Townhall.com, Where Your Opinion Counts
Talk Radio:   Bill Bennett   Mike Gallagher   Dennis Prager   Michael Medved   Hugh Hewitt   
BREAKING NEWS  LeftArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican   RightArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican  
Columns, funnies & more in your inbox!
  • Check the boxes and send us your email address to receveive your free newsletter
  • Your daily must-read of conservative columns, cartoons and news. Coulter, Sowell, Krauthammer and more.
  • Townhall.com’s weekly inside scoop on what’s happening behind the scenes in the world of politics. When news breaks, we report.
  • Signup to receive the latest daily Townhall cartoons
Tuesday, September 18, 2007
Thomas Sowell :: Townhall.com Columnist
Mugged By Reality
by Thomas Sowell
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
[+] Text [-]
 
Poll
Was the Copenhagen Global Warming Summit Walk-Out a Win for the U.S.?


In a world where the tragedy that is Iraq is usually discussed only in media sound bites and political slogans, it is especially gratifying to see an adult, intelligent, and insightful account of life inside Iraq by someone who lived there for nine months in the early days of the occupation in 2003 and 2004, and who saw the fundamental mistakes that would later plague the attempt to create a viable Iraqi government.

John Agresto, a career American academic and former college president who volunteered to go help create a better higher education system in Iraq, learned a lot about Iraqi society in general and about American attempts to create a better society there.

His recently published book is titled "Mugged by Reality" and is subtitled: "The Liberation of Iraq and the Failure of Good Intentions."

What is refreshingly different about this book is that it does not take the Bush administration line, the Congressional Democrats' line or anybody else's line.

Agresto is not out to prove some theory or push some pet scheme but to convey what he saw with his own eyes and discerned from his own experiences with both Iraqis and Americans in Iraq.

He makes no claim to infallibility but in fact admits to being forced to change his mind by what he saw.

Initially a supporter of the invasion, he now says that he would not have been a supporter if he had known beforehand how the occupation would be mishandled and the results that followed. But he also recognizes that we cannot unring the bell and simply leave, for that would lead to even worse consequences, not only in Iraq but elsewhere, not only to others but to ourselves.

The worst mistake, in Agresto's view, was the failure to establish law and order in the wake of the military victory, before undertaking the grandiose project of attempting to create democracy in Iraq. From this fundamental mistake, many of the other tragedies followed.

In the absence of law and order, there was widespread violence, looting, rape -- in short, the war of each against all that Hobbes warned about, centuries ago.

As for democracy, Agresto understands that the right to vote is no guarantee of freedom, toleration or respect for the rights of others. Without those prerequisites, democracy can mean tyranny at home and terrorism abroad.

Apparently the American civilian authorities in Iraq did not understand this or else they let that understanding be overridden by political considerations. By setting up a government based on warring factions, they made cooperation in the national interest a very unlikely prospect.

Today, when more and more Iraqis are rejecting the outside terrorists whom the media keep calling "insurgents," and when our military is restoring more order than Iraq has seen in a while, the most intractable problem is the very government we set up.

General David Petraeus is mentioned only a couple of times, and briefly, in "Mugged by Reality." But those brief mentions seem to be revealing.

Right after the success of military operations in Iraq, General Petraeus' 101st Airborne had control of the city of Mosul. According to Agresto, "he ran it in radically different ways than the rest of Iraq was run" -- and Mosul was "calm" in contrast to other parts of Iraq.

Then, after control of Mosul was passed on to others, it "began to rival the worst sections of Baghdad for attacks on Coalition forces and violence against Iraqis."

One of the ways in which Petraeus ran Mosul differently from the way things were done in the rest of Iraq, according to Agresto, was not to get rid of existing public officials wholesale, despite their being members of the former ruling Baath Party.

Somebody has to run the basic institutions that make civilized life possible -- and you can't just get rid of those who know how to run those institutions before you have someone qualified to replace them. Apparently General Petraeus was pragmatic enough to understand that.

We may, belatedly, have found a man and an approach that work.

Share:
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
 
About The Author
Thomas Sowell is a senior fellow at the Hoover Institute and author of The Housing Boom and Bust.
 
TOWNHALL DAILY: Sign up today and receive Thomas Sowell and Townhall.com's daily lineup delivered each morning to your inbox.
 
©Creators Syndicate
Two "off-the-wall" suggestions!
1) FIVE YEAR PLAN (with a twist)
Adopt a different model to our foreign policy. Offer the 'failed' states of the world the opportunity to temporarily become the Nth state of the US.

If a majority of people in a country accept this, that country will adopt our Constitution and our system of laws for 5 years.

During that period, the US will provide security and law-and-order. The new 'citizens' will live and work as 'Americans' for 5 years, and see if laissez-faire capitalism and individual freedom make sense. At the end of 5 years, have a referendum on the type of system to follow for the future.

PS: we could try this in Iraq. If successful, people in other countries will compete with each other to try the same experiment!

2) eBAY IN IRAQ vs AL QAIDA IN IRAQ

Imagine this: a well guarded Fort Knox-style Bank in downtown Baghdad (and other major Iraqi cities), built around oil revenue credits and voluntary (not tax coerced) funds by American citizens, Iraqis and anyone else who wants to invest in the Iraqi experiment.

The Bank lends money at market-determined rates to Iraqis (and others) that have credible business plans and decent credit. Borrowers lacking credit histories would begin with 'micro' loans and establish themselves gradually, monitored eBay-style, via feedback from previous transactions! People with criminal records - or those who violate laws, are automatically 'dinged' on their credit scores!

Yes, it is the eBay model!
--------------excerpt ends-----------------------
Read the rest of the article at: http://voice.townhall.com/g/42775708-8eb4-4bf9-8383-3739a6a0b01e

VoR -- It'll never work.
We've had Puerto Rico as a possession for just forever. As it is now, they get most of the benefits of being Americans, such as military protection etc.

But if they became a state, they'd have to start paying income taxes.

Doesn't Warren Small...
...ever sleep? Every morning he has to go into his "THE NEOCONS ARE COMING! THE NEOCONS ARE COMING!shtick(whatever they are).Yeah,I know,I shouldn't laugh because the guy really should seek help,but what else can we do?Just laugh and move on.

Democracy
Yes Dr. Sowell, it is good to see that you agree that Democracy does not mean "freedom". One only need to look no further than the history of the U.S. for that. Democracy only means that a number of people will vote to establish the laws. In reality in the U.S. it is not the majority of the people and in most elections, it is not even the majority of the people eligible to vote! What we wind up with is a "plurality" determining the laws. Not long ago we held two elections in my home country here regarding school issues and taxation. The school board wanted to issue bonds to build a couple of new school buildings and football stadiums. The bonds would be financed by a two cent increase in sales tax. This is following a series of increases in sales taxes AND property taxes for the past few years for the purpose of improving schools. (Note: Since I have been here the sales tax has increased by a factor of 3 and property taxes have increased by a factor of 2.5). Well, the election was initially held during a normal November election and it was soundly defeated. This wasn’t good enough for the money spenders. They connived around to get a "special election" held the next year when no other issues were being voted on. Well they won this time. You see the schools are where you vote here and since they had to close the schools to vote all the teachers had the day off so they could go down and vote. The spenders and taxers won by a vote of about 1500, which represents about the population of country employees. The tax and spenders celebrated calling it an "overwhelming victory by 2 to 1 margins. Never mind that they got it passed by 1500 votes in a county with a population of 67,000. So in effect, 2% of the population decided a tax increase. That’s democracy for you.

Nam65-66
After reading a few of his posts I determined that they were a waste of bandwidth and he became another "scrollby" along with Phylo and others.

country?
should be county

In Warren's "small" mind:
We entered WWII for French wines and cheese, England and to start the military industrial complex.

This American, BTW, does believe we need to stay and finish the job. Yeah, it would be easy to pack up and leave but tragic for the Iraqi people. That message is no more accepted by conservatives than by you Warren, with your "small" mind.


Vic
Fisrt, the obligatory reminder that THE UNITED STATES IS NOT A DEMOCRACY, IT IS A REPUBLIC. Too bad whatever school you attend does not require you to say the Pledge of Allegiance, or you would know that.

A democracy is 12 wolves and a sheep voting on what is for lunch. Like socialism, it cannot work except in lifeboats.

Dr. Sowell is absolutely correct that what should have been done first above all was establish law and order. As anyone who has ever brought up or taught children knows all too well, if you do not draw that line in the sand the very first day, it becomes exponentially harder to draw it as the days go by. Turning people loose on their own recognizance who have been severely repressed all their lives is a certain recipe for disaster. Take a look around any football team (does Michael Vick come to mind?) or basketball team (paging Dennis Rodman), or ask Danny Heatly who wentfrom a Nissan Sentra to a Ferrari 430 in one step and ended up killing a teammate.

That is the error of declaring the war over before it is in fact over, and forcing the soldiers to hand over control to the Nannies.

As supernanny proves every week, it is possible to make up for this error. But it takes longer and harder work, and it cannot be done without acrimony. That is what Gen. Petraeus is facing now. God grant him the wisdom to keep going.

AudiR10
LOL, it's been a long long time since I attended any school on a regular basis, although I was involved with teaching adults for 8.5 years. If you had been following my posts here on TH you would know that I am currently retired.

As for Republic v Democracy yes, technically we are a Republic. However, it is often called a "Representative Democracy" which is more accurate. A Republic can be a group of individual sub-states that nominate representatives via a governor who is a "dictator for life". In any case, I don’t see where this "picking at gnats" on the definition changes the point I was making. People voting doesn’t assure freedom, it only gives the crooks more room to operate, as Heinlein used to say.

And BTW, although it has been a while since I "pledged allegiance to the flag and the REPUBLIC for which it stands" I did take an oath to defend the Constitution against all enemies, both foreign and domestic.

back to the article
Sowell is right again and Agresto seems to have made some pretty good points. Freedom is not the equilvalent of voting but of security. Security is everyone respecting everyone else's right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness (or being secure in his possessions). When I lived in a neighborhooe where I knew everyone respected my property rights, I didn't need to lock my doors. When I live in a neighborhood where not everyone agrees that I have the right to private property I need to lock my doors and keep my 9mm handy.

Iraqis today need the security of knowing that their fellow Iraqis, the Iranians and al Quaeda have either signed up to respect their rights or that the liberators (U.S. and coalition) will bring to justice or eliminate those who would do them mischief. Further, we need the Iraqis to understand that we are there for the long haul (translated - until the vast majority of the populace is willing to live under the strictures of respecting each others' rights) so that jumping onto our wagon won't leave them hanging when we leave early (everyone remembers Vietnam).

That needs to be our policy and the small minded need to sit down and keep quiet while the adults are at work.

grand visions not grounded in reality
Not long ago I saw a speech delivered by John Agresto, televised on C-Span2.

Much of it concerned his book, "Mugged By Reality".

Although I have not read the book, my recollection of Agresto's speech was that he originally supported the administration's contention to establish a democracy in Iraq.

And, as Sowell points out, what changed Agresto's mind was the growing realization that in the absence of a culture or tradition that respects dissent and the rights of minorities, no amount of grandiose and breathtakingly naive visions about democracy, nor numbers of "elections", can substitute for that culture or tradition.

We could impose a "democracy", but that would require a much larger presence of U.S. troops, for an indefinite period of time.

The American people will not support such an approach.

The thinking that led to the decision to invade was not grounded in reality. False assumptions were made, largely based on ignorance, and the counsels of some Iraqi exiles, who had not lived in Iraq for decades, were accepted with little scrutiny as to whether they had an agenda.

A relevant quote that applies to Iraq: "The effect of liberty on individuals is that they may do as they please; we ought to see what it will please them to do before we risk congratulations" Edmund Burke.

Small on the election
Whenever it is said, the lie has to be responded to. Bush did not steal the election in 2000. Gore failed to steal it. For that matter, Bush didn't steal it in 2004. Kerry decided not to try to steal it (in Ohio). Democrats tend to try to take things that don't belong to them.

Patton/Petraeus
Sgt Relic remembers as I do that Patton did not de-Nazifi his occupation zone in Germancy fast enough to satisfy congress and was fired for pointing out the near truth that being a Nazi in Germany was something like being a repubilcan or democrat in the US.

Technically the US is a democracy within a republic. If you notice in the constitution the federal government is required only to ensure that all states mainatin a republican form of government. Imperial Athens was a democracy and suffered many of the ills that we now suffer regarding foreign and domestic policy.

If you look at America's successful, and unsuccessful occupations (or nation building) you find that successful nation building revolves around creating safety (aka security) and establishing the rule of law and basic governmental services and then establishing democracy while unsuccessful nation building starts by establishing democracy. Success is also a long term deal. It took fifty years in Germany, Japan, Korea, and the Phillipines. The American south suffered the effects of failed reconstruction policies for over 100 years. Haiti, Cuba, and Nicarauga were short term successes but long term failures.

If you try to establish democracy without establishing democracy all you are doing is establishing a new set of tyrants.

Patton/Petraeus
Sgt Relic remembers as I do that Patton did not de-Nazifi his occupation zone in Germancy fast enough to satisfy congress and was fired for pointing out the near truth that being a Nazi in Germany was something like being a repubilcan or democrat in the US.

Technically the US is a democracy within a republic. If you notice in the constitution the federal government is required only to ensure that all states mainatin a republican form of government. Imperial Athens was a democracy and suffered many of the ills that we now suffer regarding foreign and domestic policy.

If you look at America's successful, and unsuccessful occupations (or nation building) you find that successful nation building revolves around creating safety (aka security) and establishing the rule of law and basic governmental services and then establishing democracy while unsuccessful nation building starts by establishing democracy. Success is also a long term deal. It took fifty years in Germany, Japan, Korea, and the Phillipines. The American south suffered the effects of failed reconstruction policies for over 100 years. Haiti, Cuba, and Nicarauga were short term successes but long term failures.

If you try to establish democracy without establishing democracy all you are doing is establishing a new set of tyrants.

A Metaphor
A little boy decides to "STEAL" a cookie before "DINNER".Unfortunately in his "HASTE" to get the COOKIE, he causes the "COOKIE JAR" to fall and "Break".His mother walks in and ask;What happened?He responds with, "I didn't mean to do it"!He did not say "I was trying to steal a COOKIE and the Jar fell"!This is the Metaphor for Iraq.America is so conflicted by Iraq,that it cannot find it's way.A mature country would have a different,more honest response.That is our dilemma!We are "STRUGGLING" with our maturity as a nation and that's never "GOOD".

A Metaphor
A little boy decides to "STEAL" a cookie before "DINNER".Unfortunately in his "HASTE" to get the COOKIE, he causes the "COOKIE JAR" to fall and "Break".His mother walks in and ask;What happened?He responds with, "I didn't mean to do it"!He did not say "I was trying to steal a COOKIE and the Jar fell"!This is the Metaphor for Iraq.America is so conflicted by Iraq,that it cannot find it's way.A mature country would have a different,more honest response.That is our dilemma!We are "STRUGGLING" with our maturity as a nation and that's never "GOOD".

Small on the war 1
Oh, and of course we went into Iraq because there was oil there. We've yet to steal any, of course, since we didn't go there to steal it. We went there to secure the region so that no one else could steal it, but we did go there for oil.

We also went there because the area was a tinterbox. Hussein was out of control, the U.N. was incapable of managing him (or anyone else), and Bush and his team decided that with Islamofacism (though we weren't using that term them) so insanely on the rise, stabilizing the region the hard way looked to be the only way it would get done.

Bush hasn't lied yet. He said this would take a long time. He said lots of things. None of them was, "We're going in just because they have WMD, the islamic world is not a problem, it's OK, we'll be in and out in a year". His plan was culture change in the middle east, not nation building. Nation building is just a tool.

Small on the war 2
Deplomacy works with people who believe you are worth talking to. At that time, due to the Clinton apresidency (spelled correctly) very few people in the world believed that we carried a big stick or any stick at all. Clinton was routinely ignored, for good reason. He repeatedly threatened, and repeatedly did not follow through. He was a mini-UN all by himself - he could certainly speak out so many sides of his mouth at once that he sounded like the UN.

If he had not been so useless, perhaps the neocons would not have had the opportunity they had. They read into the region's future and saw that Iran would have it, eventually, and that Wahabbi Islam could not allow that, and that things could only get very, very bad.

In any case, something had to be done. Nation building in Iraq isn't what I'd have done, but no one else would do anything, and this is what Bush chose to do. Don't like it Small? Tough. You've offered some really good comments in and around all the uselessly antagonizing yap. Consider commenting on what might better have been done, and when.

Bush intended to stick us in there so that we couldn't easily get out, to force a permanent change on the region. This was on purpose. If a lot of it wasn't well handled, well, again, tough. No one else was doing anything at all.

Small on the war 2
Deplomacy works with people who believe you are worth talking to. At that time, due to the Clinton apresidency (spelled correctly) very few people in the world believed that we carried a big stick or any stick at all. Clinton was routinely ignored, for good reason. He repeatedly threatened, and repeatedly did not follow through. He was a mini-UN all by himself - he could certainly speak out so many sides of his mouth at once that he sounded like the UN.

If he had not been so useless, perhaps the neocons would not have had the opportunity they had. They read into the region's future and saw that Iran would have it, eventually, and that Wahabbi Islam could not allow that, and that things could only get very, very bad.

In any case, something had to be done. Nation building in Iraq isn't what I'd have done, but no one else would do anything, and this is what Bush chose to do. Don't like it Small? Tough. You've offered some really good comments in and around all the uselessly antagonizing yap. Consider commenting on what might better have been done, and when.

Bush intended to stick us in there so that we couldn't easily get out, to force a permanent change on the region. This was on purpose. If a lot of it wasn't well handled, well, again, tough. No one else was doing anything at all.

A successful democracy depends
on all the things that DON'T exist in the Middle East. First of all, you can't have a mind-set where blood feuds are the norm. This vicious cycle of settling debts or wrongs will never allow a democracy to be established. And that's just one of the problems. It's like trying to plant tomatoes on your concrete driveway and expecting them to grow and produce tomatoes in the next few months. It just isn't going to happen, no matter how much you water them and watch over them.

On the other hand if you break up and remove the concrete to get to the rich soil underneath, you may have a good chance of producing a good crop.

Today in Iraq, we are doing nothing but watering the driveway.

An orderly civil society
Of all the mistakes made in Iraq, the worst was the Bush/Rumsfeld/Bremer, et.al. decision to remove all former Baathists from civil positions.
Patton understood that keeping water flowing, lights burning, and public safety functions operating was essential to maintaining order in an occupied nation. Therefore, he refused to remove Nazis from key positions until he had qualified replacements. Many of the Iraqis serving in the government were not Saddam loyalists, but were party menbers only for employment purposes. The Bush debaathification guaranteed that Iraq would be occupied without a viable and stable civil administration.

I was in Iraq...
for the invasion and the earliest part of the war. In my heart, I knew there was no way we could keep order there. Too many of them and not enough of us. GEN Shinseki tried to tell SEC DEF Rumsfeld that and he was unceremoniously dumped. A number of grave mistakes were made in the early occupation of Iraq. Chiefly the wholesale demobilization of their army and not employing the Baathists on our side. As for democracy in the middle east, it is like giving a pig a Rolex. The pig neither appreciates it nor knows what to do with it.

You say republic, I say republic....
I think that maybe the term "constitutional republic" covers what we are pretty well. Republics elect representatives, but under the framework of a constitution that guarantees various rights, one of which is the ability to vote for the leader who cannot therefore be a dictator.

While Dr. Sowell is correct that if you want to establish a nation, you need to establish order firs, I have to say that my prefered strategy has been, and will continue to be, one of punishment of rogue states, not pouring billions into them to make them into our own image. It would be nice to build new shiny nations, but it's expensive and difficult. Instead, a "break their stuff" and "turn out the lights" policy should apply.

In Iraq the "invasion" should have gone like this.

Invade and eliminate their military power and hunt down Saddam. Find and publically execute him. This sends a relatively cheap message to every idiot dictator in the world that his life won't go so well if he decides to rabble rouse and threaten the US.

We could have already done the same to Iran via an air campaign by now.

Then seal our borders to unscreened persons. If you want to enter, you have to be checked out, period.

While I hate to agree with crazy libs, much of our foreign conflict has been over things like oil and the global economic struggle. I'm more isolationist for that reason. Globalism creates wealth, but what nobody wants to talk about is the huge costs of the large standing military, wars, and security issues caused by becoming inmeshed in 3rd world fights. Trade with friends only. Trading for oil with Arabs and Persian Muslims is like going into business with the mob. It may go well for a while, but eventually they cause you problems. Same for China. We'll one day regret our involvement with them too.







Yes Warren it was the neocons...

Reality Check.
Any first year political science student knows that the existing inter and outer structures of institutions as simple as a village government are set, and a disruption without an enforceable plan is suicide.
Not that this is the situation in Iraq that was or is being completely ignored, but the idea that we "won" a war with them obviously is.
A lot more bloodshed amoung the leadership had to happen. Our "limited" form of engagement is an exercise in "showing off" and has been since the Civil war.
There has to be a "Sherman" & thank God we didn't know what a nuke would do prior to dropping two of them in Japan or that war would have left Russia the only superpower in the world.
Americans love to "show off" but only for the moment. Once the glamour is gone, the rest just gets ugly.
Lots of book sales & opportunities for the "if it feels good do it" crowd.
When America runs out of credit, we will see what "change" is all about.

Dear Sentido,
In case you haven't noticed, major changes are taking place in America and China. While they are starting to embrace captilalism we are starting to embrace socialism. One day soon, we will have switched places, especially if we leave it to the Clintonistas.

Warren
First, congrats on writing a post without using the word, "neocon". Granted, it was only a few words....but it's a good start (just think "baby steps").

Second, if war in Iraq is just "our" problem and not your problem, what country do you live in? ...or are you just one of the lowlife types who enjoy the fruits of this country, but wouldn't lift a finger to defend it (even verbally). I bet you actually smile every time you hear another soldier has been killed or injured.

The War on Islamo-fascism's Iraq Phase..
.... was, in a matter of a few days, won by America's unbeatable Military, without a single hoest Iraqi running to a foreign land and becoming a refugee.

And then the very same war was then lost by America's two most tenuously-perfidious enemies: the vast criminal enterprises that collectively call themselves the "Democrats" and by Foggy Bottom's Socialist-International-directed and sychophantically servile basta*d offspring of the Soviet-agents, Alger Hiss et al-descended Brahmanas and by that self-annointing, self-appointing and self-perpetuating odious organism's foreign-service corp's carefully cloned and clueless collectivistic and communistic clots.

And now, more than two million combined casualties and refugees later all we can do is pray and trust that, this late in the day, our sovereign border breaching and home defenses ignoring administration's most recent General will be able to pull off what McArthur did -- and Patton did not.

The War on Islamo-fascism's Iraq Phase..
.... was, in a matter of a few days, won by America's unbeatable Military, without a single hoest Iraqi running to a foreign land and becoming a refugee.

And then the very same war was then lost by America's two most tenuously-perfidious enemies: the vast criminal enterprises that collectively call themselves the "Democrats" and by Foggy Bottom's Socialist-International-directed and sychophantically servile basta*d offspring of the Soviet-agents, Alger Hiss et al-descended Brahmanas and by that self-annointing, self-appointing and self-perpetuating odious organism's foreign-service corp's carefully cloned and clueless collectivistic and communistic clots.

And now, more than two million combined casualties and refugees later all we can do is pray and trust that, this late in the day, our sovereign border breaching and home defenses ignoring administration's most recent General will be able to pull off what McArthur did -- and Patton did not.

Some wasted bandwith
I hate to break the news to you Paulettes and Bachananites but since the invention of air power and missiles isolationism no longer works, if it ever did at all. Besides that, it isn’t isolationism that got us here to begin with. Both of the aforementioned politicians say that 9/11 happened because of out foreign policy, primarily our support for Israel. I’ve got some news for you on that score also, Israel is the ONLY country in the Middle East with a functioning democracy, the only country that isn’t stuck in the 6th century politically and scientifically, and the only country that doesn’t behead people for religious and civil infractions. So when a group of Neanderthal thugs tells us that we can not do business with them what are we supposed to do? Are we supposed to bow down and say yes Mr. Muslim, we acquiesce to your demands, we will let you dictate our foreign policy so you will not attack us. To do this is to give up national sovereignty just like giving up our borders that you don’t support.

To you communist Democraps who froth at the mouth every time you see or hear Bush, there is no advice for you. You are beyond help and should be institutionalized because you are a danger to the public and yourselves.

What?
I'm disappointed that this article didn't discuss the ability to establish a higher education system in Iraq. Isn't that what the guy was sent there to do?

Anthony
Wow, you gave my goose bumps the way you took Dr. Sowell to task on this article. The way you impressively countered each of his points with overwhelming logic and use of facts was quit impressive.

Normally, liberals read the articles, realize their lifelong beliefs and ideology are a joke, and are left with nothing but a pathetic attempt to debate conservative columnists by saying “blah, blah, blah” and accuse them of writing “crap”.

Sum it up
So if this analysis is correct and I think it is. Then the failure if you will was really the state departments! We could have easily declared martial law and then allowed the existing infrastructure/ local governments to function under our control until such time that the Iraq's came up to speed. Once everything degraded to lawlessness the proverbal fit hit the shan. OK so is it too late? Petraeus seems to have his act together what about the state dept??

vic
You raise a fascinating point and that is governing effectively. Everyone is not equal in talents in foresight. Successful leaders are those who can predict what will make the society sustain itself and become stronger. Stronger might mean economic growth and education. Inventors bring forth new possibilites like the steam engine which change the nature of things and leaders, good ones, see the possiblities of such. So govt encouragement of railroads and canals is one of examples of that in our history.
The problem is getting good leaders in a situation where, as in the situation you describe, the public is apathetic, not knowledgeable of the consequences and hence are not prepared to get excited about public expenditures. And hence, those most aggressive carry the day with a minority. Most people are concerned with their daily life. They don't have an involvement with govt because they have little effect on govt. No longer are their town councils where imposing a tax for this and that brings forth everyone in small community to the fore who can evaluate how this effects them and their town. A state or a county is just too big; hence the citizens of that state cannot be engaged.
It is bigness that is the problem which leads to feeling of impotence or just not feeling impacted immediately. Hence, special interest groups carry the day. It is an endemic problem.


vic 2
It is interesting to see how an issue such as the recent immigration business grabbed people. IT was simple. The graphics showing the negative side of illegal immigration were simple. The headlines at time of illegals committing crimes were simple. The in your face attitude shown in pictures of illegal action groups were simple. But the kind of issues you describe in your post don't impact. What the heck is another penny on sales tax. The voter is not impacted by some sort of immediacy; hence, over the years it creeps up and no sudden awareness.

I can't see a solution. It is the nature of society when it gets to big that the individual citizen is both impotent or so feels so and is not impacted in his thinking by the long range consequences; hence, special interest groups who may be not wise in the policies they pursue win the day.

The Economist
also essentially argues the same thing. They don't trust Bush or Petraeus too much, but they think that leaving now is likely to be somewhat worse than staying a little longer.

Where is Sowell's Sense?
I can't believe Thomas Sowell of all people really believes that there can still be a happy ending to this whole affair. That if we just keep killing "outside terrorists", eventually the violence will end and the Iraqis will accept a Westernized, democratic, U.S.-friendly government. This is the height of Hayek's "fatal conceit". How much more tragedy will it take to make him see the folly in this?

Len
Can’t see a solution? Actually all situations have a "resolution". The resolution may not be a welcomed "solution", but it is always a resolution. A lot of people are saying that the politics are the most polarized that they have been since 1861 and we know what happened there. At that time it was a North/South divide with the South feeling marginalized by the politicians of the North. The media, as well as some of out liberal idiots here, try to put forth some kind of a Red State/Blue State divide now that would have a conflict between the NE and West against the South and Midwest (flyover country). In actuality the situation is much more complex than that. In reality there are no "Red States and Blue States" and the divide is between the liberals and conservatives. If you look at the election history on a county by county basis what you find is that the liberals get the large urban areas and the conservatives get the rural areas. The suburban areas are pink/purple as they are split and there is where the election turns. My feeling is that things will continue in the way that they are going until one of two things occurs. Scenario one: The people who believe that the liberals with the aid of a liberal Supreme Court have abandoned the Constitution and have illegally usurped authority not provided (this is what the South believed in 1861) will instigate a revolution that results is massive bloodshed with an indeterminate outcome. Scenario two: The country continues to drift left into socialism and communism. What is left of the conservatives leave the country for Australia and other places. The U.S. will enter a phase in history much like the old Soviet Union with bankrupt economic policies, mass starvation, bread lines, and politically correct gulags for the dissidents. This will last for 75 to 100 years until another revolution occurs or until the country is defeated from the outside and becomes a satellite nation.

Hagar
Actually, in a 180 degree shift from previous practice, the Pentagon was put in charge of rebuilding Iraq rather than the State Dept. That was one of the most fatal flaws in post invasion policy.

vic has it exactly right
Are we allowed to pick and choose which countries we support or do we let Al Queda/Iran/Whomever tell us?

Muslims have more freedoms in Israel than they do in neighboring Syria, Jordan or Palestine.

So I guess the real issue is Antisemitism which is a *required* element of fundamentalism Islam.

Pick a side.

We needed 500,000 troops in the first...
phase, as requested by the Joint Chiefs. Rumsfeld cut that number to 125,000, later increased a little. Trying to prosecute a war on the cheap.
If we had had the necessary troops, we could have maintained control of one area, while we subdued the next. This was the Marine's strategy for Vietnam (based on actual experience) that the Army command would not accept.
Of course, we probably needed 750,000 troops in Vietnam to accomplish that strategy. So... maybe in Iraq, as in Vietnam, the unavailability of sufficient troops limited the strategy.
The reality (from what I've read from in-country reports) is that Sunnis and Shias are working together to counter al Quida - in Anbar and other previous hotbeds.
The increased troop levels from the Surge, and the length of our stay, have allowed the Iraqi people the time and space to recognize for themselves that al Quida's terrorism is not in their best interests.
THAT is what it is all really about - Iraqi self-determination, based on sufficient exposure to the other side's brutality. And, it's happening MUCH sooner than I would have dreamed.

Chris

vic
I don't think the average person thinks about abstract things like the consitition. What has happenned here is strictly socialism in the sense of ownership, but entitlements which involve the transfer of wealth. It is what we see in Europe and most sucessfully in homogenous countries like the nordic ones. But, I have noticed recently that in those countries are in swing back from the extreme; by extreme I mean rewarding sloth at the expense of those who work hard. They have responded to the data or their own experience and are adjusting to such.
A welfare state is inevitable. The issue is how to keep in check, So for egs, private retirement accounts regulated by the govt instead of present ponzi scheme which shifts burden on to younger people to support older ones.
In other words, one can have a welfare orientation and do it intelligently with a mininmum of transfer payments.
You mention Australia; there is lots of room there; but they are also a welfare state with govt programs; govt involvment in medical stuff. IF too many migrated there, they would have the same problems.

Repitition
So much over so little. We fight today to establish the security we failed to establish from the outset. We fight to give a government time to form, given that those who run it had no experience in running governments due to the fact that Saddam killed or exiled anyone with the remotest idea that they might be able to govern. We fight today because we stripped the bureaucracy of experienced people - and there were no replacements available because they had no experience - so it became corrupted with inexperienced and therefore incompetent people. We fight today because we disbanded the Army and most of the Senior police officers, and we had no one to replace them with experience - so militia's and irregulars filled the void.

The Shia's did pretty much the only thing they could do - which is turn to the tribal leaders, clerics, and exiles who had the support of the clerics. And, this led to a theocracy because that was the only experience these people had.

It comes down to two realities. We eliminated the experienced people in every branch of government, and we didn't have remotely enough forces of our own to provide the security in the absence of those experienced people.

So - we pay the price. In four months, the debate will rise up again. After all, the government we wanted is not the one we have - nor the one we'll get. We will begin to draw the forces down to pre-surge levels regardless of the political situation because we have no reserves.




Len
We already have a welfare state, the question is when will we lose private property?

Anyway, I have to go. Last post.

Vic
I agree with your disturbing, but very possible prediction for our near future. Either way, we are going to owe our previous generations and our grandchildren some serious explanations and apologies. Sort of sad to know I may be a member of the American generation that will become infamous in history and blamed for letting this great country self-destruct.

MrBananaGrabber
Your idea of "Break things and turn out the lights" was tried in Europe (WWI) with the resultant vacuum that lead to the rise of the Third Reich. Didn't work then, I don't see how you'd think it would work now.

Mosul
Dr. Sowell, I understand how Petraus did a fine job in Mosul. However, after he left, wouldn't those Baathists he kept on the job because they knew how to adminster still be on the job in his absence?

If they were the reason Mosul was relatively stable, wouldn't their presence after he left ensure the continued stability of Mosul?

How is it that Mosul was the site of attacks on our armed forces if the Baathists contributed to stability and security?

Jack
You need to reread the article. The political piece in Mosul worked because Petraeus allowed the experienced city officials to remain in their positions. Petraeus and the military only provided the required security.

You missed a key line in the article, "Then, after control of Mosul was passed on to others..."

First its order, stupid
Not you people, just using a tired old slogan for effect!

While the concept of "order first" was abused by the likes of Stalin, Hitler and the Chicoms, it
is the oxygen of any workable system.

America has not won a war since Japan, the last great effort run by an orderly military. Even
military order and dicipline have never been as
unmuddled since. (Yes, Foggy Bottom is largely
responsible for the wars we declined to win).

Even in cases of great civil strife the last, and ultimately successful resort, is Martial Law. To you in Rio Linda, as Rush would say, thats where you clarify the chain of command by getting rid of the thousands of ameteur politicians and bureaucrats whos only contribution is to muddle the mission. More recently this group has come to be dominated
by Lawyers, God help us! (Will we ever win again?)

To quote a Marine Colonel I met at MIT, Command and Staff School, "Authority is the Right to Make Mistakes"! Being loaded down with responsibility will not cut it.

I remind you again that I am not the only person to recognize this. See Stormin Norman and Tommy Franks leave at the speed of light as soon as the clear military missions in Iraq were ended?
They understood all to well what would happen under our present system and left before their
unsullied reputations coule be ruined by things they could forsee. Vietnam come to mind?

First its order, stupid
Not you people, just using a tired old slogan for effect!

While the concept of "order first" was abused by the likes of Stalin, Hitler and the Chicoms, it
is the oxygen of any workable system.

America has not won a war since Japan, the last great effort run by an orderly military. Even
military order and dicipline have never been as
unmuddled since. (Yes, Foggy Bottom is largely
responsible for the wars we declined to win).

Even in cases of great civil strife the last, and ultimately successful resort, is Martial Law. To you in Rio Linda, as Rush would say, thats where you clarify the chain of command by getting rid of the thousands of ameteur politicians and bureaucrats whos only contribution is to muddle the mission. More recently this group has come to be dominated
by Lawyers, God help us! (Will we ever win again?)

To quote a Marine Colonel I met at MIT, Command and Staff School, "Authority is the Right to Make Mistakes"! Being loaded down with responsibility will not cut it.

I remind you again that I am not the only person to recognize this. See Stormin Norman and Tommy Franks leave at the speed of light as soon as the clear military missions in Iraq were ended?
They understood all to well what would happen under our present system and left before their
unsullied reputations coule be ruined by things they could forsee. Vietnam come to mind?

It does no good to look back at mistakes
Hindsight is 20/20. It is SO easy to see what SHOULD have been done; to castigate the people who didn't do it; to pick up your toys and go home.

But a reasonable backward glance can also provide a roadmap for the future when similar circumstances are encountered. Unfortunately, the attacks on 911 have assured plenty more similar opportunities in the future.

Good article... sounds like a good book...

Len/Icedog
I'm back. Had to get another computer as the keyboard on the laptop I was using started falling apart. Unfortunately there will be breaks between responses on this one.

I will not owe an apology as I have fought these socialist/communist slugs all the way and I have voted in every election there was since I became eligible to vote. The problem has been that the communists took over the schools and the media. FDR and LBJ taught them that they did not have to be responsible for their actions and the government owed them a living. By the time that they were old enough to see the result of their poor choices it was too late.

There is only one thing that will turn this mess around before it collapses and that is to restore a Supreme Court that doesn’t believe that the Constitution is made out of rubber and can be stretched to fit what ever outcome they desire. A court that believes Stare Decisis belongs in the common law where it originated and that English is a simple language that says what it means. A document that has no penumbras and emanations.

Alas, that is not likely to happen as long as the “urbanites” continue to return people like Ted the Swimmer and Chuckie Cheese to office.

vic
I think you are looking at SCOTUS as the devil. I think it is more important that you have good state and local govt. One man can make a difference in good govt as we saw in NY, a hotbed of lberalsim, where Rudy instituted reforms and changed the city. Even decisions such as Kelo can be overcome at the state level by constitional amendment or if already there, legislatures to safeguard private property; if you cant have responsible local and state govts, it is wishful thinking that the court per se will improve things.

Another efs is that southern govts are less controlled by unions; hence, they done fairly well in attracting old and new industries.

Bremer and state depart crew
thought everyone would lay down their arms and welcome us unconditionally. After all, that's what soldiers did when we crossed from Kuwait into Iraq in 1991. But we never went to Baghdad then.

Bremer allowed weeks of riot and chaos after the Iraqi army capitulated. He didn't want to use the US services for policing. We did it in both Germany and Japan after WW II, but he seemed uninformed ans prob. got no leadershp from Powell.

The Bremer demobiklized the Iraqi army without pay, failed to secure weapons deports, and allowed unemployed, indigent young men run around the country with no investment in changing Iraq into a peaceful nation.

He discharged the police and gov't bureacracies of the people who could make the nation run from day to day because they were Baathists of Saddam's old party, but there was no one yet to replace them as mailmen and teachers and bankers and telephone linemen,

Now, there is a real plan for eliminating pockets of violence, the sheiks of the South want to get rid of insurgents and murderers. The Kurds have already settled in to economic success through oil production and contracts. Only the center of the country needs to collect itself and realize the only people who make this nation for the people of Iraq those people themselves

Len
The problem is that for the past 75 years the Scotus has been the devil. Take Kelo since you mentioned it. Clearly this is case that has relied on the insidious creep of Stare Decisis to move from “public use” to “public benefit” which is an open ended phrase. If we are going to apply the 5th Amendment to the States, as other Amendments have been applied under the mantle of “freedom”, then the taking under Kelo was clearly unconstitutional. If we were going to call it OK under a guise of federalism, then that would be OK if we returned the rest of the amendments to the guise of federalism. The court managed to get by under another great stretch by doing neither. As case law now goes, increasing tax revenue is a legitimate use by government in a taking.

Dr. Sowell
I'm going to get this book. It appears someone else has seen what I have.

However, sooner or later Muslims are going to have to learn respect for eachother, and respect for others in the world they share. It appears they are learning what happens when even the pretext of respect is stripped away. Chaos. anarchy, death.

The Sowell con
I find it ironic that the title of this column is "Mugged by reality." But who has been mugged by reality? It surely isn't those who have been against this war from the start -- real patriots like Pat Buchanan, Ron Paul, Thomas Fleming, William Lind, Scott Ritter and others.

Everything currently happening in Iraq -- the dominance of the Shiite political parties and the sectarian conflict -- was entirely predictable. If Mr. Sowell is now conceding that he has been "mugged by reality" that suggests that when he was supporting this war he was estranged from reality. I don't disagree -- the people who supported this war were definitely not connected to reality. They were delusional.

But what is Mr. Sowell's point? That we can reignite Iraq's civic institutions to make it a harmonious nation once again? Before the war, Mr. Sowell dismissed the idea that we should devote military resources to nation building.

Like Ron Paul said, those who want us to "stay the course in Iraq" are just trying to save face. If we leave Iraq now it will be a PR disaster for them. They will have their names permanently attached to the biggest debacle in American history. Sowell doesn't want this reputation, so he continues to support the war in Iraq. At least we know what his priorities are: his face is important than American lives.


Gabby, Get a Life, will you?
quoth Gabby: "Shame on you Dr. Sowell! Why don't you get your priorities in order?"

Dr. Sowell dedicated something like a half dozen columns in a row to the problem of illegal aliens.

Spend ten minutes of research in the archives before you spout off your keyboard again.

The problem of illegal aliens is not the ONLY problem we face as a nation, and it's HUGELY debatable whether it's even in the top five.

Dr. Sowell's priorities are exactly where he wants them to be.

"Your near silence about the invasion of our borders by foreign barbarians who come from a criminal culture, ..."

Then conservatives get all bent out of shape when someone accuses them of racism. This is the kind of attitude that engenders such accusations.

According to American Civil Literacy
we are an indirect democracy as established by the Constitution. I took the civics test that is given to college students and posted on the isi.org website. Guess what! Question 3 is: The Constitution of the United States established what form of government?
A. Direct democracy
B. Populism
C. Indirect democracy
D. Oligarchy
E. Aristocracy

The correct answer is C.

Red Tooth
Like Ron Paul said, those who want us to "stay the course in Iraq" are just trying to save face.

Forget about saving face. The United States has an ethical and moral responsibility to remain in Iraq.

Warren Small:

You're lying when you say Bush lied. You're lying when you say the war is for oil. Tell the truth. This isn't a matter for belief. I watched the whole thing go down. I remember it all. You're making stuff up and it's got to stop. Get a grip, man. Life is too short to be creating such a miserable reality. Think happy thoughts or pretend to be a victim of the mean old conservatives with your miserable friends. That ought to cheer you up!

The correct answer is C.
Horse pucky

This Nation was established as a Republic.
You do not even list it as a choice, how commie can ya get?(smile)

Problem is we have lost the Republic, but it was set up as one,and people today do not even know the meaning of the word.


I wonder
How many troops we had in both Germany and Japan after WW2.

Also how many were left in Korea when the truce was called.

iraq
the only thing we are doing wrong is not killing enough ragheads.

Reality
We made two mistakes in WW II first by not dropping an A bomb on Germany, the second was not dropping an A bomb on Russia. We dropped those bombs on Japan, and that ended the war. Why did we have to drop 2 ? Japan didn't surrender after the first bomb, did they? "If" we had told the world "We are in power or else" there would have been a total difference in todays world. But Our government made friends immediately with the operating personnel of these nations that fought us, Italy was part of the Axis nations, what did we ever do to Italy? Nothing. Our politicians had the manpower to set up a total government control, and were dominantly operating every aspect of civilian control. We have not done that in Iraq, and we don't know how anymore I guess. We were a wonderful nation, but we were in China helping the Chinese fight Japan, we were arming England, to help fight Germany, and then wonder why the Axis attacked us.
Where is REALITY now? If you don't elect an independent in 2008, the Republicans and Democrats will give this nation away. Unlimited Illegal immigration, So. Calif is like Mexico with the crime to match. This week a 3 week old baby was shot on the streets in the Mc Arthur Park area. Total control of most area's of Los Angeles by gangs. The cops find themselves under attack on phony calls. We do not have civilization in Los Angeles. WE have WAR. What are we going to do?
I thing I'll star making White Flags to sell, so all of you can admit surrender. If not surrender then by god, you'de better elect me in 2008, because I've got the guts to stop this crap.
http://www.DonCordellforPresident.com will do it. Lets have some patriotism in this nation, don't let them sell us out to the United Nations. It's time for REALITY folks. Our nation is in trouble, save it.

It's a business....
The WAR is THE business in Iraq!

Yes, just like I saw first hand in Vietnam. Many black markets, large oil diversions at point of delivery, unemployed young men paid to dig the bomb holes and do other dirty deeds, high officials on the take and on and on.....

They need another strong man at the top to keep order, but hopefully OUR strong man. Otherwize it will always be like a monkey screwing a football as they "play" country.
Sign Up to Post Your CommentsSign Up to Post Your Comments
If you are already registered, click here to login. Otherwise, please take a few seconds to register with Townhall.com. Once you sign up, you’ll be able to post your comments immediately, use the action center, get podcasts, and more!
Note: Fields marked with a red asterisk (*) are required.
Salutation:
First Name:
*
Last Name:
*
Email:
*
Nickname:
*
Note: Nick name will be shown when you post comments.
Address 1:
*
Address 2:
City:
*
State:
*
Zip:
*
Phone:
      
Your daily must-read of conservative columns, cartoons and news. Coulter, Sowell, Krauthammer and more.
(Bi-Weekly) We highlight the best opportunities from our partners for surveys, action items and more.