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Wednesday, September 19, 2007
Thomas Sowell :: Townhall.com Columnist
Mugged By Reality: Part II
by Thomas Sowell
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Nothing is easier than to second-guess other people's decisions, ignoring the inherent limitations of knowledge, the pressures of circumstances, and the dangers of alternative courses of action.

Americans in all parts of the political spectrum have made serious mistakes about Iraq.

Some have been the mistakes of honorable people -- indeed, mistakes to which honorable people may be more prone than others. Other people have acted with utter dishonor and dishonesty -- the most shameful recent example being the smearing of General David Petraeus as a liar before he had said a word.

Precisely because Congressional Democrats already knew that there had been progress after the troop surge in Iraq -- some of their own colleagues had been there and seen it -- they had to discredit General Petraeus, in order to prevent the American people from knowing it.

Democratic Congressman James Clyburn said it all in an unguarded moment when he admitted that an American victory in Iraq "would be a real big problem for us" in next year's elections.

That is why a general who is putting his life on the line every day in Iraq, and whose efforts are producing some success, has to be called a liar on nationwide television by United States Senators and a traitor in a New York Times ad.

What of the mistakes of the Bush administration?

The book "Mugged by Reality" by John Agresto, based on his experiences as a civilian advisor in Iraq, makes it painfully clear that the attempt to create a democracy in Iraq was the biggest failure of good intentions there and the key to much else that went wrong.

The idea was that democratic nations do not fight each other or sponsor terrorist campaigns against one another. Therefore, if we could create a democracy in Iraq, we would have made a historic contribution to world peace by planting the first democracy in the Arab Middle East.

Over time, the spread of that democracy in the region would successively deprive terrorist organizations of the bases and political support needed to wreak havoc in Western nations.

Perhaps the strongest support for this theory came from the actions of the terrorists themselves, who have poured men, money, and weapons into Iraq on a massive scale, and blown themselves up in suicide attacks, in order to prevent this project from succeeding.

However, as Agresto points out in "Mugged by Reality," democracy has prerequisites -- and those prerequisites are not universal, especially not in Iraq.

Of the various governments in Iraq since Saddam Hussein's regime was liquidated, he argues, the most effective was that of the American occupation authorities and the worst those elected by the Iraqis. Agresto spells this out in detail.

President Bush has rejected the idea that some peoples and cultures are not ready for democracy. He points to the large Iraqi turnout at the elections, despite the threats of terrorists. Everyone wants more freedom, he and his supporters say.

Wanting freedom, however, is not the same as wanting others to have the same freedom you have. Such tolerance is not the norm in Iraq.

Nor was it the norm in Western civilization until after Protestants and Catholics fought each other for centuries before finally realizing that neither could exterminate the other. Sunnis and Shi'ites have yet to reach a similar accommodation in Iraq.

Agresto points out how Americans' organizing the Iraqi government on the basis of competing interest groups made reconciliation harder, if not impossible.

He notes that those who founded the United States organized political power on the basis of territory, so that mutual accommodations among people with different views within given communities were a prerequisite for gaining power.

What recent progress has been made in Iraq has apparently been made by mobilizing traditional local and regional Iraqi leaders and coalitions, not by relying on the democratically elected central government. There may be a lesson there.

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Thomas Sowell is a senior fellow at the Hoover Institute and author of The Housing Boom and Bust.
 
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It was right to dissolve the Iraqi Army
This is not directly related to Dr. Sowell's article, but readers might be interested in reading an article titled "It was right to dissolve the Iraqi army" at:

http://www.slate.com/id/2174047/

Coulda/woulda/shoulda
This is just another pathetic example of would/coulda/shoulda. Too late now for reflection--we've yanked open Pandora's box and let the evil swami escape. Now you sheeple are first realizing that not everyone can freely embrace the lofty principles of Jeffersonian democracy????

Maybe the only solution left is to partition Iraq along religious/ethnic lines. Hey, Iraq was a made up country created after World War I by the victorious allies so would it really matter if Irai was partitioned into 3 distinct entities? No one batted an eyelash when the ethnic minorities of the old Soviet Union declared their independence in the 1990's, so why not do the same with Iraq? Let these three groups decide their own destiny already. Sorry, we can't police everyone and stop every nut with a bomb. Time to call it a day.

The Islamic problem in a nutshell!
Dr. Sowell has neatly captured the essence of the problem with Islam, with Middle Eastern society, and with our political posture toward them: these nations and creeds are against freedom on principle. Therefore, the institutions and forms with which free societies attempt to guard freedom, such as democracy and representative government, are of no real interest to them. Subjugating the other guy is always at the top of their agenda.

An unfortunate number of Americans have been acting like that lately, too.

Victory?
Someone please describe victory in Iraq. It certainly was not GWB declaring Victory on a ship somewhere. It certainly was not when Saddam was captured or murdered. Perhaps it will be when we finally get a new President who brings the troops home.

Myths...
...The biggest myth is the liberals claiming Bush declared "mission accomplished".

If you remember,he made that comment about that aircraft carrier,whose crew members he was addressing.The aircraft carrier was sent to the mid-east to support the invasion of Afghanistan.The popular consensus at the time was that the US would have their heads handed to them just like all those invaders in the past(English,Russians,etc.)It was simply too difficult to do.Well,the American armed forces did it in 30 days!That aircraft carrier was returning to California and the captain hung that sign up for his crewmembers.They did in fact accomplish their mission VERY successfully in just 30 days.The left wing in the US has turned that around and said that Bush was referring to the WOT.You can always tell when a Liberal is lying when you can see his lips moving.

Stops just short of the truth
We're all thinking it but no one will say it:

Islam is the problem and no regional fix is going to change that.

no bs artist
"Now you sheeple are first realizing that not everyone can freely embrace the lofty principles of Jeffersonian democracy????"

If the right made this mistake in Iraq, the left is making it here in the West, not so much in America as in Europe. The left wants to let in all these immigrants, and then demands that they be allowed to keep their own horrid, anti-democratic cultures.

The results:

In Oslo, Norway, a rape rate per capita is six times that of New York City. The rapes are perpetrated by Muslim men against Norwegian women, because they aren't dressed "appropriately."

The fatwa against Salman Rushdie, which was made credible by all the Muslim immigrants in Britain.

The murder of Theo van Gogh.

Terrorist attacks in London and Spain, and attempted attacks elsewhere.

And the gradual shift to the right of the native population as entrenched leftist politicians refuse to do anything about all the problems.

Thank you Dr. Sowell!
I am becoming a follower.
Your logic is straight forward and penetrating to the core of the issue.
I have found your discussion to always have been a worthwhile read which does not leave a question begging.
I see you do not inspire many "comments" concerning your work, possibly because you do not leave a mess behind your writing. But, there are still those who spin the topic to their own prejudice and self-interests, as I see.

Not sure where you're going there Warren
The American involvement in Afghanistan and the Middle East did not come about because of some abstract theory regarding the superiority of democratic governments versus despotic dictatorships. We have a problem, and yes, that includes you. We have supported repressive governments in that region because we wanted stability. Well, we did not get stability. Instead we got the cancer of Islamic fanaticism that lead to a series of attacks throughout the world with the biggest occurring right here on 9/11. So, having achieved neither stability nor governments that were good for their people, we decided that we needed to take a new tack.

The concept of turning Iraq into Sweden or the Netherlands in a few years is not our objective. However, if we do not move the forces of history in that direction, however tentatively, it appears that there is a good chance that Sweden and the Netherlands will turn into Iraq. You may want to acquaint yourself with the trend in that direction if you are not already familiar with what’s going on in those countries you hold up as your ideal.

so Japan and Germany
were just flukes? Recall that they were expected to be too warlike to abide by democratic systems.

Yes, there is a long road to go. I find it quite disagreeable, however, to say that a people are somehow incompatible with self-rule. It may take a while (with guidance from us) to get to a system that we like, but the purple fingers held proudly in the air send their own message.

Warren
Term limits on the Presidency were not enacted until after WWII. Your final question is based on a valid premise and leads to the follow up question would be "And if not, why is it that the leftists expect us to do exactly that in less time than is taken up by the average TV drama show?"

Iraq doesn't have to be perfectly
democratic in the monarchial gov't sense of Great Britain or even a pure dem. with direct vote.

As long as it has the form of a representative dem. with concern for proportional rep. of all its disparate parts, it will SILL be a bulwark against Iran's nuclear extortion,

an ex. for the world of how 24,000,000 free people can govern themselves,

a partner for the dem. of Lebanon and maybe Israel,

a buffer for the "moderate" Arabs of Egypt, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia. A damper on Saudi Arabia's Whahhabism.

a self-supporting nation based on its natural resources and busness community (predicted 6% productivity this year),

and an ally for the US and the West.

After all, Italy has had up to 10 gov't's a year, and the libs and cons. in Am. aren't reconciled. Opponents should not conjure up some unmeetable standard to declare Iraq "a success." Perfection is not available anywhere.

What's the Alternative?
I see several comments stating, “Democracy cannot work in Iraq”, “Time to bring the troops home”, “Iraq was a mistake”, and several other basically identical comments that we’ve heard thousands of times now.

However, those with these opinions never provide a solution for the problem of the never-ending Islamic quest to create a Muslim world...by any means necessary. If you believe the killings and terror attacks will stop when we leave the ME, then you haven’t been paying attention and your knowledge of history or even recent events is severely deficient.

It really all boils down to three choices:
1. Try to produce a democratic ME (which many of you believe isn’t possible)
2. Accept anywhere from a few dozen to a few thousand American deaths on a periodic basis as just a fact of life.
3. Launch tactical or strategic nuclear strikes on Syria, Iraq, Iran, possibly Saudi Arabia, and a few other countries (although this would definitely not stop Islamic terrorism)

So, which option do you prefer? Complaining without offering an alternative solution is just whining....and “Bring the troops home and cross your fingers” is not a solution.

Extra IceCream for Sowell tonite
"President Bush has rejected the idea that some peoples and cultures are not ready for democracy. He points to the large Iraqi turnout at the elections, despite the threats of terrorists. Everyone wants more freedom, he and his supporters say.

Wanting freedom, however, is not the same as wanting others to have the same freedom you have. Such tolerance is not the norm in Iraq".

Give Sowell an extra helping of ice cream tonite.

Of course he is right. A cultural of tolerance must exist before freedom can occur.

A cocky arrogance, blinding ignorance, heavily seasoned with a nobility of purpose and a heavy dose of good intentions, were among the ingredients that made up the brew that gave rise to the administration's vision on Iraq.

Our Founding Fathers gleaned some of their ideas from the Enlightenment, and from the study of ancient Rome and Greece.

Attempting to impose such ideas upon fiercely tribal societies, with their own systems of tribal governance and authority, complicated by the limitations on free expression embodied in sharia law, was naive to the nth degree.

President Bush rejects the notion that some peoples are not ready for democracy. I believe he is in error. Some are not, period.

And, while we believe democracy to be the best of all forms of governance, perhaps we are a bit presumptuous and even pateralistic to assume all peoples share our vision.

Dr. Sowell, another gem!
The foundation of the US is not democracy, as has been stated many times, we are a representative Republic (at least that was the original design), but the security of private property and the rule of law.

Unfortunately, we have strayed far from the original form of government in many ways and thanks to some screwy rulings by the SCOTUS, we have even lost the right to property.

Security of the people and their property are prerequisites to Iraq becoming a viable Republic or Democracy (if we are crazy enough to think that a pure Democracy would be a good thing).

The surge is working precisely because it is providing security to the people of Iraq. We must continue to take the fight to the enemy to allow the Iraqi army and police to provide that level of security. That does not mean that all bombings must be stopped, only that the majority be reasonably safe. Just look at Israel, they still have bombers on way too many occasions, but the populace feels relatively safe and their democratic government is still in control and functioning well.

Conservatives Vs Liberals...
Muslims Vs Westerners.

The nations of Europe have drifted to the left so far that their only hope for correction is the Muslim immigrants coming to power and changing the convictions of the leftist people back toward conservative ideas. Sadly the Christian people will have to have their heads chopped off but hey... progress is progress.

What can the USA learn from this mess? I would say we need to kick a liberal in the butt each day and pull the USA back from the lefist grip. As a Christian I would rather not have my head chopped off.

Solutions to Democracy in Iraq
The solutions to democracy in Iraq is to look to our own history. Many some how believe that on July 4, 1776 we suddenly became the United States of America and Jefferson brought the Constitution down from the mountain. [Yes, I know he didn't draft the Constitution, but go asked someone on the street.]

We started down the road to our democracy primarily because the democracy we thought we belonged to decided we didn't, "no taxation without representation". England was a representative democracy. It took ten years of war, internal conflict, and throwing out the first plan and starting over. It wasn't until 1787 that we final had the Constitution and the Bill of Rights was not ratified until 1791.

Now a leftist I know argued that things were different way back then relative to communications, travel, and the news media. NO, democracy in the best of times is hard, very hard work. It is even harder work if the evolution is from a country that has never known democracy except from afar.

Al Qaeda, Sunni fundamentalist Arabs, saw an opportunity to disrupt the game. They had studied the USA long enough to know how. Most of Iraq is Arab not Persian. Most want to die in bed not by blowing themselves up.

Can you imagine for a moment if the USA had remained united in its support of the war on terror? And no the left is opposed to the whole war not just the Iraqi theater.

What makes Democracy unstable...
is the reliance upon lies to sell policy. All politicians lie and the people apparently expect to be lied to.

If we the people demanded truth and punished liars then Democracy could work. But that is only a dream. Lies are more easily believed than truth. Truth hurts and lies feel good.

Human government will always be cursed because of the reliance on lies. Just look at the way political programs are packaged. The better the program sounds the more lies are contained in the salemanship.

"Bush Doctrine"
"President Bush has rejected the idea that some people and cultures are not ready for democracy." But there is a difference between a) having extensive knowledge of the historic, economic, political, and sociological conditions that influence a people and its culture, and b) not really knowing much at all and just relying on instinct. Bush is famously incurious about facts; those who were at school with him have marveled that anyone could get through such good schools and still be so untouched by all that was taught there. This quality has endeared Bush to hordes of Americans who are poorly-educated because they identify with him---his populist appeal has been enormous---and because they are resentful of "elitist" ideas. But "Fools rush in where angels fear to tread." My long-ago college history teacher said that "Democracy worked in the American colonies because most of the colonists were English yeoman farmers backed up by a 500 year-old tradition of self- government." The frat boy who was partying might have missed that statement.

Immediately before coming to Sowell's article I was on the thread about Afghanistan and before responding to it I googled information about Afghan's opium trade. As of 2006, Afghanistan was the major world producer of opium, producing 90% of the world' crop. This represented a 26% increase since 2005, and a 61% increase in land under cultivation to opium. TV specials on this subject have said that the Taliban profits from the opium trade. The Bush administration has acknowledged the truth of this information. To the extent we spent American blood and treasure to clear the way for this situation, we may have wasted our resources. On that thread I predicted that history would look back on the Bush Doctrine as a lovely idea that failed in a most spectacular way. Interesting, then, to come to this thread and find a very similar point of view.

Dr. Sowell for President
Is there a better writer then Thomas Sowell when it comes to economics,histoy or politics.

The way he lays down the foundation for his position makes all of his ideas seem like common sense. He is also very entertaining and enlightening.

Sowell for President.

Warren
Thank you for making my point and Germany and Japan: the choosing of autocratic forms of government, when given a choice, was taken as proof that the people of their nations were not ready to be a truly representative system. They seemed to prefer a darwinian "might-makes-right" outlook regarding their neighbours, and had to be talked (or forced) out of this preference.

One question was whether their seeming need to dominate others could be tempered (by outside forces). History has shown that they can. This is our hope for Iraq: a stable country that is a good neighbour and serves as a model for surrounding nations.

Warren
Wow, after reading your rants for a few months now, it is overwhelmingly obvious; you actually and truly hate your country...not in the “I’m just trying to make it better” way...you actually despise everything the US has done in the past, everything it stands for, and everything it is currently doing.

I know it’s a cliché, but why don't you just move to another country? We would all be much happier.

Self-rule vs Consent
Of course self-rule can not be imposed. The very idea is oxymoronic. Self-rule is, by definition, a bottom up process that must originate from and be sustained by the people themselves. More fundamental than self-rule is the notion of government by consent of the governed. Personally, I have no problem with the people of an autonomous state being happily ruled by a benevolent monarchy if that is what they want or, indeed, by a communist state or even a dictatorship, although I wouldn’t want those for myself. The problem is in sustaining that consent if and when that monarchy/communist state/dictatorship turns malevolent. Only some form of self-rule can sustain the desired consent. Consent of the governed is the goal, self-rule is the means to sustain it.

Of course, self-rule brings with it a lot of ongoing hard work and responsibility. That is why it can only work when the people want it enough. I am not sure all of the purple fingers we saw being so proudly brandished in Iraq were in support of self-rule so much as they were in support of consent of the governed. Many, I suspect, would have been quite happy had the resulting consensual government been Shari law practiced by their particular regional/ethnic Islamic leaders. I think Bush was right to the extent that most people want to consent to the manner by which they are governed. That, after all, is to say no more than that they want to be governed in a manner by which they are prosperous and content. I think he was wrong to suppose that they therefore understood and were prepared for the necessary hard work, responsibilities, sacrifices and compromises that lay ahead in developing the self-rule required to sustain it.

Self-rule vs Consent
Of course self-rule can not be imposed. The very idea is oxymoronic. Self-rule is, by definition, a bottom up process that must originate from and be sustained by the people themselves. More fundamental than self-rule is the notion of government by consent of the governed. Personally, I have no problem with the people of an autonomous state being happily ruled by a benevolent monarchy if that is what they want or, indeed, by a communist state or even a dictatorship, although I wouldn’t want those for myself. The problem is in sustaining that consent if and when that monarchy/communist state/dictatorship turns malevolent. Only some form of self-rule can sustain the desired consent. Consent of the governed is the goal, self-rule is the means to sustain it.

Of course, self-rule brings with it a lot of ongoing hard work and responsibility. That is why it can only work when the people want it enough. I am not sure all of the purple fingers we saw being so proudly brandished in Iraq were in support of self-rule so much as they were in support of consent of the governed. Many, I suspect, would have been quite happy had the resulting consensual government been Shari law practiced by their particular regional/ethnic Islamic leaders. I think Bush was right to the extent that most people want to consent to the manner by which they are governed. That, after all, is to say no more than that they want to be governed in a manner by which they are prosperous and content. I think he was wrong to suppose that they therefore understood and were prepared for the necessary hard work, responsibilities, sacrifices and compromises that lay ahead in developing the self-rule required to sustain it.

If Iraq is a poorly managed mistake,
so what. The issue on the table is really what to do about it now, and that has been answered by General Petraeus. Allow the surge to continue its mission of reducing violence and providing time for the Iraqi government to get its act together.

Beyond that, the U.S. should allow the people of Iraq (and everywhere else for that matter) to work out their own future. The re-deployment strategy of the Demcorats is not any solution at all. Consider these points:
1. Continue the training of the Iraqi Army. OK, we are doing that anyway, so nothing new there.
2. Change the U.S. combat mission to hunting down AQI terrorists. This is impossible to do since we would then have to ask every nut with a gun who is shooting people if he is AQ or just a local Iraqi "freedom fighter". The absurdity of that propositon is apparent with just a moment of thinking about it.
3. Guard the borders is the other point of the re-deployment idea, and this is the worst one. If we stand guard on the Iranian border and get into a fight with Iranian troops, then what? Do we go to war with Iran? No doubt the Democrats advocating re-deployment would then scream that the President provoked the Iranians to start a new neo-con war.

Let the surge work and start doing some real international diplomacy with the neighboring Arab states to try to get them to accept and work with the new Iraq government. This aspect of the entire Iraq war is what is sorely missing and urgently needed.

For further info on this and other challenges facing us, I urge you to visit my website, JOEOLIVAFORPRESIDENT.ORG. Check it out, it is filled with common sense ideas to real problems. Thanks, Joe

&^%$#*&....
Sorry about the double post. I do try to avoid them

Presidential Term Limits
Warren Small Writes:

' "Term limits on the Presidency were not enacted until after WWII."

But they were de rigueur-- not needing the force of law-- until FDR smashed the convention.'

Sorry Mr. Small, but you are incorrect regarding Presidential Term Limits. Prior to the end of WW-II, there was absolutely nothing in the constitution that limited the number of terms a president could serve. That presidents served two terms was more of a tradition based on the fact that President Washington felt that a president should not serve more than two terms due to his aversion to establishing a monarchy or a dynasty. The fact that we now have Presidential Term Limits is due more to politics than anything else.

Democracy is part of the problem.
Democracy is rule by the majority, whatever the majority happens to be and whatever it happens to want. In its most consistent form, the wishes of the majority outweigh everyhting else, like law, custom and individual rights.

Therefore we see things like a democratically elected terrorist government in the Palestinian Authority (Hammas), which can claim legitimacy before the West (Hammas itself recognizes the weapon of democracy).

In Iraq we may yet see a democratically elected Islamic Theocracy. What good would that do us, or iraq?

The real solution lies in setting up representative governments (that is, governments chose by a majority but which adhere to the rule of law as codified in a constitution) that respect and protect the individual rights of their people. Such are the kind of states that do not wantotnly go to war against each other and do not sponsor terrorism.

Catastrophic immigration
And have you heard: The latest of el Presidente Jorge Bush's solutions to ethnic unrest is to "resettle" some 6000 Iraqis in the U.S. this coming year -- and in the nest several years "resettle" an estimated total of 60,000.

Just what we need -- more Muslims to further UNsettle our cultue.

Dr. Sowell is correct again
Another great article. I really have fun reading the comments on your articles, all over the place. As a country we are unfortunately left of center. It's way past time to correct course towards the center.

Oh, let's just be forward looking.
That's great advice, coming from criminals. I would love to be a bank robber and have the jury agree with that one: "Why bother looking at the past, let's just look at the future. Of course, I'll be good from here on out. I may even give back some of the money, if I can find it."

See, we on the "left", which in this case means anyone not completely snowed by fear propoganda, we all knew the Iraq invasion was doomed to failure. Just go back an review Doonesbury. How can you call it a mistake, when anyone with any common sense knew that was a disaster waiting to happen. And they were told: even while doing a little dance (so his little boy could keep a job) Colin Powell mentioned the possibility that the "China" might break if it fell off the shelf. So, how could it have been that we un-informed "loonies" were right, where all you gun-toters were wrong?

No, Iceman, there are other possibilities.

1. Give the Iraqi people their oil revenue (the much debated Oil law allows U.S. Corporations keep about 90%). That would have the effect of making the government sovereign.
2. Prosecute American War Criminals - Shock and Awe was a supreme act of Terrorism meant to terrify the population into submission, and any war for the purpose of capturing or controling resources is illegal. As a witness of that refer to Alan Greenspan - the war was about OIL.
3. Allow prosecution of Blackwater.

With those three actions American forces will actually have legitimate occupational power to establish the rule of law.

As long as the Iraq government has no legitimacy, there can never be any movement towards self-rule.


Iraqis not ready for democracy?
Is it reasonable for anyone who has lived under the tyranny of a ruling terrorist like Saddam Hussein, whose "might makes right" philosophy was painfully inflicted in their daily lives, to suddenly be presented with the opportunity to be a democracy and embrace it without question? How foolish and myopic can you be? An evolution of thought has to take place in an atmosphere of societal stability before anyone can be judged to be capable or incapable of accepting democratic philosophy and governance. It seems incredibly arrogant to say that because we accept democracy and Iraqis are not that somehow they are not capable of "getting" it.

Go look back and look at our own beginnings and how the patriots and the sympathizers of the crown behaved toward each other following the defeat of the British Army. They slaughtered each other until our own army was sent to stop them and secure the peace. The point is people are basically the same. They all want freedom. The obstacle to overcome is, as Dr. Sowell so brilliantly put it, is to get people to allow others to have the same freedom. Heck the Dems are trying to do it here! Hello Fairness Doctrine. So lighten up on the Iraqi people that have been battered on many fronts. It will take awhile, but I think they have the capacity to be a democracy.

Renny and Icedog
I agree with you.

"However, those with these opinions never provide a solution for the problem of the never-ending Islamic quest to create a Muslim world...by any means necessary."

It's easy to criticize President Bush, but think about the enormous challenge that GB has undertaken with Iraq. Indeed his quest is greater than the one our ancestors undertook to create the free world in America. Our president is a visionary.

No one in the world has even come close to a solution for dealing with 1.5 billion Muslims in danger of being recruited for a murdering, suicidal ideology that wants to overthrow all the governments of the world and cause everyone to bow to their hateful god.

Until we can come up with a better idea, maybe we should all keep our mouths shut.

Ann Coulter may have been right...
Kill their leaders and convert the rest to Christianity. True Christianity would resolve the issue. The problem is that very few practice TRUE Christianity.

Islam is the problem. In Islam every group wants to be the ruling class and none of them have the power to win. Even with Iran helping the Sunni and Kurds will fight to the death, over who's leader is the right one.

Maybe we should do what one of my Yugoslavian friends said was needed in his home country. He said, "Put a fence of armies around the country, give everyone guns and kill the last man standing."

The left hates Bush personally
so much they are blind to any accomplishment.

I am not an unregeneratre Bushie (do not like his immigration ideas or his blindness to our pourous southern border), but I do think taking out Saddam was just a continuation of US and UN policy: in 1998, the Senate voted unanimously for regime change in Iraq.

The US has always been the only functioning war arm of the UN. It had passed 17 resolutions and various threats against Saddam to no purpose. Saddam had thrown out the UN iweapons nspectors, was shooting at US and British planes in the no-fly zones, and had taken "oil for food" money (something the left never mentions) to terrorize his people--not to feed them--and build palaces for his glorification.

As a sideline, Saddam was helping make suicide bombing the terror du jour (Arafat deserves accolades for inventing suicide bombings, something else we hear nothing about) by giving $25,000 to each suicide's family. He had gassed 1000s of Kurds and massacred 1000s of Shi'itess.

We had abandoned the Kurds and the Shi'ites after 1991 and owed them retribution.

The surge is working because 1) we are taking and holding territory, 2) the Iraqis are stepping up in their own locales and fighting back against al Qaida and foreign mercenaries, and 3) business is reviving which does 2 major things: A) gives people income AND B) occupies many of those young men who have too much aggressive time on their hands.

Blind hatred for Bush should not cripple Dems. and libs. from seeing that success in Iraq benefits the world.

is Iraq worth it?
Is this war actually a just one? Is this war in the national interest?

In a word, no. Iraq was not worth one American life. Not one. That remains as true today as it was in 2002.

A weak, fractured despotism that had been economically half-starved into compliance not only didn’t pose a serious threat to anyone, but couldn’t even begin to do so. We might as well regard Zimbabwe as a major threat to the world by the standards used to judge Iraq to be a threat.

There are three elements to my position: strategic, legal and moral.

Success in its most optimistic, pre-invasion terms of a genuinely liberal democratic Iraq that would make peace with Israel and serve as a model for the region was not actually ever possible for many of the reasons antiwar conservatives gave before the war, but suppose for a moment that it was possible. Wouldn’t that great dream have been worth it? No, not at all. Two reasons: 1) America should never, barring an attack or uncontainable threat from that country’s government, attempt to dictate through the use of force the political future of any other country; 2) even the most optimistic scenario of liberal democratic Eden serves no compelling U.S. interests.




To choose war, as our government indeed did, is to choose to unleash all the horrors of war on people who have done no lasting, grave or permanent harm to us. They may or may not be wretched, awful people. They may or may not be tyrants. Whether they are or not is actually irrelevant to the question of whether our government has the right to commit aggression against another state. The bottom line is that the attacked state has done nothing to deserve our attack on it. How much less, then, do the civilians killed in the process deserve it? How can a war of aggression ever be “worth” the moral stain and illegality that it entails? How can unleashing hell on earth without cause ever be worthwhile? It cannot be. That is the answer .


Patience For Success
Should America walk away from Iraq because all the time tables havn't been met?

On Monday 17 September 2007 the 220th aniversary of the ratification of our Constitution, democrats were still calling for the early withdrawl of our armed forces from Iraq.

Let's see, the Constitution was ratified in 1787 a full eleven years, 2 months, and thirteen days after we declared our Independance. It took another one year, seven months, and 13 days before George Washington took his oath to become America's first president.

Our current batch of congressmen should be embarrassed by their impatience, they can't hold a candle to the First & Second Continental Congress who had the patience to see through the tough times of not being able to meet "time tables" and were able to found our Great Nation.

At this point in time we owe Iraq no less.

A Will Rogers moment.
Congress has opinions concerning the functioning of an elected government?

Please!!!! At least have some experience in governing a free people before you offer advice to a counrty with almonst twice the voter participation of your own country.

Modernity VS Western
There is a great problem about Western values in Iraq.Democracy wont bring these values to iraqi people,but reinforce their own values.That happened in Turkey after Kemal Ataturk,in India after Gandhi and many other non-western countries that tried to embrace our values.The people who take part in the democratic elections are the same people who will reject western values by constitutional means.I would even say that its much more easy to make reforms and cultural changes under a tyranny than under a democracy.Modernization doesnt imply ¨westernization¨,but the opposite.Maybe Iraqis just dont want to embrace our values,and the only thing US government can do is fight against terrorism and make sure no other government gives support to terrorist organizations.Despite that i dont believe Islam is gonna suffer significant changes and doesnt even have to,because its not a ¨bad¨ religion.Many people say that Islam is a religion of violence and backwardness but it isnt.We fight not against Islam but against terrorists who are the perversion of Islam,not the core of it.Most islamics dont agree with terrorists actions and thats another reason why they must be fought merciless
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