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Tuesday, October 23, 2007
Thomas Sowell :: Townhall.com Columnist
Prestige Versus Education
by Thomas Sowell
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High school seniors who want to go to a selective college in the fall of 2008 should already be making arrangements to take the tests they will need before they apply ahead of the deadlines for such schools, which are usually in January or February.

One of the consequences of taking these tests is that, if you do well, you may be deluged with literature from colleges and universities all across the country.

Some students may feel flattered that Harvard, Yale or M.I.T. seems to be dying to have them apply. But the brutal reality is that the reason for wanting so many youngsters to apply is so that they can be rejected.

Why? Because the prestige ranking of a college or university as a "selective" institution is measured by how small a percentage of its applicants are accepted. So they have to get thousands of young people to apply, so that they can be rejected.

While we are on the subject of reality and prestige, one of the tragic misconceptions of many students and their parents is that you have to go to a prestigious, big-name academic institution to really get ahead and reach the top.

Some students get sunk deep into depression when they are notified in April that they have been rejected by some Ivy League school that they had their heart set on. When they are accepted, some parents go deep into debt to finance the education of their offspring at the college of their dreams.

Seldom is either reaction warranted.

Stop and think: What is an academic institution's prestige based on?

Academic prestige is based mostly on the research achievements of the faculty. Places like Harvard or Stanford have many professors who are among the leading experts in their respective fields, including some who have won Nobel Prizes.

Good for them. But is it good for you, if you are a student at Prestige U.?

Big-name professors are unlikely to be teaching you freshman English or introductory math. Some may not be teaching you anything at all, unless and until you go on to postgraduate study.

In other words, the people who generated the prestige which attracted you to the college may be seen walking about the campus but are less likely to be seen standing in front of your classroom when you begin your college education.

Lower level courses are usually left to be taught by junior faculty members or even graduate students. Yet these courses are often the foundation on which higher level courses are built.

If you don't really master introductory calculus, physics or economics, you are unlikely to do well in higher level courses which presuppose that you already have a foundation on which they can build.

By contrast, at a small college without the prestige of big-name research universities, the introductory courses which provide a foundation for higher courses are more likely to be taught by experienced professors who are teachers more so than researchers.

Maybe that is why graduates of such colleges often go on to do better than the graduates of big-name research universities.

You may never have heard of Harvey Mudd College but a higher percentage of its graduates go on to get Ph.D.s than do the graduates of Harvard, Yale, Stanford or M.I.T. So do the graduates of Grinnell, Reed, and various other small colleges.

Of the chief executive officers of the 50 largest American corporations surveyed in 2006, only four had Ivy League degrees. Some -- including Michael Dell of Dell computers and Bill Gates of Microsoft -- had no degree at all.

Apparently getting into Prestige U. is not the life or death thing that some students or their parents think it is.

Unfortunately, prestige rankings are so hyped in the media -- especially by U.S. News & World Report magazine -- that many people think that is how to choose a college.

What you really want is not the "best" college but the college that fits you best. For that, you need in-depth information, not statistical rankings. For such information, you could start looking up colleges in the 900-page guide, "Choosing the Right College." After that, campus visits would be in order.

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Thomas Sowell is a senior fellow at the Hoover Institute and author of The Housing Boom and Bust.
 
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Me Too
I applied to MIT for undergraduate studies (back in 1964). I was rejected. I didn't take it badly, and I went to a decent local private college, Tulane University in New Orleans, where I got a fair deal, particularly in math.

Eventually I applied for admission to a total of five fairly prestigious graduate schools in physics--- having been rejected by such a school as MIT I thought it would be difficult to get into such graduate schools.

However I soon found myself offered admission to all five: SUNY Stony Brook (then prestigious in physics), Univ. Cal. Berkeley, Univ. of Mich., Yale and Stanford.

I chose the latter, and did eventually get a Ph.D. there in physics.

I AM WRITING TO TESTIFY THAT EVERY THING THAT DR. SOWELL SAYS IN THIS ARTICLE IS ABSOLUTELY CORRECT.

At Stanford the employee manual for faculty of the late 1970's boldly stated that prospects for advancement, for tenure, were to be based primarily on what members of the candidate's field of research who were not at Stanford thought of the candidate. In other words, what prestige the candidate could bring to the University. Getting an award for teaching excellence was the kiss of death for anyone hoping for tenure.

I was a teaching assistant, for undergraduate laboratories. I am writing to testify that the professors for whom I worked showed up at the teaching laboratories only part of the time. Experiments done there were designed and apparatuses were constructed entirely by hired, non-Ph.D. staff.

I essentially coasted there on what I had learned as an undergraduate at Tulane. After the first three quarters of graduate school I basically learned absolutely nothing from my professors, although it took nearly a decade for me to get my Ph.D. I was simply a low-paid laboratory worker on my "professor"'s government grant project.

Prestige Schools
I agree with Dr. Sowell that students do not need to go to prestige schools. But, if you are going to another school make sure that you do extra homework. Many of the lesser schools will take anyone who breathes. Many of these "students" are not known for their study habits. I taught freshman chemistry at a community college, and I had trouble getting the students to do any homework. I had a student make the following comment: "I was told to come to a community college because it was cheaper and easier." I replied, "you do not want easier because if you go over to the university you want to be at the same level as those students."

I believe that the top students in any school will compete well with other top students in other schools. However, the difference comes in when you start dealing with students that are not top students.

If you are not going to go to a "prestige" school for under graduate work, please make sure that you go to a prestige school for graduate work. I received my doctorate in chemistry from Texas Tech University several years ago and I have not been able to secure suitable employment. I really doubt I would of be having employment problems if I would of went to Texas A&M, University of Texas, University of Colorado, or any other top tier school in chemistry. I have always been one that did the extra homework, and spent more time in the laboratory than was needed.

Good luck in your education pursuits.

Prestige High School ???
I loved this article...reminded me of something I watched earlier. It was a news story on public VS private high school. http://www.connectwithkids.com

Same debate...different schools!

tericee -- guidance counceling
"It had never even occurred to me to apply to a school like MIT, nor had my guidance counsellor suggested it."

I've spoken with a consultant who specializes in helping kids get the best scholarship packages. I must say that where I'm familiar with what he was talking about, my experience jibes neatly with what he says, so I think I can trust his opinion.

In particular: guidance counselors are, by and large, fairly horrible at giving advice for getting into college. They're only interested in getting you out of high school.

I'm reminded of the old adage: "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach."

Then the add-on: "Those who can't teach, administrate."

Then my personal addition: "Those who can't administrate, go into guidance counseling."

afriKa -- you missed the point
The point is not that MIT is not a great place to study. The point is to find the place that's the best fit for YOU.

If you don't make it to MIT, it's not the end of the world. Indeed, other places are probably a better fit for most people.

Ok, you went to MIT and loved it -- GOOD FOR YOU! In the meantime, don't belittle those who ended up at University of Podunk. Ok, fine, maybe they didn't "rub shoulders" with any of your distinguished buddies. Possibly they were too busy learning what they needed to know. Possibly they were "rubbing shoulders" with equally intelligent students who just didn't happen to be on any big-shot's speed-dial.

quoth: "(actually, they did a very SOCIALIST thing and simply changed me a lower tuition, because my family wasn't well off. Bully for them!)"

Private charity is NOT SOCIALISM.

I guess that's one thing rubbing shoulders with the High and Mighty didn't teach you.

Well, Sort Of...
You absolutely CAN succeed if you don't attend a high-ranking college; no argument there. Judging by who is a CEO is a bit odd, though... you don't need research skills to make a lot of money or run a corporation. Why go to college at all then?

Having attended two such schools (undergrad and PhD), I can tell you that the author completely misses the point. For undergrad, you are NOT paying for fancy faculty, but to rub shoulders with really superb students who can think, achieve and challenge you. You are going to be able to hear great minds that come to visit and lecture. You are going to hear Nobel prizewinners teach pretty much all the time. You can't get that at a wee school in the middle of nowhere, even if you CAN get taught calculus just as well.

I'd not trade my time at MIT (8 years) for anything in the world. It made me who I am. I met hundreds of really extraordinary people who challenged me every day, and professors whose ideas had transformed their fields. It was worth the few extra thousand (actually, they did a very SOCIALIST thing and simply changed me a lower tuition, because my family wasn't well off. Bully for them!) If my kid got in there or got a free ride at a less "prestigious" place, I'd mortgage my house to pay for the difference.

JFP and Jeffrey
Thanks for both of your responses to my post. :)

JFP, you make a very good point that I might have had a great experience at a local college as well. It's all in who you seek out and learn from. I still think I have more astronaut friends than I would have had I gone to UMD or VaTech. Of course, that might be the Air Force connection, and not MIT. ;-)

Jeffrey, I agree 90% with your suggestion that students can save money if they transfer to an expensive school after a couple of years of a cheaper education. Those students should definitely do their homework first so they don't end up disappointed by a strict transfer policy. MIT, as an example, takes only a handful of transfer students each year. (I met only one during my four years there.) I don't know the policy at other schools, but some might be similar. In the case of these schools, it might be wise to do well at a smaller, less expensive school and then come to the prestige school for a Master's, which should be cheaper since it takes (on average) two, rather than four, years.

I agree 100% with your alternative idea though. (Caveat: while we're engaged in the Global War on Terror, this is not as benign a decision as it seemed to be when I was young!) As you say, a couple or three years in the military can really help a person learn who they are and what they believe before entering the rosy world of today's academia. In addition, the GI bill can help to pay some of those college bills!

Coast Guard Academy
The Coast Guard Academy is one of the toughest schools to get into.

And the quality of the curriculum is undisputed, as seen by the service of its graduates.

I didn’t retire until I was almost 50
The few months I spent in a University was so boring, I couldn’t stand it. As it turned out, there was no educational mill where I could have learned what I did for a living all my payroll years, computers.

MIT had the Whirlwind, I spent a few weeks there, UCLA had the SWAC, I was there a dozen times, and RAND Corp. had the JOHNNIAC, and I worked there for a few years. I had a friend who taught a class on computers at UCLA. When he couldn’t make it, I was his substitute. Therefore I say I taught more college classes than I attended.

My brother, a Ph.D. college professor for nearly 50 years, says my brain was not cluttered with the things they teach in college, so it was available to accept and process new ideas about computers. I’ll agree with that! Wait a minute, did he mean my brain was empty?

Since my formal education consists of 2 years at Cove High, after getting up early to help milk 50 cows at a dairy, no one can imagine how I was able to work so successfully in the computer industry.

One of my computers was used to develop the CAT scan. Others were at Cal Tech, Jet Propulsion Lab, U of Calif., McDonnell Douglas Aircraft, an Electric Co., a Telephone Co., Insurance Co., and many more.

Oh my, after all that I didn’t retire until I was almost 50, my Ph.D. brother was teaching when he was in his 70s.

Mandatory volunteerism!
A symptom of the academic rot on our college campuses may be found in the seemingly innocuous area of 'progressive volunteerism'. Enter the oxymoronic world of mandatory volunteerism.
---------------end of excerpt--------------------

http://voice.townhall.com

As a recent Grad...
I finally completed my college degree (online - Colorado Technical University)in Project Management at the ripe old age of 59. Sending young people off to college may not be the best overall choice, and their entering the work world first may position them to do better both in gaining an education and in their careers. In my case as a plus, my company has decided to pick up the total cost of my master's degrees in BA and Project Management...an astronomical savings to me, and I get to work while I attend, applying what I'm learning in the real world while learning it!

Prodigy is dead on
I earned my Ph.D. from a prestigious, very expensive private school in the South. Taught some classes there. What a crock. Liberal arts students are not one iota better than those I've taught in community colleges or 4 year public schools. "Prestige higher education" is one of the BIGGEST sleazoid scams around. Arguably it might impart better connections socially, but that will become less and less a factor if America is forced to become more competitive globally -- since ability will come to outweight such meaningless factors.

That said, there might be a difference in the hard sciences and economics. But in the social sciences and liberal arts? B.S. Hell, I've gotten where I gag when I hear some "professor" gush about the prestgie of some school. It tells me that in all likelihood the students will be half as smart as they think they are and the institution is almost definitely scamming the public out of research and loan funds.

WAKE UP AMERICA. Send your kids to the kinds of places Dr. Sowell references. They'll thank you for it later.

It's different for Grad School
High-ranking is the way to go for Law School. If you can’t even get in to the top 100 schools then why do we need your legal services? They ought to eliminate the 4th tier schools—we’re already glutted with lawyers and don’t need to scrape more up from the bottom of the barrel schools whose names you can’t even pronounce.

In grad schools prestige matters much more than undergrad. You’re competing against smarter people and the prestigious profs are actually teaching the classes. I speak from experience.

As for undergrad schools, Sowell gives us yet again on the money.

The Harvard Kennedy School of Government is a sham for another article. To paraphrase another “it’s where mediocre students pay exorbitant tuition so they can say they went to Harvard”.

I doubt that ...
... any minority applicants are rejected just to make the schools' numbers look good.

College: Best years of your life
I was a college professor for 25 years. Some of the best lessons you learn in college are outside the classroom. I would tell my undergrads, "you will look back and see this as some of the best times of your life." They would groan and say, "no way." Years later they would all tell me I was right. Interaction with fellow students is nearly as important as college classes. Learning to think clearly, critically and building a BS filter is important. You can learn something from everyone, but you have to be able to filter the good from the bad.

Chapman
They have made so many improvements since I graduated that my best friend frequently jokes, "I hope everybody thinks we graduated from here!"

Arts and Sciences badly need revamping so the next generation can educate the current upcoming bosses, who cannot read, write, spell, punctuate or reason. Once all us secretaries retire, the business world will become a comedy show unless Arts and Sciences supplies more clasically educated secretaries right away.

AudiR10
"But my degree is from Chapman University in California, a prestigious school with plenty of well connected students and famous names."

Go Chapman! They hired somewhat recently (2 years ago?) a new provost who is not only a dynamic administrator but a wonderful teacher, Dr. Daniele Struppa. He turned around the College of Arts and Sciences as Dean at George Mason University (Fairfax, VA) during his tenure there. He is one of the best teachers and advisors I've ever had. You all are lucky to have him there.

AudiR10
Has "Transformational Grammar" really sunk into obscurity? That would be great. I always found what he was saying about language to be utterly ridiculous. There are just so many variations across languages that it's hard to believe we have innate knowledge of a "universal grammar."

So True
I'll never forget, my Professor at "lowly" Cal-State told us (his class),
"...Stanford does not teach what I'm teaching you....How do I know??? I went to Stanford".

lolo
we have never forgotten. But the voters in mass and the leftists/libs still consider him the hero. Calling him something along the line of lion of the senate or some other similar nonsense. The libs always have selective memory. In sc fritz hollings raised the confed flag over the capitol but he later morphed into another lib hero. In one campaign hollings ran against someone who had a slight physical impediment that hollings ridiculed and in fact threatened to make worse if he continued to challenge good old fritz

wildwest
BTW don't forget swimmer Kennedy only got back into Harvard much later after he got kicked out for getting caught cheating.

Amazing what money can buy.

Grad School Acceptance
In support of Sowell's position, I notice that many graduates of top business and law schools went to less prestigious universities as undergraduates. The graduate schools are just like the undergrad programs, they want people with high GMAT / LSAT scores and GPAs to support their rankings. Where those GPAs were achieved is of secondary importance. Based upon my experience, students who know they eventually want to go to graduate school are better off delivering magna cuum (I love it - the Townhall censor won't let me spell it correctly!) laude performance at a less prestigious school and leveraging that into acceptance to a top-tier graduate program. This seems to work better than being middle of the pack at a higher-ranked undergraduate university. Whether undergrad or grad school, I agree with posters above that your diploma is going for your first one or two jobs and after that you're on your own.

On the flip side, I have worked with many top business school grads who were shocked to have to get their hands dirty with grunt work. This is not meant to be a blanket generalization, but I think many of the top programs convince their students that they are the future leaders of their fields while leaving out the hard work that will come before achieving that station. My favorite was a Harvard MBA at my first employer who stomped around for 20 minutes because the printer toner needed to be changed. She couldn't believe that we worked at such a second rate organization that the printer wasn't constantly monitored for her convenience. After listening to her rant for a while I got up, changed the toner and sat down without a word. Took 30 seconds. Of course flashing forward to present we just hired a Harvard MBA who is a genius and will probably have my job in 12 months, so who's to say.

wildwest
The only purpose of those studies is to drain your tax dollars and justify their existence. God save us from another stupid study!


A note to all parents out there and grandparents as well. Do your home work! If you think the public school system is bad the college system is worse. It's the trickle down effect. Our educational system begins at the college level and their stupidity has infiltrated our public schools.

Ivy League
A friend completed his PhD at Washington University in St. Louis a year before I did. He was employed by Harvard. During a visit home the following year he commented to me that he would never send a child of his to Harvard. He said the big name people were all doing government contracts. He, a new doctorate, was advising doctoral students, doctoral students were advising masters candidates and masters candidates were teaching the beginning students. His belief was that if you wanted first class, doctoral instruction, at the undergraduate level, you were much better off at a small college. Bill D.

zzx375
We were approved for credentials to cover the 24 Hours of Le Mans because we fall under the Canadian Quota, while larger and better known American outfits were rejected because they applied too late to get a slot. Diversity can be your friend....

Anthony, Chapman has a very large number of alumni who are the children of Hollywood so their endowment for Film and Studio Arts is very generous.

When I was there they also had a very large Japanese and Arab contingent. The Arabs all drove Trans Ams and their dorm was the only one with air conditioning. My US Government professor was Chinese. And I had to study Noam Chimpsky's "Transformational Grammar" -- which thank heavens has sunk into obscurity since then.

lolo
in many regards colleges have entered the business of attracting students merely to keep themselves in business. If you got the cash you will find acceptance at some collwege somewhere. As long as your parents can find the cash you will always have a place in the student body. Where else would those on the left spread their agenda without a college setting and where else would they find young minds to indoctrinate. But where else would many of these so called intellectuals find employment without a university setting. Do any of these studies programs have any purpose outside of a university setting?

Prestige schools
I have 3 kids. I have sent 2 of them to "prestige" schools. My daughter has graduated, and one son is a junior now. My daughter went out of state to a top rated state school, and my son is at one of the top liberal arts colleges in the South. Both of these schools set me back about $35,000/yr.

My third child is a senior in High School right now. He is a National Merit Scholar, and we are receiving stuff from schools all over the country. His first choice is the same school his sister went to, so we will how things work out. They accept less then 20% of out of state applicants.

The difference between a small liberal arts college and small (by state university standards)
state universities is immense. We visited my son on parents weekend when he was a freshman. We met his English teacher, and his teacher knew him by name. My daughter probably didn't have a prof know her by name until she was a junior, but she had a small class taught by the Dean of the College, and another class with 18 students taught by one of the foremost economists in the country.


This column
is on the money. I can totally attest to it since I am in the college process with my daughter. I used the book he cited and it's companion and they were very useful tools. I think most parents have really no idea just how many colleges are in this country. I know I didn't until I started the process.

As to the so called prestige of Harvard and others they are in danger of losing that prestige if they keep churning out idiots.

prestige schools
swimmer kennedy and harvard. nuff said

tericee
terricee,

regarding your post, "A "prestige" school was my best fit...":

Dr. Sowell wasn't saying that schools like MIT are always a bad choice. He was just saying that a lot of students who do get into these schools are not guaranteed to get the best education.

A student to go to a 'community college' for their first 2 years much cheaper and probably learn just as much or more while knocking out a lot of courses required most everywhere. Then transfer to MIT for their advanced courses in time to get that degree.

That way they don't bruise their wallet nearly as bad & still get the diploma from the top tier school.

For people just starting out, I'd definitely consider that as an alternative. Or possibly going into the military for 2 - 4 years for a crass course in discipline 1st. Then when they go to their university, they'll have enough world experience to get the most from their studies and avoid being indoctrinated by a lot of bunk that passes for discourse in college courses these days.

Wry Humour
I find it amusing that a couple of anonymous posters have condescended to compliment Dr. Sowell on this column. How generous of them, and I am sure that a scholar of Dr. Sowell's attainments will be terribly grateful that these two like what he wrote.

Dr. Sowell's Advice in Plain English
Calibrate your BS Detector and strap it on before you start the process of picking a University.

tericee
I applied to MIT and didn't get in, so I went to the local university. I expected nothing special there, but I was completely surprised at how much my horizons were broadened, simply because of the people I met.

Any big university will have lots of people from lots of different places, as well as lots of people with a wide variety of perspectives on the world. It's just a matter of seeking them out and learning from them.

CVN65
One of the interesting offshoots was the surprised reaction of our students about how well they were doing compared to the others. The most common type of comment was to the effect that they hadn't realized how good they were, i.e., how well-prepared.

Anthony Thomas
Actually, we are all pretty upset after this last "win". We looked horrible. Joe Gibbs/Al Saunders apparently goes to sleep during the 2nd Half. We have no 3rd Receiver/Possession Guy. Our running game is paltry. Our offensive line is as talented as the Bush Administration.

Defense looks good. However, we can't cover anybody. Smoot, Rodgers, and Springs give up 10 yards of cushion on 3rd & 1. Our d-line can't get any pressure. Taylor and Landry can punish/hit, yet will get beat like a drum across the middle.

We are 4-2 though. These next 5 games are a big test.

A "prestige" school was my best fit...
Perhaps another reason for wanting so many youngsters to apply is so that the school can choose from among a more interesting group of potential students. If the only people who went to MIT were the people who were "groomed" to go there, the school would be a poorer place for it.

Many years ago, I did very well on the PSAT, which resulted in a deluge of applications in my mailbox. Included in that deluge was an application to MIT.

I went to a podunk school in a podunk Maryland county where most of the classes I wanted as a senior were available only at the local community college. It had never even occurred to me to apply to a school like MIT, nor had my guidance counsellor suggested it. Since they sent me an application, however, I submitted it. And, contrary to Dr Sowell's brutal reality of rejection, I got in.

I think attending MIT broadened my horizons far more than four years at University of Maryland or Virginia Tech would have.
- I couldn't afford to pay the tuition myself, and my middle class parents couldn't get enough loans to pay my way, so I pursued an ROTC scholarship. I'm now culminating a 20-year Air Force career while stationed in Germany.
- Everywhere I've been stationed -- including Germany -- there has been an active MIT alumnie club. Most of my friends who went to "normal" schools cannot boast the same.
- Of the friends I made at MIT, one is an astronaut; three sold their companies to Microsoft, Amazon, and Cisco; one designed the software that's used to make movies like "A Scanner Darkly;" and one has been featured in an HP commercial.

I don't know for sure that I wouldn't have discovered the rest of the world w/o MIT, but it certainly gave me a kick start in the right direction.

Good points
My own dad, who has a PhD Math from Columbia U, embodies many of the qualities described. His concept of the world outside of academics (as he was already in academics prior and continued there, he was able to survive in that cocooned environment) is way-off from reality.

skoulen writes at 7:47 AM...
.... and speaks of Strobe Talbott, Robert Dahl and David Cameron. Excuse me, but I have no clue as to either who these dropped names are or to what they do today. Please elaborate so that I can be duly impressed once again about Yale.
--------------------------------------------------
skoulen -- "Dont (sic) prejudged (sic) the junior faculty".

skoulen -- "I think I couldnt (sic) have had better teachers all around."

Please, if you would like to impress people, at least use proper grammar (or is that the way they taught you contractions at Yale?).

TBC :-(

retchemprof
That is absolutely the case. Look, grad schools are all about money, just like any business. if they are accepting students from big-name universities that then fail out, they could be stuck with spaces that they cannot fill and thus lose income. It is in their best interests to cull the best students with the best preparation. Grad schools know where their best students come from. That is why my college had almost 100% placement in med, dental and vet school for an extended period of time- the grad schools knew that our students got a good, solid foundation on which to build. Our curriculum was challenging enough to rapidly weed out those with less than total commitment. As usual, sound advice from Dr. Sowell.

Role of elite schools
Here's an easy question for all the leftists out there: What role should elite schools play in an egalitarian society?

Obvious answer: No role at all.

So how many leftists out there actually accept this answer? Mighty few. And how many would be willing to eliminate these schools in their quest for an egalitarian society? Almost none.

AudiR10
"But my degree is from Chapman University in California, a prestigious school with plenty of well connected students and famous names."


I hear that Chapman has a great film program with some pretty unbelievable equipment. I actually looked at that program but couldn't really afford it as an out of state student.

Ralph ellison
My eagles are falling hard man, but your skins are rising. Ya'll must be loving it in DC right now!

My God, a good column!
This is a pretty good column by Sowell, with some pretty sound advice for future college students. There are a variety of factors that contribute to one's success. Of course, graduating college is one of them, but it's not the only thing needed. I have known many students who were extremely book smart, could take a test well and graduated college, but lacked basic verbal, interpersonal, and social skills to make it in the real world.

I have a family member who interviews people at his particular job, and he told me that he was surprised at how socially inept some of the best students were in interviews. He said he met many students with great resumes from great schools who had nothing original or interesting to say accept "I had a 3.9 from Penn.
"

This piece is right on.
From our medium-sized 100% non-prestigious state university, we placed students in the top grad schools and med schools in the country. As department chairman I received correspondence from schools that our students were attending begging me to send more of them. Reports from the students told how they had passed all their prelims on the first try while those from hotshot places were in their second or third go-around.

The bonus was that our students had paid less than one-third of what the others had for their fine education.

For the 1st time
I have to agree with Sowell. Don't get caught up in the prestige trap. I got into my first choice, Howard U. I also got into Notre Dame and Columbia, but didn't like the campus environments. I didn't think I would have the bestoverall experience at these prestigious schools. It's all about what is good for you. HBCUs are great options.

professional follow-up
So long as minimal criteria are met, most self-regulating professions don't care what "level" of post secondary you attend. What they do want is the practical work experience afterwards to show that you can actually think and work like one in your chosen profession.

One scriber yesterday had a very good idea for dealing with politically correct professors: act like a perfect sycophant until AFTER the first paper is graded. Once the prof has shown that he/she thinks you can produce work of an A or B quality, if your grades suddenly drop to D or E you have a case you can bring before the ombudsman (for a political bias complaint). Just make sure to keep your original assignment for comparison!

Dont prejudged the junior faculty
Sowell implies that junior faculty at selective schools are inferior to the senior faculty at less selective schools. This may not be true. The selective school's name also attracts talented junior faculty, looking to improve their own career prospects with a stint at a selective school. Twenty years ago at Yale, my PoliSci professors were Strobe Talbott and Robert Dahl. Dahl was already the acclaimed author of "Polyarchy" but Talbott was junior faculty at that time. David Cameron was my freshman advisor. At that time he was young faculty, but now he is acclaimed in European political analysis. I think I couldnt have had better teachers all around.

Enrollment management
The institutions listed by Dr Sowell all employ enrollment management. They are looking for the right 'mix' of freshman class (race, geography, income) such that a student with great credentials who lives in a large metropolitan area may be rejected whereas another with similar credentials but from a remote spot in the US will be accepted.

Going to University
When I went to University a million years ago, it was well known that what matters is the name on your degree, not where you did your work. So students would spend the first three years at a small, intense, unknown school and save their money and loan cap for the big push at the end -- a transfer to a prestige school where it would be possible to take the finishing courses and graduate with the Degree of Choice. Nobody ever asks me where I went to university; they only want to know where I graduated.

I had a great three years at Tusculum College in Davy Crockett Station, Tennessee, a small liberael arts Presbyterian college founded by the same people who founded Princeton. My class ring in fact is from there. But my degree is from Chapman University in California, a prestigious school with plenty of well connected students and famous names.

Of course my university education was not designed to get me a job; but the name on the degree shows that I have chutzpah and class. After that foot in the door it was up to me to prove I had absorbed some of it.

Dumbest thing that smart people do
The place where a degree from an elite school matters, as far as getting a job is concerned, is academia itself. Academics, when they are hiring, pay a great deal of attention to where one went to school. It's the dumbest thing that smart people do.

I myself went to the "wrong" school and as a result couldn't get much in the way of jobs or even publications, so I look like I haven't achieved anything.

And when I complained to leftists about how unfair it was, they weren't a bit interested, which is why I bash leftists as often as possible.

Shawn
"This reminds me of a joke we have in the nursing field. What do you call an M.D. who graduated at the bottom of his class. 'Doctor.'"


...and someone has an appointment to see him this morning.

Biggest Business in the US
More money is collected, paid out and spent by Universities as a group than any business in the US I think. Tuition climbing faster than inflation? You have to have money to take over entire towns and build all those monuments with marble cornerstones.

The thing that I find
enlightening is that tuition rates are still climbing at ALL schools. The new numbers recently released show tuition growing much faster than the cost of living increases. The average is now over 13K per year. It has got to the point where only the rich can really afford college.

Prestige vs. Non-prestige
" Some students may feel flattered that Harvard, Yale or M.I.T. seems to be dying to have them apply. "

This is not a bad thing when they want you badly enough to offer a free ride!

Actually, Dr. Sowell's advice is hugely sound. UCLA is the number one school in terms of the numbers of applicants -- more than 50,000 for Fall 2007, of which about 11,000 were accepted.

In the meantime, there are some perfectly good schools out there where all you need to do is have the appropriate qualifications and show up on time. They've got more than enough room.

"Hey kid, what's your SAT score?"
"Huh? Who me? Uh, six hundred something I think ..."
"GREAT! Get in here! Sit down. What's your major? Nevermind, we'll decide that later. Here's your books, here's your laptop, here's the key to your dorm ..."
"But but but ... I was just in the neighborhood to ..."
"HUSH UP and learn something!"

The Prestige U. racket
I went to Stanford in the 1970's, and the fact is, all my science classes were taught by big-name profs including a Nobelist. That's great. But as others have said here, years down the line none of that really matters. It's what you can accomplish _now_. In my company, the top technical people went to places like Univ. of Minnesota, Michigan, Alabama, even Cal State.

Prestige
The prestige of the school is probably good for 5 or 10 years. After that, the question is, "What have you done lately?"

I've heard of Harvey Mudd. It's a good school. Unfortunately, it's part of the Claremont College Consortium, which is where the teacher vandalized her own car to make it look like she was a victim of a "hate crime." I believe this incident was mentioned briefly in another column.

My family and I have been to Claremont's "Open House" seminars, and I'm impressed by their liberalism. All I can say is, my kid will be going into a technical field, so Harvey Mudd should be more-or-less immune to most of that.

Prestige
This reminds me of a joke we have in the nursing field. What do you call an M.D. who graduated at the bottom of his class. "Doctor."

Results Eventually Matter
Ivy league or big name schools may get you in the door a little faster, but eventually one needs to produce results in order to stay employed. We live in a world where no one cares where you went to school or what degree you have. All anyone cares about is how good you are at what you do.

Ask yourself a question: When you come across someone that really knows what they are talking about, do you immediately ask them where they went to school? I don't. All I am concerned about is how this person can assist me.


Great advice Dr. Sowell but I......
....wonder how many will really want to heed it? There is often too much prestige in the parents expenditures and/or the students ability to point at "their college".

Actual education isn't the most important thing any more.

And that's becoming very apparent.

And that's sad.

TBC :->
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