns so I could remember how to cut through all the economic crap I hear all day...

Dr. Sowell
What is your opinion of M. Friedman's book "Money Mischief"? I've struggled through it a couple of times (I'm not sure that I really finished it either time), and it seems to refute some of the arguments for the gold standard.

Of course I've read other stuff (Austrian Economic materials, of course) in which the case for a gold standard seems plausible.

What's your opinion of the gold standard verses the fiat system?

Wow! Edwardo
I bet Thomas Sowell wishes he had your powers of argument.

In case you were the tiniest bit sincere in wanting to know in depth what he is talking about, try reading a little.
http://www.heritage.org/Research/welfare/povertyinequality. cfm

Why Money has Value
People get all excited that modern money's value is based on the fact that the government will accept it for taxes. That's it, folks. What they fail to realize is that gold was established as money for exactly the same reason. No farmer, shepherd, stone cutter, tailor tinker or candlestick maker, no hunter or gatherer ever had any use for a soft, shiny rock. HOWEVER, kings and preists had a use for it for jewelry and covering idols and making sacred objects. Its qualities of never rusting and being lustrous and the most malleable metal known make it uniquely valuable for those purposes, theirfore although all the aforementioned people had no use for gold, they know THE GOVERNMENT of their day, the kings and preists, would accept it for payment. flying tree Q.E.D.

A Controversial Point
Dr. Sowell makes an excellent point. Today, all the politicians make promises that purport to have clear and immediate benefits to someone or a class of people. The costs are fuzzy and always deferred into the future.

Our framers gave the vote to white male landowners. Why? Here is my hypothesis. These were the people who were educated well enough to make important decisions about the future of the newly formed United States.

Yes, I see the risk that people would vote to maintain their vested interest. My supposition is that the framers believed that most would vote in the interests of the country versus themselves or at least that they were willing to make this bet. This is the "principle" behind the mandate.

Today, there are folks from all ethnic groups and from both genders that would meet the requirements to vote as originally stated. Unfortunately, many are not.

Sometimes, I think that there should be qualifications to vote that go beyond age.

Maybe the outcome would be different than what we have today where so much is driven by sound bites, pop psychology (or anti-intellectualism) and economic illiteracy. Hmmmmmm......

Your thoughts?





We must return to the gold standard
Unless and until we do, the Fed will be able to milk us dry via the stealth tax known as inflation.

The facts are the net present value of the unfunded Socialist Insecurity and Mediscare liabilities exceed the net worth of the country.

Stated differently, WE'RE BROKE!

But for the wizardry of the Federal Reserve, this would be readily apparent to the citizens.

We must return to the gold standard. It is the only thing that will INFLICT fiscal discipline on the drunken sailors. Apologies to drunken sailors.

Required reading:

The Case Against The Fed by Murray Rothbard

The Creature from Jekyll Island, By Griffin

http://www.realityzone.com/creature.html

Must Read irreverent, contrarian comment

I read Basic Economics recently
and now laugh whenever I hear a politician talk aobut their "plan" to improve the economy. Why would anyone trust a person that has never held a private sector job (elected Democrats?) or run a business to know how best to improve the economy?

The best plan a politician could have would be for the government to get completely out of the way and let the profit motive give us the technological advances well all desire. For example, I predict the day will come when somebody sues the pharmaceutical industry for not producing better drugs to combat a particular disease. It will be totally lost on everyone that these drugs would have been developed if the company had not gone out of business due to oppresive government regulation, taxation, etc.

Ask yourself: Do you want medications that can treat Parkinsons Disease? You do? Then let somebody make money by producing this medication. If there is no money to be made, then there is no incentive to invest money for a solution.

This explains the Gold Standard best
What cost $1.00 in 1800 would cost $1.03 in 1944.

Thats 144 years the US Dollar was backed by Gold, no inflation.
Up to the Bretton Woods agreement

What cost $1.00 in 1944 would cost $2.57 in 1973.
From Bretton Woods to Nixon removing the Gold backed Dollar.



What cost $1.00 in 1973 would cost $4.91 in 2007
1973 when we had the first gasoline lines and rising costs for the fuel.
Connection?
Many say there is, converted the Dollar from Gold backed iou's, to oil backed iou's.

Whats interesting in using the inflation calculator
(http://www.westegg.com/inflation/infl.cgi) is these comparisons.

What cost $1.00 in 1800 would cost $12.05 in 2007.

But this one does something quite different.

What cost $1.00 in 1800 would cost $0.58 in 1913.

The only time the US Dollar increased in purchasing power was the time we had no Federal Reserve Banking Corporation running off its fiat paper.


edwardo
writes, "A lot of wealth increase is not income based, but is based in unrealized capital gains. I challenge Dr. Sowell to prove that there is no increased disparity in wealth."

Then where does it come from if it is not income based. grass roots conservative gave a good link to good economic information for someone with at least a basic level of economic knowledge but, I am not sure you are there yet.

Yes, people earn capital gains from many assets, real estate, stock, bonds, zero coupon note to derlict brother in law. The money used to purchase these assets can only come from income either earned thru wages, profits(self employed), or earnings on assets previously purchased. It all comes from earnings in the beginning. An individuals personal net worth results from the spending/savings/investing decisions they make.

Are you trying to use this as some kind of club to extort money from those who saved it instead of spending it. This is already done thru the death tax. We also double tax already by extracting money from realized capital gains, dividends, etc. So, the people who save, invest are taxed again on that income while those that simply spend every penny are taxed only once. Lose the envy. Someone's grandad was a hell of an entreprenuer and grandson is living the life of riley and never worked a day in his life. Such is life. Get over it.

One more telling calculation
What cost $1.00 in 1913 would cost $21.23 in 2007.

The US Dollar had increased in purchasing power to buy twice the amount of good in 1913 than it did in 1800.

Since the Federal Reserve Banking Corporation has been handed the power over the economy and the value of money, this is what the real cost for all of us has been.

What cost $1.00 in 1913 would cost $21.23 in 2007.

Bretton Woods
Me thinks Bretton Woods is about to come unraveled. What a shame. /sarc

Fiat paper money is still as evil
As it was when Madison wrote this.
He compares paper fiat money to all the evil of insurrection and it is.
It is destroying the Republic


FEDERALIST No. 10

The Same Subject Continued
(The Union as a Safeguard Against Domestic Faction and Insurrection)
From the New York Packet.
Friday, November 23, 1787.
James Madison

To the People of the State of New York:

(next to last paragraph)

The influence of factious leaders may kindle a flame within their particular States, but will be unable to spread a general conflagration through the other States.

A religious sect may degenerate into a political faction in a part of the Confederacy; but the variety of sects dispersed over the entire face of it must secure the national councils against any danger from that source.

A rage for paper money, for an abolition of debts, for an equal division of property, or for any other improper or wicked project, will be less apt to pervade the whole body of the Union than a particular member of it; in the same proportion as such a malady is more likely to taint a particular county or district, than an entire State

Yes, the Credit Card
Is now being rejected as its over drawn.

-----------

Betty writes: 1:11 AM
Bretton Woods
Me thinks Bretton Woods is about to come unraveled. What a shame. /sarc

Murray Rothbard
Although I do not agree with his political theory, as an economist, no one writes more clearly or succintly for the layman as Murray Rothbard.

The one book of his that had me up all night in heady excitement is his "The Mystery of Banking". It's a tour de force in explaining the history and nature of money and banking and the function of the gold standard. It's written with a clarity even greater than his "What Has Government Done to Our Money". Unfortunately it is currently out of print, but you can download a free copy at the Ludwig von Mises Institute website, I highly recommend it!

http://www.mises.org/mysteryofbanking/mysteryofbanking.pdf





The Rich Get Richer and The Poor
get richer too.

The Vanishing Middle Class
are becoming Rich.

Augustus
Have you read Murry Rothbard's history of money in the United States?
You will like it too



http://www.torrentreactor.net/view.php?id=777343


"Rothbard, Murray N - History Of Money And Banking In The United States pdf

Torrentreactor is one of the oldest sites in the Internet for torrent downloads."

Not to worry Dr. Sowell, the
average american can not balace his checkbook or do his own income taxes. His understanding of economics is limited to what every the latest fad being promoted by the MSM is. In other words his sum total of knowledge is a 25 second sound bite.

If this were not true no Democrat would ever be elected again. Note that that should nclude about half of the current crop of Republicans who are noting more than Democrats who switched to Republican because of the foreign policy debacles of the current Dems.

Not to worry Dr. Sowell, the
average American can not balance his checkbook or do his own income taxes. His understanding of economics is limited to what every the latest fad being promoted by the MSM is. In other words his sum total of knowledge is a 25 second sound bite.

If this were not true no Democrat would ever be elected again. Note that that should include about half of the current crop of Republicans who are noting more than Democrats who switched to Republican because of the foreign policy debacles of the current Dems.

Then why are social programs growing too
Unca Alby writes: 1:40 AM
The Rich Get Richer and The Poor
get richer too.


-----------
For an example
This is just Social Security, not to mention the many other social programs for the "rich"

quote:
Office of Management and Budget
Social Security was designed as a pay-as-you-go, self-financing program whereby current workers pay taxes directly and indirectly, through their employers, to support the benefit payments for current retirees, disabled persons, and survivors (collectively, beneficiaries).

Such a system can only be sustained if the number of workers and the taxes they pay align with the number of beneficiaries and the benefits they receive.

In 1950, when there were 16 workers for every program beneficiary, the combined payroll tax rate was very low at 3 percent of taxable wages.

Currently, there are 3.3 workers for every beneficiary and the tax rate is 12.4 percent. The ratio of workers to beneficiaries is expected to decline further as the first of the baby boom generation becomes eligible for Social Security in 2008, and will fall to 2.2 workers per beneficiary in 2030

http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2008/outlook.html

Recessions really hurt the rich
People resent how much the wealthy make when the economy is going well but don't realize how much we lose when the economy goes bad. I can lose a years income in a few days. If I cut my losses I end up selling stocks that I have held for years and paying lots of taxes while losing huge amounts of money. All this wealth has been accumulated over 30 years of patience and by doing only what people are supposed to do. I am wealthy because I tried to be.

I resent people thinking I somehow don't deserve it. People want to have fun now and not worry about the future. They could have saved their money just as well. All this money I'm losing now is not from my bad choices but from other people's irresponsibility in creating this financial crisis. That's the way it goes. Seen it all before.

My parents gave me the advantage in life by teaching me how to prepare for these situations. Owe no money and you keep your house. Everything else they owed money on they lost during the great depression. They used to be wealthy.

One candidate understands economics
Sowell writes: "If all the economic fallacies promoted by politicians were taken out of their speeches, many of those speeches would be cut in half, at least." He then goes on to list a few of those fallacies. There is one candidate who rejects each and every one of those fallacies, but, to my knowledge, Dr. Sowell has never mentioned him in any of his articles.


''If all the economic fallacies.."
--
"...promoted by [this election cycle's crop of Republican presidential candidates] were taken out of their speeches...."

...the only one still speaking would be Ron Paul.

Because, of course, only Dr. Paul - the sole constitutionalist in a sick, sorry, stupid field full of "Rockefeller Republican" jerkwads - understands the principles of sound economics and endorses government under rule of law.

The more we hear the Townhall.com RINOs whine that we've just *GOTTA* get behind "our" candidate for November - John McDole - the better Ron Paul looks in contrast.


----------------------
"I’d love to be remembered as a Goldwater Republican. But I don’t pretend in any way to live up to the legacy of the man who literally changed the face of politics in America."

-- John McCain

A_MacRae - Rothbard's politics...
--
...(distasteful though they certainly would be to anyone who desires the use of government power to hammer down conformity upon his neighbors) derived directly and ineluctably from Dr. Rothbard's understanding of economics.

Quoting Walter Block:

"When asked what was the source of his prodigious scholarly and popular output, he [Dr. Rothbard] would reply: 'Hatred is my muse.' He would read something, say by a Marxist, Keynesian, or Chicagoite, become infused with disgust, and swear a mighty oath that this particular bit of idiocy would no longer stand, at least without a reaction from him."

"Hatred is my muse."

What better source of inspiration for a conservative and a constitutionalist in this era of Democrat connivances and "Rockefeller Republican" betrayals?


---
For the full text of Dr. Block's article on Murray Rothbard, see:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/block/block46.html

Solutions to America’s Economic Problems
From Tom Hefner

The following suggestions should be considered as part of a new plan to recover American industry and economic health:

Appoint an economic czar, a major cabinet post, to develop policies that protect our economy from foreign predatory practices and to create conditions to make

manufacturing competitive and profitable through government sponsored research, tax changes and subsidies.

Develop an industrial research and development division (similar to government sponsored National Institute of Health (NIH) - in Medicine or the Manhattan Project in World

READ MORE

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/solutions-to-ameri cas-economic-problems


Way to go John!!!!
In response to an article by the eminent Dr. Sowell about the abysmal level of economic understanding among our political classes, we are given "suggestions" as part of a new "plan" to achieve economic health that...

...demonstrates an abysmal level of economic understanding.

Hefner suggests, contrary to reality, that "free trade has been a disaster", that we should adopt a Japanese-style of industrial development (Japan has been in a decade long slump and has a national debt larger than their entire economy), fund government research (which diverts funds from more effective private research), implement subsidies and tariffs (which divert funds from more productive endeavors), interfere with international trade...

...he's pretty much advocating policies that, among other things, helped prolong the Great Depression. God save us from such economic "planning". It would "save" us right into national poverty.

John, try reading some of Sowell's books. "Basic Economics" and "Applied Economics" both demonstrate the economic fallacies that you sunscribe to. As do "Economics in One Lesson", "Human Action", "The Law" and literally hundreds of other works.

One More Fallacy
Economic knowledge is wisdom: Presidency Reagan was the only U.S. president with a degree in Economics. His knowledge was called voodoo by the experts (non-supply traditionalists).

Successful businessman means smart: Will Gov. Mitt Romney throw good money at a failed enterprise? Yes, he will.

I think that's one?

One more Fallacy

We're all Keynesians now ..
.. bring on the Jackbooted Thugs!

Incidentally, that is the topic of a post at:
http://voice.townhall.com/

I would also recommend the book "The Forgotten Man" by Amity Shlaes. The above post explains why this book is relevant to today's political discussion in general - and Universal Health Care in particular.

We're all Keynesians now ..
.. bring on the Jackbooted Thugs!

Incidentally, that is the topic of a post at:

http://voice.townhall.com/

I would also recommend the book "The Forgotten Man" by Amity Shlaes. The above post explains why this book is relevant to today's political discussion in general - and Universal Health Care in particular.

The biggest fallacy of all
"Capitalism is the problem."

A lot of people were butchered because of that belief. I learned it was false in academia, because of two things:

1. Academia has all the problems of capitalism, even though it's not part of capitalism. It has high unemployment, exploitation of the workers at the bottom (i.e., the adjuncts), the rich getting richer and the poor poorer, and greedy and stingy people at the top.

2. Academia today is dominated by leftists. And those leftists would rather bash Bush than actually deal with academia's problems.

It's true that there's a maldistribution of power in society, and wealth is a part of that, but only one part. There are many other factors, too.

PRESIDENTIAL ZEAL
ohn Kennedy was the last President elected from the little desk club of 100 in the Senate. Senators; ergo, legislators do not make for effective executives. Decision-making and cutting the cake to get the best results is not the forte' of whittlers and compromisers. There is no putting the butter on both sides of the bread which is a reality few Senators have accepted. The coming Presidential tide is going to be difficult in foreign affairs, economic security, and social well being and I pray that the Good Providence which has guided this wonderful country continues to put zeal and formula in out next President whom ever we do decide.

I believe - in the Catholic Church - someage around 75 years old the Papacy recommends its Cardianls retire. Age and visceral health can well be the crutial issue in the Presidential campaign.

Fess up Dr. Sowell!
Talking about the gold standard clearly is a reference to Dr. Ron Paul, whom Dr. Sowell, once again, goes to great lengths not to mention.

What makes this even more troubling is that Dr. Paul is the one most strongly aware of, and against, the 5 fallacies mentioned by Dr. Sowell.

I've been following Dr. Sowell for years, and this is just troubling. Dr. Sowell is obviously loathe to even mention his name, yet continually talks about how we need the kind of economic and monetary policy that Dr. Paul advocates.

This is completely disgusting. Each article like this that he writes really makes me question what's going on with Dr. Sowell.

RE: talent scout, gold standard
As usual, you only tell half the story.

Between 1800 and 1944, the world was producing gold at about the same rate as our economy was growing. In such times, of course a gold standard would provide for a stable currency.

However, today the economy is groing at a far, far, FAR faster pace than the rate of gold is being produced to back our currency.

Were we still on the gold standard, either we'd see the very same inflation we've seen since 1944 (due to producing more currency that is backed by less and less gold per dollar), or our economy would be crippled due to a lack of liquidable currency.

This is the problem with ANY commodity-backed currency. Everything works splendidly when the rate of producing that commodity is about the same rate as economic growth. However, any time there is a change in the production rate relative to economic growth there will be problems with the commodity-backed currency.

College cost/jobs
“College tuition is going up so fast because of rising costs. (Only if you call voluntary increases in spending "rising costs.")”

What increase in spending is Sowell talking about? Is he talking about the increase in spending by colleges and universities? What are they spending on? I wish he would give more specifics. Are all colleges and universities increasing their spending? Tuition, room and board is going up across the board at most colleges and universities in the United States.


This is a hot button issue for me, because American college students and parents have to go into debt to pay for a college education, while college students in Canada, the UK, Switzerland and France get an education for free. I even think there are some countries in Asia like India that subsidize their student’s education, probably why there are so many engineers and computer scientist who come from countries like India. Ironically I think many of our hi tech jobs are being outsourced to these very people. Many of my friends with computer science and engineer degrees have had their jobs outsourced to the Asia. I don’ care how Dr. Sowell spins it, there are many people in America who are getting unfairly screwed.

RON PAUL'S GOLDEN RULE
I truly believe that the prejudice against all things Paul and the determination by all the media to ostracize his ideas is based on the fear of those in power. Dr. Paul's ideas are nothing less than common sense, a rare commodity today and virtually non-existent in the government and the press. And so, of course, the people must be kept from a realization that there is a candidate who speaks this way.

I believe that there will be severe consequences brought to bear on those who acknowledge Dr. Paul and so we see who among them has courage.

"At the beginning of a great national change, the patriot is a scarce man: scorned, ridiculed and forgotten. When his cause succeeds, however, all men will join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." -Mark Twain


RE: Rising Tuition
Dr. Sowell is right about the increased spending at colleges and universities. Do you know anyone in a college faculty community? The perks are amazing for these people! I know of whole departments that have been sent on tours of Europe and Japan. It reminds one of Congress. They spend at will and then just tack the extravagances on to your children's tuition bill.
You and I can't imagine the lifestyle of these so-called educators.

AT
Read his book and find out.

What I need to understand is
If we link the $ to Gold, what would happen when the price of gold drops from current levels of approx. $900 an ounce to say $500 per ounce?

It is interesting to note that the Gov't SET the price of gold and fixed it in the $19 - $21 for 130 years from 1800 to 1930. When the price of gold is fixed it is a great hedge against inflation.

How is today different? In 1980 Gold was $641 /oz in 2000 it was $272 /oz and today it is over $900 /oz. Today gold is not so much a hedge against inflation as much as a commodity that is negatively correlated with the stock market and therefore goes up when stocks decline.

Morons For Return of the Gold Standard
Beowulfe gets it RIGHT! Sowell in his "Basic Economics" documents what happened in Europe when the Spaniards brought back vast amounts of gold from the new world ... that huge increase in the money supply caused huge inflation in Europe as the Spaniards spent freely using this metal that was used as money!

The world economy is far too large for gold to act as a stable currency ... the price of gold would inflate insanely! What backs the value of any money is the output of goods and services. Changes in the supply of whatever is the money, gold, or a paper currency, do NOT CHANGE THE OUTPUT OF GOODS AND SERVICES. However, when output increases [as it has for centuries] money supply MUST increase with it or rampant deflation can result. Sowell also writes about how this can destroy economies in his book!

So, forget about the idiotic gold standard ... it will not work!

beowulf
"Were we still on the gold standard, either we'd see the very same inflation we've seen since 1944 (due to producing more currency that is backed by less and less gold per dollar), or our economy would be crippled due to a lack of liquidable currency."

In this scenario, woudn't the holder of paper money realize that the paper currency was being inflated and debased and so the paper currency would end up being rejected and the market revert back to only accepting gold coinage? Inflation would be stopped in it's tracks by the freedom of the market to reject the paper currency and reverting back to the gold standard and base the paper currency is simply a symbol of, as it stands today we are denied that freedom by legal tender laws, we must accept the debased paper currency, our hands are tied by the government.

And why would there be a lack of liquidable currency? The purchasing power of an ounce of gold or any other amount of gold would go up or down according to the actual productivity existing in a given economy. The economy could grow at breakneck speed, and the amount of gold remain the same, all that would mean is that an ounce of gold would be worth more, it's purchasing power would grow, because that ounce of gold could buy more actual goods and services.

True Conservative
A new influx of a vast amount of gold would surely create rampant inflation just as it did in Spain, just as a vast influx of paper money causes inflation today, but just how likely is it in today's world for a new vast amount of gold to be discovered?


TANSTAAFL
"college students in Canada, the UK, Switzerland and France get an education for free."

Haven't you heard?

There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch (TANSTAAFL).

The people of these countries pay for education through their taxes.


"probably why there are so many engineers and computer scientist who come from countries like India."

The biggest reason, historically, that countries like India and other such places steeped in so much poverty, always have such great engineering and science departments at their schools, is that there is NO WHERE ELSE for intelligent people to go.

In the US, bright people go into industry and make $$. Despite all the kvetching over "outsourcing", it remains a fact that we also INsource jobs, and those tend to be highly paid. In places like India, there was precious little industry, so bright people stayed in school.

I'm sure this is beginning to change, as these places start embracing Free Markets more and more.

Always?
beowulfe writes: 10:45 AM
RE: talent scout, gold standard
As usual, you only tell half the story.
-------
ts:
Truth is I have yet to reach even 50 percent of the facts concerning the Gold Standard.
The 2000 character limit is oppressive for what all I can say.
But what is usual, is your need to characterize me as if I am here to intentionally with hold evidence from you.
Not the case.
Fact is this subject is gigantic and I find it impossible to cover every angle in a few posts, even a tome could never reach some of you simply because you believe in Keynesian, Leninist monetary policy.
Who hate the gold standard as it bars them from manipulation of the economy that all socialists and corporate bankers love sos much.

continued








Effect of deflation
If Augustus is correct and most of the world's gold supply has already been discovered, then as we continue to produce more and more output, this would lead to decreases in prices, leading to deflation. Ask Japan about the effect of deflation on an economy.

TS
Get a Gold Standard blog if the character limit is so oppressive.

Beowulf and Trueconservative
The two of you can choose to keep on using the government's money, in a free country it would be your right to do so, I certainly wouldn't stop you. But why won't you grant that same freedom to others? Why can't other free citizens choose to reject the government's fiat money and create their own gold coinage? Why does the government want to force everyone into their monetary boat? Is the government afraid that people would abandon the government's "secure" lifeboat of government money and get on board a gold boat? When a free person chooses to buy a car or a house in a free market, they inspect the car or the house to make sure they work as advertised, why aren't a free people also allowed to inspect and choose what vehicle they will use as a medium of exchange?

Anthony Thomas and Laurie-common sense
Mr. Thomas, please define "fairness". Is it being subsidized at the expense of other, more productive people? Is it being unaffected by economic considerations? Is it a state of dependency unallayed by accountability or contribution?

Does your "fairness" mean I owe you a certain lifestyle because you're too lazy/incompetent/uneducated too succeed in a competitive marketplace?

Laurie:what a situation; those with power and discretionary allocation of other's financial contributions misuse and waste those resources .
Sounds just like MOST liberals.

Augustus McRae
"but just how likely is it in today's world for a new vast amount of gold to be discovered?"

I agree ... that's NOT the problem today ... the problem is the supply of gold cannot keep pace with the growth of the world economy and would cause rampant DEFLATION ... a condition MUCH WORSE than the usual kind of inflation we get [see great depression].

Of course, if prices and wages AND CONTRACTUAL COMMITMENTS decreased uniformly this would not be a problem as everything would just get cheaper; but if you have a long term contract, say a mortgage, you would be paying for it in dollars worth far more than what you originally contracted for that would require much more output from you to pay it off now! This is part of what produced the catastrophe of the great depression when deflation was a huge problem. Again, Sowell documents this brilliantly in "Basic Economics".

beowulfe writes:
Between 1800 and 1944, the world was producing gold at about the same rate as our economy was growing. In such times, of course a gold standard would provide for a stable currency.
----------
ts:
You simply do not understand anything of the relationship of gold to inflation.
NOTHING.
Gold does not inflate, it increases in value, not lose value as the fiat paper does.
Certainly we all can agree you are not wiser and more knowledgeable than the Founders of America.
Who DEMAND all debt be paid in either Gold or Silver.
(article 1, section 10)
And who made it Law that MINTS be used for the creation of money.
NOT a printing press as the bankers love so they can create all the "money" they want to.
Just like Helicopter Ben Bernanke is DOING right now.
Before Greenspan was bought by the bankers, he also was a Gold Standard, hard money man.

He could not resist the temptation for riches and "prestige" the bankers offered him though.
So he joined in the gang and became their spokesman.
And America is now 9 trillion in debt. (just does not include all the debt)

I will always and forever hold such as Madison, Jefferson, Jackson, Lincoln, even John Kennedy above you for any knowledge concerning money.
Real money and not the 'ghost of money' as Jeferson calls the fiat paper we all use today.
Which paper is printed off to create debt, not riches as GOLD does.
continued





Augustus
Nobody's stopping YOU or others from using gold as your personal monetary standard if you think it's so stable [notwithstanding it's extremely volatile price behavior in the past 20 years]. If you think it preserves value better just buy enough gold to preserve the spending power of your surplus dollars and exchange them for the current, momentary value of dollars when you need to buy something.

I don't think you'll like the results, however. This year, sure; next year and next decade ... doubtful!

Talent Scout
READ SOWELL ... he knows more about economics than the founders. At the time, the gold standard made sense ... it no longer does; so spare us the long emotional paeans to the gold standard.

Why not a diamond standard, a platinum standard, a uranium standard ... all are quite rare? Money should be related to the total output of goods and services and nothing artificial!

Augustus_McRae writes:
"Why can't other free citizens choose to reject the government's fiat money and create their own gold coinage?"

No one is stopping you from walking around with gold coins. What makes it impractical is that most stores don't want to receive gold coins.

Think of it this way. You want to buy a newspaper for 50 cents.

In 1980 you would have needed 1/1282 of an ounce
In 2000 you would have needed 1/544 of an ounce
And today you would need 1/1800 of an ounce.

Can you imagine 1/1800th of an ounce. Unless you want to carry a variety of precious metals like silver etc. But even these metals convert at different rates every day. Then there is the problem with counterfit coins, say gold plated lead.

Try finding real silver half dollars in circulation today. Its hards beacause they switched to alloy coins and a silver half dollar is worth a lot more than 50 cents.


How much is a $50 (redeem in Gold) worth

In 1991, at the Czech Republic/Polish border, an elderly lady was trying to change an old US $50 bill, “redeemable in Gold,” it said. The manager would not change it, it was too old, dated 1928, the year I was born. In this part of the world, money that old is worthless, and sometimes, so am I.

Just for fun I gave the lady a new $50 bill, much to her delight, and put the old one in my wallet, wondering what I had bought. When we got home I found it was worth exactly $50.

I had obtained that crisp, never used, new $50 bill in Gdansk, Poland, so how did either of us, or the exchange manager know it was any good?

A few years ago I read a story somewhere, that said in the Middle East they found a money printing shop, that was producing $100 bills by the thousands, that were so good, so accurate, that only a chemical test could tell the difference.

Those bills were being spent by the millions in Russia, the middle East, and other such places. People presented them and accepted them as an exchange instrument. And what difference did it make that they were not backed by Gold or Silver, or anything else except the name, The United States of America.



beowulfe writes:
However, today the economy is groing at a far, far, FAR faster pace than the rate of gold is being produced to back our currency.
----------

ts:
All of it is debt too.
Do you not understand debt and what debt means?
For every Federal Reserve Bank Note printed off, it represents the debt it is creating for America.

This is the VERY same thing any of us can do with a credit card.
We can go spend and buy anything we want to with this card.
This is how "growing" the economy works.
Create DEBT.
You understand debt?
I do not think you do, just like our fellow citizens do not understand the schemes of fiat paper money.


------------
beowulfe writes:


Were we still on the gold standard, either we'd see the very same inflation we've seen since 1944 (due to producing more currency that is backed by less and less gold per dollar), or our economy would be crippled due to a lack of liquidable currency.
---------
ts:
False\backwards\untrue\imagination\accusation\ignorance\ and a host of other descriptive words for lies.

---------
beowulfe writes:

This is the problem with ANY commodity-backed currency. Everything works splendidly when the rate of producing that commodity is about the same rate as economic growth. However, any time there is a change in the production rate relative to economic growth there will be problems with the commodity-backed currency.
----------
Gold is money
It is not a comodity.
So your presentation is coming from a lack of knowledge in the simple truth of what money is.

I already posted the calculations of the solid footing American money had been with the Gold Standard.
No need to do it again cause you will ignore how simply it all is to trying and confuse any issue concerning the Gold Standard and why it works to enrich a people and not place them in debt to government and bankers.
As we ALL are today.

Deflation
I fail to see how the lowering of prices through the growth in productivity is a disastrous event.

Is deflation through greater productivity a bad thing?

No Sowell does not
You of he may imagine so, but its not close.
--------
TrueConservative writes: 1:19 PM
Talent Scout
READ SOWELL ... he knows more about economics than the founders.
-----
ts:
I much prefer to understand why the Founders ALL preferred gold over paper.
Paper fiat money was not invented by the Federal Reserve Private Banking Corporation.
It was around during the Founders day too.
They called it evil cause it is.
Thomas Sowell is not even in the same league as the Founders in Wisdom.
And this is from an honest evaluation of the criteria commonly available for all men.
Anyone who would think they are wiser than the Founders is self deluded.
I do not think even T Sowell thinks so highly of himself.
-------

TrueConservative writes:


At the time, the gold standard made sense ... it no longer does; so spare us the long emotional paeans to the gold standard.
--
ts:
Wrong
It is an unchanging value system etched into the real world economy.
----------
TrueConservative writes:
Why not a diamond standard, a platinum standard, a uranium standard ... all are quite rare? Money should be related to the total output of goods and services and nothing artificial!
--------
ts:
Perfect example of imaginations at play.
Why not just let gold do its job.

Talent Scout
As I mentioned previously, nobody's stopping YOU from going on the gold standard. Meanwhile, the rest of us will invest in the REAL economy that actually produces something useful. Money is simply a CONVENIENT way to exchange your labor and investment gains for goods and services you want to buy! All of your doom and gloom BS doesn't mean that people aren't using money to buy automobiles, houses, food, clothing, rounds of golf, whatever they want or need to spend it on. The world, especially, the US, is vastly better off than it was in the 1850s when you think it was the heyday of the gold standard!

Augustus
Deflation [or inflation] is not bad or good as long as EVERYTHING inflates and deflates at a rate consistent with growth or contraction of output.

The problem is this NEVER happens due to long term contracts [recently we have seen some inflation adjusted contracts], and political meddling. Among long term contracts are wages and salaries ... they don't necessarily inflate or deflate with the whole economy; so wages that don't have an advantage relative to those that do. It' far more stable to relate the money supply to overall output!

Augustus_McRae writes:
"Is deflation through greater productivity a bad thing?"
No if you are speaking of consumables. My iPod cost $150 a year ago but now the same iPod is only $100.

But:
My house was worth 300K when I bought it and now it is only worth 275K. Big difference.

Wholesale deflation is actually pretty devestating to the economy just as inflation is. People STOP buying goods because they will be cheaper next month and then you end up losing your job.

" The case for gold"
A good read to find out gold's value compared to fiat money: "The Case For Gold" by Dr. Ron Paul and Lewis Lehrman; Cato Institute press, 1982
ISBN 0-932790-31-3
It's dated somewhat to the 1980's but it's truths are truths today.

Talent Scout
You are truly deranged in thinking the founders knew more about ECONOMICS than Thomas Sowell ... and yes, I have no doubt Sowell would agree with that. Nobody [at least conservatives] dispute the broad and far-seeing intelligence of the founders; but give me a break ... we know far more about economics today!

jim writes:
Just for fun I gave the lady a new $50 bill, much to her delight, and put the old one in my wallet, wondering what I had bought. When we got home I found it was worth exactly $50.

I had obtained that crisp, never used, new $50 bill in Gdansk, Poland, so how did either of us, or the exchange manager know it was any good?
--------
Well, its because gold backing has been removed and there is none in the US Treasury for any citizen.
No longer will the government honor the contract that was in effect when that 50 gold backed iou was created.

Just like a private company that made an agreement and then annulled it.

Government does what it wants to and calls it legal.

The "rule of law"
Even Mussolini, Hitler, Mao and Stalin went by the "rule of law"
Course the law they invented.


And I will Die deranged
In "your" judgment.
Which means nothing.
---------

TrueConservative writes: Thursday, February, 07, 2008 1:49 PM
Talent Scout
You are truly deranged in thinking the founders knew more about ECONOMICS than Thomas Sowell ... and yes, I have no doubt Sowell would agree with that. Nobody [at least conservatives] dispute the broad and far-seeing intelligence of the founders; but give me a break ... we know far more about economics today!
---------
You sir are an idiot.
Judge me as you like.

While I ignore such ignorance

t scout writes:
TS: Gold is money
It is not a comodity.
-------------------------------
Explain HOW gold is not a commodity. It is used in MANY production processes today and traded on many international exchanges. There is a limited supply and many different people looking to consume it. Ever bought "Monster Cable" for your stereo?

---------------------------------
TS: I already posted the calculations of the solid footing American money had been with the Gold Standard.
---------------------------------
When the Gov't fixes the price of gold for 130 years and the supply of gold does not outpace the supply of goods produced you have little inflation. Do you propose the government prevent gold being traded and fix the price again?

What is the APPROPRIATE price of gold today?

Gold Standard not the end all
Our currency is being debased / inflated by the spend-a-holic congress. That is not teh fault of teh Fed. We don't need a gold standard we need REAL FISCAL RESPONSIBILITY. (For the liberals reading this, that doesn't mean increasing taxes!) The dropping value of the dollar also corresponds to growth of government and spending. Correlation does not equal causation.

So much debate about McCain being a conservative politician. He is not and neither is George Bush (either one). I wonder if there is such a thing. It would take guts, not a common trait among re-election seekers.

Fools' Gold
Gold standard is not the cure-all. Dollar debasement is caused by a spend-a-holic congress. The Fed is not to blame for that. Drop in dollar purchasing power also coincides with growth of government and spending. Corelation is not causation.

Much Debate about whether McCain is a conservative. He is not. Neither was / is President Bush (both of them). They are politicians first. When we get real fiscal responsibility (not tax hikes you dumb libs) the dollar will stabilize.


TruConservative
you write: "Of course, if prices and wages AND CONTRACTUAL COMMITMENTS decreased uniformly this would not be a problem as everything would just get cheaper; but if you have a long term contract, say a mortgage, you would be paying for it in dollars worth far more than what you originally contracted for that would require much more output from you to pay it off now!"

Doesn't increased productivity tend to decrease prices and COSTS together, thereby offsetting the price you have to pay to produce output? And what is to prevent creditors and debtors in a free market to agree to make repayment in a sum of money adjusted by some agreed upon index number of changes in the value of money, either adjusted for inflation or growth deflation?

double post
Oops. It appeared to go down the drain so I re-wrote and there it was.

A fracton of a Cubic Mile

talent scout writes: Thursday, February, 07, 2008 1:40 PM
Why not just let gold do its job.
=====

Well, what is it’s job, and how does it do it? Just by sitting in a pile in Ft. Knox?

I have read somewhere that all the Gold mined in all of history, is a fraction of a cubic mile. A ton of Gold is a 14.2 inch cube. That means there is much less than 25,000,000 tons of Gold, ever.

Well they have found trillions of tons of coal, and other metals, trillions of gallons of oil, and find new deposits every once in a while. What if they got to the proper place and found ten billion tons of Gold?

The best use I ever saw of gold was on my Sweetie’s finger, or around her neck. And wow, using our self-described piece-rate payment plan, that was worth more than all the Gold in Ft. Knox.

I spent time at Ft. Knox, and that Gold sure did not help me at all, not nearly as much as a speck of Gold on Sweetie’s finger or neck did for me.

Citizens today
Have been lied to by the very people they have placed trust in.

Such as the one here who claims Thomas Sowell is wiser than the Founders in Economics.

Not even a contest.

What has been lost to this generation is the Foundational Truths and Wisdom of the Founders.
What we have been subjected to is the socialists among us that the Founders of America are not worthy of our respect.
They defame them so their values can be ignored and new values installed into the heads of all citizens.

Schools no longer show the same degree of respect all former generations of American school children were taught, for American Ideas and American Founders.

Great Example, National Holidays.
Not one single American Patriot or Founder is given a day of Honor in America today.
We do have Presidents day, a token day of honor for the office of President, but not any of the Men who Founded America.

We do have a Martin Luther King holiday, recognizing this individual as worthy of National Honor.
Just Not a day to Honor George Washington any longer as it was in my youth.
No day to honor Jefferson.
No day to Honor Madison.
No day to Honor Adams
Just MLK.
I have lots of respect for this man as a courageous man, and NONE for his communist ties.
And now watch the hate that will fly my way from the "tolerant" socialists and racists cause I cite actual history of the man.

Wether he was a communist supporter I do not know.
I do know he had ties to the Communist Party and investigated by the FBI for that.
Yet he has a day of honor.
Just not any of the Founders.






It is all over
Romney has dropped out of the race and that leaves Huck who was only in it to thwart any real conservative candidate and take votes so the liberals could get ahead. He will drop out soon also.

The big question for Hugh is...will he join the "support McLame for unity of the party" crowd?

As I have said many times, the party can not endure this constant shift to the left and survive. I will NOT vote for McLame.

True
freetochoose2321 writes: 2:07 PM
Gold Standard not the end all
Our currency is being debased / inflated by the spend-a-holic congress
--------
But would NOT be possible under the Gold Standard.
Its only possible with the fiat paper the Federal Reserve is printing off daily by the millions.
Gold Standard is what kept the government in its Constitutional LIMITS.
That is why they had to get rid of it and adopt the Keynesian, Lenin method of money creation that has destroyed the Republic, as it was Founded.
This is the evil of the paper fiat money Madison spoke of in Federalist 10.
He called it EVIL, cause it is.

talentscout
I'm simply a layperson in this debate, but I more and more lean toward the Austrian theory of money and credit and the Austrian theory of the boom and bust cycle. This subject is of momentous consequence, it should be debated with utmost seriousness and respect. Name calling and insult and anger do you and this very serious and very important subject a grave disservice.

I, although being no expert, suspect, that the Austrian school of economics will eventually leave the Chicago Friedmanite Monetarist school of economics in the dustbin of history, but this will require many more years if not generations of quiet, dignified, respectful, and cogent argument and persuasion. Insult and anger will simply not cut it in a subject that requires so much difficult reasoning.

Talent Scout
"And I will Die deranged"

Well, you have at last written something that I can agree with!

Augustus
"Doesn't increased productivity tend to decrease prices and COSTS together, thereby offsetting the price you have to pay to produce output?"

Generally NO, only somewhat!

"And what is to prevent creditors and debtors in a free market to agree to make repayment in a sum of money adjusted by some agreed upon index number of changes in the value of money, either adjusted for inflation or growth deflation?"

Nothing, but it isn't done ... is your auto loan adjusted for either inflation or deflation? Your long-term FIXED mortgage? Is your salary automatically raised or lowered by the inflation / deflation index? NO! That's where the problem is ... these are much easier to deal with by a stable currency, rather than putting these adjustments into billions of contracts and then trying to enforce them all. That's what MONEY is supposed to do ... provide a convenient means of exchange so we don't have to barter for everything ... whether based on gold or, preferably, the output of the entire economy. Sowell can explain this much more succinctly than I am here, but I don't have to time to carefully draft a succinct explanation.

Nah
jim writes: 2:15 PM
A fracton of a Cubic Mile

talent scout writes: 1:40 PM
Why not just let gold do its job.
=====

Well, what is it’s job, and how does it do it? Just by sitting in a pile in Ft. Knox?
--------
ts:
The job the Constitution demands it be allowed to do jim.
I know you have read the document.
Article one, section 10, clause one.
------
jim writes:
I have read somewhere that all the Gold mined in all of history, is a fraction of a cubic mile. A ton of Gold is a 14.2 inch cube. That means there is much less than 25,000,000 tons of Gold, ever.
------
ts:
Does reading something make it true?
I know you know better than that.
----------
jim writes:
Well they have found trillions of tons of coal, and other metals, trillions of gallons of oil, and find new deposits every once in a while. What if they got to the proper place and found ten billion tons of Gold?
-------
ts:
An illusion to imagine gold is comparable to any of that, first off.
Gold is real money.
Its spends as money in all nations, cities, and cultures.
Oil is not money, its a commodity, same for coal, or gum.
--------
jim writes:
The best use I ever saw of gold was on my Sweetie’s finger, or around her neck. And wow, using our self-described piece-rate payment plan, that was worth more than all the Gold in Ft. Knox.
-----
ts:
Why not a coal necklace jim?
-----------
jim writes:

I spent time at Ft. Knox, and that Gold sure did not help me at all, not nearly as much as a speck of Gold on Sweetie’s finger or neck did for me.
-------
ts:
Does no one any good but the ones who own it.
Who is that?
Well FDR handed it over to the Federal Reserve with a kick start in 1933.
They sure want the gold.
By the way, the bankers like gold as much today as they did in Washington and Jeffersons day.

$50 bill would buy $50 worth of Gold


talent scout writes: Thursday, February, 07, 2008 1:51 PM
Well, its because gold backing has been removed and there is none in the US Treasury for any citizen.

No longer will the government honor the contract that was in effect when that 50 gold backed iou was created.

==============

Not true as far as I was concerned, that 1928 $50 bill, that said it was Gold backed, still bought what $50 of Gold would have bought. I could have bought $50 worth of Gold, or $50 worth of Shredded Wheat. Gold or no Gold, didn’t matter to me.

And since every definition of inflation I have read says nothing about the amount of Gold sitting in a pile somewhere, what is the connection.

If I pay more for something today than I did last year, all the gold in Ft. Knox would change the price of what I bought.


Glad to make it easy for ya
TrueConservative writes: 2:28 PM
Talent Scout
"And I will Die deranged"

Well, you have at last written something that I can agree with!
------
ts:
Cause you certainly make it easy for me to judge you a complete moron.
Now can we just allow this knowledge of our contempt for one another to be set aside and stick to the subject.


freetochoose2321
how do you propose to insure fiscal responsibility when there is nothing to stop the politicos from creating more paper money to pay for whatever freebies their constituents and lobbyists demand of them? Human nature is human nature, how long will we be naive about human nature and simply trust that an indiviual who's livelihood and career are dependent upon satisfying the whims of those that elect him will choose to ignore their pleas for free stuff and not spend?

Where are the other Ft. Knoxs


I have never heard of a “Ft. Knox” in Yugoslavia, or elsewhere, so what did Gold, or the lack thereof, have to do with the following stories?

In Split, Yugoslavia, I stopped for a shoeshine and a shoe lace. The man said 700, so I gave him 1000 dinar, about $3 in 1985. Inflation was terrible. In 1988, our last visit in Split, the same cost in dollars would have been about 42,000 dinar.

We visited Yugoslavia four years. In 1980, 27 dinar to one dollar; — 1985, 330 to the dollar — October 1988, 4,000 to a dollar — June 1989, 14,309 dinar to one dollar.

At the border as we drove from Greece, we exchanged the Italian and Greek money we had left (about $167 worth), and received 2,400,000 Yugoslavian dinar, a thick stack. No way it would fit in my wallet, Sweetie had to carry it in her purse. Later in 1989 it exceeded 100,000 dinar to a dollar.

In the twenty-five years between 1970 and 1995 we received four German D-Marks for a dollar one year, and 1.45 D-Marks per dollar another. Which changed the most, the Dollar or the Mark.

Some years “they” say the dollar is too “high,” other years too “low,” we have never been told it was “just right.”

The real value is how long it took to earn the dollar.

Thank you sir
Augustus, I am not angry, nor even close.
I just responded to the one poster as he did to me first.
I will cease responding to his accusations and judgments of my person.
Sorry
------

Augustus_McRae writes: 2:26 PM
talentscout
Insult and anger will simply not cut it in a subject that requires so much difficult reasoning.

Talent Scout
Who's talking about "contempt". I'm just saying you're WRONG! All the BS in the world isn't going to change that, either!

READ SOWELL's BASIC ECONOMICS and if you have an open mind you'll catch a clue!

Augustus
"how do you propose to insure fiscal responsibility when there is nothing to stop the politicos from creating more paper money to pay for whatever freebies their constituents and lobbyists demand of them? Human nature is human nature, how long will we be naive about human nature ... ?"

It takes an educated electorate to throw their sorry asses out if they debase the economy too much ... an element that is sadly lacking in the output of our liberal schools!

Difficult way to communicate
Compared to speaking one on one.
----------




talent scout writes: 1:51 PM
Well, its because gold backing has been removed and there is none in the US Treasury for any citizen.

No longer will the government honor the contract that was in effect when that 50 gold backed iou was created.

==============
jim writes: 2:41 PM
$50 bill would buy $50 worth of Gold
Not true as far as I was concerned, that 1928 $50 bill, that said it was Gold backed, still bought what $50 of Gold would have bought. I could have bought $50 worth of Gold, or $50 worth of Shredded Wheat. Gold or no Gold, didn’t matter to me.
-------
ts:
1928 it still worked cause we still had the Gold Standard.
Haven't had it since 1971 jim.
----------
jim writes:
And since every definition of inflation I have read says nothing about the amount of Gold sitting in a pile somewhere, what is the connection.
----
ts:
Your question is impossible for me to follow.
----------
jim writes:
If I pay more for something today than I did last year, all the gold in Ft. Knox would change the price of what I bought.
------
ts:
Sorry jim, I am simply not understanding you and cannot reply to this comment.
I do not understand your point.
There is no relationship in costs today and the gold in Fort Knox

See the accusations he sends Augustus
TrueConservative writes: Thursday, February, 07, 2008 2:51 PM
Talent Scout
Who's talking about "contempt". I'm just saying you're WRONG! All the BS in the world isn't going to change that, either!

READ SOWELL's BASIC ECONOMICS and if you have an open mind you'll catch a clue!

----

I will keep my promise and not respond to him.

But everyone can see for themselves the contempt in this post, as the while wondering where it is.



Augustus
We have a separation of the printing (Treasury), the issuing (the Fed) and the spending (Congress and the President) of the money, which is crucial in any country to prevent those who want to spend money from just printing off more of it. Congress doesn't print money to spend it. If Hugo Chavez had had his way a few months back, Venezuela would have had that problem and we undoubtedly would have seen hyperinflation in that country.

Talent Scout
Well, you're truly demonstrating what an idiot you seem determined to prove you are!

The "accusation" you claim I sent to Augustus was to YOU!

As for "contempt", you seem to hold Sowell in contempt without, I would surmise, even reading his book[s]. Can you refute ANYTHING ... no, your arguments seem to consist only of "the founders were economic geniuses". And yet, without the benefit of a gold standard, the US has managed to become the sole superpower in the last 25 years with a wealth and economy far exceeding any other country ... I think it's the next 3 or 4 largest economies COMBINED. But, I guess that lack of a gold standard has really hurt us. Look around and see reality, geez!

Dr. Paul
I continue to see posters negatively reflecting on Dr. Sowell because he doesn't mention a completely irrelevant 'candidate'. If Ron Paul would get more than 10% of ANY state or poll, maybe others would take him seriously. Yes, those few that vote for him think he has a shot at the Republican Presidential Nomination. They are the only ones.

If this grass roots 'movement' was even close to successful, wouldn't he get a few votes here or there? Maybe even 1 delegate? I agree with Ron Paul's economic platform (not his foreign policy)--I just won't waste a vote on a man who has NO POSSIBLE CHANCE OF WINNING.

McRae
Other posters have made the obvious suggestion. It is up the voters to stop re-electing the same idiots year after year. They are not going to vote for term limits and even ones who volunteered fell under the spell of Washington and over-stayed. Tom Coburn is a rare exception, a man of his word. His endorsement of McCain actually means something to me. It does not however totally offset McCain's multiple displays of ignorance and poor judgment.

The public will continue to be oblivious as long as the stock market rallies, interest rates and unemployment are low, taxes are manageable and those that feed at the government trough get their checks. The day of reckoning is coming. Any 8th grader can do the math. There will be an uproar and many will ask, "how can this be? They told me that Social Security had a trust fund full of bonds....blah blah blah..."

Public ignorance plus congressional dishonesty and malfeasance = ticking bomb.

The lack of understanding
right is its own defense writes: 3:10 PM
Augustus
We have a separation of the printing (Treasury), the issuing (the Fed) and the spending (Congress and the President) of the money, which is crucial in any country to prevent those who want to spend money from just printing off more of it. Congress doesn't print money to spend it.
---------
ts:
Is seen all over and through this post.

Here is how it works.
(keep this in mind)
Paper money has had the effect in your State that IT WILL EVER HAVE,to ruin commerce, oppress the honest, and open the door to every species of fraud and injustice.
George Washington to J Bowen, R.I. Jan 9th 1787.

Congress creates a promise to pay, called a Bond.
The Fed takes the Bond and ok's the Treasury to print off the cash that Congress spends.

(this is how easy it is for them and why they can spend at anytime they want.
Having no cash, they give the bankers the power to create it through the US Treasury)

This opens the door as Washington said for ruin, oppression( taxes) and fraud and injustice.
Its based in FRAUD, cause fraud is its father.


Paul's consistency
Ron Paul was elected to office saying that he was in favor of term limits. And he's been there how long...? And he never votes for earmarks, but he's willing to ask for them to be put on to bills. A hypocrite just like the rest of them.

Smile, ok one last post to the *****

TrueConservative writes: Thursday, February, 07, 2008 3:13 PM
Talent Scout
Well, you're truly demonstrating what an idiot you seem determined to prove you are!

The "accusation" you claim I sent to Augustus was to YOU!
--------
No kidding Sherlock


This was ADDRESSED TO Augustus, not you (*****)
talent scout writes: 3:04 PM
See the accusations he sends Augustus

----------
TrueConservative writes: 2:51 PM
Talent Scout
Who's talking about "contempt". I'm just saying you're WRONG! All the BS in the world isn't going to change that, either!

READ SOWELL's BASIC ECONOMICS and if you have an open mind you'll catch a clue!

----
To Augustus I said this:(not u moron)


I will keep my promise and not respond to him.

But everyone can see for themselves the contempt in this post, as the while wondering where it is.


Anthony Thomas
writes, "I don’ care how Dr. Sowell spins it, there are many people in America who are getting unfairly screwed"

1. Dr. Sowell does not spin.

2. I agree that a great many people in America are getting screwed.

3. The difference between you and me is, I know who is screwing me and I decline to vote for them. You do not know who is screwing you and you vote for the person claiming to be able to fix it and then get screwed some more.

This and that, #1


talent scout writes:
Thursday, February, 07, 2008 2:39 PM
========


Article one, section 10, clause one.
(and others) in the Constitution, I do not always understand. How could the amount of Gold that existed in the US in 1776, as modified by all that has been mined since, in all the countries in the world, have anything to do with the price of eggs today?

I don’t care about the price of Gold for Gold’s sake, but I do care about the price of eggs for breakfast’s sake.

========

jim writes:
I have read somewhere that all the Gold mined in all of history, is a fraction of a cubic mile. A ton of Gold is a 14.2 inch cube. That means there is much less than 25,000,000 tons of Gold, ever.
------
ts:
Does reading something make it true?
I know you know better than that.
----

But what is correct, and if you read it someplace, since you are not about to actually weigh the gold yourself, would that make it true.

Do you have an actual number?
=========

jim writes:
What if they got to the proper place and found ten billion tons of Gold?
-------
ts:
An illusion to imagine gold is comparable to any of that,
--------
but the cost of anything is in direct connection with how much of that item exists, and is available. So what happens if they find ten billion tons of gold?

===========

jim writes:
The best use I ever saw of gold was on my Sweetie’s finger, or around her neck. And wow, using our self-described piece-rate payment plan, that was worth more than all the Gold in Ft. Knox.
-----
ts:
Why not a coal necklace jim?

Because it is not pretty, and my Sweetie would not abide by our piece-word agreement for any thing but Gold and Jewels.
==========

This and That #2


talent scout writes: Thursday, February, 07, 2008 2:59 PM
Difficult way to communicate


ts:
Does no one any good but the ones who own it.

Jim: And I own a few specks.
============

that 1928 $50 bill, that said it was Gold backed, still bought what $50 of Gold would have bought.
-------
ts:
1928 it still worked cause we still had the Gold Standard.
Haven't had it since 1971 jim.
-----
But this was in 1989, not 1928, and it still bought $50 worth of stuff.

===========

Give me a definition of inflation that has to do with the amount of Gold sitting in a pile somewhere, what is the connection.
-
ts: says
There is no relationship in costs today and the gold in Fort Knox

I say, And isn’t that why it is stupid to keep it stored? Turn it loose on the open market and see what it is worth.

Wow, if we could enforce a piece-work rate of payment like I had with Sweetie, what a wonderful world it could be.


cavalier973 aught not forget ....
.... that as is every other of those who comprise the Chicago School, Doctor Friedman is, at core, a Keynesian. Doctor Friedman's monetary theory can fairly be argued to be but an extension of the ideas commonly associated with Keynes.

That much, surely, is Black and White.

The functions of money
--
For all of you schmucks voicing the same worn-out, flyblown, idiotic-on-their-face Keynesian arguments against restoring a U.S. currency backed by gold (or any other tangible physical commodity):

What are the functions of money?

There are three.

1) Facilitator of exchange.

It's not always possible to exchange one commodity (or service) for another at the point of interaction. The baker may not need any plumbing work done when the plumber needs a birthday cake. Therefore the plumber does his work for money, then takes the money (as a "lowest common denominator" in the economy) to the baker to exchange it for the cake.

2) Standard of value.

The plumber and the baker might have considerable difficulty determining how much plumbing work (or of what kind) is appropriate to recompense the baker for making and handing over a particular kind of birthday cake. Money allows pricing to happen in the marketplace, with widely disparate services and commodities "finding their level" in terms of demand. Thus the clearing of a sewer outfall might fetch a fee equal to a cake big enough to feed a grade school class.

3) Store of value over time.

The plumber may not need a cake today, but sees a time in a few months when he will. He installs a sink today, holds the money he's paid until the time comes when he wants that cake, and pays it to the baker, his purchasing power preserved over the months.

From this, it can be seen that government debauchment of the currency (devaluation through the issue of unbacked fiat "dollars") directly attacks *ALL* of these functions.

It is an assault upon the *CONCEPT* of money, serving no purpose other than theft of value.

Government "monetary policy" is simply theft.

--

Cannot respond to it all jim
Not enough room
----------

jim writes: 4:14 PM
This and that, #1

----------
talent scout writes:
2:39 PM



Article one, section 10, clause one.


----------
jim writes:

(and others) in the Constitution, I do not always understand.
----

ts:
Original U.S. Constitution
Art. I Sec. 8 Cl. 5
[Congress shall have Power ... ] To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, ...;
Art. I Sec. 10 Cl. 1
[No State shall ...] make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; ...


Congress was originally understood to have no power to make anything legal tender outside of federal territories, under Art. I Sec. 8 Cl. 17 and Art. IV Sec. 3 Cl. 2
--------
jim writes:


How could the amount of Gold that existed in the US in 1776, as modified by all that has been mined since, in all the countries in the world, have anything to do with the price of eggs today?
---------
jim
Please consider the inflation calculator for your answer.
The price of eggs in 1800 was exactly the same price it was in 1944 under the gold standard.

It has risen due to inflation of the Federal Reserve Banking Notes, they are not US Dollars as they are called anyway.
A dozen eggs are still twelve eggs, but it now takes more FRN to buy those 12 eggs.
The eggs are no more valuable, but the paper used to buy them are less valuable.
Thats inflation
-----------



jim writes:
I don’t care about the price of Gold for Gold’s sake, but I do care about the price of eggs for breakfast’s sake.
-------
ts:
As all of us feel the same.

Ask yourself why gold is rising all the while the FRN's are being debased in value all over the world.

SJ Doc
You do a very good job of describing the purpose of money ... then make a giant unsupported leap that gold can accomplish those purposes when historically, it has not. You, like many others who Sowell calls "stage 1" thinkers cannot consider the alternatives and what happens when the supply of gold doesn't grow as rapidly as the supply of goods and services. Of course, THAT is good for the holders of gold, but bad for everybody else.

So, in that situation, does less gold buy that cake than it did when you earned the gold? Nice unless you're paying your mortgage off in the value of "old" gold. Or not too good for your baker if he paid for his flour in "old" gold.

hysterical antagonism toward the gold st
Note the author
This was before he was bribed by the bankers




Gold and Economic Freedom

by Alan Greenspan

Published in Ayn Rand's "Objectivist" newsletter in 1966, and reprinted
in her book, Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal, in 1967.

An almost hysterical antagonism toward the gold standard is one issue
which unites statists of all persuasions. They seem to sense — perhaps
more clearly and subtly than many consistent defenders of laissez-faire
— that gold and economic freedom are inseparable, that the gold standard
is an instrument of laissez-faire and that each implies and requires the
other.

In order to understand the source of their antagonism, it is necessary
first to understand the specific role of gold in a free society.

Money is the common denominator of all economic transactions. It is that
commodity which serves as a medium of exchange, is universally
acceptable to all participants in an exchange economy as payment for
their goods or services, and can, therefore, be used as a standard of
market value and as a store of value, i.e., as a means of saving.

The existence of such a commodity is a precondition of a division of
labor economy. If men did not have some commodity of objective value
which was generally acceptable as money, they would have to resort to
primitive barter or be forced to live on self-sufficient farms and forgo
the inestimable advantages of specialization. If men had no means to
store value, i.e., to save, neither long-range planning nor exchange
would be possible.

Read it all:
http://www.constitution.org/mon/greenspan_gold.txt

talent scout writes:
"Note the author
This was before he was bribed by the bankers"

Note that this was written BEFORE the deregulation of the price of gold.


jim writes:

Give me a definition of inflation that has to do with the amount of Gold sitting in a pile somewhere, what is the connection.
-
ts: says
There is no relationship in costs today and the gold in Fort Knox
----------


jim writes:
I say, And isn’t that why it is stupid to keep it stored? Turn it loose on the open market and see what it is worth.
----
ts:
Just lately some have complained about the US Treasury audits, concerning the Gold in Fort Knox.

Volumes of articles, books have been written about the Gold there.
If it is still there, which some question, loudly.

The transfer of US Gold is documented during Roosevelts sell out to bankers.
http://www.usagold.com/ontheroleofgold.html


An Ottoman warning for indebted America
By Niall Ferguson
The writer is a professor at Harvard University and Harvard Business School and a senior fellow of the Hoover Institution, Stanford
Published: January 1 2008 18:37



http://www.ft.com/cms/s/6667a18a-b888-11dc-893b-0000779fd2a c.html

WHY is IT, that Americans can understand how Reagon could win the Cold War using Economics and WIN it, YET not understand how the same method is being USED against this country NOW????

Correction
WHY is IT, that Americans can understand how Reagan could win the Cold War using Economics and WIN it, YET not understand how the same method is being USED against this country NOW????

Note the switch of horses
5:27 PM
talent scout writes:
"Note the author
This was before he was bribed by the bankers"
---------

skiddles writes:
Note that this was written BEFORE the deregulation of the price of gold.

---------
Note how he switched from being against the Statists/communists/mensheviks/socialists/reds/progressives/collectivists/anti-American bankers and joined them.


economy,economics,etc.
Since romney dropped out, and paul will not win anything, we are headed for some real interesting times...maybe disaster!?
Oh excuse me we are going to be in good shape..on the GOP side..we have a guy who admits
he's a dummy in economics (mc cain) and obama who is going to tax us 50% increase, and hillary who is determined to take from the earners and give it to the slugs! The comminist queen!
Iam saying good bye...and talent scout..even tho we didnt see eye to eye on romney..i enjoyed your talks on money....and the dreamboat! take care..forever..
elvis

Wee bit of confusion
jim writes:
What if they got to the proper place and found ten billion tons of Gold?
-------
ts:
An illusion to imagine gold is comparable to any of that,

[above is copy and pasted and mis applied, jim.]

That was directed to the mention of coal etc comparing that to gold.



--------
jim writes:
but the cost of anything is in direct connection with how much of that item exists, and is available. So what happens if they find ten billion tons of gold?

-------
ts:
Not true jim.

Using the inflation calculator, the costs of goods and service went down from 1800 to 1913.
Giving the owners of US Dollars MORE purchasing power.


here:
What cost $1.00 in 1800 would cost $0.58 in 1913.

Try it yourself
http://www.westegg.com/inflation/infl.cgi

Always loved elvis
But he always gave me some sadness in how mixed up he was with real life.
---------
elvis writes: 5:49 PM

Iam saying good bye...and talent scout..even tho we didnt see eye to eye on romney..i enjoyed your talks on money....and the dreamboat! take care..forever..
---------
ts:
Guess it runs in the family name my friend, smile.
Love ya elvis

More and more of nothing much


talent scout writes: Thursday, February, 07, 2008 4:55 PM
Cannot respond to it all jim

Ask yourself why gold is rising all the while the FRN's are being debased in value all over the world.

----------

That’s easy to answer, because there are a thousand advertisements on TV and Radio each day by people who have Gold for Sale. If they really believed what they are saying, why would they sell it, rather than just keep it for themselves until the price went up a lot more?

Obviously because the price will rise only if more people buy Gold, not if more people hoard Gold.

============

And I would still like to now why all that Gold is in Ft. Knox. And remember, the same people who say it is no longer there, never have any proof. And if it is not still there, where is it?

If it was put for sale on Ebay, or in a Jewelry store, you would know it. And if it is not worth while for the US to hoard it, why is it worth while for anyone else to hoard it.

And if the US gave away the Gold in Ft. Knox, why doesn’t anyone really know for sure? And if they sold it, what happened to the money paid for it, and to the Gold that someone paid for?

I still don’t understand all, or even a tiny part of, this Gold mess.

TruCon - Like so many others...
--
...you have lived with the presumption of inflation (or, more precisely, the government's continuing malfeasant debauchment of the currency) that you cannot understand the nature of an economy that doesn't have to factor this malignancy into every transaction.

You object to:

"...what happens when the supply of gold doesn't grow as rapidly as the supply of goods and services. Of course, THAT is good for the holders of gold, but bad for everybody else."

Only if "everybody else" expects the currency supply to expand at a rate equal to (or, as today, much more rapidly than) the rate at which economic productivity rises.

Those who hate and fear the gold standard (or any other commodities-based system that restrains the issue of currency in a manner independent of political whim or financiers' machinations) are invariably going to be debtors, who wish to borrow currency that has high purchasing power today and then repay it a later time with debauched dollars, effectively thieving away much of the value of their loans' principle.

Look into the "Free Silver" movement for some insight.

You expect to be able to pay your mortage off in cheaper dollars as the years pass, decreasing your burden of payment as inflation works in your favor.

What you fail to understand is that when the dollar depreciates in value less rapidly (as it must when the government cannot benefit from the fiat issue of counterfeit currency), the lender must bargain down his interest rates, else he will not be able to lend and thus gain increase on his investment.

You are obviously too young to remember "mortgage burning parties" (as I do), and too lazy to dig into even fairly recent history.

You swim in the water and cannot even taste the pollution.

--

Income disparity is a good thing
Government can only make you equally poor, so if the disparity between the richest and the poorest truly is increasing, that would be one indication that this might still be a land with some opportunity to rise above your current level. Unfortunately, that requires some preparation and work, but it is not yet impossible to succeed. http://www.poorgrandchildren.com

Things have changed jim
The physical moving of gold is un-neccessary.
No longer important in whose vault it rests in, only who it has been assigned to.

So it really does not matter if the gold is in Fort Knox or not.

You like to read informative articles?
http://www.usagold.com/ontheroleofgold.html

Gold in the world economy today is even more important than ever before as a growing threat to the rulers of a paper empire.


The role of gold was central in the creation of the BIS. The new bank was authorized to "arrange with central banks to have gold earmarked for their account and transferable on their order, to open accounts through which central banks could transfer their assets from one currency to another and to take such measures as the Board might think advisable within the limits of the powers granted. . . . Therefore the BIS was ready to lend gold without delay. . ."(5) That meant that gold transfers from one central bank to another could be made quite swiftly and did not have to lag behind physical transfers.

Addendum
talent scout writes: 7:53 PM
Things have changed jim
The physical moving of gold is un-neccessary.
No longer important in whose vault it rests in, only who it has been assigned to.

So it really does not matter if the gold is in Fort Knox or not.
What matters is who owns it.
You asked why it just sets there and no being used.
I am saying it is being used..by someone, just NOT US Americans.


This amounts to a Kingly decree.
(unconstitutional)
Executive Order, President Roosevelt declared on April 5, 1933 that:

"All persons are hereby required to deliver on or before May 1, 1933, to a Federal Reserve Bank or a branch or agency thereof or to any member bank of the Federal Reserve System all gold coin, gold bullion and gold certificates now owned by them."


21 million ounces of gold 'disappeared' in the three months before FDR's gold confiscation. To where did it disappear?

http://www.fgmr.com/confiscation.htm

Let's have an honest argument
The claim from Dr. Sowell is income disparity is not happening. People move income brackets all the time.

Why would Dr. Sowell make the case there is income mobility? He does so because stagnation is a problem.

If income mobility is important, then mobility in wealth accumulation is even more important. Wealth is power; we started this country to stop intergenerational power transfers. So I ask Dr. Sowell to be honest in his argument, and show that wealth is not being cornered.

I think he will have a difficult time doing this. There is a strong correlation between wealth and inheritance.

paper is the ghost of money




talent scout writes: 4:55 PM


Ask yourself why gold is rising all the while the FRN's are being debased in value all over the world.

----------
jim writes: 6:30 PM
That’s easy to answer, because there are a thousand advertisements on TV and Radio each day by people who have Gold for Sale.
-------
ts:
How does that explain the devaluing of the Federal Reserve Notes?
Why would buying gold have anything to do with the debasement of the FRN's?
Why would buying gold cause countries around the world turn to the Euro or some other Currency for its reserves?

Gold is not given value by paper.

Paper is given value by gold.

(once was before Nixon floated it. Now its fully given value by the faith of the American people...and what the Private group of bankers at the Fed says its worth)
---------
jim writes:
If they really believed what they are saying, why would they sell it, rather than just keep it for themselves until the price went up a lot more?
------
ts:
Same reason that has always been gold backed dollars. As the Gold Certificates.

Paper is easier to buy other hard assets with.
Simple

-------
jim writes:
Obviously because the price will rise only if more people buy Gold, not if more people hoard Gold.
------
Show me a time in the history of the world gold lost its value.
I can show you many many examples of paper losing its value.
One is the Confederate Dollar.
Well, the FRN's have exactly the same value as the Confederate Dollar has, none of an intrinsic value as gold does.
And always will.

This is a fact in what the FRN's are worth

given value by the faith of the American people...and what the Private group of bankers at the Fed says its worth

Gold in Fort Knox
Much of it was actually sold when we were trying to stay on the gold standard but our economy was sliding downhill. We said that a dollar was worth X amount of gold, and when on the open market it was trading for less than that, people bought dollars and sold them to the Fed in exchange for gold. This gold came from somewhere, and some of it was from Fort Knox. The rapid depletion of our gold reserves due to our ailing economy is what forced us to abandon the gold standard...

Coinage Act of 1792
Set the value of money, just as the US Constitution says is the duty of Congress to do.

SEC. 9. And be it further enacted, That there shall be from time to time struck and coined at the said mint, coins of gold, silver, and copper, of the following denomination, values and descriptions, viz.

Eagles—each to be of the value of ten dollars or units, and to contain two hundred and forty-seven grains and four eighths of a grain of pure, or two hundred and seventy grains of standard gold. Half Eagles—each to be of the value of five dollars, and to contain one hundred and twenty-three grains and six eighths of a grain of pure, or one hundred and thirty-five grains of standard gold.

FDR disobeyed the US Constitution when he re-valued the money by a decree.
Totally a responsibility of Congress, not a President.

"FDR devalued the dollar by 69.3%. Before this devaluation, it took 20.67 dollars to exchange for one ounce of gold. After the devaluation, it took 35 dollars in exchange for that same ounce."

FDR's real objective is explained in a 1966 essay entitled "Gold and Economic Freedom" written by Alan Greenspan. "The abandonment of the gold standard made it possible for the welfare statists to use the banking system as a means to an unlimited expansion of credit."

Greenspan then goes on to say: "The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves. This is the shabby secret of the welfare statists' tirades against gold. Deficit spending is simply a scheme for the confiscation of wealth. Gold stands in the way of this insidious process. It stands as a protector of property rights. If one grasps this, one has no difficulty in understanding the statists' antagonism toward the gold standard."




reply to talent scout ROFLMAO
So Alan Greenspan can write that gold is a "commodity of objective value," eh? And I know that Ayn Rand believed in such nonsense.

Historically, gold has been valued by human beings because it is (a) pretty, (b) relatively scarce, and (c) does not react with most chemicals. (c) is at least explainable by reference to sicentific facts, none of which points to any "objective value."

The "value" of something that truly had "objective value" would inhere in that thing regardless of what human beings believe or know. Once we realize this, then gold is at best a standard relying on mysticism, and neither science nor rational philosophy.

Gold is valuable because it has been believed by human beings to be valuable--and I can already hear the Objectivists cranking up their arsenal of Randian insults to hurl in my direction.

If human beings believe fiat money to be valuable, then it is valuable.

Should we go back to the gold standard? Only if we want to.




Gestell , giggle giggle, laugh, snort
Hehaw tehee ha ha.

"Gold stands in the way of this insidious process. It stands as a protector of property rights. If one grasps this, one has no difficulty in understanding the statists' antagonism toward the gold standard."


Now, here is how to make bread

http://www.wikihow.com/Make-Bread-from-Scratch

Gold
Posters have once again so distorted a meaning as to make it unrecognizeable. It matters not what constitutes value, only the buyers and sellers determine that. Arguements about the gold standard ended before the last world war and was put to bed by Nixon. All of these arguements are academic.

Gold does not fill a hungry belly. The Judeo-Christian work ethic is an example of value. And how do you determine that value? Everyone has an opinion. Quit calling each other names, you posters sound like communists or Democratic party wannabees.



edwardo - -
"we started this country to stop intergenerational power transfers."

We did? That's news to me.

I'm pretty sure the Founders had their own kids in their wills.



"There is a strong correlation between wealth and inheritance."

There is a stronger correlation between wealth and working harder and smarter than the competition. Unless there is some sort of annuity set up, generally speaking, any wealth created by an innovative and hard-working individual is squandered completely by the third generation.

Most of the wealthy in this country got their riches by working for it and building it themselves, virtually from scratch. We have many first-generation millionaires.

The old "inherited wealth" bug-a-boo is just another standard liberal class-envy argument, with no real-world data to back it up.

How about some proof
Unca Alby makes a lot of claims. Let's see the proof.

Regarding intergenerational power transfer, yes, we threw off the monarchy in the revolution. I think most people understand what that is and what that means.

We decided a Democracy is better, and wanted no king.

How about some proof!!
Edwardo makes a lot of claims. Let's see the proof.

http://www.trythinking.net


Oh, now I get it..
so, the laptop computer I just bought for $632 ( tax included ) would have cost about 20 bucks in the 1800's. That's incredible.

reply to talent scout
Now this is what I call conservative argumentation:

quote from talent scout: "giggle giggle, laugh, snort Hehaw tehee ha ha."




You do not give gold anything
anderson659 writes: 1:22 AM
Gold
Posters have once again so distorted a meaning as to make it unrecognizeable.
It matters not what constitutes value, only the buyers and sellers determine that.
------

ts:
Same can be said of oil.
Electricity and a multiple sorting of everything that is bought and sold.

Gold is the medium, the mediator to seal the agreement a buyer and the seller determine.
Its real money

------------

anderson659 writes:


Arguements about the gold standard ended before the last world war and was put to bed by Nixon. All of these arguements are academic.
-------
ts:
Want to bet?
---------

anderson659 writes:
Gold does not fill a hungry belly.
------
ts:
Gold is not food, but it will buy you some



You put me in a happy mood
Gestell writes: 1:35 PM
reply to talent scout
Now this is what I call conservative argumentation:

quote from talent scout: "giggle giggle, laugh, snort Hehaw tehee ha ha."
------------

ts:
I got beside myself didn't I.
I lost it when you made me laugh too hard.
Can you forgive me?
Well, if not, at least you can agree not to get me laughing again with this sort of posts below.
--------



Gestell writes: Thursday, February, 07, 2008 9:50 PM
reply to talent scout ROFLMAO

This hits on the major problem
We have today with a privately owned banking corporation setting the value of its printed paper.
Federal Reserve Notes.

----------

anderson659 writes: 1:22 AM
Gold

It matters not what constitutes value, only the buyers and sellers determine that.
-----

What you are describing is barter.
Not what we are talking about with the use of paper or gold.

Gold has a built in value system, no man gives it anything.
Its value is inherent, its called intrinsic value.
No buyer and no seller in America determines anything as to the value of the Federal Reserve banking Notes.

The bankers control that, with armies if they need them.

This is in direct conflict with the United Stats of America's Constitution.

Which document says nothing about bankers controlling the value of money.
Nor does it mention anything about bankers controlling the issue of money.

It does say Congress is to do both.

Now, for me, that alone is a problem that needs correction.
As greater men than I seen and could not stop it either, due to American ignorance how bankers are robbing this nation.

"Most Americans have no real understanding of the operation of the international money lenders. The accounts of the Federal Reserve System have never been audited. It operates outside the control of Congress and manipulates the credit of the United States" -- Sen. Barry Goldwater (Rep. AR)

The Fed does allow some audit, but it amounts to auditing one McDonalds Restaurant, and never Corporate Headquarters.

Boone
Google "inflation calculator" and have some fun. It works for all years 1800 to 2007 and instantly converts amounts.


Hello Cyclist
Once upon a time many years ago in univesity housing a man was our neighbor. He got a PhD in economics. After a while he was named an Ambassador, and later he became President of a large university. As far as I know, he has never run a business. But somehow I think he would know more about economics than a man with one year of community college who runs a U-Haul franchise. Your suggestion that running a business is requisite to an understanding of economics is ridiculous.

Gestell - ''Gold is valuable..."
--
...says Gestell, "...because it has been believed by human beings to be valuable--and I can already hear the Objectivists cranking up their arsenal of Randian insults to hurl in my direction."

Oh, there's no need to fall back on Rand (or even a former Randroid, like Greenspan) to handle your fumblenuttery.

Gold is *USEFUL* in fulfilling the three functions of money (facilitator of exchange, standard of value, and store of value) because it meets market criteria of utility in all three roles as other intermediary commodities do not.

What is an "intermediary commodity," now?

Well, you've seen wartime and post-World War II movies in which cigarettes become a transactional commodity. Remember *Stalag 17*? Cigarettes are a relatively poor choice (they can decay or be ruined by wetting them, and they are valuable chiefly in their consumption) but when other types of intermediary commodities are unavailable or forbidden - as in a prison or a society under strict economic regulation - they come into use because of the market demand for such a commodity.

Gold works much better because its scarcity enables small amounts to represent relatively high levels of value in terms of goods and services, and its physical and chemical properties render it particularly useful in coinage.

Similar "precious metals" (silver, platinum) are useful for the same basic reasons.

Were it not for "legal tender" laws (which "regulate" the U.S. citizen in much the same way that economic regulations forced European citizens to fall back on the use of cigarettes as an intermediary commodity during World War II and the years immediately following), currencies composed of precious metals would be in wide use alongside U.S. Federal Reserve notes.

Which are "legal tender" by fiat (i.e., government regulation) but not lawful money.

Indeed, they were never intended as such.

--

OH MY GOD!!!! OH MY GOD!!!!
I cannot believe this!!!!
I am the one who asked the question to Thomas Sowell!!!!
AND LOOK!!!
He wrote an article.
I almost fainted when I saw the article and it mentioned my question.
Thank you Thomas Sowell.
You just gave me a lifetime of bragging rights to all my friends!!!
He is one of my heroes and idols since childhood.
He is brilliant.
I love this guy even more now.
Gianluca (NYC)

Gianluca .Then don't be such a stranger.
Gia...We need to hear more of people like you! :)

Only congress is to coin money
So forget the problems with the federal reserve folks. It's the U.S. MINT that is the problem. Those congressmen ( and women ) are supposed to be busy coining money. The gold and silver can be delivered to the capitol and they can run the coin stamps all day and night. Further study will be required before we can allow them to also physically run the printing presses for paper money. The constitution only seems to allow for "coins". Perhaps this is one of those "legislating from the bench" where the evil Supremes will declare the "penumbra" of the word coin includes printing paper money, but I doubt it. I need to check with some senile M.D. in Texas to get a ruling on that.

boone - Indeed
--
Were the Congress to direct the Department of the Treasury to re-institute the coinage of dollar-denominated precious metals (instead of the base metal tokens that the mints have been issuing since 1963) and repealed the "legal tender" laws that forbid the circulation of lawful money of the United States in competition with the dollar-demoninated Federal Reserve Notes uttered by the various private-sector banks of the Federal Reserve system, these coins would act as a check upon the debauchment of the U.S. currency that is daily perpetrated by the Federal Reserve.

We've had the gadarene inflationary issue of paper and checkbook currency before. Prior to the New Deal confiscatory unconstitutionality of that rank traitor, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, the private sector met "Greenback Inflation" and similar swinish tactics of the Federal Government by building "gold clauses" into contracts to help ensure that in part or in whole, reconciliation of value in business transactions could be denominated in predictably fixed quantities of gold as an alternative to payment in devalued dollars.

Few people note that when FDR issued his executive order confiscating the nation's gold supply, he also nullified and thereinafter criminalized all such contractual "gold clause" provisions.

Why?

Because he knew that his effort to rape the nation's currency would be effectively counterbalanced by the private sector's free-market efforts to maintain stable and honest standards of business conduct.

As a Wilson-administration "progressive," FDR knew too damned well that his *REAL* enemy wasn't the Republican Party.

It was the freedom of the American people he had to destroy.

And he pulled it off.

--

Gold Standard Anyone?
Dr. Sowell how many times do you have to explain this phenomena, please, could one of your next articles cut thru the BS.

Dr Sowell
Please do as Bigbelly requests, and while doing so explain for me how the present system is better.

And then explain how the Federal Reserve Bankers are more caring for America than the Founding Fathers were, who demanded gold and silver be the lawful legal tender, and outlawed paper fiat money for the US Government.
And why they were so ignorant about this subject.

Perhaps you could even explain why allowing Bankers to rule American Economy is best for everyone.
And explain why giving Government the bankers credit card of fiat money limits government expansion and budget.

Here is what we get w/fiat paper
Bankers get the complete control over the income of every single working American citizen.

They have gained this power over us through the agreements made,to give the bankers of the Federal Reserve Banking Corporation a full fledged partnership with the Federal Government of the United States.

Due to this partnership the Bankers have INORDINATE POWER (quoting Alan Greenspan on this) over our economy.

Where in the US Constitution is there any room for the Federal Government to take in a partnership with a private corporation into the running of America?

Talk about a conflict of interests, no greater one can be seen.

Maybe T Sowell can point the particular justification for the joining of a private group of businessmen to run America.
Seeing that money runs everything in this life.

Or he can explain for me at least, why the US Constitution is no longer needed to Unite Americans and we need private businessmen owning such powers.

Without this power given to the bankers, there would be no income tax whatsoever.
Why is it better to have the government and businessmen profit off of all citizens labors and own us by the "rule of law".
The rules they make up to benefit their ownselves, which is what the rule of law amounts to.
Do away with the bankers controlling the economy, and we rid America of the IRS and the Income Tax.
The Graduated Income Tax of Karl Marx inspiration.
Is Karl Marx one of our Founding Fathers too?
Well with this system we have now, he is.

Another good one Thomas!
Keep telling us the truth. Maybe someday the public will get it.

BOBC says . . .
Nothing. What claims are you referring to?
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