Townhall.com, Where Your Opinion Counts
Talk Radio:   Bill Bennett   Mike Gallagher   Dennis Prager   Michael Medved   Hugh Hewitt   
BREAKING NEWS  LeftArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican   RightArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican  
Columns, funnies & more in your inbox!
  • Check the boxes and send us your email address to receveive your free newsletter
  • Your daily must-read of conservative columns, cartoons and news. Coulter, Sowell, Krauthammer and more.
  • Townhall.com’s weekly inside scoop on what’s happening behind the scenes in the world of politics. When news breaks, we report.
  • Signup to receive the latest daily Townhall cartoons
Thursday, September 20, 2007
Thomas Sowell :: Townhall.com Columnist
Mugged By Reality: Part III
by Thomas Sowell
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
[+] Text [-]
 
Poll
Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


If nothing else comes out of the Iraq war, it should banish the concept of "nation-building" from our language and our minds. "The track record of nation-building and Wilsonian grandiosity ought to give anyone pause," as was said in this column before the Iraq war began.

We can now add the track record of Iraq to the list of disasters.

The very existence of Iraq is a result of Woodrow Wilson's grandiose ideas about "the right of self-determination of peoples," which led to the dismemberment of the Ottoman Empire by the victorious allied powers after the First World War.

Some of the most bitter and intractable conflicts of our time have arisen in nations carved out of the Ottoman Empire, whether in the Balkans or the Middle East.

You cannot turn a territory and its population into a functioning nation with the stroke of a pen or the drawing of lines on a map.

Real nations evolve over time out of the mutual accommodations of peoples, not by imposing the bright ideas of theorists from the top down. No small part of African nations' problems comes from the fact that most became nations only in the sense that conquerors carved up African territories among themselves to suit their own convenience.

There was no nation of Nigeria until the British drew some lines on a map and gave it that name. There is no reason to think that such a nation would have evolved on its own, given the mutually antagonistic peoples living in that vast territory.

Iraq is an object lesson in another sense. You seldom hear about the area of the country controlled by Kurds because that has been the most peaceful and orderly part of Iraq, and the media are drawn to death and destruction. In his insightful new book, "Mugged by Reality," author John Agresto says: "I do not believe one American, soldier or civilian, has been killed or even hurt in Kurdish Iraq since the war began -- or maybe ever."

The Kurds are a people. They are not just some folks thrown together by others who drew lines on a map. They had their own leaders before there were any national elections in Iraq.

As Agresto points out, democracy is a means, not an end in itself. Natan Sharansky's book "The Case for Democracy" argues persuasively for the international, as well as internal, benefits of democracy, seeing it as the kind of government that reduces the dangers of war.

President Bush became an enthusiast for the idea and spent hours talking with Sharansky in the White House.

Perhaps he should have spent a little time talking with Amy Chua, whose book "World on Fire" points out that democracy -- in certain kinds of societies -- is a recipe for disaster, despite how valuable it has been in Western nations.

Democracy means voting. It does not mean freedom. When we lump the two ideas together, we confuse ourselves and others.

Britain was a free country long before it became democratic. In Germany, Hitler was elected democratically. In much of Africa, democracy in practice has meant, "One man, one vote -- one time," as elected leaders put an end to both elections and freedom.

It would be wonderful to have free and democratic nations throughout the world, and that would very likely reduce military conflicts, as Sharansky and others say. But we do not ensure freedom by holding elections.

According to John Agresto, in Iraq "the 'democratic' government now entrenched is as sectarian and incompetent as we ever could have feared." He is unwilling to say that the invasion of Iraq "as originally conceived" was a mistake but he fears that it has become "a tragedy."

This is not a plea for withdrawal. Whatever the situation when we went in, international terrorists have chosen to make this the place for a showdown battle. We can win or lose that battle but we cannot unilaterally end the war. It is the terrorists' war, regardless of where it is fought.

Share:
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
 
About The Author
Thomas Sowell is a senior fellow at the Hoover Institute and author of The Housing Boom and Bust.
 
TOWNHALL DAILY: Sign up today and receive Thomas Sowell and Townhall.com's daily lineup delivered each morning to your inbox.
 
©Creators Syndicate
Chuck
You asked: Chancellor "appointed" by who? Your "history" lesson isn't inclusive enough. What authority was bestowed upon a Chancellor and who bestowed it?

You could look it up. But, Hindenburg was the president & he appointed Hitler as Chancellor. It doesn't really matter what authority the Chancellor had, since he and his Nazis cohorts burned the Reichstag building and ended the German democracy once and for all.

The point being, Hitler was never elected to run the German government.

The Flying Nun Hits The Ground
THE FLYING NUN HITS THE GROUND:
SYBIL TAKES OVER

BY LISA RICHARDS
September 21, 2007

I never watch awards shows. They’re nothing more than fashion show spectacles for the beautiful people to be seen and fawned over as they pretend to be oh so humbled for receiving an award for acting. I would rather watch Keith Olbermann, and that’s saying something since his show is how I punish my dog if the dog does naughty-naughty—I make the dog listen to Keith for an hour versus O’Reilly whom my dog loves.

Of late, awards shows have turned into United Nations free-for-alls for the 60’s generation has-beens who missed out on protest marches because mommy made them act on TV. Now the pampered snots who never got to be Jane Fonda have decided the Emmys and Oscars are a fabulous place to play Jane on a tank. And Sally Field has become the next walking foot-in-mouth-disease to accept an award with an anti-war statement that sounded like one of Sybil’s personalities on crack.

According to Field, if all the mothers on earth were in control of the world there would never be war. So claimed the off-balance actress to an audience of wanna’ be foreign policy strategists who think RPG stands for Really Pricey Gucci. I think Sybil’s liberal side needs an RPG in the rear...

For rest of column visit my blog

copyright 2007 Lisa Richards
http://www.lisa-richards.com
E-mail: lisa-richards@lisa-richards.com























pragmatic general
Your math is very much like a poster I used to see at various jobs. By subtacting out the weekends, holidays, time spent sleeping etc it PROVED that I had only spent one day working in my entire life and I was wasting that reading the darn poster. Fantastic.

No other choice
Unfortunately for the George Bushes of the world it ( the world ) is not a talk show where coming up with a catchy phrase or two is all you have to do and it is not either a college classroom or a newpaper column. Darn! That means that a cogent explanation of why current policies won't or past policies didn't work aren't going to do much good either. Mr Sowell had this little three parter put together a couple days back and so could start planning his weekend. Iraq by that or any other name is still there. The lines were drawn on the map when we got here. The Ottaman Empire is gone along with Rome, Egypt and Nebuchazenner. Reality is extremely messy and politics and war will always be a matter of shoving round pegs into square holes Square pegs into round holes and multiple tribes and political groups into one bloody mess called a country. All we can do it keep trying when we are in charge and keep bitching when we are not. Guess which one is easier.

Winners and losers.
Chancellor "appointed" by who? Your "history" lesson isn't inclusive enough. What authority was bestowed upon a Chancellor and who bestowed it?
Every game has rules, even if they get broken.
America's "game" goes back before 1492. Just that the players at that time were not in the same league as the ones with blankets to give that were used by smallpox victims.
The "chrisma" had just begun. The "pen" dealt the true killer as it's message was that the inhabitants were heathen, just like the Constitutions assignment of less than human to people marketed for their abilities to work hard under the whip & chain of "owners."
Problem with war is that it has to be fought with a plan to win it at any cost, including the sacrifice of lofty ideals as to who we are compared to what we are fighting.
It's pretty basic really. We kill potential suicide trained celebraties before they kill us. So far, the problem is solved. Can it remain that way if we quit Iraq? Who wants to be the author of the next "terror" attack here? Or do we simply put it into a catagory like abortion, and pass laws to accommodate those who selectively kill us?
Maybe we need a Chancellor?

Wayfinder and MStone
You guys are RIGHT!

renny, you are correct.
Hitler was never elected. He was appointed as Chancellor of Germany. He then brought down the German democratic republic. Within weeks of the appointment, Hitler was an absolute dictator.

The Nazi party did win elections, 107 seats, never a majority though. Before he was appointed as Chancellor, Hitler ran in the presidential election. He only got 30% to Hindenburg’s 49%. In the runoff Hitler got 36% to Hindenburg’s 53%.

renny, you are correct.
Hitler was never elected. He was appointed as Chancellor of Germany. He then brought down the German democratic republic. Within weeks of the appointment, Hitler was an absolute dictator.

The Nazi party did win elections, 107 seats, never a majority though. Before he was appointed as Chancellor, Hitler ran in the presidential election. He only got 30% to Hindenburg’s 49%. In the runoff Hitler got 36% to Hindenburg’s 53%.

I gave the 1860 census
for Russia.

Godda*n literal mindedness!@!!!

Lincoln's Proclamation in 1863 prompted Alex. II of Russia to free his serfs.

I GAVE YOU THE 1860 CENSUS FOR RUSSIA FOR AN IDEA OF THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE FREED. RUSSIA DIDN'T HAVE AN 1863 CENSUS, NEITHER DID WE.

Not this time, Dr. Sowell
I'm a tremendous fan of Dr. Sowell's writing. I usually find myself in complete agreement with him, but not this time.

It's become awfully fashionable to denigrate the latter stages of the operation in Iraq as "nation building," but that's not really an accurate way of looking at it.

We went to war with Islamist terrorism after 9/11. Actually, the Islamists were already at war with us; we just decided to fight them on military instead of law-enforcement terms.

The war with the Islamists is an unconventional war. They're basically carrying out an insurgency campaign, attempting to destabilize the U.S. and other countries and inimidate their populations.

Insurgents are like mosquitoes: you can't kill them all, so to get rid of them you drain the swamp. You can't hunt down and kill all the terrorists, so you relieve the social, political and economic conditions that prompt them to take up arms.

The level of poverty, oppression and hopelessness prevalent in the Muslim portions of the Middle East are beyond anything most of us can imagine. Democracy--a system where governments are popularly elected, where individual rights are protected, and where secular and not religious law governs--is a means to the end of improving life for Muslims in the Middle East.

If it can be made to work in Iraq, it may take hold elsewhere in the Middle East--especially in Syria and Iran. We've already seen the people of Lebanon start to stand up and shake off Syrian oppression in the wake of Saddam's removal.

This isn't nation-building, since Iraq was already a nation. This is regime change--and a daring application of classic counterinsurgency strategy to the war against Islamist terrorism.

It's also a case of swinging for the fences. Whether or not it's successful is something we'll have to wait to find out.

Recommended reading
'Churchill's Folly' by Christopher Catherwood. 'Winston Churchill's creation of the artificial monarchy of Iraq, forcing together Sunni Muslim Kurds, Sunni Muslim Arabs, and Shiite Muslims under a single ruler and unwittingly producing a Middle Eastern Powder keg.'

Interesting reading indeed.

Hitler was not exactly
an ex. of democracy.

His National Socialist Party won 33% of the vote and a slim parliamentary majority. Hitler was asked to form a gov't.

Lo and behold, the Reichstag (capitol building) burned down with all the Weimar Rep.'s records. Hitler declared a national emergency and from then on ruled as a dictator.

He simply killed and emprisoned his enemies. He said, "You have your constitution but I have my gun." Not exactly democratic.

Cuba has elections and Castro has won the majority every year since 1960. He's the only one who runs, so you can't exactly blame dem. on him either.

Iraq will not have pure or monarchial dem. but a parliamentary dem. where different factions and parties get to be part of the gov't according to proportional voting. The Hamas maj. vote in Palestinian territory is not likely to happen. Al Qaidi and the Sunnis in Iraq are not majority segments of the pop.

s

Just because it's Sowell
I excercise my American status in allowing my "representation" to fight this war; with no comments, save THANK YOU- and by contributing to society in as positive a way as possible.
I do not read or listen to anything wrt to the "daily news on the war".
(I read Sowell-regardless of subject; so I'm commenting a bit off-subject).
WW2 was fought with no TVs, blogs, etc.
This war was a complete failure...all the way up to the point where it was not a failure!
War is over...when it's over!
Therefore, the daily news on Iraq is useless to me.
Can you imagine the daily news on WW2???
Indeed...War is Hell!

Wayfinder
I agree with your post, though I think we still are only at war with islamofascism in Iraq and Afghanistan. The intent is to send a broader message to around the ME in hopes of avoiding a gigantic all out war. Now whether a gigantic all out war is inevitable, that is quite possible, especially when you look at what is going on in Africa.

Right now I think we only have put a cop in the neighborhood in hopes people will slow down.

Bill

Can you link us a source for your stats?

jerabaub

There is more to national security than just 9/11. There is more than one national security issue. What we did say is that we will no longer ignore your threats and give you even the possibility of another 9/11. To continue to let Saddam get away with breaking all of his commitments says to the terrorists that were just plain chicken.

I do agree however with your point about the aftermath. More thought needs to be taken on that.

Wayfinder
Thanks for the comments. There is no analogy between the free, ancient nations of Japan and Germany and a carved-out creation like Iraq. How can you compare the once useful Hussein, with his petty Republican Guard, to the greatest standing since Rome raining down on Britain and Europe? It is an insult to Europeans to compare them (us) to the Middle East, which has no tradition of democracy or of the separation between civil society and the state.

Opposition to the Iraqi adventure does not mean agreeing with Ron Paul. I for one would cease all Muslim immigration to the West and even outlaw Islamist parties just like the Nazi party is outlawed.

It is now obvious that the best thing Iraq can hope for is a strong leader that unifies the nation and acts as a bulwark to Iran, i.e. Hussein. Please do not conflate these issues. No one is suggestion that Islam (you may leave the fascism, it's implied) is not a genuine threat. I simply do not believe Iraq was the proper strategy for combating it.

Check out Pinkerton's latest essay in The Amercian Consevative. It's a start.

Cheers!

The Pragmatic General
Dr. Sowell,
I have never understood why the Iraqi demographics have not been explained or revealed to our 12-year old brainiacs. The so-called broadcast news media has done us a great disservice again.
An obscure mention was made on national TV recently that a very high percentage of the Iraqi citizenry is merely 14-years old. Something northward of 50%.
Consider that Saddam held sway for 3-decades and during his reign a dictator worse than uncle Joe, or even cousin Adolph, controlled the country.
Now, our clueless legislature: congress and senate, as well as the thoughtless administration, seat around and prattle about "nation building" in a backward and broken land where the 25 million populace is completely unequipped to save themselves from each other: 25 -12.5=12.5 million 14-years old or older. The Kurds make up 3-4 million, leaving 9 million Sunni and Shia of which only 5%, or 450,000, are considered adults: 21 or over. Let's assume that 50% are female (non-combatants), leaving 225,000 males. Get the picture here? An impossible hurdle for any straight thinking professional.

Democracy
Democracy by definition means majority rule, whomever is voted in has the power.Hitler was voted in, Hamas was voted in. When our country relearns the principle of individualism,[The liberty to do as we please with no government interference]The government only has the right to protect individual freedom, nothing else.Doesn't anybody ask themselves why the U.S. is the most powerful nation in the world, both economicly and militarily.The answer is because for the better part of 100 years we had the least government interference both politically and most importantly,economically.The less government the better for EVERYBODY.

Jerabaub and Sebastian
A true conservative would also understand that we cannot sit idly by while gangsters preaching a violent jihad while acting as proxies for Middle Eastern dictators who can't risk losing their own petty seats of power. If World War II taught anyone anything its that we have to be involved in the world or we will have the likes of strongmen like Hitler and Stalin running things and posing a threat.

Sowell is right that nation-building isn't what we're good at, but we are very good at nation re-building. Germany, Western Europe and Japan are good examples. True, they were not carved up like the Ottoman Empire was at Versaillies, but some measure of guidance from our part played a role. I'm more in favor of a free-market approach as was done in Japan rather than the Marshall Plan in Europe, but in the end our involvement is necessary if, for nothing else, to see that our own national interests are in play. If we want peace in our time, we must be its author.

Going into Iraq was and still is the right thing to do. Helping to rebuild that nation is also the right thing to do, both morally and in our own mutual interest. Going back on offense against the source of much of our problems would also be the right thing to do.

To go back on offense, which would likely involve striking Iran, we must approach every other nation in the Middle East that has ties to the Jihadists, and that includes Saudi Arabia and Yemen. Part of the problem I see in this war is that the President's posture toward those nations puts the entire war against Islamofascism in a dubious light. Are we really at war with Islamofascism, or are we only at war with Islamofascism in Iraq and Afghanistan?

Mugged by reality
Surprisingly, Sowell misses the point in his column, not something he often does. He clearly equates democracy with universal voting. Democracy is a political solution and system that allows people to govern themselves by means of institutions that protect each person's right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. These institutions do not spring to life after the first vote for a new government. They must be established, nurtured and protected from those who would overthrow them to aggrandize themselves. This process takes more than 4-5 years and a handful of "votes". To say we have failed to help the Iraqis establish a democracy in Iraq after 5 years fails to account for the time necessary to develop and nurture those insitutions required to have a functioning democracy. While a child may exist at the moment of inception in the mother's womb, it still take 9 months for it to mature into an independent, functioning person. I believe a second functioning democracy in the Middle East is the only hope for that politically stunted part of the world.

renny
your history has Alexander II in 1860 emulating Lincoln's emanciaption proclamation that didn't occur until 1863.

In general your account does not really get at the notion of nation building being discussed here. The question of nation building is whether one can take a region containing people who define themselves primarily by some kind of tribal definition and get them to merge into a single people who define themselves according to a country. This clearly can happen over time as all of the European nations began as separate groups that then developed a national identity. And in the case of the US and Canada this has worked by building the country on someone else's lightly populated land so there is not so much home field advantage for any group. But I don't know to what degree it has been done in the kind of time frame of a modern occupation.

mostly good column
Sowell is certainly right that nation building is more than drawing a line on a map. The process that gets people from tribal to citizens of a state is a slow one, and not one that can simply be ordered. And he is right that Iraq is a fiasco because we had no idea how to deal with what came after.

But there is also an oversimplification that can be seen in his example of Nigeria. It is certainly true that Nigeria was a tribal region artificially put together as a state. But what reason is there to think that that region would be better off without this artificial state. It is not that tribal groups live utopian peaceful existences until bad westerners come and group them into artificial states.

The real question is how the always disruptive process of evolving from tribes to states occurs with least disruption. That there is disruption from artificial states is true. It is less clear that there would not be more disruption from letting the process evolve.

Another question is what role we should be playing in dedicing what route other regions take. And there, as long as we have no idea what we are doing, a sensible answer would be as little as possible.

But the Bush administration is not responsible for the artificial lines drawn in Iraq. Its role was only to remove the stabilizing government that was there because it was a wretched one.

Mr. Small:
Careful, your anti-semitism is showing.

Lolo
Since when did Saddam threaten our national security?

He had nothing to do with 9/11. Even Bush admits that.

By the way, my original post already went over this territory, to wit: While we may have given no thought to the consequences of invading Iraq, we must not now compound that blunder by giving no thought to the consequenes attendant to our withdrawal of Iraq.

Ray
I'm no liberal, but I agree with your post. I would point out, further, that this is why we will need something that works in that country for 10, 20 or even 30 years. We cannot will people into a process we understand, but in which they have no experience. This is very likely a generational reality, and it may take several generations of peace to get to where we today believe they should go.

We can stay to provide security, but staying to provide a government of our choice is quite a different reality.

We are committed to turning security over to the Iraqi's over time, and as that transpires, our influence will decline. They in turn will develop what they can currently digest and live with.

I believe they were, from the outset, more realistic than we were. They chose a federation, in which sects would essentially run their own affairs as they saw fit. The Shia's turned to the only leadership they'd ever had, which were their clerics and tribal leaders. They in turn chose a Shia theocracy - because that is how they currently see the world and how they live. Their people would never accede to live again under Sunni leadership, and they had no knowledge or understanding of how to both share power and provide equal protections under the law. Nor did they have the good will to try at this point.

The Kurdish leadership made the very clear point from the outset that they would not give up any control to a central government until it had operated for 10 or more years.

This is not likely to change.

Ray
I see where you are coming from.

A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.

Lolo1 (and any others)...
I agree with all you say but that doesn’t move us forward. My biggest concern is that the Iraqi people do not even understand the requirement for and have not actually committed to the grueling process of self-rule, much less the mutual respect prerequisite to its success. They are, right now, understandably focused only on consenting to a government they hope will be more benevolent to them than the previous but are not yet appreciative of nor preparing for the rigors of self-rule required of them if it is not.

Self-rule is a huge responsibility; regarding which I also sometimes question our own American people. Otherwise the whole issue of illegal immigration would be centered around the inadvisability of taking in people to participate in a self-ruling society without regard to whether or not those people know anything at all about how that self-rule works and their roles and responsibilities in it. Instead, we quibble over the unquestioned value of immigrants and about whose hearts are, therefore, bigger and whose motives are, therefore, purer. It is not a matter of their historically demonstrated and therefore easily stipulated value to us but of there capability to intelligently participate in maintaining the self-ruling system from which they wish to share the benefits and for which they then bear the responsibility.

Perhaps some Liberals would care to comment?

Separation
We want to believe that the Shia's and Sunni's will somehow come to some form of a compromise that will encourage equal protection for each under a common government. This model, after all, is needed in many of the middle eastern countries. We sometimes ignore that we also have a similar issue between the Taliban and the Moslems in the North in Afghanistan. Yet slements of these sects do not fight for democracy - they fight to impose their sectarian vision on others. Just as the Maya's, Inca's, Aztec's and Protestants during the Inquistion could not reason with their captors whose brand of Catholicism was intolerant, neither can we seem to convince the Shia and Sunni clerics to compromise with each other. This is not about government. This is about a religion caught up in an ancient fued.

We hope to teach them. But it's not about listening - it's about understanding. And it's not about understanding - it's about wanting. Do they want a democracy - or a Shia theocracy. If the clerics insist on a theocracy - overlaying a democracy - then he who claims to laugh about separation - will be laughing for many years because the Sunni's will never live under a Shia theocracy - guaranteeing only separation.

The Shia's, having no natural secular leadership, could only go to their clerics and tribabl leaders - which they did. Currently, they've chosen a Shia Theocracy. If we cannot persuade the Shia Clerics to change - then there will be no change.

And, I'm no more optimistic about persuading the Shia clerics to change their approach - that I would have been about the Inquisition.

dyerje
Well said as always.

jerabaub
I think you are the one that is naive. We did not go into Iraq with the express purpose of nation building. We went in for national security. However once you take out your enemy you must then nation build or let that vacuum exist. So what kind of hateful and resentment nation would it become if we just left them twisting in the wind? What kind of anger would build if we went in there and took out the government and left chaos? Don't you think doing that would just create another enemy? How friendly would they be to us once they did reform after deprivation, starvation and slaughter? Get Real.

Blind men 2
Trying to overlay America's Constitutional republic, complete with First Amendment protection of pornography, on a multifarious Iraq that is still recovering from decades of brutal tyranny -- that IS a bad idea. But I don't think that's what we've been attempting.

Calling it "nation-building" is a way of inviting opposition from all quarters. As some have noted, there is already a nation there. The real point is to leave it with a majority-consensual leadership that both respects a basic package of minority rights, and can defend the nation against either conventional or unconventional incursion. Respecting tribal traditions, which govern many things from lending money to buying land to arranging marriages, is essential – and may not produce a secular, legalistic polity OR economy, but still one that is stable, and leaves people able to live without fear of extortion by thugs and gangs, or of genocide, political incarceration, or rape rooms and acid-dripping torture chambers.

The greatest mistake we could possibly make, in all this, is the mistake we made in Vietnam: leaving an armed and determined enemy on the doorstep of our client, poised to invade and take over as soon as our backs are turned. With or without a strong and trusted central government, Iraq will not be able to withstand steady infiltration by terrorists sponsored by, or originating from, Iran. Until we address that problem, Iraq is a bloody coup waiting to happen.

Blind men describing an elephant 1
I appreciate all the comments from people who truly do have a clue, including Dr. Sowell. Iraq was, indeed, divided arbitrarily in the settlement after WWI; it does contain largely and/or primarily tribal elements, both Sunni and Shi'a; the Kurds are a distinct people, and see themselves that way; and Iraq was a nation before, during, and after Saddam.

It's also true, and not mentioned by anyone here, that Iraq's Chaldean Christians, who are Assyrian in origin and NOT Arab, Persian, or Kurdish, have traditionally had more influence than their numbers in the population might indicate. It is true that in the river delta area of the south, from Baghdad to Basrah, there has been a longstanding tradition of urban-centered, sovereign political (NOT tribal) rule, from the days of the ancient Babylonian empire through the period when Susa, near modern Baghdad, was the seat of the ancient Persian empire. Just as it's true that the Kurds are less tribal than ethnically unified, that Turkey, Iran, and Syria are as alarmed at Kurdish nationalism as Baghdad has ever been, and that almost everyone in Iraq has some pretext for considering other elements of the population to be interlopers with a wrong idea of God or the Prophet – if we go back far enough in history.

But any one of these pieces, considered in isolation, is misleading. Using them one by one to argue that we either ARE or ARE NOT "really" engaged in nation-building is equally misleading.

It's the nation-building we haven't defined up front. Too often, everyone is shadow-boxing against a personal definition that isn't what other people mean by "nation-building."

Renny..your naivete is touching
You need to read Eban's post.

Iraq was never a nation in the sense Japan and Germany were.

You take delight in quoting JFK, but his own secretary of defense(McNamara)had been informed by JFK that we would pull out of Vietnam by 1965. Our commitment to the freedom of the South Vietnamese had limitations.

JFK's assassination changed all that.

Our nation, our soldiers, our treasury, are not to be sacrificed in order to "bestow liberties upon all mankind". That is silly...even on its face.

It is more in keeping with the confused, inchoate thoughts of a junior high school student.

Yes, we should serve as an example, we should encourage liberty and freedom, but that is a far cry from sending our troops to create it..to a nation whose own inhabitants would rather engage in sectarian warfare and ancient blood-feuds, revenge killings.

True Conservative
Your are correct regarding a much larger problem down the road. Most Intelligent Americans can and recognize this FACT, however, the Demonrats Socialist Commies have taken over Congress and will do everything capable of weakening and further destroying the ideals that make America the Greatest Country ever to exist on this Planet. And the MSM support the Demonrats Propaganda, so alot of the populace don't see the truth for what it is. Peace is achieved by Strength of Arms and the fact that your Potential Enemies know you will use that force as necessary to defend your Interests. We must derail the MSM, make list and go after all adveritisers and boyott all products and services. This is the only viable way to reduce or eliminate them; hit them where it hurts in the pocket and they will come around very soon to toe the line. 49% of this Country is conservative based upon last two federal elections ( I believe it is higher) and if we unite to address the blatant bias in the MSM, things will change very quickly or least actions will force for them to appear to change...so continued policing will be required. The Silent Majority must AWAKEN!!!

Why Sowell is Wrong on This One
The postings from the liberals agreeing with him is proof enough he got this one wrong!

Comments posted.
Warren Small: I am sure you have never been to Israel and can see first hand the Palestinians living in Peace with Israelites. They have Full Freedom of Religion and full freedoms that the Israelites themselves have and will not relocate back to Lebanon or anywhere else. They are prosperous and Happy. Same in all lands that have been controlled by Israeli in the past, however, when Israel turned over control back to Lebanon and the Palestinians, chaos resulted. You need to do some more research before you demonstrate you lack of knowledge; It makes you look like an idiot parroting false information.

TrentDJ - excellent Posting. Very informative and on target.

Vic - I agree completely, however, I don't see America hanging on another 50 years, not with Demonrats (Socialist Commies) controlling Academica, Our Courts, the MSM, and now Congress. Let's just hope and pray they lose Congress in 2008 and don't win the POTUS. If they get both Congress & POTUS, America as we know it won't last thru Hillary's term, America as we know it will be over. Now how long before Chaos and Local and Regional Secession Issues arise, who Knows - our Military will not fight Americans inside Amercia to prevent Secession, which is what prompted the Civil War. Maybe the Military will save Us. Remember "Seven Days in May", a Movie where the Military had plans to take over control of Government to prevent the unilateral disarming of America, leaving it hopeless undefended from Attack. Great Movie, however this time the Military will be the Good Guys, and I will support them.

Sadly, Sowell is Missing the Big Picture
I'm going to have to disagree with Sowell on this one ... he's forgetting the big picture of Islamic terrorism, and even if a democracy doesn't work well in Iraq, it's a start that must be made to de-radicalize the Arabs!

The alternative was to let forces gather and deal with a much larger problem down the road! CAN ANYBODY SEE THAT? Didn't Churchill see much the same situation with the Nazis leading up to WWII ... a little event that cost about 100 million lives and destroyed a substantial piece of Europe and chunks of the rest of the world!

These dots are not hard to connect!

len
Well said and I agree. We must first get their attention in order to move forward. Security, law and order, should have been first.

I equate it with trying to learn in a classroom and getting frustrated because their are always a handful of students who have to ruin it for the teacher as well as the other students. Maybe not the best analogy ever out forward but you get the meaning.

len
There are 4 issues involved here. 1. Should we have invaded 2. The strategy of how to handle Iraq once easy victory established 3.What to do now and the hidden issue, the the magnifying glass coverage of everything we do that becomes headlines and ends inhibiting intelligent actions for fear of being criticized as imperialists and some kind of monsters.

One thing is clear now that the strategy of depending on democracy instead of establishing law and order and security was a huge error. That is being corrected now. It remains to be seen what the outcome will be. I think for a successful outcome we would have to stay there for 5 years or more. We cannot leave which as Sowell points out would not be in our national interests. But I think the crucial thing in inhibiting intelligent policy was the pornographic coverage which highlighted difficulties and fed into the anti-war group. Policy was determined by looking over one's shoulder at what the press coverage would be.That is a factor England did not have to deal in their successful colonial adventures. If not for England's colonialism, there would be no India today as we know it and the Indians are appreciative of that.

Ray
We won't ever know if they can learn it or if we can teach it if we don't give them the opportunity to learn it first.

We are expecting real time 21st century results from an area of the world that is centuries behind. They have one foot stuck in the past and one in the future and the two won't reconcile. One will have to win out.

The if it bleeds it leads media are showing the minority descent in the form of car bombs etc. What they are not making obvious is that a minority of the population is taking control by force. Anyone with any type of intellect should know that is oppression.

Most Iraqi's to get along, but it is within parameters. They need to learn to take it to the next level. They can disagree and still co-exist and negotiate.

If Muslims don't first learn to respect one another they will never learn to respect any other.

The Iraq Attack
The invasion of Iraq was never about building a nation. If that came out when the smoke cleared fine, but it was not the prime motivation.

Oil and the money derived from it are and always have been the prime motivation. This is why we will be there until the oil runs out. War games keep people working and make some very rich monetarily.

As a bonus, we can get many more soldiers killed in defense of big business, our insatiable appetite for cheap gas and of course Israel.

Lolo1...
You are, of course, right that respect for others is a prerequisite to self-rule of a disparate population. In a previous post I mentioned the difference between ‘self-rule’ and ‘government by consent of the governed’. The latter is the goal and is why, I believe, so many Iraqi’s risked so much to cast their votes. The former is the only means by which to sustain that goal over time should the ‘consented to’ government disappoint its supporters. I am not sure, that the Iraqi voters understood the necessity and were prepared for the hard work, responsibility, compromise’s and, as you point out, respect for others required to maintain their consent through self-rule. I suspect many would have been quite happy if the resulting consensual government had been permanent Shia Law practiced by their particular regional/ethnic Islamic leaders.

Also, while respect for others is something the Iraqi’s must clearly learn, I am not sure it is something we can teach them. Perhaps the best we can do is give them time to learn it through the consequences that will otherwise obtain but our own internal political dissent stands firmly in the way. Your thoughts?

Nation Building
After more than four years of war, two questions persist: Is there an Iraq? Are there Iraqis?


Mick O.
We have not been a melting pot since the communists took over the Democratic Party in the 30s and the radical peacenicks subverted it in the 60s. The leftists don’t even teach the "melting pot" anymore. They teach the "salad bowl". We now celebrate our differences and the lyingcrats practice the politics of division and class envy. We put all of that up on our new PC pedestal and worship it as DIVERSITY. This country is breaking down along the lines of the urbanites against the ruralites at an accelerating pace.

We will be lucky if we make it another 50 years before we ourselves fracture into a "balkanized" set of subdivisions.

Dr. Sowell
You are splitting the baby in half. The reason for invasion was not nation building. However, if you don't create a nation, you create a vacuum and could possibly end up with something worse. Without nation building it will all be for naught.

The problem with Muslims and their tribes they do not respect each other let alone anyone else. If we are going to win against terrorism we must first teach them to respect each other and that not everyone with a differing view is a threat to their view. They must first learn to live together before they can learn to live in the rest of the world.

Nationa building does work
It has worked in post-WW II Germany and Japan and post-Korean War South Korea. In a back*sswards way it is working in Vietnam that wants most-favored nationa trade with us.

Israel is the ultimate in nation building. It built itself out of desert and defeat.

I also want to post as of 10:06 am, Comcast homepage has not featured a news story on violence in Iraq. I believe a first in four years.

I pose to the perpetually anti-war:

America has freed 1.5 billion since Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation and freed
3.94 million slaves.

In emulation, Alexander II Russia then freed his serfs (2/3/-3/4 of Russia's 67 million population in 1860).

In 1898, America freed all the slaves of the Spanish Emp. by winning the Spn.-Am. War. That was 10-12 million in South America alone.

We freed Europe in WW I and II. Then, after WW II, we created the Marshall Plan to rebuild Europe and immediately keep the ravaged population from starving to death. Europe's 1950 population was 738 million mid-century.

In Korea, we saved 2.36 million in the south from being conquered by a dynasty whose major ec. policy is starving the population.

And in Iraq, 150,000 US soldiers freed 24,000,000 Iraqis in a country twice the size of CA.

If we don't do it, no one else will. And some day, we will not be either ec. or militarilyb powerful enough. Look at Eng. 50 years ago the British Empire ruled the world.

We should not be ashamed or demoralized that Iraq is not perfect. A semi-dem. Iraq will buffer Iran's nuclear ambitions, add a ME Arab dem. to Lebanon--maybe help Israel, protect the moderate Arabs, allow business and trade to flourish again (predicted 6% ec. growth this year), and serve as an ex. to the world.

JFK said we would go anywhere and fight any foe for freedom. He must roll over in his grave when he hears liberals speak today.

John Galt, The only reason against
the 3 states is that Turkey said that they would immediately invade a Kurdish state and would not allow it to exist as such. They are afraid that their own Kurdish population would want to secede from Turkey and join the Kurdish state and take the land they are on with them.

Well said TrentDJ
Although I think Sowell is great, I do think that it is a stretch to all what we are doing in Iraq "nation building". It already was a nation when we got there. None other than Bill Clinton himself advocated for the very policy that Bush has undertaken. Was Bill just being disingenuous or did he really believe that Saddam had to be removed?

The children on the left want a perfectly fought war in a tenth the time that other wars have been fought with virtually no casualties and no "mistakes". This is idiotic (in the technical dictionary sense of the word). As was once pointed out by a famous military leader, winning a war means making less mistakes than the other side.

The problem with the left is that either they have BDS and see a loss for Bush as a win for them, or they actually think that wars can be fought with minor loss of life. Either way they do not bear listening to on this issue.

Sowell, on the other hand, does have some food for thought and because he is much smarter than me, I will have to consider his words carefully.

Respecfully disagree
Any time I hear someone put forth the argument that Iraq should be divided into 3 states for each of the main tribes there, I have to laugh.

The statement that 3 fundamentally different peoples can never live together in peace is ludicrous. Look at the US.

True we are considered a melting pot and the nation's founders started out that way, but most of the people living here now know very little about that thanks to the public school system.

My point is this. It is economic prosperity that has enabled people in this country to live to together peacefully, though they differ in cultures, religions and backgrounds.

In my opinion, that is the hope for the middle east which is woefully behind the rest of the world, held back by the likes of dictators and mullahs who keep their peoples in a third world existence.

Bring forth a little capitalism and you will see a new Iraq, peaceful and prosperous. Our founding fathers understood that "yearning to be free" is a human condition not limited to the United States. And that is Bush's vision, right or wrong.

At the end of the "invasion"...
... I read a great article, I think on http://www.tcsdaily.com, about how "Iraq" was an artificially-bounded country, and we should divide the land into three separate states. Under the plan I read, there would be provision for sharing of oil money to remove the incentive of one state attacking the other over oil. It's been several years since I read that article, I've still not heard any compelling evidence against it.

Germany and Japan
You cannot compare Japan to Iraq. In Japan, we kept the Emperor as a unifying force, just as we did not sit down and fire all the civil servants. Japan was culturally unified, and had been such for hundreds of years. Iraq has never been culturally unified - in 3000 years. We did not build a nation in Japan - it already existed. There are and were no sectarian divisions, and no tribes. They do not subscribe to a religion that advocates war to those who do not subscribe to the religion.

Germany was also already a nation - and again, we did not build it. It had a common religion that did not advocate war on those who do not subscribe to the religion, and was not made up of tribes nor religious sects who advocated war against each other.

In the end, Iraq has never been a culturally unitifed entity. It has never existed as a nation save as lines drawn on a map by outside powers whose political solution was to install a dictator/king of a minority group in power to force the people to live within those lines. The people had no options to vote on such an arrangement - and now that they finally do, they have voted to live only under the rule of those within their sects and tribes. In sum, they instantly rejected what had been forced on them after WWI.

Democracy-suffrage and veils
Talking about stroke of the pen: Israel in the heart of the then Muslim world. Haven't had a moments 'peace' since in the Middle East.
Didn't we nation build after WW II? in different parts of the globe by totally different peoples?
Maybe if we understood that the arabs have sheiks and mullahs, the evolution of their brand of 'democracy' would have been more tribal...more relevant to their notion of freedom. Instead I think we replayed American suffrage into a world where power is not shared equally and that seems to suit their history. I think it was a waste of time to pull off veils, for example. Look at the crap we are going through with turbins!
Nation building...I don't have problem with at the end of a war. What I do have a problem with is overdoing the American view of this old society as somehow needing replaced with a westernized..progressive view of suffrage and politics.
I spent 3 years in Saudi [81-84, civ./contract] and much about the sheik/tribal system was admirable. Not for me, but then, it was not about ME.
DOUG

Sowell is a true conservative
Thomas Sowell runs the risk of enraging neoconservatives, and sycophantic administration-loyalist kool-aid drinkers who delude themselves into believing they are true "conservatives", when he questions the radically utopian Wilsonian nation-building scheme enunciated by this administration regarding Iraq.

I agree with Sowell we can't precipitously pull out of Iraq, although it distresses me greatly that more U.S. soldiers will be sacrificed in a salvage operation designed to limit a full-scale catastrophe(the aftermath of the invasion), turning it into a more manageable foreign policy debacle.

We were careless, oblivious to the consequences, when we invaded Iraq, but we must not exhibit that same lack of care, and ignorance of the consequences, as we draw down to leave Iraq.

Thomas Sowell is a credit to the conservative cause. I only wish I could say the same for Bill Kristol, Fred Barnes, Charles Krauthammer(altho Charles occasionally glimpses an inchoate, fleeting apparition of reality even as the dank, impenetrable neocon fog envelopes his head).

Warren Small
The land of America was a pretty and peaceful place in 1492. It was populated by "native Americans" who came here from Asia via frozen ocean to Alaska, down the west coast, and gradually all over the country.

Virtually every nation in the world was "originally" populated by humans who came from somewhere else. Scientists agree that the first true humans originated in Africa, everywhere else is just a bunch of immigrants.

The history of humanity is one of conflict, often over a piece of land. I'm rooting for the Jews because I admire their culture, while I loathe and despise the Islamic culture, the most bass-ackwards in the world. I wipe my a$$ with the Koran.

Huh?
Just where did we redraw boarders after we took out Saddam? I agree that the dividing up of the Ottoman Empire was/is a disaster. But, that is apples, and this is oranges.

Yes, because of the mistakes made in the 20th century, this is harder than Germany and Japan were.

Also, we have the impotent U.N. in the way. And we have an impatient public being bombarded with 24/7 propaganda.

We had over 3 years of an insurgency (a real one, too.) in Germany, and many missteps. Look at them over the past half century, wasn't that a successful "Nation Building".
The Japanese believed their Emperor was a god, so they were just as bass-ackwards as the Arabs. Look at them now.

In both of those examples, we were loosing soldiers after the war was over. The press was calling it a quagmire. We made mistakes, we adapted. We overcame the difficulties, and it was worth the struggle.

Spot on
''Democracy is a means, not an end in itself.

Democracy means voting. It does not mean freedom. When we lump the two ideas together, we confuse ourselves and others.''

Those two statements alone should be hung on a banner above every foreign policy meeting in the west.

Yet again, rem acu tetigisti Dr Sowell.

Dr. Sowell has really outdone himself
on this one. "Nation-building" has in fact been discredited over and over again and yet we always go back in and try. It would be nice if the liberals and their running dog lackeys in the news media had an institutional memory longer than 20 minutes.

Let us (shudder) postulate that her royal thighness Queen Shrillary the first wins the 08 election. In all likelihood, after we have declared victory and slinked out of the Middle East intirely, Shrillary will get us involved somewhere else on some PC mission of nation building. We’ll have another failed mission because she decided to run the mission from Washington and sent in too few forces for the job and gave them no support and impossible ROI. Once again U.S. troop bodies will be dragged through the streets and the world will get a look at what a wuss the U.S. really is. The next ben Laden wanta-be will see this an start another crusade to kill Americans in America. In response, Shrillary will send in ATF and FBI agents to burn women and children.

I already bought the pop corn
to this event. It will be 'most amusing.'

Much of the world remains TRIBAL, which we here in the West don't understand (including me.) But I do know that the family is first, tribe is second and all else third to everyone but us.

Sunnis have a pack of tribes as do Shiites' NONE of the tribe get along very well with each other yet we expect them to sit down and come up with a FAIR document? Ya, right!

Powerful & True
"Britain was a free country long before it became democratic."

This line alone proves Sowell is a conservative and the Neo-cons are not. Would that their prpagandists like Prager, Hewitt and the gang understand this. To them, any pre-political sense of a "nation," is taboo, an expression of nativist impulses. Thus their support for full scale Mexican migartion into the US. Prager and Co. are so clueless they actually think Sowell is "one of them." He is not. He is a genuine conservative of the Roger Scruton variety, not a confused pop philosopher.

The coming split between conservtives and liberals turned Republicans is one party worth staying up for. Get your tickets now.
Sign Up to Post Your CommentsSign Up to Post Your Comments
If you are already registered, click here to login. Otherwise, please take a few seconds to register with Townhall.com. Once you sign up, you’ll be able to post your comments immediately, use the action center, get podcasts, and more!
Note: Fields marked with a red asterisk (*) are required.
Salutation:
First Name:
*
Last Name:
*
Email:
*
Nickname:
*
Note: Nick name will be shown when you post comments.
Address 1:
*
Address 2:
City:
*
State:
*
Zip:
*
Phone:
      
Your daily must-read of conservative columns, cartoons and news. Coulter, Sowell, Krauthammer and more.
(Bi-Weekly) We highlight the best opportunities from our partners for surveys, action items and more.